Manitoba Hansard — 24 May 2005 (Sitting 51, 38th Legislature, 3rd Session)

38-3-51

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LVI No. 51 - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 24, 2005

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon.

Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

2897 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 24, 2005 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Pembina Trails School Division–New High School Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: Overcrowded schools throughout Whyte Ridge, Lindenwoods, Linden Ridge and Richmond West subdivisions are forcing Pembina Trails School Division to bus students outside of these areas to attend classes in the public school system.

Elementary schools in Pembina Trails School Division have run out of space to accommodate the growing population of students in the afore- mentioned areas. Five-year projections for enrolment in the elementary schools in these areas indicate significant continued growth. Existing high schools that receive students from Whyte Ridge, Lindenwoods and Linden Ridge are at capacity and cannot accommodate the growing number of students that will continue to branch out of these subdivisions.

Bussing to outlying areas is not a viable long- term solution to meeting the student population growth in the southwest portion of Winnipeg. The development of Waverley West will increase the need for a hi gh school in the southwest sector of Winnipeg. The government is demonstrating a lack of respect for the students and families in Whyte Ridge, Lindenwoods, Linden Ridge and Richmond West by refusing to provide adequate access to education within the community. The Fort Whyte constituency is the only constituency in the province that does not have a public high school.

NDP constituencies in Winnipeg continue to receive capital funding for various school projects while critical overcrowding exists in schools in Lindenwoods, Whyte Ridge and Richmond West. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the provincial government recognize the need for a public high school in the southwest region of Winnipeg. Secondly, to request the provincial government, in conjunction with the Public Schools Finance Board, to consider adequate funding to establish a high school in the southwest sector of Winnipeg. Signed by M. Nemeth, P. Nemeth, D.

Breckman and many, many others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. * (13:35) Supported Living Program Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The provincial government's Supported Living Program provides a range of supports to assist adults with a mental disability to live in the community in their residential option of choice, including a family home.

There is a lack of group homes available and this means special needs dependants must remain in the family home. The provincial government's Community Living Division helps support adults living with a mental

2898 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2005 disability to live safely in the community in the residential setting of their choice. Families with special needs dependants make lifelong commitments to their care and well-being, and many families choose to care for these individuals in their homes as long as circumstances allow. The cost to support families who care for their special needs dependants at home is far less than the cost of alternate care arrangements such as insti- tutions or group and foster home situations.

The value of the quality of life experienced by special needs dependants raised at home in a loving family environment is immeasurable. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Ms. Melnick) consider changes to the departmental policy that pays family members a reduced amount of money for room and board when they care for their special needs dependants at home versus the amount paid to a non-parental care provider outside the family home.

To request that the Minister of Family Services and Housing consider examining on a case-by-case basis the merits of paying family members to care for special needs dependants at home versus paying to institutionalize them. This is signed by Reg Berezowecki, Denise Berezowecki, Yvonne Neufeld and many, many others. Generally Accepted Accounting Principles Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

The background to this petition is as follows: Manitoba's provincial auditor has stated that Manitoba's 2003-2004 budget deficit was the second highest on record at $604 million. The provincial government is misleading the public by saying they had a surplus of $13 million in the 2003-2004 budget. The provincial auditor has indicated that the $13-million surplus the government says it had cannot be justified. The provincial auditor has also indicated that the Province is using its own made up accounting rules in order to show a surplus instead of using generally accepted accounting principles.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the provincial government to consider adopting generally accepted accounting principles in reporting Manitoba's budgetary numbers. Signed by Rorie Resendes, William Pabon and Laura Pagtakhan. Ambulance Service Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: In May 2004, 46-year-old Peter Krahn suffered a heart attack while exercising in East St.

Paul and was pronounced dead just under an hour later after being transported to the Concordia Hospital in Winnipeg. Reports show that it took nearly 18 minutes for an ambulance to arrive for Mr. Krahn. The Interlake Regional Health Authority claims that 21 minutes is an acceptable emergency response time,

whereas the City of Winnipeg uses a bench- mark of 4 minutes. Ambulance coverage for East St. Paul is provided from Selkirk, which is almost 25 kilometres away. The municipalities of East St. Paul and West St. Paul combined have over 12 000 residents. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the provincial government to consider providing East St. Paul with local ambulance service which would service both East and West St. Paul.

May 24, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2899 To request the provincial government to consider improving the way that ambulance service is supplied to all Manitobans by utilizing tech- nologies such as GPS in conjunction with a Medical Transportation Co-ordination Centre (MTCC) which will ensure that patients receive the nearest ambulance in the least amount of time. To request the provincial government to consider ensuring that appropriate funding is provided to maintain superior response times and sustainable services. Signed by M. Kirton, A.G. Kirton, S.W.H. Kirton and many, many others.

TABLING OF REPORTS Mr. Speaker: I am pleased to table in the House the Annual Report of the Conflict of Interest Commis- sioner for the 2003-2004 year. * (13:40) INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 48–The Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): I move, seconded by the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Struthers), that Bill 48, The Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la pension de retraite des enseignants, be now read a first time. Mr. Speaker: It has been moved by the honourable Minister of Education, seconded by the honourable Minister of Conservation, that Bill 48, The Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act, be now read a first time. Mr. Bjornson: I am pleased to introduce Bill 48, an amendment to The Teachers' Pensions Act. This amendment is part of the progress this government has made on teachers pension legislation. In consul- tation with stakeholders, Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to say that Bill 48 is a step towards ensuring the long-time viability of teachers' pensions. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from Prairie View School 14 Grades 7, 8 and 9 students under the direction of Mrs. Geraldine Rempel. This school is located in th e constituen cy of the honourable Member for Morris (Mrs. Taillieu).

Also in the public gallery we have from Parkland Christian School 13 Grades 7, 8 and 9 students under the direction of Mr. Lester Goossen. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Conservation (Mr. Struthers). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Health Care Services Private/Public Partnerships Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, according to the National Post, this NDP Premier was in Toronto last week touting the fact that provincial governments should quote, "look to private providers to improve service within a single-payer system." Mr. Speaker, while he does not have the political courage to say that here at home, this Premier, while in Toronto, was not shy about promoting public- private partnerships in health care while he emphasized, and I quote, "practicality must trump the rigid dogma that surrounds socialized medicine." Mr.

Speaker, now that this NDP Premier has a long overdue conversion on the road to Toronto, will he stand in the House, turn in his place, and say to the Health Minister that he should meet with the Maples Surgical Centre to ensure that all options in front of Manitobans are looked at? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): The article, I believe, talked about the fact that when we were in office we sent cancer patients that required treatment to the United States. Members opposite may laugh about that, Mr.

Speaker, but when we came into office we were aware that there was a proposal made to the former government that outlined the risk to individual safety and health of patients waiting over eight weeks for cancer treatment. We then decided, against our so-called election promise, we had to basically admit that the situation was severe and we sent patients to the United States to get cancer

2900 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2005 treatment because that was the right thing to do for patients. Members opposite did not want to do it in government because they were worried about the political ramifications of that. Well, we put politics aside, Mr. Speaker, and we– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I have to be able to hear the questions and the answers. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

We did that but at the same time we were sending patients to the United States, we were developing a strategy with resources with CancerCare Manitoba to reduce those waiting lists from eight weeks to seven weeks to six weeks to five weeks to four weeks. We were still sending some patients to th e States at four weeks. We finally had reduced it to one week, and that is what I was meaning when I was talking about the Canada Health Act. Its first requirement is to deal with patients' needs, and I think the Minister of Health proved that with the action he took with our patients in the States. * (13:45) Mr.

Murray: We hear from this Premier from time to time about the Ameri can style of health care system and how bad it is. Where is he sending patients? To America, Mr. Speaker. It is unbe- lievable what this Premier will say when he is in Toronto, but he does not have the courage to say it here in Manitoba. Under his watch now in Manitoba there are some 12 emergency rooms closed in rural Manitoba. The Brandon hospital's chief of emergency is warning that patients could be placed at risk in an emergency doctor shortage as the hospital reaches critical levels in Brandon.

In Winnipeg the WRHA is going to keep at least one city operating room closed every day of the week. Mr. Speaker, Manitobans deserve better health care. Under this NDP Premier, they are getting less and less health care by the day. Just last week this Premier was in Toronto talking about the need to ensure the work with the private sector and the benefits of it. Mr. Speaker, he will not do that here in Manitoba. I ask him simply will he turn in his place and instruct his Minister of Health (Mr. Sale) to look at all options, meet with the Maples Surgical Centre because that is the right thing to do. Mr.

Doer: I would remind the member opposite, when he talks about what happened in Toronto, that that was announced, I believe, in Manitoba some five years ago, Mr. Speaker, maybe over five years ago. It was a public announcement made, I believe, in late October, early November 1999. It was a public announcement that was made–[interjection] Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister. Mr. Doer: –and I was pointing out in the discussions about the Canada Health Act, in that discussion I said and I still say, we support the Canada Health Act and the five principles contained within it.

Having said that, under the Canada Health Act, we have in the last few years not been fined as we had in the past for provisions that are outside of the Canada Health Act. Some of the corporate entities that the member opposite is the one-trick pony for in British Columbia have been fined. Maybe the members opposite want to spend the taxpayers' money on paying fines and clawbacks to Ottawa. We want to spend our resources on pa tient care, Mr. Speaker, patient care. The member opposite talks about talking to members around him.

He may want to talk to four former Cabinet ministers who refused to send patients to the United States before the election and put their treatment at risk. We changed that, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, I would love to stand in my place and remind this Premier of all of the things he said about health care, but Question Period simply is not long enough. He promised Manitobans and he failed. We know that the Maples Surgical Centre has some very cost-effective pr oposals that they put in front of this government but they will not even meet with them, let alone return their phone calls.

The duplicitousness of this Premier is appalling. On one hand he goes to Toronto and says working with the private sector is something that we should all look at, we should provide innovation in health care. He says that in Toronto, but he does not have the political courage to say it here in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker.

May 24, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2901 Maples Surgical Centre said very clearly they have flexible schedules. They could reduce pediatric, hip and knees. All of those things are important to Manitobans. If he believes in health care for Manitobans, he will turn in his place and simply say to his Minister of Health explore all the options in front of you. Explore every option available for Manitobans, because that is the right thing to do. * (13:50) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would point out to the members op posite that there are procedures approved at Western–[interjection] Too many notes. I have not read any of them. I usually get time to read them after the question but– [interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would point out to the member opposite his one-trick pony solution to all of health care that– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable First Minister has the floor. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would point out to the member opposite that when we had cancer treatment waiting lists that were too long we sent patients to the United States. When we had a situation where some procedures had to remain in the private sector, I believe Western clinic is still receiving patients in Manitoba. We also, though, took over and stopped a clawback of public money when we took over the Pan Am Clinic. We have increased– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I need to be able to hear the questions and the answers. We have students in the gallery and we have the viewing public.

They came down to hear the questions and the answers, I am sure. So I ask the co-operation of all honourable members, please. The honourable First Minister has the floor. Mr. Doer: Thank you. The United States Western clinic– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, we also had a situation with the Pan Am Clinic where we stopped the clawback of money from the federal government. We increased the procedures and, interestingly enough, the cataract operation costs went down $300 at a private clinic with our action. That is what we do. We try to deal with the challenges of patients.

I would say to members opposite that there remains to be challenges. There are challenges in this province dealing with the doctor shortages in some of the locations, members opposite have mentioned. We are still trying to do that with bursary programs, more students in medical school, retaining more doctors here in Manitoba. We have a shortage of anesthetists, which is very important for the operating waiting list time.

We have acknowledged that and we have some challenges obviously ahead of us, but when you look at the three sets of actions we have taken dealing with patient care you will always have a government that puts patients first. Physician Resources ER Doctor Shortage (Brandon) Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Well, it is nice, Mr. Speaker, that the Prem ier (Mr. Doer) has finally recognized that there is a serious shortage of physicians in the province, but maybe if he would take some action in recruiting and retaining then we could actually get someplace. The doctor shortage in Brandon, Mr.

Speaker, reached crisis proportions quite some time ago and yet this Premier and this Minister of Health have refused to do anything about it. According to the Brandon Regional Health Centre's chief of emer- gency medicine, and I quote, "Patients could be placed at risk as an emergency doctor shortage at the hospital reaches critical levels." Over the last few months we have repeatedly questioned this government, this government's inac- tion on the issue of physician shortages in Brandon.

2902 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2005 What do they do? They put a spokesperson for the Minister of Health who states that, and I quote, "You cannot just add water and stir to get more doctors in the province." Now there is a profound statement. It has been six months and absolutely nothing has been done. I would like to ask the Minister of Health what is his plan to– Mr. Speaker: Order. * (13:55) Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I am delighted to serve in a government where our Premier and the previous Health Minister did take action.

They moved the number of doctors in training from 70 up to 85. We moved it now up to 93. That is taking action. We put in retention and recruitment bursaries and payments for physicians. That is taking action and the result of that action is 160 more physicians in Manitoba today than there were in 1999. Of those 160, 52 are in rural Manitoba. The Brandon situation is one that is challenging but there is a new ER doctor coming in July and there is a locum for the summer, and all shifts will be filled. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr.

Speaker, the minister knew in January that two ER doctors in Brandon would be leaving at the end of April. The recruiter for the Brandon Regional Health Authority on January 11 said, and I quote, "We have got a lot of time. We will be able to find someone." Mr. Speaker, unfortunately the recruiter has now been recruited elsewhere, and Brandon is now without two ER doctors and one more leaving in July. Clearly the minister has been aware of this looming crisis for months, yet he has failed to develop solutions to the doctor shortage in Brandon.

What is the Minister of Health's plan to ensure that western Manitobans are able to access the emergency services in Brandon? Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, I was in conversation with the CEO of Brandon Regional Health Authority this morning about this because I am concerned to read in the Brandon Sun that there is an issue of this nature that has arisen, apparently without sufficient warning for us, so I was in conversation with the CEO. She indicated they have a new physician coming in July.

They have a locum for the summer and she indicated that all shifts would be filled and that the Brandon Regional Health Authority's ER in Brandon hospital will not be closed. I take those assurances with some degree of satisfaction, and I believe that the CEO is a very responsible and capable person and that she will fulfil the commitment she has made to the people of Brandon and to her health authority. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, this is the Minister of Health. He is responsible for health care for all Manitobans. It rests on his shoulders to ensure that proper ER doctors are in place.

It has been an issue since January. I quote in a letter to the editor dated November 6 of 2004 from three Brandon doctors, doctors Sutter, Maier and White, who said, and I quote, "The Minister of Health and Manitoba Health should realize that Band-Aid, short-term, election- year-to-election-year solutions will not work. It is time to think outside the box, to study other models that are more successful in recruitment and retention of specialists and develop some imaginative new solutions that reflect and understand Brandon's unique situation and needs." That was November. That was six months ago, Mr. Speaker.

We have repeatedly asked questions in this House of this Minister of Health and this Premier and warned them of the seriousness of the doctor shortage crisis, and now the minister is saying that he just realized because he picked up the Brandon Sun today. Well, shame on him. Will the minister ensure that not one person is turned away from the Brandon hospital's emergency because of the shortage of physicians? Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, the CEO of Brandon Regional Health Authority has given that assurance and I have confidence that she will do that job on behalf of the citizens of Brandon.

But let me tell the member opposite, through you, Mr. Speaker, that the previous government received a warning in 1996 from the Canadian Association of Emergency Physicians that estimated that by the end of the century, that is 1999, there would be a shortage of over 400 emergency room doctors in Canada because of the cutbacks in medical school enrolment. Yet, for four more years they did nothing to reduce their cutbacks.

Had they acted in a timely fashion, we would not be sitting in the situation we are today where we have fewer doctors graduating than we need because that government made cuts to medical schools in Manitoba. That is perhaps some history she should be aware of.

May 24, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2903 Rural Hospitals Emergency Room Services Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, what is becoming abundantly clear is that Manitobans cannot believe the promises that are being made to them by the Premier (Mr. Doer) nor by the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I would and I think Manitobans would probably choose to believe a professional who says, and I quote Doctor Norman, "I do not think that the public needs to know we no longer have a problem. We have got a serious problem." Mr.

Speaker, small hospitals across rural Manitoba were assured that their facilities and their services would not close. The Premier made that commitment. The former Minister of Health made that commitment, and today we see 12 emergency room services across this province closed. In addition to that we have the Brandon situation. I would like to ask the Minister of Health when he is going to take some positive action to assure Manitobans that the Premier's commitment regarding facility closures and service closures will be fulfilled, Mr. Speaker. * (14:00) Hon. Tim Sale (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I think that the record is very clear. There are 160 more doctors today than there were in 1999. That is not enough. That is why we are raising the enrolment in the medical school so that in years to come there will be more physicians. That is also why we set up the Office of Rural and Northern Health, and I want to commend that office for the tremendous work they did earlier this year in helping us to resolve some situations in The Pas where we now have a stable situation. We will continue to have challenges in a number of physician areas: pediatricians, anesthetists, and obviously ER doctors.

We will continue to compete aggressively for the available supply, but the available supply is smaller than it needs to be because of decisions that were made in the 1990s, decisions that were warned against by, for example, the Canadian association of emergency room doctors in 1996. Unfortunately the previous government did not heed those warnings. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, after this Premier has been in office for six years we have 12 communities in rural Manitoba who are without emergency services, yet something that this Premier promised that would not happen.

Secondly, the second-largest community in this province, being Brandon, is now in danger of losing its ER services because of the inaction of this government. What are patients to do? Where are patients to go w ho need those services in the areas where their emergency room services are closed and yet they cannot get into Brandon to meet their needs? Where are th ey to go? Where is the accountability of this minister? Mr. Sale: Mr. Speaker, first of all, the member opposite is putting together a hypothetical situation. The Brandon ER is open. It is functioning.

I am told by the CEO that it will continue to be open, will continue to provide the quality service that it has provided over many years. So let the member opposite not fearmonger among residents of western Manitoba who can be assured that Brandon will remain open, who can also know that there are 52 more doctors practising in their communities, in rural Manitoba, than there were when this government form ed office in 1999.

So let the member speak to the real situation which is the structural shortage of physicians because of deci- sions that were made in the 1990s to cut back on enrolment in medical school when we were losing doctors to the United States by droves because of the way they handled the situation. We now have 160 more. We have more in training. We will work to continue to resolve this problem, but it is– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, this has nothing to do with fearmongering.

This has to do with the commit- ments and the promises that were made by the First Minister of this province to communities in rural Manitoba when he said that it is not the RHAs that sign the cheques, it is we who sign the cheques. He assured communities that no services would be lost. Today we have 12 communities without emergency room services. Why would people not be afraid of a situation that might result in Brandon when this minister was warned about it in January and yet he has done nothing? I ask this minister when he will take action and ensure those rural communities, as well as the people

2904 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2005 in western Manitoba, that emergency room services will be there when they are needed. Mr. Sale: Well, Mr. Speaker, we have taken action. There is a new hospital in Brandon. There is an MRI in Brandon. There are 52 more doctors in rural Manitoba than there were in 1999. There are 869 more nurses than there were in 1999. There are 140 brand new ambulances that were not here in 1999. There is a new CT scanner in Portage being opened in August. There is a commitment to an MRI in Boundary Trails.

There are new CTs in Steinbach, in Selkirk, in The Pas and other communities in Manitoba. The record of action of this government is incredibly positive, and we will continue to work to resolve the issues that remain. I can commit to the people of Manitoba that we do not ever stop trying to solve the problems that occur in our health care system, many of which occurred because of the dismal days of the 1990s. Youth Violence Reduction Strategy Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): This weekend Manitobans were shocked by the senseless act of youth violence against a 10-year-old boy who was lit on fire.

The accused were 14, 13 and 11 years old. Sadly, Winnipeg's police spokesperson said that this is a trend. It is a growing trend towards youth violence and violent youth crime. Violent youth crime threatens the safety of our province, and it threatens our reputation, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Justice has failed in six years to provide programs and to provide a deterrence on youth crime. Why has he failed Manitobans on this issue, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, myself and I know members on this side were certainly very concerned to hear of the situatio n on the weekend and the account. We say that not only as parents and I as a proud northender, but as well I think we have to think of the impact that these kinds of accounts also have on youth. It is for that concern that this government has ushered in a new era of several programs, initiatives and investments to counter the threat of youth crime amongst young Manitobans and against Manitobans.

I think, for example, and this is just one example, but rather than just complain about the Youth Criminal Justice Act as I know members opposite did when they were in government, we did something when the federal government did not deliver, and that was Turnabout. The only program of its kind in Canada to deal with– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Goertzen: The minister talks about Turnabout, but it is a roundabout way to avoid his own responsibility. In November of 1996 the Premier (Mr. Doer) stated that he would provide a positive and comprehensive response that provides alter- natives to youth.

After six years in government, police say that the trend towards violent crime among young people is going up, not going down. Mr. Speaker, the youngest of the accused in this horrific act was five years old when the Premier came to office and when the Minister of Justice came to office. He has grown up under their system of justice. After six years of empty press releases, after six years of empty promises, condolences might be appreciated, but they are not enough. Why has this minister failed the victims of this family? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, it is certainly our hope and our best wishes to Kasey Richard that his injuries will not be permanent, and it is our hope that he will recover in a very timely way. I remind members opposite that, according to those who measure violent youth crime, people from Ottawa, they told us that violent youth crime is going down in Manitoba by 5 percent, but one incident is too many.

One incident is too many, which is why we take violent youth crime very seriously, which is why as a government not only have we ushered in Canada's only program to deal with those who offend under age 12 and to provide help and consequences for those, but, Mr. Speaker, it is this government that has put in place 34 Lighthouses to provide hope and opportunities and a positive place for youth when they finish school for the day and on weekends. We want to expand that, and we have committed to expanding it. In fact, in this budget there are four more Lighthouses. Mr.

Goertzen: The Minister of Justice talks about hope, and he talks about opportunity, but what hope

May 24, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2905 and what opportunity are there now for this poor young 10-year-old victim who is in hospital? What hope and opportunity are there for other families? Now we learn that the family of this poor victim say that they have to leave the city of Winnipeg because they are scared, because they are worried about bringing up their children in the city of Winnipeg because of the violence that has happened under this NDP government. If that is what the Minister of Justice calls hope, if that is what he calls opportunity, we all have a lot to be worried about.

He has been in that office for six years. He has had the opportunity to address this issue. He has failed. We are looking for real hope and opportunity. Why has he failed the victim? Why has he failed the families, and how many other victims will there have to be before he fina lly takes real action, Mr. Speaker? * (14:10) Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, we are interested in solutions not pointing fingers, which is why we are dealing with the youth court to shorten the time lines. We are dealing with cases there. I have talked about Turnabout. I have talked about Lighthouses.

We now have a Fire Stop program for intervention for those who are engaged in fire lighting. I want the members opposite to know and to think about this. You know, the answers to youth crime cannot be solved on ly at the courthouse as members opposite would want some people to think. Mr. Speaker, the answers to youth crime also engage Healthy Child Manitoba in helping young mothers. It involves working with parents to ensure that the Positive Parenting Program, a $1.4-million invest- ment, enables parents to better deal with their children.

It is about historic investments in public education with the Minister of Education (Mr. Bjornson). It is about investments in healthy children. I could go on, Mr. Speaker, but the point is this– Mr. Speaker: Order. Crocus Fund Maple Leaf Distillers Investment Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, since its initial investment of $1 million in 2000, the investment by the Crocus Fund in Maple Leaf Distillers has grown to at least $7.4 million that is reported on the audited statement of March 31, 2004, and it may be more by now. I spoke to the chair of the parent company of Maple Leaf.

He indicated to me today that they are in the process of discussing with the Crocus Fund the possible buyback of this investment from Crocus. In addition to this, Maple Leaf has been the recipient of a $1.5-million loan from the provincial government. I would just ask the Minister of Industry if he would confirm today that Maple Leaf was in fact one of the companies that was being carried by Crocus at an inflated value, how much this company has been devalued on the Crocus books and what effect, if any, this will have on the government's ability to make good on their $1.5-million loan. Hon.

Jim Rondeau (Minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the member opposite is aware that there are issues regarding the Crocus Fund. What is happening now is that there were concerns about the fund so, therefore, independent third-party evaluators were going in to evaluate all of the funds and all of the investments of the Crocus Fund. So third-party investors are looking at the valuations of a number of companies within the Crocus Fund investments.

There is also an investigation by the Auditor General and the Manitoba Securities council that are investigating the management and the practices. As you know, we do not, Mr. Speaker, control any of the investments or any of the management or any of the operation of the fund. We continue not to operate this way. The board of directors and executive of the fund look after the daily operations. There are ongoing investigations and third-party evaluations for the new valuation. Mr. Loewen: Mr.

Speaker, the question involved what the government did with the $1.5 million that they gave to Maple Leaf, but the minister does not want to answer that either. The issue is not the investment. It is whether or not Crocus's financial statements and their prospectus carried the invest- ment at its true value. Mr. Speaker, not only was Maple Leaf the recipient of funds, they were the recipient of glowing statements in a press release from the government of Manitoba, particularly the Premier (Mr. Doer). David

2906 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2005 Wolinsky, the chair of the parent company, is quoted as saying, "the commitment of this government under the leadership of Premier Doer has been quite remarkable." The president of Maple Leaf Distillers– Mr. Speaker: Order. When addressing another member in the House, our rule is that the members should be addressed by the titles they hold or members by their constituencies. I ask the honour- able member to maybe readdress that. Mr. Loewen: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I apologize for that. I will reread the quote.

The quote is from the chair of Protos, the parent company of Maple Leaf. "The commitment of this government under the leadership of the Premier has been quite remark- able." The president of Maple Leaf went on to say, "the unprecedented support and assistance that Maple Leaf Distillers has received from the Government of Manitoba, and in particular the Premier," and these are the types of statements that are in a government press release from a company that received a $1.5-million loan.

I would ask the minister if he would indicate today what due diligence was undertaken by his department regarding this loan, or was it simply a suggestion of the Premier that they give them 1.5 million bucks. Mr. Rondeau: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what the former government did but in this government what we do is we ensure that there is appropriate due diligence for the MIOP loans. What we have is we ensure that there are loans given to companies so that they expand in Manitoba so that they increase the employment levels in Manitoba.

Under the MIOP program, I have to inform the member that the Maple Leaf Distillers is current. The payments on the loan are current, and they have done well in this area. They have started in Winnipeg. They are an expanding business. We are pleased to have a company that is expanding in Manitoba and in Winnipeg. We hope that our entire industry and economic base expands. That is the purpose of venture capital. That is the purpose of the MIOP program, to expand business, to increase employ- ment and to develop our province economically. Mr. Loewen: Of course they are current in their loans.

They are taking money from Crocus and using it to pay back the government. It is not that complicated. Mr. Speaker, over 33 000 Manitobans have seen their retirement savings shrink as Crocus concealed its losses that it had incurred and inflated its share value. In the meantime, this NDP government has co-invested with Crocus and companies like Maple Leaf and the MTS Centre and in other ventures that the government refuses to talk about. This minister has a responsibility to disclose to shareholders and to taxpayers the details of the investments that have led to these devaluations of over $60 million.

He has had the Auditor's Report for ove r two weeks. He has had the allegations from the Securities Commission. I simply ask today if the minister is willing to make public the details of which Crocus investments have led to the devaluation of the fund. Mr. Rondeau: I will explain three of the major failed investments which are over $30 million worth of losses. This is Isobord, made under the previous government; Westsun, made under the eyes of the previous government and Winnport Logistics, made under the previous government.

So when the previous government had oversight of the fund that fund lost $35 million, set up by the previous government, designed by the previous government. Not only did the previous Premier and the Premier's Finance Minister take cred it, they signed off on the original memo of understanding. You set it up. We are cleaning up your mess. Air Pollution Reduction Strategy Mr.

Ron Schuler (Springfield): According to today's Winnipeg Free Press , Manitoba has the distinction of becoming North America's third-worst lead air polluter in 2002, which adds further credibility to the claim that the worst thing for the environment is this NDP government. Can the minister tell this House what attempts his government has done to improve Manitoba's air quality? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): Certainly, Mr. Speaker, all jurisdictions including Manitoba take this problem very seriously.

We are working in co-operation with the federal government and the industry and other partners, including

May 24, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2907 environmental groups and First Nations in the area, to make sure that we take action and take steps not only to test and monitor and get data so we can make good decisions, but also some improvements to the facilities which have produced a 62% reduction in the particulate matter that the Member for Springfield has brought forward here today. Our commitment is that we are going to work very, very diligently to reduce those sources of particulate matter, whether that be SO3, or that be mercury, or whether that be other particulates that we are concerned about.

This is an issue we take very seriously, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Schuler: After that answer, no wonder we have a problem. On February 3, 2004, this NDP government announced a letter of understanding with the Chicago Climate Exchange to create a climate trust. In the words of this Premier, this agreement reinforces Manitoba's position as a leader of innovations and taking action on climate change. Is it this NDP government's belief that being a leader is coming in third last? * (14:20) Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Energy, Science and Technology): Mr.

Speaker, I am very pleased that this was the first government probably in North America to outline a climate change, climate reduction plan that has been recognized worldwide in terms of reductions of carbon and reductions of greenhouse gases. I only ask members opposite to look at the actions that have taken place: wind farm, up and running; coal plant at Selkirk, shut down; ethanol plant, on the way– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Just wait a little longer, Mr. Speaker, a few more sleeps for members opposite. Mr.

Speaker, I recognize in the Kyoto action plan is the most aggressive reduction targets to meet and exceed Kyoto reductions of any jurisdiction in the country. Mr. Schuler: Perhaps this minister did not hear what I said in my first question but we are recognized worldwide as North America's third-worst lead air polluter in 2002. In February of 2004 this NDP government stated this climate trust agreement reinforces Manitoba's position as a leader of innovations in taking action on climate change. Instead of leading, we now find that Manitoba is almost dead last when it comes to air quality.

Will this minister report back to the House what his government's plan is to live up to the Chicago climate trust and how much will it cost? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, maybe the member opposite did not hear my answer the first time when he asked the question. We have a 62% reduction in the particular matter that he is bringing forward in the House today. That is a reduction. That is an improvement because we have improved, along with Hudson Bay Mining & Smelting and with INCO, the amount of particulate matter that is produced by those facilities and in fact released to the air.

We have been working on this problem and we have showed very definite improvements in the results that we have. As the minister has explained, we have closed down the coal-fired plant at Selkirk, something members opposite could have done when they had an opportunity when they were in power but for some reason refused to do. Mr. Speaker, we are taking this very seriously and I think it shows in the actions of this government. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for River Heights, on a point of order? Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, I ask for leave to put my question. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been denied.

2908 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2005 MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Woman Entrepreneur of the Year Awards Mrs. Bonnie Mitche lson (River East): Mr. Speaker, I had the privilege of attending the Women Business Owners of Manitoba 2005 Woman Entrepreneur of the Year Awards banquet last Thursday. There were 24 finalists with 8 women receiving awards. One entrepreneur, a constituent of mine and a friend, Jane Campbell, received the International Trade Award for her work at the Panache model and talent management and school.

The criteria for this award include a woman who has developed a successful international business by using effective marketing strategies and creative solutions to any trade-related challenges. She has increased sales, profits and/or employment through increasing her international competitiveness. Jane Campbell has not only met but exceeded these criteria. Opening Panache in 1991, she worked hard to provide a learning environment for young aspiring models while also teaching them the business side of the fashion industry.

Her training not only develops skills and business sense in young people, but also builds self-esteem and allows young people to enter the workplace with confidence. Over the years, Jane Campbell's work has also helped to build a positive image of the modelling and talent industry. Providing these services in Winnipeg has allowed many talented people to live with their families and attend school or work while pursuing their professional career paths.

The young women and men Jane Campbell has taught and mentored have walked the runways in Milan, London, New York, Paris and Tokyo, to name but a few international fashion centres. Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate Jane Campbell and all of the finalists and award winners for their many hours of hard work, their commitment to excellence, and their contributions to our economy. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Entrepreneur of the Year Awards Ms. Marilyn Brick (St. Norbert): Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to highlight an important event that I attended on behalf of the Minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines (Mr. Rondeau) on Thursday, May 19 at the Hotel Fort Garry. This event was th e 2005 Best in Business Practice Awards ceremony, and the awarding of the 17th annual Entrepreneur of the Year Award by the Manitoba Business Magazine. Mr. Speaker, the entrepreneurship shown by all award winners is a testament to the innovation and creativity of Manitoba's businesses.

This year's award winners proved that by adapting to industry changes and capitalizing on opportunities, Manitoba businesses are providing leadership in their industry areas and are successfully contributing to our diversified economy. Ms. Polly Craik, President and CEO of FineLine Solutions, was chosen to be this year's Entrepreneur of the Year. She is the firs t woman to be chosen for this award. Ms. Craik helped build FineLine Solutions into a global competitor in information management systems.

The company specializes in call-centre technology systems, integrated voice response, Internet-based office support technologies and security lockbox syst ems for processing pay- ments or donations received by companies. Major FineLine clients include the American Diabetes Association, the American Arthritis Foundation, the Salvation Army and several others. FineLine Solutions is based here in Winnipeg. In addition to recognizin g Ms. Craik, the awards ceremony also recognized several innovative Manitoba businesses for their exceptional business practices.

These include North American Lumber, Man-Shield Construction, Inc., Crosier, Kilgour and Partners Ltd. and the R. G. Mazer Group. Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate Ms. Polly Craik on being awarded Manitoba Business Magazine's 2005 Entrepreneur of the Year. I also want to congratulate all other award recipients and thank them for contributing to Manitoba's economy. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Woman Entrepreneur of the Year Awards Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): On Thursday, Mr.

Speaker, several colleagues and I had the privilege of attending the 2005 Woman Entrepreneur of the Year Awards hosted by the Manitoba Women Business Owners. There were 24

May 24, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2909 finalists with eight women selected as award winners. Sherrill Hershberg of Hartford Investments Ltd. received the Building Business Award for her development of I. J. Drummond Place. The Impact on Local Economy Award went to Heather Boyd, owner and operator of Basics of Your Day Store located in Warren. Heather has built her business and now employs 20 people. Jane Campbell of Panache Model and Talent Management and School was selected for the International Trade Award for her expansion from local to international fashion centres.

Priti Shah of PRAXIS Conflict Consulting participates as a volunteer and fundraiser with a number of community and charitable organizations. For these outstanding contributions Priti received the Contribution to the Community Award. The Home Enterprise Award went to Kal Barteski, owner and operator of iDeaMonsters which provides artistic and graphic design services to a number of businesses and organizations. Donna Warenko of Granite Internet Services Inc. received the Excellence in Service Award for her delivery of quality and personalized computer services to the Pinawa area.

Gladys Sarens of SunShade Products Ltd. built and expanded her family-based business over the past number of years. For these efforts Gladys received the Lifetime Achievement Award. The overall excellence in Emerging Business Award went to Dallas Ballance of GoodwinBallance Communications. Dallas's recently established business provides marketing and event planning services. Mr. Speaker, this was an incredible night to celebrate the entrepreneurial success that women have achieved, acknowledge the contributions these women have made to communities and recognize the economic impact they have on our province.

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate all of the nominees and award winners on their valuable contributions and the impact they have on our province. Thank you also to the Women Business Owners of Manitoba for hosting this wonderful banquet. On behalf of all my colleagues, we just want to acknowledge all of the work of these phenomenal women. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (14:30) Aboriginal Awareness Week Mr. Drew Caldwell (Brandon East): I rise today to remind the House that May 24 to 27 is Aboriginal Awareness Week.

This week of commemoration was introduced in 1992 to spread awareness of Aboriginal peoples among public service employees. The long-term objective of Aboriginal Awareness Week is to foster increas ed employment and greater retention in the workforce. This is particularly important in Manitoba as Aboriginals represent the fastest growing population in our province. With a population of over 120 000, Manitoba has the greatest proportion of Aboriginal people out of all 10 Canadian provinces. Mr. Speaker, our government is committed to increasing the number of Aboriginal people employed in Manitoba's workforce.

That is why last week we announced funding for a new Aboriginal employment strategy in the Central Manitoba Regional Health Authority. This funding builds upon several previous employment initiatives involving the RHA. Since 2002, the Province has supported the development of Aboriginal employment strategies in the North Eastman, NOR-MAN, Brandon and Burntwood regional health authorities. To date, supported by my friend and RHA Aboriginal co- ordinator, John Mayer, the agreement with the Brandon Regional Health Authority has created employment for 78 Aboriginals in a number of job classifications.

Aboriginal peoples have contributed greatly to the development of our province, and they will continue to play a vital role in the future. I would like to commend this government for working to develop a labour force that is truly representative of the population it serves. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Legislative Assembly Sitting Days Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Liberal Party has for many days talked

2910 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2005 about the importance of democracy within this Chamber. In fact, we have argued that this Chamber does not sit enough days,

whereas in 2003 we sat for 35 days and last year we sat for 55 days. One of the fundamental reasons why we feel that this govern- ment needs to be sitting more days is because we recognize the value of government accountability. The best way to get government accountability is to allow for the orderly fashion of a Question Period in which members of the opposition are given the opportunity to hold the government to account for the actions that it is taking and, in many cases, the inaction that it is taking. We sense a little bit of frustration, I must say, Mr.

Speaker, because we genuinely feel there is a need for all sides of this House to be heard and be heard in a fashion which is fair to all members of this Chamber. In fact, I believe, firmly believe, that it is in Manitobans' best interest that all sides of this House are adequately represented inside this Chamber through Question Period.

Time and time again, we have seen Liberal leaders, whether it is Sharon Carstairs, Paul Edwards, others, we have seen independents within this Chamber, where we have seen one member, each and every time they have been given the courtesy of being able to ask a question during Question Period, each and every time. You will find, Mr. Speaker, even some leaders as independents, by themselves, got more than one question in Question Period.

I would suggest to you, I would highly recommend, that the Legislative Assembly needs to give more consideration to revising the rules in order to ensure the fundamental issue of accountability and affording members of this Chamber the opportunity to ask the questions that they feel are important to their political infra- structures is absolutely critical. If the Legislature is not prepared to do that, one has got to call into question just how effective and in the alternative– Mr. Speaker: Order. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, I believe there is an understanding to take until four o'clock with bills and then concurrence. Would you call debate on second readings in the order they appear, to be followed by Bill 22? Then would you please call Supply at four o'clock? Mr. Speaker, just after consultation, if we can just prioritize some of the bills on that list. Bill 36 can go first, then 30 and 2 in that order, and then the rest if there is time after that. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 36–The Courts Administration Improvement Act Mr.

Speaker: Resume debate on second reading, Bill 36, The Courts Administration Improvement Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck). What is the will of the House? Stand? Some Honourable Members: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Agreement for it to remaining standing in the name of the honourable Member for Pembina? An Honourable Member: No, we do not. An Honourable Member: No, we want it standing. Mr. Speaker: Okay, okay. Is it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Pembina? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No.

That has been denied. Okay, the honourable Member for Russell, to speak. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): I welcome the opportunity to put a few remarks on this bill on the record, Mr. Speaker. Occasionally, when we get a chance to look at our court system and how it works, there is always time for us to improve how to ensure that matters that are taken by a judge hearing cases and all of a sudden that judge happens to have something go wrong and passes away or retires or whatever, sometimes things are left in limbo. This particular bill, as I understand it, does clarify a

May 24, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2911 process that can be undertak en if that kind of an issue occurs. Mr. Speaker, it also, as I understand it, allows a municipality to appoint a screening officer to deal with certain by-law offences that are committed in that municipality's jurisdiction. The other thing that it does is it also increases fines and gives the registrar of motor vehicles the power to refuse to register a vehicle to a person who has an outstanding fine. So it empowers the courts to deal with people who have been flagrant in dealing with the law in a more definitive way. * (14:40) Mr.

Speaker, I think if we really look at where our justice system is going, there are some concerns we all have raised in our minds. One of the concerns, I think, is the whole issue of youth violence in our province and the escalation of not only youth violence but the nature of the violence as well. We have just seen over this past weekend what happens when youth, for one reason or another, decide to take their rage out on an individual. In this particular case we had a young fellow set on fire.

In the course of my time in this Legislature, I have never seen anything like this, and it speaks to the attitudes and perhaps our societal values that we have, or started developing at the youth level. Somehow we have to address this, and we look to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) to bri ng forward some form of regulation or legislation that will discourage this kind of action. Mr.

Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair Yes, educational programs are indeed very important to deter this kind of activity taking place, but when you have it taking place so many times as we have seen over the course of the last number of years in our province, it is starting to reach a crisis level. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think it is time for the Minister of Justice to take a very hard and serious look at what programs we have to develop to try to stem this kind of activity. Mr. Speaker, you reach out into the communities and find that schools are not able to deal with this matter.

Our communities themselves cannot deal with these matters. The police on the streets cannot deal with these matters effectively either. It has to be a total effort. I think we have to develop a partnership approach to some of these problems so that we involve parents, we involve the community, we involve schools and we involve our police officers. I think there is an important element in terms of educating, I should not use the term "educating" but making sure that our judges can, in fact, deal with these types of situations far more effectively than they are given the latitude to deal with them now.

Because these are minors, because they are under a certain age, judges and society are limited in what it can do. But I think if we really look at the situation in a practical way and if we develop programs that are going to try to curb this kind of an activity at an early age, those youngsters will be then more likely to succeed in their lives and not get into problems as they get older. Mr. Deputy Speaker, those youngsters who get into problems at this age, if they are not given the tools to deal with their anger, to deal with their violent behaviour, those young people will probably re-offend at a later age.

What that means is our penal system, our judicial system, will once again be taxed and challenged by those individuals reappearing for offences that would have reoccurred in their time. Mr. Speaker, I believe very strongly that, although this bill amends the judicial act, The Courts Administration Improvement Act, I think we need to take a look at some of the events that have occurred over the last year or two, and we have to take some serious action in terms of where we go and the types of activities we are going to engage in to make sure that crime is deterred at the early age.

I do not know why, but we even find in small communities where students know each other very well. It is not as though they do not know one another in a small community, but you have these kinds of acts of violence and these misdemeanours, if you like, and these unfortunate behaviours occurring in these communities. One has to ask himself why. What is causing this in our society? Teachers are throwing their hands up in frustration. They cannot deal with this in their schools because we have not allowed teachers to have the kind of power they once did in dealing with these kinds of behavioural issues.

Not that we should condone teachers being able to use physical force, but there are time-outs that can be used. There are

2912 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2005 ways to deal with these types of behaviours that perhaps we have to ensure the teachers are not only educated in that area, but, indeed, are empowered to do things that will deter this kind of behaviour. Mr. Speaker, I think society is a bit frustrated today. I think people out in the communities are frustrated today because they do not know what to do. So they look towards government to show leadership.

I think we as legislators here in this Chamber have a responsibility to challenge the people who work in the judicial system, to challenge the people who can develop these innovative programs, to challenge us to look at other juris- dictions that perhaps have had some success in dealing with these matters. I do not know where that could be, but I think we need to start collaborating with other jurisdictions.

We need to start looking to where there have been some successes and start taking the things that might work for us in our society and implementing them for the benefit of the students that are involved and also society as a whole. So, Mr. Speaker, although I would have to say that the minister has taken some action in dealing with some of the shortcomings in this legislation, I think there is much more that can be done, should be done and needs to be done in the future.

This is a tiny step, perhaps, but a step that I think can be improved on greatly if we really put our minds together and address the problems that we see facing us daily, especially when it comes to some of the types of situations that have occurred in the last few weeks. With those few comments, I thank this Chamber for the time. Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I want to thank the Member for Russell for the comments that he put on the record. Certainly, I know in working with my colleague from Russell, he takes issues of justice very seriously.

I know he raises these issues often on behalf of his own constituents, that he is concerned about the safety of Manitobans, both in his community and, indeed, across the province, so I enjoyed hearing his comments. I appreciate the spirit from which they come forward. On Bill 36, which is the bill that comes before us this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, I know, in looking over the legislation, there were a number of issues that came to mind.

Certainly, I do not think that, on the premise of the legislation, which essentially has to do with reworking the administration of the court system, there is great objection but there are certainly some issues that we do have concerns with as opposition. I do note, first off, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that the issue of long delays was brought forward by the Member for Russell. I think that that is very germane to this particular debate which is happening in the House this afternoon. I know that the Member for Russell touched on the extraordinarily long times that we have within our justice system.

They might only be matched by the long waiting times we have in our health system. I do not think that is a good record for the NDP to have, to be trying to increase waiting times for court trials, to be trying to increase waiting times for those people who are desperately looking for medical attention. We saw, I think, just a few months ago, how any people, we saw it in black and white, how many individuals, who have been accused and charged with a particular crime are waiting for the dispensation of their trial, were waiting to actually have their day in court, as it was.

In fact, I believe, that there were over 2000 individuals who were waiting for more than two years to have their trial brought forward. So we can suppose that most of those individuals, as is the way of this government with bail proceedings, were not waiting in the Remand Centre across the street for their trial, but, of course, they were waiting in the communities for those trials. Two years, they were awaiting this trial. I would say that, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when we talk about the justice system, that raises concerns from two perspectives.

Certainly, on the one perspective, we know that each individual who is accused of an offence is, in fact, under our legal system innocent until proven guilty. To wait for two years for that trial, their individual trial, to come forward, I think, is absolutely wrong and is absolutely abysmal because, for those individuals, many of them, I am sure, certainly believe individually that they are innocent, that they are not guilty of that particular offence. To wait two years to try to defend their own name on that individual charge is, in fact, unacceptable.

It is unacceptable to them as individuals, and it is unacceptable to their families. * (14:50)

May 24, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2913 In essence, when a person is charged with an offence much of their life is put on hold. Much of their normal life has to kind of cease to be until that issue is dealt with in a court. To wait for two years as the wheels of justice grind slowly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think is absolute ly shameful and it is not acceptable to Manitobans.

Of course, the other side of that coin is we certainly know that many of the individuals, and in fact statistics would, I think, support me when I say that most of the individuals who are charged with an offence both here in Manitoba and across Canada, when their case is actually dispensed within a court of law, they are found to be guilty of the actual offence that they were charged with or some other offence, some lesser offence that might have come as a way of a plea bargain.

So we do know the vast majority of individuals who are charged with an of fence in the province are, in fact, found to be guilty during trial or before trial. That leaves the question th en about our safety when over 2000 individuals are waiting for trial for more than two years and they are waiting within our communities. We have to be left to wonder about the actual safety of our individual citizens who are living in communities, the neighbours to these individuals who are working with these individuals who, in fact, later will be found to have been guilty of committing this crime.

It also, of course, brings the question about bail proceedings, Mr. Deputy Speaker, about how it is that individuals are caught by the police. I give a lot of credit to the police in our province who do a fine job with the resources they have. Certainly, they are out there every day putting it on the line on the streets to get these individuals off the street. I hear the frustration in their voices when I speak with them, and I do speak with police officers in our province and around our province quite often.

I do hear their frustration when they tell me they pick an individual up who, they suspect, has been guilty of a particular offence and bring them in for the charge, but before they can even get the paperwork done that individual is out the front door. They are not even able to get back on the street and the rest of their evening is finished.

That is the frustration, and it is compounded by the fact that when these individuals who are charged with offences go before a magistrate or a justice of the peace or a judge in our province, they are released so often, time and time again, despite the long history that an individual might have. It almost becomes a news story these days, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when somebody is denied bail in our province.

We know there now is almost a presump- tion of bail that an individual, regardless if this is their first, second or third offence, if they are standing before a judge or magistrate or a justice of the peace, we know there is almost a presumption they should be released from custody. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, we are certainly concerned with those long wait-times we see within our justice system because of not only the impact it might have on the accused, which we often do not speak much of, but of course the impact that it would have on individual citizens and their safety within the community.

We are left to wonder if the catch- and-release system we have developed here in the province of Manitoba is simply because of an unwillingness by the NDP government to put the resources into the justice system. We know that– [interjection] Well, now I hear the Deputy Premier (Ms. Wowchuk) has awoken in her seat and wants to put some words on the record about justice. I had the opportunity to– [interjection] And now the Minister of Advanced Education (Ms. McGifford) has also awoken in her seat. I guess she is fresh off of raising tuition fees for young students.

I know that the Deputy Premier has– [interjection] I have had the opportunity to visit her riding not too long ago. I had the opportunity to visit the great constituency which she represents. In talking to constituents, it was interesting because the two issues that came up most often were the poor justice system that we have in the province and the long waiting times for hips and for knees. In fact, I individually sat with some of her constituents who are waiting for those long replacements. In fact, I think the individual whom I spoke with said she was waiting for two and a half years for a knee replacement.

Also, there are individuals in our province who have been waiting two, or two and a half years to go to trial. So it is almost as thou gh they are trying to reach for the top on both of those waiting lists, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I do not think that is a record they should be proud of and looking forward to emulating any more.

2914 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2005 We do have concerns that the lack of resources that are placed within our justice system is one of the reasons we are having so many bail releases in the province. We know that if bail was much stricter, if it was not such a presumption in terms of getting bail within the province, there would be more difficulty on the resource, and there would be more of a strain on those resources. Certainly, we on this side of the House understand what it is to live within a budget.

I know that is difficult for members opposite to fully comprehend, but we know there are priorities that have to be placed on budgets, and there are priorities that have to be placed on spending. I would argue, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that putting those resources into justice and not giving kind of a presumptive bail would, in fact, give a safer society and would pay for itself over time. I know it might not be easy to measure in quantitative measures, and it might not be easy to put a dollar figure on it immediately, but I do believe that safety within our society would, in fact, help us with our economic growth.

I raised a question today in Question Period regarding a tragic incident which happened this weekend, and I know the parents of the young individual who was the victim said they were no longer planning to live in the city of Winnipeg, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because of this violent incident that happened to their son.

One wonders when news like that filters out and other people hear that these parents are no longer prepared to raise their children in the city of Winnipeg or perhaps, indeed, in the province of Manitoba, what an impact that has on us as a community, what impact that has on our province on an economic basis. Certainly, I know the government opposite and the Deputy Premier (Ms. Wowchuk) probably were sitting around the Cabinet table when it was approved, are going to be spending a half-million dollars on a New York ad ag ency to try to spruce up the image of Manitoba, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

It is difficult to try to balance the two off when you have parents who are in the paper saying, "We are going to leave the city of Winnipeg because we no longer feel it is a safe place to raise our children." and a half-million-dollar ad campaign to try to spruce up the image. I would say to the Deputy Premier and her colleagues in Cabinet that the way to give Manitoba and Winnipeg a strong image would be to clean up the streets, to clean up the violence we have in the province and the city. Yes, that might cost more than $500,000, but I would say it will be money well spent.

It would be money that would come back to our province in spades over time, and I would encourage the government and members of the Cabinet to look at that particular provision. I know when we talk about the administration of the courts, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is difficult to do that without speaking about police officers in the province because, in fact, th ey are really one of the same arm.

We have the legal system and the police system which goes about apprehending those individuals who we believe are guilty of committing offence against one of the very statutes, provincial or federal, that we have here in Canada. We also know then that they go into the justice system.

I mentioned earlier the commendation I gave to the police in our province, the City of Winnipeg, municipal police forces and, of course, the RCMP, our national police force, but I think it is telling when we talk about The Courts Administration Improve- ment Act that you could administer the courts in the most efficient way which is not happening in Manitoba. Even if you did, if you did not give that funding to police officers on our streets, the most efficient court system would not provide a safe society for us as Manitobans to live in.

It is for that reason I have been disappointed, and I have raised this issue a number of times, why it is that we have the lowest number of police per offence in the country, Mr. Deputy Speaker, or one of the lowest number of police per offence. I believe we have one police officer for every 38 offences that happen within our borders of Manitoba. Certainly, I would hear from members of my caucus, and particularly in my rural caucus, who would come forward and say, "Well, one officer for 38 offences, in fact, our communities are much worse." * (15:00) Indeed, I have talked to police officers around the province.

I think the offence ratio in Portage is about one officer for every– [interjection] Mr. Deputy Speaker, 170. I almost did not believe my ears when the Member for Portage (Mr. Faurschou) said it to me, but, in fact, one officer for 170 offences. Again, I was mentioning to the Deputy Premier (Ms. Wowchuk) that I had been to the Dauphin area and a number of other areas where I have heard from those RCMP detachments that they

May 24, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2915 are dealing with about 140, 150 cases for every officer they have. How is it, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that these fine officers that are on our streets, how can they do their job when they are trying to balance off a caseload of 158 cases? We know that there is investigative work that goes with cases. We know, depending on the nature of those cases, that it is an extremely difficult, difficult thing to deal with. I hear time and time again that they are just simply overwhelmed. Despite the spin that the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Mackintosh) tries to put out about more officers on the street, we know, when talking to officers both in the city of Winnipeg and other jurisdictions through- out Manitoba, that there are no new officers in place today, that they do not expect there to be any more officers today than there will be in the fall of this year because they simp ly cannot recruit them because they simply do not have the resources to put them in place.

In fact, what I hear from most detachments and from most municipal forces and the national force, our RCMP, is they fear there will in fact be less officers later on in the year because there just simply is not the graduation rate happening among officers. We know across Canada that it is a competitive field for officers. We wonder if the Minister of Justice has put the resources in place for these municipalities to be able to recruit officers on a basis– [interjection] I know I hear from the Member for Morris (Mrs.

Taillieu), who also is very concerned about justice issues and, I know, who raises them on a frequent basis to her community and within here in the Legislature, that many officers are going to other jurisdictions or going west. I suppose that is very similar to a lot of things. It almost seems to be a pattern where we have graduates coming out of our universities who are going west. We have doctors who are graduating who are going west or who are going south. We have individuals who are coming out of our police programs who are going west.

That certainly concerns all of us here in the Legislature and, indeed, throughout Manitoba. I would say to the Minister of Justice that, yes, it is fine to kind of tinker around the edges to some extent with administration of courts, but what is it that you are really doing to ensure that people who are committing crimes are coming off the streets by giving police the resources they need? That is, in fact, what justice is about. It is about ensuring that those individuals who are breaking the laws of our province and of our nation are, in fact, being held accountable for that. Mr.

Speaker in the Chair So administration of courts, of course, is only one thing. It is only one piece of the puzzle, but there is, in fact, a broader agenda that needs to be brought forward if we are truly going to have a justice system that is going to make a difference. I know that within Bill 36, Mr. Speaker, there is a provision to move two justices from the general division to the family division of court. I know, in speaking with friends of mine who practise family law, none of them would dispute the fact that there is a significant backlog within our family court division.

They would not dispute for a second that there is a need for new judges in that area. What I think they would dispute is that there should be kind of this shuffling of chairs and moving the two from the general court into the family court division, that if you really wanted to make a difference, you would simply add the two additional judges to the family court without taking them out of the general court division. That, in fact, would help to speed up the process of justice. An Honourable Member: Federal judges' fault. Mr. Goertzen: Oh, now I hear the Member for Minto (Mr. Swan). It did not take him long.

It did not take the Member for Minto long to pick up his colleague, the Minister of Justice's (Mr. Mackintosh) mantra about it is all the federal government's fault and we need to leave everything to the federal government. In fact, I do not think that everything is the federal government's fault in justice. I remember very clearly, in fact, a nd I might do this as an education for the Member for Minto, who I respect actually as a friend in this Legislature. So I do this out of the best intentions, Mr. Speaker. I refer back to an inte rview, a radio interview that was done June 9 of 1999.

The now-Minister of Justice, who was then the Justice critic, said that it was simply a diversion to try to point fingers at the federal government. I think that the federal govern- ment has a good a reason to ask Manitoba, "What are

2916 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2005 you doing to provide leadership?" Those were good words from the now-Minister of Justice. Of course, he does not remember them or chooses not to remember them, I suppose, when he is often pointing criticism at the federal government when there is clearly responsibility within his own jurisdiction. But I would ask the Minister of Justice to consider putting forward more resources within the Justice system to clear up those backlogs.

You know, I spoke earlier about the backlog that we have within our court system, both in adult and in the youth side, spoke about the 2000 individuals from the adult court system who were waiting for over two years for their trial, waiting over two years to get that justice, either for themselves or to have justice delivered upon them. And I look, and I ask the Minister of Justice, why it is that he has forgotten some of his own words in the past.

I look at, again, it is from June 9 of 1999, the same interview with the Minister of Justice, he said that the swifter the consequences, the more effective the consequence when dealing with the court system. And he nods his head in affirmation now, and, of course, I think that we can all agree with that particular concept, but it means nothing when the Minister of Justice does not put forward the provisions that actually make it happen. You know, the now-Premie r (Mr.

Doer) of this province, I also believe, is on record by using those kinds of quick quips that he often tries to be famous for, and he said that justice delayed is justice denied. Now, of course, he said that, I believe, at a time when he was sitting in opposition, so I guess it maybe was a little too convenient for him to say it.

But, when we see that there are these long delays, and thousands, and I mean thousands literally, of people waiting for the court system to come forward and the court system to take action on their particular offence, I wonder where the Premier is, the same individual who said that justice delayed was justice denied. I would challenge the Minister of Justice who, in 1999, said that we needed to stop pointing fingers at the federal government, that it is simply a diversion, and now I see the Minister of Justice nodding his head again.

It is interesting because it was only an hour or two ago when he was pointing his finger at the federal government, and now he is agreeing with his comments from 1999 that, in fact, there were things that we can do.

So this is an example of the duplicitous position that we often see from members of the New Democratic government and, in particular, this Minister of Justice, where it is convenient to issue a quote that points to the direction of the federal government, that tries to put that blame squarely on the federal government, but that is the convenient thing to do in interviews and it is a convenient way to try to get out of a difficult political situation but, in fact, that is not what he said when he was in opposition.

I tend to agree with the former Justice critic when he said that, in fact, there were things that he could do within his own provision. We know that the role of the Minister of Justice and Attorney General in our province is not a lobbying position. The Minister of Justice does not receive his individual stipend, or his additional stipend as a minister, just so he can simply go forward and lobby the federal government on issues.

There must, surely, be powers within that are vested within that ministry, because if his only role in this province is to be that of a lobbyist, I would have to regrettably say that he is a very poor lobbyist and maybe it is time that there become a different person to take up that lobbying torch. But, Mr. Speaker, I say that somewhat rhetorically because I know, in fact, that those are not the only powers that are given to the Minister of Justice, that he is not paid by the good people of our province just simply to lobby to the federal government on behalf of a number of issues.

His role is far greater than that and the powers that are vested to the minister are much greater than simply flying off to Ottawa once every three months or so to go and knock on a couple of doors and talk to a couple of assistants about things that he would like to see changed within the Criminal Code or things that he would like to see changed regarding sentencing. * (15:10) Mr.

Speaker, we know that the minister, as he has acknowledged, that he acknowledged back in 1999, that he, in fact, had a number of different powers that are vested within his particular office, and that pointing the finger at the federal government in Ottawa was simply just a diversion. I read also the

May 24, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2917 quote from the minister in 1999, "It is not good enough for the provincial government to point fingers at the federal government in respect to children under the age of 12 when the provincial government has every right now and has for years the ability to deal with youth under the age of 12." The minister nods his head again in affirmation, but he simply forgets that he has been the minister for six years and that very little has been done that is making any impact on young offenders in our province. We heard from the police spokesperson this weekend.

I think it is a rare thing. It is not a very usual thing for the police to come forward and to make these kinds of statements. It must have made the minister quite disconcerted to hear the spokes- person for the Winnipeg Police come out and say that youth violence and the type of youth violence, the severity of it, was increasing in the province of Manitoba. I know that is not the kind of spin that the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) likes to put forward. It is not the kind of legacy that he wants to leave as a long-serving Mini ster of Justice in the province, but, unfortunately, it is what is happening.

It is important that we as legislators deal with the reality of the situation, that we understand and recognize what is really happening in the province of Manitoba. It is not, simply, good enough just to put out news releases. I have a binder full of them here. If I chose to read through all of them that the minister has issued over th e last six years, I would have to ask leave of the House to not only sit beyond this date but probably to sit much longer. That is the legacy that the Minister of Justice is leaving.

I have a great degree of sympathy for our police officers, specifically in Winnipeg, but, indeed, across all of Manitoba, who are having to deal with this increased violence, who are having to deal with the frustration of bringing people into the station and processing a charge only to see them walk out the door even before that paperwork is completed. I have a great deal of frustration for the remand culture that the Minister of Justice has developed here in the province.

I have a great deal of frustration with and sympathy for the frustration that our police feel with the catch and release justice system that is going forward here in the province of Manitoba. Those are frustrations that I know the members opposite do not like to hear. It is not certainly the kind of image that they want to put forward as a party. The Minister of Justice has done his very best. I will give him credit here. He has done his very best to try to put forward a perc eption of a very different kind of NDP justice system than what is really happening.

He has done his best to try and leave an impression that a great deal is being done when, in fact, very little is being done. When we talk of the court backlogs, we know that there were 1319 adults and 158 youths that have been charged in the last year who had those charges outstanding for more than 18 months, that is 1319. As I mentioned, there were 2702 adults and 238 youth who had criminal charges outstanding for more than a year.

The most egregious number, the one that I think came as the most shock to Manitobans, was that there were 1795 adults and 351 young people who have been charged with criminal offences who had those offences outstanding for more than two years. So that is 2000 individuals who have been waiting for two years. It is 1500 who have been waiting for 18 months or more, and it is 3000 who have been waiting for more than a year.

That is an awful lot of individuals who, ultimately, we know, will be found guilty of the particular criminal offence that they have been charged with who are living beside our friends and our relatives, Mr. Speaker, who might, in fact, and I suspect with those high numbers it would be impossible not to believe that they will not, go on, some of them, to commit offences when they are, in fact, back on the street waiting for their trial to come forward. So I share that frustration that the members of the police have brought forward to me as the Justice critic.

I know that they brought it forward to the minister as well. Certainly, they have told me that they have met with the minister and expressed their concerns for a number of years in this regard and in many other regards. I referred earlier in the day to comments that were made by the Premier (Mr. Doer) back in 1996. I believe he was having correspondence with a constituent of his and made note of the fact that he believed there needed to be a comprehensive review and a comprehensive way of how to deal with young offenders. I agree with that concept and with that premise.

It is certainly one that I have repeated in the Legislature here before and within my own community but it is not enough just simply to go forward and say that you agree with something. In fact, you have to go forward and do it.

2918 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2005 Mr. Speaker, we know that we are going to hear, perhaps, from other individuals in committee. I know my time is running short, so we do look forward to moving this bill forward into committee so that we can hear from some of the presenters on this system and the court system in general as well as the specifics of this particular bill.

With those comments, I want to thank all the members of my caucus who have been very supportive on justice system s and justice issues and feel there is not enough being done but much more could be done in the future and much more will be done when members of the Manitoba Progressive Conservatives return to government. Mr. Speaker, with those few words, I look forward to seeing this bill move forward to committee. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? No. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I too have a few words I would like to put on the record in regard to Bill 36.

I know many might suggest to you that this is a bill that is not as substantive as it actually is. I think there are some significant things that are occurring within Bill 36 that we do have to give very serious consideration to, and at the end of the day, the principle of the legislation is something which we can support and seeing it going to committee. As I have said on other bills in the past, it is always of interest to see what the public might have to say about bills. This is one of those bills, as I indicated, that does several things, and I want to be able to review some of those things. Mr.

Speaker, as I have done on other bills, I would like to give a sense in terms of what has actually taken place with regard to Bill 36 given that it was first brought into the House in first reading on April 26 and then in second reading on May 10 and now we have it before us today in expectation that the bill will actually go to committee. Mr. Speaker, we see the benefits of all legislation ultimately being voted upon and going into a committee stage if in fact it succeeds in the vote. I think what is really important is that we at times reflect on some of the processes that allow it.

We were somewhat concerned, as an example, Bill 36 is a bill that has just a huge impact, but there is also a bill the government gave first reading to in regard to The Teachers' Pensions Amendment Act earlier in Question Period and then they expect to see it passed. You look in terms of how much time we have as a Legislature to deal with the legislation itself. That is why I say we have concern and that concern is not only in regard to this bill but other bills that we see how they are brought forward, the overall management of government business or affairs within this Chamber.

I think this is one of those bills that it would have been nice to allow for a good period of time to go by, for example this summer, in order for us to ultimately see it come out in September, Mr. Speaker, for the committee to provide the summer for others to be able to provide comment on. I think far too often we are in too much of a rush to see bills actually being passed without allowing some sort of due process. I do think the government is a little bit rushed. When we look at it , when I say rushed, there are other responsibilities within this Chamber in terms of the concurrence.

In one sense we are pleased the government is calling bills, but we are very concerned about the amount of hours that we are dealing with concurrence. We do not have very many days left.

If you do a rough calculation of hours in which we are going to be sitting inside the Chamber, you will find the number of hours for debate, unless, of course, the government approaches and says that now we want to be able to have leave in order to get the agenda dealt with, and we are always somewhat cautious to provide that, how are we going to manage the affairs of the province in an orderly fashion? * (15:20) Bill 36 is a good example of that in the sense that the expectation is that a few will speak on it for the simple reason that we have other legislation that has to be debated, other legislation that ultimately has to go into the committee stage.

I think at the end of the day that is a mistake. I believe that to be a mistake because, as we go into this bill, I think that what you will see is it is a bill of significance. That is why it is that I believe it would be most appropriate to have a more thorough debate on this bill, as there are other bills that are before us that we need to have that legitimacy of debate inside this Chamber prior to it going to committee.

May 24, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2919 Having said that, we are not in a position in which we want to prevent legislation from going into committee. I think we have been exceptionally supportive and encouraging for the government to do what is right in terms of bringing legislation in. We address the bills as they come before us, and we will continue to do that in the area of justice. That is why it is interesting we are talking about the courts administration office, and that deals with the whole issue of justice.

The member from Steinbach, I think, expressed a lot of frustration about just what this particular Minister of Ju stice (Mr. Mackintosh) has been doing or has not been doing. I can say, Mr. Speaker, that I share in a lot of that frustration. You know, the other day, I think it was Thursday last week, I was on the way down to our fine building. I stopped by the Provincial Courts building and I did a quick count. I counted six marked police cars.

In addition to that, I noticed there were also unidentified cars or ghost cars or whatever termi- nology one wants to use, but the bottom line is that they were police cars. I have had opportunity, as I am sure other members have had opportunity, to talk to our Winnipeg's finest, and in fact, I should not even say Winnipeg's finest, all law enforcement officers, to try to get a better sense in terms of what is happening within our cour ts.

There is a great deal of frustration in regard to how our courts are being run and the lack of real, tangible will from this government to address the issues that are facing our courts today. I look at the types of things the government could be doing in order to bring in legislation that would really make a difference. What I see, Mr. Speaker, is legislation, once again, that really does not hit the mark to the degree in which it is going to have the type of impact that is going to be able to see less crime in our province. The Minister of Justice, today during Question Period we saw some of it.

I know the Leader of the Manitoba Liberal Party was quite anxious to deal with some of these problems this morning, for example. We talked about the kid, the child that was set on fire by three other children. It is a very sad story. I listened to the one response that the Minister of Justice said. He said, you know, overall crime, or something of that nature, is down by 5 percent. Well, I do not get that sense. You know, you and I and a number of others represent North End constituencies. Some of us are driving in that area on a daily basis, as I do.

Whether it is Burrows Avenue, which I live on, or Selkirk, there is a whole area of Winnipeg that has been sadly neglected, and neglected in a very real way. What we need to see is a government, in particular a Minister of Justice, that is going to bring forward ideas and legislation that is going to have a real, tangible impact. This is a Minister of Justice that has no shortage of words. He will talk about all the wonderful things he is doing in terms of being able to combat crime.

I like to think of myself as an optimist, but, as I say, I drive in Winnipeg's North End every day and it is difficult to see how the minister has really improved things. I do not see what it is the minister is actually talking about. A week and a half ago, going over the Salter bridge, I looked to the left and there was a garbage can in which an individual was murdered and dumped into, Mr. Speaker. I drive down the streets in which we see incidences of, in this case, over the weekend, a child that was burned by other children. I see people that are on dope.

I see people that are in a situation in which, unless government becomes more progressive and proactive at dealing with these issues, they are not going to disappear. You know, I had the opportunity to talk on radio this morning. The initial thought was we were going to talk about youth that are 16 and maybe what can be done in terms of enabling them to vote. The first caller that called in made reference to the real problem of young people in our justice system, what are we doing in regard to justice. He cited the kid that got burned.

I think, you know, when Charles Adler asked the question, "Well, what would you do?" the individual was virtually at a loss in terms of, well, what is the answer. I do not look at that as a positive thing. I look at these issues as very complicated. Sometimes it takes time in order to make a real difference. My response, and the essence of my response, is we have got to start looking at what is actually happening, the real situation. There are things that we can do that can make a difference. If you say, "Well, look, we are going to put a harbour house or a Lighthouse here.

We are going to do some things in order to attract young people." I can tell you they can be exceptionally successful in the right circumstances. I think, for example, I participate in a kids' club. Later on this evening, I am going to be involved with

2920 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2005 a number of children at a local church, Mr. Speaker. I think that our churches provide all sorts of wonderful opportunities for our young people. In particular, I am going put some focus on that North End and providing programming. To what degree does government get involved in directly supporting every aspect of our society? You know, I am a little bit disappointed in the sense that you would expect a New Democratic government to be a little more progressive in certain areas, having a bit stronger of a social conscience, but I have not witnessed that.

I challenge the government to start looking at what its policies and, more importantly, what its policy statements through press releases are actually saying and what sort of results we are seeing. So I can see, you know, the government in the future looking at this particular bill, Bill 36, and saying, "Well, you know what? We brought in The Courts Administration Improvement Act to improve our courts." And stand up there and say, "Hey, look, we brought in the legislation and we are making a positive difference." This is the type of thing which the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) would be saying.

In reality, what sort of things could the Minister of Justice be doing, in a very tangible way, that are going to make a difference so that, at the end of the day, we are going to see less crime on the streets? You know, they have what they call courtroom junkies, Mr. Speaker. They are individuals that kind of hang around the courts. Some of them are retired individuals. I know my father was one of those individuals at one point. They enjoy observing the legal process and seeing our courts in action. I have had an opportunity to discuss some issues with these individuals.

You know, I would recommend to the Minister of Justice that he get more in tune with what is actually happening. There is a great deal of frustration in terms of the number of remands is an example, bail hearings, the types of things that are happening in our bail hearings. * (15:30) I made reference to the number of police cruiser cars in front of our courts. Do you know how frustrating it has got to be if you are the man in charge of allocating out resources? I will use the Winnipeg Police department as the example.

That particular individual, whoever he or she might be, has a very finite amount of real, tangible dollars to use, and those dollars are in fact being used. [interjection] I have not got to that yet. Those real, tangible dollars are a finite amount, and have to be used in a way which is going to try to alleviate the concern the public has in regard to crime on our streets. Imagine the frustration of sending six cruiser cars, and quite often you are talking about two individuals in each cruiser car.

You are talking anywhere from a half dozen to 12 or 15, 16 police officers to courthouse for one morning and the actual cost of that, the amount of pressure on that individual in terms of not being able to pay overtime. What we do is we see a lot of our police officers tied up in our courts when the public does not want to see them there. Where they want to see them is on the street. They want to see them biking around in some of our inner-city communities. They want to see them in our community police offices.

They want to see them cruising down the many different streets and beautiful communities that we have in our city, not sitting outside the court waiting for yet another remand. We make reference to the catch-and-release policy or mentality which this Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh) appears to be supporting. These are the types of things that could really make a difference, but instead, the Minister of Justice will do things at times, that, yes, they are okay.

There is nothing wrong with them, and, as I say, if I do not get the chance to go through them this afternoon, I am sure I will during third reading, to talk about more specifics, some of the things that this bill is actually doing. There are so many things that as a Minister of Justice he could be doing, and he is intentionally choosing not to do so and at great cost. If you take a look at all his press releases–one day in Question Period, I clearly demonstrated just a handful. It was a handful of press releases is sued by this Minister of Justice. If you look at that, it is unfortunate.

If I only had the resources to do all the clippings and find all the media attention given to those press releases, and you are to give that a spla sh over, let us see, a one- week time span, you would think that Manitoba has no crime. After all the actions taken by this government, you would think there is no crime, but nothing could be further from that statement. At the

May 24, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2921 end of the day, Manitoba is not doing any better today in dealing with crime than it was back in 1999. There is a valid argument to be made that, in fact, we are doing a whole lot worse under this adminis- tration. I think the time has come that this Minister of Justice resign. I do not believe this Minister of Justice has done the type of job he could have and should have done as the Minister of Justice. I am disappointed in the Premier (Mr. Doer) of this province by not recognizing that fact.

How long is he going to continue to sit back and do nothing while the issue of crime continues to grow in our province? I do not think the government really has an appreciation of what impact crime is having on our citizenry. When I knock on doors, people will tell me, "Health care is important. It is really the No. 1 issue." Then, I will have other people say, "Education is really important, the No. 1 issue." "The economy is really important, the No. 1 issue." They want to remain focussed on having dialogue on those issues.

One of the issues that I find kind of crosses over so, if it is not No. 1, it is very close to it, is the issue of crime. The issue of crime is an issue which virtually anyone and everyone will talk about. They all have opinions on the issue of crime, and I truly believe the government is not addressing that issue. What they are doing is they put the finger up in the wind and say, "What are the populous types of things to say as Minister of Justice?

What can the Department of Justice do from within in order to try to portray the impression that we as a government are getting tough on crime in our province?" Then this stuff starts to come to the top. Some legislation is more challenging than others in terms of being able to support or not support. A good example of that is the legislation I was just talking on the other day in terms of the children, like bills. This is not the only bill that the minister has brought forward this session.

The other day, I was talking about the drunk driver, and now you are going to get additional fines if, in fact, you are caught drinking and driving and you have a child in your car. Well, Mr. Speaker, children are very vulnerable, I will acknowledge that, but there are others that are vulnerable, equally vulnerable, that enter into that vehicle. To what degree is the government going to be open to amendments to that degree? Maybe what we should be doing is making that legislation better.

Maybe there are some things that we could do to make it better, but I do not believe that that meets the objective of what it is that this government is really trying to do. I think, like Bill 36, they have legislation that comes before us, in which the Minister of Justice uses it as a way in which he can stand on a pedestal and say that we are getting tough on crime. I think that the Minister of Justice really needs to review in terms of how it is that he is manipulating the public.

You know, the provincial auditor, when it came down, and I cite as an example about the province's deficit, the Province, if you talk to members of the government and so forth, they will tell you we had a $13-million surplus. The provincial auditor says, "Well, we have a $600-million-plus deficit," and the auditor, in essence, not only takes legitimate shots at the government, but I think, if you read between the lines, you will see that ther e are even shots in terms of members of the opposition, in terms of that we have not made the public aware of reality. Well, I think that is the case here.

I think that the government has been very successful at portraying to the public a false image of a government that is tough on crime. So, if you take a look at some of the things that this particular bill does, what happens when a judge is hearing a case and retires or dies? It is a decent issue to be dealt with in legislation. I think many people would have the curiousity to know.

It is important that, because if a judge unexpectedly retires or unfortunately passes away and there are cases that are on his docket, some of them quite complicated, we have a sense, in legislation, that you do not have to start the process all over again, because we know how long the process can actually be. I have had opportunity to talk to some real victims, Mr. Speaker. I, unfortunately, have known very close friends that have had children murdered, not one family, but a couple of families.

I can tell you the devastation within the family and the impact that it has had on the individuals is just phenomenal and what they want to see is that they want to be able to see justice in a quick fashion, in an orderly fashion. If I was to speak out against something of this nature, I think they would be quite upset, because you do not want, when you get these

2922 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 24, 2005 complicated cases, you do not want anything to go wrong if a judge prematurely, for whatever reasons, was to die. So it is out of respect for those individuals and others that this is a part of the legislation which is quite positive. It enables our Chief Justice to accept a judge, to appoint a judge, from outside of our province. At times, it might dictate that justice would be best served if, in fact, we had someone from the outside coming in to our province.

Again, I do not know to what degree that might actually happen today or if it has really happened in the past in a formal way but, again, it is something that makes a whole lot of sense. One would expect something of that nature. We are pleased to see that being brought into the legislation. * (15:40) This is something that is really worthy of note, Mr. Speaker, that the registrar of motor vehicles will be enabled to deny a person from being able to register a vehicle as a result of having outstanding fines. Well, that is a fairly significant consequence.

I had a constituent of mine who came to me–and we all hate drinking and driving; I made reference to the legislation earlier. A number of years ago he made the stupid decision to drink and drive, got caught, and he had his driver's licence suspended. The individual himself acknowledges it was a stupid thing to do. Having said that, another stupid thing he did is within that year he drove again, and he was not supposed to drive. As a result, it is a long drawn-out process, but at the end of the day now it is a five-year suspension and the hardship s that are going to have to be incurred as a result.

He was not caught drinking and driving for the second time; he was caught driving without a licence. The impact is very, very real. When we deny the opportunity of a person to be able to drive, it has a very serious and real impact. I do not know, and we need to find out more details as to why it is the government feels this is a necessary thing to be doing. Maybe it is the answer. It was interesting that not only does it do that, it also increases the fines. What is the primary purpose for increasing the fines? We know in Manitoba the government increased the fines on seat belts.

The number of users for seat belts did not go up. We know this government has an endless appetite for additional revenue coming into the province. To what degree is it to deal with that appetite? We have a government that has spent in excess of $2 billion more since it has taken office. It has got to be very close to a record in North America in terms of per capita increase. I would look to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) to indicate very clearly are there other jurisdictions in North America that have higher per capita increases.

It designates municipalities to be able to appoint a screening officer in dealing with specific by-law offences where an offence occurs, of course, typically within their jurisdiction. Mr. Speaker, it was not that long ago in which there was a question mark in terms of the government did something in regard to some tickets that were issued, and as a result of government incompetence, a lot of these tickets were thrown out. In most part, we see this particular aspect of the legislation as a positive thing.

We recognize there is a role for some of our municipalities to be able to take advantage of a change of this nature. So I think that, when we look at this overall as a piece of legislation, it is, in most part, good legislation, good legislation that deserves the oppor- tunity at the very least to go into the committee stage. But at the beginning when I was talking about the management and how the government manages bills through the process, this is where I would then have a bit of a problem. To what degree did the government, as an example, confer with the different municipalities?

Do they have the issue of the tickets that went astray? I believe it was about a year ago where a number of them were thrown out. Was that issue dealt with to the satisfaction of municipalities? To what degree is this going to be accepted by the municipalities? Is there going to be other legislation that is going to have to follow?

Quite often, what we have witnessed with this government is legislation that is brought in virtually at the last minute in expectation that opposition members will just buy hook, line, and sinker what it is the minister at the time is saying and allow that legislation to ultimately pass, because in such and such a rule it says that if a bill is introduced by such and such a time, everything has got to come to a question, whether or not members have had adequate time to debate the bill or consult, Mr. Speaker.

I think there is a very high need for us to be a little bit more serious with the way in which bills are coming forward. As I indicated, we have a lot riding on this particular bill and other justice issues

May 24, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2923 because by its passage the Minister of Justice is going to be going out there saying how tough he is. He is going to cite the types of bills he is passing. To what degree is the Minister of Justice actually missing the boat? To what degree is the Minister of Justice using legislation that he brings forward to give a false impression to Manitobans? To what degree is the Minister of Justice dealing with the real issues, some of those issues that I talked about? This is a bill dealing with the administration of our courts.

Well, there are other aspects to the administration, Mr. Speaker, that are equally, if not even more important. I see that my time has expired, so, with those few words, we are prepared to see it go to committee. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? An Honourable Member: Question. Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is second reading of Bill 36, The Courts Administration Improvement Act. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 30–The Manitoba Agricultural Services Corporation Act Mr.

Speaker: Bill 30, The Manitoba Agricultural Services Corporation Act, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Lakeside (Mr. Eichler). Is it the will of the House for it to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Lakeside? Stand? [Agreed] It is also standing in the name of the honourable Member for Ste. Rose (M r. Cummings), who has 24 minutes remaining. Stand? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: It has been denied. Mr.

David Faurschou (P ortage la Prairie): I appreciate the opportunity to rise and engage in debate on a very historic bill as I view it, Bill 30, which takes two very long-standing, very important entities in Manitoba agriculture and brings them together under one statute of this House. Mr. Speaker, Bill 30, as I said, is very substantive in that it is legislation that guides the merger of the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation and the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation. This merger is taking place through this legislation. I will say that I have been very supportive of the concept for a number of years.

In fact, I knew the previous chief executive officer of Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation, Mr. Brian Manning, very well. Mr. Brian Manning was supportive and did promote the advantages of having the two corporations under one roof providing those services out of one office, which I believe all of us as clients would appreciate. Mr. Manning was known to support this concept and, in fact, was hired by the Alberta government to travel out to Edmonton to oversee the merger of their credit corporation and their insurance corporation. It was done under his guise, very successfully I might add.

I do appreciate the legislation coming before the Chamber merging these two very important corporations. I will say that they have played a very vital role in agriculture here in the province of Manitoba. In 1960, the Agricultural Crop Insurance Corporation was founded. Right from the very beginning, our family was engaged with the crop insurance.

We were very supportive of the legislation coming forward, and do appreciate the Conservative administration for bringi ng forward the legislation that founded the Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation and that has provided a valuable service to agriculture here in the province of Manitoba.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-3-51
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 3rd hansardpdf 51.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	0d9cf5489eb6061f59c79c33ff31db01f467a4be

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