Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, MAY 5, 1976 Number 57 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER ,..

~'ay 5, 1976 The House met at 3:0() ~.". Yr. Speaker in the r.ha:f r. VFl. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 2450 IB-1 I am pleased to welcome to the galleries ten Gra~e I X students with their teacher . ~ ir. nandelJ,from the E . A-llutler Memorial H:fgh School in Robinsons and to the yot1ng students from E.A .ButJer ' !emorial High School I extenc:l on behalf of all hon. members a courteous welcome and the T¥ish tha.t you ~>'ill find your stay here instructive and interesting. S0!AE HON • ?"E~"!lET' S : HeRr, hear! STATE~'ENTS BY 1-'INISTF.PS: t'P,.

SPEAKER: The hon. ~'inister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment. ~-IF . MUFPHY: 1-fr. Speaker, J just rvant to take a few short moments of the !louse to announce the fact that the .Department of EnvtronTl'ent this month is launching an anti-litter campaign. Our beloved Province has always been classified as somewhat dirty with respect to litterinp and pollution and this type of thing. ~- 11'. NEARY: ~ '1>. }'llFPHY: Could the minister cle;m up my d.esk lvhiJe he is at it? Yr. Speaker,rhere wilJ be a short being distributed to various schools, ler,ion groups, service clubs and so on and so forth.

It is not a great sophisticated thing because of the restraint in the budget. There is very little m0ney in my c1epartl!'ent f.or propaganda of this type. But all I want, Sir, is to ask if <1JJ members of the. House ~muld assist us in their own particular areas. If there are any great prohl ems the y exper:!ence in any W'lY feel free to call the l'epartrnent 0f the Environi"ent and Tve will d0 1vhat H £' can to aJJeviate some 0f tl1e r.uck t h<'lt c:loes pile up after the '~inter season. r'l'. SPF.AKrP: ~'P.

ROBET'TS: The hon. l,eac1er of the Opposition. }'r. ~peal:er, I do not need to say very much about the minister's statement except that of course ~ore on this side of the House are delighted that the government are movinp; against the litter problem. But I would like to say publicly as I just mentioned to the minister ~•hen he was kind enough to come over ~orith his own contribution to the anti-litter problem, namely three pieces of paper

:May 5, 1976 Tape 2450 IB-2 !'R. ROBERTS: in connection with it which have been given to each of us, a suggestion which I think is worth looking at which had come to me from a number of students in my own distrtct. The minister ts familar with it.

But it is quite stmply this, there were a number or schools in my district last year - and I have been told there are a number who would ltke to do it this year -who undertook as a project, a civ]c project to go out and try to clean up some of the areas, the roads and the public areas simply by the children going out on a fine afternoon and picking up the various bits of litter and putting them in garbage bags. and then these were in due course put away at what used to be called a d.ump and is now called,I believe,a waste disposal site,but it is a dump by any other name.

Mil • MURPHY : ~'R • FOBERT S : Still smells as sweet. The l!linister says, "Sttll smells as sweet". The minister's olfactory senses and mine are different. But the problem came siJllply that garbage bags being a petroleum-based product are becoming very expensive.

So my suggestion is simply to suggest to the minister that he might consider seeing if somewhere in the est ]mates the government can find a fe\•; thousand do] lars - it would not take very ~any - possibly with a view to sending them out to schools, or letting schools have a $50.00 or $100.00 grant to enable them to purchase a large supply of garbage bags so that they could go. I think it would be a better use of public money than many of the uses to which pub] lc funds are put by governments here and elsewhere.

I know that to say to the students to find it is a difficult thing because, you know, the costs are not insubstantial and of course the school boards with the stringencies with whidh they must live cannot touch it. He solved our problem in the old district of Hhite Bay North last year by the arm being put on the member for a contribution but I would not commend that 6755

~ay 5, 1976 Tape 2451 IB-1 _MR. ROBERTS ; because there are fifty-four communities in my district now and even at $25.00 each that would be $1,100. But I .iust make the suggestion - MR.l fiTIIPRY: Bring it out to $1,000 even. JlR. ROBERTS: If the minister wishes I will give $1,000 if he will. MR. MJRPHY: }IJ?... ROBERTS: Right. I will promise $1,000 and you give $1,000. The roinister's promise and my gift, <;:ir. That ts typical of the Tory approach. But I will match the minister ~ollar for dollar now on a gj_ft for this purpose.

But I do think it is something the government might have a look at. titter is becoming an increasingly great prob]em. Anybody who drives along our roads can only marvel at the nurnher of bits of broken class that now decorate the highways of Newfoundland and !.abrader. It is something we coulc1 do without. Jt"is SOIT'E'thing which, yon know, anything we could help to clean up we should. 0 0 0 ¥R. SPEAKEP: The hon. ~'inister of Tourism. l!R. HICKEY: 1-<"r . Speaker, may I make a statement before you get on to that? MR. SPEAKER: Do we have leave to revert to Statements by ¥inisters? MR.

NEARY: If it is not involving - }~. HICKEY: If it is on H ? ~lR. NEARY: If it is not on it. MR. HICKEY: It is not on it. ~IR, NEARY: Okay, by leave. Jo.IR.HICKEY: Thank you, }'r. Speaker, and also thank you Yr. Member. HR. NEARY: Any time. }IR, HI(]{EY: l'r. Speaker, I wish to inform the House that during the past week officials of my department met with representatives of Parks Canada to further discuss potential national park sites in Labrador. Parks Canada has 1 over the past several years,done a number of preliminary surveys in Labrador to determine the possible sites for national parks.

The areas with most potential have now been identified.

}fay 5, 1976 Tape 2451 }1'. HICKEY: These are the Torngat ¥ountains area of Northern Labrador and the Mealy ~fountain area near Goose Bay. A joint planning team has IB-2 been established between the Provincial Parks Division of my department and Parks Canada to carry out a detailed assessment of these sites during the coming Summer. After these surveys have been completed Parks Canada has fndicated they wilJ be in a position to make more definite proposals to the Province with regards to the establishment of national parks in Labrador including proposed boundaries and use concepts. I wish to emphasjze, Mr.

Speaker, that before any final decision is made by the government on land areas to be set aside as national parks.there will be full and complete consultation and involvement w:lth residents of the co111111unities in Labrador that could in any ~1ay be affected by the establishment of such parks. ~iR. SPEAKEP : 'MR. SHALL WOOD : The hon. member for Twillingate. Before the gentleman sits down 1 the Torngat Mountains, there is nobody living anywhere near there, is there? }·rp. HICKEY: No. MP .• Sf!ALLHOOD: That is way down in the Northern Coast of Labrador. A park down there?

What, for the birds and the animals? '1R. SPEAKER: MR . CANNING: follows: NOTICES OF MOTI ON. The han. member for Burin-Placent1a Hest. }fr, Speaker, I rise to give notice of motion as HHEPEAS the fishing industry of Newfoundland and Labrador is one of the Province's main 1ndustries, employing more people than any other; ANn

WHEREAS most districts in the province depend directly or indirect]y on the fishery for an economic foundation; MID VHE'REAS this House confines debate on the estimates to a maximum of seventy-five hours; AND

WHEREAS over two thirds of the alloted time period has been used to debate the estimates of only five of the twenty departments of G757

f.tay 5, 1976 Tape 2451 Jll -1 H". CANNING: Government that require funds; ANn

WHEREAS it is now evident that the current rate of progres11 ~·j l l not provide sufficient time for a detailed and proper e!tantination of the estimates of the nepartment of Fisheries: B£ IT RESOLVED TIIEPF.FORE that this House allow an extension to the time limit specifically to provirle for unlt~ite~ ~ebate o! the estimates of the nepartment of Fisheries. And the resolution is secon~ed by the hon . member for Fortune-Hermitage (J . ~insor). Sm'E Hl)N . MEt-fJIERS: Rear, hear! ,..

May 5, 1976 Tape 2452 IB-1 MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. YP. HELLS: To a poi.nt of order~ if a point of order is the proper mode in which to comment on this, r•r. Speaker. I just heard the resolution or the motion read. It would appear to me that it probably is out of order but I would li.ke to have a copy of it and have a look at it. So I mention this fact now and perhaps Your Honour was going to consiner the same point. !>'F.. ROBEPTS: ~r. Speaker, if I may. I cannot respond to the point of order because the most that the hon. gentleman for J>i.lbride (~r. Wells) has done is say that he may raise one.

We will have some copies 'Provided and of course he should look at it,but I ~omuld invite the hon. member to let us know his reasons why he thinks it js out of order because I was consulted by my colleague in draftin~ the motion, notice of wh:lch he has given,and I believe it to be in order. It would have the effect of amendin~ the Standing Orders 1 but of course that is within our prerogative as a House and it 1.s not restricted to a member of the government to move such a motfon. It does not involve expenditure and that is the only restriction.

But all I say to the han. gentleman is t cannot reply to his point of order because he has not made one on the merits. '1-'fl' • WELLS : It was a case of giving notice reaJ ly that t will raise it after I have studied it. _1-!R. ROBERTS: 1-lell we have given notice of rnotjon and he has given notice, Sir. The han. gentleman has given notice of an objection on the grounds it might be out of order. I give notice, Sir, that I will respond to his notice of objection on the merits. And I believe the motion is in order. ~'R • 1-'El.l.

S : And it may well be but I would like to just have an opportunity to have a look at it. }ffi. SPEAKEP: The Chair gives notice that it will listen with interest to any argument that may be forthcom1.ng. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR t-1HICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: NP. SPEAKER: The han. 1-'inis ter of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: ~r. Speaker, I have answers to Question No. 365 6759

1'-fay 5, 1976 Tape 2452 IB-2 MR. H. COLLINS: in the name of t:he hon. member for Twi.llingat:e (~r. Smallwood),and Questi.on No. 368 in the name of t:he same hon. member, 365, 368. ¥11 • SPEAKEP : The hon. !-linister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: ~'r. Speaker, in response t:o quest: ions fr0111 a number of hon. members 7 and certainly in response to statements with regards to the issujng of some 112 so-called complimentary licenses,in keeping ~1ith my agreement to t'lble t:he list I wjsh no~! to do that for t:he year 1974 which was the matter which the Auditor General commented on in his report. I want also, }~r.

Speaker, t:o table as ~rell the list of what WP. consider pure and absolute complimentary licenses over and above with regards to VIP to whom those licenses are issued. I indicated, !-lr. Speaker, at the time when I explained to t:he House that this system was used in 1974,which ~'as before roy time in t:he department, but at the same time it was also usea in 1975. So I have here as well the list of people whose names were drawn from various regions of the Province for the year 1975 and I table those as \Jell as the list: of "IPs who were given licenses. So this shoulv clear the whole matter up I hope. 1'R..

ROBERTS: Was ~'r. Pnmsey one of those men? ~"T'. DOODY: No, his brother. Ml? . ROBEP.TS: l!js brother. ~'n. . Sl-'ALUJOOD: Prince. l"P. PECKFORD: Prince js rip;ht. >"P HICKEY: Pr:l.nce did not get a license for the Avalon,by the way. ~~. SHALLWOOD: We sent: one to General Franco, we sent: one to ~r. Salizar.hut they never came. MR. DOODY: l'P .. HICKEY: I am not: surprised. He gave one to t:he vice-consul for Spain,"t-lr. Speaker,if that is any satisfaction. }'P. S~'ALUmo:n: hl.d he took the place of General Franco. MF. HICKEY: ran I assume nobody wants those nm1 after all the uproar'?

SOME RON • MEMBERS : Hear, he.ar!

~ fay 5, 19 76 Tape 2454 IB-3 }m. Hir~Y : I am not about to start giving the~ out. MR. DOODY: Yaybe next year you can deliver them. ~ "!! .• SP.EAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: ~r. Speaker, I have 6761

Hay 5, 1976 Tape No. 2453 NM- 1 MR. COLLINS: the answers to a couple of more questions in the name of the same bon. member, the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), the answer to question 3Q3 and the answer to question No. 398. I think that is just about all of the answers to questions in the name of the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood). I do not know if I answered 398 of them but I answered a lot of them and I hope that they "torill be useful in the compilation of the next book which is being prepared. NR. SMALLWOOD: I hope so but - ~IR. Rm~: Do not be nasty. ~IR.

SMALLWOOD: - that is not why I asked them 1although it may so appear. ORAL QUESTIONS : ~IR. SPEAKER: The hon, Leader of the Opposition. 1~. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications, Sir, arising out of the tragedy which occurred west of Grand ~alls last evenin~, of which the House is aware, then two ladies, both named Mrs. Churchill, I believe they were sisters- in-law, were drowned in a most tragic accident, :::ould the minister to begin with, Sir, tell the House just what involvement if any his officials had?

Now I am not allowed in a question to outline what I understand to be the facts,but can I say that it is my understanding that the road was under water, the Trans-Canada was under water, that is the portion that was closed for several months, and that there were inadequate warning deviees given • I think that is the crux of what I have been told and my colleagues have gathered. But could We begin by asking the minister for a general statement of exactly what steps his officials took in connection with the events which led to the tragic death of these two ladies7 MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Transportation and Communications. li ~ " ') l ll ••

May 5, 1976 Tape No. 2453 NM- 2 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, it was an unfortunate tragedy that occurred yesterday in the Grand Falls - Buchans region. The

section of the Trans-Canada that was flooded this past winter, and was closed up until over a month ago,was re-opened a month ago when the water level on the Exploits River went down. Yesterday morning at eight o'clock Price (Nfld.) Limited informed my Uistrict Director at Grand Falls that Price (Nfld.) Limited would be lifting their damns at two o'clock in the morning on the Exploits River in the Millertown region, and they expected that the crest of the water would be reaching Grand Falls at 2:00 P.M. yesterday. MR. ROBERTS: Twelve hours. MR. MORGAN: Twelve hours after. Yesterday afternoon Mr.

Kevin Langdon, my District Director in Grand Falls controlling the Grand Falls region,went to the area at three o'clock, examined the water level -there was no increase­ but because of the warning given by Price he assigned a foreman at Badger to keep a close watch on the situation. The foreman at Badger ~~ent to the area a&ain at five o'clock yesterdav. afternoon, and again at seven-thirty. And at seven-thirty he noticed there was a difference in the water level on the river.

So there were warning signs placed, yesterday evening 7:30P.M., barricades on each side of the road with warning lights, flashing warning lights, That was seven-thirty. At nine 0 I clock, or between nine and 9: 10. according to the reports received the accident occurred. The foreman was back on the site at nine - fifteen and the water level was then to the point where approximately three inches of water had up onsides of the pavement, not the middle of the road, not covered, but both sides because the highway is so~t of peaked. MR. ROBERTS: The pavement rises - ~~.MORGAN: Yes, in the middle.

So there·were approximately three 6763

~y 5, 1976 Tape No. 2453 NM- 3 MR. MORGAN: inches of water on each side of the Trans-Canada in that area. Now the warning that was given to the Department yesterday morning was a sort of a normal warning given each year by Price for the past number of years. But because of the flooding situation this year there was some extra precautions taken by the D;istrict Director by having periodic che.c.ks made. Again I would like to point out that this year the flooding of that

section of highway was the first in the ten year history o.f the 'lighway. Again I repeat that although we have not got tangible evidence, there was a raise in the level of the dam, the dam itself was raised six feet in the Rushy Pond area, the Rushy Pond Brook, (j . .., !: , ; IJ ·t ,..

May 5, 1976 Tape no. 2454 Page l - mw r1r. Morgan. That was raised last year,l97S,by Price (Nfld) Limited. I would like to point out also that this extension of the dam was against the - it was put there even with the objections of our department. But again permission was given by government through another government agency or another government department. MR. ROBERTS: Was that a provincial decision or federal? ~ffi.. MORGAN: It '1as provincial.

They requested permission through the Provincial Department of Environment, but I also understand that there was some consultation with the "Federal Department of Environment. But the dam was ra~~ed with objections from the Department of Transportation and Co111111unications. This is the first year that any flooding of this nature has occurred. And uufortunately the precautions that were taken, although t.hey were taken by tho;, department, did not prevent the accident. The road was closed shortly after the accident occured. In fact around 9:30 p.m. the. road was closed. MR. ROBERTS: ~ffi..

MORGAN: Nine thirtv last ni~ht? The water level raised quite fast between - at 7:30 p.m. there was no need for any concern. There was a trip by the foreman to the area at 7:30 p.m. Upon returning between 9:00p.m. and 9:10p.m., shortly before the accident occurred ,the water level was up to the point of over the road. So the district people were anticipating the major crest of the water to be in that area as indicated by Price to be around 2:00 p.m. yesterday afternoon.

So myDistrict Director, although he was concerned over the fact because of what had occurred this Winter past, that he did assign the foreman to keep a periodic; check. The dam was raised at: 2:00 a.m. yesterday morning by Price at Hillertown. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary - the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: ~tr. Speaker, there are a host of supplementaries, and we will have to try to go at them one at a time, because I think the 6765

Hay 5, 1976 Tape no. 2454 Page 2 - mw Nr. Roberts. minister's statement will naturally give rise to a number. If l could first of all just ask a quick question. The minister indicated that Price said that they would lift their dam at 2 o'clock TuesJay morning. Is that correct? HR. MORGAN: 2:00 a.m. MR. ROBERTS: 2:00 a.m. Tuesday morning,and twelve hours later, which is 2 o'clock Tuesday afternoon, yesterday afternoon the crest was expected to reach Grand Falls.

This accident occurred a number of miles West of Grand Fall~, i.e. , upstream and yc L - :;: want to be sure that I understood the minister's statement - at 7:30 p.m. last evening his officials were there,or was it 7:30 a.m. yesterday morning? MR. HORGAN: Yesterday evening. MR. ROBERTS: Yesterday evening. That is five and one-half hours after it was predicted that the crest would reach Grand Falls. HR. HORGAN: At 3:00 p.m. the district director was there on the site. MR. ROBERTS: And there was no crest? HR. HORGAN: No. XR.

ROBERTS: So the crest was several hours later than it was expected to be because, of course, this site is West of Grand Falls and thus the crest would get to that first. Well, Hr. Speaker, my first question is: Were there any of the minister's officials present throughout the afternoon and evening at what was obviously considered to be a potential tl1reat or a potential danger? He has said that the foreman who is stationed or who lives at Badger was there at 7 o'clock in the evening and all seemed well,or 7:30 p.m. MR. MORGAN: And five o'clock. ~JR. ROBERTS: Five o'clock and at seven o'clock. ~m.

MORGAN: And at 7:30p.m . li 7 6 {i

:iay 5, 1976 Tape no. 2454 Page 3 - mw ~ffi. ROBERTS: And at 7:30 p.m. he came back. I guess he probably went home and had a bite of supper and came back a~ 7:30p.m . , and at 9 o'clock he came back again and at 9 o'clock things were getting out of hand or the water was rising rapidly, obviously the crest was coming, and a few minutes after 9 o ' clock, as I understand it, this car with these two ladies in it left the road, fell into a very deep-ten or twelve feet of water, I understand, a very deep part of the river , and these two ladies drowned.

Hell the first quest ion : Were there any officials present, flagmen , or were there only warnings that were available? If I had been coming along the road :>r the minist er driving from Badger tJas coming east towards Grand Falls, was the only wal:ning some of t hese barricades or these little flashing yellow lights? !Ia. SPEAKER: The hon. !-11nister of Transportation and Communications. 67 67

May 5, 1Q7f'i Tape 2455 l:ll-1 MR. MORGAN: }lr. Speaker, as 1 earlier inrlicaterl. in mv statement, there "'ere r"arning signs nlacerl at 7:311 l', ' f. vesterdav. There ~~ere harricarles on each sirle of this bad

section of road,or the

section that - '{R. ROliF.RTS: llv each sine the minister means East and Hest? ~. _ MORf:A~ Ri~ht, hoth sections, F.ast and West sections of that

section of Trans-r.anarla. llarricades were nlaced with warning lights, flashin~ r,,arning lights at 7:30 P.M. Nm~ the fact that this raisin? of the dams was occnrrinp everv vear up until this vear, it is ol-vious to liS now that the <'lam that ~~ as lifted dmmstream in Rushy Pond Brook raised by six feet, that that raising of the rtam din cause the flooilin p, of the Trans-Canada - ~~ _B._OJ~_I"~J!-.IS _: __ , You mean the water ,,backed up? MR._}'fORf:AN: __ 'Yes,the "'ater hackec1 no and came hack over the Trans- r.anarla.

And this never occurred before althou~h the liftin~ of the dam, thP raisinv of the rl.ams unstream in previous vear~ had h~en carrierl. out in the same manner as thev were carried out this vear. 1t is obviom; to us now that the rlam downstream wl,ich was raisen six feet higher than normal, raised in 1Q7S1 caused a hackinJ~; of the water to flm~ bact- over the Trans-r.anarla and cause the floorling. MR._ ]!J~.:.ll.1'~ - So this was not the crest that came do•m that causer'! i.t'l MR. SPMKF:R: A supolementarv question? The hon. T.earler of the nnpositi.on. "ffi • ...!£l.R!:._'R!:~ . Mr. Speaker, a sunplementarv.

I am not sure the minister actually an~~ered mv question. He has ~iven us a verv interesting riece of information that it was not the crest coming dmm the river, coming 'F.ast. It was the backlash, if you wish, comin~ hack from this Rushv Pond rlam anparentlv that caused the tragedv. nut the minister, I am not sure he has answered. There were warnings placed,hut 1 sm not sure how valuable warning lights are given the fact that at 7:30 p.m. in the evening and it is

May 5, 1976 Tape 2455 IR-2 MR. RORERTS: ------- hroac:l davlight. A warnin~ light would not be seen that far. MR. MnRGAN: There were barricades too. ---·---- - ~. RO~E~TS : Oh, barricades as well, the construction barricades, the sm~horse \vith vellm• and black strips. Rut \vere there any men there? Here there anv officials? ~Tas there a flag man or any emnlovee, anv official of the department? That was mv question, Six. MR.~~PF.AK.~~-- The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. loffi..l!_ORGA~: __ Mr.

Sneaker, at 7:30P.M. when the foreman visited the area and placed the barricades because the potential was still there, there \vas no real evidence tlJ.at this could occur, this flooding could occur. Rut for safety me~sures the barricades and liphts 1o1ere put up but there was no substantial raising of the level of water up until that time. So the crest came after, from 7:3n P.M. to o:no P.~. MR. RORF.RTS: It was the backlash not the crest. MR. RORF.RTS: Ancl no man tva!! there? -~ - S'PF.~ I recognize the han. member for LaPoile . 1-fR. NF.ARY: A !lunnlementarv question. 1-lr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that tllis matter has heen raised in the House on a numher of occasions in recent weeks and it !s a verv serious situation, would the minister tell the House if he intends to request the Minister of Justice 1 hecause we are not going to get the answers hv 1ust having a little nolitical debate hack and forth, does the minister intend to ask his colleague, the Minister of Justice to hold a magisterial enquiry or a judicial enquiry into this tragedv that took place about five miles Hest of Grano l"alls? ~. SPEAKE~: The hon. ~~nister of Transportation and Communication.

"ffi.. l''ORGAN: Mr. Sneaker, the accident that occurred yesterday \vill be brought to the attention of my colleagues in cabinet on tomorrrn:v morninP,,and we will make a decision with regard to any enquirv. 5?69

May 5, 1976 Tape 2455 I'fl-3 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker - ~. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Onnosition, I - '1R. SPEAKER: I had vreviouslv indicated the hon. member for Windsor- ~uchans (Mr. Fli~ht). If he- ~. FLIGR'l'~ Go on. "''R. ROllER.TS: No, go ahead. I have a suvvlementary. It is the same thing. "''R. SPF.AKF.R: The hon. memher for Hindsor-Buchans. WI, FLIGHT: All right, ~r. ~neaker. I would hope that the Speaker would allot-r me, Sir, a little

preamble to this question hecause as everv memher of this House kne~ors, ··during the time that the Trans- Canada was hlocked and the flooding had talr.f'n nlace that I han rose in this House on clozf'ns of occasions ancl asked questions with regard to the safety, with regard to the attention that was being nairl. Well, all ri~~;ht, Sir.

The question now to the minister is, that never mind thP. time of the peaking,when it came over the road, the fact is that there was a hole hv the shoulder of the road ten feet cleen1 and the minister inclicates at some noint his people in Badger determined that tl.ere was three inches of water on the shoulders of the roacl in tl-oat valley. Knowing that there were ten feet deep pits alon~ the side of that road, was not that enough of a hazard to cause the hringing ahout of the closing of that

section of the Trans-Canada and using the detour that is there? Was that not enough reason for concern in view of the fact that the tvne of warnings t,.,at the nepartment of Highways have gotten over this nast three or four months on the notential dangers there? How come that condition was allowed to exist? Obviously the river peaked and the road overfl~ved after the nenartment of High•-ravs hail given their last final inspection when indeed thev kn~v that this condition existed along the Trans-Canada Highway. And anvone, Mr. Sveaker, tvho would go in there simply needs to drive along and see the condition. li77 0

May 5, 1~76, Tape 245~, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: Before I recognize the hon. minister I will make a brief comment. The hon. the member from Hindsor-Buchans (~lr. Flight) started off by saying that he hoped the Chair would allow him certain

preamble. To a large extent the Chair has an obligation to enforce the rules. I realize the hon. member represents the district and it is an extremely serious and tragic occurrence,and I did not wish to interrupt him in the middle of his presentation. I would point out that it is really not the Speaker as much as the rules that he has to go hy. The hon. the Ninister of Transportation and Communications. MR. 'MORGA.1>l": Mr. Sneaker, ~•i th all due respect to the hon. member, these questions put to me in the hon.

House of Assembly were mainly with regards •. to when the reconstruction or the raising of the Trans-Canada itself would occur and what plans the department had to correct the situation. That was the main gist of his questions put forward earlier. Again,! repeat,that the plans are finalized and funds approved, or hopefully will be approved by the Assembly here in the very near future, within the next couple of weeks for to carry out the raising of the Trans-Canada Ri~hway in that area.

Again getting back to the point that when the men from my department, the foreman visited the area, if they found sufficient evidence to close the road at that time the answer is no. The decision was one of the men in the area that in their judgement at seven-thirty there was no immediate emergency. There was no indication then the water level was going to raise substantially as it did after that. But that was not their planned final inspection for the evening. The district director for the Grand Falls region assigned a foreman who is stationed at Badger to make periodic checks of this

section of road throughout the evening. In fact, I understand,throughout a twenty-four-hour-period. He was there at seven, seven-thirty, five yesterday afternoon. He came back again at nine and nine-fifteen - between nine and nine­ fifteen. So it was not the final inspection at seven-thirty. The foreman came back again at nine or nine-fifteen and he had planned 6771

May 5, 1976, Tape 2456, Page 2 -- apb !1R. MORGAN: to keep on coming back. But there was no indication at seven-thirty, no indication of a real emergency occurring. HR. FLIGHT: vlliat about at nine o'clock? 'ffi. ~ORGAN: Well the road was closed at nine-thirty. MR. FLIGHT: After the drowning. NR. ST'EAKER: A supplementary. The hon. the Leader of the Onposiiton. HR. ROBERTS: ~fr. Speaker, I think the time sequence is imnortant, because as my colleague just pointed out the road was closed only after the accident, if I understood the minister correctly.

And 1 'muld like to come back tc> this question of the warnings, because it i.s obvious the ministe~ - or his officials. I should say - the minister is responsible but he 1·18S not on the spot, of course - were aware of a potential dan~er and they dirl make a number of visits. And if I understood the minister correctly at nine o'clock the foreman came back to the scene and saw the danger increasing rapidly and then the accident occurred - MR. MORGA-.1: The danger was there then. MR. ROBERTS: - the danger was there and then the accident occurred after that.

Now the foreman was oresumablv on the site when these t1~o ladies came driving along in their car and the accident occurred and thereafter. So my next nne~tion, Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the only warninrs given were these barricades - and even at nine o'clock at night it is getting well on into dusk, it ~ay even be near dark officially hy then - did the foreman make - apparently the foreman was on the site when these two ladies came by. Given the fact that, as the minister says, that the foreman had concluded there was a clear and a present danger on the highway, what steps were taken then?

I mean, it is apparently astonishing the officials were there and the ladies came driving -maybe many cars came by, but certainly this car crone hy and then '•ith the accident two people have lost their lives. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of T~ansportation and Communications. 6772

May 5, 1976, Tape 2456, Page 3 -- apb MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, maybe there will be need for an enquiry but I would like to add a few more facts to the questioning. The two ladies who so unfortunately were killed yesterday in the accident there did drive from tUndsor to Badger approximately seven-thirty,over that same

section of road,and at that time there was nothing wrong with the road. Yet they did drive over the road after the warning lights were established. MR. ROBERTS: But they could - MR. !ORGAN: Mr. Speaker, if I could answer the question~ These two ladies who were driving the vehicle, in the vehicle, they drove from Windsor to Badger. They went through the warning lights after they were placed there at seven-thirty. They were going into Badger planning on coming back to Windsor in the evening. It was on their ~•ay back that the unfortunate accident occurred.

So the warning lights were placed there and a number of motorists contacted our men in the area informing them that they passed over the same

section of road at eight-thirty yesterday evening and there was no sign of water on the highway, on the pavement anywhere at eight-thirty. So with all these facts now coming to light,and as more facts will be corning in because we have asked the motorists in the area to supply any information they may have - who went over that

section of road last night - to our department. So there may be a need for further enquiry but these are some of the facts I would like to mention. At eight-thirty yesterday evening there was no sign of water on the Trans-Canada High~vay, but the accident occurred, according to the RCMP reports, around nine-ten. MR. ROBERTS: ~r. Speaker, a further supplementary. 6773

Hay 5, 1976. Tape 2457 PH - 1 MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the Leader of the Opposition for a further supplementary. I note that the hon. member for LaPoile(Hr. :<eary) also ~dshes to ask another question. tffi.. ROBERTS: Thank you, Sir. Obviously there is a need for an enquiry. The memher for LaPoile has asked a very pertinent, important question, There is a need, I think, for some enquiry in this House too. The minister did not answer my question.

Indeed jf anything the more he says the more complicated it becomes because it is ohvicms now that at seven thirty 1•hen these two ladies drove throur,h the area there was no indication that there was anything wrong. HR. HORGAN: The vTarning lights were posted six thirty. HR. !WEERTS: Yes, the warning lights ~/ere there. Ilut they drove through ann there ~Jas no water. Any reasonable person vould say, well ~<hy the warning lights, I just drove through and then'! wns no water. Nil. NORGAJ!: It IJas a safety measure on the part of our department. 1'P. F.01lFRTS: liTell, I agree, a safety measure.

The question I am at is,uere the s:1fety measures adequate and I nm having r,ravc doubts as to .vhether they were. Jlecause the supplementary is this, Sir: At nine o'clock, as I understood the minister's statement originally, Hr. Speaker, at nine o' clod: the foreman came hack to the spot, and when• as at seven thirty or at eight thirty - HR. NORGAN: )jjne - nine thirty. - and that is common ground, seven thirty or eight thirty there was no danger. At nine o'clock the foreman concluderl there was a danger. But that was before the accident. Then a very few minutes after that the accident came.

Hy question is, Sir, what did that foreman do? He was back at nine o'clock. These t"To ladies, who at seven thirty had driven through and everything was okay that they could see apparently - the warning lights were there hut no clear ann present danger. At nine o'clock they came hy, apparently must have passed hy that foreman ann the people there, no sign p,iven to them. At nine ten they slipped off li .., ... , I ( 't

May 5, 1976. NR. RORERTS: Tape 2457 RH- 2 the road into this hole, this ditch. So my question is, Hr. Speaker, what action did that foreman take when he came back at nine o'clock? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Transportation and Communication. HON. J. fORGAN : Hr. Speaker, the decisions of the foreman in the area - I asked this morning upon getting the information through the media of the accident, for a full report from my district director in the Grand Falls region. The information that is passed along to me today is to the effect that the foreman was not there when the accident occurred.

He arrived shortly after the accident. Upon seeing the t~ater condition - this "as one of !tis periodical inspections - the road was closed immediately upon his return and seeing the conditions. But at eight thirty, I will again repeat, there were motorists who reported to us they drove over the

section of highway dispite the warning lights there. In fact some of the motorists were questioning why the warning lights. The road was okay. It Has obvious. You could see it. It was visible - nothing tvrong with the

section of highway. They tvere wondering why we had warning lights up, flashing tvarning lights and barricades and they even questioned some of the officials in my department in the Grand Falls region. So at 8:30 p.m. yesterday there was no indication that there was going to be a flooding of the high v1ay. So the flooding occurred between eight thirty and the time of the accident. Upon the arrival by the foreman,the foreman closed the road immediately.

So without any further answers to any questions this is the information I have now received from my officials in the Grand Falls region as a result of my request for reports from them this morning. These are the facts. I think any further questioning ;tt this time would be probably out of order. l-.Te could leave it - SOHE HON • HIDffiERS : Hear, hear! HR. HORGAN: - and maybe tomorrow I could give the House of Assembly an indication here tomorrow what the government -when I say government, my colleagues and Cabinet, what we will decide to do with regards to this unfortunate accident. }ffi. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, a further supplementary .

t•ay 5, 1976 . RH - 3 'lR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am going to recognize the Leader of the Opposition for an additional supplementary. I 1-dsh to point oot hefore recognizing him that as hon. gentlemen know,hut sometimes it is if not necessary, at least useful to repeat it, that is that the Question Period, even in a series of supplementaries should he confined to giving only such infomation as is necessary to make the question intelligible and that ~~hen there are quite a long series of supplementaries obviously the possibility of getting into debate is greater.

I draw that to the attention of hon. pentleman and ask them to govern t~emselves accordingly. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 1m. ROBERTS: Thank you, l'r. Speaker. I will make this n1y fjnal •' supplementary for this time. But I reject and resent the minister's feeling that further questions are out of order. It may ~~ell he that he does not want further questions. But that does not mal<C' them out of order. ~!y question is very sjmple, Sir.

Does the minister feel on the evidence he now has, and that is all he can ro by, th11t the action taken by his officials was reasonable and prudent,given the circumstances? l1R. SPEAKER: The hon. tlinister of Transportation and Communication. MR. HORGAN: Mr. Speaker, it is impossible to anS\>'er that question. Again I repeat, the information I put forward to the House this afternoon is the information I have received to date. It came in around noon today from the Grand Falls office. I will be pressing for further detailed info~tion regarding this accident.

Any additional information I receive this afternoon or tomorrow morning will he passed on to the House of Assembly. G 7 7l)

May 5, 1976, Tape 2458, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I think there should be a public enquiry into this, Sir. My question is to the government House Leader, Sir. I would like for the government House Leader to tell the House whether or not when Mr. Robert Morgan was asked to assemble the ~acPherson property in connection with the Aquarena for the Summer Games Committee, was he acting as an individual citizen for the MacPherson family or for the Summer Games Committee? Does the minister know what capacity Mr. Morgan was acting in? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the ~finister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: No,I do not. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. §.peaker, a supplementary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Is the minister aware or does he know if Mr. Morgan is in any way associated with or employed with Mr. Andrew Crosbie, who is the chairman of the Summer Games Committee? "ffi.. HELLS: I do not know, Mr. Speaker. I think if Robert Morgan Associates or something - I think he is a consulting engineer or something like that - but whether he is employed by the Crosbie companies I do not know. MR. NEARY: Well a supplementary question, Sir.

Would it change the minister's opinion for an enquiry or an investigation into this whole matter of this land transaction if the minister knew for sure that Mr. Morgan was associated with the various people involved in the Summer Games Committee? Would that change the minister's mind in any way? MR. WELLS: I can only say, Mr. Speaker, that that is a completely hypothetical question. I do not know. MR. NEARY: Well a supplementary then, Hr. S]'eaker. Is the minister aware that a company called the St.

John's Development Corporation in which a number of people who are employed by the Summer Games Committee are shareholders of that corporation, and that that corporation is owned by Mr. Andrew Crosbie and Newfoundland G777

May 5, 1976, Tape 2458, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Engineering, and that Mr. Robert ~forgan l:tolds 175(1 shares in that cornoration? Is the minister aware of that fact? MR. WELLS: 'ffi. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker. Well now that the minister is aware of it, does the minister think that this is just a family affair or is there now need for a further investigation, as I have asked for for several days now in a row? NR. WELLS: No, Nr. Speaker, I think the Summer ~ames Committee has given its explanation publicly and to this House>.

I feel if the hon. member is not satisfied then he should make whatever enquiries ~e wishes to Mr. }lorgan or to the Summer Games Committee or whoever. '·fR. NEARY: Well a furtAer supplementary, Sir. Is the minister going to he ahle to get the options from ~lr. }!or~an or does the minister have any information? Pas he been in touch witl:t '-'organ to ask for the options that he is alleged to have on this property? ~m. WELLS: ~ot directly, Mr. Speaker. My understandin?, is that it t~ould he entirely at Mr. Horgan 1 s own discretion if he wanted to produce these options or not. These options are not registered.

I encmired at the ll.egistry of Deeds and they are not registered. :1R. SPEAKF.R: Does the bon. gentleman have a supplementary? If so I will permit him .ius t one more; then I shall recognize the Leader of the Opposition. ~!R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to ask the hon. minister if he was aware of other people who are involved in this company? Involved are Mr. Andrew Crosbie, Mr. llyron HcDonald, Mr. Rohert Morgan, Mr. Richard Cook and Mr. Grant Chalker who are all employees or members of the Summer Games Committee.

And would that not indicate conspiracy, fraud or collusion to the minister and to the House and warrant an investigation? HR. WELLS: What it would indieate to anybody else, Mr. Speaker - of course I do not know these names that the hon. member G 7 7 .~

May 5, 1976, Tape 2458, Page 3 -- apb HR. WELLS: has mentioned. They are familiar names, some of them as being members of the Committee, but the fact that they are members of the Committee and involved in this company is not to me, at any rate, an indication that there is fraud and conspiracy. There would have to be hard evidence produced. MR. NEARY: Well that is why I am asking for the investigation. I cannot do it. HR. WELLS: If there is evidence that there is fraud or conspiracy, well by all means, let him produce it. HR. NEARY: Well, Hr. Speaker, a supplementary. HR.

SPEAKER: I have indicated that 1Je are getting very close to the end of the period and that I would allow only one further supplementary and I indicated I would recognize· the hon. the Leader of the Opposition next. Since we are getting so close I recognize the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Hell, Mr. Speaker, the gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) can go back to this tomorrow if he wishes to explore it further. But my question is for the minister, th e r.entleman for Kilbride (Mr. Hells) in his recreation and rehabilitation capacity, but a little different aspect of his ministerial responsibilities.

Several weeks ago I asked, before the Easter recess, I asked the minister to let me know, or to let the House know what stadia or stadiums , if we wish, were to be built in Newfoundland this year. I have had representations from a number of communities in my district that are interested, there is also the Daniels Harbour area in the St. Barbe District and so on; could he let us know what stadiums are to be built in Newfoundland this year? MR. SPEMCER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. "MR. lfflLLS: I recall the question of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

I have asked the officials to give me that information. I will jog their memories again this afternoon and hope to have that tomorrow. MR. R.OBERTS : It is not their memories that need jogging. u? 7 ~l

Hay 5, 1976 Tape 2459 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for St. Georges. And I should point out this is the final question. MRS. H. MACISAAC: ~r. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Education. I would like to ask the minister if he can tell me if a new high school will be built in Robinson's this year to replace the very old and outdated structure that now exists? MR. SPEAKER: !-ION. W. HOUSE: The han. Minister of Education. Hr. Speaker, there is no way that I could have that information, because the information is purely the school boardk responsibility.

And, of course, the funding for these schools come from the Denominational Educational Committees. I have been indirectly apprised of the situation, not as a minister, as an individual. And I have been informed that there may be a possibility, but that would not be going from our department. That is the school board~ decision alone. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Today being Private 11embers' Day we proceed to the adjourned debate on !lotion 5. The han. member for Windsor-Buchans. HR. G. FLIGHT: Mr.

Sneaker, ~Then I adjourned the debate last Friday I had indicated that I would support the appointment of a select committee for tl1e purpose of determining the way this Province goes in future developments. And I pointed out although I was a little reluctant to reliPqnish the decision-making with regard to development in this Province,to have this House relinquish it, it is because of what I consider the scattered-brained approach or the shotgun approach that the Province have seen with regards to the development of this Province.

It would seem that there has been no input at all by the general public of Newfoundland up to this point in time as to what would br would not have been best, what way we should have gone or should not have gone. It is an on-again, off-again situation. It is industrial development one minute, it is resource based development the next minute. So, Mr. Speaker, it seems we do not know where we are going, and we are changing directions all S180

~ay 5, l'l7fi Tape 2459 PK - 2 Mr. Flight: of the time, and therefore a select committee might well sit down in Newfoundland with the people and at least advise this House as to what they have found. And if the House were to then listen to the report of a select committee they may indeed develop Newfoundland the way that people want it developed, and not the type of development that is expedient at the time. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Hines and Energy, his speech in this debate was considered by a great many people, indeed one of my colleagues referred to it as the doo~1 and gloom sreech, and at the time it was a dool'J 11nrl floom speech. He listed what he sa\' was the ur-torities for Newfounclland vith regards to development, and his priori tj es, "r. ~ reaker, 1vas the development of the Lower Churchill, the brinp:i .Dg of electricity pm·rer from Labrador into the Island, the offshore ojl exploration or development, fishing, pulp and paper and mining. And, Hr.

Speaker, if that speech lvas given today, six months il.fter, it could not be consid0red il. doom and !!loom speech; it 1;ould 1-tave to be c:0nsidcrec 1 ir J.:f'e!'inf.: '·•it ll the fr1cts as they exist. Today, "r. rreak<'r, the I.m?er Churchill is ~f'vond our al'iJity to rlevf'lor. The oil refinery at rome By Chance is closed dOI·?O and h<~nkrurt. The nffshore oil anr1 /':ilS development,according to the En.err,y l'oard, is tuenty years d01n1 the road.

Some fish stocks have depleted to a point Phere the shutd01vn of that fishery has to be considered. 0ne of the oldest .:utr1 rreatest producing mines in l·'et-rfoundland is ahout to p~Ase out. And as for the pulp 11.nd paper jndustry, the linerboard mill is not the healthiest industry in the I·JOrld. So r·•here is the doom and gloom, Mr. Speaker? As I said ,that speech is exactly in keeping with the situation we have in this Province today. Now the '1Uestion is. l·rhy?

Why have we reached this deplorable sta~e in the ~evelopment of our ProvinceT Because,I suggest, Sir, the decisions made to1vards the development of this Province are politically mot1vated, and have been politically motivated. The development is S781

May 5, 1976 Tape 2459 PK - 3 Hr. Flight: based nn political expediency, what is spectacular at the time. and IJhat appeals to the masses at the time,Hith very little consideration as tv' what the type of development we undertake will mean to NeHfoundland tl·•enty years down the road. Could a Select Committee have done worse? I doubt it. Let us 1 ook at the Churchill Falls, Hr. Speaker. The Upper Churchill 1:.., \' ') u•D .....

L<ay 5 , J.97f. . Tape 2460 R\1 - 1 HR . FLIGR'J' : was developen on Quebec' s terms. HAd it not been developed on Quebec's terms,it vould never have been developed . l su~gest to this 'louse, ~~r. ~pea1:er, that the Lower Churchil l 1.ri \1 never roe develope(! hy this ~rovince unless it is developed on Quebec ' s terms. r.iven the oolitical situation in Ouehec, r.iven this Province Is United financial cara bilities - ~m. S".I\LLWOOD: llould the 'ton . member. allow me? noes he insi st on that •<~ortl '·neve r! · If he spellYs of the next five or ei~ht or ten yea r s, hut never is a Jon~ time . ~m .

FT.IGHT: Neve r, Sir, unless there is p,reat chanP;e i n ntlr technolorv within our - unlcl'!s we come •m wi t h the abili tv to transrn rt larr.e hJocks of hvdro lon~ distances . 1'fP. . S~IALLWOOD: ll!o, no. Does the hon . member not av,ree that it could he developed and consuned within Labrador? l!R. FLIGP.T: t ar.1 cominr . to that, "r . Speaker, Ol' at least I , you l'nOI~ - wl1at r am savinjt, Sir, we are tal~ing about the situation in the Province today .

As it now, in my mind, as i t n~~ looks, q{ven t'te situation Ne h11ve in Quehec , 11,iven this Pl'ovinc e ' s l imited finan c i.nl a hili tv, ~1 ven the Ferle t"al r.overnment's attiturle towat'ds enerp.v rlP.velopment, riven the tecl-tnolopy availa hle r.orl;tv, tl-te t .ower Chu'(chill cannot hP developer! - 1·:-R . SHAJ.UIOOD: Hear, hear! ''R. "'.IGHT: - unless we <levP.J.op it at l}uehec ' s terT'IS . MR . SNi\LTMOOD: Yes, yes . Hear, hear ! ~IR • FLT':H'l' : floes anv hon . centl eman in this House he) iPve ~re can develop t ht> t,owcr Clturc'lill only thP.n on l'uebec ' s t erms? llR .

SHi\LU.JMD: Yes . ~ - PT..!r:ll'!': You do? t<r. . 5!11\LLt.,rOOn: Immediately now, no. }!){ . PLIGHT : No1~, but in the next vear? '!R . ~!IAI.. r.woon : flut, llut - HR . FLIGHT : T'len vou are not "tithin keepinr, - C? 83

May 5, l'l76. Tape 2460 RH - 2 }1R. DOODY: Wait until ~•e ~et a national, a national P.C. government in the next federal election. HR. TI.IGHT: ~~ r. Chairman, MR. stti\J,UTOOD: l.·/hen will that be? 1-lhen will that be? ~m.. FLIGHT: ~lr. Chairman, it was said - HR. D00DY: Peal E!OOn. 'IT'.. ~IALLl,TOOD: 01-t , yeah! ~1 R, fliGHT: J'.r. Chairman, we are talking about the ct~velopment of this Province, ~~r. Chairman. It was said, l'r. Chairman, and the government have not denied,that prior to the takeover of RRINCO, prior to the takeover BRD !r.O was prepared to undertake the development of the Lm•er Churchill.

Again it would have been done on f!uehec's terms hut with one big catch. Here is the catch, the difference. Only the surplus to ~ ewf.oundland's needs would have had to have been solrl to Quebec. If the technolo~ v is available for the Newfoundland Government to brinJ1: the J,ower Churchil J power jnto Newfoundland by transmission lines ann bv tunnel,then cert;1inly it was available for 1'\RlNCO. llut for the takeover the J,m,er Churchill might well have under development energy that we require. today. Newfounrlland mi~ht have the MR. SMALLWOOD: Hear, hear~ Hear, hear! MR.

PLIGHT: r,..Te would have the benefits of .1obs created by the development. ~1R. SMALLWOOD: Hear, hear! MR. PLIGHT: And most important, Mr. Speaker, we would not have extended our credit by almost $200 million at a cost of $20 million a year. 1-1R. SMALLWOOD: llear, hear! More than $20 million. MR. DOODY: Without the monkey! MR. 'FLIGHT: No, Mr. Speaker, we went the spectacular route. l''e would buy out BRINCO. We would own the water rights. We would develop the Lower Churchill for Newfoundland on Newfoundland 's terms. lYe would do what appealed to the masses at the ttme.

No consideration for the J1:reat burdens that the action would perpetrate on the people of Newfoundland ti784

May 5, 1976. Tape 2460 RH- 3 MR. FLIGHT: for years to come! Mr. Speaker, do you think a select committee concerned with the better good of Newfoundland, concerned with the long-term, the long-range developments of this Province would have recommended that takeover? I doubt it, Sir. Remember, Mr. Speaker, that all the details and all the implications with regards to that particular takeover was known to the people in this Province prior to the takeover. Every word that I have heard spoken about the Lower Churchill and about the development, I heard while the discussions were ongoing.

So there are not any new facts that have come to light, you know, that now makes the BRINCO deal look bad. All the facts were there and were mulled over. If there has been a select committee maybe travelling around this Province and pointing out the facts to the people, thev might have said, "Hell maybe that is not the way to go." I doubt if a select committee would have had us go the way that we went with BRINCO, ~~r. Speaker. But now we have to deal with Quebec. We have to get 600 mega~-ratts to justify the transmission lines, Mr. Speaker.

Sir, four or five months ago this House gave the Cabinet, gave the government the right to spend $55 million for the purpose of transmitting the Lower Churchill power to the Island via transmission lines and via the tunnel, a blank cheque, ~fr. Speaker. Now, ~!r. Speaker, can one believe that a select committee 6785

May 5, 1976 Tape no. 2461 Page l - mw Mr. Flight. would recommend, would give government the right to spend $55 million to build a transmission line, and to build a tunnel to transport power without first having determined whether or not we have the power to transport? I doubt it. Mr. Speaker, Quebec set the t~rms for the development of the Upper Churchill. Quebec will set the terms for the development of the Lower Churchill,and now Quebec is going to set the terms for the buying of the 600 megawatts of electricity we need. Well the terms that I have heard to date, Mr. Speaker, are not acceptable.

In his speech in this debate, the Minister of Mines and Energy indicated that one of the great hopes for Newfoundland was having power from l.abrador flow into the Island. If that is so, Mr. Speaker, then in my opinion the Qubec·attitude today is one that would stifle the development of this Province. And, Mr. Speaker, I will refrain from saying in this House what I think the people of Newfoundland would say to a select committee, would tell them how they should deal with Quebec. I will refrain from that, Sir. I have no desire to be branded a nationalistic rebel or a radical.

But, Sir, less significant issues, with less adverse implications on one country and one province,have caused men to become nationalistic, have caused them to become radicals and have caused them to become rebels. I am looking foward, Mr. Speaker, and the people of Newfoundland are looking forward to seeing the strings in the bow of the Minister of Mines and Energy. So much for the Churchill, and so much, Mr. Speaker, for Quebec. Mr.

Speaker, if ever there was proof that a select committee could convey to the House of Assembly how they feel this Province should be developed, I am going to refer to the Lloyds River diversion, the first time that I have actually referred to it since I have come in this honourable House other than answering a question. G78G

May 5, 1976 Tape no. 2461 Page 2 - mw Mr. Flight. The Minister of Energy in presenting his estimates said - he looked directly at me at one point, and he said - "Now I do not want to see the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) frothing at the mouth over the mention of Lloyds River." A very unparliamentary statement to say the least, Sir •. But I can assure the minister that it was not the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) who was frothing at the mouth while the controversy of Lloyds River was going on . It was not the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr.

Flight) Who was red-faced when the decision was finally made at the outcome of the controversy. No, Sir, it was the minister's predecessor, the former Minister of Mines and Energy, and members of the front benches, his cabinet, and of top people in Hydro whose faces were red. But, Mr. Speaker, the Lloyds River diversion and the way that this Province was going to develop it speaks very clearly and very abundantly as to why maybe we should have a select committee to go out in to this Island and find out how the people feel about the way they want their Province developed.

The destruction that would have been brought about by the diversion of Lloyds River, Mr. Speaker, would boggle your imagination, and the fact is that Lloyds River was on the drawing boards,and had it not been for the opposition it received today it would have been a fact. Besides flooding King George's Lake, drying up Lloyds River, taking a chance on polluting Red Indian Lake and rendering it useless for tourist potential development, besides risking the complete pollution of Red Indian Lake, it would have wiped out what tourist potential we had left up in that part of the country.

Ignoring all this, the Newfoundland Cabinet, this cabinet,had given Newfoundland Hydro the go ahead on the development of the Lloyds River. And furthermore, Mr. Speaker, the cabinet and officials of the Newfoundland Hydro att~pted to mislead the general public of this Province in What destruction there would be. The fact is, Sir, that neither the cabinet, the ex-minister,or the officials of Hydro were aware and had any way of being aware as to the amount of 678?

Hay 5, 1976 Tjllpe ·ru>. 24fJl Mr. Flight. environmental damage that would have been done by the diversion of Ll:oyds River, but they spent a goG>d many hours trying to convince the people of Central Newfoundland basically that it would have no af.fect on the environment . And, Mr. Speaker, that leaves me to an.other point that I want to make here. I sat through the debate here, Sir, (j 7 8 'i ...

}(ay 5, 1976 Tape 2462 IB-1 ~!R. FLIGHT: when the hon. member for L11Poile (Hr. Neary) had made an issue of ~'r. r,room 1 s salary, the chairman of Newfoundland Hydro. Now I have got no desire at a] 1, ~ lr. Speaker, to knmf '!<!hat ~<r. Denis Groom earns. I can only presume that he is being paid what it would cost Newfoundland to have a man of his qualifications doing the job that he is doing. I would suggest that I believe that the salary would be in keeping ~•i th that and therefore we need good men and if the price we are paying }.<r.

Groom is indicated by the market for a man of those qualifications then fine ,let us pay hi.m what we are paying him. Hmvever, ~<r. Speaker, the minister has suggested that Denis Groom was not in the politcal arena so therefore nenis r.room's name should not be bandied around this ~ouse. Well I want to suggest to you, t1r. Speaker, that when the controversy on Lloyds River was going on,nenis Groom projected himself very much in the political arena. nenis Groom stood up in this city, t'r.

Speaker, in front of either Rotary or Kinsmen - and I do not know which - and he deliberated attempted to ridicule the people who were opposed to the diversion of Lloyds J!.iver. In doing that, rrr. Speaker, he was ridiculing the people who pay him his wages. I would want to suggest to ¥r. Croom• or anybody in the same category in Newfoundland as l'r.

Groom, that if they are not interested in becoming politically involved, if they do not want their salaries questioned or their roles in Newfoundland's way of life questioned then, Sir, they should leave the type of statements that they were making to the politicians or else they are going to go on the firing li.ne. Mr.

Speaker, in trying to justify the diversion of Lloyds lliver the people who supported the diversion of Lloyds "River went around this Province stating that it would cost $28 million more to produce the same amount of horsepower in the diversion of Lloyds River as it would cost to produce the same amount of energy by fossil fuel. This was the justification. Therefore the people of Newfoundland were supposed to have said, well let us save the $28 million. MR.. }IDF.PHY : At that rate it would have cost $28 million more - ti789

May 5, 1976 Tape 2462 I?-2 ~~. ~.IGHT: ~ore. }'R. l"T.'RPHY: To try to divert the I.loyds River than by fossil fuel. ~'R. FLIGHT: No. The energy that is produced by fossil fuel over f:lve years ~·ouJ.cl cost $28 mil lion more than the saJ:Tie al!'ount of energy prorluced by Lloyrls rr:l.ver. But, S:lr, :It was a significant fact.

Of course J reali?.e what T am doing here, I am inviting statisti c:ians or !lomebor'!y to question my figures hut it ~1as ascertained during that controversy that Price (NfJ d) 's consumption of electr:! caJ energy would increase by the same amount in the next five ye~rs as the amount of electr:l.city that ••e would develop at T.J oyds Piver. In other worcls, 'Price (Nflc1J was going to use every volt of e-lectricity th~t 1wulc' have been generated by the diversion of Lloyc!s River. The obvious questi.on to me, "'r.

Spe11ker, is, if Price (llf] rl) '·Yall r,oinr to use it Hhy were the people of Ne1~foundland toln thf'v were going to have to pay for it? l~hy l•!as not Price (Nfl rl) roing to pay for it if thev "'ere p:oing to use it? ''r. ~peaker, iF the Lloycls l'liver controversy accomplished nothinr else, certain] y it l'lliSt h~ve serverl notice on the Government of Newfoundland that the people of this Province will not tolerate any longer the type of destruction to our environment that we l1ave penni tted up to this point in time. ''r. Speaker, our. environment is being clestroyed at an 1mhel ievabJ e rate.

I wou]cl vish at this point, ~r. ~peaker, to congratulate the l'in:lster of Tourism on his ne1.r hunting regul~tions. Certainly they are a great improvement over ••hat 1-1e har. <md cErtainly there m"v be loophole!l but for a mlln ~Jho ~ives tre impression that he intends to i!"'prove the re~tulations, then certainly he h:'!s macle <1 ~rent try and np to this ]'oint I can only but conp:re~tulate him. HoNever, l'r.

Speaker, the minister mane this statement a few days ap:o in the Rouse that but for. the approach of this p:overnment, of this cabinet ,of this government, to the development of tour:! srn in Newfoundland that twenty-five years from nov tourisw •muld be rlead.

May 5, 197 6 Tape 2462 IB-3 ~. FLIGHT: Well, Sir, I suggest, and I want to make it very clear I do not suggest this by design, I do not suggest that our tourism is being developed by design to do what I am going to say - but I would say this, Sir, that instead of having died in tl~enty-five years but for the approach of this government, that it will take twenty-five years for our tourist industry to commit suicide under the policies under which our tourism is now being developed and managed.

Thirty-eight thousand to forty thousand moose was the answer in the minister's statement when 1 asked a question in the House some tillle ago. Mr. Speaker, there are not 38,000 or 40,000 moose in Newfoundland. There are just not in Newfoundland 38,000 or 40,000 mooRe, This may be another reason why a select commjttee should go out into the Province and find out what is going on. It has to be recognized, }'r, Speaker, that I come from the Central Newfoundland area, TYindsor-Buchans, Grand Falls-Bishop Falls. Now, Sir, the Buchans plateau, the Great T!.ed Indian J,ake Valley, the LJoyds River area S79f

May 5, 1976 Tape 24fi3 PK - 1 ~!r. ___!light: has he en knmvn over the years as being the best stocked, with the hi)?hest dE'nsity of !'loose in Newfoundland. And, Sir, ten years ago in th!l.t country you could have seen fifteen moose in onE' day, and T'O '·- you rdJ J. no t see one moose in fifte~n rl<~ys. ~low ~ ~here is t!'>e 3S,nnn to q(),nnn !'loose'? And I have heard for this past five or s ix years tha t is t he fip;ure thrmvn out by th~> nepartment nf 'Tourism, '3R,nnn to 4n,rnn moose, and they just do not exist, 'lr, SpeakE'r. It is very questionable, ~fr.

Speaker, if this r;overrunent should not consider closinr; the moose season completely, altogether for a year or tHO, and let our moose stocks comE' hack. flecause you no not n eed to he a h iolop,ist, Sir, to 1' nm7 that there •·1 ill come a tj"'e Hhen our moose population jl;ets low enough, its ability to regenerate itself, you dn not have to shoot every moose jn ~·l e <-~ founrll a nd jn other to have no moose.

Once the woose population r;ets lm,r enouph they vill not have thE' ability to come hack, ;md 1ve are And I would challenr,e 1vhat }io1or;ist s who 1mrk ,,•ith the Departnent of Tourisl"l to prove to this House that are 18,000 moose in NeHfoundland,to prove to this J!ouse that the moose population in Nel·r foundlanrl is facing the dc>np:er of extinction. And I will tell you why, Hr. Speaker. 1 noticerl, ~fr. Speaker, that in this ne,,• game laws the ll'inister marle no reference to non-resident hunting. .'kne at all.

So T presume we are going to have a non-n~sident hnntinr; in the same Sf'nsf' that ~ve have had it. Mr. Speaker, as I sa1d .ten years ap;o, fifteen years <tf';O on a day's v7alk from around Buchans a person could h11ve seen f~_fteen moose, today he could not see one moose in fifteen rl<'y3. I knmv what I am talking about. And, Mr. Speaker, hut I <Till tell you what I can do now; I can take my ski-doo on any given dav, and I CRn hit fifteen fly-in camps within one day's travel of Buchans. Now T TWuld sugp.;es t to the minister - MR. SMALLHOOD: ~. FLIGHT: MR. SMALUTO(')D: Fifteen what?

Fifteen fly-in camps where you have to - Fly-in?

Hay 5, 1976 Tape 2463 PK - 2 Mr. Flight: Fly-in. Now I ~~ould suggest to the minister that he would take the government airplane or the government helicopter or anything, do it at the expense of the Province, and pay a visit to those camps and reacl Phat is written on the walls ('f tl:Jose caJllps. And it ~.rill be no trouble to understand what is happening to our moose population, Mr. Speaker. Those camps are situated in the very prime source - it is the source for years and years, ~1r. Speaker.

In Buchans ~<hen you went hunting you left the town and within three or four miles •·mH·. of the tmm you saw a rr.oose,or ten moose. I have seen as high as seventeen moose myself in just one look, and this was the overflmJ that •vas cominf.' out from the great ponds anc lakes that \.'ere isolated from tllan, you see, and we t<lere only. shooting: the overflmv. But then came the fly-in carers, and the noose noH, Sir, are being shot at their source! I have 11alked into fly-in camps, Mr. Speal-er., and the signs, "r. So-and-So from "!ichigan, 11r.

So-and - So from California, the great stars, the great bulls, the number of points, the number of moose seen. And, lfr. Speaker, H ~ve continue that route there will be precious little moose left in Newfoundland. The only people tvho will see a moose in this Province in a few years <Jill be the people who can afford to fly in and look at them. Mr. Speaker, the people of this Province have got a great sincere desire to have a moose population in Newfoundland twenty years from now.

And I am suggestinr. very seriously that the government - and this may be very, •1ery unpopular pol:l.tically - would look at closing the moose season completely in this Province. Because if they do not, and if they continue to go on, and espouse the fact that there are thirty or forty thousand .tlloose in this Province then they are doing an injustice to the people of this Province, and they are taking a chance of wiping out our moose population. And now, Hr.

Speaker, with regards to the fly-in, and with regards to the non-resident >hunting, I suppose that I have to accept the fact that we have outfitters, and I could not arbitrarily recommend all the outfitters in Newfoundland be closed down, but I would suggest, Sir, that as a camp closes, as an outfitter that we have today goes out of business that certainly no other licence should be issued. G?93

' 'ay 5, 1°76 Tup'! No. 24M w·- 1 '""' "'L IGH'T' : Because if we are lookin~ at ,,That the moose population o" Ne•··foundlancl """lP'l.<JS to the economy of this Province, I can assure t 111s >louse that having .:t moose stand on the stand of the road in the summer <1'1 the 'T'ram;-C:'.nada will attract more tour:i st r.ollars to N e~ rf0undland than having sor.:e guy coming in from Idaho and shooting a monse an.<'! rotng back. And if the minister does not believe me 1u~ should ~o to Port-aux--Basques and watch thel'l, 1<1atch the moose hunters ·,.-.hen they come off the boat. They come in cDravans.

T1 ~ ey have their own booze. They have their mm gas. They have everythir1g. They do not stop. They leave the boat at Port-aux-!lasques end tr.ey do not stop again until they arrive at their hunting lodge. ''P.. ''U~PllY: Ts t!-le outfitti.ng industry as active as it was around ra~~er? ~T. FLICHT: Ne>thing 15.ke it was, Sir. Nothing like it 1vas. Jlnd, ''r.

Speal<er, ar;ain in keeping with that line I vrould suggest that, I do not knov 1 maybe the minister should stand up and tell us ~<rha t non-re~dde. nt hunti.ng means to the economy of this Province : and then he should compare it uith the loss to the potential tourist attraction of this Province if •ve clo not have moose to attract and wild life to attract the people in. "r. Speal• .er, ynu could wrlte a book, you could ro on for a week on the <~ay the tourist potential of this Province is bein!'; destroyed. Tl'1e pAper comp;mies, ~~r.

Speaker; three or four years ago the government of Ne1>1foundland-and I wish the 1':1.nister of JUp.:h1~ays was in his place because T doubt very much if he is a1~are of this fact that there are five miles of public, government-m-med, pai cJ for road along the Lloyus River Valley. It was built as a extension to Price Newfoundland's road, the road going to Ray d'Espoir. ~~d, "r. Speaker, it "'as referred to >ihen it 1.ras being built as a scenic route •. I guarantee you it is not scenic today!

The minister or one of his representatives should go i~ and see what Price Newfoundland have done to that five miles of road. You have to push the trees that they cut off the side of the road. Thev have stripped G 7 9 -'~

May 5, 1976 Tape No. 2464 NJI' - ? l~. FLIGHT: it. There is nothing left, just absolutely nothing or. ~.rhat ~· muld have been the five miles of the most beautiful road, in this country. And then the minister says that our approach to tourism and our approach to the protection of the environment >!ill guarantee the success of the tourist potential of this Province! ~ .• ~RPHY : Where does that road cut off? tlR. FLIGHT: It leaves the Trans-Canada Highway, ~'r. Speaker, at lladger. But, however, that strip of road \~ as built.

You go in and you take a look at what the paper companies are doing to the banks of our rivers. Go in and see what they have done to l.loyds l'iver, to the natural banks of the river. Go in and see what they have done to Shanadithi River. They have wiped out any chance that this Province will ever have to develop those areas from a tourist potential point of view. He cannot rebuilt those rivers. 1 can take the minister in and show him miles along the bank of the river where the tractors just carne in and pushed it.

I can take him in and show him all sorts of ramps built out into the river and everything pushed away so that they could dump the wood into the river. tio up and take a look at Red Indian Lake today, ~ l r. Speaker - thousands of cords of wood floating around that lake. You take your life in your own hands to go on to the lake in a boat! The Exploits River, every river in Central Newfoundland is polluted with wood left in the water and,you know, r'r. Speaker, again you could go on and on.

The Minister of Forestry stood up here the other day, Sir, and he made a statement, something to this effect, woe to the man that leaves a stump in the '"oods under our ne~~ management regulations. How far out of touch can you be1 How far, Sir, out of touch can you be to what is going on in this Province with regard to that type of development? Is the minister aware that there are thousands and thousands - '"hile I am speaking right now, while I am speaking there are thousands of cords of wood drifting around Red Indi?n Lake. It 6795

}f.ay 5, 1976 Tape No. 2464 NM- 3 ~ffi. FLIGHT: is up in the woods. It is covered with sand. It is sinking to the bottom. And more wood is being cut to replace it. Is the minister aware that in the operations the way the paper companies are cutting that thousands and thousands of cords of ,.mod that may be not usable at a mill , maybe cannot be floated down river is being left to rot7 Is he aware that there are brows of woods, brows six feet high the length of ·this building and twice as long left, piled, stacked and left to rot in the woods? ~ffi. ROUSSEAU: Does the member repeat the statement I made yesterday?

MR. FLIGHT: Yes. The minister said something that verbatim, .. Sir. He said something like, Hoe be tide, or Hoe tl'l the man to the man who goes into the woods under our new regulations and leaves - 'MR. ROUSSE.A.ll: Under our new management policy. MR. FLIGHT: Under your ne~v management policy. MR.. ROUSSEAU: Does the member know how many of those now operate under the management policy. MR. FLIGHT: Yes, Sir, from what I see in Newfoundland there is none. No, Sir, but they have been talked about this last years. MR. ROUSSEAU: Which one is that? MR. FLIGHT: The first one is in Lewisporte.

Well, Sir, I will be watching very closely and the people of Newfoundland will be ~ratchi'1g very closely as to what effect the minister's management yolicies have on the type of waste that we have seen going on in Central Ne~,foundland, the type of destruction G796

May 5, 1976 Tape no. 2465 Page 1 - mw Mr. Flight. that is going on in Central Newfoundland. Tourist potentiall We just saw an incident here today what comes as a result of a company like Price (Nfld) or any other corporation. I thank God for Price (Nfld). Do not everyone get the impression that I am against development in this Province, or I am against Price (Nfld). But I am saying this that Price (Nfld) could operate in this Province, and they could leave our environment as they found it, and it would not cost them one red nickel in profits. Red Indian Lake has never been sacked, never 1 ever been sacked.

The wood is just dumped in, and it is left to the mercies of the tides and the winds to get to Exploit's Dam where it is driven down on the main river . What type of an approach is it to forestry management and protection of the environment with an eye to tau~ist potential development,when a company can control the biggest river in Newfoundland by a series of dams without even letting the GOvernment of Newfoundland know what they are doing? We saw a result of that today, and we will hear more about that. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Would the hon. gentleman allow me to ask him whether he knows - I do not know - but does he know whether the legislation passed in 1905,giving concessions and rights to the original A.N.D. Company give them those rights to do the very thing he is now referring to? MR. FLIGHT·: Now, Mr. Speaker, I cannot answer that question. I can say this, Sir: I do not care personally what the legislation of 1905 said,if it is a fact, and what I am telling you is a fact, that no legislation should permit that. If that is a fact,that legislation should be changed. I do not know if it did. I suspect it did. MR.

SMALLWOOD: If there is such legislation? MR. FLIGHT: To this point,if there is such legislation - Mr. Speaker, the fact is to this point in time - and I mean to this point in time - 6797

May 5, 1976 Tape no. 2465 Page 2 - mw 11r. Flight. the paper companies in Newfoundland have become powers unto themselves. It is unbelievable! You have to be there to see what they are doing. They are controlling the woods roads, the access roads. They decide when to open the roads to the general public. AN HON. MEMBER: Their roads. MR. FLIGHT: Their roads? Not always their roads! All right, Mr.

Speaker, how about a situation like this where you have about a forty mile road, thirty miles of which was built on the r.oads to Resources scheme, one-third, one-third, one-third-the federal government one-third, provincial one-third and Price (Nfld.) one-third- and at some point that programme ran out , So then Price was forced to build the rest of the road on its own and then they said; ' Oh this is our road now~'so they put a gate across. MR. SMALLWOOD: A gate across where? MR. FLIGHT: At the end of the roads to resources, the part that was, built.

But then the government in their wisdom went in to the end of the road, the fifteen miles of the road that Price controls~ and they built out of the public chest, they built five miles of road, extended on the Price Newfoundland road, And if Price so decides !low not an individual gets in on that road because he has to pass over ten, fifteen miles of road that is owned privately by Price. MR. St-iALLWOOD: built? HR. FLIGHT: On whose land are the three sections of the road Well 9it would be on Crown land or it would be on land on which Price Newfoundland has timber rights. It could well be on Reid's land.

Some of it is on Reid's land, because it runs along right on th~ beach of the lake. So, Mr. Speaker, when we stand up, we talk about a select committee. There is no. evidence at all that if legislation

May 5, 1976 Tape no. 2465 Page 3 - mw Mr. Flight . comes in to this - we seem to be isolated f r om the feeling of the people in the Province. There is no evidence tha t the peopl e out there hav e any input in to decisions that are made in this Rouse. They question why is that there is no control over the type of thing I have just pointed out .. They question why is it that there is new forest management regulations, but we do not see any evidence of it . And, Mr. Speaker, this is not the first time . You know, 1 am not the first person who has pointed this out.

I have attended meetings in my home town wher e some of the major politicians of the day have been there , some of the top cabinet ministers, and this has been pointed out , and they have acknowledged it, but they obviously did nothing about it . So a select committee - if this Bouse is not prepared to recognize the desires of the people of Newfoundland, then maybe the only way to go is with a select committee, with an understanding that we will abide by some of the recommendations of a select committee. I intended, Hr. Speaker, just fo'r the Minister of Forestry's information 6 '199 \

~'ay 5, 1976 Ti!pe 2466 IB-1 MR. F1,IGPT: T vrent off on 11 tanr:ent there - 'llo holding back. ''ll. FT.TGHT: No, ri~ht. J want to inform the Rouse that 1 am saving my observations ~Tith regards to the forest rnanar.er,~ent ref?ulat1nns and ~·•hat is happen:lnp; in our forests in this Province until the minister's estimates come tn the floor. Jf they do not come to the floor, ''r. Speaker, I vilJ ret them in the budget debate. But if I have anythinp. of any importance - ~'!'.

Rflt:S SRAU: I can f,ive the hon. member a little bit of informat:lon Sir, ans~Jer the questions and f?:l.ve the information for you, if I may for nne second? ~·R. FL TCHT: Yes. )'n P('PSSEATT: Ve do not have rir.ht no't\• forest management policy reg11Jat:l.ons until we get eaC'.h 1.nc:'ividu;~l unit done. Ol'ay? The first unit has now 11rrived, the J"e,v:l spnrte unit. "'hey are ~one np hy J ookinf' at the ~•ood ·~e have and trying to ascertain the annncrl sustainable yield. Hhen thilt comes in the officials tal:e a 1oolr at it, then it comes to my cleRk for approval. The f:lrst one :Is the one for Lewisporte.

It has not even offic:lal]y reachecl my desk yet. ""h<lt. :Is the first management policy. 17e will have n:lne~hopefuJly,done sometime dur:lng th:l.s ye11r. That is the first one. '-le have none yet - I am sorry, ,..,e have one, the Let.•isporte and another one that way he in since that. Then '"e J oak at them, then they are approve<'l and then tlley become management nnits <mel rer,nlations go under them. T:ight now we have none that have been approved by the minister and that is what the regulatjons state. ~rp. FLIGHT: }'r •.

Speaker, I accept the han. minister's explanation ;md I want to make 1.t very clear that I have no desire to question the minister's motives. I think hjs concern is as great as mine. But I wjJl say tMs, Sir, that the memher for Eagle Piver (~"r. Strachan) at one point in hjs great presentation on the offshore gas and oil indicated to the House l,earler -and he djd not do it in a derogatory -.1ay - he said. "Sir, I feel that you a-re ignorant to the faets. I li :II 0

}'ay 5, 1976 'rape 2466 IB-2 111'. FLIGHT: feel that you have not been getting the information that you should have. "And I would suggest to the minister that that is quite possible in the forest management. I would suspect, Sir, that most of the forest management that we will see will be the control of the sawmHls, control of the small operators, rej!:ulations that will regulate their cutting and the way they cut and where they cut. But I will be t~aiting, Vr. Speaker, and the people of the Provjnce wil be waHing to see ,.,hat control is 1'] aced on the great paper companies with this new management.

I assure von, Pr. Speaker, that if the type of control that the people of Ne,.,foundland envision should be em those paper companies is not there,then there will be very little sympathy for the type of forest management that would only control the individual who goes into the woods and the forests of the Province. ~~r. Speaker, while t!"lousands of cords of wood has been allowed to float around Ped Indian Lake and drift and sink to the bottom~a Newfoundlander cannot in the same country go in and cut enough lumber to build a house.

Does that make sense? noes it make sense that a man in Newfoundland today cannot on any timber concession held by the paper companie!? not be permitted to cut a log. But still the same company can allow hunrlreds ancl thousands of cords of wood over the years to sink to the botto~ to rot. The big~est need we have in this Province today from a social need is the neecl to provide housinr.. Now where is the justice, ''r. Speaker? }laybe someone in this hon.

F!ouse - and I t~Hl yield the floor to anybody ... ~o can clarify this for me - I understood up until this point in my life, but I have become very well aware that it is not so nm~ - but I understood as I grew up that every Newfoundlander in Newfoundland, everyone, had the right to cut a house, could go into the woods and cut 10,000 feet of lumber to build a House. But that is obviously not so. I do not know if it was a written - b8Ul

'ay 5, 1976 Tape 2466 HR. RO!!SSEAU: clo not kno"'· "P . FL!C1TIT: l·elJ, . ir, the fact is rjght now rhat a Ne"!founcllande r - ~ . ~OPSSEAU: 0n r.rown lancls you coul d cut for your o•m neecls - fl.· ~ 'ALLHOOTl: The basis of that is the t h ree mile ltmi t, three miles reserved from the salt water inlanc for the people to go and cut al ost at will . ~. FT.IGHT: Rig ht . .J"R. ~''Al.LHOOD: That r.oes back at least 100 vean;. YP . SPEAKEr>: flrclet, please ! l'erhaps the hon. l'lEHnher udl Allm .. • we to rem \ n,l him th11t hE' as approximAtel y t\oro to three min tes left. R. FLIGHT: Yes . Thank you, 'r.

Spe(lke r. That :!s All T nee <'. J will :htst sRy, 'r . Speaker, 1 her:ie ve that a rerscm could 1'\ake - :my rnem"er couJ d spE'nc a t~eek ta l kin r ahout reasons l·'hy a select co'".111il' e~ POuJcl e i n the better interests of this Province.

Ar,ai.n 1 have no <'es:!re to relinl]uish e aut horH • of ~h;s House to wake decisions in this Province hut at the sa~e time r see no evic1ence that this Uouse nnd the de cis ion mal<ers, ro iC"y st'ltters in this Province are pay1ng any attention to whnt the people utsid e of this Ilouse arE' sayin~, f. r . l'nless e find a ~·ay to recorn iz:e the Province as the exi!n);mcl stop being isolated from the ("C'opJ.e in this Provinc e whom we have been elected to ~overn then what cho:l ce rlo we have , ' t:. Speaker? Before I sit clown thete is one o.ther point t would waJ.-.e too, Sir .

It ;l.s obv:lou ~< no1,• ~e have run OI·Jtl to within twenty-odcl hours left for the estimates, e~<s thA.n n• enty~ocld hours, fifteen .

Hay 5, 1976. HR. !"LIGHT: Tape 2467 RH - 1 Hr. Speaker, the district I come from, the three departments that they are most concerned with - all the departments are important - but here are the three: Forestry and Agriculture, Municipal Affairs, and Tourism. It is very doubtful, ~1r. Speaker, if those three departments' estimates are p,oing to come to the floor of this House. Now 1.;rhat do you think - HR. F. WHITE: Either one, either one. MR. FLIGHT: Either one. Nm,r what do you thjnk that the people in mv distric:t would say to a select committee if they sat down and sain, ''Look, what do you think?

Do you think that ~·e should be allowen seventy-five hours to debate the estimates?" What do you think they would say, Sir? Seventy-five hours on debating the estimates with the government having at its ctisposal,and the hon. House T.eader - am I having a hard time making myself clear to you because you are, you know - MR. DOODY: "'-ffi. FLIGHT: No. I find it incredible. You find it incredible. Yes, Sir 1 and I find it incredible that you would surport such a Jespicar] e thing as perpetrat1ne; on this House seventy-five hours of debate of which your ~overnment, of which your ministers will use half it.

It is despicable, !~r. Speaker. I >Till not get a "chance to debate the departments that concern my district. I can tell this hon. House that if a select committee sat in Newfoundland right now they 1·70uld be told in no uncertain terms that this is not acceptable. It is a shameful thing. If the government is going to have the seventy-five hours then certainly the time the government uses up should be deducted from the seventy-five hours. Mr. Speaker, I support the motion that a select committee be appointed to look into the future direction this Province takes. SOME RON. !·!EMBERS: Hear, hear! ~1R.

SPEAKER: The han. member for Mount Pearl. MR. N. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I have listened with great interest to the debate that has gone on here. on the motion made bv the hon. T.eader of li803

Tape 2467 'Rl-1- .,_ HR. N. WINDSOR: the O-pposition. l-1any va] ici !'Oint.~> have he en made from IJoth s1 des of the House I fee 1 . Hm1ever, I cio not thin!-: thllt a se] ect committee to sturiy t'-le prosr>ects for econmric gro-v1th and development is necessary. Indeed I feel that the appointment of such a committee con.ln in fact impecle the progress of .-levelonment in this T'rovince. l~e }Jave sef'n manv examples, lfr. Spf'aker, wherehv coml'l:l ttees were estah] is heel ancl sturlies were commissioned on a particular pro"lem.

In many cases the study was necessary and t:he report of the committee has he en a verv val uah 1 e <locument and contrihuten greatb• to the orclerlv and -proper solution to !" 1 11~ problem. However. many times this is not true anc:1 l't:OfHess has hee>n imperled or at least decision~> deferred pending the renort 0f the committee. • ' I would say, Hr. Speaker, that a sturh• such as that proposerl hy the ''on.

Learler 0f thP Onposition l•mulrl l,e a TT:onull'ental t>Jsl : ,,rhic), llOI!ld take years to comp]ete~and perhaps vears of discussion hefore any iml'lementation of anv recommennat inns ;wising from that studv cmul (1 come ahout. Fe hav" A good exam11le of this, "r. Speaker, tn thiR areR Rt the moment current]v unrler consi.rleration. Th>1t is the St • .Tolm 's Urhan Pegion Study ''hich cnverR the area generaJlv referrP.d to as the Northeast Avalon which is rlefinecl hy an imaginarv l i.ne runnin?; from l~)yrood to Vitless Rav >1nd all that area lving to the Northeast.

This area, Sir, i.s the Ruh;ect of one of the most exhauRtive studies ever undertaken in this region,or in this Province in fact.

I '~ould Jike to dea] •Nith tl1is for a few moments, S:ir, and suhse<1uent Rtnc-1ies which have arisen from the recoMmendations of that sturly because economic rro~'th anrl devel Ot'ment ccwer a. mucl:t hro~trle.>r ranre of Ruh;ects on the establishment of industry and creation of ewpl0yment opTJortunities. ln fact to attract industrv to an area it is necessarv to provirle development of residential and commercia] areas, recreational f.acilitle~>, municipal services, social services, schools, churches, hospita]s, an efficient transportation svstem, et cetera. The St.

John's Jlrkm r.>epi.on Srurly '-·'as presented in ]ate 1q7~ or ear]v 1973 anrl ,,ras cover<"cl ~n t11rPe maier headinrs the () 8 04

l"ay 5, 1976 Tape No. 2468 N}f - 1 MR. N. WINDSOR: regional plan, the munici~al services plan and a local government report. The Department of l'lunicipal Affairs and Housing made a concerted effort to familiarize both the general public and concerned agencies and groups. And to receive public input a commission ,,•as established under the chainnanship of "r.

Alec Henley,and a series of public hearings held,and to aid persons and groups in preparing their presentations on this report a series of newspaper articles outlining briefly in plain.sim~le language the findings of this study and the recommendations thereby 'vas published and I think that everybody in this Province have had, or at least in this area who would be interested, have had ample opportunity to study the recommendations in the report and the rna terial it contains. Tite Henley Commission, Sir, has completed reports on the regional plan and the municipal services plan.

I understand also that the presentation of the commission's final report, its report on local government which covers financing and related matters, the report, Sir, is pending 1I FOuld think. Well, ~fr. Speaker, nearly four years have passed since this report was tahled, first presented and the data on which this report was compiled '~as collected back in 1971-72. The study was designed to cover a t,.•enty year period, Now better than twenty per cent of that time period has elapsed and this report is not yet adopted in its entirety and no appropr:!.ate legislation or regulations have been passed.

It is true, Sir, however, that the study has had a definite effect on planning and decisions made in this area in that many 6f the recommendations have been accepted on a tentative basis. Those which are least controversial have been utilized and decisions have been based on them. I wish to point out, Sir, but I would like to congratulate the government,and the Minister of l"unicipal Affairs in particular, for recognizing the problems as outlined in the study, for making decisions based on the facts pregented by the report which could not 6805

"May 5, 1 '17(; Tape '~o. '>1,68 1\"~ - 2 ~'l). N. lHNDSOR: ~1a.H for the final adoption of the report. An example of this, Sir, is the establishment of the St. John's TJrban Reg:! on 'Jater anrl Sewer lloard.

The clecision to form thi~ board was hased first of all on the Rssumpt i.on that the rep:ional pLm woulri be adopter!- and I l,,ill get into more speci.Fics on the ,..enson uhy that assumption vould h>~ve to hP made later on-and in accordance vith t 11e recoJTUr.endations of the report tr.'lt the municipal servicE's plan Fould be adopted, and also that the local rovernment ol'ln noulcl 1:--e <Jccepted or .<Jt least some fnm of regional ?overn,.,ent or an improved svste"!l'~ of locai government would r.ol"e ahnut.

Th:IR, Sir, is a mllior step in the _reAlization of hetter rer.ion'll co-ooerll.tion and provi.sion nf sen•ice<: :!n the most effjc~ent Anr! economical mnnncr nossib]e. Rut, 'lr. Speaker, the St. John's TTrhro'1 Pep;ion "tudy is me.r~ly a "laster plan, in fact ~ proT'oned '!'.roster pl~n at this ti,.,e,because it ,af: not vet l:>cP.'1 form'lll~· "''ll'l"t<'rl iT' its ent:lrety or 'IS amenned. ~s A re~mJ t of tris sturl~· it "ll.S possible to irlent:lf·· t':osc provinc"s ,.·'1jcl• verP nf tor pr:iorlty, ,,,)1 i.ch coul cl become c:ri tic .11 0r •!en• nlmost criti.cal at tr1e moment.

C::'!b.S<'<]Uent !'lt•1clies 11i'!Ve ),een c:1rried svstem,and rev,ional solid waste disposal. Tn andition the Tlep2rtment of Transportntinn an~ C'omm1micati<'ns :-:::s rlone in-',r ·n.Jc :md pll~'lic rlC'~-.. 1t""' havE' hPen held nn t~·. e necessity fn1: m• :i:1:proved transportation svste,- j~ thi~ nre<' d1icl-: serves "' ccntr:1J <'"T" ,.,f this T>rov5nce, in fact we 1<ave onr-t'drn,lust >thout,cf the ft:'"O.Jlation of this Province living Hithin a fHty mile rar!ius of St. .Tn~m's.

It J~as become ev:i dent, Sir, that a region~l l'ater Sll!'l ly system is imperative in orr!er to eliminate critical shorta~. es t~1.-::t >:ave heen

May 5, 1976 Tape No. 2468 MR. N. WINDSOR: experienced by the City of St. John's in recent years and which will very likely be experienced this year in view of the very mild winter, a somewhat perdictable I would think, dry summer. MR. SMALLWOOD: Is that figure correct, one third of our population? MR. N. WINDSOR: Well,just about a third. Yes. NM- 3 MR. SMALLWOOD: That takes in out at 1-lhltbourne, Bay Poherts, r.Jarke's Beacr. MR. N. WINDSOR:That is right. Yes. There are approximately 150,000 people living in the metro area, in fact in the area covered by this.

In fact the report as stated worked on the assumption that 148,000 people lived within the St. John's Urban Region area, that is the Northeast Avalon, that is the line from Holyrood to Witless Bay. The 1971 census came out or was tabled after this report was compilated and they then revised their data. The 1971 census had a figure of 140,000 people living in this immediate region.

So you go within fifty miles which takes you, as you said, to Clarke's Beach, then you would have certainly one-third of the population of this Province living within fifty miles of the city, and the city of course being the central core of this region, the heart of this whole region, eonception Bay South now developing as a sub-regional centre, and you have your main axes of development leading from the harbour to Conception Bay South.

If you look at any developments that are taking place or have taken place in the last few years,you will see a natural trend,primarily because of topographical reasons and ease of servicing and availability of servicing,extending from the harbour in that area, plus to the northeast, the northeast development area. MR. SMALLWOOD: But surely, if the hon. member will allow me, surely when you leave metropolitan St. John's,and you leave Conception Bay 6807

May 5, 1976 Tape No. 2468 "MR. SMALLWOOD: South.yon area really runninp; out of larr,e numbers of people. You have the Southern Shore, You cannot get as far as Placentia. You can get about as far as Whitbourne, you can p,et down maybe as far as New Harbour. So NM- 4 in the Trinity Bav, the Southern Shore and the Placentia Bay side 1 you know,vou are runninr out of people. You are talking about '•1etropolitan St. John's and Conception Bay South, what is one­ third of s4n,000? FR. N. 1''INT'Sf'": 1t is about 180,(}00. MR. S}1'ALUJOOD: lllO,nOO. H!l. N. •<nmsnP: You h2.ve lSI'J,OOO Pithin this area . ~R.

S~IALLWOOD: You mi~ht stapp;er it. ~·P. N. HINDSOR: I did say almost one-third within this region or aoproximately one-third within fifty miles. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes. ~W. N. IHNnSOP: This 1~ater sunply, Sir, is not only needed for St. John's and the immediate surrounding area 1 or the area serviced hv the existing water supply system of Hindsor Lake, and nronosed expansion areas but certainly the bon. member for r.oncention Ray South (Hr. Nolan) will, I am sure, agree that it is critical that a water supply and se1~age systr•m he nrovideCI for that area. "'R. Sl1ALLWOOD: It was critical ten years ap;o. ~·R.

N. 1•liNDSOP: That is rir;ht. ~ffi • MURPHY : Why did not John !1ahoney build it up, the same thinP. five or six years ago. HR. SMALLWOOD: We figured six, seven years ago it cost SlSO million to cure that terrible problem, It costs more nmv. }<!' .• N. ~HNDSOR: And, Sir, anybody who has been involved in development of the St. John's area is well aware that imnending developments have been deferred, at least impeded,because of the shortage of water. The City has said they will not permit any more private development until a firm commitment for the provision of water from Bay Bulls is provided.

Very fortunately now of course that project is well underway u8u8

?d.ay 5, 197~ Tape 'lo. 2468 N"! - 5 MR. N. WINDSOR: and the 'tinister of Kunicipal Affairs could correct me but I would t.hi nk water, at least the first phase of that system will be in operation early in 1977, or the summer of 1977. At this point, Mr. Speaker, I would like to get to the key of this . I would like to point out that the administration of these projects and other projects have bern handl ed hy the Technical Advisory Committee to the St.

John's Orban Region Water and Sewer Board, a committee comorised of technical advisers from the varioua agencies within the regiou on a strictly voluntarv basis,and I also, Sir, would like to take this opportunity to comnliment that committee. As a former member of that committee I know how bard they are working and what a valuable committee it is . These are all people with very responsible positions and as a result of at least a half a day, normally a day per week th~y are spending on the affairs of that committee 1 t.hey have to put in long hours to fulfill their obligations to their own employers .

But, Sir, the decision on the future form of regional govern~ent has not been made,and a decision on where the responsibility for operation and maintenance of these systems will lie when completed has not been made. The U809

May 5, 1976 Tape no. 2469 Page 1 - mw MR. N. WINDSOR. Technical Advisory Committee is proceeding without the advantages of pe~manent staff and without any knowledge of the destiny of the system as to ownership, operation and maintenance, administration, financing and so forth. The same is true, Sir, of sewage disposal. Again development is being curtailed because of the inability of the existing system to accommodate increased flows!and again work is proceeding on the design of a regional system to alleviate the problem.

But, Sir, how do you design a sewage system, whrn you do not know the probable nature of development in a contributory area? Indeed,you do not know how big the contributory area is, because you have, for instance - the main one under consideration now is the 1 ~aterford Valley trunk sewer, which is perhaps the biggest sewer system that has ever been conceived for Newfoundland. The existing sewer was built, I think, back in 1963 or 1964. I think it is a forty-two or a forty-eight inch sewer. It was designed to last twenty years.

Now, Sir, just ten years later that sewer has reached its capacity,and why? ~as there a mistake made? No, of course, not. The reason that the life of that sewer has only lasted one half of the expected is simply because a plan was not available for development, a plan that was followed,or that you really could not predict the amount of development that has gone on in the western area of the city, the expansions in New Town and Mount Pearl. Nobody predicted the development of Mount Pearl, and the matter has come to light.

But, Sir, we need a master plan now, an adopted master plan, approved, agreed upon, restrictions laid down on the basis of that master plan and followed through. Developments must conform to that, Sir. You must know what percentage of your area will be industrial, and what will be the likelt contribution to a sewage system by any industrial area. What percentage will be commercial? What percentage will be residential~ And then will it be low density residential? Will it be medium density1 Or will it be high density?

It is absolutely impossible to design a sewage system without some knowledge of what is predicted for an area. Now at the moment, ti8 J 0

May 5, 1976 Tape no. 2469 Page 2 - mw Mr. N. Windsor. fine, we have a proposed plan, and design is proceeding on the basis that this plan will be adopted,or at least what will take place will be very, very similar to it, and you have other considerations. We have a large area in Brookfield Road which is designated and has been frozen for agricultural purposes, but will it stay that way? That is probably a question that will not be answered for some time. The hon. minister, of course, feels it should and many more of us do as well. But will it?

Will the pressure of development supersede the wishes of members of government? Will lands be sold and be allowed to develop? These are major questions when you are designing any kind of a system 1whether it be a water syst~m, a sewage system, a transportation system. These are answers you must have. If you do not have them then you make assumptions, and when you make assumptions your design is only as valid as your assumptions. Solid waste disposal, Mr. Speaker.

An exhaustive study was undertaken and a number of recommendations put forward, but because of varied public opinions we have not seen a start on the construction of any new facilities. My colleague, the hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment and officials of that department have looked at possible alternatives and are endeavouring to reach a solution which will be regionally acceptable. However, this pnoblem is further complicated because of the uncertainty of the tuture form of local government and the distribution of responsibilities.

Sir, how can the Department of Environment decide if we should have one major solid waste disposal system. If we do,who will pay for it? What agency do we have to collect funds from everybody contributing to that facility? Will it be the town of Mount Pearl paying St. John's a certain amount of money for use of their facility~ the town of Conception Bay paying so much, the towns of Torbay and Flatrock and Pouch Cove paying to the city of St. John's? Will it be owned by the city of St. John's? Or will it be owned and operated by the provincial government or the St. John's G8ll

May 5, 1976 Tape no. 2469 Page 3 - mw Mr. N. Windsor. Metro Board? These are decisions that must be taken. Or shall we provide a system or a facility just large enough to handle the city of St. John's and let the city own it and build it? And should Mount Pearl have one? God knows where, because there is no land in Haunt Pearl to build anything. And should Conception Bay have one1as they do now? Should that be kept? Should that be upgraded and enlarged as pressure is put on it? And should all these other towns have small incinerators or small solid waste disposal sites?

Sir, these decisions cannot be taken by the minister or his department or anyone else until a firm decision is made on the future of the local government in this region. And regional transpor-tation, Mr. Speaker. Completion of the Harbour Arterial Road, construction of the proposed outer ring road, across town arterial, bifurcation roads, the widening of Kenmount Road, Topsail Road, Prince Phillip Parkway, Logy, Bay Road, Torbay Road, all top priorities, Mr. Speaker, all very important.

But how can you place priorities on these when you do not know what or where will be the major trend of development and what will be the density development? How can you anticipate traffic flows and problems when you do not know what the development will be? How can you construct these facilities, Mr. Speaker, the tremendous amount of money that is going to be required in the future to build these facilities. We are not going to build them overnight. It is going to take a tremendous expenditure of money. Who will be responsible for finding this money?

Who will administer the construc~ion projects, ana wno will maintain these roads when they are completed? Af'ain it comes back to the key question: What form of government will we have here? But, Sir, the government has shown, of course, its concern for transportation in this area. The Harbour Arterial Road is progressing. The commitment has been made as announced recently on the Prince Phillip Parkway. AN RON. MKMl!J<.:l<.: MR. N. WINDSOR: ~lus transportation subsidy. Plus transportation subsidy, right. ,. Q. ') IJ 01 ~

May 5, 1976 Tape no. 2469 Page 4 - mw Mr . N. Windsor. There has been a start made on the Conception Bay by-pass. The right-of-way 1 I think,is acquired and cleared, another very important road. But, Sir, this programme of development must be continued and even intensified within, of course, the limitations of financial constraints. Now, Mr. Speaker, again the key t~orderly development of the St.

John's urban region is a strong system of local government, whether a system of regional government be adopted, whether existing local governments be expanded, whether there be more local governments, whether existing local governments disappear whether a system of regional boards, such as the St. John's Water and Sewer Board, which perhaps it is a permanent board or·~erhaps it is a temporary board. I do not think the minister can answer me that question. The board, Sir, is trying to build a multi-million dollar water and sewer sy~tem, and every day the question comes up~ Who are we building it for?

We need staff. We have a system that will be on stream, as I mentioned, hopefully in the Summer of 1977, the first phase of it. Who will operate that? Who will pay for it? Who will collect monies from users of water? Who will distribute the water? Who will maintain the system? Again this question cannot be answered until a form of local government is decided upon, because you do not know how many local governments you are dealing with. Or whatever the decision, Mr.

Speaker, a decision must be made so that the development of community services can continue along the most appropriate route and with utmost expediency and efficiency. Sir, I believe in the future of this Province, and I believe that the present day government will provide the guidance and leadership necessary to reap the greatest possible benefits from the tremendous potential we have available. But, Sir, I do not feel that a select committee will serve any useful purpose in this regard. What we need is action, a decision on the future of local government in the St.

John's urban region and following that decision action in the form of implementation of the many recommendations we have before us in these reports. Therefore, Sir, I cannot support the motion made by the han. Leader of the Opposition for the formation of ti813

May 5, 19 76 Tape no. 2469 Page 5 - mw Hr. N. Windsor. a select committee to study the prospects for economic growth and development. SOME HON. ~ERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. J. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I should congratulate the bon. member for Mount Pearl (Mr. N. Windsor) on his, I am sure, maiden speech. I do not think he had spoken before at any sreat length. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Ma. J. WINSOR: It is a bit awkward having to follow such a masterful dissertation against what I am about to say. Mr. Speaker, I speak in support of the motion put before this hon.

House by my colle~gue, the bon. Leader of the Opposition 1 and of whose team I consider myself a responsible member, who has had a close association with my constituents for nearly a quarter of a century. I feel this exposure has given me some expertise in their way of life, and the way they want to go. Even so I would be wrong to think that I, therefore, am qualified to make decisions affecting their future and their children's without (i 81 4 ,... .~

Hay 5, 1976 Tape 2470 IB-1 !R . J . lVINSOR: some further do~~-to-earth dialogue with them on possible ways to improve their lot, the prospects for economic growth, the development of the assets, resources both human and natural, the ~:ifferent skills which they have develope~ over the years. ~!r. Speaker, there is no master catalogue of these attributes avaflable to this hon. Tiouse as far as I can learn ~•h:l ch cou1o J ead government to !'lake masterful clecisions leading to the orderly economic growth and development of aJl areas of our Province.

If so this government HouJd have done it in such orderly fashion. on the clonkey! However it is somewhat like 1 pin the tail In view of the fact that--we do not have a resume or a fact sheet on many areas of th:ls Province with regarcl to types of development be~<t suited to foster and encourage the way of life ll'OSt desired by the people of Newfoun~land and Labrador, I subJnit that a select committee p,o to the people, determine their views, give them a chance, some input in c1ecidinr the:i r own futures.

They are much i:mportant to be left to cold cl_ecisions made hy a cabinet, in turn guided by a hi1hly pai~ c:lvi] service who 1 capable as they are 1 cannot know the des:lres of our people, area by area, community by community. 'T'hev cannot 1<rite the catalogue of skills which are a basic resource.

A select committee travelling through our Province today woul~ be able to gather fnformatj on from oJ der people, 1Jho may not be highly educatec but have a wealth of experience 1 and young people who have benefited from standards, ne~r standards in education which has produced a breed of young people who are we11 able to fouml ate new ideas and concepts of how they want to go, quite capable of developing surprising initiative and who are not going to permit this or any other government the luxury of toying with their futures. I stand t.rith my colleague, the hon. member for Burin-Placentia >vest (~'r.

Canning) when he stated that we are being autocratic rather than democratic. Let a select collliJiittee get out to the people, let the 6815

l'ay 5, 1976 Tape 24 70 IP,-2 1-'t'. J. HINSOP: peop] e speak as ~·ell as vote. Let them sre<>l· tC' the comi"i ttee. Let: the co=ittee collate the in fomation the y most assureclly '·' ill gather . J,et 1.1s not procrastinate because I fear that !'1<1ny look on the work in this hon. llouse as " mockery and not as .it shoul c1 he, a forum fol' the advance~ent of the well-being of the people.

I' any a"enues of private encleavnr, ~lc:i 11 s rassec on from v,eneration to generati .on, ne\v skills acqu:il:'erl through university trades and techno log'', vocational and a vast] v exp<>n<'!eci and iMproved educational system can be caller upon. We are expected to supn)y the leadership. Let us do it. The I"otion is a thouphtful. one, dvht for the times,and my hon. eolleC1p,ue did not present it to [ill in t:i!.,e. "e l<no\•'S the need f~r thi.s type of rliaJop11e ,,·ith the people 1vho put us here. "r. :':peal<er, the people have H<!itecl t00 long for positive aetion.

Frustrations have a habit of initi<1tinp. violent reaction. ror the present governi"ent it has a] reac'y be.en rejeetion, "'here are ll'Ore of us on thiR sicle of the House since the last election. Tt is tiMe for thell' to look to their laurels. A select corrrnittee Mipht help relieve some of theJr frustrations as \,'ell. These fruRtr-'ltjons are currently surfac inp- in Labrador, and my colleai"UE', the !"em her for Eagle Piver n!r.

Strachan) has very ahly presentee the case fnr T.ahrador. f.re He golng to be unwise enough to ignore the ple" for recor.nition as being a part of this Province? \lie \~oulcl be reMiss in our duty to this House if we ignorerl his sounrling of the v.'arninp: bel]. There are many people on this Island and in Labraclor ,,,ho from year to year live in hope that some day their r,overnment will reach out to them and to each col1'J!IunHy with a realistic and futuristic plan to help them pull themselves up from frustration i.nto the lir.:ht of prop.ress and reasonable prospects for an improved way of life.

T feel that we are just marking time fro!" one sittinr. to the other waiting for tr.e paycheck to come along. ~''any of our people cannot clo this. They have to get out and scrounge in a less than orderly

Yay 5, 1976 Tape 2470 IB-3 NR. J. WINSOR: fashion to provide for the needs of their faailies. I am talking of the basics only. '\- It is high time that we gave more thought as a governing body to these basic down-to-earth problems of t?,e peeple we represent. ~r. Speaker, there is a lot of misery to be heard travelling through your district. I am fully aware that we cannot cure all the ills and have total,satisfying prosperity. As it is said, "The poor will always be w1th us!' However I also feel that much can be done to assist these people at the local level to be more productive than they are.

It is not enough to wait for them to coma to us. lve should be getting out to them - by we I mean government - aot just a flying visit overnight,but~pend some time at it, use your imagination, use some real concern for your felJow man. Some communities are tops at handicrafts but have difficulty marketing this . 1-re can buy all kinds of Japanese and Cb!inese handicrafts in the marketpl.~ce,but very little hoMe produced items. What I have seen produced in Newfoundland · can compete with the imported product any day. In fact, it is far and a•·ray superior in qual:!ty.

Fish farming,for instance,on the Southwest Coast has some prospects. It is difficult to get down to the grass-roots type of industry in I,noo small settlements when your sithts are set on huge industries like oil refineries and oil wells. In the mean- time,they can only employ so many specially trained personnel. He have thousands who have no training in modern technology but have inherited basic skUls which should be an important segment of our gross provincial product on Which our economy depends. Yr.

Speaker, I support the motion that a select committee be appointed to enquire into thoroughly and report back to this House positively on the economie prospects for Newfoundland and Labrador as presented by my colleague, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. 6817

"'ay 5, 1976 Tape 2470 t'J!. NEA'PY: I wouJd like to move the previous ouestion, Your Honour. ~'R. SPF..AKET': h'oul <'I the hon. member repeat that? !'T. NEARY: }'T'. SPEAT{El' : I WO\•ld like to move the previous ouestion . Is the House ready for the questf"n? }~r. Speaker, a point of order. The hon. mell'ber for Jll-4 I.al'oile {]·!r. Neary) has alrea<'ly spoken in this particular Cteb:lte, so J c:lo not think he is in or<'ler in mov:l.ng to cal 1 the nnesti.e>n. If any other hon. meMber 1d shes to speak he may clo so. ~·R. NEARY: On that point of orrler, l'r. Speaker, the cmestion hfls been put. l-"J'.

"PU\o!F: ¥r. Speaker, I still maintain that the hon. memher for LaPoHe (l'r. Neary) has spoken in ·this partjcular nebate and 1n rising now he is speak inr, a second t i.,-ne on clebate. There may be other memhers wishing to speak. shoot it d01m by votinr for it. Order, please! The government can easilv HR. HICIU'"AN: I.Jhether the motion of the hon. gentleman for LaPoile (r'r. Neary) is in nrr1P.r or not obviously the rhair l'<IF not acted on that motion hut it is sill'ply a result C1f its O'-'Tl initiative l<1hich it must when nohoc1v else r1ses, to put the question.

The question has been put. >rp. s~'.ALUI00T): ~ ·ay I speak to the point of order? ~!Jl. SPEAKE"P: The hon. !1'ernber for TI,•Hlingate. lffi. SMALL\oi"OOn: 0n the point of orcler: ~'uch as I c'letest having to clisagree w:l th my hon. frienc1 and my friend, T fee] that when an hon. member has spoken to a debate he has spoken, and I do not thinl· he can speak again even to move a motion. Now that has been rewonstrated scores of times in this House and of course in all deliberative assemblies. I do not know Hhat to say about what the Attorney General has said, namely t"P.at the motion has been moved and put.

Now I ro not know what we are going to c1o about that,but I c1o not think it was in order for the hon. gentleman to move, to speak at alJ. He had a] ready spoken. ti818

!o'ay 5, 1976 Tape 24 70 IB-5 MR. NF.ARY: To that point of order, }-lr. Speaker. If it was out of order for me to move the previous question ,Your Honour, then I withdr&\1 it, but Your Honour has already put the question. So the Rouse has to deal with the question . Your Honour can igno re the fact that I nade the motion but Your Honour did put the question. ~'R. SPEA.KBR : No. I just asked was the House r eady for the question. I think I wjll recess the Rouse for five minutes for a decision . I now declare the House recessed for five minutes . U819

!'lay 5, 1076 Tape 2471 PY. - 1 MR._SPFAKER (MR. 11. YOUNG): Order, please: Due to the fact that the hon. memher for LaPoile (~fr. Neary) has already spoken in the debate,therefore his motion is out of order, and I w•ill recognize any other hen. member. The hon. member for Trinity-l\ay de Verde. NR. F. ROl-lE : --·----- ~!r. Speaker, I Fould like to speak in support of this very im~ortant motion put by the Leader of the Opposition, and Sir, I Houlcl like to refer to the

preamble to the particular resolution hefore I p;et into my remarks. The four major 'lJher<cl'ses' of the resolution 8uggest that there is great concern about the future of our Province, and the.re is increaf;in?, concern, secondly, ahout the rate ;md groHth . of development of l<mvfoundland and Labrador; and thirdly, there is increaRinp; conce.rn about the kind of grm•th and nPvelopment which shoui c1 he encouJap;ecl in Ne1~foundland and Lahrador; and fourthly, thAt there is puhlic interest that our citizens be afforded every opportunity to participate in tile grmcth and dev1, lop~1ent of ~lewfoundland and Lahrador. The fourth ''!-.Thereas' of thE'

preamble: there suggests,of course, the nE'c>d for a select committee to travel throughout the Province. Rut the other tnrec points, Sir, about the future of our Province, the rate and kind of grm~th of dpvelopment on the one hand, and the increase and concern ahout th~ kind of p.;rm·lth nnrl develo