L 4 Province of Newfoundland FORTY-FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Volume XLI Second Session Number 85 . PRELIMINAR Y REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush 1• Tuesday 27 November 1990

The House met at. 2 :00 p.m. MSpeaker: The hon. the Member for Number Valley 00 . £1.rI?.iJJat.i: Order, please! Oral Questions Lir_Spea1cr. The hon. the Member for Humber Valley. @!._i4a24f2r4: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister r e s p o ii s ib 1. e for Fore s try and Agraculture.

In view of the fact that the Minister has set up the da:iry quola allocation procedure, a procedure referred to by many in the indus try as just a witch—hunt, and in view of the fact that the Minis ter has a history of interference in the industry since some seventeen or eighteen months ago, would the Minister now confirm that he has instructed the Newfoundland Farm Loan Board not to issue any loans to farmers who would want to increase their dairy herds until the study is finished, and that this action by the Minister is especially hard in those difficult times? Mr ..

E&fl!) The hon. the Minister of Fores try and Ag r 1. c u 1. t u r e .Flicjht: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the first instance, Mr. Speaker, setting up a review of the cluota allocation was not considered by the industry or anyone else as a. witch—hunt, and in the second instance the setting up of such a quota allocation review had the total support of the industry. 1 wanted to correct those two misrepresentations, Mr. Speaker, And Furthermore, I have given no such instructions to the Farm L o a n Board, not to process loans from the dairy industry. Mr.

Noodford: would the Minister confirm for the House whether he has also written the FCC, the Farm Credit Corporation, asking them to do the same, and outline his reasons for doing it? And I would ask the Minister if he understands the d r as t I c i npl I c a t ions ti is could have for the industry in the Province? The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. t: Mr. Speaker, unless the hon. member , is aware of something that I am not aware of I can say to him there was no such letter.

Maybe he should produce a copy of the letter and table it, because no such letter , has been written as far as I am concerned. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Number Valley. Mr 0 odford: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Will the Minister now confirm for the House that his interference with the industry over the past mon Lhs would, number one, jeopardized the viability of smaller farm operations , and two, it will mean losses in 1990-•-91 for, one of the most viable industries in the Province, and that his actions are ill—advised and ill— timed? Mr.

Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. 1r...Fliht: No, Mr. Speaker, the Minister will not confirm any such thing. As a matter of , Fact, I would ask the House to consider this , that anybody who was interested in pubLic aFf airs in Li November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 Ri

this Province during 1987 and 1988 could not open a newspaper unless there was a major controversy with regard to the dairy industry. You had producers against processors, consumers against everybody. So I ask the member, when was the last time in the past two years that he saw references to that kind of turmoil and controversy in the dairy industry in Newfoundland? .Nraijr: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley. Mr. Noodford: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

There was no trouble to open the papers during this past several months to see what controversy there wa in the industry in the Province, I will tell you that. no doubt aware of questions raised during the Hughes lnquiry about L lie u ii u s u a 1 c i r c ti ins t a ii c e s a id u nan s we red q LI e s t ion s a boLl t t Ii death of a Mr. John Thistle at Mount Cashel, in 1967. Further questions, the Minister will recall, were raised about that incident again last week but the police and the Department of Justice officials have declined to provide acceptable answers at least .

I suppose I could use that word - to the family and to the medaa who have been inquiring on that matter . I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if the Minister could advise the House why officials would he unwilling to provide the appropriate information requested by family a n d by m e d i a on t h i s particular matter? A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Will the Ministerl now give a commitment to the House today that when his Committee, the Diary Quota Allocation Commi ttee does report to him, that he will make this report public? Mr. Speake The hon. t h e. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. Mr .Flght: Mr.

Speaker, I will wait until I get the report irom the Quota Allocation Comrnit:tee and then decide whether or not it is appropriate or necessary to make it public in the House. Some HopJembers: Oh, oh! Mr._peaker: The hon. the Leader , of the Opposition. Mr, i d e qu.t Thank you Mr. Sp e a 1< er. Mr. Speaker, I have a question For the Minister of Justice and A Liiorne.y General. rhe Minis ter is Mr._pjLer: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Dicks: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am not really sure what the hon. the Leader o f the Opposition's questions intended.

Is he suggesting that we should release any materials relating to a police investigation to the public? I do not want to lint answer them, I am just not. sure what he is looking For that the Department of Justice should furnish in this case. aker: The hon. the Leade.r of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: Mr. Speaker, maybe I will be able to help the Minister by asking him two or three direct questions Mr. Dicks: Sure. Mr. Rideout: The Minister is no doubt aware From information that now, at least, is public -. I do not know what might be on file . . L2 November 27, 1990 Vol XLl No. 85 R2

. IS internally, but the Minister is no doubt aware that Mr. Thistle was diagnosed as an epileptic and was on medicataon for ten years prior to his entry to Mount Cashel. In view of the fact that the rule at Mount Cashel at the time was that Brothers were in charge of the dispensation of medication, and it had to be administered to the recipient by a Brother, is the Minister concerned that the autopsy showed no sign of any medication in Mr. Thistle's body, thus leading medical experts to conclude that Mr.

Thistle had not been adnianis tere.d appropriate medication at least three days before his death and possibly longer? The hon. the Minister of Justice. : Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I say with respect to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that I am not sure that the House of Assembly is really the place that we answer questions c 0 ii c er iii n g poT i c e i n v és t i g at i 0 n 5 or deaths. I would like to make a general comment which maybe helpful, though. ion. Member: (Inaudible) Mr. Dicks: Excuse me.

As the hon. the Leader of the Opposition knows, this matter, as he suggests, was brought up at the Hughes Commission. The police worked very closely with the counsel to the Hughes Commission and it is my understanding that all the materials were furnished and information was provided as it came forward, and the police were in a position to determine what if any investigation should go forward. To deal further with the matter on specifics, I think, would not he proper in this case, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. Rideout: A supplementary, Mi. Speaker.

Nr. _Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition, on a supplementary. r. Rideout: Mr. Speaker, with respect I must say to the Minister that these questions have been posed publicly by the family and by people in the media. So therefore, in my view, if the answers are not forthcoming, it is certainly appropriate to ask them in the House. Now, let me ask the minister this: in view of the medical reports on the lack of any sign of medication in the body of the victim, is the minister concerned that the lack of medication could have been a factor in the death of Mr.

Thistle, and wouldn't the minister agree that that particular question ought to attempt to be answered definitively one way or another? ear: The. hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Dicks: Mr. Speaker, questions have not been posed to me as minister prior , to the member , bringing them up in the House today, so I cannot confirm that questions are being posed to the Ministry of Justice or elsewhere concerning the. matter. I am always concerned when there is any public suspicion raised as to the cause of death, but frankly I leave it to the police to carry out the investigations.

I would not want to suggest any conclusions that could he drawn from what the hon. member suggests were the results of an autopsy. i th all due respect, I do not L3 November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 R3

think that the House OF Assembly is the proper , place for comments on what may in f:act be a police investigation. Thank you, Mr. S pea 1< er. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on a supplementary, Mr. Rideout: Mr. Speaker, again, with respect to the minister, those questions as I am asking them today have been posed to the ministers officials and to police by family and members of the media and have not been answered. That is one of the reasons why I am posing them here today. Now, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister.

As I understand it there is only one potential living witness to Mr. Thistle's death, and that person was never questioned, according to the public information that I have access to, was never questioned by the investigating officers of the RNC when they carried out their investigation of this particular death, Woulldn't the .minister agree that it aught to be appropriate to question that person as to what light that person may be able to shed on the circumstances surrounding . Mr.

Thistle's death, in view of the fact that this was the only person, according to public information, or the last person who saw that gentleman alive? r Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr.Dicks: Yes, Mr. Speaker. As I said, I have concerns about discussing this in public. I will try to deal with the hon . members question. I am not in a position to either confirm or deny which witnesses were, in . fact, questioned. As the hon. member suggested, there was a police investigation carried out and I will not suggest what conclusions one might draw From these questions , But I will inquire into the matter.

If the family have any questions it may be proper to raise them. I do not think the House of Assembly is a place where the Minister of Justice or the police should report on investigations that have been done or the current state of them. There are other , remedies that are available at law that might include inquiries which have been ordered in the past and these sorts of measures. But frankly it is not for the Minister of Justice to bring to the Houe of Assembly the results or the nature of ongoing police investigations. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. The hon. the Leader OF the Opposition on a supplementary. Mr.

Rideout: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have to say to the minister again that the family and members of the media have tried to get answers to those questions just recently. this was an investigation that allegedly took place in 1967. Now, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that it has been alleged by the only living witness in this matter that Mr. Thistle did n o t die in his sick bed in the sick room assigned for sick people at Mount Cashel as was reported by the police investigation, but was, in fact, found dead on the Floor of the laundry room.

Isn't the minister concerned that the true facts surrounding this particular , incident, whatever they might he, augh.t to be ascertained and ques Lions answered detini tiu ely S r L4 November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 R4

-c [1 . for the sake OF the fa F:iiiy and for everybody involved o n c e and for all? Mr. Spker: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Dicks: I do not disagree with what the hon. member is saying in essence. I mean, the department is always concerned as to the state of any death that may be questioned. What .1 am suggesting is that the House of Assembly is not the proper place to bring these forward. If a particular person h a s a concern surrounding the death of an individual, the proper way to handle that is to go to the police and lay a complaint as regards to any suspicion.

There was an autopsy done, As the hon. member suggests, it did come before the Hughes Commission. I have indicated that the evidence brought before the Hughes Commission has been co-ordinated with the police for suitable and appropriate - follow-up investigations . And I am not, in a position or should I confirm or deny whether any such investigations are ongoing. But I would suggest to the hon. member that it has not been raised with ne personally. He indicates that it has been raised with officials of my Department. That may be, I do not know to whom the matters were raised.

But I would suggest to the hon. member that if the family had been in touch with him or any person has grounds for proper complaint, they should lay it before the police and we would ensure that a proper investigation is followed up. Mr. Rideout: A final supplerrientary, , Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: rhank you, Mr.

Speaker, I think this is probably the sixth question, and for the sixth time I say to the Minister that the family and others inquiring into this matter have attempted to get the answers from officials in the Department of Justice and from the police and just have not been able to get them. So that is why the questions are being raised here in this Assembly, and the Minister is responsible. Mr.

Speaker, finally let an ask the Minister this, in view of - Lhe. concerns that have been raised on this matter by the family, , since it came to public light during the Hughes Inquiry, and questions raised by the media, would the Minister not agree that the only way that the air , can be cleared now on this particular matter is to have a provincial court inquiry? And would he not agree to call such an inquiry?

A judicial inquiry, I guess, would he normal in the case of circumstances surrounding a death of this nature so that the questions can he answered definitively once and for all and so that people out there in society will not be living unde.r , the cloud of perhaps some kind of cover up that still continues -to surround the whole Mount Cashel incident? Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear The hon. the Minister of Justice. qk: Thank you, Mr. Speake.r. As the member already pointed out, this came up beFore one large scale inquiry in the Province.., and LB November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 RB

C [1 it may in Fact be addressed by that inquiry in its final report, and I cannot prejudge that. An Hon.Member: No. Mr.Dicks: Well the hon. member says, no. I do not know why he would say no when he said it has been in evidence before him, and I have not seen the results of the Commission. I do not know why he would come to another conclusion. Mr. Rideout: (Inaudible) to have another look at it. Mr. Dicks: Well the hon. member seems to suggest that he knows the answer and apparently he is suggesting to us that there is a police investigation. The second part of the question, Mr.

Speaker, is that we would have to determine first of all whether or not this would be addressed by the Hughes Commission, because we obviously- do not order two judicial inquiries of any sort into the same incidents. There are many reasons for that. Secondly, the normal process before the Crown ever orders a judicial inquiry, and this carrie up recently in two matters that had been as well in the media, is that the police investigation is completed first.

It is then forwarded to the Director of Public Prosecutions who then makes a decision on the basis of !the evidence as to whether or not a judicial inquiry is warranted. At this point in time I do not know that the police investigation has yet been completed . And if and when it is completed it may well be Forwarded to the Department of Justice and the decision may be taken either For or against a judicial inquiry.

All I can say at this time is I do not know that the results of the police investigation are completed, and it would be premature to say whether or not any additional inquiry other than the extent to which the Hughes Commission may deal with it would be warranted. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Burin Placentia Nest. Mr. Tobin: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance.

Last week I understand that he met with the Newfoundland and Labrador Association For Amusement Operators representing forty companies who employ 180 people, who have told rue that as a result of the decision by Government to permit Atlantic Loto to exclusively operate coin operated amusement machines that their businesses will be severely affected. Can the Minister advise the House, in view oF these representations, if the Government is reconsidering its approval to Atlantic Loto? Mr. Spaker: ihe hon. the Minister of Finance. Dr. Kitcn: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We have listened to the representations made by the group that you refer to and are looking into what they are saying . But it would be premature to say that we are considering changing our recommendation or terms of reference of Atlantic Loto. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia Nest. Mr. Tobin: Mr. Speaker, let rue ask the Minister then, why has Government agreed to require lounge owners to remove video I.. . US November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 R6

ci . . poke.r machines ins talled by members oF this association that Inc t with t h cr11? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Finance. Dr. Kitchen: Mr. Speaker, I will have to look into that. This is the first I have known that Government is requiring anyone to do anything of that nature. But we will check into it. irE.!flL: The hon. the Member For, Burin Placentia Nest. Mr Tobin: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister if he is concerned that the maximum size of this payment of $500 may encourage excessive gambling in the Province? The hon. the Minister of Finance. We are looking at that as well, Mr.

Speaker. rip.iiL: The hon. the Member for, Burin - Placéntia Nest. Mr. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister, has the Minister caused inquiries to he made about the allegations made to him concerning the American owner oF the company which has sold the video gambling equipment to the Atlantic Loto? The hon. the Minister of Finance. Dr. Kitchen: No comment, Mr. S pe a k er Some Hon, Members: No comment? •Mr .Speaker: The hon. the Member r fo Kilhride Mr..........................AyI.!c..r.d: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Premier.

He will remember that yesterday toward the end of Ques Lion Period I asked him a question about the abolishment of the Ombudsman office. And the question was: will this legislation go before one of the legislative review committees? And early in his answer he gave some confusing information once again, or contradictory information. Early in his answer he said, yes it will go to a legislative review committec... And then towards the end of his answer he said, the answer to your question is no, we will not. Will the Premier tell me., will it or will it not go before the legislative review committees?

The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member is obviously talking about two things. The second answer . addressed a second question, a second aspect, and I will get it now and I will read it if the hon. £ember is unable - An Hon. Member: Page 16. ?cr_ill: Page 16, okay. Some_Hon. Members: (inaudible) Premier_Wells: Page L.-16, is it? An Hon._Member: L-16, yes. Some Hon. Members: (Inaudible). £r!Jfier Wells: Mondays. Yesterday Monday? An Hon. Member: No. Premier Wells: Twenty-sixth of NJ o v ember? L7 November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 05 R7

An Hon. Member: Yes, that is right. Premier_Wells: Well, I do nots cc that. There is a question - oh, I am sorry, I see it now, yes. An Hon.Member: Anyway, what is the answer? Mr. Tobin: Mr. Speaker, he is wasting time in Question Period I r!Ii: (Inaudible) Premier Wells : If the Member Fm Grand Falls feels he has the answer, then he should give it to the member directly in the caucus room and not waste the time of the House. I will give him the answer from the Government's point of view. Mr. R. Aylward: (Inaudible) next week - Ms verse: Yes or no Premier Wells: The answer is, like all legislation, Mr.

Speaker, or virtually all legislation, it will go before the Legislative Review Committee. But what the "no' is to, is that no ) the Legislative Review Committee would not be permitted to waste all kinds of funds taking it around the Province. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible). Premier Wells: But that is what I said. Now that is what the "no" was to, and that is what the hon. Member is talking about. So ii: he is going to quote me he should quote me accurately Some Hon. Members: He did! Premier Wells: I am sorry, he did not. The record -is very clear, I am sure. Mr.

Speaker, in case there was any error in what was said, I will review it now in a minute to see, in case the member has any doubts. That piece of legislation will likely be a piece of legislation simply to repeal the existing Act. So there is no necessity to go around the Province and do a detailed examination and waste untold - .E0.Ji2flipjar And play politics Premier Wells: If they do not want it, I will sit down, Mr. Speaker. Mn Speaker: The hon. the Member for Kilbride. Mr. R. Aylward: Mr.

Speaker, when the Premier has a chance to review the question he will see that I asked one question but he gave two contradictory answers to the same question. On Thursday, November 22, I asked another question about the office of the Ombudsman, and the Premier will find his answer on Page L9. It says, and I quote: 'If anyone were to go back and look over the reports filed by the Ombudsman over the past five to ten years one would see that it is a total waste OF Lh' 3400, 000 it costs each year. Mr.

Speaker, in the Budget presented by the Minister of Finance in April of this year he said there would be a saving of some $236,000. Is this another gross mis calculafion by the Minister of Finance, or is it another gross misrepresentation of the facts by the Premier in cfrder to justify abolishing this oFfice? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier, .?njnir_Wells: I will get the figures, Mr. Speaker. Speaking oFf the top OF ny head I understood the cost . of the .. r LB November 27, 1990 vol XLI No. 85 RB

S . Orribucisrian s office was about $401 ,000 13u 1. if that was in error, I will correct it. Mr. SReaker: The hon. the Member , for Kilbrde. arL R. Aylward: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No matter what the savings, Mr. Speaker, I ask the Premier, whether the savings be $236,000 as stated in the Budget or $400,000 as stated by the Premier, do these savings include the possibility of having to buy out the extra six years of the contractt he present Ombudsman now Ii as? Mr. peaker The hon. the Premier Premier Wells: Mr.

Speaker, I will try and get the exact cost of the Ombudsman's office but my guess is, and this is only a guess and I will check it, that the $236,000 referred to the balance for this year, because we intended to do it earlier. Mr .R.Ayj.ward: What it said in the Budget was $236,000 annually. Premier Wells Nell, if it is annually that is the figure and the $400, 000 figurn was wrong . I will check it and find out. Mi:.......aker: The hon. the Member for Kilbride - !rL._..enara: Mr. Speaker, when the hon.

Premier checks he will see that his figure of $400,000 is an exaggeration to try and justify his -. r.: Order, please The hon. member is on a supplementary, M a ...d I note that the L9 November 27. 1990 Uol XLI Premier did not answer t h e question of whether the savings of $236, 000 would include the possibility of having to buy out six years of the present Ombudsman's contract. Would this saving include the obligation of honoring the pension of the Ombudsman, which would be one—third of his salary for the first ten years and two—thirds for his second ten years? Is this included in the savings of $236,000?

Mrçaker: The hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, I have the estimates for 1990 and the $400,000 was not an accurate figure . The actual amount budgeted for the year was $236,200. Where does the Parliamentary Commissioner operate from? Verg: The Legislature. His office is - Premier Wells: I am very much aware of that. - on Elizabeth Ave Premier Wells : On Elizabeth Avenue. So, Mr. Speaker, that is how important the fellow is Nobody even knows where he is. Mr. SpeaVer, the amount involved on an annual basis is $236,200. Mr.p,cakr.: The hon. the Member for Kilbride, Mr. R. Aylwa.d: Thank you Mr. Speaker.

The Premier has now confirmed his exaggeration to try to justify this Ave. It is obvious that the Premier and the Government have given very little thought as to why they should abolish the Ombudsman' s Office Nil,]. the Premier confirm, IAII 11 he No, 85 R9

-c 4101 adirt that the real reason For the aholis hment of the Omhud srnan s OFticr is that he considers the Ombudsman, as characterized by the Minister of Health in debate, Mr. Speaker, a Tory hack and this is the only way he could see to get rid of the Ombudsman, and to continue his political witch-hunt through the public service? Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. peaker: The hon. the Premier Prernierwejis: No, Mr. Speaker. imsolutely not. That is an utter fabrication. One has only to look at the reports of the Ombudsman over the last number of years to see it.

Now what the Minister of Health expressed as his personal view is his personal view. But I can tell the House, Mr. Speaker, and through the House the public of this Province, that that was not in any manner a consideration for the Government in making this decision. The consideration for the Government in making this decision was similar to the consideration we had when we eliminated eight ministers. You might want to call them hacks if you wanted to that were p u t in there -- Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Premier Wells: We reduced the Government Departments, Mr. Speaker, from twenty-two dowr to fourteen. Some Hon.

Members: Oh, oh! Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, we reduced t h e number of Government Departments from twenty-two, plus a Premier, twenty-three, which the Former Premier had. I do not mean the Premier who was there For , a frc'iAi days. I ann not talking about LiD November 27, 1990 vol XLI that; there was not time to ge.t a Government in p1 ace. I am talking about the Former Government, Mr. Speaker, that had - An Hon. Member: Your nose is growing again. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please!

Order, please! question has been as kect and hon. members should do the courtesy to the Premier of hearing what the answer will be. The hon. the Premier. PremierWells: Mr. Speaker, what motivated the Government was eliminating all things that were, strictly speaking, unnecessary and not . making a significant contribution. Eight ministers or the Cabinet were unnecessary, we eliminated them. It eliminated eight deputy ministers, and so on,. and a number of assistant deputy ministers. We are in the process of eliminating I unnecessary automobiles, Mr. Speaker.

We are doing exactly t h e, same thing to eliminate the unnecessary expenditure . We eliminated unnecessary prc.ss aide.s For ministers -. there were some fic:t een . eir. _Rideout: Yes, you did so, and hired (inaudible). Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! PremierWells: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there were some fiFteen press aides that tracked around behind ministers wherever they travelled and carried their bags and wrot.e their messages For them, and they were travelling around . So we eliminated all or those things No. 85 RiO . a .

. U . and that. is what motivated us in eliminating the of Fice of Ombudsman, Mr. Speaker. (Inaudible) and ministers over there never move without them. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. ML Matthews: T h a n k you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Fisheries, who is just back From a meeting with the Federal Minister of Fisheries and A 1 l.a n I-. ± c c o u n t e r P a r t s w he r e he recommended a total allowable catch of 170,000 metric tons.

In light of that, can the minister inform the House, as a result of his meetings and his recommendation, whether or not the people in the towns of Grand Bank, Trepassey and Gaultois can expect their fish plants to reopen in 1991, or will we indeed see more fish plant closures? The hon. the Minister of Fisheries, Mr............c.rt,.:: Mr. Speaker, I cannot answer that question, quite frankly. I can only say this, Mr. Speaker, that I think it is quiti obvious now that the total allowable, catch is going to have to be reduced. In fact, the Harris Panel Report made such a recommendation.

Scientific evidence points to the need for a further reduction in the TAG. The Dunn Report, recently tabled by Eric Dunn, confirms what the others are saying. If the TAG is allowed to remain at its current level, that of approximately 200,000 metric tons, Mr. Speaker, I do not think the future of the fishery is going to be very bright, and f o r that reason the Province feels IL n e c e s s a r y to Lii November 27, 1990 Vol. XLI recommend a reduction in the TAC Now I realize there will he some social implications, upheavals maybe, but, Mr. Speaker, I think we have to start trying to rebuild the fishery.

And while the social problems are important too and none of us can ignore them, I think what is more important at this point in time is that we give the fishery a chance to rebuild to a point wher6 at some time in the not—too—distant future it will he able to provide a decent living for those who are in it. And not like it is now, by the way. It is not even providing a quarter of a living for them. Mr.SEeaker: The hon. the Member for Grand Bank. MrMatthews: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A supplementaHy to the Minister.

In light of the fact that the Minister recommended a. total all.ouiable catch of 170,000 metric tons, which is some 27,000 metric tons less than last year, d i d the Minister or the Province make specific recommendation as to what sector or sectors would receive the cuts., the. reduction, in fish allocations? I want to a s k the Minister that. It was only last weak he said that the Scandinavian longliner allocation should be reinstated and the Resource Short Programme should be reinstated.

But, yet, when you go and recommend 27,000 metric tons less than last year, what recommendations did the Minister make to the Federal Minister as it pertains to the cuts and where they should come from? fhe hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr, Carter: Mr. Speaker, the Province did not make any specific No. 85 R11. L

S recoimnendation as to where the cuts will collie, but certainly we would be. hesitant to support any move on the part of the Government to tamper with the inshore allocation; we all know, of course, that that is an allocation that is there for the inshore sector. In fact, I am happy to announce today, Mr. Speaker, that this year, despite all the bad news we have been hearing, the inshore allocation will be almost caught in its entirety. For example, I am told 107,000 metric tons have to date been caught, which means there is a buffer of 8,000 metric tons.

Now I would certainly not support any attempt on the part of! the Government to tamper with the inshore allocation, because I think they deserve to retain that allocation, that amount. Mr. Speaker: Question Period has expired. Before moving on to the next item of routine business, on behalf of hon. Members I would like to welcome to the public galleries today eighteen Grades XI and XII students from the Seventh Day Adventist School he.re in St. John's, accompanied by their teacher, Mr. Ian Cheese.Fnan. Some Hon._Members.: Hear, hear! Notices of Motion Mr.peaker: The hon. the Minister of Development.

Mr. furoy: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorroww ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Reconstitute N ewfo u nd I. and and Labrador , Development Corporation Limi te.d And Certain Divisions Of ihe Department Of Development As Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador Corporation". Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Ms Ver9e: Oh, . only a year and a half. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Dicks: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Remove Anomalies And Errors In The Statute Law". rhank you.

Mr. - Speaker: The hon. the President of Treasury Board, Mr. Baker: Mr. Speaker,. I give notice that I will on tomorrow move, pursuant to Standing Order No. . SO, debate and further consideration of second reading of Bill No. 38, "An Act Respecting The Creation Of Regional Service Boards Throughout The Province", standing in the name of the hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial AfFairs, and any amendments to that motion For second reading of Bill No, 38 shall not be further adjourned, and that further consideration of any amendments related to second reading of Bill No. 38 shall not be further postponed.

SomeHon. Members: Oh, oh! Mr.Speaker: Order, please! Order, please! Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given '4 L 1-12 November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 . R12

Mr. Sneaker: The hon. the Premier. Petitions Premier Wells: Mr. Speaker, on Thursday, November 22nd, the Member for Kilbride asked about a letter written by The International Organization of Ombudsmen and asked if I would table the reply. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table today the original letter written by Mr.

Stephen Owen, President of the International Ombudsman Insttute, together with my reply of July 5th, 1990 which spells out in detail all of the reasons why the Government proposed to abolish the office of Parliamentary Commissioner as being unnecessary, the duties being taken care of by the Members of the House. It is not necessary for me to read it, it will be available. Mr.Simms: On a point of order Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr.

Simms I wonder if the Premier would take the opportunity on a point of order to tell ne or tell the House when he intends to fulFill his promise or commitment to provide the House with the information that we asked for, I guess last week sometime, quite a while ago, on the breakdown of overexpenditures in the $120 million deficit. He said he would get it. We have not had it since, and that is days and days ago. Some Hon.Members: Oh, oh! Mr .Speaker: To the point of order, the hon. the Premier. Premier Wells: Yes, Mr. Speaker it will he provided r_aXcr_: The hon. the Member for Green Bay. Mr.

Hewlett: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I stand to present a petition signed by ninety—two persons from Green Bay, mostly from the Robert's Arm Triton area. As a matter of fact, the Mayor of Robert's Arm signed this petition and signed as Mayor. The prayer of the petition is as follows, Mr. Speaker: Because an expenditure freeze in the health care system will mean layoffs and bed closures, we, the undersigned residents of Green Bay District, petition the hon. House of Assembly not to appr.ove such .a freeze. Mr..

Speaker, this petition today brings a total of near 500, I think, who have sent me their petitions protesting cutbacks in the health care system ..The Administration of the local health care board in Green Bay has submitted one impact s tateinen L to the Minister of Hef.i].th , and there have been, I understand, discussions on that and possibly there will be another impact statement with another configuration of how the $600,000 or $700,000 minimum will be saved next year.

The first calculation by the Administration would close twenty—four senior citizens beds and the only two children's beds at the Springdale hospital. There i s a not her c on 1 i q LI ratio n ti at would involve downgrading the Springdale hospital to a clinic, with nursing home beds a Ltached L13 November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 R13

and I am g:iven to understand that could possibly provide the type of savings that t h e Government requires Obviously there would be some job losses, but not as bad as if the entire hospital itself were closed. Mr. Speaker, Christmas is coming. A lot of public servants, not only in my district hut throughout the Province, certainly have other things on their mind than the Season of joy and goodwill: their concern For their employment, their jobs, and other citizens are concerned as to the level of public health services in their area.

The one thing I think particularly cruel about the way I this Government has gone about making its budget for next year is the degree of uncertainty they have generated out there in the general public. Certainly the subject matter at hand here has been the subject of a considerable discussion in Green Bay, and Springdale in particular. Hon. members on Monday last, when I presented the petition, showed inc a copy of the front page of a local newspaper, where the mayor of Springdale was not in favor of my petition campaign.

The petition I presented on Monday I sent around to the 1,200 households in Springdale as a household mailer, and that has certainly been the subject of much discussion since then. Needless to say,' Mr. Speaker, discussion on this and uncertainty on this will continue until such time as this Administration makes some final decisions. I would certainly hope that decisions, whatever they are, •the degree of pain etc. , will be communicated to the people involved long before a budget comes down in probably February or March of the year 1991. Therefore, Mr.

Speaker, I h a v e signed this petition, I support its prayer, and I ask that it he tabled and referred to the Department of Health. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Leader , of the Opposition. Mr. Rideout: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, I was just - Orders of the Day Mr. Simms: Orders of the Day with nobody here at all? Mr. Rideout: Mr. Speaker, I move that the House adjourn until tomorrow at 3:OQ p.m. An Hon. Member: Call order 1, Mr. S pea 1< er. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! An Hon. Member: Order 28. .

Mr. peaker: Order 28, second reading of a bill, "An fl ct Respecting The Creation Of Regional Service Boards rhroughou t The Province". (Bill No. 38). This is an adj ourned debate . the hon. the Member for Menihek. Mr. Rideout: The hon. t h e Government House Leader calls For closure and then he can't be here to call the Orders of the Day. Mr. A. Snow: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The Regional Service Boards Bill, Bill No. 38, we have been debating for a couple of hours now. We have not had a tremendous amount of debate on it, bul' F, am pleased to have the . Lilt November 27, 1990 vol XLI No. 85 Ru

. . opportunity to debate this bill. It is something that c o n c e r n s Municipal Government. I have been involved with Municipal Government for a number of years in Labrador City.

I think it is commonly referred to as the . first level of government, and I think it is probably aptly named or referred to as the first level of government, because that level of government is, in my opinion, the most important level of government that we have in this country today, the level of government that is right down there in the trenches, so to speak, with the grass roots of this country, delivering services to the people and they are living day to day with the cares and the concerns of the people and delivering the services that the people utilize every day of their lives.

That is why I believe it is unfortunate that this regime has seen fit to do what they have done in restricting debate on this particular bill. I am sure there are a tremendous number of people on the other side of the House who would like to speak .

There are people on t h e other side of the House who have had a greater amount of experience than I h a v e had in Municipal Government, and they have a tremendous amount of respect e a r n e d from t h e i r particular electorates over the numbers of years they have been involved, I think of people such as the hon. the Member for Placentia and t h e hon. the Member for Carbonear, who has served in Municipal Government. I believe even Eric the Red himself has served, t h e hon. Ministe.r of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Even the Presideht of Treasury Board, he has a tremendous amount of experience .

I am sure that if he werc to speak and all these members were to s p e a k from the experience they gained at this first level of Government, municipal government, they could see some of the flaws that h a v e been expressed to them by the.ir electorate and by councillors with whom they served over •numbers of years. I had, as I mentioned earlier, the opportunity of serving on a town council in Labrador City for eighteen years, ten of those years were on a LII) - An Hon. Member: What is that? 1r Simms: Local Improvement District.

Mr.A.Snow: Yes, that is a Local Improvement District,and eight years in the council, four of which I was a mayor. That particular first level of Government, I always believed, is probably the best municipal government in this Province, and they have expressed concern to me and they have expressed concern to this regime about what they are doing, what this particular bill could do to municipal government in their area. Now other people have spoken on how this bill could affect particular a r e a s they represent and they have experience with.

My experience in municipal government has been in Labrador City and Wabush. I feel that I have garnered quite a hit of knowledge, having served on 'this council and working with our sister community, Wabush, on a number of committees and bringing regional services to the area. I have been involved in that, so I I:eel I have experience that 1 should be able to share with other people in this House and in this Lib November 27, 1990 vol XLI No. 85 Rib

. Province, and I am sure other people have done a similar type of thing. Now the town council in Labrador City has operated over a number of years and, as I have suggested, earned a reputation of being one of the most efficient in this Province. It is an affluent community, yet they have a very efficient and progressive council, with new ideas, and they also showed prudence in being good managers of the taxpayers money. And I believe that is why they are probably one of the more outspoken councils with regard to this particular bill and how they, see this can affect them. And I readily agree with them.

I Some people have suggested that there may indeed be a hidden agenda for this particular bill. In other words, what is being said is that this regime is attempting to do something through the backdoor that they could not do or would not do or did not have the face to do up front. They have been devious. They have connived a way or contrived a way to do what they have wanted to do since d a y one, and I will attempt to show the people of this Province how this is being done.

The minister has suggested that the intent of the regional service boards is to operate under the auspices of the municipal councils, and the intent is not to have it driven by the Province and under the auspices of the Province, Now that is what the minister said when he spoke in debate on this bi'! ..... Ordinarily what the minister would say you would have to take and suggest that well, that is undoubtedly a fact and we should listen to that and believe him. But I am finding a lot of people do not believe that.

When the ConuTlittee hear'd reports submitted to them by numerous councils, people of knowledge in the municipal communities in the Province, they disagreed. Because this is not being driven by the councils, it is being driven by the Province, in the fact of how they are going to do it.

Section 3, and I quote, 'rhe Lieutenant—Governor in Council by order, on the recommendation of the Minister, may create a region and establish for that region a regional service board for the purpose of providing regional services in accordance with this Act; and that he shall in the order referred to in Subsection (1) designate the boundaries and select a name for the region to he administered by the board established under this section.' Now this is something he talks about that is going to be driven by the municipalities.

That. is what he says when he gets up and speaks in public debate, yet in the bill he says we are going to ram this down your throat. It does not matter if you do or do not want it, it does not matter iF the people are againstit, it does not matter if these duly elected people, as an example, in the District of Menihek were to be opposed to this regional service board being rammed down the.ir throats, it is only if the czar of municipal government in this Province says, I think it is necessary. Do it. Then it will be done.

So it is not being driven by the municipalities, it is being driven by this regime; it is being ramified down the people' s throats , and that is unfortunate. Because as I have suggested, I believe and a . LiG November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 RiG

. . lot oF people around this COLIn try believe, that that level of Governine.n t, the municipal government, is the first level of Government and the most - important level of Government we have. And we should not be running over that level of Government with the hobnail boots of this provincial regime, this Provincial Government. Now this regime has seen fit to do this in a dictatorial manner. The least this regime could have done would have been to do it (Inaudible) req iine? Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh An Hon. Member: What are you waiting for? Mr. A. Snow: I am waiting for them to shut up.

Now, the least they could have done An Hon. Member: We will be doing the same for you MrA,Snow: Will you do ii:, in silence then, please? The least they could have done would be to have a referendum, When they are going to impose regional government on an area, 'what they have to do is have the support of the people. And that is why they need to have consultation, feasibility studies, not lust running in and imposing their authority without any consultation, without any feasibility studies, and no public hearings. They are just going to go into any area and say, I think it is necessary. Because I live in St.

John's, I think it is necessary For the people in Wah'.ish and Labrador City to have this type: of regional government, - or have this regional board. '[hat is what they are saying, without any studies, without any consultation with the councils , and without any public hearings. What they are suggesting is that they know better than any level of municipal government in this Province. They know better, they suggest. An Hon._Member: (Inaudible). Mr. A. Snow: I will agree with the hon. Member for Exploits, they do not know better. He agreed they did not know any better.

He suggests that this regime 'does not know any better than any level of government. They do not know it as well as the first leve] of gdvernment, as municipal governments. So I agree with the Member for Exploits. It is just the Cabinet alone that would establish these regional service boards, and that is unfortunate. The other thing a lot of councils are disagreeing with in this is the number of people who would be appointed and how they are going to be appointed .

Cabinet alone, or the Minister, determines the number of the board members Again, there is no consul tation with the councils, there is no consultation with this first and most important level of government. The other thing they are talking about is the appointment of a Chairman, and they go along to suggest how they will appoint a Chairman. They do not talk about how they are going to consult with the councils; about how they are going to have public hearings; about any consultation with the grass roots of any municipality or of all the municipalities concerned.

They say, no, 'it is going to be if 1 think it' is Li? November 27, 1990 VolXLI Nb. 85 R17

necessary. If we in our plush offices in St. Johns think it is necessary for you to be governed in a certain way we will deem it necessary and then force it on you We will ram it down your throats. Because you have elected us to go to St. John's and do what we think is necessary. And this is unfortunate. Because. what is that going to do to municipalities in our Province? It is going to make the municipalities upset, that is what it is going to do. There are a lot of municipalities out there now that agree. with regional services. An awful lot of municipalities out there. The problem with it is - Mr.

Efford: Do you agree with it? Mr. A. Snow: - the problem with this is that it gives the Minister the total authority to ram it down their throats : They want to be able to participate in the Government. They do not want just to have a responsibility of paying the bills . Because they know what may happen. There are a lot of people out there suggesting that what can occur is that this is also a method of this regime ducking out under a responsibility that they have had in other areas, such as in recreation.

Some people have even suggested that they are going to be able to get out from cost in policing, they are going to pass this over to municipalities in this Province. Some people have suggested they are going to do the same thing with fire services, fire protection, that may indeed find it necessary to have a regional method, this regional board would encompass fire protection and force this payment down the throats of rnuncipa.b.tes Because they can do it with this bill. That is a fact. they can do it..

And t h e people •on the other side know it, And the municipalities out the.re around the Province know it and realize it. That is unfortunate. Because that is another abdication of a responsibility that these people, that you people on the other side of this House, were elected to do. We have just seen another abdication now.

We have seen one abdication of responsibility when you gave up the opportunity of economic development that should have been entrusted to the Minister, the Department of Development, and passed it willy—nilly over , to a bunch. of academics and political hacks appointed around the Province to administer the economic dcv eloprnent of this Province. Now we are. seeing a method, this bill could indeed be another method of getting out of a responsibility of delivering certain services that a Province now delivers out in other areas of this Province.

Such as in my area where I live, We have had the. opportunity over the last Five or six years of having an arts centre, a Provincially funded arts centre . It was something that the area strived for for many years. And I am sure that if you were to check the attendance, that during performances up there you will find that per capita it has a higher attendance rate than any arts centre in this Province. So the people do use it. And it is Provincially funded. And of course the people of Menihek greatly appreciate it. But what some people are apprehensive about is that this .

F L18 November 27, 1990 vol XLI No, 85 R18

. S particular regime may now find the method of putting this, the funding of this arts centre-, now over into the responsibility of the municipal governments t h r o u g h a regional service board and making the councils, or the taxpayers of -Labrador City and kjabush, pay for the operation of this facility through this Act. The councils will then just become a rubber stamp for tax collecting. That is what can happen and people are apprehensive about this because they realize what this can do to municipal government in this Province. 8ecause of how we have seen this regime operate, how they do things.

They have a centralist idea of how things should be operated, and no concern for how government services should be administered and delivered to rural areas of this Province, Places outside - when I say rural areas, I am talking about places outside the overpass. The Minister says during the debate that it gives total authority to the municipal councils involved. - Now this is tota fly untrue, as I just suggested. The only role- that the municipalities iA!ll have with this bill is to nominate the candidates for the appointment. Every other part of the bill is the responsibility of the Minister.

The Minister is the one who has all of the authority, and he appoints the people, he appoints the chairman, who, by the way, it is possible he will not even be a member of a local council, he will be an independent person, I guess we could possibly assume from that he could be some political hack who has absolutely no experience., no faith from the electorate of the area that he would be servicing, the area that he would L 19 November 27 1990 Vol XLI be delivering a service to. lic would not have the Faith that councils would have or a councillor would have.

He would merely have the faith of the politician sitting in St. Johns, that is the only faith that that person could have. April 21, there was an awful lot of faith stopped I can tell you that. - Mr. Speaker, ihese are some ofte reasons why a lot of people in this Province are upset and disappointed with this particular bill that is being proposed. They a r e upset because they recognize how this bill is going to run roughshod over their duly elected councils . This bill, some people suggest, can make councils merely tax collectors or regional service boards throughout the Province.

I find this, as other people, distasteful. They feel that it is not going to do anything For municipal government in this Province, in the sense of the municipal governments having earned the faith of the taxpayers, of the electorate overt he- last numbers of years . Since Confederation we have had in -this Province- a lot OF people not willing to run for muni.ipal councils in rural areas oF this Province .

And I believe that this bill is going to perpetrate that feeling throughout this Province and I think that it is going to drastically affect the quality and the number of people who will offer the ins e 1 v e s for in u n i c i pal government in council. Now the hon. Member For Eagle River can sit down there and yell and scream and whine - a n d do whatever he wishes, but I would hope that he will get up and speak to this bill after arU- -then he can No. 85 R19

. add into the debate anything that he Wishes My name is George (inaudible) 1 am calliig on behalf of Alex Snow. Mr. A. Snow: No, I am not doing a public opinion. There is a survey being done seeing what some of my constituents would like in getting cards. ftnan._Member: My name is George Mr. A. Snow: It is not George, it is Wats in the computer, the computers name is Watson and he is calling on behalf of Alex Snow, and I will be willing to share the program with the hon. members opposite, it Works really Well.

It allows us opportunity for a constituent and a member to be able to be in touch with more constituents and I am sure that I know people on this side of the House, especially me, who would like to be able to do that.

I know that some of the . people on the other side of the House donot want constituents to call them, or at least my constituents .s, because we have seen Cabinet ministers that will not accept long distance telephone calls, and they are proud of it Yet they a r e. told that if they have a fear that a service is gone or a wrong being done that there issonne suggestion that we will do away with the Ombudsman's Office and call an open line program because that is free, but you have to pay to call your cabinet minister. That is totally unfair. Anyway, I have digressed a little bit, Mr.

Speaker, so I will get back to the bill at hand. I feel this bill gives much too much power to the Minister and it is totally unnecessary. Some of the thiiigs I can agree with in the sense that there are cases in this Province where we should have c e r t a i n regional services incorporated and delivered by a board or delivered regionally so to speak rather than duplication, but I do not believe that the Government should have the authority to ram down the people's throats in other areas of this Province what they deem is necessary.

I think they have shown themselves as being distant from the people since they have been elected and what they deem as necessary here in St. John's may not be necessary in Labrador City and Wabush, or in any othe.r area of this Province where l,:his b:i. 11 could, and would, impact upon. For , those reasons I know I will not be supporting it and I know that the people in this Province, in most cases, do not support this bill. It is a bill, as I suggested, that is going to do a lot of damage to municipal government in this Province.

It is a time now where municipal government has been gaining a lot of respect in our Province and I think this is going to set it back because councillors that have been elected to serve in this Province by the electorate have gained the respect of - Lheir electorate and now they are going to see that this bill ,., this Minister, and this regime is going to rain down thir throats services or costs to the people that they do not necessarily want to bear the burden of, and that is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, very much. Mr. The hon. the Member for Carhonear. Mr.

Reid: I want to make a Few brief comments in support of the.. bill. Most of i -ny hon. colleagues in the House know and rca tue that . . .20 November 27, 1990 Uol XLI No. 85 R20

. . C I was rrayor of one oft he larger towns For seven and a halF years in the Conception Bay No rt Ii area and I am familiar with the efforts, not only on behalf of this Government, hut by the previous Government, if I remember, under the hon. Hazel Newhook when I was President of the Federation of Municipalities, and we discussed it at length, the possibility of sharing services within communities in certain areas.

In fact, if I remember correctly, I think it was in 1985 or 1986 that we talked about the possibiLity of sharing in Conception Bay North and we had several meetings in the area on the idea of tendering for salt and sand together, tendering for pape', for gas and oil, and for all kinds of things. I have no problems with trying, in certain areas of the Province, to bring communities, town councils, and local service districts together in purchasing, and whatever they can, at cheaper prices.

But, then, there has •to be some organization, or, body that spearheads that with the authority to do it, and I think this particular bill does that, Just let me give you an example of some of•theth±rgs that we have run into in Conception Bay North for a long, long time. I was Chairman of the joint councils of Conception.

Bay North on two separate occasions and how often did we discuss the problems that the smaller towns in our area were having as it compared to the accessibility of monies as well as services by the larger communities as compared to the smaller , ones Out in my area alone, in Conception Bay North, we have an arena located in Bay Roberts and we also have an arena located in Harbour Grace which are separated approximately by ten miles . The Harbour Grace arena supplies and services Carbonear, and the North and East, I suppose, area of Trinity Bay and down the Northshore in my district as far as Bay de Verde.

The total expense and operation , of the Harbour Grace stadium is borne, as I know for, certain, Mr. Speaker, by the people of Harbour Grace, and that stadium has been utilized I suppose for the past 25 years or 30 years by everybody in the whole area. And it has not been fair to the town council of Harbour Grace over the years to have to be saddled with the burden of finding the expenses to operate such a facility. . Bay Roberts Arena was something that was built I suppose no more than seven or eight years ago and they are also saddled with the same responsibility.

If there is a debt within the arena or within the stadium the town council of Bay Roberts has to absorb that debt. And it is not right, because people from all over Conception Bay North use both those facilities. And I do not think it is right for one community to have to bear recreation facility costs like we are in the Conception Bay North area. The Minister was told last week in Carbonear that the Carbonear Swimming Pool now serves almost a population of close to 40,000, draws from a population of close to 40,000 people.

But if the Carbonear Swimming Pool takes a loss in 1990 and 1991 the town council of Carbonear has to borrow that cost. We have been lucky I suppose to a certain extent in Conception Bay North that we have had some really good councils, councils that had L21 November 27. 1990 vol XLI No. 85 R21

r L foresight as well as hindsight, in trying to address e COfl 01111 C problems in t h e. area And t h e Conception Bay North joint mayors association, or joint council association, is a pretty active association as I am sure the one on the Burin Peninsula is and others. But for years we have been a pretty active group, or they have had a pretty group, that was looking at all ways of trying to make life that much better or easier for the people living in the Conception Bay North area.

And just a few years ago under the previous administration there was an incinerator built in the Harbour Grace area and that incinerator serves, as far as I know, the people from Brigus right to Salmon Cove which takes in, I would think, about 25,000 people.

Maybe I might be up on that number hut it services about 25,000 people and at the same time that 25,000 people are spread between, I think it is something like fourteen or fifteen communities, And the way that incinerator works is basically that all the conninunities that use t h e incinerator, even though it is located in Harbour Grace and it was funded by Harbour Grace in the beginning, all the communities in that area, have a representative on what we call the Conception Bay North Incinerator Association And they operate as a formally corporate body that looks after the maintenance and operations of that particular incinerator and the representatives from the various town councils are responsible then back to their own councils on increases and taxes and expenditures and so on.

So that particular system works in the Conception Bay North area. When I think , and I. ]. oak sometimes, and - j Oust recently I noticed in the paper that a lot of c o in mu n i tie s a r o u n d t h e Pro v i n c e and especially in my particular area — because I take note of those before I do of others - are now tendering for salt and sand or have tendered in the last month or so for salt and sand. And I remember going to a meeting one night of mayors of Conception Bay North and bragging about the wonderful deal Carbonear got on salt and sand as it compared to other communities.

We were paying a lot less per ton for salt than any of the other communities and of course the reason that Carbonear was paying a lot less was because Carbonear was buying more. And our tonnage cost was a lot less than some oft he other smaller towns. Now if that be the case, Mr. Chairman, why can't we as a group of communities in Conception Bay North get together to do things like that? I know it is the Act already that a number of communities can possibly do that.

But I have found, and as I started to say, fly hon. friend From Gander, when she was M:i ni.s te.r Found that yes, it wa3 a good idea but quite often we h a d problems finding t h e. proper, mechanism or the proper, I suppose, avenue to be able to address these concerns and actually bring savings to communities. Because if you had one or two or three not agreeing or agreeing - it did not matter - and somebody else not agreeing then it made things more difficult. And of course in the end I suppose it diminished the services to the people we were talking about or representing.

One great thing that is happening in Conception Bay North in 1992 is LJ L22 November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 R22

. C the Summer Games And ii: :is a great thing as far as I am concerned. I was born in Carhonear and like I said I was mayor for a number of years. And one of the. great things that is happening, and it is not really the fact that we have got the Summer Games, it is the fact that Harbour Grace and Carbonear are working together to put together the summer gaines. And to have Harbour Grace and Carbonear working together as my hon, friend for St.

John's East knows, is it or East Extern, Harbour Grace and Carbonear have for, I suppose the past 200 years, have not had what you call a workable relationship and now all of a sudden, in 1992, thanks to the previous Government of course, we can bring in the people of Carbonear and Harbour Grace and get them to work together to put off the Newfoundland and Labrador Summer Games, and it is happening. £t _Simnis: What is going on in here? Mr. Reid: Mr.

Speaker, not only in recreation, not only in salt and sand, paper and gas and oil and all the other things that each community I suppose, in the Province have to tender on and pay heavily for, but there is another area that concerns me and has concerned me for some while. If anybody would leave tonight and drive From Roaches Line to Salmon Cove they would find an abundance of Fire Departments. Now, I am not saying that there is anything wrong or there is an over abundance of Fire Departments in the area, but let me go down through it, Mr. Speaker. You arrive, afte.r you leave.

Roaches Line and you end up in L23 November 27. 1990 Vol XLI CLarke' s Beach or Son th Rivcr, or North River, that whole area is serviced by either the Bay Roberts Fire Department, which is a lair size Fire Department, I think they have two good pumpers, two new pumpers and a van and other equipment, but then that same area is sometimes serviced, if I am not mistaken by Cupids or Brigus Fire Department because they have one as well. ff.n._tI.on.Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Reid: Just in that little area there, as soon as you conic off Roaches Line.

When you leave that you come across the beach in Bay Roberts and into Spaniard' s Bay and there is a Fire Department in Spaniard's Bay, and Spaniard's Bay covers Tilton too, by the way, which is a small community over there. You leave that and Upper Island Cove has its own. Fire Department, you go over the hill from Upper Island Cove about a mile to a mile and a half and you get into Harbour Grace and they have their own Fire Department and of course Harbour Grace has one of the top Fire Departments in the Province, next to Carbonear, one of the best.

You leave Harbour Grace which is approximately three kilometres From Carbonear and you come to Carhonear and Carbonear has an abundance of an abundance of firefighting equipment, in fact I think they have one of the best aerial ladder trucks in the Province, which we purchased some years ago, aicmg with three pumpers, vans and all kinds of equipment. You leave Carhonear and go over the hill a nile and a half froi'n there, you go to Victoria and they have got: a Fire Department, then No, 85 R23

. y o u 'o to Salmon C o v e and t h e y have got a Fire Department. Great, wonderful. I think it is a wonderful thing, but my personal feeling, Mr. Speaker, is that there is a lot of money, there is a lot of maintenance dollars, there is a lot of capital dollars gone into Fire Departments in the Province, not only in the Conception Bay North area, but in the Province in general.

And you have this host, and V wish and pray and I have often talked about it when I was Mayor of Carbonear, to various Government officials and to others about the possibility of getting maybe one or two central fire stations in the area and maybe being able to man them like they are doing now in Conception Bay South, somewhat on a part—time basis or whatever by full—time fireman, and when I say a part time basis because I believe that the Fire Department is not manned in the night—time. I think they are doing twelve hours or something like that., And with that said, Mr.

Speaker, what an opportunity we will have in the Conception Bay North area, to probably look at all these particular services and maybe, maybe come up with something better than we have right now.

This particular bill, as far as I am concerned gives the authority to the Minister as well as to all the municipalities, and there are a lot of municipalities out there waiting, waiting for this bill to go through, because I think they see an opportunity to make services in their area much better than what they are right now. interes Led in it. there a r e isolated communities in t h e Province which will not be able, 1:0 be served by a local service or a local authority and a regional service board. I have no problems with that and I ani sure the Minister knows and realizes that.

There are some questions that the Opposition has raised with regards to public hearings and consultation and the right of the Minister to appoint and so on, but I do not have any problems with that because I believe that the Minister, when this bill goes through, if there needs to he amendments to the bill later on, that those amendments will conie.

I am sure that the people of Newfoundland, the municipalities, the mayors, the Federation of Municipalities and all the other group's who represent all the municipalities in the Province, will make representation to the Minister some time, be it this year or next year and that bill can be amended and 'I do not have any problems with that. I rise today, Mr.

Speaker, basica].ly to make those general comments and honestly say to you that I believe, as an experienced, somewhat experienced I suppose, municipal politician, that I think that a regional service board in the Conception Bay North area, that would take in a large chunk of my district, would certainly be well appreciated as well as, I know that a number of councillors in the area and mayors included have already made representation to me on it. Now, I will agree .Mr.

Speaker, that there are places in NewFoundland today, that probably will not want this, probably not L24 November 27, 1990 vol XLI I do not Ca rbon ear this one, number of they think No. 85 think the have anything I have ta people out it is time. people of to Fear on lked to a there and They want R24 .

a . . help, they want help in Carbonear to help pay For some cii' the sports facilities, the recreation facilities which we have there and which we have been offering to other people in the area for a number of years without any assistance, and I am . sure Harbour Grace and the Harbour Grace Stadium, the Bay Arena in Bay Roberts, they would certainly welcome some assistance from other communities in the area and from the people who are using it as well.

So I stand in support of the Minister in this particular bill, and I think that in all sincerity that this Minister has enough feeling for the towns and communities around this Province to make sure that they are consulted after this bill goes through, that they are consulted and there will be hearings, I would think individual communities will come and they will have hearings wit± the Minister and the Minister will listen and the people in his Department will listen to all the concerns which will be put forward. I rise in support, Mr.

Minister and I encourage some of my colleagues on the other side, who have had experience within the municipal field, to support this bill as it is. If we need to make changes in it we have lots of time to do so. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.peake r: The hon. the Member for St. Mary's - The Capes. Mr. Hearn: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Sirnrns: (Inaudible) force closure so you got our backs up now. Anlion. Member: That is not closure Mr. Hearn : I did not intend to s p e a k on this bill until thi. Member for Carbonear got up and had a few words .

Some of the points he made, seemingly ones that were probably given him by the Minister to try to gloss over what is really happening in the bill, because he emphasized sharing, and there is no one in the House who will disagree with the fact that there should be a lot more sharing. I think we have seen a lot of it in the last Few years. It is not only what is happening in relation to municipalities. We are se.eing a lot more sharing in other areas also.

The Minister of Education will tell you that there is more sharing going on today than ever before in history, and it is not forced sharing, it is encouraged and promoted. WhaL the Minister is trying to do •here in Bill 38 is to force sharing.

I say to the Minister that is not the way to go about it because if the Minister is going out with his heavy hand and wheeling the big stick and making councils and areas co-operate and work together when they are not prepared for it, and when perhaps they are not ready for it or do not want to do it in some cases at this stage, then the Minister is going to get a lot of backs up against him. However, if he would encourage, promote, and use various incentives, then undoubtedly the sharing that so many people want will come about with a lot of support.

The former speaker, the Member For Carbonear, when he was finishing said that the Minister would consult with the various areas after the bill goes through. Now, we have, all seen how this Government consults . They consult and t h e n they do what they want to do. 1 25 November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 R25

anyway. Mr. Gover: School boards. Mr. Hearn: Yes, exactly. And I am glad that the Member for Bonavista South is on our side when he sarcastically says school boards., What he is really saying is that the Minister went out and did not really consult with the school boards. He acknowledged their presence, but then he did what he wanted to do. And the Member for Bonavista South, I will say to the Minister of Education, said that, not me. The Minister of Municipal Affairs has the same intention.

He went out before the amalgamation process and consulted, but did he do what was suggested to him by the council for different areas, of course not. The Minister came in and did what the Premier said, centralize. That is the operable word of this Government: centralize.

There is a centralization tendency here carried over from the former liberal administration back when we had the old centralization policies , We see it in thc- Department of Education where the Minister of Education is trying to centralize all power into the department so that they can run it all under their own hands, and the Minister of Municipal Affairs is doing exactly the same thing. And to talk about salt and sand as it compared to other communities, we were paying a lot less per ton after consulting.

Now how foolish does he think any municipality out there is to say to them go along with this and when we put it all in place, the Minister will consult with you. The Ministe.r should consult beforehand, listen, and follow the suggestions and ins tructions of the e x p e r i e n c e d people in the field, especially in rural Nc-wfoundland, who know a lot more about municipal politics than the Minister.

Perhaps the Minister should consult carefully wi I:h the Member for Placentia, an experienced Mayor from a rural area where amalgamation is appropriate, maybe not forced amalgamation but certainly encouraged and promoted amalgamation, as the member has been trying to do for awhile.. To force amalgamation as this bill is doing, then I think the Minister is asking for trouble.

When the Member for Carbonear uses the word consult he should go back to his own collective agreement when he was a teacher, where the word consult or consent led to at least one strike and caused an awFul lot of aggravation through a number of negotiating processes. Written in the teachers agreement is that Government has to have the consent of the . Newfoundland. Teachers Association to make certain changes in their pension plan. Luckily so, I say now to the Me.mber for Carbonear. Many times governments of all different stripes have tried to change that word consent to consult.

They would consult, hut then do what they wanted to do anyway. And this is exactly what the Minister intends to do. You can consult anybody about anything. That does not mean you are going to do what the other people suggest. The word consent, having their consent to make changes, gives them a lot more say in the process in consultation by the Minister, especially a well--meaning Minis ter, I would say, in his own right, hut a Minister of this Government which consults but then goes ahead with i t s own plans anyway. Consultation is only a sham.. - . .26 November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 R26 F

. r In discussions in relation to the bill the M i n i s, ter says the intent is to have the reg:ional service boards operate under the auspices of the municipal councils. That means really have the councils run the show. If that is the case, we ask the Minister, as the Leader of the Opposition did yesterday, why does he not put it in writing? Why does he not do what the president of Treasury Board did with the Libraries Board, put it in writing to them? The facts are the regional service boards established under the bill will be directed by the Province.

Cabinet on its own authority may designate any portion of the Province or any region. There is no requirement at all to consult with the municipalitie.s or anybody else. We heard today from the Member for Carbonear what is going to happen, they will consult after the bill goes through. That is like locking the barn door after the horse gets out, I say to him. There is no word on feasibility studies . Where are the public hearings? You just cannot take Newfoundland and cut it up into little geographic blocks and say, you are a unit.

It does not operate that way, especially when one looks at the way the area has developed over, the years. In any one geographic area you might have strong communities, well—organized, who have spent a lot of time and money, who have contributed greatly to setting up a solid infrastructure in relation to libraries, in relation to firefighting eqth.pment, in relation to fire halls, in relation to recreational facilities, and in relation to public buildings .

You night find other communities very close where the same thing has not happened at all, w h e r e t h e r e h a s been v e r y little local initiative or organization. Where is the equality there? How are you going to work those things out unless it is done beforehand? There are animosities built up between communities, as the Speaker well knows, in certain parts of the Province.

And if you just say you have to get together, this is it, then before they get a chance to discuss and work out their problems locally, they are forced into co-operation and quite often that co—operation never comes Cabinet alone establishes these boards. It is not done with the help of municipalities . Cabinet has the power to establish the board. The Minister even determines the number of board members . The Minister appoints the Chairman.

And if we just want to change for a minute and look at hypothetically perhaps what might happen if the Minister sets up a number of regional boards throughout the Province, the Minister determines the number of people on each board and the Minister selects the Chairman, or Chairperson, of each hoard. What if the Minis t e r d i d what the Member, for Conception B a y South did during the recent municipal elections and went out and actively got involved in trying to get her own people involved on council?

What would happen if the Minister appointed people solidly of his political stripe, who would not rock the boat even if they thought it was necessary, who would kowtow to t h e Government? What would happen if we had a whole number of little fiefdorrts out there, with Sir Eric at the top, and they all coining in paying ho in age a 11d s u pp or t i r g the Government regardless of what the .27 November 27, 1990 Uol XLI No. 85 R27

Government did? municipality. j9_rLJ±g.n..±ij!thcr: (Inaudible), Mr. Hearn: it is not a possibility? I assure you it is a very, very solid possibility. Because what we are really doing here is giving the Minister of Municipal Affairs complete control over what goes on right across the Province; because he is handpicking the Chairpersons of all the regional hoards, he is determining the number of people on all these boards ,. And if he were any kind of person except who he is, I would say I would be extremely worried about it..

But, then, when I think that the Minister himself is not going to have the final say in this, I do get extremely worried about it. Because we could have all the municiplities right in the palm of the Government. Of course, the municipalities are at little too smart for , that and they are not going to go along with it, I am quite sure. Because they see what is coming down the pipe now.

They see the Department of Municipal Affairs and they sec. this Govcrrirnen t gradually trying to slough off all the responsibilities to the different agencies in the field: to the school boards, to the libraries boards, to the hospital boards, and now to the municipalities They will abdicate their own direct responsibilities to the people and say to them, it was not us who raised your taxes.

Maybe we did not ive the municipality, rhaybe we dad not give the school board, maybe we did not give the hospital board the money that is needed, but, 1 mean, they are the ones who mal<e the decision so do not talk to us, talk to your local hoard, talk to your local And who gets stuck in the middle? The municipality in this case gets stuck in the middle. . rhe regional board: You are now well organized. You have a large geographic area. You have x number of taxpayers. Tear down your three firehalls and build one. You have a waste of money out here. You do not need your two recreation centres, just develop one.

If you do not have the money to support: ihein all, well, then, that is your problem, do not talk to us. And this is exactly what this Government is trying to do, centralize, regardless of what effect it might have on people, especially when we deal with people in rural Newfoundland. I am not sure whether the Minister is aware of it or not, but scattered throughout this Province we have a number of small, some of them very small, communities, some set off geographically to themselves, some in an area where amalgamation could be successful.

But regardless of where they are geographically, we have some small. communities, exceptionally small in some cases, which have as many facilities, as many necessities along municipal lines as anywhere in the Province. Some of themn are better off in relation to services than the larger centres . And because they are well organized and because they have a history of contributing and because they have a history of taking advantage of different programmes, they have services to compare with St. John's or Corner Brook or Gander or anywhere else. And they pay a fair amount less.

And they a r e paying their own way in a lot of cases. We may have others t hat are not paying their own way, but . ., L28 November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 R28

. there are those examples out there of how it can be done. So bigger is not always necessarily better. Bigger quite often, and we can go to schools or we can go to municipalities or anything else, all depends upon the individuals who are involved. And if you have good administrators, you have good organizers, you have good people, good volunteers in a lot of cases, then whether it is your fire brigade or its your council or its your school board or your small school, you have An Hon. Member: Small is beautiful, Mr.

Hearn: Small is beautiful a lot of times, and it very practical a lot of times, and it is very economical a lot of times. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) philosopher (inaudible) Mr' Hearn: Not always. Sometimes, you know, we do not see the forest for the trees, and sometimes it is good to philosophize. Because some of the people in this Province who are less aggravated who have less to worry about in line of the taxes they pay, are the people who live in small communities, who work very closely together.

And I can take any member into a few communities like that, communities of 300 people who have the services they need and who contribute, all of them equally, and share in the prevision of the services to the individuals in that town or community. So, consequently, I say to the ninister, before he starts forcing areas to get together, he should start thinking carefully.

And I say to municipalities they should look carefully at somebody hearing L29 November 27, 1990 vol XLI gifts, because the towns of Grand Falls and Windsor saw what it was like to have somebody come bearing gifts, and they got quite a surprise when they opened up the package. In this case .it is the minister. I mentioned that the minister had the power to pick, select the number of members on these regional boards; the minister had the power also to select the chairman. The mini ster appoints the board members from councillors nominated.

Now the minister can ask for x number of nominees, and the minister, as undoubtedly the minister will do under direction, will take the nominees who he or she feels he feels in this case, while he is still minister -- undoubtedly will co-operate most with the minister and Government, and that is extremely dangerous. That is a lot of power to give one person, and perhaps it is unfair. And maybe I am being unfair to the minister, but the danger , is there.

And if the minister is not the person of principle everyone thinks he is I am s u r e this minister is, but how much control does the minister really have, or how m u c h d o e s he h a v e in this Government? Because if he h a s' any, he has a lot more power than anyother minister. Because everyone knows who runs the show in this Government. The ministers just do as they are directed. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) Mr. Hearn: And the Member for Exploits should not say a thing about it, because the Member For Exploits has been told to sit and keep quiet and say nothing, or he will not get his promotion.

He has already had his car taken away , and then he had his jeep taken away. I do not know what No. 85 R29 n-i P

. else they' are going to take away Mr, Matthews: (Inaudible) take the chain off his bike. ir. _Hearn: They might take the chain off his bike the next time around. frJhatever powers these boards might have, the powers of the board are prescribed by the minister - no provision for consultation. So the powers being prescribed, the number of board members being selected just from nominations made to the minister, the chairperson being selected by the minister, what a chance for a setup! Then, as I said, the minister sloughs off his responsibility to the areas.

When there is a shortage of funding and belts have to be tightened, the grants are cut and services are cut, where is the blame being put? Put on the boards, And who is going to say nay? Nobody. Because everybody is handpicked by the minister. If there was ever a set—up bill, Mr. Speaker, to enable Government to do what this Government wants to do, centralizc., then this is the bill. And they are attempting to do it, and in doing it get as little flack as is possible, and doing this by making sure they have complete control over the local boards.

It is a sham and a disgrace for the minister to be talking about oh, so much power in the hands of councils, and councils will have say. If that is the case, and if the minister believes it, and that is the way it should be where any amalgamation takes place, and I say again, it should not be forced amalgamation. But if the Minister intends to give the councils power, then put it in writing. The Minister might have every,good intention in the world. rhe Minister may not be the Minis Let" in two months time, he mijh t be the Minister of something higher.

Any Minister who takes on a work load like this Minister deserves to move up. I do not know where you move up in this Government. I think perhaps the Minister is in the highest pinnacle that is there because looking around, anything else would probably be a downturn for him. But the Minister may not be the one in charge and he might have all the good intentions in the world, but as I say to hint, once it is in writing then, of course, the law is the law, the act is the act. It will be interpreted literally. And who has all the power? The Minister, whoever that minister , might he. So perhaps, Mr.

Speaker, t h e Minister will - before they try to ram this through, and already we have been given notice that the Gqvernment intends to invoke closure, unfortunately, for the third time already in this session when only nine people have had a chance to speak to it yet. In fact, only eight had spoken when the Government gave notiQe of closure. Now, I presume what they are trying to do is to cut o f F debate so that people out around cannot really see whaF is entailed in this bill. What it is doing is taking away the powers that councils have.

It is not giving areas more powers, it is taking away any powers that they might have. The powers will be vested not in regional boards, which will control the destiny of the small communities around them, it will be vested in the hands of the Minister who will tell the self appointed people on the regional boards what this Government wants done out around. E think people should be extremely wary of that. HopeFully, as I said, Mr. Speaker, . . L30 November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 R30 p

C . . in the next Few d a y s as we continue to debate the. bill, the Ministe.r will look at changing it; will look at putting in the bill in writing the right for municipalities to have the power to make the changes necessary, but also to remember that in the implementation that forced amalgamation is not going to work. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having legislation deal, in g w i t h ama 1 g ama t ion with regional boards perhaps where the people of the areas want it to happen. There are areas where we can be much better off if we co-operate.

But it can be done through encouragement and promotion rather than by forced amalgamation. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! The hon. the Opposition House Leader. An Hon._Member: What? Mr. Simrns: What do you mean had the question? Sure you are giving notice of closure. What is the point in us not debating it. If you are going to give closure, we will wait and se.e if you are going to give closure. Mr.

Speaker, I want to say a few words on this legislation, on this bill From a number of perspectives not the least of which is my own observations at the beginning and my own reflections at the beginning of this legislation, having had a chance to study it fairly thoroughly, having had a chance to serve on the cornvnittee for a time., having had a chance to sit at th€. public hearings t h a t t h e committee held and heard the views of a number of ropresentatives From all over the Province . So, I think I have had a chance to reflect on thn bill as good as most members IF not better than most members..

I would say that there are a Few members on that side in that same category including the esteemed Chairman of the committee. But I will get to the committee a little later on in my remarks. AnHon. Member: How long are you speaking? Mr. Sirnms: I am here For quite a while. Mr. Speaker, first of all if one reads this bill, if one reads the legislation and if one took t h e time to look at the current existing municipalities legislation, the Municipalities Act, one would have to ask the question: why, in fact, is this new act necessary at all?

That, I think, is a question that would pop off the top of anybody's head if they read this bill, if they reviewed the current municipalities legislation, the bill and the law that are already in place. If one does that, Mr. Speaker, one will clearly see that the intent of this bill, the. Regional Service Boards, is already provided For in many, many ways and in most respects under the current Municipalities Act. Let me give some examples lust to further strengthen my argument.

Provisions in this legislation for the ,p.reparation and content of regional budgets are very similar in the Municipalities Act a n d in this Act; ,very similar in that instance. Both Acts contain similar provisions, provisions for the preparation and the publication of Financial statements and auditors reports. All of that is contained in the Municipalities A c t already. L3 1 November 27. 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 R31

. Secondly, statements concerning long term and short term borrowing, For example. If you look it is quite siimilar in both pieces of legislation, in both Acts, except that the regional service board legislation does not provide for issuance of bonds or debentures. That basically is the only difference. Mr. Speaker, the requirement for the preparation of the five year capital budget, the five year capital budget forecast, are basically the same in both Acts, in the regional services board and in the municipaliHes legislation. And, Mr.

Speaker, as a fourth example, conditions governing the expenditure of money raised by guaranteed loans are similar in both •pieces 4 of legislation, except, again, that the regional services board does not provide for bond and debenture issues. I can go on, Mr. Speaker, but one would have to say, I think, if he or she read both Acts, the existing law in the Municipalities Act and this regional services board, you would have to ask the question, whyl is this Act necessary? In my own view there is really no need for this particular bill in its present form.

I really honestly do not think that much thought went into the development of this particular piece of legislation, because, as I said, the intent! of this legislation, and the legislative provisions of this bill are really similar, particularly to

Part 3 of the Municipalities Act. Have a look at

Part 3 of the Municipalities Act and I think you will find that there is much, much similarity in what is being proposed in this legislation and what is already in existing legislation. So, why is the Act necessary, that is the question?

The current Act, t h e mu n i c i pal it i e s leg is 1 a t ion g iv e s GovernmentS, including the Minis ter of Social Services, God help us, but he is part of the Governirient and we have no choice but to accept that, hut it gives Government the right and the. authority, all the right and authority they need to delineate regions around the Province, to appoint and to elect councillors, and to assign appropriate powers to regional councils.

That is already in the municipalities legislation, and in that Act there is broad flexibility allowed in order to tailor and fit the needs of each council, or regional council. It addresses, and can address, the wishes of councils and municipalities in a particular region, or the residents.

The only major, major difIerence is that under the Municipalities Act before regions can be delineated, before powers can be given to a regional service board, etc., etc . , there is a requirement in the Municipalities Act that says there must be feasibility studies- and public hearings under the Public Inquiries Act, and that, Mr. Speaker, is the glowing diFference between this Act and the existing law, the Municipalities Act, that is the big difference. No feasibility studies, no public hearings. So again since t h e r e are so many similarities you have to ask the question, why is this Act necessary?

If indeed o n e. of t h e. major differences and the only significant major difference at the outset is the fact that no hearings are required. Well I say to you, Mr. Speaker: the major difference in The Municipalities Act a n d in this bi.].l, The Regional Service Boards the niaj or difference a n d the substantive difference is in the arbitrary powers that are given in . . L32 November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 R32

r . this bill to the minister and to t h e Lieutenant-Governor in Council. That is the substantive difference in this bill a n d the current municipalities legislation. Arid the powers have been alluded to by representations that we have received as a Committee on the road, the concerns that these people have about the powers that the Minister will have. Indeed I think the report of the Government Services Leg is 1 at ion Re v i e w Co mliii t tee tabled by my hon. friend, the Member for St. John's South, who chaired that commUnity said ' the following is a

summary of the most common opinions' , and the first one that he identified or the Committee identified was the bill as drafted would concentrate too much power in the hands of the Minister and the Lieutenant—Governor in Council. So the comment I made a moment ago is not simply my comment, it is the comment of the Committee chaired by the Member for St. John's South, including two other Liberal members, members of the Government, who made it clear this was the maj or concern or one of t h e major concerns and opinions expressed it the public hear•ings. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that leads me to ask the question, why then did not the Commit•t cc make recommendations to address that particular , concern? it is a reasonable question. You have identified it, the Committee identified it as a major concern, yet of the recommended amendments by the Government members, the majority on the Committee, because they were not all agreed to, including the minority, they did not include maj or amendments that would allay the concerns of people who expressed that opinion.

Now mind you the minority Committee did, the minority members on the Committee make other substantial amendments, an additional eight or nine or whatever it was to address the concern that most people put forth at those public hearings, that this bill gives too much power to the Minister, and to the Lieutenant—Governor , in Council. So t h e , Committee recognized it, t h e Member for St. John's South, as Chairman, recognized the concern and the opinion that was expressed. However, there was nothing done about it. Nothing purposed to allay those rrmaj or concerns Mr.

Speaker, I had occasion, as I said, to sit on that Committee and during that point in time - what time did I start, Elizabeth? - during that point in time - A -Hon. Member: Sit down your time is upl Mr. Simrns: Oh, no, I say to the member, I am just starting -- during that point in time we heard as I note from reading the Committee s repurt , 1 think it was twenty—one presentations , and I know there have been comments flicked across from time to time about saying, you know, then: is another 380 or 400 conrmmunitie.s or municipalities that did not attend the public hearings .

Nell that may very well be, and I do not think any of us on the Committee expected 400 municipalities to turn out, no matter how much concern their might have been. Nobody expected that kind of a turn out. But I would say that twenty--one presentations is a reasonably good turn out. Let us not forget that one oft he maj or presentations we received as a Corrirriittee was f rom the 1-33 November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 R33

. NeIAIfOLJ nd:iand and Labrador Federation of Municipa]J.ties and a lot of municipalities had assumed that the Federation • was going to make a presentation and speak on their behalf, and they did. And indeed, Mr. Speaker, I will get to it in a moment, if you will read the brief presented to the Committee by the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Municipalities they made certain recommendations that this Committee report did not address - did not address. The minority Co rim i t tee rep or t, I t hi ii k, addressed some of them.

I am going to get to those eventually, because I think we would all accept that the- Federation of Municipalities does speak, to a certain extent at least, on behalf of the elected municipal governments in this Province. And if they make some recommendations which they feel are important and significant and seen as . an improvement to the legislation, then we as legislators should listen to those people.

And unless there is some major reason why we cannot pursue those amendments or those changes, - we should move the changes, we should make the changes But it will be interesting to see IF the Minis ter is prepared to accept amendments, I know that some amendments will be accepted; I have no doubt the amendments recommended by the Committees report, the majority, I have no doubt that those amendments, for example, will be accepted by the Government.

I have no reason to expect that they will not acc'ept the amendments proposed by thir own members on the Committee Nhethe.r they will accept the amendments moved by the other members on the Commni ttee is another quest:ion But I cannot For the life of me, if I coui.d only Find it here Mr. Speaker: Order, please! I wonder if the hon. Member would just allow me a few minutes to introduce some people whom we have in the gallery. Mr. Simms: Absolutely, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Sjçer: On behalF of all hon.

Members I would like to welcome to the House of Assembly n i n e s t u d en t s f r o ii Cabot Collegiate, Bonavista, accompanied by their teachers, violet and Wayne Lodge, and bus driver, Edgar March Some Hon. Members: Hear, Hear! Mr._pflr: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. Mr.Simms: Mr. Speaker, you are not allowed to refer to people in the gallery and things like that during debate, so I probably will not, but I am almost prepared to let the MeiTiber get up for a few minutes and say a few words in the debate to allow his cons ti -tuents an opportunity to hear him speak in the debate and at-tack the.

Opposition. I am almost tempted to do that, but under the rules I cannot do that just now, because .L will lose my time. nHon. Member: Do it. Do it! Some Hon._Members: By leave. Mr. - Simm: No. Nell, the other , thing is it interrupts your train of thought, if I were to dot hat - That is the o Lher reason. Some Hon. Members : Oh, oh! . . L34 Nouemhe.r 27, 1990 vol XLI No. 85 R34

. S IS (inaudible) assuming you do not speak. Mr. Simins: Oh, no, I cannot he unkind. I cannot be unkind. There are other things I could say, but I will not. The Member for Bonavista South is a fine gentleman and a fine individual. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! ins: Unfortunately, he is a Member of the wrong political party. . Other than that -. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, I have no reason at all to believe that the amendments proposed by the Chairman of the Government Services Legislative Review Committee will not be accepted by the Government, no reason to believe it in the world.

For example, let us listen, lust let us listen to some of the major recommendations made by the Committee, the majority members of the Committee, which are the three Liberal Members in the Government - the two Conservative Members on that Committee did not agree with all of these and wanted others M...Murphy: They did agree with the. in They did agree with these, I guess. There were no major objections, but there were a lot of others they wanted which the maj ority members would not give, sole xpect the amendments to be accepted by the Minister in Committee stage.

For example, I cannot see the Minister or the Government neglecting to accept this very significant recommendation made by the Committee., and I refer to recommendation F in the Committee' s report. They recommend, Mr. Speaker, thattle. Go v e r ii ri e n t c o n s i d e r i nt rod u c i rig amendments to provide for, F, that the word 'deleted' in subclause 17 (3) be replaced by the word debited . Now, that is one of their major recommendations and I have no doubt - I have no doubt - that the Government will accept that amendment.

Here is another major one: That the deadline for submitting budgets be abandoned from December 31st to November 301th. I think they will accept that. I have a funny feeling the Government w -i. iT accept that amendment. Now none of those amendments have much to do with the maj or areas of concerns we heard - the maj or areas of concerns - but some OF the other amendments proposed by the minority members on the Committee would do a lot, I think, to alleviate a lot of the concerns and opinions expressed by those people who attended our public hearings Now, Mr.

Speaker, just before I get carried away with the time, I do not want to lose my opportunity to move an amendment An Hon. Member: What? Mr. Simms : I want to move an amendment at the present time, in second reading of this bill, which, if in order, and I have no doubt Your Honour will rule it is in order once he has had a chance to look at it, that would then give me, I say to members opposite, another thirty minutes to speak in the debate, just so you would be aware of it and familiar with it. Mr. Speaker, at this point in time, before I get on with the t35 November 27, 1990 vol XLI No. 85 R35

-C C rest of my comments • I want to move, seconded by the Member For Torngat Mountains , that all the words alter the word 'that' be deleted and the following be substituted therefore: 'Bill 38,

An Act Respecting The Creation Of Regional Service Boards Throughout The Province be not now read a second time, but that it be read a second time this day six months hence', which is the famous six month hoist. Some_Hon. Members: Hear, hear! r.akr: Maybe we can recess briefly and check the amendment to see that it is in order. Recess Mr.peaker: Order, please! The Chair h a s ruled that the amendment put forward by the hon. the Opposition House Leader is in order. Some Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Mr-Speaker: T h e. hon. the Opposition House Leader speaking to the amendment Mr.Simms: Mr.

Speaker, the amendment is, of course, that this bill did not receive enough thought and consideration when it was first put together in the view f the Opposition, and in view of the representations received from around the Province and so on, it was felt that the only responsible approach we could take as an Opposition is to give the public even more time to consider what is in this legislation, give the minister, in particular, more tilTie to reconsider the approach that he has taken with this legislation. and simply defer, the second read :i 19 ID a s i. c a 1.1 y U n I,: Ti. 1 n C X •t spring There is no apparent urgency, and certainly when the minister introduced the bill on November 1, I think it was, there was no reference in his speech that we could find which addressed the urgency required, so thus the reason for the six month hoist.

Mr. Speaker, in speaking to that six month hoist amendment, obviously we are still dealing with the same topic and the same issue of the regional service boards legislation, and I want to say to the minister, for example, in his statements on November 1, when he introduced the bill - I think it was then, if not it was some other time when he and I were exchanging comments across the House with respect to the need for this legislation - the minister made reference to the Exploits Valley Regional Service Board.

The minis ter will recall that no doubt, and I think his words were to the effect that the Exploits Valley Regional Service Board wanted this bill. The minister can confirm or deny if t hat was in fact an accurate quote of his, and I believe it was. Unfortunately, he is not paying attention to the debate, I guess, and cannot acknowledge For me, but I do not want to quote him wrong I was hoping I could get the minister's attention just for a brief second, because I do not want to quote him out of context or quite him inaccurately.

But I believe somewhere throughout the course of the debate, either in his introduction or when he and I were exchanging comments back and forth, somewhere he made reference to the Exploits Regional Service Board, and that they wanted t h i s bill . I believe it is correct to . . L36 November 27, 1990 Vol XLI No. 85 R36

. . C IN q u o t e him as s a y i n g that, in making reference, to that I do not want to say he said itif he did not say it, but I am quite sure he did. I was just hoping that he would acknow].edge yes, he said that. Mr. Gullaqe: May I ask him a question, Mr. Speaker? Mn Sirnms: Yes. I give leave, sure. Go ahead. The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs I would have to check back with Hansard to see exactly what I said, Mr.

Speaker, but certainly if I did not say it I probably should have, in the sense that the Exploits Regional Service Board requires the legislation so that it would have a legal corporate entity in place to enable them to borrow money in the name of a board that 'would represent the member communities, the three - two towns now - the two towns that are in place. So I im sure they would want the legislation.

I cannot imagine they would not want the legislation, because I fail to see how they can proceed much further as far as developing the services that are required in the area, and the member knows what they are, without an incorporated board. It is virtually impossible to do so. An Hon. Member: Is that true, Len? Mr .Sajer: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: I hesitate to ask the minisUr has he read the brief presented to the Legislative Review Committee by the Board, presented by Mr. Terry Goodyear as a matter of fact, the Deputy Mayor at the time, a crieiiher of the Board?

Because if hd read the presentation it would be Fairly clear to him that they certainly were nd all excited about this legislation. And I will go through some of the quotes for him just to make sure, to refresh his memory. Because if he h,as read it, he probably read it weeks ago, so I want to refresh his memory.

The other point I will m a k e, is this, and we asked the Exploits Regional Service Board, in fact, Committee members will recall, we asked directly the members of that board, when they made their presentation, if they wanted this legislation and their answer was that in their view, there was no particular reason to have this legislation for them, all they require, because they have operated fairly well for eleven years I think it is, but all they would require, and you are right they need to have some legislative authority, but they would be quite happy with a simple piece of legislation for their particular operation, their board, their regional service board that has been in effectfor eleven years.

And that was one of their main points. But is all--encompassing piece of iegislation, which puts everybody in the same category, in the whole Province, is not required by the Exploits Valley Regional Service Board, and hopefully the minister will have to admit that. Mr. Gullage: It is not just being done for them. Mr. Simms: No, I realize that. But one of the main reasons it was done was because of the need for some authority For the Exploits Regional Service Board which, L37 November 27. 1990 vol XLI No. 85 fl?

perhaps, is oru-. of The best examples of a regional service board that could operate in the Province. it is certainly one OF the longest boards; I suppose Metro Board is considered to be a regional service board of some sort, but the Exploits Regional Service Board is probably one of the best. examples you could find. Here is what they had to say about this legislation - and I am making the point because the minister has said in the past they need this, they want it, and so on and so forth, and that is not quite accurate, Now, Mr.

Speaker, it is important, of course, to give some brief background ' to the Exploits Regional Service Board, because of its experience. What happened was that in 1979, eleven years ago, a board was established called the Exploits Regional Water Supply. &!iJiaJi2ffiP2.r: How many? Mr.Sins: Three towns, the towns of Windsor, Grand ' Falls and Bishop's Falls. And that is when they all began using a common water supply. An .i±ap....,Membp.r: One water supply .MrEmi: One water supply, yes, a co_mmon water supply. In 1979, tI'iose three communities started using a common water supply.

They had a fairly elaborate intake system, they had sixteen kilometers of water main, and they had a chemical feeder building, which all, as a unit, had to be operated and maintained. So, the creation of that original board in 1979, eleven years ago, was the initiative of the three towns, themselves. They did it themselves . They drafted up a cons titu Lion which specified what the financial input OF the individual conj,i unities would be.

A short time later, they changed the nante of the board to the Exploits Regional Service Board, because their mandate was broadened to not j u s t deal with water, supply, but to include incineration. And, Mr. Speaker, in 1989, again their mandate was expanded to help the region in its efforts to obtain a sewerage treatment operation plant For the three communities. So, it is called the Exploits Regional Service Board, in place eleven years, with a good deal OF experience.

The board is made up of two elected representatives, councillors, from each of the three communities, and those six members, each year elect the chairperson. They decide who the chairperson, from within their own ranks, will be. They draw up a budget each year, and each town is billed for its share on a per capita basis. That is the way they deal with it. rhe Town of Grand Falls acts as the administrator - or L he board, because - the member asked earlier - the board is not incorporated and cannot legally enter into agreements with the provincial Government, and so on. Hon. Member: (Inaudible) municipal Mr.

Simms: Yes. So, by agreement, the Town of Grand Falls handle all the administration. There is no remuneration for members of the board, separate from anything they are entitled to as a councillor, nor is there any remuneration, by the way, I might say to the Member for Placent.ia, who shows some interest in this, there is no pay or remuneration for the person who act s as the . . L38 November 27, 1990 vol XLI No, 85 R38

-c 4 admi ni $ trator That pe r s on happens to he the lown Manager for the Town of Grand Fails Mr. Speaker, I will not go through all the details of the Exploits Regional Service Board's presentation, but I would suggest to member's opposite they might want to get it. Because they clearly have made the point they don't need this legislation, They need legislation for themselves, but they don' t need this particular legislation. And they had the some concerns as expressed by other municipalities at the p LI hi i c hear i rig s Lii r o u g h out the Province with respect to the legislation.

Because we did press them and say, 'Yes, we understand you need some legislative authority, and all that. What about this particular piece of legislation? Can you give us your views on that?" And they did. I just want to conclude with recommendations made by the Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Municipalities, which I commented on briefly earlier on in my comments . I mentioned some of the major re c omrnend atio n s they had made which have not been addressed by the Committee, and which I hope the Minister will consider when we get into Comrrrttee stage on this particular bill.

One of the major recommendations made by the Federation of Municipalities is that a further subsection be added clearly setting out that the participation of municipalities be entirely at the discretion of the individual municipal councils. Now that is a recommendation of the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities. I do not see it in the recommendation of the majority report of the Committee.

Now surely if the Federation of L39 November 27, 1990 Vol XLI Mayors and Municipalities, or whatever it is called, make that as a major recommendation, in fact it is the first one they make in their presentation, then that must be one that the Minister must consider. And hopefully he will when we get to Committee, so that we can move an appropriate amendment. They want to see a

section added which says municipalities will only be required to participate if they so desire. In other words, they will not be forced to participate. Now, that is from the Federation of Municipalities. I am sure the Minister is aware of that. An_Hon. Member: Very much so. Mr. Simms: Very much aware of it. But he obviously does not agree with the recommendation, or at least he has not given any indication of it to my knowledge, and the Committee has not made a recommendation to change it.

Moving to another recommendation which I do not think has been accepted, or there has been no indication yetthat it has been accepted, is the recommendation that would allow the board to select a Chairperson From among their , own inerribers . Such as that exists now in the Exploits Valley Board. That is the second recommendation made - by the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities . in ' their presentation. So neither the first recommendation as an amendment, nor this second one as an amendment, that the members themselves chose their Chairperson, have been accepted, have they?

I am not quite sure on the second one. No, it does not say. It is not recommended by the Committee., so maybe the Minister can address that and tell us why No. 85 R39 L

-c he is not go:i.rig to accept that, or if, in fact, he is Simply because the Committee did not recominend it, the Minister stifl may be prepared to accept such an amendment in Committee. We will have to wait and see. But we have no indication from him that he is prepared to do it. About the one person I can find, or at least one in particular who took the time to write the Committee, who disagreed with the suggestion that the Chairperson should come from among the elected councillors on the board, is the outgoing Mayor of St Johns, Mr. Murphy.

There was some comment made, I think by Andy Wells, who made the presentation on behalf of the city, that maybe Mr. Murphy is looking for a job as the Chairperson of this particular Committee down the road - who knows? Anyway, the point is that was a major recommendation l not accepted. Mr. Speaker, there were also a number of others I want to get to, but I know my friend for St.

John's east Extern - these are important amendments, and hopefully somebody else will pick up on them later on tonight, or whatever, There are a whole number of amendments proposed by the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities that have not been addressed.. Mr.Ho_jp: You were so anxious to speak for a long while, why are you in a hurry now? M.r. _Simms: Because my friend for St. John's East Extern, I say to my friend for Placentia, will not he able to join us tonight as we sit here in this hon. House. I am ass wiling members opposite are aware that we will he sitting in this hon. House tonight.

They are not aware? Well, I have just told them. I have stolen the thunder From the Government House Leader, I guess. My understanding is that the Government House Leader intends to force another sitting tonight on the members of the House. My friend from St. Johns East Extern will not be able to be here, and I want to give him a chance because he is an experienced personality at the municipal level, being a former Mayor and all the rest of it. I want to give him thirty minutes or so to speak to this bill. We will have lots more people to t