LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (B irtle­ Russell): Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COM MITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the first report of the Standing Committee on Private Bills. . R. CLERK: Your Committee met on Tuesday, Jun e 17 , 19 80, and appointed Mr. Steen as Chairman. Your Committee has consi dered bills: Bill No. 11 -

An Act to incorp orate The Brandon General Hospital Foundation, Bill No. 17 -

An Act to amend

An Act respecting the Agricultur al and Community District of Newdale, Bill No. 24 -

An Act to amend The Manitoba Club Act, 19 31, Bill No. 29 -

An Act to amend

An Act respecting Victoria General Hospital, Bill No. 45 - The In vestors Synd icate Limited Act, 19 80, Bill No. 46 -

An Act to amend

An Act Incorporating The Regent Trust Company, Bill No. 52 -

An Act to amend

An Act to amend, revise and cons olida te

An Act respecting the Congregation Shaarey Zedek. And has agreed to report the same without amendment Your Committee has also considered Bills: Bill No. 41 -

An Act to in corpor ate the Bethesda Foundation, Bill No. 53 - The Winnipeg Foundation Act. And has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EI NARSON: I move, se conde d by the Honourable Member for Roblin, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Mem ber for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR: Mr. Sp eaker, the Commi ttee of Supply has adop ted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again.

I move, seconded by the Member for Wolseley, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARS ON: I beg to move, Mr. Speaker, seconded by the Member for Roblin, that the fees paid with respect to the following bills be refunded, less the cost of printing: Bill No. 11 -

An Act to incorporate The Brandon General Hospital Foundation, Bill No. 17 -

An Act to amend

An Act respecting the Agricultur al and Community District of Newdale, Bill No. 29 -

An Act to amend

An Act respecting Victoria General Hospital, Bill No. 41 -

An Act to incorp orate the Bethesda Foundation, Bill No. 52 -

An Act to amend

An Act to amend, revise and consoli date

An Act respecting the Congregation Sha arey Zedek, Bill No. 53 - The Winn ipeg Foundation Act, Bill No. 37 -

An Act to amend

An Act to in cor porate the Wawanesa and District Memorial Hospital Association. (2nd Session, 31 st Legislature, 19 78). MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATE MENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Mi nis ter of Municipal Affairs. HON. DOUG GOURL AY (S wan River): Mr . Speaker, I wish to table the Preliminary Statistics for District Meetings, Union of Manitoba Municip alities, by the Manitoba Assessment Review Committee. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ... Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUES TS MR.

SPEAKER: At this time, I would like to introduce to the honourable members 23 students of Grade 4 and 5 standing from the Ja meswood Elementary School, under the dir ection of Mrs. Stefanson. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourabl e Mini ster of Economic Development We have 4!i students of Grade 9 to 11 standing from the R.B. Russell School, under the direction of Mr. Lukovich. This school is in the constitutency of the Honourable Member for Point Douglas. We have 29 students of Grade 4 standing from St. Norbert Elementary School under the direction of Mrs. LaFleche.

This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Health. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. 4843 M

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Agriculture. Can the Minister of Agriculture provide us with any upda ting as to whether or not there have been any changes in the past several days pertaining to the impact of the drought on the agricultural conditions in the province? HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr.

Speaker, there has been some spotty showers throughout the province but really no significant rainfall to alleviate the di fficulty that the farm commun ity is going through at this particular time. MR. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, a question to the Minister responsible for the Environment and for the office of the Queen's Printer. Can the Minis ter advise whether or not he has received any complaints pertaining to dela ys on the part of the Queen's Printer from government cir cles or agencies depending upon the office of the Queen's Printer? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minis ter of Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs.

HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Nothing, Mr. Speaker, that would be consi dered out of the ordin ary, dela ys in the printing of Hansard and things like that, which are not unusual. MR. PAWLEY: Can the Min ister confirm that he has received com plaints from memb ers of the judiciary pertaining to delays in receiving Statutes from the office of the Queen's Printer, outside of the normal waiting period for receipt of Statutes? MR. JORGENSON: No, Mr. Speaker, such a complaint has not been drawn to my attention. MR.

PAWLEY: A further sup pleme ntary to the Minister: Can the Minister advise whether or not there have been any recent changes in respect to top management of the Queen's Printer? MR. JORGENSON: Pr inter hims elf responsibilities. Yes, Mr. Speaker, the Queen's has been relieved of his MR. PAWLEY: A further suppleme ntary to the Minister: Can the Minister advise whether or not any replacement has been obtained for the Queen's Printer, in view of this replacement? MR. JORGENSON: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, a temporary replacement is now acting as the Queen's Printer and competitions will be held for the office of the Queen's Printer in due course. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, can the Minis ter advise whether or not, in view of the lateness in receiving bills, whether any of that is attributable to the office of the Queen's Printer? MR. JORGENSON: No, Mr. Speaker. I would think not. It may have some slight bearing, but I don't think a sign ificant one. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Several weeks ago, the Minis ter of Agriculture during estimates, ind icated that Crown lands would be available to farmers who requir ed grazing areas for cattle, that they should make application and those applications would be dealt with. I'd like to ask the Min ister of Agriculture to ind icate the reasons within his department as to the long delays in approving applications for farmers waiting to use Crown lands for grazing purp oses in these extreme conditions, as he has so acknowledged? MR. SPE AKER: The Ho nourable Min ister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated, we were making Crown lands available. If the member has a specific piece of land that he could refer to so we could trace that particular one down, it would be helpful, as a general policy and directive from me has been to speed up the process and make as much of that Crown land available as possible and have the decision-makin g process shortened to where farmers can move fairly ra pidly to ta ke advantage of grasses that are available on Crown lands. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask this Mini ster, or his First Minister, whether the Min ister of Agriculture in the province of Manitoba has any authority in this government, or does he not realize the seriousness of the situation; if he does, can he assure the farmers today that they can undertake the necessary movement of cattle, the fencing that is necessary for the land that they have applied for. Or are they going to have to wait until it's too late when they already have to look for hay in the province of Manitoba and can get on the land that they have applied for, Mr. Speaker? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, I think probably what I have been answering over the past few days has been the same kinds of questions I am getting from the member today. We have been doing a multitude of things to alleviate the problems that the farm commu nity are facing during these dry conditions. To further elaborate on what the member is suggesting, I think if he could, in any way, give us a specific case that he's refer ring to, it may be helpful to trace down some of the difficulties that he is ref erring to.

But in a general sense, we have been putting in place programs, we have activated the intergovernment departments to make these lands available, and it's just a matter of the farmers going ahead and identifying those Crown lands or getting those Crown lands available that they see they want to use. It's in the process, Mr. Speaker. If in fact there are some areas that are being held up, I would like the member to tell me. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. The Mini ster well knows that there are lands that are 4844

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 even outside the management area; the identification of Crown lands is not necessary. We know where the Crown lands are. The Mini ster of Agriculture should make sure that his colleague, who appears to have more authority than the Min ister of Agriculture over lands where resources have the jurisdiction - I would hope that he could put into place the necessary mechanism to speed up the applications that have been made by farmers who are waiting for those Crown lands.

If he can give that assurance to this House and to the farmers that those applications will be dealt with immediately, not where farmers have made applications two and three weeks ago and have had no replies because of the cumbersome proc edur e that this government has und ertaken dealing with Crown lands, so that he can move things very qu ickly. And as well, Mr.

Speaker, whether the Mini ster would like to make a statement with respect to the Saskeram area, since he has declined to meet with farmers from The Pas area, and the Reeves and Councils from that area, whether he has any announcements to make with respect to hay cutting in that area, Mr. Speaker? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, some weeks ago, we announced that we were providing transportation for livestock to the Crown lands that were identified usable.

And with reference to the Saskeram, I stated in the House that the Saskeram area was being made available to the livestock producers; that we were assessing - I had a man in the field assessing what the water levels would have to be lowered to to take advantage of the hay crop that was there, that we were implementing a structure, a bridge, so that we could get to those particular properties. That all, Mr. Speaker, is taking place, plus the fact, I've had daily contact with the Farmers Association in that particular area, as well as communication with the Reeve of that particular area.

I would also like to add, Mr. Speaker, that there has to be a system worked out to allocate that hay, and I firmly believe, Mr. Speaker, that the local municip alities have to be involved in that allocation, that it can't directly come from government. It's a joint effort that has to be put forward to work together when we have times of difficulty such as we're experiencing with the dry weather. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBRYDE: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the Mini ster to make doubly sure in my mind that I understand what's happening in terms of the Saskeram area at The Pas. Has agreement been reached with Ducks Unlimited to drain that area; has the government made a firm decision now and has draining begun in that area? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, the jurisdiction of water control falls within the jur isd iction of my colleague, the Minister of Resources, but I would have to say that we have been in consultation with Ducks Unlimi ted, that the authority to lower the water level lies with the Min ister of Resources, and we will be dealing with that particular item later on this afternoon. But I can assure him that all action possible has been taken to make that hay available, and one of those considerations is to lower the water in that particular area. And there has been consultation with the Ducks Unlimited. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Speaker, I believe I had better add ress a question to the Mini ster of Resources then, because both in the answer the Mini ster gave yesterday and today, he implied that the land was going to be drained, but later on in his answer there was some indication that that decision has not been made yet. So I wonder if the Mini ster of Resources could tell us whether or not the government of Manitoba has yet made a decision to lower the water levels to al low draina ge to take pla ce in the Saskeram area near The Pas and whether that process has started yet? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Mi nister of Natural Resources.

HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Kil larney): Mr. Speaker, I think that my colleague, the Minis ter of Agriculture is correct in saying that the decision in principle has been made, that we will in fact, be managing the area to produce more hay than is the case ordinarily. But the actual water management regime has not been decided upon, because it's necessary to decide at what level we are able to get a greater production of hay and still not impact too greatly on the other resource considerations.

I'm sure that the honourable member is aware that the local Indian band, for instance, has an interest in the area, that part of their welfare depends upon that area producing wildlife, as it was intended to do. And so it's not our intention to simply ignore those interests in order to be able to produce more hay. So the question is, how do we balance the traditional interests, plus the interests that arise out of this immediate situation. And that's what we are now addressing, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas with a final supplementary. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Speaker, I think it would be probably best to direct a question to the Minister of Agriculture, although if the Mi nister of Resources feels more able to answer it, he could proceed. But I wanted to know from the government side, when did they begin planning, or when did they begin consideration of the potential of the Saskeram area because of the drought conditions?

When did the Minis ter or his department or the Drought Committee that is su pp osed to be making plans, begin considering and making active plans for the use of the Saskeram area, and did they do it before the farmers threatened to remove the dam themselves? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, the Saskeram has been part of the drought committee discussions well before several weeks ago, in fact the first action by myself as the Minis ter to have farmers aware or alerted to the problems that the drought could incur, was to make an announcement prior to the deadline for crop insurance, prior to April 30th, by a public 484 5

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 press statement that the deadline was in fact April 30th. Following on our meetings within government and some of the discussions held within the department, the Saskeram was part of those overall discussions. The decision had been made some time before any kind of action was takeri in The Pas area, prior to any of the recent di scussions or the information that he's been receiving out of that particular area. In fact, Mr .

Speaker, I could also ind icate to the member that The Pas district farmers for several years have been showing their concern and wer en't getti ng any response un der the members opposite, but in fact they are now getting some response from this go vernment here today. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to dir ect a question to the Min ister of Government Services and to welcome him back from his junket to Great Britain. I hope that he hasn't picked up any British affect ations or affected the British at the same time. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask him a question concerning the talks that have been going on and the discussions concerning urban renewal in the city of Winnip eg between the federal government, the province, and the city of Winnip eg, and ask him whether he has attem pted to plan any new construction in lieu of the cancellation of the autopac building or the shifting of the courthouse from the city hall region to the downtown area? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourab le Min ister of Government Services. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker, I'm delighted to indi cate to the honourable member op posite, they did take note of my temp orary absence, but the question the honourable member refers to of course, comes more dir ectly under the chairmanship of my colleague the Mi nister of Urban Affairs, who has meetings on a more regular basis with the members of city council.

I can ind icate to him only as Government Services Mi nister that I have received a specific request from the city of Winnip eg for expressing an interest in some of the property that the honourable member refers to that had been expropria ted for yet another unne cessary pu blic building. We are of course in the process of building those buildings, such as the 12 million courthouse complex which many people are looking forward to in the judiciary for completion, and when other plans will be in a position to be announced, they will be announced. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Minis ter whether any reconsideration is being given by the Minister upon the request of the city, or upon the request of his colleague, the Mi nister of Urban Affairs, to relocate the new courts building into the city hall complex? MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, no, the answer is a short and very definitive no. There seems to be a very unani mous opinion among those who have to work in the judicial system that the present choice of the location of the planned new court facilities is the right one.

The city has expressed, and it's an assumption on my part, that their inter est in some of the lands are for potential expansion of admi nis tr ative or other city-related reasons for wishing to have that land. Both the Mayor and the Chie f Comm ission er, Mr . Nick Diakiw , have informally, and I under stand more formally through the offices of the Urban Affairs Min ister, made specific requests for that land, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho no ur able Memb er for Elmwood with a final sup plementa ry. MR. DOERN: Mr .

Speaker, I'd ask the Min ister whether he has informed the First Minis ter that the new provincial garage will be fully accessed in a couple of months. MR. ENNS : Mr .

Speaker, because of this government's continued interest in education, and because we can use fully 25 percent of that building for badly needed space and vocational training for my colleague the Min ister of Education, and because we have moved on and made a final decision with respect to the location of the court complex, for that reason, roughly speaking, 2/3rd 's of the white elephant that was built some five years ago will be utilized by this government this September.

We are being supported in that role with the fed er al government helping as they do in the capital acquisition of making those kinds of vocational job training spaces available, education spaces available, and I can ind icate to the ho nourable mem ber opposite that it was the kind of co-operation that I think honourable members opposite would expect from Minis ters on this side, co-operation from the Minster of Education in this case, working together with the Minis ter of Government Services to make the best possible of surplus space that we had inherited, Sir. MR.

SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood with a fourth question. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I just ask the Mini ster whether he has finally found his car which apparently was missing? INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Order please. If my interject at this moment, or interrupt, we have 27 students from Kindergarten to Grade 8, from Milltown Elementary School, under the direction of Mrs. Skrabek. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Mini ster of Consumer and Corporate Affai rs. On behalf of all the honourable mem bers, we welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS (Cont'

d) MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, if I could just repeat that - I believe the Mi nister was stopped from answering - has he finally found his car, or was his trip to Britain partly for the purpose of looking for it? 4846

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Mini ster of Northern Affairs.

I'd ask the Minister, in light of a recent announ cement that Pacific Western Airli nes has cancelled a numb er of scheduled flights to northern Manitoba communities, and as these scheduled changes follow a series of major scheduled changes in northern Manitoba in northern service by PWA over the last number of years, is the Min ister prepared to investigate the impact that these cutbacks and reductions in service will have on northerners wishing to travel by air service? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. GOU RLAY: Yes, Mr.

Sp eaker, I'd be interested in studying the impact it would create on the northern communities. MR. COWAN: Thank you. A supplementary to the Minister of Northern Affairs would be, as there have been sign ificant cutbacks in sche duling and air service among local air carriers in northern Manitoba and as there appears to, at the same time, have been a substantial increase in air fares and shipping costs charged by these local air carriers, is the Mini ster prepared to fully inv estigate all aspects cha nges and recent ch anges in no rthern air transportation services? MR. GOURLAY: Mr.

Speaker, the comments from the Mini ster, the Member for Churchill, are quite interesting because recent indications that I have is that the northern carriers have never been busier in the last ten years than they are right now. MR. SP EAKER: The Ho no urable Memb er for Churchill with a final supplementary. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Well, then, I'm glad I brought this matter to the Mini ster's attention, because the fact is that there have been substantial cutbacks in sche duling in service of communities, which may or may not correspond with increases in other sorts of activity, but the activity that is ongoing for the benefit of community residents has, in many instances, been cut back.

I would ask the Mini ster to investigate that, and as I have personally been approached by a number of constituents and I know that there is obviously great public interest as well as concern about these cutbacks and reductions in northern air service, I would ask the Mini ster if he is prepared to open his investigation to the public so that he can make those concerns known to him and known to those persons doing those investigations, and I would ask him if he is prepared to do so by way of making this a public inquir y into reduction of air services in northern Manitoba conducted by the provincial government on behalf of those citizens in northern Manitoba who are having to suffer through those cutbacks and reductions?

MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, I would be pleased to take this question under advisement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My qu estion is to the Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture.

In view of the fact that the Milk Control Board has exp ressed concern over the effect on disadvantaged indi viduals of the incr eases in the price of milk, particularly the effect on low income expectant mothers and on the aged, and the Milk Control Board having announced that it will initiate a review of means by which fluid milk may be made available at a lower cost than the maximum, could the Mini ster please advise the House how this review will be conduc ted and spe cifically, who will be conducting the review? MR. SP EAKER: The Hono urable Mini ster of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: First of all, Mr.

Speaker, I don't really know what authority the Milk Control Board have to have such a review, however I am looking into that particular matter. I would also like to say, Mr. Speaker, that our government, in the recent budget that was introduced, have certainly shown their concern for low income people by introducing a CRISP Program, a child program to assist those low income peoples who are in need, and many other items in the budget that are zeroing in on those particular people. MRS.

WESTBURY: May I take it, then, that the Mini ster took my question as notice and will advise the House as to the answer to the question, Mr. Speaker? Then my second question to the Mini ster is, will he advise the House how this review is to be conducted, if it is to be conducted, and by whom it will be cond ucted? Will there be hearings open to the public; will the public be permitted to make representations? Will he give us a full report on the method that this review, which is described in a news release dated June 12 th from the Milk Control Board, how it is to be conducted, Mr. Speaker? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, as I'v e ind icated, after reading the same press release that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge has read, I have asked the Milk Control Board to report back to me on what the proposed type of review is that they're anticipating, and under what authority they have to make that kind of a review. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs. Did the Mini ster authorize and appr ove the press release issued by Information Services Branch under her name? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nis ter of Cultural Affairs. 4847

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 HON. NORMA L. PRICE (Assiniboia): I would like the Member for St. Bon iface to be more specific. I don't know which one you are referri ng to. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr . Speaker, is it then the custom of the Mini ster to approve some and not others, when she is quoted at making at statement in the press? MRS. PRICE: Mr. Spea ker, I've app roved many public information releases, so I don't know what you're ref erring to. MR. DESJARDINS: I can tell the Min ister what I was ref erring to, but the Minis ter opened another avenue.

It seems that she doesn't kno w if she appr oves them all, although they quote the Min ister. The one that I'm referring to is the one dated June 13, 19 80, Continuing Cultural Exchange with France. MRS. PRICE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I app roved it. MR. DESJARDINS: Then, Mr. Speaker, would the Minister check her facts because it's misleading; in fact it's mor e than mi slead ing. Some of these statements are not factual at all, they are contrary to what has happened . So I wonder if the Mi nister would check the facts before this information goes to the public. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono ur able Member for Brandon East.

MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to ask a question of the Mini ster of Economic Dev elopment, which is a follow-up to the questions asked by my colleague, the Member for Churchill, on cutbacks in air service to Manitoba points. The Pacific Western Airlines, which took over the service from TransAir, Mr. Speaker, have stated in their annou ncement tha t the reason for the cutbacks in the north is the insufficient passenger traffic.

My question to the Mi nister of Economic Dev elopment is, has his transpor tation staff examined the basic reasons for this lack of traffic, and do their studie s confirm that, in the final analysis, a drop in levels of economic activity and higher unem ployment in the north are among the chief reasons for this lagging demand? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Economic Dev elopment. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (St urgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, the Mini ster of Northern Affairs took the question as notice. I'm not familiar with the

article that he's read ing from. The transport group does come under my department. I also will take it as notice, and the Min ister of Northern Affairs and I will give an answer, but I can say there's never been more exploration and more things going on in the north in years than there is right now. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, PWA have announced cutbacks in services in an east-west dir ection as well as north-south.

I wonder if the Mini ster who is responsible for transportation matters, the Min ister of Economic Devel opmen t, would approach the Canadian Transport Commission and complain about this reduction of air service to Manitoba points and make representation, in effect, to see that we are getting the service that we should be getting by PWA, inasmuch as it has taken over the responsibility from TransAir. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, again, I'll take it as notice and inform the honourable member when we have all the information in front of us. MR.

SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Mem ber for Brandon East with a final supp lementary. MR. EVANS: I have a supple men tary to the Honourable Min ister respecting the long sough t-after jet air service to the city of Brandon. During the last provincial elec tion, the Conservative leader commit ted a possible Conservative Party government to im plement what he described as first class, namely jet air service to the city of Brandon. My que stion to the Honourable Minister is, what is the government prepared to do now to bring this about?

Or is the Premier and this government ready to admit that they are really not in a position to fulfill that particular election commitment? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minis ter of Economic Devel opment. MR. JOHNSTON: On the contrary, Mr. Speaker. The member was once in charge of the transport group, and he obviously didn't know how it operated. Mr. Speaker, the request for PWA to go Calg ary, Brandon, Toronto, is still there, it's still waiting for a hearing in front of the CTC. I wonder if the member sent his letter?

There has been a concerted effort by the de partment to get the people of Brandon working with the Chamber of Commer ce, the city of Brandon and everybody, to write and inform the CTC of their interest. There is a second drive being put on in Brandon, which has been requested by my department to not only go to the CTC, but the three comm issioners that are in Ma ni toba. They are requesting that it be done by hearing in Brandon, and there is a lot of work going on in co-ordination with our department and the people of Brandon to get this done. I'm very surpris ed the Member for Brandon East doesn't know about it.

MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I'm well aware of efforts by many people in that community and in western Manitoba to try to bring about what seems to be a very elusive objective. My question is to the Mini ster and to this government, are they finally prepared to admit that they haven't got the power or the ability to try to bring about this service? They're very good at pu blic announ cements when there was a possibility that it was coming a few months ago, but what can the government of Manitoba do to bring this jet service about? Or is it prepared to offer some subidy to PWA to make it attractive to it?

I'm sure that is not the case. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, PWA made it very plain they don't want any subsidy. And the CTC are the people that will make the decision. I have written the Mi nister on two occasions, I've written the Chairman of CTC; we will be prepared to meet with 4848

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 them; we are continuing to work on it. The member is right in that respect, it will be the CTC that makes the decision. But PWA has asked for no su bsidy to give that service, and they'd very much like to do it. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. My question is directed to the Min ister responsible for Housing. Has he or his staff had a chance to look at the federal announcement that the Residential Rehabili tation Assistance Program, RRAP, will be expanded by five percent over last year's amount?

Has his department looked at that, and are they satisfied that a meagre five percent increase is sufficient, given the slo wdown in construction in Manitoba? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I met with the Mini ster, the Honourable Paul Cosgrove yesterday, as the honourable members know, he was here. He told me he would be making an announ cement last night, but he did not give me the comple te details at that time. I was fortunate enough at noon to be speaking to the Hous ing and Rehabi litation Association of Canada, their convention being held in Winnipeg.

I might say that the Manitoba people were very encouraged and felt very good about the announc ement that was made. They would have liked to have seen the amount of money raised from 10,000 to a higher figure, but that apparently was not possible, but the qualifications have been raised to receive RRAP, and they felt as if it was a fair step in the right direction, Mr. Speaker. MR.

PARASIUK: I'd like to ask the Minis ter if the government of Manitoba is prepared to change the regulations concerning the Critical Ho me Repair program, in order to allow pensioners who have received a grant or a loan under the program over the last seven or eight years to reapply to the program to have renovations done to their homes so that they can continue to own their homes, impro ve their homes, while at the same time providing an opportuni ty to unem ployed people in Ma nitoba in the construction indus try to get them employment.

Is the government prepared to change tho se regulations, which really curtailed the Critical Ho me Repair program from being effectively continued as an instrument of government pol icy? MR. JOHNSTON: I don't accept the statement that it has impaired the critical home repair program, the fact that it hasn't been changed. Mr. Speaker, we were the ones that changed it from the previous government to making it a little different program. And aga in, Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Oppositio n, as I told you before, the honourable members accuse this side of the House and the First Minister of heckling, but he's the worst heckler in the House when Ministers are answering questions. Mr. Speaker, I can say to you that we are looking, as I told the honourable member before, at changing the Critical Home Repair progra m , and when the decisions are made, it will be announced. MR.

PARASIUK: Can the Minister confirm that he has answered my question, which has been asked for three years now - at every session, asking whether in fact the restrictive regulations imposed by the Con servative go vernment on the Critical Home Repair program would be removed, and the Mini ster has answered every time that they are reviewing the situation.

Is he now in a position, after three years, and after massive unemplo yment and tremendous cutbacks in the construction industry, to change the regulations, despite the laughing of the First Mini ster, despite 6.6 percent un empl oyment, despite tremendous uncertaint y in the Manitoba economy, will the Minister do something with respect to the Cr itical Ho me Repair Pr ogram to imp rove the cons truc tion ind ustry and the clim ate in the construction industr y in Ma nitoba? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, after I present the member with his Academy Award, I will tell him again it hasn't been three years that he has been asking me. He started to ask me last year. And when he asked me last year, we still had a large backlog, and I tell him again, we are looking at it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Memb er for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question to the Minister of Mu nicipal Affairs.

Can he advise as to whether he has received an app lication for the formation of a municipality by a group which is attempting to purcha se the old Rivers Air Force base, and if so, can he advise as to the status of that application for incorpo ration of a mu nicipality? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mi nister of Mu nicipal Affairs. MR. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of any such correspondence coming to my office as this point. MR.

SCHROEDER: Just further to that, is the Minister saying he has not had any correspondence from a group asking to purch ase the old Rivers Air Force base, or is it just that they haven't yet asked for municipal status? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mi nister of Economic Devel opment. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr . Speaker, there has been a group interested in privatizing the Rivers Airport. The question was asked last year, as a matter of fact, or by the Honourable Member for ln kster this year, and I informed him at that time that the Rivers base is a federal responsibility.

Our only concern at that time, through my office , was that we wanted to make sure the ind ustries there remained and worked in Rivers, and any change that would be made would have to be made between the federal go vernment. If there is a change made, the Minister of Mu nicipal Affairs may not have had the correspondence yet, but there would have to be work done if it's privatized to become part of the muni cipalities of Ma nitoba. But the decision is with the federal government, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for Rossmere with a final supplementa ry. 4849

Tuesday, �7 June, 1980 MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, in view of the fact that the Min ister of Economic Dev elopment answered the last one, maybe I'll ask him a further question: Has his research group, which he referred to last Friday, now confirmed to him that the relative drop in retail sales in Manitoba between January and April, first of all, was not due to any drought and, secondly, was due to the prot racted restraint program exercised , the acute protracted restraint program exercised by this government? MR. JOH NSTON: I answered the qu estion last Friday, Mr. Speaker.

I told the honourable member that my Research Department did inform me, and I'm well aware that the figur es that he was talking about took place between the first thr ee months of the year when there wasn't any drought. I also told him that inflation and high inter est rates were the main cause of people not buying as much. When the price of an

article goes up, sometimes people feel they can't afford it, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, my question, to the Minis ter of Econ omic Devel opm ent: Can the Mi nister of Economic Devel opment advise as to whether he has received a report as to the reasons for the closure of Jordan Wines and the su bsequent layoff, which is anticipated for October of this year, or some 18 to 20 emplo yees? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I am in possession of a letter that was delivered by hand to my office on June 12, and a press release that was issued the same date, June 12, by Jordan St. Micha el Cellars, the wine people in Selkirk. I ha ve had my development officers working with them. We have the size, the plant area, the machinery, the process machinery all listed. The plant will be pha sed out starting October 15 and the complete phasing by Jordan's will be by January the 1st. The plant was built in 1975 and they started bottling in 1976, Mr. Speaker.

The second paragraph of the letter reads as follo ws: Your go ver nment, and especially the Liquor Control Board, have been most co-operative in the past and this makes our decision all the more difficult. Ho wever, we have carefully analy zed the situation over a year and regretfully conclude that our operations are unpr ofitable and thus the need to close the Selkirk winery. I might also add, Mr. Speaker, they are closing their winery in Moose Jaw, as well. MR. SPEAKER : Order please. The time for question period having expired, we will proceed with Orders of the Day.

The Honourable Acting Government House Leader. HON. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr . Speaker, before presenting the motion for Supply, I can advise the House, Mr. Speaker, that it is the intention to meet in two Com mittees of Supply this afternoon, in Room 254 to consider Resolutions 122 and 123 on Page 91 of the estimates book, and in the Chamber to continue with 'the co nsideration of the estim ates of the De partment of Economic Devel opment and Tourism. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Min ister of Government Services, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Commi ttee of Supply with the Honourable Member tor Radisson in the Chair for Economic De velopm ent and Tourism, and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for Flood Control and Emergency Expenditures. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPL V - FLOOD CONTROL AND EMERGENCY EXPENDITURES MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order.

Page 91, Resolution 122, Flood Control and Emergency Expenditures. The Honourable Mini ster for an opening statement. MR. ENNS: No, there are no opening statements, from me. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1 - the Member for the Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr . Chairperson, I think the Min ister would like to give us a little bit more explanation of this item and some more detail on these funds. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I want the record to show that an honourable member of the opposition asked for some comment, an introduction of this item, on this June 19 th for the course of this Session. Mr.

Chairman, of course the flood seems like an awfully long time ago. We've been concerned and troubled with other matters since, of more recent vintage, but certainly the very severe flooding that the province experienced last spring required the kind of total effort that regrettably this province has over the years been able to gain all too much experience in, similar programs that again were requir ed that were in place in other flood years. By that I mean the general emergency nature work of the di fferent de partments co-o rdina ted by Emergency Measures Organization.

Citizens who were affected, whose property was affected by flood da mage, were assured early on that a sim ilar compensation program for repair work would be available to them, the only difference being that it was upgraded, Mr. Chairman. I will spare you the details, but in essence it was an upgrading of previous limits simply to take in account inflation factor costs of construction materials and/or workmanship. A limit that previously had been 7,500 was upped to 10,0 00 and so forth. Mr.

Chairman and members of the commit tee, the most notable change in the flood program that was introduced last spring, that was an in novation and that is still currently being carried out with a very high level of success, and that is the realization of 4850

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 both the federal gov ernment and the provincial government that the continual repairing of the same property, the same houses, in some instances the third, the fourth and the fifth time around, just didn't make a great deal of sense. Mr.

Chairman, I wouldn't want to suggest that the fact that the federal election was in full swing at about the time the rampaging waters of the Red were also in full swing, but I can indicate to you that we had the relatively fast concurrence of the Prime Minister, the Honourable Pierre Elliot Trudeau, who was the Prime Min ister at the time the flood waters were rising, and then indeed managed to carry on what was a promise in the back seat of a taxi, made to our First Minister on a short trip from here to the airport, by the then Prime Mini ster Trudeau, but that that commitment was kept by the incoming Prime Mini ster, that man who will long be remember by Canadians in the annals of history as having, within such a relatively short time, made such an indelible impres sion on the minds and on the lives of Canadians throughout the length and breadth of this country.

That is, Sir, referred to as the Flood Reduction Program. It is an 8 million program, which assists directly, under the supervision of the Manitoba Flood Disaster Assistance Board , the moving, the ring dyking, and/or the raising of buildings within the flood-prone area. Mr. Chairman, this program is a complicated one and it requires a great deal of co­ operation on the part of the municip al authorities. Before any project is approved, there has to be an agreement by the mun icipality that they will stringently control the building permits in that area henceforth.

The idea is, and that's why we call it the Flood Reduction Program, that we are prepared, in co-operation with the federal authorities, to expend substantial numbers of dollars, some 8 million it is estimated - and these are estimates - of public money, so that in the future floods, because we simply haven't resolved that flooding problem, we can expect future floods, that the physical damage to property will be substantially lessened; and indeed, one would hope, if floods are of the magnitude, or no greater than the magnitude that they were say in the 19 50 or 19 79 years, that while the inconvenience to people will of course remain, it has been proven that the damage to agricultural production is minimal, in fact, it can be argued that it's beneficial.

But the costly, repetitive repair, refurbishing and renovation of the buildings in the Red River Valley will no longer have to take place. That, Mr. Chairman, is perhaps the new program, the one new way that this gover111 ment has, with the co-operation of the federal government, dealt with the matter. Mr.

Chairman, ju st before I leave it, I can anticip ate the unde rstandable questions that the people who live beyond the currently designated Red River Valley, which is a designated area for this flood reduction program, there are of course other persons that have experienced a similar degree of flooding and with some degree of repetition. The government is currently negotiating with the federal government.

We have received indication at the officials level that the federal government would be fav ourably disposed to extending these areas, but the important matter right now is - and that's what's being carried on under the guid ance of the Manitoba Flood Assistance Board - the similar kind of recognition and support has to come from the local councils. That is, before we will provide flood protection for residents living, for instance, on the Whitemouth River or on the Ste.

Rose River in the north that have experienced years of flood ing, we need a commitment from that municipality, from the Local Government District, that they will not issue any building permits that are not in conformity with establish ed water level heights by the water reso urc es people. If those mun icipal ities are prepared to take that kind of undertaking, it will certainly be my hope, my wish, that we will be able to extend the flood reduction program to these areas.

I have encouraged and the Flood Board has received, I'm told, some 16 0 applications of persons of the type that I've just described who, at the moment, do not qualify for the program. When I say they do not qualify, they do not qu alify on two counts; that is that we don't have the federal governments appro val to extend the program beyond the Red River Valley and nor have we received the kind of assurances from the municipal and local government level that they are prepared to co­ operate and go along with the kind of building code restrictions that would have to be placed on them. Mr.

Chairman, I can indicate to the honourable members if asked certain additional questions as to the kind of number of applications received, some of the awards, the total amounts of awards that were received, I'm at the indulgence of the committee in my usual co-operative manner. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chair person, I thank the Mini ster for his

summary, and I thank him for his story in regard to a well remembered short-lived Prime Mini ster of Canada, and Mr. Chairperson, I hope that the same fate and the same fond memory will apply to the present Premier of this province very shortly. I think the Mini ster has given us this before but could he jus t refresh me in terms of the total expenditure, like this amount we have here for last year's flood control, I assume, is no where near the total, and if he could give us

summary of the totals that had to be expended during the crisis situation last year. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I don't have that material. Had my staff been up to snuff, of course, I would have had all that material. My understanding is that was in the order of 17 million. This material was available; I'm informed by staff that this money was flowed through the Department of Finance. The specific area of responsibility on which I have some detail on are the activities of the Manitoba Flood Disaster Assistance Board, of which Mr.

Elswood Boles is the Chairman, who have actually been involved in the repairing of buildings and the building of dikes. The overall costs incurred at the time, and that would be principally costs accrued to the provincial government and to muni cip al governments, cost-shared on the formula that I think members are familiar with. The first million dollars, I believe the province picks up the full cost; the 2 million to 3 million, the federal government clicks 4851

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 into 50 percent sharing; the 4 million mark, it moves up to 75 percent; and anything beyond the 5 million, it's a shareable item of 90 percent. It's a formula that has been in existence and has been used during the past decade. The only difference, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, is that the allowable levels of com pensation were adj usted up wards, not dr amatically but to com pensate for . in creased building costs and labour costs of the damage that occurred.

But to answer the honourable member's question, we did not experience and I think to a large extent of course, you have to recall tha t our major communiti es, St. Adolphe, Morris, St. Jean Baptiste, Letellier, Emerson, were kept dry. The ring dikes held and so the damage was limited to those isolated communities, isolated farmsteads, outside of the ring dike areas and also that Herculean effort was made to move, in a very short period of time, a very su bstantial amount of grain that would have added to the cost considerably.

In global terms, the flood costs to the senior governments, exclusive of this flood reduction program, was some 17 million. MA. McBAYDE: Mr . Chairperson, specifically in regard to the assistance program, a num ber of citizens in, I think, specific areas, were led to belie ve by the Mi nister's statement that they would be qua lifying for some type of program. My colleague, the Member for St. George, has raised this a number of times with the Min ister and, unfortuna tely, he had some constituents in and he has to take them on to a government agency this afternoon.

I wonder if the Min ister could give his side of that story again, until my colleague gets here to correct it. MA. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I believe that there is a genuine area of possible confusion here, inasmuch as that the compensation available to the citizen whose home was damaged or whose farmstead was damaged by flood waters was extended to those areas that were designed by an Order-in-Council, which included most of the flood-prone areas in the province of Manitoba. It included the area that the honourable member asked for on behalf of the Memb er for St. George.

Tha t is, that had that cons titu ent of the Ho no ur able Member for St. George or a constituent of the Honour able Member for Ste. Rose in the Ste. Rose du Lac area, or on the Boyne River, received property damage to his barn or to his home, it was available and he received assistance of up to 10 ,000 for structure, to repair that flood-damaged homesite or farmsite.

What he was not, however, and still is not, I regret to inform the members of the committee, eligible for, is the additional flood reduction program that offers him upwards to 10, 000 to move from that flood­ prone site, to raise his house to a level that water resources engin eers say places him beyond the 100 year flood damage line and/or to build a ring dyke around it. That flood reduction program is, at the moment, still restricted to the Red River Valley.

I have ind icated to the honourable members, and I have ind icated to the House, and I have ind icated outside that the Manitoba government's position has been to extend that additional program of flood reduction to these other areas as well, but is not available at this time to such constituents that the member refers to.

I believe the honourable member will agree with me that there is room, in the description of those two programs, the Flood Compensation Program, which merely puts the gyproc back on the walls that have been dam a ged or fixes up the siding of the first three or four feet of the barn or the building that has been subjected to water. That program was available to most Manitobans. There might have been isolated cases but I know that in cases along the Icelandic River, for instance, cases along the Ste. Rose du Lac rivers, the Boyne River, the Souris; we extended that program pretty well province-wide.

I believe our difference of opinion rose with the Honourable Member for St. George, with whom on occasion I have had a difference of opinion, is between these two programs. MA. McBAYDE: Mr. Chairp erson , the Mi nister ind icated it was his hope and his intention that the second program - I think your would call it the alleviation program as opposed to the assistance program - that the second program would apply to other areas.

Am I correct in assuming that the reason the Mi nis ter hasn 't then extended that program is because of federal unwillingn ess to cost­ share in that program or his colle ague s' unwilli ngness to have the province expand that program? MA. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I don't believe it would be quite right or fair to ind icate a lack of unwilling ness on the part of the federal authorities to share this program. It is probably more appropria te to have the commit tee members und erstand that a considerable amount of work has to be done to extend this program to other regions.

To begin with, the Water Resour ces people have to establish lines to which dikes are built, ring dikes are built, towards which levels, towards which units; housing units or grain pads have to be built to meet the criteria of a 100 year happenstance of flood. The second one that I also mentioned, and I suspe ct that these di scussions are currentl y under way in some of these municipalities, that there may be some rel uctance on the part of the mun icipalities to subject themselves to that kind of provincial control, if you like, of building permits within their area of responsibility.

We, and I believe all members on all sides of the House will concur with this, that if public dollars are to be used in this way, then there has to be every effort made to make sure that it is being done in accordance with � program that will ensure success and not allow indiscriminant building to take place at lower levels and then five years, or three years or 10 years from now, if another flood occurs on the Icelandic River or on the Boyne River at a certain stage, to be faced with the kind of repetitive repair programs that this program is designed to prevent.

When all these things come together - that is, the work of the Water Resources people, the Department of Natural Resources ... And we are asking, by the way, the local councils to indic ate by resolution from the council, so that something is on file for this government and/or for future governments, that a council has agreed to this kind of a limitation, then 4852

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 this government is prepared. I have received, and I reiterate, I have received indications from the federal officials and it's my understanding that the Minister of Finance did take occasion of a visit by the Honourable Mr. McEachen here in Winnip eg not so long ago to indicate to him that this was an area that Manitoba officials would be addr essi ng Otta wa people about for assistance and extension of what we believe to be an eminently successful program in the Red River Valley.

For those of you who don't have the opportunity to travel through the Red River Valley, let me assure you that there is a very substantial transfiguration taking place in the Red River Valley that, should another flood occur, God willing not for another few years, but if it does occur in, say, four or five years, there will be very little property damage in the Red River Valley.

The populated communitie s, those that I mentioned, are well protected under a proven diking system and what is happ ening now is tha t the isolated farmsites outside of the ring dike areas are, in a very substantial way, making applications for this pro gram. I can ind icate to you tha t at the moment we have some 5, 12 6 applications that have been received. We are well on the way in all facets of the program; that is the actual raising of homes, in some cases the moving of homes. In the Ste.

Jean Baptiste area, for in stanc e, and a numb er of communities, the community had available building lots in the community and farmers chose to use their 10, 000 grants available under this program - and they were within close proximity of the community - to move within the community of Ste. Jean. I think from every point of view, socially and services-wise, it is a commendable change. The farmers continues to farm his land and we can begin to look at a future flood much as the Egyptians did some 3,000 or 4,000 years ago, as a benevolent happening.

It refurbished the land with natural non­ chemical fertilizer that will continue to make the Red River Valley one of the fertile spots of this planet, Earth. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairperson, then to get to this idyllic state outside the Red River where we can depend upon flooding to assist rather than hurt our livelihood and our way of life, I wonder if the Minister could ind icate whether th ese figu res here contemplate the expansion or the extension of that program outside the Red River Valley, the alleviation program, or whether the Minister would have to come forward for supp lementary supply if he were to extend that to other areas? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mini ster. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, just while we are dealing with figures, allow me to correct one figure that I used when I indicated 17 million as being the global figure of flood costs last May. That is correct in the sense that that is the shareable figure that we use, shareable with Ottawa.

The actual costs are substantially higher, possibly closer to the order of 26 million, 28 million, because we do not and cannot get sharing of our own permanent Civil Service staff, who during the course of that month put in a great deal of work, very often on an around-the-clock, certainly around-the-week effort, and these kind of costs are not included in that figure. I think it does answer the question reasonably accurately in terms of what the actual bill is that we are sharing with Ottawa, 17 million.

The figure the honourable member asks for now is again - we have to, at best guesstimate, but the Chairman and the Board, of whom I have a great deal of confidence in, has not worked at this the first time around even though the gentleman has been at it for quite awhile, Mr . Elswood Bole and his committee, consisting of Monsieur Ayotte and Mr. Reimer.

They have indicated to me that an additional 4 million to 4.5 million - that is additional to the 8 million program that we are now engaged in and have agreement from the federal government - would be required to extend the program to those areas from which we have received appli cations and where we, by experience, know trouble areas or flood prone areas exist. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairperson, for those other areas where the council has given approval, and I am assuming from the Minister's earlier comments that he is wanting the local government to do some other things if he agrees to apply the program to the area, he probably wants them to have restrictions on where you can build and heights at which you can build before the program would apply there.

That is one reason they might be a little bit hesitant to go into the program, but if in fact there was a local gov ernment autho rity, a mun icipality or a local government district, or whatever type of authority it was, a rural municipality that was anxious, ready and willing to proceed, and there were a number of people that were within that area that were anxious, willing and ready to proceed, would the Minister then be able and willing to proceed or not? MR. ENNS: . Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is aware of how Cabine t and governments work.

I can indicate to the honourable member that I have received approval in principle from my government to en ter into negotiations with the federal government with respect to the expansion of this program to those areas that we are concerned about, as well as to instruct the mem bers of the Flood Disaster Assistance Board to make contact with the local governments in these areas again that we are conc erned about , to bring about the necessary conditions th at would enable me to proceed. Mr.

Chairman, I have no hesitation to indicate that I think th at the gov ernment of Manitoba has exp ressed its willingne ss to proce ed.

We believe, however, tha t if it was deemed to be fair and appropriate that some sharing of these costs were covered by the senior federal government in the case of the Red River Valley, where repetitive flooding has brought about this program, then surely that same formula or same criteria should be applied to a similar situation even though it involves obviously considerably less numb ers of people, but nonethel ess to the person that is getting flooded, maybe three out of the last ten years, his situation on an individual basis is as serious as anybody's in the Red River Valley.

I simply feel and the position of 4853

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 the government is that it is deserving of federal support. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairperson, just to make sure I got this clear then, the Minister would have to go back to Cabinet for supplementa ry supply and he would attem pt to negot ia te with Ottawa if the program were expanded . Would his chances of getting the suppl ementary supply, more money from his colleagues, be increased, I gu ess, if he did have that federal support as well, or federal agreement to enter into the program? MR. ENNS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the mem ber accurately describes the situation that now exists.

The other pieces would have to be in place that would then enable the provincial government to proceed with the processing of the forms. Perhaps the best indi cator of our in tent, however, Mr. Chairman, to the Honourable Member for The Pas, is that I have instructed the Manitoba Flood Disaster Assistance Board to accept applications from these areas and to ind icate to them by letter precisely where the matter stood.

I don't know how well that is being commun icated but, as a result of this, we have some 165 applications from these areas on file and one assumes that these are the kind of applications from people that are in a constant flood prone situation and that even while I can appreciate that their concerns are for more immediate action, I think the possibility that extension of some of these areas, and indeed approvals for some of the work being applied for might be possible, say, by early fall or the latter part of fall. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairperson, when you do have to go back to your Cabinet colleagues for supple ment ary supply, the cha nces of getting approval are much much less than if you have some funds somewhere in the system to cover the . . . so I hope that the Minister's optimism that they might be able to begin processing some of those things is warranted . Another question for the Minister, Mr.

Chairperson, relates to this program, to both the compensation program and the assistance program, and also I think the act ual flood fig hting, the im mediate emergency fighting itself as it relates to In di an Reserves, like what is the existing method of dealing with reserves in both the emergency situation and later in the compensation situation, and what role does the province play in that; what role does the federal authority play in that; and what role does the local Band play in that; also, Mr. Cha irperson, whether there has been any change in that program?

I'm assuming that this wouldn't be one area that was touched but there have been some programs, like the Critical Home Repair Program that applied to reserves before, tha t were cut out by this government because they were reserves, and some other programs, as well. I'm just wondering, what is exactly the situation and whether there has been any change in that situation sinc e the change in government. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, there has been no change from the past practice.· The province; under emergenc y conditions, provides imme di ate emergency assistance and relief in the transportation and in the looking after or the billeting of people, whether they are on reserves or not. We had of course two specific situations, one dealing with the Roseau Reserve and the other one I believe with the Peguis, and perhaps also the Fisher River Reserve, I'm not totally familiar, but thereafter the federal government does compensate the province 100 percent for reserve residents.

Any status India n or nativ e people living off the reserves are treated as are all other Ma ni tobans in the case of flood assistance and flood compensation. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairperson, I guess the Roseau Reserve would be the only one that lies within the area of the, not the assistance program but the alleviation program. Do they have their own alleviation program going on now with assistance from the federal government or are they involved in any way in the provincial program and you recover more costs from Ottawa, or are you aware how it is working right now? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, we have the Honourable Member for Emerson here, who probably is more aware of it than I am in terms of what is happening at the Roseau Indian Reserve. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. ALBERT DRIE DGER : Mr . Chairman, the reconstruction of the dikes along the villages and towns along the Red River is in progress right now and at the present tim e, this week, the reconstruction is taking place at the Roseau River Indian Reserve and it is my understanding that the program is the same as applies to the villages along the river. Am I right, Mr. Minister? MR. ENNS: That's right. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: I think it is probably my final question. I'm still curious about the cost recovery on that, as related to the reserve. Would tha t reconstruction of dikes . . . MR. ENNS: On reserve work, emergency work and our costs are fully recoverable from the federal authorities. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Chai rperson. MR. CHAIRMAN: Right, I must be right on today. MR. PARASIUK: This is a good day. It's a new day. A new day is dawning. -(I nterjection) That's right, I was starting to get worried.

I came in a bit late and I apolig ize for that and I just caught the tail end of the Minis ter's statement that they are trying to, in a sense, negotiate or get conc ur rence from municipalities, really as a quid pro quo for flood relief assistance, to have municipalities prevent people from building in flood prone areas, flood plain areas. I guess these areas are really dema rcated by the provincial government because it's the provincial 4854

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 government that does demarc ate which areas are flood prone. Is that a correct understa nding, because I just came in at the tail end of the Mi nister's statement? MR. ENNS: Yes, that's a corr ect general understanding except that perhaps in the question there's an assumption that isn't quite correct that the province, through the Water Resources Branch, has in all ins tances clearly dr awn boun da ries, demarcation lines of what constitutes a flood prone area.

That certainly is the case, again through tragic experience of the Red River Valley, where it's been much ma pp ed and much surveyed and Water Resource personnel can say if build to this level on this site, this provides you with that kind of protecti on. Some of that kind of spade work or ground work is being done right now by Water Resources people on some of the, I use the word "less er", rivers and streams, but nonetheless that cause to lesser num bers of individuals the same kind of anguish and difficulties during the times of flood. MR.

PARASIUK: Was any of the money that was spent last year, say the 5.3 million or the 17 million, or part of the 26 million, spent to in a sense try and protect people on Turnbull Drive from floodwaters or, after the flood, to help th em re habili ta te their houses? MR. ENNS: The people on Turnbull Drive, as any other citizens in the provi nce of Ma nitoba that experienced flood damage to their home, their property, were eligible to the normal grants, the maximum figure being 10 ,000, for the repair of their homes.

The people on Turnbull Drive, being residents of the Red River Valley which is a designa ted area where the second program, the Flood Reduction Program, was put into effect, collectively decided to use their 10 ,000 which other residents throughout the Red River Valley are currently in the process of using for the raising of their homes, for the building of ring di kes around their individual homes, or inde ed for the moving of their homes, such as I mentioned, farmsite homes from just outside the ring di ke commu nity of St. Jean Baptis te into the community itself.

They collectively, and I under stand some 23 home owners were involved in the Turnbull Drive area, sho wed a remarka ble de gr ee of unani mity I suppose. I und erstand there was an active citizens committee that promoted this, that could have applied on an individual basis to do several things. Had they chosen to, for instance, move out of Turnbull Drive, they could have applied that 10 ,000 towards the purcha se of a home or lot elsewhere and then moved their homes out of Turnbull Drive. They chose instead, Mr.

Chairman, to pool that money, which amounted to some 230,000, 23 x 10 , towards the construction of the Turnbull Drive dike. MR.

PARASIUK: I perhaps shouldn't single out the residents of Turnbull Drive for the point I want to make, but I frankly think the residents of Turnbull were incr ed ibl y stubborn in the first place, and incredibly stupid in the first place; I think that the city of Winnip eg was incredibly stupid in not stopping them from building there; and I think the province - I don't think it was this adminis tration at the time - was incredibly shortsighted and stupid at the time in allowing them to build there. Everyone knew it was flood plane land.

Sure, it was nice and scenic and provided for very nice, fancy houses being there that are very expensive. Many of them are architecturally designed homes; I thin k there's only one home designed and built on Turnbull Drive that really took into account the fact that people were telling them that it floods all the time, and that's one home that's built on stilts, that so far has not had flood waters go above the stilts.

But everyone told them, and every spring, because people are compassionate, and because the public, ultimately is compassionate, they end up providing general assistance from taxpayers' resources to provide assistance. We always have this drama of Turnbull Drive every year, and that's one of the reasons why I singled them out.

It's rather frustrating when you find mone y limited in other areas, or even money limited under this particular program to other areas, to people who might be farmers living in that particular area, and we find that they can't get enough money to provide for the protec tion to their farms, and you have people going and trying to find a ni ce, choice location overlooking the river, close to the river, everyone knowing that it's a type of Russian Roulette that you're playing, it's going to hit you within five years or seven years or nine years or ten years, and over the course of the last five or six years.

I think there must have been about three floods on Turnbull Drive, and there always is this great human drama and everyone charges down there and everyone feels sorry, and we have volunt eers going down there and pitching in to help. We have 230 ,000 being spent now which will do a lot to enhance those property values. Undoubtedly we must have spent at least 230 ,000 in the past, and I just think that possibly public authorities aren't being strong enough in dealing with people who are going to be building, or want to build on known flood plane areas.

I can apprecia te tha t certain areas aren't demarca ted, but for those areas tha t are dema rcated, I don't think it's enough to say, well yo u'r e going in there on your own warning, there are lot of signs that are posted on many private places saying, you trespass at your own risk. Well, the public isn't like that. Someone who has trespassed will be helped at a time of crisis, and yet I think it's unfair to the general taxpayer and it's unfair to a lot of other people who possibly would want to build on flood plane, and they say, no, I'm not going to.

And that's why I think you're not being strong enough with municip alities if you concur, we'll provide flood assistance, because if they don't concur, you're still going to provide flood assistance when the crunch is there. I wouldn't want to say durin g the height of emergency of a flood, no, we won't do it, because four years ago you wouldn't sign this agreement, or you wouldn't pass this resolution, you wouldn't do those types of things, and you wouldn't prevent these people from building there.

Of course, no one wants to do that, but I think at the same time, if you 'r e not getting volunt ary concurrence, and if you're still getting muni cipalities, letting people build on flood plane areas, because there are other flood 4855

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 plane areas cis well, and we don't know, we have some idea Of what the histor ical limits are, and I can appreciate - I think there was one flood where the waters stretched out to Transcona, so conceivably everyone shouldn't be living there, but people didn't know those things at that time. But now, I think we're getting much better at this, and we have a fairly good idea of what areas will flood. And it's not as if we have this tremendous scarcity of land in Manitoba where people can build.

We have some scarcity of rather scenic land tying into the rivers, and maybe that should be public preserve. There's nothing wrong with it being pu blic preserv ed, acce ssible to all. But of cou rse, what those indi viduals want is that they want to, in a sense, pr ivatize that river bank prop erty. It's a natural desire on their part.

But I think it's somewhat irresponsible of public authorities at the municipal and provincial level to allow that to happen and to continue, because those people aren't compl etely - the people who move in there, aren't held accountable for their actions, everyone moves in to help them, and I think it's proper that they should.

At the same time, I don't think we should be compo unding our errors by taking a fairly passive laissez-faire approach in this particular matter, because I think this is one where there probably would be very strong consensus throughout the province, that areas that are su bject to flooding, shouldn't be built upon. And I think the municipalities have enough power within what the province grants them as powers, and I think the province has enough power to prevent that from becoming a worse problem than it is right now.

I'm not saying we should move the houses out of Turnbull Drive, I guess the dike will probably be the solution, but it's just rather unfortunate that that situation developed in the first place, and I hate to see further ones develop. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. -pass; Resolved that there be granted to Her Ma jesty - the Memb er for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: I'm sorry, I wanted to raise a couple of other points on this. Maybe the Minister raised this in his introductory statement. Does the government expect to spend the entire 3 million budge ted this year, in this appropriation? I see 3 million. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that this 3 million is there as a guesstimate figur e for flood and emergency expenditure use to cover the balance of the 1979 flood costs. I am further advised that that figure likely will have to be revised considerably upward as a result of the other emergency costs that we've incu rred thus far in this summer. But the figure at the time the es tima tes were pr in ted didn' t perceive that. The answer to your question is yes, that was essentially the figure that was perceiv ed necessary to cover off the balance of the 1979 flood costs. MR.

PARASIUK: That leads into my next question, in that everyone was talking aout flood control when I walked Into the room, but I wanted to ask whether in fact this refers as well to the oppo site, namely the drought that we are experiencing right now, and the fact that really this appropriation covers flood control and emergency expenditures which relate to natural disasters.

I see firefighting as a natural dis aster - I don't know if it's covered under this appropriation - and I see certain expenditures related to the drought that conceivably could be in agriculture or could be dealt with here, and I'm wondering if the Minis ter could elaborate on this. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that the Minister of Finance has already ind icated at the time of his estimates, I assume I wasn't present, that in all likeliho od he may well be tabling a seco nd supplem entary estimates to take into account the expenditures that the province has incurred as a result of extremely active fire fighting and other emergency drought control works. The figur es involved here, in essence, cover off some of the kind of ongoing standard expenditur es of the Emergency Measures Organization usually related to flood costs, but obviously not always.

I would have to ask the indu lgence of the honourable member to ask that question more directly, perhaps, of the Minis ter of Finance. Very obviously, I think the kind of costs that have been incu rred and/or the sharing of those costs which are currently under negotition, in some cases, with the province of Ontario and, in other cases, with assistance being sought fr om the federal government, and obviously upwards to three or four departments inv olved in various dr ought pr ograms, pri ncipally the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Natural Resources.

It would be my assumption that there will be an effort made to draw those funds, those emergenc y­ type funds or expend itures that wer en't contemplated at the time of the printing of the estimates, under the Minister of Finance by way of supplem entary estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Ju st for my own personal clarification in terms of where this would fit into the estima tes review, would this be the appropriation, however, that the su pplement ary estimates would be brought in under? Would they relate to this particular appropriation? MR. ENNS: I'm being advised, Mr.

Chairman, that while the Mi nister of Finance, in introducing an additional set of supple mentary dollars or estimates, they in all likelihood would be appropriated to di fferent departments. For in stance, the costs directly inv olved with forest fir e prevention would find their home in the Department of Natural Resources. Programs dir ectly related and appropriately operated through the Department of Agriculture would be shown in the Department of Agriculture. Mr .

Chairman, the Honour able Member for Transcona knows me long enough and well enough that I'm not trying to be evasive in any way at this particular time. MR. PARASIUK: I'm not even trying to attack the Min ister or try and deba te with him on it, I'm just trying to find out where this will sort of fit together 4856

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 and what authority is used. I can appreciate the uncertainty that exists right now in terms of even trying to speculate as to what type of assistance could be provided. I do want to take this opportunity to put forward a suggestion that I think has been raised already but I think it's appropriate under this appropriation, to sugge st that ma yb e there should be some emergency funds put aside to ensure that, especially, farmers will be able to dra w from a fund to meet their mortgage payments.

These are payments on their land that they may in fact be not able to keep up with because of the drought. Now, some of them will have crop insu rance, but I know that probably something in the order of 40 percent of the farmers don't have crop insurance. We may run into a situation where these people will be very hard pressed.

We might be able to do something with respect to legislation but I don't know if anything like that has been dra fted whereby, in a sense, the payments for this year, if it is declared that type of an emergency, will be tacked onto the end of the mortgage and paid off one year later, with the inter est charges added to it. But there might be some way, in fact, of trying to forestall foreclosures that could in fact come about during the course of this year, especially if we continue to have these blue skies.

So we can proceed by legislation, or we could proceed - we might have to do both - to set up a special fund, and it would strike me that this might be an appropriate place, we have got a board already in pla ce, whereby people could apply to this board for short-term assistance to tide them through this particular year, in terms of making payments on their land and payments on their machin ery. I would think that ma ny farmers especially - yes, the farmer s - are heavily capitali zed and their debt payments must be pretty substantial.

I was just driving around last week and I could see some people who appeared to have disked under their first crop and they are taking another crack at it and some people are waiting for - I guess it's just about too late to wait, at present. I am looking over at Lloyd. This is probably the make or break week in terms of the late crops being put in. I think that this is one area where I think the government should be prepared to move, specifically to try and forestall foreclosu res, because people may have been farming for quite some time, or even more recent farmers will be in debt over their ears.

They are desperately struggling to try and survive and all you need is a few missed payments to put them under. I think legislation or a special fund certainly warrants consideration and I hope the government takes that under advisement. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, allow me simply to acknowledge and to apprecia te the comments made by the Member for Transcona. It indic ates, I think, a responsible concern for what indeed by the end of this week, and possibly by the middle of next week, can inde ed be a very serious situation.

I know the honourable member also appr eciates that members of the caucus of government are fully cogni zant of that situa tion. I bel ieve the Fi rst Min ister, on occasion, has ind icated a willingness or perhaps a necessity to do some of the things that the Ho nou rable Member for Tran scona jus t now mentioned, some time ago. At that time, I think it was perhaps earlier on in the session or earlier on in the Budget Speech, at which time, you know, we're dealing in days and weeks and of course as the days go along without rain, it becomes shorter and shorter.

I think that there is certainly a real possibili ty and a daily growing probability that some heretofore kind of action that came belatedly by governments in the '30s, we surely should be prepared and should be expressing our willingness to belay anxiety on the part of a heavily capitali zed farm operation or farm operator, that inde ed certain things will simply not be allowed to happen.

I welcome the support of a senior member from the Opposition that he expr essed just now, that should such action be taken by this government that we can look forward to support from the honour able members opposite when such measures, if need be, are introduced. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.-p ass. Resolved that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceeding 3 million for Flood Control and Emergency Expenditures-pass. Resolution 12 3, 1. -p ass - the Member for Transcona. MR.

PARASIUK: Can the Min ister ind icate - now that I think that the agreement has been signed, a settlement has been reached anyway - whether this will be the amount, or do we have any idea of what the exact amount would be? This is usually put in as an item but it's not usually the exact amount. The government should have an idea of what the exact amount of the salary increases will be. MR. ENNS: Based on the 9.5 percent settlement for the year 19 80-81, an early estimate of the additional requirements is some 20 million.

This initial allocation of 7.5 million will be made by the Department of Finance upon receipt of detailed requests from the line departments and then with the balance to provide in Janu ary-February when net requir ements can be determined more accurately. It is usually the period of time that we go through the exhaustive process of review of estimates. The further fig ur e, based on a 10.5 percent settlement for the year 198 1- 82, preli min ary estimates call for additional costs in 1981- 82 at some 25 million. MR.

PARASIUK: I guess this is not included in the sup plementary estimates brought in by the Minister of Finance when he brought in his Budget; this will be, I assume, passed by Special Warran t next January or February. I assume that's the case, and that that will be really adding some 20 million to the already budg eted deficit of 14 0 million. I see one of his staff shaking his head and maybe I can just explore this. I would assume, from what the Minis ter has said, that this would add 20 million or add a portion of that, probably something in the order of 10 million, to the deficit. 4857

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, we are taking one year at a time. We are talking about this year, 19 80-81, and the res olution we have under consideration is 7.5 million. Experience, and I'm told this ratio of figu res presented in the estimates at this time is one of some considerable longstanding, that there is a considerable readjustment that takes place within the course of the year.

For instance, to give you some ind ication of the situation a year ago, based on that 19 79 settlement, the prel imin ary est ima tes of additional dollars to be req uir ed were some 15 million but when you were asking this question last year we were looking at, to paraph rase your question, at 15 million additional to the then overall budget. In effect, the net additional requirement to comple te the year was some 2.5 million, which then totalled up with the 7.5 million that was allocated in 1979 printed estimates, 2.5 million was what the net request was with the final figures came in from the departments.

We estimate that it will be of the same order. Perhaps ins tead of 2 million or 5 million, it might be 4 million or 5 million. The settlement percentages are somewhat higher than they were in 19 78-79 but, again, we won't know that until the Department of Finance is in receipt of the final detailed requests from the various line departments. But based on previous years' histor y and experience in dealing with this amount, the advice that I am receiving is that this 7.5 million will be augmented by some and it's a guesstimate at this point - by between 4 million and 5 million. MR.

PARASIUK: Yes, that still will be an addition to the deficit, bringing it to something in the order of 14 5 million that we can, at this particular stage, foresee, excluding possibilities that may arise with respect to drought assistance and other things like that.

So conceivably we could have a very significant, in a sense, budge ted deficit, which would be larger than the 140 million that has been formerly budgeted for, without taking into account any short falls that may develop in the revenue situation of the province because of the drop in retail sales, which I am quite certain has already taken place as farmers anticipate a very tight year this fall. We conceivably could be into a very, very large deficit situation next year. Of course, a lot of that will depend on the weather, but cer tainl y at this stage it would app ear to be somewhat greater than 14 5 million.

MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. -p ass. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding 7,500,000 for General Salary Incr eases-pass. MR. ENNS: Thank you, gentlemen. MR. CHAIRMAN: Commit tee rise. SUP PL V - ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This committee will come to order. I would dir ect the honourable members' attention to Page 35 of the Main Es timates, Department of Economic Devel opment and Tourism. Resolution No. 47, Clause 1. Item (

d) Economic and Operations Researc h,

(1) Salaries-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures- pass; (d)­ pass; (

e) Man itoba Bur eau of Statistics - the Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr . Chairman, I think there were some que stions that we intended to ask under Admini stration. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the Honourable Member for Elmwood, on which item? MR. DOERN: I'm just not clear. Has Adminis tration been passed and we're now on Eco nomic and Operations Branch? -(In terjection)- I am asking the Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Admin istration has been passed. We're on Item (

d) Economic and Operations Research. That's (1 ), (2) and (d)- pa ss - the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr. Chairperson, in view of the fact that earlier this month the Min ister stated that a compl ete comput erized inv entory of the manufacturing capability of Manitoba firms will be conducted and ready for use this fall. Can the Mi nister explain to us just exactly what this will consist of and the manner in which it will be able to serve the needs of the Manitoba firms that he expects to be served by it? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, that particular program comes under the next item, Ma nitoba Bur eau of Statistics. MR. CHAIRMAN: (d)- pass. Item (

e) Ma ni toba Bu reau of Statistics, ( 1) Salaries- pass - the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. WESTBURY : The same qu es tion, Mr. Chairperson. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the inventory is basically called a sourcing program, which is taking inventory of all of the manufacturers in the province of Manitoba, and listing and computerizing all of the products that are manufactured in the province.

This sourcing program is also expanded to the agreement - and I might possibly be answering the Member for Brandon's question, which I said came under the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics before - between the Mini sters of Economic Development of the four western provinces to list and computer ize all of the major resource developments that are being carried on in western Canada, and being planne d for western Canada.

It is our intention, when we have the catalog ue of what is manufactu red in the province of Manitoba, to make it available to those people in Western Canada that are planning or involved in resource projects so that they will know what Ma nitoba man ufacturers are capable of producing. We will also, Mr. Chairman, be in a position, as I said, to advise the Manitoba manufacturers of tho se projects, and we. will also be in a position to advise 4858

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 the Manitoba manufactur ers as to what products will be req uir ed and in what qu antiti es and dollar volume. As I said, we have arranged the agreement and have had good co-operation from the other departments across western Canada in this. We have been co-operating with the other provinces as to some of the plans that may be going forward in the province of Manitoba, such as the potash and the CSP, the mining arrangement that has been made in the north, and then possibly what would be required as far as the transmission lin e is concerned to western Canada.

We feel that this particular sourcing program that we have un dertaken will be of benefit to Manitoba manufacturers and the Min isters across western Canada have pretty said that if something rightly falls within the parameter of our manufacturers and they don't make it, they wouldn't show any fav oritism other than their present purchasing programs but would certainly prefer that the materials, if possible, could be supplied throughout western Canada by western Canada manufacturers, if possible. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. -p ass - the Honour able Member for Brandon East. MR.

EVANS: I didn't catch a couple of earlier statements of the Ho nourab le Mi nis ter. Was he referring now to this reference on Page 13 of his addr ess last April 30th reaching a basic strategic agreement with the other western provinces, and I thought he suggested we were going to discuss that under Business Devel opment. At any rate, I gather tha t was his reference but I wasn't sure. Unfortunately, I was called to the phone for a long dis tance call and I mis sed the first introductory part of that statement. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, I did say that the ans wer under the Ma nitoba Bur eau of Statistics would be the answer the member was requesting last night when I said it was under another item. It is a bus iness development, but it is the program and I can answer the question for the honourable member right now, and I have outlined the program is being carried out by the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics and, as I said, that is the agreement that the Western Economic Dev elopment Minis ters came to when we were at the last meeting that was held in B.C. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, we are on the item of Economic and Operations Research and I am wondering whether the Mi nis ter has asked this particular branch or division to prepare something MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Just to correct the situation, we are on Item (

e) Manitoba Bureau of Statistics. The honourable member made mention that we were on Item (

d) Economic and Operations Resear ch. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Just on that point, my colleague, who is the chief spokesman, was making a phone call and I attempted to draw to your attention that - I thought at the time that we were on (d)(2) - we wanted to make some comments there, and it is my understanding that wasn't passed. That item sort of started to roll, I agree, but I believe that it would only be fair to allow the member, who came just around that point into the Chamber, to make some remarks under Item (

d) and then to go on to Item (e). I don't think it is going to unduly prolong this Comm ittee in so doing. MR. CHAIRMAN: To set the record straight, Item (

d) has been passed, but I am a servant of this Comm ittee and if it is by unanimous consent I think that we could go back to Item (d), but I think the regular procedure is that once we pass an item we go on to the next item. I think that we have got to have some sort of reg ulations as to ho w the Comm ittee is regulated. If the Honourable Mini ster would agree, we can go back to Item (

d) under these particular circu mstances, but it is a little embarrassing; I try to follow the rules and now we are asked to change the rules. The Honourable Mini ster. MR. JOHNS TON: Mr. Chairm an, I have no objec tion. I am quite prepar ed to answer any questions on my department, but I would request that we try to follow the rules, if we want to go back to Item (d). But I would recall that the Member for Fort Rouge got up and asked a question on Item (

d) and I said that is properly done under the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics and I sat down, and we passed Item (

d) and we got on to the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics. But if the member has a specific question, I have no objection of answering it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Might I just say that Item (

d) is passed; the Honourable Min ister will answer any questions on Item (d), but rather than go back to an item that is already passed, we will just allow the questions. The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't have any gr eat problem because I suppose we could almost ask some of these questions under some of the other items or back on the Minister's Salary; even the Bureau of Statistics here, it ties into this.

My question was related to actually an analysis of Manitoba's weaknesses and strengths, and perhaps the evolution or the involvement of an ind ustrial de velopment plan, examination of imp ort replacement - now this has been talked of and has been done in the past perhaps more on a hit and miss basis, and possibly the Bur eau of Statistics would be involved in this as well. My question relates to the possi bility of carrying out some sort of a review of Manitoba's weaknesses and strengths and to evolve some type of ind ustria l development strategy.

I recall back some years when the former Memb er for River Heights, Mr. Spivak, was the Min ister of In du stry and Co mmer ce, the TED Repo rt was produced, the Targets for Economic Dev elopment. While many people may have had criticisms of those targets and methods suggested to achieve them, nevertheless it did at least provide some basis, some objectives one might look toward, and indeed many of those tar gets were met, Mr. Chair man, 4859

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 interest ingly enough. Some haven't been, but some have. Then we had, under our admin istra tion, not in this particular department, but there was a preparation of guidelines for the 1970s. I am wondering whether there is any - if the Mi nister doesn't want to answer this now, we can do it under Salary perhaps, or under whatever is the appropriate item � whether ther e is some preparation of an indus trial development plan, setting out outlines and so on.

There was reference made to it in his speech, the same speech we were just talking about regarding the agreement with the other western provinces, but the deliv ery of the speech of April 30th, I understand, was to outline some elements of an approach and, in fact, at the very be ginning makes reference to developing an effective stra tegy for economic growt h, and reference is made to some policy changes and the like.

It is one thing to enumerate some polic y changes and so on; it is another matter to outline a comprehensiv e plan, some statistics showing the targets and data showing where we have higher levels of productivity; where the greatest potential lies, and so on; what goods we are now importing to Manitoba that might be replaced by goods that may be manufactured in Manitoba, there is a possibility of being produc ed in Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the particular group that is referred to under

Section (

d) have not basically worked on a strategy program, their basic work is to provide in formation to the ma rket development officers of ind ustry studies for that particular group. They do studies such as contacting members of ind ustry to identify the size and trends of market, the structure, the number of firms and particular busi nesses, competition and the constraints on an indus try, supplies and shortages, etc. They also do research for people who want to possibly expand into a new market, and they do all kinds of that particular type of research for industry in the province.

They get into very complex things when they do research on tariffs, transportation costs, and in some projects they get into very detailed generation of the basic data as well as anal yses for commercial developments within the communities that is being worked on at all times. They would probably have supplied some data for the research for the economic strategy.

The economic strategy was annou nced last year as a matter of fact It was presented in a very small basic form and it is still in the proc ess of being set forth for the 19 80s, but we id entified the pa rticular markets that the province should be working at or the indus try in the province should be working at. Out of those six markets we deve lope d , Mr. Chairman, five of them have shown a considerable in crease in 1980 over 19 79, and they showed a considerable incr ease in 19 79 over 19 80. This particular group spent - distribution of their time was working for the executive with research and analysis.

It was 21 percent program development and technical services for indus try, and 13 percent busine ss development, which they have done for ind ustry when they have been requested; market development for indus tries and small enterprise devel opment, and the timing and tha t was 21 percent of their . time, 13 percent of their time, 18 percent, 12 percent, and 36 percent. They worked on 12 0 projects this year as a matter of fact, Mr . Chairman. MR. EVANS: I take it that there is no preparation of some sort of comprehensive industrial strategy.

By that I don't mean an outline of desires and intentions and so on, I mean somet hing mu ch mor e comprehensive and with a lot of statistics, a lot of data, where you try to more or less precisely qua ntify pos sibili ties for expansion in ind ustry sectors. I gather the answer is no, there isn't such a plan in process. MR. JO HNSTON: The answer is not no, Mr . Chairman. I told the honourable gentleman that we had a strategy of the particular ind ustries that we felt could be expanded in the province of Manitoba, and we also have the department working with people who want to try to expand their business.

We also are looking towards import and replacements. Those particular subje cts that the honourable member is bringing up are sort of an automatic ongoing process within the department. We very often have the occasion to conta ct companies and suggest to them that this might be a product that could be made here, because there is a market, but we have to do the marketing analysis and all of that type of thing before we can do that. MR.

EVANS: Looking at the Mi nister's speech, Page 5, on industrial strategy, I am quoting, "B ut we do know that throughout our man ufac turing ind ustries in Manitoba, including our key growth sectors and including the well-run and sound ly-based enterp rises in such other sectors as apparel, furniture, leisure products, pl astic and mi neral developments, Manitoba's growth overall, whether it is expressed in terms of growth to manufac turing employment, growth in investment, or gr owth in man ufactured shipments, was sign ificantly above the national averag e." There is reference here to apparel, furniture, and leisure products, plastics and mineral products.

It seems that these are identified as growth sectors, and my question is: What is the basis of identifying them as growth sectors? I know that it's reference to sales and so on, but it seems to me that furniture, for example, would not be a growth sector right now because there has been a diminu tion of household formation in Manitoba, and inde ed in some other parts of Canada. It may be tha t ther e is an expansion of export markets for furniture. Maybe the Mi nister can enlighten us on that.

But why would furniture be consider ed to be a growth sector, or identified as an area that has a lot of potential, and also leisure products? Mind you , that's a large category, it's a large classificat ion, but surely there is one area of leisure products that is failing today in Manitoba, and that is campers, vans, motor homes and the like, and we have some discussion in the qu estion period on the problem tha t Edson Ind ustries is having in the Rivers Indus trial base where they have laid off many, many people and, as the Min ister has acknowledged, because of the lack 4860

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 of sales. I wonder why therefore, how you could consider that category as a possible growth sector. Simila rly, with apparrel, purcha se of clothing seems to me to have some relationship with the gr owth of your popula tion and with gr owth of incomes. It seems to me, un less there is a great incr ease in export sales, that I can't see that that is necessarily a growth sector. It has been, the last couple of years, because of the quo tas. Maybe the quotas on foreign imports are still having that effect of, in effect, protecting the apparel ind ustry, or the garment ind ustry.

At any rate, my question then is, what is the bases? Can the Minister elaborate on the reasons for identifying these sectors to be among the key, to relate to the key growth sectors? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I would only say to the honourable member that I can give him the reasons for identifying those. It really should come under busi ness development or small enterprise development at this discussion. If the member is going to be analyzing a speech I made on April 30th, rather than my estimates, maybe we should get all my speeches down. I have answered the question on (

d) as to the work that this particular department does, and I am perfectly willing to di scuss the reasons why we know that those industries are potential growth ind ustries. MR. EVANS: Perhaps we can discuss this later as well, but it seems to me that it's just not good enough to look at a couple of figur es and then all of a sudden come to the conclusion that these are key growth sectors. I would have thought the Economics and Operations Research staff of the department could provide some solid basis, solid reason ing for identifying growth sectors.

At any rate, going on to the Bureau of Statistics, it seems'to me that the Min ister referred yesterday to this organization being available to all members of the pu blic and he would invite members of the Legislature to utilize the services of the Bur eau of Statistics, if I heard him properly. I'm wondering whether the Minister would consider making the, I think it's a quarterly, report of the Bureau of Statics available to each member of the Legislature, as a service.

I know there is a cost involved in producing these, but I think there is some advantage, as well, in making gov ernme nt documents, particularly key pu blications such as this one, which has a lot of basic information, making them available to the members of the Legislature, or at least those who are inter ested in that type of information. You can obtain it, I know, through the library and I suppose you can say, well you can pay a subscription fee and so on, that can be done I guess, but I'm wondering whether in this way, the Minister could have more use made of the bureau.

It seems to me that it's an agency, like the library, that could be utilized more fully by the members of the Legislature. There is a lot of information there for members on both sides of the House, Mr. Chairman. I know they have an excellent staff. They may have been reduced in size; I see the number of dollars for salaries has been reduced, so I take it there has been a cut in staffing of the bureau, but nevertheless it's there, it has a service to provide, and perhaps in this way we could get more members utilizing the services of the bureau. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, it can be made available to the honourable member. His caucus does receive a copy. I might say that the NDP caucus has been paying for it, but I will give the member a commitment that I will take a look into that. But the paid subscriptions to the Manitoba Statistical Review incr eased to 18 6 from 95, and the business subscriptions rose from 37 to 94 during the period of 1979-80. The Bureau of Statistics is a department of government, which happens to come under my Ministry, that is available and works for all departments of government while they are requesting information.

The Bureau of Statistics, as you know, works sort of at arm's length so that they will not have any too much control as to the operation because the statistics have to be, not only accurate, but they have to be statistics that are not controlled by anybody. I would only say, and I said the member is welcome to contact the Bureau of Statistics to ask about specific figures, and I welcome it.

I wouldn't ex pect tha t the Bu reau of Statis tics would be supplying any personal information about companies or things that shouldn't be presented , but I have no concern there because I think they work under specific regulations and they would adhere to them. MR. EVANS: I wonder if the Mini ster could advise whether he sees this bureau as fulfilling a role of eliminating dupli cation in statistical services within the government.

I think back, at the federal level, where the federal government - I guess this is back around the time of the first world war - decided that they would co-ordinate the collection, tabulation and dissemination of statistics in one agency and hopefully do it on a more economical basis this way, and in a way that it's more available to the general public.

When this particular bu reau was established, when the legislation was brought in, it was the hope, it was a long-run hope, a long-range objective that ulti mately the bur eau could provide for some central ized collection, tabulation and dissemination of information, and I don't know whether that has really come about. In fact, it seems to me, the reverse has happened.

We made one attempt, as I recall, to bring the credit union statistics in to the Bur eau of Statistic s operation, as one step in that direction, and I belie ve that if data were tabula ted by the bureau, it's a central agency, it's more access ible to the general public.

They have certain expertise in statistics collection and it seemed to me that you went backwards when the credit union statistics were taken away from the bureau, and I stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that they were moved out of here back to the Department of Co-op Dev elopment and that, to me, is a reversal of the intention of having this particular organiza tion, and it seems to me that we are going backwards. If we want to save money in the collection of statistics and the tabulation of data, it seems to me it can be do ne by this centrali za tio n , through specializa tion.

I think it's a well known principle that specialization can reduce costs and, Mr. Chairman, there are many departments that continue to col lect statistic s on their own and di ssemi nate them 4861

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 separately, and I would submit, Mr. Chairman, that data is not as available to the public because it is disfused, because there are so many departments involved and people are just not as aware as they could be of that information being collected and available for the public use. For example, the Department of Health has, I believe, it's not shown in the estimates, but I believe the Department of Health, if I had a phone book here, has a large research group which includes a fairly large statistics operation.

Would it not make sense to look into the possibility of taking that operation and having that work done in the Bur eau of Statistics? As the Minister said, the Bureau hasn't any axe to grind, or he inferred that. They have an arm's length operation, which is what was intended and which is what should be, and they would have no vested interest in these statistics but to produce reliable data and make it available for the public and for other go vernment departments so that there be the widest use of the data.

It seems to me that there is something wrong in government admin istration when a lot of money is spent on collecting data, tabulating it, and then not having it utilized, or to be utilized by a very, very small group. When the government decided to take the credit union statistics out of this bureau and put it back in the Department of Co-op Dev elopment, I say the government was not showing prudent fiscal management. I say that we can, in the long run, have more information for lower costs and more usable information by centralization in the bureau, just as has occurred in the federal scene. Stats.

Canada over the years, data that had been collected by different departments, External Trade Department or In dustry - Trade and Commerce, or whatever it was called then - Trade and Comm erce, Department of Labour, Department of Health and so on, all this data, all the statistics over the years has been centra lized into what was called the Dominion Bur eau of Statistics and what is now referred to as Statistics Canada. But I submit, Mr.

Chairman, because of that move, Canadians have more access to valuable information than they would have had otherwise; than they would have had it was dis s emina ted throughout the departments. This way we know that there's a central source and I think Canada has something to be proud of. We have one of the finest statistical organizations in the country.

It seems to me that the Mi nis ter would do well to look at the various departments; to have a study of the various departments and see what could usefully, sensibly and practicall y be br ought into this ope rati on, because I' m thinking of specialization in the area of collection, the area of compilation and a central area, a central point for dissemination of informa tion. I think you should look at the Department of Agriculture, for example, and see the statistics that they collect and make available.

I think there are other departments, as well, that the Minister and his staff might want to look at, Education possibly, Departments of Mines. They put out statistics on oil production, oil wells in use, oil wells not in use. They put out other information on mineral production. Again, who knows where to get that information? If there was a central point , namely the Bureau of Statistics, then I think there'd be more use made of that information, more reason to colle ct it. Why collect it if you don't use it? Similarly there may be data collected in the Department of Labour and Ma npower.

I know there's information collected by Muni cipal Affairs, and so on. There may be some reasons for not mo ving a particular statisti cal collection operation. On the other hand, I think it's deserving of inqu iry by the Min ister and his advisors and it's possible, as I said, that we may bring about an economy here; that we may bring about a reduction in the costs involved because I daresay if you went around the departments and tabulated the amount of money spent on collection of statistics in various ways, that it would come to a fair sum of money.

Another question I have of the Mini ster in this respect, is there a committee at least functioning of various departments, various representatives of the departments involved in statistical collection, at least helping to co-ordinate or making sure that there isn't duplication or over lapping? Is there at least a central co-ordinating commi ttee involving the Bureau of Statistics and other statistical gathering groups as they are spread througho ut the government administration? MR. JOHNSTON: To answer the last question first, yes, there is a commi ttee. The next meeting, I'm informed, is June 26th.

It's called the Data Service Planning Committee and there's 34 people on it repres enting all di fferent de partments in the government. The role of the Bur eau of Statistics, Mr. Chairman, is a service agency providing and developing the data for all government departments. The analysis of the da ta is the respons ib ility of the indi vidual department. The member says that there are people gathering statistics in all departments; that's very corr ect.

We col lect da ta in the Depar tment of Economic Dev elopment under the Economic and Opera tions Bran ch, much of it sup plied by the Department of the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, which we analyse ourselves. We have been very careful not to have dupli cation because of the commi ttee, but if you were to set up a Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, as the member is suggesting, we would have a complete duplication probably of the federal system. The Manitoba Bur eau of Statistics gathers statistics from many, many sources and suppl ies them to the departments.

Under that, they've been doing an inventory of adminis tr ative records. They have in de xes of statistical data that's available to all departments. They'll be doing surveys and advisory support for the Regulation Review Commit tee of the Executive Council. As we mentioned, we are doing a lot of work to look at the different regulations within the go vernment to see if ther e are some that are overlapping or if there are some that we could cut down on.

But to mention the Co-op situation, it was turned back to them but the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics supplies them a lot of information on request and they do they analyzation themselves and put it together as they see fit. We are very careful that we don't have too much dupli cation but we find, and it's fairly obvious, that the departments of government don't all req uir e the same information and the 4862

Tuesday, 17 June, 1980 Bureau of Statistics supplies the information they require to them. MR. EVANS: I think the Mini ster misses the point. I'm not talking about the analysis of the data. I'm not talking about that. Sure, every department will do its or should do its own analysis.

I'm talking about spe cialization of statistical tabulation, stat istical surveys, collection, tabulation of data, and there's no qu estion that there are various parts of the government admin istration where this goes on and I'm saying it's a worthy exercise, in my view, to look at this and see whether there can be some saving for the taxpayer. I think there is still no explanation as to why you tu rned the cr edit un ion survey back to the Department of Co-op Development. There is no adeq ua te explanation for that. Of course the Department of Co-op Development can and should do their own analyses and so on.

I'm talking about the gathering of the information, the tabulation of the information, and the di ssem ination of the information. I'm not suggesting that the Department of Co-operative Development hasn't got fine people that can do such work. I'm talking about trying to centralize that function, the gathering of statistics. I'm no t sugge sting for one moment th at you dup licate what Statistics Canada does, no way. In fact , we should be in a position to have less duplication because of this organization. In fact, we have greater access to Slats.

Canada data because of this organization, because under the legislation of the bu reau there are secrecy pr ovisions and, because of th ese secrecy provisions, the Stats. Canada organization can make confiden