VOL. 4 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. TUESDAY, MAY 1, 1979 NO. 22

May 1, 1979 The House met at 3:00 P M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 921 PK - 1 PRESENTING PETifiONS MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker~I beg leave to present a petition signed by 1,300 constituents of St. Mary's-The Cap~s, the prayer of which is that the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation be asked to extend their facilities to that part of my district. These 1,300 constituents, Mr. Speaker, are quite disturbed, upset,because of the fact that they are unable to get any television reception in that area from our national television outlet. Mr.

Speaker, it is rather ironic that in this day 0f improved technology and satellites and instantaneous communication from almost all parts of the world,that people living about fifty miles from the capital city of St. John's are unable to get reception on the network that is being provided by their tax dollars. This year, Mr. Speaker, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation will be spending about $550 million on providing service to the rest of Canada. My constituents feel that they are entitled to part of that tax dollar, their tax dollar,spent by their national broadcasting and television station.

It is rather ironic,too, Mr. Speaker, that this year,or at least last year~the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation spent something like $45,oon to provide French outlets on the West Coast of our Province 1 one that is going to cost the Province $12,000 a year in maintenance,and yet these people living in my constituency,again,fifty miles from the capital city~are unable to get reception. Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that my constituents would not want me to convey the impression that they are against the establishment of a French outlet on the West Coast to serve even though a very small minority of our people, but I do not think they are being at ~11 unreasonable in asking that at least a part of that money, part of their 2377

May 1, 1979 Tape 921 IB-2 MR. W. CARTER: tax dollars be spent toward the provisi on of television service in their area, that is, St. Mary's - The Capes. I realize, r . ~IR . DOODY: What communities? MR. W. CARTER: From St. Joseph's. Admiral's Beach. Mount Carmel, Col,inet, North Harbour. pretty well tnat whole part of the district - MR. DOODY: The Doody Is cannot get esc. MR. W. CARTER: The Doody's in Admiral's Beach and others. I am asking, Mr. Speaker. that this petition be referred to the appropriate Provincial Department and that that department then forward it on to the appropriate officials in Ottawa with a request that irmnediate attention be given it. 2378

Hay 1, 1979 MR, SPEAKER: (Ottenheimer) MR. W.N. ROWE: Tape 922 SD - 1 Hon. Leader of the Opposition, Hr. Speaker, I rise to support whole- heartedly the petition pt'esented by my hon. friend,the member for St. Mary's- The Capes, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. W. Carter). I am surprised that the Government House Leader did not leap to his feet in his usual narrow fashion and say that it is a matter for federal jurisdiction and therefore should not be presented in this hon. House. We have seen that kind of narrowness before, Mr. Speaker. Sir, I am delighted to see a petition of this nature being presented here.

It may be technically and financially under the jurisdiction of the Federal Government~or a Crown corporation wholly owned by the Federal Government, but the whole matter of communications, the matter of television reception by communities in this Province is a matter which is of vital interest to us here in this House, every member of the House,and certainly should be ti-H! vital interest as well of the Department of Communications provincially. I join with the hon. the minister in some of the sentiments which he expressed.

Hundreds of millions of dollars a year are spent by the CBC, most of it for !audible, admirable purposes,trying to provide French and English speaking programming for various parts of the country and, I believe, in some areas of the country we are seeing programming being done in other languages, other minority languages. as well. Mr. Speaker, it is an utter disgrace when you have an area in a Province like Newfoundland, fifty or si."i:ty miles from ihe capital city, who do not yet get reception from the national network, publically owned network.

This is not to take away from the need of people living in fringe areas of our country, the Northwest Territories and the Yukon and so on, but, Sir, I would submit that there is hardly a community in the remoter areas of our country, our nation, which does not get full and direct CBC programming, So 2379

~lay 1, 1979 Tape 922 SD - 2 :1R. 10. N • ROWE: it is a disgrace and a sb~e that t hese communities in St. ~lacy's - The capes district should not be able to avail themselves of the CISC prog r acming as well. We have hundreds of millions of dollars spent on satellites, presucably for the purpose of being able to beam programmes to all parts of Canada,and here we have, as the bon. minister mentioned, communities just a hop away from ehe capital city of St. John's who can not ge t CBC programming yet.

Perhaps if the CBC, at the national level , stopped spending money in trying to create some pale i .mitations of situation comedies in the United States and more on trying to develop indigenous Canadian , Newfocndland, Quebec, Ontario culture by their televis ion . 2380

May 1, 1979 Tape 923 EC - 1 MR. W. N. ROWE; programming, and this might bring the whole question of places like St. Mary's- The Capes and other areas in this Province which do not get the programming closer to home, closer to the hearts of those who have the responsibility for spending money. I noticed the hon. member mentioned the French outlet in the Province and he qualified his original statement. I am not one, Sir, who thinks that it is a waste of money at all spending money on bringing programming to the French-speaking population in our Province or elsewhere in the nation.

I think that in a bilingual country, two officially bilingual languages, French and English, that, Sir, there should be that kind of expenditure and there should be an exchange of culture between the two linguistic groups. He hastened to add that he, himself,was not decrying that expenditure but that certainly a fairly large area, 1,300 people, constituents - add adults in this case plus the children - you can multiply that by three or four for the children involved and you have upwards of 5,000 or 6,000 people who are being deprived.

Well, Sir, without detracting from the expenditure of money on French or English networks anywhere in the country, you can only decry and in fact despise the fact that some 5,000 or 6,000 people in that one area of our Province are deprived of C.B.C. programming, deprived, Sir, of some very good programming by the C.B.C., and are deprived of a glimpse of what is going on elsewhere in our country in terms of news, public programmes, public news programmes and other programmes describing what is going on in the Province and in the nation as a whole.

I support the petition wholeheartedly, Sir, and I do hope that the 238~

May 1, 1979 Tape 923 EC - 2 MR. W. N. ROWE: Department of Communications gets in touch immediately with the relevant department in Ottawa,and the C.B.C. both locally and nationally 1 and presses home in the most emphatic manner possible the need for these people to be hooked up immediately to reception from the C.B.C. network. The petition is a good one, Sir, and we support it wholeheartedly on this side of the House. AN HON. MEMBER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr.

Ottenheimer) Before recognizing the hon. gentleman, I would like to welcome to the House of Asse~bly this afternoon, s~me visitors from the community of Berry Head, Port au Port Peninsula; they are the chairman of the community council, Mr. William McCann, and two councillors, Mr. Dennis Burke and Mr. Richard Gallant. I know han. members join me in welcoming these gentlemen to the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: gentleman to my left. MR. WOODROW: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! I was about to recognize the bon. It is another petition, Mr.Speaker.

I think the hen. gentleman to my right wishes to speak on this petition. The hen. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to support the petition presented by my friend, the member for St. Mary's-The Capes (Mr. W. Carter), Sir, and I do so, Mr. Speaker, 'with a great deal of amazement. I am really Z382

May 1,1979 Tape No. 924 AH-1 MR. NEARY: surprised to hear that communities so near St. John's, so near the headquarters of CBC,cannot get CBC in a place like Colinet. I believe I was there one time and I think I remember watching CBC. Now I could be wrong, Sir, But usually it is the reverse throughout the Province; · it is the private station that you cannot get and the CBC yo~ can get pretty well all over Newfoundland and pretty well throughout Labrador.

In my own district, I can say that only half the district get two channels, get the CBC and the private network,and the ocher half are forced to watch the CBC whether they like it or not. And I notice now,with all due respect to what my hon. colleague,the Leader of the Opposition,said that the CRTC are thinking about forcing the CBC to up their Canadian content from seventy-five per cent I think up to ninety per cent. MR. DOODY: I was just thinking about the possibility of seeing Peter Gzowski back. MR. NEARY: No,I got him off the air, thank God. We banished him.

They do not have to put up with him any longer down in Labrador West. MR. W.ROWE: My point was that the Canadian content is just a pale imitation of what goes on (inaudible). MR. NEARY: Well,I am sorry, I misunderstood the hon. gentleman,because CBC is bad enough now, their programming is bad enough now without forcing us to watch any more of that so-called Canadian content. I do not have cable television for two reasons.

First,I cannot afford it and in the second place it would distract my children from doing their homework, but if the CBC upped their Canadian content I am afraid I would be forced to get cable television and I do not want to do that, Sir. So, Mr. Speaker, I am very, very surprised to hear that these communities that the hen. gentleman mentioned, not too far from St. John's - How far away? About sixty or seventy miles :!way? Sixty or seventy miles as the crow flies and the Deputy Minister of Transportation or Public Works knows how the crow flies to Colinet - these people down there, Sir, do not get 2383

May 1,1979 Tape No. 924 A.FI-2 MR • . NEARY: the C.BC. My two bon. frlends mentioned the fact that t .he CBC were spending their money on French netwo~ks. Well some dumb-bell two year ago wanted to get a French network int3 St. John's, wanted the CBC to have an English and French televis;lon statio .n in St. John's. AN RON. MEMli'ER: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: No,the dumb-bell happened to be here in t;h;ls Province,and fortunately. level heads p.re'ltailed, I suppose,and they did not go ahead with it. But they were thinking about it and they were looking at :l.t very favourably. MR.

DQODY: It was only a budgetary c,o,.ns;i.deration that ... s_tgpped t.i)em. MR. NEARY: That is right. And that is what brought that fellow that reads the news now - What is his name1- 2384

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 925 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Knowlton Nash, brought Knowlton Nash from management back to reading the news - MR. W. ROWE: At $90,000 a year. MR. NEARY: - so that he could have a dart at Trudeau for cutting the CBC budget,and he does it every night. MR. W. ROWE: At $90,000. MR. NEARY: Anybody who watches CBC National ~ every night will see the dice being loaded in favour of Clarke and aga ... nst Trudeau and that is why Knowlton Nash stepped down from management back to reading the news. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: I do not think. MR. W. ROWE: MR. NEARY: back MR. W. ROWE: MR. NEARY: MR. W.

ROWE: MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: this petition. Oh, oh! That was not Knowlton Nash, $90,000 a year. $90,000 a year he gave up to go No, he got. He got. - reading the news. He did not take a cut. That is right. You are certainly supporting MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition, Sir, and I would like to have more time. I would like to be able to debate this subject because I personally believe, Sir, that the time is rapidly approaching when the CBC should be dismantled and turned over to private enterprise. It is not serving the purpose for which it was intended.

It is competing with the private stations. It is retarding growth and expansion of private stations and that is why I cannot get the private network to come into 2385

... \ May 1, 1979 Tape No. 925 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: fifty rer cent of my district because they cannot afford to expand. They have to compete with the low cost advertising. AN HON. MEMBER: He is running for the leadership now. MR. NEARY: AN HON. MEMBER·: MR. W. ROWE: From the Himalayas. MR. NEARY: first . SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SIMMONS: my candidate like that. MR. NEARY: Who is running for the leadership? - private television stations. From Koolu, India. We have to get him right side up Hear, hear!

Now boy, do not go talking about I think that the CBC should be dismantled and it should be turned over to a private enterprise. We have three governments in Canada, Mr. Speaker, we have the federal government in Ottawa, we have the RCMP and we have the CBC. They are all a law onto themselves. And it is time now to do something about it, for Canadian taxpayers to rebel and do something about it. You would not mind if they were providing the service they were supposed to provide but here we hear today of a number of settlements, only forty or fifty or sixty miles from St.

John's as the crow flies, who cannot pick up the CBC even though their taxes are paying for it. And I think that is shameful, Sir. MR. SPEAKER {Ottenheirner): The hon. member for the Bay of Islands. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition from the community of Irishtown and it concerns the phasing out of st. Brendan's School, a school which had been there for some forty to fifty years. It was replaced by a new one some ten or eleven years ago. But the prayer of the 2386

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 925 NM - 3 MR. WOODROW: petition is as follows. "We, the concerned parents of Irishtown,have been notified at a meeting which was held at the 2387

-, •J May 1, 1979 Tape No. 926 DW - 1 HR. L • WOODROW: Parish Hall on March 2R, 197q ~f ~ po~stbility of rhe primary school at Irishtown~educating grades kindergarten, one and two, to be closing dmm. If this happens our children will be transferred to another school outside the community and transportation provided by the school bus. This we do not want to happen. If you agree with this statement in any way,please sign below as this letter would be going before the board at a meeting to be held in the very near future.'' This is signed, Mr. Speaker, by 153 parents.

In some cases, I suppose, the husband and wife signed it. In this school in Irishtown you have thirty-five pupils- kindergarten, grades one and two,as I already stated-and two teachers. Now since this controversy started over on the West Coast of the Province it received a lot of publicity on open lines etc.,and the school board sent out a form to all parents with children attending school to sign whether they wanted their children to go to Humbermouth,which is the nearest school to Irishtown.

They did not agree,so what the board asked was if the seven pupils in grade two would attend the school in Humbermouth going by bus~and I have the names of the parents here, the seven parents of all the children who say they would rather keep their children over in the community of Irishtown. So I wrote the Chairman of the school board and I would like to quote a paragraph or two of the letter which I wrote to him,and incidentally I sent copies to the hon. the Premier; hon. T. Alex Hickman, Minister of Education,and Mr. Lew Upshall, President of Newfoundland Teachers Association.

I will quote, Sir, the couple of paragraphs, "As the member for the Bay of Islands district,! have been and will continue to be dedicated to a continually improving educational system whereby students are provided with the highest possible standard of learning.! am therefore particularly anxious to have this very pressing issue resolved in the best interest of the children concerned. 2388

May 1, 1979 Tape 927 Mr. Woodrow: With this aim in mind and after fully examining the genuine fears and concern expressed by the entire community of Irishtown,I look forward to a responsible and a rational decision PK - 1 being taken by the Board, a decision which will be in the best interest of those affected by the proposed phaseout of St. Brendan's." Now I have not heard, Mr. Speaker, from the Chairman of the Board yet but I feel sure the Chairman of the Board and the School Board will give them every consideration. Now this,as you know, Mr.

Speaker, is a very significant day in the life of children as we witnessed this morning down in the lobby of Confederation Building. So I would like, Mr.

Speaker, to have the children of Irishtown it does not matter if there are seven children or fifty-seven children;they are still children of this Province and they deserve every consideration. hope that every consideration will be given this by the school board,and by government, if necessary, providing funds to keep that school in Irishtown open, and give the children over there the best possible education that they are entitled to and children of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. And I now would like to place the petition in the hands of the Minister of Education (Mr. Hickman). Mr.

Speaker, thank you very much. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): The han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I want to support the petition so ably presented by my friend from the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) on behalf of the 153 persons who signed the petition, and in particular on behalf of the students or the children involved. The member implied that there were primary students involved. Could he indicate up to what grade? MR. IIIQODROW: Kindergarten up to Grade II. MR. SIMMONS: Just Kindergarten to Grade II, Kindergarten, I and II. I want to support the petition.

I am somewhat surprised that this kind of thing is being proposed. He did not address himself to the alternate possibilities. Meadows is much nearer to Irishtown than is Humbermouth, and I am wondering if the parents were given certain other options, but 23b:9

May 1, 1979 Tape 927 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: busing five, six, seven year old children all the way from Irishtown to Humbermouth

May 1,1979 Tape No. 928 AH-1 MR. SIMMONS: is asking a bit much. It does, Mr. Speaker, point to the need for the government to have a look, a close look at its present school bus policies. The school bus policy objective,as I understand it,was to provide for better quality education and an aspect of better quality education has to be the social situation of the child, particularly the young child,and how it is interrupted by being bused out of the community for long distances each day and being therefore away from his real social milieu several hours of every day,five days a week.

The member mentioned he had no answer frum the chairman of the board. He sent a copy to a person he purports to be president. Perhaps he has got no answer there either because the president is not at all the name of the person that he mentioned. It is quite another name altogether. The current president is Mr. LaFosse and the incoming president is Mr. Shorthall. AN RON . MEMBFR: The branch president. MR. SIMMONS: He means the local branch president. That is a different matter.

But I want to ask him, while he made the point of saying he did not get an answer from the board, whether he has got any answer from the Premier or from the Minister of Education(Mr. Hickman) on this very important point1 He ignored addressing himself to that situation and if I were he I would concentrate much more on the Minister of Education and the Premier on this particular one because the issue revolves very much arunnd the busing policy of the Province and therefore of the government. I would hope that the Premier or the ~inister of Education (Mr.

Hickmanh 1f he is within earshot would see fit to address himself to this particular petition. And I would hope they would be less political in a partisan way about it than the Premier managed to be this morning in a rather disgracefully political way downstairs in the lobby. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) Order, please! I think the hon. gentleman has strayed from his supporting the petition into other matters. ~3S1.

May 1,1979 MR. Sll!MONS: Tape No. 928 AH-2 Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That 1 am, Sir.1t is just that on this particular day when we draw at ~ention to the Year of the Chil d 1 would hope that some people would see fit to address themselves to the youngsters • interests ins tead of their awn,albeit they may be youngsters in another category,but it was a despicable exercise. 1 will come back to that later today, Mr. Speaker, under another heading.

I do want to support the petition and I would urge the member concerned to stop wasting his time writing letters to people who have no control over the situat ion , who are doing what is dictated to them under the existing policies,and use his substantial influence in 2392

May 1, 1979 Tape 929 EC - 1 MR. SIMMONS: talking to his colleagues, the Premier and the Minister of Education (Mr. Hickman) to get some sensible, rational bus policies that will allow - not only bus policies 1 I ought to say also policies for keeping open small schools in rural areas which are in many cases the only centre of activity outside the home.

They have moved out the post office, they have moved out the church in some places, and the only centre left is the small school, and now they are going to move that one out of Irishtown with the full blessing of the government, aided and abetted by government policies on school construction,or lack thereof,and government policies on bus transportation. 'If I were advising the member, I would advise him to talk to the people who are really responsible for this disastrous situation in Irishtown. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) The hon. the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F.

ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of sixty-four residents of the community of Rant's Harbour in the electoral district of Trinity - Bay de Verde, and the prayer of the petition reads as follows: "We, the concerned fishermen and citizens of Rant's Harbour, are seeking,by way of a petition, a change in plans to a proposed breakwater in the process of being constructed here at Rant's Harbour. The present structure and the structure being constructed are one and the same and have not passed the test of time, and due to other conditions the structure is not suited.

What we propose is a system of large rocks to form a natural breakwater in the shape of an 'L' and embridging two natural formations."

. .:._. ~l ay 1 , 197 9 Tape 929 EC - 2 MR. F. ROWE: "We, the u.ndersigned, believe this to be the best suited for.m to be placed in Rant 1 s Harbour." Now, Sir, this i~ somewhat of an unusual petition ln the sense that it is asking for a · change of something that is already under c.ons·truction and it does com~ under the Small Craft Harbours Division and the federal Department of Public Works.

As most hor.. members know, Han .t 1 s Harbour is a unique community in the sense t·hat it has a fish plant that is producing a fi:ished product, cod au gratin and this sort of thing - very good fishermen contributing enormously to the economy of thfs Province through tax dollars and employing a great number of people. Sir, the problem here seems to be that the people who signed the petition claim that there was very little consultation with them or the council before the contract was awarded.

The problem seems to stem from the fact that there was consultation, however, there was a change in the make-up of the local improvement district from the time of consultation to the time of the awarding of the contract. therein lies the problem. Now, Sir, the reason I present 2394

May 1' 1979 Tape No. 930 DW - 1 MR. F. ROWE: this petition before this House of Assembly although it is a federal matter, is that the Minister o£ Fisheries (Mr. W. Car~er) has 5tated tim~ aud t.i..me agalu that he would be most willing to assist communities, members of his department would be willing to assist most communities, fishing communities in this Province where in fact federal money may be spent.

They will be willing to assist in a techincal manner and it is on this principle and for this reason that I present this petition in this House today because I think_. there is a great need for co-operation between the provincial personnel in the Department of Fisheries and the federal personnel in the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, or the Small Craft and Harbours Division to be more specific, so that the fishermen and the people in such communities.are heard from and there advice is sought before a contract is actually awarded and construction takes place.

The effect of this proposed construction now will be this, that it will not last very long, number one; and, number two, it will cause a current in the harbour which would end up filling in the slipway with loose rocks and gravel, and will also have the effect of washing away the Custer's Head Road on one side of the harbour of Hant's Harbour.

Sir, I think great importance should be attached to closer co-operation between provincial government and the Small Craft Harbours nivision when it comes to what type of a structure should in fact be built in the various small fishing communities in the Province, particularly in this case Rant's Harbour where, as I mentioned before, they have a unique crab plant out there producing a very fine product, employing many hundreds of people at sea, the fishermen themselves, and people working in the fish plant and contributing significantly to the economy of the Province through corporate taxation and personal t~xation.So, Sir, I give this petition my wholehearted support and I ask that the petition be placed on the Table of the House and be referred to the department to which it relates. 2395

flay 1, 1979 Tape No. 930 DW - 2 PRESENTL'{G RE?ORTS BY S'!Al\'DlNG AND SPECIAL C0~1!-<.ITTE:ES ~!R . SPEAKER (MR. OIT~'RED!ER): The hon . ~inis t er of Consumer Affairs and Environment. NR. H. COLLINS: Hr. Speaker, I .rould lik e co table the report of the Board of Co~ssioners of Public Utilities as it r elates to the board's functions and activities concerning automobile insurance rates . 2396

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 931 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer): The han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to ~able the financial reports of the Fishing Industry Advisory Board as required under the Act. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, as required under

section 15 of the Farm Development Loan Act,I hereby submit the financial statement certified by the Auditor General, the report ofthe Farm Development Loan Board for the financial year April lst., 1977 to March lst., 1978. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a question for the hon. the Premier. Would the hon. the Premier indicate to the House, Sir, whether any financial arrangements have been made by the government with respect to the former Premier, the present member for Humber West (Mr. F.

Moores), by which I mean financial arrangements to cover any expenses as retired premier or any emolument of any kind as a retired premier, any financial arrangements of any kind, Sir, that the government might have made a decision concerning regarding the former Premier of the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, that matter is now under consideration by government and by myself and will be a matter that will be discussed by Cabinet hopefully this week. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. W. ROWE: Is the hon.

Premier saying that no decision has been made to date at all concerning this matter by the government? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. 2397

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 931 NM - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: No decision has been made, Mr. Speaker, as it relates to the whole question of former premiers or whatever and it will be a mattt:<L Iu.r: discussion in Cabinet in the next couple of days, hopefully this week. MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer): A supplementary. MR. W. ROWE: Sir, the Premier's wording seems to be a little vague. Was any decision made by the government, by the Cabinet, with respect to the former premier, to the member for Humber West (Mr. F. Moores), we cannot refer to him by name in this hon.

House, was any decision made by Cabinet respecting the former premier regarding any financial considerations whatsoever, such decision having been rescinded? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: There were certain decisions made some time ago, Mr. Speaker, about three or four weeks ago I guess, four or five weeks ago, which are now being reviewed by me, were reviewed by me dinnertime today, will be a subject for Cabinet this week. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. W.

ROWE: If the government made a decision, which must have been recorded by way of a Minute or by way of an Order-in-Council, will the hon. the Premier care to disclose to the House what decision was made which is now in the course of being rescinded or changed? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : At this point in time, Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to do that but I will 1 in due course after the matter has been considered by Cabinet, be prepared to make a statement on it. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. 2398

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 931 NM - 3 MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary. Has the former premier of the Province, Sir, received any financial consideration or any other consideration as a result of any decision of Cabinet to this present time? MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer): The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, would the hon. premier indicate to the House what other decisions were made two or three weeks ago, before the former premier decided to quit, what other decisions were made that have since been rescinded or are under review? MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. Premier. There are a number of policy areas, Mr.

Speaker, which are under review that were a matter of decision by the former premier, by the Cabinet before this present Cabinet and this Administration took office,and always of course there will other policies that were made which will be under review when a new Cabinet, or a new Administration looks for new directions on various matters which might have been the direction that a former administration or a former premier took. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. MR.

NEARY: Obviously, Sir, the blush is gone off the rose already and the hon. gentleman now is starting to do some fancy stick handling. Let me be more specific with the hon. gentleman. What other decisions were made in the last month, in the final days of the Moores administration, what decisions were made when the hon. gentleman obviously, so 2399

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 931 MR. NEARY: we are told, went hog wild and made all kinds of decisions, what decisions were made that are now being reviewed by the new Premier and the government? And how many of these decisions were made? MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer l : The hon. Premier . P~UER PECKFORD: There are, as always, Mr. Speaker, there are decisions that were made, policy direction taken 2490

May 1, 1979 Tape 932 PK - 1 Premier Peckford: by a government which will be reviewed in normal course by a new leader and a new Cabinet and that is ongoing right now. The number of themr I do not know how many there are. I have not kept an account of the number; I do not know if there are three, if there are six, or if there are twelve or if there twenty-one. But there are a number of areas where decisions were made by the former administration which are now under review by me and will be by Cabinet in the next week or two weeks.

The number I do not know, but I can try and get the number for the han. gentleman over the next while. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): A supplementary. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman, Sir, I think understands what I am trying to get at, and what I am trying to get at, Mr. Speaker, will make it a little more clear, be a little more specific with the han. gentleman. PREMIER PECKFORD: Please do. MR.

NEARY: For instance,in the final days of the Meares Administration a decision was taken to make Mount Scio house a permanent residence of the Premier, and understand the han. gentleman is now in the process of getting ready to kick out the Premier and move in. Now how many decisions of that kind, of that nature were made that the han. gentleman refused to implement, ~he han. gentleman and his colleagues refused to implement because they were so ridiculous, and the han. former Premier was gone hog wild in his final days. The han. gentleman refused to implement them. How many decisions of that kind were made?

And can the han. gentleman give us some indication of what they were? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well, Mr. Speaker, I do not think I am in the processing of kicking the former Premier out of Mount Scio house, nor am I in the process of moving in. That decision has not been made yet. And therefore, you know, that is totally untrue. Z4D1

May 1, 1979 Tape 932 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: I know of no other matters like that on which I have withheld implementation. There are other areas of government policy, of government decision that were made in the last months which are under review by me and will be by Cabinet. MR. W. N. ROWE: Was he a member of the Cabinet? PREMIER PECKFORD: The nature of those! cannot release at the present moment, Mr. Speaker, because they are a matter of government policy which will have to be decided by Cabinet.

But after decision and consideration and discussion by Cabinet,whether these decisions remain will be indicated if the hon. member wants to know or if there are any changes made in policy then this hon. House will be informed,obviously. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman indicate, Sir, in the final days of the Moores Administration, if the hon. gentleman was a member of the Cabinet? And the hon. gentleman still is? Was?

And was a member of the Cabinet when these decisions were made? And the hon. gentleman went along~knowingly or unknowlingly, whether he was out on the campaign trail or not when these decisions were made? And what I am trying to find out from the hon. genUeman, how much damage did Moores do in his final days before he got out? That is what I am trying to find out. MR. MORGAN: Do not be so foolish, boy. He never did anything . MR. NEARY: I know some of the decisions that were made, know some of them.

Mount Scio house was one.'; But I am asking the hon. gentleman to level with the House and to level with the people of this Province and tell us what Moores did in his final days. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, let it be clear, let it be clear, Mr. Speaker, that intend to level with this hon. House and with the hon. 24C2

May 1, 1979 Tape 932 PK - 3 Premier Peckford: member and every one here. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR NE.AR.Y: MR. FLIGHT: When? MR. NEARY: Let us know. PREMIER PECKFORD: And when the han. member opposite or any han. member opposite or in this House who can propose in this House that I am not levelling with the han. House - MR. NEARY: You are not levelling now. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: - let that han. gentleman state his case. MR. NEARY: Yes. PREMIER PECKFORD: Let that han. gentleman put it clear. And I will say to the han .. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) that if he has information to lay on the Table of the House or to indicate in the way of a question about some specific governmental policy area which I can address myself to~ fine, I will respond to. At this present moment there are a number of policy areas that were implemented some months ago by the former Premier and the Cabinet of that day, of which I was a member, which I am now reviewing and which hopefully then Cabinet will review in due course, for change of direction which I hope to make if I have the support of Cabinet. And these I will be making clear to the hon. House.

If there ·are besides that other areas that the han. member for LaPoile or other members want to ask about, either in writing or in this Oral Question Period,I am only too happy to answer them in full, total, 150 per cent. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, well let me be a little more specific 1~ith the han. gentleman .. - MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: - and I could give the han. gentleman all kinds of examples.Well, let us talk about the oil refinery as one, and letters that were written and signed by Frank D. Moores, Premier of this Province - 2403

May 1, 1979 Tape 932 PK - 4 NR. ~\ORGAN: Are you debating or asking a question? MR. NEARY: - makinG certain c.01111llitments. And 1 can refer to one letter of December 21, 19/tl wri"tten by tne hOn . gentieman' s predecessor, saying that the t1~0 propos a 1 s, the First Arabi an and the Shaheen proposa 1. were going to be reviewed in the same manner by Thorne Riddell. And there is the letter if the hon. gentleman wants it. And the hon. gentlemen obviously have renaged on that, - MR . SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): Order , please! MR. NEARY: - rescinded that order . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please: I must point out that during the Question Period

May 1, 1979 Tape 933 ~-1 MR. SPEAKER: (Ottenheimer) the basic function is for hon. members to ask for information and for hon. members on the other side to provide it and to allow a debate to develop would be to totally alter the nature of the question period. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker - PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, if I may respond to what was kind of a question on Come by Chance - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have not - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please from both hon. gentleman. My original interruption was to point out that the rules do not permit a debate.

The hon. gentleman to my right had been speaking in what I consider to be a debating manner and that is why I interrupted. He had not, to my knowledge at that time, in fact, asked a question so I think I would now recognize him and require him to ask the question. MR. S. NEARY: Well, Sir, this is my final question because obviously I am not going to get the information from the hon. gentleman. What about Mount Scio House? What is the status of that now? Is that now the permanent residence of the Premier? Has it been transferred from Memorial University back to the provincial Department of Public Works?

What is the position of Mount Scio House? MR. S~EAKER: Hon, Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, my difficulty in dealing with some of the questions that the hon. gentleman is posing is that in some of his original or earlier questions the hon. gentleman asked about Mount Scio House and things that happened supposedly in the dying days of another administration or whatever,and I thought that the hon. gentleman was dealing with personal matters dealing with, you know, like Mount Scio House and other things dealing with the former Premier and now the present Premier, where they are going to live and this kind of thing.

Now che hon. gentleman has also entered into the record information on Come by Chance so it is Z405

May 1, 1979 Tape 933 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: difficult for me to grapple with the nature of the subjectschat the hon, member wants answers to. MR. S. NEARY: in the final days! PREMIER PECKFORD: There are so many things that happened on Mount Scio House, there has been no change of status in Hount Scio House. As I indicated, I think to the hon, gentleman in response to an earlier question~ that matter of Mount Scio House was a matter on which I had a meeting during dinner, as a matter of interest to the hon. gentleman - MR. S. NEARY: I am psychic.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, perhaps you are or otherwise involved in information;but I can assure the hon. gentleman that there will be a decision as it relates to Mount Scio House, its disbursement how it will be used, whether it will be the residence of the Premier, whether it will belong to the university or what within the next seven days~hopefully, in that seven days because after Cabinet meeting then it has to be formalized after that into an Orders in Council or whatever but I intend to move swiftly on that in this week and resolve it. As it relates to Come by Chance, Mr.

Speaker, I was not aware off the top of my head of that particular piece of correspondence that the bon. member mentioned. I can only indicate to the hon._gentleman that we have had long and protracted discussions on the Come by Chance project, the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) the President of the Treasury Board, the President of the Executive Council, the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. c. Doody), and other m~ers of the Cabinet as well as the whole of Cabinet.

And right now there is a group of individuals,who work for the Government, in Paris and London talking to all the people who are involved in Come by Chance, full and absolute statement on all matters dealing with Come by Chance will be forthcoming in this hon, House and every single thing and every position that we take will be brought forward and all information will be made available to hon. members. 2406

May 1, 1979 Tape 933 SD - 3 MR. W.N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, if my colleagues will allow I would like to ask one or two other supplementaries arising from some questioning of my colleague here.

The bon .• the Premier has indicated that he is going to level with the House, Well, let me ask him a direct question: There is some evidence to suggest,or I have heard some evidence to suggest that an Order in Council or a : rir,~te of the Cabinet was passed to provide a cer:.ain sum of money, the figure mentioned to me was $30,000 per annum, to the former Premier of this Province with regard to secretarial ilelp, office expenses and so on, Can the Premier confirm or deny whether there was in fact a decision made - tentative or otherwise - to provide the hon. the former Premier with that sum of money,or any other sum of money for that matter?

It might be $5,000, it might be $10,000; the figure I have heard is the amazing figure of $30,000, Would the Premier level with the House and tell us whether a decision was made,which may be in the process of being rescinded,to award the former Premier of this Province the sum of money for whatever purpose per year? MR. SPEAKER: (Ottenheimer) PREMIER PECKFORD: Han. Premier. Yes, Mr.

Speaker, there was an Order in Council passed,which has not been acted upon,on which I had a meeting this morning dealing with the whole question of former Premiers, the former former Premier as well as the former Premier, but there was action taken on the former and former former Premier through Orders in Council which have not been acted upon which I am now having under review. The exact amount of money that was allotted or the way it was allotted to the former Premier and the former former Premier, I am not exactly sure of the level; I do not know if it w•s $30,000 or $20,000 or $10,001T, it was 2407

May 1, 1979 Tape 934 EC - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: some staff, one or two staff members. I think the former former Premier now is under kind of an arrangement with t~e government where we provide him with some money, so that therefore, I think there was a decision made as it related to the farmer Premier along those lines. So there was a decision made as it related to the former Premier and former former Premier.

I have been aware of that decision far a week and a half, two weeks, and I am now in the process of reviewing the whole question of a policy towards former Premiers, seeing there is more than one, and try to treat both gentlemen in this case in the same manner, and,therefore, will be making a policy statement, if you will, on that later on after I discuss it with my Cabinet colleagues. That, of course, also brings in the whole question of Mount Scio House and the other things dealing with a former Premier which he now is. MR. W. N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary,!£ my colleagues will permit. MR.

SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. w. N. ROWE: First of all, I will assume some the Premier will find out the figur~ that was passed by Cabinet - it was a Cabinet decision; the fact that it was not implemented is largely irrelevant, the Cabinet decision was made by Order in Council, he says, which is now part of the record of the administration. Now, Mr. Speaker, am I correct in understanding the Premier that a Cabinet decision was made some~ime before the former Premier got out of office which is what now, a month ago? MR. NEARY: Around there.

May 1, 1979 Tape 934 EC - 2 MR. W. N. ROWE: And the hon. the present Premier, who was a member of that administration, only found out about a Cablnet aec~sion a week ana a nalf ago and it is now under review? Did he not know about it at the time it was made? And if he was not physically present at the Cabinet meeting, did he not receive a circulated copy of the Minute in Council or the Order in Council applying to this? Could the Premier elucidate on that, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I was not at the Cabinet meeting at the time.

Obviously I was on the road campaigning, and I had not looked through the I Minutes in Council or Orders in Council until after I assumed my present office, and that is it. MR. W. N. ROWE: One final supplementary, Sir, if I may - MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR . W. N. ROWE: - unless something startling emerges; I do not think it will. With regard to the Mount Scio House referred to by my hon. colleague, the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary), was there a Cabinet decision made- which may be in the process of reconsideration, or recision for that matter - to allow that house to be the Premier's residence, which it is now for all practical purposes,at a certain rental - $400 or $500 per month, I think, was what was required at the time. AN RON. MEMBER: Six hundred dollars. MR . W. N. ROWE: Six hundred dollars per month, was it? It went up a hundred dollars keeping pace with inflation.

May 1, 1979 MR. NEARY: do not worry about it. MR. w. N. ROWE: Tape 934 EC - 3 ' He never paid it anyway so made-tentative or under discussion or renegotiation or reconsideration or anything else - was a Cabinet decision made to allow that home to be used as the official residence of the Premier for a nominal sum, say one dollar a year or some other small consideration such as that? MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, there was a - I do not know whether it was an Order in Council or whatever there was a decision made to transfer Mount Scio House to be the official residence of the Premier and for a token sum per year. Yes, there was. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Sir. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, would the han. gentleman indicate if one of the decisions made by the former Premier in his final days, now under reviewi if one of these decisions has to do with lifting the freeze off salmon rivers in Labrador? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: I would have to - I am not sure of the detail. I knew about some Labrador - I do not know if it was decisions or discussions on that whole question of salmon rivers in Labrador. MR. MORGAN: The freeze is still on. PREMIER PECKFORD: in Labrador. MR. NEARY: There is a freeze on the rivers That is not the question, Mr. Speaker. The question I asked the hon. gentleman was one of the matters that is under review, not the fact the freeze is still on. Obviously it is, because the han. 2410

Hay 1, 1979 EC - 4 MR. ·NEARY: gentleman has stepped in and said tnat these things will not be implemented, and that is wha~ I am ~rying to find out. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD; I do not know if it was an Order in Council or not. There was for my information - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Listen! Listen! PREMIER PECKP'ORD: I do not know if it was a decision or not. I will have to bow to the Minister of Lands a.nd Forests (Mr. Morgan) on this one. MR. SIMMONS: SOME HON. MEHBERS: PREMIER PECKFORD: You are bowing some low now. Oh, oh! Mr.

Speaker, I just want to answer the question and be truthful with the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), that is all. I am just trying to be fair. My wording is important only in the sense that I am afraid the hon. gentleman will come back and then try to accuse me of saying something wrong. 2411.

May 1, 1979, Tape 935, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: No. no. PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not know if it was a decision of Cabinet, but there was an indication to me- let me put it this way, I will bow until I get the information - there was an indication to me that the freeze was being lifted in Labrador and I, when I became aware of this information, had it made clear that I wanted the freeze to continue in Labrador. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Ottenheimer): A supplementary. The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT: My supplementary is to the Premier based on the answer to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition with regard to the Cabinet decision to have Mount Scio House turned back to the Province to be the official residence of the Premier for a nominal fee of one dollar a month. My question is to the Premier; is that decision also under consideration or reconsideration,or will that decision stand? MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Under reconsideration. There will be a decision made on it on Thursday, hopefully, in Cabinet. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. the member for LaPoile. I want to come back, Sir, to the salmon rivers for a moment. Would the hon. gentleman indicate to the House how he came upon this information that somebody was trying to finagle lifting the freeze on the salmon rivers in Labrador and for what purpose? 241.2

May 1, 1979, Tape 935, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman have any idea what was behind all this? MR. SPEAKER(Ottenheimer): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I know there was some work done some time ago on the whole question - I do not know if by the Department of Rural Development or Lands and Forests or something - about the whole question of salmon rivers in Labrador. I do not know what it was exactly. Perhaps one of the other ministers can answer it. How it came to my attention?

I do know if it came to my attention by one of the ministers bringing it up in a letter, or bringing it up verbally one day in Cabinet, but I can just bow to get that information for him. Now, why the freeze was lifted? I would have to get more information, I do not know. MR. NEARY: became Premier? PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Since the hon. gentleman Yes. I see. Okay.

The hon. the member for I wonder if the Premier would be good enough to- and he may not be able to table the information right now - how many executive assistants does the Premier of the Province currently have? Is there one in Botwood, one in Labrador, one in Grand Falls, one in Buchans, one in Corner Brook? I wonder would be good enough (1) to list the number, the names of the individuals and the salaries they are being paid. MR. PECKFORD: I have undertaken, Mr. Speaker, on a question asked yesterday, to provide all that information in writing to hon. members of this 2413

May 1, 1979, Tape 935, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD :. House and I will so do within seven days as of yesterday. At the present moment, just to give the hon. gentleman a thumbnail sketch so that some of the information will be available, outside of St. John's there is an office in Botwood, a Premier's office in Botwood, a small office there with one person working there as an executive assistant. There is an office in the provincial building in Grand Falls in which there is one or two females working and one gentleman. There is a Premier's office in - MR. FLIGHT: Botwood.

PREMIER PECKFORD: I just said Botwood and I just said Grand Falls. I think I did. I am just going West. In Corner Brook there is a Premier's office, physically, as well as some people on staff there, two ladies, I think. Then, in Happy Valley - Goose Bay there is a small office in which there is just a secretary. I think that is all. In my office right now there is a senior policy advisor who is being under contract. The contract is not finalized, by the way, I did not answer that question yesterday because I was not sure. The contract is not finalized. There is a press secretary, Mr.

Petten, who is under contract. MR. NEARY: Will we get his contract? PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes. Oh yes, that will be tabled. Mr. Alvin Hewlett,who was my executive assistant while I was a minister, is now an executive assistant to the Premier, on the staff. Then there are two or three girls who are secretaries to these individuals who are on the floor. 2414

May 1, 1979, Tape 935, Page 4 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. F.B.ROWE: What about Mr. Nutbeem? Who? Mr. Nutbeem. PREMIER PECKFORD: I answered a question on Mr. Nutbeem last week,or the week before the House adjourned for Easter in which I indicated that he was not doing any work for the government any more. SOME HON. MEMBERS : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Ottenheimer): The original questioner I think was the hon. the member for Conception Bay South. MR.

NOLAN: First of all 1 I compliment the Premier on providing information 1 before we adjourned for Easter and now, which is something we have not been used to. In reference to certain contracts, whether it is the Cole contract or the numbers of executive assistants, is it the intention of the Premier to go with this arrangement. The new Premier of the Pro vi nee? He has the power within this House to make any changes, and in some cases without even going to the House. I mean,is he going to plan some changes in the whole bureaucratic structure set up in the Premier's office? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. MR.

PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there have already been changes. If one notes the people I have already mentioned and some of the people I have not mentioned, there have already been changes made to the Premier's office here in this building as they relate to staff and there has been a reduction and it will be a cost saving to the government as a result. I am now in the process of doing the same thing in the other offices around the Province, 2415

May 1,1979 Tape No. 936 AH-1 PRIDUER PECKFORD: and I just have not had a chance as of this moment to finalize any decisions on it. Hopefully I will be able to do that within the next week as well. But I do intend to change it, yes. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr.Speaker. MR. SPEAKER~(Mr.Ottenheimer) Ron. member for Windsor- Buchans followed by the hon. gentleman from LaPoile. MF.. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr.Speaker, to the Premier. It rises from an answer given to the Leader of the Opposition with regards to the former Premier's residence-or a fund set up for former Premiers.

Now, the Premier indicated that when that particular decision was made that he was not physically present in Cabinet that day and he had got a chance to read the council record. Does the same thing apply for the other issuea raised, the Mount Scio Rouse decision, the Labrador rivers dicision? Were all these decisions made at one cabinet meeting that the Premier missed or were these made over a period of time and the Premier was not present for any of these meetings and has not had a chance up to now to read the Orders-in­ Council? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier.

PREMIER PECICFOtU>: Well,I think that the decisions that the hon. member has mentioned, the issuea~ I think three,you just mentioned, the .hon. member just mention 'ed, that I was not aware of them until I had taken on the office that I now have. So whether it was one meeting or three meetings, I am net sure of the dates so therefore I do not know if it was one meeting or three meetings. All I can tell the hon. gentleman is that I am now aware I think of the three points that the hon. gentleman mentioned and am reviewing and discussing them. MR. NEARY: for the hon. Premier. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: 2416 Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary The hon. member. Would the hon. gentleman

May 1,1979 Tape No. 936 AH-2 MR. NEARY: indicate if another one of the matters that is under review, a decision made in the final days, if it has to do with government aircraft and the use of helicopters and government aircraft? Is there any arrang~ment made to provide the former Premier with complementary - well, you do not issue tickets but complementary government aircraft and helicopters? Was there anything about that in the final days? PREMIER PECKFORD: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker. I know of no new policies that relates to that whole question of transportation. Not to my knowledge.

Ml!.. liEARY : A supplementary. I wonder if the hon. gentleman, Sir, would tell us if he has undertaken to find out what Mr. Bob Cole was doing in Nassau with the former Premier? He had time off to broadcast the hockey game from Philadelphia and then spent a few days in Nassau. Does he report to ~he hon. the Premier and did he have permission from the hon. the Premier to take the time off to go to Nassau to hold a secret meeting down there in the Britannia Hotel? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I have not been aware of the movements of Mr.

Cole as related to his - I understand if he goes and broadcasts a hockey game, I think that under the contract there is some allocation on it. Whether there was a request made to the Director of Administration in the Premier's office,which would be a normal administrative kind of thing for a couple of days or something like that,would not necessarily come to my attention. It did not come to my• attention and I can only presumeluntil I fiind out the information~ whether it was done in that administrative way through the Director of Administration and an employee who normally reports to that director. MR.

NEARY: That will just be great. MR.W.ROWE: MR. SPEAKER:(Mr.Ottenheimer) Opposition. MR. vi.N. ROWE: A supplementary, Sir. Hon. Leader of the If ''e have any time left, 241.7

May 1,1979 Tape No. 936 AH-3 l"R.W. ROWE: I will ask a double-barrelled question so that the Premier can answer it because we are probably running out of time. Is there anv decision made now: or is it under discuss i on or under consideration at the moment1as to whether the government is going to live with the contract entered into with Mr. Bob Cole or whether it is going to attempt to get out off the contract in some way, whether by financial arrangements or otherwise,concerning that gentleman? A highly esteemed gentleman,by the wa~~ut there is a considerable amount of public money involved.

And secondly, Sir, would the Premier undertake to table in this hon. House a list of persons who were employed outside of the Public Service Commission, if any, a list of people who were employed,by contract or otherwise) directly by the executive council, by the cabinet in a period 1 say 1 during the last three months of the former Premier's administration? Would he ask his staff to compile such a list and table it in this hon. House? Perhaps there is nobody. I do not have any ulterior motive for asking the question, Sir.

I am just interested in whether there were any so-called political appointments, contractual · or otherwise,made by the administration in the last three months, ninety days or so, the final days of the former administration. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will table not only the last three months or however long the hon. gentleman wants, but if he wants to limit it in the first instance the three months is fine .nth me. ORDERS OF THE DAY HR. SPEAKER: Order 1.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The District Court Act, 1976," carried. (Bill No. 29). On motion, Bill No. 29 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 241.8

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 937 DW - 1 Motion, the hen. the Hinister of Justice tn i.nt:rnduce a hill, "An Act To Reform The Law Respectine The Property Of Married P®5§9Pit u carried. (Bill No, 33). On motion, Bill No. 33 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hen. Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Securities Act," carried. (Bill No, 30). Motion, Bill No. 30 read a first time, ordered read second time on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: Order 13, the adjourned debate on Bill No. 15. The hen. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, it was brought to my attention after I finished speaking yesterday afternoon Sir that I forgot to finish ·' . the story on the two buildings in Stephenville,the two buildings that were put on public tender. There was one bidder;Canadian Javelin tendered,were awarded the tender for $250,000 and then, following the takeover by the present administration,an investigation launched by the RCMP into awarding these two buildings by public tender.

There was an RCMP investigation which kind of backfired and they had to change their tune because they ~iscovered 1 much to their amazement,and they were not told by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Hickman) who is still the Minister of Justice,that an ad had appeared in the newspaper,that public tenders had been called for these two buildings. And the reason I am repeating myself now, Sir, I forgot to finish the story.

The grand finale to that story is that this same crowd,who saw fit to have a RCMP investigation into the transfer of these two buildings,then took the buildings back, refunded the $100,000 and gave the two buildings to a Tory hack for one dollar a yearl That is the grand finale to that story. 2419

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 937 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: The same hon. crowd who thought this matter should be investigated by the RC }~,took the buildings back, refunded the $100,000 to Canadian Javelin,and then gave the buildings to one of their buddies, one of their supporters,for one dollar a year to be turned into apartment buildings - MR. R. MOORES: Ninety-nine years. MR. S. NEARY: - for ninety-nine years I think the lease is. Mr. Spe~ker, I hope hen. members, Sir, are grasping what I am saying.

What I _ am saying is a fact,and the hon. gentleman better make a note, if the hon. gentleman is going to be follow me instead of getting nasty and personal and trying to smear me,as the hon. gentleman usually does in the House-but the news media are getting wise to the hon. gentleman-instead of trying to use that diversionary tactic; let the hon. gentleman ans1•er the charge. AN HON • HD!BER: Sit down! Do not be so foolish. MR. S. NEARY: Never mind getting up and saying, 'Oh, the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) is a puppet of this one or a puppet of that one.' That does not wash anymoreL\nswer the charge and answer all of the other charges and allegations that I made in this House yesterday. And let me repeat what I am saying, Sir. This administration when they took over-Mr. Crosbie with his skinfull of hate and venom and the present Minister of Justice (}rr. Hickman)­ had the RCMP investigate the transfer of two buildings in Stephenville on the Harmon Complex that were put up on public tender with an ad in the newspaper and one bid,$250,000 from Canadian Javelin. tiR. J. CARTER: Tell me about ~ohn. MR. S.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman's head is so thick if he does not understand what I am saying, Sir. We have the candidate lined up for the hon. gentleman.And the han. gentleman talking yesterday about numbers, the hen. gentleman's number is up. 2420

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 937 DW - 3 ill\. J. CARTER: If you cannot take it, do not give it. ~~. s. N~6_RV: B~ck i_p th'? ~~vnry !">.:1rch,. }.lr _ sp .. ,ke.r. HR. F. ROivE: He had better put the seeds in in a hurry. 2421.

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 938 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, then what did they do with these two buildings? Did they then call public tenders for these two buildings that had been sold previously for $250,000 to provide offices for the Linerboard mill at Stephenville? No, they did not call public tenders, Sir. They gave the buildings to one of their buddies, one of their supporters, for $1 a year for 99 years, to be converted into apartment buildings and then the gentleman whose company converted it could not even make a go of it then. Now how is that? How is that, Hr.

Speaker, for a crowd that felt the Liberals had given Mr. Doyle and Canadian Javelin these two buildings? And I also yesterday, Sir, referred to Labrador linerboard as a company and not a Crown corporation, and I did not finish the story on that one either and I am going to finish it now. MR. J. CARTER: Never mind what you said yesterday. What are you going to say today? MR. NEARY: This is what I am going to say today.

I am going to tell the hon. gentleman something that he does not know 1 and I am sure every day the hon. gentleman, every wet day when it is wet outside and the hon. gentleman cannot get in the savoury patch, fine days the hon. gentleman is not here, on wet days the hon. gentleman swaggers into the House, does not make any contribution just sits there like a useless stick of furniture. MR. W. ROWE: Jim Case will finish him off. MR. NEARY: We have got the candidate that will finish him off. The hon. gentleman learns something, I am sure 1 every wet day of his life.

So I referred yesterday, Sir, to this company, not a Crown corporation. And there is a big difference,because as I indicated to the House yesterday, 2422

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 938 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: the government, the r-:Iinister of Justice and the Minister of Finance refused to date to give us any information on Labrador Linerboard. And I suggested yesterday to the House that is why the company was registered under the Companies Act and not made a Crown corporation. But, Mr.

Speaker, hon. members will be probably shocked to learn that back in 1976 when International Forest Products, th~ people who were under contract down in Boston to market the linerboard, the ones that had ripped off Labrador Linerb~ard, skimmed off money and put it into offshore companies in the B.ahamas and in Bermuda, this same company,whose principal was Mr. Robert Kraft, International Forest Products. Mr. Robert Kraft, a man who could not be trusted, I was shocked when I got the share list to find out in 1976 that apart from ministers of the Crown that Mr.

Robert Kraft was on the share list of that company, was on the Board of Directors of that company. And Mr. Howard Ingram, President and General Manager of Labrador Linerboard who was installed in that position by Mr. Kraft, was on the Board of Directors of Labrador Linerboard and on the share list shown in 1976. What kind of a corporate set up was that, Mr. Speaker? Here you have the General Manager of Labrador Linerboard, Mr. Ingram, installed by Mr. Kraft in his job and you have Mr. Kraft marketing the product and you have Mr. Kraft on the Board of Directors of Labrador Linerboard. AN HON. MEMBER: MR.

NEARY: good arrangement. A good arrangement. Well I should hope it was a Mr. Kraft had her made.And I heard a minister say today-and I am sorry to have to repeat this; I will not mention the minister who said it but it nearly 2423

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 938 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: made me sick to my stomach just to show you how irresponsible and how stupid, as we say in Newfoundland, how stunned this hon. crowd are - I was talking about Egret, the offshore company in Bermuda that skimmed off $55 a ton for the Linerboard, and the

May 1, 1979 Tape 939 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: for the Linerboard. And the minister remarked to me, "Well, we can find no evidence here of any wrongdoing because International Forest Products said they would pay $320 to the Linerboard mill and they kept their contract and they paid $320." Well, I nearly died, Sir. Just imagine! It did not make any difference to that hon. gentleman what they skimmed off, how much they skimmed off that should have gone to the Labrador Linerboard! And now he says~ Wehave no way of finding out because the company is gone and they will not be back.

They are registered down in Boston, Massachusetts." Well, it was that same hon. minister and that same hon. crowd that entered into the agreement with International Forest Products in the first place, was it not? And they have to take the responsibility for it, Sir. And I was kind yesterday when I called it mismanagement. It is skulduggery and crookedness of the worst kind, and not on the part of the hon. gentleman, but on the part of this company down in Boston, International Forest Products. There should be a Royal Commission of Inquiry to look into the operation of Labrador Linerboard mill.

The RCMP, if indeed they still are investigating this case, it is only the tip of the iceberg. This fellow down in Boston comes from nothing and spends a million dollars to buy a tennis team down there, thanks to the taxpayers of Newfoundland who are being bled to keep the Labrador Linerboard mill going. And he did not have sense enough to keep the tennis team going, that went belly-up too. And nothing sets the devil in me more than when I see the high taxes we are paying in this Province. And that is why we are paying high taxes, because of extravagance and waste and skulduggery.

And that gentleman down in Boston,who never had a pot to sit on, ends up buying a tennis team! If he had bought a hockey 2425

May 1, 1979 Tape 939 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: team, as I said last session, we might have all been interested in it. Good hockey fans, we are. And, Hr. I -will t~l! you. T have gone South of the border, and I am going South of the border again, down in the United States, and if the hon. gentleman does not think the RCMP or Interpol or the ministry cannot get the information,then I will get it myself if I have to, even though the present Minister of Justice (Mr.

Hickman) threw an obstruction in my way when I tried to get information from the law firm in Bermuda and Stirling International in San Francisco, and I have the correspondence down in my office to prove it. The hon. the Minister of Justice threw an obstruction in my way. I would have gotten the information. If the RCMP could not get it, I could have gotten it. And I had written these firms and the information was on the way to me when they received a communication from the Deputy Minister of Justice, Mr.

Macaulay, acting under instruction from the minister 1 not to provide me with the information because the RCMP were investigating this case. That year, Sir, in 1976, the year to which I am referring - that was not the only year, there were two or three years ~hen a share list was filed for this company, Labrador Linerboard- but in this particular year here were the shareholders of Labrador Linerboard: the hon. John C. Crosbie, Chairman of the Board, the hon. C. William Doody, Confederation Building, St. John's, the hon. Ed Maynard, Confederation Building, St. John's, the hon. E.

Ingram, Stephenville, President, and Robert Kraft, 1 Boston Place, Boston, Massachusetts. And the hon. ministers think that this is the feeling and the thinking of the ministry that we got what we were promised for the Linerboard, we got what was under contract. And remember now, Mr. Speaker, that International Forest 2426

May l, 1979 Tape 939 £C - 3 ~R. NEARY: Products was under contract for the Linerboard mill to sell linerboard at the highest price they could get in the marketplace . And one miulsl~r had t he audacity to sa y to me today that Labrado r L1nerboard got their ~320 a ton and''it did not make any difference to us what Mr. Kraft and International Forest Products ripped off~ That is in fact what the bon. gentleman vas sayingJ and~we have no way of finding out. There appears to be no wrongdoing here~ Well, it happened right while the bon. gentleman was on the Board of Directors. And now what happens, Mr. Sp eaker? Is the whole thing now going to be swept under the rug? Are we 2427

May 1, 1979 Tape 940 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: going to see ministers now who were on the Board of Directors of that Labrador Linerboard mill stand up in this House and say;• Not I, Lord! Not I! Everything was right and proper and aboveboard ~1hen I was on the Board of Directors," when in actua 1 fact, Sir, that is not true.

Newfoundlanders and the taxpayers were being shafted right under the noses of the ministers by Messers Ingram and Kraft who were in collusion, who had conspired to milk Labrador Linerboard for everything it was worth. gave the House already one example Sterling International,who were forced to pay $55 a ton to Egret in Bermuda a dummy company, an offshore company. And I said last year that if that was the pattern then you are talking about anywhere from $20 million to $30 million of money that should have gone into Labrador Linerboard mill that went into the pockets of the parasites down in Massachusetts and Mr.

Ingram who had his taxes paid for by Messers Kraft and International Forest Products. Now, Mr. Speaker, how blunt and how more po~nted can I be to try to rivet the message home to the administration? What do I have to do? What do I have to do, Sir? Will they now stand up and say, Oh, no everything is all right, when in actual fact they do not know?

I know, Sir, from talking to members on the opposite side of the House, The first time they find out about these things is when they are raised on this side of the House and they get the shock and they are taken back, and they say,"Oh God,why were we not told about this? Why were we not told about it?" I do not know why they were not told about it. They are being told about it now. Mr. Speaker, I would need a front-end loader to bring up the documents that I have down in my office and put on the Table of this House.

And I am not going to do it today, Sir, I am merely going to - am going to end my f~~ remarks. did not intend to carry on very long this afternoon, but I have all kinds of other stuff. But I do hope, Mr. Speaker, do hope, Sir, that we will not hear in this House this afternoon -and hope the press wi 11 take due 2428

May 1, 1979 Tape 940 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: note of this; remember that I was very careful during my speech not to smear any members of the House or attack any characters of any me;nters of the House, and if I did, Sir, I wou1d have been uut of order as Your Honour knows. I did not attribute any motives to any particular member of this House. And I hope, Sir, I hope that when speakers get up from the other side of the House that they will do likewise and that they will answer the charges and not try to belittle me or undermine my credibility or smear me because I could not care less.

It is the people that count, it is the taxpayers that count, and han. gentlemen better remember that as hon. gentlemen, Sir, have to take the responsibility. And I do not mind, I have big shoulders, I can take it, know there are whispering campaigns, and I have been the victim of their smear but could not care less, Sir. I took it before and I will take it again. And I can assure the ministry that we are going to get to the bottom of this pile of manure, this rotten cesspool that is there in regard Labrador Linerboard. And that is the one we are dealing with at the moment, there are others.

We are going to get to the bottom of that one. And we will get to the bottom of that sale eventually too. Mr. Speaker, I must say before I entered into this debate I looked at the prospectuses that were submitted to the financial people by the Province)to 2429

May 1,1979 Tape No. 941 AH-1 MR. NEARY: the financial people in the United States when they went to the bond market. And I have not been able to find out, I must say that I have gone over the prospectus with a finetoothed comb and I must say there is a variation, there is a difference. Each time the figures · are given they are given differently. I have never been able to figure out what really,actually was the total tonnage produced at Labrador Linerboard. I have never been able to figure it out. I wrote some figures down but I am not going to give them to the Rouse now but they are different.

I saw one figure at 346,000 tons as of March 1976 and then that went up to 400, 000 tons. Perhaps the minister can straighten me out and give me the actual production of that mill. I am not talking about the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.Doody) I am talking about the minister who introduced the bill. But anyway that brings me up now, Mr. Speaker, in my final remarksJto the deal itself. And I want to make this abundantly clear, Mr. Speaker, that I am happy for the people of Stephenville and I am happy for the people in the Bay St.

George area but I am sad for Newfoundland and I am sad for the taxpayers of this Province who now have to cough up S750 million. I know the hon. gentleman when he gets up will~say,"Oh yes,but we have to rescue this white elephant from" - t~e hon. gentleman said we snatched victory from the jaws of defeat. Well, Sir, if they snatched it from the jaws of defeat they spent $300 million doing it. Mismanagement of the mill, skulduggery, giveaway , graft, corruption on the part of the people whoweremarketing the product. The truth of the matter is, Sir, that this was a giveaway. At the present time, Mr.

Speaker, I am told by the experts that there is a great demand and a great shortage of linerboard throughout the world and the prices on the market are at the highest level in the history of linerboard. And in the face of that, Mr. Speaker, the government sells Labrador Linerboard for an amount of money that would appear to be in the vicinity of $43.5 million. But in fact, 2430

May 1,1979 Tape No. 941 AH-2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is not true and to the purchasing ~ompany Abitib4this is a large-s~ale gain• Sir, a large-scale gain. In reality the people of Newfoundland get less than nothing on every aspect of this transaction. And the fa~t of the matter is, Sir, that the provincial government made no attempt whatsoever to get responsible outside bidders but restricted the sale to the gigantic ~ombination of Abitibi and Mr. Desmarais ' ~ompanies. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated to the House yesterday, the Government were talking in two separate boardrooms, talking to two separate ~ompanies at the same time that had the same parent company and it was common knowledge, Mr. Sp!!aker, it was coliUilon knowledge , even to fellows like myself,that the companies had interrelating stock holdings. And secondly, Sir, they were about to become merged into one corporation. PREMIER PECKFORD: When did that happen? MR. S. NEARY: That happened within days after Abitibi was given this gift which was of tremendous benefit to the company. MR. MORGAN: That is nonsense. MR. S.

NEARY: It is not nonsense, Sir, not nonsense at all. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I am working on two other projects right now that will take me sometime to unravel~ two others. MR. MORGAN: Is one the leadership? MR. S. NEARY: No, one is not the leadership. I have not had time yet to even think about that. I am thinking about the takeover of Brinco and somebody 1. as far as I can learn ~ somebody was tipped off and there was a little activity, a little flurry of activity on the market before the Government bought Churchill Falls Corporation, 2431.

May 1, 1979 Tape 942 GH-1 MR. NEARY: the same gentleman I referred to in this House yesterday and I hope to get that information from the Quebec Security Exchange. Maybe there is nothing to it, Sir, but I am one of these 'doubting Thomases' and I like to be shown, I like to put my finger into the wound. I am in the process of asking the Quebec Security Exchange to provide me with certain information to see if there was a little flurry of activity of Brinco stock before the govern­ ment took over Churchill Falls. I am hoping that there was not.

And the other thing, Sir, I am told and I will find this out,too, that there was a little flurry of activity of Abitibi stock before they were given this $750-million facility in Stephenville for $43.5 million - a gift. In actua·l fact, they paid nothing for it. The mill, Sir, if you look at the $43.5 million, it is true that the government sold the mill for less than half the value of one of the paper machines in that mill right at a time, Sir, and I want to emphasize this,when linerboard was never as much in demand and the price was never as high, and I confirmed this recently with brokers in the United States.

So the government, by their own admission, Sir, lost up to this point $300 million and now with the Government of Canada allowing the purchaser to write off a tax loss that the people of Newfoundland will eventually have to pay anyway, because they will not get that much rebated from the Government of Canada in their corporation taxes. I wonder how can the hon.

President of the Council, the Government House Leader, the hon. gentleman who bailed out on a matter of principle when Craig Dobbin was going to be given some kind of a secret deal to rent office space to the Newfoundland Government, the hon. gentleman bailed out and 2432

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 942 GH-2 MR. NEARY: now he is back again and sits there while this kind of skulduggery is going on. 'rhe hon. gentleman said, "Well, you have not proved anything to me". I can hear the hon. gentleman nowr "You have not proved that there was a playing around with stock of Abitibi before this facility was given to Abitibi as a gift". Is that what the hon. gentleman is thinking, that I have not proved that? Well, the han. gentleman can go and check the stock market just as well as I can around that time to see if there was a little flurry of activity.

I have heard people say, "Well, what is the real reason for the retirement and what is the real reason for quitting and all this sort of stuff?" And I have heard people say, "There was a rip-off". Well, I do not think that at all, Sir. Well, yes, I am sorry, I should not have said that. I do not think that anybody today is foolish enough in this kind of a deal to go for the hard coal. There are other ways to do it. Stock is the way to do it, and I will find out in due course.

There may not be a thing in this world to it - not a thing in the world to it but I intend to find out now that we have the expert on stocks and bonds back into the House. Perhaps the hon. gentleman will be able to help me. The hon. gentleman might be able to help me. The hon. gentleman has become a walking encyclopedia on investing in stocks and bonds and perhaps the hon. gentleman could advise me. What I am trying to find out, Mr.

Speaker, and the hon. gentleman might be able to advise me how to go about it~ I am arguing that there was a lot of activity with Abitibi stock prior to the gift that was given to Abitibi by Santa Claus>by this Province to the tune of $750 million. There was a lot of activity and what I am 2433

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 942 GB- 3 MR. NEARY: saying is somebody had the inside dope. Is that possible? My hon. friend is an expert in these matters. Is it possible for somebody to get a tip, to get the inside dope? Is that possible? MR. LUNDRIGAN: It happened once before, I believe . MR. NEARY: It happened once before. AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: You mean somebody sitting in the cabinet or somebody sitting in the House - A..\1 HON. HEHBER: (Inaudible ) stock. MR. NEARY: - would give somebody an inside tip, like the Churchill Falls takeover - Brinco. Could somebody have been tipped off and bought a substantial amount of 24~4

May 1, 1979 Tape 943 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Brinco shares before the purchase took place and make a killing? l1R. ~pFIGAN: The expert on Br1nco is no~ in the House any longer. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. LUNDRIGAN: The expert on - MR. NEARY: Well, okay, but the expert on Abitibi is in the House. Could it happen with Abitibi? Could somebody be tipped off? Could it happen? MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. NEARY: MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. NEARY: It could happen, yes. It could happen. That is right. I see. Well, I thank the hon. gentleman for helping me, because I intend to find out if, in fact, it did happen. MR.

LUNDRIGAN: Is my bon. friend putting forward the suggestion that Abitibi went up because of an (inaudible). MR. NEARY: My suggestion is, Sir, that somebody had the inside track, that somebody was tipped off. That is the suggestion. MR. LUNDRIGAN: The stock was bought after the purchase, the Abitibi Price merger after the purchase of Labrador Linerboard. MR. NEARY: Is that right? I see. Well, whether somebody made a killing before or after, as a result of their manipulating inside the walls of this building - AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

NEARY: My hon. friend, I am sure, is interested and could really advise me on this one. MR. LUNDRIGAN': That is only a little thing for Paul Desmarais. 2435

May 1, 19 79 Tape 943 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: It would be a big thing for somebody in this Province but not a big thing for Mr. Paul Desmarais. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: !UL LUNDRIGAN: (Inaudible). Is that right? Well, what is your suggestion? What is the hon. member saying? MR. NEARY: The suggestion is, Sir, that somebody made a ~illing over both the Churchill Falls takeover and the Linerboard takeover. Somebody made a killing. MR. LONDRIGAN: Churchill Falls stock never moved a bit until it was taken over. MR. NEARY: MR . LONDRIGAN: MR. NEARY: Is that right? Not a bit. Until it was taken over?

That is precisely what I said. MR. LUNDRIGAN: It was $4.50 before it was taken over - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is confirming what I have said, that somebody had a tip and bought the sold it high. MR. LONDlUGAN: MR. DOODY: MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. NEARY: MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. MORGAN: now, MR. NEARY: stock low. They bought the stock low and There was none bought low. There was no trading. No activity in the stock at all. We,ll, we certainly - You say I am the resident expert. You are confused in your story Sir, I certainly appreciate the advice of the expert in the House on stocks and bonds.

Maybe the bon. gentleman can help me unravel my suspicion 2436

!!lay l, 1979 Tape 943 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: or my problem. If I have one the hon. gentleman might be able to help me with it. MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. NEARY: Absolute~y. ~o problem. Because I would like to find out who in this Province - MR . LUNDRIGAN: I have a hot tip for the member - International Helium. HR. NEARY: Well, that is good. I would like to find out who in this Province made a killing as a result of the takeover of Labrador Linerboard mill, if anybody did. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Nobody did. MR. NEARY: ~obody did? MR. LUNDRIGAN: No. MR. NEARY: Okay, I will find out in due course. MR.

LUNDRIGAN: I can tell you how to ~ind out. MR. NEARY: Is the bon. gentleman prepared to lay his sessional pay on the table of the House - MR. DOODY: SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: It is in escrow. Oh, oh! - to back up what he just said. that nobody but nobody made a killing off Abitibi? MR. LUNDRIGAN; MR. NEARY: I am not a betting man. Not a betting man. I did not think the hon. gentleman was. Mr. Speaker, the $300 million representing the construction that started up and the maintenance of the Labrador Linerboard mill - the $300 million represents a loss to the people of this Province.

And we still do not know if these figures are right. We can only assume $300 million is tbe final figure. 2437

May 1, 1979 Tape 943 EC - 4 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I do not know the reason why the former Premier - we have established today in the House the hon. gentleman did some weird and wonderful things in his final days. Why, even Mr. Nixon did not go that far. In the final days of the former Premier he did some weird and wonderful things so we are told - the word is starting to get ou~. We only just touched on some of the things today . HR. MORGAN: that? MR. NEARY: that. MR. DOODY: MR. F. ROWE: when he answers. Or did John C. Doyle dream Yes, there is no doubt about It is pretty obvious. (Inaudible) the Premier MR.

NEARY: I told the hon. gentleman yes~erday, Sir, where he could find his film- go down and check Mr. George McLean's accounts. That is all the hon. gentleman has to do if he wants to find a scandal, go and check the accounts, the bills that were put into the hon. gentleman's department, and then find out if the hen. gentleman got the service. That is all the hon. gentleman has to do. As a matter of fact, I will help the hon. gentleman; bring them up, put them on the table of the House and I will check them out for the hon. gentleman if he is ashamed to do it.

The former Premier of this Province, Sir, was called by ~he major newspapers across Canada during this whole scheme, 'Santa Claus Moores'. That is what they called him, the Toronto newspapers and Montreal newspapers, 'Santa Claus Moores'. The reason, Sir, is that in this transaction he 2438

May 1, 1979 Tape 943 EC - 5 HR. NEARY: not only gave a majo r gift tO the g i g antic corporations at the expense of the whole public, of the taxpayers in this ~rovince, out it g a ve even a bigger gift ~o ~ r. Desmarais and the Powe r Corpo ra tion of Can a da in that the tax loss of Labr a dor Linerboard mill when taken over by Abitibi is to be used by the Po wer Corporation, Consolidated Bathu r st and Abitibi to pay off the S43.5 million . M!l. LUNORIGAN: MR . ~lEARY: Wha ~ ? Pay off what? To pay off the tax concessions, will pay off the $43.5 million.

In other words, Sir, we have $300 millions of dollars spent by the government to keep the mill going -mismanaged; we have the tax loss, loss in corporation tax - I do not kno w how much that is. I wish I knew which one of the financial geniuses on the government benches would tell us. And we have the replacement value of the mill, which is $450 million. So ov er a pe ri od of the next ten years, Mr. Speaker, what you are talking about in loss es to the peo~le of this Province, to the taxpayers of Newfoundland, 2439

May 1, 1979 Tape 944 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: is $1 billion. $450 million replacement value, $300 million spent in start-up and construction and operating the mill and the tax write-off, close to $1 billion. That is what the deal is, that is what the deal will cost the taxpayers of this Province. I believe, Sir, that Abitibi will have money to spare. Not only wi ll they get their $43.5 million, but they will have money to spare. And they will not only have money to spare but they will be able to pay for their acquisition of the takeover of Consolidated Bathurst. And, Mr.

Speaker, the saddest part of all and the cru~lest part of all,that in addition to all I have said, Sir, that the former Premier of this Province and his government had to know the true nature of the deal prior to its authorization by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador and the principal financial analysists of Canada are fully aware that the Newfoundland Government provided a gift. Mr. Speaker, as to the employment in the Province and in the Bay St. George area as a result of this gift 1 the employment picture as a result of a much smaller operation will see a smaller number of people employed.

If the Labrador Linerboard mill had not been closed and continued to operate, Sir, in a normal fashion, we could have averted this disaster and we could have provided more employment in the Bay St. George area. And the people would have been working all along and they would have been working today. But now, today, they are down struggling with the officials of Abitibi Price trying to find out when they are going to start up the mill and when they are going to start hiring Newfoundland people. So, Mr.

Speaker, in conclusion, Sir, I again want to appeal to honourable gentlemen not to attempt to slander members on this side of the House, not to try to attempt to smear anybody through innuendo or direct accusation but answer the charges. That is all I ask hon. gentlemen to do. I have laid it out as bold as I can, as blunt as I can without pointing the finger of suspicion. MR. MARSHALL: You have not slandered anybody.?· MR. NEARY: No, Sir. MR. F. ROWE : No. 2440

May 1, 1979 Tape 944 IB-2 MR. NEARY: Ah, yes, I have nailed Mr. Kraft, and if the han. member wants to protect Mr. Kraft and come to Mr. Kraft's defense he can do HR. MORGAN: That is not (inaudible). MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, I make no apologies for calling Mr. Kraft a rip -off artist and if the administration wants to defend him let them go ahead and do it . MR. J. CARTER: Have you said that outside the House. MR. NEARY: Yes, I have said it outside the House and I have a letter from ~lr. Kraft threatening to sue me but I have not seen the summons yet. MR. D.INN: Say that outside the House. HR. F.

ROWE: He must be the defender of Kraft. MR. NEARY: Oh there is the defender of International Forest PrO'ducts and Mr. Kraft. MR . F. RffiiE: Then they had the gall to talk about you and Doyle. MR . NEARY: Answer the chaNJeS, that is all I ask the han. gentlemen to do. Do not be evasive. Do not try to divert attention by trying to smear or use diversionary tactics. Face up to the situation :nan fashion and give us the answers or better again let us have a royal commission to look into the affairs, the operations of Labrador Linerboard Mill.

And the han. gentleman can get up and say, "Oh, there was no wrongdoing when twas there", 2441

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 945 GH-1 MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman knows that he ~an not say that with a straight fa~e. Maybe no wrongdoing on the part of the hon. gentleman but as long as Mr. Kraft and Mr. Ingram were there, there was ~ollusion, there was ~ollusion, Sir, there was ~ollusion and there was a plot and there was a ~onspira~y to milk Newfoundland Linerboard. Can the hon. gentleman get that through his thi~k skull? AN HON. MEMBER: Say that outside the House. MR. NEARY: Say it outside the House~ Say it outside the House~ I will say it outside the House in spades.

And if the hon. gentleman wants me to say it standing on my head suspended in mid-air I will say it. But what will be done about it? MR. DINN: Say it outside the House. MR. NEARY: What is the administration going to do about it? MR. J. CARTER: Find out what will happen when you say that outside the House. MR. NEARY: Would Your Honour tell me how you ~an deal with tht kind of situation, Sir? How ~an you deal with it? I am so frustrated. MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: South of the border, down Panama way. I told the hon. gentleman what to do.

Go down and get out George M~Lean' s ac~ounts· and bring them up to the House so that we ~an have a look at them and find out who got the ring - the $12,000 ring. MR. MORGAN: I wish I knew. MR. NEARY: I know. I know who got it. Do not worry, I know who got it. It is really funny you know, Mr. Speaker, it is really funny.

I would suspe~t that the taxpayers of this Province in six or seven years have been ripped off for literally millions piled upon millions, millions and millions of dollars and they will be paying off and their ~hildren will be paying off for the mismanagement, the skulduggery and the extravagan~e and waste of this administration. They ~442

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 945 GH-2 MR. NEARY: will be paying it off for the next hundred years. One billion dollars is what that deal is worth to Abitibi Price. That is kind of funny, is it not? And as I said, Sir, a few moments ago, I am happy for the people of the Bay St. George area and the people in Stephenville and nobody is more tickled that they are getting an industry but I am very sad, Sir, for Newfoundland and the taxpayers of this Province. AN RON. MEMBER: MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: (Ottenheimer) SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. C. W. DOODY: Hear, hear! (Inaudible) only John C. Doyle. Ron. Minister of Mines ana Energy.

Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, I have just a few words to add to the debate in this particular instance. I have no intention of getting involved in the sort of diatribe that my hon. friend has demonstrated over the past two days. I have attempted to take some notes as he proceeded, the hon. gentleman proceeded, but there was so much vitriol and there was such a torrent of hatred coming through that it was difficult to try to glean some grain out of chaff.

It appeared to be a sort of a mixture of get Crosbie, get Moores and whatever happens in the process is all fair game but we are not allowed to reply in kind, are not allowed to demonstrate any smears or any innuendo or any remarks that might be deemed as being uncomplimentary to the hon. gentleman opposite, because that is not the sort of thing in which he deals, he is a gentleman of high honour and principle and I respect him for it. I would much prefer to address myself to this particular bill which is the transfer of the asset at Stephenville to Abitibi.

I was very involved in the situation at the time and it is rather amazing and in some cases amusing, to hear how the hon. gentleman can manage to twist and distort what is, in effect, a good deal for the Bay St. George area particularly, and for the Province generally, 2443

r. May 1, 1979, Tape 946, Page 1 -- apb MR. DOODY: into what appears to be one of the greatest corporate rip-offs of all times. We have just discovered,in the closing comments,that this particular deal is going to be worth $1 billion or so to Abitibi and the people " of Newfoundland are going to lose not only that particular billion, but are also going to lose 30 per cent of the corporate tax that we never would have gotten on a company that we did not own, that was not making a profit anyway. The mathematics are a bit dubious, the train of logic is a bit tangled, but it does make for good rhetoric.

The cause for the takeover in the first place~from Javelin to the Province, that is a matter that was debated here in this particular House, this hon. House on several occasions and I have no doubt that it will be debated for a great deal of time to come. The hon. gentleman feels that it was because Mr. Crosbie disliked Mr. Doyle. Mr. Doyle may very well be of that opinion. My memory tells me that the Province was on the back of a large debt load and there was no apparent salvation in sight. It appeared that a lot more money was going to go down the drain and there were two choices available.

In retrospect, I must say in all honesty I feel that it would have been far wiser from a purely business sense, from a purely profit and loss point of view to have closed the operation then, to have taken it over and closed it, liquidated it and then sold the asset to some private corporation and have done with it at that point, to have washed our hands of it at that time, to have washed our hands of John C. Doyle and have washed our hands of a big corporation which government was ill­ equipped to manage and ill-advised to purchase. 2444

May 1, 1979, Tape 946, Page 2 -- apb MR. DOODY: However, that is the benefit of hindsight. There were many people who argued then with a great deal of logic that having invested $100 and some million dollars into a corporation,the least the people of the Bay St. George area could expect was that government give it a decent opportunity to survive, to give it a try, at least, and see if it could be made to work, to take it over, to form a company owned by the Crown and to let it operate in the public and the private market. And so that course was taken.

Over the years it was demonstrated quite conclusively to all who wanted to look at it, that that was not a viable operation under government's control. The linerboard market was never in a position to sustain the kind of costs that that mill engendered. The losses were counted in hundreds of millions of dollars. It was a bottomless pit, it was going nowhere, it was an albatross around the neck of the Province. The credit rating of the Provi nee was in jeopardy, the people of the Bay St.

George area were in a constant state of anxiety because they knew as well as we knew that that company was always and forever in danger of going under, that there was a limit beyond which the Province could not go in trying to sustain that albatross and so regretfully the decision was made to close it and I was the one elected or selected to go to Stephenville and so inform the people. It was not a very pleasant job. As a matter of fact, it was probably one of the most unpleasant things that anybody has ever had to do who has ever been in this particular House.

But we did take that decision and I must say, once again with hindsight, 2445

T May 1, 1979, Tape 946, Page 3 -- apb MR. DOODY: this time I think we have ~de the right decision~ A lot of money had gone down the dr~in, perhaps more than was necessary. We had a management problem, we had a geography problem, but most of all we had a c .osting problem because of wood supply and a marketing problem because of the lack of competitiveness because of our isolated status in the corporate · arena.

We were an isolated mill on our own, not integrated in any way, in no position to compete with the Southern United States' mills, the cost of whose finished product was i!l many cases less thah the cost of our raw material. And so it was decided that we would ' close the mill, do the best we possibly could for the employees of the mill and go through an orderly shutdown and put together a divestiture committee.

We had sought and obtained the advice of some o.f the more interested and capable business people both in the Province and outside the Province, people who were interested and knowledgeable in the industry and people who were interested and knowledgeable in our 2446

~l!ay 1, 1979 Tape No. 947 GH-1 MR. DOODY: our Province and it was their recommendation which we eventually followed which, in effect, underlined and reinfo.cceo..l upir1ions that many cf us had come to before. And so, a divestiture committee was then formed and we deal now with our under-the-table deal that we heard so much about yesterday, all this under-the-table deal, the secret deal, the deal that was done and without the knowledge of anybody, the deal that was worked out secretly in the boardrooms of Abitibi and Connie Bathurst.

This divestitute committee that was formed was headed up by the Deputy Minister of Industrial Development, or at least in the beginning was headed by the Secretary of Treasury Board, but eventually by the Deputy Minister of Industrial Development; and there were others, the Deputy Minister of Forestry, various others, the Deputy Minister of Finance, the members, representatives of the unions in the area, representatives of the communities, representatives of mill management, those that remained after the closedown, one only gentleman - a gentleman to whom we will be forever indebted, a man named Scott Chalmers, whom if he had not stuck with us through that difficult divestiture period we would have found it difficult indeed to get all the facts, figures and statistics that were necessary for the competent and capable selling of the mill.

In any event, this divestitute committee was formed and in the process of their selling effort they visited some 42 different companies in the United Kingdom and other parts of Europe and the United States and Canada. They were equipped with all the knowledge which was presented to all the companies, all the facts and figures including the unclaimed capital cost allowance which was really the selling point, the one advantage that we had in 2447

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 947 GH-2 MR. DOODY: trying to sell this monster. The unclaimed capital cost allowance and the depreciation which had built up on the machinery and equipment out in that mill amounted to one hundred and some million dollars. We had never been in a position to use it for two reasons: it was a Crown owned company, but more importantly than that it was a loser anyway and you do not claim capital cost allowance unless you have some profits on which to pay taxes. These depreciation allowances had accumulated.

National Revenue gave Labrador Linerboard Limited the same consideration that any corporate entity in Canada was entitled to and that is to claim that capital cost allowance in its divestiture or in its transfer - in the transfer of the assets to other hands. And that was the selling point, and that was the advantage which we were able to present to these 42 companies. We were fortunate enough to get a commitment from the Department of Regional Economic Expansion that they would assist. To what degree was uncertain up to just about the last point, but we did get at least a commitment that they would assist.

We had gone through that route before in an attempt to try to keep the mill open but in their wisdom and justice Ottawa had decided that the $30 million that we were looking for in the previous year would not be well spent on that mill, and I reluctantly now,in hindsight once again,have to agree with them that it would have been another $30 million down the drain and we would have had to face the same thing again this year. We had even approached them in terms of our Term 29 conversion to try to find some way of applying it to the losses of Linerboard Limited, we were so desperate to try to keep the mill open.

But anyway that is all behind us. 2448 .:

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 947 GH-3 MR. DOODY: The 42 companies were approached. computer readouts were taken• Three difference options were pursued: the conversion to a newsprint machine, a single machine newsprint mill; the operation of a sulphite pulp mill; or the operation as a linerboard plant. On all readouts with all possible computations and all possible or imaginable variations the linerboard operation always carne out on bottom. Of the 42 companies we did find one who showed an interest in operating it as a linerboard mill, but we never could get a reasonable or sensible proposal from them.

Over a period of time and a remarkably short time for such a complex operation, the serious companies boiled down to three: Bowaters, Abitibi­ Price, and Connie Bathurst. We had,quite frankly,hoped to be able to get Bowaters to take a more active interest in it. The compatibility of the pulp mill in Stephenville with the operation in Corner Brook and the operation in Liverpool, Nova Scotia, seemed to be a natural, tied in with the unclaimed capital cost allowance that was available at Stephenville.

However, unfortunately, our salesmanship was such as to be unable to convince Bowaters of the advantages to that company of that particular deal and we were left with 2449

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 948 DV1- 1 MR. W. DOODY: Connie Bathurst and Abitibi. Both companies were aiming at the same market, overseas European markets. Bowaters are more U.S. oriented and did not want to get involvedJ at this particular point,in the overseas market, and so we boil down to a bidding match between Abitibi and Connie Bathurst. Now at that time and even now to the best of my knowledge,Connie Bathurst and Abitibi are two s~parate corporate structures.

I know that Power Corporation., the parent corporation of Connie Bathurst have made several attempts to take over control of Abitib~ - Price T know that Mr. Desmarais's people have made several attempts to purchase control of the company through stock purchases, common stock purchases. Another one was made at around the same time as the Linerboard Mill sale on a little bit after that, but to the best of my knowledge that bid was also unsuccessful.

I do believe that through various agencies or .- swsidaries of Power Corporation that considerable quantities of Abitibi stock are held by the Power Corporation interests but to the best of my knowledge, and I stand to be corrected,contrcl of that company still vests in Abitibi and we dealt with Mr. Tom Belle and Mr. Tittemore on the Abitibi side of it and with the Connie Bathurst people on the other side of it; and there were two separate sets of negotiations and deals.

On the deal itsel~as it finally boiled down,I think it is probably one of the better ones, I have heard an hen. gentleman opposite tell us that the mill was worth $750 million.It was $800 million in the beginning but it depreciated overnight, it is $750 million today. Because the replacement cost of the mill today, the Linerboar~ mill in Stephenville would be $400 million} it might very well be that the price of a peanut butter factory on the top of the Himala7as might be $5 billion or $6 billion.

But I do not think it would be practical to put it there because nobody could find the peanuts to supply it, and the customers would not be ther~and the transportation problems would be there and so the fact that it would cost that much to put it 2450

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 948 DW - 2 MR. DOODY: there, really does not have all that much bearing on the resale value of the asset. It may very well be that it would cost $400 million to put a linerboard mill in Stephenville today if somebody were . foolis~ enough to put a liner­ board mill in Stepenville.I do not think that anybody would be.

I have been even given to understand that the original entrepreneur, or the original promoter was somewhat dubious about putting the mill in Stephenville.I can remember arguments being made at the time that the gentleman in question was kind of persuaded by the administration in·. power at the time that this project should be undertaken and should be done and it was done on that basis rather than on sound, business judgement. But, however, I realize that we are not allowed to talk about that particular administration - it is only the previous administration that we are allowed to discuss in this House.

On the terms of the deal itself, Your Honour, there is nothing very secret about it they were all made public at the time, they are outlined here very clearly in the attached

schedule or appendix. The amount of money involved ia a $43 million payment to the people of Newfoundland for the shares, the 5,000 common shares in the company. The company undertakes various warranties and obligations, They undertake to put into place a 150,000 ton per year single machine mill; they undertake to keep the pulp in place for at least five years in the hope that it can be utilizedj they under­ take,alsoJto make sure that the mill in Stephenville operates for at least the same number of years as the other mills 2451.

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 949 GH-1 MR. DOODY: owned by that company in Canada which is important - important protection for the people in Bay St. George and in the Province. The company undertakes in the conversion to have the work done insofar as is possible with local contractors 1 to do as much of its capital expenditure in the Province as it possibly can, and the conversion, the purchase of materials in the Province, taking out the machine and replacing the machine, going to use residents of the Province in the operation of the mill when it is finally converted.

We are going to give first preference to residents of the Bay St. George areain the mill and in the woodlands. There is another rather unusual clause in this - or I suppose the unusual thing about this agreement is that there is no clause granting the company an SSA exemption, a social security tax exemption, which was a standard clause in these old-type contracts which you see around here,old-type statutes.

I suppose it is unusual also inasmuch as the company has undertaken to pay full cornrner=ial hydro rates at the cost of the power to the company plus the normal mark-up of hydro, which in itself is another strange, weird and wonderful thing but one which I think bodes well. These are the sort of things that assures you that the operation in Stephenville will be a lasting one because the company ha~ made sure of its markets. It has made sure of its ability to operate. It is not leaning on government for small or large breaks or tax exemptions or handouts. It has come to an agreement.

The entire content of the agreement is in the act that you see before you and the company will be very much on its own. 2452

.•. May 1, 1979 Tape No. 949 GH-2 MR. DOODY: We have an undertaking from the company to put in a second machine within five years I think it is. In the event that they do not, then they are obligated to forfeit the million dollars that is now in an escrow account at one of the banks, the trust companies, in the Province. In order to facilitate the operation or installation of that second machine, the Province has undertaken to make available to the company a sufficient supply of wood to make that possible.

Our Forestry people have assured us, and I have no reason to doubt them, that that wood will certainly be available barring acts of God, forest fires or the spruce bud worm. I can say quite honestly, Mr. Speaker, that the situation in Stephenville today in terms of that mill compared to what it was just a few short months ago with its predecessor, that Labrador L inerboard Limited mill, is an entirely different set of circumstances. Right now we have in place a viable, long-term, solidly based woods operation.

It will not employ as many people as the mill that closed, but the people who will be employed will have security and a certain knowledge that their jobs are safe jobs. When that second machine goes in place and I have every reason to believe that it will, then the difference in the employment numbers will be relatively few. We know that the operation will be an efficient one. We have the word of the hon. member for Lapoile (Mr. Neary) who tells us that the company is going to make a billion dollars out there.

Well, if they can make that sort of profit from an operation like that, then I think the people in the Bay St. George area can feel very secure indeed about their jobs. Z453

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 949 GH - 3 MR. DOODY: Indeed I would like to be the union president who is negotiating a contract. With a profit picture like that down the roao, it souncis iii<e the cHISwer· too business agent's prayer . MR. FLIGHT: What was made on (inaudible). HR.

DOODY: The amount that was made on the unclaimed capital cost allowance was nowhere near a billion dollars and, as a matter of fact, if the hon. gentle men want to look at this particular company that was set up in Stephenville and into which p·art of the corporate structure this particular mill was placed, they will find to their amazement that the corporate taxes will indeed flow to the Province of Newfoundland and that the capital cost allowance will not affect 2454 .:

May 1, 1979 Tape 950 so - 1 MR. C,W, DOODY: our particular share of the corporate tax. However, that may be a bit too complex and so we will not burden the bon. member with that sort of detail. MR. R. SIMMONS: Do not be nasty today? MR. c.w. DOODY: I am trying not to, I have already been asked by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary) to be pleasant and polite like he has been and not to have any smear or innuendo or not to try to say things like collusion and rip-off and skulduggery and public charges against Mr. Kraft, Mr. Ingram and so on. I, also, would like very much to have Mr. Kraft or Mr.

Ingram have an opportunity, ·maybe they already have; an opportunity to take action to protect their reputations. I would like to find out if this $30 million rip-off is> indeed 1 anywhere close eo being true. If Mr. Sorenson,indeed,made fifty cents a ton on the sale of the product from the mill, We have no indication that this is so. We have searched through all the various records and looked at the contracts, looked at all the various documents, had our legal people look at them, had our auditors look at them and we could find nothing to that effect.

There was one particular deal 3 an Egret company somewhere down South that got $55 a ton on one shipment that came out of that mill. There was a $320 contract price entered into by the mill.to a company somewhere in I think it was in West Africa and in order to warrant the arrival of the goods at a certain agreed on freight rate this particular company got involved in a $55 a ton commission over and above the $320 contract price, That was between the sales agent and the ~urchaser.

It sounds like an awful lot of money for a ton of linerboard on a commission basis,even as an insurance against the non-delivery or against a freight rate thing. I do not understand it,I do not know anything about it other than the doc~ents that were tabled. But, that is the only evidence,or at least the only indication that I have seen to date during my work on the line~board operation that there is anY suspicion or indeed any suggestion of any wrongdoing.

If there is any wrongdoing I would be very, very happy to see it brought to the public's attention, If somebody has done something wrong I would be absolutely delighted to have it exposed.! think that the sort of . 2455

May 1, 1979 Tape No. 950 DW - 2 MR. W. DOODY: innuendo, the sort of shadow, the sort of cloud that we have heard discussed in this past day or two,although the only names that were mentioned were the names of 'Hr. Kraft and ~lr. Ingram, there were a: lot of other pe,ople involved in working for and on behalf of that mill 1 both in government and out 7 and I would like to see the thing cleared up if it is at all possible. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Mi.. W.

DOODY: As the hon. gentleman suggested,! would be the first one to leap to my feet and say, 'There was no wrongdoing went on that I \now of while I was involved in it and I can say that without fear of contradiction.' Mr.

Speaker, I do not really know what more I can say about this except to say that I was great deal happier on the stage at Stephenville the day that the announcement was made that Abitibi ~e~a going to buy that mill1 that the Province would get $43 million into its coffers from that mill rather than pay the fifty-some million out that we would have had to do that particular year if we kept it open. I saw the faces of the people down in that hall in Stephenville thee morning and it was a great deal more pleasant looking at that than it was the day that I went out there and told them that we were going to close it.

I look at that whole lincrboard situation and I can remember some pretty difficut moments, some pretty roug