Manitoba Hansard — 2 December 2004 (Sitting 9B, 38th Legislature, 3rd Session)

38-3-9b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LVI No. 9B - 1:30 p.m., Thursday, December 2, 2004

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon.

Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

343 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, December 2, 2004 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Pension Benefits Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: Pension benefits for thousands of Manitoba health care workers are being cut because the government has refused to support the front-line health care workers in their desire to maintain their existing Healthcare Employees' Pension Plan (HEPP).

The government is doubling the early retirement penalty to 6 percent a year from 3 percent. There will be no cost-of-living benefits for retirees in the foreseeable future, which means that inflation will erode retirees' pension cheques over time. The government's refusal to support the existing pension plan will have a negative impact on hundreds of front line health care workers. The government is demonstrating a lack of respect for front-line health care workers by its decision to allow administrative costs in the regional health authorities to skyrocket by millions of dollars.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the provincial government to consider redirecting administrative cost savings to front-line health care workers. To request the provincial government to treat front-line health care workers with the respect they deserve, and to consider supporting the health care employees' pension plan by not cutting pension benefits. Signed by Maria Richardson, Dayna Ploog, Beverley Allard and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. The honourable Member for Morris.

MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Inkster, on– I had recognized the honourable Member for Morris (Mrs. Taillieu), bu t I heard the honourable member say he was up on privilege. So I will hear his privilege and then I will go back to the honourable Member for Morris. The honourable Member for Inkster, on the matter of privilege. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I truly do believe it is a matter which this Chamber needs to be made aware of. I think it is a very important matter. It happened earlier today in the legislative committee, in Room 255 or is it 254.

I believe this is the first opportunity, obviously, that I have had to raise the issue with this House in the sense that the committee adjourned at twelve o'clock, and we have now adjourned the Chamber, or I should not say adjourned, we are now reconvened inside the Chamber. So it is the first opportunity to raise the issue. In terms of the prima facie case, Mr.

Speaker, I would argue that it is critically important that this Legislative Assembly recognize the importance of four what are supposed to be truly independent offices, the office of Elections Manitoba, the provin- cial auditor's office, the Ombudsman's office and the Child Advocacy office. Those offices report to this Legislative Chamber through you, Mr. Speaker. I think that it is important, it is absolutely imperative that when things require change, as we see within the

344 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 2, 2004 advocacy office, there is going to be a need to fill a position and that means there is going to be a need to have some sort of a search, if you like, committee. We have heard on numerous occasions from the Premier (Mr.

Doer), whethe r it is in Throne Speech or just comments to members of the media, of the importance of all parties working together in order to accomplish certain things; whether it was on smoking, we have the Healthy Child task force, we have had the Liberal Party be present in terms of making a presentation in Ottawa in an all-party type of format. * (13:35) Well, Mr. Speaker, what happened earlier today was that I had raised the issue in committee as to we believe that the Child Advocacy position should have a representative from all parties inside this Chamber.

In particular the concern was that the Child Advocacy office reports to this Chamber and, as such, all of us should have some ability to be able to participate in the process. I talked about myself and the Leader of the Manitoba Liberal Party. I spent some time in explaining my position in detail, and I very much appreciate the fact that the official opposition did recognize that we do have the right to be able to be a participant in this.

What surprised me was the fact that the government of the day, for whatever reasons, did not feel that it would be appropriate to have either myself or the Leader of the Manitoba Liberal Party involved in this process. Mr. Speaker, I initially had approached it by suggesting that all members have to be afforded the opportunity to participate in some capacity. When I said "some capacity," ultimately, if we could not be a voting member, an observer, it is something which we would have entertained.

But fundamentally, I do believe that we should be ab le to be a full participant in this because like Elections Manitoba, the Auditor's office and the Ombudsman's office, these are truly independent offices of this Legislature. What I witnessed this morning was the govern- ment of the day intentionally trying to prevent myself and the Leader of the Manitoba Liberal Party from being able to be full participants. In fact, Mr. Speaker, there were three motions that were moved.

The first motion was moved by the member from River East, in recognizing that we need to depoliti- cize the Child Advocacy office to the degree to which representatives from all three parties should participate. Even though I could not vote, I thought it was a motion that was worthwhile in terms of voting for, and I indicated that. The government of the day quickly voted it down. Then they brought forward their own motion, and that motion excluded the Liberal Party inside this Chamber.

I think there is a contradiction in terms of you cannot say it is okay for the Liberals to participate in this and do this cherry-picking, when in reality, Mr. Speaker, this is a critical office. We all care deeply about the childr en of our province. No political party owns the issue of wanting to help our children, and that is why we have a child advocacy group or office that reports to this Chamber as opposed to directly to the government of the day. We all have shared responsibility.

We all need to be able to feel that we are a part of ensuring that the hiring of this individual is, in fact, in the best interests of our children. The party politics should be set aside for this. In committee, right after voting down the member from River East's motion, they then moved the motion saying that the Liberals do not have a role. Fortunately, there was an amendment that was moved to the government's amendment that would again have allowed us to have representation on that committee.

What I see is that there are at least two parties inside this Chamber that are prepared to take a more apolitical approach in doing what is right in terms of the Child Advocacy office. What I do not understand is why the government of the day does not recognize that issue. The merits stand on their own. If I did not raise this issue as a matter of privilege, I suspect that the likelihood of the government being successful at keeping Liberal participation on that committee will likely be successful because they have a majority. I believe that is not in the best interests of Manitobans.

I genuinely believe that you have offices that are supposed to be independent of the government of the day, and the New Democratic Party needs to respect that. Those offices being: the child advocacy office, the Ombudsman's office, Elections Manitoba and the provincial auditor's office. * (13:40) So I ask, Mr. Speaker, that this matter be addressed before the committee determines to meet

December 2, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 345 next. I understand that I will be provided the opportunity when it does meet next to continue on the discussion that I was having prior to its adjourn- ment today. My concern is that I think that people need to be made aware that the Child Advocacy office is not there to be politically manipulated, and we are not going to stand aside and let this government put at danger the risk of that very important office. Having said that, I would move THAT this matter be re ferred to the Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs and be reported back to this House.

I would move, seconded by the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard). Mr. Speaker: Before recognizing any other members to speak, I would remind the House that contributions at this time by honourable members are to be limited strictly to relevant comments as to whether the alleged matter of privilege has been raised at the earliest opportunity and whether a prima facie case has been established. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I know the independent members of this House–because that is what they are, Mr.

Speaker, they are not a political party in this House under the rules–are certainly eager to get up on matters of privilege that relate to procedural issues. Mr. Speaker, I think, quite frankly, it is an unfortunate abuse of the rules and the practice and the role of matters of privilege that he got up today. There is a standing committee that began meeting today. It is before a committee of the House. There is a matter that is being debated in committee. It is going to come back in the next few days to deal with this issue.

On the matter as to whether it is a prima facie case, the member is somehow asserting that now the two independent members have a right to sit on hiring committees. There is no such right, but now, Mr. Speaker, I will say this. The government came to the committee and proposed, just for explanation, came and proposed a three-person hiring subcom- mittee of the Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs as a way to deal with the matter and based on the distribution of seats in the House, which has been practised in the past. Then the Member for I nkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) said into the microphone that he would like to participate, but he is not asking for a vote. He is not asking for a decision-making role. So what we responded with was an offer that we could discuss with them, an offer to participate in discussion on the hiring at the committee level. That was put on the record. It is in the Hansard. So we made an offer to them to participate, because he said he did not want a vote but he wanted to participate. So, we said, fine, they can take

part in the discussions. We will have some further dialogue about how that can happen in what will have to be an in-camera meeting of the committee when the report from the hiring group comes back. Then he changed his mind, Mr. Speaker, and he had support from members opposite. He changed his mind this morning, and then he says now he wants a vote. Well, he started the meeting by saying he did not want a vote. Now he wants a vote. Mr. Speaker, then he gets up on a matter of privilege. Well, the matter is before the committee– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

A matter of privilege is a very, very serious matter and all honourable members rightfully expect me to make a ruling, and I need to hear every word that is spoken to the matter of privilege. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, it is not a matter of privilege in our view, but ju st on the equities of the thing, we are prepared to consider that. The committee rose at noon. He has now asked for a role, and the opposition, the official opposition, the political party in this House, supports that. We are open to that suggestion. We are open to considering that.

We will look at the issue, the composition of that hiring committee, but these are matters that are ongoing before a committee. That is properly where they should be, and we are open to having some role. That is what members feel should happen. Fine. But that was not his position when he went into committee, and we responded to his initial position. We will respond to a second position as well. * (13:45) Mrs. Bonnie Mitche lson (River East): Mr. Speaker, if there is any ab use, the abuse is by the

346 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 2, 2004 governing party, who acted very much like dictators this morning at committee. My understanding was that we lived in a democratic country with a democratic process. I clearly heard the Member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale), in his opening comments, indicate that the process for the selection of the Child Advocate and the Ombudsman would be very much like the process and the other all-party committees, like the Healthy Living Task Force that is taking place right now and was announced by the Premier (Mr.

Doer), and in fact, the Premier, at that time, included all three political parties in that all-party task force. Well, then, we see a government indicating that one of those parties, that the Premier calls all-parties in this Legislature, was excluded from the process of the selection of a new Child Advocate. We, on this side of the House do not agree with the direction that the government is taking. We have now a process that the government is indicating has to be dealt with immediately because there is some pressure to get the Child Advocate and the Ombudsman in place.

If it was an urgent process today, why was it not urgent, or why was the committee not called two months ago? We did not have to wait for the opening of the Legislature. In typical fashion, by lazy socialists, who have not been in session since– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I am just reminding the House that a matter of privilege is very serious, and I need to hear all the words that are spoken pertaining to the privilege. Mrs. Mitchelson: This Legislature has not sat since the middle of June, Mr. Speaker.

This Legislature has the ability to call committees even if the Legislature is not sitting. This committee could have been called a month ago, two months ago, if it was such a pressing issue, but they waited until the eleventh hour and then called the committee and indicate that we have to move ahead with this today because it is so urgent and if we do not do it today, we are not going to have an Ombudsman or a Child Advocate in place. Mr.

Speaker, again, this just shows the heavy hand of this government that wants to dictate to the Legislature on their agenda rather than trying to serve the people of Manitoba in the most appropriate process. That would have been to have this issue dealt with months ago. There is absolutely no reason why all parties in this Legislature should not be afforded the respect to sit on the selection committee for these independent positions, just as they have been selected to sit on all-party committees that this government has put in place. I would like to hear the Premier's (Mr.

Doer) rationale or reasoning for excluding the Liberals in this process while including them with open arms in every other all-party process that has been under- taken under his watch in this Legislature. Mr. Speaker: Order. I think I have probably heard sufficient argument. If the honourable member is rising because he feels that there is some point that has not been brought up, I will recognize the honourable member. * (13:50) Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I do bring new information to the discussion.

I was willing to yield to the Premier if he was going to stand up and answer the question from the member from River East, and I note that he did not. But, on new information, I do rise to support the matter of privilege that was brought forward by the Member for Inkster (Lamoureux ). I know that this is a sensitive issue for the members opposite, and it should be. It is a serious matter, as you say, Mr. Speaker, and we know that there are two cases that need to be set out to ensure that a prima facie case of privilege has been met and that a breach of privilege has happened.

Certainly, on the first case, I do not think, there will be any dispute, that the Member for Inkster raised this issue at the first possible moment. I think, on the second issue about a matter of privilege, whether or not his ability as a member in House has been somehow impeded to do his job, I think that was the case. This is a very unique situation, Mr. Speaker, that needs to be drawn to your attention because we are talking about independent officers of the Legislature. This is not like any other process, though clearly the Member for Burrows (Mr.

Martindale) did extend the offer to have it as an all-party committee. This is a unique situatio n where these officers, in particular the Child Advocate's office and in parti- cular the Ombudsman, will be acting on behalf of all members of this Legislature. They are not appointed

December 2, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 347 to serve the government, and they are not appointed to serve the opposition and they are not appointed to serve the members of the Liberal Party. They are elected, or appointed, hired, Mr. Speaker, to act for all members of the Legislature. I think that is a very critical point that was missed this morning by members of the government on the committee. This is unique for that particular reason because of the independence of the role, the important role.

We have seen in this Legislature over the last month and beyond the critical role that independent officers like the Auditor General play in terms of shedding light on scandals like the NDP Hydra House scandal. Clearly, now as we are going ahead and hiring officers like the Child Advocate, and we know that there has been a bit of a scathing report that has come out of the Child Advocate's office, it is important that all members who these people will serve have input and equal input. I would say in conclusion, Mr.

Speaker, that today we all wear orange ribbons because we are here to support the democratic right and democracy in the Ukraine, and this is in itself a small affront to democracy. I certainly think that, on this day of all days, the Premier should stand up and say today we will defend democracy and today we will do the right hing. t Mr. Leonard Derkach (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I rise with some reluctance because if my independent members would only get out there and elect more of their members to the Chamber where they can be recognized as a party, then we would not have this debate.

Having said that, let us just say that the motion that was brought forward to include the independent members, i.e., the Liberal members in this House, was to show some, I guess, goodwill in allowing all members of this Legislature to have representation on the hiring of an independent officer. Yes, it is a departure from what we traditionally do, because I believe that when the independent officers were hired in the former administration, or in the previous time, there was indeed a presence of the Liberal Party on that committee as well.

So it was only to reflect that this is an independent office, and that there is a reason for all parties and all members of this Legislature to be represented. I do not think it takes away from the committee's authority or the subcommittee's hiring ability. It only means that we add to the complement to allow for the assurance that an independent officer, who is going to be hired, is truly a hiring and is a reflection of the Assembly getting together and making sure that we have the best person in place to undertake those important duties that we have under the auspices of the Ombudsman and the Child Advocate.

It is unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, that this whole process got derailed a bit b ecause of the outstanding issues that the Child Advocate has identified that again were under the tutorship, under the steward- ship of the former Minister of Family Services, now the Minister of Health (Mr. Sale). Once again, we see how this whole issue has been mishandled by the government. So, there are some important issues that have to be put to rest, but they are now in the realm of the responsibility of the government. But, having said that, Mr.

Speaker, I truly believe that if we really want to get on with the true democratic process of appointing independent offi- cers, there is really nothing wrong with having a member from the independent members of this Legislature sit on that committee to do that hiring and to ensure that we have the best possible person in place for that responsibility. * (13:55) Mr. Speaker: A matter of privilege is a serious concern, so I am going take this matter under advisement to consult the authorities, and I will return to the House with a ruling. Now we will revert back to petitions. PETITIONS Highway 200 Mrs.

Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, and these are the reasons for the petition. Highway 200 is paved from Winnipeg to the Canada-U.S. border except for approximately a 10- kilometre

section between highways 205 and 305 which remains unpaved. School buses, farm equip- ment, emergency vehicles and local traffic must travel on Highway 200 which is dangerous, if not completely impassable, during wet spring weather and other times of heavy rainfall.

348 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 2, 2004 Due to unsafe conditions, many drivers look to alternate routes around this

section when possible and time permits. The condition of the gravel road can cause serious damage to all vehicles. Insufficient traffic counts are not truly reflective of the traffic volumes because users tend to find another route to avoid this section. Traffic counts done after spring seeding, during wet weather or during school recess are not indicative of traffic flows. Maintenance costs for unpaved highways are high and ongoing. It would be cost-effective to pave this section.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Lemieux) consider paving Highway 200 between highways 205 and 305 to ensure a smooth, safe and uninterrupted use of Highway 200. Signed by D. Teichroew, Louisa Gagnon, Ursula Bremaud and others. Addictions Foundation of Manitoba Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, and these are the reasons for this petition: The Addictions Foundation of Manitoba (AFM) provides intervention, rehabilitation, prevention, edu- cation and public information services on addictions for the citizens of Manitoba. Manitoba's provincial Budget 2004 cut funding to the AFM by $150,000 and required the organi- zation to absorb a $450,000 wage settlement. In order to operate within its budget, the AFM was forced to close 14 treatment beds in its primary care unit and eliminate 10 nursing positions.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Health to ensure that his attempts to balance his department's finances are not at the expense of the health and well-being of vulnerable Manitobans suffering from addiction. To urge the Minister of Health to consider monitoring the waiting lists for addiction treatment and to consider ensuring that timely treatment for Manitobans with addictions is not compromised by the provincial government's decision to cut the AFM's annual budget. Signed by Maureen Stevinson, Marlena Lanoria, Elaine Ford and others. Pension Benefits Mr.

David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition. These are the reasons for this petition: Pension benefits for thousands of Manitoba health care workers are being cut because the government has refused to support the front-line health care workers in their desire to maintain their existing Healthcare Employees' Pension Plan (HEPP). The government is doubling the early retirement penalty to 6 percent a year from 3 percent.

There will be no cost-of-living benefits for retirees in the foreseeable future, which means that inflation will erode retirees' pension cheques over time. The government's refusal to support the existing pension plan will have a negative impact on hundreds of front-line health care workers. The government is demonstrating a lack of respect for front-line health care workers by its decision to allow administrative costs in the regional health authorities to skyrocket by millions of dollars.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the provincial government to consider redirecting administrative cost savings to front-line health care workers. To request the provincial government to treat front-line health care workers with the respect they deserve, and to consider supporting the health care employees' pension plan by not cutting pension benefits.

December 2, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 349 Signed by Karen Faurschou, Michele Tully, J. Wermie and others. * (14:00) Physician Shortage – Westman Region Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The Westman region serving Brandon and the surrounding area will be without an on-call pedia- trician for 20 days between November 10 and December 31, 2004.

As a result of the severe shortage of pedia- tricians to serve the Westman area, Brandon and area women with high-risk pregnancies as well as critically ill children are being forced, at even greater risk, to travel to Winnipeg for urgent medical attention. The chiefs of the departments of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Family Practice and Anesthesia at the Brandon Regional Health Centre have publicly voiced their concern regarding the potentially disas- trous consequences of the shortage.

Brandon physicians were shocked and angered by the lack of communication and foresight on the part of the government related to retention of a local pediatrician. The Minister of Health has stated that Brandon has to put its best foot forward and recruit its own doctors. Doctors have warned that if the current situation is prolonged, it may result in further loss of services or the departure of other specialists who find the situation unmanageable.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To strongly urge the Minister of Health to consider taking charge and ensuring that he will improve long-term planning efforts to develop a lasting solution to the chronic problem of pedia- trician and other specialist shortages in Brandon. To strongly urge the Minister of Health to treat this as the crisis that it is and consider consulting with front-line workers, par ticularly doctors, to find solutions. To strongly urge the Minister of Health and the Premier of Manitoba to consider ending highway medicine now.

Signed: Kathy Penner, Melinda Moore, Karen Isham and others. Minimum Sitting Days for Legislative Assembly Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The Manitoba Legislature sat for only 37 days in 2003 and 2004 is not much better. Manitobans expect their government to be accountable, and the number of sitting days has a direct impact on the issue of public accountability.

Manitobans expect their elected officials to be provided the opportunity to be able to hold the government accountable. The Legislative Assembly provides the best forum for all MLAs to debate and ask questions of the government, and it is critical that all MLAs be provided the time needed in order for them to cover constituent and party duties. Establishing a minimum number of sitting days could prevent the government of the day from limiting the rights of opposition members from being able to ask questions.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba to consider recognizing the need to sit for a minimum of 80 days in any given calendar year. Signed by William Yumang, Edwin Porcioncula and Norman Castaneda.

350 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 2, 2004 MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Midwestern Legislative Conference Hon. Scott Smith (Minist er of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade): Mr. Speaker, today the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly and I, on behalf of the government of Manitoba, had the honour to sign a proclamation that will formally recognize Manitoba's affiliate membership in the Midwestern Legislative Conference. Mr.

Speaker, the MLC is a regional association of state legislatures representing the 11 Midwestern U.S. states: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michi- gan, Minnesota, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota and Wisconsin. The purpose of the conference is to foster regional intergovernment co- operation in the Midwest. All 1550 Midwestern state lawmakers, as well as the provincial legislatures from Manitoba, Ontario and Saskatchewan, are eli- gible to participate in the MLC activities.

In attendance at today's signing ceremony were Iowa's House Majority Whip Libby Jacobs, chair of the MLC; Speaker of the Saskatchewan Legislative Assembly, Myron Kowalsky, co-chair of the Midwest-Canada Relations Committee and Nebraska Senator Pam Redfield, vice-chair of the Midwest- Canada Relations Committee. There are many good reasons for Manitoba to join the MLC. The obvious reason was the fact that Canada and the U.S. are each other's largest trading partners and closest neighbours.

Keeping the doors of communication open will help us understand each other's position on important issues and to work for solutions. Manitoba's membership in the MLC will provide an important opportunity for the kind of two- way dialogue between our legislators and those of the Midwestern United States. Legislators on both sides of the border and both sides of the House will have the opportunity to discuss matters that affect them all and to understand better their respective positions. Clearly, the Canada-U.S. relationship is huge.

The 5000 miles of border that Canada and the U.S. share supports the world's largest trading relationship with over $1 billion in two-way trade per day and over 200 million people crossing it each year. This trading relationship translates into millions of jobs that provide a livelihood for millions of American and Canadian families. Our relationship with the Midwestern states is especially important. In 2003, the two-way trade between Canada and the Midwestern states was $220 billion.

In Manitoba alone, our two-way trade with the Midwestern states was $8.3 billion in 2003, which does represent 55 percent of our trade with the United States. Discussions between legislatures through the Midwestern Legislative C onference can only en- hance this vital relationship, and I am very pleased that Manitoba's MLAs will have the ongoing opportunity to participate in this dialogue. I know, Mr. Speaker, we have many of them with us here today. Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I also would like to comment on today's proclamation signing.

I was pleased to witness the signing of the proclamation officially recognizing Manitoba as an affiliate member of the Midwestern Legislative Conference. The proclamation was signed by our Speaker, Iowa State Representative Libby Jacobs, and our Deputy Premier (Ms. Wowchuk), on behalf of the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Smith). I would like to welcome Senator Pam Redfield of Nebraska, State Representative Libby Jacobs, who is also the chair of the MLC, and the Speaker of the House in Saskatchewan, Mr. Myron Kowalsky.

The Midwestern Legislative Conference is comprised of 11 Midwestern states and 3 Canadian provinces. The purpose of the conference is to discuss regional intergovernmental issues and co- operation in the Midwest. One of the benefits is to be able to send one of our members to the Bohee Legislative Leaders' Conference, and our member from Springfield attended that this past summer. We recognize the significance of a relationship with the United States, as we are each other's biggest

December 2, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 351 trading partners and our economics are closely linked. As Senator Pam Redfield from Nebraska said during her speech today, "We have much in common, and we are really the same people from the same origins, and if the boundaries of our countries had been drawn longitudinally rather than latitu- dinally, we might have found ourselves in different situations." I had the opportunity to attend the Midwestern Legislative Conference in Des Moines, Iowa, last July, along with my colleagues the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson), th e Member for The Maples (Mr.

Aglugub), the Memb er for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg), and led by the Speaker of the House and our Clerk of the Assembly. I can tell you that we discussed the issue of the border closure as a result of BSE, as well as issues related to energy, health and education, just to name a few. I know that we all found it very informative and interesting. It was a pleasure to meet many state representatives and senators from the Midwestern states, as well as many MLAs from Saskatchewan who attended.

Next year, the Midwestern Legislative Conference will be held in Regina from July 30 to August 3, and I would encourage all MLAs to attend. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. * (14:10) Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Some Honourable Members: No. An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Speaker: No? I will ask once again. Does the honourable member have leave? An Honourable Member: No leave. An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Speaker: I am hearing a no.

I heard a no, so leave has not been granted. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 9–The Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation Act Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Smith), that Bill 9, The Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation Act, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Robinson: This bill replaces and modernizes The Centennial Centre Corporation Act, as we currently know it, which regulates the Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation.

We believe that this act will enable the corporation to take advantage of best business practices enjoyed by similar facilities in the Crown corporation sector. We also believe that this new act will allow the corporation the oppor- tunity to develop new revenue services and become more responsive to the changing marketplace. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today Representative Libby Jacobs from Iowa.

She is the chair of the Midwestern Legislative Conference and Majority Whip in the Iowa House of Represen- tatives. We have Speaker Myron Kowalsky from Saskatchewan. The Speaker is co-chair of the MLC's Midwest-Canada Relations Committee. We also have Senator Pam Redfield from Nebraska. Senator Redfield is vice-chair of the Midwest-Canada Relations Committee. We also have Mike McCabe, who is the director of the Midwestern Legislative Conference of the Council of State Governments. We also have Ilene Grossman, who is assistant director for the Midwestern Legislative Conference

352 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 2, 2004 of the Council of State Governments and staff to the Midwest-Canada Relations Committee. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. Also I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today 35 third-year students of Politics and the Mass Media from the University of Winnipeg. These students ar e under the direction of Mr. Donald Benham. On behalf of all honourable members, I also welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Physician Resources Pediatrician Shortage (Brandon) Mr.

Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, Westman moms and chil- dren are suffering under the Doer government. When asked what the Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) was going to do to the pediatric crisis in Brandon, that minister said, quote, "Brandon has to take the lead in putting their best foot forward to recruit physicians." A letter that I received from a concerned mom in the Westman region, Jennifer Lamb, said, and I quote, "It is tiring to read on and on how it is Brandon's problem to retain these doctors.

Is this the NDP trying to sweep Westman under the rug on the basis there are shortages all across the country?" In an unprecedented move, Mr. Speaker, letters from three chiefs of departments, and I want to use this to reference a full-page letter to the Doer government saying, "Docs rip province." Their concern was basically, they stated in that

article that the Minister of Health should realize that band-aid, short-term, election, year-to-year solutions do not work. Mr. Speaker, rather than lay blame and play politics before elections and tell Westman what they want to hear, it is time for this Premier to accept responsibility. It is time for him to make sure and implement a program that deals with this pediatric crisis that we see in Westman. When can moms and children that are in the gallery today from Westman expect a scheme, something that shows those moms that there is some hope for them for pediatric doctors in their region?

When is he going to live up to what his promises are? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to remind our guests in the public gallery there is to be no participation, and that also includes applauding. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, certainly we know when it comes to Band-Aid solutions that you reap what you sow. Regrettably, today in Manitoba, because of the reduction in the medical school from 85 to 70, we have less doctors graduating in our first four years in office.

When you go from 85 to 70 doctors in your medical school, you basically deny Brandon, Park- land, Thompson, NOR-MAN, Churchill, Interlake, Winnipeg with less graduating doctors in this province. Unlike members opposite, we did not hack and slash the medical school, having a devastating impact on all Manitobans. Our first year in office– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. We are very early into Question Period. All members that wish to raise a question or answer a question, I am sure will have their opportunity, but we can only entertain one question and one answer at a time.

I ask the co- operation of all honourable members. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We, in our first year, reversed that absolutely terrible policy. We immediately initiated an increase in enrolment from 70 to 85 medical students in Manitoba. The class in 2000 went up from 70 to 85. We will be subsequently graduating more doctors, more Manitoba students, more students from all over rural Manitoba from that medical school. We have now increased it from 85 to 87. We are on track to go to a hundred.

December 2, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 353 There is no question there were Band-Aid solu- tions in Manitoba in health care. Members opposite could not run a first aid kit. Regional Health Authority Administrative Costs Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Well, Mr. Speaker– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. We have two empty loges. If members wish to have a conversation, please use the loges. It is time for questions and answers, and I need to be able to hear the questions and the answers in case there is a breach of a rule.

I am sure you would all expect me to make a ruling, but how can I make a ruling if I cannot even hear the comments of the member that has the floor. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. Mr. Murray: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. We just heard the Premier say that you reap what you sow. Well, is it not interesting that, under 1999, the administrative costs of the Brandon Regional Health Authority, at that time, were $1 million. What they have reaped and what they have sowed now are those admin costs in the Brandon Regional Health Authority have gone to $2.5 million.

That is what they are reaping and sowing. Mr. Speaker, what is equally as troubling is that the administrative costs for all of rural Manitoba, all the RHAs have gone from $13 million under this Premier's watch, up to $24.5 million. That is what they are reaping, and that is what they are sowing. We would love, by the way, to share with this Chamber and to share with the media, and all those people watching what the costs of the administration in the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority have grown to, but they are hiding them. They do not even want to tell Manitobans what they are. * (14:20) Mr.

Speaker, administrative costs have consis- tently gone up under the Doer government. They have gone up from one RHA to another. How does this Premier possibly explain his continuous lack of accountability, his continuous lack of any respon- sibility to properly manage health care dollars and the concerns of moms and children that we have in the gallery representing other moms from the Westman region who are being shipped from Brandon to Winnipeg, highway medicine ambu- lances, because of his inability to manage health care. Why is he doing it? Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): The number of people that had been disappointed, Mr. Speaker, from the decisions made by the previous government to not build and redevelop the Brandon General Hospital, thousands of people were shipped to Winnipeg for MRIs. They will no longer be shipped to Winnipeg because we placed the first MRI outside of the Perimeter Highway. While the member opposite has been fighting a one-trick pony for the Maples profit clinic, we have been shipping surgeries to the Boundary Trails Hospital, to the Steinbach Hospital, a CAT scan in Thompson, The Pas, Selkirk, Steinbach, Portage la Prairie.

We are putting di agnostic equipment outside of Winnipeg so less patients will have to come into Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, they decimated rural health care services, they decimated the medical school, and we are on track to rebuild that system, and yes– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: The would-have, could-have, should- have party is making a lot of noise now, but when they cut the medical school, they were quiet as church mouses, Mr. Speaker. They did nothing for the people in terms of the long-term consequences. Mr. Speaker, there is a shortage of pediatric surgeons.

There is a shortage of family doctors. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: There is a shortage. I would say to members opposite that you cannot just snap your finger and solve the problem when the medical school– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to remind the House that when the Speaker is standing, all

354 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 2, 2004 members should be seated and the Speaker should be heard in silence. I would like to remind all honourable members that we are trying to get as many questions and answer s in, and when there are disruptions going on, the clock is still ticking. It is just going to shorten the number of questions. Mr. Doer: There is a shortage in Brandon. We have had the minister meet with the administration. He is going to meet later on with the families. I have pledged myself to meet with the families.

We are working on long-term solutions through the medical school, as I have said. We are looking for long-term solutions with bursaries for those students. We are looking at long-term solutions with recruitment incentives and tuition forgiveness for people that do work in rural and northe rn Manitoba. We have established the office of rural doctor recruitment and northern doctor recruitment. Members opposite were going to pay doctors 1 percent in 2003 and zero pe rcent the other year. Mr.

Speaker, you would not be able to recruit or retain any medical staff with the kinds of salaries members opposite had proposed during the election campaign. There is a shortage, Mr. Speaker. There is a shortage. The number of days that are not covered, I believe, are five right now. It is over the Christmas- time. The minister is working very, very vigorously to take the 24 days that were not covered. He has reduced it down to five. We still have not got there, and we are dedicated to moving resources in to make sure that people do not have to come from Brandon to Winnipeg.

As I understand it, in the last 13 days there has not been any. Rural Hospitals Closures Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, the arrogance in the answer, frankly, is cold comfort to those moms, those children who are suffering under this Doer government's inability to deal with a chronic crisis that is happening in Brandon. We see that health administration costs are going through the roof. We see patients under this Doer government being shipped from Brandon to Winnipeg in highway medicine.

We see that there is a chronic shortage of specialists, that this Premier has the inability to not only answer questions about it in the House, but has the inability to do anything to give some hope and comfort to those moms and children who are here in the gallery today. Mr. Speaker, I am also very concerned that I asked this Premier for his commitment, that he said to Manitobans that he would commit not to close or convert a single rural hospital. I wrote him a letter and asked him if he would still stand up to that commitment.

His response left me very concerned that he is not going to live up to his commitment. So I ask, Mr. Speaker, in front of the moms, the children, everybody in the House: Will this Premier give us a straight answer? Will he live up to his commitment, and say today in this House that he will not close or convert one single rural hospital? Yes or no? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, again this is cold comfort for members opposite. We had to open the emergency ward of the Gladstone Hospital, so members opposite will look at what we are doing, and thankfully, too. The public knows what the Tories did in office.

The public knows what they did not do with the Brandon General Hospital. The public knows how many family doctors have been lost. The public knows the 1500 nurses that were let go when they were in office. The public will not be fooled by the would-have, could-have, should-have members opposite because they did not do it, and the public knew that and that is why they were thrown out in 1999. Mr. Speaker, I just want to point out we are dedicated to dealing with the shortage in Brandon, but I also want to point out a new spinal surgery program was started in Brandon with the new hospital we built in 2004.

A new laser surgery in the urology program has been expanded. We are doing more minimally invasive surgeries now to bowels, appendix and colons in Brandon with the new hospital. The number of surgical beds in Brandon will go up from 43 to 56 in the spring of 2005, an increase of 30 percent. The MRI machine that has opened in Brandon means less people are coming to Winnipeg from Brandon. The people in Brandon know that. The people in Westman know it, and they know their record. Rural Hospitals Closures Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Timely access to health care is a priority for all Manitobans. The

December 2, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 355 Minister of Health has indicated primary health reform is a big issue. The minister has requested the Assiniboine Regional Health Authority forward a document outlining future plans for the region. Will the minister assure the re sidents of rural Manitoba that no hospitals will be closed? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, in terms of primary health care reform, I was absolutely delighted yesterday to announce the construction and opening shortly of five brand-new primary health care centres in various centres in Manitoba.

Let me tell the member opposite that primary health care is the most important reform area that we can work on in our overall health system. For example, it is well-known that advance practice nurses can provide between 60 percent and 80 percent of the care adequately, safely and very effectively, that a general practitioner can provide. So primary care reform on the national level in every province in Canada and in this province is very high on our agenda and very important to the future sustainability of our health care system and to dealing with the shortage of physicians.

Physician Resources Pediatrician Shortage (Brandon) Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Manitobans do care about their health system. In fact in the gallery today are concerned parents from Brandon and western Manitoba. They have made the trip to Winnipeg to talk directly with the minister regarding the lack of pediatric services in the Westman region. Will the minister assure these parents he is addressing this important issue, or should they put their best foot forward and find their own solutions? * (14:30) Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I would just repeat what ou r Premier (Mr.

Doer) has said, and that is we have a part-time coverage from Saskatoon and two from Winnipeg. We have successfully covered 20 of the 25 days that were going to be vacant betwee n now and the new year. We will do everything we possibly can working with Brandon, with the WRHA and with other medical centres that have pediatricians to make sure there is coverage over that period of time. I would just remind those that are present in the House today, though, that during the previous Conservative government's time in office, there was an 18-month period where there was not pediatric coverage in Brandon.

We are working very hard with Brandon RHA, with our own regional health care association of Manitoba, to ensure there are doctors for all of the areas where we have shortages. Recruitment/Retention Strategy Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, three doctors representing the heads of three depart- ments at the Brandon Regional Health Centre have indicated that the minister should think outside the box to study other models of recruitment and retention and develop imaginative new solutions. We must put an end to highway medicine.

Will the minister confirm that he has a long-term strategy to deal with the chronic shortage of doctors in western Manitoba? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I think it has been clearly acknowledged by every Health Minister, every Premier and every Prime Minister in this country. There is a structural shortage of doctors because when the previous Conservative government was in power in this province, and other governments in other provinces, medical college enrolments were cut anywhere from 20 percent to 30 percent.

Seven years later, you reaped what you sowed, and that is why we are in this situation. Mr. Speaker, we do have a very successful program in Manitoba. Under the previous Conser- vative government, down 116 doctors. During our party's time in office, up 139 doctors, 52 of them serving in rural Manitoba. Fifty-two of those new doctors are in rural Manitoba. We still have a problem. There is lots to do, but we are in a lot better shape today. Rural Hospitals Closures Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, all we see from this government is the legacy of broken promises.

Remember the 1999 election, $15 million in six months will solve all of Manitoba's health care problems.

356 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 2, 2004 Mr. Speaker, in a desperate move last election, the Premier (Mr. Doer) came through the commu- nities of Erickson, Minnedosa, Rivers and said, "Your hospitals will not close. Read my lips. I will not reduce any services in these communities." What is happening today? We see no hospital in Erickson, Rossburn, Birtle, Rivers. Mr. Speaker, when will this Minister of Health take his job seriously and ensure that moms do not have to put their children on the highways to get services for their families? Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): Indeed, Mr.

Speaker, there is more, and the more is that there are 139 more doctors today than there were when we formed office. We have moved our medical college up from 70 to 87. We are going to move it to a hundred. We have put in a very aggressive program of recruiting and certifying immigrant medical doctors so that we can make use of the skills of those immigrants who have come to our province from other communities around the world and can make those skills available to us, Mr. Speaker. There is no question there is a structural shortage across our country.

We are doing everything we can to deal with that, and it cannot be done overnight. All Manitobans remember is in 2003, the Conservatives were prepared to try and fool Manitobans into thinking you could deal with a 1% increase in the health care system. No, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, today the community of Russell, where 7000 people are being served by medical doctors, is down to one doctor. We are down to one doctor. Two thirds of the graduates, our medical graduates, are leaving th is province, Mr. Speaker. Why? Because of this government. It is time to address the issue. We have hospitals closing.

People are without services. When is this minister going to deliver the services? Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member is seated very close to me here, and I have a very difficult time hearing. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. We have the viewing public through the television, we have our guests in the gallery who have come down to hear question and answer period, and I think we at least owe them the chance to hear what is being asked and the answers that are being delivered. I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. Mr. Sale: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the member opposite forgets that the third-largest hospital in Manitoba was closed, the Misericordia hospital in Winnipeg, and it was closed by the former Conservative government, some 300 beds. Perhaps the member forgets that during his government's time in office, 1583 nurses left this province, left the registry. Perhaps he forgets that 116 doctors left our province during the time that they were in power. Perhaps he forgets that the closure of pediatric services coverage in Brandon was for 18 months, not a matter of days.

Perhaps he forgets that they tried to privatize home care and were rejected by Manitobans overwhelmingly. Perhaps he forgets that they cut the enrolment in the medical college from 85 down to 70. Perhaps he forgets that only 210 nurses graduated in the last year of their government and that 700 are graduating this year. Perhaps he forgets. Mr. Derkach: What a sick and conceited gesture by the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, there is one thing I do remember, and the thing I remember is the promise that the First Minister (Mr.

Doer) made when he was in Rivers, when he was in Souris, when he was in Minnedosa, when he was in Erickson, when he said, "It is not the CEO of the ARHA who is in charge. I am in charge, I am the Premier. There will not be any closures of hospitals or services." I am asking the minister to live up to the word of his Premier, and ensure that people from the west side of this province, moms and children, do not have to put their children on highways to get services for their families. Mr. Sale: Mr.

Speaker, during the previous govern- ment's time in office, they promised to build the Brandon hospital's renewal project six or seven times. It is open. It is providing excellent coverage for a huge number of new processes that were not in place when they were in power. Perhaps they have forgotten there was no MRI. There were no new CT capacities. Perhaps they have forgotten the new CTs that were put in a variety of places in northern and southern Manitoba, so that people did not have to get on the bus or did not have to drive their cars to be

December 2, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 357 able to get radiological services, cancer services. We are working to put more surgeries and more capacity all over rural Manitoba, and we will continue to build on that record. Children's Advocate Recommendations Government Response Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, hollow words from a minister who left behind such a shambles in the Department of Family Services that, two years later, it is still in disarray.

The Child Advocate, and I quote from her report, "Of most concern was the strained labour-management relationship that had created hostility, suspicion and fear." That is what he has left behind.

I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services if she can explain why more than two years after the horrible incident in Pauingassi that she and her department have still not responded to the recommendations made by the Child Advocate, and if she could explain to this House why the families who were involved in that incident, and more importantly the children involved in that incident, have still not received the counselling services that the Child Advocate recommended over a year ago? * (14:40) Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr.

Speaker, I am sure we can all agree it was a very upsetting event to learn about. The department learned about it on September 24, 2002, and on October 2, responded to Southeast Child and Family Services with several actions. The Child Protection branch's investigation agreed that it was unacceptable to have children in the cells and advised the agency to immediately stop using the cells for retaining children. The executive director requested the RCMP to investigate this incident because the jail cells used belonged to the RCMP. The RCMP agreed, and the use of cells ended.

The executive director made recommendations to Southeast Child and Family Services regarding the continuing stability– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Loewen: It is unfortunate that this minister does not listen to the questions and simply stands up and reads from briefing notes that have been provided to her. It was a very specific question about one of the 11 recommendations that were made to this minister in her department in October of 2003, 11 recom- mendations, I might add, that the department and the minister have not responded to as of today, over a year later.

I would ask this minister when she is going to put the needs of families, and more particularly, the needs of children, ahead of her own unsubstantive statements. When is she going to get down to the business of responding to the recommendations that were made with the Child Advocate's department? Ms. Melnick: The progress that has been made, which began in October of 2002, a year before the Advocate investigated, and I am not saying anything negative about the Advocate, she does a very fine job, but the results to date are two of the three staff involved are no longer with the agency.

The cells are not being used. The workers at Southeast Child and Family have received training on dealing with solvent abuse issues; specifically, CFS has instituted a process on how to deal with children under the influence of solvents. We have also been working with Southeast CFS to institute an internal process for conducting file audits to ensure compliance around the use of– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Loewen: I fail to understand why this minister continually stands up and makes excuses and goes into damage control for the former minister.

The fact of the matter is the Child Advocate indicates– [interjection] This is a serious issue, Sir. The Child Advocate indicates in a report, and I quote, "Another area of concern that we have noted over the last few years is that agencies and departments can ignore any recommendation made by the Child Advocate." That is what we would have here. I would ask the minister to explain to this House, explain to the Child Advocate, explain to the families and children of Manitoba why, over a year after receiving the recommendations from the Child Advocate, her department, and she specifically, have failed to respond.

When is she going to put the needs of children and their families first? Ms. Melnick: Well, Mr. Speaker, dramatics aside, recognizing that we are dealing with a very serious

358 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 2, 2004 problem, the department began, within two weeks of learning, to work with Southeast Child and Family. The Advocate also states that her relationship with our department is going very well. I meet with her on a regular basis, as do member s of my staff. In fact, a meeting is set for next week for staff to meet with the Advocate to review her report in its entirety. Bail Conditions Review Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): The NDP during the '99 and 2003 elections promised safer communities. The Member for St.

Johns, who has been the Justice Minister for the last six years, under his watch we see time and time again, Mr. Speaker, criminals being released on bail into our commu- nities, only to commit more crimes. Take for example, Eugene Dumas. In 2001, he was arrested for breaking another person's jaw. He was released on bail and failed to appear in court. He was arrested again and given a probation order. He is now wanted on three warrants for assault causing bodily harm, uttering threats and breach of probation. He has disappeared, and the police have a warrant for his arrest.

I ask the Justice Minister has he made this community safer by allowing Dumas to be in the community continuing to terrorize Manitobans. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, Statistics Canada tells us that Manitoba is the toughest province in which to get bail in this country. But I remind members opposite that when we came into office, Manitoba had suffered the highest violent crime rate of all of the provinces through most of the 1990s. Today our violent crime rate is 27 percent below the highest province. Mr.

Hawranik: Well, I ask the Justice Minister to take responsibility for this issue. He has been the Justice Minister for the last six years. I ask the minister whether he has fulfilled his promises to make our communities safer when Cory Lee Fairchuk was charged with assaulting a woman in April this year. He was released and then failed to appear in court. In June, he was again arrested for assaulting this woman and for breaching conditions, and then released on bail again. He again failed to appear in court and is still at large in the community. The only way to find him is to follow his trail of victims.

I ask this Minister of Justice, and I ask him because he admits that he was assaulted and bullied at age 14, in this Legislature. Is the community safer because Cory Lee Fairchuk is at large in the community and free to commit more criminal offences? Is the community safer? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I just want to clarify for the record that when I was 14, I was not bullied in this Legislature. That has been more recent, quite frankly. It is important for members opposite to know that our prosecutors act on the basis of the law, the evidence and prosecution policy. We have strength- ened prosecution policies.

It is difficult, in comparison to other provinces, to get bail in this province. Indeed, 58 percent of our jail population is persons on remand custody. I might also add that we have supported our prosecutors. We have increased resources to our prosecutors by 68 percent since coming into office. Mr. Hawranik: While in opposition, the Justice Minister put forward in a discussion paper advo- cating that criminals who break bail conditions should be ineligible for further release.

Again, while in opposition, the Justice Minister stated that bail should be eliminated for people charged with violent offences who have previously breached bail conditions. Tough talk when the minister was in opposition but now that he is Minister of Justice, thes e words ring hollow. Using the Justice Minister's own criteria, both Fairchuk and Dumas should not have been released into the community, committing more and more assaults. Why has the minister not backed up his words with action? This minister is all talk and no action.

I ask the Justice Minister what has changed now that the minister is no longer in opposition. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, we do not need lessons from members opposite who presided over a government and a crime statistic that was unfor- tunate, very unfortunate. We suffered the highest violent crime rate of all the provinces through almost all the nineties. We are now 27% below the province with the highest rate. I might also add that Manitoba,

December 2, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 359 and you can have different views on this one, but the fact is we have the second-highest incarceration rate of all the provinces. Now, Mr. Speaker, in addition to that we have gone to the federal government and we have said that they have got to change the bail rules in this country. We called on them to tighten it up, to make sure that those who are denied bail are rightly denied bail and create a presumption against bail for those who have breached their conditions. Thank you. * (14:50) Education System Capital Projects Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr.

Speaker, this week we learned that Seven Oaks School Division will be getting a brand new school even though they did not ask for one. At the same time, communities that have requested much-needed new schools are not getting them. I would like to table documents from Louis Riel, Pembina Trails, River East school divisions which show that there is a real need for new schools in these high growth areas. My question is for the Minister of Education.

Why has the minister approved construction of a new West Kildonan Collegiate when not even requested by the division, while several requests from Louis Riel, Pembina Trails, River East have gone un- attended? Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Mr. Speaker, first of all, the West Kildonan decision was based on an area of growth. Now yesterday in the House during a speech, on the Throne speech, the member from Portage talked about, let me quote from Hansard.

The member from Portage mentioned, "Let us look at the figures referring to out-migration exceeds in-migration." In 1999, the actual population in Manitoba was 1.14 million. Last year, it was 1.16 million, an increase of only 20 000 people. I do not know about you, but my math would suggest that 20 000 people is growth. Certainly, West Kildonan demonstrated growth. The reason we opted to build a brand new school was because we took a look at the request to renovate, and the cost of renovation did not make sense. It made more economic sense to build brand new over investing in an older structure. Mrs.

Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, the school division did not even request a brand new school in that area. The decision to build a new West Kildonan Collegiate was clearly a political decision. Perhaps this is because former NDP campaign manager and current Seven Oaks School Division Superintendent Brian O'Leary and NDP contributor Ben Zaidman, the current chair of the Public Schools Finance Board, made that decision. Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Seven Oaks School Division Capital Priorities List for the House right now.

It should be noted that a new school, West Kildonan Collegiate, is not even on the division's capital priority list. Mr. Speaker, how much do the parents in Louis Riel School Division, Pembina Trails School Division, River East School Division have to contribute to the NDP before they get to see their schools? Mr. Bjornson: Mr. Speaker, I really must take exception to the suggestion that this is a partisan decision. We have committed to build these schools in such NDP bastions as Winkler, and we recently opened one up in nearby Steinbach, in Mitchell. We govern for all Manitobans, Mr.

Speaker, and our record is very clear on capital. We have invested $288 million. We have had eight new schools, eleven replacement schools, 35 major capital projects, over 600 projects renovating, or 707 schools. If that is partisan, I believe every opportunity I have had to visit schools throughout the province, I have been to 112 schools in my tenure, every opportunity I have had to visit schools, regardless of the political stripe, I have been amazed to see how much we have been doing in the last five years.

I know what it is on paper, but I see it first-hand when I visit schools in every constituency in this province. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Neelin Spartans Volleyball Teams Mr. Drew Caldwell (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise in the Manitoba

360 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 2, 2004 Legislature today to honour the Neelin Spartans varsity boys' and varsity girls' volleyball teams, who this past weekend won the Manitoba High Schools– Point of Order Mr. Speaker: Order. May I remind the House that a point of order takes precedence over the matter. The only thing that a point of order will not stop is when a vote is being conducted. I heard the honourable member say he was rising on a point of order. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Yes, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. Our rules indicate time limits in terms of Question Period.

I realize this is really the second Question Period in which I did not get the opportunity to ask a question. But what I wanted to do, because I made a commitment to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) to get him a Big Mac if he proclaimed the Criminal Property Forfeiture Act, and I belie ve he has done so. I wanted to be able to provide that Big Mac for the Minister of– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. May I remind all honourable members a point of order is to point out to the Speaker a breach of a rule or a departure from Manitoba practices.

Points of order should be used when they are raised. The honourable member does not have a point of order. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Brandon East, continue with your member's statement. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise in the Manitoba Legislature today to honour the Neelin Spartans varsity boys' and varsity girls' volleyball teams. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr.

Leonard Derkach (Official Opposition House Leader): Yes, on a point of order, and I know that today's Question Period went on inordinately long, and the member from Inkster did not get a question. But, if I am not mistaken, we are not allowed to bring props and demonstrations into the Legislature, and I would just like your advice on that. Mr. Speaker: The rules are very clear: We are not allowed to–well, for one thing, I am not sure what is in the container, but if– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. A point of order is a very serious matter.

On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, it is very clear. If that is a food product, it is not allowed into this Chamber. We all know that, and if it is not, it is an exhibit, and the exhibits are not allowed in this Chamber. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, I know, on numerous occasions, documents and such are tabled. This is just a request to hand something. I can recall Judy– An Honourable Member: The Speaker ruled. Mr. Lamoureux: Be patient. Judy Wasylycia-Leis, who is a New Democrat, did the same thing. There are other MLAs who have done things of similar nature.

If the government feels so offended, I am prepared to withdraw the gesture. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Lamoureux: Calm down. It is not different from what your own New Democrats did. Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not want this to turn into a debate. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Yes, to add a new point to the point of order, Mr. Speaker, not only is the member abusing the rules, and he knows so, but to ask our pages to be part of that breach of the rules is, I think, really, really inappropriate. It puts our pages in a position I have never witnessed before in this House.

I think it is an absolute disgrace. He should apologize.

December 2, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 361 Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order that was initially raised, I am going to be making a ruling here. I have heard enough to make a ruling. Order. First of all, food products are not allowed in here. Secondly, exhibits are not to be used, and thirdly, when I see a can of a product on the members' tables, I ask them to put it in the glass, because we will not allow the cameras to be used for advertising of any product in this Chamber.

I ask the honourable member to please, that container, put it in his desk or in the garbage can, but off the desk. That has been always our Manitoba practices, and I will not allow that from any member. * (15:00) I heard a comment about using the pages. When members are sending items to other members or to the table, they have to use the pages. That I cannot– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. So the instruction was to ask the member for the page to deliver to the member, but I saw–order. Listen. Order. That is why we have the table. Order.

I have just been informed, checking our records, Speaker Rocan, in the past, has ruled if the item is a prohibited item, either exhibit or the other items that I described, the pages were not allowed to deliver those products from one member to another, and I will follow the precedent that had been set by the previous Speaker.

I have noticed the honourable member has put the item away, and I have ruled pertaining to that, that the point of order he raised it on was not a point of order, and also the point of order that was raised by the honourable Official Opposition, I have dealt with it, and this should end the matter. Point of Order Mr. Lamoureux: Just on a new point of order, and I will not belabour it, it is just that the Premier (Mr.

Doer) also knows, if he is so familiar with the rules, that you are not supposed to be imputing motives, and for the Premier to make the assertion that I was manipulating the pages of this Chamber, I do believe is most inappropriate. Mr. Speaker, the Premier should withdraw his comments, as I will, without any hesitation, with- draw any way in which I might have offended this House. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Order.

On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Inkster, that is why I was pleased that I was able to explain to the House the processes, because it is very obvious to me that members have different

interpretations. Some members probably were not even elected at that time when Speaker Rocan made that ruling and set a precedent for us speakers to follow, so I will have to rule that the Member for Inkster does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Carman, on a new point of order? Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): On a new point of order. Mr. Speaker: On a new point of order. Mr. Rocan: Mr. Speaker, I hesitate to rise today on a particular point of order that I am raising at this particular time.

You, Sir, have ruled quite justly so on the exhibits in the House, but I believe what I have heard in this House this afternoon is a statement made by a particular member of this Legislature which I believe to be a bribe toward a minister of the Crown. I believe, Sir, if you peruse Hansard, you will find that the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) has offered a particular gift token to a particular minister of Executive Council to extract a favour. Traditionally, the way we stand in this House, we will present to you a particular breach of the rule which, I believe, to be rule 100.

Rule 100 very clearly states, "Since 1867, the House has had a rule specifically forbidding the offer of money, or any other advantage, to a Member. The present rule is Standing Order 23(1).

Section 119 of the Criminal Code, . . . similarly forbids such action."

362 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 2, 2004 Mr. Speaker, because I do not have a copy of Hansard at this time, I do not expect to have any. Sir, I would ask you to take specific notice to Rule 100 in Beauchesne's on this particular incident that I am raising right now on a point of order. Mr. Lamoureux: This, Mr. Speaker, to the same point of order. It is a very serious allegation that has been put forward and if, in fact, the will of any court in this province were to suggest that I attempted to bribe, I would entertain that. I think that what you have to keep in mind, and you might need this, Mr.

Speaker, in terms of ultimately making your ruling if you are going to make a ruling, just so that members are very much aware. There was an interview that occurred a number of months back, you cannot quote me, at least six, seven, eight months ago or so, and it was in regard to the bill that the government of the day had passed known as The Criminal Property Forfeiture Act. At the time, I sat on the committee and questioned whether or not the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) would, in fact, proclaim that bill.

There is sometimes a need for having a sense of humour as a political figure, and a number of months later I indicated to a Winnipeg Sun reporter that if, in fact, it was proclaimed, I would be more than happy to buy the Minister of Justice a Big Mac. I suspect that it will not be proclaimed within 12 months. Quite frankly, Mr. Speaker, it became very close to the 12 months. I think that it was a very innocent gesture and if the House feels that it is more than an innocent gesture, I would ask for the Government House Leader (Mr.

Mackintosh) and others to comment at this time if they feel that it was an inappropriate thing to do. Mr. Derkach: I regret that we are using up time when we should be debating the essence of the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, to deal with a matter of this kind. But on the other hand, I guess we must acknowledge that all this was, and I think the member from Inkster has indicated, this was just a stunt that he was trying to pull to attract some media attention. If you want to do that, I say do it outside of the Chamber, Mr. Speaker. I do not think that is the proper use of the time of members in this Chamber.

Secondly, when we ask for gestures of that nature, and I know they are sort of humourous in a sense but, more importantly, it is a gesture to try and attract some media attention. I think that can be done in the hallway. I would hope that you would take this under advisement. I think the member from Carman indeed has a point of order in that this could have been perceived as a bribe, and that should not be allowed in this Chamber either. So I would ask that you take that under advise- ment and report back to this Chamber. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Member for Carman (Mr.

Rocan), I am going to take it under advisement in order to peruse Hansard, and I will come back with a ruling. * * * Mr. Speaker: I would like to ask the kindness of the House, as the honourable Member for Brandon East has been interrupted, if we would allow him to restart and give him the full two minutes. [Agreed] Neelin Spartans Volleyball Teams Mr.

Drew Caldwell (Brandon East): It gives me great pleasure to rise in the Manitoba Legislature today to honour the Neelin Spartans varsity boys' and varsity girls' volleyball teams, who this past weekend won the Manitoba High Schools AAA Provincial Volleyball Championships. I take some personal pride in this achievement, Mr. Speaker, for not only is Neelin High School one of the finest educational institutions in Brandon East, but it is also my alma mater.

I along with all the citizens of Brandon, am very proud of the Neelin Spartans volleyball teams, whose members' names I will now read into the permanent historical record of the Manitoba Legislature. The members of the Neelin varsity girls are Jessi- Beth McCannell, Allyson Menzies, Kirsten Lawson, Stephanie Lacey-Avon, Natalie Majcher, Rina Lall, Kaylee Steffan, Kady Bootsman, Sarah Lopes and Tiersa Kejick. They were coached by Jill Martine and helped by the manager Le-Ann Featherstone. * (15:10)

December 2, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 363 The members of the Neelin varsity boys are Adam Philpott, Kelly McGuiness, Jason Hargreaves, Jordan Nostedt, Graeme Matheson, John Nostedt, Brett Mallette, Darcy Hammond, John McLeod, Cory Taylor, Emery Knight and Brendon Chudley. They were coached by Don Thomson and Grant Wilson. Congratulations to the Neelin High School varsity boys' and varsity girls' volleyball teams. As provincial champions, you have done your school and city proud. Ukraine Election Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): On a more serious note this afternoon, Mr.

Speaker, I want to just pay a little bit of attention to the orange ribbons that all of us in the Chamber are wearing today as a symbol of our support to the people in Ukraine who are fighting for democracy and for freedom. Mr. Speaker, we have seen a glimmer of hope in recent days that there may indeed be a new election in Ukraine, and perhaps th e principle of democracy and of fair elections and fairness and freedom can return to that country. So, today, I just want to assure all Manitobans of Ukrainian heritage that we stand with them.

We stand with the people in Ukraine to support them in their striving for freedom , for democracy and for fairness in the electoral process. It is indeed our hope that in the few short days to come that indeed we may see that sense of freedom, that sense of democracy, the sense of fairness return to the country of Ukraine, which has struggled for so long to try to retain, to try to sustain those very important principles that we enjoy here in the western part of the world. LifeWorks Golden Plate Gala Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. James): Mr.

Speaker, on November 25, I had the pleasure of attending LifeWorks' 5th Annual Golden Plate Gala. I was joined at the dinner by my colleagues, the honourable member from Assiniboia and the member from Rossmere. It was the fifth year in a row that I attended the gala, and as usual, the meal and the entertainment were fantastic. The gala raised crucia l funds for LifeWorks. This not-for-profit organization helps adults with mental disabilities find work and participate in the community. Currently, they support over 130 indivi- duals and work with over 200 businesses.

At the gala, several of these busi nesses were acknowledged for their outstanding support of LifeWorks' activities. I was particularly pleased to see that a St. James business, Gerard's Bakery and Deli, was recognized. They were named the Employer of the Year. Supported by LifeWorks, Gerard's Bakery and Deli has created positions for two individuals, both of whom work full time and earn a competitive wage. Mr. Speaker, the owners of Gerard's Bakery, Loraine Handley and Gerard Haggett, are very deser- ving of this award.

Their business gives all people an opportunity not just to work, but to grow and take on new challenges, all in an environment of kindness and respect. The significance of this cannot be overstated. By helping disabled individuals lead dignified and productive lives, Loraine and Gerard make a tremendous contribution to the betterment of our society. I would like to thank LifeWorks, which is also in my constituency and Gerard's Deli for their efforts to improve the lives of individuals facing mental disabilities and for their dedication to improving our community.

I would also like to thank the members of the Manitoba Culinary Team, who created the meal for the Golden Plate Gala, the Larry Roy Trio, who entertained the crowd with their music, and the many businesses who donated supplies for the meal and the silent auction. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Deep River Science Academy Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, the Whiteshell campus of the Deep River Science Academy, located in Pinawa, provides hands-on research opportunities to Canadian high school students.

The concept of the academy is based on a network of partnerships involving parties who share the mandate to encourag e youth to become the scientists and engineers of tomorrow. The campus does this by working with research partners who provide studies for the stud ents to work on for six weeks in the summer. The students not only gain valuable experience, but in doing so can make decisions about furthering their education following

364 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 2, 2004 high-school graduation. Students work with skilled scientists and a tutor, a university student that is a research assistant to the sc ientist and mentor to the two students who join the research team. The Deep River Science Academy is a non-profit national organization with two campus locations. The Deep River Ontario campus commenced operation in 1987, and the Whiteshell campus opened in 1993 and serves as the campus for western Canada.

This award-winning program has an impressive network of partners including numerous scientific research organizations and government departments, industry and foundations that support their cause. I commend the volunteer board of directors for their commitment and enthusiasm for the academy: Vince Lopata, president and chairperson; Mike Luke, vice-chairperson; Dr. Stu Iverson, treasurer; Dr. Michael Attas, secretary; Connie Hamon, board member; Jane Sargent, board member; Scott Smith, board member; Brian Wilcox, board member.

I congratulate the staff, principal, Walter Kukurudz, and the business manager, Arlene Davidson, for ensuring a quality scientific program and developing interest in scientific research. The academy is currently in its eleventh year and has won many science awards, the latest being the 2004 Michael Smith Awards for Science Promotion which was received last week. Congratulations to the Pinawa Deep River Science Academy. I am proud that the Deep River Science Academy is in Lac du Bonnet constituency. Windsor Park Mr. Bidhu Jha (Radisson): Mr.

Speaker, I rise here to speak with great pleasure to proclaim the Windsor Park community as a model community. Windsor Park is a very friendly and vibrant place to live in Winnipeg. The special charter of Windsor Park can be largely attributed to the numerous dedicated, sweet-minded individuals who live there. Parents, teachers and community cl ub executives are always working tirelessly to organize and to stage events which bring their community together. It is a community like an extra-large family. This year the efforts of the staff at Winakwa Community Centre have been particularly very impressive.

Cindy Fox, Ben Lee and their associates devoted many hours to planning upgrades to Winakwa Community Centre and were instrumental in an effort to obtain a Community Places grant which will fund their project. I wish to congratulate them on their fine work and I hope their endeavours are a huge success. Winakwa Community Centre has also done an outstanding job of bringing people from Windsor Park neighbourhoods together during the holiday season. Last weekend they held their tremendously popular Lunch with Santa where many children played, sang and danced with Santa.

On New Year's Eve they are planning to hold a big gala. These events go a long way to foster a sense of community and improve the lives of everyone involved. Mr. Speaker, not only is Windsor Park a great place for young families to live, it also has a lot to offer for seniors. The energetic members of Prendergast Centre provide a place where seniors can be sociable and feel treated with dignity at the same time. They provide the room for many day cares, once again a great service to the community. Windsor Park epitomizes Manitoba's renowned reputation as a leader in volunteerism.

I have been very impressed by the commitment displayed by numerous members of Windsor Park volunteers who strive to enhance the quality of life in their com- munity. I would like to thank everyone in Windsor Park who has helped to make such a wonderful place to live and I send them best wishes for the holiday season. Mr. Speaker: Order. Resume debate. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS ADJOURNED DEBATE (Eighth Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: Resume debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg) and the debate is open. Hon.

Scott Smith (Minist er of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade): Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure for me to stand in this House and speak to our Throne Speech that was introduced just a short time ago, but just before I do that, I would like to welcome everybody back to the session. Certainly we have eight new pages that I hope enjoy their tenure here with us in this House. I would also like to

December 2, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 365 welcome our two new members. Our member from Minto, it is a great pleasure for us to have that member in this House. He brings great respect of his community, and we are proud to have him on our side. I know, as well, the opposition has a great new member across the way from Turtle Mountain, and I do welcome those two into the House. * (15:20) This Throne Speech is truly about the building blocks that we have done ever since 1999, Mr. Speaker, year after year afte r year.

I believe that we are seeing the tangibles now come into effect, where you saw in the nineties, those dark, dark days of the nineties, a regression in Manitoba where you saw education slowly slipping down that drain. You saw the lack of investment in capital projects, in our educational system and, sadly, we saw a deterior- ation in one of the most critical elements that Manitoba has said over and over and over again is the key element in our province, and that is our health care. Mr. Speaker, our health care system is very precious to Manitobans.

Again, in the Throne Speech, it is reiterated where we will continue to build our health care system. We will go from the lack of investment in health care, where as early as the last election we saw the members opposite talking about investing 1 percent in an increase into our health care system. Let us truly look at that. Let us think about that. With that type of philosophy and that type of attitude, we would see the things that we saw in the dark days of the nineties. Mr.

Harry Schellenberg, Acting Speaker, in the Chair We would see promises to build hospitals in Brandon just before elections, shelved right after the election, and nothing being done, Mr. Acting Speaker. The people in Brandon, the people in the Westman community, and certainly in the southwest part of Manitoba, know over and over and over and over again of the broken promises from members opposite. Yet, they have the audacity to stand in here and say nothing has been done. Mr.

Acting Speaker, redevelopment of the Brandon Regional Health Centre and what we have for facilities, technology and services out in that region are well recognized by the people in Westman and certainly well recognized by people in Brandon and my constituency of Brandon-West. The MRI, for the first time in Brandon outside the city of Winnipeg, is such a benefit for people in Brandon and area, and certainly that is well recognized. Mr.

Acting Speaker, the simple facts in the nineties of the loss of doctors in the province of Manitoba is well documented: 116 lost doctors in the province of Manitoba through the nineties. Doctors are professionals who have a high-quality, high- standard education that takes seven and eight years to complete. Let us look at the facts. When you take doctors in our universities and the opposition members reducing the seating in that, it does not take people long to connect the dots.

When they reduced by 15 the number of seats that we had in Manitoba, people from Manitoba, some of the best minds and young rural doctors that we had potential to have in those seats eliminated. It was very evident right after '99 when we came into power, as a start of a building block, to bring that number up, bring that number back up to 85, now today at 87 and heading for 100. It is a systemic problem that you have to think more than a year down the road on, and unfor- tunately, members opposite talked about cost cuts, and I believe the Brandon Sun's quote was "one-trick ponies on taxation reduction." Mr.

Acting Speaker, you have to look at those systemic problems. You have to look at graduating nurses and professionals out of our facilities, out of our educational facilities and having those people come into the system that we have and building the morale, having the positive courses in line for those people, and we have done that. We have done it with nursing; we have done it with doctors. We are going to increase that again back up to 100 seats here, 200 seats here in Manitoba in a short period of time. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I must mention, as I have a short period of time here, the Association of Manitoba Municipalities. We had just completed the conference and had a lot of input, a number of meetings myself and many of the ministers, many of the MLAs in the Legislature here had the opportunity to meet with 198 or 200 rural municipality folks we have in the AMM, and listen to key elements that they see as positives. I am proud to say that one of the key concerns that they had over some, really tragedies, that we

366 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 2, 2004 have seen in rural Manitoba in the last while with the BSE, and some of the conditions that our producers have had to put up with here in the last few years in looking for some assist ance, certainly, on the educational side of their taxation. We had promised prior to the election that, in fact, we would reduce ESL on property on farmland by 5 percent per year over a period of time and reduce that to 20 percent. Mr. Acting Speaker, listening to AMM, listening to the past-president, Mr.

Stuart Briese, that said over and over again this is a key issue for us in all of rural Manitoba, it is something that we think is critical. There are great steps that have been made on ESL. Certainly, with the $100-million overhaul reduction we will see that ESL is on target, but there is ESL on the farm property. Is there something we can do? We heard that over and over again. Mr. Acting Speaker, I am proud to say that, in fact, 33 percent in the Throne Speech was announced that we would reduce this year. In fact, we have it in 2004 and assist the producers or farmers out there. That was well received.

That is some $13 million in reductions. We are proud of that as a government. Again, to expand on that, another 17 percent is going into our budget into next year for a reduction in six months, the largest reduction on farm taxation property on the school taxation, on the ESL, in Manitoba's history. Mr. Acting Speaker, when we do that, that $20 million back into the hands imme- diately of those folks is certainly well received. Mr. Acting Speaker, I am proud of that. I am proud that our government had the ability to do that. We had that as a key priority in our Throne Speech.

As well, I can tell you when you look at the growth in Manitoba, and members opposite want to toss around numbers that truly do not reflect numbers that are real out there in our community. Mr. Acting Speaker, the economy is expected to grow in Manitoba by some 2.7 percent in 2004, certainly notwithstanding a difficult year, but ahead of what we are seeing in many parts of the rest of Canada. Manitoba's inflation rate is 1.5 percent, among the lowest in Canada, and, in fact, lower than the Canadian average of 1.7 percent. The unemployment rate in Manitoba is 5.4 percent, the second lowest in Canada.

In the first months of 2004, average weekly earnings have increased 4.9 percent compared to 1.7 percent for the rest of Canada. Now, Mr. Acting Speaker, we know that there are areas in Manitoba that are having difficulties. We know that our producers are having difficulties, hit with the BSE and some of the weather conditions that we have had, the early frost and some of the crop losses that we have seen. We have addressed that by putting tangible dollars in a big way back into those communities. I can tell you when you look at the housing, starts are up 11.1 compared to 9.6 for the rest of Canada.

Manitobans in every community all across Manitoba realize growth when they see it. When they are walking down the street, they see new vital growth on every street corner. You do not have to sit around the kitchen tables of Manitobans and try to convince them that things are gloom and doom like the members opposite have done over the last period of time. Things are getting better in Manitoba than they have been since the early 1980s. There are more people coming to Manitoba now than we have seen since the early eighties. Mr.

Acting Speaker, the immigration policies that we are following here in the province of Manitoba recognize right across Canada as being very, very well established and set up. I congratulate our members on this side of the House. That, again, was in the Throne Speech and certainly that is something we are going to continue to build on. It is something that is critically important for all Manitobans. When you are on the soccer field as a parent, and you are sitting there and you are listening to people generally, people do have issues always. We all hear that as MLAs.

We hear constantly some of the things that are concerns for people in our constituencies and we all listen to that. But the general feel, Mr. Acting Speaker, and the feel in this Throne Speech is the building blocks are working. It is now moving Manitoba in a direction that is positive. As our Premier (Mr. Doer) likes to say, "The should-have, could-have, would-have party" on the other side, the only thing they can say is, "That is not fast enough." Mr. Acting Speaker, let us think about that. They did not do it, and we are doing it. We are moving ahead, and we are building.

Those key building blocks are starting to gain momentum, and they are

December 2, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 367 starting to gain strength. Manitobans are recognizing in health, they are recogniz ing in education, they are recognizing it in their immigration policies, they are recognizing in many, many areas. I can tell you Manitoba, as the Throne Speech has mentioned, certainly is committed to negotiating with our bilateral agreement on the federal fuel tax. I can tell you the minister–and as I met as a minister in Toronto just a short time ago, November 12, I believe it was, with more colleagues that I have from across Canada, had an excellent conversation with Mr.

Goodale. * (15:30) I can tell you when we can work on a level like that, and we can get people working together in all the different provinces, we can take that to the federal government and we can say, "You know what? We have identified these priorities in Manitoba, leading that, in Manitoba, helping in that process to look at getting those fuel taxes back." Manitoba and our fuel tax and the building blocks that we had, $600 million into capital. When we talk about economic development, Mr.

Acting Speaker, we talk about our road systems in every part of the province of Manitoba, some 19 000 kilometres of road system throughout our province. The reduction in spending, terrible in the nineties and not addressing issues in rural Manitoba, was recognized. Mr. Acting Speaker, we have increased that budget over 10 percent, year after year after year, up to $120 million in capital expenditures in the province to make those connections. We made those connections with the University of the North, the connections with the road systems in the North.

Many of the members on the other side have got up and spoken about their rural communities, and of course, very important for the members on the other side, I know. The members on the other side are from Winnipeg, many of them, and certainly this will go for Winnipeg, but not much have I heard. I am talking about the big piece of Manitoba, and that is rural Manitoba and the expenditures that we are putting into rural Manitoba.

The connection now with the University of the North, a building block in every society, or it should be, in connecting people who are in remote and rural northern communities, is well received. Again, in the Throne Speech, I know many, many of us in this House have issues they would like to raise, they have things they would like to say on the Throne Speech, and I am sure members opposite will not be voting against those types of initiatives. I am sure, Mr.

Acting Speaker, that there will be a number of members on the opposite side who will say this Throne Speech, these things committed, the member from Emerson and others I know will be saying What a great reduction to farmers in our communities in getting that money back on their educational taxes. What a great step forward. What a great step forward on your health care. What a great step forward in many ways, building those building blocks. I know that in caucus people talk about support or not supporting, and I can tell you– The Acting Speaker (M r. Schellenberg): Order, please, on a point of order.

Point of Order Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): I just want to assure the minister, when he is rising and speaking, that we will support the 33% reduction in tax; however, I want to also make note that they increased the education tax to rural Manitoba by 161 percent before they called the reduction. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Schellenberg): There is no point of order. It is a dispute of the facts. * * * Mr. Smith: Mr. Acting Speaker, this government is clear and decisive in the actions that we take.

Manitobans know that, as we move ahead, you are not going to see those double-digit increases on the education side, some 126 percent over a period of time, in the Interlake, I believe, and up in the Gimli area. It is not a shell game, shuffling things around, as the members opposite had done many times on farm tax reductions and putting ESL certainly on some of the buildings on the farms, but a true reduction back to our producers, back to the farm gate, back to rural communities.

I can tell you we are proud of the building blocks, we are proud of year after year, doing in bite- size pieces, in a way that is affordable. It is a way that we can do it year after year sustainably, and it is a way that we can show each and every part of Manitoba that it is critical to us to make sure all Manitobans are represented equally. We continue to do that in the economic development plans that we

368 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 2, 2004 have had, and you are seei ng them build year after year, more people coming to Manitoba, more young people staying in Manitoba, 13 000 new students into our post-secondary education system here in the province. Mr. Acting Speaker, key education. Now, members opposite might not connect the dots, but in every civilized society, a key building block in developing your plans in economic development is well-educated communities and work forces.

As we get into the technological age, in the age that we are in, and the biotechnology, which again is expanding in Manitoba, I am proud to say, those are critical, and it is being done, and it is being done by this government. Mr. Acting Speaker, I know that many of the members would like to put comments on the record and, I can tell you, if we only had a couple of hours each, I could continue to put things on the record.

But, in all fairness, I know members like the member from Fort Whyte and others would very much consider voting for this; however, in their caucus, they may have directed him in a different direction. I cannot see him voting agains t the positives we are seeing in the city of Winnipeg. I cannot see him voting against this on the reductions in taxation, the building blocks for education and the building blocks for health care. I am proud to say that this government, year after year in a surefooted way, has moved Manitoba ahead. It is recognized on the soccer field.

It is recognized by people out there at their kitchen tables. We are growing in Manitoba. We are continuing to grow. We are dealing with growth. I am proud to say that dealing with growth is the reverse of what we had in the nineties. Thank you very much. House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Acting Speaker, would you please canvass the House to see if there is agreement for the time frame for the filing of private members' resolutions and for the House leaders' selection of prioritized private members' resolutions to be waived and conducted at a time to be worked out between the House leaders? The Acting Speaker (Mr. Schellenberg): Is there agreement for the time frame for the filing of private members' resolutions and for the House leaders' selection of prioritized private members' resolutions be waived and conducted at a time to be worked out between the two House leaders? Is there agreement?

An Honourable Member: Can we read that again please? The Acting Speaker (Mr. Schellenberg): Is there agreement for the–excuse me, I will repeat the statement. Is there agreement for the time frame for the filing of private members' resolutions and for the House leaders' selection of prioritized private members' resolutions to be waived and conducted at a time to be worked out between the two House leaders? Is there agreement? [Agreed] The Acting Speaker (Mr. Schellenberg): We will continue our debate. Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Thank you very much, Mr. Acting Speaker.

It gives me great pleasure to rise and speak on this debate. It gives me great pleasure to also speak after the Member for Brandon West (Mr. Smith), w ho, I do not believe, in listening to his comments, stood in his place and apologized to the moms and the children in the Brandon area for the dismal service they are receiving under this government's watch. A government that has been in place for five years now, over five years, in the province and a government that committed back in 1999 to getting rid of hallway medicine, ending hallway medicine in six months with $15 million.

I am somewhat dismayed that the Member for Brandon West did not stand up for the people that he represents and the people in his region of the province and apologize to them for what is happening today. We had moms and children that travelled all the way from Brandon to come in today to send a message, a strong message to this government, that they will no longer tolerate the kind of second-class treatment they have been receiving under this government's watch. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I have to say that I was somewhat disappointed, and I am sure that the people in Brandon and the Brandon area will be very disappointed too that the member from Brandon West could not stand up in his place in the House today, and apologize and commit to them that he

December 2, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 369 would talk to his Premier (Mr. Doer) and talk to his Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) and try to get some positive solutions. Instead he neglected to even mention the dismal services that are available to children in his city and his region. But, Mr. Acting Speaker, I, first of all before I get into other comments, would like to welcome the pages to the Legislature. I know that they have already experienced some unusual activity.

There is never a dull moment in this Legislature, and I am sure that they are all up for the challenge, and they will have a growing, learning experience over the next year. * (15:40) I also want to welcome all of the new interns that have joined both the New Democratic and the Progressive Conservative caucuses. I know the ones in our caucus are working extremely hard. They are committed, very intelligent, energetic young people. I hope that they, too, on both sides, will get the kind of experience that they anticipated they would when they applied for the program, and wish them all well. Mr.

Acting Speaker, we hear comments from every speaker on the government side of the House on what we might be voting against when we vote against this Throne Speech. Members of the govern- ment side of the House had an opportunity to vote with us just yesterday, and I would just like to read into the record today and make a few comments on what this government voted against. They voted against an amendment that I think really would have held this government's feet to the fire. They have made commitments and they have made promises over the years that they have not lived up to.

I think it is incumbent upon Manitobans to know that we are not going to vote to support them when they have not lived up to the promises that they have made over the last five years. One of the biggest issues for me, Mr. Acting Speaker, is the issue that we have the dubious distinction today of being the only have-not province in western Canada. You tell me whether that is something we should support and something we should vote for. Absolutely not.

It is not something that I want left as a legacy to my children, and I would hope members on the government side would not want to leave that kind of legacy to the next generation. But you know, that seems to be the socialist way in Manitoba. We have a Premier that stands up, wears his Tory blue suit and pretends to be a friend of the private sector and a friend of business. We know that his policies and his only economic strategy is to go tin cup in hand to Ottawa to beg for more money, because he does not have the capacity to deal with the issues of growing our province. Mr.

Acting Speaker, there has been $500 million more in revenue in the province of Manitoba, $1.5 billion more since his government took office. Yet we have to go begging day after day after day to the federal government saying, "You are not giving us enough. We are the poor cousins in Manitoba. We come with a hand out. We are not looking at how we can provide a hand-up to individuals. We just want more, just give us more and we will fix it all." Well, Mr. Acting Speaker, we have seen what this government has fixed with $1.5 billion of new revenue.

They spent every last penny and when they have run out, what have they done? They go to our Crown corporations like Manitoba Hydro and raid them. They say, "Hand over more money. Give us several millions more because we cannot manage with the $1.5 billion more that we have got. We need more." When they do not get enough, when they have not been able to take enough or raid Manitoba Hydro enough, they go to the ratepayers of Manitoba and the taxpayers, and they ask for more user fees. All we have seen is significan t increase year after year after year in backdoor taxation through increased user fees. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I know Manitobans are getting a little fed up. They are prouder than what the New Democratic government gives them credit for, and they believe that their government should try to live within their means and not keep gouging and asking the taxpayers to dig deeper into their pockets to support the spending habits that are out of control by this government. I know that the people in River East would not want me to support this Throne Speech when all of the promises that this government has made have not been fulfilled. Mr.

Acting Speaker, we made a commitment in the last election campaign to remove all education tax from property and from farmland. I have to admit, and we do not always want to be absolutely

370 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA D ecember 2, 2004 100% critical, but I have to admit that this govern- ment has taken a small step. I want you to know that the devastation that our rural communities are facing deserves and warrants 100% reduction of their property tax. Mr. Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair So, if anything, all I can say is that I am voting against them not going far enough to deal with the issues of the devastation that happened in our rural communities as a result of BSE and the weather conditions. I cannot support the little-too-late policies that this government has implemented.

We heard today of another devastation in rural Manitoba, and that is the closure of rural hospitals and the lack of services available for women, families and children in the Brandon area. This is not a laughing matter, and I think the Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) and the Premier (Mr. Doer) when they are meeting today should apologize profusely to those families and make a commitment to them, although we have heard commitments before and we have never heard them followed through on. That is the one thing. It is fine to make promises.

It is great to make promises, but quite frankly, when you do not follow through on those promises and people wait and wait for solutions, and the government thinks that they have lots of solutions. Instead of looking forward and planning in any significant way, they keep going back to the past. Well, there comes a point in time when you have been in government, and they have been in government for five years, that they have to at some point take some responsibility for some of the things that are happening in the province of Manitoba.

This is a government that wants to blame everyone else but themselves for the problems that exist in our health care system, for the problems that exist everywhere in our province. Mr. Deputy Speaker, one of the issues that I think just shows how dismal the track record of this government is, is looking at the administrative costs in the regional health authority. We do not have all the numbers in, and for some reason or other the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority has decided in their wisdom, I guess, because of government's insistence, not to share the information on what their administrative costs are.

What are they hiding? The administrative costs in the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority have doubled in the time that this government has been in power, but what are we seeing generally on the front lines in our health care system? We are seeing directives that say we cannot afford to call in a nurse if a nurse calls in sick. You tell me whether the dollars that have gone to administration, to building the bloated bureaucracy that this administration has created, if those dollars could not be better spent hiring a few more nurses on the front line. * (15:50) I do not understand the rationale.

We have a government that always talks about being the champion of the poor and the underprivileged. Well, what about being the champion for the front lines in our health care system, for the front lines that are worked and overworked and having to work over- time because there is not enough front-line staff?

Yet, this government would rather spend millions of dollars building a bureaucracy and paying senior officials in that bureaucra cy three hundred, four hundred, one-half a million dollars in salaries rather than allowing more nurses, more nurse's aides, more technicians to deal with the hands-on care that Manitobans need when they are sick and vulnerable. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I find it very disconcerting. Manitobans are having difficulty understanding where the priorities of this government are.

When it comes to the raid on our Crown corporation, Manitoba Hydro, I find that unprece- dented policy by this government, unprecedented. Again, I go back to the facts that this government has seen unprecedented growth in revenue, $1.5 billion more, but it does not seem to be enough to satisfy their spending appetite. We have seen, as a direct result of that raid of Manitoba Hydro, money that Manitoba Hydro had to go out to borrow in order to pay the government. We have seen Hydro rate increases of 10 percent. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, we do know, again, when we look at what the impact has had on Brandon, for instance, when a company in Brandon indicates that their hydro bill will increase so significantly that it will have an impact on their ability to continue to operate–we have heard those kinds of concerns. We know that many that are on fixed incomes live in apartment blocks th at are electrically heated. There is going to be a significant impact on seniors

December 2, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 371 that are on fixed incomes who will see their rents go up proportionately according to the increase in hydro rates. We will make sure that we let them know why that is happening. We will make sure that they understand clearly that it was because of the unprecedented raid that this government forced on M

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-3-9b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 3rd hansardpdf 9b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	0d49a317efa0f71fdd6a9901414c91d12d608ca9

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).