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October 19, 2020

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Derrick Bragg, MHA for Fogo Island - Cape Freels,

substitutes for Carol Anne Haley, MHA for Burin - Grand Bank.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Siobhan Coady, MHA for St. John's West,

substitutes for Sherry Gambin-Walsh, MHA for Placentia - St. Mary's.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Jeff Dwyer, MHA for Placentia West - Bellevue,

substitutes for Helen Conway Ottenheimer, MHA for Harbour Main.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Elvis Loveless, MHA for Fortune Bay - Cape La

Hune, substitutes for Pam Parsons, MHA for Harbour Grace - Port de Grave.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Tom Osborne, MHA for Waterford Valley,

substitutes for Christopher Mitchelmore, MHA for St. Barbe - L'Anse aux Meadows.

The Committee met at 6 p.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Trimper):

All right. Well, thank you, everyone, for gathering this evening for the

Estimates of the Department of Children, Seniors and Social Development and for

the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. My name is Perry Trimper and

I'm the MHA for Lake Melville. It's good to be back in this seat, may I just say

that. It's good to be back in this seat.

We will proceed, first of all, with the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

Corporation. We have officials, along with the minister, representing that

department of government, so we'll start with them. When we've concluded with

those folks we'll break momentarily and allow the CSSD people to come in.

Depending on the time we may take a break then. I'm going to try to allow

everyone to have a little stretch break about every 90 minutes or so. We'll see

how it goes through this evening.

I know that Kimberley was instructing most of you. If you haven't sat through an

Estimates yet this season, we're working with COVID-19 protocols, so I would ask

each one of you that if you do get up from your chair to please make sure you

wear your mask if you're having to leave or move about the room, but as you're

sitting there that's just fine.

In terms of working with the Broadcast, especially folks out to my left, they

may not be familiar with who you all are. To identify yourself sometimes you

just need to wave your hand and they will become very closely associated with

you. You can just introduce yourself, I'm so-and-so, and then respond to the

questions that will come from the opposing side.

With that, Minister, I think I'll turn to yourself and maybe introduce your

team. I think I'm also going to go to my right and we'll have everybody

introduced. Then I'll turn back to you, Minister, to have some opening remarks

for 15 minutes. So if you want to start with introductions on my left, please.

MS. MULLALEY:

Julia Mullaley, CEO of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.

MR. WARR:

Brian Warr, Minister Responsible for Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

Corporation.

MS. THOMAS:

Melanie Thomas, Director of Policy, Housing and Homelessness.

CHAIR:

Just put your hand up there. There you go.

MR. TIZZARD:

Mike Tizzard, I'm the Executive Director of Finance and Corporate Services at

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing.

MR. JACKMAN:

Hi, I'm Doug Jackman, Director of Finance with Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing.

MS. WHITE:

Kelly White, Executive Assistant to Minister Warr.

MR. ABBOTT:

Paul Abbott, Executive Director of Regional Operations and Program Delivery with

the Housing Corporation.

CHAIR:

Thank you very much.

I'll turn to my right and I'll just start right here right immediately adjacent

to me.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Tony Wakeham, MHA, Stephenville - Port au Port.

MR. DWYER:

Jeff Dwyer, MHA, Placentia West - Bellevue.

MS. S. B. WALSH:

Susan Walsh, Researcher with the NDP caucus office.

MR. J. DINN:

Jim Dinn, MHA for St. John's Centre.

MR. KENT:

Steven Kent, Researcher with the NDP caucus.

MR. YOUNG:

Carlson Young, Researcher, Opposition office, PC Party.

MR. RYAN:

Nathan Ryan, Political Support –

CHAIR:

You need your light on. It will come on just –

MR. BRAGG:

Derrick Bragg, MHA for the historic and scenic District of Fogo Island - Cape

Freels.

MR. OSBORNE:

Tom Osborne, MHA, Waterford Valley.

MR. LOVELESS:

Elvis Loveless, MHA, Fortune Bay - Cape La Hune.

MS. COADY:

Siobhan Coady, St. John's West, MHA.

MR. PARDY:

Craig Pardy, MHA, District of Bonavista.

CHAIR:

Broadcast, there's one more individual that we need to – just put your hand up,

Sir. There you go.

MR. RYAN:

There we go; we have the light now.

Nathan Ryan, Political Support, office of the Official Opposition.

CHAIR:

All right. Thank you, everyone.

We are not recording this visually, but we are recording your voices from an

audio perspective, so just try to pause when you see the light then speak away

and I'll correct you as you go.

With that, Minister Warr, I'll turn it over to you, Sir, to introduce and

opening remarks for Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.

MR. WARR:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good evening, everyone.

As Minister Responsible for the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation,

I'm pleased to be here to discuss this year's Estimates for the corporation. I

won't go through the – actually, I will. Here with me are Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing Corporation's Julia Mullaley, CEO; Mike Tizzard, Executive

Director of Finance and Corporate Services; Paul Abbot, Executive Director of

Regional Operations and Program Delivery; Doug Jackman, Director of Finance; and

Melanie Thomas, Director of Policy, Housing and Homelessness. Also with me is a

face I think most of you know, my Executive Assistant, Kelly White.

Through Budget 2020 our government is

pleased to provide an investment of over $50 million to Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing Corporation enabling the delivery of vital programs and

services that address a diverse range of housing needs across the province, from

those who are at risk of or experiencing homelessness, to low-income individuals

and families facing challenges with housing affordability. These investments

assist those with direct needs, including seniors, youth, persons with

disabilities and those with complex needs that require access to stable housing

options that they can afford.

In April 2019, stemming from the National Housing Strategy, our government was

very pleased to announce a nine-year federal-provincial agreement that will

provide $270 million in combined funding. This funding is designed to preserve,

renew and expand social and community housing in Newfoundland and Labrador and

bring new housing solutions to many people in core housing need.

Budget 2020

supports the maintenance and operation of the corporation's public rental

housing portfolio that provides access to safe, quality and affordable housing

for almost 12,000 low-income clients. Investments include, for example, $13.8

million for the repair, renovation and modernization of this public rental

housing. Funding of over $6 million is also provided to support operations of

partner-managed and co-operative housing providers throughout the province.

These housing providers offer subsidized housing options to over 1,600

households with low to moderate incomes.

Budget 2020

also invests $11.4 million to support the corporation's Rent Supplement Program

with private landlords, expanding the available housing options and assisting

over 2,000 low-income individuals find safe and affordable homes. Over 50 per

cent of rent supplement clients are seniors. Our government recognizes the

benefits of aging within our homes and our community and having the supports to

live independent, active and fulfilling lives close to families and friends.

Budget 2020

provides $12.8 million to provide much-needed financial assistance to over 1,400

low-income homeowners throughout the province, most of whom are seniors. This

includes funding for the Provincial Home Repair Program, to address needed home

Energy Savings Program, to make energy efficiency improvements and reduce

heating costs.

Through Budget 2020 , government has

provided $4.6 million to provide emergency accommodations, food, transportation

and supports to over 1,000 individuals annually throughout the province who are

experiencing homelessness. This includes the recently announced funding to The

Gathering Place here in St. John's to establish a much-needed low-barrier,

30-bed temporary emergency shelter for individuals experiencing homelessness.

Complementing the ongoing work of End Homelessness St. John's and its community

partners, this initiative will also support a response to help meet the needs of

the homeless population in preparation for any potential second wave of

COVID-19. This shelter will be based on a low-barrier, housing-first model that

focuses on accepting unsheltered individuals as they are and assisting them to

move to permanent housing as quickly as possible. This shelter recently became

operational and will be in place for one year. A request for proposals was

recently issued for a permanent low-barrier shelter to be in place by September

Budget 2020

also provides funding of $8.8 million to the 10 transition houses throughout the

province to support over 800 clients. These transition houses provide safe,

short-term accommodations, services and resources to support women and their

children who are vulnerable or at risk of or have been subjected to intimate

partner violence.

Through Budget 2020 government has

continued its investment of $7.6 million to the Supportive Living Program. This

program provides funding to over 20 non-profit community-based groups throughout

the province to prevent homelessness and provide individual supports to foster

long-term housing stability. In the most recent year, over 800 individuals were

housed through the Supportive Living Program and over 4,300 individuals were

supported that were at risk of and/or were experiencing homelessness.

In closing, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to highlight a number

of key Budget 2020 investments

designed to address housing and homelessness issues in our province. We

recognize that housing is a basic necessity of life. Investments that support

stable, affordable and good quality housing for those most in need are critical

in enhancing individual health and well-being, as well as fostering social

inclusion, community development and growth.

I thank you for attending this evening and I'll certainly take the opportunity

to answer any questions that you may have.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister.

I'll turn to the representative of the Opposition Party for any opening remarks.

Do you have any opening remarks or would you like to dive in to the questions?

MR. WAKEHAM:

We'll dive in to the questions.

CHAIR:

Dive in.

Okay, then I'll ask the Clerk to call the first heading, please.

CLERK (Hammond):

1.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 carry?

I'll turn to the Member for Stephenville - Port au Port.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Thank you.

I have some general questions, as well as some particular questions. The general

questions are pretty quick ones. The first one, of course, is: Can we obtain a

copy of the minister's briefing binder? I think that's pretty standard.

MR. WARR:

Absolutely. I think we have those on hand here.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Are you still applying zero-based budgeting?

MR. WARR:

Yes, we are.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay.

Are there any errors in the published Estimates book?

MR. WARR:

Not that I'm aware of.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay.

Is the attrition plan still being followed?

MR. WARR:

Yes, it is.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay. If so, what are the changes for last year and this year? How is it being

measured?

MR. WARR:

I'll pass that over to Julia.

MS. MULLALEY:

Sure. We do have some attrition targets for the current year coming up that's

$77,200. We would have submitted a plan on that for the positions and that will

be done through attrition.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay.

How many people are employed in the department?

MS. MULLALEY:

There are 309 positions in total across the province.

MR. WAKEHAM:

309, okay. How many people retired last year?

MR. WARR:

There were three management and nine bargaining unit retired in fiscal

2019-2020.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Any vacancies not filled?

MS. MULLALEY:

There are a number of current vacancies that are moving through the process for

hiring now.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Do we have a number?

MS. MULLALEY:

Thirteen under recruitment currently.

MR. WAKEHAM:

That's 13 out of 309?

MS. MULLALEY:

Yes.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay.

What about positions eliminated in the last year? What were they, if any?

MR. TIZZARD:

There were no positions eliminated last year at NLHC.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay.

MR. TIZZARD:

As Julia mentioned, there are positions – a plan submitted for this year's

attrition target.

MR. WAKEHAM:

No layoffs last year?

MR. TIZZARD:

No, no layoffs,

MR. WAKEHAM:

How about new hires?

MS. MULLALEY:

There would have been, again, a normal hiring process throughout the year. I

don't know if I have the exact number of hires there? No. Certainly, we can get

that for you.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay.

How many of the positions are contractual and short-term employees in the

department?

MR. WARR:

There are 300 permanent, one seasonal, one contractual and seven temporary for

the fiscal year ending March 31, 2020.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay and that's your 309. Thank you.

Did you guys receive any funds from the $200-million contingency fund to date?

MS. MULLALEY:

We will be receiving some funding to support The Gathering Place – a low-barrier

shelter for The Gathering Place. That's from the contingency fund.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Right. How much was that again?

MS. MULLALEY:

It was $437,000 for the current year.

MR. WAKEHAM:

How much?

MS. MULLALEY:

$437,000.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay.

The COVID fund: Did you receive any money from that?

MS. MULLALEY:

That's the funding I'm talking about it.

MR. WAKEHAM:

That was that, okay. The contingency fund, the other fund, you didn't get

necessarily anything from that one.

Okay, I'll move quickly so we can get done. Under Grants and Subsidies, 1.1.01,

last year there was $1,492,000 more spent than was budgeted in total. I was just

wondering for a breakdown of what caused that.

MS. MULLALEY:

The key difference there would've been, again, funding shortfall for the

emergency accommodations that we would've had to go to Treasury Board for last

year. That's the most significant.

MR. WAKEHAM:

This year it's gone up over last year's actuals significantly. What's the

rationale for that?

MS. MULLALEY:

Perhaps I'll bring you – from the budget '19-'20 to the '20-'21 Estimates?

MR. WAKEHAM:

Yeah, I'm looking at '19-'20 actuals of $46.7 million and I'm looking at the

Estimate of $50.5 million.

MS. MULLALEY:

What we would have had in the current year is some additional funding from the

Home Repair programs and also from our Home Energy Savings plans as well.

MR. WAKEHAM:

So it's an infusion.

MS. MULLALEY:

Correct.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Excellent.

The revenue from the federal government seems to have dropped, the revised

balance. It went from an original budget last year of $770,000 and then no

actuals. This year we've dropped it down again to $518,000.

MS. MULLALEY:

Of course, you're probably familiar with the Low Carbon Economy Fund from the

federal government. This is a program we have that is also cost-shared with the

federal government, the energy savings plan, again, and the home-heating energy

savings plan. That particular one is – the money is received from the federal

government.

The $777,800 would have been budgeted last year. There's no actual. There was

money received but it actually ended up in Municipal Affairs at the time. The

department of municipal affairs helps to –

MR. WAKEHAM:

Took your money?

MS. MULLALEY:

They would've billed us, but the funding itself went through the Estimates over

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay, so it's just a reflection of that change.

MS. MULLALEY:

Then the $518,800 is budgeted again this year. We're still part of that

particular program.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay, thank you.

What is the current wait-list for a rent supplement by region?

MS. MULLALEY:

We don't have a specific wait-list per rent supp. How the programs work is that

an eligible applicant will actually submit an application to Housing to be a

part of the wait-list. Then, depending on when a unit becomes available, they

may be put in a rent supp and/or Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. So there's

no specific wait-list just for rent supps. But for the wait-list in total,

across the corporation, across the province, at the end of September, is 1,486.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Can we get a breakdown of that by region?

MS. MULLALEY:

Absolutely. I do have that here as well, if you would like it now.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay, you can just send it along.

Is there a wait-list for the Home Repair Program?

MS. MULLALEY:

Again, it's not a particular wait-list. We are processing applications as they

are coming in.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Right.

MS. MULLALEY:

So the funding should address the applications.

MR. WAKEHAM:

But there is a dollar-value max on it?

MS. MULLALEY:

Correct.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Once the max is gone, that's it; you're basically waiting –

MS. MULLALEY:

Correct. Yes, the problem then will close for the year.

MR. WAKEHAM:

– until the following year.

Normally, how many people would you go through in the run of a year in terms of

applications? What's the normal type of volume of activity you would see and the

average cost of that? Is it possible to get it by region?

MS. MULLALEY:

Yes.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay.

MR. TIZZARD:

The average grant in '19-'20 was $4,251. The total grants given out were 780

under the Provincial Home Repair Program.

MR. WAKEHAM:

And we can get, again, a breakdown by region?

MR. TIZZARD:

Yeah.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay.

Is there a current wait-list available for housing by region?

MS. MULLALEY:

Yes.

MR. WAKEHAM:

What is the total current wait-list?

MS. MULLALEY:

Again, that's the number I would have referenced earlier: 1,486 is the full

wait-list.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay, that's the wait-list. We can get that by region?

MS. MULLALEY:

Absolutely.

MR. WAKEHAM:

How many units do you have in total in the province now?

MS. MULLALEY:

In total for Housing, there are 5,575. That's our NLHC units.

MR. WAKEHAM:

5,575?

MS. MULLALEY:

Correct.

MR. WAKEHAM:

And they would be broken down between one bedroom and two bedrooms. Can we get a

breakdown of what that might look like?

MS. MULLALEY:

(Inaudible.)

MR. WAKEHAM:

Also, how many of those 5,575 units are fully accessible?

MS. MULLALEY:

particularly given our demographics and the aging population here. At this point

in time, the stats we would have are over 500 visitable units, which, of course,

are things like the zero-step entry. There's a lot of work as we're in doing

maintenance in the various units, there will be work done on accessible features

as in grab bars and different things. We do have a list of units that we would

have those in.

From a perspective of, I guess, priority-wise over the next two years, we do

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing units, themselves. From the prior investment

in affordable housing calls, we would have required one in 10 units across the

province when we do that. There are 282 accessible units through the affordable

housing program.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Were all the funds allocated to the PHRP spent last year?

MS. MULLALEY:

They're fully committed, I would say to you.

The funds would have been committed. What happens is there's a process to do

inspections and those sorts of things so some of the ones from last year would

still be being finalized from, I guess, a cash flow out to clients, but they

certainly would have been fully committed.

MR. WAKEHAM:

say we're going to convert this number of units per year or is there a goal that

you set? How do you go about determining how many you're able to do in any given

year? Is it just a dollar value that you have, if one costs more that means

something else can't get done?

MS. MULLALEY:

We do have the $1.5 million allocated. The work that's happening under the

modernization and improvement plan, which is done in consultation with all the

regional offices, they would look at a priority, I guess, from a perspective of

what's in most need of maintenance and we look at how we would best spend that

$1.5 million integrated into that plan.

MR. WAKEHAM:

I'm just wondering how many of your units in terms of age – what's the average

age of your units?

MS. MULLALEY:

I know that overall it's quite an aging portfolio. It's between 40 and 60 years.

Average age –

MR. WAKEHAM:

I guess, I'm getting to the point at what stage does it become – does it make

sense not to be spending money on renovating but rather spending money on new?

How do you make that determination when you evaluate a particular unit? Is that

a process that you go through?

MS. MULLALEY:

What I would say is, yes, there is certainly a cost-benefit analysis to those

aspects. What's really key, I guess, with the federal government and under the

National Housing Strategy, a very important pillar for them, and outcomes was to

ensure that there are such significant investments made in the stock across

Canada for many, many years that it was really important to be able to sustain

that stock.

There are a couple of very key elements to that National Housing Strategy and

targets. There is a baseline that we've all agreed to. That's over the 5,500 for

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, and they have to be sustained. Funding comes

with that to help us bring those up and continue to ensure that they are

available, affordable options for low-income clients.

There are also targets for maintenance and there's also funding attached to

that. There are expansion targets as well. Under the National Housing Strategy

and the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing's three-year action plan is very much

focused on preserving and sustaining and maintaining that stock, so there are

going to be some significant investments in our housing stock in the coming

years.

MR. WAKEHAM:

How many on average do you dispose of on an annual basis?

MS. MULLALEY:

I think there's –

MR. WARR:

I don't know about disposing. Of the 5,575 units, there are 335 vacant units. As

of September 25, 2020, we have available for rent 66 units with selections

completed; 134 units with selections pending; and units with no demand, there

are 13, for a total units available for rent of 213.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay, I'll come back to that answer after, because I think my time has ran out.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

If I could just pause for a second here. We have a little technical issue here,

in terms of protocol.

I guess, in the meantime while we're resolving this, I'll turn to the Member for

St. John's Centre, Mr. Dinn, please.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

I'll start with some general questions, I guess. Actually, that's probably what

it's going to be anyway. It's a very short page.

In April 2019, the provincial government signed a 10-year cost-sharing agreement

with the federal government under the National Housing Strategy. In general,

$271 million will be spent on repairs, construction to community and social

housing and making it more affordable.

Could the minister outline how some of this money has been spent to date, which

organizations or companies will be receiving the money and for which projects?

MS. MULLALEY:

The action plan started in '18-'19 and '19-'20, so we're through those years.

The majority of the funding, because the funding does start to escalate over the

time frame, so the early years of the funding has primarily been spent on

modernization and improvements and repairs to the units. Also, the home repair

programs were another key element of that.

MR. J. DINN:

Is it possible, then, to have even a breakdown of how that money exactly was

spent and which organizations or companies will be receiving money, if that's

possible, and for which projects? I don't know if you have that there now.

MS. MULLALEY:

Yes, so I don't believe there are any specific organizations. I'm just looking

to Mike.

MR. TIZZARD:

At this stage, as Julia said, how the funding escalates, there wouldn't be any

companies or organizations that would receive funding at this point. The

majority of the funding has been spent on individual home repair programs and to

fund our expansion, the eight units that are being rebuilt on Froude Avenue

right now. That's probably the biggest project that's been done to date.

MR. J. DINN:

The units on Froude Avenue, who would be doing that construction?

MR. ABBOTT:

It's a local contractor. I can't remember his name right now, but it's a local

contractor from the St. John's area.

MR. J. DINN:

I guess that's what I'm looking for, is the breakdown of contractors such as who

would get the contracts, please.

Last week we read the news about a litany of horrendous problems that people of

Spencer Street are facing in St. John's. Unfortunately, theirs is not the only

street in the neighbourhood – I think of Allan Square in mine – in this province

and other areas facing such problems. Could the minister give us an update on

how government plans to deal with the endemic property crime and other issues

facing local residents?

MS. MULLALEY:

One of the key elements, I think, on all of these particular issues,

acknowledging those issues are complex issues and I think it takes a lot of

community partners, municipalities, government and organizations and

cross-governmental, Department of Health and others. It's very much a

collaborative effort to address this really a systemic issue here in the city.

Our Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, specifically, if we are aware of

particular units, we do provide a rent sub – Spencer Street is not one. We do

not have any units or subsidize any units on Spencer Street. Nonetheless, it's

still an important issue to be part of any ongoing discussion on that.

I guess the other thing I would say is that, very key – and I think you would

have been a part of the discussions around Bond Street, because of very, very

similar issues. I think what we're very much focused on in Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing is to ensure that we establish and recently we were successful

working with The Gathering Place on a low-barrier shelter, because a very key

element for us is to ensure improved client outcomes by ensuring there's a

staffed sheltered response and diverting out of private operator shelters that

are unstaffed. That's a key aspect of this as well.

In the meantime, if there are units or any issues going on where we are

specifically involved, we do deal with those on a case-by-case basis, working

with various departments.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

I understand it's complex, but at the same time, so it doesn't turn into just

simply pushing people onto another neighbourhood, I think it's got to be

addressed so that neighbours are protected, as well as the people who are

vulnerable are protected.

This question I think my colleague asked, but I'll ask it again in a different

way: Basically, how long is the waiting list for housing units? I believe the

number that was given was 1,486.

MS. MULLALEY:

Correct.

MR. J. DINN:

I'm just wondering: What's the wait time? To clear this up, to eventually get

these people housed, what are we looking at here? It's a significant number and

I would assume that's across the province.

MS. MULLALEY:

Yes, that is across the province. I would say that's a number that we've seen

for a number of years. Unfortunately, as you often place people, there are other

people coming on a wait-list. It depends on the time. Again, there are priority

codes that help prioritize individuals on wait-lists, like victims of family

violence, homeless, unsheltered. There are different wait codes as well that

help to prioritize, so it really depends on individual circumstance how long

you're on a wait-list, and certainly the very largest group we do have on a

wait-list is from an affordability perspective. So every case will vary, but as

you see some moving off, you do see some moving on.

I guess what I would say, again, is a key element of the National Housing

Strategy is certainly to expand affordable housing options here in our province

as well. We are also working with CMHC, our federal counterpart now, on another

stream, a third and final stream, under this National Housing Strategy. It's on

a rental assistance benefit. The intent is certainly to increase the number of

accessible and affordable housing units. So that is something we're continuing

to work hard on to finalize.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

I'll ask the question: Where would the majority of those 1,486 people waiting

for housing be? Would it be in the metro area? What portion of that would – 50

per cent, 60 per cent?

MR. WARR:

Of the 1,486 there are 840 here in the Avalon, 14 for Marystown, 109 for Gander

area, 227 for Grand Falls, 166 in the Corner Brook area, 59 in Stephenville and

71 in Goose Bay.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you, Minister.

I think my colleague asked for a breakdown by region, so we sort of got that.

I'm just wondering if we could also have a breakdown of the number on the

understand it also, we probably have a lot of people who are so-called

overhoused at this point in time, living in homes that are way too big for them.

As a side note, is there any attempt now to maybe, in some cases we're seeing

overhoused in large houses, maybe break them into smaller units so that you can

house individuals?

MS. MULLALEY:

Yes, there was a lot of work completed on that particular issue, knowing that

our demand is a much smaller unit now versus or wait-list – what our

availability of bedroom counts. There is, I guess, some work that was completed

to identify, again, based on bedroom count and looking at our wait-list. We're

looking at options for which units are probably the best to reconfigure because

they can be quite expensive to reconfigure to and there's very much a

cost-benefit analysis in reconfiguring versus building new as well. There's been

work done on that.

As part of the strategy, I guess, moving forward to look on where we're

investing, we are looking at opportunities to reconfigure. I think importantly

one of the other elements we're looking at, from a perspective of use of the

units, is that we're working with community partners as well to see where there

are opportunities to use units in a different way. For example, we do work with

Choices for Youth and we have a number of units here in the metro area that they

do use to support their programs. Similarly, we have some other units across the

province.

We're continuing to work with community groups to repurpose those units. COVID

was another example where we were able to look at some community groups in Lab

West and Corner Brook as well, to work on options to utilize the units for that

purpose as well.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

Just one other question – well, something to include with the breakdown. Also

the family units, whether it's single, that kind of information would be useful.

How many units currently lie vacant and what are the reasons for these

vacancies? I think you said you have a total of 5,575, correct? How many of

those units are vacant and the reasons for those?

MR. WARR:

Vacant units actually were 335.

MR. J. DINN:

Three hundred and thirty-five.

MR. WARR:

Yes.

MR. J. DINN:

And the reasons for that? Is that just a matter of funding or …?

MR. WARR:

I guess depending on the location as well. There are certainly units with no

demand, units with selections pending. I mentioned that units with selections

completed are 66. These are units that are available for rent. Units with

selections pending are 134 and units with no demand were 13, for a total units

available for rent of 213.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

AN HON. MEMBER:

(Inaudible.)

MR. J. DINN:

Oh, sorry.

Chair, I'll just stop there until my next chance. I only have about 10 seconds.

CHAIR:

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Dinn.

Before we continue, it's come to my attention that I understand that Mr. Pardy,

the Member for Bonavista, had been identified as being the lead for the Official

Opposition in terms of asking questions. So you've swapped with the Member for

Stephenville - Port au Port. I understand that. One little error we did at the

start was the allocated time should have been – well, first of all, we should

have just agreed that was what was going to happen, but we hadn't received

notice. I just need leave from the Committee that we're going to proceed with

Mr. Wakeham to be the lead for the Official Opposition.

Unless I see any objections, we'll carry on. Is that correct, Clerk?

CLERK:

Close enough.

CHAIR:

Yes, close enough.

All right, if no objections, we'll carry on as we are.

I understand Mr. Pardy from Bonavista will be observing.

Okay, Mr. Dwyer.

MR. DWYER:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I know the question was asked around vacancies and stuff, but do you have an

average wait time? Is it a month, two months or three months?

MS. MULLALEY:

Again, I know it very much depends on the case-by-case basis. But I will turn it

to anyone if we know. Anybody else? No. Sometimes it varies so much from

individuals because they are all prioritized based on different codes.

MR. DWYER:

Okay.

When somebody fills out an application to move into housing, is there any kind

of expiry date or any way of reassessing the application over time?

MS. MULLALEY:

There is a 12-month period, but in more recent years to, again, improve client

services, there is a notice that goes out several months in advance of the

12-month expiry to notify the client to see if there are any changes in

circumstances and/or if they want to continue to stay on the wait-list if

they're still there.

MR. DWYER:

Is that just for a new applicant, or is it like –?

MS. MULLALEY:

That's anybody who is on the wait-list.

MR. DWYER:

So everybody gets reassessed every year?

MS. MULLALEY:

If they're on the wait-list for more than the 12 months.

MR. DWYER:

I mean, if somebody fills out an application and is approved for housing, does

that get assessed anymore after that, or once you are approved you have housing

for life?

MS. MULLALEY:

Once you're actually in a unit, you mean?

MR. DWYER:

Yeah.

MS. MULLALEY:

Yes, generally, it's based on a person's income once you're in the unit.

MR. DWYER:

How often is that followed up on?

MS. MULLALEY:

Again, that varies. Our clients who are more fixed income are reassessed every

three years, because it's a fixed income. Otherwise, it's generally annually.

MR. DWYER:

Okay, thank you.

Were there any evictions last year?

MS. MULLALEY:

There would have been – is there any last year?

OFFICIAL:

(Inaudible.)

MS. MULLALEY:

No. Okay. No, there is a new eviction prevention policy that the corporation

implemented in the past year.

MR. DWYER:

If we could get a copy of that new policy that would be good.

MS. MULLALEY:

Sure.

MR. DWYER:

As my colleague alluded to about the age of some of our housing units, is there

any propensity to sell the older units to people that are probably able to

utilize them that are utilizing them already? Probably sell them to them in some

kind of way so that we can generate revenue to build new units?

MS. MULLALEY:

Just to clarify, if someone is a tenant in our unit, selling that to the tenant,

is that what you're referencing?

MR. DWYER:

Yes.

MS. MULLALEY:

No, the program in the corporation continues to maintain the units for the

benefit of the full population. I guess I would say the exception is in if

there's a unit and there's a vacancy in areas that there is no demand, sometimes

there may be a sale of that particular unit.

MR. DWYER:

Okay.

MS. MULLALEY:

But, generally, there's no policy to sell units to tenants.

MR. DWYER:

Okay. Probably explains the age of the infrastructure we have, right?

Also, with emergency shelters, which are very important to homelessness and

housing, are there standards for the owners to follow?

MS. MULLALEY:

There are, I guess, operating procedures and there are inspections that were

completed on the Emergency Shelter Program from when it was transferred over to

Housing.

I'm just going to pause and ask if there are any other elements on the shelters.

MS. THOMAS:

(Inaudible.)

CHAIR:

Okay, I'll need somebody to speak to a mic.

Okay, Melanie.

MS. THOMAS:

Sure, sorry.

Yes, when the program migrated to Housing in 2018 we introduced a number of

processes to strengthen inspections and certainly to have a better understanding

of the private operators. We currently have an inspection process in place with

the city, as well, with respect to ensuring adherence to life-safety standards

as well.

MR. DWYER:

Okay.

How often do the inspections happen? Are they every month, every six months?

MS. THOMAS:

As required. If there are issues that are brought to our attention, we will

certainly initiate an inspection at that moment and certainly endeavour to do

annual inspections within the private sphere.

MR. DWYER:

Okay.

Is there any propensity to shorten that time and have inspections every six

months, we'll say?

MS. THOMAS:

I think as needed. If there was certainly increased pressure or concerns that

were raised in terms of operations within a particular environment, we would

certainly look to do a more prompt inspection.

MR. DWYER:

What's the average price of an emergency shelter per night now?

MR. TIZZARD:

A private shelter right now it's about $125 a night.

MR. DWYER:

Okay.

If somebody has to utilize an emergency shelter, how long would they be allowed

to stay at the emergency shelter before moving on to other housing or being

protected somewhere else?

MR. TIZZARD:

That would depend on a case-by-case basis. These individuals are extremely

complex in the issues they're facing, so I mean, it could be someone with three

nights; it could be someone with a month. It depends. But we have with Melanie's

group, housing support workers, who get in and try to help out the people,

assess their case and come up with a housing plan to help them move on.

MR. DWYER:

So if somebody stays there for a month you pay $120 a night? Or is there a

better rate or anything like that?

MR. TIZZARD:

Initially if it's $125 a night and once we get a housing support worker to help

them out, we'll come up with a plan and if it's a long-term plan – our ultimate

goal would be to move someone to a supported shelter if they're going to need

that month or longer and to get one of our community partners to help them out.

If their only availability would be a private shelter, we would enter into a

longer term rate with that shelter provider which would hopefully, in most

cases, bring it down.

MR. DWYER:

Okay. Just the last question, Mr. Chair.

Are most repairs carried out by the maintenance staff of Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing or is there anything contracted out?

MR. TIZZARD:

It's a mix. In the Avalon region we have maintenance crews who do maintenance on

all our units in all of them. When you get to more rural areas where we don't

have crews, you'd see more contracted-out maintenance.

MR. DWYER:

Okay.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Mr. Dinn.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

Just carrying on with the number of – I guess looking at renovations, first.

My colleague just touched on that. How many renovations were completed last

year? Renovations and/or maintenance, but renovations, in particular, of

housing.

MR. TIZZARD:

The way the note is written is the last three years: From '17-'18 through

'19-'20, we performed 995 interior renovations on our 5,575 units. Over the same

time period, we did exterior renovations to 2,006 units for a total of $25.7

million on the exterior, and the interior was $8.8 million over that three-year

period.

MR. J. DINN:

How many are projected to be completed and opened up this year?

MR. WARR:

In '20-'21, $3.6 million is allocated for 40 capital improvement projects, which

is 260 units throughout the province.

MR. J. DINN:

The last question on that area is – and you just said, I think, there's a

mixture of private contractors and the government: Would it be possible to have

a list of the contractors who perform work, who receive contracts to do work for

the government, or to do these renovations? Especially since we know, what

you're telling me, we have $3.6 million, 40 projects, translating into 260 units

over the next year. It would be great to have a breakdown as to who's received

the contracts, please.

I think you've talked a little bit already about the number that were made

accessible, about 500 that were made visitable. More or less, you have $1.5

the other term that goes around. When it comes to converting houses or

renovating homes so that they are universal design, any breakdown of that?

Visiting is one thing, but if someone is now going to live in a place there has

to be some renovations to make it habitable for them, such as the bars on the

shower and so on and so forth.

MS. MULLALEY:

We do have a listing there of, say, accessible features, like the different grab

bars and so on and so forth, which is over 1,200 in our units right now. I think

from a universal design perspective, which is very important, I think the focus

moving forward is to focus particularly on the investments coming from the

National Housing Strategy, which, again, is provincial and federal, during the

expansion side of it as well, accessible units and universal design are very key

elements of that.

full universal design aspect, but again the focus will be continuing to increase

the ability to do that in the years coming up through the funding.

MR. J. DINN:

Just to clarify, the numbers we're talking about here do not include homes and

housing units owned by not-for-profit organizations, Saint Vincent de Paul, or

Stella Burry or any of these, right? This is just totally – and St. John's

housing, I guess we're complementing that as well. That doesn't include any of

the units owned by St. John's housing, right? That's not factored into these

equations?

MS. MULLALEY:

No.

MR. J. DINN:

Is there any attempt to coordinate efforts with St. John's housing when it comes

to dealing with the housing issue so that a person, for example, as we find

right now, anyone who's in Newfoundland and Labrador Housing is not necessarily

eligible for housing units in St. John's housing. Sometimes if there's that

flexibility it actually would allow for us, in my district, to resolve some

issues. But is there any attempt to find some way to coordinate that?

MS. MULLALEY:

There was some work completed, actually, a study that was done through the City

of St. John's and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing to explore that particular

issue to see if there's some way that we can work together so that there's kind

of one wait-list. Some of that work has been done. I think discussions in that

area probably haven't happened in the last little while, but it's probably an

issue that needs to be explored.

MR. J. DINN:

Well, it certainly will do no harm. I think that coordination would be useful.

According to the Office of the Seniors' Advocate, a growing number of seniors

are living in substandard conditions or are facing climbing homelessness. I've

seen that for myself.

Does the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation have any targeted plans

to address the root causes of this problem for seniors?

MS. MULLALEY:

I guess a key aspect of that would be our home repair programs. Predominantly,

the home repair programs are very much seniors' programs, particularly in rural

areas of the province. It's very high. I think it's 90 …

OFFICIAL:

Ninety-eight.

MS. MULLALEY:

Ninety-eight per cent. So it's very much in rural areas and it's very much

seniors.

I think that's a very key program we offer. I think, equally, we do have a

number, as well, supported by our Newfoundland and Labrador Housing units. Our

rent sub is another area that has a significant number of seniors as well,

because that really, traditionally, was started as a program to allow single

individuals, seniors, to move into units.

A lot of the programs: the Home Energy Savings Program; you're probably aware of

the Home Modification Program for accessibly, it's a very key program for our

seniors in our rural areas as well; and the Energy Efficiency program as well.

There are programs that help to support low-income seniors who are homeowners,

but also, equally, there are programs to support from a rental perspective in

our units and in our subsidized rental subs as well.

MR. J. DINN:

Would you be able to give a breakdown of the number of portable rent subsidies?

Is there an attempt or a plan to make them all portable so that lie within the

control of the renter and not the landlord?

MS. MULLALEY:

There was a pilot project completed on portability. There were about 100 units

that we designated, or supplements that we designated, so there is an evaluation

done, which we're currently reviewing now as we're moving forward, looking at

the work with the CMHC on the federal housing benefit program as well, which is

a portable program.

MR. J. DINN:

Would it be possible to have the results on that shared with us as well when

that's available, please? Thank you.

You mentioned the Home Modification Program, I'm just wondering how many people

availed of that last year. Is there a wait-list and what is the budget for this

program for the 2020-21 year?

MS. MULLALEY:

The Home Modification Program in itself is about $2.3 million. That's part of

our broader home repair programs, so that is the budget that we set aside for

that. Depending, then, on the wait-list and how many people apply, you may have

some move in from the Provincial Home Repair Program. It's $2.3 million for the

current year.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay. And is there a wait-list?

MS. MULLALEY:

Again, not at this point because the program applications are still being

accepted and they are being processed.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

How many households availed of the Home Energy Savings Program last year and how

much is budgeted for this year? Is it to be phased out in the near future?

MS. MULLALEY:

The Home Energy Savings Program budget for the current year is $4.1 million.

There's $2 million set aside for the electrically heated homes and there's an

additional $2.1 million set aside for oil-heated homes.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

How many households availed of it last year?

MR. WARR:

Four hundred and seventy.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

At this point, any plans to phase it out or is this still a going concern?

MS. MULLALEY:

I guess all I can speak to, certainly, is there's a budget there for it and

these particular home energy savings programs are a component of the current

home repair programs.

MR. J. DINN:

Sounds like a good answer. Thank you.

Very quickly, regarding Supportive Living Program, community partnerships,

Provincial Homelessness Fund, what is the budget for these programs in 2021 and

will there be funds for new supportive housing units in 2021, for this year?

MS. THOMAS:

The Supportive Living Program currently has a budget of $7.6 million.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Mr. Dinn.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Any further questions?

Mr. Wakeham.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Yes, just to follow up from my colleague: The Home Energy Savings Program, last

year were all of the funds allocated?

MS. MULLALEY:

Yes, they were. Again, some of the applications are still being processed, but

the applications –

MR. WAKEHAM:

The Home Repair Program and those other ones you mentioned, they're not

allocated by region in terms of a dollar budget; they're allocated by province,

so anybody can apply at any time and go through the same process.

MS. MULLALEY:

Absolutely.

MR. WAKEHAM:

I'm interested in the word overhoused. It's an interesting word. I'm wondering

how many of your current tenants would you consider to be overhoused?

MS. MULLALEY:

I don't have that particular number here on me now.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Would it be 5 per cent, 10 per cent, 20 per cent? Is it a problem, I guess, I'm

trying to get at. If it is a problem, what's the significance of it?

MS. MULLALEY:

Well, I think from a perspective of when we're using the language overhoused, it

would be based on the number of individuals in the household versus the number

of bedrooms available. It gets back to, I guess, the whole issue of we want to

ensure that we're able to use the housing portfolio the most effective way we

can. Part of that would be if there are some other options on addressing and

reconfiguring units or using them for a different purpose, it's important for us

to always look at that from that perspective.

MR. WAKEHAM:

That's exactly why I'm asking the question. If you're overhousing people, then

the idea of trying to make those renovations or accommodations because lots of

people will ask for – less bedrooms, perhaps, then are available.

I notice there it was given that there are 335 vacant units and what's the

reason why those units are vacant. How many of them are because of repair

issues? How many of them are because of overhoused units? What's the breakdown?

With 1,486 people on a wait-list, we have 335 vacant units. I'm just curious as

to why they would be vacant.

MR. WARR:

I mentioned earlier on about the units with selections completed and selections

pending and no demand. Also, to add to that, we have units that are unavailable

for rent. What I had mentioned in the beginning was available for rent, but

units unavailable for rent, as of September 25, 2020, there were 109 which

needed major repairs; there were 10 used for emergency housing. One was a sale

pending, and two were units unavailable for rent and they were used as office

space, for a total number of 122.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay.

Of the 109 waiting for repairs, would they be part of your budgeted for this

year? Would they be on the list to be repaired, or are they not going to be

repaired? What's your plan for those 109 units?

MS. MULLALEY:

Of the 109, they wouldn't address the 109. Some of those are in areas where we

continue to look at demand, but we would not have funding for the 109, per se.

What we are doing, I guess, is looking at the 109 and looking at the particular

areas now. There's an assessment under way in Paul's shop of looking at, of the

109 that need major repairs, how much would it cost to do those, because some of

those units would need a full condition assessment. Some of that work is

happening.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Which goes back to the original questions around the whole cost-benefit

analysis. But of the 109 units that are now non-accessible with 1,486 people on

the list, you're going to look at and see how many of those people waiting would

actually be in that area? The units that are vacant may not match up with the

vacancies or the people in demand.

MS. MULLALEY:

Absolutely. That's correct.

MR. WAKEHAM:

I understand that. So that work's been ongoing.

MS. MULLALEY:

48 requests for mobility, some modifications.

MR. WAKEHAM:

How much?

MS. MULLALEY:

We have four transfer requests.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Right.

MS. MULLALEY:

And 48 requests with some modifications being requested, not a full accessible

but …

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay. Really only 52 of the 1,486.

MS. MULLALEY:

That's existing. The four requests, that would be someone is already in the

unit.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Right.

If you don't have it here, you can get it.

MS. MULLALEY:

On the wait-list looking for accessible, it's 28.

MR. WAKEHAM:

How much again, sorry?

MS. MULLALEY:

Twenty-eight.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Twenty-eight are waiting, okay.

Then the last couple of questions I have: Does the department do any

inspections, site assessments, period visits to these homes once they're

occupied?

MS. MULLALEY:

Our own units?

MR. WAKEHAM:

Yes.

MS. MULLALEY:

From our perspective of the tenant themselves, if there are any particular

concerns around the unit, there is a process that they would contact the

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. Then someone is sent out to look

at the unit.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Similar to any landlord-tenant arrangement.

MS. MULLALEY:

Correct.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay.

In terms of the income assessment, how you determine the rate they pay, is it

based on gross income or net income?

OFFICIAL:

Net income.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Net income, that's after the tax and everything is – okay, good.

Finally, for me, can we get a detailed list of the salary Estimates?

MR. WARR:

Sure.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Anyone else?

Mr. Dinn.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair. I don't have many.

How many supportive housing units are there in this province and would it be

possible to have a breakdown by region?

MS. MULLALEY:

We can certainly provide you anything that Newfoundland and Labrador Housing has

funded.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay, thank you.

Would that include again, organizations that have received government funding

for setting up supportive or affordable housing units, as well? Would that be

part of that number?

MS. MULLALEY:

Yes, anything that we would have funded.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

Regarding emergency accommodations and transition house funding, non-profits

that manage emergency shelters and transition houses, what is the budget for

these programs in 2021? Would it be possible to have a regional breakdown in

spending and the number of organizations receiving funds under this program?

MS. MULLALEY:

For the emergency housing program the budget is $4.6 million for the current

year, and for the transition houses it's $8.8 million.

MR. J. DINN:

$8.8 million, thank you.

Just a few follow-up questions. The RFP for a permanent solution to the

low-barrier shelters by 2021 – I think the minister mentioned this in his

opening statement – I'm just wondering how this is going to proceed. We've had a

conversation on this already, not-for-profit versus for-profit emergency

shelters. My very strong feeling is that a lot of the issues we have are because

we have it in the hands of for-profit organizations.

I'm just wondering where the emphasis will be? Will this be coordinated through

End Homelessness or is this thrown out there for all groups to try to get a

piece of the pie? I'm just trying to figure out how this is going to work. Will

the emphasis be on not-for-profits or will it be on for-profits?

MS. MULLALEY:

So the RFP, as you had indicated, has gone out publicly. It was released

publicly several months ago. It closes at the end of October, so we're looking

forward to receiving proposals on that. A well-needed solution here, for sure,

in the city.

From a perspective of some of the elements of the RFP, I think very core

elements of that would've been experience in providing shelter services and

services to complex clients. There are a lot of provisions in there for how this

would be a successful model, and based on looking at the policies and

harm-reduction aspects and others. I don't know if you wanted to add anything,

Melanie, but I guess from that perspective certainly we feel quite confident in

the elements of the RFP from that perspective.

From a governance side, the RFP will come back and there is a committee with

Housing and Eastern Health and the Department of Health and Community Services

as well and some discussions. We provided the RFP to End Homelessness St. John's

to review, to ensure that they felt it was a good proposal containing all the

key elements. They would have looked at that proposal and provided us feedback,

which we incorporated. We are also working with them again as proposals come

back to ensure there are a couple of very key elements for End Homelessness St.

John's in areas of the proposal, such as coordinated access. We'll again engage

with them in discussions.

MR. J. DINN:

Before Melanie – I don't mean to interrupt you, but my key thing is that what

you're looking for here in this, I'm understanding, is that there's going to be

a clear proposal for the supports. This is not simply, here, we need a place to

warehouse or house people. We're looking for the full-meal deal, wraparound

services, whatever you want to call it, to provide supports to the people so

that something like Bond Street won't happen, that the people who are put in

these homes are looked after and that neighbours are safe, but also there's a

response to the needs of people who are living in the homes, correct?

MS. MULLALEY:

Absolutely. The proposal, certainly, it's all the key elements of what you would

expect in a low-barrier emergency shelter and the supports on the staffing model

that would go with that model. So it's an overnight shelter, again, that we are

looking for, but it would be a staffed model.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

MS. MULLALEY:

With the right experience and training.

MS. THOMAS:

The only thing I would add to that would be that during the summer months we

undertook a fairly extensive consultation with those non-profit providers

engaged in the housing and homelessness sector to better understand their

current contributions and expertise, but also any acknowledged gaps that may

exist with respect to the services along the homelessness spectrum. I think that

we've really seized the opportunity to understand what currently exists within

the non-profit sphere and the expertise and how do we better devise and design a

response that fits the current gaps that exist.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

A final question, Chair, I had, it's sort of an omnibus question in some ways.

It has to do with the attrition plan and the people through attrition the

positions that would be eliminated through that process. I'm going to tie it in

with the maintenance and the renovations of the housing projects and whether we

have enough staff to do the work we need to do and that maybe attrition is not

the right way to go, especially with the number of units we have.

I'll use this quick example of a person in my district who a year ago had

complained about a leaking water tap in the bathroom. A year later it hadn't

been repaired, to the point where the ceiling collapsed from moisture. I guess,

let's say, a two-hour visit from a plumber turned into a major renovation piece

as well, so more or less we're being penny-wise and pound foolish.

I'm just wondering: Do we have enough staff? My constituency assistant can tell

you, in trying to get the repairs, sometimes it's difficult to get people to do

it because they're stretched thin. To me, hire the people you need to do the

job, but I'm just wondering if you care to comment on that, please.

MS. MULLALEY:

I guess what I would say from my perspective, certainly as CEO of Housing,

looking at the attrition target is we do look at each of the vacancies as they

arise. As we're looking at those vacancies, we would make sure that it's not

impacting client-service delivery. From a budget perspective, the budgets for

the M and I and the maintenance are always fully utilized and we do have staff.

In cases, in some rural areas, sometimes in certain situations or if our staff

are quite busy and we want to make sure that we're continuing along with planned

maintenance and requests, we would contract individuals at that time.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay, thank you, Chair.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Any further questions? Yes, Mr. Wakeham.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Just two quick ones. If someone is in a three-bedroom unit because of family

size and family size decreases because people move out, are they moved out of

the unit then?

MS. MULLALEY:

No.

MR. WAKEHAM:

They just stay there?

MS. MULLALEY:

Yes.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Okay.

I just want a point of clarification on the 109 units that are in need of

significant repairs. Did I hear you correct? There's no money in the budget to

do any of those repairs?

MS. MULLALEY:

No. I think the question was around are we addressing those 109. There is a

maintenance and improvement plan to address the units in itself. I don't know if

any of it connects to the 109. I'd have to look back at the maintenance plan.

What I was indicating is that there is some work happening currently in Paul

Abbott's shop, who's in charge of the regional service delivery, to understand

where all those units are. We know where they are, but what type of work and

which ones will we assess even from a condition assessment point.

There are some where we know there is demand. I'll just throw an example: Lab

West, we know there is a demand and we know we have some major repairs. We're

looking at that and trying to assess the cost to do that and then we'll look at

that compared to the priorities across the province.

MR. WAKEHAM:

I guess what I was trying to get it is in the budget that you have presented to

us, knowing that you have 109 units that cannot be occupied for a number of

reasons related to repairs, how many of those units are you intending to make

functional in this fiscal year? Is there a number that you've looked at? Have

you done those assessments already? Because your budget is here, so if the money

is not here, where is it going to come from?

MS. MULLALEY:

There is a full, I guess, maintenance plan for the entire province on particular

units. I'm just not sure if we know if there are any on the list of 109 at this

point.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Right.

MS. MULLALEY:

That's something I can take a look at for you.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Absolutely. You can certainly get back to me. My only other question would be:

You will not move monies from the programs related to seniors and others who are

filing applications for improvements to their houses and move it to this

particular area. That's what I'm trying to get at; this is a different pot.

MS. MULLALEY:

That's absolutely correct.

MR. WAKEHAM:

This is a different pot.

MS. MULLALEY:

Yes, it's a very different pot. For us, the key priority moving forward is –

with the opportunity, with the increased funding coming from the National

Housing Strategy and very particular targets on expansion, repair and

preservation, it's now the key opportunity to look at where the right areas are

to invest in a longer term plan.

MR. WAKEHAM:

How many units, then, do you effectively discard because they're no longer

repairable? Do you have an average per year that you do that with? Is there a

number? Is it five units that are considered to be forget it, it's not worth our

while and you just sell them off? How do you make those decisions at the end of

the day?

MS. MULLALEY:

There were no units sold last year. Generally, again, they would only ever be

sold if the area has no demand historically and the unit is there. Often, even

in those areas, we will work with the communities and the municipality at the

time to see if there would be another interest in it for repurposing for another

particular purpose.

The sale of units is not something that we normally do, unless it's those types

of circumstances where a community, municipality doesn't want it, there's

historically no demand and someone approaches to look at it. That would be the

only case.

MR. WAKEHAM:

Mr. Chair, I just want to, on behalf of my colleagues, thank everybody from

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. It's nice to see some familiar faces again.

Thank you for the time and answering all the questions. We look forward to

getting some of the other information.

CHAIR:

Okay, no further questions? All right, I thank you very much.

I turn to the Clerk, then, to vote this section.

CLERK:

1.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 carry?

All those in favour,'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against,'nay.'

The motion is carried.

On motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CLERK:

The total.

CHAIR:

Shall the total carry?

All those in favour,'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

On motion, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, total heads, carried.

CHAIR:

Shall I report Estimates of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation

carried without amendment?

All those in favour,'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against,'nay.'

We are done.

On motion, Estimates of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation

carried without amendment.

CHAIR:

I would turn to the minister, if he had any final remarks regarding Newfoundland

and Labrador Housing.

MR. WARR:

Yes. Again, I enjoyed the hour and 15 that we've had. The staff of Newfoundland

and Labrador Housing, Mr. Chair, it's a very demanding job that they do day in,

day out. I appreciate the work of the staff. My short time here of two months as

minister, they've filled me with a head full of information. I certainly look

forward to my time with them and I thank them for this evening.

Thank you so much.

CHAIR:

Thank you all.

I'm going to ask that we take a 10-minute recess, enough time for the second

part of Minister Warr's team to show up. Then we'll do CSSD. Let's report back

here at 7:25 – 1925 hours. Thank you very much.

Recess

CHAIR:

I would like to welcome everybody back for these Estimates of the Department of

Children, Seniors and Social Development.

I think for the benefit of everyone we will recommence. We have just completed

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing. Let's start again with some opening remarks

and we'll have some introductions. First of all, I'm Perry Trimper. I'm the Lake

Melville MHA and I'm the Chair of the Social Services sector. I'm going to ask

Minister Warr and his team to please introduce themselves.

Please note that the way this is working with Broadcast is we are not recording

you visually, but we are using visual cues to find out who you are. Some of you

are not known perhaps as well as the MHAs. If there's an opportunity for you to

speak just please raise your hand or wave and we'll gesture to you. As the

questions go back and forth and someone is handling sort of an interchange your

mic will probably remain on, but watch and pause for the mic to come on and then

you can speak, please. The audio is recorded.

I'll start with Minister Warr's side, please.

MS. WALSH:

Susan Walsh, Deputy Minister.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

MR. WARR:

Brian Warr, Minister of Children, Seniors and Social Development.

MS. GOGAN:

Aisling Gogan, Assistant Deputy Minister, Policies and Programs.

MS. CLEMENS-SPURRELL:

Linda Clemens-Spurrell, Assistant Deputy Minister of Child and Youth Services

Branch.

MS. JONES:

Sharlene Jones, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services and Performance

Improvement.

MS. HUNT-GROUCHY:

Michelle Hunt-Grouchy, Director of Communications for Child, Youth and Family

Services.

MR. MARTIN:

Dave Martin, Departmental Controller.

MS. WHITE:

Kelly White, Executive Assistant to Minister Warr.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

I'll turn to my right. Mr. Dwyer, please.

MR. DWYER:

Jeff Dwyer, MHA for Placentia West - Bellevue and critic for CSSD.

MS. S. B. WALSH:

Susan Walsh, Researcher for the NDP caucus office.

MR. DINN:

Jim Dinn, MHA for St. John's Centre.

MR. RYAN:

Nathan Ryan, Political Support, office of the Official Opposition.

MR. YOUNG:

Carlson Young, Political Support, office of the Official Opposition.

MR. PARDY:

Craig Pardy, MHA, District of Bonavista.

MS. COADY:

Siobhan Coady, MHA, St. John's West.

MR. OSBORNE:

Tom Osborne, MHA, Waterford Valley.

MR. BRAGG:

Derrick Bragg, MHA, Fogo Island - Cape Freels.

CHAIR:

Back on the floor.

MR. KENT:

Steven Kent, Researcher with the NDP caucus.

CHAIR:

All right. Thank you all very much.

I will start with – oh, here's one straggler. I'll identify him as the MHA for

Fortune Bay - Cape La Hune, beautiful Fortune Bay - Cape La Hune, Mr. Loveless.

MR. LOVELESS:

Hear, hear!

CHAIR:

I'm going to turn it to Mr. Warr to invite him, first of all, to see if he has

any opening remarks.

MR. WARR:

I do, Chair, and thank you very much.

Good evening to all.

I certainly want to welcome the staff of Children, Seniors and Social

Development here this evening. Thank you all for participating in this year's

Estimates for the Department of Children, Seniors and Social Development.

The Department of Children, Seniors and Social Development has nine lines of

business: child protection, in-care, adoptions, youth services, youth

corrections, adult protection, persons with disabilities, seniors and aging and

poverty reduction. Through a wide variety of the department's policies, programs

and services, as well as through our role of supporting horizontal policy

development across government, we are able to support individuals, children,

youth, families, seniors, persons with disabilities and persons experiencing

poverty.

In my new portfolio I have had the opportunity to meet with many of the

department's staff at provincial offices, as well as begun to meet regional

staff with more regional office visits scheduled in the coming weeks. The

department's staff, the majority being social workers, are incredibly dedicated

and committed professionals working with children, youth and families throughout

the province. From working tirelessly to protect children and youth from

maltreatment, to collaborating with other government departments, agencies and

reduce poverty, as well as jointly protect adults from abuse. With the RHAs, my

staff are improving policies and service delivery for Newfoundlanders and

Labradorians.

I will provide a brief overview of the lines of business in the department.

Under child protection and children in care, we have strengthened our commitment

to being child and youth centred, family focused and culturally responsive

through the department's Children, Youth

and Families Act . The act also, where available and appropriate, requires

that services designed to maintain, support and preserve the family unit are

offered where it is in the best interest of the children and youth.

In addition, the Children, Youth and

Families Act has a number of provisions that ensure Indigenous children and

youth in care remain connected with their culture, including the requirement for

cultural connection plans and providing notification on significant measures to

Indigenous representatives. Through legislation and maintaining a positive

working relationship with the Indigenous governments and organizations, we can

collectively ensure the overall safety and protection of Indigenous children and

youth.

In Budget 2020 we have allocated

approximately $150,000 over the next 18 months to lead, in partnership with the

Nunatsiavut Government, an interdepartmental committee. This committee will

complete an analysis of the recommendations in the report of the Child and Youth

Advocate on child protection services to the Inuit children in the province,

A Long Wait for Change , and develop

potential options for government consideration.

Under adult protection, as a department we are also committed to ensuring the

safety of adults in neglectful or abusive situations through setting the policy

and legislative framework in the province. The

Adult Protection Act is a strong

piece of legislation that is successfully being implemented throughout the

province over the last five years, following the replacement of the previous

bill, the neglected adults act.

Just this past year, the department carried out its five-year statutory review

of the legislation. This review included an engagement process with a diverse

range of stakeholders throughout the province, including police, RHA staff,

Indigenous governments, community groups and the public. I am pleased to report

that the review of the Adult Protection

Act is currently being finalized and will enable us to further support and

protect vulnerable adults in the province through policy and legislative

amendments.

Seniors and aging: With respect to the department's Seniors and Aging Division,

our focus is on helping support seniors to age at home and in their communities.

This is why my department has several age-friendly programs and initiatives to

support seniors and older adults.

In Budget 2020 we are investing

$95,000 for the annual Newfoundland and Labrador age-friendly community grant

program. This grant program provides incorporated municipalities, Indigenous

governments and communities throughout our province with the opportunity to

obtain support in planning for population aging. We also have a grant program

for community transportation initiatives.

Budget 2020 is allocating $300,000 for the Newfoundland and Labrador

Community Transportation Program, which focuses on innovative and sustainable

projects that create more inclusive and accessible communities.

In addition, through Budget 2020 over

$200,000 will be provided for the Seniors' Social Inclusion Initiative to offer

funding to eligible 50-plus clubs for participation in community events, healthy

aging and mental health and well-being activities. We will continue to work

closely with the Newfoundland and Labrador 50+ Federation, SeniorsNL and my

Provincial Advisory Council on Aging and Seniors to support seniors and older

adults throughout Newfoundland and Labrador.

Under poverty reduction: During the COVID-19 pandemic a spotlight has been

focused on people living in poverty. Staff have been working closely with

community partners and people with lived experience to address concerns and meet

needs as they have arisen. Going forward, staff are reviewing existing actions

related to housing, food insecurity and poverty reduction. My department will be

leading the development of a renewed government-wide strategy to reduce poverty.

This will be done in consultation with stakeholders, experts and communities,

including people with lived experience of poverty.

Disability policy: Engaging persons with disabilities and those who speak on

their behalf through the department's Disability Policy Office is vital. We are

last year's very successful and inclusive engagement process, we are working

with my Provincial Advisory Council for the Inclusion of Persons with

Disabilities and other partners to clarify issues and the approach with

community.

This legislation will be a made-in-Newfoundland-and-Labrador approach to

breaking down and preventing barriers to create a truly inclusive province. This

important disability rights legislation will be rooted in the principle of the

United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. This

enabling legislation will allow us to develop and enforce standards that will

prevent, reduce and remove barriers for people with disabilities.

encourage inclusion in Budget 2020 .

This includes investing $400,000 for the Accessible Vehicle grant program and

the Accessible Taxi Grant Program. These grants help to adapt vehicles to be

accessible for personal use and to modify taxis to make them accessible. Other

grants include $250,000 for the capacity-building grants, which provide support

for capacity building or resource development projects within communities, and

$75,000 for inclusion grants to support community organizations to increase

In conclusion, these are just a few of the programs, services and initiatives

that are provided by the Department of Children, Seniors and Social Development.

There is truly great work happening as we take a lifespan approach to ensure the

safety, well-being and best interests of those we serve.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Dwyer, do you have any opening remarks or would you like to get started?

MR. DWYER:

Just a quick opening remark to say thank you very much for being here this

evening. We really appreciate you taking our questions. We know it's a very

vulnerable sector of the province.

From my perspective, as Minister Warr knows, we take care of a lot of things

outside the House. It's not a lot of topics that need to be discussed in the

House if they can be straightened up outside of the House. Some of the questions

I'll ask today is an opportunity for us to work on some new initiatives and

stuff like that with you, but to also bring it to your department's attention,

when it comes to our attention, of any flaws in the system.

So thank you very much for being here this evening.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you, Mr. Dwyer.

This evening we're going to proceed in three sections of the Estimates. I think

they're obvious, numbers one, two and three.

I'll turn to the Clerk to introduce the first heading.

CLERK:

1.1.01 to 1.2.03 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 through to 1.2.03 carry?

I turn to Mr. Dwyer first.

MR. DWYER:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just have some general questions to start, Minister Warr. Can we obtain a copy

of your briefing notes?

MR. WARR:

Yes.

MR. DWYER:

Or binder, I should say. Sorry.

MR. WARR:

Absolutely.

MR. DWYER:

Are you still applying zero-based budgeting?

MR. WARR:

Yes, we are.

MR. DWYER:

Are there any errors in the published Estimates book?

MR. WARR:

Not that I'm aware of.

MR. DWYER:

Is the attrition plan still being followed? If so, what are the changes for last

year and this year? How is it being measured?

MS. WALSH:

Yes, the attrition plan is still being followed. For this year, it's $101,000

that has been removed from our salary vote.

MR. DWYER:

Okay, thank you.

How many people are employed in the department?

MS. WALSH:

There are 125 positions within the department.

MR. DWYER:

How many retirements have occurred in the last year?

MS. WALSH:

That I'd have to get you. I don't know that number.

MR. DWYER:

How many vacancies are not filled in the department at this time?

MS. WALSH:

MR. DWYER:

How many positions have been eliminated and what are they?

MS. WALSH:

There have been 11 positions eliminated. I'd have to get you the details on what

exactly they are.

MR. DWYER:

Thank you. I'd appreciate that.

How many layoffs have occurred in the department in the last year?

MS. WALSH:

There haven't been any.

MR. DWYER:

Zero? How many new hires took place in the last year?

MS. WALSH:

That I'd have to get you as well. It would be a fairly high number.

MR. DWYER:

Okay.

How many contractual or short-term employees are in the department at this time?

MS. WALSH:

We have 37 temporary positions within the department, 31 of which are filled.

MR. DWYER:

Thank you,

What is the fiscal impact on moving Healthy Living, Sport and Recreation to

another department?

MS. WALSH:

Fiscal impact – I might pass that over to Sharlene.

MS. JONES:

It was approximately $15 million that was reduced from our budget and

transferred to the other two.

MR. DWYER:

Okay, thank you.

Did your department receive any funds from the contingency fund? If so, what was

it for?

MS. WALSH:

Yes, we did. We received $6 million and it was to assist us with the cost of

specialized care for children in care.

MR. DWYER:

Thank you.

Did your department receive any funds from the COVID fund?

MS. WALSH:

No, we didn't.

MR. DWYER:

Okay.

Just to go back to the vacancies that are not filled in the department

currently, you said 122. Would we be able to get a breakdown, province-wide, of

where those numbers lie in the province?

MS. WALSH:

Yes.

MR. DWYER:

Okay, thank you. I appreciate that.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Dinn.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

Again, I'll start off by saying thank you before my times run out and I don't

get to do that on record. Thank you very much for showing up here, especially

the minister's EA, who gets to sit through two sessions; our long-suffering EAs

and CAs, Chair.

I'll start with a few general questions, if that's all right, and we'll go from

there.

Back in late July, the minister's predecessor stated that the department was

meeting with their goal of 20 cases per child and youth social worker. Does this

number hold province-wide, especially given that there are significant numbers

of vacancies in some regions?

MS. WALSH:

Overall, the provincial total is 1-22. We have made significant gains in

Labrador. We are at the provincial total of 1-20 in Labrador; however, by virtue

of doing that, it's created some struggles for us on the Island with folks

taking positions there.

Our Central-West region is at 1-25 and our Metro region is at 1-21. Those

numbers fluctuate at any given time. Metro could be at 1-20 tomorrow; it might

be just we're filling a couple of positions. Metro doesn't tend to have problems

with filling positions.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

If I may ask, in the ratio of, let's say, 1-21, 1-22, how is that determined? I

could use the comparison to education, where sometimes we're told the ratio is

1-14 now. I know when that's factoring into it, it's factoring into whether it's

the administrators and all the other specialists, those who are at the school

board. The reality is, in the classroom, the numbers can be anywhere up to

30-plus students in a classroom.

I'm just wondering, when we're talking about the 1-22, are we actually talking

about each individual social worker has 20 cases and you are not factoring into

administration or anything like that.

MS. WALSH:

No, we are absolutely not. We are actually talking social workers. So we look at

the number of social workers we have employed, the number of files or cases that

we have opened, and the division is done solely by the number of social workers.

The model is such that it's one social worker for 20 files. One supervisor for

six social workers. Then, on average, one zone manager for six supervisors.

MR. J. DINN:

That's excellent. Got to get that model for education too, then.

I realize that any of the children, when social workers are involved, are

probably going to have challenging needs anyway, then. Is there any attempt that

– even within that you're going to have children with very complex needs; it's

going to have a range, I would assume. So is there an attempt – do you spread

the – when it looks at the composition of the caseload, or is it just strictly

numbers and where they happen to be?

MS. WALSH:

A supervisor, by virtue of knowing her social workers, given the small numbers,

does have a sense of what is the complexity of the cases that each social worker

has in their caseload. We are a generalist model in that we don't have – for the

most part, now, some, depending on the office, but for the most part a social

worker could have a situation of children in care, child protection, youth

corrections, programs, kinship services and some of these programs are not as

challenging as others, from the time commitment from the requirements around

documentation, court work. So the social work supervisor does try to match up

that workload, as well with the skill set of the social worker in any issues

that they may have at a given time.

MR. J. DINN:

Excellent, thank you very much.

MS. WALSH:

Where it's possible.

MR. J. DINN:

What's the plan, then, for recruiting and retaining much needed – do we have a

turnover rate and how do we go about recruiting and encouraging people to stay

with the job? Because I would assume any job involving dealing with human

beings, especially children, is going to be challenging at the best of times.

MS. WALSH:

Absolutely, it's demanding work, there's no two ways about it. So we have put a

lot of effort into recruitment and retention. Our biggest gap had been in

Labrador. We were carrying a significant vacancy factor for many years, and

because of that a lot of effort went in.

We had a recruitment and retention working group between officials of my

department, of HRS, and then we had a partnership with the Nunatsiavut

Government and the Innu government. We were all on a committee together working

on how do we address the recruitment and retention issues in Labrador? We've

been very successful. We introduced a new Innu service delivery model, which

now, actually, we're at a place where it's a rare occasion to have a vacancy in

Sheshatshiu or Natuashish.

We added two additional resources to that to augment whereby there were

vacancies on the Coast, the North Coast. When I say we're at a ratio in Labrador

of 1-20, that came after many years of being well above that.

The challenge now is the Island, specifically the North Coast and some more

remote areas on the Island outside of metro or St. John's broader area. We just

recently introduced a new model in Roddickton as well to have additional

supports to social workers there to help recruit because it's one of the areas

that is our larger vacancy factor. So, we, on a regular basis, look at where our

demands are, where our requirements are and introduce, as we can, efforts around

recruitment.

MR. J. DINN:

And there is an attempt then to recruit Indigenous social workers or people

similar to the IBED program with MUN for education?

MS. WALSH:

Yes. We have done that in the past. We've partnered with the Nunatsiavut

Government to offer programs, social work programs for Indigenous persons. We've

actually had Indigenous people working with us who went back to school and we've

augmented the cost of their schooling. Lots of times we then, unfortunately,

lose them to other – the NG will hire them from us, which is a win, win at the

end of day, frankly, because they're still working with us, just in a different

capacity, but, yes, we've looked at many approaches.

MR. J. DINN:

How is work progressing on implementing the recommendations highlighted in the

independent review of child protection services to Inuit children?

MS. WALSH:

We have a working group with the Nunatsiavut Government reviewing all of those

recommendations. The minister wrote Minister Kusugak who is the minister in the

Nunatsiavut Government for health and social services. There was an agreement

that we would work jointly on these recommendations. The advocate was quite

pleased with that approach.

We actually met two weeks ago, that was probably our last meeting. We're really

focused on tracking the data we have, to be tracking outcomes for Indigenous

children in care. That's the place we're starting, but we are also digging in on

all the other recommendations to advance a report to the House.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

Could you provide a breakdown of the number of children currently in care by

region? How many come from Indigenous communities or households?

MS. WALSH:

We know there are currently 970 children in care, which continues to be a

downward trend since 2016. We know that 290 of those are Indigenous. I can't

give you the breakdown by region currently, though we could provide it to you at

a later date.

MR. J. DINN:

That would be great. Thank you so much.

What's the status of agreements with the Innu First Nations and the Nunatsiavut

Government concerning child protection and placement?

MS. WALSH:

As it relates to the Innu Nation and both Sheshatshiu and Natuashish

communities, we have a working relationship with the Innu. That working

relationship is dated. We actually, some months ago in 2019, began a review of

that and we're working collaboratively with them to update the Working

Relationship Agreement.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you, Mr. Dinn.

Mr. Dwyer.

MR. DWYER:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Is there an organizational chart available of the department? Would I be able to

get that?

MR. WARR:

Sure.

MR. DWYER:

Okay, thank you.

What's the average time for an adoption package to be filled out and brought to

fruition, that there's an adoption being done?

MS. WALSH:

That's a very difficult question.

MR. DWYER:

Wait until the next one.

MS. WALSH:

The reason being it really depends on the type of adoption. If you're talking

about an adoption in province where a child is available and we have some

approved on the approved list, it can be fairly quick. If you're talking a child

out of province, maybe not yet available for adoption – we're working through

the interprovincial adoption desk – it can vary. I'm sorry.

MR. DWYER:

No, that's fine.

MS. WALSH:

We're not talking years; we're talking months at best.

MR. DWYER:

From my understanding, the adoption packages are filled out by the consultants

and then down to the social workers. Am I correct in saying that?

MS. WALSH:

The adoption packages: The applicants, the people who are applying to adopt, are

approved by the social workers.

MR. DWYER:

Right.

MS. WALSH:

They do all of the work on the social and medical histories, the family visits,

the home check and the police check. They do all of those pieces and then submit

it to the provincial office for approval by the provincial director.

MR. DWYER:

The social worker fills out the adoption packages?

MS. WALSH:

The package around the person who's applying, yes.

MR. DWYER:

Okay.

When it comes to the kinship programs, like the PRIDE program, is that going to

be available in the Native communities?

MS. WALSH:

We are in the process of revising the PRIDE package to be culturally aware and

working actually with our Indigenous partners on that. Yes.

MR. DWYER:

Okay, thank you.

Out of the 970 children you said were in care, how many did you say were Native

children?

MS. WALSH:

290 are Indigenous.

MR. DWYER:

Indigenous, I'm sorry. I apologize.

Out of that 970 children, how many are on the precipice of aging out of care and

moving into adulthood?

MS. WALSH:

I apologize, I don't have that number with me but I can get it for you.

MR. DWYER:

Okay, I appreciate that.

We saw, obviously, there were some issues around that in the last month or so.

I'm just wondering if we're considering a program to assist to keep these people

from becoming homeless, whether it's a leg up for, let's say, the month of the

transition so that they know they need to pay their rent. But if they transition

out and they're disenfranchised and they don't have a job or anything, then is

there a propensity to help give them a leg up to make sure they don't end up

homeless or destitute?

MS. WALSH:

We have in our policy processes around transition planning with youth and it

would start months before they age out. I know the report you're referencing.

Sometimes it's a challenge with other systems as well.

We've certainly agreed and had a fair bit of discussion that going forward we

are doing a review of our services to youth and a cross-departmental approach,

which is actually suggested as well; it's one of the recommendations in a recent

Advocate report. We do plan to look at more of a horizontal approach around

young people transitioning out of the in-care system and the supports and

services they will need in other systems being available.

MR. DWYER:

Perfect, thank you.

How many directors are currently in the department? What sort of quality

controls do these directors oversee?

MS. WALSH:

How many directors? I can't answer that question. We'd have to take that away

because one is directors at the provincial office, but then we have directors in

region as well. I'd have to get the number.

From the perspective of quality control, yes, I mean directors come into those

positions. For us, they are normally very skilled, well-educated people who have

had experience in the system that they're directing we'll call it. As a

consequence, the responsibility is for oversight of their staff and ensuring

compliance with policy.

We have provincial directors, of course – and perhaps when you're talking

directors you may only be talking the child welfare aspect, but we have a

director for policy, for Seniors and Aging and for Disability Policy Office. We

have a number of directors but on the child welfare side we actually have as

well, teams so that the directors have zone managers who report to them around

compliance. We have compliance reports which we use to ensure that oversight is

there around cases and compliance with policy and standards.

MR. DWYER:

Thank you.

When somebody applies to be a manager, is there a vetting process through a

board or are they hand-picked by one individual? Do they go through the

appointments board or anything like that?

MS. WALSH:

Well, these would be public service positions, so they would go through what was

the Human Resource Secretariat and apply. Of course, it's a merit-based process;

it's a full interview process. People are ranked. Do they meet the requirements

of the position, the qualifications, both educational and experiential, or any

other requirements that would be set out? Then an interview process is done and

they are ranked based on how well they do on the interview and recommended.

MR. DWYER:

If we have somebody employed in a supervisor's position in the department, they

can move to another position within the department and still get paid while the

transition occurs. Will a front-line worker in this department have to take

unpaid leave during their transition period and have to apply for these new

positions? Why would that be?

MS. WALSH:

Social workers in our department are all employed, of course, by us, but covered

under the NAPE contract. So they would have all rights that the NAPE contract

allows them. If they wish to take a leave of absence and apply for same, if they

qualify under the contract, we'd certainly approve so. If they wish to transfer

to another position and they apply on it and we follow all the requirements the

contract sets out around advertising positions, filling positions. That's all

compliant with the NAPE contract. They wouldn't necessarily have to take leave

if they apply for a position and they get it, either based on their seniority or

– normally based on seniority, if it's an internal competition.

MR. DWYER:

Okay. Why are front-line workers in the department who apply for a policy and

consultant position not guaranteed their old position back if they are not

successful in the application for a policy and consult job?

MR. WALSH:

So if social workers are applying on a management position, because that's what

those other positions would be, and they seek a leave of absence to go to the

management position, then they do get a position in social work back in the

office from which they came. They may not get the same case load. I think that

might be what you're referring to.

MR. DWYER:

But would they keep their seniority from …?

MS. WALSH:

Well, up to the time that – again, exactly what the contract dictates.

MR. DWYER:

Okay. In the department there are numerous examples of workloads that are

unevenly distributed, for example, consult work. These consultants are not the

ones doing the day-to-day work with the children and families in question, it is

the front-line workers who know the situation the best. Government needs to look

at how we're looking at it from a top-down approach. Is it more important to

have many directors and managers than having front-line workers?

MS. WALSH:

So we don't have any situation where we're not filling social work positions

based on the model. So there would be no situation where we would be saying,

well, we're not filling a position because we're filling a management position.

That wouldn't happen. We have a model, it's been approved, and if there are 20

cases, there's a social worker. In fact, it might not even be a full 20, because

once you get to nine or 10 you're basically really requiring another person.

That shouldn't happen.

We do need consultant position because all of the policies, which social workers

work under, all of the research that informs those policies, all of the living

arrangements, the best practice around approaches to care for children, that's

all done at the provincial office level and that supports the clinical practice

in the operational side of the department, which is where the social workers

deliver the service. They work hand in hand.

They also offer supports. If a social worker is having a particularly difficult

situation with a case and she's consulting with her supervisor, they may call a

consultant at the provincial office, and do regularly say: We have this strange

scenario or this hard situation – and I've done it myself – can you consult with

us? Can you talk with us? Would you go do a little bit of research on this case,

this matter, whatever it might be, to help inform our practice? They all play a

very critical role.

MR. DWYER:

If I could just have leave for one last question. My next set of questions are

going to be all financial.

Why are employees in zones ineligible to apply to another zone if they have more

seniority?

CHAIR:

Keep your hand up. There you go.

MS. CLEMENS-SPURRELL:

Any front-line social worker, social worker I's, can apply for any position

across the province, so they wouldn't be restricted to zones. As Susan had

referenced earlier, social worker I positions, it's obviously a NAPE position,

followed by the contract and seniority oftentimes rules. So if you're the most

senior applicant anywhere in the province on a particular position, permanent or

temporary position, you have the ability to apply and be awarded if you fit

within the guidelines of the contract.

MR. DWYER:

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Okay, Mr. Dinn.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

Would you be able to describe some initiatives that the minister is currently

undertaking to assist communities in planning for population aging in accordance

with the Age-Friendly communities program? I know the minister mentioned that in

his opening statement about seniors aging at home and in their communities.

Something I certainly support, probably because I'm on the long, slow slide into

oblivion anyway. I'd certainly be interested in the initiatives and the

Age-Friendly communities program.

MS. WALSH:

Yes, we've started an interdepartmental committee with the Department of Health

and Community Services – we co-chair and a number of other departments are

represented on that committee – to look at the whole business of the aging

population in the province and how to meet the needs of changing demographics

for our province. That group, who works very closely, as well, with Suzanne

Brake, the Seniors' Advocate, is well under way and we're looking forward to

some of the creative things they will come up with.

As well, as a department, the minister certainly mentioned in his introductory

comments, we also have a number of grants that we use to promote healthy aging

in the province. Our grants, which are all application based, includes things

like our Age-Friendly community grant, which communities can use this money to

do assessments of their communities to determine what could they be doing in

their community to make it more age friendly. Then they can reapply a second

time, once they got their assessment done, to try to implement some of those

initiatives. That's one grant.

The other is the Community Transportation grants. That is something, actually,

that the minister recently did the announcement that that grant program just

opened. It's looking at community groups to look at trying to develop

transportation in their regions that, not only addresses older persons but as

well people with disabilities. There was an agreement between both groups that

some of the issues cross both populations and so it made good sense. That's a

$300,000-a-year grant program.

The Seniors' Social Inclusion Initiative, of course, is one that was new last

year and that sees the 50+ clubs be able to apply for either $1,000 or $2,000,

depending if they're incorporated or not, to develop programing that really

looks at preventing isolation in seniors and promoting inclusion. There is also

$100,000 a year that's provided to the Newfoundland Centre for Applied Health

Research, which is out of Grenfell College. That group does some really good

research that we've been able to use, and the Advocate has been able to use,

around seniors and seniors' issues.

They're probably the primary ones. I don't know, Aisling, if you want to add

anything.

MS. GOGAN:

Just to say that those programs are really well received by the community and

we're so lucky to have such strong community partners. For the Seniors' Social

Inclusion Initiative, which was new last year, we had 140 applicants. There were

only four that were ineligible because of our close relationship with the

50-plus club, and all kinds of wonderful things that those groups have managed

to do with relatively small amounts of money.

If you wanted, specifically, a list of projects that have been approved or

anything like that–

MR. J. DINN:

That would be good.

MS. GOGAN:

– we can certainly provide that, either for that or any of the programs that

Susan also mentioned.

MR. J. DINN:

Perfect. That would be fantastic.

The project that was to make the Deer Lake beach more accessible, that would

cross multiple lines, right?

MS. GOGAN:

That was from one of our Disability Policy Office grants. They've got

capacity-building grants and inclusion grants. That was an inclusion grant they

received a couple of years ago to do that work.

MR. J. DINN:

Excellent, good idea.

In the minister's mandate letter, he was asked to address issues important to

seniors as identified by the Office of the Seniors' Advocate. Has any

consultation with the Seniors' Advocate taken place yet? Which of the issues

identified are first and foremost on the list to be addressed by this ministry?

How are they to be alleviated?

MR. WARR:

Unfortunately, that hasn't happened as of yet. MHA Dinn, it's our plan to get

together with Suzanne Brake. I've had the opportunity to sit and have just a

social chat with her. We actually were supposed to meet, I think, this week and

it got put off – it was today, wasn't it? It was today. Our Estimates were

actually supposed to be this morning and it got switched to tonight so we ended

up cancelling the meeting; we certainly could have made it. I look forward to

having the opportunity to sit with her and obviously discuss aging and seniors.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you very much.

On what projects did you work with the federal government in their Poverty

Reduction Strategy?

MS. GOGAN:

We work very closely with the federal government. We're actually the

provincial-territorial co-chair of the federal-provincial-territorial Poverty

Advisory Committee to Ministers Responsible for Social Services. It's a bit of a

mouthful.

In that role, provinces and territories generally work very closely with the

federal government. Specifically, in Newfoundland and Labrador, we're really

looked to for our expertise and our leadership around ensuring that federal

initiatives would be well aligned with provincial and territorial initiatives.

There was a piece of work that was done that looked at marginal effective tax

rates to make sure that when benefits were implemented, that they would actually

make people better off so that people would always be better off by earning more

and working more, which is a best practice in poverty reduction.

We also worked closely just on priorities in the development of the federal

strategy, so you'll see increased child benefits. Some of the changes that were

made for seniors as well, around OAS and GIS, were things that the province

advocated for.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you very much.

MS. GOGAN:

I'm not sure if there are any specific areas –

MR. J. DINN:

No, that's good. Thank you very much. That's excellent.

Is the ministry working to allay the concerns expressed by aging LGBTQ

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians regarding discrimination and safety in

residential care? Is there a targeted plan on ensuring that they have access to

safe and dignified care in old age?

MS. GOGAN:

We've been working with the Department of Health and Community Services on that

issue. There is a group – we haven't heard from them, I don't think, recently,

but I think they're called the Grey Gays – who staff have met with and certainly

shared those concerns with the Department of Health and Community Services.

As Susan mentioned, we work really closely with those. That issue is certainly

on the radar of the group that Susan mentioned as well and one that we're

hearing more and more about. We've also heard some really positive stories at

some long-term care facilities in the province, things that they've done to

ensure that they have a welcoming and supportive environment to the LGBTQ

community.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

legislation? I feel like I'm in class right now. Hands up going everywhere.

MS. WALSH:

Work is progressing very well we're pleased to say. Minister Warr has just

recently met with the provincial advisory committee for persons with

disabilities. We have a new chair for that committee and we had some new

members.

We did have a little bit of a slowdown during COVID and Snowmageddon. Primarily,

their priorities were really focused on other areas due to COVID,

understandably. We certainly supported the disability community through many of

their concerns during the height of COVID. Things are back on track and we're

full speed ahead.

The legislation, we're working with the Legislative Counsel currently on

drafting.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

How many people has the Accessible Vehicle Funding helped this past year?

MS. GOGAN:

It helped 17 people in the past year. It's a very successful program but, as

you're probably aware, there's generally a wait-list for the program as well.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you, Mr. Dinn.

Mr. Dwyer.

MR. DWYER:

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Just a follow-up on my colleague's question there. We're saying that we get 17

vehicles retrofitted for $400,000?

MS. GOGAN:

The budget for that program is $350,000. I think the other $50,000 is the

Accessible Taxi Program.

MR. DWYER:

Okay.

MS. GOGAN:

The maximum amount for that program that someone can apply for is $25,000.

MR. DWYER:

Okay, thank you.

The $150,000 you said, Minister, that was allocated for Innu children in care,

what's that $150,000 earmarked for? Is there a necessity currently or is it

something to add on the programing that's already available?

MS. WALSH:

I apologize, $150,000?

MR. DWYER:

You said there was $150,000 allocated to Innu children in care.

MS. WALSH:

My apologies. Yes, that money is for 18 months, a year and a half, for a

position to lead the response to the Inuit review that the Office of the Child

and Youth Advocate released. While we've been working collaboratively with the

Nunatsiavut Government, we really needed a project leader to help both of us

move things forward and that's what that position is for.

MR. DWYER:

It's for a salary?

MS. WALSH:

Correct.

MR. DWYER:

Okay, perfect. Thank you.

With the 50-plus clubs and the inclusion grant, you said there were 140

applications and only four were denied. Was all the money used that was

allocated for the 50-plus clubs?

MS. GOGAN:

$246,000, if I remember correctly, was allocated of the $270,000 budgeted. It

was a new program and I think COVID at the end – you're dealing with very small

clubs who are all volunteers. Our staff worked really closely with the seniors

in those organizations. I think if things had been different with COVID it

probably would have been –

MS. WALSH:

(Inaudible.)

MS. GOGAN:

Of course.

MS. WALSH:

We didn't have a specific budget for that initiative, but all applications that

met the criteria – and as Aisling had said, almost all of them were funded.

MR. DWYER:

Okay, perfect. Thank you.

I think that's it for the social questions. We can go right into the financial

if you would like.

CHAIR:

You're done with the first section.

Mr. Dinn, any further questions?

MR. J. DINN:

I don't think he was done with the first section. Were you going line by line in

1.2.01?

MR. DWYER:

I was going to go to 1.1.01 under Executive and Support Services.

MR. J. DINN:

I think, Chair, he was (inaudible) finished with the general questions, so he's

still on the same –

CHAIR:

You're free to use your time as long as you're staying within the headings that

are called.

MR. DWYER:

So we're still in Executive and Support Services?

CHAIR:

I've given you guys some leeway because some of the items related to youth

services or seniors are in subsequent sections, but that's fine.

Please, we are still within 1.1.01 through to 1.2.03.

MR. DWYER:

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for that clarity.

Just on 1.1.01, Minister's Office, item number one is Salaries. Last year there

was $9,160 less spent than was budgeted, yet this year you estimated to spend

$16,960 more than what was actually spent last year. What's the reason for the

increase?

CHAIR:

Minister.

MR. WARR:

The savings of $9,160 was a result of the minister not availing of the

automobile allowance during 2019-2020. The increase this year would be from the

budget as a result of the additional pay period for '20-'21.

MR. DWYER:

Okay, thank you.

Under Purchased Services, last year there was $1,754 more spent than what was

budgeted for. Why was that?

MR. WARR:

Under Purchased Services, the $1,754 was an overrun from the 2019-2020 budget

due to costs associated with an insurance deductible on damage incurred to a

rental vehicle.

MR. DWYER:

Thank you.

In '20-'21, you estimated $200 less than what was budgeted for in '19-'20, while

going over budget by $1,754. What factors went into this estimate?

MR. WARR:

That $200 was a decrease from the 2019-2020 budget reduction in expenditures

planned, and funds were reallocated to rightsize the budget.

MR. DWYER:

Okay, thank you.

In Transportation and Communications the actual that was spent was $55,583 and

it was budgeted last year for $78,900. When we only spent $55,000, why would we

go back to $77,300 this year?

MR. WARR:

The difference of $23,317 were savings from the 2019-2020 budget due to reduced

travel requirements. Some travel planned in the last quarter was postponed or

cancelled due to COVID-19. The minister's travel to the district when the House

is in session would be charged to the House of Assembly.

MR. DWYER:

Okay, thank you.

The $290,000 from the $253,000, what was the new money earmarked for?

MR. WARR:

Are you –

MR. DWYER:

When you come down to the Amount to be Voted, or the Total: Minister's Office,

it's the same thing. Is that because of the increase in the vehicle usage?

MS. JONES:

So you're looking at the change from last year's budget to this year's budget?

MR. DWYER:

Yes.

MS. JONES:

The biggest change there would be the 27th pay period.

MR. DWYER:

Oh, okay. Right on. That makes sense.

That's it for the Minister's Office. Will I move on to the Executive?

CHAIR:

Yeah, as long as you stay within 1.2.03.

MR. DWYER:

Oh, okay.

1.2.01, under Executive Support, Salaries, last year there was $70,088 less

spent than what was budgeted for. Why was this?

MR. WARR:

Savings from the 2019-2020 budget as a result of short-term vacancies and staff

changes with new incumbents at lower steps and budgeted positions.

MR. DWYER:

Thank you.

In '20-'21, you estimated to spent $108,488 more than what was actually spent in

'19-'20. Why is this, and is it the result of a new hire? If so, why is there a

new hire required?

MS. JONES:

Last year we had a one-time savings of $70,000, and that was just short-term

vacancies. Those positions have since been filled. As well as for '20-'21

there's a 27th pay period, so that's an extra of $38,000 there. So that would be

the difference.

MR. DWYER:

Okay, thank you.

Under Transportation and Communications, last year there was $7,563 less spent

than what was budgeted, yet this year you increased the budget by $200. Why is

that?

MR. WARR:

The savings from the 2019-2020 budget were primarily due to reduced travel

requirements. Trips planned in the last quarter, again, were postponed or

cancelled due to COVID-19. The $200 increase from the 2019-2020 budget is to

cover a slight increase in anticipated travel. Again, funds will be reallocated

to rightsize the budget.

MR. DWYER:

Okay, thank you.

Then under Supplies, last year there was $3,228 more spent than what was

budgeted. What's the reason for that and what was factored into this year's

estimate?

MR. WARR:

The $3,228 is overage from the 2019-2020 budget due to increased requirements

for supplies and the purchase of new cellphones as the old ones were no longer

being supported and presented a security risk. Actually, I think there were four

cellphones involved. The $400 increase from the 2019-2020 budget was to cover

anticipated supplies requirement. Again, funds will be reallocated to rightsize

the budget.

MR. DWYER:

Okay.

I'll go into the next header on the next one.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Dinn.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

The ministry pledged to encourage and facilitate an increase in the number of

accessible taxis, especially in the area where this service was not previously

available. I think you mentioned that $50,000 of that $300,000 was for that.

Would it be possible to provide us with an update on the numbers for this

program? How many in total were served through the 2019-2020 budget and does

this number represent an increase over the year before or a decrease?

MS. GOGAN:

Two new accessible taxis are approved every year. In 2019-20, one was approved

in Lewisporte and one was approved in Gander. We were very pleased to get

accessible taxis in communities that didn't have any accessible form of public

transportation. We don't have numbers yet in terms of how many people have been

served in 2019-20. We could get you numbers from the previous years, however.

We hear every day such positive stories from the community of people with

disabilities who can just do normal things now when they want to do them and who

couldn't do them before. It's been a very successful program.

MR. J. DINN:

I agree. A good idea. Thank you.

On to 1.2.02, we see here that actual spending for Salaries was nearly $300,000

under budget for 2019-2020, yet we see a nearly $200,000 increase in the

budgeted amount over the previous year. Would the minister be able to explain

these variances, these fluctuations?

MR. WARR:

Yes. The $282,000 was savings from the 2019-2020 budget resulting from

short-term vacant positions. The increase from the 2019-2020 budget is a result

of the additional pay period for 2020-2021.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

I think I'm just going to say ditto to that one every time I see it then.

Under Transportation and Communications, we see that actual spending in

2019-2020 was under what was allotted; however, there is a steep rise in this

year's budget for this item by nearly $100,000. Would you be able to provide an

overview of the expenses previously incurred and how they differ going into this

coming year?

MR. WARR:

Again, under 1.2.02?

MR. J. DINN:

Yes.

MR. WARR:

The $50,000 savings from the 2019 budget is the result of travel requirements

less than anticipated in several divisions as meetings and training sessions in

the final quarter, which would have been January to March, were postponed or not

attended due to weather conditions and COVID-19, as well utilization of other

cost-efficient, effective electronic mediums, for example, Skype and

teleconference, for the remaining part of that year. The increase was a result

from the decision to centralize funding for training travel. Funds reallocated

from the Child and Youth Services to rightsize the budget.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

So it's not so much as an increase as centralizing it. Okay.

Still with 1.2.02, none of the budgeted $13,000 for Professional Services was

spent in 2019-20, but the budget remains the same for this year. Why?

MR. WARR:

The $13,000 savings from the 2019-2020 budget were mainly due to a one-time

savings from an amount budgeted for a potential consultant to develop strategies

to address Level-4 costs of residential services not required this year as the

CSSD partnered on a larger RFP with Health and Community Services, who covered

the costs.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

And the variance, then, under Purchased Services?

MR. WARR:

The $20,000 decrease was savings as a result of a reduction in copying costs and

requirements for individual medical evaluations less than anticipated.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you very much.

Under 1.2.03, we noticed here a cut of over $175,000 in Salaries compared with

the budgeted amount from last year. What accounts for this decrease? If staff

are being removed or are not being replaced, how does this affect the

development and delivery of policy for vulnerable children?

MR. WARR:

The $177,600 decrease from the 2019-2020 budget was a result of funding of

$233,000 sunset in fiscal 2019-2020 for the adoption planning project, partially

offset by additional pay period in '20-'21.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you.

Still with that section, could we have an explanation as to why the cost of

Supplies is over double that projected in 2019-2020?

MR. WARR:

Under Supplies, the increase from the 2019-2020 budget is a result of training

materials required to support crisis prevention intervention and Triple P

parenting program: funds, again, reallocated to rightsize the budget.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay, thank you.

Still with that section, why did spending for Professional Services come in at

$46,000 under budget and why has this item been cut by over $100,000 for

'20-'21? What services were provided?

MR. WARR:

The $46,360 was savings as a result of $25,000 planned for work on Poverty

Reduction Strategy requiring outside expertise was not required. A balance due

to lower cost for post-implementation support for new structured decision-making

model. The $104,800 was a decrease from the 2019-2020 budget to reflect removal

of sunset funding for the post-implementation support of the structured

decision-making model.

MR. J. DINN:

Just one or two questions, Chair, left for me in this section, general

questions.

I do want to go back to a comment that was made about integrating or the

committees that cut across with other departments such as Health. Where does

Education fit into that? I ask that from the point of view is that often schools

are the first line; the children that are served in school are also going to be

served by your department, by sometimes Health, by also Justice and so on and so

forth. That's been a concern of many teachers in schools, that what I like to

call wraparound services are not always – it's great in theory, more difficult

in practice. I'm just wondering where Education fits into all of that.

MS. WALSH:

The Department of Education and the school boards is a critical partner in that

for sure. We have a lot of overlaps. While we might have listed certain

departments like Health because they are often a primary partner, Education is

on a number of these committees as well and we're on a number of theirs. The

Education Action Plan, we're represented on a number of the committees t