ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXII No. 33A - 2:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 31 MAY, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pate) ANST ETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Stave BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Bath DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S •. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. · MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER,Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKI� Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency . Ste.

Rose Springfiold Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elm wood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordla Swan River Vir den Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charle swood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assinlboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain · Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne River Heights Fiin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bon net St.

Vital Party NDP NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP INO NDP NDP NDP NDP INO NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC NOP PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP NDP NDP NDP PC NDP NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 31 May, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIAL STATEME NTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, I am pleased to inform the House that the corporation has finalized plans to construct a new drive-in claims centre in the City of Winnipeg.

The new centre, which will be located at 1103 Pacific Avenue, just west of McP hillip s St reet, will serve primarily the north central area of the city and is expected to process about 20,000 claims per year. As many members know, the corporation currently operates four other drive-in claims centres in various sections of Winnipeg.

Although these centres have served the public well during the past several years, studies conducted by the corporation indicate that two of the centres, namely, those at 125 King Edward Street and at 445 Kin g Street, have been ha ndli ng an inordinately high number of claims for some time. Sir, construction of the new centre will enable MPIC staff to provide more efficient service to the public, not just in the immediate vicinity, but also those areas being served by existing centres. Mr. Speaker, the cost of the new centre, including land, is estimated at $2.4 million.

Construction is expected to start in September, 1984, and should be completed by early 1985. Stechesen Katz Architects of Winnipeg have been awarded the contract for design of the building and tenders for construction will be called in the near future. I am pleased to inform the House that 13 new jobs will be created at the centre, with the remainder of the full-time staff of about 50 being transferred from existing locations. Mr. Speaker, since its formation nearly 13 years ago, the Ma nit oba Pu blic In surance Corporation has demonstrated its ability to provide prompt and efficient service to the public.

The addition of this new claims centre to its province-wide claims network offers further evidence of MPIC 's comm itment to meeting the insurance needs of Manitobans. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

While we thank the Minister for this annou ncement, although it's not one of the more earth-shattering ones that we have 1381 heard in the House from time to time, nevertheless it's a welcome anno uncement and the construction will undoubtedly provide some stimulus to the economy and will provide some jobs during construction, and undoubtedly will provide additional service to the clients and the claimants to the MPIC. There's no question, Mr.

Speak er, that the corporation, since its formation, has been serving the insurance needs of the public, but I would hasten to add to the Minister that according to some of the phone calls and complaints that I am getting, there is still room for a little improvement in their public relations and a little more human feeling in dealing with some of their claimants. But it's a welcome announcement that the Claims Centre is being expanded to provide fast and efficient service to those that are using the service. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General.

HON. R. PENNER introduced Bill No. 9,

an Act to amend The Liquor Control Act; and Bill No. 10,

an Act to amend The Family Maintenance Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of members to the gallery where we have the Minister of Labour for the Government of Tanzania, the Honourable D.N. Mwakawago, who is a guest of the Honourable Minister of Labour. On behalf of all the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. In the loge to my right is a Member of Parliament, the Member for Selkirk-lnterlake, Mr. Sargeant. On behalf of all the members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

Also in the gallery there are 27 students of Grade 5 standing from the Daerwood School. The students are under the direction of Miss Kulpak and the school is in the constituency of the Honourable First Minister. There are 21 students of Grade 6 standing from the Lagimod iere School unde r the direction of Mr s. Dumontier, and the school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. There are 20 students of Grades 6 to 9 standing from the Riverside School under the direction of Miss Penner . The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs.

On behalf of all the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. SPEAKER'S RULING MR. SPEAKER: Also, before Oral Questions, I have a statement for the House.

Thursday, 31 Mar. 1• On Tuesday, May 30th, the Honourable Member for St. Norbert stood in his place to raise a point of order. A subsidiary ruling was disposed of by the House, on appeal, but the main point remains. lt was raised by the Honourable Member for St. Norbert in good faith and deserves to be dealt with in the same manner. Although the objections raised by the Honourable Member for St.

Norbert were phrased in terms of Committee proceedings, it is clear from his remarks, and the fact that he interrupted the Honourable Leader of the Oppositio n, that he was concerned with the propriety of proceeding with the Concurrence Motion. Our Rule 64(3) makes it clear that questions of order in the Committee should be dealt with by the Chairman, and points of order regarding the proceedings of the Committee of the Whole should not be dealt with in the House. Therefore, the only procedures which could be before the House were the Report of the Committee of the Whole and the Concurrence Motion.

In reporting to the House, the Chairman of the Committee of the Whole reported that progress had been made, and asked leave to sit again, a statement that he reaffirmed from his place shortly after. lt was this procedure of reporting progress, rather than the concluding action of reporting the adoption of a report, followed by a Motion of Concurrence, that was being questioned by some members. The accepted procedure is that when the House refers a matter to a committee, the committee adopts a final report, with or without amendments, and returns it to the House for Its disposition.

Whether this procedure applies to the Rules and must be followed is a matter of question.

There is no specific rule, and our Rule 1.(2) says, "In all cases for which provision Is not made in the Rules or by sessional or other orders, the precedents and practices of the House shall be followed and, in cases for which provision is not made in the Rules, and for which there is no precedent or practice of the House, usages and customs of the House of Commons of Canada, as in force of July 12, 1955, shall be followed so far as they are applicable to the Assembly." In checking the precedents, I found that in 1983, the Reports of Rules Committee were reported from the Committee of the Whole and followed by a Concurrence Motion.

On the previous occasion, in 1981, the Committee of the Whole reported, with amendment, followed by a Concurrence Motion. In 1980, a Rules change was handled in the same manner, as happened In 1979, 1976, 1973, 1972, which is as far back as I went. There is a slight difference in 1977, when there was no apparent referral to the Committee of the Whole. In every case, however, concurrence was moved after the Committee of the Whole had reported, although it must be noted that from 1980-83, the Concurrence Motion referred to the Rules Committee Report , and not the Committee of the Whole Report.

Thus, in the absence of a specific Rule, the instances mentioned above do constitute·a practice of the House. Indeed, it would be strange if it were not so, for that is the reasonable way to proceed logically to a satisfactory disposition. However , the Concurrence Motion now before the House is in itseif in order, the necessary notice having been given, and it refers to the report of the Rules Committee, not the Committee of the Whole.

By moving concurrence In the Rules Report without the Committee of the Whole having first concluded its deliberations and reporting the Rules Report, the somewhat unorthodox actions of the Government House Leader could amount to a discourtesy of the House. Such actions surely would not enhance confidence and trust between the members of both sides. ORAL QUESTIONS Horse Racing Commission - Chairman MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MA. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Honourable Minister of Tourism and Small Business. lt follows upon a report of the so-called shake­ up of the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission. My understanding, Mr. Speaker, is that the chairman and vice-chairman have been replaced on that commission. My question to the Minister is, what were the reasons for their replacement? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Business Development. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to indicate to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that there has been no change to date, although there are discussions under way with respect to making some changes. Those will likely occur within the next several days. MA. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister indicate whether or not he is intending to replace the Chairman and Vice-Chairman of the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission? HON. S. USKIW: I think that I did answer that question a moment ago, Mr.

Speaker, when I said that within several days there will be a statement made on the question of the operation of the commission and the industry itself. MA. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that this would then be the second replacement of a Chairman of the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission within a matter of two years, can the Minister Indicate whether there are some serious considerations and difficulties with respect to the operation of the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission and/or the Assiniboia Downs? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I think it's obvious . MA. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. S.

USKIW: . . . to many people . MR. SPEAKER: The

preamble is hypothetical but the question is valid. · 1382

Tb\11'8My, 31 May, 1114 The Honourable Minis ter of Business Development. HON. s. USKIW: Sorry, I didn't get the comment. Oh, I see. Assiniboia Downs - sale of MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister or his department considering facilitating the sale of the race­ track to a non-profit corporation at the present time? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Spea ker, I'm not aware that there is a keen interest on the part of the present owner to dispose of the asset in question.

If that were the case, then of course, we would be prepared to participate in whatever transaction might be productive and beneficial to society as a whole. At the moment, I'm not aware of any keen interest on the part of the present owner. Horse Racing Commission - Chairman MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Acting Premier.

In view of the fact that the Minister of Finance has recently replaced the Chairman of the McKenzie Seeds Board of Directors, and in view of the fact that the Minister of Tourism and Small Business is considering replacing the Chairman of the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission . . . HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, I have made no announcement about replacing anyone. I said a statement with respect to the Horse Racing Commission will be made in about a week's time. The member cannot then follow and suggest that I'v e already concurred that there is going to be a change. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in that case, may I ask the Minis ter of Small Business and Tourism whether or not he is considering replacing the current Chairman of the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Spea ker, there are many things that are being considered at the present time with respect to the operations of the race-t rack, the regulatory function and indeed the industry questions as a whole. Within about a week we'll be able to give a statement to the House. A MEMBER: The present chairman can plan his holidays, though. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the Minister of Small Business and Tourism may be considering replacement of the Chairman of the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission, and in view eA the fact that the Minister of Finance has recently replaced ... MR. SPEAKER: Ques tion. MR. G. FILMON: . . . the Chairman of the board of Mc Kenzie Seeds, will the Acting Premier be recommending to her colleague, the Mini ster of Education, that the Chairman of the Board of Brandon University be replaced in the near future? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question is out of order. Licensed Practical Nurses MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHE RMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speake r. My question is to the Honourable Minis ter of Health. A few days ago in this Chamber I asked him whether there was any explanation for the concern that was being expressed in Flin Flon, general ly, over the status and the fate of licensed practical nurses in the Flin Flon General Hospital and the Flin Flon Health Care System. The Minister was going to investigate to see what kind of representations he had received in the mail or had been made to his office on that subject.

The question arose out of a lengthy series of letters and petitions that had come to the opposition, Sir, expr ess ing concern for the future of the LPN in Flin Flon. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Ye s, Mr. Speaker, I did just that, I checked the office and I have received quite a number of letters; I have received some from the Health Scienc es Centre and other hospitals.

As soon as it was brought to my attention, I wrote - espec ially the Health Sciences Centre - and asked them to please wait until the O'Sulllvan Report would come in for the role of nurses, especially the LPNs. That's as far as I can go, the boards are re sponsible in each hospital, and it would be interference at this time if I did any more than that. So I hope that, with co-operation, something can be done. MR. L. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker .

To the Mi nister's knowledge, has the Board or the Administration of the Flin Flon General Hospital indicated to its staff that they're going to phase licensed practical nurses out of the system? HON. L. DESJARDINS: This is being checked by the Commission at this time at my request. MR. L. SHERMAN: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Would the Minister advise the House as to where he, himself, would stand with respect to that kind of a policy or that kind of an Issue? HON. L DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, when this was first brought to the attention of this House - I think it was during the last Session - I made it quite clear that I sympathized with the plight of the LPN. That was the Initial and main reason why we set up the O'Sulllvan Commission. I don't want to elaborate too much, I think that would be wrong when you set up a committee if I know all the answers before the committee, I think that would be wrong. 1383

livestock, loss of, due to storm MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Government Services. Cabinet has met since I last questioned the Minister about the goverment's position as to whether or not they would be paying compensation for livestock loss during the storm. Can the Minister indicate to the House now whether or not the government has made a decision with respect to that matter? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. HON. A. ADAM: Yes. Mr. Speaker. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister be generous enough to share that decision with us and with the people of Manitoba? HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker , I'll be making an announcement in due course. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the Minister indicated two days ago certain municipalities that were under consideration for compensation.

There are quite a number of municipalities, Including some in my constituency and in the constituency of my colleague, the Member for Arthur, and my colleague, the Member for Minnedosa, as well, where there were extensive losses in those municipalities during the storm and they're not included in the list that the Minister gave us two days ago. Can he tell us whether or not he is simply telling people within those municipalities and telling those local governments that they should not bother to make any application to the government? HON. A. ADAM: No, Mr.

Speaker, I'm not telling those municipalities any such thing. I might add that when an announcement is made in regard to the assistance for municipalities that were in the brunt of the storm, it will be because there's a legitimate reason for providing that assistance and not because of questions raised by the opposition of the House. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister of Government Services. People who have suffered livestock losses in that storm consider their requests to be legitimate, and I think the Minister should recognize some urgency.

I'll ask him if he doesn't recognize some urgency in making a d&cision one way or the other because livestock that were lost a number of weeks ago, of course, are in a situation where the evidence of the losses is rapidly deteriorating, Sir, and if they're going to be able to substantiate their claims, it will be necessary for the Minister to make a decision. Does he not acknowledge that there is some necessity to make an announcement one way or the other so that people will know what is the intention of this government? HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, I have announced on a number of occasions, that we have invited those individuals and muncipalities that have had damages caused by the ferocity of the storm at the end of April to write to me, write to the Manitoba Disaster Board, or to their municipality contact or municipality, and make their claims known so that we will know that the claims or damages may have occurred and those claims will all be dealt with on their merits, Mr. Speaker. The Manitoba Disaster Assistance Board is quite competent to deal with all those claims.

There may be areas that were not mentioned in answer to a question earlier during the week, there may be municipalities that may have sustained some damages and individuals in those areas, we will be looking at those damages as well. We understand there may have been unique situations in those other municipaHties that I have not identified and we will certainly be compassionate and look at all individual claims as we have in the past. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister.

Does the Minister now know whether or not the government will be paying com pensation to people for livestock lost during the storm? HON. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I indicated I'd be making an announcement in due course. I can add that I'll be making the announcement soon if that will satisfy the member. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for EMO, and I'd like to provide the Minister with a copy of a press release August 12, 1983.

This press release is entitled, "Manitoba emergency plan gets approval." I will quote for the Minister one quotation from the former Minist er, Mr.

Plohman: "lt is more broad-ranging in scope than the former one and can be applied to virtually any type of peace time emergency or disaster." Given that the former Minister made that statement in a press release August 12th, describing the new Emergency Assistance Plan, would the Minister of Government Services please indicate to the House, and to the people involved in claim damage requests, whether the ice l!torm falls under the type of emergency which would allow claims to be made and paid by the government, so that they don't waste their efforts applying and not receiving anything from this government? HON.

R. PENNER: They're already told that. MR. D. ORCHARD: No, he hasn't. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, he has. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader on a point of order. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the question is repetitive. lt is the same question which has already been asked in three or four different ways by the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside to the same point. 1384

T....,8daY, 31 Mq ·1184 MR. H. ENNS: On the same point of order, Mr. Speake r, and I'm well aware that a Minister doesn't have to answer or respond to any particular question he's being asked but, Sir, the point of order that the Gover nment House Leader raises is not valid. We 've been asking this question; we've just not been getting the answers. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Whether an answer is satisfactory to the question that has been given is irrelevant to the asking of the questions. Members might wish to check with Beauchesne 357 171. (

c) which says that a question should not "m ultip ly, with slight variations, a similar question on the same point," and there has been a certain simil arity in que stions. The Honourable Mem ber for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question to the Minis ter responsible for EMO; will he now simply put out a press release outlining the types of damages eligible for compensation circulated to the various papers in the area involved in the ice storm so that the individuals, municipalities and towns can know for what damages they may make compensation claims? MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mi nister of Government Services. HON. A. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I said on many occasions that the storm that occurred at the end of April was unique, one that we were not really familiar with. The past experience has been primarily with flooding and fire hazards and so on, and we had to look at the types of claims that were coming forward, the amounts of claims that were coming forward, and to try and review what type of guidelin es we would apply to that particular kind of situation.

I will be making an announcement, not because the member is asking th e question, but because I will be making an announcement, in due course, very soon and then they will know whether ther e will be assistance or not. Children's Aid Society - adoption policy MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Mini ster of Community Services with respect to the decision of the Interim Board of the Winnipeg Children's Aid Society not to allow foster parents to adopt a three­ and-a-half-year-old child who has been with them since she was nine days old. Mr.

Speaker, in view of the sworn testimony reported on in the news reports yesterday by the foster mother to the effect that the aunt had visited the girl only three times, didn't hold her niece and didn't show much interest, and the child didn't appear to recognize her aunt during the se visits, would the Mini ster now reconsider her decision not to intervene in this matter? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker , the Honourable Mem ber for St. Norbert, in his

preamble, identified specifically that the matter about which he raises a question is currently at the trial stage, before the court. I would submit, Sir, the matter is sub judice and should not be the subject matter of a question before this House. MR. G. MERCIER: To the same point, Mr. Speaker. I am asking the Minister to inte rvene in the decision of the board. Surely this is a matter within the administrative competence of the Minister.

Just because there is a matter relating to it that is before the courts, I don't think members of this House should be precluded from asking a Minister to involve herself in a decision of a board under her jurisdiction. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Beauchesne is quite clear that members should not ask questions about matters which are before the courts. The first responsibility lies with the questioner and, second ly , with the Minis ter. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , let me ask this question of the Mi nister then.

In view of the testimony that the girl has special needs and should not leave her home, and to the testimony by her foster mother that she has never been away from them for half an hour in her life, would the Min ister, like other Ministers, now consider replacing the mem bers of the Interim Board of the Children's Aid Society for incompetence? MR. SPEAKER: If the matter is before the courts it is improper for the honourable member to ask questions on the matter. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask a question to the Honourable Government House Leader.

I simply ask him, there are upwards to eight or nine Tre asury Bench members absent during the question period today; it hardly makes it possible for the kind of information-see king questions to be asked by the opposition. Would he undertake to get better attendance of his colleagues at question period? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The presence or absence of members of this House should not be comme nted on by other members. Franco-Manitoban Society - buildings· MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker , I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Cultural Affairs. The Franco-Manitoban Society is planning new lavish headquarters, Maison Franco-Manitobaine, that may cost as much as $ 13 million. Has he been approached for a contribution? · MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, given that there are plans, ·as well, for a new major French provincial library being 1385

Thursday. 31 May. 1884 discussed, at a time when the Legislative Library is suffering cutbacks and the Winnipeg Library system is also suffering cutbacks, has the Minister been contacted for a contribution to that project? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There has been discussions with respect to the libraries in the City of Winnipeg and libraries in other parts of the province that serve the French-speaking population and those discussions will be ongoing with the City of Winnipeg and with other affected groups and library boards. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the Minister to repeat the portion; I did not understand whether he said that he was also discussing the matter with the French-speaking community. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I indicated that there has been discussions with respect to the needs of the French­ speaking population of Manitoba in regard to libraries. Those discu<>sions have taken place with the City of Winnipeg Library Advisory Board, have taken place with organizations, such as the St.

Boniface Historical Society, the SFM, and from communities outside of the City of Winnipeg that have provided some of the needs for library services for the French-speaking population in Manitoba; those discussions are continuing. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd also then ask the Minister whether, in his discussions and his priorities, whether he will give consideration, first and foremost, to the existing systems which are suffering cutbacks before he will consider an expansion of either the existing system or new systems. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

The quest ion is argu mentative and makes repres entation to the Minister. Livestock, loss of, due to sto rm MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Minister of Government Services. In view of his answers to my colleagues today in what would appear to be a positive decision on supplying of support, or the providing of support for those people who have lost livestock, Mr.

Speaker, if the answer to the fact that there is going to be no i'lupport, then is it correct that he would not want to mislead those producers and have them continue to fill out claims, as he's suggesting, if there's no support? The answer to the support would have to be yes. If he would clarify that I think it would be most helpful to those people who are asked to fill out forms. Is he asking them to fill out forms because there is a program, or because there isn't a program? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question was hypothetical and it also repeats a similar question to others asked in this House.

Rendering plant replacement MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Environment. Several days ago he committed to the farmers of western Manitoba that th6y would not be left without a rendering plant in the Western Region of the province when the Burns plant closes. What has he done to this point to assure the people that they'll have a place to dispose of their animals, or the by-products of some of these smaller killing plants? MR. SP EAKER: The Hon ourable Mini ster of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Part of that indicates, Mr.

Speaker, that the member is referring to "if Burns closes," which is something at this point in time that we don't know. But if it does close I agree with the member across that it would then present a problem for actually quite a few people in the western part of Manitoba, one, therefore, which we are discussing with people in that area of Manitoba in case that eventuality were to come about upon us, but at this point in time we have not resolved that particular issue.

But, hopefully, if that should happen we will, through the ongoing discussions that we have initiated at this point in time, be able to come up with some form of solution. Flyer Industries Limited While I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could add further to a question posed yesterday by the Member for Sturgeon Creek, at which time I wasn't sure whether he was referring to mufflers or resonators. lt turns out it has to do with both.

The member was referring to some undue noise from transit buses coming from Flyer and it turns out that there are a certain number of buses which were supplied to the Transit System which were originally intended to go to Chicago and the buses going to Chicago do not require a muffler, but are accepted with a resonator which does, in effect, produce a great deal more noise. But in order to meet the City of Winnipeg needs in the immediate term, some of these buses were supplied to the City of Winnipeg and do produce more noise, but are being modified in accordance with the practices of the City of Winnipeg.

So I hope that solves the member's problem. Burns Plant closure MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary either to the Minister of the Environment or to the Minister of Economic Development. Mr. Speaker, Burns and Company have made the annou ncement that the Burns Plant will be closing on August 9th or 10th of this year. Do they have new information that would indicate otherwise, that it's not going to close as of August 10th? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. . HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No, I don't have any further new information . . 1386

Horse Racing Commission - Annual Report MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Leader of th e Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Honourable Minister of Small Business and Tourism. In view of the fact that The Manitoba Horse Racing Commi ssion Act requires the Commission to report annually to the Minis ter within three months of the end of the fiscal year; and in view of the fact that the fiscal year ended December 31, 1983, has the Minister yet received the Annual Report of the Manitoba Horse Racing Commission? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Business Deve lopment. HON. S.

USKIW: Mr. Speake r, I'm not certain whether it has been received or not, I have not gone through it to date. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that it is requir ed not only that the Annual Report be submitted to the Minis ter within three months, but that it be tabled immediately thereafter in the House when we're in Session, would the Minister unde rtake to look into that and table the report as soon as possible? HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, as I recall it, I did raise that question with them and I think we're in keeping with the rule of law, if you like, or requirement, but I will check into that further. McKenzie Seeds MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Spea ker, my question is for the Attorney-General. Can the Attorney-General advise the House whether or not the RCMP Investigation surrounding McKenzie Seeds and former senior officers there, whether or not . that investigation has been concluded? HON. R. PENNER: No, Mr.

Speaker, it hasn't, as I advised the House when a simi lar ques tion was addressed to me some weeks ago, it was anticipated that the report would be received by me from the RCMP some time in the early part of June. When last I met with senior officials of the RCMP, I was advised that the investigation was on

schedule and expectation for that deliv ery date was still realistic. MHRC - directors' positions MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. I have a question for the Minister responsible for MHRC. Could the Minister advise if it is the general practice of MHRC to bulletin directors' positions before they are filled internally within MHRC, and externally? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Ye s, the policy of MHRC is to follow the same procedure that is followed by any other department within government.

If there's a specific position that the member is interested in I would like to hear about it. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister unde rtake to review this matter with MHRC and advise the House whether or not a Director's position has been filled recently without any bulletining? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I am presu ming that the Member for St. Norbert is referring to an ADM's position or a director's position. I'll certa inly check that out. Peguis Indian Reserve MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speake r. My question is for the Attorney-General.

Has the Attorney­ General received an RCMP report on the burning of the bridge at the Peguis Indian Reserve? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: I have received a notification from the Director of Prosecutions, in fact this morning, that he has received a prelimina ry report from the RCMP, and I presume that the Director of Prosecutions is analyzing that report at this time. Driver licence suspensions - parking tickets MR. D. ORCHARD: A further question to the Attorney­ General on a different matter. Last year I believe we passed amendments to The

Summary Conviction Act allowing for licence suspension for failure to pay parking violations, could the Attorney-General indicate how many drivers' licences would be suspended for failure to pay parking violations in the City of Winnipeg if the law was enforced, as was anticipated. MR. SPEAKER: The question is hypothetical. Would the honourable member wish to rephrase it? MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speak er, I would like to ask the Attorney-General, following his meeting with the Deputy Mayor of Winnipeg, as to whether he has an estimate as to the number of drivers who the city would have their licence suspended for failure to pay parking tickets. HON. R. PENNER: I suppose the question is still hypothetical. However, I am not able to answer it, in any event. The question is one properly addressed to the Minister of Highways and Transportation, in whose shop the Registrar of Motor Vehicles is lodged.

I can simply say, because I think this is the information essentially that the member wishes and is entitled to, that there is a problem, that is, the discretionary 1387

provision in The Sum mary Convictions Act permits the Registrar to suspend or not to suspend, and naturally we would want to assist the City of Winnipeg in every way we can to enforce the provisions of The

Summary Convictions Act which are offended against by offending drivers, whether it be moving offence or parking, nevertheless, its a statutory offence and we want to do our bit to assist. There are clearly problems that have been ident ified and are being considered. I anticipate that in a meeting with the officials of the City of Winnipeg, political representatives of the City of Winnipeg, on June 11 th this matter will be discussed and we will be jointly seeking a solution; at the moment I don't have one.

If the member still wants numbers we will be pleased to provide him with those numbers insofar as they're susceptible of being extracted, but that information will come from the Minister of Highways and Transportation. Farmers - assistance to MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, some time ago the opposition raised . their concerns about the taxation of farm dwellings because of incomes received from surface rights leases.

Can the Minister of Municipal Affairs now confirm that the ret urns received by farmers who are recei ving surface rights payments for the use of the land for mineral or oil development will not be used, or considered off-farm income, but will be considered as an income from the farm and will not place those dwellings in a taxable position? Is the policy now that that income will not be conside red off-farm income? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I believe I first answered that que stion in the affirmative on April 12 th; I answered it again during my Estimates in the affirmative; and I concur that it will be considered as farm income for purposes of obtaining the exemption -for farm residences, as has been the case for some time, and as I advised the House several time s previously, nothing has changed. Superior Coach Manufacturing - Morris MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

I believe it was last week I took as notice some questions from the Member for Morris regarding the government, in particular my department's involvement with respect to Superior Coach Manufacturing Limited (Canada). I can report that there has been ongoing discussions and inv olvement from staff of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tec hnology with respect to this company for the past while. The most recent involvement has been in discussions on May 15th, and then subsequent to the day the member raised the questions on May 25th. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. A question to the Minister. Can he indicate whether his department has requested of the Manitoba Publi c Insu rance Corporation that they become involved in the bonding pro blem that that particu lar company is now experiehcing? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm not aware of any discussion with respect to that and the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. I was informed that there was some req uest of government assistance with respect to a Processing Remissions Order Bond problem, but that request for assistance was withdrawn by the company's auditors subsequent to them asking for assistance. Day care centres MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Some days ago I was asked a question about the impact on day care centres of the new regulations that put in a requirement for natural light, and I was asked to identif y how many centres might have to close if they did not comply with this regulation. Mr. Speaker, there was an amendment in 9584, to the licencing regulations which were established in October 1983.

The original regulation requi red that all types of day care centres, whether full or part-time, or school-age centres, should provide natural light; but the amendment removes the requirement for part-time centres and school-age centres because the chil dren are only there a few hours each day. Now the natural light requi rement does remain in effect for full-time centres because children are there for over 9 to 10 hours per day. There will be exceptions, however, where renovations cannot readily be made.

There are only two full-time day care centres which do not comply now with this regulation - the College Co­ op Day Care Centre in Fort Garry, and the Crestview Park Day Nursery in Assiniboia. These centres have until October, 1986 to see whether renovat ions can be made or relocat ion. There are also grants available from them to assist in upgrading to meet the regulations, and if neither possibility of relocation or renovation is practical we would consider an exemption for those particular centres. Payroll tax MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance. Some days ago he indicated that his depart ment was not prepared to hasten refu nds to people who have refu nds due under their exemptions for the payroll tax, but he indicated that he would give consideration to paying interest on those refu nds when they're made at the end of the year. Can he advise the House and the public whether he has made that decision now? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance. 1388

HON. V. SCHROEDER: No, Mr. Speaker, Cabinet has not yet had an opportunity to review that. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Min ister of Health, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. ORDER PLEASE.

MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Sup ply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Healt h; and the Honourable Member for Burr ows in the Chair for the Department of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health. CONCU RRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - ENVIRONMENT AND WORKPLACE SAFETY AND HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santoa: Committee, please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply shall be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of the Environment, Workplace Safety and Health. As is customary, we shall begin with the opening statement from the Honourable Min ister res ponsible for the department. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At the outset, permit me, Mr. Chairman, to say that it is indeed a pleasure for me to present the 19 84-85 Estimates of the Department of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health, my first Estimates as a Minister and only the second Estimates of this as a department.

The department has the responsibility for ensuring that the quality of the indoor and outdoor environment is conducive to healthy and enjoyable living and working conditions. Depart mental activities serve all citizens in ail regions of Manitoba, and are directed toward ensuring that there is adequate legislation, regulation and subsequent enforcement to maintain and improve the natural and workplace environment. These regulatory and enforcement activities are supported by resea rch. As the departmental name indicates, there are two key areas of activity in which the department is engaged.

They are environment management and workplacs safety and health. I will address environmental management issues first. One of the principal areas that the department has been engaged in and will continue to be engaged in relates to the area of dangerous goods. The department is embarking upon an integrated approach to the management and control of dangerous goods, including handling, transportation, storage, disposal and labelling. This approach is to be implemented in the workplace, on the road syste ms, at the point of manufacture and at disposal sites.

This includes a new Dangerous Goods Handling Act and Transportation Act which I expect to introduce during this Session. Another key area the department is engaged in on the environmental side is the Mosquito Cont rol Program. In 198 3-84, muni cipali ties were given assistance for mapping and larviciding programs through the provincial Jobs Fund, and this program will continue in 1984-85 as a departmentally-financed program. · In 19 83-84, an extensive monitoring program was mounted while the Western Equine Encephalitis was an issue. Associated with the W.E.E.

Program, a monit oring steering committee and an interdepartmental review committee were formed. The recommendations of these two groups will formulate the basis on which the 1984 and any future programs of this nature will be carried out. Radiation in well water in the Lac du Bonnet area also received much attention in 1983-84. Extensive inves tigation of radio-active contamination of well water was carried out. The department will continue to monitor this area and provide information to those residents of Manitoba affected by radio-active water.

The establishment and operation of a health and environmental review committee to de .al with issues and co-ordinate programs which overlap the Depar tment of Environment and Workplace, Safety and Health and the environment of health will continue. The department has integ rated an effective emergency response service within the department between Workplace Safety and Health and Environment which effectively and efficiently uses the resources from both sides of the department.

With respect to the issue of mercury in fish, the province Is embarking on a long-term program of education and monitoring with regard to mercury in fish in recr eational fishing areas of the province. To that effect , the pamphlet which some of you may have already seen, is in the process of being distri buted where fishing licences are normally obtained. The province is also continuing its participation in the Canada-Manitoba Mercury Agreement to address the question of mercury in fish on the Churchill River Diversion System.

Acid rain is an important environmental area in which the department will continue to have involvement. The province co-operates both with its sister western provinces and with the national efforts to develop an effec tive acid rain strategy. Ongoing activities within the province Include defining areas sensitive to acid rain, moni toring precipitation and monitoring ecosy stems. With respect to water quality, the department continues to work co-operatively with local government and Canada to develop and implement solutions to Red River quality problems through and downstream of Winnipeg.

The department remains involved In the ongoing concern of lead in soil within the City of Winnipeg. Having Identified and addressed the problem of lead in the soils of the boulevards and playgrounds in the We ston area, the province will continue its surveillance program In Winnipeg and other centres to be assured that no similar problems exist. 1389

The department will continue to focus its efforts on the protection of the water quality of Shoal Lake so that the City of Winnipeg and the residents of Shoal Lake will continue to enjoy safe drinking water. These efforts include negotiations between the four parties toward assured long-term protec tion of Shoal Lake and technical assistance to local residents to solve sewage and solid- waste problems. In discussing areas of environmental importance to the province, it is important that the activities of the Cle an Environment Commission also be address ed.

In 1983-84, the commission was involved in the review of many projects which im pact on the Mani toba Environment. In the coming year, the commission again expects to be extremely active in a number of projects including the continuation of hearings with respect to th e province's Hazardous and Special Waste Management Program. Such public hearings by the Clean Environment Commission are consistent with the depart ment 's comm itment to extensive public consultation with all interested parties regarding new government init iatives.

A series of hearings are planned with respect to the province's water quality objectives; a review of a proposal concerning the alteration or replacement of the City ot Winnipeg sludge beds; a continuation of public hearings which began in 19 83- 84 in connection with the City of Brandon sewage treatment facilities and I expect in many other areas. The second key program area with the Department of the Environment and Workplace Safety and Health is the Workplace Safety and Health Division. Functioning under The Workplace Safety and Health Act, the division's goal is to make Manitoba workplaces safe and healthy.

As a resu lt of amendments rece ntly passed under Bill 87, there will be increased empha sis placed on the individual workplace. Specifically addressing the passage of Bill 87, th ere are th ree key areas of amendment provided in that bill. These are: 1. Strengt hening the right to refuse dangerous work without fear of discrimination; 2. The creation of mandatory safety and health comm ittees or representatives in the workplace; 3.

Two days of paid mandatory educational leave annually for safety and health committee members and representatives to allow them to become more knowledgeable with respect to safety and health issues. The thrust initiated through Bill 87 will reduce the costs of Workers Compensation in the long term. The ultimate goal of the department is the preve ntion of occupational ill ness and injur y. In addition, the Workplace Safety and Health Division is currently undertaking a number of other related projects including the revisions and implementation of various regulations and programs.

Two other areas of the department bear mention: The Worker Advisor Office and the Community Relations Branch ... MR. A. DRIEDGER: We were just deciding whether you had any support at all. You've got a little bit drummed up now. HON. G. LECUYER: There was a caucus meeting there taking place with the Member for Emerson - (Int erjection) - well, AI, I thought that's what you were on that side for. As most of you will recall, we officially commenc ed operation of the Worker Advisor Office on September 17, 19 82.

In addition to advocating for injured workers, the �orker Advisor Program has been pro viding educ ational seminars to workers and emplo yers. The Community Relations Branch of the department has planned the establishment of a new departmental resource centre for 19 84-85. This centre will allow greater access for the general public to both Environment and Workplace Safety and Health related material. The Commu nity Relations Branch will be co­ ordinating the second phase of the Workplace Safety and Health Public Education Program.

As most of you will recall, the first phase of this program was initiated in fiscal year 19 83-84, and I am advised that this program was extremely well-received by the public-at­ large. lt should be noted that there have been several organizational changes in this new department to integrate related government programs. With the establishment of the Department of Envir onment and Workplace Safety' and Health as a new department, Dr. Thomas Owen was appointed Deputy Minister , effective September of 19 83.

As well, effective April 1, 1984, the Planning, Research and Evaluation Branch was created to provide central ized support service to the department. Also effective April 1, 1984, the Mines Safety and Health Inspection Branch was transferred to this department from the Department of Energy and Mines. This transfer, as most of you will recall, had been proposed and discussed for a number of years by unions, companies and the government as well as having been mentioned or referenced in the Wright Report. As a result of considerable study, the transfer has now been made.

The mines inspectors will continue to enforce reg ulations under The Mines Act now in existence. I also anticipate that the draft of the proposed new regulations and relevant sections of The Mines Act will be adopted under The Workplace Safety and Health Act. A final item of organizational change within the department relates to the transfer of the Transportation of Dangerous Goods unit from the Depart ment of Highways, effective April 1, 1984.

Through discussion between the two departments, it was agreed that it would be of substantial benefit to the province to have all areas relating to dangerous goods or hazardous materials housed in one department. Given the focus regarding hazardous and special waste, it was det3rmined that the Department of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health would be the most ;_ ppropriate place for that unit to be located. I wish to touch on staff redeployment within the department.

Due to the resource li mitations and focussing on certain key program areas such as hazardous waste, it was necessary to internally redeploy a significant number of staff. In total, some 35 positions were affe cted. The department is making progress in effe cting these changes, but we expect these changes to have minimal impact on staff and limited service implications. The significant point regard ing structure 1390

Thuraday. 31 M.ay, 1984 of the department that I wish to hi ghl ight is the "flatness" of its management structure. The department functions with all directors reporting directly to the Deputy Min ister. This, Mr. Chairman, concludes my introductory remarks, but in closing, I would like to publicly thank my staff for their support, dedication and hard work in assisting me not only to achie ve our goal of making this a success fully in tegrated and efficient department, but also for the profes sionalism with which they have addressed their efforts for the benefit of all Mani tobans. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr.

Min ister. In accordance with the procedure of practice in this Comm ittee of Supply, the Chai rperson is now calling .Jpon the main opposition critic if he so desires, to give his reply to the Mini ster's opening statement. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. lt is not the intention of myself as the chief critic or the Member for Gladstone as deputy critic, or any of the other members to try and take away any of the advice and the in telligence that will be emanating from the Ho nourable Min ister as we proceed through his Estimates. lt's not our intention to show the public and to everybody who comes to listen to these meetings how much we know about the depart ment, but to find out whether the Min ister kn ows what his department's about, and thP.re'll be many many questions conce rning that.

I was kind of hoping that the Honourable Minis ter would give an organizational chart as he did make some refere nce about the redeployment but I would hope that if there was an organizational chart available that it could be distributed before we get too much further into the Estimates. I just wanted the Honourable Mi nister to be aware also about how we as opposition seem to feel that the Department of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health is of great imp ortance, possibly more so than the Honourable Mini ster's colleagues who seem to be dwindling in.

We do have a great inter est in this particular department because it is to the safety and health of all of the people of the Province of Manitoba. I would just like to make a comment that I am very very pleased that the people that are here - there are three members .. MR. CHAIRMAN: No reference to the absence or presence of members, please. MR. A. KOVNATS: If I can, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make a remark that there are three constituents of my area, Niakwa, here and I'm quite pleased to see that, in effect.

We will be touching on a lot of items and it's going to get down to a pretty serious discussions before too long. lt starts off in a very nice manner but I think there are going to be some points of contention that will lead to some pretty heated debate, I think, as we progress. We're going to be touching on the environment in the City of Winnipeg, the spraying of cankerworms, the spraying for mosquitoes, things of that nature. We're going to talk about the im pact on the environment of some of the chemical fertilizers and pesticides.

We are going to be talking about deve lopment in areas where drinking water comes to the City of Winnipeg. We want some assurance at that point that the quality of that drinking water Is not going to be less than it is today. We want some assurance that the regulations cover ing the Environment and Workplace Safety isn't going to be discouraging the development of new busine sses coming into the Province of Manitoba.

We want some assurance that the rendering plants around the province, even though they will be reg ulated, will be able to look after the contaminated animals that rendering plants have had to look after in the past and will in the future, and whether the govern ment is making any commitment to assist these rendering plants to keep the contamina ted animals out of the environment.

We are going to ask ques tions on whether the Honourable Minister has proceeded in advance or is waiting for things to develop, whether he has got his crew together and they are doing any kind of environmental studies to ensure that companies like Alcan will be coming to the province; whether they will be doing environ mental studies on the shipping. of electrical power from Manitoba to the United States; whether agreements have been made, and what type of environmental protection has taken place - things of that nature, Mr. Chairman.

We are going to want to find out whether there are any regulations on some of the containers that are seen along the highway, the plastic containers, the disposable bottles, thi ngs of that nature which affect the environment. We are really going to go through this department from the very top to the very bottom. The Min ister's opening remarks were well-received . I see where the department was started under the previ ous Minis ter, and this is the first time that the Min ister has come into committee with this department . I think that the previous Min ister had it well-organized.

I am not about to condemn what he has done. I'm going to want to find out from the Honourable Min ister whether he has made changes from what the previous Minis ter had set up his department. I know that there was half a Minister's Salary in the last yea r's Estimates; this year, there is a full Mi nister's Salary. I know that the previous Mi nister set up a full­ time Deputy Min ister at that time, even though there wasn't really that much required to start up with, but it has developed into a full-time job. I think that the Honourable Min ister has mentio ned a Dr.

Thomas Owen who is the Deputy Mi nister of this department. We'll be looking forward to having him assist the Honourable Mini ster in answe ring some of the questions as we proceed. I think, getting a little closer to home, that we will be asking some questions on the odours that arise out of some of the locations around the province. Ina smuch as some of these odours emanate right from the Honourable Min ister's constituency - I think the Honourable Mini ster would be aware of that - and whether anything is being done to lessen those odours. There are many many things, Mr.

Chairman, but I don't want to prolong the debate. I'm not looking to show the Honourable Minister how much I know about his department, I think that we will be asking the Honourable Minister to show us how much he knows about his depar tment. There was some discussion concerning the radiation in well water. I knew of some of that, it was just too 1391

Thuradey, 31 May, 1184 much of a passing remark. I want to find out now where this radiation comes from, whether it's from dumping radioactive materials around the province, which I thought was forbid den to do so. But I think th e Honourable Minister is going to have to give us some answers on that. He mentioned about an emergency response service - I was going to ask the Honourable Minister when we get down to it whether this service will be replac ing the Emergency Measures Organization. We 'll be asking some questions on mercury in fish and the pollution in the water and things of that involvement.

The Ho nour able Mi nister keeps ment ionin g th e involvement of the department and the department will be monitoring. lt seems that these are terms that seem to cover an awful lot of things but I want more from the Min ister than just telling me that his department is involved and that his department is monitoring. I want something more concrete than that from the Honourable Minister. I think with those remarks, I'm prepared to proceed with the Estimates line-by-line, Mr. Chairman.

Before we do proc'9ed I think that, rather than on a line-by­ line and if you will recall last year, on the Department of Environment, Workplace Safety and Health, the environmental part of it seemed to be lumped in together. Now I'm not going to say that we're going to jump from one to the other to the other, but I think that, without an organizational chart, it's going to be a little bit difficult for us to just proceed line-by-line, so in fact we might have to revert back to something that we might have missed in the first or second res olution.

I think that with that type of an agreement, we're not out to emba rrass the Minister, but if we can we will, but the se things will happen. I think that concludes my remarks and we're about to proceed . Oh, one other thing, just before we proceed. I'm not trying to take up all the time because I have an arrangement with the Minis ter that we're going to proceed as quickly as possible.

We 're not trying to prolong debate, but I would hope that the Honourable Chairman would allow us to go through line-by-line without really hurrying it to the degree that some others have been hu rried, because it's the Ho nourabl e . Minister's first Estimates and it's the honourable critic's first Estimates in this department also. So let's proceed slowly and surely. A MEMBER: Way to go, Abe. MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we do, the Chair extends a cordial invitation to the members of the departmental staff of Environment Workplace Safety and Health to kindl y take their respective places. Mr. Minister. HON. G.

LECUYER: While the staff is coming forward, maybe I can allude to one or two comments made by the official critic, especially in relation to how we will proceed and, having discussed this with him, I believe that what we want to do is deal with all of Item 1 as one unit. Then, as the member has indicated, I agree that we can, when dealing with Environment, move back and forth. I have no problem with that and, following that, we would probably cover the Claim Environment Commission, then the Environment Council.

From there go to Workplace Safety and Health and again move anywhere you want in that direction and end up with the Worker Advisor, at which time, if that agreeable we would also have staff of the Workers Compensation Baord present to help me in answering questions that might be related to that particular aspect of the dl'lpartment. MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed we are deferring Item No. 1. (

a) Minister's Salary, and so we shall, and I unde rstood this is the consensus of the committee, I shall be calling all of 1, except 1. (a), so that the questioning can widen up according to the main critic and the Min ister. At this point in time, after I have called all this item, the Min ister will introduce some member of his staff. So let me call Item 1. (b)

(1) Administration and Finance, Executive Support, Salaries; Item 1. (b)

(2) Other Expenditures; Item 1. (c)( 1) Planning, Research and Evaluation, Salaries; Item 1. (c)

(2) Other Expend itures; Item 1. (d)( 1) Community Relations, Salaries; Item 1. ( d)

(2) Other Expenditures; Item 1. ( e)( 1) Financial and Administrative Services, Salaries; Item 1. (e)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Honourable Minister. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just before I give the opportunity to the members to ask questions, I would like to introduce the Deputy Min ister, Dr. Tom Owen who, as I indicated in my opening remarks, is with the department since September 1983; Mr. Wolf Boeh m, who 's the admini strator of the department. We have also with us earl Orcutt, who is the Director in the Environmental Control Section, and Norm Brandson, who's the Director in the Environmental Management Section. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MR. A.

KOVNATS: Ye s, I think the former Mini ster should be int roduced also, inasmuch as I had just given some credit to the former Minister in . . . We ll, he's not there anymore and it's just like at a funeral service - you speak highly of him after he's gone . I think that it was set up well and I have no qualms about telling the Minister that I think that he did a fairly good job previou sly. lt wasn't perfect, but it was good enough to get started and it was a difficult job in getting started because there were a lot of staff that were redeployed from other departments to bring into this Environmental department.

I think that it's going to be a very difficult year even now that it has been set up for the Min ister because what we are going to do as we proceed in line-by-line, and we're talking about Executive Su pport staff and Salaries and Other Expenditures. Exec utive Support staff - I would like to know who the Executive Support staffs are? How many are there? There's $232,500 of Executive Support staff. There was an increase of about $1 6,000 from the previous year.

On Other Expenditu res, they are down over previous years, so it looks like the staff are looking after the pencils and the paper clips and things of that nature. Can the Honourable Minister advise us as to who the Executive Support staff are and where they have come from, if he could do so? 1392

Thursday, 31 May, 1914 HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the benefit of the member, there is no change in the number of executive staff in'8 4-85 as compared to'83-84. Including the Minis ter in ther e, we have a total of 8 SMYs - well, not including the Minis ter - we have 8 SMYs and the in crease indica ted from . A MEMBER: Did you say eight? HON. G. LECUYER: Ye s. Increase of funding is actually quite minimal, $17,0 00, due to the addition of one new secretary position authorized during 1983-84, but for which salary funds were not provided at the time.

As well the adjustment reflects a reduction in pay periods betwe en' 83-84 and'8 4-85 from 27 to 26 and provides for staff merit increments and contracts salary adjustments. In terms of positions, there is the Deputy Min ister, the secretary to the Minis ter, the assistant secretary to the Min ister, the Executive Assistant to the Min ister, a Special Assistant to the Minis ter, the Adm in istrative Assistant to the Deputy Minis ter , secretary to the Deputy Mini ster and the assistant secretary to the Deputy Min ister, which is a vacant position for the time being. MR. A.

KOVNATS: Can the Honourable Mini ster advise whether this Executive Support staff all came about from the previous Mini ster hiring this Executive Support staff and from what departments were they obtained? I think mainly the top ones - not to belittle the secretaries - but I'm really talking about the Deputy Mini ster and people of that nature. What is their background really, is what I want to know? HON. G. LECUYER: The staff as I ind icated first of all with the Deputy Mini ster, was hired in September of 1983 as a result of a competition.

The Deputy Minister comes from Toronto and he was a private consultant; the chairperson is also of the Ontario Society for Environmental Mana gement; therefore he has expertise in the area for which he has been hired. His area of spe cialization in cludes socio-eco nomi c analysis, community impact, public policy and survey res earch. In 1974 he served as president of his own private consulting firm, the Owen Consulting Group, which specialized primarily in the public sector, consultation for federal, provincial and local regional governments.

He served from 1976 until he was hired as an Associate Professor of the Institute of Environmental Studies at the Un iversity of Toronto. He has a Ph. D. and a Master of Phi losophy in Public Admi nistration from Syracuse Un iversity and a Masters in Communications from Syracuse Univ ersity. As I ind icated a while ago, he was hired through a national competition and that's about all I can add on that. The secretaries and the assistants to the Min ister were hire d by myself as a new Mi nister in the department and the staff of the Deputy Min ister likewise hired by the Deputy Min ister.

The secretaries in question had experience in the department prior to being . . . MR. A. KOYNATS: I'm not that worried about the secret aries. That satisfies me. Thank you to the Min ister. Is there other than the Deputy Min ister, Mr. Owen, and the se cretaries who come under the Executive Support staff, of the eight SMYs? HON. G. LECUYER: I'm not sure that I understand the question of the mem ber. I've gone through the list and there are no others be yond that list. MR. A. KOYNATS: Fine. Other Expenditur es - what do these items include? And you don't have to get down to paper clips. HON. G.

LECUYER: As the member will notice, there's an actual decrease in that and the decrease is due in the reduction In the travel budget. MR. A. KOYNATS: Is most of the $41 ,000 in travel expenses? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Chairman, the breakdown is $8,000 in Transportation; Communication $8,000; Supplies and Services, $20,000; and Other Operating Expenses of $5,000.00. · MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Does this department have a Communi cations Branch like some others do, or who does your press release work? HON. G.

LECUYER: We do have - and that comes under Community Relations, under (d) - and I can proceed to that immediately if you want, under that section. But as I indic ated, we could deal with all of

Section 1. under any order and I can proceed to answer that. There are, in actual fact, five SMYs in the Community Relations Branch, where you see Salaries projected for'84-85 of $16 4,500 and that represe nts an in crease of one. Therefore increased salary funding for one new secret arial position of $1 6,000 and that accounts for the major difference in comparison to last year. The Operational Budget is an increase of $5.5 thousand which accounts for in crease costs of office supplie s and printing. MRS. C.

OLESON: How many people are actually invo lved in distributing the communic ations work, the press release type work? HON. G. LECUYER: There's one person involv ed in the information. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: In what area, Mr. Chairman, will we be dealing with Shoal Lake? HON. G. LECUYER: Under Environment. The question of Shoal Lake will come under Item No. 2. Environment. MR. CHAIRMAN: No more questions on this item? 1. (b)( 1)- pass; 1.(b)(2)- pass; 1. (c)(1)- pass. · 1.(c)(2) - the Member for Nlakwa. 1393

Thuractay, 31 May. 1114 MR. A. KOVNATS: We're talking about Item 1. (

c) Planning, Research and Evaluation, Salaries of $220,000.00. This is a big jump; we're talking about an additional $60,000 in increase. I would like to know how many SMYs have been increased or have the SMYs remained the same and substantial increases in salary for services rendered. I just want to know why there was a $60,000 increase and, more important, why there is $10 0,000 increase in Other Expenditures. HON. G. LECUYER: Okay, even the Chairman of the Treasury Board is echoing your sentiments here.

In the Planning, Research and Evaluation Branch there is projected for 19 84-85, six SMY's, as compared to five in 19 63-64. As I indicated previously to the members, this is a department which is a very young department, having come together only a year ago, a department therefore which is still basically in formation.

The increased salary funding is to accommodate planning programs un der this dis posi tion which represe nts half of that increase, and the remaining is attributable to staff merit increments and contract salary adjustments. 1 want to add, at this point in time, that through a national competition, the Director of this

section has recently been hired and is coming on staff officially as of tomorrow, but is already here today. The operat ing expen di tur es are essentially attributable to the establishment of the new branch, as I indicated. Although the staff were essentially transferred from other portions of the department, it is now constituted as a unit to provide service of consultation, resources, resea rch resources, to the whole of the department as a unit. MR. A. KOVN ATS: Would the Honourable Minister intr oduce his new Director of Planning, Research and Evaluation? HON. G.

LECUYER: The new Director of the division, and I would like to ask him to come up. His name is Dr. Nick Poushinsky who has a BA Degree in Sociology from the University of Guelph, Master of Arts and Sociology from the Un iversity of Guelph, and a Doctor of Philosophy and Sociology, the University of York. MR. A. KOVNATS: Dr. Poushinsky? HON. G. LECUYER: Dr. Poushinsky. MR. A. KOVNATS: I wouldn't mind Dr. Poushins ky . HON. G. LECUYER: That's not the one standing up. MR. A.

KOVNATS: I don't want any misundersta nding, if he is going to be paid for today because you said that he starts tomorrow, it's not at my insistence that he is sitting up here, Mr. Chairman. HON. G. LECUYER: I am sure that, Mr. Chairman, having been given official recog nition today and having been asked to come forward by the member of the opposition, I'll have a hard time trying to explain to him that he doesn't get paid for today. MR. A.

KOVN ATS: I think on Planning, Research and Evaluation, I am going to want to ask some questions on what plans this department have got for the future, things of that nature; but can the Honourable Minis ter advise where Dr. Poushinsky has worked in the past? You know, what Is his bacckground, and what does he do in the province? HOt.!. G. LECUYER: I was about to carry on with that, having indicated part of his pedigree and his academic training. He has held an academic post at Dalhousie Uni versi ty, the Univ ersity of Victoria and Rutgers Uni versi ty.

He has written a book and numerous academic articles dealing with social and environmental issues. He has been Senior Economist in the B.C. Government responsible for a wide range of strategic planning and socioe conomic im pact assess ment activities. He sat on the Provincial Metal Mines Steering Comm ittee in British Columbia; he was principal and Senior Socio-economic Scientist at IECB Consultants Ltd ., and he founded hi s own consulting firm, Poushinsky Consultants and, as I indicated before, he has been hired through a national competition. MR. A.

KOVNATS: We 'll be returning to what are the plans of this department at a later date. I think, at this time, we're really just talking about the staff and Other Expendi tures. I think that there is a time . MR. CHAIRMAN: If the member wants to ask a question under this item, it will be under this item, I suppose. HON. G. LECUYER: I can answer that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister intimated his desire . MR. A.

KOVNATS: I think what I'll try to do is keep it in the right proportion, and what his plans are for this department at this time, I think it would come under ... there's another place that I thought that it would probably come under. HON. G. LECUYER: lt comes under 1. (d). MR. A. KOVNATS: lt does come under 1. (d)? HON. G. LECUYER: Ye s. MR. A. KOVNATS: All right, that's the next step up. HON. G. LECUYER: lt comes under 1. (c). I'm sorry. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c}. MR. A. KOVNATS: What are th e plans of this department for the future? HON. G.

LECUYER: The objectives of the department in the Planning, Research and Evaluation area, in terms of pol icy, Is to include the dev elopment of policy options on reco mmendations in response to senior management requests In the whole of the department, the identif ied needs of the various divisional sections. In terms of strategy planning, in the long term, we are talking here of devel oping a five-year plan which would ident ify as well the needs for leg islation, 1394

regulation and program requirements. In terms of operat ional planning, we want to increase specific programs planning, and develop a two-year ahead plan. We want to include the co-ordination of all departmental legislation and regulation development and review to be consistent with the needs identi fied through the planning and operat ional activities of the whole of the department.

We would like to program a review and evaluation, effec tiveness of the department in order to be able to provide the justification and the rationale for the activities and the projects that we carry on during the duration of our plan which, as I stated, should be for a two-year duration. MR. A. KOVNATS: The Honourable Mini ster wanted to add someth ing? HON. G. LECUYER: I just was going to ask whether the member wanted me to go on into the specific details of all of the planning, or the legislative devel opment, or the regulations, whether he wanted me to go into details of those. MR. A.

KOVNATS: Not really, you know, I'm not really, Mr. Chairman, trying to prolong the debate. I think that will probably come out somewhere along the line, but what I wanted to find out is whether there has been any involvement with this part of the Planning, Resea rch and Evaluation in the new Alcan plant; whether there is any evaluation or planning or any input that this department is making when it comes to encouraging Alcan and the environmental problems in that area.

In addition, has this department got any input in the Hydro lines that are going to go from Manitoba into northern Un ited States when and if we do supply them with electrical power? Has this department done any investigation on the environment concerning the transferring of electrical power to hydrogen power to fertil izer, things of that nature. What are the future plans? Is it somet hing that we're just going to sit on or are we going to wait for something to happen before we do anything? Can the Honourable Mi nister advise? I'm sorry I mentioned Alcan, I meant Alcoa. HON. G. LECUYER: Ye s, I assumed as much.

There have been discussions and of course I canno t for the benefit of the member - he shouldn't put all of those in the same basket - we were talking about a power line to the States or Alcoa, we're talking about things that have been in very different stages of develo pment. As far as the power line, of course, there have been numerous discussions involving our department and there are well-est ablished lines of communication. There is what is called the lnterdepartment Program Planning Board which addresses this issue.

Before the line can be approved, it will be subject to an environmental impact assess ment review, and the same would have to be true as far as Alcoa. Alcoa, of course, is something that hasn't, at this point in time, proceeded to be at any substantial degree of involvemen t, that having come on board or on stream just very rec ent ly. lt will obviously also have to undergo an environmental impa ct asse ssment review . MR. A.

KOVNATS: I'm not trying to make political points at this point, except that I've just got to mention that if there hasn't been an environmental study on the Alcoa, there just ca.n't be any kind of an agreement to proceed until such time as there is an environmental study and I think enough is said on that. That's a different something, so let's push that over to the side. What about the environmental impact on the United States? Have we got any kind of an agreement with them because they are having some problems - and I'm not going to ask you to solve those problems, Mr.

Minis ter, I know that it's somewhere else - but it does fit in with our whole picture here. What are our people doing to encourage those people who are against the lines going through the Un ited States to allow us to do so, so that we can supply them with power? HON. G. LECUYER: As far as I understand, Mr. Chairman, the corridor itself has been approved in North Dakota up to the border. The point of meeting at the border, and if you're ref erring specifically to the Mandan line is something that's still in contention.

There is still, as far as I un derstand it, not complete approval with regard to the corridor in South Dakota, but I ex pect there are ongoing discussions at that level. The department as a mem ber of the lnterdepartment Planning Board, of course, has been closely involved and discussions have taken place and are ongoing with, in particular, the State of North Dakota to resolve the meeting point at the boundary. MR. A.

KOVNATS: I'd like to ask the Min ister, did we give away any of our protection to get this type of an arrangement, did we give away any of our right to demand clean environment particularly from acid rain or any other thing that the Uni ted States might care to willingly or unwillingly ship to us here in Canada? HON. G. LECUYER: The answer to that if you want a brief answer is, no. As I said to the member awhile ago as well there would have to be an environment assessment review of the line before it receives final approval. Obviously as well, Mr.

Chairman, the supplying of hydro-electricity in various parts of the United States, of course, will mean that the use in the United States of the production of thermal energy burning coal and causing acid rain would be thereby reduced through the use of hydro-ele ctricity. MR. A. KOVNATS: lt's a good sel ling point. Te ll the Mi nister to use it for when he's selling them electrical power. I think that's about all I was going to say on . MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(c)(1) ... MR. A. KOVNATS: Just a minute. As I had mentioned to the Chairman before I really didn't want to proceed that quickly.

We will sort of advise when we're finis hed with the item. Go ahead. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)(1) -p ass; 1. (c)(2)-pa ss. 1. (d)(1) - the Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Community Relations, I would think that this is the department that speaks with all the 1395

Thursday, 31 May, 1184 different municipalities concerning community relations, with those different municipalities concerning disposal areas that are contaminated, where drinking water has been contaminated, where different areas have received some contamination, and we're getting down to monitoring and involvement again - those beautiful words. Can the Honou rable Minister just extend on the report that he made on the Legislature about the different a reas that have been monitored and where there is a level of some danger, and whether there is some that just have to be monitored? HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. I think that in response to a comment or question from the Member for Gladstone awhile ago when I was referring to the staff of the Community Relations

section of the department, this is strictly staff to provide, first of all, communication between the various sections of the department, also to communicate with the public in terms of media awareness or inform them of issues that have an environmental impact for both the Environment.

Workplace Safety and Health Division in the area of news release or publi cations of the department on request, whether it be through the school programs or through the public as a whole. lt's to improve the presence of the awareness of the Environment and Workplace Safety and Health issues in Manitoba as a whole and to keep the population informed of the issues relevant to the department and provide materials from the department on request. There's one more point that I wanted to add to that. The Community Relations Division

section also provides the library function for the department which is used by both divisions of the department. lt is also open to the general public where we invite the member to, eventually, visit the Library

section of the department, which has indeed a very extensive array of materials in both the environmental and workplace safety and health

section which cou ld provide detailed and technical information in a wide area of all issues related with environment and workplace safety and health. MR. A. KOYNATS: Can the Honourable Minister advise where we can discuss the contamina ted well water at Portage? HON. G. LECUYER: That's all under Environment. MR. A. KOVNATS: Under Environment. That would be under No. 2., Environmental Management, or Clean Environment Commission, No. 3.? HON. G. LECUYER: Either (

a) or (b), Control Services or Management. As I indicated before, I am not averse to members going from one or the other at will. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(d)(1) - the Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: No, one other question. When it talks about news releases, and the Honourable Minister had just mentioned it, do these news releases come directly from his office, or do they go through the First Minister's office? Because I am led to believe from a statement that the First Minister made, all news releases come through his own office.

Do they come through the Honourable Minister's Department, or do they come through the First Minister's Department? HON. G. LECUYER: The news releases - the member, for instance, I can refer to specific examples he may have seen and he already alluded to the fact that he was going to refer to that just a few seconds ago, for instance, in regard to the landfill report or statement that was made in the House last week in relation to that.

A news release in that regard would have had initial and substantial input from that staff in the Communi ty Relations sect ion, would have been approved by the Minister of the department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Department of Agricultur e puts out extended information bulletins, and I noticed there was one on herbicides and changes in herbicides.

Does this department liaison with the Department of Agriculture in moni toring this sort of thing, in sending out information to update people on changes in chemical and herbicide use, or is this a duplication of services? HON. G. LECUYER: The staff within the department, or I should say the department, relates to many other departments. That varies, of course, with the issues, but you're quite correct, the environmental division relates in matters of disasters, or having to do with spills in the environment would relate to other departments.

In the particular area questioned by the member, there is an interdepartmental committee which involves Agriculture, and the department is a member of that committee, for instance. That particular committee would deal with such things as pesticides as they might affect cattle, etc. MRS. C. OLESON: So I could assume then probably that the information on these things would flow to the Agriculture Department from your department, and they would dispense it in their agricultural bulletins to be sure that farmers were aware of changes within the chemicals and pesticides and herbicides that they are using.

So probably the information is gathered in your department and dispensed by them, is that correct? HON. G. LECUYER: First of all, I would like to point out for the member that the registration of pesticides itself is a federal issue from the Federal Department of Agriculture. Yes, there are ongoing meetings of that comm ittee which involves both Agriculture and, I believe, other departments as well.

Natural Resources, for instance, would be another of the departments that are '!art of that committee where, yes, discussions if the1 are related to chemicals or environmental impacts of certain chemicals or pesticides where Agriculture might be dependent or rely upon the expertise within the department and then would afterwards, yes, provide information that would be derived from our participation on that committee through its own department, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in the recon ciliation statement for the 1396

Thunclay. 31 Mal', 1984 Minister's Department, there is the transfer of function from Highways and Transportation which, I understand, is the transportation of dangerous goods section. Where might one pose questions to the Minister on the relocation of that function? HON. G. LECUYER: That also would come under Environmental, No. 2. MR. D. ORCHARD: Environmental Management? MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(d)( 1)-p ass; 1.(d)(2)-p ass. 1. (e)( 1) - the Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOV NATS: Mr. Chairman, Fin ancial and Administration Services, what does this encompass? lt's .5 million; is it necessary? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr.

Chairman, the Financial and Administrative Services of the department provide the effect ive administrative support services for the whole of the department, the operating programs of the department. If the member wants me to go through the lists of the functions, for instance, I can do so. They are quite extensive as any and all departments do req uire these. MR. A. KOVNATS: Again, I don't want to prolong the debate, Gerry, but if I could get a detailed copy of it so I have got it for my records, I would appreciate it. HON. G. LECUYER: Sure, we will provide that for the mem ber. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)( 1) -p ass; 1. (e)(2)-p ass. As agreed upon between the critic and the Min ister, I'll call all the items under 2. 2.(a)

(1) Environmental Management, Environmental Control Services: Salaries; 2.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures; 2.(b)( 1) Environmental Management Services: Salaries; 2.(b)

(2) Other Expenditur es; 2.(c)( 1) Canada-Manitoba Mercury Agreement: Salaries; 2. (c)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Okay, Mr. Chairman, I think on the first part of it, the Environ mental Control Services, Salaries and Other Expenditur es, I think that this is where the Honourable Minister has suggested that we pose the questions on the wells that are contaminated at Portage, the radiation problems that we might have around areas where there is radioactive stuff that is buried. I would believe that's where the radiation comes from, but I think that if the Honourable Min ister can advise how and when we find out where these radioactive areas are?

Is it because of areas where there has been radioactive materials buried. lt's something like the medical profession where you bury your mistakes, is this the cause of some of these radioactive problems? HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The question of radioactivity in wells is not one related to southwestern Manitoba, but southeastern Manitoba; there are two different kinds of contaminations here. We are talking about radioactivity.

We are talking about the extensive te sting that has been done, primarily in the Lac du Bonne t area and in the course of the mo nitoring of the radio-activity which cover the parameters of a five kilo metre radius of the Atomic Energy Research Laboratory in Pi nawa, it was discovered that radiation levels in ground water in some locations exceeded the screening levels that are recommended as guideli nes for Canadian drinking water. Te sts were conducted within, as I stated , a five ki lometre radius of the un derground research laborato,.Y, which is not developed at this point yet.

The starting was announced in the weeke nd papers. The tests were conducted to determine the cause of this radiation and to determine if there were any health implications; and it was determined that the radiation problem is a natural occurring one related to the geology of that particular area. As well, there '¥ere several wells in the area where the water was not suitable as a permanent drinking source. Thirdly, that the problem may be fairly widespread in the whole of the Canadian Shield; and fourthly, that the surface waters that were tested showed that it was not contaminated.

Finally also there is so far no pattern whereby we can predict where it will be safe and where it would not be. So we have unde rtaken to respond in this issue by first of all identifying safe public water supplies for the local people to draw drinking water from. Secondly, to design and execute a rational monitoring system of testing to define as much as possible the full extent and the nature of the problem and through that we shall carry on further tes ting.

We are also involved in the question of investigating ways whereby we can mitigate the problem such as a filter system which would enable the filtering out of the radio-active particles; and fourthly, we will continue to inform and advise the local resi dents of the water situation in their area. We are co-operating with other jurisdictions to assemble data and also to advice concerning the whole question of radio-activity In drinking water and more specifically, in addressing a system whereby we could filter out the radio-active substances.

But to come back and to conclude on that particular remark, when I say that from all observations and testing so far, the only thing that can be said Is that the radio­ activity seems to be naturally occurring and has no definite · pattern and we will continue to test upon request . MR. A. KOVNATS: I didn't have much concern before I came in here today, Mr. Minister, but I do now, concerning this natural radio-activity that is appearing In drinking water. lt seems to be widespread or at least the Honourable Minis ter said it could be widespread. How do we know where to test next for radio-active drinking water?

And can the Honourable Minister assure me that this radio-active contamination was not human­ produced and buried by anybody in the past into areas that have now turned into contaminated areas, other than just in a particular burial area? Has there every been radio-active material buried in Manitoba? HON. G. LECUYER: To that, Mr. Chairman, I can reply defin itely , no. The characteristics of the radio-active 1397

Thursday, 31 May, 1914 water could be . . . and the basis and the reason why this testing was carried out was for the very reason that there had been in that particular area because of the fact that the Atomic Energy of Canada is located in Pinawa, there had been some fears and lobby on the part of local residents who opposed the project of constructing an underground research laboratory that the environmental division and the AECL wanted testing done so that we could determine, prior to the development of that underground research laboratory, whether there was radio-activity in the water or not; and it's in doing this testing to establish what the contents of the water was, that we discovered the radio­ activity.

I would venture to say, Mr. Chairman, that if we were to conduct or to extend the testing over probably the whole of the Canadian Shield we would find similar occurrences. That will occur in the water as a result of the normal process of the radio-active substances being diluted in the water; as well we would find in areas where there are particular concentrations of given metal, we w�uld find higher levels of that metal diluted into the water. MR. A.

KOVNATS: Can the honourable Minister advise whether the cost of keeping a vigilant eye on the contaminated area that is being transferred back to - obviously it seems that it was in the Pinawa area - Canadian Atomic Energy Commission - is that the proper name? Are they being charged back for the costs of this monitoring? HON. G. LECUYER: The monitoring for radiation in the water? MR. A. KOVNATS: No. HON. G. LECUYER: Mr.

Chairman, this is part of a departmental program and obviously because the testing has proven that the dissolved radiation in water is naturally occurring, there would be also no grounds to proceed by recovering such costs from the AECL. MR. A. KOVNATS: I understand. I would hope that the same courtesy is being extended to the municipalities, particularly Portage la Prairie.

I think the honourable member who represents Portage la Prairie is here because there was a contaminated area at Portage la Prairie that I have not yet found out who is going to bear the costs of the trading-off of these areas where there are cont amina ted areas in the different municipalities. Who bears the cost of changing and trying to correct a contaminated area in a municipality? HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I want to repeat for the members that the water tests clearly proved in the Lac du Bonnet area that the source of radiation that is dissolved in the water is naturally­ occurring radium.

There are not very many ground water supplies that are based in the Canadian Shield because it means obviously to drill a well for water right in the rock formation. Now, I want to make it clear that when we're talking about Portage la Prairie, we're not talking about natur ally occu rring contaminants.

These are contaminants which were determined to be present on the basis, as I've indicated before, of a cost-shared program between the province and the Federal Government to conduct this monitoring analysis, but it is there because the municipalities themselves have used these particular areas as landfill sites so they're nnt naturally occurring contaminants. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder, Mr. Minister, if you could tell me just when you first started to investigate the possi bility of contami nation surrounding the dump at Portage la Prairie.

When did you get the first indication that we did have a problem there? HON. G. LECUYER: The exact details I'll try to give to the member as much as I can recall. I believe this started in June of 1983 when the first phase of this program began, wherein the landfill sites of Manitoba were, through this first phase of the study, were identified and 760 waste-disposal sites in the province were identified, of which 22 were selected for further investigation because of the very pos sibili ty of environmental implications which were known to be there, or were thought to be there.

Of those 22, Portage happened to be one. The second part of this study was carried on, that is, the firm which was contracted to conduct detailed tests in the landfill area in order to determine the extent, for instance, of the ga ses emanating from that landfill, to determine the contents or the contaminants in the presence of the water in the area, as well. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could indicate just what type of gases is the problem in the area. Is it methane or what is it? What is it created from? HON. G.

LECUYER: The gases found very frequently in these landfill sites, of course, is the methane gas, but that is not the problem that is being experienced currently in the Portage area. For one thing, this is still an active landfill site and, therefore, there are no buildings located on the site or immediate adjacent to it where this would be a problem. The problem there, of course, as you probably saw in the release, was one of contaminants in the water and, specifically, arsenic. MR. L. HYDE: Mr.

Chairman, the number of wells that have been proven to be contaminated, is this limited to the one well site or is there possibly others? l-ION. G. LECUYER: Mr. Chairman, there was only one well where there were contaminants above the normally acceptable level for drinking purposes that was currently being used for human consumption. On the date that I actually made the annou ncement in the House of the results of this second phase of the landfill studies, i indicated then, on that very same day, samples were being taken of some 35 wells in that area and we will, therefore, have these samples analyzed.

I think that we, I believe, will be taking samples; I'm not sure if it's 1398

in July or August, but some time in the summer as well. MR. L. HYDE: We ll, Mr. Chairman, I take it then that the Min ister and his department will be following this up to try to elimi nate any further contaminations of wells supplying water for the area around Portage. My question which, I think, can be the concern of the City of Portage la Prairie is that who is going to bear this cost of relocating this large disposal area? Presently it has got to be a regular mountain there and it's building by the day. I just wonder what is going to happen, who is going to be faced with the total cost of it? HON. G.

LECUYER: Mr. Chairman, the question of providing means of disposing of municipal waste is, as the member fully knows, a municipal responsibility; has always been and is a responsibility in all municipalities. I might add, whether this particular landfill site, even if it were to present no contaminants or problems in that re gard, there is a fact in the municipality and the department, in discussions with that municipality, the municipality is aware that the site was pretty well used to its maximum degree now, at any rate, and there would be necessity to look at alterna tives in the near future.

Therefore, perhaps this is simply going to force the municipality to proceed to look for alternatives a little bit sooner than they mi ght have otherwise proceeded to do so. I also want to advise the member that we will, obvious ly, cont inue to meet with mem bers of the municipality to help them in any possible way we can with technical assistance in seeking an alternative site. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour now is 4:30 post meridian. The Chairperson is interrupting the proceedings of this Commit tee for Private Members' Hour. We shall be coming back to this Commi ttee at around 8:00 p.m.

The House having decided to dispense with Private Members' Hour, this committee will resume immedia tely despite the fact that it is not yet 8:00 p.m. MR. A. KOVNATS: Mr. Chairman, it seemed to me that you did say around 8:00 p.m. MR. CHAIRMAN: Around. MR. A. KOVNATS: This is completely accept able. MR. CHAIRMAN: That is the wisdom of that state ment. MR. A. KOVNATS: Ye s, without knowing it. Well, I tried to correct it, but I shouldn't have. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

While we all realize the im portance of our government to either continue to investigate the possible contamination of our sources of water, whether it be Portage la Prairie or Winnipeg or Virden or wher eever, I'd like to comment on the fact that our A. M. of Portage la Prairie corrected a nasty situation that developed north of Portage in an area that served the Delta Beach, that's what it did.

There was a well there that served the community and people found it quite handy there to just drop all their garbage as they filled their water buckets. lt got to a point where the municipality moved in on it and they've cleaned the site up and moved the disposal area possibly 5 or 10 mile s down the road and it seems to be proving there quite well. Now, Mr. Chairman, to go back to Portage and their problem. Wh at is the reco mmenda ti on from the department as to the new type, if there would be a change, what type of disposing of our garbage will they rec ommend? HON. G.

LECUYER: You'r e referring to the recommendations in the study report obviously and the rec ommendation in the report as an alternative, is to start using new landflll sites - establish a new landfill site. MR. L. HYDE: To establish a new landfill-type of disposal and that will be the most economical system? Or is there another possible solution to it? HON. G. LECUYER: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, obviously landfill is not the only method of disposing of waste materials. Probably you're quite right in saying that at least ini tially it's the most economical.

There is technology available to resort to other methods, specifically incineration, which requi res · the purchase or building of an incine rator capable of doing the job. Some experimental projects are carried on in this regard and I suppose it would be right to say in many parts of Canada, in fact right here in Manitoba - I stand to be corrected on this - but I underst and that there are pilot projects where waste substances are burned to heat buildings and that Is especially tr ue in Scandinavian countries. So the technology there is to dispose of waste materials in other ways.

On the other hand, even then I would still require some landfill site to dispose of the ashes re sulting from such an opera tion. So at this particular point in time in Manitoba, when we're talking about a waste management program, we're far from being there. The alternat ive recommended is probably the one that the municipality of Portage la Prairie will want to look at and that Is, of es tablishing an alternative landfili site. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, it's getting to be a problem, whether it be in Portage la Prairie or in the A. M. of Portage or where it is, to acquire the land that is needed for these.

No body wants these dump·s es tabli shed . Let's face it. They don't want them est ablished around their communities and it's going to be a problem. I would suggest that when the time comes for the city to have to make that move, where are they going to find a suitable location that will serve their needs for years to come? Right in our own muncipallty of the R.M. of Portage la Prairie, we need an additional disposal area southwest in the R.M., at the southwest corner and nobody will give up the land. Nobody wants it and it's going to be a problem.

I don't care where they head, they're going to run into that same problem. Nobody wants a disposal dump on their doorstep. HON. G. LECUYER: I have no doubt in my mind that nobody wants a dump site in his backyard. I don't know 1399

Thursday, 31 llaJ 1184 specifically whether the municipality of Portage la Prairie has made provisions for future landfill sites and whether they have acquired land in past years which could be used for that. At the moment, I don't have that kind of information.

If the member tells me that they don't, I will accept that and I accept the fact that it's a difficult problem to solve, but it is to serve the needs and the requirements of the people of the R.M., therefore they will have to, through discussions, arrive at that solution within the munici pality just like all the other municipalities have to come up with that solution as well. · I, personally, feel that in years to come we will be using other methods of disposing of waste materials besides landfill.

I believe that landfill sites ·are not the end-all answer; they resolve our problems for today but they also present problems In the future. The very example of that is what we know of the landfill site today which was being used many years ago. But the municipality here of Portage la Prairie has, through discussion with the staff from the Environmental Division, been encouraged for, I would say, probably the last 10 years - and the member I believe would be aware of that - there had been discussions started many years ago to start · seeking and establishing a new landfill site. MR. L. HYDE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I'm quite aware that the city knew they were being faced with a relocation at some time. I have one more question, but I don't know whether you'd want to deal with it at this time. I wanted to speak on the disposal of chemical tins and possibly you don't want to deal with it now. HON. G. LECUYER: Sure. MR. L. HYDE: That's fine then.

The R.M. of Portage la Prairie have established a dump that they are using considerable miles away - it's in the northeast corner of our municipality - and I know very well that it's very inconvenient to a big part of the municipality to see that the chemical tins are disposed at that particular site for the simple reason that it is, I would venture to say, 20 to 30 miles from a good part of the agricultural part of the municipality. That provincial road is not in good shape, as has been suggested to me, and I know for a fact that it isn't. But anyway, Mr.

Chairman, I am wondering if there is a possible chance of establishing suitable disposal areas to serve the needs. I realize these tins must be dealt with because they are a hazard to our health and to all, but I'm quite sure there an� probably many thousands of tins that are not being disposed of to the proper area today and it's going to lead to a big problem in the future. We surely need something else, some method to handle this, whether they have a unit for crushing them and disposing them and recycling them or what, I don't know, but it is something that I think we're going to have to deal with. HON. G.

LECUYER: The question of disposing of chemical containers is becoming increasingly a problem to Manitoba inasmuch as chemicals are very much a part of the farming operations today. lt is estimated, for instance, that presently 500,000 pesticide containers are discarded annua lly in Manitoba. Most of these, 60 percent of these, are 20-litre metal containers. If disposed of unrinsed - in fact, it is suggested that they be rinsed three times - they probably contain a residue of some 50 millilitres to 250 millilitres of chemical.

So therefore, when you multiply that by the number of containers, and it's expensive material, there Is in itself a loss to the farming operation. Now we've had as a pilot project started - did it start in 1983 or'82? - starting in 1982 in south-central Manitoba during the summer to collect and to remove the residue from these containers, and to then crush these containers, the residue collected having been carted to Gimli where it was stored until it could be, on a once-a-year basis through contract, disposed of.

In fact, as a result of last year's operation � it seems to me I had somewhere the details in terms of the total amount of residue - yes, I believe approximately 29 municipal corporations participated in the program last year, and the Manitoba Agricultural Chemical Container Disposal Committee has been formed to try and refine our operation. This year, we will carry on with the project. There were approximately 1�0.000 cans crushed from 68 collection sites in 1983. Of this total, 63 percent of these containers were recycled through scrap dealers once the residue had been removed and the cans had been washed.

Sixty-six 205-litre drums of residue were picked up by the Environmental Management Division along with a number of smaller containers which came from various other sources. These, as I indicated, were carried to Gimli where they were stored until disposed of this spring.

We are carrying on with a similar program in 1984, and we expect that there will be an increase from 1982- 83; it has increased and we expect that it will Increase again in terms of municipal co-operation in this regard, and in terms of the number of containers that will be collected and, I suppose as well, in terms of the amount of residue that will be collected.

The department has been in discussion with the Department of Agriculture and, as well, we have discussed with the chemical organizations, the municipal organizations, the farm organizations have started discussions to see if we cannot develop a program whereby we would eventually have a self-finance system of disposing of these containers.

We, as I say, are expecting that we will get some feedback and some suggestions, whether it is through a surcharge on these containers, or whatever other method, we don't know, but this is the type of discussion we have initiated with them and that we will have ongoing with these various groups. M�!. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, we're not through with this, we have a question. I would take it from what the :\1inister has said that the big problem Is of the disposing of that residue in the tins or plastic containers or whatever they are. Is that the biggest problem that you're faced with today?

I don't Imagine there is any problem with the disposing of the actual metal, there is a demand for it, I would take, but I suppose the big problem lies in the residue. HON. G. LECUYER: There are two problems associated with that. first of all, that of the container itself which, 1400

Thurllday, 31 May, 1984 in order to make it viable we have to have sufficient co-operation, which we have had increasingly in terms of the number of the containers col lected to make it viable as a scrap substance. In that regard, increasingly they are moving toward plastic containers; that will present a new problem. Of course, there is the other problem of removing the residue from these containers and then disposing of the residue. So there are, of course, as I indicate, two very distinct problems with that operation. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina state his point of order. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, there are other questions on this topic. If the Minister of Government Services has questions on it, that's fine, but maybe the Mi nis ter might want to di spose of this chemical container because I want to come back afterwards and ask a few more questions on it. So it's a matter of convenience to the committee if the Minister wants to finish with a topic or return to it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Government Services. HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, on the same point of order, I was going to refer to the problem raised by the Member for Portage in regard to waste disposal in the Portage area, but I can come back to that. MR. D. ORCHARD: No, no, go ahead. I just didn't want to switch to another topic. MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order. Mr. Minister. HON. G. LECUYER: If I could, Mr. Chairman, suggest then if the Minister of Government Services would agree, I would prefer that we would continue dealing with that particular question and then move on to the next question. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Is the Min ister of Government Services going to talk about disposal problems? HON. A. ADAM: I'm going to provide information on waste disposal that was raised by the Member for Portage; landfill sites, that's what I was going to talk about. I'm quite amenable to wait, before we leave this question. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MR. A.

KOVNATS: I think that the Honourable Mini�ter of Government Services has every bit as much right to provide services here and to provide us with information If he so feels and then when he's finished, I think that the former Honourable Minister of the Environment can also add to the discussion. I think there's been some sort of an agreement between the Minister of Environment and our group now to proceed as quickly as possible. I think if the information that is going to be provided is of truly important information, then I can't see any reason at all for not allowing the Minister to proceed. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minis ter. HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Chairman, I have no disagreement with the Member for Niakwa, but the Minister of Government Services has indicated that he wanted to move on to another area. The information he wants to provide is in another area and he has agreed to wait 'til we finish this particular question and then he'll come back to that one if that is agreeable. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that agreeable? The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

To the Mini ster, what's the analysis on the residue? it's my understanding, and the reason I pose the question is that I triple rinse my cans so that anything that's left in there, I think, would be as close to water as you could get; but there is a problem with the disposal sites in that they're all outdoors and if you throw your cans in there and it's probably a month, maybe two months, before the crushing unit comes along and, in the meantime, if we've had any rain, any of the cans that are sitting upright, rainwater comes in and that's probably the most of your, I shouldn't say, but I suggest that may be a major portion of your residue that's in there.

What has been the analysis on the residue that you've collected? Has it been substantial chemical content? HON. G. LECUYER: The Member for Pembina is obviously an exemplary farmer and in that regard he is doing what should be done to these containers, in that triple rinsing would leave, in essence, a diluted - I wouldn't care to speculate on the percentage, but it would be a very very minimal percentage - chemical residue.

The residue that has been collected, depe nding where it has been collected and what has been done to it before, in some cases they are rinsing it once and throwing that back into the as part of the chemical in the tank; in other inst ances, they don't rinse it at all; and some cases they rinse it three times. The tests made show that the res idue Is anywhere from 10 percent to 90 percent pure residue. MR. D. ORCHARD: That does in deed present a problem. The point I was making is that if in the majority of cases the containers were ri