Ti me: 2:30 p.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA Wednesday, 27 February 1980 OPEN IN G PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK ER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Russell): Presenting Petitions .. Reaaing and Receiving Pe titions ..• Presenting Reports by Stanaing an<l Special Committees. MINISTE RIAL STATEM ENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Ministe r of Government Services. HO N. HAR RY J. ENNS (Lakesi<le): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a short Ministerial Statement to make. Copies are provi<le<l herewi th. Mr.

Speaker, I wish to make a statement that wi ll provi<le inf ormation to members of the House. Some of you will have noticed a satelli te ground receiver aish that has been moved on to the Legislative groun<ls on the east si<le of this buil<ling. For your infor mation, I woula like to explain that the <lish is to be used <luring the next ten <lays to aemons trate this new a<lVance<l telecommunica tions technology. The aemonstration will illustrate to us some of the expertise that has been <levelopea by Cana<lians in the satellite field .

The dish is owne<l by Tel estat Cana<la, a feaeral government agency, which is carrying out this demons tration in co-operation with the Manitoba Tele phone System. Si gnals receive<l from the dish will be <listributed over the internal wiring system of the Legislative Buil<ling. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that this demonstration is particularly significant at this time when the CRTC is about to hold hearings in the nee<l for expande<l television services in northern and remote communities. This matter is of prime concern to my government , ana will, I'm sure, be of great interest to members of the Legislature.

It is most app ropriate that this demons tration, which will take signals off a Cana<lian Anik satellite, should take place <luring the sitting of the Legislature. Several television sets throughout the building will be hooke<l up to receive the signals off the satelli te, including the party caucus rooms. The 15 foot dish will remain at its present loca tion on the Legislative grounds this week and next. The equipment is being ins talle<l now an<l the aemonstrat1on will be under way later this week. rm tola, Mr.

Speaker, that an official of Telestat Cana<la will be available next week to give members a aemonstration of this system, an<l to answer any questions that they may have. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I also have for <listribution a further technical book with respect to the equipment that is on the Legislative grounas. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Me mber for St . Vital. MR. D. JAME S WAL DING: Mr.

Speaker, we listene<l wi th consi<lerable interest to the Honourable Minister explaining what that rather strange shape was on the east si<le of the builaing today, ana we will look forwar<l to watching the quality of the signals from the points that the satellite can pick up. It's rather interesting to see that the government is showing some signs of interest in the future an<l is bringing its thinking out of the 19t h century into the 20 th century. I would just ask the Minister whether he has in fact been in contact with the CRT C as regard,ing the legality of pi cking up sign als from a satelli te?

I unaerstana there have been some consi<lerable concerns of the pirating of signals from satellites, an<l I woula ask hi m or perhaps the Attorney-Ge neral whether they have confir med that Mani toba is in a le gal position in doing this? I would also ask, on a perhaps less serious note, Mr. Speaker, whether the syste m is reversible and whether it's the inten tion of the government to send signa ls of our Question Period out to the satellite an<l hence to the rest of the worl<l? MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Ministe r of Natural Resources. - 109 -

Wednesday, 27 February 1980 HO N. BRIAN RA NSOM (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, I rise to bring to the attention of the House an error in Hansara which I think is most im portant ana shoula be correcte<l. It's in the thir<l line on page 93 of my speech last night, in which I referrea to the im partial fashion, Sir, in which you serve as Speaker of this House. It appears in Hansara as "partial". MR. SPEAKE R: Ma y I say to the Honourable Mini ster that the printing of Hansara comes un<ler my jurisdiction. The Honourable Ministe r of Finance. HON. DONA LD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr.

Speaker, I wantea to table some infor mation regarding the explosion of some gas facili ties in Alb erta ana proviae some informa tion on their possible effects on the utitlit ies within Manitoba. First of all, Mr. Speaker, I will pass these arouna. It will give more aetaile<l infor mation in the statement than what I will read, bu t in overall terms there is not cause for concern to the general public wi th regards to any heating requirements wi thin the province.

The inf ormation I gained a matter of a few minutes before coming into the House is also not include<l on the st at ement, but ap parently they feel that they can put in by pass facili ties by mi<lnight tonight and if they are successful, that all the flows shoula be back to normal within abou t 24 to 36 hours. Mr. Speaker, there is an outline here of all of the effects on all of the utilit ies. All of the interruptible supplies in the province at this point have been cut off.

The main line pressure has reduced, bu t there is no threat in terms of the firm energy supply requirements to regular and other heating custom ers at the present ti me. So, Mr. Speaker, this infor mation is passea on at this time. It appears that things are recti fying themselves satis factorily.

It was a very serious explosion and has caused a very vast area of damage in Alberta but the flows will be brought back with the peak-shaving abili ties that are contained along the line between here and the supply , ana it is expected that with the temporary rectific ations that they are hopeful to have in by mi<lnight, that it will be back wi thin 24 to 36 hours. MR . SPEAKE R: The Ho nourable Me mber for Brandon East. MR . LEON ARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Honourable Minis ter responsible for Energy for his statement.

Many Mani tobans were inaeed very concerned as members on this siae were this morning when they heard the news of this particular explosion. We are perhaps too dependent on natural gas in this particular province of ours, where I know a very high percentage of the households and businesses are depenaent on natural gas as a source of heat ana power. I would only suggest, Mr. Speaker, to the Honourable Ministe r that he an<l his aepartment may wish to consi<ler some time the possibilit y of developing a natural storage space for natural gas that I believe to be available in the Vi rden area of this province.

This is an area, a geological formation, I believe that could enable the gas utilities in Manitoba to store natural gas in some large amounts. This is some thing worthy of con sideration, particularly in terms of security of supply to Mani tobans who are depenaent on this source of fuel. Thank you. MR. SPEA K ER: Notices of Motion •.. INT RO DUCTIO N OF BILLS MR . SPEA K ER: The Honourable Me mber for Brandon East. MR . EVANS int roducea Bill No. 11 ,

an Act to incorporate The Bran<lon General Hospi tal Foundation. ORA L QUESTIONS MR . SPEA K ER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposi tion. MR. HO WA RD PAWL EY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Attorney-General. Would the Attorney-General proviae the house with a status report pertaining to the criminal prosecutions against one Kasser, in Austria? MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Attorney-General. - 11 0 -

Wednesday, 2 7 February 19 80 HON. GER ALD W .J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, that matter is still before the courts in Austria. MR. PAW LEY: As a supple mentary, would the Attorney-General also advise the Chamber as to the st atus of the proceedings involving ones, Zingre and Reiser, in Switzerland ? MR . MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, that matter is also still before the courts in Switzerland. MR .

PAW LEY: Would the Attorney-General advise the Chamber as to whether he can assure the House that the civil proceedings that were settled a short ti me ago, that that settle ment will not prejudice the outcome of the criminal proceedings as against ei ther Reiser, Zingre, Kasser , or any of the other indi viduals that are involved in the Churchill Forest Industry episode? MR . MERCI ER: Mr. Speaker, it was made very clear in the settlement agreement and in the announce ments that were made and in the negotiati ons be tween counsel, that the settlement was only a civil settlement. MR.

PAW LEY: Can the At torney-General adVise whether or not the legal counsel acting on behalf of the Province of Manitoba in Austria has provided assurance to the Attorney-General, and to his staff, that such a provision within the agreement is sufficient in order to ensure that crimi nal proceedings will no t be prejudiced by the com pletion of the earlier civil settle ment? MR . MERCI ER: Mr.

Speaker, counsel for the civil actions reviewed this matter with counsel involved in the criminal proceedin gs, both here in Wi nni peg with the special prosecu tor previously retained by the former government, and with crimi nal counsel in Austria, prior to any decision being made to enter into a civil agreement. MR . PAW LEY: Would the Attorney-General provide the Chamber with infor mation as to when the court proceedings are likely to take place and to be comple ted, on the basi s of the infor mation which he has received from his professional adVisers? MR. ME RCIER: Mr.

Speaker, the st atus of the criminal matter is that there was an appeal from the indi ctment by Mr. Kasser in Aus tria and that matter is still, as I understand it from counsel, still be fore the Court of Appeal in Austria. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Me mber for St . Johns. MR . SAUL CHE RNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to address a question to the Minister for Urban Affairs, who yesterday adVised me to look at an answer he gave on Page 22 of Hansard of last Friday , dealing wi th the gran ts to the city of Wi nni peg, ana invi tea me to find the answer to my question there.

Not having founa the answer to my question there, I woula now ask the Minis ter directly whether he will agree that the $58 million figure given last Frioay and the 12 percent incr ease referred to last Friday in the grants to Winnipeg, included the statutory amount which is payable to the city and to all municipalities unaer the Income Tax Act, the Provincial In co me Tax Act, and the Provincial Municipal Tax Sharing Act?

Would he confirm that in the figures he gave, were these statutory payments, which were not moneys paid by the (X'ovince but indeed were moneys for which the province only acted as a conduit, in payment to the municipalities? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. MR. ME RCIER: Mr. Speaker, as the Me mber for St. Johns will be aware, the Provincial Municipal Tax Sharing Act allows for a fund to be created by the im position of 2. 1 points of personal inco me tax and one of corporate tax. That fund is then dis tributed to municipali ties.

The manner in which that fund is ais tributed amongst municipali ties is decided upon by the provincial government. This year we revised the formula for dis tribution of those funds in order to all ow urban centres - approxi mately 35 urban centres outsiae the city of Wi nnipeg - ana the city of Winmpeg to receive a greater share of the increase in order - 111 -

Wednesday, 27 February 1980 to all ow for increased per capita costs that urban centres have with an incr eased level of services being required in most urban centres. The amount of the municipal tax sharing payments to the city of Winnipeg was incl uded in the figure I gave to the Me mber for St. Johns, but I point out to him that the increase 1s a result of a revised formula for distrib ution that was arrived at by the provincial government in order to accom modate the demandS of urban centres. MR. CHER NIACK: Mr .

Speaker, I thank the honourable Minister for having agreed that this amount which is a statutory payment was included in the grants which he alleged were given by the province to the municipality and I appreciate his confir ming that. Will he also confirm that the government has under the provincia l munici pal tax sharing act the need to provide the manner in which there shall be the allocation and dis tribution, but the government has no right whatsoever to wi thhold any portion of the moneys collected from the personal and corporate inco me tax? Wi ll he confir m that? MR. ME RCIE R: I would confirm that, Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for St . Johns with a final supple mentary. MR. CHE RNIACK: Thanks, Mr. Speaker, this is not a supple mentary but I think it need not be more than the one question.

Wi ll the Honourable Minister inf orm the House whether formally or info rmally the City of Wi nni peg has requested the government of Manitoba to accede to its right to impose taxation under the Provincial Municipal Tax Sharing Act on persons in the municipality who purchase or consume motel and hotel aecom modation or meals at a restaurant or dining room or liquor or on the transfer of land, and if they have requested this formally or infor mally could he infor m us as to the response by this government? MR . MERCI ER: Mr .

Speaker, there has been a great deal of discussi on of this subject matter going back to when the former government was in office when they did not accede to any of those requests for revenue sharing. As I understand the matter as it now standS, the council or a corn mi ttee of council is reviewing the various aspects or options for revenue sharing and will be making a specific request to our government at some ti me m the future. MR . CHE RNIACK: Mr. Speaker, thank you.

Just for clarification, did the honourable Minister answer as to whether or not this government has acceded to such a request, because he says that all that's being done now is an in-the-House sea rch by the municipa lity? MR . MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I indicated there has been a general discussion for a numbe r of years going back to the time of the former government wi th respect to this matter and again as I understand it a com mittee of counc il are reviewing the various options and will be pursuing the matter again in the very near future wi th our governme nt. MR.

SPEAKE R: The Honourable Me mber for Brandon East. MR. EV AN S: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to address a question to the Minister of Co-operative Development and ask the Min ister a question related to an answer he gave to the House yesterday wherein he stated Bohmer Box Limited of Ontario was among the five companies that bid on McKenzie Seeds and among those that were subsequently rejected. My question is, Mr.

Speaker, if the government saw fi t to reject the bid of Bohmer Box Limited last fall , on what basis would the government have to enter into further discussio ns and negotia tions wi th Bohmer Box Limited having had their bid rejected at one ti me? MR . SPEAKE R: The Honourable Minister of Fi tness and Amat eur Sport. HO N. ROBE RT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Well, Mr. Speaker, as I have mentioned on previous occasions, one of the pri me concerns is that that operation main tain the em ployment levels at Brandon and that that corn pany stays at Brandon.

In negotiations with people who are interested in purchasing that company, that is of paramount importance to this government , so any negotia tions with any company that can strengthen that particula r - 11 2 -

Weanesaay , 27 February 1980 aspect of any agreement, any partnership agreement or equity agreement, that is what we are concerne<l about. MR. EVANS: Yes, a supple mentary, Mr. Speaker. Can the Honourable Minister aavise whe ther Bohmer Box Limite<l imtiate<l the <liscussions or proposals, or <li<l the government, the Minister an<l his staff, go to Bohmer Box Limite<l? MR. BANMA N: Well, Mr.

Speaker , just to reiterate what I sa1<l several weeks ago when I was questioned by the me<lia with regar<ls to this particular matter, I have no hesitation in <lisclosing all the facts if an<l when a proposal is accepte<l by the government ana by the board of directors, bu t I don't think it serves a useful purpose for us to deal with this particular matter in the public forum. It won't help the em ployees, it won't help the company and it won't definit ely be in the best interests of the people of Manitoba. MR . SPEA K ER: The Honourable Me mber for Brandon East with a final supplementary. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, among the bi<ls was a bi<l proposed by the employees of the company. Could the Minis ter advise the House why the government woul<l no t be prepared the employees of McK enzie Seeds an opportunity to put forth a deal or a proposal at this ti me, having been among the five that were rejecte<l last fall , along wi th Bohmer Box? MR. BAN MA N: Mr.

Speaker, if the honourable member would care to rea<l what the Chairman of the Boar<l has said , what I have said continuou sly , and what other members on this side have reiterated, that we are open and looking at <lifferent proposals that people have put forward. To date, that particular group has not ma<le any eff ort to come forwar<l wi th any proposal.

So all I can say is that if you have any further specific questions with regards to the company, the Chairman of the Board wi ll be appearing be fore Economic Development Com mittee, at which ti me the member knows he is has full privilege to ask any questions he wishes. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Emerson. MR . AL BERT DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question to the Minister of Agricul ture. In October of 1977, our govern ment terminated the State Farm Program an<l developed policy for the sale of agricultural leased Crown lanas.

Coul<l the Ministe r indicate the numbe r of applicants that have been receive<l to date for purchase of these lanas. MR. SPEAK ER: The Hono urable Ministe r of Agriculture. HO N. JAMES E. DOW NEY (Arthur): Mr . Speaker, to the Me mber for Emerson, I don't have those specif ic nu mbers right wi th me now. I will mention them, however, later in my Throne Speech so that all the members of the House will know. But it has been a signif icant numbe r of people who have requested to buy that land. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Fort Rouge. MR S. JUNE WEST BURY (Fort Rouge): Mr.

Speaker, my question is adaresse<l to the Minister of Corrections.

In view of reports to the effect "That eleven robberies in Winnipeg might have been prevented or avoided if special help recommen<le<l by the Crown for a juvenile offender had been forthcoming, and if the offen<ler had been placed in one of the centres recommende<l at that time, and in view of the report that the Deputy Mimster delayed replying to the last of the requests until too late" - an<l I am quoting - will the Minis ter assure the House that he will con<luct an inves tigation into the manner in which the department deals with such recommendations an<l special requests for help? MR .

SPEA K ER: The Honourable Minister of Corrections. HO N. GEORG E MIN AKE R (St. James): Thank you very much, Mr . Speaker. To the Honourable Me mber for Fort Rouge, I can assure you that we are always reviewing our department with regards to how it handles probation cases an<l hoping to im prove them. For the informa tion of the honourable member, the indivi<lual in question was suspenaed from that - 11 3 -

We<Jnesday, 27 February 1980 particular charge and was under the probation officer for a previous case. Ana I can assure the honourable member that during the five mon ths that the individual was unaer probation care, he did not commit any more crim es. So the question of whether or not a probation service of that na ture is better or no t better than being in a group home has yet to be proved. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Membe r for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SA MUEL USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Ministe r of Community Services whether he can clarify for membe rs of the House, the government's position with respect to support for those day nurseries that have been oemed provincial aid over the last few years, whether they are now in a position to expect funding? rm talking specifically, Mr. Speaker, about those that had been excluded from the program, or applica tion denied in the last two years. MR. MI NA KE R: Mr.

Speaker, to the Honourable Me mber for Lac du Bonnet, as you have probably read in the statement that I presented to the House, we are reinforcing the existing day care centres that are presently providing this service to our co mmunities in Manitoba. We have offered them an increase of approximately 10 percent if they physically feel that it's going to be efficient for them. Any of those spaces that are not taken up will be offered to new facili ties that have no t been included in the program to <late.

In addition to that, there will be approxi mately, I think it's in the order of 50 spaces which wil l be related to family oay care centres that will be brand new spaces and will be offered to those that wish to come forward and apply. MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I woulo like to follow up with the question of how the Minister is going to decide on the priorities?

That is, which ins titu tions or which proposals are going to receive the attention on the basis of the Minis ter's considera tion, on the basis of date of applica tion, or are there a set of guidelines that will determine, or help the Minister de termine, the eligibility of applican ts? Because obviously, Mr. Speaker, if funos are limit ea, then it seems to me that to be fair, one has to have some syste matic means of approving applic ations that have been outstanding for some period of ti me. MR. MINAK ER: Mr.

Speaker, to the Honourable Me mber for Lac du Bonnet, I can assure you that when the spaces are made available and the extra ones that we have proposea, that one of the main criteria will be that of need, that where it appears that it can be neea and proportionately, hopefull y spread through the province where this need is presently situ ated. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister woulo confir m that the least that can be considered is that we have a regional alloca tion so that all regions of Manitoba will receive their fair share of any increases in the program, as opposed to the possibility in having all of the increases centered in one or two areas of the province ? MR. MIN AKE R: Mr.

Speaker, to the Honourable Me mber for Lac du Bonnet , for his infor mation the present dis tribution of spaces in the province, there are approxi mately 50 percent in the ci ty of Winnipeg, ano approximately 50 percent outside the city of Winnipeg , and are pretty well evenly proportioned at the present time, ano we would presume that this would follow with these new increased spaces. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minis ter of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, the Me mber for Lac du Bonnet directed a question regarding drivers' licences returns in the first three-quarters of 19 7 9/80 fiscal year, and questioned as to whether there was, in fact, a reduction in the inco me, or in the numbe r of drivers' licences involved. I took the question as notice, Mr.

Speaker, and the answer to it is that the apparent difference results from the changes in The Financial Administrat ion Act that were introouceo last year, whereby the refundS were attributed ano brought in <luring the given year in which they occurred, and as a result there is $886,0 00 of refunds that were included in this current fiscal year that would no t nor mally have been included.

So that, on a strictly comparable basi s, the returns from the drivers' licences woulo have been higher by that amount, and at roughly 4.6 percent above the same period in the year be fore, for a total of $6,0 12,000 .00. - 11 4 -

Weanesday, 27 February 1980 MR . SPEA K ER: The Honourable Me mber for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBR YDE : Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minis ter of Government Services. Since the Ministe r actually mentioned remote communities in his statement toaay, I wonder if he coula indi cate whether the provincial government is going to get involved in assisting to provide these kina of sa telli te or ground receivers for the remote corn muni ties? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minis ter of Government Services. MR . EN NS: Mr.

Speaker, if there are any particular policy decisio ns to be announ ced having to do with that matter, they will be announced in due course. I can indicate to the honourable member, as a northern me mber, that this government is very concerned and very interested in providing as many of the amenities to the northern ci tizens in this province that we can. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for The Pas with a supplementary. MR . McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker, I'll wait for the Ministe r to de mons trate the latter part of his statement. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if there are any other measures besides the ground receiving st ation tha t this government is willi ng to take to assist commun1ties that received their first channel and some that received their second channel under the previous ad minis tration, whether there are any other measures that they are willing to take to ass ist so me of the remote communities to get second TV channels up north? MR . EN NS: Mr.

Speaker, I am proud to be still part of the aaminist rat1on that, back in 1966, brought the first such amenities to northern Manitoba, ana I am pleased to be now a member of a government that will expand that servi ce in due course. The question of how and the type of technology to be used is a very complic ated one. The member, if he has studied the matter, will be aware of that.

There are jurisdi ctional questions that have to be answered with respect to the responsib ilities of the federal authorities in this matter, those pertaining to provincial au thorities, and I expect to have a great deal to do with these matters over the next period of ti me. MR . SPEA K ER: The Honourable Me mber for Wolseley. MR . ROBERT G. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minis ter of Energy and Mines. Would the Ministe r confirm that there has been success ful petroleum cruae oil discoveries and production along and just south of the 49t h Parallel in North Dakota?

Can the Ministe r confirm that at least one Am erican-owned oil company has capped wells which should be producing to help our balance of payments and cu t im ports in Mani toba? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Ministe r of Finance. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, maybe I'm perhaps not clear on the question. I think the member referred to wells that had been drilled south of the 49 th Parallel ? MR. WI LSON: Mr.

Speaker, my question was to find out if the Energy ana Mines Minister knew of the success ful petroleum and crude oil findS in North Dakota, just south ana along the 49 th Parallel, and then the suggestion to me that in Manitoba, one Americ an-owned petroleum company has oil wells that are cappea which could be pr oaucing to help our balance of payments. MR . CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, there have been so called deep wells south of the 49 th parallel in the United States that have brought some new hope for addea oil 01scover1es at greater depths in that area of the country.

There have been to this aate no discoveries at those aepths or in that formation in Mani toba or to my knowlege in Saskatchewan ei ther. So there is nothing in Manitoba at this point in ti me that is of the same si gnfi cance to the discovery, I think, by Shell Oil some time ago about 30 miles away from the southwest corner of the province in the Uni ted States. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Wolseley with a supplementary. - 11 5 -

Wednesday, 27 February 1980 MR . WI LSON: I wonder then, Mr. Speaker , if the Minister could assure the House he will investigate and report back that he is satis fied that our support of the petroleum industry and orderly sale of oil leases is taking place in an oroerly fashion, ana I wonder if he coula supply the House wi th the numbe r of exproaucing wells that are now capped in Mani toba. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I would refer the member to the examination of the Estim ates for the department for any further infor mation. MR . SPEA KE R: The Honourable Me mber for Seven Oaks. MR . SAUL A. MILL ER: Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of Community Services: I wonder whether the Minister could advise whether the $1. 00 extra charge which will apply to the day care cen tres, whether they will also apply to the family oay care operations ? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. MR. MIN AK ER: Mr. Speaker, yes they will. MR. MILLER: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder whether the Minister shares my concern or whether he is not concerned of the possibili ty that because of the aooi tional moneys which can be made by operators of day care operations by charging that extra over and above the per diem, the recognizeo established per diem, that they may indeeo be pushing ano squeezing out people who need the day care facility bu t are of moderate or low inco me. MR. MIN AK ER: Mr.

Speaker, no I don't believe the charge will oo that and that is the reason why we did not increas e the maintenance grant for that very reason that we wanted to make sure that where the increase of the subsidy fee would be most attractive to those people who need it, that is those people with the low inco me, and if the honourable member recalls he was a Minis ter at the time, I believe, that the ini tial reasons for setting up the oay care centres were to assis t mothers who wished to go out and make a living rather than stay on family allowance, and that is one of the primary objectives of the day care cen tre facilities is to provide this service for the single parent who wants to go out and earn an inco me rather than stay on we lfare.

So that we feel in most cases that the day care centres will not charge that extra dollar because they probably will lose a lot of their clients and if they lose their clients they will lose their subsidi zed space as well. MR. MILLER: Since I don't have unli mited ti me for questions, I can't explore with the Minister the st atement he made with regard to maintenance fees of the $500 paid to the day care operations. Mr.

Speaker, doesn't the Minister realize that the amount that the government would pay for maintena nce is totally unrelateo to the per diem charge, and if they had increased that there'd be no need to incr ease any per die m charge?

But apart from that isn't the Ministe r concerned that an operator of a oay care, family day care or group day care, faced with the choice of ha ving children whose parents can afford that extra $1.0 0 per day and therefore it could be $300 a year, would rather have children whose parents will pay more than children whose parents would pay less, ano isn't that an induce ment to cater to people who have the abili ty to pay ra ther than who need this service desperately but who are over that minimum welfare level which would qualify them for full support. MR. MINAK ER: Mr.

Speaker, that is a possibility bu t we oon't believe that that will happen because 50 percent of the spaces are subsioi zeo to some degree and the rule is that you just can't charge the non subsiaize d spaces $1 .00 more either. They have to be a unifor m rate that they charge to both people. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honourable Me mber for Wellington. MR . BRIAN CORRIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable Attorney-General, the opprobriu m of my caucus, Mr. Speaker. My question relates to public concerns tha t became evident as a result of the tragic death of Lyle Dean Enns last August - 11 6 -

Weanesday, 27 February 1980 30. Has the Attorney-General anything to report with respect to enabling amendments to the Fatality In quiries Act, particularly will the government be presenting legislatio n this Session that would require a mandatory inquest into the circu mstances of all police related deaths? MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: That matter is under consideration, Mr. Speaker . MR . CORRIN: Mr.

Speaker, if as the honourable Minis ter has previously been quotea in the media, the Minister feels that The Fatality Inquiries Act is too restrictive and precludes inquests being held while related cri minal charges exist will he then move to amend the Act so that in appropriate cases an inquest could take place prior to the completion of the hearing of a cri minal charge in the courts? MR . MERCIER: I indicated in my previous answer, Mr . Speaker, we are reviewing the present provisions of The Fatali ties Inquiries Act as they apply to these si tuations and that review has not yet been co mpleted. MR .

SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Well ington with a final supple mentary. MR . CORRIN: It's no t a supple mentary, Mr. Speaker, but it's to the Attorney-General. Has the government decided whether to implement the Manitoba Police Commission Report tabled after the Frampt on inquiry calling for an independent inves tigation unit attached to and under the authority of the Winnipeg Police Commission? MR . ME RCIER: Mr.

Speaker, that matter is also under consideration and we are in discussion with police organizations throughout the province, wi th the Winnipeg Police Commiss ion, the Mani toba Police Commission and a nu mber of other organizations, and I expect that review to be completed very shortly. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Seven Oaks. MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker, further to the Minister for Community Services, did I understand him correctly?

Di d he say he is not concerned or doesn't feel that there will be a squeezing out of children out of day care centres or place ments because the extra charge which is allowed over and above the standard per die m rate, that that extra charge would have to be charged to all the children in the facility? Is that what he said? MR . SPEA K ER: The Ho nourable Minister of Community Services. MR . MIN AK ER: I would be concerned if that happened but I don't believe it will happen.

I can assure the Honourable Me mber from Seven Oaks that we wil l be moni toring the si tuation very close and if anything like he sug gested was happening that we would correct the situ ation. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, the Ministe r didn't qui te answer my question because I believe he did suggest that he wasn't concerned because the extra charge would have to be universal, that is apply to everyone in the day care centre. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, that the extra charge cannot be, will not be shared by government.

It is a charge on the individ ual child over and above the established rate and so if that is what the Ministe r is depending on, Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether in fact he shouldn't check with his department and could convey to the House whether in fact that the department will be very careful to monitor the im pact of this new levy? MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for El mwood. MR . RUSSELL DO ERN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Attorney-General concerning the inquest into the death of Tara Ackla nd, a six-month-old girl who was killed in a natural gas explosion.

I would li ke to know whether he is satisfied wi th - 117 -

Wednesday, 27 February 1980 the inquest, in view of the fact that the major issue of what caused the gas connector to leak was ne ver determined and al'lo there was no answer as to why the flexible connectors were conde mned in 1961 and why they remained in service until 1978 . MR . SPEA K ER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I am concerned with that particular case beca use for some reason the lawyer for the family and the family itself did no t receive a notice of the inquest itself.

At the present ti me the Director of Prosecutions is review ing the inquest proceedings and the evidence at the inquest wi th the lawyer for the family and until that review is completed I can give no further response to the question and the probable result of that review. But I am awaiting a report from the Direc tor of Prosecutions as a result of his review of this case wi th the lawyer for the family and I hope to receive that very shortly. MR . DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask the Attorney-General if it isn't a sufficie nt condi tion, the mere fact that the parents were not notified about the inquest nor called as wi tnesses, isn't ei ther one a sufficie nt condi tion to aut horize a secon<l inquest? MR . MER CIER: Well, that is precisely the matter that is being revie wed with the lawye r for the family , who has suggeste<l that further evidence coul<l have been brought before the inquest, an<l the Direc tor of Prosecutions is reviewing with him the exact eviaence that was produced be fore the inquest in or<ler to <letermine whether his suggestion is correct.

Certainly, Mr. Speaker, if it is shown that all of the evi<lence that was available was not be fore the inquest I expect that will be a very si gnific an t reason for possibly reopening the matter. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourabl e Me mber for Ross mere. MR . VI C SCHROE D ER: Yes, I have a question for the Attorney-Gene ral.

Can the Attorney-General confir m that the recent court trip to Hong Kong met with mixe<l success, that is, that the court party had a fine holi<la.y at public expense, and that because of the failure of the Crown to subpoena certain witnesses justice may not have been done an<l the charges were stayed ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR . MERCIE R: Mr. Speaker, I cannot con firm that the court party enjoyed a hollaay in Hong Kong.

The facts of the matter are that certain evi<lence was brought forward to our department , to the Crown attorneys involved, which justifiea, in their opinio n, the laying of certain charges. The department had two al ternatives in pursuing this particular matter, one was to bring a substantial nu mber of wi tnesses from Hong Kong to this province for examination; or secon<lly, for the Crown attor ney ana defence counsel involve<l, an<l court reporters, to go to Hong Kong to caretake Commission evidence.

The second alternative was at leas t 50 percent of the cost of bringing the witnesses from Hong Kong to Mani toba, an<l because it was a much cheaper alternative was the one which the department chose to pursue. Mr. Speaker, this matter is before the courts. I expect that this matter will be brought forward before the courts probably very early next week an<l a full explana tion of the matter will be provided by the Crown attorney to the court an<l to the counsel involve<l and to the accused invol ved, which is the proper manner and place for it to be brought forward. MR . SCHRO EDER: A su pplementary, Mr.

Speaker, to the Attorney-Gen eral. Can the Attorney-General confirm that that charge or that those charges had been staye<l? MR . MER CIER: No, I cannot, Mr. Speaker, because this matter has not been brought bac k to court in the city as I said. I expect that it will be brought before the courts very early next week and a full explanation of the matter will be made by the crown attorneys involved to the court and the accused and everyone involved. MR . SPEAK ER: The Honourable Me mber for Rossmere with a final supple mentary. - 11 8 -

Wednesday, 27 February 1980 MR . SCHROEDE R: Yes, can the Attorney-General confir m that the witnesses who should have been sub poenaed in Hong Kong were no t all subpoenaed and that that was one of the reasons for the problems? MR . MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I cannot conf irm that. I can only say again to the Me mber for Rossmere that the Crown attorneys involved will be providing the court wi th a full explanation of this ma tter very early next week. MR . SPEAK ER: Order please. The time for questions having expired, we will proceed with the Orders of the Day. THR ONE SPEECH DEBAT E MR.

SPEAK ER: On the Adjourned Debate on the Motion of the Honourable Member for River Heights and the Ame ndment thereto by the Honourable Leader of the Opposi tion - the Honourable Ministe r wi thout Portfolio. HON. ED McGILL (Brandon Wes t): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As this is my first opportunity in the Fourth Session of the 3l st Legislature, I join with my colleagues and others in the House who have already expressed their pleasure at your return to preside over proceedings in this Chamber.

I know that those duties are onerous from ti me to ti me and I trust that the actions of my colleagues on this side of the House, and indeed those on the other side wil l no t be such as to add to the burdens of your office. In this respect I am encouraged by li stening to the ann ual undertaking of my colleague, the Minis ter of Government Services, who has again undertaken not to transgress the rules of this House, and, Mr. Speaker, if the Minis ter of Government Services can make that undertaking I am encouraged to do the same thing. May I also, Mr.

Speaker, add my words of co mmendation to those already expressed to the Mover and the Seconder of the Proposed Motion for an Address to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. The Se conder, the Honourable Me mber for Emerson, is not new to this House and so his talents are well known to the members and the message which he brought and his contrib ution to this debate was well received. The Mover, of course, 1s new.

He represents the Constituency of River Hei ghts, and he has, as my colleagues have already noted, indic a ted in his early remarks in this House that he has the skills that we have come to associate wi th the members who have represented that constituency in the past. I would also like to express my words of welcome to the other new members of the House. I was interested in the remarks of the Me mber for Elmwood, who was describing in glowmg terms the qualifi cations of the new Me mber for Rossmere. I noted that he stopped, Mr.

Speaker, just short of predicting that the new Me mber for Rossmere would be the next Governor-General of Canada, and rm sure that in his reservation at that point, the Me mber for Rossmere was much relieved. Nevertheless, I do expect, and this House expects that the me mber will make a contrib ution to the affairs and the busi ness of this House during his term and his taking his seat in the Chamber.

To the new Me mber for Fort Rouge, I'm sure she is busy in her own mind preparing a sui table res ponse to her predecessor in that seat, who, in rather colorful language has expressed his conception of the very ineffective role played by minority memberships in an elected Asse mbly. Mr.

Speaker, it's ra ther surprising to me that the former Me mber for Fort Rouge should have forgotten so soon, and if he was indeed reflecting his own frustration, his lonely po si tion in this House as the one member of the Liberal Party, and adopting the kind of metaphorical description of his inadequacy that he did in Vancouver a short ti me ago. But in spite of that, and leaving to the new Me mber the response which would be appropriate to Mr. Axworthy, we do welco me her to the House and we know that she will, in spite qf what Mr. Axworthy says, be more effect ive than perhaps he was. I'm sorry, Mr.

Speaker, that the Leader of the Opposition is attending to more urgent business at this ti me and is unable to be in his seat, but I did want to comment on his response to the Speech from the Throne and the amendment which he had proposed to the original motion.

I think in the earlie r remarks maae in this debate by the Minis ter of Government Services and others, and the Minis ter of Mines, there is now some question as to the reliability of statisti cal evidence that the Leader of the Opposi tion has used to support perhaps the first part of his amendment with respect to the numbers of businessmen ana others who have migrated out of the province of Mani toba. I think it was most im portant to - 11 9 -

Wednesday, 27 February 1980 the understanding of this House and to the reputation of previous charges made by membe rs opposi te that the numbe rs involved in outmigration from the province of Mani toba during the past two years are very much in line with those which have been average for the years of the last ten or twelve. Mr. Speaker, actually , as the Ministe r points out, they have been fewer in the las t two ye!lrs than the average for the las t ten or twelve years. The Leader of the Opposi tion, too, Mr.

Speaker, has avoided any real comment on those very many positive thrusts that have been mentioned in the Speech from the Throne and has contented himse lf wi th att empting to create a prophecy of declining prosperity for our province, and one in which he and other members opposite seem to be determined to predict and to provide proof that canno t be dis puted that such a prophecy will indeed take place. I'd like, Mr.

Speaker, in the ti me which I am permitted during the consideration of the Speech from the Throne and the amend ment thereto, to deal wi th some of the positive thrusts that are contained therein, and particularly as they relate to the western part of the province and the West Man area. I think there's no need to inform members of this House that the ci ty that I represent is the economic centre and the hub of western Mani toba. The prime indus try is, of course, agriculture.

I hope my colleague and the Ministe r of Agri cul ture will not feel that I am encroaching on his turf if I do make some remarks relative to the im portance of that primary industry and the way in which this government is recogniz ing its motive force and is determined to give the encouragement that is so necessary. According to the preli minary esti mates which we now have, Manitoba farmers are expected to receive a record total of $1 .4 million in farm cash receipts in 1980, and regrettably, Mr.

Speaker, rising costs will affect the realized net income, but the projected 1980 figure of $32 8 million will still be above the 1978 and the 1977 figures. The Speech from the Throne stressed our government's sup port for Mani toba's primary industry, and it outlined a nu mber of our co mmi tments. It outlined commitments such as our undertaking to press for imp rovements in the grain handling system, to make imp roveme nts to accom modate freight transfer from rail to highway, to help ensure that the agriculture sector is no t hurt by rail abandon ment.

In addition to accom modating an esti mated three percent increase in the overall traffic growth, the province will aid in offsetting impa ct on any branch line abandon ments, which of course, Mr. Speaker, the Asse mbly wi ll understand are those abandon ments which are due to the federal government decisions. Our government is prepared to fund enhanced programs to expand markets and marketing activit y for Mani toba's lives tock indus try, and Mr.

Speaker, I would remind the members that the li vestock indus try provides more than 20 percent of the total farm income, ana is second only to that portion of the total revenue from agriculture that is provided by wheat. This government wi ll continue wi th research into crops to provide addi tional value to the Manitoba Processing Indus try, and it contin ues to provide and make provision for water for liv estock and crop production under the Federal-Provincial Agri Water Program. In connection with agriculture, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to point out that this week, Mani toba members of the Canadian Seed Growers Associatio n will meet in Brandon for their ann ual look at developments in the seed growing industry. Highlights this year incl ude the report on Seed Can and crop losses. Seed Can, of course, is of vi tal im portance to the seed growers, as in some cases it is the only agency for certain seed varieties. Mr. Speaker, let me make just a few further comments on grain handling.

As the members are aware there was extensive discussion on the topic of the problems of Western Canadian agriculture at the First Ministe rs' Conference on the Econo my in November of 1978. The result of this meeting was an agreement on the Manitoba proposal that a meeting would be held at the earliest practi cal date to discuss urgent proble ms plaguing the grain transportation and the handling syste m. Our Premier took the initiative and hosted such a meeting in Wi nni peg in January of last year.

This was the beginning of a series of meetings between the First Minis ters of the four western pro vinces and the Federal Minis ter responsible for grain handling and transporation. Let's review some of the acco mp lishments of those meetings. Out of them, Mr. Speaker, came a firm commit ment that a second west coast grain shipping outlet would be undertaken with the establish ment of terminal facilities at Prince Rupert. This is a move considered as the key to unlocking the present congestion.

There was agreement on the expanded use of the Port of Churchill, made possible by new swi tching trackage. _ Opti mistic ally this could increase the present annual 25 million bushels handled to more than 50 million bushels a year. Ou t of these 'meetings, Mr. Speaker, came the establi shment of a national grain coordinator loca ted in Wi nni peg - Wi nnipeg, the cen tre of Canadian grain trade, and the coordinator has the authority and the responsibilty to achieve more efficient and reliable grain movement to export markets. - 120 -

Wednesday, 27 February 1980 The meetings by agreement wi th the Federal Minis ter will review the Federal Government's policies regarding the transfer of ownership of abandoned ri ghts-of-way. And the Federal Government through these meetings undertook to make money availa ble to lease and rehabili tate more than 2,000 grain hopper cars. Mr. Speaker, in the response by the Leader of the Opposition there was mention of Mc Kenzie Seeds in Brandon. All members of the House are aware of my personal and of our govern ment's commitme nt to keeping McKenzie Seeds in Brandon.

To pretend that McKenzie Seeos does not face serious financial proble ms is not to face the facts. Mc Kenzie Seeos is in need of refinancing. The co mpany is under-capi talized and is presently carrying debt obli gations in excess of $8 million. The 197 8 Financial Report of McKenzie Seeds indicated a working capi tal defi ci t of nearly $2 million. We will shortly have the 1979 Ann ual Report as soon as it is presented to the Standing Commi ttee on Economic Development and we will then be infor med on the results of the most recent years' operations.

While the decisio ns made by the present government concerning Mc Kenzie Seeds have not been easy, they have also been unavoidable. The co mpany without government backing, Mr. Speaker, would be bankrupt.T he government was faced wi th three alternatives. First, to keep the company as a government Crown-owned corporation and continue to run it with increasing large subsid ies eventually paid by the taxpayers of Manitoba. Or secondly , to seek private investment and recoup so me of the millions of taxpayers' dollars now involv ed. Or thirdly, to let the company si mply fold.

The government , of course, commit ted itself to keeping the company going and to keeping it in Brandon. Mr. Speaker, let me just remind the members briefly of some of the facts surrounding the government's actions in this connection. I beli eve it is im portant to set the record straight and to ensure that our debate on this topic is based on facts. In June of 1979, the government put out a call for tenders to see whether the under-capi talized plant could be refinanced wi thout addi tional injections of taxpayers' money.

At that time the Premier of Mani toba stressed the jobs at Mc Kenzie Seeds Limited must be retained in Brandon no matter who owns the company. Three condi tions were inc luded in the invi tation to tender for the firm. The three condi tions were that each bidder must first, submit a three-year marketing plan; second, give an undertaking to maintain the company's present level of employment at Brandon; and thirdly, to outline future expansion plans. Those condi tions, Mr. Speaker, were imposed in order that the jobs would be maintained and that the company and the plant would remain in Brandon.

The future growth and expansion of the plan t and an increase in job opportunities for the ci tizens of Brandon were of paramount im portance to this government. At the end of November 1979, the Manitoba government announced that all tenders to purchase the company had been rejected. None of the proposals was judged to be in the best in terests of the province. The government, as a single shareholder, will continue to seek a partner or aff iliati on as a means of ensuring the plant's continued operations, and the opportunities for expansion in Brandon. Another area, Mr.

Speaker, where the community of Brandon and the whole WestMan area has a most im portant interest and a continuing one is that of the educational field. And again the Leader of the Opposit ion overlooked what was an important positive policy commit ment by this government in respect to the imp rovement of post-secondary educations in the West Man area. Certainly the people of that area were pleased with the announ cement in the Throne Speech that Brandon's Assiniboine Community College would be expanded to provide additional post-secondary vocational educational opportunities.

This annoucement is in keeping wi th our government's commitme nt to maintaining and imp roving the sound educational base of the province. We recognize that our children and our grandchildren must be equipped wi th the skills and the abili ties to compete and succeed in an ever-changing and demanding world. MR. ENN S: And it is ever changing. MR . McGILL: And demanding. As a resident of Brandon I am pleased to say that the Assiniboine Community College has contribu ted to the quality of li fe in Brandon.

The suc cess of the Assiniboine Communit y College in meeting the demanas of the public is witnessed in the fact that enrolment at Assiniboine Community College was up in Septe mber 1979, a contrast to the overall decline in enrolment for Mani toba's three community coll eges. As of September of last year, Assiniboine College had 875 students enrolled in 33 full-ti me or apprenticeship courses, compared with 78 9 in 32 courses in the same ti me in 1978. The - 121 -

Wedn esday, 27 February 1980 two-year business administration course showed the greatest enrolment increase - to 125 this year from 87 the previous year. Mr. Speaker, I recall during the remarks and the contribution of the Minist er of Mines that the Member for Burrows said, "We ll what about jobs for all of these graduates of the coll eges?" He was not aware, of course, that there has been a recent provincial government survey whi ch indicates that ni ne out of every ten graduates from Manitoba's three communi ty coll eges are finding good paying jobs here in Manitoba. And that ratio, Mr.

Speaker, has not changed for several years. It is apparent that the economy is suffi ciently strong and bouyant to provide careers and bright futures for Manitoba's young men and women. The career successes of the stu<ly show that for many people, co mmunity colleges are a valid alternative to universities. The survey found that 90 percent of the two-year diploma gra<1uates, an<l 82 percent of the one-year certi ficate graduates have a training-related job, ana that an equally large proportion of all graduates were using their skills in their jobs.

About two-thirdS of all em ployed graduates found jobs in the same ci ty or town as their com munity college training. The fact that such a large proportion of em ployea graduates are able to find jobs in their own region and the region in which they took their training attests to the basic inherent strengths of our provincial economy. I have no doubt that with sound policies to gui<le our educa tional syste m, we will be able to equip our young people to take their place in the working world. Als o of pri mary interest and im portance in the economy of the WestM an area, Mr. Speaker, is the oil industry.

The years '78 and '79 wi tnessed new activity in Mani toba's oil-producing areas. There were stepped up sales and explorations on Crown lan<1. The petroleum industry activity in Mani toba during '79 is expected to result in exploration expendi tures of some $10 million. This exceeds the 9. 2 million reported for '78, which was the highest si nce the ini tial oil boo m of the early 195 0s. Twenty-five new wells had been drilled by mid-Dece mber, and that surpassed the yearly totals for the past ten years. It's expected that 14 of the wells wi ll be success ful oil producers.

The resurgence of the oil industry in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, is partly in response to inc reasing demand and di minishing supply wi thin our country. But it is equally due, if no t more importantly, Mr. Speaker, to the policies of this government towards the indus try, an<l I firmly beli eve that wi thout the changes in royalties an<l Crown lan<l leasing arrangements brought about under this government, that we would not be witnessing the resurgence of the oil indus try in western Manitoba.

In December, 1978 , our government passed regulatory amendments to provide for the rein troduction of Crown lease sales in Manit oba. A record $977 ,OOO was received from two sales held in 1979 for leases covering less than 40,000 acres. This compares 1.67 million collected from 69 sales held in Manitoba in the 17 -year period be tween 1954 and 19 71. The previous record year was 1955, when $585,000 was collected from more than 10, 000 acres. Three addi tional sales of leases and reservations of Crown-owned oil and natural gas ri ghts are scheduled to be held in 198 0.

The first is to be held March 5, in which 56,000 acres have been posted for bids by sealed tender. All parcels, Mr. Speaker, are located south and west of Brandon. The policies governing oil exploration in Manitoba are resulting in not a single cen t of taxpayers' money being expended in exploration. And the government is stil l receivi ng revenue from the sale of leases; and in those instances where producing wells are found, the government will continue to benef i t through the recovery of royalties on the oil produce<!. And, Mr. Speaker, those revenues to the province are signif icant.

It's esti mate<! that Mani toba's oil production for 19 79 from abou t 700 producing wells will be approximately 3.65 million barrels valued at more than $48 mi llion. The province will coll ect about $1 1 million in revenue through Crown royalties and mineral taxes, while private mineral owners will receive approxi mately 3.7 million in net royal ties. In sum mary, Mr.

Speaker, the Conservative government's action in providing security of tender has resulted in renewed interest in oil exploration in Mani toba, and has create<! a co mpetitive bidding si tuation which has benefited both the industry and the province. Another area of interest is in that of corrections in the West Man area. We had, Mr. Speaker, the offi cial opening of the new Brandon Correctional Institution in November, 1979 by Health and Community Services Minis ter and then Community Services Minister, the Hon ourable Bud Sherman. A permanent staff of 48 will operate the 6.9 million dollar insti tution.

The new ins titution will replace the present outmoded stone jail building which, when erected in 1883 - that was the year after the incorporation of the City of Brandon, - 122 -

Wednesday, 27 February 1980 which members may not know beca me an instant city in 18 82. I suppose it's a comment on the ti mes that the first building of any really substantial nature was a jail, a year after the incorpora tion of the City of Brandon. The old insti tution is in the southeast part of the City of Brandon, and the new institut ion is in the northeast part, not many kilo meters from the original site of the first settlement of Grana Valley which wa<> across the river from the present City of Brandon. The new insti tution has a cap acity for 140 in mates. Mr.

Speaker, our society has come a long way si nce the first jail was erected in the last century in Brandon, and enli ghtenea atti tudes have led to the new approaches which will be taken in relations between correctional offi cers ana the inmates. It's intended that selected staff members will work with groups of inmates through the period of sentence, from escorting in mates to meals, to counselling and helping inma tes to adjust to li fe wi thin the institution. A group of ten experienced correctional offi cers who will be called ''living unit offi cers" have been specia lly trained for this work.

Besides counselling, programs available to inma tes will include lif eskill programs, acade mic instruction - which will be arranged, incid entally, through Assiniboine Community College - and recreation and sport programs .• There will also be pre-release programs, under which in mates will be able to work or study in the community under supervision. It's with some pride, Mr. Speaker, that I note that the Minister of Health has indicated that Brandon has always been receptive as a community to these types of programs.

The insti tution also contains a gymnasi um, and in keeping wi th policies to maximize the eff ic ient use of these facili ties, it is hopea that the gymnasi um will be available to residents of the Brandon Men tal Health Centre and to community organizations for the han<licappe<l. Mr. Speaker, in view of the comments of the Leader of the Opposi tion, that we are not doing much to assist small businesses, I should remind him again of the Enterprise Development Centre which has been provided in the City of Brandon - an<l this, in keeping with Brandon's role as the economic hub of western Manitoba.

The new centre will be built in Brandon to serve sma ll businesses throughout western Mani toba. A total of $1 .7 million has been allocated for the operation of this centre. Our government, as the previous governments for the last eight years <li<l not, recognizes the im portance of small business to the econo mic livelihood of this province. We are concerned that busi ness men benef i t from the government that they helped finance.

The conce pt behind the program, that is the Ente rprise Development Program , is to create a co mplete assis tance centre for the small businessma n, providing a full range of busi ness services, including the adVanced factory space and co-ordinating access to supp ort services available through selected federal agencies. And the centre will be guided by a board of nine directors made up of West Man businessmen. Mr. Speaker, I have dwelt at some length on some of the pri mary industries and the natural advantages that are part of the western areas of our province.

I think, in conclu ding, I would like to commend and salute the vibrant spir it of the people of western Mani toba. And this was so typi fied, Mr. Speaker, by the enthusias m and the dedication that helped make the Canada Wint er Ga mes in Brandon last February such a tremendous success. The hard work and the community spirit behind the organization of the 1979 Wi nter Ga mes typi fied the energy and drive behind the people of western Manitoba. Our entire nation witnessed the proud accomplishm ents of the games.

Brandon is now a place on the map that most Canadians recognize as the home of the highly success ful 1979 Jeux Canada Wint er Ga mes. Recognition of a job well <lone an<l a fine sports complex are the legacy left to the people of western Manitoba for their contribut ion to the success of these games. It is this true community spirit, Mr. Speaker, an<l the will to achieve an<l suc ceed that will ensure western Mani tobans a place in Mani toba's an<l in Canada's fu ture. So, Mr.

Speaker, the motion ana amendme nt to the motion for an aO<lress to His Honour by the Leader of the Opposit ion has ignored most, if not all the positive aspects of the message which Jlas been given to this Assembly . While the Golden Boy on the top of our Legislature contin ues to look towards the north - and indeed, there will be great developments in that part of our province - but I suggest also, Mr. Speaker, that he might cast an occas ional glance towards the western horizon where are the new developing strengths of our province, so me known and some, as yet, unknown. And we know, Mr.

Speaker, that wi th this natural adVantage, and wi th the spirit and zeal that has been demonstrated as recently as last year and the renewable resource of our people, the future of this province, and particularly of western Manit oba, is assured. Thank you. - 123 -

Wedn esaay, 27 February 1980 MR. SPEA KE R: The Honourable Me mber for Lac du Bonnet. MR . USKIW : Mr. Speaker, it's indeea a pleasure to be back here ana partici pate in the Throne Speech aebate, so mething that perhaps is somewhat aull in the first couple of years for new members of the opposi tion, after a change of government , but some thing that regen erates itself wi th the longevi ty of the government in power. Ana so I think, Mr.

Speaker, we fina ourselves in what I would consiaer to be a most opportune posi tion in the pol iti cal process, given the fact that we have had a couple of years of Tory aaminist ration under the premiership of Sterling Lyon. In looking at the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, one would have to assume that things are relatively good and well for Manitobans. And yet, Mr. Speaker, it really stretches the imagination to co me to that conclus ion, given all of the infor mation that has been thrown at Mani tobans and Canadians about our economic problems. Canada has economic proble ms, but certainly it's fair to say, Mr.

Speaker, that Mani toba's economic problems far overshadow those of the natio nal ones. And this is some thing that the present government is trying to sort of skim over in their Throne Speech with a lot of wording and not too much substance, Mr. Speaker. I think that if you examine the record of the las t two years, you will quickly conclude that what we've got is more rhetoric and very little activity to do some thing about the economic malaise that we are in. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, it doesn't have to come from members of this side of the House.

We are not the ones that have to point it out, because it has been poin ted out to members opposite by what I would consiaer to be very neutral organizat ions such as the Conference Board of Canada, and other people that have studied the, yes, the Toronto-Domi nion Bank and so on, that have studied the problems of Mani toba's economy. Now, Mr.

Speaker, in reading the Throne Speech, one finas that the government is continuing its attempt to indeed mislead the people of Manitoba into believ 'ing that things are on track and that just a li ttle longer and we will turn the right corner and we will be doing relatively well. Now, Mr. Speaker, I don't, as the newspaper headline inaicated the other day, I don't agree wi th the headline that the Premier has decided, his government has decided to relax and to try to sti mulate the Manitoba economy.

I beli eve that that particular im pression is left wi th the media and wi th the people of Mani toba very int entionally, calculated, Mr. Speaker, to buy one more year for the Cons ervative Party. It is really designed to camou flage the real problem that they find themselves in. They want to detract from the problems that they face on a aay-to-day basis because they know, Mr. Speaker, that they have short-changed every other body of government in Manitoba in the las t two years, and are continuing to short-change them this year, as is indi cative, Mr.

Speaker, if you follow through the st atements contained in this Throne Speech, and indeed, in the actions of the government to date. All of the government dollars that have been attached in terms of financial support servic es to programs within govern ment, and to school boards and to munici palities throughout the province, are dollars that are not keeping up wi th the inflatio n factor from year to year, Mr. Speaker.

So to the extent that that happens, there has to be nothing else but a ne t reduction of services and a net increase passed on, an in crease in taxes passed on to municipa l taxpayers and local governments throughout the province. The Minister of Health is probably the most capable one in that group, Mr.

Speaker, in trying to leave the im pression that the government is indeed concerned with problems of the communi ties, of the school boards, the munici pali ties, the hospi tal districts, the people that are promoting the nursing homes and so on; trying to leave the im pression that indeed, the Government of Mani toba is concerned wi th nothing more, Mr. Speaker, than headlines. And I want to just give you a short example of that because, Mr. Speaker, I know one can dwell on it throughout a 40 minute ti me period, which is allocated for members in the House.

But I would like to point out that a year ago - just as an example of what I am trying to point out to the members, the style of this government - a year ago the Minis ter of Health, under heavy questioning from this siae, indi cated that there would be certain nursing homes built in Manitoba, that permits had been issued for the construction of addi tional bed space, and so on - hospitals and nursing homes, Mr. Speaker. Well, Mr.

Speaker, we find that a year has passed and we have more headline s , that these are still yet to come, that the private entrepreneurs who were so ready and willing and who were given the permit to proceed a year ago, have deci ded that they will not proceea because the costs of money are such that it's not economic for them to build at the present time. Ana so we have another 12 month period during which ti me not a thing has been accom plished wi th - 124 -

Weanesday, 27 February 1980 respect to those needs in those specific communit ies which have been on the wai ting li st ana approved two or three years ago, Mr. Speaker. So that is the style of the government in this Throne Speech. They are going to continue to try to leave the im pression that they are going to do things. But, Mr. Speaker, I will beli eve those statements when I see the printed Esti mates and the dollars that are attached to each of the programs that are mentioned in the Throne Speech. The Throne Speech went on to suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that the government haa achieved two im portant things, and that is to get government out of fielas of activity that the government had no busi ness being in; and of course, the second being that they are managing the activi ties that they are in more prudently and more efficie ntly . Well, Mr. Speaker, if you look at what has taken place over the las t year alone, we fina that there is nothing in terms of management that one can be proud of , because we have today an economic si tuation in Manitoba which is much worse than it was a year ago.

If you look at all of the indicators produced by Stats Canada, and produced by the Conference Boara of Canada, you find that Manitoba is at the bottom rung of econo mic activit y in every fiela, as comparea to all the other provinces in Canada, Mr .. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, if you look at the statistics on Mani toba's economy, you will fina - and this is as late as January of this year - that in terms of percentage increase in real domestic product, in 197 1 constant dollars you will find that Manit oba is batting last amongst Canaaian provinces. --{Interjection)-- Yes, right at the bottom, Mr. Speaker, at 0.8.

If you look at private inves tment capi tal and repair by province, again you find the bottom of the rung, that's Mani toba, at 5.1 percent, a marginal increase which is below the inflatio n rate by far, Mr. Speaker. It is only half of the inflation factor. Now the members opposi te say that these figures are wrong - these are not my figures, Mr. Speaker. These are figures produced by Stats Canada and figures produced by the Conference Board of Canada.

If you look at 1979 over 1978 in terms of public investment, capi tal and repair by province , again you find Mani toba at the bottom of the lis t at a plus 1. 7 percent , ana so on. If you look at percentage change in retail sales, Mr. Speaker, you find Manitoba is up by 9.2 in infl ated dollar sales , which is another bottom of the list example of where we are in the economy. If you look at percentage change in housing starts over last year, Mr. Speaker, you find that Mani toba's housing starts are down by 46.6 percent. Mr.

Speaker, if you look at percentage change in the labour force you find that we are again at the lowest le vel with a plus 1.2 percent. And so it doesn't matter which industry you want to examine, Mr. Speaker, you find that our economic performance has never been worse in the last three decades as it has been in the las t two years, Mr. Speaker. So I believe that the government of Manitoba is indeed in very serious economic diffic ulty. It is in that position because of its ideological hangup, Mr. Speaker, and that is that the public shall not play a very large role in the economic affairs of this province.

On e of the things that I think should be pointed out however, Mr. Speaker, is notwi thstanding the restraint philosophy, the lack of involve ment philosophy, we fina that this government was not restrained whatever when it came to the point of trying to embarrass previous governments through se tting up of poli tical commissions, and I am referring to the Hydro Inquiry Commission, and then to attempt to use the report of that Commission as a justi fic ation for statements that were made by the Conservative Party in leaaing up to the election of 1977. Mr.

Speaker, it was very amusing to me to witness the Mini ster of Fina nce in a television interview wherein he threw in some figures on the the question of what he consiaered to be waste and mis management on the part of Hydro in the development of the Nels on River-Lake Wi nnipeg Hydro facili ties. He threw in figures of five to ei ght-hundrea million dollars, Mr. SpeakE;?r, but in doing so he left the im pression with the people of Mani toba that those figures were extracted from the Commission of Inquiry Report. Mr. Speaker, if you examine that report the exact opposite is what you will find.

The Commissioner concludes that it is not possible to determine any figure with respect to wastage or mismanagement or whatever the allegations would be on the part of the Conservative Party of Manitoba, that one coula not attribute amounts. So we have the spectacle of a government that is embarrassed by its own posi tion with respect to the election, with respect to the question of Hydro, with respect to the position of the Chairman of Hydro over the last several years, and in an attempt to im prove their image - 125 -

Wednesday, 27 February 1980 we witness the expenditure of two or three mill ion dollars, an expendi ture made not for the bene fi t of the people of Manitoba, but hopefully for the benefi t of the Conservative Party. Now, Mr. Speaker, I was most amuse<l at the ti me of the defeat of the Conservative Government in Ottawa because I think it is worth noting that the Premier of this province gave some real so-calle<l soun<l a<lVice to the incoming Prime Minis ter Joe Clark last May on what to do wi th respect to the Cana<lian economy, the examples that he was setting in Manitoba that shoul<l be followed nationally.

Ana, Mr. Speaker, the Premier of this province lost no time, no time in compli menting the Budget of the Clark government in Dece mber --(Interjection)- Well, yes, that is fair co mment, Mr. Speaker. The Me mber for St. Boniface suggests that the Premier of this province criti cize<l the Clark govern ment for not having been tougher with the Canadian people when it brought <lown its Bu<lget in December, a Budget which resulted in the <lefeat of the Cons ervative Government in Cana<la. It was interesting for me, Mr.

Speaker, to note during the course of the election ca mpaign that followed, that the Premier of Mani toba who was so willing to carry the Conservative flag into the ri<lings of Manitoba in order to re-elect an<l elect some new Conservative members to the House of Commons , we foun<l that it was diff ic ult to fin<l our Premier. In my travels we found that it was even suggeste<l that he wasn't wante<l by local Conservatives because he was a liability to the particular area of the province. --(Interjection)-- Well, Mr.

Speaker, for the benefi t of the Me mber for Sturgeon Creek, I am sure that he di<l not cross my path in the election campaign , in that my campaign was largely in the areas where we picked up additional seats. And the Minist er perhaps di<l not have an opportunit y to have the pleasure of my con tributio n in the area that he was involved in <luring that campaign, Mr. Speaker. But, Mr. Speaker, let's examine one of the main reasons why the Conservative Party of Canada lost the election just a few days ago.

The Conservative Party of Cana<la in taking its advice from this government felt that it had an opportunit y to bring <lown a tough Buaget on the Cana<lian people, felt that they were able to pass on huge price increases in energy onto the Canadian people. But, Mr. Speaker, while we recognize that that is inevi table, I believe it is fair to say that few Cana<lians truly belie ve that attack on energy was a reasonable proposal as a means of trying to ei ther re<luce the Fe<leral <lefici t or of financing the Mortgage Deductibility Program for new homeowners.

Most Cana<lians, I am sure, beli eve that that was the wrong approach in fis cal management in Cana<la. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is the kin<l of policy that this government supporte<l an<l <loes continue to support. But let us examine what it truly is, Mr. Speaker , because that Budget as it related to energy was an eli tist approach to the fiscal management of this country. Yes, it was an elitist approach because the effect of that Bu<lget was to transfer <lollars from ordinary middle-income people to the a<lvantage of higher-inco me people.

And if you just examine the 18c a gallon that was going to be pai<l by every <lriver of an automobile in Canada, you will fin<l that not all automobile <lrivers own homes, and therefore to the extent that their 18c a gallon contrib ute<l towar<ls the mortgage de<luctibi lit y feature of that Budget, they found themselves, Mr. Speaker, subsi<lizing someone who happens to own a home, someone who could afford a home, with a huge mortgage. -{Interjection)- Yes, with a huge mortgage, Mr. Speaker.

The people that coul<l not aff or<l a down payment on a house were in a position of having to make a contribut ion to the Government of Cana<la in order that the Government of Cana<la coul<l pass on that contributio n to so meone who alrea<ly was in the posi tion of home ownership. That was the absurdi ty of that one, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the fact is that there are tens of thousan<ls, there are mill ions of people that have no wish to own a home nor shoul<l they pay for mine, Mr. Speaker, or for yours - we should pay for our own.

There are many people who are not in a position to affor<l a home an<l perhaps never will be and who shouldn't be aske<l to contribute<l via the excise tax on gasoline for a deductibi lity on the mortgage interest rate. You see, that was the absur<lity of that Budget. It was asking people that were not in a position to afford a home to help finance the home of a person who already was in a position to af ford one. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the best thing that coul<l have been done for home ownership, the idea that everyone should have an oppo rtunity to own their home, the best thing that could have been done is that the interest rate could have been subsi<lize<l so that people in all levels of our economy ha<l an opportunity to purchase their home an<l to affor<l the payments on the mortgage. That is where the government's position shoul<l have been an<l that, Mr. Speaker, is some thing that would not be acce ptable to members opposi te, I appreciat e that. Mr.

Speaker, the Throne Speech deals very briefly with the question an<l the nee<l for setting up some sort of energy authority, an<l of course, I think it is virtually - well it can be - 126 -

Wednesday, 27 February 1980 said that that is really a motherhood position. I don't think that anyone would argue against setting up an energy au thority in order to manage the energy resources of our country, and certainly the provinces have a role to play in relation to the Government of Canada in energy management. Mr.

Speaker, I would hope that that authority that is set up by this govern ment is going to play a very meaningful role, but I don't beli eve it is going to happen , because again we have the problem of ideological hangup on the part of members opposite, that is, that for an energy au thority to do its job one would have to have fairly substantial regulatory powers. One would have to interfere, Mr. Speaker, if one is to do an adequate job in this respect, one would have to interfere in the market economy to effect a kind of energy conservation that is deemed to be necessary.

Now I would like to illus trate as an example, Mr. Speaker, the fact that today, or even after this energy au thority is establi shed, that I don't belie ve that that authority will be strong enough to prevent any group of people from making an unilateral decision in the use of any form of energy in this country. And, Mr. Speaker, be fore I be lieve that there is an energy shortage, I would have to face a si tuation where I would be in a position of having to apply to some board or to some au thority for the use of any form of energy. Unless we go that far, Mr.

Speaker, it is not a convincing argument, the argument that we have energy shortage problems. Let's take for instance a person who would want to invest ten or twenty million dollars in a hula hoop factory. Perhaps the Me mber for Morris might want to buila a hula hoop factory in Morris, Manitoba, in order that he might make a few dollars on the sale of hula hoops, Mr. Speaker, and give some employ ment to the people of Morris. Well, Mr. Speaker, first of all, we all know that hu la hoops are made out of petro chemicals.

Secondly we know that if the Minis ter wi thout Portfolio - no, I'm sorry, the Me mber for Morris, he has a portfolio; Consumer Affairs, yes, the Minis ter of Consumer Affairs - if the Ministe r decided he wa nted to bu ild this factory and to heat it with gas, there is no authority to say to him that hula hoops aren't the most im portant thing in our economy, and therefore he couldn 't use gas as a fuel to heat his factory. Now, Mr.

Speaker, perhaps he would want to use oil, But as I see it , there is nothing indica ted in the Throne Speech that would say that anyone who wants to bu ild a hula hoop factory cannot have oil in order to heat that factory. Yes, this is how ridic ulous, Mr. Speaker, the whole concept of the energy shortage is , because in essence so far they have only demonstrated that there is a desire for more revenue from energy use on the part of the shareholders of the companies, on the part of the provinces that have the energy , and on the part of the Canadian government who desire extra tax revenue.

But no one has come to grips wi th the question of what kind of energy should be used for what particular purpose. And so, Mr. Speaker, if there is any sense to an energy authority, then we have to have an au thority that would have enough power to deny to the Minis ter of Consumer Affai rs the use of energy that is in short supply if he wants to bu ild hula hoops in Manit oba. And that is the im portant aspect of energy conservation. Because unless we are in a posi tion to decide, Mr.

Speaker, that for certain purposes we wi ll use hydro energy, for other purposes we will use coal energy - unl ess we catalogue all of the energy sources that we have and decide how it's going to be consu med, and who may consume the ene rgy, and what agencies would not be given a pe rmit for its consum ption - unless we are prepared to do that, then there is no energy shortage, Mr. Speaker. It is merely a con-game ai med at convincing the Canadian people that they should pay more money for energy. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I can give you another example - and you know I don't fault anyone for wanting to do it -but let's assume the Ministe r of Consumer Affairs wanted to build a new home. And you know there are just two people in his family, the Minis ter and his wife, bu t for some unknown reason they sort of like a palatial atmosphere and they want to bui ld a home that has 5,000 square feet or 10,000 or 2 0,000, and have a handful of maids and butlers and so, on. Mr.

Speaker, there is no au thority that would say to the Minis ter of Consu mer Affairs that no, we can't give you 10, 000 or 10,000, 000 cubic feet of na tural gas next year to heat that mons trous mansion of yours. There is no one that would tell him that. He makes a unilat eral decision that he's going to hook up to the gas pipeline and consume as much energy as he wishes to consu me, as long as he can afford to do so. So what has that to do, Mr. Speaker, wi th energy conservation? It has absolut ely no thing to do with energey conservation. So it see ms to me, Mr.

Speaker, that what follows from that is that if we are going to have an energy authority, then we ought to have a building code that takes cognizance of the need to conserve energy. A building code that the construction indus try, in the building of - 127 -

Wedn esday, 27 February 1980 homes and the building of office structures and the building of factories, would have to recognize and would have to follow the rules and regulations in an ef fort to consu me less energy than we have been consuming to date. If you look at the skylin e, Mr. Speaker, of any major ci ty in Canada, it 's very obvious that there are structures built that have no regard whatever for energy consum ption. And certainly these are the kinds of areas where an energy authority could play a major role. But, Mr.

Speaker, the philosophy of that government would never tolerate that kind of intervention in the marketplace. And so it comes down to the larger question, Mr. Speaker - energy produc tion, energy consum ption. On the production end, unless we as Canadians, Mr. Speaker, are prepared to decide to control our own energy production, and unless we facilit ate ourselves wi th the mechanism to do so, then we are not going to insulate ourselves from the fluctuat ions of world energy pric es and the supply-de mand si tuation that arises internat ionally in oil production and supply . And so, Mr.

Speaker, I don't mind pointing out that if it was I that had to make the decision, that I wouldn't need any more than one oil company in Canada, and that oil company should be owned by the Canadian people. I have no hesitation whatever, Mr. Speaker, to suggest to you that there should be only one oil company in Canada - and it should be owned by the people of this country - to provide a service in the energy field for the people of this country . Mr.

Speaker, it 's tragic that we, a country that has almost self -sufficiency in energy, would allow forei gn intervention , decisio ns made by multi-nat ional companies, decisio ns made to effect the supply of energy to this country, when we are in a position to do something about it. It is truely tragic to wi tness that kind of thing occurring in Canada, and yet you see the former minist ers of the Clark government parading up and down Canada, co mparing Canada's energy si tuation wi th which countries, Mr. Speaker? Wi th Italy - they'll say look at the price they pay in Italy.

Look at the price of energy in Japan. Yes , on the campaign trail, countries that are virtually 100 percent im porting coun tries were used as com parisons with Canada in the energy pricing syste m. Now, Mr. Speaker, obviously the Conservative Party of Canada, the Conservative Party of Mani toba, are not going to face up to the reality that Canadians would pref er - and they have given them this message just very recently, Mr. Speaker - would prefer an energy authority that was controlled by the people of Canada and that would work for the people of Canada. So, Mr.

Speaker, I am not at all embarrassed, nor do I qualify my suggestion that in Canada we only need one energy com pany, and that is a company owned by the people of Canada. There is no room for any more, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to campaign from one end of this province to the other on that issue. I have no hesitation whatever. Mr.

Speaker, there is another area that I find lacking in the Throne Speech - and I oon't particularly fault this government , but I think I faul t all governments of the past - an area that has to be addressed and we never seem to get to that stage, and that is the need to set up a proper human resources development department, or branch of a department or authority. Because, Mr. Speaker, we have in our socie ty a situation where we are in fact, through the existing mechanis ms, helping to destroy people, Mr. Speaker.

And I refer to people who are able-bo died but who are not employeo, and who continue to exist only on the charity of society, Mr. Speaker. I refer to people who are the offspring of that group, who are born into that kind of sit uation, and where socie ty doesn't seem to have a mechanism to pull the m out of that environ ment and to give them an opportunity equal to that of other Mani tobans and other Canaoians. And it seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that what is needed here is an approach through a departme nt of government that would have as its goal the restoration of whole groups in our co mmunit y, Mr.

Speaker, to the point where they would be full partici pants in our economy to the point where they would not be dependent on society for their existence. And I suppose if one wants to look at statisti cs, one could in troduce all sorts of figures for different periods of ti me. But my perception of it is, Mr.

Speaker - and I beli eve it to be accurate - that each year we have a larger block of people who find themselves in that position and that the opportuni ties for those people become more ano more li mited , and we end up wit h a larger ghetto, if you like, of what I consider to be a sort of welfare syndrome where there is no escape from. And it seems to me if we have any since rity in trying to deal with that problem, then we have to approach it on the basis that where we have employable people, then governme nt has to play a role in beco ming, at mini mum, the em ployer of last resort, Mr. Speaker.

Govern ment has to become at mini mum the employer of last re sort, so - 12 8 -

Wednesday, 27 February 1980 that we don't allow people to fall into that trap of having nothing to do with their ti me but to wait for welf are moneys to come into their homes via the postman, or whatever. Mr. Speaker, the Minist er suggests that the welfare rolls are down. Whether they are down or up is irrelevant as far as I am concerned, Mr. Speaker. The fact is that there are tens of thousands of people who are not partici pating in the economy as they should. There is the statisti cal group, and there is the non-s tatisti cal group, Mr.

Speaker, those who are never mentioned in Stats Canada, and that's the chronically une mployed that never show up anywhere in terms of Sta ts Canada Reports or whatever. And that proble m is a growing one. It is concentrated in given areas of the province and in my opinion, Mr. Speaker, it's a ti me bo mb. It's a ti me bomb that should not be ignored, that we must address ourselves to, Mr.

Speaker, because we are dealing not only with our own selfish interest - and that being that we have to pay for the services that flow to those people - but we have to look upon it as a si tuation where we would want to bring those people into the fullest possible involve ment in the socia l econo mic system for their bene fit. And in that connec tion, Mr. Speaker, I would add the penal sys tem as well. And this is some thing that I know has been worked on for a nu mber of years, bu t it seems to me that we probably would be better off if we shut down most of our jails , Mr. Speaker.

I truly believe that a penal syste m can be set up that would be much less costly for the taxpayers of Mani toba, and yet much more effective in terms of rehabilitating the people that fall into the syste m. It see ms to me that one doesn't need to destroy a human being by means of setting up walls or bars or an overabundance of supervision. What one has to do is develop a syste m, Mr. Speaker, that allows for the individua ls that fall into the penal system to partici pate in the economy, bu t that the penalty that they would pay, Mr.

Speaker, would be that they would no t have the same financial rewards for their partici pation, that the inco me that they would earn would go towards paying for the cost of handling the syste m. These are the kinds of approaches that I would hope that our society would evolve towards, Mr. Speaker, in order that (

a) we remove the burdens from the taxpayers that are growing every day and beco ming much more diffi cult to deal wi th; and (

b) that we truly do a job in rehabi lit ating people that need rehabilitation. Mr. Speaker, I would hope that members opposite would take those last two suggestions more seriously perhaps than they would take some of the other co mments that I have made through the course of my speech, because indeed, Mr. Speaker, It is, I don't believe, a partisan issue. I believe it is a problem that all politic al parties recognize that is there, it 's a question of how one tries to cope wi th it . It's a problem that must be dealt wi th. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Mini ster of Consumer Affairs. MR .

JORGE NSON: Mr. Speaker, it 's always a pleasure to follow and to lis ten to the former Minis ter of Agriculture, wi th his convoluted thinking, his far-out theories of economics, but more than that - every statement he makes is in tended to drive the people of this country into one corner, and that is into a totalitaria n state. That is the thinking that's behind everything he has said here this afternoon, Mr. Speaker.

I'll say this for hi m - notwit hstanding the failures of the sys tem that he adVocates, he continu es to follow in that course, and I wonder what it is about a person of his kind that never seems to deviate, in spi te of all of the evidence to the contrary, he has a pretty thick skin in order to continue to beli eve the things that he tried to practise when he was on this sid e of the House. Sir, he made some reference to the First Minister, and the fact - or at least his assertion that he ne ver appeared in this province during the course of the recent elect ion campaign.

Well, my honourable friend should be one to know something about that, be cause in the course of the 1977 election, that Minis ter was not in evidence in any constituency across this country, certainly not in the rural areas. But Mr. Speaker, I sidetracked a little bit from the intent of my remarks because of the comments that were made by the former Ministe r of Agriculture, but I couldn't help bu t be st ruck by his st ate ment with respect to home ownership, and they differ markedly. It comes as a surprise to learn that there is somebody on that side of the House that believes in home ownership.

He should consul t wi th his colleague, the Me mber for St . Johns --(Interjection)­ well, the Member for St. Johns obviously owns his own house, but he doesn't beli eve that other people should. He doesn't believe that other people should. Well, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member said in this House, and I'll quote hi m: "There is a great deal of lip service played in this province to our people on all sides of this House that - 129 -

Wednesday, 27 February 1980 home ownership is desirable and should be encouraged." So I'd like to discsuss that for a few minutes, because I am not sure that that is right. MR. CHER NIA CK: What does that mean to you? MR . JORGEN SON: Well, that means to me that my honourable friend has some serious doubts about whether or not home ownership is a good thing. MR . EN NS: There is no doubt on this side. MR . JORGENSON: And there is obviously no doubt in the mind of the Me mber for Lac du Bonnet, who now has come out - in spit e of all his other assertions, he now believes that there should be home ownership.

I don't know how that particular state ment got into his remarks, because it 's contrary to everything else he said. Well, Mr. Speaker, I apologize for not offering the usual comments at this stage of our proceedings. I do want to offer my congratulations to you, Sir, in assuming your office, this high offic e in this Chamber. None of us makes your task any easier, and we've just seen a very recent example of that.

But I am satis fied, Sir, that your conduct of the affairs of this Chamber is ex emplary and that the im partialit y that you have shown - and I hope that is correctly recorded in Hansard - will demonstrate itself during the course of this session. I want to offer, also, my congratulations to the Me mber for River Heights and the Me mber for Emerson, who carried out their tasks in a manner that - particularly the Me mber for River Heights, who is a new member in this Chamber, which indicates that much can be expected from his contributio ns in this Chamber.

I only too well recall the first opportunity that I had in the House of Commons to perform that same task, and I have watched over the years the con tributions of maiden speeches in this Chamber, and I think after a while, one can pretty well judge how well a member is going to do in this Chamber si mply by lis tening to that maiden speech. You can pretty well predict his demise or his success in this Chamber by the way he conducts hi mself in that first effort. I say to the Me mber for River Heights, his will be an illustrious career in this Chamber. I also want to offer my congratulations to the new members.

I notic e that the Me mber for Fort Rouge - and I want to congratulate her for the winning of the election, and her admission to this Chamber. But I can't help bu t notice that in her contribution the other day, it sounded a great deal like the regurgi tations of the former Me mber for Fort Rouge, wi th one noti ceable difference, Sir, and that is that she coulon't possibly get as much on the record in the same space of ti me as the former Me mber for Fort Rouge used to do. I also notice that the speeches that she smuggles in during the Question Period are also reminiscent of another Me mber for Fort Rouge.

Now that is not a cri tici sm, I think that anyti me that anybody can do that at this early stage in the lif e in the Legislative Chamber, shows some great promise at bending rules. --{Interjection)-- Well, Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposit ion delivered of hi mself his contribut ion on Monday , and if there were to be any criticisms of the Speech from the Throne that it contained, as he suggested, cos metic approaches and warmed-over promises of the past, then most certainly his speec h can be characterized in that fashion, be cause it contained nothing new.

It contained the same old cliches, the same old half-truths or mis-trut hs that they have been uttering in the last two years, no thing new. And I want to quote a few examples of the statements that he made. I shoudn't say I want to quote them, because they were quoted the other day by the Minister of Mine s and Resources, and I think adequately dealt with by the Minis ter of Mines and Resources, I think adequately rebutted, so I won't repeat them.

But I do want to read into the record again, some of the policies that my honourable friends said that they were going to follow, in the unlikely event that they ever co me back on this side of the House. "We shall concen trate on short-term, long-term plann ing to generate employment and to cease outmigration and depopulation." Mr. Speaker, I wonder what that means? I suspect that what it means is that the kind of long-term plann ing that he's talking about is the kind of planning that is being abandoned in countries that have attempted it .

I'd li ke to quote a couple of passages from a speech that was made by a Professor Wal ter Ellis. The remarks of Professor Eltis, who is a Fellow of Exeter College in Oxford and visi ting Professor of Economics at the Universit y of Toronto - I searched a long time be fore I found the remarks of a professor that I thought were suitable, because there was no point in me attempting to quote the remarks of a bank manager or a bus iness man. I would think that my honourable friends opposite would pay close attention to what a university professor says, - 130 -

Wednesday, 27 February 1980 particularly the Me mber for Transcona. -{Interjection)- Yes, there are, but this particular one deals wi th the very things that my honourable friendS opposite are suggesting for this country, and he deals with them as they happened in other countries, the very same things that they're advocating. The Me mber for Lac du Bonnet was adVocating one oil company for Canada.

That's an interesting suggestion, bu t Professor Eltis deals with the inefficie ncy of natio nalizea industries in Great Britain, and he says that this can be illustrated very vividly from what happened in Britain because it is, in fact, possible to estimate the surpluses of marketed output that British co mpanies provided each year. From 1961 to 1977, British private sector com panies provided a rate of surplus for the finance of social welf are which averagea 35. 9 percent. The nationalized industries, or Crown corporations, provide a rate of surp lus which averaged only 11. l pe rcent.

This meant that if the whole British economy had been run like the private sector co mpanies, Britain could have had a welfare st ate of around 35 percent, which is roughly what Britain, in fact , had. If the whole economy had been run like the nationalized indus tries, Britain could have had a welfare state purchasing only 11 percent of total output. And my honourable frienas on that side of the House contin uously - well indeed, Sir, they ne ver open their mouths on that side of the House unless it's at taxpayers' expense - continu ously adVocating grea ter spending on this side of the House.

Greater spending, more money. But they never give a thought as to where that money is coming from. Oh, the Leader of the Opposit ion said, yes, we'll take it from the mining co mpanies; we'll take it from the pro fi ts of other companies. Well, the British tried that, and Denn is Healey , the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was forced to admit , at a Blackpool conference of the Labour Party one year - it was in 19 74 - that if all of the inco mes over $1 2,000 in Great Britain were taxed 100 percent, it would pay for running the govern ment for exactly 4 1/2 days.

Ana then he added, "i t would only happen once , because after that, the people would leave the country." -{Inter jection)- Professor Eltis said that if the whole economy had adopted the pricing and inves tment policies of the natio nalized indus tries pens ions, woula have had to have been cut by two-thiras, and two-thirds of the doctors, teachers, solaiers and policeman would have had to be sacked because the nationalized indus tries are only capable of supporting an 11 percent we lfare state. Then he goes on to point out the case of Sweden. And this is what he said abou t Sweden.

"As the real cost of labour rises, companies find it unprofi table to employ as many workers as before, so they cut employment, as it is widely agreed in Sweden that this is the government's duty to act as an em ployer of las t resort." Those were precisely the words that were uttered by the Me mber for Lac du Bonnet. All the people who have become un employed in industry are found kind of work in the publi c sec tor. This puts up taxation. The Swedes finance most of their public expenditure through taxation and not by printing money, and the higher taxes cause the workers to put up wages again.

This further rise in wages, the Director of the Insti tute of Internationa l Economic Studies pointed out that with Sweden's marginal tax rates, it now takes three percen t rise in wages to recover one percent of wages lost through hi gher taxes. It is still more workers sacked from private inaus try, and so it goes on. That, Mr. Speaker, is the kind of economy, that is the kind of a world, that my honourable friends are adVoca ting here. He also points out the example of New York; I won't go into that. I would invit e my honourable friends to read the speech.

But it won't make any dif ference to my honourable friends opposite, be cause they see m to have a death wi sh for this country. They seem to have a desire to destroy the economy. Talk about people who are dogmatic, who are oriented towards a philosophy that they can't shake themselves free of - my honourable friends are the classic example of that kind of a person. No matter how much evidence is presented to them, they continue to argue that the course of Socialism is the way to Utopia in this country. Here is a recent

article that came out of the Financial Post on February 16t h of this year. ,On the one hand, as Jamaic an - and this comes from Ja maica - as Jamaican academic Carl Stone sai d recen tly, "The charismatic , manly promises of a better li fe under a Socialist vision have beco me a nightmare of despair. Wit h 30 percent une mployment, a 50 percent devaluation in the past three years, and inflation running 35 to 47 percent, and wi th many of the most skilled im migrating, Jamaic a's outlook has gone f rom baa to worse.

So far the manly government's commit ment to Jamai canize the economy through extended public ownership has brought few signs of economic im provement. The public sector has been plagued by wave of labour unrest , which, combined with inefficient and someti mes corrupt management, has taken a heavy toll in the central service and other state-run enterprises." - 13 1 -

Wedn esday, 27 February 1980 That is the Utopia. And, you know, it is an interesting thing, during the course - and I am not going to dwell very long on that election campaign, but one of the remarks that was made by the Me mber for Lac du Bonnet couldn't help bu t escape my attention, his continued suggestion that we need one oil com pany in this com pany .

During the course of the election ca mpaign - as a matter of fact in the early part, on the 2 lst of December 19 79 - when the Prime Minister had suggested that he would distribute shares of PetroCan to the people of this country it brought an outburst of outrage on the part of the Leader of the Socialist Party in Ottawa. "It is totally irresponsible ", he cried. "It is nothing more than a clumsy device to save Joe Clark's politic al skin. Canadians are not fooled. They wil l see what Mr.

Clark is trying to buy them wi th their own money." But then, Sir, a li ttle bit la ter - that was on Dece mber 2l st, 19 79 - on Jan uary 4, 198 0, in Wi ndsor, on the question of whether the government should bail out the aili ng Chrysler Corporation, he said this: "If the government is going to provide financial assistance to Chrysler Co rporation, then they" - me aning the government - "should provide shares of that corporation to the Canadian people so that they can become the real owners." Now you see, that, Sir, is the kind of dichotomy that you find from my honourable friends , but it is not that really, be cause there is a method and there is a purpose in their utterances.

There is a purpose. Anything that is na tionalized , they don't want anybody to have a look at it. If it is nationalized, then it is there. But they will nationalize private co mpanies, they will gladly give away shares of somebody else's efforts, so that they will force them into a nationalized state as well. Well, you know, that raises another interesting subject - bankrupt Chrysler, and why did Chrysl er get that way.

It just refutes the argument just made by the Me mber for Lac du Bonnet, when he said what we need is an energy authority, an energy authority that will tell everybody how much gas they are going to use. They are going to have some bu reaucrats , some connoisseurs of energy running around alloca ting energy to every person in this country. They are sure going to cure the unem ployment problem in this country if they do that, because everybody will be doing that. That will be the bureaucracy to end all bureaucracies.

And the reason that Chrysler is in di ffic ulty is because they refused to accept the fact that people on this continent, be cause of rising energy prices, and because they knew that there were going to be problems, started to buy automobiles that consu med less gasoline. The import of automobiles from Japan and Ger many grew from a trickle within a period of about five years, to a greater nu mber than were being produced in this country. And for one reason - they were more economic al to run. They saved on gasoline.

And the Me mber for Lac du Bonnet tries to tell us, or tries to tell this Chamber, that the people of this country haven't got sense enough to know that. They have demonstrated in every way possible that they are keenly consciou s of the energy si tuation that we find ourselves in, and are prepared to do something about it . Homes that are being bu ilt today are being built wi th a view to energy conservation.

Ho mes that are being repaired, no t necessarily because there is a gover nment grant or a government loan available - a good many people are doing it on their own, or in recogni tion of the serious problem this country is faced with insofar as energy is concerned. We ll, Mr. Speaker , the Leader of the Opposit ion quoted at length his oft-repeated cl ai m that economic development in this coun try, or in this province , was not proceeding along in the way that he would like to see it continue.

And he began to talk again about the myth that was, I think, very adequately destroyed by the Minister of Mines and Resources last night. But while the Minis ter of Mines and Resources was speaking, I couldn't help but look at my honourable friend, the former Minister of Industry and Commerce, who now si ts in his seat - and I am happy to see hi m there, because when he was on this side of the House he had somewhat dif ferent views abou t how economic development should take place.

And you know, I like to see him in his seat, rejuvenated as he is, looking much younger than he did when he was on this side of the House, and it is a treatment, Sir, that perhaps more of us should enquire about. I don't know whether it's just because he is on that side of the House now and does no t have the worries that he used to have, but we are happy to see him with his aggressive personality, and the defence of his indefensible economics which, Mr. Speaker, changes from ti me to time. The remarks that he made when he was on this side of the House were not nearly the same as he makes now.

I am going to quote some of the remarks that my honourable friend made when he was a Mini ster of the Crown on this side of the House, and he was following a speech that was made by the former member for River Hei ghts, who had been attacking the government because there were population losses at that ti me, and because the performance of the economy was - 132 -

Wednesday, 27 February 1980 not as good as the former member for River He ights thought it should be, and inoeed they were quoting the same figures that are being quoted tooay, the si tuation is just reversed. Bu t here is what the Me mber for Branoon East had to say, and this is a statement that always precedes so meone who is unpre pared to speak and so speaks wi th convictio n because it comes from his heart, and from his heart alone. There was no data, no figures, no backup; it came from the heart, Sir. This is what he said, "I was not prepared to speak at this time." That is a good opening line.

"Although I was going to make a contribut ion to the Throne Speech Debate later this evening when I had the oata with me ••. " - he doesn't have any data, I remind you again, Sir, - "· •. however I can't refrain from making a f ew comments in reply to the former Minis ter of Industry and Commerce in his castigation of this government and our policies." He starts out well. "He asks what our policies are for development. I can assure hi m that they are being developed and they will be revealed very shortly." And they were, Mr.

Speaker, because in the Guidelines for the Seventies they were outlined, and at that ti me the Premie r's st ate ment at a meeting in St. Vi tal that two to one, two and one-half ti mes one formula, that was an economic development policy of the previous administ ration. "And they will be effect ive poli cies." They were effective, Sir, because they were effective enough to drive honourable gentlemen from this side of the House to that side of the House, and that is the best thing that could have happened to econo mic development in this coun try.

"They will not be" - and get this - "teddy boy philosophy." I don't know what my honourable friend meant by a teddy boy philosophy. He said, "A crude growth philosophy" --(Interjection)- "growth at any cost, growth at the cost of pollut ion, growth no matter whether they are low wage jobs, it doesn't matter. These will be our poli cy, will reflect a policy of' selective economic development which will raise the standard of living of the people of this province." A ringing declaration, Sir.

Now, he goes on to say this: "Now the definit ion of economic growth as espoused by my honourable friend from River Heights seems to me to be population increase. It is in evi table to me that the Honourable Me mber for River He ights, by economic growth he means population growth. And this obviously , as any econo mi st or any first year student of economics will tell you, is not the defini tion of economic growth. The defini tion .•• " --(Interjection)- He does do that. "The defini tion of econo mic growth is a rise in the standard of living of the people of an area surely.

It is an increas e in the average inco me of the people of the area, not an increase in the population, " says my honourable friend. Ana it is very ironic in this day and age of' over-population, of tensions caused by people being overly crowded in areas, that we are talking about bringing more and more people into a spec if ic area. In those days he wanted people to leave. He was inviting them to leave, Sir.

He goes on to say this, "This is not econo mic growth." I'll tell you, Sir, if there is one thing that has helped this province, and parti cularly the youth of this province, is that his elect ion to this Chamber has at least li mited his abili ty to inflict his views on the students that he teaches. This is not economic growth, he says, as a matter of fact , economic growth can be achieved by having fewer people in some ins tances rather than more people.

And then he makes this declaration, "and that's a lesson he should learn." That's from the Member for Brandon East, when he was on - don't forget - this side of the House. Bu t if he's interested in population growth, I can tell him that the population of the province did increase last year. Here's ano ther one. He says, ''but if he's interested in population growth, I can tell hi m that the population of the province did increase last year in spite of the baa wheat si tuation." Now the wheat drives him out. The province of Saskatchewan did realize a net loss of people.

The absolute level of' population in Sas katchewan did decline last year. They did. Ano I think they oeclinea by something like 2 5,000 people. Our population did increase. -{Interjection )-- Oh, that was the year 1969-70. That was the same year, Mr. Speaker, that was the same year, in 19 70, that our population declined by 9,2 07. --(Interjectio n)-- Now he says, 11rm not holding that out as any indica tion of growth. That is no t an indica tion of growth." But if he's interested in population, we can talk about that, too. Me tropolitan Winnipeg. The rate of increase of Metropolitan Win nipeg was high in 1969.

It was 2.2 percent last year over the previous year. This is the highest rate of population inc rease that Metropolitan Winnipeg has experienced for many, many a year. But, he says, "again I say this is not an indi cation of economic growth." But if my honourable friend is in terested in population statistics, he has it. Well, he says it's a good speech. rn say this, it 's an interesting one, because it certainly isn't what he's saying today. - 133 -

Wednesday, 27 February 1980 I don't know what he has learned or unlearned in the meanti me, bu t my honourable friend should remember his utterances of the past. And you know, Mr. Speaker, if there is any one suggestion I want to make to some of the new membe rs in this Chamber, they could find it a very useful exercise to dig back over the pas t into some of the speeches that were made by former Mi ni sters on this side of the House.

I would suggest to the Honourable Me mber for River Hei ghts that jobs at any cost - he refers to jobs, more jobs and more jobs, as though jobs are equivalent to motherhood and all the virtues of lif e - that jobs at any cost is not good enough. The most advanced indus trial areas of the world today, the Atlantic Seaboard in the Uni ted States and Japan , Japan is one of the most industrialized nations of the world. Oh yes, he has an admoni tion for those in the Fourth Estate. Japan is one of the most industrialized nations of the world, and I'd like the iress gallery to note this.

And scarce as they are in the gallery, I want to pass on those pearls of wisdom by my honourable friend: "Japan is one of the most populated, poll uted areas of the world; the most adVanced industrialized, s� alled industrialized na tions of the world, are those that are suf fering from the most pollu tion. It's their population that's suffering." And so he goes on. Well, Sir, --{Interjection)- well, now I am con founded. He said, "it was true then and it's true today." And yet my honourable friend swallowed hi mself. Does he not realize that? And he continues to do that.

It's an interesting exercise that my honourable friend, this metamorphosis that he goes through , this changing, chameleon-like, from an adVocate of no growth, to now , an advocate of super growth. --{Interjection)-- Well, I'm not going to try to repeat the state ments that were made here last ni ght by the Minis ter of Mines ano Resources. They won't get much attention, because statements that contain some truths very rarely get the kind of publici ty that they should be getting, because they don't sell news papers. MR. SPEAKE R: Order please. The Honourable Mini ster has five minutes. MR . JORGENSON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the performance of my honourable friends has been interesting, to say the leas t. Not the least of which, however, is their reiteration of a statement that is plas