Volume 3 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 3rd. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 1974 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 7

February 11, 1974, Tape 146, Pagel -- apb The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! PETITIONS: !ffi.. SPE;_¥E:R....:.. The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy: HON. L.D.BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I request leave at this time to present a petition on behalf of the people of Parker's Cove in the District of Placentia West. Their petition is a request for a new water system. Mr.

Speaker, on meeting with them this wee~end, these people made it clear that they were satisfied with the money that they had received in the past year in an attempt to fix up the water system that they had carried over from the previous administration but finally it became apparent this winter,with waterlines freezing up again, that the existing system could not take any more patching and something had to be done. Mr. Speaker, I ask that this petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. ~.R. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bell Island: t!R. S.NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to support the petition on behalf of the residents of Parker's Cove in the District of Placentia West, to have their water system improved. Sir, I might suggest to the minister when he is discussing this with his colleagues, that it might be a good idea if the government took a good,hard look at a new technique that they are developing over in England for sewer systems for small communities. They are developing a sewerage system now for communities of thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred families and it seellis to be very successful.

I think this is one of the big problems that we have in Newfoundland~ in places like Parker's Cove, where it may not seem feasible at the moment to install water and sewerage. I think ~-!th this new technique that it will be possible to install water- and sewerage at the same time in these smaller coDUnunities. I also hope, Sir, that the people of Parker's Cove do get their improved water system this year. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Mines and Energy:

February 11, 1974, Tape 146 , Page 2 -- apb MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I have a further petition I would like to present on behalf of the people of Spanish Room anc! Rock Harbour in the District of Placentia West. Their petition is to the effect (it is lengthily worded) that they request that the four mile stretch of road leading from the Burin Peninsula Highway down through Spanish Room and on to RQck Harbour be upgraded and paved sometime in the near future.

Here I point out that in many communities, not just in Spanish Room and Rock Harbour but in other communities in my district, the workers in these communities do a lot of collll!luting from their homes in these communities to places of emploYJ11ent in Marystown, Burin and so on. .It would be a definite advan~ge to them if t .he roads were upgraded. Of course our government is aware of this and over the past several years ,as the tietition po.ints out, there has been over $50,000 allocated for this road but because it was in such poor condition that did not go very far. There are improvements here, Mr.

Speaker, and basically what these people are asking -is to see if we can speed up these up.grading moves as the budget allows. 488

F~bruary 11, 1974 Tape 147 IB-1 I ask that this petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of the petition presented to the House by the honourable member for Placentia West. I do so particularly as I know the road quite well, especially the road from Rock Harbour to Maeystown which is part of the road which the honourable member mentioned As I was once a resident of Rock Harbour for two years, I have walked this road many times. I believe the distance from Rock Harbour to Maeystown was, at that time, ten miles.

I think the road the gentleman is indicating right now is about four to five miles. Of course, it is a road that I was over, I think it ~,as last summer. I drove out over there and it is in very poor condition especially when you consider that these people from Rock Harbour and Spanish Room have to commute on a daily ~asis to Marystown. I think at least eighty per cent of the workers do because they find employment in the area of t-'arystown. So, we on this side of the House, Mr.

Speaker, gladly support this petition and we are quite sure that with the new DREE agreement this will enable the department to find money to have this undertaking carried out this year. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, before we do reports of standing and select committees - I am not ouite sure if this is in order but I think I will be pardoned if I went out of order in saying that we on our side would like to say how pleased we are to see the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations back with us in the House, hirsutely adorned as he is, that we genuinely welcome him hack and we look forward to having him participate in the debates and taking

part in the work of the House. I am sure the government do to. I am sure that they will be much the better because of his return to his desk. We are delighted to see him back. NOTICE OF MOTIONS: 'MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave of the House to move the following resolution seconded by 489

February 11, 1974 Tape 147 IB-2 my honourable friend the member for Bell Island:

WHEREAS serious questions have been raised in this honourable House concerning the circumstances surrounding the dissolution of the Thirty-Fifth General Assembly;

BE IT RESOLVED: That this House directs the government to appoint forthwith a commission of enquiry to investigate the circumstances surrounding the dissolution of the Thirty-Fifth General Assembly of the House of Assembly with particular reference to the role of ~r. William P.

Saunders, former member for the electoral district of Bay de Verde in connection with such dissolution and that all hearings of such commission of enquiry be ooen to the public and that such commission of enquiry be directed to report to the government without undue delay and that the report of such commission of enouiry to the government be tabled in this honourable House or released to the public at the earliest opportunity following its receipt by the government. MR. SPE.AKER: .I shall take the resolution under advisement and rule on it later. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: HON. LEO D.

BARRY (MINISTER OF MINES AND ENERGY): Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to question no. 391 asked by the honourable member for Bonavista North :in the last session,which I would like to file. The reply is fairly lengthly. I also have the answer .to question - MR. NEARY: A point of order. The questions on last year's Order Paper are finished now. They are over and done with, are they not? 1'-'R. BARRY: He does not want the information. That is fine. MR. NEARY: We wanted it a year ago. We do not want it now. MR. SPEAKER: The point of order raised by the honourable member for Bell Island is quite in order.

It is understood, I think, that all questions 01, the previous Order Papers die when prorogation takes place. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question, a rather 490

February 11, 197·4 Tape 14 7 IB- 3 urgent matter, to the Minister of Public W-0rks. Would the minister indlcate to the house what steps his department has taken to correct fire hazards 1n Confederation Building as reported by the fire commissioner late 111st fall?- MR. J.G. ROUSSEAU (mNISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS AND SERVICF.S): You will have to excuse my voice. It is still not very good. It will be about a week to ten .days before I get back at full force but at least it is there and it is better, thank God. 491

February 11, 1974 Tape no. 148 Page 1 - MW Thank you very much, first of all. if I may, for the kind words from across the House. I hope the same kind words would be passed along with such graciousness at the end of this session of the House. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROUSSEAU: It is equal to the perennial daily news question.

There was a study taken after the allegation made by the fire commissioner, Presently, the whole question of the fire safety and hazards that accompany it in the Confederation Building is a subject that is being studied by the Federal Bureau Management Committee and which is studying the need for expanded space in t~e Confederation Building area. That will be a part of the study. It is an on-going part of the study. Indeed we have had some preliminary reports that could be done. It is going to be done. It is not an easy job.

It is a job when you get roasted and I accept that, where you just do not do something and change a building around in a matter of months. It is being looked at. I can assure this honourable House that what can be done will be done. It is a subject of current discussion with the Bureau Management Committee, who are now studying the enlarged facilities at the Confederation Building site. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could I direct a question to the Hon. Premier? Would the Hon.

Premier indicate to the House whether it is the intention of his government to proceed with the construction of a new provincial building or extend Confederation Building. as was indicated two years ago by the Hon. Premier? MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker. I think probably that question would be more appropriate for the Order Paper. The reply is that no decisions have been made at this time. When they are, this House will be advised. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a aupplementary question: Would the Hon.

Premier indicate to the House if the leases that are being entered into with companies like Trizec are long-term leases or short-term leases, in view 492

February 11, 1974 Tape no. 148 of the fact that the government have not yet taken a decision to build a new building to expand Confederation Building? Page 2 MR. MOORES: _MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, at the present time there are no leases. Mr. Speaker,· I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Energy. Would the minister indicate to the House if the govemment have received a petition from residents of Central Newfoundland, conceming public hearings on a request by the Newfoundland Light and Power Company for a rate increase? If so, what does the government intend to do about this matter? HON~L.

D. BARRY (Minister of Mines and Energy): Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any petition having been received. It would be highly unusual for government to get involved in the hearing which is being held before an independent tribunal, the Public Utilities Board, in which hearing a decision has already been brought down,or did not the honourable member know? MR. NEARY: That is not the point, Mr. Speaker. The prayer of the petition asks to have the decision set aside until such time as proper publicity is given to the hearings. MR. SPEAKER: Order please'. The Hon. member for Bell Island seems to be making a speech.

I would request him to state his question. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I will ask the honourable minister if he is aware that the public hearings on this question were not publicized well enough in Central Newfoundland. This is why they are asking to have the new rates set aside. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, this is a government that operates according to law, not according to whim or capriciousness as past governments have.

By law a hearing is supposed to be publiaized and if this hearing were not publicized, then it is the right of any citizen to apply and to state that the hearing is not carried out pursuant to law. To my knowledge, I have not received any information that proper publicity was not given to these hearings. I have not received a copy of the 493

February ll, 1974 Tape no. 148 Page 3 petition to which the honourable member refers. I can only say that if the c:i.tizens of th.is C0111111uttity or any other cOIIIIDWlity feel that something is not being carried out by law, then they do not have to rely upon government interference in the hearings, an independent tribunal or government favoritism or patronage or anything else, they have rights in law,and this government will see that they are upheld. _MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not want to eause any undue stress or strain on the Hon. Minister of Manpower and Ind.ustrial Relations.

I wonder if the minister could inform the House if his department has received complaints frQIII the St. Lawrence Workers' Protectiv .e Union, charging Alcan, Newfluor, St. Lawrence with unfair labour practices. MR. SPEAKER: I think this is a question which could really be placed on the Order faper. It is not one that re4uires IUl immediate answer 494

February 11, 1974 Tape NO. 149 NM - 1 MR. P. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable the Premier. Could the Premier inform this House what percentage of the cost of gear lost by the fishermen on the northeast coast in 1973 will the government be paying? It is an urgent matter. They want to know right now. MR. F, MOORES, PREMIER: Mr. Speaker, I will take notice of the question. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Education on Wednesday promised to get an answer to my colleague the member for White Bay South in connection with DREE funds for schools, I wonder if the minister has the answer to that question now? HON. G. OTTENHEIMER, Minister of Education: The question was the government's policy with respect to DREE schools in general, that was the question. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I could remind,if I am allowed, I could read the question to the honourable Minister if he would give me leave to do so.

This is coming from the member for White Bay South; "I would like to direct a question Co the honourable Minister of Education: Would the minister inform the House whether he or any of his colleagues have entered into negotiations with Dree, any officials of the Department of Regional and Economic Expansion to have the specifications or standards of what is known as DREE schools lowered to the point where it becomes viable economically for this province to support and maintain the schools?" MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, I will answer that question and one related to it.asked I believe a day or two after it,with respect to DREE schools in general. The recent agreement signed between the provincial and federal government makes specific reference to human resource development. Part of the

preamble reads, ''Whereas the province wishes to develop its human resources to their fullest potential in a manner which will allow the people of Newfoundland to develop their 495

February 11, 1974 Tape NO. 149 NM - 2 personal excellence within the framework of the distinctive quality of life in Newfoundland .•• " There was explicit reference to human resource development in that agreement. The agreement emphasizes the need for economic and socio-economic development through the indentification and implementation of development opportunities. It appears that the emphasis is for the preparation of persons for anticipated job opportunities.

In othe words, within the agreement and the wording of the agreement, certainly there is an emphasis in hurean resource development in the areas of vocational, technical, in which I include fisheries education. Now with respect to the day-school system, there is no specific reference in the general agreement to the day.school system. The agreement is of course for a ten year period and is open for review or amendment on a yearly basis.

The information which the department now has would establish that not only ir, terms of capital costs, in terms of construction, but in terms of operatin~ costs which are on a continuing basis. !he cost not only to government but to school boards is very considerably more for these schools than for other modern schools built outside the programme. There is no evidence to indicate that the quality of education in the DREE schools is any better than the quality of education in the new and excellent schools, but less costly in terms of construction and in terms of operation.

That there is any correlation between the increased costs both in capital and in continuing expenses and operation expenses, there is no evidence to indicate that. We are therefore reviewing the whole area in terms of day schools with respect to the DREE agreement and in the light of that review and in the light of the information we shall have which schools which were agreed to in the amendment of last year. When that data is finalized, then we shall be in a much better position when a review or an opportunity for amendment comes up in a year's tillle to 496

February 11, 1974 Tape NO. 149 NM - 3 see what the position is there. We intend now, at present, to push for 49/

February 11, 1974 Tape 150 PK - 1 federal provincial co-operation in the area of vocational and technicial and fisheries education, When the opportunity comes up in a year's time,then we will know. In light of the schools agreed to last year which are not yet constructed,we will be in a much better position to see whether that disparity and costs not only the one shot capital cost but the continuing year after year operational costs whether that is justified. MR, ROWE (F.B.): Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

So the minister is saying that he does have that and he does have proof and evidence suggesting that the maintenance cost and construction cost of the DRF.E schools are much higher than that for day schools, Is that correct? A further supplementary question. Is the minister prepared to table such data and proof, Mr. Speaker? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I am certainly willing to make it available in the House. It can be either tabled or it can be brought up and discussed during the estimates of the department. I am certainly willing to make it available to the House,no doubt, MR, ROWE (F.B,): Mr.

Speaker, a further question to the Hon. the Premier. According to Standing Rules on page 22, Your Honour, I refer you to it. "That the facts on which a question is based may be briefly set out - provided the member ~o doing makes himself responsible for their accuracy-" It was my understanding in answer to a question, Sir, last Thursday, that the Premier indicated that no DREE T110ney would be sought for educational purposes, which seems a contradiction to the ~inister of Education's answer to a question on the day before. Could he qualify that please? MR. MOORES: I am sorry that the honourable the member for St.

Barbe North did not - I realiz~d at that time I was talking about it in the true academic sense as we have known it. As the Minister of Education has hopefully explained it to his satisfaction, he now krows the difference of the two emphases that we as a government have taken regarding the DREE expenditures. 498

February 11, 1974 Tape 150 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works and Services. I would like to ask the minister if his colleague, the President of the Council, has given him any information regarding his taking notice of a number of questions concerning Mount Scio House that were raised in the House last week and the minister undertook to get the answers to these questions. If the minister does not have the answers would he undertake to get them as soon as possible? MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr.

Speaker, I gave an undertaking last year and I understand that the word of a member of this House iR behind it. I said during the four-day sitting last year that when the information was available, that any participation of my department in Mount Scio Road would be made available to the House. I made that to the honourable Leader of the Opposition. I made that to the honourable member for Bell Island. The Premier also made that same statement. And I can assure the gentleman that when the information is available it will be made available. MR.

NEARY: Mr, Speaker, the honourable minister would have no way of knowing that the matter came up last week in the House. A number of questions were put to the Acting Minister of Public Works who said that he would get the information and bring it back to the House this week. So I know the honourable minister does not know them. MR.

ROUSSEAU: I stand again and say that when there is information available, I have made an undertaking as a member of this House, I would hope that my word is satisfaction that when there is information that I feel is necessary for the House, if there is some information that has some depth in it, one tt-.at has some depth into it or something that I can prepare then certainly it will be done. Right now I am not in the position to release any information because I do not have any. I would caution members that possibly they are building up their hopes too much on what might be available. MR. MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, regarding to the question last week I understand even though I was not here at the time that the Acting Minister 499

February 11, 1974 Tape 150 PK - 3 of Public Works at the time said that - when I returned to the Bouse that the question would be asked. It will be answered in detai l very sho rtl y but as it stands right now, Mr. Speaker, I undertook to say what the cond'itions would be as I unde rst ood them . I do think it is of great public interest but I do not think it is a matter for this House but I will gladly furnish that information.

The fact is that the house is being rented to me by 1-lemorial University, the Administration of Memorial, at a unt of $500. per month, unfurnished plus $140 for light and heat, for a total of $640 per month for the unfurnished house. The Department of Public Works - the honou r able the member for White Bay South said his cost that,so I am delighted. I hope they are in the sAme name. Mr. Sneaker, having said that the Department of Public Works 500

February 11, 1974. Taoe 151 RH - l will not be bearinP- any east, renovations to the house. The university are payinP- normal costs and anything over and above the refurbishing of the house itself ts for my personal account. They are paying the normal cost as they do for any other building under their auspices and I am sure the information is available from the President of the University, upon request. But there is no payment of public funds from Public Works whatsoever.

Regarding my position, I offered the university to actually buy the house at an appraised value, with an option to re-buy it back at the same cost, over a five year period. They saw fit not to accept that offer. When the total detail comes forward and I have it, Mr. Speaker, I will be glad to make it available to the House, as I will at that time, if this is going to be a personal session, a great deal of other things that affect possibly a few people who do not want to be affected. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary ouestion to the Hon. the Premier: The President of the Council indicated that the Public Works workers were doing the renovations at Mount Scio house and the Premier now more or less contradicted that and said that the Memorial University were at least paying for the renovations. I wonder if the Premier could clarify that a little further because - MR_MOORES: A great many of the Memorial University buildings are the property of. the governmnet, Mr. Speaker.

I understand and I will get the detail on this, that there are people from Public Works doing work on behalf of the university but it is the repainting of the place when it was vacated after the years of occupancy and the university is paying the cost of it and not the Department of Public Works for that function, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question: Could the Hon. Premier then inform the House as to what the estimated cost of these renovations are going to be? 501

February 11, 1974. Tape 151 RH - 2 MR. MOORES: I have no idea, Mr. Speaker, but I am sure the univer- sity has that information and if the honourable member from Bell Island approaches the administration he will get it the same as any other information about the university. It seems because I happen to be the occupant of that house, Mr. Speak.er, that the honourable member has a very real interest in it. I think it is typical of the personal approach that the Opposition have taken for a long, long while.

I think it is typical of political expediency, the honourable member from Bell Island particularly and I do not think, Sir, we can in the future expect any better than we did in the first, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, may I remind the Premier that it is the taxpayers money that is involved in this house. MR. MOORES: Where? Where? MR. NEARY: The taxpayers of this Province are paying for the reno- vations. Mr, Speaker, two further supplementary questions for the Hon. Premier rising out of his answer:

(1) Would the Premier indicate to the House if snow-clearing, security and gardening are involved in that $140.00 a month, heating and lighting and so forth?

(2) Would the Premier also indicate to the House if the lease is a long term one or a short term one, is it a regular lease? MR. MOORES: The lease is a regular lease, ~r. Speaker, month to month. MR. NEARY: ~.onth to month, that is good. MR. MOORES: That is the same as an ordinary lease, yes. MR. NEARY:. That is good. MR. MOORES: The snow-clearing and gardening, Mr. Speaker, is not in the accounts that I provided. As a matter of fact I am not even sure; the grounds and the area, I think is a Pippy Park responsibility, I am not sure about that, but if it is my responsibility I shall look after it, and I hope the member from Bell Island does the same thing with his own funds. 502

Februaey 11, 1974. T~pe 151 RH - 3 MR. NEARY: I do. I do, I look after mine quite well with my own funds, not with the taxpayers money, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order. please! MR. MOORES: Who pays him? The tax • • • • (inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I have noted in the past, - Order, please! Order, rlease!

I have noted that in the past few days that when in the position held by me, when the Speaker calls order several members on both sides of the House insist on making cOllilllents and speak!~ after I have done that, I am sure that they are aware that they are not suppose, not allowed by the rules to do that and in futur;e I ask tbem to adhere to this p.articular rule, otherwise they shall have to be ruled out of order and maybe further action t.aken. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR, SPEAKER: The honourable Leader of the Opposition adjourned the debate last night, 503

February 11, 1974, Tape 152, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: -------- Mr. Speaker, let me say what a pleasure it is to carry on again in this. I have only a few more points I wish to make in this initial round of the debate. I am anxious to get them done in a hurry because my colleagues tell me that the speaker who is to follow me is the gentleman from St. John's East, the House Leader and I am looking forward to that. I gather from no less than two of my colleagues that the gentleman is building a very strong personal attack upon me and I am,naturally, most anxious to hear this.

Apparently he has something up his sleeve that is of the utmost embarrassment. One of my colleagues in fact told me that it was even worse than last year. I quiver, I am shivering in my boots, I have my resignation written out, almost like Hr. Saunders had his written out and I am really anticipating with great delight the contribution from the gentleman from St. John's East. He will have to bear with me for a little while, }Ir. Speaker, because there are still one or two preliminary points I want to make with respect to this Throne Speech, the debate on the Address in Reply. If the gentleman from St.

John's East would comtain himself and restrain himself he will have his day and he will have the same opportunity to speak as does any other honourable member. I say to him now that I will not be able to hear him if he speaks tomorrow because I, sometime ago, made an arrangement to go to the West Coast tomorrow. Perhaps he could wait until Thursday because I would very much like the pleasure of hearing his comtribution. It will be the first contribution he has ever made to a debate in this House. It will be very worthwhile and I would anxiously anticipate it and very much look forward to it.

I am particularly interested in this embarrassing personal revelation and I anticipate this with great eagerness. I may add, for his delectation as well, that since he attacked my father last year, my father will be away. He is leaving Newfoundland, I believe, tomorrow,for about a month,so perhaps the honourable gentleman could hurry and get his attack in before my father is gone away and cannot even speak in his own defence• 504

February 11, 1974, Tape 152, Page 2 -- apb MR. CROSBIE: Get on with the speech. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, MR. W.N.ROWE: What is wrong with old "Crusty?" MR. CROSBIE: I have not even spoken yet and he is getting on with all this foolishness. (Remainder inaudible) MR. ROBERTS: That is fine: He has already distinguished himself in this line and I am merely saying that I hope he will get on with it. I am eagerly anticipating his contribution. Now, Sir, let me also say that I am most disappointed but not surprised by the lack of response (including the gentleman from St.

John's West, who as always could not restrain the urge to say a few hundred ill~chosen words) the lack of response to my quite serious invitation that the government institute an enquiry into the somewhat mysterious events surrounding the resignation of the former member for Bay de Verde, Mr. William P. Saunders. AN HON. ME}IBER: The honourable member is living in the past. AN HON. MEMBER: Paranoid. MR. ROBERTS: One says that I am living in the past, another says: "Paranoid," I do not think either of those is true.

I think what I am beginning, Sir, in m~ naivety to feel is that we may be on the verge of seeing a group of men trying to hide something. If they do not - they can laugh and they can jeer and they can say whatever they want, they can smirk and they can do as they wish but every honourable gentleman opposite, Mr. Speaker, will have to decide for himself whether on the facts that I presented the other day there is a case for enquiry. The people of Newfoundland have made up their minds.

I do not think there is any doubt, any doubt at all that all the people of this province, and the speech was quite well reported, are anxious to see the matter gone into because they feel that on the facts presented, not one of which has been rebutted to any degree by any man, be it Mr. Saunders himself who I gather has declined to make any comment on the mysterious events or any honourable gentleman opposite, not one of these facts has been rebutted, not one bas even been 505

February 11, 1974, Tape 152, Page 3 - apb ouestioned. I would submit, Sir, that the people of N~foundland expect an enquiry, an impartial, a public and a full one. If they do not get it every honourable ~entleman ooposite will have to answer to his own conscience. He will have the opportunity as well Sir, I assure you, at some point, to record his vote on that so it will stand as a matter of record whether honourable gentlemen opposite were for or against an impartial and an independent investigation. I say now, Mr. Speaker, that if this government do not investigate this matter then they are guilty of trying to hide something and the people of Newfoundland will judg e them accordingly. 506

February 11, 1974 Tape no, 153 NM - 1 I hope that they will set up an investigation and if they have nothing to fear they will do it. If they do not do it, Sir, it follows that they must have something to fear, someone, some, many, some,all have something to fear. Each of them can judge for himself, Sir. Every honourable member opposite is in the same position as every honourable member on this side and that is that he must answer to himself and to his constituents for what he does. There is no such thing as a secret session in the parliamentary system.

The only times they have every been used are during war­ time. There is no such thing as a secret session. There is no such thing as a secret vote. Honourable gentlemen opposite, whether it be on the resolution proposed today or notice which was given today by my friend and colleague the gentleman from White Bay South, honourable gentlemen opposite will have the opportunity to stand in their place at the appropriate time and record and "aye" or a "nay' ' as to whether or not they want this matter investigated. I have no doubt the people of Newfoundland want it investigated.

Inrleed I think the people of Newfoundland have probably largely made up their mind as to what happened. I suspect they made up their minds long before I raised the matter. Now that it is raised again I think they would like to know the truth, so would I, AN HON. MEMBER: The Minister of Finance does not want it investigated. MR, NEARY: Why I wonder? MR. ROBERTS: The Minister of Finance will have to answer for himself as best he can.

I find it amusing though, Mr, Speaker, in an ironical way, the gentlemen opposite who are such relentless - "Witch Hunt Willie"for example as one of the gentlemen oppo,;ite is sometimes referred to, the gentlemen opposite who are such relentless probers into alleged and perhaps actual misdeeds of the past, be it last week, last month or twenty-three years ago, are not quite as tender when it comes to investigating events of a year past or a year and a half past. Well, Sir, the truth is the truth and wrong is wrong and it 507

February 11, 1974 Tape No. 153 NM - 2 does not matter what point in time it occurred, it should be exposed and it should be dealt with. Honourable gentlemen opposite will have to answer if they do not deal with it. I invite them to deal with it and to deal with it honourably and to deal with it as men and the only honourable way to deal with this, Sir, is to appoint an independent enquiry, a cooonissioner under the act, and to have out the facts and get out the facts. I have more infonnation that I would gladly give to any commissioner.

I do not wish to bring it up in the House because it is highly prejudicial but I would gladly give it to an impartial COIIDllissioner appointed to enquire into the matter and with the authority to supoena such things as bank records, such things as income tax records witnin whatever limits are prescribed by law, to look into all of the events. I would gladly give this information, Mr. Speaker, to a judge of the Supreme Court or some such person appointed to look into it and he could then deal with it as he saw proper and saw fit. Mr.

Speaker, I do not want to bring it out now even thought I am protected by the parliamentary privilege because to do so would be unfair. Much of the information I have of necessity of that type, this later type information, falls into the category of hearsay or second hand evidence but, as I say, it would certainly be the sort of thing a Royal Commission could go into. Certainly it is at least as substantial as any evidence presented initially to the honourable Mr. O'Dea when he had his Royal CoIIDllission, the one we used to hear so much about but have not heard of recently. MR.

NEARY: Nor the Ruth Thompson Enquiry. MR. ROBERTS: Well the Ruth Thompson Enquiry was hearsay in most cases MR. WM. ROWE: And violation of privilege in others. MR. ROBERTS: But anyway, Mr, Speaker, I do not propose to go on with that. There will be other opportunities in this session and if the government do not deal with it, if they do not do the honourable thing, if they 508

February 11, 1974 Tape NO, 153 NM - 3 do not appear to be men who seek the truth , and who do not fear the truth, then there will be other opportunities here and in other places to deal with it. Let me say a few words now, Sir, about the question of the flag and I am glad that the Minister of Tourism is in his seat, because he is the gentleman who has sinned so greviously when it comes to the questions of a flag for this province. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am as prepared as the next man to welcome a new flag for this province. It is not a question of havinr. a flag as Mr.

Albert Perlin has told us a number of times in conunents in "Wayfarer", the column which he writes in "The raily News" and has been writing I think for more than fifty years. We have a national flag in Newfoundland. We have had one for some time. The legislation which the honourable gentleman in due course will bring in, the Minister of Tourism, I assume and suspect will have to include an amendment to or a removal of the present legislation, in addition to legislation establishing the new flag. I welcome it. I am prepared to say it is a good thing. I am prepared to say we should have such a flag in Newfoundland.

I do not think it matters a hoot when compared to the problems of Newfoundland. It is going to do nothing to find jobs for those 27,000 people who are out of work. r"t is going to do nothing to give us roads and pavement down in Placentia West. It is going to do nothing to give us water and sewer systems. It is going to do nothing to help to house those who do not have good housing. It is going to do nothing to help the school boarda that are on the verge of bankruptcy. It is going to do damn little for damn all, if the truth were known. The fact remains, Mr.

Speaker, the government have chosen to make it a priority. It is one of the biggest things they have accomplished and so we must deal with it on that ground. Mr. Speaker, if we must deal with it, I very genuinely regret and in this I am as at least as sincere as the Minister of Justice is when he tells us how sincere he is. I quite genuinely regret, I am quite sincere, I am oozing it, the way the minister oozeBo 509

February 11, 1974 Tape No. 153 NM - 4 MR. HICKMAN: I watched you ooze on Friday. MR. ROBERTS: The honourable gentleman had reason to watch me ooze on Friday and I would like nothing better than to see him ooze. his signature onto a commission to one of Her Majesty's judges. Nothing would impress me more. If the honourable gentleman is as honest as I believe him to be, and is half the man that many people claim him to be, then he will sign that document. MR. NEARY: Or be guilty by association. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, the fla~ should not be a partisan political issue and I fear that the present Minister of Tourism is doing his very best to make it a partisan issue whether he is doing it intentionally and knowingly or deliberately or not. His course of action throughout has been most unfortunate and I stand here today to appeal to him not to make it a partisan issue, not to allow it to become a political issue. We saw that across Canada. Mr. Pierson made what I believe to be the tactical error of unveiling a flag design outside the House. The Heavens fell - in.

The Tory Party of Ottawa, of Canada,spent months filibustering in the House of Commons; for months the whole business of Canada was held up while the great flag debate went on and eventually a select committee was appointed. The Chairman was a Newfoundland member of Parliament, Mr. Herman Batton, who was then the member for Humber ' St. George and St.

Barbe and the select committee comprising representatives of all parties in the House of Commons, sifted through I do not know several hundred designs and eventually made a recommendation, which recommendation was accepted unanimously; unanimously by the committee I believe, it certainly was not by the House of Commons. I do not think Mr. Diefendbaker has accepted it even yet. Maybe some of his party are with him on that point; and it has become a Canadian Flag. I think that is what we should do in Newfoundland.

I think it is most unfortunate that the Minister of Tourism, who can be pardoned because he does not know much about parlaimentary procedure,and I do not 510

February 11, 1974 Tape No. 153 NM - 5 think he has much of a feel for the House of.Assembly and for the traditions it represents.I think it is most unfortunate that he should chose to unveil this flag and try to make it a partisan issue.

He made the initial mistake of announcing it will be pushed through the House and I expect any day now to see the National Flag Act, whatever it is to be called, the Newfoundland Flag Act, to come bustling into the House and be trundled along through the Order Paper as quickly as possible, so that on midnight on March 31, the minster can unveil it or whatever you do with a flag, unfurl it. I think that is wrong. I would like very much to see,if we are to have a flag, and it is not my decision to have a flag, if I wereleading a government, the flag would not be high on our priorities.

It has nothing to do with feeding people who are hungry or helping the school boards or doing anything about unemployment or doing anything about the cost of living or doing anything about the hundrds of things that need to be dealt with in this country today.

I would like to see a select committee set up, instead of the government bringing in a design which by its nature will be partisan, and I may add a design which judging from the letters in the press has won far less favour than it has condemnation and because the letters to the press have been more against it than for it. though the minister shakes his head. Maybe he has some high-price staff mem~er keeping track of them.I do not. The letters, as I read them, have been far more against the flag design than for it.

What he should do is bring it in, bring in a motion to set up a committee, give them a deadline so we will not bog down and be here in July talking about what is to be the flag, give them a period of weeks. Any interested people can, make submissions. The school children on Bell Island who sent in those two little designs last week could send in their designs and perhaps every school child in Newfoundland could and then let the committee decide, Now the minister shakes his head - he has made up his mind. AN HON. MEMBER: I change my mind every day. 511

February 11, 1974 Tape No. 153 NM - 6 MR. ROBERTS: Yes, the honourable gentleman changes his mind every day. He has made public his design. He is getting designs every day. Well if they really want, Mr. Speaker, to involve 512

February 11, 1974 Tape 154 IB-1 the people of Newfoundland in this twenty-fifth anniversary celebration. Let them be open minded and let them say to the people of Newfoundland, if you want a flag or we tell you you are going to have a flag, tell us what the design should be and let us see what comes in. Maybe the design the honourable gentleman trumpeted a fortnight or so ago will become the design. I do not know. ~ayhe it is th~ best.

It is going to look like a dirty flour sack, I fear, when that white flap is hung and gets a little weather on it. l''ayhe it will be or mayhe it will not be but that is not the point. The point is that a ~ymbol that should be above politics, that should be like the Crown and the Throne itself, above the day- to - day partisan debate, it is going to become a very partisan issue because the Minister of Tourism and the administration have made it such because they are treating it as of a Tory device instead of a Newfoundland devtce. It should not be Tory and it should not be Liberal.

It should not be New nemocratic Party • It should not be anything except a Newfoundland contest. If the minister were really being intelligent, he would get a panel of outside people to advise on it and to judge on it instead of whatever process went on. Whether it was he and the Premier or whether it was the minister alone or whether he drew straws or whether he thr~, them out of the eighth floor and the one that landed last got the prize it does not matter. Whatever process he got to come up with the desi~n, he did. I think it is wronp;.

All I can do now at this stage is stand here and say that I appeal to the government and to the minister. _It may be the only thing he achieves in four years. ~en have done less, One of the things that Lester Pearson did for Canada was to give us a flag. John Diefenbaker did less in five years as Prime Minister than that. I do not think it is an unworthy achievement. It may be the Minister of Tourism's only achievement during his only term of office. Fine! Let it be the achievement 1t should be. Let it be an noble act, an nonpartisan act, a Newfoundland act. Let it involve all of the people of Newfoundland.

Let it not become the subject of oartisan debate. That is what it must 513

February 11, 1974 Tape 154 IB-2 become if it is treated the way it is proposed to treat it now. The minister has made some mistakes,in my judgement. He has made some mistakes but they are not irretrievable. I think he has made them from good motives. I do not think he set out to make it a Tory design hut the danger is there and I appeal to him now to hac~ off and to announce that - maybe what he should say is that this is what the government were going to do all along. We would have to believt that.

We would accept that, that they intend to have a select committee or they intend to have a panel of outside people who will invite desii;,;ns from all over the province. Mavbe they will get some perfectly horrible ones. Maybe they will get same better ones. I do not think the design that we have now been given is particularlv good from any point of view. The Knights of Columbus have opposed it, I believe and written a very strong letter. "IR. MURPHY: Inaudible. "'IR. W. ROWE: What is the matter with him? MR. RORERTS: Mr. Speaker, why shou]d I not be concerned ahout them. They have written to me.

The honourable gentleman thinks because I am a Protestant I have no concern for the Knights of Columbus. I had a letter today from the Rishop of St. George's, nossibly the same letter as every honourable member. His F.xcellency, Rishop McGrath sent me a letter. Should I send it back to hiD' and say, "Dear Bishop, Ank ~urphy says since I am a Protestant I cannot talk to you." Do not be so stund "Ank". Even for you, that is beneath contempt. The Knights of ColuD'bus, Mr.

Speaker, were worried that this proposed design did not adequately reflect Newfoundland and Newfoundland's heritage, particularly the Irish Heritage. It should be of concern to a man with the name of Doyle which is not an old middle European name, But the Irish are an important element in our ethnic heritage, our heritage of the people, Perhaps they do not feel the Union Jack adequately represents their interests. I know many Irishmen who do not feel that the Union Jack represents their interests. J know many Newfoundlanders who feel the Union Jack does represent their interests. 514

February 11, 1974 Tape 154 IB-3 There are many, I am sure, who feel that they would like to see some­ thing in addition to it, besides that. So, I make the suggestion genuinely and posit:l .veJy. I put it forward in the hope that it will receive consideration. I think the minister would like this to be a proud monument to his name and that is a worthy ambit:!.on. I think he is genuinely concerned with trvinp; to make it not something that becomes a partisan rag that is regarded by people of all narties as beinr, identifiecl with one narty. Mr. Pearson nearly fell into that trap.

Nearly but did not - he pulled hack. We had the committee and out of that I think we got a better des·ign. I think the red maple leaf with the two red bars is a far hetter flag to look at as a piece of design than would have been the original flag which, as the minister recalls, was two blue bars with a read maple leaf parked in between. So, let him invite suggestions and let him turn over. If he does not want to tum over to the committee of the House, let us get three or four people who have an eye for colour and an eye for desir.n and an eye for ou~ history and let them advise the committee.

I would like to see the selection made by a selec:t committee of thi.s House and I think perhaps it could be and I hope it could be a unanimous selection, not a political one, not Liherals verus Tories. I put that forth genuinely. I do not think it is the most important question confronting Newfoundland torlay but if we are to deal with it, then that is the way, in my view, we should deal with it. I urge the minister and I ask him to consider that and t~ discuss it with the appropriate people and possibly it is what the government had already made up their minrl to do.

If he is being a smart politician and they decide to do it, he will say that we had already made up our mind that that was that and we will do it that way. "It is what we had in mind all along •11 Yes, I think that is enough on that. Mr. Speaker, let me, at the · risk of raising the awesome ire and wrath of the Minister of Finance and even the Premier, say a few words about the energy issue. By the way, I have finally seen a letter, a 515

February 11, 1974 Tape 154 IB-4 public voice raise~ in defence of the government's position. Friday's edition of the "Daily News" had in it, next to the funny section, next to the comics, a letter from a gentleman who snoke in defence of the government's position, a gentleman named Mr. Claude Dawe, a ~entleman of considerable position in the community, a man of some substance and standing, a man who has taken a firm partisan stand. I believe he was the unsuccessful candidate for the Tory nomination in Port de Grave. I am not sure if he was anti-confederate or nro-confederate. He may have been pro-confederate.

If Claude nal.•e was, he has fallen away s:f.nce then. He and ~r. Smallwood had quite a falling out. I have never heard the rights of both sides but I could tell one side but it would be hip;hly scandalous and so I shall not. 'MR. NEARY: Well, do not go too hard on him now because he is holding mv mortgage on mv house. MR. ROBERTS: Well, there is a conflict of interest involving the gentleman from Bell Island, Mr. Sneaker, on this matter because his mortgage apparently is held by the company with which Mr. nawe is associated. Mr. Dawe has raised his voice in defence. Tt is a lukewarm defence. He claims that ~r.

Smallwood would have <lone the same thing. Claims, mind you. I am not so sure now if the Minister of Finance will not go and rewrite all those position papers on the sense of that. MR. CRLSBlE: Mr. Smallwood would never have thought of it. He was never prepared for these meetings in Ottawa. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Smallwood was never prepared for these meetings in Ottawa? Well, if he was not prepared I would take a thousand of his nonpreparations to the stand put on by the Minister of Finance and the Premier and whoever was in Ottawa last week. If that he preparation, then God gra~t us unpreparation AN HONCURABLF.

ME!>'BER: Who was it? MR. ROBERTS: I do not know who was up there. '-fR. NEARY: I know a couple of the civil servants that were up there from other parts of the province that had no connection with anything. 516

February 11, 1974 Tape 154 IB-5 MR. ROBERTS: Well, that was just a free ride. The airplane was going anyway. When we get the list of passengers on the airplane we will know. MR. NEARY : What were the drug clerks doing up on an energy conference? MR. ROBERTS: Who knows. Maybe providing energy pep pills to the delegation. Mr. Speaker, I wanted to make that statement because I had sair'! on Friday - I had not seen the "llaily News" at that point - that no voice had been raised anywhere in this province ~ubl1cally in Jefence of the government's energy position.

Well, one has been raised publicalJy and it is Mr, Claude Dawe. ~r. Dawe is a man who speaks on his Ola"ll merit. He signed his letter. He put his name to it. lie is a frequent correspondent in the papers. AN HONOllRABLE ~'E~~ER: He lacks political sanction. MR, ROBERTS: Well, he must lack political sanction, he could not even win a nomination. He had a bit of an unsuccessful trv for the council here. I think he came about fifteenth or twentieth and onlv, of course. eight candidates were elected. Anyway, he did raise his voice. Let it be recor~ed that on one side is Mr.

Claude Dawe and the ~overnment and on the other side there is everybody else in Newfoundland. Now, Mr. Speaker, the energy conference, as it developed, djrl not become an energy conference. It may have started out as one. I am not sure of that but it certainly did not end as one. It ende~ as a constitutional conference, as a conference that was going ri~ht to the heart - Mr.

Speaker, I do not resent for a moment the Premier conferring with h:1.s colleague hut could he either confer more quietly or outside the House because the Premier's voice is a very good one I am pleased to say and really maybe my ears are too good but I can hear every word. If the Minister of Health needs direction on some point, could he seek it elsewhere, Mr. Speaker, the energy conference became a constitutional question 517

February 11, 1974 Tape 155 PK - 1 a conference that was really debating one of the "gut" issues of Confederation, the federal/provincial relations as we know them in this province. I think the position our province took was wrong and was contrary to the best interests of Newfoundland. I know what the Minister of Finance is going to say. I can hear his speech now. As a matter of fact if I were sufficiently hipped up I could probably duplicate his speech in some mean and poor way.

I could see him being very grandiloquent and talk of handouts and beggars and then his intellectual baggage boy, the Minister of Energy.will carry the same argument out. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: I thought that was not bad by. the way "John". I thought it was very accurate as well. MR. ROBERTS: Will carry it out and I can hear it now. I have heard them already that we somehow want - MR. CROSBIE: The honourable member has heard nothing yet. MR. ROBERTS: I can believe I have heard nothing yet.

That we are going to Ottawa on bended knee and that we should beg from Ottawa - one can hear all the charges being rung right from point A to point Zand back again. Well I will have to put up with that, just as I will have to put up with the continued references to offshore rights as if they somehow were relevant to the conference. There was no question of ownership. The Premier delivered himself of a great statement written for him on offshore rights. MR. ROWE (W.N.): And underwhelmed everyone. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, that is a good phrase "underwhelmed" the entire conference. It was never an issue.

Whether we own the oil or not has noth­ ing to do with the Ottawa conference. It may have a great deal to do with the Government of Canada. The government are quite properly, in my view, pursuing this matter outside. I am glad they are now going to try and settle it by negotiations because I fear for us if we go to the courts. I think our case may not be as strong as it is sometimes painted. 518

February 11, 1974 . Tape 155 PK - 2 Also, I do not think the Supreme Court would be biased, I think they would render- the best judgment they could. There are nine men or however men here hear it. But having read the British Columbia reference.I feel that there is a policy decision. It is a policy decision on offshore mineral resources,does not favour the provincial stand as opposed to the federal stand. I would commend that to the Premier as a thought when he helps to shape our strateir But in any event, Sir, the question of offshore resources was at best an oily herring.

It was not an issue before the conference. The one issue before the conference as I followed the meeting and read about them, the one specific issue was, could Ot_tawa tax exports? The Premier gets very uptight about that. He has been going around making speeches saying they can tax our lumber and tax our fish and so forth. Well I do not pretend to be a constitutional expert, Sir, as I read the RNA Act Ottawa has the power to tax all exports b~cause trade is a matter falling within the Government of Canada. If they had the right before they have it now and vice-versa, if they did not, they do not.

I would suggest though,if the Premier thinks they do not, he will refer the matter or have a test case taken to the Supreme Courts. They are the people who will decide legal questions. If Mr. Lougheed does not feel that they have the right to tax exports,then Mr. Lougheed could go to the Supreme Court - I do not quite know what the Premier of Newfoundland is doing in political bed with the Premier of Alberta. In any event, Sir, we also saw an attempt to drag in the question of cost of transmission.

The Government of Canada~as I understand it from their public statements,have a well defined policy of sharing in the cost of transmission facilities. There are numerous precedents. There is the Beechwood Development precedent in New Brunswick, indeed in Newfoundland the Bay D'Espoir would not have been possible, the Bay D'Espoir Hydro system and the generating and transmission facilities are a part of it, had it not been for a grant of $20 millions and a further $4 million which came later for a conversion from fifty ·cycles 519'

February 11, 1974 Tape 155 PK - 3 to sixty cycles. That money came from Ottawa and that is what made it possible. Mr. Speaker, I do think we should have a quorum call please, AN HON. MEMBER: Terrible. Terrible. MR. SPEAKER: Would the Clerk count the House please? There is a quorum. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I am relieved to know that my count was wrong. Mr. Speaker, do I have the right to be - MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ROBERTS: Sir, there was a much larger issue raised at Ottawa, a much larger issue than transmission costs or offshore resources or ownership of oil even if those things had come up.

The issue that was raised at Ottawa was the question of what kind of Canada we want to see as between the -( Mr. Speaker, if the gentleman for Harbour Grace cannot be polite.at least he could be silent). Mr. Speaker, the issue raised at Ottawa was the issue of what kind of government we wish to see at Ottawa, with what kind of resources and what kind of powers as against what kind of governments we want to see in the provinces, with what types of financial resources and what types of powers to implement their policies. This administration, Sir, have taken a direct anti-federal-government stand.

They have done it consistently. deliberate,studied~intentioned policy. They have done it as a matter of I say it is wrong and I say it is against the best interest of Newfoundland. The obverse of that is not as they will claim.What they will tell you was a begging attitud~ to Ottawa was not an approach of handout; That is not the answer. They will attempt to say that is my position,but that merely shows the intellectual desperation and the lack of depth in their position.

Sir, this government, the Tory Government,have taken as a matter of studied policy,since they became the government they have taken two stands with relation to Ottawa both of them strongly and each of them directly contradicting the other. On the one hand they have their hands out. I hear the Minister of Justice saying he wants Ottawa to build 520

February 11, 1974 Tape 155 PK - 4 penitentiaries. I hear the Minister of Education saying, he used to say, he wanted Ottawa to help and build schools. The Minister of Tourism even wants Ottawa to finance the Twenieth-Fifth Celebrations and tells us we cannot say what it is going to cost because we do not know what Ottawa is going to cost. He made that statement in his very own voice. The Minister of Finance goes on and on about how he wants more money from Ottawa for this or for that. The Premier wants money from Ottawa for transmission on the Lower Churchill.

The Minister of Industrial Development wants money.· The Minister of Social Services wants money, They all want money from Ottawa. Well and good. To hear this crowd talk the Government of the Province does nothing. Any ill that arises, Sir, should be solved by Ottawa. Any ill! They do not do anything. All they do is ~oint out. be it something as simple as the Administration of Justice which is clearly within the British North America Act and that might not be the best constitution in the world, Mr.

Speaker, but it has lasted for 107 years now, not too bad, There are not all that many constitutions that are that much older or were that much better. The Minister of Justice wants Ottawa to build our courtrooms for us and wants neKt to pay the magistrates and the staff in the courtroom~. What the devil are we going to end up with? Why are we going to have a Justice Department here?

The Minister of Justice anytime a problem is raised goes, his instinctive response, he cannot get anywhere with his colleagues, he cannot persuade this administration that any money should be put aside for the administration of justice for discharging that responsible of this province.instead he runs to Ottawa. I am all for co-operation. I am all for working from Ottawa. The other nine provinces are not up there trying to degut Ottawa. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, let the honourable gentleman make his speech later if he should wish to AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. 521

ebruary 11, 1974 Tape 155 PK - 5 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, rny facts may not be correct, I do not know ths.t,I am only relying on the minister's public statements. Whether they are facts or whether they are correct or not I ~nnot say. I have listened to this now for two years. I have listened to the Minister of Health go up to Ottawa - he is gone, I will say he is gone - go up to Ottawa, Mr. Speaker, MR. MURPHY: tnaudible. MR, ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I will not hear talk of integrity from the ~inister of Social Services. MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. ROB:&RTS: That is like hearing about it from a bird. MR.

MURPHY: Inaudible, MR. ROBERTS: That is like an inmate of the bordello talking about virginity. MR. MURPHY: •••• guarantee you that. MR. ROBERTS: M'r. Sueaker, the M:i.nister of Health goes to Ottawa and says that we should have a Health Financing Plan and takes the side of Quebec and of Ontario againi;t all the other provinces, provinces that are we.althytthat have access to great financial resources, that may have problems true but not the problems that we face in Newfoundland. Then they do it again on the energy crisis. Well 522

February 11, 1974, Tape 15_6, Page 1 -- apb you cannot have it both ways, Sir, because the issue in Ottawa, the issue that was before the country two or three weeks ago when that conference met, the issue is still not there because it was not sold, it is whether the Government of Canada are going to have the resources to help the have-not provinces and we are a have­ not province.

Maybe we will not be five years from now if there is oil there in col!IDlercial quantities. ' If" and that is an " If. ' If they discover it and that is a big "IF' ' and if they decide to exploit it , that is a big ' 1 IF' ' and if they can get the technology to bring it ashore and to make use of it and that is a further ·• rt •· and is four 11 IF's " so far, r-<r. Speaker.

If it is there in coTTm1ercial quantities, that has not been shown yet; if they discover it and that has not been done yet; if they get the technology to bring it ashore. and no where in the world is oil yet being tapped in the conditions that would have to be used in Newfoundland. The technology is still not present. The North Sea is not the same , the .Gulf of St. Lawrence is not the same. the three " If's," the four "If's : " If they decide to go ahead there is much oil in this world yet that is not being tapped. For one reason or another the Athabascan Tar Sands in Alberta, perhaps the best example.

There are billions of gallons of oil there that can be recovere<l,there is no technology difficulty.it is there in commercial quantities. They have discovered it , the technology is available but the economics are still against it though they may be marginal now with the increase in the cost of oil. Even if all those things come to pass we may then become a have province and like any Newfoundlander, I would to Heaven! that we could and I will be the first man to shout; Hosanna! when we do.

Until we do, Sir, until we do we must deal with our fellow provinces, with the Government of this Country, the Government of Canada according to our own best interests and not according to some wild­ eyed gamble of what may or may not happen twenty years from this day. 523

February 11, 1974, Tape 156, Page 2 -- apb That is what the Premier did in Ottawa. It was the biggest sellout of Newfoundland's po.sition since John Cabot only got ten pounds. Mr. Speaker, I submit that this is all part of an attitude being taken by this government. They are seeking a scapegoat but what they are beginning to realize, they are beginning to realize what the people of Newfoundland have already realized, that this group of men cannot come to grips with the problems facing this country and do anything about them. They have been in office now for two years and have funked, they have backed away.

This document, this Throne Speech is the most empty one - it is not even literate, it is as barren as the Funks. Barren as the Funks. Not only that, the Funks are covered with a certain substance and that is what that Speech is made of. Mr. Speaker, they are trying to blame Ottawa. They are trying to blame Ottawa and they have it put about that Ottawa is somehow responsible for their failures to deal with the problems of this country. I hold no brief for Ottawa.

Let the men in Ottawa speak for themselves no matter what side they belong to but I do want to see a confederation, Sir, that has a federal government with some resources, strong resources and I submit that is to Newfoundland's benefit. It it were not for Ottawa, if it were not for the equalization payments and the national programmes, the two great ways in which we get help, it would be a sorry place indeed, Sir.

The problems that we have now pale into insignificance compared to what they would be if there were no medicare schemes where we are equalized up to the national average, nor no Canada Pension Plans, nor all of the other, the family allowances, the other great social security plans whereby Ottawa attempts to put into effect that basic principle of confederatipn, that basic principle that says that every Canadian has a right, is entitled to certain minimum standards of public services. Then equalization, $150 millions or $160 millions a year at current rate. What this crowd would have if their theory 524

February 11, 1974, Tape 156, Page 3 -- apb was accepted was an Ottawa with no resources and provinces that were rich or poor according to whatever God may have given their and what they may have done with it. That is not the way confederation should work, Sir. It is not the way it has worked and it is not the way it should work. I do not care what they say or how they twist or distort those are the facts. There was a commentator on the CBC here, Mr. Richard Butler, I do not know the gentleman but I am told that he is a professor in the Political Science Department, who I thought put it well.

I have here a transcript of his remarks: On the vital issue of a national energy policy the r.overnment of Newfoundland,in his view,has miscalculated badly and has adopted a position that is politically unworkable, economically unfair and for want of a more delicate term, just plain greedy.

The Premier has stated that Newfoundland intends to support Albert's position, namely, that natural resources belong to the provinces. (That cannot be quoted, that is a matter of law, clear law.) Thus all tax revenues from their sale and their export, and their export (and the Hinister of Energy is now goin!! to make a devasting point. Come ahead) MR. BARRY: Would the honourable member permit a question? t!R. ROBERTS: Yes, I would be delighted. MR. BARRY: Is there anything less in having ownership? Is it not a mere empty shell if we do not have the revenue from what we own? t!R. ROBERTJ_:_ 1'1.r.

Speaker, if tomorrow were not Tuesday it would be Thursday a week past and that is the answer to the honourable gentleman's question which is a leading question in law. The owner of a property has the right to sell it for whatever he wishes. The owner of oil has the right to sell it for what he wishes. MR. W.N.ROWE: Governments tax it. NR. ROBERTS : Governments tax it. My friend from White Bay South owns a house, Mr. Speaker, municipalities tax, provinces tax, Ottawa taxes. Among the powers that Ottawa have to tax is the power to tax 525

February 11. 1974, Tape 156, Page 4 - - apb exports. What Ottawa has done as I understand it is tax exports. Oil that goes out of the country. MR. BARRY: Okay! Let us assUI11e that Alberta just raises the well-head price. MR. ROBERTS: Let us assume. Sir, the moon is made of green cheese. MR. BARRY: ---- Well thev are doing that. They have done it as a matter of fact, has the honourable member not heen reading the newspapers? ?1R~.-~O_!E_~.!~- Mr.

Speaker, I also read in my newspapers that a gentleman from Nova Scotia. a gentleman who is surely as interested in the interests of his province as any Newfoundlander is in the interests of Newfoundland, and he says as does Mr. Hatfield, who happens to be a Progressive Conservative, the Premier of New Brunswick - How come we have seen a principle that has escaped all these other gentlem _en? Can they be wrong and we he right? MR. BARRY: We are thinking for ourselves. MR. ROBERTS: We are thinking for ourselves and by God! it is pretty poor thinking, Sir.

The problem is that we are thinking only of ourselves, we are not thinkin!! of our own true interest. HR. BARRY: The honourable member never answered my question though. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I have answered the honourable gentleman's question. MR. BARRY: What if Alberta takes all the revenue at the •.• MR. ROBERTS: Alberta has the right, assuming it has not alienated the oil, of any owner, and the right of an owner, if I own a piece of land and the honourable gentleman from Placentia West wishes to buy it I have the right to charge him just as much as I can get from him. MR. BARRY: MR. ROBERTS: MR.

BARRY: MR. ROBERTS: That is what they are doing now. No quarrei with that. Who has quarrel with that? (Inaudible) No, Hr. Speaker, their stand. Their stand is that the federal government have no right to tax but it is a far more basic point than that. Their stand is that the federal government have no 526

February 11, 1974, Tape 156, Page 5 -- apb right to take advantage of resources across Canada to help all parts of Canada. They are for a Canada of ten greedy little competing provinces ••• MR. BARRY: Face up to it now. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, not only do I face up to that I face up to the honourable gentleman. They stand for a Canada that has ten completely independent provinces with no regard for the national wheel and that is it. I stand for a Canada that is a Canada and that has ten provinces and a national government and the national government looks out for all Canadians. MR. BARRY: Right.

So you stand for a federal government taking the revenue from Alberta at the well head. MR. ROBERTS: I stand, Hr. Speaker - if the honourable gentleman wants to make a speech he may make it. MR. BARRY: At the well head .• . MR. ROBERTS:. ~r. Speaker ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ROBERTS: ~r. Speaker, do I have the right? This ignorant gentleman used to be Deputy Speaker. MR. BARRY: Oh my! Oh my! Oh my! MR. ROBERTS: At one stage he was purported to know the rules of the House. I said I would take a question from him. I did and I answered it. MR. BARRY: No, the honourable gentleman did not. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, do I have the right to speak or do I have the right to be heckled? MR. BARRY: Sorry, Mr. Speaker, but .•• MR. EVANS: Speak for a change instead of what the honourable member is doing. MR. W.N.ROWE: We are involved in a schoolboy debate ••• MR. SPEAKER: Order please! MR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, I do not want to engage in; "Yes you are 521

February 11, 1974, Tape 156, Page 6 -- apb no you are not," that is the way the honourable gentleman wants to deabte. My concern is with a very great principle, 528

February 11, 1974 Tape no. ,s1s If they disagree with that principle, then in due course let them stand and say so. I say that the position this province took at Ottawa, two or three weeks past, was a position that would lead to a Canada of ten greedy little provinces - MR. W, ROWE: Arab sheikdom, MR. ROBERTS: Arab sheikdom was the way somebody put it. MR. W. ROWE: Blue-eyed Arabs, MR. ROBERTS: Blue-eyed Arabs. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). Page 1 - MRW MR. ROBERTS: I am being perfectly serious. Let the honourable gentleman hold his tongue. Mr. Speaker, that is what they stand for.

I stand for a Canada that has ten strong provinces. The essence of a federal system is a strong province and a strong national government, The honourable gentleman, Sir, wants a system of government roughly equivalent to the confederacy, the articles of Confederation of the United States in 1776, which is replaced by the present constitution. He would like the sort of Ottawa that Rene Levesque wants when he talks about an associated state, and Ottawa with some minuscule powers or maybe with wide powers but with minuscule resources.

I say, Sir, that the Government of Canada have the power to redistribute wealth .from one part of this country to another, I believe they should have that power. The honourable gentleman can twist, distort, misrepresent . and be as intellectually dishonest as he has been on this point. The fact remains, Mr. Speaker, that the policy which he and his colleagues advocated in Ottawa - he has the pride of an author - he must defend it. MR. BARRY: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Let him be quiet, Mr. Speaker. Let him speak when he has the opportunity to speak. If he says I am wrong, then let him expose it.

I say, he is wrong. I say, Mr. Speaker, that the policy which he and his colleagues have advocated is against the very basis of Confederation as we know it today in Newfoundland and as we have known it these twenty-five Years past . 529

February 11, 1974 Tape no. 1.;1 Page 2 I find it the ultimate in ironies. They are an administration that is going to fling away a couple of hundred thousand dollars in coins and whatever it is going in. This energy thing is not the first time they have done it. The health financing proposals a year past were the same way. Go to Ottawa and say, to hell with Ottawa, Mr. Speaker, to Hades with them in a hand-art. What we got, we got and what they have got, we have got to.

This is the same crowd that had the gall, the unmitigated gall to put in words in His Honour's mouth on Opening Day, in the Speech from the Throne,the following great words: "Full general development of our human and physical resources is unattainable without concerted action by both Federal and Provincial Governments." (Of all the Governor generalities ever put in a speech from the throne, that ranks near the top, Sir.) "Because of the wider taxation fields exercised by the Government of Canada,"(that is right, because Ottawa can level direct Laxes or indirect taxes and we can only levy direct)"my Government"(that is the Queen's government, not the government of the gentleman from Bonavista South, the Queen's government)"must look to Ottawa for revenue to sustain its programmes.

However, it is the Province which, within the context of Confederation, must determine the priorities of social goals and the quality of life of its people." That is one of the few statements in the speech that happens to make sense. Yet, it does not represent adequately or accurately the policy of the honourable gentleman and his administration. They are wrong and the fact that other than Mr. Claude Dawe, whose letter speaks for itself, not one voice publicly that I have heard, has been - MR. BARRY: Thousands'. Thousands! MR. ROBERTS: Thousands?

Oh, yes, there have been meetings out here in front of Confederation Building.six nights last week. MR. BARRY: Thousands. 530

February 11, 1974 Tape no. 1~1 Page 3 MR. ROBERTS: Hundreds of thousands. Down in Northeast Crouse, Sir, in my constituency, there are seven families there. The seven families got together by candlelight (the government have not given them lights) and they passed a resolution that said: "Resolved, that we, the free citizens of Northeast Crouse, congratulate the gentleman from Placentia West and his colleagues .•• " MR. BARRY: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if it were not such a serious matter, it would be funny. There has not been, other than Mr. Claude Dawe - Mr. Speaker, I do not want to be interrupted.

Let him speak. MR. BARRY: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: No, Mr. Speaker, because the honourable gentleman's leading question is designed to distort and twist and not designed to elicit information. If it were a court of law, Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman would be ruled out of order. He should be ruled out of order here but on different grounds. I have the right to speak. MR. BARRY: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am being perfectly serious. 1 do not take the honourable gentleman seriously. I have had the opportunity to read (a difficult job though it was) his

article in the "Evening Telegram." I have had one or two associates, some acquaintances of mine "in the Political Science Department who think - AN HON. MEMBER: Typographical errors. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, it named his name and the fact that they printed it, two typographical errors. But, Mr. Speaker, the gentleman's former colleagues in the Department of Political Science - Mr. Speaker! MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Dunphy) : Order please! MR. ROBERTS: I would rather be a biological,. error than a biological excrescent as is the honourable gentleman. Your turn "Leo." Mr. Speaker, if I could carry on without the low, erode humour of the gentleman from Placentia West. There has been no voice 531

February 11, 1974 Tape no. l;i1 Page 4 raised other than Mr. Claude Dawe in this province and the members of the administration. I have no doubt that the members of the administration are very vocal. MR. BARRY: Thousands. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, as I say, thousands, thousands, thousands, thousands - at least one and that one is - MR. BARRY: (Inaudible). MR, ROBERTS: A hot line, There have been meetings in the stadium down here in St. John's East, Sir, which has been taken seven nights this week past for meetinge and they have had to turn them away. MR. BARRY: The second biggest bluffer since - MR.

ROBERTS: On Bell Island, the Monsignor Bartlett Area, they are going to have to put an extensioa on it, If we had an arena on the Bur.in Peninsula ( we are not going to because we have been told by the Minister of Finance that they should be ashamed even to ask for jt) they would have been queued up from Goobies to Grand Bank just to get in to sign a resolution. Why the great covenant that the Ulstermen signed in the early years of this century, when Sir Edward Carson, signed i.rl. blood, the great covenant. It bears nothing, Sir, to the petition which is being gathered.

They are going to start at Nain and every community from Nain, Sir, to Hopedale, to Rigolet, to Makkovik, all the way. We will even get the Spotted Islands and Black Tickle in. Every person there, Sir, is 'rnshing foward to put his name - Mr. Speaker, one can have fun. I mean it, I expected better from the honourable gentleman. MR. BARRY: (Inaudible). MR.

ROBERTS: He and I disagree on partisan issues and perhaps agree on some other issues, But, Sir, I had really expected and hoped that this province would adopt a policy that stands for Newfoundland and at the same time stand for a Canada that could help Newfoundland. They have not done that. They have not done that, Sir. They have not done that. They can say that that is what they have done but the fact remains that 532

February 11, 1974 Tape no. 1.;1 Page 5 it is in fact not what they have done. Make them conde!IIIl, not just by me, I could be expected and certainly be accused of being partisan, It is very little this government could do that would please me. In fact if they were to resign, I would want to know the hitch in it, I am somewhat like Prince Metternich at the Congress of Vienna, 1815, when somebody ran up to him and said, "Prince so and so," a delegate from the other side,"has died." Prince Metternich considered and very softly he said, ·•How curious.

I wonder what his motives were." My feelings about this administration are much the same way. Judging by the comments that have come (I have not heard from thousands of people, but I have heard from one hundred or two hundred, which is a hundred or two hundred more than the honourable gentleman.) and judgiqg from the comments that I have heard, Sir, and the people, the position the editorials have taken, the various organs of public expression in this province today, this policy, Sir, is like a donkey; it has no pride of ancestory and no hope of posterity. Mr. Speaker, we will go back to energy.

It may be the subject - we will have a big debate in our caucus, Sir, on no-confidence motions. We are sorely tempted to take a week or two just to talk about the gpvernment's energy policy. Let them have at us,we will have at them, because we believe that the press will capture the essence of the debate, as only the press can. Sir, a minute on the television to cover three hours of debate. 'ffi., BARRY: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, they have had every opportunity to explain it to me and to the people of Newfoundland. We think perhaps we should have a debate, both sides in on it.

We have not had any contribution to it yet. I thought the gentleman from posters, the gentleman from Green Bay - I was delighted to see by the way he was having lunch today with the Tory candidate, putative former in Hermitage, glad to see that he is in such good health. I guess he is still on the rural development 533

February 11, 1974 Tape no. IS1 Page 6 authority, that nonpartisan agency that hands out loans for rural development on a nonpartisan basis. Mr. Speaker, the gentleman from Green Bay in his remarks favoured us with very little on the energy 534

February 11, 1974. Tape 158 RH - 1 I thought he was waiving a file about as he prepared to speak. I thought he had had fifty or one hundred letters from people on the Northeast Coast or in Jacques Fontaine or maybe down in Lance Cove or perhaps some- where out in Fogo Island. "I take pen in hand to write to you Mr. Premier, to tell you how much we enjoyed what you said in Ottawa and how good we thought it was." Those letters may be there. There may be thousands of them.

All I can say is not one of them has been presented publicly, not one of them has been presented publicly • AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: • • . got it all on the eight floor. MR. ROBERTS: Hr. Speaker, if I were on the eighth floor, I would be the only member of the public who has been there in two years. AN HON.OURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! MR, ROBERTS: Well, that was well said, Sir. It was well said.

I congratulate Your Honour on coming right to the heart of the problem and summing it up succintly and putting it forcefully in accordance with the traditions that were started in 1253, I think at the par­ liament of Simon de Montfort of Leicester. Simon de Montfort later lost his head, Sir, and I devoutly hope that will not happen to Your Honour. Hr. Speaker, I had a note here. I wanted to comment on the Speech itself but really I have not got the heart, Sir. It is such - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Oh, no. I have not got the mind. I agree because my mind, Mr.

Speaker, could only come to grips with the tangible and the real and this Speech is almost a serial. Salvador Dali, in his weakest moments, Sir, would have produced a better document than this. It is filled- with inconsistanties. It is filled with : abominable langua11;e, I doubt if the governor has ever been so ill-served as he was by 535

February 11, 1974. Tape 158 RH - 2 whoever wrote this particular collection of words. There are just one or two points I wanted to touch upon because we will have other opportunities. This debate will go on for a day or so yet, perhaps two or three more members will speak in it. I want to touch upon the Cour~ of Appeal and I want to issue an invitation to the Minister of Justice and I am glad he is here today.

I welcome the fact that we are going to have a Court of Appeal in Newfoundland and indeed my colleague, the gentleman from White Bay South, not only made a public statement several days before the Speech, urging the government to do it but when he was Minister of Justice acting for a period of several months in _the fall of 1972, he began the steps that lead and will lead to this creation of this court. A.~ HONOURABLE MEMBER: Two years later. MR. ROBERTS: Two years later. Now, that is the point.

Two years have gone by, two years have gone by and there are all sorts of people who have all sorts of reasons to why two years have gone by. I hope we will see the legislation that is promised in the Speech. I can assure you it will have our full support and I can assure you, Sir, that we will do what we can to make it come quickly. I do hope thoup.h that we will at the same time see legislation and a fifth judge for Corner Brook. It will be said that the Federal Government says that there is not enough work for the fifth judge.

I understand that it is up to us, this legislature, whether we create a fifth judge or not. The Law Society of Newfoundland have asked for it unanimously. Even the St. John's lawyers have supported that re­ commendation. They have come around. A few years ago when Mr. Wells and one or two of his c~lleagues from Corner Brook first raised the issue and the Minister of Justice was then Minister of Justice in another light, nobody agreed with it except Corner Brook people. Well 536

February 11, 1974. Tape 158 RH - 3 now, I would like to see us create it. We can create that position. If Ottawa then chose not to fill it, that would be Ottawa's decision, because, Sir, as Your Honour is intimately aware, although this House can create courts and create jud~es, we cannot appoint them. The power of appointment vests with the Minister of Justice and with the Governor-General at Ottawa. So, let us brin~ in the legislation when we amend the Judi­ cature Act and indeed if they do not we can because there is no cost to the Province. So an amendment will be proposed, Sir, from this side.

So we will put it to the test. Let there be provision in it for a fifth high-cou~t judge in Newfoundland. Our bar now, I submit is large enou~h that we could have the three judges of the Court of Appeal. I assume that is the number and five jud~es of the hi~h court or the trial division - eight judges. I think there are enough men and women at the bar that eight numbers can be found from among their numbers. If Ottawa says then that they do not think there is enough work - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: My information from Ottawa is different than what, than that which is alleged to have been said by the honourable member. Then let Ottawa take the responsibility. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Right. MR. ROBERTS: government do But let us act. We can do it and as I say, if the not put it in their bill, Sir, we shall propose the amendment and if the government will not accept it they will have to take the onus of turning it down, But the profession feel there is a need for a fifth judge, Sir.

They feel that justice would be served more speedily and more effectively and at less cost if there were to be created a Supreme Court judge sitting at Corner Brook. Now, Sir, at the same time, may I express the hope that we will have the Minister of Justice with us in this House until at least the next general election and I invite him when he speaks, when he speaks, 531

February 11, 1974. Tape 158 RH - 4 to state categorically that he intends to stay in this House and to serve his constituents from now until the next general election, whenever it may come. ! "invite him to say that. I think the House has need of his talent. I think the profession down town would be very happy, a legal profession.

He is brethren at the bar, our brethren at the bar throughout Newfoundland, would be genuinely pleased; perhaps when the ministry introduces the bill for second reading, if he were to say categorically that he will be a member of this House, given health and life, until the next general election~ he wi11 not leave this House for any reason because we need him in Newfoundland. I think the ministry should make that statement categorically and I invite him to do so. Indeed I have had numerous representations, one or maybe h 'o from Burin district saying they want him to stay on.

I know of six people who want to run against him, each one of them wants him to stay on so they can have the pleasure of beating him at the polls, but that is another issue. I am not asking him to run. What I am saying is,I invite him to give is the assurance as only the Minister of Justice can. There are a few of us, Mr. Speaker, who can be as sincere as the Minister of Justice when he is being sincere and I invite him to give us the assurance that he will be a member of this House at least until the Thirty-sixth General ~ssembly of this Province is desolved and we all return to whence we came, the electorate.

I raise this point now so the minister will have time to consider it and to make a statement. I suggest the ideal time would be on second reading. AN HONOURABLE HnffiER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I mean, there are reasons, of course, for this. There are those less noble and those of us on this side who feel that the reason we have the delay in bringing in this legislation which is very simple and could have been drafted very quickly, the reason we have had our completely unwarranted two year delay is not unconnected with my request. It was drafted last year and sent to Ottawa. Why was 538

February 11, 1974. Tape 158 RH - 5 it not drafted the year before and sent to Ottawa? Why is it not brought back from Ottawa? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible MR. ROBERTS: But, Mr. Speaker, I di~ not ask what the urgency was. It is the only thing the government has done this year, so they should have to tell me what is the urgency. I do not invite the honourable gentleman from St. John's West to say that he will be in the House for the next two years. I hope he will be. I have heard no suggestion he will not be. AN HONOURABLE MEMBfR: Certainly better than Magistrate Crosbie. MR.

ROBERTS: I ::hought thiot better than Magistrate Crosbie, Sir, Yes, that would be infected, downgrade the magistrates. I apologize to all magistrates of Newfoundland for having suggested that the gentleman from St. John's West could become a magistrate. Not only that, even the magistrate in Grand Falls, a gentleman, Magistrate Oldford,would not necessarv welcome the gentleman from St. John's West to the magisterial branch. But I make the invitation to the Minister of Justice. I do not make it to any other legal gentleman officer. I would not ask the gentleman from St. John's South or the gentleman from St.

John's East or the gentleman from White Bay South or the gentleman from St. John's West or the gentleman from Placentia West. All of those are members of that band of public servants who labour night and day at little recompense in the public interest, the members of the bar of this Province, the people who were kept so well employed by the gentleman from Bell Island. Mr. Speaker, in closing my few brief remarks - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Where is Witch Hunt Willy? Oh, there he is. MR. ROBERTS: Oh, he is gathering himself, arming for the fray. 539

February 11, 1974. Tape 158 RH - 6 Let me merely throw out for discussion a few suggestions, a few matters which I believe the government should deal with at this session of the Rouse. 540

February 11, 1974 Tape No. 159 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: I do not propose to try to present a Throne Speech. I do not oropose to try to touch on all the matters which should be dealt with by the public at this session, the public business but I would like to make a few suggestions that I think should be acted upon by the government of this provirce. Meaning that, Sir, I would like the assurance publicly in the House, I think it has been given outside the House but I am not sure and that is why I ask for it now, that the Report of the Task Force on Forestry will be tabled, will be made public and will be made public in plenty of time to enable gentlemen to study it and then to take

part in the debates. The legislation which we are to get, we understand, and with respect to forest tenures and to forestry generally will be among the more important bills ever brought into Newfoundland that will be brought into this House. We should have the Task Force Report to help us in studying it because the legislation I gather is in large measure dependent upon the task force reports and is shaped by them.

So I invite the Premier, or any honourable gentleman opposite who speaks to the ministry on this matter, to give us that assurance that we will have itso we will have the opportunity to study it and to consult with other people in the forestry field so that when the debates come we shall be all able to take

part in them, the forty-two of us, Sir, on an informed and knowledgeable basis. If the government do not table that report, Sir, as I said ,elsewhere, not only will their policies be suspect but their motives will be suspect also. In fishing I would hope that the Minister of Fisheries would give us an assurance that the Fishing Industry Advisory Board will be constituted and will be made an effective body. In this I am joined by that journalistic knight, that paragon of the pen, Mr.

Wick Collins of''The Evening Telegram'( a gentleman who is high in the esteem of Her Majesty's ministers but who wrote the following comment which appeared in the yellow dv~ of journalism, by which I mean"The Evening Telegram" and I rely upon the Premier as my authority for that statement. It was an off day but he did say it on Saturday, October 27 past. The headline 541

February 11, 1974 Tape No. 159 NM - 2 on this little tidbit, Sir, is "Fishermen Shafted Again." I used to think that shafted was an inelegant word, Sir, but again we have the Premier's authority for saying that it is a perfectly acceptable word and so Mr. Collins has used it. I will just read the first five paragraphs: "The fishermen of N.ewfoundland have been shafted before." And he is not talking about the honourable gentleman's grandfather either. "Shafted by the merchants. Shafted by the weather and a lack of fish.

Shafted by their own stupidity but now it looks as if they are going to get a royal shafting." Mr. Collins is a bit of a monarchist. "Yes, shafted by Her Majesty's Newfoundland Government and what could be more royal than that?' ' I could answer that question but I do not think it requires it. "It all has to do with the recently appointed Fishing Industry Advisory Board, the Board that was going to be the greatest stroke of luck that ever came the way of the fishermen.

"For the first time in our history the merchants would not be able to spin their web with half truths about foreign markets and the many and varied reasons why they could not pay a better price for the fish. "By having the Board to do the work for them, fishermen for the first time would be the equals of the merchants when the price was being decided. "Like a lot of other people, I looked on the Board as the salvation of the inshore fishery." That is Mr. Collins speaking and I think his words are well said.

I think the Fishing Industry Advisory Board could be a most important part of the whole fishing industry and of the public policy towards that industry and now that the Minister of Manpower is with us,again back at work, I hope that he will immediately put his attention to this. Unfortunately,in his absence there was no real ministerial attention, and I do not blame him, no ministerial attention paid at all to his department, it just drifted along without the guiding hand of the minister. 542

February 11, 1974 Tape NO. 159 NM - 3 "What a fool I was ever to believe the government would allow the Board to do its job properly. Mind you I was full of suspicic~ that the Board would be shoved into a corner and told to shut up but I kind of hoped that at long last the Premier was really going to do something for the fishermen." ~rr. Collins I would venture to say, will not be hired by Mr. George McLean on the basis of this. AN HON. MEMBER: ·we have a new one now, Horizons Communications. MR. ROBERTS: We will have a talk about that.

"That turned out to be a wasted hope for already the Board is not worth the piece of paper that was used to appoint it. For all practical purposes the Board is dead." That was written following the resignation of Mr. Anderson as the Chairman of the Board. Now, Sir, that was on October 27 and October has gone and November has come and gone and December has come and gone and January has come and gone and here it is now about mid February and we still have no chairman, but I hope we will have one shortly. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. ' MR.. ROBERTS: Well legislation is within the hands of the government.

They have had two years to bring it in. They have had two sessions of the House. The House Leader, the gentleman from St. John's East, has told us we put through literally hundreds of bills, some of them the most earth-shattering ever as we took out a comma and replaced it with a full stop. If the Board do not have the power they need and they may not, then let the government bring in the legislation. We asked them last year to bring it in. It did not come in last year. Maybe it will come in this year. I hope so.

Then let there be a chairman, let there be a chairman appointed and let this Board get to work but I ask the government to do that and I urge you to do it and I urge you to do it iJDmediately. The chairman can be appointed this day or tomorrow. The legislation can come in t _omorrow and it will be through the House 543

February 11, 1974 Tape No. 159 NM - 4 by weekend,with our full co-operation on this side, but I want action quickly, before we get well into the season. Now is the time to move. I hope we will see the regional offices of the Department of Fisheries. The famour Throne Speech on March 1, 1972.promised we would have regional offices in the Department of Fisheries. It named a whole raft of communities that would be honoured. I do not know what has happened. There have been no regional offices, maybe because there have been no elections. Was it just a cynical election promise to try to hook a few votes?

Is that why one was promised for Lewisporte1 Recently I saw an advertisement in the paper attempting to hire people for this. Why did it take two years? When are we going to see some action there? When are we going to see a government policy aimed at getting our fishermen into one hundred and twenty foot boats, into the big multi-purpose boats that we have heard so much about? When? I do not believe any as yet have b -~ en launched. There were a couple being built at Marystown as a make-work project. I do not know what has happened to them. AN HON. MEMBER: To what? MR. ROBERTS: These multi-purpose boats that Mr.

Cheeseman used to talk about. AN HON. MEMBER: Make-work projects. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, make-work projects, I know because it was a great project of ours to set up the Marystown Yard and to get John Rannie in. There was a period when the yard did not have a lot of work and Roy Cheeseman sat in his chair behind the honourable gentleman, the honourable gentleman was not then an honourable gentleman. he was just an honourable gentleman, and what an honourable gentleman if you follow me, Mr. Speaker, AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Well talking to babies~! use it. He said, Mr.

Speaker, that there would be boats built at Marystown, multi-purpose boats. They may have been built for all I know but what has happened to 544

February 11, 1974 Tape No. 1974 NM - 5 them? When are we going to have some meaningful fishery development? We have had nothing. Two years in office and no more done for the fishermen, no more done for the fishermen than the Tory Party has ever done for them and here comes the expert on fisheries now, the gentleman from St. John's Centre,and he is fishing, Sir. He was in Topsail Pond last su111Der.

While I am on it, Sir, it has been suggested to me that I might wish to ask what the government know about a firm called "Horizons Communications", whether they have been hired full-time to do public relations work for the government for the rest of the year in connection with our twenty-fifth anniversary? Whether it is the firm's twenty-fifth anniversary, whether it is a new firm that has been set up? Who are the principles in it? How much are they being paid?

Is this a little like the slides counting,$12,OOO ,when the Auditor General tells us they cannot find the slides, they cannot find what they were for and they cannot find the contract; all that they can find is that the money went to !-Ir. McLean. AN. HON. MEMBER: We will find it all soon. MR. ROBERTS: I hope the honourable gentleman does find them and I will say that it is probably the most useful thing he will have done in the last two years if he can find them. If he can also find out who authorized- the payment to Act III, I am looking forward to seeing that voucher, Sir, 545

February 11, 1974 Tape 160 IB-1 his word as seeing that voucher as to who signed it because, Sir, that money could not have been paid to Act III unless some official si~ed for the $517. Ts the honourable gentleman doubting the Auditor General's word? The monev could not have been paid to Act III by the Department of Finance unless some officals authorized and initialed the voucher. I would like to know who that official was. AN HONOPRABLE }!EMBER: Fi re him more than likely. MR. RORF.R'T'S: I would not fire him.

J would like to find out who he was and if there is an official who authorized him to sign it or for what reason he signed it. It would he very interesting. ~r. Sneaker, to turn to education, I hope that the Minister of Education will come to grips with this. He has had a year and a half no~• fuddle-duddling, of skating hither and yon, weavin~ a web of words that have nothinp.: to do with the real problems of education. I am beginning to think that the gentleman from St.

John's North. in whom we had a limited degree of confidence as Minister of Education, was perhaps more of an asset to the educational world in Newfoundland than is his successor the present minister who gives the appearance of being all knowledgeable and of being a very fine fellow which he is but of just refusing to come to grips with the issue. How long can you go on studyinp? How long can you he a student? We are going to have some new schools.

Every school board in Newfoundland has now announced - I do not know if they have announced formally but it 1.s a well-known and very public fact that there will be no new schools huil t of any significant value in the next two or three years unless the government increases the $8 million per annum grant. The $12 million offer which the Minister of Education made to the school tax authorities at the school boards' meeting here in October has been spumed by them. The letter which they have written back is one of the better public pieces I have seen in some time.

It certainly explodes the holiness of the government's position. I would like to see them come to grips with current account financing. I understand almost all of the school boards in Newfoundland today have massive current 546

February 11, 1974 Tape 160 IB-2 account deficits incurred not by extravagance but incurred because they have been hit these last few months with costs beyond their control, cost rises. The Minister of Education, I understand, is now to meet this week with these boards. I hope he is gotng to reverse his most unfortunate position, the position where he said he would do ~othing for them in this current fiscal year. The debts they have this year they will have to live with. Well, that may have been hammered out of him. I would like to see a pcsitive approach made to DRF.E for capital assistance.

The government seem to have turned their back on that now. The standards are too high and surely the answer is to r,o back to n~EE and say that and to negotiate around. Instead what they have done is they have thrmm away the opnortunity to receive $11 million or $12 million a year. We have been spending that. We have the schools. If the schools are not the right schools, Sir, then this government agreed to them. This government have built them. Surely the answer is not just to turn their backs on a source of money. Why not go to Ottawa and ask DREE for assistance on current accounts?

There is nothinR inconsistent or illogical about that. Why not do it? The Government of Canada gave us an extra $20 million last year to help with school financing. They chan~ed the equalization formula. That got to be pretty small potatoes when it got into the school boards' hands. My concern is not so much with the school boards as it is with the students who must use those schools, Sir, who must go study in inadequate facilities and their parents who have to pay the assessments and the taxes that will be needed. I hope the government will make a meaningful and positive policy on student aid.

If there is one thing that more than any other stands to the shame of this honourable crowd, it is their student aid policy where they have been bullheaded and pigheaded and obstinate in the extreme and the results have been exactly as they were predicted. A study done by Dr. Parsons and his associates is ~retty conclusive 547

Fehruary 11, 1974 Tape 160 IB-3 evidence that the government's lack of a policy or the government's change in policy has done grievous damage to the numbers of students who want to come into university. There are other reasons but that appears to be thP maior reason. I do not want to sav, we told you so.because we take no pride in that. We did hammer for two years at this government and they crassly and stupidly refused even to listen to the arguments. Well, Sir, let them listen now. I am not even going to say that they should be men of their word.

They made commitments to those students during the election campaign, commitments which T think earned them an amount of support. They have reneged on those but I am not using that ergument. The argument I use is a simple one of social justice, that our Newfoundland children have the same right to education be they rich or he they poor. Given two years of a Tory Government and your chance of getting an education depends on whether you are rich. If they do not chance that Policy, Sir. Memorial will become an elitest institution. I mean, that i~ had for Memorial and it is even worse for Newfoundland.

Let them this year deal with that. Finally, •Mr. Speaker - when I loolr at the honourable member from Burgeo my faith in the efficacy of education is restored because if ever there was an argument, Sir, for education, it is the honourable gentleman fr0111 Burgeo. Mr. Speaker, let me touch very briefly upon housin2 a subject - it is hard to believe the government have been as bad as they have been on housing. When I look at the Minister of Municipal Affairs I can understand part of the reason. Mr. Speaker, let me read the words in the Throne Speech having to do with housing. That is health. That is pathetic.

Where is the housing thing? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: Does Your Honour feel that the House is not in order, Sir? Where is the housing thing? My! Oh my! It leaped out and it sunk bac~ into the morass now. I said morass. That is one word,for the benefit of those opposite. Before we come to that - my friend and colleague will find it 548

February 11, 1974 Tape 160 IB-4 for me - let me just read one or two little figures that show how far we have come under the beneficent administration from the gentleman from Fortune Bay, that paragon,he tells us, of integrity and courage and virtue. Re did not say intelligence nor would I. Mr.

Speaker, if we look - these are statistics Canada figures - if we look at the number of permits issued, number of building permits issued in millions · of dollars and bearing in mind our housing is more expensive than anywhere else f.n Canada, where does Newfound land come: We rank ten th out of the ten provinces in the value of our housing. $13 million, that is the figure for the first ten months of 1973, the most recent figures that statistics Canada can give to me. We rank tenth in the value of new building permits. New buildings, n-e-w, new as opposed to old, o-1-d. I do want to be sure the gentleman from St.

John's Centre is with me. For the first nine months of 1973, Mr. Speaker, dwellin~ 1mits started i.n all areas of Newfoundland. We ranked eir-hth across Canada. We have 7.4 dwelling units started per thousand population. Eight other provinces - little Prince Edward Island has t\Jice as many Per thousand population as we do. If we look at dwelling 1mits comnlete<l, all areas, not just St. John's but thP whole province, again in Statistics Canada we rank that same eight. Nova Scoti .a wa,; ninth and Saskatchewan was tenth hut we know the population in Saskatchewan is falling.

If we look at <lwelling units under construction in All areas, a three month average for the first three quarters of 1973, we rank eight across Canada. Hr. Speaker, if we look at the number of housing starts, from January to October per thousand population, the national average is 8.2. The figure for Newfoundland is 3.7, less than half. We stand eighth across Canada. Mr. Speaker, that is a sorry story. It is a sorry tale. We are building more houses this year than we built last year but that shows how far behind we were last year.

So, I make a proposal now to the government and I hope the minister will get his little pencil and write it down. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: How many existing homes purchased? 549

February 11, 1974 Tape 160 IB-5 MR. ROBERTS: How many existin~ homei, purchased? I c!o not know. A new home that is purchased. Si r, let me try to explain to the ientleman from St . John's and i t will be difficult. An existing home that is nurchas ed does not add to the stock of hous:ln.iz in the province. If Your Ronour owns a house and sells it to me, it Rives me a house but it does not ~ive Your Honour a house. MR . W. ROWJ':: There is nothing said here about hou.sin~. 1-'1{. ROBERTS: Yes, there is a reference to housinR. ~~. W. ROWE: Well, it is awfully well hidden. MR.

ROBERTS: It is well hicden anti it is ;:ieaninl,!.less . Let me out a nroposal to the ministrv, ~ir. let them survey the housinR stoc~ of this province. T e r them makP ii provi ncewide survey of what houses we have 550

February 11, 1974 Ta!)e 161 PK - 1 and where they are grade them, maybe Grade A, B, C and D. That will go from the most expensive house in on Mount Scio Road or over here in St. Andrews Place all the way to a tilt or a hovel, wherever our people are living the hundred and some odd thousand families in Newfoundland. AN HON. MEMBER: Hogan's Pond, Topsail Pond. MR. ROBERTS: It would inclur-e Topsail Pond and it would include Hogan's Porid. Mr. Speaker, when we know what the housing stock is.let us erect some standards of what is adequate housing. I think we could do that.

What is the minimum that a person and family can live in? The minimum of square feet and the minimum amount of space and the minimum degree of ~rotection from the elements? Those tw~ calculations, Sir, will tell us the gap that has to be filled and there is a gap. Any honourable gentleman would know there is a gap. The members who sit for St. John's are perhaps more aware of it. I think the gentleman for St. John's Centre is perhaps more aware of it because many of his constituents are living in housing conditions that are not very good at all. MR. MURPHY: Since 1962. MR.

ROBERTS: Some of them living there longer than 1962,I fear. MR. MURPHY: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Oh, all right. I give him credit for that. I give him credit for that. I would wish that he would do som~thing now that he is in power hut I give him credit. Mr. Speaker, the housing problem in Newfoundland is not confined to the urban areas. The rural areas, those of us who sit - the member for Ferryland has a rural constituency, I suppose the largest community this side of the Town of Bay Bulls which is a suburb in many ways, a bedroom suburb of St. John's.

I am sure there are many areas, many communities in Ferryland District have homes in the.m that are not adequate by any standard. Every district, Trinity North is the same way; my own. I cannot name a constituency in Newfoundland except 551

February 11, 1974 Tape 161 PK - 2 Labrador West because eve.rything there is new, and by definition there is very little poverty, financial poverty. lack of wealth in Labrador West. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: No, as I may say,his constituents are hard up but by comparison with most parts of this province there is relative affluence in Labrador West. Certainly the housing there is the envy of most of us. But there is not a district other than Labrador West, Sir, comes to my mind where people do not have serious housing problems. The existing programmes are not adequate.

The Social Service Department cannot deal with them. I would be the first to admit it. I was frustrated at this point when I was there and I think my colleague for Bell Island was and I am sure the gentleman for St. John's Centre there are days when he could almost kick the wall in fury at not being able to do what had to be done but it is beyond the purview of Social Assistance as such. AN HON. MEMBER: Gaskiers. MR. ROBERTS: That is true. MR. MURPHY: .••• quarter of a mJllion in my district now. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: Mundy Pond. MR. ROBERTS: Yes they did.

Oh, yes they did over on the Southside and Now, Mr. Speaker, once we know what the gap is - once we know what the need is for housing then we can work out quickly and adopt a programme to meet that need. I am going to say to the House now that I believe that the Government of this Province and I do not care what the party - the Government of this Province must accept as an obligation,as a right of every citizen, the right to decent and adequate housing. I think that is the next step forward. We have done it with medical care, we have done it with hospital care, we have done it with education.

Fifty years ago, education depended on money. Twenty years ago, if you got sick and you did not have money 552

February 11, 1974 Tape 161 PK - 3 you had to look to charity or you did without it. Well now let us accept housing as being a fit subject for the use of public funds. I do not mean just low rental or subsidized units. I do not mean just central mortgage although we are not taking any advantage of central mortgage. Let us make a major social commitment in Newfoundland to say to every Newfoundlander that you are guaranteed a minimum,adequate, decent standard of accommodation and housing and you will pay for it according to your means, if you have not the means you will get it anyway.

We do not say to a person who is sick and comes to a doctor ''lfoy you are only makinF: $3,000 a year, you cannot afford a $1000 operation." There is no question of that. There is no question of that when it comes to education. A child from a family living on social assistance has as much right to go to the university as does a child whose father is making $50,000 a year. MR. ROWE: W.N. Let "John Crosbie" cut out the tuition. MR. ROBERTS: We would all agree on housing.

If the government are looking for something to do and they certainly have not found much to do 1udging from the Throne Speech,let them take this, Sir, as a major goal. The need is there. I cannot give Your Honour figures because they do not exist but I have outlined a method which I believe would enable us to get the figures and to get them reasonably quickly. There are many possible answers, Sir, perhaps we should not just have land banks perhaps we should end the speculation in land. Let it be, Sir, all land for development is purchased by the Crown, developed and sold.

Let there be no private land development, AN HON. MEMBER: Sold, rented or leased. MR. ROBERTS: Well sold, rented or leased. Perhaps we could take the developer right out of the land business because I understand that every commission and agency who looked at this has agreed that it is the developer, the speculator who makes a big hunk of money on the way through. We should end that. We could do it. We have the financial resources. We will get our money back·It would be a revolving fund. 553

February 11, 1974 Tape 161 PK - 4 The St. John's Housing Corporation have for twenty or twenty-five years developed lots and sold them at cost, they may even make a little money on it for all I know. They sell them and I believe they are considerably cheaper than the private market. Certainly they are as cheap as can be,Then maybe we should get into subsidizes. The Government of the Province can do this, Sir, end all land speculation everywhere in this province. It could be done. It is not difficult. It is not impossible. It would not be overly costly on a revolving basis.

We got into subsidies,that is another story. Then let us look at waht it cost to build houses. I.et us look at what it would cost and how we could help people to get them. That could be done, Mr. Speaker. That, Mr. Speaker, could MR. MORGAN: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: That, Mr. Speaker, I can do without the gentleman for Ronavista South, so could his constituents,but that is another story. MR, NEARY: Rossie will take care of him. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, let us then reduce the cost as much as we cani let us then look at a progra11DDe to help people and not just low rental or subsidized rental.

I think one of the great needs of our time is for people to own something, to own a bit of land, own a house. AN HON. MEMBER: Let us be positive. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the honourable gentleman savs "Let us he positive." I am putting up the most positive plan that anybody in this House has put up for the past two years. I do not particularly fj_nd myself surprized that the gentleman for Bonavista South does not understand it. He has been primed to come into this House and spend the rest of the session being a gashouse gang and saying"Be positive''and to heckle. He 9opes it will get him into the cabinet.

AN HON. MEMBER: What a joker! MR. ROBERTS: He is trying. I mean you see the man bucking for a promotion and unfortunately he does not realize it,to win his way into the cabinet he will have to do the sort of thing the gentleman for St. John's. 554

February 11, 1974 Tape 161 PK - 5 South is doing. I am not suggesting the honourable gentleman for St. John's South is trying to get int