ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature ollae Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Publl•hed under the authority of The Honourable D. Jame• Welding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 39A - 2:00 p.m., TUESDA Y, 5 APRIL, 1983. Prrnled by the Office of Ille 0.-is Prrn,.,. PrOYince ol --

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTE TT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOUR LAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOW SKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAW LEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PAR ASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW. Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Bonif ace Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Rad isson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Rus sell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Ross mere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 5 April, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. R EYLER: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Wolseley, that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I beg leave to file the Annual Report of the Ma nitoba Human Rights Commission for the year 19 82. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. Rental Increases - statistics MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable Minister of Housing. It follows on some questions that I placed with him yesterday. Mr.

Speaker, what action does the Minister intend to take to assist the tenants of a St. Boniface apartment block, who received an unexpected annual increase of 41 percent in their rent, as a result of a decision of a government-appointed Rent Regulation Review Panel on an app eal in which they were not a party? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, thank you. I'd like to thank the honourable member for giving me th is opportunity to clear up some of the circumstances surrounding this whole issue.

It was reported yesterday in the press that the landlord had applied for a 19 percent increase and received that. The landlord had, in fact, applied for an average increase of approximately 19 percent and in that application he had made it clear that he would like to equalize the rents being paid for like suites in his complex. The Rent Regulation Officer, after a thorough review of the information that was supplied by the landlord, rolled that increase back to 5.5 percent and allowed for equalization. Contrary, as well, to reports in the press yesterday, there was an ap peal to that decision.

The landlord did appeal the decision and I have a copy of that appeal request and the result was that the panel met, they listened to representations from both the landlord and the tenants, and the result was an approxi mately 9 percent increase granted to the landlord and an equalization. I should say, Mr.

Speaker, as well that both the landlord and the tenants who were present at the appeal hearing were desirous of having rents equalized, and although there was substantial hardship to one tenant in this case, I understand that tenant did contact the Rent Regulation Bureau, and it was made clear to her that there would be some flexibility with respect to the back rent that she owed at that point. The member will understand that part of the process is, that where a landlord makes an appeal, then by the nature of his appeal he opens up the entire block for a review and the appeal hearing is de novo. MR. G.

FILMON: Does the Minister, Mr. Speak er, consider it reasonable that where this particular tenant had been satisfied with the increase that the landlord had originally asked for with respect to her suite, should be brought into the whole net and had a potential 19 percent increase made a 41 percent increase, because of a rent regulation review panel making a decision that went across the board? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, while the tenant may have been satisfied, obviously the landlord wasn't, because the landlord appealed that decision. As well, Mr.

Speaker, I don't think anyone denied - in fact, the tenant in question indicated in the press that despite the 41 percent increase, she was more than satisfied that she had an acceptable rent. I don't know what more the appeal panel can do. They have met the requirements; they have reduced the overall rent increase from 19 to 9 percent; they have equalized as both the tenant and the landlord have requested, and in the final analysis the tenant has said, yes, my rent is still fair despite this increase.

They have, as well, agreed that the six hundred and some dollars should not have to be paid immediately and there is certainly a provision, I understand, been made between the landlord and tenant to arrange for a more appropriate repayment period. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, why then, if the Minister believes that the tenant has been satisfied, why is the tenant still pursuing this, even to the extent of writing the Ombudsman and asking for certain action to be taken? Obviously the tenant is not satisfied, so how does the Minister explain that? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Speaker, I didn't suggest that the tenant was satisfied. Of course, the tenant would 1400

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 have been satisfied if the rent hadn't increased. What I said was she still , by her own words, is satisfied that her rent is fair. I assume that if she understands that rent to be fair then I will accept her judgment that it is indeed fair. Of course, she would have preferred that equalizatio n had not occurred, but the landlord and other tenants in the block had suggested that it was a desirable thing to do and the Appeal Panel acquiesced to that request. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, is the Minister saying that under the NDP's highly touted rent controls that he considers a 41 percent increase in rents in one year to be a fair settlement and that a $612 retroactive settlement to one tenant in 30 days is a fair way to handle rent controls? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speak er, I did not say that a 41 percent increase was fair. This is a highly unusual situation. All of the special circumstances are taken into consideration. She is not being required to pay back the entire amount in one lump sum.

I would hope that it would be understood and clearly, exceptional cases do not prove the rule in this instance. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. Grain prices - reduced MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speak er, I have a question to the Honourable Minister of Agriculture.

In view of the Federal Government's announcement today that the initia l grain prices for grain producers will be substantially lower than they were last year, will the Minister of Agriculture make immediate representation to the Federal Government requesting that they do not lower them; that a lowering of them is totally unacceptable at this time in light of the current economic conditions in agriculture? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourab le Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, indeed I should tell the honourable member that we are disappointed that the initial prices are lower, but we can understand the situation given the large supply and the weak world demand for grains, and of course the problems that have recently been created between the United States and the European economic community dealing with the marketing of grains. Mr. Speak er, I would like to, at this time as well, indicate that I would like to congratulate the Canadian Wheat Board for doing a good selling job on behalf of the farmers under these difficult circumstances.

I'm pleased that the announcement was made as early as they did so the farmers can plan their spring seeding program in terms of what they believe should be planted. But, Mr. Speaker, notwithstanding what I have said, we have a great concern about this announcement because we believe that it will cause a decline in net farm incomes somewhere in the neighborhood of $1 0 million to $1 5 million in the Province of Manitoba.

We have ma de representations this morning to the Minister responsible for the Canadia n Wheat Board, the Minister of Agriculture, and the Minister responsible for Transportation that we believe that they should revise the initial prices upward during the course of this new crop year if markets begin to strengthen; to as well do an immediate calculation of cash flow estimates for the Western Grain Stabilization Fund and make cash advances to farmers early in the crop year in order to improve their cash flow situation; and as well request the Minister of Transportation to scrap his plans for introduction of revision to the statutory rate, the Crow rate in the Federal Parliament.

MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the Minister if he would table the representation or copies of the representation that he made to the Federal Government because this Minister has had a track record of saying he's made connection or communicated with them, but yet we have never seen any of the documentation or communications tabled in this Assembly. I would ask that the Minister table that information so that we can puruse it, Mr. Speak er.

I again request the Minister, ask him if he will not again make immediate representation to the Federal Government and lay out the specific details of what he has told this Assembly, the amount of costs that it will incur on the farm community. Interest Rate Relief Program re farmers MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Speak er, a further question to the Minister of Agriculture then. In view of the fact, Mr.

Speaker, that there is an area that he can do something about, and in view of the fact that the Federal Government Farm Credit Corporation have lowered their interest rates to farmers through the Farm Credit Corporation, will he now lower the interest rates to the farmers from some 18 percent, that he is now charging them, to a more reasonable rate of something like the 12 percent that the Federal Government are charging? That is an area of his jurisdiction, and will he reduce those interest rates for Manitoba farmers through his Credit Corporation? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, on loans that are being made now, the interest rates have been at the current borrowing rate of the province. I believe that the long term borrowing rate of the province is somewhere in the neighborhood of 13 percent. The rates at MACC for present borrowing are in that vicinity, Mr. Speaker; that is presently the case. Mr. Speak er, I will pleased to table a copy of the telex that was mailed, or forwarded to the federal official, that I had indicated earlier, later this afternoon. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speak er, to the Minister of Agriculture.

Will he reduce the 18 percent loans, that he's been requested to reduce by the opposition, that he's charging to the farmers under previous loans made by farmers in Manitoba through MACC? Will he lower that rate from 18 percent? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I've dealt with this question before. The fact that - (Interjection) - Mr. Speak er, there is an opportunity available to anyone who has had a loan under the previous rates that they 1401

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 can have those loans paid off at rates which they can borrow from other institutions at a lower rate. New rates in MACC are presently at the current borrowing rate of the province, Mr. Speaker, and that's where the situation is. The old loans are certainly under review. The five-year loans are under review and they are adjusted accordi ngly. Those rates that are in between the review period, Mr. Speaker, the option is open to the farmers to pay those loans off with loans of a lower interest rate. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, is there a penalty charged to those farmers for paying off those 18 percent loans? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe that there is a penalty in MACC for paying off those loans, but I will take the specifics as notice and get that information to him. Removal of Dead Farm Animals - Operators MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My qu estion is to the Mi nister respons ib le for the Environment.

Last year in this House, I raised a question about the problems that operators were running into, operators who were in the busi ness of removing dead farm animals. At that time, the Minister ind icated that he was consulting with these people. My question is can the Mi nister indic ate how many of these operators are still in busi ness at this time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: As I ind icated last year, that is a matter of concern to the government and an interdepartmental committee has been working on that.

I will be pleased to review the question which the member provided to me with the commi ttee and report back to him as soon as possible as to the exact number which he requested. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Why I raised the question with the Minister is because, apparently, I don't believe there are any operators left at all. I know that in the eastern region of the province, there is nobody that is in the business at the present time, and as a result farmers are experiencing difficulty in removal of the dead farm animals.

What is happening at the present time is that certain farmers have been fined for not removing or burying of the dead animals and this creates a major problem at this time. If the Min ister is going to be checking into how many operators are in the business at the time, it is my opinion that there aren't too many. I am wondering, has he got some suggestion how these farmers are going to be getting rid of the dead animals that they have on their property at this time. HON. J.

COWAN: Well, as the member should be aware, there are regulations in place which do allow for the burial of such animals and that those regulations are being enforced by the department, and I stand behind that enforcement. In fact, there are ways by which the individual farmer can dispose of dead animals and when it is done, we ask that it be done in accordance with the regulations which are intended to protect the public health.

So if there are farmers that are being contacted and if there are farmers who are being fined for improper measures, then I would suggest that they are probably being fined because the measures which they have imp lemented are not in keeping with the regulations and if he is asking for a change in the regulations, that would be an entirely di fferent matter. But I would not suggest that we would not be enforcing the regulations as they stand now. MR. A. DRIEDGER: A final supplementary then, Mr. Speaker, to the same Mini ster.

Can the Mini ster indi cate how farmers are su pposed to be burying dead animals at this time of year when there's frost six feet down in the ground? HON. J. COWAN: Well, I would suggest that if there is a problem with dead animals that the farmers contact the public health insp ector in the area or the environmental officer in the area and explain to them exactly what their prob lems are and work out a procedure which is acceptable to the department, acceptable to the farmer and is one which is in con cert with the climatic conditions of the time.

By doing so, they would most likely avoid being fined or avoid any sort of other penaltie s bu t at the same time, in conjunction with the depar tment, will develop a procedure which will keep the public health foremost in mind and would be acceptable to all parties. Flin Flon - Capital Projects MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Min ister of Government Services concerning some remarks by the Mayor of Flin Flon a couple of days ago about the proposed Flin Flon office building.

Is it true, as the Mayor has alleged, that there is monies now being spent on a study rather than government funds being spent on design or construction? MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, in a recent report on television, I believe that the reference made by the honourable member is true, that there was a statement made by the television station - I don't know if it was the Mayor - that there was money being spent on a feasibility study - $100,000 was allotted in the Budget for a feasibility study. That is not correct.

The $10 0,000 that is being budgeted for the Flin Flon office building this year is for planning, specifications and then the tender documents and so on that have to be prepared in advance of the building actually undergoing construction. So it is the design work that has been bud geted for and will be carried out this particular fiscal year, Mr. Speaker, and not a feasibility 1402

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 study . The feasibili ty for tha t building has been determined a long time ago, even by the previous New Democratic Government during the 1970s, that it was necessary to have an central office building in Flin Flon. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd also like to ask the Minister, since there was a sod-turning ceremony in 1977 by the Schreyer admin istration, why that building did not proceed? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Sp eaker, I thank the honourable member for that question. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. J. PLOHMAN: In 1977, Mr.

Speak er, that building was ready to go ahead . As a matter of fact, the tender had not been let as such but had been processed, and the low bidder had been determined. However, the tender had not been awarded; that is all that was waiting to be done at that time. In November of 1977, the previous government froze that project the same as they froze all public construction at that time, Mr. Sp eak er, an indi sc rimina te freeze on public construction.

The Flin Flon office building was one of the victims of that particular freeze and they cancelled the project in March and they're just saying from their seats that it wasn't needed, Mr. Speak er, so that is what the opposition thinks about the necessity of an office building in Flin Flon. This government, the previous New Democratic Government, was committed to providing a central office building in Flin Flon . This government is committed to that and we will be sure that it will be constructed, Mr. Speaker. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. S. LYON: . . . sees your deficit, you may not build it either.

Civil Service Commission - Hirings MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speak er, my question is to the Minister of Economic Development. I wonder if the Minister could inform the House if the agreement with the Manitoba Civil Service Commission stated that there would be no layoffs in the Civil Service at the present time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I think it's appropriate for the Minister of Labour, but guess I can say I think the agreement° covered people who were under the collective bargaining agreement.

Disposal of Right-of-Way Properties MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. My qu estion is for the Min ister of High ways and Transporta tion. Last year we pla ced a number of questions to the Minister regarding the disposal of the property involved in abandoned railroad rights-of-way throughout the province. The Minister was having some review of the disposal methodol ogy. Is the abandoned right-of-way properties that are now vested with the province being disposed of to the adjacent lando wners as was in the works about a year-and-a-half, two years ago? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. S. USKIW: Yes, that is correct, Mr. Speaker. MR. D. ORCHARD: Can I assume from the Minister's answer that there are no basic changes from the disposal to municipalities and to adjacent land owners? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, the policy that was announced about a year ago is still in effec t, Mr. Speaker. I might add to that the Interdepartmental Planning Board has raised a number of questions with respect to the policy, but the policy is as it was a year ago and we are implementing it. Alcan Aluminum Project MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H.

ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Ho nour able Fi rst Min ister. Last week's Ann ual Sh areholde rs' Meeting of the Alca n Aluminum Corporation, and as reported on by Maclean's business writers in last week's copy of the Macleans, indicates how well Alcan has endured the recession. I don't want to get in trouble with the Deputy House Speaker, but analysts talk about the fact that the aluminum industry will be going "gr eat guns" over the next couple of years. It points out that out of a work force of 74,000 people, only 800-some had to be laid off during this recession.

It indicates the President saying that the next few years will be great years for Alcan. My question specifically is - a Miss Ann Beirne, writing for the business column of the Macleans, Mr. Speaker, "The President of Alcan reports to their shareholders that the company will be spending $2 billion in Quebec." MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Does the honourable member have a question? The Honourable Government House Leader on a point of order. HON. R.

PENNER: On the material circulated by you or at your direction to the House with respect to questions, reports and returns issued no doubt as guidelines, one of the things that is suggested with respect to Oral Questions is that a Minister should not, or a member should not be asked an oral question regarding whether or not statements ma de in a newspaper - and that would cover any publication - are correct or not 1403

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 MR. SPEAKER: I haven't yet heard the honourable member's question. I'm not sure whether that was what he intended. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: As usual, the Attorney-General is right and I'm wrong, but I wanted to lay some groundwork for the fact th at, unli ke some of the successful propaganda that has been propagated by members op posite tha t due to the recession nothing was happening in aluminum, Alcan is spending $2 billion in Quebec.

My question to the First Minister is: has he opened up any meaningful negotiations, in view of what's happened in the aluminum industry with Alcan, about inviting them back to look seriously at Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, those negotiations were never closed.

If we go back to the original release, the honourable member will indicate that Alcan continues to have an interest in Manitoba, that it discontinued its efforts during that particular period of time because of the recession that the honourable member has referred to. - (Interjection) - Well, the honourable members maybe don't like the truth, and if they don't like the truth that's their business, Mr. Speaker. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, the shareholders were also told th at th e Alcan Aluminum Company is qu ite prepared to work with govern ments, provincial governments, that are prepared to work with them.

My question to the Honourable First Minister, Mr. Speaker - it's awfully important, it's very important to my constituency - if he is telling me that there are ongoing negotiations now, that perhaps that's one of the reasons why the Minister of Energy is absent, that he is carrying on any kind of negotiation with Alcan officials now, I'll be very happy if the Honourable First Minister can tell me that is the case. I ask the question again because we get these kind of motherhood statements from Ministers and the First Minister all the time. I'm .. . MR. SPEAKER: Order pl ease.

The Honoura ble Government House Leader on a point of order. HON. R. PENNER: The member is rising in his place and protesting that a question he says was asked was not answered. In fact, he simply told us what would make him happy; we know what would make him happy. There are many things that would make him happy . That is scarcely, in question period, the time to hear personal confessions of what would make people happy. I would hate to hear what the Member for Pembina, what would make him hap py, if anything. But that is not what question period is for. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, my question to the First Minister: which Minister of the Crown or which senior civil servant has contacted Alcan Aluminum Company officials during the last month? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would have to take that question as notice. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I accept the First Minister as taking these questions as notice. I want them taken as notice; he will be asked about them.

I would like to then also ask the First Minister to accept as notice the question: when is the next scheduled meeting of officials of Manitoba to meet with Alcan officials with respect to the aluminum smelter in Manitoba? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speak er, the Minister that is responsible, the Minister of Energy and Mines, will be quite pleased to provide a report at the appropriate time. I would take the question as notice. I don't know whether or not there are any meetings that are lined up over the next month or so.

Alcan ind icated very very clearly , if honou rable members would retrace their steps to the date of the issuance the news release by Alcan, that they were deferring negotiations in view of the recession. I have a copy of that Globe and Mail

article of March 25th, that the honourable member is referring to, in which Alcan referred to its very, very substantial loss, but it was considerably less than the $60 million U.S. loss reported for the fourth qua rter of 1982. So Alcan has had a very difficult time, and I'm sure at a time that Alcan considers it appropriate, from their point of view, they will wish to further discuss. I should also remind honourable members it was Mr.

Colver who, at the time of the issuance of the release, indicated that it would be a falsehood on the part of any individuals, any members to suggest that Alcan had deferred negotiations for political reasons, that it deferred negotiations because of the recession. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I will look forward to the First Minister's answers on the ones that he's accepted as notice. Demonstration at U.S. Consulate Another question to the Honourable First Minister. Yesterday in defence of the indefensible, Mr.

Speak er, the First Minister on several occasions referred to some strange silly galloot wearing a mask as being the flag burner. On another occasion, he refers to as a someone wearing a mask. Well, Mr. Speaker, my question to the Honourable First Minister. I think there's something we can all agree on, that side of the House and this side of the House, that surely we know that it wasn't the Lone Rang er, Mr. Speak er. If it wasn't the Lone Ranger, is it per chance a third Cabinet Minister that didn't want to reveal himself at that ceremony. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speak er, I had the opportunity to observe the film on T.V. and the stature and size of the individual in question would be more appropriate to the size and stature of the Member for Lakeside. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The . Honou rable Leader of the Opposition. 1404

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 Alcan Aluminum Project HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speak er, a further question to the First Minister. Can the First Minister advise, if he's so confident that ongoing negotiat ions on Alcan are proceeding so swimmingly, can he advise why it is that Alcan is committing $2 billion, as my colleague has mentioned, to construction in Quebec and zero dollars to construction in Manitoba? That's the first branch of it. No. 2: Can he advise the House if Alcan has acquired any options on land in Manitoba, which they gave up after the NOP Government came into office? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister.

HON. H. PAWLE Y: Mr. Speaker, I don't know why the Leader of the Oppostion would attempt to mislead the House as to the comments that I'd made a few moments ago. I said that negotiations weren't going swimmingly, I said that indeed they had been deferred because of the recession; those were my precise words. I did not at any point, Mr. Speaker, indicate that the negotiations were proceeding swimmingly. At this point. Mr. Speaker, I would ask that the Leader of the Opposition withdraw any suggestion that I made any such comment in this House. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, has Alcan taken up any options on the purchase of land in Manitoba, which options were aband oned by Alcan after this incompetent bunch came into office? HON. H. PAWL EY : Mr. Speaker. I don't know, I would have to ascertain whether or not that be the case. I would be surprised if it was, because of the statement that was issued by Mr. Colver some 10 or 11 months ago, Mr. Sp eak er. I think tha t the Leader of the Opposition himself knows that it's unlikely. I'm not going to be able to give him a guarantee or assurance in this House they haven't picked up some of the option, no.

Payment of Wages Fund - Terry Balkan employees MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour. While we were in government, Mr. Speak er, we established a Payment of Wages Fund to assist employees who had not been paid their wages as a result of a shutdown or closing. Could the Minister of Labour take some action on behalf of the employees of Terry Balkan Chevrolet Oldsmobile Ltd. of apparently being without wages since at least last October?

Now could she take some act ion to pro vide some compensation to them from the Payment of Wages Funds while the proceedings are ongoing to attempt to recover the funds from Mr. Balkan? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to inform the House, and the member who asked the question, that we are pursuing assistance to these workers. We are at this point investigating the best way to handle that, but we feel very strongly that these workers deserved to be assisted in every way possible and we will do that. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Mr .

Speaker, I'm glad to hear that expression of opinion from the Minister, but the employees have been without these wages since at least last October. ask her, can she take some action today to provide some compensation to them, particularly in view of the reports that they have debts, they're out of money; the money is sitting there earning interest, as one indicated, and they're paying interest on their debts.

In view of the fact there has been at least a six­ month delay, can she not take some immediate action to compensate these employees whilst the department takes its own proceedings to attempt to enforce a judgment against Mr. Balkan? HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, we are pursuing this particular situation as quickly as it can possibly be pursued and we are assisting the employees in every possible way to attain the wages that are rightfully theirs. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the Payment of Wages Fund was set up to compensate employees for wages which they had lost.

It was not set up to wait over six months to provide some compensation to th e employees. I'm asking her, not just for assistance, I'm asking her if she would take some steps today to provide some payment of wages to these employees under this fund which we established and not just sympathy. They need money, Mr. Speak er. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, I will be delighted to hear that kind of support when we bring in the changes to the Payment of Wages Act, which will make wages a priority. That is what's going to happen. Wages are at this point not a priority. That's one of the situations we intend to rectify. MR.

G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the employees don't need changes in legislation, they need some money. Unified Family Court Project MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question for the Attorney-General. In the Throne Speech, there was an indication that government is considering the introduction of a unified family court, Mr. Speaker. Could the Attorney-General indicate what, if any, action he proposes to take on that statement? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, indeed I and senior officials in my department have been working intensively on that project.

I've had discussions with the Federal Minis ter of Jus tice; I've had discussions with the Administrator of Court Services; I've had discussions with practitioners in the field. I have been working with my senior off icials in bringing forth or designing a program to be brought forth. I expect that I will be able to bring a proposal forward to caucus and Cabinet 1405

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 before the end of this month, and it is my hope to bring in enabling legislation sometime during the month of May. Family Court Delays MR. G. MERCIER: Just a further supplementary, Mr. Speaker , would the Attorney-General, in bringing forward those proposals, consider what I am informed is now a six-month delay in contested domestic cases in the Court of Queen's Bench. HON. R. PENNER: That indeed is one of the factors which leads me to give this particular project high priority.

Because of a decision of the Supreme Court of Canada with respect to the jurisdiction of provincially appointed judges in family- related matters, many more matters than would normally be the case had to be filed in the Court of Queen's Bench. Indeed, there is a six-month delay in contested matters and that is a source of great concern to myself and, of course, to the individuals involved and to the practicing bar. That is why, as I say, high priority is being given to the project. It had been my hope, in fact, that we could have persuaded the Federal Government to agree to constitutional amendments under

Section 96 of The Constitution Act of 18 67 to enla rge the jurisdiction of provincially appointed judges in family -related matters, but the Minister of Justice federally is not now inclined to agree to that proposal even though all 10 provinces supported that proposal. Tabling of telex to Hon. A. J. MacEachen MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, yesterday, I promised to table a copy of the telex forwarded by myself to the Honourable Alan J. Ma cEachen, Minister of External Affairs, which telex was dated March 31, 19 83. Manitoba Horse Racing Commission MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism if she will be tabling the report of the Manitoba Racing Commission in the near future. It is now three months after the close of the fiscal year of the Manitoba Racing Commission. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMI TH: Mr. Sp eak er, I understand it's customary for �hat report to be tabled in the committee hearings, and that's when I intend to table it. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary if I may, under the report submitted to the Legislature under Economic Development and Tourism, it has Horse Racing Commission. It says, "The Commission to report annually to the Minister within th ree months after close of fiscal year. On receipt, Minister to table report in the Legislature forthwith, if in Session; if not in Session, 15 days of commencement of the next Session." I ask the Minister when she will be tabling the report of the Manitoba Racing Commission? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I will table it as soon as I possibly can. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Before Orders of the Day, may I direct the attention of honourable member to the gallery where we have 60 students of the Adult Education from the Red River Community College. The students are under the direction of Mrs. Braid and the school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for lnkster. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HANSARD CLARIFICATION HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a correction in the Hans ard of yesterday.

On Page 1384, the first column, about hal f-way down, there is a sentence that says, "There is a mechanism for that." It should read, "There is no mechanism for that." Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Spea ker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Su pply to be granted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture; and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Labour. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - LABOUR MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee please come to order. We are still considering Item 1. (b)(1) - the Honourable Minister. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr.

Chairman, I have several items that were asked for last evening and I would like to share that information with my colleagues. The first is the Report of the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women. It's a report on their activities between December 19 82 and March 19 83, 1406

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 obviously an interim report, as their initial manda te was to report to me at the end of six months. The second item is the senior staff changes requested by the member between December 1, 1981 and April 5, 1983, and I will pass th ose along to the Member for St. Norbert. A copy of the report of the Department of Labour and Manpo wer - it was called then - for the year 19 82 is also ava ilable for the member. It is still in the printing stages, however, so this is the draft copy.

Another question that was raised had to do with the CN-CP decision to seize the rebate of the Medicare allo wance. I have information on that as follo ws: The railways were deducting the 1. 5 percent health and education iax from the Medicare allowance, resulting from the fact that employees in Manitoba do not pay premiums for Medicare. The Medicare allo wance is contained in the 1981 collective agreement. On September 30, 19 82, Vic Schroeder, the Minister of Finance, wrote to both railways outlining thei r responsibility in paying the levy. The unions took the matter through the grievance procedure.

It has now gone to arbitration and the case is expected to be heard within the next two weeks. So that's the status of that situation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for the information that she's provided. I would be very interested in hearing the results of this last matter that's goi ng to arbitr at ion, with respect to the railway employees. I wonder if the Minister, when she receives that information, could simply send me a note and let me know what the result is of that. HON. M. DOLIN: Of the arbitration? Certainly.

I'm sure the member is aware that it's not under our arbitration - it's Federal, yes - but when we do hear of the result, we will be glad to share it. There is one other item that came up that I would like to pass along some information on, and that was whether or not Darlene Meakin has been hired or is working, and my inf ormation is that she is working as the Media Specialist with the Information Services Branch. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I again thank the Minister for that informat ion.

I note in the report and activities of the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women, which the Minister appointed, that the council met with a number of organizati ons in Item No. 3, one of which includes the Morgentaler Defence Committee. Has the Advisory Council taken a position or made a recommendation to the Minister with respect to that matter? HON. M. DOLIN: No, they have not.

The practice that has been adopted by the Advisory Council in the structure of their meetings is that they have a business meeting in the morning, and in the afte rnoon part of their meetings they hear representations from various groups who have some piece of information that they wish to share with the Advisory Council. They receive these for information and whether or not anything 1407 comes out of that as a recommendation to the Minister is something that we will have to see at the end of the six months as they define their mandate and so on. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I have one other item I'd like to deal with relating to a question I asked the Minister yesterday on the committee appointed to seek out employment opportunities for those 132 workers laid off by Kimberly-Clark. I'd asked her how many jobs had been obtained for workers through that committee. I wonder if she has a response to that question now. HON. M. DOLIN: That information is being prepared. We are doing a follow-up on all of the employees to see exactly what their employment status is right now, and I will be glad to share that with you as soon as the informa tion is fully prepared. MR. G.

MERCIER: Mr. Chai rman, has the Minister and her department been a part of similar committees with respect to other layoffs which have occurred over the past year? I went through a list of significant layoffs the other day: Versatile, Schneiders, Shell, and the list went on and on. Ha ve simila r com mittees been appointed in each one of those instances? HON. M. DOLIN: I would say that there has been an attempt to seek alterna tives to attempt to deal with the problem of layoff and redeployment and so on, but the committees, of course, are not the same in each case ..

In fact, in some cases there may not be a committee per se, we may deal with it in a diff erent way. But in each situation where there is a termination, ther e certai nly is an atte mpt, and it's an interdepartmental attempt, to deal with alterna tives. Now, when you have a layoff, where there is a recall date given, then you have a slightly diff erent situation and could relay to you the situation in Thompson where we had an extended layoff and simply nothing else to do in a one-industry town, and where we did move in and I actually worked out with all of the parties involved a very successful work program. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) - the Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: I don't know if this is the appropriate place to ask for the explanation, but - the Member for Radisson says probably not, so we'll take a chance. In the Minister's opening remarks she included a reference to the fact tha t Manitoba, during the past year, had the lowest CPI increase of any province in the country, I think she said, or one of the lowest CPI increases. I'm just wondering whether or not, somehow by implication, she or her department are taking credit for their acti ons having resulted in that conclusion. HON. M.

DOLIN: Well, if I could correct the member's recollection here, I believe that what was said was that Winnipeg had the lowest CPI of any of the cities surveyed, and I believe that is 15 major cities or so across Canada. I didn't say "M anito ba" of the provinces; I said "W innipeg" of the cities. MR. G. FILMON: I am just wondering, Mr. Chairman, how she sees that as relating to the efforts of her department in resulting in that low increase.

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 HON. M. DOLIN: I'm really not sure that this is the place where we discuss this, but I will say that the purpose in explaining the low CPI and so on is to put everything into perspective. We don't operate in isolation. We don't exist in isolation, and everything that we do is of course relative to what is happening around us. That was the point that I was making. MR. G. FILMON: What then is the relevance of the low CPI in crease to the efforts of the Minis ter's department? MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the Minister wish to make a reply? HON. M.

DOLIN: I am not sure of the point that the member is trying to make or what he's trying to question. It is incredibly relevant to all Manitobans and particularly to people in Winnipeg that their cost of living has not skyrocketed as it has in some other parts of Canada.

When one is looking at the situation in Ma nitoba, or specifically in Winnipeg where half our population does live of course, one has to do it in light of the relationship to expenses, to costs, to what is happening because of a whole lot of other reasons, which of course are not particularly the result of anything that my department does, but is the result of what happens in a whole lot of other areas, many of them outside of the province, you know, impact from outside of the province that I don't think we should be discussing here and at this point in the Estimates.

But there is a relevance between empl oyment, peop le's liv ing conditions, what their needs are and so on, and what is happening around them. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I think that the Minister is making my point for me. That type of information seems rather superfluous to the Estimates of the Department of Labour and to the activities of the Department of Labour. I don't see that it has any relevance whatsoever.

If it does have any relevance, the Minister might just as well refer to the fact that we've had the mildest winter in the last 10 years, or the fact that we had fewer forest fires last year than we had in the past five years, or the fact that we didn't have any flooding last year to speak of. It seems to me that it doesn't have any pla ce whatsoever in her opening remarks. I would just make the point that I think her remarks in relation to her responsibilities should have some relevance to this department. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) - the Honourable Minister. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr.

Cha irman, I believe that when we properly discuss statistics under the Research and Planning Branch of my department, I can share with the member some important facts about why we gather research and why it is relevant to the entire situation. I don't think comments on my opening remarks, continued comments on them are app ropriate now. That should have been done last night. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Cha irman, just following on the normal practice that used to be carried out by the Minister's party in opposition, the reasoning was that anything that came under General Administration was relevant to this department and anything that your opening statement contained was relevant to General Administration of the department. We're just carrying on a practice that was established by the Minister's party in opposition. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) - pass; 1. (b)(2)- pass; 1. (c)(1) - the Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I don't know whether the Minister has some opening remarks she wishes to make about this section. HON. M. DOLIN: I'd like to just briefly explain what the section's about, if you wish. Basically, I would just like to inform the members present that the goal of the Women's Bureau is to provide a variety of services to and for working women or for tho se wishing to enter or re-enter the work force, and through such services to promote equality of men and women in the labour force.

They are involved in a number of activities including career counselling, acting as consultants and resource personnel at seminars, workshops, conferences and so on. They work to create public awareness of women's contributions in the labour force, as well as certain conditions that exist in the workplace, and they act as resource persons to special committees, particularly in the other areas of involvement of our department.

They participate in the planning and delivery of government programs and particular initiatives, and they maintain and provide an up-to-date resource centre of print and audio-visual materials for use by the public at large. MR. G. ME RCIER: Mr. Chairman, we have no disagreement at all with the work done by the Women's Bureau. I just wonder if there is anything extraordinary, or significant new activity that will be carried on this year. HON. M.

DOLIN: One area that I think that the staff members from the Women's Bureau have been particularly helpful to us in is sitting on the committees that deal with such situations as plant closures and working with us to try to resolve some of tho se situations. MR. G. MERCIER: Are there any new seminars or booklets on any new subjects that will be printed and circulated during the coming year? HON. M. DO LIN: The career selector has been completely revised and is being distributed at this point, I believe. You may be familiar with the brochure itself.

It's a series of brochures and that has, as I say, been updated, revised and is ready for distribution. MR. G. MERCIER: I believe I asked last year to be put on the mailing list. HON. M. DOLIN: If you 're not receiving it, we'd like to know that. We assumed you were on the mailing list. The caucus office - most MLAs do receive this material as it comes out, or a copy thereof. If you wish, we will be happy to check on that. 1408

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister can indicate if there are positive indications of a conti nuing move towards equal ity in terms of opportunities and lessening of discrimination. I'm aware of many committees that are operating both within the provincial Civil Service, the city Civic Service and other areas of the workpla ce who would probably be monitoring this.

Do we have any statistical information as to how successful we're being in terms of this elimination of discrimination and equal work for equal pay and so on? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. M. DOLIN: I think there are several questions involved in what the member has just asked or stated, really, and I'd like to touch on a couple of them.

The Women's Bureau and I, myself, and in fact many people within the department have been involved in not only monitoring the entry of women into, let's say, non-traditional jobs or more women in workpla ces where they have not been before, this is improving - the entry of women into these areas. The wage gap though, the basic wages earned by men and by women, there still is a large gap between them.

It is our intent this summer to proceed with an intensive study of the equal pay for work of equal value­ situation and, as I say, we intend to get at that this summer and recommend to the government some movement in that area. All of these are rather ongoing problems and not problems for which we are going to find solutions overnight. In some areas, we feel good about the progress being made; in others, we think that our investigation simply shows us that there is more to do than we thought in the fi rst place.

The Women's Bureau itself has, over various summers and particularly this last summer, done several studies of women in the workplace, one related to part-time work, another related to the impact of the use of VDT terminals and so on. So these studies are ongoing. The problem is becoming a bit more clearly defined and we intend to spend time this summer looking for solutions to it. MR. G.

FILMON: I'm wondering if there are any ways statistically that the department or the branch has of establishing whether or not we're headed in the right direction with the increased empha sis and increased awareness, or whether we just have a good feeling about it. HON. M. DOLIN: There are perhaps three areas that I could touch on to share with the member. Indicators tha t we have are that women are en tering the untraditional jobs more freely.

One of these is the counselling that is done by the Women's Bureau and the evaluation of their counselling clearly indicates that women are more consistently and more fr equ ently th in king of jobs, and preparing themselves to ·enter workplaces where they have not, you know, had a high degree of visibility before. Also the statistics from the community colleges and from the universities indicate that women are entering education patterns that they didn't before. As an exam ple, at the university the number of women entering Engineering doubled this year from previous years. MR. G.

FILMON: Wh at are the actual figures? HON. M. DOLIN: Well, that's just like saying how many, what was the . . MR. G. FILMON: They're from one to two. HON. M. DOLIN: I think in the Engineering Program that it's probably greater than that. Certainly with some of our high tech programs, we have indicated right from the beginning that if we are going to put high tech programs in place we want to be very sure that the people who are guiding the entrance into this are very aware that we feel that women have an equal place in those programs. The statistics from the commun ity colleges are encouraging.

That's not to say that they were ever good before, in some of these areas they were dismal, and in fact in some places there were no women at all in the courses, but that is improving. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for providing me with a copy of this information on Career Selector, which appears to, and I hope it does this. opens up or describes virtually every occupation as being ava ilable to women. I note, Mr.

Chairman, in the department's report of last year, which the Minister has supplied me with a copy until it's printed, but last year the bureau staff were invited to Bruce Junior High School to counsel female students on occupational sex role stereotyping. I would think, Mr. Chairman, that is a very valuable function for the Women's Bureau to perform, particularly in junior high, so that young women do not grow up with the attitude that certain occupations or professions are closed to them and that they are all open to women.

I'm wondering whether the bureau attends at a junior high school only upon invitation, or are any steps taken by the Women's Bureau to make known to, say, junior high schools or high schools that these types of seminars are ava ilable from the Women's Bureau. If they hav en't, if that type of correspondenc e or communication to schools has not taken place, I would hope that it could be, keeping in mind no doubt the financial constraints upon the operation. HON. M. DOLIN: There are several ways that this is happening.

I attended this year a symposium of this sort in Brandon which brought into Brandon high school students - I think about Grades 9 and 10, if I'm not mistaken - from all around the southwestern part of the province. This was a lesson, if you will, and a series of workshops in career opportunities ava ilable to them, the problems that they might run in to in sexual stereotyping within various professions, how to combat 1409

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 these. The workshops were led by women who had been successful and were currently successful in these various fields. Another way that we have been spreading the word on this particular subject is through a symposium that was held last fall, was it? I think it was last June, a non-traditional career symposium. This was tor women of any age. I believe that probably most of the women attracted to it were young adults who had perhaps had a start in some career which was probably more traditional and were wishing to branch out into other areas.

Also the Women's Bureau, as a group, is a member of SCAM which is a guidance counsellors' association and through that group is able to reach young people in schools and does this through invitation or through their activities in SCAM, through displays, and as a resource for the guidance counsellors themselves. So the information is getting out that way. We don't have to hold all the symposiums ourselves. We are able to use these other mechanisms tor getting the word out.

We also have recently been invited to Norway House to give th e same kind of sex role stereotypi ng elimination and opportunities for young people to go into any career that they choose to go into, not ones in which they have traditionally been cast. This is coming up I think in Ma y, so the word is certainly getting out there. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: My question to the Minister, and actually I would like to make a comment because she didn't answer me in the House when I asked if she agreed with her colleague on the practice of sending the single mothers out to work for $1 an hour, especially when she's expecting or telling us that she is looking for equal work of equal value. I would like an answer to that question probably at this stage. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. M.

DOLIN: The program that the Member for Kirkfield Park is referring to is a work activity project for persons who are recipients of social assistance, and the $1 an hour that she's referring to is not their pay, but is a grant made to them in recognition of the additional expenses that they might have, such as transportation, lunches and so on, while they are in training for the workplace. What is being offered to these people, who may in fact be single mothers - may not be single mothers, I don't know, I don't believe that having children is a criteria for the program - is basic training to enter the work force.

The hope is and that intent of the program is to match them up with employers so that at the end of the program they will have a job to go to. The $1 an hour is not their salary at all. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, I certainly have a problem listening to the Minister try and justify sending anyone out to work for $1 an hour, because no matter how you put it, it's work. I don't see how anyone is going to want to work tor $1 hour, and I don't see how anyone can justify it, especially a woman Minister of Labour who is spouting the cause of women and telling us how much is going to be done tor women.

Actually , the program, it started out as a work experience program, that's what the money was put in for and it was single mothers. These women didn't need training. They had been out of the job market tor years and maybe sometimes not years, so it was just a matter of getting them into jobs at which they had experience or, if they hadn't had experience, at least they had experience in the workplace at one time. It wasn't a great wage, but at least it was a living wage. They did not have to depend on the government for a handout first and then $1 an hour to go onto the job.

This new modified program that they're talking about is something altogether different.

Whereas the first program was very successful, I question the success and I question that anyone would try and send people out for $1 an hour, at the same time giving them handouts. I really find that I must say how greatly disappointed I am that you would even try to justify this program. I would think you'd be in there fighting to get the program back to where it was. Let's give these people some sense of value, because I don't care how you slice it, these people are being paid $1 an hour to work. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr.

Chairman, I gave the member the courtesy of an answer, even though the question she is asking is not related to my department. It is another department's program that she is talking about. I believe that the question she is asking is more appropriately raised under the Estimate discussion for that other department. The fact though that it is in another department is simply an underlining of the answer that I gave her before. It is not an employment, a job creation program; it is a training program and it is set up to be a training program.

The program that she is talking about is a work activity project and is under the Department of Commun ity Services. It is not in Labour and Emplo yment Services. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate what the Minister is saying, and I also understand that it doesn't matter to me too much about whether it's the courtesy of replying to me. I am the member asking and I really don't need that cou rtesy, I expect it. I will be bringing it up certainly under Community Services.

What I am trying to relate to you is that here we have a Minister of Labour who is espousing the cause of women, equal pay of equal value. Not only that, the program that you're referring to, whether it's in your department or in someone else's department, didn't start out as a work activity project for this parti cular prog ram . The success of it was work experience and it was placing women in jobs at a salary where they didn't have a handout.

I would think that the Minister of Labour would especially be supportive of women in this field and trying to get them out to work, whether it's in her department or someone else's department. HON. M. DOLIN: Perhaps I could refer the member to a booklet called "Empl oyment Programs and 1410

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 Services for Women" in which pre-employment courses are outlined. Now within that, the describer of those pre-employment courses, clearly a training program, there is a description of the program that she is referring to. It says at the bottom, "Arrangements are made with emplo yment services . . ," and that is not our department. That is a branch within the Community Services and Corrections ministry.

"Arrangements are made to cove r the costs of chil d care and transportati on." That's the money that she is referring to, over and abov e social assistance or welfare payments, that are made to the people involved in these courses. It is not an employment situation, it is a training situation in which an additional grant is given to people who are taking the training in recognition of their special needs. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I only have one more thing to say on this, Mr.

Chairman, and that is that I suggest that they go back and look at where the original $12 5,000 was put and that was not a training program. It was to put women into jobs. It was not started out as a training program. The modified program certainly is working this way and I think it's working against what turned out to be a very successful program and I don't think it's worth the cost of having women have to take a handout from the government.

As I say, I won't say anything further in this area, but I suggest you look at the beginning of that program, because it was called a work experience and they were very successful in placing women. Every person that the Minister talked about in the House, Mr. Chairman, was placed under the old program. HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Chairman, point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: What is the point of order? HON. M. DOLIN: The point of order is that this is not in my Estimates and it is nol an appropria te subject to pursue. I have been courteous enough to allow the member to question this and I have given her answers that I have .

This is not within this department, and it is certainly not within the venue of the Women's Bureau, and I think that her remarks are more appropriately made within the Estima tes to which she is referring. She was referring to dollar amounts, and so on, for which we have no point of reference. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I accept that it is in another department, but at the same time, if the Minister is going to tell me what this program is about, and I don't agree, then I'm going to tell her that I don't agree, but I'm going to let it lie there. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll take your promise.

Item 1. (c)(1) ­ pass; 1. (c)(2)-pass; 1. (d)(1) - the Honourable Minister. HON. M.

DOLIN: The Research and Planning Branch is responsible for providing information and analyses in the labour relations and labour market areas in support of effective planning, management and policy development in the department. 1411 The main objectives of the branch inclu de the identification of current and future labour market needs in Manito ba; the analyzed labour-relation trends and conditi ons; they assess the performanc e and effectiveness of labour market programs; they provide the department with research and technical assistance; and they conduct studies and analyze information on policy-related issues.

In August of 19 82, the Research Branch of the department was reorganized, resulting in a change of name, responsibilities and reporting relationship within the department. The role of the branch was expanded at that time to include a planning, as well as a research capaci ty, to become a centrally located information source reporting directly to the Deputy Minister. During the past year, the branch focused with special emphasis in a number of priority areas. Labour market trends were monitored and analyz ed, reports and briefing notes were prepared on a range of topics of special interest and concern.

They worked to identify skill requirements and training needs - that was continu ed and support was provided for the development of the Canadian Occupational Projection System, which is known as COPS. The information on labour market trends and outlook was util ized in identifying training prio rities and in preparing information for career counselling purposes.

Work was initiated and expanded in data collection, analysis and reporting on labour relations clima te in Manitoba, including preparation of a 19 82 addition of the Collective Agreement Analysis Report, a calendar of collective agreement expirations, reports on work stoppages, and wage settlement informa tion. A number of outcome survey studies were conducted, investigating the linkage between occupational training and the labour market. Federal and Provincial Labour Ma rket Programs continue to be mon itored and analyz ed.

Activities included the preparation of a program inventory, analysis of the Unemplo yment Insurance Program and operational assessments of some departmental programs. The branch assisted the depa rtment with the preparation of information for a number of interprovincial and Federal Provincial meetings on labour market matte rs. Special analyses were undertaken to support negotiations on the new Canada Man power Training Agreement. Background papers were developed and a number of issues of concern to the department, for example, on technological change, job creation, worker participation, pensions, and so on.

In support of the longer term planning initiative the department wishes to pursue, the branch has developed information procedures and schedules for a planning process. I have given you a rather lengthy introduction to this, because with the expanded direction and mandate of this department, I think it's important to outline their entire structure. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, with respect to labour market trends, could the Minister advise us what predictions the Research and Planning Department are making for the next year or so with respect to unemployment?

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 HON. M. DOLIN: The department's predictions for the unemployment rate, which I believe is what you want as translating from the employment rate, are pretty much in line with what the Conference Board of Canada has predicted for Manitoba. That would be in the range of 10. 4, which is not too different from the current unemployment rate. MR. G. MERCIER: Over what period of time? HON. M. DOLIN: That's 19 83. MR. G. MERCIER: During all of 19 83.

In view of the fact that I would expect that the number of people in the job market would expand, and given that there are currently 54,000 unemplo yed people in Ma nitoba according to the offi cial statistics, how many people are predicted then to be unemployed in Manitoba by the end of the year? HON. M. DOLIN: I think the best guesstimate is 53,000. Obviously, we're not trying to target an exact figure here but given that unemployment rate, given the labour force participation rate and so on, and given the nature of predictions at best, we will say approximately 53,000. MR. G. MERCIER: I take it, Mr.

Chairman, that's given the announced policies of the government, is that correct? HON. M. DOLIN: Pardon? MR. G. MERCIER: That's given the announced policies and programs of the government. HON. M. DOLIN: Much of the information, of course, that we have been talking about is based on Conference Board figures, which is where we get our basic figures of what is happening in Manitoba. The Conference Board obviously does not have information on the Jobs Fund or indications of potential impact. That's not a part of their base variables.

So the implication and the impact of that particular job creation initiative is not a part of the projections that we're talking about here. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, then how much does the Minister predict that the number of unemployed will be reduced by the Jobs Fund? HON. M. DOLIN: I believe that should be discussed under the Jobs Fund Esti mates, Appropriation 29. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, we're talking to the Minister of Labour, we're talking about unemployment. We're talking about a problem that the Minister and the Premier and I agree is the No. 1 problem.

They've announced a Jobs Fund; the Minister of Labour is supposed to play a co-ordinating role in th at whole operation. She has indicated that according to the Research and Planning Department that it is estimated unemployment will continue at the rate of 10.3 percent in Ma nitoba this year resulti ng in some 53,0 00 unemployed people, supposedly down 1, 000 from the current 54,000. I'm asking her what the effect of the Jobs Fund will be on that number of unemployed people? How much does she anticipate the number of unemployed will be reduced? How many people are going to get jobs in 1983? HON. M.

DOLIN: I believe the member is asking a question to which the answer has so many variables that even if I did attempt to answer it here, as opposed to under the Jobs Fund itself where we have a whole special

section of the Estimates where these questions can be asked, I think that it has to be understood that any answer to that question is going to depend on things such as how much involvement we have from the Federal Government in this initiative; how quickly the private sector picks up on the opportunities; how long the jobs are, of what duration the jobs are that are created; what the spin-off effects are of the jobs that are created, all of these things will have an impa ct on the unemployment figures. We hope to create many many jobs.

We hope to have long-term benefits and lasting assets for the province and we hope that we will, while we are doing this, create opportunities for people to even enter new careers when those that they have had before are no longer viable. So there are all kinds of things happeni ng, all kinds of variables that will impact on the unemployment figures. To be able to predict with any accuracy the exact impact on a figure that we are seeing is only a prediction in the first place, I think, would be just a speculation in which I would not care to get involved. MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister strengthens my conviction that the Jobs Fund is nothing but a jobs fraud fund, and that there really is little hope that the charade of this Jobs Fund is going to contribute in any significant way in terms of jobs for unemployed people in Manitoba. We've seen the announcement of one program, the Careerstart Program, which is identified as a new initiative, is nothing but a continuation of a previous program.

Our Finance critic has identified the fact that monies have simply been taken from other areas of spending and accumula ted in a so-called Jobs Fund to provide some image-making for a government that has performed disastrously for the economy and for workers in Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, in describing the functions that this department provides to the Minister, she referred to labour market needs. Does this Research and Planning Department investigate and anal yze the effects of government taxation pol icies and their effects on employment opportunities in Manitoba? HON. M.

DOLIN: The department has not done any specific studies on what I believe the member may be referring to. I would ask that if he has any questions perhaps he could be more specific about them. MR. G. MERCIER: Has the department done any study on the effects of the payroll tax in Manitoba and whether or not it has, in fact, contributed to layoffs, or to conversion of full-time to part-time workers, or to reduction in rates of remuneration for workers? HON. M. DOLIN: A specific study of that nature has not been undertaken by the department, but I think 1412

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 it's important to note that the health and education levy came into effect July 1, 1982. The figures that we have between June, 1982 and February, 19 83, which is the most recent labour force survey estimates that we have, seasonally adjusted employment in Manitoba declined by 0.9 percent compared with a national decline in seaso nally adjusted emplo yment of 1. 5 percent during that same period. So certainly ours was a better record. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, if the Minister wants to compare, we had a much better record in Manitoba for unemployment during the previous four years of Progressive Conservative Government. We had no payroll tax. I suggest to the Minister that the payroll tax has adversely affected employment in Manitoba. Does the Minister intend to have the department do a survey of businesses in Manitoba and carry out some research and analysis of the effects of the payroll tax upon workers in Manitoba? HON. M. DOLIN: Mr.

Cha irman, it's my understanding that during the years referred to by the member, the previous government years, that the unemployment record was poorer than it has been during our couple of years in government, not quite two years. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, during those four years over 30,000 jobs were created in Manitoba. In less than 18 months, we've lost almost 30,000 jobs. If she considers that to be a favourable comparison to the New Democratic Party's performance, I would welcome a challenge amongst the electorate at any time if she can persuade the First Minister to do that. Mr.

Chairman, I asked the Minister whether she, through the Research and Planning Department, would carry out an analysis and study of the effects of the payroll tax upon workers in Manitoba. Is her department going to do that in the next year? HON. M. DOLIN: Mr. Chairman, we can monitor that. There is no need for a study. The 30,000 jobs that the member referred to were created during the years that he referred to were in fact far below the national average. Our performance in the unemployment area is better at this point in time.

Everything, of course, is relative and I would never say that we are at all satisfied with the situation as it is. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, how does the Minister propose to monitor the effects of the payroll tax? HON. M. DOLIN: We will follow employment changes very closely if they occur. MR. G. MERCIER: How? HON. M. DOLIN: We will use the official data from Statistics Canada. MR. G. MERCIER: Will there be any communication with employers for information as to the changes? HON. M. DOLIN: I believe the member is asking for a survey of attitude and that isn't something that we do. We deal with data. MR. G.

MERCIER: That's exactly what I am trying to do get the Minister to do, Mr. Cha irman, is deal with data and deal with the employers and the businesses who are involved in either reductions of staff, or conversion of employees from full-time to part-time, or reduction in rates of remuneration as a result of the payroll tax. Now I would have hoped, Mr. Cha irman, that the Minister would have been independent enough and strong enough in her position to act on behalf of the workers in Manitoba. I think she has a mandate to do that and I wish she would take some acti on.

It would appear that she's not going to take any action because other members of the government have made a decision to impose this tax on empl oyment in Ma nitoba and I take it she's reluctant to act on behalf of the workers in Manitoba and tell them about the detrimental and adverse effects this tax is hav ing on workers in Manitoba. So I'll go on, Mr. Chairman, to another matter.

Does the Minister, through the Research and Planning Department, undertake any studies or analysis of plant closings, of plant shutdowns in Manitoba, of layoffs in Manitoba, in order to determine whether the economic policies of this government and rates of increase in taxations, comparatively with other jurisdictions, are causing much of the unemployment in Manitoba, or reducing, or acting as a disincentive to investment in Manitoba? HON. M. DOLIN: That has never been reported to us as a reason for a closing in those plant closings in which we have been involved.

The major reason for plant closings at this point in time is technological change. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Cha ir man , before th e opposition critic moves away from his concerns about the health and post-secondary education tax effect on employment in Manitoba, I wanted to make a couple of observations. I believe that what he was seeking, Mr. Chairman, is an undertaking by the Minister that the Minister would study the effect of this tax on employment in Manitoba.

If the Minister had in any way indicated that it was what she would be prepared to do, I would also like her to study the effect of the doubl ing of the unemployment insurance premiums on employment patterns in Manitoba, because we are knowledgeable enough about the effect of that; that the levy equals or surpasses the health and post-secondary education tax levy.

I would also be concerned, if the Minister is going to look at the effect of taxation policies on employment to broaden the scope, to look at all of the taxat ion, including hospital premium taxes and health taxes that are levied on employ ees in various jurisdi ctions throughout the count ry, and speculate on the effect that those taxes, those poll taxes, have on employment levels in various parts of the country, and reflect on decisions by companies like Kimberly-Clark to locate elsewhere, despite the fact that the taxation levels are higher in some of those areas.

My concern also would be that the Minister indicate to me where the opposition has this 30,000 jobs. I don't 1413

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 think the Minister is conf irming that there were 30,000 jobs created in Manitoba. If so, where? Where is the catalogue of 30,000 jobs? This is rhetoric on the part of the opposition that has never been established, Mr. Cha irman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Cha irman, having heard from the apologist for the government now, there is no question, and I can provide the Minister of Natural Resources with the written confirmation of the fact that those jobs were produced during th ose four years.

The Minister's Department knows it as well and they can provide it to them if they wish. Mr. Chairman, if the Minister does wish to embark on the study of the effects of the payroll tax, no doubt she will keep in mind that the Unemployment Insurance Commission increase was applied national ly. I'm not defending it, but it was applied nationally . The payroll tax was a new tax applied to the Province of Manitoba. I had asked the Minister a question, Mr. Chairman, and perhaps she has an answer. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Minister. HON. M. DOLIN: I'm sorry, what was his question? MR.

CHAIRMAN: Will the Member for St. Norbert repeat the question, please? MR. G. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Cha irman, I had asked the Minister if she was keeping in mind the fact that the economic regime in the province may very well contribute to a lack of investment in employment opportunities. Does she do any studies through this department of those factors that may contribute to unemployment in Ma nitoba? HON. M. DOLIN: My unders tanding is th at the Department of Economic Development does studies on the cost of doing business in Manitoba and that information would be availab le through that department.

That seems to be the specific information that the member is looking for. - (Interjection) - Well, our performance in unemployment would show that it is not a bad place to be. MR. G. MERCIER: Are you talking about transportation costs in Manitoba? A MEMBER: The whole survey. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (d)(1) -p ass; 1. (d)(2)-pa ss; 2.(a)( 1) . Does the Minister wish to make any introductory remarks? HON. M. DOLIN: Briefly yes. The Pension Comm ission is cha rged with th e responsibility of administ ering and enforcing The Pension Benefits Act of Manitoba.

The Act has three main objectives: To register new pension plans; to monitor existing plans; it promotes pension plans and retirement planning and increases public awareness of their importance; and it responds to queries of many concerned employees and plan members as to their rights and entitlements; and where necessary intercedes so that any pension dispute is resolved in a satisfactory manner. The highlights of their activities this year include the fa..:t tha t they have received 89 new plan s for registration, for a total of 726 active plans in the province.

A booklet has been completed which is entitled "Mor e Or Less Than You Bargain For", which is for trustees, union members and labour groups. The Commission, as I'm sure members are aware, was in vited by the Gov ernment of Ma nitoba in September to submit proposals for amendments to The Pension Benefits Act, and is involved in the public hearing part of the process right now. MR. G. MERCIER: Can the Minister indicate how many members of the work force presently have retirement provision coverage? I appreciate you can't be specific. HON. M. DOLIN: There are about 17 5,000 members of private pension plans. MR. G.

MERCIER: That wouldn't include those who have their own registered retirement programs? HON. M. DOLIN: No, it does not. MR. G. ME RCIER: There 's no in dic ation of that number? HON. M. DOLIN: It's about 12 percent of the population. MR. G. MERCIER: Does the Minister still intend to introduce legislation, with respect to pensions at this Session of the Legislature, or is she awa iting a recommendation from the Pension Commission now? HON. M.

DOLIN: I'm awaiting their recommendation, yes, following the receipt of all of the briefs and their study of them - the briefs from the public that is and the presentations made at the public hearings. MR. G. MERCIER: I can tell her, Mr. Chairman, I don't want to go into a debate on this particular subject at this moment in time until we have an opportunity to see the, if we are going to have an opportunity to see the recommendations of the Pension Commission.

Perhaps that's my first question: Will members of the opposition receive a copy of the recommendations and report of the Pension Commission when it is made to the Minister? HON. M. DOLIN: The Green Paper contained the 24 recommendations of the Pension Commission. The Green Paper, that I believe you received, that we made ava ilable, contained their 24 recommendations. Those are the recommendations of the Pension Commission. What they are doing is getting a reaction to those recommendations and then they will report to us on that reaction, but the 24 recommendations of the Pension Commission, you already have. MR.

G. MERCIER: I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. 1414

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 What I'm asking the Minister is, will we also receive a copy of the report and recommendations of the Pension Commission, consequent upon the publ ic hearings? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, that'll be available to you. MR. G. MERCIER: Will the report perhaps contain a

summary of the submissions that have been made? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes, it will. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, the Minister made reference to 89 new pension plans that were registered during the past 12 months. What does that bring the total to? I missed that figure. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. M. DOLIN: Seven hundred and twenty-six active plans. MR. W. STEEN: The Minister mentioned that there are 17 5,000 persons, approxima tely, registered in these, what I would refer to employee/employer type pension plans.

What was the approximate increase by having 89 new plans registered in numbers of persons? HON. M. DOLIN: While there've been 89 new plans, there of course have been terminations of plans over the year as well, fewer terminations, but the actual net number of people involved in the pension plans has remained fairly constant at about 17 5,000. MR. W. STEEN: To the Minister, some years ago, Mr. Chairman, a large motor car dealership in Winnipeg went into receivership and persons that were in that pension plan did not receive their rightful benefits. The then Minister of Labour, Mr.

Russell Paulley, made some amendments to The Pension Act at that time. Can the Minister tell me now how persons, employees that are registered in these registered plans, have safeguards that the dollars that they have deducted from their pay cheques are going to be there for them when they retire? What are the safeguards that the Pension Commission has built in? HON. M. DOLIN: Since the Act came into being, there have been no situations where employees have not received their contributions and interest.

In the case of closings, bankruptcies, termination of the plan, whatever reason - and I am informed that this even is the case in one situation where fraud was involved - the Commis sion does spot checks. Insurance companies and other groups such as that hold money in trust and keep the Commission informed as to what is happening with the plans. MR. W. STEEN: How frequently can her Pension Commission review some 726 pension plans? HON. M. DOLIN: Every plan is reviewed every year, and spot checks are done perhaps five or six times a month or so on those plans where they feel it is necessary to do so. MR. W.

STEEN: To the Minister then, it is still possible that a business concern could have their annual checkup in the month of February, and then the following January the Pension Comm ission could find out that the employer was withholding employer contributions and accepting employee contributions and not forwarding them onto the proper authorities, and if that firm were to go out of business, th en 11 months worth of contributions would be lost by the employees? HON. M. DOLIN: The report then comes from the authorities that you referred to.

If those authorities have not received the contribution, they have a requirement to notify the Commission within 30 days, if not receiving that. So it wouldn't happen that a month would go by and the contributions wouldn't be received. MR. W. STEEN: I believe, Mr. Chairman, the Minister mentioned the Pension Comm ission's three major responsibilities were registration, the monitoring or the policing, and did I hear her correct ly by sa ying promoting or promotions and education? HON. M. DOLIN: Yes. MR. W. STEEN: Could she elaborate to me in what methods they promote and use for educating the public? HON. M.

DOLIN: There's quite a long list of activities; I was getting as much as I could of it for you. There have been approximately 60 public appearances made by staff of the Commission, members of the Commission and so on. There is a booklet that is published. There is co-operation with the Age and Opportunity Centre and information given through that organization, the Chamber of Commerce Labour Organizations. The YWCA has quite an active program in pensions, I believe in pension information disbur sement and the Commission has been involved as an equal partner in that.

There is a full-time staff person who handles inquiries from the public about pensions, retirement planning and so on. The superintendent and the assistant superintendent are out at least once a week speaking publicly or responding to questions about retirement and retirement planning, pension plans. MR. W. STEEN: When th e Honourable Mi nister mentioned 60 public appearances, could she give me a couple of examples of what is meant by that? To service clubs or to employee groupings that don't have a pension plan? HON. M.

DOLIN: Yes, you've just named several of them, service clubs, groups who don't have pension plans, interested groups of employees. I was involved in onEl recently with a consumers' group and so on. MR. W. STEEN: Could the Minister tell the committee how much of a staff the Pension Commission comprises of and who are the members of the Pension Commission Board? 1415

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 HON. M. DOLIN: There are seven people on staff of the Pension Commission. I have the names of the members of the Commission itself for you. If you just wait a second, I'll find them in my other book. John Corp is the Chair person, he is an actuary as you are probably aware; Jean Minish is the Vice-Chairperson; Mr. Battershill; Ms. Cortes; Mr. Enns; Mr. Friesen, another actuary; Professor Holley; Ms. Thompson; and Mr. Yurchak. MR. W. STEEN: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I appreciate the Minister's waiting for the recommendations of the Pension Commission, but in view of concerns expressed by a number of organizations that some changes might well result in a reduction of jobs, will that be a factor for the Pension Commission to consider in making their recommendations? HON. M. DOLIN: I have noticed that those who are recommending that a slower process be used to implement the cost items, which are not the first 17 recom mendations of th e Comm ission but those following that in the booklet, I haven't seen that they have disputed the viability of those recommendations.

But what they have recommended is that there be a phasing-in of those recommendations. I think that is perhaps a reasonable app roach to use and I will look at it closely when the recommendations do come in. I don't want to second-guess the commission and indicate what they are going to recommend to us, but I would like to point out again that the majority of the recommendations of the Pension Commission are not cost items. MR. W.

STEEN: To the Minister, I would imagine that the Minister would agree with me, and I think most members of the committee, that it would be desirable that every employee in Manitoba be enrolled in a pension plan. What is the Minister's personal feeling? Should pension plans be compulsory for employers to initiate? HON. M. DOLIN: Well, I want to point out to the member that the Canadian Life and Health Association has recommended that all people be members of the pension plan. They feel that pension plans are important for everyone to have. MR. W. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, I said to the Minister that I would believe that every person attending this committee today would think it would be desirable for all Manit obans to be enrol led in a pension plan, particularly employee-employer relationships, but the facts are that certain employers won't buy into pension plans because they either can't afford it or they don't wish to or they just don't want to participate. So, I ask the Minister if she would think that perhaps it would be time that we had compulsory pension plans for all employee-employer relationships? HON. M.

DOLIN: There is a program that is developing with a voluntary employer pension plan program. The intent is to take a look at that program, introduce it perhaps on a volunt ary basis and see how it works, see how much take-up there is on it. It has certainly been recommended by both the Chamber of Commerce and the Manitoba Federation of Labour. They both agree that this is an important item and a way in which we should move. The CPP is a program that is in place for everyone.

That is one that I don't hear employers complaining about, at least they haven't complained to us about it, and that's something that everyone is involved in. So, I think that we have to look perhaps towards moving to a better degree of financial stability for people who are beyond the workforce age and that is perhaps what we are striving for. MR. W. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, the Canada Pension Plan is a compulsory plan and it was introduced under those terms, but its benefits aren't sufficient for a person to retire on, and I believe that it is desirable that a person have a pension scheme or plan over and above the CPP. As the Minister has mentioned that the Canadian Life Underwriters and Pension Planners have said that they would find it desirable if everybody was in a plan.

Madam Minister mentions that they would like to try and work it initially on a voluntary basis, but with 17 5,000 Manitobans, which is what? - about 40 percent or 35 percent of our total workforce currently enrolled in a pension plan. Does she really think a voluntary plan will bring the other 60 or 65 percent of the employees within the province into a plan of some kind? HON. M. DOLIN: What the member is raising is a complex issue, obviously, and one in which a lot of factors have to be taken into consideration.

One fact to remember, one statistic perhaps to remember, is that 40 percent of the people retiring in Manitoba do so on these compulsory programs that we've been referring to, at 75 percent of their working salary. That's not an indication of their great retirement income; it's a sad indication of their working income and their low rate of pay and so on. I think that we have to be careful that we don't get people caught into a situation where their disposable income is removed from them at a rate that makes their take-home pay, you know, unviable.

We have to do that at the same time that we look at the need to create a secure retirement situation for them. It seems to me that the important objective at this point in time is to get those people in Manitoba who have no pension income to supplement the fairly small compulsory CPP and so on, to get those people involved in a pension plan and that certainly is a way that I intend to go over the next year or so. MR. W. STEEN: Well, Mr. Chairman, it's only going to be a matter of a few years and just about everybody who is retiring will be getting some benefits from the Canada Pension Plan.

It has been in force for a number of years now. So, it's only going to take a few more before everybody who does retire will have something from it. 1416 But, as I said earlier, .it isn't enough and we have a large block of persons who are retiring and going out

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 only on the compulsory schemes that are in pla ce now. The Mi nister made some reference to the fact that she would like to see, on a voluntary basis, these pensions en ha nced. Would she ever consider making it compulsory that employers establish a pension scheme to enhanc e the CPP plan for Manitoba workers? HON. M. DOLIN: Perhaps I can relate to the member what the Pension Commission feels on this particular issue since it is their job to investigate these situations and advise the government on the situation and the direction that they feel we ought to be going.

Their recommendation is that the voluntary plan ought to be put into place and that it ought to be monitored and that if it does not prove to be successful on a voluntary basis, that then ther e ought to be some provision put in place for requiring employers to become involved in pension plans with their employees.

There is also something else that I think the member may or may not be aware of and that is that besides the Pension Commission and their recommendations and so on, we have an interdepartmental working group on pensions to deal with the rather parallel problem of federal pension plans, which we have been referring to, and our Manitoba pension plans and how these two balance each other, whether the incentive ought to be entirely provincial, or whether the incentive ought to be federal, or whether each should share in creating a pension base for people who are looking forward to their retirement years.

I think that's an important point and I believe the recommendations of that group, upon which the Pension Commission has representation I might add, so they are working in concert, but the recommendations from that group will be important for us to pass along to the Federal Government, who has again dela yed any imp le men tation of an improvement in pension plans. MR. W. STEEN: So, I can take it, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister doesn't plan in the near future any drastic change to the method of the operation for the Pension Commission, that they will continue on as they have been.

I would say that, in my opinion, they've done a good job of encouraging employers to establish pension plans, being available for employees who have concerns and don't want to go to the employer, but wish to go to an intermediate party and can go to the Pension Commission's employees for information and assistance in understanding what their benefits will be or may be, and that the Minister has no plans for any drastic changes in the operation of the Pension Commission. HON. M.

DOLIN: Of the, I think, several questions that the member asked, I don't plan any drastic changes to the Pension Commission itself or to their mandate. Certainly their man date has been expanded this year with the activities surrounding the proposed legislative changes. I think also the introduction of the Voluntary Emplo yer Pension Plan will make it possible for employers to get involved in pension plans that perhaps didn't before.

The Pension Commission has a particular concern for thos e employees earning between about $18, 000 and $30,000 a year, who are not involved in pension plans, and will be targetting that group with their information 1417 and encouragement to become involved in a pension plan. MR. W. STEEN: I will conclude by saying that if an employer constituent of mine asked me, is it going to be compulsory that I establish a pension plan at my place of business, I can say that the Minister, in the near future, is not planning to bring in legislation that makes it compulsory for that employer to establish a pension plan? HON.

M. DOLIN: That's true. That's correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)( 1)-p ass; 2.(a)(2)- pass; 2.(b)(1) - the Member for St. No rbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, no doubt the Minister has a few comments she might make, and perhaps she could just explain the $300,000 increase in Salaries. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. M. DOLIN: There are several items that answer that question. The first is the general salary increase for us, the shortfall, the share of this department's finding that difference is $90,000.00. The actual wage increase for 198 3-84, $1 40,900; the 27th pay period is $63,700.00. MR. G.

MERCIER: Is there an increase in staff? HON. M. DOLIN: There is no increase in staff. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, did the Minister wish to make any comments about any significant areas being undertaken in this appropriation? HON. M. DOLIN: Are you requesting information on new ventures of some sort? MR. G. MERCIER: Yes. HON. M. DOLIN: This department is involved, as you know, in inspection and licensing and so on. The only change from their activities previously has been the development of two corresponde nce courses for municipal buildin g inspect ors. Both cour ses are available now and are in place.

We have also been inv olv ed in the solid fuel appl iances, dispensing information and so on upon request and through news releases and so on. MR. G. MERCIER: There are no significant problems? A few years ago, there were problems with the gas connectors and various other areas, but there are no significant problems in this area, predicted at least. HON. M. DOLIN: No, not at this time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The time being 4:30, I am interrupting the proceedings of this committee for the Private Members' Hour. The committee will resume at 8:00 p.m. this evening.

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 SUPPLY - AGRICUL TURE MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture, Item 1. (

a) the Minister's Salary - the Member for Turtle Mounta in. MR. B. RANSOM: A question to the Minister, Mr. Chairman. Two or three days ago, the Minister provided me with some information concerning the contract on organic farming or ecological farmi ng. He advised me that a Mr. Michael Janssen was the economist working on that contract. I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he can advise the House whether or not Mr. Michael Janssen is a relative of Mr. Bill Janssen, the former Deputy Minister of Agriculture and a person whom I believe is now under contract to the Minister of Transport MR.

CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I believe that is the case, but I'm not positive of that. I believe that is the case. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 1. (a) - the Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I would like the Minister of Agriculture to have that information provided for the committee that he said he would check into. I would hope that he doesn't leave it like all the other information that he has indicated that he would provide for the committee. Mr. Chairman, on the Minister's Sal ary, there were a certain number of things that were requested by the opposition.

One of those particular pieces of inf ormation was just today in question period, the communication that was sent to the Federal Government on the lowering of initial grain prices. I would hope, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister does not carry out his traditional record of ind icating th at he's ma de all this contact or communication and then we never have it provided for us. That, Mr. Chairman, has been a habit of his and it doesn't wash. Mr.

Chairman, I want to, in dealing with the Minister's Sal ary, indicate as I did in my opening remarks that under his government's term of office the Manitoba agricultural community have seen a decline in their net income for three consecutive years now. Granted, it did not come about overnight, but is a period of diff icult times and particularly the drought and lowering of inventories were some of the initial reasons for the beginning years of his administration's lower returns, but the inability of this Minister of Agriculture to deal with the real problems of the farmers are becoming more evident day by day.

MR. D. ORCHARD: He's an abject fa ilure. MR. J. DOWNEY: The Estimates in the Department of Agriculture, Mr. Cha irman, are again another example of the Minister not having the kind of strength as a Minister to represent Manitoba's No. 1 industry. The reduction in actual funds for the operation of the department all the way through the Estimates; the fact that he has lost staff without even indicating during the initial discussions on the Communications Branch. He has had four people taken from that branch, didn't report it to the House that it was even being considered, but said they were taken from him. Mr.

Chairman, that's not acceptable to a province where they have traditionally felt they have been strongly represented not just during our term of office, but I would even say during the term of office by the Member for Lac du Bonnet. Prior to that, of course, the track record of provincial Ministers of Agriculture has been one that has been pretty good, Mr. Chairman. They've been strong people and have stood up, have not accepted cuts in the departmental expenditures of the magnitude without, Mr.

Chairman, either reducing staff in certain areas or programs in areas that were different to a new administration or a change in policy. So what I'm saying, Mr. Chairman, is we have now a Mi nister of Agriculture in charge of th e farm community at a time when the farm community are going through pressures from outside of the Jurisdiction of the Province of Ma nitoba, and what are we getting from the Minister of Agriculture who is supposed to be representing that farm community? We are seeing an erosion of their representation at national levels, Mr.

Chairman ; we are seeing an erosion of it at international levels. The particular Minister of Agriculture takes great pride, as I said the other night, in taking some rather unnecessary shots at the United States when they indicated that it would possibly be a good move if there was a co-operative effort made by Canada and the United States to reduce the grain supplies, the acreage, Mr. Chairman, to encourage price increases.

What this Minister of Agriculture said to the United States, the press report that I read said, tell them to go home and mind their own business, It was headlined in one of the local papers, Mr. Chairman. Rather than saying to the United States, let's see how that program that you introduced is going to work, let's complement them if we are able to obtain a higher return for the agricultural commo dities. Let's recommend to the government in Ottawa that there be a co-operative effort to reduce the acreages of grain produced in Manitoba or in Canada, I should say, to encourage increased prices.

In fact, part of the announc ement today was just precisely that, that there is an encouragement to reduce some of the acreage to help support what the United States have put in motion. There have been no positive com ments coming from this Minis ter of Agriculture in that regard, but just a shot at tho se particular people who are trying to resolve the overall problems of farm incomes, Mr. Chairman. So the overall problem that we have is a farm community under extreme pressure, a Minister of Agriculture who said this morning that he tabled or he sent a communication to Ottawa. I would have thought, Mr.

Chairman, he would have by now been able to walk into the committee or have had a staff member bring that communication into this Cham ber. - (Interjection) - I'll be speaking for a few minutes and I would hope by the time I'm through speaking, he could either rise, Mr. Chairman, and interrupt me and have the document tabled ... HON. B. URUSKI: I have a draft, but . . . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, he says, he has a draft. Why wouldn't he give us the draft copy? 1418

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 HON. B. URUSKI: I was going to give you the original. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I again ask the Minister, he said he would table certain documents. I want them tabled so that we can deal with it during his Estima tes this afte rnoon. If we don't have the information, how can we truly believe what he is saying because he's on record on having been less than straigh tforward on certain issues? The reduction in agricultur e spending and th e servicing of the farm community, Mr. Chairman, are not acceptable. A reduction in the actual expenditures, Mr.

Chairman - (Interjection) it's outlined through every line and I will go through one or two more then, if he wants me to. A reduction in expenditures in the Animal Industry Branch, for example, were $787,700 last year. This year, they are $67 1 ,000 for the expenses. A MEMBER: That's with a 27 percent increase to the civil servants? MR. J. DOWNEY: No, the salaries are the only thing that went up. It was the salaries that went up, Mr. Chairman, not the service, not the actual supplying of resource material or resource backup to the farm community, that reduced.

But at the same time he said to the farmers who have had three years of a net decline in their income, we're going to tax you more to pay for higher wages for the people who work for the province but we expect you to take a lower income and we're not going to provide you with any resources. In fact we'll provide you with less resources to do the kinds of things you've traditionally done, so that he's going the wrong way, Mr. Chairman. He's putting additional tax costs on the producers to pay for wages, and at the same time he's reducing the resources of the Department of Agriculture. It's not acceptable, Mr.

Chairman. Another good example, and again I can't go by it without mentioning, Mr. Chairman, and that is the reduction of spending for the 4-H movement in Manitoba. I can't help but say to the Minister of Agriculture, I would have thought he'd have had a better political antenna than the one he showed that he had by allowing a reduction to the youth in rural Manit oba. It's not, Mr.

Chairman, very easy to take because I, and I'm sure many of my coll eagues who have participated or have had family participate in, appreciate the volunteer work that goes into it in the country, and the least that this Minister of Agriculture could have done was to continue to support and in fact increase the kinds of funds that went into that program. Not acceptable, Mr. Chairman, and he's not going to get over it very easily, I can assure you.

I can assure you if I'm to recommend to every one of my colleagues the kind of speech they're to give in rural Manitoba, it is precisely that this Minister of Agriculture does not believe that the 4-H movement should be funded. In fact, he believes it should be reduced. At the same time he's giving the Civil Service an increase of 27.5 percent over 30 months. That's voluntarism, Mr. Chairman, voluntarism at its most unfair approa ch. Mr.

Chairma n, the Minister of Agriculture has spent a lot of time in the last few months, since the last sitting of the Legislature, trying to explain why we need a bill to control the ownership of land in Manitoba, The Farm Ownership Act. Mr. Chairman, he has not been able to substantiate, as my colleague from Lakeside put the numbers on the record, as we have received the actual figures from the municipalities who are dealing day­ by-d ay with what is happ en ing.

The Minis ter of Agriculture has spent a majority of his time worrying about putting in pla ce legislative controls that reduce the freedoms of Manitobans and Canadians without, Mr. Chairman, a substantial amount of current evidence that would give us, or give this Legislature, or give the people of Manitoba reason to believe that it's a priority item at this time. You know, when you look at a lot of the municipalities in Manitoba, Mr. Chairman, the majority of them are owned by Manitobans. This Minister of Agriculture used a 1975 -76 study, took selective figures, Mr.

Chairman, from that study, and painted a picture as if Manitoba was being taken over by absentee foreign ownership. Mr. Chairman, that is not the case. In fact, our concern as an opposition representing a large part of Manitoba, with a lot of our colleagues representing urban Mani toba, realize the importance of the economy of the farm community, and it's not whether or not an absentee owner is owning the land. I will touch briefly on what the Minister indicated on a CBC radio show a few days ago, what he indicated an absentee owner was.

He indicated an d, you know, I still have a hard time understanding a Minister of Agriculture who would say that an absentee farm owner in Manitoba is a person who lives in Winnipeg and farms at Melita. That, is the Ministers own words, on a CBC radio program he said an absentee farmer is one who lives in Winnipeg, but farms at Melita, but what isn't an absentee owner is one that lives at Arborg, but farms at Fisher Branch. You know, I for the lif e of me cannot figure that kind of a man out.

I cannot figure why he would go to his own constituency and use an example of saying, if you live in Arborg and you farm at Fisher Branch, that's okay, but if your a Manitoban and live in Winnipeg and farm at Melita - (Interjection) - That's right, anybody's son, anybody if they farm - we use Melita, he used Melita, and that's why I'm using the example, Mr. Chairman - then you don't qualify to own land in Manitoba. I happen to be a farmer at Melita, I have a residence in Winnipeg on a part time basis. Does that disqua lify me from becoming a land owner and a farmer in my time when I'm not in the Legislature?

Is that the kind of a legislative program we're going to continue to see from this Minister? You know, it's not acceptable, Mr. Chairman. It isn't the priority problems that the farm community are facing today. We've seen an increase in bankruptcies by 380 percent in Manitoba under his administration. We saw him introduce an ill -conceived Interest Rate Relief Program that had such restricted limits on it that only 400 farmers, by the Minister's own numbers, were included or allo wed to participate in that program.

I'm sorry I'm mixed up, he indicated that I was out by 300. 700 farmers out of 30,000 were helped by the program. Helped to what degree one doesn't know. Then we move on, Mr. Chairman, to the responsibility that the Minister has under financing of farms through the Mani toba Agricultur al Credit Corporation. He 1419

Tuesday, 5 April, 1983 introduced to program, leading the public to believe, and the farmers to believe that there was $10 0 million ava ilable in support for farmers to help put this years crop in through operating loans supplied by the MACC or a bank guarantee, I'm sorry. But the program that he introduced is worse than the one that was already in place, Mr. Chairman, because the guidelines from the current program, the one that was in place, allowed a person to borrow up to $60,000. He removed that lid of $60,000 and moved it to $12 5,000. But what he did, Mr.

Chairman, he said to the farmer who wanted to borrow money, you have to now own 20 percent, you have to have 20 percent equity in your operation before you can get any money or any guarantee. That increased, Mr. Chairman, from 10 percent. That in creased from 10 percent, Mr. Cha irman. As well, what did he do? He told the farmers that won't qual ify, or you won't qua lify if you have current arrears or outstanding debts, that you can't borrow the money to participate in this program. Mr.

Chairman, I will again go on the record and say that this Minister of Agriculture's program, even though he's had banks sign up to it, even though he's had work done with the banking community, I have had information from the banking industry that's saying it will be used very little because of some of the guidelines that have been put in place, and that 10 to 20 percent equity is one of the major ones. As well, Mr. Chairman, I can go on and on and on, on MACC, or the lack of his ability to manage it, to serve the farm community.

Again today we asked this Minister of Agriculture if he would reduce the 18 percent loans that we're taking out during a period of extremely and intolerable high interest rates, and I agree. I was the Minister when the interest rates were going up, but we didn't raise them to what we were being asked to raise them through MACC. There was a restriction put on them. We did not increase them at the - (Interjection) - no, it's not, Mr. Cha irman. As well, Mr.

Cha irman, the Minister is now reluctant - because he is now the Minister, it isn't us - he's now reluctant to say to those farmers who have been tied in at 18 percent interest, I won't change it, the only way you can do it is go and get money elsewhere, Mr. Cha irman. Go and get money elsewhere and I will accept your money. I asked him today whether he had, in fact, allowed for that to be paid off without penalty. He said he had to take the question as notice. Well, I respect a man who admits he doesn't know where it's at, but how long has he been asked about this question, Mr. Cha irman?

We've been after him now, for how long? And he still doesn't know that kind of basic answer to deal with whether or not there is a penalty charged if tho se loans are written off. No t acc eptable, Mr. Chairman, not acceptable at all. He should have known that. He should have had a policy statement during these Esti mates dealing with that, but he has just buried his head in his shoulders and said, well, as long as we can walk through tho se committee hearings and take all the lumps the Tories are prepared to give us, then I'll accept them and we'll continue to slough along.

We want some specific answers and some acti on, Mr. Cha irman, and that's what we're after. We go to the Crown lands, Mr. Chairman. Again, the Minister comes up with what? A pretty poor record. What is he doing to the producers who are renting Crown land - increasing, Mr. Chairman, not paying attention to the costs or the returns for livestock producers, not paying attention to Federal Government guidelines - what is he doing?

He's saying to the Department of Agriculture, we want to get back the administrative costs of the operation of the Crown Lands Department so that we can make the farmers pay for the administrative costs to the department for operating of Crown lands. My coll ea gue from Lakeside th e other night challenged the Minister, and I did as well prior to that, challenged the Minister to have all his Cabinet Ministers recover all the costs of operation of the government services like the Parks Department. Why does he burden, Mr.

Chairman, the farm community with th ose kinds of costs when not one of his other cabinet colleagues are doing it? Mr. Chairman, he's weak. He's a weak Minister of Agriculture, not acceptable to the farm community. He is weak and will not speak out for the farmers. It is not acceptable that the increase in Crown lands has nothing to do with the returns the cattle producers are getting for their livestock. Mr. Chai rman, the Minister has flound ered and continually criticized during his opposition years of us not taking action for, or moving into the area of Beef Stabilization. Mr.

Chairman, we spent quite a lot of our time in the first couple of years cleaning up a mess that w