Manitoba Hansard — 3 March 1960 (Sitting 33, 26th Legislature, 2nd Session)

26-2-33

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Volume lV No, 33 March 3, 1960 2nd Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. s. Evans. Queen�s Printer for the Province of Manitoba� Winnipeg

....r=- ·· DAILY INDEX Thursday, March 3, 1960, 2:30P.M. Report: Law Ame ndments (Mr. Lyon) . . . . . . . • • . . • • • . • • • • • • . • • • • • • • . . • . . • . . • • • • . • • . 1163 liitrOciUction of Bills: Nos. ll1, 109, 110, 108, 100 . • • • • • • • • • • . . . . . . . • . . • . • • • • . • • • • 1163 Bill 58 re Mechanics' Liens (Mr. Lyon): 2nd Reading . • . . • • • • . • . • • . . . . . • • . • • • • • • . • • • 1166 Report: Special Select Committee, re Rules: Mr.

Lyon ••..•......• .• ...... ·-........ 1166 Corriiirlttee of Supply: Health and Public Welfare Old Age Assistance and Blind Persons . . • . • . • . . • . . • • • • • • • . . • . • • . • . . • • . . • . • . • • . 1167 Disability Allowances . . . . • . • . . • • • • • . • . . • • • . • • • • • • • • • . • • • • • • • . . . • • . • • • • . . . . 1170 Mines and Natural Resources: Administration . • . • • • • • . • • . . • • • •. • • • • • • . . • • • . • • • 1171

THE LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Thursday, March 3rd, 1960 Opening prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Attorney-General) (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the second report of the Select Standing Committee on Law Amendments. MR. CLERK: Your Select Standing Committee qn Law Amendments beg leave to present the following as their second report. Your committee has considered Bills Nos. 16,

an Act to amend the Registry Act; 56,

an Act to amend the Greater Winnipeg Sanitary Act; 64,

an Act to amend the Health Services Act; 65,

an Act to amend the Law Societies Act; 66,

an Act to provide for the Education of Psychiatric Nurses; 68,

an Act to amend the Ta.'\icabs Act; and has agreed to report the same without amendment. Your committee has also considered· Bills Nos. 15,

an Act to amend the Judgments Act; 45,

an Act to amend the Well Drilling Act; 53,

an Act to amend the Highway Traffic Act No. 1; and has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources that the report of the Committee be received. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Notice of Motion Introduction of Bills The Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I move seconded by the Hqnourable the Attorney-General that leave be given to introduce a Bill No. 111,

an Act to amend the Town Planning Act and that the same be now received and read a first time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon. MR. R. 0. LISSAMAN (Brandon): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honour able Member from Morris that leave be given to introduce a Bill No. 109,

an Act to amend the Brandon Charter, and that same be now received and read a first time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Lansdowne. MR. M. E. McKELLAR (Souris-Lansdowne): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honourable Member for Minnedosa that leave be given to introduce a Bill No. 110,

an Act to amend the Manitoba School Trustees Association Act and the same be now received and read a first time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. A. H. CORBETT (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie that leave be given to introduce a Bill No. 108,

an Act to validate By�law No. 1959 of the Town of Swan River, By-law No. 1628 of the Rural Mun.i.cipality of Swan River, By-law No. 127 of the Village of Benito, By-law No. 1349 of the Rural Municipality of Minitonas; and that the same be now received and read a first time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Committee of the Whole House. HON. STEW ART E. McLEAN (Minister of Education) (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I move seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health and Welfare that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider the following proposed resolution standing on the Order Paper in my name. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The House do now resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole House and would the Honourable Member for St. Matthews please take the Chair . MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, His Honour the Lieuten ant-Governor having been informed March 3rd, 1960 Page 1163

(Mr. McLean, cont'd) .•.. of the subject matter of the proposed resolution recommends it to the Houae. MR . CHAIRMAN: RESOLVED that it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend the Sc�10ol Districts Debenture Interest Guarantee Act by providing that the Provincial Treasurer, on behalf of Her Majesty in right of the province, may guarantee the payment of all interest payable on moneys borrowed by a school area or a school division on the security of debentures issued thereby. MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, the .......

Act refers, provides authority for guarantee- ing the payment of interest for school districts and the proposed amendmen t is simply to add school divisions and school areas to make it certain that the same authority exists with respect to them. MR . RUSSELL J?AULLEY (Leader of the CCF} (Radisson): Mr. Chairmail, I would like to ask the Honourable the Minister a question.

It may be that I have been misinformed, but one of the trustees of one of the school districts in the Greater Winnipeg area drew to my attention that it appeared as though the school district of which he is a trustee had entered generally into an agreement with a financial institution for a debenture issue and the interest rate thereon was less than the general rate applicable by the province. Just by illustration, ifthe province's guarantee was to a maximum of 5 3/4%, in this case it was 5 1/2 %.

And he drew to my attention that he thought that the department would not guarantee the interest payments because of the fact that the interest rate that they were able to obtain was less than that that the province would guarantee. Can the Minister have any comment on that, whether that is so, or whether it's misinformation? MR . M cLEAN: Mr. Chairman, that would be correct.

The guarantee of the province is only given to insure that the district, or division as the case may be, can market its bonds at a rate of interest not exceeding the amount at which the level is set by the Province of Manitoba, and that if the district or division is able to market its debentures at an interest 1·ate less than the maximum amount, then that is considered to be evidence that they do not require the guarantee of the province. MR . PAULLEY: Then they in that case, providing they couldn't --- as I understand it, Mr.

Chairman, this particular case, then the company that was prepared at that time to enter into an agreement at the lesser amount of interest rate, unless they had the guarantee of the government, would not pursue and continue and take up the debentures, :L'ld as I und!:m:rtand it in this particular case, a new issue of debentures at the rate set by the province had to be issued in order to obtain the guarantee.

Now it seems to me that if that is the c::rse, th::tt tb.s government should give the consideration to the guaranteeing of the interest rate at the lesser amount to the school district because then they could take the advantage of the lesser arr.o,mt.

And now I un:lerstand in this particular case, that because they couldn't get the provincial guarantee at the lesser amount that the debentures had to be re-issued at the then prevail.ir.g rate; consequently the school district had to pay, I believe it was a quarter of one per�ent extra interest, to the company who was prepared to issue the debentures simply because of the fact that the company would not accept the guarantee of the school district itself even though they were prepared to give a lesser amount.

And I think it is something of vital concer11 that if the explanation of the Minister as I understand it is correct, that possibly our legislation should be changed so that that rate of interest becomes a maximUm under which the province will guarantee the payment of interest and if a school district can obtain it at a lesser amount then the government should be prepared to guarantee that lesser amount. MR . McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member has a very good point and there are certain problems-connected with this matter of guar:mtees.

We are looking at this whole policy and the point which he makes is one to which we are giving -very careful con�:! deration. It would not, however, require any amendment to the Act since under the terms of the Act as I recall it, the Provincial Treasurer may set the :rates at which guaxantees will be given and that is a matter of operation of the Act, but I'm certainly glad to have the views of the Honour.:.. able Member with respect to it. MR. PAULLEY: I thank the Minister, Mr.

Chairman, for that, and I urge the Provincial Treasurer to take this under - shall I call it immediate advisement, in order that the same situation will not prevail. Page 1164 March 3rd, 1960

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolution be adopted? (Members: Aye). Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. , MR. W. G. MARTIN (st. Matthews): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Wh ole house have adopted certain resolutions and directed me to report the same and ask leave to sit again. Mr. Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Vital that the report of the Committee be received. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. McLEAN: Mr. Speaker, I move seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health and Welfare that leave be given to introduce a Bill No. 100,

an Act to amend the School District Debenture Interest Guarantee Act, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Order.s of the Day. HON. DUFF ROBIJN (Premier) (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I wonder if I may be permitted to make an announcement regarding the business of the House next week.

I would like to suggest Sir, that we agree that on Tuesday of next week we devote ' ' the whole day if necessary, in Committee of Law Amendments to hearing the representations that will be made in respect to the Metro bill. I h ave had some conversations with leading members of the House on this point and I understand that it is agreeable, gene rally speaking, that we should do that. Of course if the Metro hearings don't take the whole day we can come back into the House, but I rather expect they will.

If there is consent, then we can regard the matter as settled, otherwise I'll give Notice of Motion now in respect of the matter. Incident ally, perhaps it would be advisable also to say that it would be the hope of the government to devote the beginning at least, of Thursday 10 o'clock, Law Amendments, for a consideration of the Hutterite Bills. That would enable people who live outside the immediate vicinity and who may wish to come and speak to these Bills to have notice that on Thursday they will be before the Law Amendments and we will be glad to hear representations then. MR. D. L.

CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition) (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, as far as our group is concerned we are quite willing to ngree to the plan that has been suggested by the First Minister.

As a matter of fact, I think it is a good idea that we should attempt to give notice to the public especially on a Bill where so many of the municipalities, organizations and individuals may be interested as the so-called Metro Bill as to just when hearings will be held with regard to it, and consequently I was only too glad when the Honourable the First Minister checked this matter with me to say that we would agree in spite of the fact that we recognize that that is private members' day. And private members' business, as anyone can see by the Order Paper, has quite a bit remaining to be done.

However, Tuesday is the traditional Law Amendments Committee day and I think there's great advantage that first the public should lmow when tills Bill ·.vill be coming up with sufficient time allocated to it for all representations if possible be made at that time, because I think it's advantageous that the various delegations representing municipalities and others who are making representation should hear one another and think it best meets their convenience that we set aside a whole day if necessary.

So we were glad to agree to that under those circumstances, and because of the other reasons that I have mentioned on other occasions I think it has been the practice of the House and one that should continue tlll'.t regardless of the position of the Order Paper when prorogation takes place that all business remaining on the Order Paper shall be dealt with.

And I think it is good too, that the First lVIinister proposed at the Committee this morning and in the House this after noon, g-Ive some publicit"J to the intentions of the House in this regard, so that all people shall have due and timely notice of both of these important matters that are coming up for discussion.

I understand from what he said, and it w:l.s mentioned in Committee this morning, that the Bills dealing vlith the incorporation of certain of the Hutterian Brethren will be considered on Thursday morning, 2nd that will give all folks who want to be heard o:n those Bills as well, the opportunity of planning their presence here if they wish to do so. So, Mr. Speaker, we're quite 'Nilling tQ agree ---just another evidence of the co-operation t:hat good suggestions always 1·eceive from this side of the House. At least from this group in the House. 1VIR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I'm glad the Honourable Leader of the Opposition wasn't talking for our group because we're always co-operative, and I might say apropos of that, that the First Minister was in touch with me this morning and we of our group agree with this. At , J.14.arch 3rd, 1960 Page 1165

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) ...• first I had some reservations, it being private members' day, but on very rapid reflection I appreciated the desire of the government to facilitate the widest possible coverage and hearings on this very important Metro Bill, and as far as our group is concerned, Mr. Speaker, we agree most heartily and most co-operatively. MR . ARTHUR E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I ' would like to direct the attention of the House to the gallery on your right. Seated there are twenty-six Grade VI pupils of Centennial School in West Kildonan.

With them is their teacher Miss B. Larter, and I hope their visit here this afternoon will be both interesting and enjoyable. MR . W. B. SCARTH (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like to direct the attention of the House to page 1115 of Hansard wherein I am reported to have said in referring to the address of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, that his address was entirely free of brass. Sir, being a conscientious soul, I never make any statement which I do not believe, and I would not want the House to think that I had gone that far.

But what I did say was that his address was entirely free of "bias". MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I would like, by the le11ve of the House, to propose the following motion. Resolved that the name of Mr. Hawryluk be stricken from the Committee on Law Amendments and the name of Mr. Peters be substituted thereupon. MR. SPEAKER: By leave of the House the Honourable Leader of the CCF submits the following motion.

Moved by the Honourable Leader of the CCF, seconded by the Honourable Member for Seven Oa ks, resolved that the name of Mr; Hawryluk be stricken from the Committee on Law Amendments and the name of Mr. Peters substituted. Does the Honourable Member have leave of the House? i.vrr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the pay. Second reading of Bill No. 58. The Honourable the Attorney-General. MR. LYON presented Bill No. 58,

an Act to amend the Mechanics' Liens Act , for second reading. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR . LYON: I might just say one word in respect to this Bill, Mr. Speaker. I think the explanatory note pretty well covers the principle. The

section that is proposed here will permit, as the e:x-planatory note explains, will permit holdbacks to be paid out after the con clusion of 60 days from the completion of a contract. I might just add for the benefit of mem bers of the· House who are interested in this, that this

section was copied pretty well from the Ontario Mechanics' Liens Act where this provision has been in effect, I think; since 1952, and we can go into more detail at the Committee stage, but I think that is sufficient to cover the principle of the matter. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Proposed resolution standing in the name of the Honourable Attorney General. The Honourable Attorney-General. MR . LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I beg tQ-:tnove, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of JYiines and Natural Resources, resolved that this House doth concur in the report of the Special Select Committee appointed by this House on the 20th day of January, 1960, to consider Rules 9, 27 and 24 --I think that should be 34 -- and such other rules as the Committee may decide to review and which report was tabled in the Legislative Assembly on the 1st day of March 1960. I might add Sir, tabled by myself on your behalf as Mr. Chairman. r..m.

SPEAKER: Moved by the Honourable the Attorney-General, seconded by the Honour able the Minister of l'llines and Natural Resources, resolved that this House doth concur in the report of the Special Select Committee appointed by this House on the 20th day of January, 1960, to consider Rules 9, 27 and 34 and such other .rules as the Committee may decide to review and which report was tabled in the Legislative Assembly on the 1st day of March 1960. Are you ready for the question? · · :MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I don't intend to take up the time of the House with a long dissertation in explanation of the report of the Committee. I think that the report was circulated two days ago and members of the House have had sufficient time to absorb :tnost of its contents. I think there are specific rules that might be mentioned very briefly in passing and I will attempt Page 1166 March 3rd, 1960

(Mr. Lyon, cont' d) •••.••• to do that as shor'"J.y and as factually as I can. With respect to Rule 9 which was mentioned in the original motion proposing this Comm ittee, members of the House will see that the Committee has proposed that the Chairman, the Deputy Speaker of the House, shall be appointed at the begi.fuling of each session and shall be elected annually, that is, at the beginning of each session of the House, during the currency of the sittings of the House. With respect to Rule No. 27, that was the rule with respect to adjournment of the House to discuss matters of urgent public importance.

The House will notice, Mr. Speaker, that the" main change there has been to insert the words "and of urgent public importance" in the body of, I think it is subsection (3) of Rule 27 as we now have it. And in addition there has been one further addition to Rule 27, namely the addition of 5 (

a) under Rule 27: "Not more than one such motion can be made at the same sitting." Now with respect to Rule 34, again it was pretty well self-explanatory. This deals with the length of time to be devoted to the Speech from the Throne. The House can see the changes that have been recommended there. Seven days will be devoted to the Speech from the Throne, at least that is the recommendation of the Committee. On the fourth day if a sub-amendment is under consideration then 30 minutes before the ordinary time of daily adjournment the vote will take place.

On the sixth day if the main amendment is under consideration then the vote will take place 30 minutes before the ordinary time of daily adjournment. And on the seventh day unless the debate has been prev iously concluded every question necessary to dispose of the main motion will be put 30 minutes before the ordinary time of daily adjournment. Now there are a number of other amendments which have been suggested by the Committee. I think they would be too long to go into in detail. As I have suggested before, they are made fairly clear by the report of the Committee. I might just say at this time, Mr.

Speaker, that serving under your Chairmanship and with the membership of the Committee, it was most gratifying work, I think, for all members of the Committee to participate in this particular effort. There was a great deal of co-operation from all sides -- representatives of all sides of the House. I think the Committee worked at good speed and has accomplished a good work ma.'llike job with respect to our rules which I hope will stand U$ in good stead for a good m�mbar of years.

And I think thanks arc due to the members of the Committee for the time and the intelligent debate that was contributed to this review of the rules during the seven meetings that the Committee held. With those few comments, Sir, I would commend the passage of this report to the House. lVIR. SPEAKEF.; Are you ready for the question? MR. E. PREFONTAL'lE {Carillon): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. George that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR , SPEAKER: Committee of Supply. r.rn. ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health and Public Welfare that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a ColX\mittee to consider of the supply to be granted to" Her Majesty. MR . SPEAKER: Would the Honourable Member for st. Matthews please take the Chair. MR . CHAIRMAN: Department 8 (3) (b)

(1) Salaries. Passed. M:R. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, ....• •. , .• number of salaries there on that section1 would the Minister give them to us? Yes, and also-- well that's the only one. HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Health and Public Welfare) (Gimli): Under {b) )1)? MR . P�ULLEY: Yes. MR . JOHNSON (Gimli): 41 is the establishment this year, since the reorganization of the pensions branch. We had estimated last year, if you recall, 49 was the positions provided "in last year's estimates. At the present time there are 44 on the staff at the present time.

I made reference to thls previously where we -- for instance in the Pension Branch now we have the chairman, the two supervisors of allowance, a supervisor of administration. and accounting. We have in our establishment 18 welfare workers of whom we have 12. We have March 3rd, 1960 Page 1167

(Mr. Johnson·(Gimli) cont'd) ••.• • 10 clerical in miX estimates and we are now carrying 28, the idea being that as we take on more of the welfare worker or pension investigator type of person we can ease up on our clerical staff. Ideally when the reorganization is complete we intend to have 41 positions eventually. MR. M. A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr. Chairman, usually I say a few worcis under the.item "Old Age Pensions", but hoping that my resolution on the Order Paper will carry I am not going to spend time discussing increases at the moment.

But I would like to respectfully suggest that the Minister recommend to the Government at the earliest possible date of reducing the age limit of those pensioners under the means test. We know with the large unemployment, or with the serious unemployment situation now and has been for some time, that even young men cannot get a job. At the age of 60 now, very few are still working. The industries are trying to re place them by younger men. And the question is, between 60 ---what is he to do between 60 and 65?

We know of pecople, a lot of people, being supported by children who cannot them selves support their families. And something else in it, that a man could tell his wife's father that that he cannot support -- that he married her and not her father and the same thing could be said by the wife that she married him and she didn't marry his parents. However, every thing is being done in the meantime by the children that have no alternative or by friends and many of them suffer. Of course, they could go onto social welfare but that's another stigma when the public pays for it the same way.

Old age pension is bad enough; social welfare is considered real charity and many people wouldn't want to do it. Now the argument which applied years ago of setting the age of 65, can be used very, very effectively now of reducing the age to 60.

I believe we are not dealing with the estimated age of 65, but may I respectfully suggest that consideration be given to reduce the age to 60 and provide employment for the younger men who need the jobs more than the man of 60, and in this way, speaking from the taxpayer's point of view, he pays for the unemployment insurance where the younger men could obtain the positions and secondly that a man of 60 doesn't have to resign now but he is being fired. But assuming that those who are still at work in the railways and the other industries are still at work between 60 and 65 their jobs are not sure.

They are compelled to stay .• probably by the agreement with the unions. But the more security, minimum security, if old age pension be given to people of the age of 60, the more positions they could find for the younger men and also the fact there are many of the age of 60 who are being directly or indirectly dispensed from the services. MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make a comment on that; in that certainly I think that people under the age of 65 under our Social Allowances Act, who due to physical disability and so on are in need, may qualify for social allowance.

But I would humbly suggest that the Honourable Member from Inkster consider this, that under the new program with the health of the nation never better in the Province of Manitoba, that the govern ment may eventually consider raising the age limit to 70, along the same line of thinking. Let's put our efforts into keeping our older people active longer and certainly all the talk I hear in industry is that we want our people to remain active as long as possible.

I think that this is very important in view of the fact that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition may soon approach the time when he may qualify for this on a means test basis, he was telling me. However, I would certainly give the Honourable Member from Inkster•s thoughts every consideration in the :bture. MR. N. SHOEMAKER (Gladstone : Under (b) (3) the three million odd, -(Interjection)- Oh, I am sorry. MR. CHAIRMAN: (a)

(2) Passed. (3)? MR. SHOEMAKER: Under (3) (b) 3, 37 0. Is that ammmt all used to pay pensions to the 65 to 70 group or are there other items involved in that? MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): That's gross including some of our pensioners that have moved to other provinces, all old age assistahce, 3, 290 less our 50% reimburseme nt and less recover ies from other provinces where we have reciprocity. I might point out that this item is under $-15, 000 from last year and is simply a reduction based on the esti:;:nated case-load. It wasn't as high in '59-'60 as anticipated.

There will likely be an underexpenditure of about $65,000. It seemed ·wise to base the 160-'61 estimate on a somewhat lower case load rising from 5, 090 in April1960, to 5, 365 by March 161. This is our projection. Our case load in December '58 Page 1168 March 3rd, 1960

(Mr. Johnson (G imli) cont'd) •••.• incidentally was 4, 805. We expect that by April 160 it will be 5, 090. MR. CA:MPBELL: These were given in the review of activities that the Honourable the Minister furnishes for his department and I have looked at them before but I don't recall the number now. Would he be so kind as to put the number of pensioners under this vote on the record? MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): I was just saying, Mr. Chairman, in projecting these figures I haven't got my review with me. But as I say in December '58 the case load was 4, 805 and they expect by April of '60 the case load will be 5, 090. This is more people coming into this age group every year, :MR. CHAIRMAN:

(3) Passed.

(4) Passed. (

b) Passed. MR. A. J. REID (Kildonan): Mr. Chairman, (b} (4), Blind Allowance. I think under this Blind Persons Allowance, Mr. Chairman, I think we should try and do more. I see the amount this year and last year are the same. And actually the work for this and that, I am not famil iar with it or what they have actually done, but I'll give you a history of a couple in my con stituency. I have a blind couple in my constituency; both of them are blind and they got married and they've got three children now. And while the children were smaller they could make ends meet, but now the children have grown up.

The oldest girl is 16, the boy 12, and the one of 8 I believe, and their income is still fixed. And this girl, she is trying to go through school and eventually become a nurse. But under the set-up, the financial set-up that her parents have now, I doubt she will ever make it. I'll just give you, Mr. Chairman, what the family gets. $110 a month pension and $22 a month family allowance, that's $132 a month, times 12 gives a total of $1,584 and he is allowed to earn another $584. In other words he can't have more than an income of 2,168 -two thousand one hundred and sixty-eight dollars.

He had his hospital free; he had paid his own medical. And every year the inspector comes around and wants an itemized statement of every extra dollar he earns. Now, under the basic plan which we have now, I think, last year he didn't --now I believe he will be able to apply and get some assistance. Under the basic plan he is allowed $94 for food, $22 for clothing, $40 for rent, $7 for light and power, $15 for household and personal expenses, and $152 a year for fuel and $150 special needs which brL'lg a total of $2,418. So in this case, Mr.

Chairman, his basic --his financial resources are less than his basic requirements. So I don't think he'll have any trouble once he fills a form of getting any assistance. But this man, he doesn't want assistance. He is a carpenter by trade. He runs power machines, he makes window frames, he makas steps, he does all kinds of work. It is fabulous just to see him work; in fact, like Ripley says, believe it or not you have to see it to realize what a wonderful crafts man he is. .A_nd this man, what he wants to do is build up a business for the boy of 12 years old and eventually leave it to his boy.

But under these circumstances, Mr. Chairman, he can't do it because $584 is all he is allowed to earn. So I think what this province should do is consider ve.ry seriously - is supplement the blind pensioner's pension, but it is going to cost money so we can't do that. Now I have got an alternative, Mr. Chairman, that won't cost the province or Canada one cent. All we have to do is prevail on the Pension Board to abolish the means test for the blind people, and this man, he'll be able to help himself; he won't need any more help.

L11 fact within a year, if he could build up his business, a year or two, he won't even need the pension. He will be able to conduct his own business. But the way it is now, here is a man trying to help himself and he is honest enough to admit every penny he · makes, but a fellow comes down, he has a statement, and he is jeopardized for making a living for himself and his family. At the same time, his girl, instead of going ini;o a vocation which she will be of some use to the public, she may have to qmt school and go to work because the income that this man is just allowed to make, Mr.

Chairman, he can't exist on it. And I had the occasion last week to give him a little assistance. In fact I think it was assistance that he appreciated very much. He purchased a stove for $245 and he still has a balance of $150 owmg. So the finance company came in last week. They were going to repossess the stove, so I wel!t :right down a,,d prevailed on them that they couldn't ta_�e the stove out. After all they can't cook in the furnace or they can't cook on a hot plate, so the stove has been left temporar ily.

So there are the circumstances of a man that is tryfng to help himself, yet at the same time, with the means test is jeopardizing the living of his children and his family, lVIr. Chairman. March 3rd, 1960 Page 1169

(Mr. Re id, cont' d) •..• So I think that the Minister should take under advisement, especially blind people, that the means test should be abolished in blind people. MR . CHAIRMAN: (

b) Passed. (c)

(1) Passed. MR . SHOEMAKER: We, I think, all agree in this House on one thing at least, and that is that restrictions under the existing total disability pensions are pretty rigid. In fact, you nearly have to have one foot in the grave and one on a banana peeling to qualify. I wonder if the Honourable the lll linister could tell us whether there is any indication that there might be a slackening of some of the rigid tests that must be made today? MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr.

Chairman, I think that I have expounded at quite some lengths in previous reports on the question of disability allowance and I certainly share with the honourable member the concern that he has expressed. I would just like to say to him that some time ago we did get a little broader

interpretation from the federal authorities concern ing the question of those people who were menatlly incapacitated, and this has resulted in a larger enrollment of a number of these _cases that were prev-iously rejected. This estimate, as you see here, anticipates an increase of $29, 000 over fast year, anticipating a little more as more of these people will be enrolled. I would also point out to him, as I mentioned in my previous remarks,at a meeting in Ottawa last fall all the Ministers across Canada were in attendance, and met with the Federal Minister concerning these regulations.

I brought the feeling, I think, of this Committee to the Minister's attention and had some very good examples to give him of what I thought was a little too strict enforcement. I am hoping, as I say, that there will be some rela;'mtion in these regulations. However, I would point out to·. the Commit tee that, as I have said earlier, under the Social Allowances Act, we are able to, in the pres ent procla. "ll ation, reconsider those who on the basis of need, who have been rejected from DA and require someone else to look after them.

As I say, this is in the present proclamation and we have quite a diarized -- quite a few cases in this regard. However, I would point out that since Jilll uary 1st 159 to December '59, we have an increased enrollme nt of 102 oE dis ability allowance. MR. CH.AIRlVIAN: (

a) Passed. (

b) Passed. (.)Passed.

(2) Passed. MR. REID: •..... , •.• • allowance. I've got a case here, Mr. Chairman. The gentleman has tried for two years to get disability allowance. He is formerly a packinghouse worker; he got paralyzed on the right side, arm and his leg, and for two years he has tried to get a pension and no success.

In fact the last time the inspector came around fu"1d he asked him if he was right-handed, and he said, "yes, I was right:.. handed." He said, "Can you cut any bread?'- apparently· bread is the staff of life-- and he said, "Well, I can't cut it right-h anded; I can cut left- handed." "Well", he said, "as long as you can. cut bread with your left hand, " he said, 'you don't need a pension." Well, Mr . Chairman, I thought that was pretty rash. Any inspect or even coming and even telling a man a thing like that!

But under this new scheme, now, I am going to get these people to fill these reports out and I a."'! going to deliver them personally to the Minister himself. Because I figure if people -- two years and more go by and they don't get any assistance, something has to be done. And this gentleman right now, he is in dire circumstances because bJs wife took on to earn a living for the family and she got a job in a hide cellar where it is damp, salty and cool. Thus, due to her work, she got rheumatism, arthritis, a,,d she can't work.

So when she applied for unemployment insurance, the boss said, well, I guess he. must have made a statement to the Unemployment Insurance. She went down there -- "Sorry, you left the job of your own accord, no unemployment insurance." So now they are living off the good graces of the corner storekeeper. True, they own their own home so he is not taking a gamble there. But I can't understand it, Mr. Chairman, this disability pension, because I know of another case, their boy had cerebral palsy ,I believe palsy is the word, and the only thing he could move was his eyelashes.

And it took practically two years before the Board passed him. Well I don't know what the Board -- true, I maintain that a person should be given a thorough physical examination but when they see the condition of some of these people and then they just stall them off, well I don't know how they can do that, Mr.Chairman. Now I believe what I am going to do with these people here, is to get them to sign this new form and I am going to deliver to the Minister personally and then maybe we'll see if they can get some results. MR . JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr.

Chairman, I welcome my honourable friend at any time to Page 1170 March 3rd, 1960

(Mr. Jobnson (Gimli) cont'd) ••••• bring his problems. If they are of this severity I feel, like he, that they definitely req-llire a looking into and I welcome him, when the smoke clears away, to come and pay us a visit. MR. CA:MPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I was going to say that I think it is getting pretty close to the end of the estimates on the Department of Health and Public Welfare. I was going to say that after not having taken very much

part in the cliscussion, having been here all the time, watched and listened, I'd say that a.'ly honourable member of this House that wants to take his problems to the Minister is certainly going to find a very sympathetic listener and a mighty good advocate, because I personally have certainly been impressed, both with the intensity of his feeling in regard to this department that he heads, both the Health

section and the Welfare section, and what I am afraid of is that so many of us will load our problems onto the Min ister personally , that perhaps he will rather overdo his own strength in trying to take care of them all, for .this is a pretty exhaustive depa:!:tment. and the Minister has certainly worked hard.

So while it's very kind of the Minister to say that we should take our problems to him, and I am sure I also have availed myself of that invitation in the past, yet I think that we should realize that he has a staff to deal with as well, and perhaps a good many of us can send them in through the more routine channels. And all I was going to say, in addition to that, :Mr. Chairman, is that I think the Minister has made a great contribution to this most difficult problem of the disability allowances. Because it was an extremely troublesome kind of

an act when it was passed in the first instance. I donn think that the present government has, as yet, made much change in it. I am speaking of the Federal Government, but the Minister will be better aware of that than I. He seems to have some hope that it will be consid erably relaxed. I don't know that I share his optimism in that regard; but again he will be much better inform ed than I.

But whether it is or whether it isn't, the fact that the Minister has told us time and time again in the discussion of these estimates that one of the reasons for the policy that he has instituted and one which I am sure is going to require a tremendous amount of work and a great expenditure, is to take up the gap and he has told us that he's had his st2.ff diarizing those applications that were unable to qualify under the stringent provisions of the federal regula..'ions • So I really think that the MiD_ister has gone a long way, and I think he has done a great job on these estimates, and inasmuch as it's been customarJ to sometimes pay compliments to some of the N'dnisters, once in awhile after having asked him a great many questions, I'd like to be in this case the first to compliment the Minister most sincerely on the extremely capable and helpful, and if I may say so, tolerant way in which he has dealt with his estimates.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 47, $11,948,785. Passed. MR. GRAY: May I say a word on behalf of our group, on my behalf, and support all the fine words uttered by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. And I want to tell the Doctor something else. Occasionally - of course I don't blame him; even doctors have nerves - and occasionally he gets a litt le of ---I wouldn't say --- a little bit excited over certain questions. I want to tell him that as a Doctor he ought to know that he, a doctor, cannot diagnose a case properly unless he has the co-operation and the help of the patient.

It may be that if not fo:c our questions or mild criticisms, perhaps he wouldn't have given �s so much information about the work tha:'' his department is handling. And I can assure the Minister now that we are still not satisfied and I don't think we'll ever be. We will always try to have things improved but as for the moment we are very thankful and appreciative of the improvement of those who depend on the province's help and of those who are unfortunate and compelled to receive welfare and assistance and help.

So I say that on the end of the estimates, we have no serious complaint and I hop3 that the Minister also has no serious complaint of the many questions, which are vital, and believe me the questions have been repaid by the informative answers by the Minist er of Health, And the more he co-operates wlth the patients the better doctox he will be. MR" CHA'ffi])(iA_l\1: Department 9, Mines and Natural Resources. Appropriation 1. Administration (

a) Salarl.es" HON. C. H. WITNEY (lV.tinister of Mines & Natural Resources) (FlL."l Flon): Mr. Chairman, I am very pleased that this moment has arrived because while I wouldn't like to say that the suspense was unbearable, I would like to say that the suspense has been hardly bearable during these past few days. I am not sure whether this will be a big event to the members of this March 3rd, 1960 Pagell71

(Mr. Witney; cont'd) •.••• Commi ttee but I must confess that it's a big event to me today. I find that introducing estimates for the first time is much like getting married for the fust time . There is all the anticipation and all the eagerness and there is all the wonderment as to how you got into this position, there is some trepidation, but the only difference that I see between the two operations is that there is no honeymoon to this on e. I'd like, Mr.

Chairman, today just to deal briefly with·the various departments which I feel the Commi ttee will be interested in and I trust that I do not burden them too long . I have given myself three rules here: smile, don't be opinionated, and relax, and I think the second one will be the hardest one, Mr. Chairman, to live up to . I'd like to say that Mines and Natural Resources has made progress during the past year despite the fact that it has had a new Minister .

And at this time I would like to pay tribute to the staff -- a large number of them are up there in· the gallery -- for bearing with me; for answering again all the questions that a new Minister can ask, and for giving him all the information that they can; for being generous with their time and their expeJ;"ience; for helping to bed in the new Minister and make him so that he will know more about his department, for if I accomplish nothing else I think I have accomplished a genuine interest in the Department of Mines and Natural Resources .

In the branch of Mines and Oil -t o deal with that one first -I think the most significant points of interest in this branch have been the developm ent at Thompson and the development of the Stall Lake and the Chisel Lake mines . the three of them, which we hope will come into production by the end of this year .

Also the announcement that the International Nickel Comp any will be establishing an electrolytic refinery which will permit the proces sing of nickel from the raw material to the finished product in one operation in one place, and I understand that it is the only place in North America that this will be done .

We are particularly pleased to see the progress that is made with Stall Lake and Chisel Lake, for Stall Lake and Chisel Lake are right near Snow Lake, and as you are probably aware, just a ye!!l' or two ago it appeared that · the Town of Snow Lake would become a ghost town, and fortunately through active exploration of the company concerned we novihave Snow Lake revived; we have two active mines which w;; hope will be into production this coming year, and a third one to the north which looks very promising at Osborne Lake.

Exploration activity in the Department of Mines; and while it hasn't reached the same level that it had in 1957 when we experienced in the province one of our most active exploration periods , it has maintained a very satisfactory level, and we have 20 exploration and mirJ.<"lg comp anies that have been active during the past year and will be continuing to be active during 1960 . Most of the exploration has been taking place in the area between Setting and Split Lakes, a distance of 100 miles or so in the Lynn Lake area, in the Cranberry Po rtage :J.rea, Ll'l the · Sherridon area, and in south-eastern Manitoba.

It's particularly interesting to note that we have had quite an increase of geophysical work in lime stone areas where limestone over lies the precambrian rock and one of the notable examples is in Selkirk just �- way down to the south of the Province where they have drilled through limestone and hit greenstone at some 1, 000 feet below the lime stone activity. This type of work is going on to the east of Hudson's Bay; it has been done to the south of Cranberry Portage and it is an interesting development that has progressed during the past year .

We hope this year as with last year to have seven geological parties in the field, and I am pleased to announce to the comm itte<:J that we received notice just the other day that the Dominion C-.Qvernment. will be holding or wl ll be conducting the largest geological surveying in the province than .it has clon<:J for some years . So along with our own seven geological groups and the groups from the Dominion Governmer.t the work of survey ing the province will continue this year at a good pace .

The total valt:e of mineral production in 19 59 is estimated at $57,95 1, 665 as compared with$57, 066, 406 in 19 58, and the value of metals increased from $26, 900, 293 in 1958 to $27,9 42, 079 in 1959 . The value of industrial minex-als showed a marked increase from $11, 500, 000 in 1958 to $1 6,78 2, 600 in 1959 . Now the increase in the value of metals reflect increases in quantities produced and the price per pound of both copper and zinc and 8.11 increase in the tonnage of nickel produced.

These gains were partly offset by decreases in gold produc tion but in the industrial minerals category increases were shown in the production of cement, in the production and price of g-ypsum and in the value per ton of sand and graveL Revenue to the provL11ce from our mines was estimated for 1959 at roughly $355, 000 . Some of the Page 1172 March 3rd, 1960

(Mr. Witney, cont'd) ••.•• interesting facts about the mines branch has been one of our first gold mines in Manitoba, if not the first gold mine, at Herb Lake in the Herb Lake area. The shaft will be dewatered there this year for further exploration.

We've had a dewatering of the shaft at the Montgary Mine on Bernic Lake just to the north and east of Lac du Bonnet and some interesting finds there in the lithium and some rare metals such as caesium,and San Antonio, one of the oldest gold producers here in Maniioba and one of the remarkable gold producers which we have a tendency to forget or it seems to be off to one side, has been producing succes sfully during all these years despite the problems of the gold industry and they have, through exploration, found more ore below the present operating levels, and I would imagine will be going down for it this coming year.

Jn oil exploration . Exploration drilling was limited to 16 wildcat wells at scattered points in the south-we stern part of ti'le province where sedimentary rocks oc cur tb.i-oughout approximately 45 million acres . In much of this area multiple potential oil producing strata oc cur although commercial production has been found only in formations of the Mississi pian age. Approximately 1500 wells have been drilled to date and of these approxima�ly 1000 wells have produced oil.

In addition to this 45 million acres that we have in the Virden area, it's interesting to note that the province has a further 16 million acres of sediments occurring in a belt along the south- west shore of the Huds on's Bay, and that enquiries have been received regarding exploration of this area, but to date we have had no activity. Development drilling - has been completed in known oilfields with the exception of the few wells requi red to complete ly delineate the pools and seasonal surveys were conducted during the past year by the British American_ Oil Co. Limited and Imperial Oil Limited. Now Mr.

Chairman, I have been in the Virden area twice and talked with industry and talked with our own officials, and we feel optimistic that the present level of oil production that we have in the province right now, although it has shown a decline, that the present level will continue for a good number of years to come.

The unitization and the water flooding of the Daly Field has shown considerable progress and response so that the production has in crea.sad and we know that with the N:lrth Virden Scallion field when unitization is found to be nec•;s sary and water flooding is evolved in that area, that we can have more production from that large field.

It is reliably estimated that in the North Virden Scallion field that we have an additional recovery of $16 million and I should just like to go on record and join with the opti_mism of rny department that t-he oil at the level that we have at the present time in the Province oi Manitoba should remain substantially the same for a good number of years to came, and during that ti:rne of course, there will be exf?loration activity and if we are able to get down to the Devonian a:.:ea and strike a well there, then we'll be back in business in a real live fashion.

In referring to the Surveys Branch of the Departmenf-'of J\fines and Natural Resour ces, the completion of the boundary between tha North West Territories and Manitoba, we hope to have done this year .

We is sued an optimistic report a while ago stating that it would be done this year, but eveu though I come from the north country I neglected to consider the elements Rnd the fact that they are very rough on machinery, and our crews in Churchill have encount ered bad weather and have encountered machinery breakdowns, and while we will do every thing we can to complete the remaining portion of the boundary thts coming year, it is going to be quite a joh to do so .

The boundary is surveyed both by -- the Manitoba Government does the work but the costs are on a contribution basis , 50% being paid by the Federal Government and 50% by the province. The work on the boundary bet\veen Manitoba a."ld Saskatchewan will continue this year . The work there will be done by the Manitoba Government, but the cost will be split three ways; 1/3 by the Dominion, 1/3 by the ProvLuce of Saskatchewan, and 1/3 by the Provincr,; of Manitoba . It's in teresting to note, Mr.

Chairman, that despite the wild areas that these men work in, that the bour1daries between Saskatchewan and Manitoba, and the North West Territories and Manitoba, are surveyed to an accuracy of 1 inch in 3 miles. I think it' s rather remarksNe considering the tundra and U:lrrain ths.t they work in and the boun.dary is <llso marked by ::;tone cairns which they pl:ice about a mile and a half apart.

Another interesting little sidelight about the Surveys group is that they operate on a time which is a fast time, they term it a sidereal time which apparently is some three minutes and a few odd seconds faster than the time that we operate on here in Manitoba, in Winnipeg. March 3rd, 1960 Page 1173

(Mr. Witney; cont'd) , .. .•.• . In Forestry. The peak years of production of 1956 and 57 and the downward trend that resulted following those peak years we feel has been arrested this year, and that we are on the upswing. We estimate the value of primary forest production for this year to be 19 million dollars as compared with 17 million dollars the previous year, and we estimate that the revenue to the province for '59 will be $1, 300, 000 or about 10% of the total value of the primary producti�.>n.

I am pleased to announce that we have two new forest industries operating in the province, and we have the RoblinBoliden plant. where·they are treatingchemically jack pine and poplar, making use of a species of which we haven't had sufficient utilization due to various technical problems.

It is a process that has been used in Sweden and New Zealand, used in railway ties and in some bridges and the Department of Mines and Natural Resources this year will be using some of it for piCnic tables and docks on its roadside park and picnic ground program in order to test it for its weatherability and its wearability, and we have also been fortunate in securing the assistance of the Department of Public Works to utilize as a test basis some of this material in one of their bridges.

We've also had a framing mill at Atimik Lake just to the west of The Pas or east of The Pas for mine timbers which will be used at Thompson, and with the development of the Thompson Mine indications are that the framing mill up there will have to enlarge or they will have to build a second one .

The initial seven year Forest Inventory program has been completed during the past year except for compilation work which is still going on, and we now enter into an area of five years of maintenance work. and the further compilation, more detailed analysis of the forest in the accessible parts of the province, and we have as a result of this Forest Inventory ' had printed and distributed five Forest Resources Inventory Reports during the past year; two more are in the hands of the printers and just about ready for distribution and we have two more to come up during this year of 1960 plus an overall report.

We will also have lithographic maps available so that those who are L'lterested in making use of the forest products, or the forest resources that we have, will have more information on which to base their decisions . Re-photographing will be carried on this year followed by re-su rveying and reclassifica tion so that we may learn more about timber species, size, classes, possible utilization.

The Forest Inventory has also enabled us to continue the program of sustained yield management and during 1959 , 725 square miles were brought under sustained yield management by the Forestry Branch to make a total of 15,730 square miles.

We hope to obtain the same progress this Gaming year and to speed up the process of establishing especially in the accessible area, the sustained :yield principle on the Forest resorts. 1959 was a good year for Fire .- We had very few fires break out duri..ng 1959 due prtm arily to the dampness thafwe experienced and also to the below normal temperatures that we have had during the past year .

We have, however, kept up the work of improving our Forest Fire Protection throughout the province and we have, this coming year, three new towers scheduled; we have continued our experiments with new methods SllCh as water bombing ::tnd water dropping and an interesting one that was carried out was with bentonite slurry from .Miami -- bentonite being a form of a day and when mixed With a mud, has a good smothering effect on a fire, and if spread in front of a fire it makes the i.wigs and the leaves more fire resistant.

We've also continued vvith the-program of education of the public a1ld at this time I would like to extend the appreciation of the Department to the newspapers, to radio and to television for the assistance that they have given the Forest Department in dravling to the attention of the public, the dangers of forest fires and the harm that can be done. \\'hen we realize that a cigarette or a match can do so much damage .:in just a space of hours when it takes a matter of 60 to 75 year<� to bring the timber back into merchantable statas, and then you can under stand that we must have an educated public in this regard, especially as we have more people penetrating :into ouT forest reserves for recreational ;t9tivit'j.

We have continued on 'Ni.th the program of reforestation d:uring 1959 and for this year coming. R-eforesta tion was started in the Spruce Wood Forest Reserve in 1904 a.11d to date 14 ,7 00, 000 trees have been planted and more tb:an 8, 500 acres of plantations have. been estab-· lished. The program during the past year was for one million trees to be planted and we · intend to :increase this by 600, 000 trees each year. The areas that were reforested were the Page 1174 March 3rd, 1960

(Mr. Witney, oont'd.) ..• South-East corner, the Agassiz , the Whiteshell, and we starte d work on the Inter- Lake area from Hodgson to Mantag Lake. We have the Pineland Nursery which I think many of you have seen along No. 1 High way. It has a nursery inventory of some eight million tre es and its activities are being expanded so that we can apply reforestation to the areas that need it in order to continue with our sustained y-ield management and the infor mation that was obtained from the Forest Inventory surveys .

We have experimented during the past year with scarification and the use of pelleted seeds and the success of that has been encouraging to the point where we will be continuing with it on an accelerated scale this coming year . One of the activities of the Pineland Nursery is to supply trees to farmers for shelter belts and to tree farmers and those who have wood lots and the nursery supplied 70, 000 trees in 1959 and farmers, if the members are interested, can. obtain 500 trees a year at $1 a hundred and for tree farm and woodlot planting, the appli cants can obtain planting stock at $20 per thousand.

With the more leisure time the people have With improved roads and with the ability to buy boats and cabins on down payment system, we have more people demanding more recrea tional fac:!J.ities and this has become one of the major problems of the Forestry Department. You will notice in the estimates that we will be asking for three more in order to catch up on the bll.cklog of work that has developed and also to continue developing more recreational pro jects for the province .

I don't think it is realized that during the past year that the Forestry Branch took over the roadside park and picnic ground development from the Department of Public Works and we also took over the Trans Canada Camp Grounds Agreement for three ma jor site s and picnic sites along the Trans Canada Highway. All this work has piled up on us and we are now seeking from the committee more staff in order to help with the problem . Just to briefly give you some of the work that was accomplished at various sections of the province.

At Falcon Beach the second wing to the shopping centre was added; the beach front extended; the boat harbour and the storage dock was completed; a 110 summer home unit extension was made; increased picnic and parking facilities were built and we ·now have in oper ation our ski run which is proving to be more succes sful every weekend and with the ski run we hope to make more of the FalconBeach area in the year.

As a summer development, of course, it has only a four year life span but with the ski run that is operati. 1g at the present ti me, we hope to be able to use the facilities for a period of about nine months. In the Whiteshell, the Natural History Museum will be cpen this year at Nutimik Lake and wm·k has been done on the Indian Rock Mosaics in the Nutimik Lake area; they have been fenced and preser ved .

Progress has been made ::m roads and camp grounds it> the Big Whitbshell; we've built a large dock at ·fu� Brereton :r ... ake public camp ground; we'v e had a 800 foot concrete retaining wall built at West Hawk Lake.

Now if you wonder why we seem to be stl·ess ing Falcon and White shell Lake and I'm sul'e that the people in the north cou..11try will be asking me why, as I'm now the l\linister of IVIines and Natural Resources and during the past year we have had over a million people visit that whole area and with the Trans Canada Highway traversing it now, we expect that this fig m·e will increase, so the pressure is on the Falcon Lake and White shell areas .

I had hoped to present to this House this year a Wilderness Parks Act but after we started to draft the Act and after we began to make our investigations , we found that there were some problems and some. further considerations which should be taken into account.

We have now set up a study group among our Directors and we are obtaining information from those provinces in the Dominion who have Wilderness Parks so that we may benefit from their e�1Jerience and elim inate some of the problems that they encountered. other work that was completed to camp g:tounds and improvements or extension of summer home lots were at various points in the prov iuce such as Child' s Lake, Blue Lake, Wellman Lake, Atikameg, Max Lake .fllld Moose La.lre, al togethzr the Forestry Branch handled 20 public camp grounds; 258 summer cottage properties were g1·anted; 378 summer homesites a1·e presently available; 250 more wi .ll be made available during 1960 and during the year camp ground accommodation was supplied to 7, 012 tents , 1, 013 trailers which sheltered 31, 274 people, 909 dogs and nine cats .

And we have, in addition to th at, the three major sites and the six picnic sites and along other highways the Forestry Branch is operating 27 roadside parks and we wtll be developing 16 new roadside parks in the year to come. Now refer ring to the Game Branch , I fe el that the Pr ovince is March 3rd, 1960 Page 1175

(,Mr . Witrtey, co n:t' d.) ....•.. _w ell stock _ed with game . Lt hi.nk si nc e i have come Into the Department there have been more problems have arisen with elk and with deer and with other forms of predators . I thi.nk that I should mention that the Game Branch i.n the Department of Mines and Natural Resources operate on the philosophy that it is our respcn sibility to keep a satisfactory level of the various species that we have i.n this province for the benefit of the people of the province. And we have done that.

We ran into an extremely diffi cult year, but this year has been one of the most uriusual that we have experienced for a good number of years and it will probably not occur again for another good number of years . We have endeavoured to meet the problem with every""Jring we had; we have experimented with such items as zon bangers and with a form of bone tar which emitted an odour which the deer found to be reprehensible to them, but we found when the cold weather developed that the zon banger, the gas that operates it contracted and the efficiency of the zon banger went out the wi.ndow.

The same happened with the bone tar which was placed along the deer trails. It was fine during the warm weather but when the cold weather came it lost its potency. We have since sought help from the Dominion Government and the Dominion Government has referred our requests for as sistance to the Wildlife Service of Canada and also to the University of British Columbia where there is a professor who has made quite a study on the various problems with respect to deer .

We increased our hunting season in order to try to help meet the problem that arose but unfor tunately the hunters these days seem to be interested more i.n hunting from the roadside and not penetrating into the various areas and the result was that despite the fact that we Increased the hunting season that we did not take the harvest of the deer that was desired or the elk and the depredation_ of farmers' crops continued .

With respect to Riding Mountain National Park we took the problem to the Federal auth orities who had the elk in the Park and whose elk were moving out into the Province of Manitoba where they became our problem. At their request we increased the hunting season and as the problem grew more severe they took a controlled kill of their numbers i.n order to try to ease the problem for the farmers there. We are having a meeting this coming week with the Federal Park officials to discuss the problem further.

With the 10-80 program for control of predators such as coyotes 14 municipalities engaged in the 10-80 program this year and we have 82 baits in_ the various municipalities. We announced that we will go into this 10-80 program and then we wait for the municipalities to ask for it. We wish to have the co-operation of the municipal ities, not only do they pay 50% but this 10-80 is a very dangerous material and we wish to have the municipality aid us in advising all people of the baits where they are set out, to well adver tise it so that we do not have trouble with dogs or with children.

I believe, and there may be some of the members here will disagree, that we have kept the wolf problem under control. We have mcreased the number of professional hunters; we now have three in the Inter-lake area; we have two i.n the south-east corner; and we now have, I think it is eight or ten of our game men who are very capable as professional hunters when the need will arise. And up i.nthenorthcoun try we have also established a program of wolf control i.n order to assist in the problem of bar- ren land caribou.

In the Game Branch, we have Increased our biological staff to meet the pres sures of having to fi.nd out more information about the various species and our biologists have conducted investigations into moose browze and population studies in northern Manitoba; they've conducted the annual moose-elk and deer aerial count in theDuck Mountains; they've conducted deer winter survival studies, browze and aerial survey counts; they have engaged actively with the Federal Government in the barren land caribou and I am pleased to tell you that the crop of young caribou has shown an increase for the past two years.

About a year ago it was 20% and this coming year it is also another 20%. During 1958 and 15 9 waterfowl on the Canadian Prairie suffered considerably from drought which interfered with nesting i.n many areas and the department was well aware of the situation and bag limits were reduced i.n 1959. The bag catch in Manitoba showed the ratio of young to adult birds in the hunte1·1s bag to be far below normal, substantiating the low nesting success and these checks were confirmed in many places along the Mississippi Flyway i.n which we are most vitally inte.rested.

The winter inventory of waterfowl in the United states is reported as indicating a greater than 40% decrease in waterfowl, and the decli."l.e in the number of canvas back and redhead ducks has been particularly heavY. We have felt concern and the Federal Government has felt concern for this species a year ago anc;l_It may be .necessary this coming Page 1176 March 3rd, 1960

(Mr. Witney, cont'd .) .•. year to give them special protection and unless nesting success is very much above normal we can expect additional hunting restrictions in 1960. We have co operative breeding ground and nesting success surveys to be made this coming summer and Manitoba will participate as usual and we hope there has been a decided increase in nesting succes s.

The Experimental Fur and Game Station on the Fort Garry Campus has been experiment ing durJ.ng this past year, with proper diets, for mink ranchers, especial.ly with the utilization of rough fish and they have under some conditions found that it is possible to use rough fish without the problems of having to ccok it which may decrease the cost to the mink rancher and certainly will decrease the trouble in the operation that he has. With the development at Grand Rapids we will have a large area of moose habitat and our Summerberry March will be flooded.

We are conducting constant investigations and studies and meetings with the Manitoba Hydro Electric Board and we have engaged the services of a Wildlife official from the United States to evaluate-t he game and what the problem and the dam age will be in that area and to assist us in finding suitable areas for re-ele ction such as the Mandalay and the Twin Island the the Saskeram area. We went to the United states because their group there have had a similar problem arise with large dams and we feel that we can benefit from their experience and from their knowledge .

In the Fisheries Branch the fresh water fishery production for 1959 is valued at $6, 253, 524 as compared in 1958 to a value of production of $5,9 35, 245 . Our fishermen's representative b.as developed 14 fishermens• groups comprising approximately 300 members and they recently form ed a group at Grand Rapids . We have a ten member executive from the three major lakes and from the northern lakes and they will be holding a convention soon here in Winnipeg. We have also increased our biological staff and we are very pleased to have on the staff a biologist from India, Dr.

Bassoo who has come to us highly recommended by biologists from several countries, including Dr. Diamond - some of the members of this committee may know him -- who has highly recommended him. He is a man who is an expert in pollution and its effect upon fish and we will be havi11g him, he's already started work on the problem of Lake Winnipeg. We also this year, at the request of the fishing companies and the fishermen, are increasing our rough fish removal program.

We have, through the assistance of the Dominion Government, obtained the services of a trawl net on the lake this summer; we have increased from four to ten the num ber of trap neta that we will be operating in the middle of the lake in order to remove maria and other rough fish and at the same time accelerate our tagging program of white fish and pickerel and sanger, the commercial fish on the lake. We are pleased to advise that we have been able to obtain considerable assistance from the federal government in the research on tl:e inland fish eries .

Another meeting will be held not this next week but the week coming with a representa tive of the federal fisheries exfJerimental group to talk with our department. We have conduct ed, and commercial fishing I think during this past month that I have been as the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources has absorbed a great deal of my time, and also it has cre ated a great deal of anxiety a11d I trust that it will not have any deteriorating effects upon my health. Commercial fishing is a very grave problem in Manitoba and we in the Department of Mines and Resources are coping with it as well as we possibly can.

In other biological work we have c0mprehensive surveys on the Winnipeg River from Sev en Sisters Falls and Slave Fails; we have coarse fish removal projects to be continued at Falcon Lake , Mistic Creek and Clear;vater Lake and Whitefish Lake in the Porcupines ; and at Lyons Lake and Hunt Lake in the Whlteshell we have eradicated fish in preparation for trout stocking this year so that we hope to provide good angling in 196 1.

We have continued our studies on the Stu.rgeon Management Program on the Ndson P..iver and we have also done test surveys on a number of northern lakes to assess the quality of the white fish. Now Mr. Chairman, I didn't expect to burden the committee so long with this statement . I'm used to 20 second flashes and to one minute commercials and 15 second newscasts and I didn't expect that I would be able to speak for such a length of time. That is the end of my statement M1". Chairman, I've been hesitating about this for some time but I'm going to go ahead with it at any rate.

MR, WlTNEY: Maintenant, M. le President, mon armure est boucle, ma lance est abaisse, mon cheval de bataille ronge son frein et je suis pret a jouter avec les membres de !'Opposition les plus redoutablss. March 3rd, 1960 Page 1177

(Mr. Witney, ·cont'd.) Now, Mr. Chairman, my armour is buckled en, my lance is lowered, my charger is chomping at the bit and I am ready to joust with the most redoubtable members of the Opposi tion. MR. ELM.I!,.N GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr. Chairman, I would like to express my gratitude to the Minister who has just taken hi.s seat for the very informative and L!teresti..ng report he has given us on his department.

He says he didn't intend to speak as long as he did, that he's used to 20 second flashes --well I must confess that it didn't appear to me that he spoke much longer because I found his report so interesting. He compares the experience of going into the estimates for the first time by that of a person about to be married and he claims that he doesn't think that the experience of his esti ma tes will be quite the honeymoon.

Well I will say this, that if the Minister carries on in the manner which he has since he became a member of this House, as courteous 3.1'-<l. interested at all times, ! think that he'll find that the estimates of hie depa_>-tment will seem like a honeymoo:r;. compared with the experiences of other Ministers . Mr. Chairman, a subject that the Minister touched on was the commercial fishing indus try which he said was in trouble and I'm quite in agreement with him . On Lake Manitoba, a body of water which I am most familiar with, fishing certainly hasn't been good durlng the past few years .

Last year was an exceptionally bad year; many of the fishermen had to pull up their nets by Christmas because the fish was so poor, that is as far as the pickerel is concerned. This year for the first part of the season I'm happy to report that it was improved, although it has .•.• off very badly during the last while. The one saving factor has been the excellent price that the fishermen have been getting for their pickerel.

I just checked very recently and I understand that, although there's some fluctuation in price, they are getting about 40� which is ce rtainly good if the •take' was of any consequence at all. At the last session I urged the former Minister of Mines and Natural Resources to con sider the possibility of a fish processing plant. One of the big problems on Lake Manitoba is the vast amount of rough fish which is being caught, and unfortunately, as the rilinister well knows, the fisherman is getting ne:;,.i; to nothing for this. For instance mullets, they're fortu nate to get a cent a pound for it.

I was at Lundar during the past weekend, and was talking to a fisherman there and he tells me that they had a fish buyer out on the lake offering him only half a cent a pound which is absolutely ridiculous because there's a great deal of food value in the mullets and I feel that something should be done to encourage t.he fishermen to take this specie from the lake because it is rough fish and he ca.'l't posaibly make a livi.'lll,' taking rough fish out of the lake at one cent a pound. Fishermen advise me that if they can get four cents a pound for this particular specie they could make a living on it.

I reme�hsr seeing a bill from a fisherman last year and he had taken out approximately 1, 300 pounds during one week of mullets and his receipt from the fish company for that particular specie was $13 . 00 . Now as the committee well knows, the price of nets today is going up all the time and it seems strange, but it seems it's a fact that the rough fish seems to be the hardest fish on the nets.

That is they seem to be more destructive, than the pickerel which brings the fishermen a handsome price , _1\nd I urged the government at that time to consider the possibility of establishing a processing plant whereby the fishermen could possibly get roughly four cents a pound for the rough fish and the government could sell the oil and the meal that could be manufactured from the rough fish and do no worse than break even on the project.

The Minister of the day, in the House on July 16th commented and told me at that time we have been working with a private en terpriser who wants to go into that particular field, and I would be very interested to know, when the lVrinister l'eplies, what progress has been ma de in this particular field. The previous Minister said that one of the difficulties of such a plant would be the transporting of rough fish to the plant. I understand the private enterpriser who the ML1ister was referring to had some idea of establishing a processing plant on a barge .

He said - these are his words: •we are making progress with it and will be carrying on the inves tigations into the marketing and merchandising of the rough fish". And I thin.!;: particularly he was referring to the northern p.ike when he spoke at that time . The northern pike at the present time is only bringing the fishermen roughly four and five cents a pound. This is another fish that certainly is edible and this annoys me no end when I find that the fish companies are getting Page 1178 March 3rd, 1960

(Mr. Guttormson, cont'd.) ••• a handsome price for this particular fish. I phoned one of the department stores in Winnipeg today and asked them the price of northern pike and it was ap proximately 509 a pound. The fisherman is getting four and five cents a pound, so somebody is certainly getting a rake-off -- not the fisherman . I also enquired about the price of pickerel fillets in the department stores . I tried two different stores today and there was a fluctuation of price; one store was selling it for $1 .50 a pound, another store was selling it for $1 . 39 a pound.

Now the fisherman is getting approximately 409 a pound and those familiar with filetting a fish know that there is approximately 50% or 47% waste . So even at that the fisherman is only getting 809 a pound for the pickerel and there still is a tremendous mark- up, and people who buy the fish have the opinion that the fisherman is getting all the money and this is just not a fact.

I also suggested last year that the government should look into the possibility of estab lishing or getting a canning factory established, I was prompted to suggest this because I had occasion to visit a home in my constituency and stopped at mealtime and they offered me canned mullets for dinner and I was astonished how tasty it was, and without any hesitation I can tell you that that fish resembled something very close to salmon, and it seems to me in this world today where there are so much welfare and starvation in the world, it seems a shame that this fish shouldn't be put to better use .

The former Minister commenting on my suggestion said there had been some distinct possibilities particularly to the canning of northern pike and said - assured me that he would follow the suggestion as fast as he could . Perhaps the Minister might indicate to this committee just what progress has been made in this regard because I certainly think it's a worthwhile venture . ' There is a considerable amount of complaint amongst the fishermen -- no doubt the Min ister has heard about it -- regarding the fish companies.

Although I can't give you any proof, I daresay there isn't a fisherman on the lake who will hesitate to tell you that he thinks there is a combine operating with the fish companies . A.1·1d I'll give you briefly a reason why this opinion is being held. Fishermen who frequently go to a-local fish buyer and ask him what he's paying for his fish, and on numerous occasions and on various parts of the lake the fisherman will say I have to phone the company, they're holding a meeting with the other fish companies to see what we shall pay. Now if this isn't a combine I don't know what is .

Because I've check ed along the lake and hardly without exception the price at all locations is the same. It is true that there are occasions when fish is in short supply the fish company may have an order for some pickerel and in order to get that fish from the other companies they may suddenly break their bond and offer a slight increase over the other fish companies. It' s also true that the fish price is good today but that is mainly due to the very short supply of pickerel on Lake Man itoba .

I don't know whether the Minister is in any position to tell me what he thinks of this , but if he has I certainly would apprecia te hearing from him. The Minister also touched on the work of Mr . Helgi Tomasson who is organizing the fishermen throughout Manitoba. I don't think we can use words to describe the work of this man because it's certainly an excellent thing.

The fishermen have never been organized to any extent, really not at all, and I don't think that .until such time as they are organized and they have a common voice reporting to the government with their problems that they will achieve the goal they're trying to attain. And Mr.

Tomasson, who I had the pleasure of meeting on nu merous occasions has shown tremendous interest in the fishing industry and I'm sure that if he continues in this work that nothing but good can come out of it for the fishermen , Another problem which is prevailing in my constituency -- and I'm sure it' s prevailed throughout most of Manitoba -- is predators . The Minister said a few moments ago that he thought he had the wolves under control.

I wouldn't agree with him entirely there because I am continually getting reports, and mind you I can't substantiate them, that there are a lot of wolf tracks, timber wolf tracks that is , being seen around the Sleeve Lake area at the present time. Mind you it' s true that we haven't had any reports of cattle losses but that can easily be explain ed by the fact that cattle are not roaming at large at this time of year.

One farmer told me just recerr'"W.y that he thought that the fact that the deer is ver<.f plentiful might save the cattle in the spring, but only time will tell whether he's correct in his assumption. The Minister well knows that last fall, along with the member for Fisher, we met in his office to discuss the severe loss es being experienced by farmers living in the Kilkenny-Fi sherton area. One farmer, if my March 3rd, 1960 Page 1179

(Mr. Gutto:rmson, cont'd.) •.. memory serves ,me correctly, lost nine head which represents a lot of money to a sm all fa rmer and he's certainly in no position to stand such a lo ss . There's been a great deal of talk during the past years as to what should be done about the predators . When I first had the privilege of sitting in this House I advocated the bounty on timber wolves and must confess that the government of the day which I was a member of didn't support me in my stand; and until now I haven't -- I believe the members of the Game Branch still differ with this view.

People who are affected believe that if there was a bounty placed on the predator the Indian would be encouraged to go and hunt them; and even sportsmeu with small aircratt, bombadiers would be encouraged to go after them . At the present time, with no bounty at all on the timber wolf, there is no incentive for these people to go and chase these animals . The Minister reported today, and I was very pleased to hear about it, that he has added to the staff a number of some profess ional hunters . I know of one, Mr .

Joe Zimmerman, who I think knows more about timber wolves than the timber wolf; but one man certainly can't look after the whole province . Now that isn't quite right when I say one man because he did say there was others. In previous years it has been, I understand , the experience of the depart ment has been, that they have found it very difficult to find men with the ability of this Mr. Zimmerman . I hope the men that he has now employed are successful, and only time will tell .

I don't know whether the Minister has ever had the experience of visiting a farm where the farmer has had his cattle ravaged by timber wolves . I have seen animals with gaping holes in their flanks that you could almost put in a football, from the timber wolf. For members of the committee who aren't familiar with the way they attack , it's very beastly . The timber wolf strikes at the animal from behind and severs the cord in his hind leg and devours the animal alive .

He breaks the ham string and on occa sion if a wolf is scared off in time, an animal survives and if he is able he will walk home only to die from loss of blood. I know it is a com mon belief that the wolf strikes at the throat and destroys the animal in that 'mann er. This isn't true and I think the committee would be interested to know just how savage these animals really are . I knew one farmer close to home that lost 33 head one summer mostly young stock, and with the farmer predicament as it is today that's a very, very big blow financially.

Another predator which is causing concern particularly in the summer months to the farmer is that of skunks . I know this may bring chuckles from some members of the committee but it' s a very serious problem because the pelt of a skunk has no commer cial value , they are just literally filling the country. If you travel down the highways in the summer months you'll see countless numbers of them on highways that have been knocked down by cars .

I know -- in the municipality of Dufferin I learned that this municipality paid a bounty of $2 per head and I know it was their intention to seek financial ass istance from the provincial government with their bounty program . Perhaps the Minister could indicate later whether they ever approached the government and if so, what was their decision .

The skunk -- not only do they raid the farmers chickens and turkeys, they're very harmful to upland game, destroYing the partridge and the chicken and even the ducks, and with the plight of the duck as they are today we certain ly can't afford to have these predat ors destroying them . When I raised the poin t at the last ses sion about the skunks, the former Minister said that his department was studying it and I'd be most interested to see what their findings were . -- (Interjection) -- Well you may not be inter ested but a lot of people in the province are .

One other item I would like to touch on is that of the waterfowl . As a hunter of ducks it's most alarming to me at the rate in which the ducks are diminishing. I had an occa sion to dis cuss this problem with an expert in the field and the facts he provided me with were really as tonishing, Ten years ago in the Delta marsh the canvasback comprised more than one-quarter of the marsh' s total bag, being second only to the malla rd. Last year the Minister remarked the canvas back was only 3% -- represented only 3% of the bag taken at the marsh, and was - ninth from the top . This is a very serious situation.

Many will think that the reduced harvest is due to the special bag restrictions which were placed last year on the canvasback and the red head reducing the daily take I think from ten to four. I think that• s what it was . But this isn't really true because in 1958 before this special protection was given checks of hunters' bags in the Delta reveale d that hunters were taJdng only about two or three birds out a day; therefore it's reasonable to assume that reduci.Dg the bag limit isn't of any value and will not give the ducks the special protection they need.

Officials who know advise me that the canvasback , the Page 1180 March 3rd, 1960

(Mr. Guttormson, cont'd.) .•• majority of the canvasback are killed prior to October the lOth when they are just off the water, and they feel that the opening season on ducks in the marshes should be extended right into October and if their facts are correct -- and I have no reason to doubt them -- I think that the government should give this serious consideration to postponing the opening date particularly in the marsh area and the larger bodie s.

Mind you, it isn't enough for the province to postpone the dates of the opening of duck shooting unless they get co-operation from the other provinces in Canada and the UDJted States. This is a problem which affects the whole of North Americ a. However, I think it would be a feather in the cap of the Minister if he would instigate such a program and encourage other governments to d:l the same thing if, he in his wisdom , thinks it is correct. Another thing and I think the Minister mentione d this a little while ago, was to show that the waterfowl was decreasing -- the age of the birds shot.

In the good years hunters shot two young birds for every adult one . Last year more adult birds were being shot than young, in dicating that we are now harvesting a capital stock in waterfowl, and this can't go on long . No doubt some members of the committee may say we saw more ducks in Manitoba last year than we have ever seen before . To a point this is correct. In some places some hunters did see more ducks than in previous years, but there is a good reason for this. There was more of a congregation of the birds in certain areas last year .

I believe there was a drought in Saskat chewan, or in the west, which pre cipitated the ducks flying in Manitoba, and then we had some extremely bad weather in the north which drove them south. The fact remains that we are still shooting more older birds than younger birds, which indicates that the number of birds is rapid ly diminishing , and something has got to be done about it. Marsh land is generall y considered to be sub-marginal lands, and in some quarters worth less .

I would like to give the committee some facts to show just how productive the marshes really are, if you can put it into terms of dollars and cents . In 1958 one butcher shop in Por tage la Prairie processed 8, 000 birds . This represents only a fractional total of the kill in the Del ta. Experts in the field estim ate that 100 ,0 00 ducks are taken from the marshes -- in the Delta that is . In 1947 the Illinois Natural History Survey, in a careful study, estimated that the cost of each duck shot was $9 .77, and that was in 1947 .

Now I thin..lt that you will all agree that this is a conser vative figure in view of the pre sent dollar value . But using the 1947 figure, this repres ents s. val. ue of $1, 000, 000 which has been taken from the Delta marshes, or roughly $18 an acre . -- {Interjection) -- Yes, a.-mually. This me ans that this is represe nted in places like Win!lipeg, Portage and the surrou11ding villages; money spent on gas, food, clothing, guns and ammu."lition.

It seems to me, and I'm not criticizing the presen t government for it because this situation <.;xisted before they came into office , but it seems to me a sad situation where a province, a government or province is reaping such a benefit and they're literally doing nothing about it . No doubt there 1'.111 be some criticism of my rema rk regarding the damage done to the farmers' grain by the ducks, and this certaii!ly is a valid argument. But I would like to point out to the committee that the specie that does the damage to the grain is the mallard and the pintail.

The other species don't bother going into the field, and the canvasback and the redhead, which are in danger of becoming extinct, don't go into these fields . Therefore I think, even if the government considered an earlier season in the stubble than in the marshes, that we could achieve some success in helping these particular birds .

There is no doubt about it that the mallard does cause m1determined damage to the farmers' grain, and I think that something has got to be done whereby the farme�·s and the government and the hunters get together, or the organizations interested in wa terfowl, why somethi;1g can be done about it . And it has been ex perienced, I'm told, whe re the farmer does meet with the authorities, and they discuss the thing on a proper plane , that something can be achieved by discussing the matter. Another valuable produce from the marsh and that is the fur.

I know each year that hun dreds of thousands of dcllars are taken out from the marsh land in pelts -- muskrat pelts . I know the amotmt of fur taken during the past years has dimii'IJ.shed considera bly because the -water -- we've had some drl.er years . T' nat is another reason why I think the government should do som ething about protecting the marsh land because there ts a tremendous number of p·eople who make their living from trapping; and if we don't protect the marsh land these peo ple are going to suffer financially . But if you consider the amount of money spent by hunters March 3rd, 1960 Page 1181

(Mr . Guttormson, cont'd.) ..• shooting in the marsh, the amount of fur taken, and royalties the government gets from the muskrat, I certainly think that every consideration should be given to putting som ething back into the marsh land and protecting them for the Province of Manitoba. :rviR. CHAIRMAN: Five minutes left. MR . GUTTORJM:SON: Thank you. It has often been said by tourists that Manitoba is a step within the .rim of adventure. Well unless we look after our marches this expression will soon be a thing of the past .

In view of our time limit I will have to just touch on two or three other items I had something to speak on. There is one item I would like to bring to the attention of the committee and that was a decision by the government last year regarding the permission granted to hunters to shooting deer in the Whiteshell. I thought this was a very, very bad decision and I hope that the govern ment doesn't resort to that action again. It can be argued, I suppose, that the deer were being over-populated in the Whiteshell, but to me here is a beautiful spot that people have been going every year for receration.

The deer have learned to trust man and then suddenly without any warning they walk into the blazing guns of man. I thought this was a terrible decision of the government and I hope, sincerely hope, that they never employ such tactics again to reduce the number of deer in an area, particularly in a reserve . I'm told that in E u ropean co m:itries , where such conditions arise in game reserves, the system employed is i;o trap the deer and transport them to areas where the deer are fewer in number.

And I would certainly hope that failing this, that profes sional hunters might be put into the area, but not to let the public at large shoot the deer which had hoped to get some protection in the sanctuary. With my time up I won't deal with any more subjects . There'll be other opportunities, but I would just like to in conclusion thank the Minister again for his excellent report on the department, and I just hope that his attitude and courtesy that he's always shown since becoming a member of this House will always _continue. • • . • • • • . • • continued on next page . Page 1182 March 3rd, lll60

MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, I can assure you that my remarks will be very brief. I'm hoping to deal with other questions under the items on the estimates. I have listened to the Minister with pride and confidence that he is learning and under stands the very important and serious position he holds in the government, and particularly in the department. It is important because he is dealing with the greatest gift Providence has giv en the province for the benefit of the people. The Minister has a great responsibility to watch that this treasury is being exploited for the people and not for a few individuals.

For instance the mining industry which is being exploited by people, firms, companies--true invested many millions of dollars, created it--that's perfectly all right. They have not paid a cent for the wealth that was given to them by God but they assumed that they could exploit it in every way possible. I think a share of it at least should be given to the peo ple of the province. I have in mind for instance the mining pacts. In my opinion at least, it's not sufficient.

I understand, and if !'m wrong the Minister may correct me, the procedure is that after the company, no mat ter who it is, or the mining company, after they pay all expense, all wages, and wages to them selves at the minimum rate that we are requesting the province now, namely, $1. 25 an hour, and perhaps $1. 25 a second, and after they pay depreciation; and after they pay their dividends; and after they save up a set amount of money, well what's left? They give eight or ten percent to the people of the province. I think that this is not right.

I think it is exploiting something which does not belong to them, so I feel that a Minister has a great responsibility to see that what Providence has given to the people is being protected by the man who is responsible to the people. I have in mind, Mr. Chairman, the ForestrY Branch. We are not living now and protect ing our present generation of great and great-great grandfathers. Providence himself has giv en us the forestry: It's our duty to see that this is protected fctr the future generation as well.

If a tree is being planted for every tree cut--this is the responsibility I believe of the Minister, because if you don't do it I think we'll be charged by the generations to come of exploiting, steal ing, making profit of something which did not belong to us or this present generation, but it al so belongs to the generations to come. The Forestry Branch is a very, very important one; I read your report. I see that considerable good work is being done for this is something that is used--religious responsibility to see that it is protected.

We have your program--the fish industry, and there is something which I cannot under stand. First of all, of course, the future generation will also appreciate the food of fish, which I understand is healthy for the people, but then when we see the total volume of fish in last year's report was 98 million pounds; and then we see the total--no, the total production I see is $32 ,0 00, 000; the total value is over $9 ,0 00, 000; and then when we see the figures of the distri bution of the $9 ,0 00, 000 we see that the fishermen gets three and a half and it's marketed for $6,0 00, 000.

I still don't know where the other money disappears. We don't know, but I think this should be very, very carefully watched. There is no necessity for the present time of a fisherman getting, not that Pm surprised, such a low price for his products and the household ers should pay such a tremendous sum for a pound of fish. It's known to every honourable mem ber here. I feel that there are other departments in the estimates which has been very carefully taken care of. For instance, the question of the Crown lands .

I think that, according to the re port we have received last year, there is still a considerable large number of Crown land- acres of Crown land--which is still suitable for mixed farming, immigrants, new settlers. I think everything possible should be done that this land be settled, cultivated, establish individu al subsidy for families who wish to settle with the help that the government can give them for this settlement. First of all , the land will be cultivated; secondly, there's certain settlers that without funds could still avail themselves of settling on a farm.

If they are going to buy a ready farm at this time I think the amount of money they would have to pay is almost prohibitive . At the same time I'm sure that the newcomers would probably settle here rather than go around the streets without work for a year, or two and three; rather than stand all day long on a cold day around the employment offices; and rather they come home every night without a cent in their pockets they may decide to go on Crown land if they are assisted. They have no money- they have no finance to buy a farm on their own.

I know that two or three years ago quite a few settlers--! don't know this year--have settled on Crown land. The se::ond thing is, what is March 3rd, 1960 Page 1183

(Mr. Gray, cont'd. ) .. being done with Crown land which is unsuitable for settle ment or culti vation? What is being done? Are they just growing, so to speak, wild ? Is the department try ing to find out if there are any minerals in there where private companies probably would not in vest any money for finding it? Can trees be planted on th ere? I realize there is a lot of land unsuitable at all--in the marshes and what have you. But I think something could be done to at tract one man, one family, two, ten. That would be something worthwhil e. With these few ramarks, Mr.

Chairman, I am praying that the Minister would realize the responsibility that is put in his charge, namely, a gift of Providence, to be used for the people and not for private benefit; and also to see that this gift is being protected and perpetuat ed, not only for this present generation:, but for generations to come . MR. ORLIKOW: Mr. Chairman, I rise to pursue for a very short while the question raised by my honourable friend from Inkster. I must say, Mr.

Chairman, that I was amazed, more than amazed I was dismayed, and I must say that I simply can't understand the statement which the Honourable Minister made that we will receive, in revenues from the mines , $355 ,0 00 . That's the figure I copied down .

In the survey made by the Dominion Bureau of Statistics on c: the tax rate by the various provinces on mining operations they showed that in the Province of Nova Scotia the rate on net profits is from seven to nine percent; in Quebec it's from four to seven percent; in Ontario it varies from six percent for companies making from $10 , 000 to $1 million, to 11% for co mpanies making $1 million to $5 million to 12% for com panies making over $5 million.

In Manitoba the rate is eight percent for comp anies making over $10, 000 net profit; in Saskatchewan it varies from three percent to 12 1/2%, three percent for co mpanies making from $10, 000 to $10 0, 000 a year, five percent for companies making $100, 000 to $500 ,0 00 a year, 7% to co mpanies making $500 ,0 00 to $1 million, and 12 1/2% to companies making over $1 million a year net profit; and in the Province of British Columbia they charge a flat rate of ten percent on all companies making in excess of $25, 000, with the exception that new minBs are exempted for the first three years of production. Now, Mr.

Speaker, they also give the revenue received by the provinces from natural resources. Beginning at the top with Albe rta, becaus e of its oil and natural gas, for the year ending March 31 st, 1958, $13 1 million; British Columbia, $42 million; Quebec, $33 million; Ontario, $33 million; Saskatchewan, $26 million; Manitoba, $4, 423 ,0 00. Now that was the year ending March 31 st, 1958. There may be some variations in that but I presume th:o.t we 're not too far out.

Now I recognize the fact that one can not co mpare Saskatchewan with Manitoba be cause of the fact that a very large percentage of the money received from Saskatchewan is re cei ved in the field of oil and natural gas; and I recognize that no province can get out of line be cause we have in fact such tremendous competition, not only between the provinces but between Canada and the United States. And in a field like oil, with other countries, if we charge too much in Canada for Canadian oil, the companies which are largely international in scope will draw their oil from Venezuela or. from the Middle East.

But I want to point out to this House what they receive in the Province of Saskatchewan. Now again we can •t quite compare because the resources which they have are substantially dif ferent than ours, and their break down may be a little different than ours; but here are the fig ures for their 1958-1959 year, the last figures which I have been able to receive.

From quartz and uranium, for lease rentals , royalties, and other fees, they received $2, 744, 000; petrole um and natural gas, and I say right away that we can't compare what we get with what they get anymore than they can compare favourably what they get in Saskatchewan as com pared to what the Provinoe of Alberta gets, but they got over $18 million; for alkali products they got $93 , 000 ; for chlorine , $9, 000; for coal, $62 , 000 ; for potash, $11 0, 000; for salt, $18, 000; and from the mineral tax, and I presume this is largely probably in the field of The Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting, between acreage tax and the producing tax they got $1, 251, 000; for a total of 22 1/2 million doll ars.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I say again that I am not one who believes in making the tax so high that tl:i.e co mpanies won't come in, but the fact is that in Saskatchewan they have had a much more rapid growth in the field of minerals and natural resources than we have. In the field of minerals, from a production of $36 million in 1949 they grew to a production in the year 1958 of $210 million. And if you talk in terms of the percentage of Canada's total producti on, they jumped from four percent in 1949 to ten percent in 1958. So in fact, Mr. Chairman, Page 1184 March 3rd, 1960

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd. ) .. they did not, with their policy, drive the companies 'out. The com panies came in and the companies did well. As I say, the production grew from $36 million to $210 million in less than ten years. Now, Mr. Speaker, ln industrial minerals, from 1957 to 1959 their production grew from $10, BOO, 000 to $14, 825, 000, so they didn't chase them out in that field either. They are developing, not as rapidly as we are; they haven't found a site the size of Thompson but they are developing, Mr. Speaker.

The thi.ng that bothers me is that we are--I agree with the Min ister we have a very favourable development at Thompson. Hudson Bay Mining & Smelting is moving into the new developments which the Minister spoke of, but I have in front of me, Mr. Chairman, an order for a return tabled at the request of the Honourable Member from Fisher showing the monies received from royalties, from rentals, and from stumpage, from a number of companies . Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting--a very profitable company to its shareholders, and I'm not complaining about that, a very fair company to its workers.

It pays amongst the highest rates to its workers that any company ln Canada pays, but what do I see for the year ending--for the fiscal year 1958-'59 --what did this province get from the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company? In royalties, $25, 000 and a few odd cents, I'm not going to list them ; in rentals, license, permits and fees, $38 ,0 00. From Sherritt Gordon Mines we received $95, 000 in royalties ; $8,0 00 something in rentals. From Canada Cement Company, and Can ada Cement is a part of a chain, one of the most profitable industries in this country. The Hon ourable Member from St.

George talked about the combine in fishing. I don't know much about the combine in fishing, but if there ever was a combine in this country it's the combine which has to do with cement. And what do we get from the Canada Cement Company which is taking thousands of tons of material out of Steep Rock? $4, 976 in royalties; and $7, 406 in rentals. We do a little better from Manitoba Paper Company in terms of stumpage, but not much. Now, Mr. Chairman, I am not one who wants to drive the companies out of this prov ince.

I'm suggesting to the Minister that other provinces are doing much better than we are, and I for one would join with the member from Inkster in suggesting to the Minister that the rate ought to be such not to drive the companies octt but the rates ought to be such that the raw mat erials and the resources which are used, and inasfar as mining companies are concerned, I suggest to the members of this committee it's even worse than when you talk about the forest products.

Because it is possible, through co-operation between the government and the com panies, to see that through natural methods of reforestation and through tree planting that we will have an industry for possibly for all time, although we haven't done the job that they've done in some countries like Sweden and Norway. But it is possible to see that the tree resour ces will be maintained, but when we talk about minerals, Mr. Chairman, this is , once they're taken they're gone and they're gone permanently.

And I would like--possibly you can't do it now, but I would like the Honourable Minister to bring us a statement of what we get in the way of taxes, royalties, and rentals from the min ing companies and to explain to me how it is possible for a company as profitable as the Hud son Bay Mining and Smelting to pay so little to the people of Manitoba as the Minister has sug gested. And also, while I'm on my feet, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to get from the Minister, if I can, an explanation of what the International Nickel Company will pay to the Province of Manitoba, as it goes into production, in terms of taxes on the resources which they will ba tak ing from this province in Canada. MR. PETER WAGNER (Fisher) : Mr. Chairman, if I may add a few words.

At the be ginning I would like to congratulate the Minister because as far as I'm concerned, as far as I had any dealings with him, I received very co-o perative action and we seem to be co-operating today on all sources of the House, even we are going to the co-operative movement, Private Members ' Day on Tuesday, so that's co-operation. I will be very brief, but as I heard the Minister state on his forestry department I would like to bring once again to the House the at tention of farmers obtaining lumber permits.

Since 1930, when that Act was come into being, and it's 30 years ago and still we are functioning under the same Act, and it's surprising in this jet atomic age when everything seems to be going with speed and we are still under the same old Act 30 years ago. As the members will recollect even the Farmers' Union present ed a brief that it is not satisfactory to the farmer of today to have curtailed him to 15,0 00. They would appreciate very much to have 30, 000. I'm not going to dwell, because I dealt with March 3rd, 1960 Page 1185

(Mr. Wagner, cont'd. ) .. it I believe two sessi ons already in a row, so I'm going to skip and ju stbri ng it to the Minlster'e: attention and poss ibly he will look into the matter. I also overheard him talking about lakeshores and I want to bring to his attention that what I have experienced in Lake Manitoba and Lake Winnipeg. For some reason or the other the private people will g0 to any lake and they want to buy the shore, the lakeshore and they buy it and naturally it's a nice place for anybody to go there to have a swim or put down his boat.

I must admit that I came in with my friends to Lake Manitoba shore and I parked my car without knowledge that this was a privately-owned little lot and we were chased out. They told us , "you better move away". There've been a lot of people. I was chased out and another group came in, and another group was chased out and this carried on, and then we were a large group and . we got together and we discussed and then somebody came with the solution saying that the gov ernment should look into this, that certain yardage from the water should be for the public use and then further the private people can buy.

Now turning back to this Game Branch. I'm very much concerned as you very well know, even when the Minister was speaking he looked my way when he came down to the predator con trol in the Game Branch . I have complaints upon oomplaints in my area. Sometimes in my early days I was je alous when I heard somebody say that there was a terrific amount of ducks, a terrific herd of deer destroying farmers ' crops. I felt I'd like to go and see , but not anymore, because actually they are a menace.

And just to bring to attention, as I said earlier in this ses sion, the farmer lost 60 acres of flax, not due to the snowfall. The Honourable Minister of Ag- ri culture says that he's going to compensate them under the snowfall. That's fine. I appreciate it. But what may happen next year? There won't be no snowfall; there won't be such compensa tion. The farmer will carry a total loss in this case of approximately $4, OllO. Another farmer, 140 acres of oats, say roughly speaking; another $2, 000, on account of deer and ducks .

Just the other day I received a_ letter from Inwood, just 50 miles o!lt of the city, and I feel I should read it to the committee. February 20th, 1960. "Dear Mr. Wagner: This fall I did not get my crop off before the snow so the deer have moved in and have eaten nearly 2, 000 bushels of grain. I wrote to Mr. A. P. Davey, the Chief Game Warden, and he answered and said that there was nothing that he could do. A game warden called in and he, too, said there was nothing he could do, so I th.ought that I would write to you and enquire as to whether you could have anything done about it.

The deer come in feeding every night from miles around, and nothing is done. I hope some action will be taken. Yours truly, Ralph Gilson ". So t.'lese farmers are really in a dilemma. PFA does not cover them as we know. Possibly we should get after the Federal PF A Department that they should include a clause in there that these people would be compensated and naturally, again I refer myself to the Farm ers' Union brief; just read one paragraph: "Wildlife game is under the protection of the Provincial Government making it illegal for the farmer to protect his crop by taking measures against the game.

We therefore request that a survey be made and the Provincial Government compensate the farm ers for damage done". Now this is government wild game. As a matter of fact the people of Manitoba, but why should an individual farmer carry the loss ? As a matter of fact the hunters specialize in that, the licenses and so on and so forth. Now going in a speed to predator control. At this point I must commend the Minister of the day. I was really happy and I appreciate his co-operation, since he just took his office when that incident occurred, which the Honourable Member for St.

George stated in Sleeve Lake area that the wolves were destroying cattle, two or three by the day. I had some difficulties of getting a hold of him because at that particular time he was at Lac du Bonnet. I tried to get the Honourable the First Minister.

He was away out of the city and I even got in touch with the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce, and then he was kind enough--he got hold of the Minister of the day at Lac du Bonnet, and Lac du Bonnet Minister 'phoned me to Fisher Branch and it was vice versa and we were chasing up and down, but anyhow I must say that I appreciate the co-operation of these people.

While we were exchanging 'phone calls which cost me quite a bit, I did not reverse the charges until the Minister told me, so possibly I should get reimbursement from the government, but in the meantime I appreciate also the co operation ·c:f the Game Branch . They were doing their best what they could but they were await ing on the Minister's decision. Nevertheless, out of our delegation outcome --the Minister was very active and he did curtail the killing of the cattle for the last two weeks of the season. Page 1186 March 3rd, 1960

(Mr. Wagner, cont'd .) .. Possibly it was fortunate enough that the snow fell and the cattle were removed from the area. But I must express the disappointment, the hard feeling on be half of those farmers that we were turned down on the compensation, and if I .remember cor rectly the figures, it was 35 head of cattle destroyed, and as the Honourable Member for St. George said that one particular farmer lost eight or nine head and others three and five and so on. I did not inspect myself the area. Possibly there could have been some other causes to that but I'm not so sure.

What I was told I'x:n expressing it to the government. Nevertheless, I overheard the Minister say that he has three professional hunters in the interlake area. I appreciate it very much, bat I understand that they are to mQVe. I had drawn to my attention that possibly we are not going to have trouble only with wolves in 1960 because there was already some grievance made that these magpies that they call and ravens, they are equally as bad or sometimes are worse, because I was told by two farmers that they had to keep their cattle i.n the barns during the su 'llmer days when they couldn 't watch.

What these little birds do, they sit on top of a cow and just pick it through right down through the stomach. --(interjection)--picking warbles is right, and the guts too. I understatrl the Minister of the House says "oh". I un derstand that those ravens are pretty active at Riverton, so possibly we all two or three can get together on this predator control. Now, Mr. Chairman, I attended, not every day, not every hour, to the Indian Confer ence which was held here ln Winnipeg and somebody says that I should be a Chief. Possibly I wouldn 't know the pow-wow for them.

But it was very interesting to me, and if any of you members were there; if you listened to the speeches that were made; the grievance those people made, and they have facts to substantiate it, I sympathize with them all the way along. Particu larly I noticed the Honourable Member for Rupertsland- -sorry he's not in his seat--I believe him and me we understand a little bi.t but hlm would know more tban I do about the lndi an dilemma. But anyhow, I was sit ting there and listening to what they have to say, so I'm not going to go into the fish details because the Honourable Member for St.

George went into it pretty thoroughly. But what brought me into my thinking that a resolution be· passed; and I'm not going to read the resolution, the whereases or anythin

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-2-33
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 2nd hansardpdf 33.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	0ce762b2f0670aae6a366d2aef53c08151368fb4

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