April 12, 2006 SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Beth Marshall, MHA for Topsail,

replaces Felix Collins, MHA for Placentia & St. Mary's; and Wally Young,

MHA for St. Barbe, replaces Kathy Goudie, MHA for Humber Valley.

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in Room 5083.

CHAIR (Mr. Ridgley): The lights are on so we are ready to roll. I will

ask the members of the Committee to introduce themselves, please.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, MHA for the District of Port au Grave.

MS E. MARSHALL: Beth Marshall, MHA for the District of Topsail.

MR. YOUNG: Wally Young, MHA for the District of St. Barbe, substituting

for Kathy Goudie.

MR. FRENCH: Terry French, MHA for the District of Conception Bay South

and Holyrood.

CHAIR: I would ask the Minister to introduce herself, and I guess the

staff can so the same for themselves.

MS BURKE: Joan Burke, Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for

the Status of Women. Do you want me to introduce the officials or will they

introduce themselves?

CHAIR: Entirely up to you, Minister, whichever is better.

MS BURKE: Go ahead, Rick.

MR. HAYWARD: Rick Hayward, ADM, Corporate Services.

MR. HOLLETT: Bruce Hollett, Deputy Minister.

MR. DENINE: Dave Denine, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister.

MS COCHRANE: Rachelle Cochrane, ADM, Advanced Education.

MR. THOMPSON: Jack Thompson, Director of Financial Services.

CHAIR: Thank you all.

Just one thing which we have learned in the four or five we have had so far

and I will mention at the outset of this, is that if you are a member of the

Committee doing questioning, just out of regard for the staff and the minister,

if you decide to leave we will assume that you have finished questioning rather

than leave for an extended period and then come back and start questioning

again, because there may very well have been topics covered in your absence.

That really would not really be fair to anybody.

Minister, I will ask the Clerk to call the first subhead.

CLERK (Calvin Lake): Thank you.

Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Shall subhead 1.1.01 carry?

Minister, we will turn it to you then for your introductory comments.

MS BURKE: No, I am ready to start.

CHAIR: The minister is ready to roll there, so I guess, Mr. Butler, it is

over to you.

MR. BUTLER: Yes. I just wanted to explain, Mr. Chair, first, that the

Member for Cartwright will be here shortly, but I will be staying, apart from

probably going out to the washroom when she gets here, but I will not be leaving

to come back and ask questions.

CHAIR: Okay.

When the Member for Cartwright-L'Anse au Clair shows up, if there are

questions that have been covered in her absence and she happens to ask them you

will understand if the members or the minister or the people indicate that we

have already dealt with them.

MR. BUTLER: I think I will take care of that because I am going with the

subheads, just the figures, and I think she will be only asking questions on the

Status of Women.

CHAIR: Okay. Thank you very much.

All yours.

MR. BUTLER: All right.

The first one is page 169, subhead 1.2.01. That is under Executive Support,

the Salaries. I notice the budgeted was for $812,000, then it was revised to

$918,100, and this year again it is estimated to be $868,600. I was just

wondering what created the differences there,

MS BURKE: The difference was, there were increased expenditures in

relation to severance and annual leave payouts. This number, the $868,600, is

the salaries plus there is $56,500 up from the 2005-2006 original budget. That

is the negotiated salary increase plus the secretarial support for the Director

of Communications.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Subhead 2.1.01, Transportation and Communications: I was just wondering if

you could give me a rundown on those. I know the budgeted this year was the same

as the budgeted was revised to, $357,000. If you could just give a breakdown of

what that entailed.

MS BURKE: What was the question again?

MR. BUTLER: I am just wondering could you give me the breakdown on the

Transportation and Communications under that heading? That is 2.1.01.03,

Administrative Support.

MR. HAYWARD: That basically consists of three items, the departmental

mail budget of around $318,000, the travel component for the administrative

staff in human resources and finance of $23,600, and telephone of $32,600 in

this fiscal year. They will go up and down. The revised is down a little because

of the fluctuation in those expenditures.

MR. BUTLER: Under the same heading, under 05, Professional Services, I

know last year it was budgeted and revised to $25,000, this year it is $550,000.

I was just wondering -

MS BURKE: There is an additional $150,000 this year for the independent

review of the ISSP process. We also announced $250,000 which will be the review

of the teacher allocation formula, and there is $125,000 put aside for a

dedicated resource to deal with the school councils.

MR. BUTLER: That was the announcements that were in the Budget for those

two or three programs?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Subhead 2.1.02, Grants and Subsidies: I know last year it was

revised to $2 million, but really this year it has gone to $3,110,000. I am just

wondering what the -

MS BURKE: This year we have for the Newfoundland and Labrador Women's

Institute, $34,800; for the Council of the Ministers of Education, CMEC,

$34,500; Newfoundland and Labrador Federation of Schools Councils, $30,000;

Newfoundland and Labrador School Boards Association, the industrial relations

officer, one position, $59,600; provincial membership in the Atlantic Provinces

Education Foundation is $129,400; the Newfoundland Fine Arts program is $1.2

million; the Brother TI Murphy Centre is $516,000; Encounters with Canada is

$21,600; the Licensed Practical Nurse program is $267,300, Atlantic Provinces

Community College Consortium, which is the APCCC, is $30,000; Learning

Disability Association of Newfoundland and Labrador is $25,000; assistance to

educational agencies for C-Map for the Pan-Canadian Assessment, $40,000, the

Healthy Schools initiative, the school food guidelines, is $250,000; the

apprenticeship training program for skilled trades persons is $300,000; and the

national Interchange on Canadian Studies conference is $150,000.

MR. BUTLER: The next heading is 2.1.04, Administrative Support. I know

this is a savings and you will probably say: Why are you asking questions on

that one? I know there was $30,000 last year and there is none this year. I am

just wondering if that was a one time expenditure, I guess.

MS BURKE: That is in relation to information technology which as

September 1 became the responsibility of the OCIO.

MR. BUTLER: Under 3.1.01, Substitute Teachers: I know the figures there

are fairly consistent, but it is a fairly large number. I was just wondering,

has anything been done just to look at the format and see what is causing all

substitute teachers - I am not saying there is anything wrong with it, maybe it

is all legitimate and above board but it is up in the (inaudible).

MS BURKE: The policy for hiring substitute teachers, is that what you are

asking about?

MR. BUTLER: Basically. Really, I suppose, is there any duplication that

probably could be eliminated to cut back on that number?

MS BURKE: The substitute teachers - Rick, you can jump in on this as well

- would be hired according to their collective agreement, so it would be based

on a teacher being seconded into another position and not being available for

work, and the collective agreement would allow for somebody to be hired to do

their services. We would not hire substitute teachers if it was not according to

why we needed them in the schools or whatever.

MR. BUTLER: Would that entail, for instance, someone who is off sick and

you would get a substitute in the morning; a last minute call. That would be

included in that figure?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Under 3.1.02, item10, Student Assistants. That is increased

from $10.982 million to $11.221 million. I was wondering, does that mean there

were more hours or an increase in pay?

MS BURKE: That would be the negotiated salary increase.

MR. BUTLER: Probably a lot of those I am going to be asking would be the

same question.

MS BURKE: That is fair enough.

MR. BUTLER: Under 3.1.03, Native Peoples' Education: Is that where they

have their new governance now?

MS BURKE: Yes, it is.

MR. BUTLER: I thought it was, but I said I would ask the question. There

are probably a couple there like that.

Under 3.1.05, School Supplies, item 04, Supplies: I know it was budgeted last

year for $5.7 million and went to $9.7 million. I was just wondering about the

difference there. I know it is up again this year, and that is probably

understandable through your Budget announcements or whatever.

MS BURKE: Under this, we have invested $450,000 in technology curriculum

from K to 12, as well as $1.1 million into the applied route to graduation which

is the courses in the trade skills; $2.2 million in laboratory and safety

equipment; and $1 million in consumables.

MR. BUTLER: Subhead 3.1.06.10 Grants and Subsidies under Special

Measures, last year, I know, it was budgeted and revised the same, and this year

it is $2,500,000.

MS BURKE: Rick?

MR. HAYWARD: If you look ahead to 3.2.02, Mr. Butler, these are federal

programs related to French language programs. Last year the amount to be voted

was $3.541 million in Language Programs and in 3.1.06 it was $1.4 million, so

that is around $4.9 million. This year we spend the $2.9 million in Language

Programs and the $2.7 million. It is really reallocation by the federal

government between the two programs. Their level of commitment has gone up a

bit, I think, from $4.9 million to $5.6 million. It is just how they spend their

funding in the federal system and how they fund it.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, Sir.

Subhead 3.1.09, School Facilities - New Construction and Alterations to

Existing Facilities: We have there the revised last year was $5 million and this

year it is $17 million. I am wondering what new schools or what renovations for

schools would be included in that?

MR. HAYWARD: That would be cash flows on Herdman and Mobile being

different in 2005-2006 than 2006-2007, particularly the project in Corner Brook

on Herdman which is going to go from around $3 million to $7 million this year.

That accounts for part of the difference. The other part of the difference is

that there is $6.5 million in there to address the long-term plan requirements

under the school board Capital Construction Program.

MR. BUTLER: Six point five million?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: What of the $6.5 million would be, say, for new school

construction? I am not saying it is going ahead but I heard in our area - I will

just use one as an example, Ascension Collegiate - there are supposed to be

renovations. I am sure the same is right throughout the school board. Out of

that $6.5 million, would you know what would be going for new school

construction as versus renovations to some of the other buildings where the

students will be moving from one school to the other?

MS BURKE: What is being renovated versus what is being built now?

MR. HAYWARD: There is $7 million in there for Herdman, $5 million for

Mobile and $1.4, I believe, for Leary's Brook. The other $6.5 has not been

allocated yet, Mr. Butler.

MR. BUTLER: That would be hinging on, I guess, the final report, not only

from the Eastern School Board District but from all the districts in the

Province. Would that be correct?

MS BURKE: Right, and it would include new school construction as well as

renovations. They might want to build a new wing on or take a wing off or

something, or a new school. As they finalize their plans and they come in to

government, that pot of money will be allocated for that.

MR. BUTLER: You say there will be $6.5 million there?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Subhead 3.2.01, Curriculum Development, under 05, Professional Services,

$17,700 to $667,700. I am just wondering if you can explain that one for me.

MS BURKE: There is $300,000 to develop the courses for the applied route

to graduation - the skilled trades route we should be calling it, not the

applied route -$50,000 for the technology curriculum review from K-12, and there

is $300,000 for the Newfoundland and Labrador history course.

MR. BUTLER: Subhead 3.2.02 - I am sorry, you clarified that one from the

other day. It is just one we went ahead to. I apologize for that one.

Subhead 3.4.04, Grants and Subsidies: The one in Salaries, would that be for

additional staff being hired, the $331,600 to $447,800.

MR. HAYWARD: That is correct. We have allocated a couple of extra IT

support positions in CDLI this year and that is why the increase in salaries.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

I guess the Transportation and Communications, the increase there, the

$200,000 or $100 and some-odd thousand, would be applicable to the increase in

the staff.

MS BURKE: It is the net effect of the increases to the connectivity costs

and then a reallocation within the CDLI block. I guess, it is the cost of doing

business.

MR. BUTLER: Under 3.4.05, Grants and Subsidies, I know they budgeted $4.8

million and the revised was $1 million and now it is $5.9 million. From the

budgeted revised down to the $1 million, could you explain that one to me?

MR. HAYWARD: That is the Broadband project that the Province has

partnered with the federal government and a local IT supplier. It is $30 million

program cost-shared by the private sector of the Province and the federal

government. We had budgeted $5 million this year but we only spent $1 million

because of the environmental assessment process and that kind of thing. In

2006-2007, we will be spending $6 million cost-shared with the federal

government, and in the following year we will be spending the remainder of our

$10 million in funding in total between the two levels of government.

MR. BUTLER: I guess it is in relation to the 4.1.01, Post Secondary

Education. This is just a question, it is not from one of the lines there. I was

wondering if the minister or one of your officials could provide the latest

report on the operations of private institutions being carried out. Not so much

this year, but over a period of time we used to hear a lot about the private

institutions and so on. I was wondering how that is working out now?

MS COCHRANE: We have about thirty private schools operating in the

Province today and about 2,700 to 3,000 students. We do not have anywhere near

the issues we used to have with respect to institutions closing and students

being displaced. We have operated with the new train-out fund that helps train

students if an institution closes. We also have a fair degree of co-operation

within the private college association now. If there is indication that a

institution may close, there is an agreement with other operators and they will

come in and train out those students so the flow of train-out is fairly smooth.

We have not had any recent closures in the last several years.

MR. BUTLER: While I am on that vein, I guess: With regard to the private

schools and the other colleges, as well as the university, could someone give me

a figure of approximately how many young people would graduate at any given year

in this Province overall?

MS BURKE: From high school or post secondary?

MR. BUTLER: Post-secondary, yes.

MS BURKE: I should have that here.

MS COCHRANE: We have about 3,000 to 4,000 graduating from Memorial every

year. Those are round numbers. We would have certainly a couple of thousand,

maybe 3,000, at the College of the North Atlantic because their programs are

shorter in duration so they graduate much more frequently. At the privates, I

would estimate we would probably have 1,500 graduates a year as well. In terms

of enrollment, there are 18,000 students enrolled at the University, we have

about 6,000 at the College of the North Atlantic, and we have about 3,000

students enrolled in private colleges.

MR. BUTLER: If I caught the figures right, you are saying approximately

somewhere between 6,000 and 6,500 would graduate each year from the different

institutions?

MS COCHRANE: Yes, that would be about right. Less at the University

because their programs span about four years, so even thought they have 18,000

enrolled, on an average basis they would only graduate about 3,000 to 4,000.

MR. BUTLER: I do not mean to be sarcastic, but you wouldn't be able to

tell me how many of those have to leave our Province, because we would need a

big turn over regardless of what is happening here in the Province - do you know

what I'm saying? - to hire on all of those trained and skilled people, the

6,500 in any given year.

MS COCHRANE: We do have those numbers. It is in our Career Search

document which we have been publishing for nearly twenty years now. We track

out-migration of graduates by each institution type. We do have it for Memorial,

the college and private colleges. The out-migration of Memorial graduates has

been falling. There are more graduates now staying in the Province than ever

before.

MR. BUTLER: You wouldn't have the numbers right there now, say of the

6,500? Just approximate.

MS COCHRANE: It is around 72 per cent to 75 per cent at the University,

and for the private colleges and the College of the North Atlantic it is more in

the range of 85 per cent or 87 per cent staying in-Province.

MR. BUTLER: The University was what, I'm sorry?

MS COCHRANE: It is between 72 per cent and 75 per cent who would stay

in-Province, and at the college and the private colleges the number who stay

in-Province would be much higher, more in the 80 per cent to 85 per cent range.

MR. BUTLER: I know this year there is money in for various skills and

trades people to try and get more because we know there is a shortage coming

down the road anyway. Based on that, do you foresee many more people coming into

the system. If that is the rate we are keeping here now, up around 70 per cent

and 80 per cent, that is higher than I though it would have been anyway. What do

you foresee the figures would have to be to reach the goal we are talking about,

Minister, with regard to skilled people, if they are staying in the Province at

this rate, to meet the demand say a few years down the road for skills people?

MS BURKE: Actually, that is something that we have embarked on through

the Skills Task Force that we have set up. The Department of Human Resources,

Labour and Employment has been involved in - and I do not know if it is

completed yet - two research studies on the labour market, so we have been

getting the research done. Now we need to be able to find out what the gaps are,

what the capacities of the colleges are now compared to what they are going to

need to be and where we need to focus the programs. We do not have that full

information yet but we certainly think that is very necessary as we move forward

to make sure that the programs that we offer in the colleges are applicable to

what the labour market demands are going to be. We can have some wonderful

programs but if they do not match to what the demands are going to be, or the

demands in this Province, we are not going to be able to retain the graduates as

you have indicated. It is just something that we are very concerned about.

MR. BUTLER: That was my next question. I was wondering: With the

information you would have, what shortages are we looking at more or less? I

will just use the trades, say plumbers, carpenters, brick layers, that types of

trade - I do not want to downgrade those people because I was one of those

myself - or higher skilled people, up say in the engineering fields and things

like that? Where do you see the biggest shortages, probably?

MS BURKE: I do not know exactly, but it is going to be that full range

because it is going to be, I think, on both ends. Where the biggest gap is going

to be, whether it is in the highly technical jobs in the oil and gas industry or

in the traditional skilled trades, I am not sure where it is going to be. That

is the type of information that we certainly need. I would think, based on the

labour market and certainly our demographics and on the baby boomers as they

retire, we are probably going to see substantial gaps in many areas.

CHAIR: Mr. Butler, pardon me for a second. Just for the benefit of the

people doing the recording, I just want to note that Ms Yvonne Jones just joined

the committee.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. BUTLER: My next question is on 4.1.03, the Atlantic Veterinary

College in P.E.I.. I was just wondering, that $634,000 where it says Grants and

Subsidies, is that for people after they finish university here or

post-secondary or high school and they move on to go to college there? What is

that amount of money used for?

MS BURKE: That is our share, as the Province, as to what we pay to the

Atlantic Veterinary College, because there is only one, I guess, in Atlantic

Canada. We contribute to that college on an annual basis in order to have access

to some seats in that program.

MR. BUTLER: It has nothing to do with assisting anybody going there per

say?

MS BURKE: No. This is a grant to the college itself.

MR. BUTLER: I guess that helps with - I know there is a summer program

there, a three-week summer program, because my grandson got selected this year.

I think there were 500 or 600 applied from across the country. They go there in

July for four or five days a week. I guess that is all tied in with it and that

is why you get so many picked here from this Province and other provinces as

well.

MS BURKE: Right. That is what guarantees the number of seats for people

from Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. BUTLER: Because he is only in Grade 8 or Grade 9, but they take him

there in the summertime.

MS BURKE: I am not sure if this grant covers that. I guess we contribute

to the college for people who go into the studies, the full-time studies, to be

veterinarians. Being able to maintain the college, I guess, gives them access to

offer a variety of programs other than that particular program.

MR. BUTLER: Subhead 4.1.05, Professional Services, Adult Learning and

Literacy, I know there was nothing there for 2005-2006 and $228,400 estimated

for 2006-2007.

MS BURKE: That is in relation to the curriculum review that we are doing

for the Adult Basic Education and the GED program.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Seeing that you mentioned that program, how did it work out? The one in Deer

Lake had to close. Where did they go to after, the students who were there?

MS BURKE: The College of the North Atlantic in Deer Lake offered Level I

and II. When we, I guess, stopped the funding for the Deer Lake Learning Centre,

out of the seven students I think three should have been in Level II so they

went right on into Level II which was offered at the College of the North

Atlantic, and the College expanded their courses to be able to accommodate the

others who were in Level I. They stayed in Deer Lake and they moved into the

College of the North Atlantic.

MR. BUTLER: So, they are all still in the program, basically?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I guess I know the answer - I do not know the answer, no, but

I will surmise what is coming on this one. Subhead 4.2.02, Physical Plant and

Equipment: I know you announced in your Budget about new equipment for the

different colleges and so on. I guess that is what that is in relation to, CONA

and so on, is it?

MS BURKE: Which one are we -

MR. BUTLER: Subhead 4.2.02.10, Grants and Subsidies, from $7,900,000 to

$20,400,000.

MS BURKE: Yes.

That is an additional $13 million in block funding capital for Memorial

University.

MR. BUTLER: Oh, it is just for Memorial University.

MS BURKE: Right.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, I am sorry.

Was it also mentioned, something about equipment for the others, like the

College of the North Atlantic? That is probably under another heading, is it?

MS BURKE: Right.

MR. BUTLER: Oh yes, it is the next page.

MS BURKE: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Mr. Chair, I can pass over now. That is all of mine on those

issues here. If Ms Jones -

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. Butler.

Ms Jones.

MR. BUTLER: I did not ask any questions, only on the subheads and

figures, so you can go right into -

CHAIR: We indicated at the beginning, that if there were duplicate

questions it would certainly be within the purview of the staff or the minister

to say: We have dealt with it already.

MS JONES: Okay.

CHAIR: I don't think it will be, because Mr. Butler just indicated that

he would do the line items from start down to where we just stopped.

MS JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Minister and officials for

being here this evening.

I have a couple of questions. I am going to start with my district, I guess.

Back in the 2004 Budget, there was funding on the table to do a K to 6 school

for L'Anse au Loup, and it was put on hold by government in that budget year.

I understand since then the board has been through a number of exercises in

terms of looking at the configuration of schools in that particular area. From

their web site I can gather they passed a motion or a recommendation to the

department that there should be one school in that area. I am just wondering if

it has been considered by the department at this stage and what the plan is for

that area.

MS BURKE: They did give notice of the motion, but they will be doing a

public consultation process before they come back to the Department of Education

with a plan or with any requests. I understand they will start engaging in that

process. They indicated that they had engaged in a public consultation, but a

number of years had passed and they felt in fairness that they should update

what they have been doing up there on a local level.

MS JONES: When would you anticipate those consultations to occur? Would

it be in the fall? I mean, we are getting near the end of the school year, I

guess?

MR. HOLLETT: They have not indicated to us exactly when they are going to

do those consultations, but we are expecting that they would probably begin them

this spring and summer, maybe leading into the fall.

MS JONES: They also made a motion to close the school in Lodge Bay to bus

kids to Mary's Harbour - I think it is a K to 7 school there now - and also a

motion in Pinsent Arm, where there is a K to 6 school, to close that school and

to bus those children to Charlottetown. Have those motions or recommendations

been accepted by the department, or what is the course of action from here?

MS BURKE: It is my understanding they do not have any of their

consultations done on any of those closures. It seems they have put the motions

to the floor, but they will have to do their consultation process before they

being it back to vote, before it comes into the Department of Education.

MS JONES: Is it normal practice for a board to make decisions like this

before consultation?

MS BURKE: It depends. Once they put a motion to the floor for a closure

they then have to engage in a consultation process. They can do consultation

prior to if they want as well, but once they put the motion to the floor they do

have to have a consultation before they vote on it. So, yes, it would be the

procedure they follow.

MS JONES: What I am asking is: Does the consultation process in essence

change the motion once it is made or is it just an exercise in practice then?

MS BURKE: It could, as in Swift Current. That was a motion to

reconfigure, and based on the consultation process and the vote what was put to

the floor was not necessarily what was passed.

MS JONES: Okay.

There was some funding in the Budget to share for new school construction.

Can you tell me what schools are going to be constructed out of that?

MS BURKE: We have already answered that. Answer it again?

CHAIR: It has being dealt with, Ms Jones.

MS JONES: Is that right? Do you have the response?

MR. BUTLER: It is my understanding (inaudible).

MS JONES: So that money may not even get spent this year?

MS BURKE: It would depend, I guess, on what comes forward as projects

that are recommended by boards. They do not all have their plans in right now.

MS JONES: When do boards usually finalize their plans for a current

budget year?

MR. HOLLETT: In terms of their operational budgets, they would have those

finalized, certainly their requests, in the fall of the proceeding year, and

they cannot finalized their budgets, of course, until they get their allocation

from us.

With respect to capital, this year is slightly different because last year in

the Budget we provided $250,000 for the boards to go and develop long-term

capital plans. They have gone ahead and done full capital plans for the

district. This year is a bit of an unusual year.

MS JONES: Have you guys saved any money in the last two years on

reconfiguration of schools in your department?

MR. HOLLETT: On reconfiguration of schools, we do the teacher allocations

based on total enrolments and there would have been some savings, although I do

not have that figure, with respect to the operating grant to schools and

certainly in utility costs when there was less square footage, less to heat,

less to light, et cetera. I do not have the figure in terms of what savings have

accrued because of school closures.

MS JONES: Can you get me the information in terms of how much would have

been saved through reconfiguration in the past two years?

MR. HOLLETT: Yes, we can attempt to put that together.

MR. HAYWARD: Last year, the department accumulated around $1 million in

savings from school closures. Through the special incentives initiatives, the

school boards retain that $1 million for the first three years to do equipment

upgrades or other kind of capital upgrades. After the third year, the money

accumulates in the school board allocation. It is not reduced, it is just

reallocated to cover utility costs, to cover employee costs and other

inflationary costs in the board before we come to government looking for more

money. I think the number is around $30 million since 1997 that has accumulated

to government. That has all been reinvested in the education system. There has

been no clawback of that money.

MS JONES: The reinvestment program you have had on the go since

2003-2004, I guess, or 2004-2005 it would have been, is a three-year program?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes. If a school had closed in 2002, the school board would

have had that savings to utilize for a one-time cost up until 2005. Then in

2005-2006, that money would go into school board allocation and be reallocated

to the other boards to deal with inflationary pressures.

MS JONES: Any board that gets to keep the savings from reconfiguration,

that does not come off their base budget for that year?

MR. HAYWARD: No.

MS BURKE: It is additional capital money that they can use.

MS JONES: Do any of the school boards in the Province run an annual

deficit now or do they have any accumulated debt?

MR. HAYWARD: The Auditor General's Report dealt with that issue last

year. There is one school board carrying an accumulated deficit and that is the

Labrador board. They have a deficit recovery plan and they are paying that out

over a number of years, Ms Jones.

MS JONES: What is their accumulated deficit now?

MR. HAYWARD: Around $1 million.

MS JONES: One million?

MR. HAYWARD: One million, and that is the only board that is in an

accumulated deficit account.

MS JONES: Did any of the boards run deficits this year?

MR. HAYWARD: No, they did not.

On a cash basis there are some accrual issues that the Province do not fund,

like the difference between accrued leave and severance from one year to the

other. We provide for, basically, cash expenses. The Auditor General makes

reference to that, that there is an accumulated liability that accrues because

teachers earn severance and earn other entitlements that do not get paid out

from one year to the other.

MS JONES: Yes, I understand that. Thank you.

Was there any extra money allocated to the Labrador School Board this year?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, in 2005-06, due to the unusual circumstances in

Labrador, there was $100,000 in additional funding allocated to the board to

deal with some issues that are not really funded by the formula. So, we are

working -

MS JONES: What about this year's Budget?

MR. HAYWARD: In this year's Budget, for school board operations there

is additional funding allocated for utilities and also to assess the staffing

levels in the school boards.

MS JONES: That is for all boards, though, is it?

MR. HAYWARD: It is for all boards.

MS JONES: Yes. What about for the Labrador board, in particular? Was

there any additional funding in the 2006 Budget?

MR. HAYWARD: No.

MS JONES: I am asking because I did sit through the budget presentation

of the school board to the Minister of Finance when they had the public

consultations. I did not bring the presentation with me, or the documentation,

but there were a number of issues that were raised, very legitimate issues, and

I think they probably are the same issues that would have caused them to

accumulate a deficit over the past number of years. I thought, with the extra

money being allocated by government now, that some of these issues would have

gotten addressed. Most of them were existing around the school system in the

Northern region of Labrador. It included a number of things, not just

maintenance and stuff on facilities, but other things as well that they felt

needed to be done or changed there. I am just asking, based on their

presentation to the Department of Finance and the minister, if any of those

things were addressed. I am understanding now that they were not.

MS BURKE: Well, if it is related to capital or renovations - and I am not

sure what you are talking about - there is money allocated there. As the school

boards come forward with their plans, if it is anything to do with the physical

structure, maintenance or renovations, it certainly (inaudible).

MS JONES: It had to do with their bottom line maintenance budget, the

amount they are allocated per board. For example, every time there is a school

broken into in one of the communities, they have to fly in people to do the

repairs to fix it. They have had to fly in furnace parts, they have had to fly

in plumbers, and they have had to do all this in the middle of the winter and it

has become very expensive. One of the issues that they raised was having their

maintenance budget for their board increase to a more adequate level to reflect

what their true costs were on an annual basis.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, that was one of the reasons that in 2005-2006 we

provided the $100,000 that I referred to earlier.

MS JONES: Yes, in last year's Budget.

MR. HAYWARD: We will be working with the board to determine their

requirements as we go through the budget process this year. There were some

general increases in allocations to the boards. We will work through that with

the board, but nothing specific.

MS JONES: Has the Labrador Board made any requests to do any work with

the Cartwright school at all? Does anybody know?

MR. HAYWARD: Every school board provides us, as we go through the budget

process, with a list of capital maintenance requires like roofs, windows, that

kind of thing. If you want to go to your next question while I check the list. I

will check the list as you are going to your next question and see if there is

anything there for Cartwright? Every school board identifies -

MS JONES: When you are checking you might want to also check and see if

there was any request to occupy the additional square footage for that board in

that school. This school does not have a gymnasium. There is a gymnasium in the

community and it was built with the understanding and an agreement from the

board at the time that they would enter into a joint use agreement. The same was

done in two other communities on the North Coast where there were joint use

agreements, for a number of years, existing in the department.

When the school was built in Cartwright, because of the construction, the

engineering or whatever happened, there were some defaults with the building.

The building had to be brought up to standard and money was invested to do that.

Still the school board did not take over that particular gymnasium. One of the

things, when it was talked about, was that instead of having a gym in the school

and a gym in the community this made the most sense, of course, but there would

have been a corridor built between the school and the gymnasium. That is why

today the gym is built only a few feet from the school, because that was the

whole purpose of it. The kids in that school still do not use this gymnasium.

They have never been able to use it as part of the school curriculum. There is

no proper physical education program in the school because they do not have a

gymnasium that they can use.

I am wondering what the board is doing about it. Are they making any

representation to the department at all to have this issue, I guess, fixed or

clarified or whatever the case may be?

MR. HOLLETT: We have had some discussions with the school board about the

community gym in Cartwright. There is a gymnasium/auditorium in the school today

which is used for most programs. Certain programs they would have some

difficulty doing there like floor hockey, for example, because there are gyproc

walls in the school gymnasium.

MS JONES: Have you been in the auditorium, I have to ask you, that is

there?

MR. HOLLETT: No, I have not.

MS JONES: It is a theatre in a room, it is not a gymnasium. It is full of

windows, it is gyproc walls. It is not designed to be a gymnasium, it is

designed to put off school plays and to have school luncheons or whatever you

want to do, sell raffle tickets or something. It is not a gymnasium.

MR. HOLLETT: The community gymnasium itself, there are some deficiencies

with that building now. We are told that there are some leaks in the building.

We would have to have an independent study done on the community gymnasium

before it could be assessed what the cost of bringing it up to standard would be

before we could entertain a formal proposal from the board, or enter into formal

discussions about the school board actually taking over that gymnasium for use

by the school. One of the other costs, of course, would be the construction of a

link between the school and the gymnasium, which we have estimated at about

$70,000.

MS JONES: I agree that there are some defaults with the gymnasium that is

there, and a lot of that is due to the fact that nobody is looking after it, it

is neglected. The town does not look after it, they do not have a budget. The

recreation committee does not look after it, they do not have a budget.

Actually, in the last two years the only reason that the heat stayed on in that

building is because I went out and got companies in the Province to donate fuel

to put in the tanks to keep the building going, and because the Minister of

Labrador Affairs gives us $2,000 every year to pay the light bill. That is the

only reason that the facility is even open. No one is responsible anymore for

the upkeep of it. That is really sad, because it is a brand new building and it

is in good shape. It has some defaults but nothing that cannot be fixed. There

is probably about $800,000 or more invested in this structure, and the children

in this community are going without a gymnasium and I think that it is

unacceptable.

I really feel that between the board and the Department of Education they

should seriously look at this issue and decide how it is going to be dealt with.

If the department and the school board are ready to go out and just condemn the

whole facility, well then that is your choice, but in the meantime you had

better have another plan because it is not going to be tolerated any longer.

These kids have waited long enough. In the first year that the gymnasium was

built it probably had more occupancy than any other facility in my district that

is being used for sports. As soon as the community fell on hard times, the tax

base was reduced, the plant nearly closed down, the money just wasn't in the

community to maintain it anymore, and the school board did not follow through

and there ended the bargain, as was agreed upon prior to the construction of it.

I want to ask today, you Minister and your officials, to contact the school

board and to start working with them to try and do something for these children

to ensure that they have a proper gymnasium.

MS BURKE: We have made contact with the school board actually and have

asked them what their intentions were. We are waiting to hear back as to if they

want to continue and have a study done. We have made that contact with them.

That was done probably back in late February or early March.

MS JONES: They haven't reported back to you yet with a plan?

MS BURKE: No, they haven't come back to indicate what their plan is.

MS JONES: Can we get back to the Labrador budget again, Rick?

MR. HAYWARD: Yes. I just looked at the request for the Labrador board.

They have two requests in there for the Henry Gordon Academy in the school

construction and maintenance Budget allocation. One of these is one of their top

priorities. We will be assessing those projects as we go through the year in

providing funding.

MS JONES: What is it they are looking for?

MR. HAYWARD: They are looking for roofing for Henry Gordon Academy and

wheelchair accessability.

MS JONES: The school in Black Tickle is a K to 12 school. Has the board

made any decisions around whether that will continue to operate as K to 12, or

if they are looking at changing that in the future?

MS BURKE: Would Black Tickle be under the Western board or the Labrador

board?

MS JONES: The Labrador board.

MR. HAYWARD: We are still waiting on the Labrador board's long-term

plan. There are no decisions on that particular school until we get the plan and

they go through their public consultation process.

MS JONES: When do they usually do that?

MR. HAYWARD: The funding was provided in 2005-2006 Budget for all the

boards to do their plans. The Labrador board is still working on theirs. The

three other boards on the Island are finished theirs; they are in different

phases of completion.

MS JONES: All the others are finished except that one?

MS BURKE: No, not all. The Western is not finished, nor is Eastern.

MS JONES: The arts program that you announced the other day: Is any of

that money going into the Labrador schools? The $25,000 arts program was

announced the other day. You made the statement in the House.

MS BURKE: The $25,000 for the Visiting Artist Program?

MS JONES: Yes.

MS BURKE: All school boards will have access to that funding.

MS JONES: How are they going to be selected, because obviously there is

not enough there for all the schools.

MR. HOLLETT: The plan there would be: Each of the boards would make

proposals to the department on how they would wish to spend that money.

MS JONES: They would just make a proposal to the department?

MR. HOLLETT: Yes, they would make a proposal based on a particular

program.

MS JONES: If you do not have an arts program in your school, are you

still eligible? I do not have any arts programs in the schools in my district.

MR. HOLLETT: Yes they would be, because last year, for example, I know we

had some. I do not recall who the people were, but we had some of the musical

arts people go up and do tours within some of the schools in Labrador, for

example. They went out on the Coast.

MS JONES: Was that program cut? I remember back a number of years ago

there used to be visiting artists going into school in my district all the time.

I was surprised when the announcement came about the program, because I always

thought it was there.

MS BURKE: That had been in place and had been cut in the mid-nineties. It

is reinstated.

MS JONES: It must have been there since then, because I remember only

four or five years ago Fergus O'Byrne and different people like that going

around my district in the schools.

MS BURKE: There are two other programs as well. There is the Arts Smarts

Program and the Cultural Connections program. So there are actually three

programs. It could have been one of those two as well.

MS JONES: They are all similar, are they?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS JONES: How come we do not have one program instead of three; just out

of curiosity?

MR. HOLLETT: Some of the programs are very targeted at specific, for

example, visitation by artists to schools. Some of them, including the arts and

culture strategy last year, were a direct investment in music teachers and in

musical equipment, et cetera, for schools. While they are all targeted within a

broad arts and cultural strategy, they, in many cases, would have slightly

different purposes.

MS JONES: How are the artists selected for that kind of a program? Do

they just volunteer?

MS BURKE: It would be with the boards and their coordinators. A lot of

what we are trying to get at there is introducing the students to their local

artists, because really there is so much talent in every part of Newfoundland

and Labrador. We have so many artists out there that the students should be able

to access people of interest to them as opposed to always the big names we all

know. Probably in Labrador and over in Bay St. George there are many artists who

are probably not known on a provincial level but certainly would have something

to share within the classrooms and with the students who would probably know

their work quite well.

MS JONES: Once a school applied and was selected for the program, then

the board would select who the artist was that came in. I am just trying to

figure out how it works?

MR. HOLLETT: It is not necessarily that rigid a process. In reality, what

happens between the curriculum and the program consultants within the Department

of Education, the program specialists at the school board and the individual

schools, they would have discussions about what types of programs or what types

of visitations would be most advantageous and they would develop a plan, really

on a consultative basis and a collaborative basis, over the course of the year.

That is the practical way that it works as opposed to the department and/or the

board sitting and waiting for a specific school to make a proposal, while that

might happen.

MS JONES: Does the program kick in immediately or in September?

MR. HOLLETT: The money is on a fiscal year basis. I would expect that the

bulk of it would commence in September. If a particular school had a good

project that they wanted to do and their was enough time before the end of the

school year to do it, we certainly would not exclude them from doing that.

MS JONES: The applications are online, I guess, that the schools have to

fill out?

MR. HOLLETT: I do not think there is a formal application form. I would

have to check on that.

MS JONES: You just write the department, do you?

MR. HOLLETT: You would have to talk to the board.

MS JONES: I am asking because I had a call on it yesterday and I did not

know the answer they needed.

What do you do, just write the department?

MR. HOLLETT: I think what should happen there is that if a school has an

idea, they should talk to the board and the curriculum people at the department

and determine the best way to -

MS JONES: So, it has to go through the board?

MR. HOLLETT: It should involve the board, yes.

MS JONES: Okay, I misunderstood. I thought you said earlier that the

department would make the decision on who got the projects or who got the

programs or whatever. They do not, so it is the board.

Back last year, in the middle of a by-election in Bishop's Falls, Minister,

you made a decision to overturn a decision of the board with regard to the

closure of the school there. Today we have a similar situation going on in Swift

Current. From questions today from my colleague, it does not seem like you are

as inclined to do the same in Swift Current. I would like to know how you

justify your actions that would overturn the board decision in Bishop's Falls,

but yet you are not prepared to do it for other areas where parents are

expressing concerns?

MS BURKE: Well, I will just clarify one thing: I wasn't the Minister of

Education at the time, so I would not have had any authority over the decision

at that time. I am certainly -

MS JONES: Same government, though, I think.

MS BURKE: I know, but I just wanted to correct that. It was said on the

record and I just wanted to make that correction.

Basically, I am listening to what the boards are saying. They are coming back

with some plans. Any plans for reconfigurations or school closures that do not

necessarily hinge on capital expenditures that have to be approved by the

Department of Education are certainly done at the full responsibility of the

board and their authority under the Schools Act. Any issues that come from the

board with regard to school closures or reconfigurations that are contingent

upon financial approval for the renovations or new schools, certainly would give

the Department of Education that ability, I guess, to overturn or veto if they

were not inclined to finance those projects.

At this point in time, I am certainly looking to the plans that come before

me with regard to renovations or that will incur capital costs. Otherwise the

board will probably be notifying us of decisions of reconfigurations or school

closures that are not dependent upon financing from the Department of Education.

MS JONES: As I understand it, with or without this new school going ahead

the children from Swift Current are going to be bused anyway to another location

and the school is going to be closed down.

MS BURKE: It is my understanding that the school from Swift Current will

stay status quo.

MS JONES: Excuse me for a minute. I am asking these questions for one of

my other colleagues who is not here, so I am trying to clarify some information.

I will just be a second.

CHAIR: While this consultation is on the go, just for the purpose of the

recorders downstairs, two other people from the minister's staff joined us at

about 7:30 or so: Jacqueline Howard, Director of Communications at the

Department of Education, and Heather MacLellan, Assistant Deputy Minister of the

Women's Policy Office.

think, was the school that was in question. There was another school and I

forget what the name of it was. Could you probably remind me, somebody?

MS BURKE: It would have been the school, probably, in Grand le Pierre or

Petit Forte.

MS JONES: Grand le Pierre, that is it.

MR. BUTLER: (Inaudible) going to Terrenceville. That is what she is

referring to.

MS BURKE: Petit Forte and Rushoon.

MS JONES: Yes. I was saying Swift Current, but my colleague reminded me

that one is staying the same as of the meeting last night. They are still

to Terrenceville even without any commitment of a new school at this stage. That

is my understanding?

MS BURKE: Yes. The board has put forward a motion but they have not

approached the department yet with the plan for a new school in Terrenceville.

Their plan to move the students to Terrenceville is not contingent on a new

school.

MS JONES: Yes. What my colleague, I guess, is asking is if you will

intervene to ensure that these children are not bused until there is a new

school.

MS BURKE: Well, I will work with the board with their plans, but there is

no official plan here. With or without the new school, the board has made their

decision last night to bus the students to Terrenceville.

MS JONES: I think the basis on which he is making the request is based on

the decision that government made with regard to Bishop's Falls during the

middle of the by-election, when they honoured their request to parents to not

close that school. I think that my colleague, the Member for Bellevue, is very

concerned about this issue and certainly would like to see intervention on

behalf of the government, as well, for these particular parents and children, to

ensure they do not have to be bussed until at least they know what the decision

of the board is going to be around the new school in Terrenceville, whether it

happens or whether it does not happen.

MS BURKE: Well, I anticipate that once the Board puts their plan to the

Department of Education for a new school in Terrenceville, that we will be

certainly looking at that on a priority basis, to have a look at their plan and

be able to make some decisions on that.

MS JONES: You guys announced in the Budget that you were going to

eliminate school fees, obviously an initiative that we announced back in 2003

and was cancelled by your government right after you came into power. I

understand that you did think it was a good idea and agreed to bring it back in

the Budget this year. Can you just confirm for me that this will mean that come

September, when children are going to school, that there will be no cost at all

to the parents in terms of school supplies or anything like that, that they will

have to purchase from the schools?

MS BURKE: Parents will still provide the school supplies as they would

ordinarily provide, that are not bought from the school, whether that is, say, a

pencil case, a knapsack, exercise books and whatever. What we will cover in this

particular program will be school materials that they would normally buy from

the school or any costs in relation to curriculum. If you are doing a math

program and have to buy the math book or science book and have to buy a

consumable workbook, that would be covered.

MS JONES: Throughout the school year there are always different fees and

children have to bring money to school for different programs they are involved

in. Does that mean those fees are eliminated as well?

MS BURKE: It would depend. If the school was going to have a pizza, they

can still continue to have a pizza day and raise their money. If they want to do

a particular field trip that is not necessarily a required part of the

curriculum - over our way sometimes they may go swimming or skating or something

- they could still raise money for that. If there is a project the school would

like to do, they can continue to raise money to pay for those particular events.

MS JONES: You guys also announced money, $125,000, for a liaison position

to work between the school boards and the school councils, and to support, I

guess, the volunteers or the parents or whoever provides their time to the

schools and so on. Is this one position or two? Where are they based?

MS BURKE: This would be one position. I am not sure where it is going to

be based yet, but I am pretty sure it will not be based in St. John's. That

will be a position. When we consulted with the Federation of School Councils,

when we were preparing for the Budget, there was a lot of concern that a lot of

times they did not understand their roles or they felt they had different roles,

they did not know their mandate, and they just wanted to be able to have some

understanding of how they should perform and what type of training they need in

order to make sure that they are being effective. They were a legislative body

that was in existence, and quite frankly I feel they have a very important role

to play, because they are made up of local players at any school. They are

usually the parents and some of the administration and some of the teachers.

They have a very valuable role to play in the decision-making of any school. It

is just unfortunate that they are out there and they felt, at some points, they

did not understand their role. If we are going to have them, and I think we need

them, we need to help validate that role and put some understanding and some

training around it. Quite frankly, if they are out there and they are not

working, we would have to let them go, but I think they have a very valuable

role to play and I would really like to help bolster them over this year.

MS JONES: Are they going to travel the whole Province, every school,

every school council, every board?

MS BURKE: There is no one hired yet, so there is no plan. I do not know

how they are going to do it. They may be able to have workshops and deal with a

number of schools. They may visit quite a number of schools. They may work with

the boards. There has been no determination on that. I certainly think they

would have access to technology if there is difficulty trying to have a travel

budget to hit all 294 schools. The person who is going to take on that role will

certainly have to be creative, but will have the mandate to work with, I guess,

whatever schools are identified that need support.

MS JONES: I think it is a good concept. I just do not think $125,000 is

going to do the job. I think that it gets the government some fanfare, in terms

of providing a position like that, but at $125,000 I can tell you if they get to

Labrador once a year, good luck to them. The budget is not there to deal with

almost 300 schools in the Province and be able to even provide a visit once a

year. I think it is inadequately funded, and if you were serious about doing

this it would be adequately funded, especially for the transportation piece of

it, to allow whoever the individual is to do their work properly. I guess that

is a comment more than a question.

The other issue I want to raise is with regard to the teachers who were

suspended this year for basically outlining some concerns they had with their

work, with their job. That was the Eastern - is it called the Eastern, the St.

John's region school board? I think it is the Eastern School Board - is it? -

the St. John's region, in which the CEO of the board decided to suspended two

teachers for speaking out basically against the government. I would like to ask

you, first of all, minister, if you think that is an appropriate action.

MS BURKE: I would think that a CEO of any board, whether it is a school

board or a health board, would certainly have to make their calls on how they

deal with the staff. I do think teachers need a forum to be able to address some

of their concerns. I do not want to specifically speak to that. I was not

personally involved in it. I did not sanction it nor did I ask it to be

cancelled. It was certainly a decision of the CEO of the board. I really do not

feel comfortable in addressing and trying to answer for his actions in that

regard.

MS JONES: You may not have been the minister, but it happened within your

government, in the highest levels of your government. If you remember, the

Premier even got engaged in it himself in terms of feeding comments to the

media. I guess I am asking you a question in terms of your position as minister.

Do you think it is appropriate action for a CEO of a school board to suspend

teachers for speaking out against injustices that they find in the system?

MS BURKE: I would think that a CEO of a board would certainly have to use

their discretion to be able to deal with human resource matters. I cannot really

make a broad blanket statement as to that. It would cover all matters. It would

certainly be dependent on the individual circumstances.

MS JONES: I agree they have to make their own decisions, but I guess I am

asking do you think it was appropriate action. You are the minister. Do you

think it was appropriate action?

MS BURKE: I am not going to, by any way, pass comment on the performance

on any of the CEOs. They certainly have a job to do. They have to work with

their board and they have to answer to their board. I do not feel that I need to

make a comment on the working of the CEOs.

MS JONES: Was the CEO reprimanded in any way for the action that he took?

MS BURKE: He would be working for the board and the board certainly would

- that would be in their purview if they were going to have any sanctions. Not

that I am aware of, but in saying that I do not know how they would have dealt

with that as a personnel issue.

MS JONES: Is that a hire by government?

MS BURKE: The CEOs work for the board.

MS JONES: Government appoints the boards, the boards hire the CEOs. Is

that my understanding?

MS BURKE: Yes.

MS JONES: So government has no authority to hire or fire a CEO of a

school board in this Province?

MS BURKE: That is correct.

MS JONES: Does it work the same way with health boards?

MS BURKE: I do not know. I cannot answer for Health and Community

Services. I can say yes, but I am not sure. I would not be able to specifically

answer that for them.

MS JONES: If a CEO today goes out there and decides that they want to

continue to suspend teachers in our Province for speaking their minds and having

freedom of speech, government has no control, no autonomy at all, to suspend

this person, to punish them, to fire them or whatever the case may be; none.

That what you are telling me? Absolutely none!

MS BURKE: The authority for the staff would rest with the school board

and it would their legitimate authority under the Schools Act.

MS JONES: Even if there is a misappropriation of funds, anything like

that, there are no grounds under which government can intervene?

MR. HOLLETT: It would be our expectation that the board, as the employer,

would act as necessary depending on what the particular situation was, but the

board under the Schools Act has the full authority. The director and all of the

staff within the school board are employees of the board. The board is the legal

employer not the Department of Education.

MS JONES: I am just making sure I have this clear. The Department of

Education and the government have absolutely no control over what a CEO does in

this Province; none. They can misappropriate funds, they can fire teachers for

no reason, they can suspend them for having freedom of speech, they can do

whatever they want, and government has absolutely no control to do anything

about it. That is what you are telling me.

MS BURKE: This is where I would go as minister. If we were passing over

funds to a board and the staff were corrupt, and the board supervising them or

the board making the decisions was in a conspiracy to misappropriate the funds

and it was not going to the schools or the students, I think we could probably

suspend the funding for a police investigation or something like that. I do not

think we would hand funds over if we thought they were taking them and going on

vacation, misappropriating the funds. I guess we would call in the police. We

would not hand over taxpayers' dollars for crime or fraud.

MR. HOLLETT: The Schools Act itself lays out what the responsibilities

and expectations of a school board director are. In any sense, they would have

the same accountability to their employer that a Deputy Minister has within

government. They are responsible for enforcing the Financial Administration Act,

et cetera, within the school board. Again, the legal employer of record is the

school board itself.

MS JONES: I am really confused here. I do not know the Schools Act. If I

did I would not have to sit here and ask questions probably, but I do not know

it. I am just trying to make sure that I am clear in what I am saying, that a

CEO of a school board in this Province can basically do just whatever they

please and government has no autonomy to deal with them in any way, shape or

form. They have to be dealt with only by a volunteer board. That is what I

understand.

MS BURKE: In fairness, the CEO does not report - I do not supervise or

the Deputy does not supervise their day-to-day - if there is an issue in the

office today over something, he came in late this morning, we would not know

that. We do not have a day-to-day supervisory capacity over the CEO.

MS JONES: I would not expect you to. You probably do not have that over

half the people in your department. I am just wondering what the repercussions

are if a CEO of a school board is involved in any of the activities that I have

just said. I understand right now that the only recourse is that they are dealt

with by a volunteer board of directors. That is my understanding. I am just

trying to make sure I am getting this right. I do not want to be saying

something that is not correct.

MR. HAYWARD: The Eastern School Board is a legal entity of the Province

of Newfoundland and Labrador. The Board of Directors manages the affairs of the

Eastern School Board and the Director of Education for the Eastern School Board

reports to the Board of Directors of the Eastern School Board, which is a legal

entity of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. There is no direct

reporting relationship between the director and the minister. The

employer-employee relationship is between the Director and the Board of

Directors.

MS JONES: So I am right in what I am saying. Okay.

Just take the Eastern School Board, for example: How much money do they

administer on an annual basis?

MR. HAYWARD: About $300 million.

MS JONES: Does the Board of Directors have any training or any programs

designed for them when they become elected or part of this volunteer board?

Obviously, they have a lot of responsibility here and they have complete

autonomy over a CEO who is managing, in this case, $300 million a year? Do they

have any kind of training as directors, in terms of what their responsibilities

are, how they carry out those responsibilities and so on?

MR. HOLLETT: Yes, there is. There is an orientation session that is

provided to all new trustees after every school board election. That would go

through all their responsibilities under the Schools Act, under the Financial

Administration Act, et cetera, what it is their role is. That is an orientation

that would be carried out jointly by the Department of Education and the

executive staff of the school board.

MS JONES: Can I have the orientation program that you use? What is it,

three days, a week, two week, six months?

MR. HOLLETT: What they will be provided with is a package of information

which would lay out all of their responsibilities, everything from copies of the

Schools Act right down to the bylaws and the organizational structure of the

school board itself. As well, there would be at least one, if not two, full

meetings of the board which may take place. Often boards will do a weekend

retreat with new boards and take a full Saturday, for example, and Sunday to go

through all those issues with the board. Again, while the department

participates in those sessions, the exact timing and the exact length of those

sessions is determined by the board itself. In practice, they usually have a

weekend retreat very shortly after they are set up and go through all of those

issues.

MS JONES: You meet them, you give them a package of information, and then

there is a sit down with the board to go through the package, is it or what?

MR. HOLLETT: Yes, they would receive a series of presentations.

OFFICIAL: A workshop.

MR. HOLLETT: Yes, a workshop type of thing on the Transparency and

Accountability Act and the Schools Act, a fairly lengthy series of presentations

and an extensive package of information.

MS JONES: Can I get a copy of the package that you use for your

orientation?

MR. HOLLETT: That should not be a problem.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes, we will get a copy of that from the school board for

you.

MS JONES: Does every school board use the same one?

MR. HAYWARD: Not necessarily.

MS JONES: Why is that?

MR. HAYWARD: Just individualized -

MS JONES: Do they need different skills to run a different kind of board?

MR. HAYWARD: No, just an individualized package of materials that they

use as opposed to the content.

MR. HOLLETT: The by-laws of each board could be somewhat different. Some

of the presentations would be - I am sure they would talk about how that

particular school district is organized with families and schools, the

individual schools, and what the key issues are within that board. Some of the

materials that we would provide to the boards for those orientations would be

common. I mean, it would be presentations on the Transparency and Accountability

Act, a copy of the Schools Act, et cetera.

MS JONES: Getting back to the issue again about the teachers who were

suspended: Has the department done anything in terms of any kind of meetings or

public sessions with the teachers to kind of - how shall I put this? - try and

let them know that it is alright to express your frustrations that you have

within your job? Everybody has them. They are no different than I am as a

politician or you are as a deputy minister or an ADM. Has there been anything

done, because I think it sent a terrible message, in fact, in this Province when

these teachers were suspended for basically outlining concerns that they had? I

am wondering if there was anything done afterwards to try and combat some of

this or to let teachers know they are in a profession where they are going to

have stresses and that they are able to express themselves without being

penalized by the CEO of the board?

MS BURKE: The Department of Education did not take any specific action

after that to go out and have any type of public forum with the teachers to

explain what avenues they do have available to express their concerns.

MS JONES: Do you know if the board took any action?

MS BURKE: No. That is, no I do not know, as opposed to, no they did not

take any action.

MS JONES: You have no authority over the CEO, yet you have the authority

to override the decisions of the board.

MS BURKE: We have the authority, as the Department of Education, to

provide funding for decisions of the board. If the board makes a decision, for

instance, that they are going to move - say a school in Mount Pearl is going

from a K to 3 to a K to 4 and the school that would have been a 4 to 8 is going

to a 5 to 8, and if they can make that move without any financial resources from

the Department of Education they have the authority to do it. If a decision

similar to that meant they had to build new classrooms and they needed money for

capital they would have to come to the Department of Education for funding in

order to facilitate that. In essence then, when we approve the funding or do not

approve the funding, we have, I guess, some influence over that decision at that

time. If it does not include funding from the Department of Education, under the

Schools Act they have the authority to make their decisions.

MS JONES: Does Bishop's Falls include funding?

MS BURKE: It would have had it gone through a motion - originally the

situation there was there was a primary-elementary school in the centre of town

and on the east end of town. In addition to that there was another school in the

centre of town that was K to 8, I guess, and then there was the high school. The

K to 8 in the centre of town closed and moved into Leo Burke Academy. Leo Burke

Academy was K to 8 and fed into two high schools in Grand Falls, which was 9, 10

and 11 at the time but became up to Grade 12 after that. Then, at a certain

point the other school was built on Grenfell Heights, which would have been

Bursey, which was also K to11 or K to12 at that time, which was a regional

school. The Leo Burke Academy went from K to 8 to 9 to 10 to 11 to 12 in

incremental steps. At the same time the high school remained 7 to 12.

The schools in the center of town, one had originally closed to go into Leo

Burke and then the other one in the center of town closed, and the one in the

East End of town closed and that fed into Helen Tulk. Then the high school

closed and fit into Leo Burke which was then K to 12. That became a 7 to 12 and

the other school became K to 6. In the meantime, the other school, the high

school that closed that was on Grenfell Heights, they opened another school

which took the overflow. So the schools actually went from K to 6, 7 to 8 and 9

to 12.

There are still 500 students in the system down there. What in essence would

happen is that the school that came back into the center of town that took the

overflow, which replaced the school on Grenfell Heights, is now going to be the

high school for Grand Falls. That took 7 and 8, and in order to be able to

accommodate those students in any one building in Bishops Falls would mean a

capital expenditure on Helen Tulk, which is the K to 6 school now. In essence,

and to back that up in order to take Leo Burke from K to 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 and

then from 9 to 12, it had also had significant renovations done in recent years

as well.

MS JONES: So you figured the board really made a wrong decision.

MS BURKE: Well, in fairness to that whole community, it went full circle.

For a number of parents there now who went through the system, they would have

gone through a system of where they went from K to 8 in one school and then fed

into a high school in Grand Falls. That cycle then would have went from a low

school into a high school in another town into K to 12 in the one building, from

K to 12 into the one building out from K to 12 based over three schools in the

community, and then it would have went full circle right back around to the

original configuration, which would have been K to 8 with a high school feeding

into another community. They actually would have gone full circle in the three

different configurations in the community.

MS JONES: I understand that, because we raised it a number of time before

government intervened. It is obvious the board made a wrong decision. Are you

concerned that this board is still making decisions on configuration of schools,

busing children, things like this? Is this board being monitored more closely

now for decisions they are making?

MS BURKE: You mean the Central Board or the Eastern Board.

MS JONES: The Central.

MS BURKE: All boards, I guess, are being looked at when they come into us

for funding as to whether or not their decisions make sense. There is only going

to be a certain degree in the Province of where logistically people can travel.

MS JONES: I just have another question, then I am going to turn it over

to my colleague there. I guess that goes back to the Eastern School Board

Consultants' Report, that one day, I think, Minister, I left the House and you

were going to shred the document. Then another day you were going to do some of

the things that were in the document. I guess I am just wondering where the

document is now and what is happening with it.

MS BURKE: To tell you the truth, I frankly do not care where the document

is. What I said that day about shredding it, and what I continue to say today,

was I find it very distasteful for a lot of people when you throw out a report

that affects many people, it affects communities, it affects lives, children and

parents, and it is thrown out with sweeping changes that are the brainchild of

one person, and it is done prior to consultation.

I may not like every report that the school board puts out and some of the

decisions that they make, but if they have legitimate authority to do it they

have that authority. I am certainly far more comfortable with a report that is

done once they hear from the stakeholders. There was no stakeholder consultation

in that report. It was put out, it presented sweeping changes, and I just felt

it created a lot of anxiety. I would rather - and this is my own personal

opinion. The board had their full jurisdiction to decide how they wanted a

consultants' report done and who was going to do it and how they were going to

release it. Personally, it is not the way that I would have liked to have seen a

report done. It was not my decision. I think it created excessive anxiety and it

was thrown out. It was the brainchild of one person as opposed to going out,

meeting with the school councils, meeting with the communities, hearing their

input and from that doing a plan that they would consult on. That was how I felt

about it then and that is how I feel about it today.

MS JONES: Who was the author of the report?

MS BURKE: Harold Press, PRA Consultants.

MS JONES: He was hired by whom?

MS BURKE: The Eastern School Board.

MS JONES: Was the report approved by the board before it came to you as

the minister?

MS BURKE: No. It was passed at a board meeting. It was tabled at a board

meeting. Then in essence, I guess, it became the property of the board and then

shared with the Department of Education.

MS JONES: Again, this is the same CEO and the same board which government

has no control over, apparently. Now they have a consultants' document that,

from your own opinion, does not necessarily meet with your approval. What

happens to a document like this now?

MS BURKE: The process was started by the previous CEO of the Eastern

Board as opposed to the present CEO of the Eastern Board, and frankly it is the

property of the school board so they can do what they want with the report.

MS JONES: Is that the same report they are holding consultations on now?

MS BURKE: No. What they did, as a board, they took that report, they did

the first round of consultations, and then they went back to a meeting on -

March 10 or 3 out your way?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS BURKE: Yes. They had gotten that first report, did the consultations,

and then they developed what they thought were plans that they may be able to

proceed with. Based on that second report that they tabled in early March, they

did the second round of consultations because that second report put motions to

the floor, then they consulted on them. They voted on some last night. There

will be other phases done with regard to possible closures or configurations

throughout the entire district. They have a part of it done now. What they just

voted on, what they consulted on in recent weeks, was the plan that they had put

together and tabled in March. That came from the original consultant's report,

then consultation, then I guess they met as a board, did a plan, put that to the

floor in a motion, did further consultation and voted on some of it last night.

MS JONES: How much of the $300 million budget of the school board got

paid out to Harold Press for a report that had no consultation in it, was very

controversial, and in your words you wanted to shred?

MS BURKE: Thirty-seven thousand dollars.

MS JONES: Well, I am going to turn it back to our critic now. I am sure

he has lots of questions for you.

MR. BUTLER: I guess, while we are on the same vein, Madam Minister, with

regard to - really what you are saying is the Department of Education knew

nothing that was happening or the possibilities coming down in this consultant's

report?

MS BURKE: That first independent report?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, the first independent report.

MS BURKE: Absolutely not. I mean, whoever Harold Press is - my

understanding is he was the previous deputy minister - I have never spoken to

the man.

MR. BUTLER: I know you were not there, but why I ask that question - the

former Minister of Education who lives in the next district to where I live, I

guess some of the students from his district go to the same school that I am

going to reference now, Coley's Point Primary. They contacted me to try and

arrange a meeting with the Minister of Education where he was next door and so

on, and someone from the board and different associations at the school. The

school is a wooden structure which is probably forty or forty-five years old. At

the time, he responded back to me saying that it was better to wait until the

new boards were put in place. That was prior to the last election for the

trustees or whatever they are called. He said it is better to wait because there

is good news coming.

After hearing this here tonight, how would a minister know if there is good

news coming if there is nothing that comes through the department or you do not

know what is happening in any given area until the board gets their work done

like they are doing now and come in? Do you know what I am saying?

MS BURKE: Yes and even in saying that, in fairness had I even known some

of the recommendations I would not know if it was good news or bad news. I would

have to know the dynamics of the community and what they want, so I would not

even be able to comment. Even if they had shared the report I would look at some

of it and I would not know how the community is even going to react to it.

MR. BUTLER: Really, when you said you would shred the report that really

upset me to a certain point, because the school I am referencing now, the

consultants said they needed a new school, they are going to build a new school,

so I would not want to see that shredded. Then I took it that the former

minister must have known something because he is after telling me that there is

good news coming. I figured he must have known what was in the consultant's

report. Maybe I am just -

MS BURKE: The consultant's report had not been tabled with the trustees

and it had not been delivered to the minister. In fairness to all of that, maybe

the consultant was talking to the principal who talked to the minister because

he is in the district. That is possible. He could have made a phone call, but I

cannot answer for that, I do not know.

In fairness to that too, when I said shredded I did not mean shred all of the

recommendations. I still stand by the fact I did not like the process that led

to that report.

MR. BUTLER: I agree with you too.

The other thing I want to mention - and you noted about the consultation that

is taking place now which is correct. We went, and whoever wanted to go gave a

ten-minute presentation to the boards. Then, when they came back - I was at

Amalgamated Academy when the results came back and what the boards were

recommending and notices of motion, I think they were called. I do not know if I

can use anybody's name here or not, but Mr. Peach, I do not know his title

now, Milton Peach - I just forget his title.

MS BURKE: The Chair of the board.

MR. BUTLER: The Chair of the board, yes.

He stated, before they came down with their notices of motion, that what they

were presenting back to the people that night was what came from the

consultations where everybody went and made their presentations. There was not

one thing in it that was brought forward that night - my district I am

referencing now - that came out of the ten-minute consultations that the people

made there. Everything was totally different. Like Coley's Point school,

everyone thought it was wonderful and they fought for a new school, that was

changed; they are going to keep it opened with no renovations. St. Peter's,

they wanted to stay K to 9, and the other ones wanted to stay K to 9, but that

was totally changed around. There was really nothing in it to say that the

report came from those people.

My next question is in reference to that. I heard from different people who

are in that profession and they are saying it is not a good idea, and I do not

know, you people over there know more about this than I do, to take 7s, 8s and

9s - because with the system that is out there now most of them are K to 9, some

of them maybe 5 to 9 and what have you, like amalgamated, but to mix up the 7s,

8s and 9s, to move them around from one school to the other, they say it is not

in line with the curriculum and the system that is in place. Now, I do not know.

Then I hear of other areas where it may be from K to 7 and someone else is

from K to 8. Unless the full system is going to change - now maybe it is wrong

what they are telling me. Is that correct, by taking the 7s, 8s and 9s out of

the one school, it is more or less tampering with the system? For instance, a

high school, 10 to 12, they are all in the one group there, 7s, 8s and 9s

together. I do not know. Maybe that is incorrect. That is what I am wondering.

MR. HOLLETT: Typically we tend to think of schools in three blocks, K to

6, 7 to 9 and then high school is 10 to 12. That is typically because in some of

the larger centers and in other places where enrolments are large, you are able

to divide them up that way and come to a certain size of school. In a lot of

communities throughout this Province you will see different configurations, K to

9, K to 12, K to 4. There is really a whole host of different configurations.

Typically some people talk about primary and elementary schools, junior high

schools and then high schools, but that model does not hold on all cases. It

depends on the size of the school facility and it depends on the overall

enrolments in a particular area.

MR. BUTLER: One of the other points they brought back with their report -

and it is gone back to the people again now for another meeting coming up. I

will just use Holy Redeemer in Spaniard's Bay, a K to 9, and St. Peter's in

Upper Island Cove, a K to 9. To be honest with you, one building is older than

the other, definitely a big difference here, but with regard to what is

happening and is offered in either one of the two schools, I do not see any

major difference. They are taking the 9s from both schools going to Ascension

Collegiate, the high school, but they are taking the 7s and 8s from Upper Island

Cove and putting them up in Spaniard's Bay.

I ask the question: Why would you do that? Why can't they all stay K to 8?

They said: We are moving them because they will get a better education. I said:

Is it because the teachers who you have in Upper Island Cove or, you know...?

MS BURKE: I will give a general comment without specifically speaking to

those schools. If you have a group of Grade 8s and 9s, there are a number of

core courses they are going to do, but if you have a higher enrollment, you can

certainly have other courses available, whether it is art courses or music

courses or whatever. If you have more students, you are going to have access to

more resources. That is probably some of the thinking behind that, because the K

to 6 curriculum is pretty standard without choices really. I think in Grade 6

they probably have a choice between band or art, but once you get beyond, into

Grade 7 and 8, they can start making some more decisions. You would need the

base of students because you are not going to have, say, a spinoff of music in a

school or a band with two or three students who are interested in it. You would

need, I guess, a group of a larger number to be able to expand the courses to

give them choices. If they do not pick up some of these courses in those grades,

if they do not pick up, say, band when they get an opportunity in Grade 7 or 8,

when they are hitting high school, they do not have that option because the kids

in Grade 10, by that point, have probably had two or three years in band.

I am not saying that is the exact problem, what you are talking about there,

but I know that, I guess, from being a parent in the system as well, that

sometimes when you have a larger number of children in a certain grade you can

offer choices. Like, you could bring in the intensive core French in Grade 6 if

you had significant enrollment that you could justify that program, and the

music and the art programs would be similar.

MR. BUTLER: The next question I have to ask I asked before when we met

with Human Resources, Labour and Employment, because that minister was the lead

in the, I think, five or six or six or seven departments that are looking at

poverty in the Province. I wasn't being sarcastic or anything when I asked him

for a definition of poverty, because I have asked so many different people and

nobody can seem to put the proper face on it for me. I appreciate where you are

coming from, you are trying to eliminate it, but if someone cannot define it for

me, I am wondering what you are trying to eliminate, or can you eliminate it if

you do not know what it is? I am not making fun of the other minister, but they

said it is very difficult to define it or they could not define it. I am just

wondering how you can define that for me.

MS BURKE: Do you want my definition?

MR. BUTLER: Definitely..

MS BURKE: If we are going to define poverty as a measure with a

measurable outcome, I think we would look at the LICOs, the Low Income Cut Off,

because that would give us the baseline statistical data. If we take away every

other definition of poverty that is what we are going to measure at the end of

ten years. It is going to tell us how many people are living in poverty. That

will do the snapshot in time. It will do a sample within the population and that

will give us our statistical number. We can only take statistics for what they

are and deal with it, but we would measure it and the definition would be

through the LICOs. There are all kinds of different measures. We can get into

the market basket versus LICOs or whatever. I think, as a Province, we will use

LICOs as our cut off.

That is the standard measurable definition of poverty. What I really see

poverty as is, I look at poverty as a state or a situation that takes away one's

opportunity to fully participate in their community. That means you do not have

the financial resources to become part of the community, and that would mean

being able to provide for yourself, whether it is proper nutrition, proper

drugs, or whether it would be social inclusion, being able to participate in

community events. I think social inclusion is certainly one of the major aspects

of poverty, and certainly - and I do not want to get into HRLE's budget - why

there is money put towards the Jump Start Program in Newfoundland and Labrador.

Poverty affects different areas of your life and it certainly looks at your

health outcomes as well. That looks into being able to look at preventive

measures which means having an active healthy lifestyle where you can join

organized sports or be able to have equipment to do something even on an

individual basis, to be able to eat healthy, to be able to participate in your

community.

I will put it now to what I see as an educational level with regards to

poverty. In the document that was put together after the consultations were done

across the Province with regards to poverty, either on page ten, eleven, or

thirteen, I cannot remember what actual page it was, but about three-quarters

down the page there is a sentence that gave the perspective of people who worked

in education and what poverty meant to them. It is a very compelling sentence

when you read it. It is one that when you read it really sets you back and it

really takes away these measurable

definitions of poverty and tells you really

what it is. It talks about how young students start school. You can just picture

the kids going off to kindergarten and Grade I. I do not care who they are or

how poor their family is, when they start that first day of school there is

something new. It is new pencils, new shoes, a new book bag, or they have their

hair washed or their best clothes put on, but they go in that school and most

kids you see going in through the school doors are shining that morning. They

are all excited and they are all happy. They go in and they are all equal. They

all have the new teacher, they are all getting the new textbooks, novels or

whatever they are handing out, they are all there and they are all on that one

level and they are getting lots of information.

Then they get this one slip that is going to go home and going to tell them

what they have to bring back, whether it is $40 or whether it is $60. When they

go home and that note comes out of the book bag, that is when poverty hits. That

is when the mother or father, or both parents, say: I cannot afford this. I do

not know why you are bringing it home. I can't believe they are asking for

this money. Where are we going to get this money? If I get this money for that,

we are not going to have groceries next week. I am not going to be able to pay

the bills. All of a sudden, the next morning when they go in that classroom they

are marginalized and they know it and it breaks their spirit. I think that is

one of the aspects of poverty we really have to overcome as a Province, is that

our children's spirits are not broken and they are able to participate in the

extracurricular activities, whether it is the organized sports or activities in

town.

We are hoping to accomplish a lot of that through the JumpStart Program or be

able to participate in that classroom without feeling marginalized or without

feeling different or without feeling they do not have the financial resources to

fully participate in what they are doing. I think that is one of the goals that

we have to get to, if we are really going to address poverty. Our young people

need to grow up, they need to be able to have self-confidence and self-esteem to

move into the community. If they go year after year on the understanding that

they cannot compete on a financial basis and that they are marginalized, we are

not going to be able to build the capacity that this Province needs.

MR. BUTLER: I am glad to hear you say that, because really that is the

way I was looking at it. It comes down to a bottom line with the almighty dollar

to a certain degree. When you talk to some people they say: Well, it is a

housing issue, it is education. I know a lot of people with a good education and

who have a half-decent house, but had to say the same thing to their children

like you just mentioned there. It really comes down to that almighty dollar, and

until we get up to that level - to me, that is what it is. I know all the other

factors and all the other departments play a

part in this, but it really comes

down to all of it working together so that person has more in the pocket to be

able to do things. That is way I look at it.

MS BURKE: Absolutely! It is money in the pocket, because if you are not

spending it in other areas, yes you have more disposable income.

It is just like being able to enroll your child in swimming lessons or

participating in soccer. One thing we have really done of importance as a

government - I am getting sidetracked here again now because I am floating back

to HRLE and I am no longer the minister over there - I think that one of the

most important initiatives we have ever done is to partner with the JumpStart

Program with the Canadian Tire Foundation for Families. I think that has opened

the doors for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians right across this Province to

participate in activities. They do not have to go through a means test, and they

do not have to bring in T4s from their parents for last year or their income tax

receipts or what money they are getting. It is done on a very low key community

basis that provides access to every child who applies.

MR. BUTLER: What will be the cost to whether - I think it is rented, I do

not know, you can answer that for me for sure. The Eastern Board office here in

St. John's, what would it cost on a monthly or a yearly basis for that

facility?

MS BURKE: The board office in Atlantic Place you mean?

MR. BUTLER: Atlantic Place, yes.

MR. HAYWARD: I believe it is around $270,000 a year, Mr. Butler. If it is

any different I will let you know, but that is the number that I recall.

MR. BUTLER: What plans - I guess this goes back to the board again, but I

guess in a roundabout circle back to the department - does the Department of

Education or the board have, that you may be aware of, for the building that

they have in Spaniard's Bay that used to be the board office?

MS BURKE: Do they still own the board office?

MR. HAYWARD: They still own the board office. They still have some of

their program people traveling back and forth from that office. Right now, to

the best of my knowledge, they have no intent to close it.

MR. BUTLER: We hear some rumours that it may be going up for sale. You

are not aware of that, by the way? You would know that, wouldn't you?

MR. HAYWARD: They have not indicated that to us. We have no knowledge

that they have a plan to sell it. They could without our approval.

MR. BUTLER: They could without your approval?

MS BURKE: They do not need our approval.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Why I ask that question, I attended a meeting last evening with the Bay

Roberts library board. I understand where they are coming from, because I think

it is $60,000 or $58,000 a year that is paid for rent for the library in Bay

Roberts. There is a fairly large movement on the go out there trying to save

their library to the town, because it is centrally located, the schools are in

that area and so on. I think they are planning on going to that building - it is

being looked at, I should say, they are not planning on going there because they

have to go first and see the structure of the building to see if it can carry

off as a library or what have you. That is why I was wondering, because I heard

this on the outside that that is a possibility. Then I said, why would they move

the library there. I know it is fine to go there if it is free rent. To my

understanding that is why they are going there, they are being offered free rent

by the board. Can you confirm that for me?

MS BURKE: That would be an agreement between the school board and the

libraries board.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, but you people would not know if that offer was made or

not?

MR. HAYWARD: No. I guess, with a little nudging, we have been trying to

work with the Public Libraries Board that if there are alternative facilities in

that area that could be utilized, to utilize existing government facilities

without paying rent and use that money for something else. The Public Libraries

Board and the Eastern School Board are having discussions, and the issue of rent

is under negotiation. It seems like they are going to give them a favourable

rate, because in effect the government pays most of the costs of that building

anyway because it is part of the school board operating grant, so it would not

be right for the school board to charge public libraries rent.

MR. BUTLER: My understanding is they are offering them free rent.

MR. HAYWARD: Yes.

MS BURKE: (Inaudible).

MR. HAYWARD: Because the Department of Education provides funding to the

school board, pays the heat and light, utilities and snow clearing for that

building.

MR. BUTLER: I have had several cases over, I suppose, the last couple of

years, and not altogether from my area, calls from different districts with

regard to when, I guess, a situation should arise for a student who would need

special assistance or whatever program, with various disabilities and so on. I

know there is a program. I just forget the name of it name now, Criteria C. They

have to meet Criteria C, is it, from one of the programs? Anyway, really what I

am trying to say is, the parents see that the child needs this program. The

principals of the schools, they support it, the regional office supports it, and

all of a sudden it comes to the Eastern Board and then through the Department of

Education and it seems to get rejected. I know there is criteria to follow, but

if you see the parent and the school and the regional office and medical

documentation to support something, you know, I do not see why it is not looked

at in a different light rather than just say to that parent, I am sorry, you do

not meet the criteria, and they go back through the system again and it still

does not happen.

I was wondering if anyone can elaborate on that?

MR. HOLLETT: There are well in excess of 20,000 students in the Province

who are receiving some sort of specialized supports, and most of those students

would have an ISSP prepared for them. That is worked out between various

professionals in the community and the Department of Health. There could be

social workers involved. It could be the school board or the itinerant teachers

either within the school board, the teacher, the principal, the parents, all of

these people who are involved in doing that. They do come up with an

individualized plan for every student which could result in one of the

criterion-based teachers or one of the general special education teachers

providing whatever supports are deemed necessary on a standardized assessment

basis. Occasionally, but in really very limited numbers relative to the total

number of students, you know, there may well be some disagreement, at certain

points, between parents and-or the principal and what actually gets provided at

the end of the day. There is a process for working that out and there are

professional staff within the Department of Education who work with all

involved, including the parents, to make sure that the students, on a fair and

equitable basis, get the supports that they need.

MR. BUTLER: For instance, the schools that are going to close - I know Ms

the teaching staff who are in those schools, would they move then to the school

in Terrenceville or will they be spread throughout the system in some other

area? Would some of them go with the students or are there sufficient teachers,

say, in Terrenceville to cover off on the numbers of students who will be coming

there?

MS BURKE: That is hard to answer, because that would be very much

dependent on where the board is going to have resources in the fall, and then it

would depend on seniority and their speciality. There may be a phys ed teacher

with twenty years in the school and the one coming behind, who's school is

getting displaced, might be a phys ed teacher with seven years, so he may not,

but there might be another opening in another community for a teacher within

that board. It would depend on the allocation of teachers. Just because we have

left the teachers in the system and we have left it status quo with the boards,

the boards could still switch teachers around depending on one school may be

down enrollment and one school may be up enrollment. They still have that

flexibility to deal with the needs. It is not a guarantee and it would certainly

be done according to the collective agreement of the Teachers' Union.

MR. BUTLER: If, for instance - and I am only using a hypothetical figure

now - there were twenty, thirty or forty teachers to retire this year, would

they be new hirings that would take place or would they be a part of the 150 who

are staying in the system?

MS BURKE: If there are 151 staying in the system and there are 300

retired, there would be 300 new hires coming in behind them.

MR. BUTLER: My colleague, earlier - and maybe you answered it. If you

did, Sir, just speak up. With regard to the changes that were made in the

Exploits area, has the department had any word from a group or groups trying to

reverse that decision again? I know it was changed. The board made a decision,

then government went in and made the changes. Have you people heard anything

about how some people are concerned about that change now and want it to stay as

it was or anything like that?

MS BURKE: There are four people who have indicated that they would like

to see further consultation. One person faxed me letters with four different

names. I got four letters on it. In response, I guess, to the four letters I

probably got I don't know how many of the opposing view. There was a survey

sent out through Helen Tulk Elementary that wasn't sanctioned by the board. It

was sent out without being signed which caused a bit of a flurry for those four

letters to come in, and then quickly followed by a flurry of letters from people

who have said: What are you doing here? The board sent out a letter saying they

will further consult on how they are going to have a K to 12 system in Bishop's

Falls. So, there is no guarantee.

Right now there are still three schools in Bishop's Falls. I don't think

they will have three schools forever in Bishop's Falls. One, as I said before,

takes the overflow of Grades 7 and 8, 9 to 12 are up in Leo Burke Academy and K

to 6 are in Helen Tulk. I don't think either one of the schools today have the

capacity to take in the 7s and 8s, unless they do it on some kind of a gradual

basis. Maybe they can put the 7s and 8s in the high school if there is enough

room up there. In fairness, there is not a whole lot of empty space and empty

classrooms within that community right now. There are still 500 students in the

community.

MR. BUTLER: Has government done an assessment of the new math curriculum?

From what I am hearing, it is very challenging to students and parents alike.

MS BURKE: Right. I can speak to that very well, actually. I have a

daughter who started this program in Kindergarten, so we are the first group

that has followed this through. I can assure you it has not been without

frustration. One thing I have noticed - I have had these conversations within

the department. I am going to give a bit of a long-winded answer, although the

right answer and the short answer is that we are monitoring the program.

The program itself broken down, its individual components, I thought the

students could do quite well. They could take the test and do it and they could

get everything right on the test. All of the sudden, there would be these one or

two questions at the bottom which would consolidate all the skills that you just

did individually, and guaranteed that one question that showed that you could

integrate the skills would be the wrong answer. It led to a lot of frustration.

What I am finding - and I am only speaking right now strictly as a parent who

understands where this is going, the program. I finally had a bit of relief this

year in Grade 6, that I think the program is starting to come together. The

concepts that we have been teaching over the years that have been done, I think,

in silos, because they haven't really come together as this analytical way of

thinking, are starting. What we are trying to get at in this broader-based

problem solving way of looking at math I think is going to happen. In saying

that, we are monitoring that program and we are doing it through the CRTs and we

are doing comparisons with other provinces.

Basically, the change in the math program is consistent in the changes that

have been going on in North America. This is not something that Newfoundland and

Labrador created as we were going to do math differently. We are certainly on

par with the Atlantic Provinces and on par with Canada and North America in

that. I really think, if we are going to prepare our students, we do not provide

any program that is lesser than what they are going to get if they go to another

Province or to another school.

In saying that, we will monitor the program, we will monitor the results, we

will look at the CRTs and we have to make sure that our students are doing what

they need to be doing. If there are going to be areas where the curriculum

outcomes are not being met we will have to make sure that part of the curriculum

is either altered or modified so that we provide adequate professional

development, because this is new for the teachers too as we are introducing it.

I think as of next year the whole program, because it came in on a junior

high basis and it came in on a kindergarten basis - you can correct me if I am

wrong - but I think by next year it should be the full integrated program at

every grade level. It was coming in over a number of years. The students in

Grade 5 last year were doing the new program and the students in Grade 6 were

doing the previous program, so the teacher had to switch gears come September to

be able to introduce the new curriculum that we are looking at. There have been

changes but we are going to monitor it.

My thoughts are that if we fine-tune it and we follow it and make sure we

modify it as we need, I think it will provide a very analytical problem solving

basis for mathematics, something that I think the students really need.

MR. BUTLER: Did you say that we are on par with the other provinces?

MS BURKE: As far as curriculum, as far as being a problem solving,

analytical based mathematical program. The other Atlantic Provinces have similar

curriculum.

MR. BUTLER: It is difficult when somebody comes home and says, mom cannot

do this and I do not know to do it, and they come to the grandfather and you can

give them the right answer.

MS BURKE: But they do not know how you got it.

MR. BUTLER: It is nothing like what they are doing in school. I hear a

lot of that. I know it firsthand, number one.

The other one, Minister - I would just like to ask a straightforward question

- what is the classroom size and teacher ratio now here in this Province versus

other provinces? I know we have heard over several years now, back and forth,

that we were the lowest, but no Quebec is the lowest, and so on. I am just

wondering: What is it as we speak per se?

MS BURKE: Our average class size - I do not know what it is for the other

provinces, but in 2005-2006 our average class size was 20.5 students per

teacher.

MR. BUTLER: That is the average over the full Province, we will say?

MS BURKE: I can break it down if you want to know how many classes had

less than ten, twelve to fifteen, sixteen to twenty, twenty-one to twenty-five,

twenty-six to thirty, thirty-one to thirty-five, thirty-six to forty and over

forty-one. I can go through -

MR. BUTLER: The last two or three highest ones.

MS BURKE: Over forty-one is zero, thirty-six to forty is .6 per cent, and

thirty-one to thirty-five is 5.6 per cent. The highest percentage of students,

the highest category, is between sixteen and twenty at 25.4 per cent.

MR. BUTLER: The policy with regards to the 1.6 kilometer distance to bus

students, has that been reviewed or coming to the forefront recently?

MS BURKE: No.

MR. BUTLER: No?

MS BURKE: It has not been reviewed and it has not come to the forefront

recently.

MR. BUTLER: I know it has been there for years on the books, but I do not

think it is actually carried out everywhere. My understanding is probably this

is starting at the board level again and so on. I do know that I have had

parents call me and I have had teachers call me saying that they have been

instructed to try to get a distance from the school to every house and so on,

because people are starting to get all wound up again now that they have to

cross a four-lane highway in Bay Roberts for small children to walk to Coley's

Point. I thought there might have been something through the department as well,

but I guess it is just probably from the school board.

MR. HAYWARD: That 1.6 is there. On occasion, if there is courtesy seating

available on a bus they may pick some children up in that 1.6, but the 1.6 has

been the rule for quite some time.

MR. BUTLER: I had some questions here, but she is after getting into them

too.

The $125,000, I know this was discussed but I do not think the part that I am

going to ask you about the liaison position between the school board and that -

I take it that person has not been hired. I was wondering: Would it be a posted

position for that like we see usually for a lot of positions, or how will that

be done?

MS BURKE: We haven't got the job description written yet, although we

do have some idea of what we are going to be looking for. I would think it will

go through a competition process.

MR. BUTLER: I suppose in a similar vein to where she was asking you

questions about the teachers who were suspended - and I know there were a couple

who made the media, I guess, more than others, but there were other situations

as well. I know another one in my area, and I do not want to elaborate on that

because hopefully it is all over with now. There was another incident in the

Conception Bay North area. My understanding is that there are cases like this

where there has been legal action taken in other provinces. When this was

ongoing, did the department have any concerns that this might come back to the

department in legal matters when those people were dismissed? I understand what

you mentioned to her when you responded, that it was a CEO who has the total

jurisdiction. I am wondering if, say for instance, that did happen - not saying

legal action is going to happen here, but it has happened away - then I guess it

would come back totally to the department, or would it be through the school

board itself?

MS BURKE: It would be through the board. The legal action would be taken

against the board as the employer.

MR. BUTLER: Professional development opportunities in the school system:

I know from time to time, not all that much, you hear teachers raising questions

about it during conversations and that. I am just wondering: Has that been

looked at by the department? I know at that time there were a lot of concerns

raised by teachers, I suppose, when a couple of those issues happened, but then

silence again. I was wondering: Was there very much information come forward to

the department along those lines, or would that be totally through the board as

well?

MS BURKE: Bruce you can add to this. I know some of the professional

development that is available for teachers is done in conjunction with the

Department of Education. For instance, last week we had the arts conference here

in St. John's where a lot of the teachers who deliver the arts program in

Newfoundland and Labrador had the opportunity to attend professional

development, which was a conference with some Newfoundland and Labrador artists

as well. We also provide professional development - we don't provide it, I

guess, the boards do - based on the need, like for the math curriculum and for

the teachers to be able to participate to be able to be introduced to the new

program and the methods. Although the board offers the professional development,

it is not necessarily done in isolation of the department, but there could also

be board initiatives that wouldn't engage the department.

MR. HOLLETT: Really it is a combination of both, Mr. Butler. What happens

is the boards would do some of the professional development themselves, the

department will go out to districts and provide in-servicing, and sometimes

there is provincial level in-servicing that takes place in St. John's. It is a

combination of those. We have a total professional development budget. We

provide some of that to the boards and we do some of it directly through the

department through our own curriculum consultants.

MR. BUTLER: The other issue with regard to school bus safety: I know in

the Budget this year there are sixty-seven new buses. I think when we were in

the lockdown or lockup, whatever you want to call it, that day we were advised

that the sixty-seven buses would be going totally to the school boards that have

their own busing systems. That is correct, is it?

MR. HOLLETT: That is correct.

MR. BUTLER: Out in my area, the school boards unfortunately don't have

that system and you have a lot of the operators out there vying for a contract

to try to make a dollar. I am wondering: Are there any plans to try and correct

that? Let's face it, when they get out there and there are five or six

competing against each other and they are dropping the prices down so they will

get two or three buses on and make that couple of dollars, by doing so I guess

they are buying cheaper buses because they don't have enough money coming in

to get a newer bus? Are there any plans that all school boards will be set up

the way those other ones are, where government is providing them with the buses?

What steps is government taking or planning on taking with regard to safety?

Now, don't get me wrong, I know every operator who has a bus out there and

I know most of the drivers, so I am not complaining about those people. They are

in this system and they are fighting for survival. Having said that, I guess the

crucial thing is the young people who get aboard those buses. No disrespect -

there is no one trying to injure a child or anything.

The Auditor General's Report stated that there were many cases, and

probably some of them are out in our area, no doubt about that, where they are

doing the inspections themselves on their buses and so on. I have heard bus

drivers say to myself: I wish someone would come and inspect my bus. I guess

they are there to make a dollar and they are on the buses from time to time. It

is a major concern, I think it is, and I hope nothing happens through it.

I was just wondering: Has the department looked [technical difficulty] or

some of the other school board systems, or is there another way around it so

that those people can be assisted? I know it is a job to do, I suppose, to

assist someone if they are a private operator to get newer buses when they are

making their money from what they are doing. I am just wondering how -

MR. HAYWARD: We run around 900 buses in the Province, 300 of them are

board owned, 600 of them are contracted through the contractors, as you are

saying.

MR. BUTLER: Six hundred.

MR. HAYWARD: Six hundred of the 900 in round numbers. Government Services

has inspectors out there who inspect those vehicles three times a year, and they

are responsible for the inspections.

What the Department of Education has started to do is - in 2005-2006 we had

around 100 contracts with these contractors come due for renewal. We implemented

a policy last year to reduce the maximum age of buses on the highway from

fourteen years to twelve years, and funding is provided in the Budget this year

to continue with that initiative. Up until last year a bus could be on the

highway that was fourteen years old. We have started to faze down the age of

buses now to twelve years old and we have put funding in this Budget to continue

that initiative.

We have also being working with the School Bus Owners Association to try to

deal with some of their funding issues, and one of the ways we have been doing

that is trying to, where possible, do five-year bus contracts with them so they

can finance their bus purchases over a longer period of time. In the scenario I

just said, if somebody wanted to bid a new contract in this year, they would

really go out and buy a six or seven-year-old bus to get five years out of it to

get to the age of twelve. We are working with the contracted Bus Owners

Association and putting money in the Budget to continue to get the contracted

buses age reduced considerably. That is what we are trying to do.

MR. BUTLER: My next question: Has it ever been considered about seatbelts

on school buses? Is it mandatory in other provinces or have we looked at it

here?

MR. HAYWARD: As I understand it, and I am no expert in this field,

Transport Canada regulates this. There isn't any province that requires

seatbelts on buses. I cannot say that with 100 per cent certainty, but to the

best of my knowledge. Apparently they are designed in such a way that the

compartmentalizat