ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 100A - 2:00 p.m ., TUESDAY, 5 JULY, 1983. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNA TS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGI S LATIVE ASSEMBL Y Of MANITOBA Tuesday, 5 July, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PR AYER by Mr. Speak er. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECI AL CO MMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker , I beg to present the Fifth Report of the Stand ing Commi ttee on Law Amendments. MR. CLERK, W. R em nant: Your Commit tee met on Tuesday, Jul y 5, 1983, and heard representations with respect to Bill (No. 89) -

An Act to amend The Landlord and Tenant Act as follows: Mr . R.G. Sme thur st, Man itoba Lan dlo rds Association Inc. Mr. S. Silverman, President of the Manitoba Landlords Association Inc. Mr . L. Rosen berg, Vice- Chair man of the Professional Property Managers Association Mr. A.A. Deleeuw, President of the Winn ipeg Real Estate Board Members of the Winnipeg Tenants Union: Barba ra Westcott (Su mmerland Tenants' Association) Larry Tallman Aile en Urqu hart (Wolseley Tenants' Union) Linda Chochinov Your Comm ittee has consid ered: Bill (No. 57) -

An Act to amend The Co-operatives Act Bill (No. 73) -

An Act to repeal The School Capital Financin g Aut hority Act; Loi abrogeant la loi connue sous le nom de School Capital Financing Authority Act Bill (No. 76) -

An Act to amend The Crown Lands Act And has agreed to report the same without amendment. All of which is respectfully subm itted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speak er, I move, seconded by the Member for Radisson, that the report of the commit tee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TA BLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the Annual Report for the year ending December 31, 19 82, for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... OR AL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan Riv er. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Speak er, I have a question I'd like to di rect to the Mi nister of Resources. He was here a moment ago, I think he's just out taking a phone call, so I'll maybe defer my question until he comes back. Federal frigate contract MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNST ON: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Min ister of Economic Development and Tourism. It was annou nced last week by the Federal Government that the St.

Johns Ship yards would be receiving the frigate cont ract from the Federal Government and it was also stated in that announc ement that there would be a lot of work go to electrical companies in Quebec. Can the Min ister inform the House if any of that work will be coming to Man itoba, of the $3 billion contracts that will be put forward by the Federal Government? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH : Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to have the opportunity to say how pleased we were that the cont ract did go to that particular ship yard because although our aerospace ind ustry would have stood to get offsets from either one of the major cont ractors, we stand to get more than double the offsets from this particular one. I think it's in the neighbourhood of $70 mi llion. We've had staff down there actively lobbying and have been working directly with the aerospace indus try to ensure that they are doing all within their power to be in the lineup for the offset contracts and it looks very positive at the moment. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, we're very pleased to hear that annou ncement, that statement, and $70 mill ion to the economy of the Province of Manitoba. I would ask ·the Min ister though with reference when we had the F18 contracts being let by the Federal 4091

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 Government, we had reason to believe there would be large contracts come to Manitoba contractors and some of them did not happen. They went to other areas of Canada. Can the Min ister assure us that there are companies in Winnip eg that have firm contra cts with St. Johns shipbuildin g and the electrical companies in Quebec that will guarantee us $70 million worth of work? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speak er, the way the system works we cannot receive guarantees.

What we do have dir ect from the Minis ter of S•ipply and Services, Jean Jacques Blais, and from Min ister Lumley whom we've been discussing the matter with and his deputies, is that the procedure is for the companies who wish to su bcontr act to make sur e th ey are in close communication with the major contractor and that they are making as competitive bids as they can. All that preparatory work is in place and it really remains for the major contractor to be determined.

The other firms do seem to be in - I can't say 10 0 percent position because that is in negotiation between them and the major contractor , but from every bit of information I have and knowledge of how the system works the picture is bright. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker , the Minis ter has outlin ed the procedures and mentions the Federal Mi nis ter has said that there will be work coming here. That $70 milli on sounds to me to be about 2 percent of that contract. Is the Min ister's department working with Manitoba manufacturers or electrical companies to try and gain more of that cont ract than 2 percent? HON.

M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker , the member opposite is right in the sense that we look for 4 percent to 8 percent of these contracts as an appropriate proportion, given our share of those ind ustries. We do not have that percent of probable su bcontracting, but we do feel we have a minimum of $70 mil lion in the aerospace area and we are working with the other firms to see that they - plus some emerging opportunities that are not yet finalized, and we will continue to do that work. F18 overha ul and maintenance MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speak er, is the Department of Economic Dev elopment still wo rking with th e aerospace indus try - this is another question, Sir, regarding the F18 cont ract - to have the overhaul and mainten ance of the F18 remain or be in Manitoba as the 10 4 is done at the present time? HON. M. SMITH: We've been working with the federal people on the whole range of issues relating to that sector, but I can't at this moment, give assurance on that particular item. I will unde rtake to report when there is something specific to report. MR. F. JOHNSTON: This is a final question, Mr. Speaker.

Standard Aero Engine was at one time, considering quoting on the overhaul and maintenance of the 404 GE engine that is in the F18. is the government still working with Standard Aero Engine, as we were, to help them quote on the overhaul and maint enance of the F18 engine? HON. M. SMITH: The short answer is yes, Mr. Speaker. I did ind icate that we work closely with aerospace indus try and identif y in what way we can help them to make di rect application, and in what way they feel we can be helpful in making a representation on another level and we are actively involved in that, as I said earl ier.

We had the Deputy Minis ter in Ottawa. last week •or several days, and we keep in regular communication with the indus try itself. Wayside parks - seasonal staffing MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan Ri ver. MR. D. GOUR LAY: I have a question to the Min ister of Natural Resources. On Friday, May 27th, I dir ected a question to the Min ister and asked him, I wonder if the Mini ster can confirm that his department is cutting back on seasonal staffing for the maintenance and servicing ol roadside campgrounds thr oughout the province. I make special reference to the one at Overflowing Riv er.

The Min ister took that question as notice, and on June 7t h, he replied to it and part of his answer I'll read w you: "I thought we had been requir ed to trim our budg et very e1fectively , but I must admit that I'm advised that there was, in fact, a cutback in services at Overflowing River Provincial Recreation Park. I confirm that the honourable member was right in respect to that." Then he goes on further to say, "There are alternative camping facilities along High way No. 10 at Birch Riv er." In addition he says, Mr.

Speaker, "There are waysides at Mafeking where overnight camping capability for travellers is avai lable.'' I wonder if the Min ister can confirm, now, that the wayside park at Mafeking is closed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. A. M.:4.CKLING: No, I cannot, Mr. Speak er. MR. D. GOUR LAY: Well, I wonder if the Mi nister could check that out and see if that is, in fact, the case.

Also, I wonder if the Min ister could take as notice and confirm that the Committee of the UVD of Mafeking offered to maintain this wayside park with assistance from the Royal Canadian Legion, and the park staff at Swan River have refused that offer. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speak er, I'll be happy to take the particulars of the question as notice.

By way of general comment, as I ind icated I think during the course of my Estimates, and as I ind icated in response to the earlier question, we do have a history of the use waysides, particularly those where we have had ( amping, and where it is just not economic to maintain staff for camping - (In terjection) - Well, Mr. Speaker, the honourable members want answers, but they are not prepared to lis ten while we try to provide answers. From a point of view of economics, it is just not reasonable to maintain staff at these facilities where the demand just does not ind icate it is warranted.

Therefore, there has been a tightening of spending to reflect sound management in respect to those areas. 4092

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 MR. D. GOURL AY: Well, Mr. Speaker , the community obviously ha s recogniz ed that fact and they appreciate that the government is tight for money, but they have gone out and sought assistance from the Legion to provide them funding, and they are prepared to operate this park.

The question I would dir ect to the Min ister, and ask him if he can confirm that the group from Mafeking conta cted his staff to see if they would cut the tall grass that is currently there, and this past weekend there were a numb er of tourists using that facilit y, if he can confirm that the committee from the Uninc orpora ted Villa ge District of Mafeking contacted his staff and they said, no, we don't want that park maintained; and yesterday staff from the Parks Branch arrived and removed the picnic tables, the toilets, and they smashed with a hammer the permanent concrete barbecues that were there . MR.

SPEAKER: Question? MR. D. GOU RLAY: ... so that they could no longer be used. I would appreciate if the Mini ster could confirm those statements that I brought to the House today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speak er, I'll be happy to take the particulars of the question as notice and I will look into them. I share the concerns of anyone if there has been any removal or destruction. - (I nterjection) - Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Member for Pembina doesn't have the good grace or cou rtesy to allow any other member of this House to speak without his pronouncing inanit ies from his chair. Mr. Speaker, I was addressing my remarks to those members of the official opposition who have some courte sy, including the Honourable Member for Swan Riv er, whose questions are entitled to answers that he can hear. I'v e indi cated that I am concerned if there has been destruction of facilities that were there and certai nly that is in accordance with my request to my department.

I will look into those matters and I will provide specifics to the questions the Honourable Member for Swan River has raised. MR. D. GOURLAY: Whil e the Mi nis ter of Natural Resources is taking those questions as notice, I wonder if he would also check to see how many other roadside campgrounds are being closed at this time. I would di rect a further question to the Minis ter of Tourism and ask her if she is in agreement with the closing down of th ese campgr ound fac il itie s in the Swan River constituency and, indeed, perhaps other constituencies of Northern Manitoba. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Economic Development. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speak er, I think, as the member opposite kno ws, it is a measure for the Minis ter to look into, but I will be conferring with my colleague because of course we're concerned about the facilities available to tourists as they move through that part of the countr y. French schoo l for lle des Chenes MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the absence of the Minis ter of Education, I direct my question to the Premi er.

In view of the fact that tenders closed about 10 days ago for the proposed Franais School at lie des Chenes and the low tender was $2. 1 mil lion as opposed to the $1. 4 milli on authoriz ed by the Public Schools Finance Board, will the government be authorizing additiona l expenditur es - almost 50 percent - to see that project go through to completion? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minis ter. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speak er, I'll take that question as notice. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speak er, following upon that, I wonder if I could ask the Prem ier, in view of the fact that we' re alre ady experie ncing a record de ficit projected at $578 mill ion, does the government still consider this facility a priority? HON. H. PAWLEY : Mr . Speaker , the Min is ter of Education has dealt with that question previous ly. It was a matter that was concurred in and so far as this government is concerned it's a matter that is concurr ed in so far as the school division is concerned at Seine Riv er. I will take the question pertai ning to the cost estima tes and respond to the House. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, I'm sure that the Mini ster of Education did deal with it but we're now talking about a facility that's 50 percent more costly than was originally planned. Is it a priority at any cost, is what I'm asking, because, Mr. Speak er, it appears as though if you add in the two parcels of land that had to be purcha sed at $40,000 and $45,000, over $200,000 for architects' fees, this project is now $2.5 million to service 16 5 students in its early stages, and up to 230 students projected. Can the Premier still justif y this expenditure at that level? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speak er, agai n, I ind icated that the question would be taken as notice. Manitoba Schoo l for Retardates MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question to the Minis ter of Community Services and Corrections. Mr . Sp eaker , ha s the Mi ni ster and gov ernment confirmed whether the North Gr ove wing of the Manitoba School for Retardates at Portage la Prairie will be closed due to improper fire safety standards? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Community Services. HON. L. EVANS: As we have ind icated previously , Mr.

Speaker , that particular building does require a 4093

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 considerable amount of money for upgrading for fire safety standards and the engineers tell us the amount of money required is not justified, in terms of the condition of the building. So it's far better to look for other options for residential accommodation for tho se people rather than to spend money on an inadequate structure. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Speaker, the next question to the same Mi nister . Ho w do es the Mi nister plan to accommodate the 220 residents who are currently housed in this wing? HON. l. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member is asking me a policy question which still has to be determined. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Speaker , my final question to the same Min ister , how does the Minister plan to deal with the numb ers of empl oyees who will be affected with the chang e? HON. L. EVANS: As I indicated, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is asking me a matter of policy. When a policy is finally arrived at, it will be annou nced in due course, but rega rdless, th erefore, his last question is really hypothetical. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I' ve a question for the Minister of Commu nity Services and Corrections.

There ha s been for sometime a program in effect, Bail Recognizance Program, whereby accused persons have been remanded to the custody of commu nity organizations, and the department has paid a per diem of $16 to $23 per diem to th ese commu nity organizations and, as of Jun e 30th, the organizations have been advised that the program has been cancelled. Could the Minister confirm that the only recourse will be that these persons will be remanded in custody at a cost four to five times the $16 to $23 per diem that has been paid to the commu nity organizations? HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I didn't hear a part of the original portion of the question. I would appreciate if the honourable member would give me the name of the organization he was referring to? MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, there have been a nu mber of commu nity organizations involved, which include the Native Clan or Grosvenor Pla ce, United Church Ha lfway House and X-Kala y. They've all received these prisoners from the court under this remand program, and they have been advised, as of Jun e 30th, that effective July 1s t the per diem payment of $16 to $23 will be cancelled.

The only alterr .ative is that these persons will be remanded into custody at a cost of four to five times higher than that. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to take that question as notice and get back to the honourable mem ber. Workers Compensation Board - personnel changes MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have another question for the Mi nister responsible for the Workers Compen sation Board. Al most one month ago he unde rtook in this House to file in the House a list of cha nges of staff at the Workers Compens ation Board. Is he now prepared to table that document with that information in the Hous e? ...

R. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: As I indi cated to the Member for St. Norbert at that time it was a detail list which he was requesting and I would have the list prepared. The list is not prepared at this time in the type of depth which I would like to be able to forward to him, but I can address senior level management, by way of the question period, if he would be interested in that information at this time? MR. G. MERCIER : Mr.

Speaker, it's now been, as I'v e indicated, almost one month since that list of changes has been required, and I think we're entitled to have that information supplied to us within that time period. I would ask him to un dertake to file that within the next few days because the information should be available. And does it include changes, one effective at the end of June, with respect to a doctor who has left the Workers Compens ation Board, and another one who is going to leave this fall? HON. J.

COWAN: There are people coming on stream and leaving the Workers Compens ation Board, or in fact any organiza tion, on a regular basis and they are doing so by way of their own choice, or by way of early retirement if they choose, or by way of normal retirement if they choose that, and that is, indeed, happening I can confirm that. I will present to the Member for St. Norbert the detailed list which he has requested as soon as it is available to me; it is not yet available to me at this time in the detail which, I believe, is necessary to address his question properly.

If he's asking if people are being added and deleted by way of personnel changes in regard to Workers Compensation meanwhile, yes, that is happening. Bi ll 47 - distribution MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Mu nicipal Affairs. With the introduction of Bill 47, the Mun icipal Council Conflict of In terest Act, I asked the Minister at that time if copies of the bill had been forwarded to mu nicipal reeves and c' uncillors thr oughout the province and he assured me they had.

Some weeks later, in his absence, I directed a question to the Attorney-General who took it as notice and said if it hadn't been done it would be looked after. I now ask the Minister if he can confirm the copies of act have gone to all mu nicipal councillors and reeves and mayors of the villa ges and mu nicipalities throughout Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mu nicipal Affairs. 4094

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 HON. A. ADAM: The answer is, yes, Mr. Speaker , to my knowledge all mun icipalities have received a copy of Bill 47, in addition to Bill 18 which had been forwarded prior to that. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, a supp lementary to the same Min ister, Mr. Speaker. I gathered that copies were going to be forwarded to all members of the town councils, and the Mini ster is confirming now tha t a copy has been forwarded to each mun icipality council? HON. A. ADAM: Yes, I belie ve that is correct, that a copy would be mailed out to council, and not to each individual member .

I would expect they would be sent to each council, and avai lable to each council as required. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, Mr. Speaker , in view of the impor tance of the subject matter of this particular bill I think it's important that each member of council get a copy of the bill so that they can un derstand it. I realize that mu nicipal elections will be coming up this fall, and is it the Mi nis ter's intention to keep them in the dark so that they don't realize what they'll be getting into if they run for office?

I can assure the Mini ster there are members that won't be runnin g for office when they find that they have to disclose their assets under this bill, that's coming to light already . Would the Min ister un dertake to mail copies to all rur al munici pal councillors and councillors of the towns and villa ges throughout Manitoba? HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speaker, I've just completed seven hearings, seven dis trict meetings put on by the Union of Manitoba Muni cipalities at which time there was probably 1, 000 to 1, 500 people, councillors, that were at those meetings, and an explanation was given to them at that time on the general principles of the bill, and the bill had already been forwarded to the councils. I want to say that I deliberately had comments on Bill 47 in my remarks in order to get a feedback from them.

It was a deliberate attempt on my part to get some communic ation going with the councillors, and I want to say that I'm very satisfied that we have a substantial support of Bill 47. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. A. ADAM: Members opposite have not read the feelings out there of their people - they laugh, Mr. Speaker; they can laugh because that's what they do best, that's all they can do is laugh. They're help less, all they can do is laugh and the Leader of the Opposition is the best at it. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a final suppl ementary to the Min ister.

I know the Min ister attended all of the regional meetings and stayed for an hour or two hours, but those of us who live out with the councillors and see them on a more regular basis maybe have a little better feel on some of the reaction to his bill that he has. Could the Min ister un dertake to provide me with enough copies of Bill 47, in order that I may mail them out to all of the councillors in the Province of Manitoba? HON. A. ADAM: If the member wants to send out bills on his own he can do so at his own expense. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. A. ADAM: Mr.

Speak er, I have met with the advisory committee and we discussed the conflict of in terest bill. I'v e met at their district meetings; we have deli berately attempted to have questions raised at these meetings. I am surprised, Mr. Speaker, that there hasn't been more reaction against this bill. They haven't read the bill ... A MEMBER: Support the bill? We haven't seen the bill. HON. A. ADAM: .. . and members opposite haven't got a feeling of the councils out there. They all want to ha ve the supp ort of the Union of Man itoba Muni cipalities, as well as the Manitoba Association of Mun icipaliti es.

Both associations support the principle of this bill. They are misreading the public out there, they are. Trans lation of Statutes MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to di rect a question to the Mini ster of Cultural Affairs and ask him if he could ind icate to the Assembly what it costs to translate one page of a typical statute? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Cultur al Affairs. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker , I'll take that question as notice. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speak er, I'd like to also ask the Minis ter whether he could confirm that to da te, approxi mately $2 mill ion has been spent on the translation of statutes into French? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speak er, no, I cannot confirm that $2 million has been spent to date on the translation of statutes into French. The amount is considerably less than that . . . A MEMBER: Did you give him notice of that Russ? MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speak er, I'd also like to ask the Min ister whether he could confirm that approximately 25 copies of Manitoba statutes in the French language have been sold to date, and that if the original figure of $2 mill ion is correct, that means that the average cost per statute is $80,000 for one document of this size. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I guess the member was not present in the House when that question was previously answered with respect to the question that was originally asked by the Member for St. Norbert. It certainly is 4095

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 true that I did report to the House just over a month ago that there were, to that point in time, approximately 25 copies of statutes that were purcha sed in French. It should be noted however that very few of the popular statutes of the Province of Manitoba are translated into the French language, so that would be in part the reason for the small amount of copies that have been pur chased. As I ind icated to the previous question that was asked, the cost of translation is not $2 mill ion, it's considerably less, so the calculation that was done by the member is incorrect.

Bran don Library - fun ding MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question, I guess it's for the Min ister of Cultur al Affairs who is responsible for the Libr ary Arts Council funding and the establishment of the newly proposed li brary in Brandon.

Can the Min ister of Cultur al Affairs confirm that the Min ister of Commun ity Services and Member for Brandon East blocked the wishes of the Brandon Kinsmen Club from putting on the Board of Lib rary Arts Council, a member of the Kinsmen Club or a designate of theirs to sit on that Board and that, in fact, has caused the withdr awal of $15 0,000 of volunt eer funds that were to be put into that facility? A MEMBER: Un believable. There's one under every stone, isn't ther e? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Cultur al Affairs. Order please. A MEMBER: There's one under every stone, isn't there? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, they're speaking of stones and rocks. I know the kind of thin gs that crawl under rocks, and it seems to me that there are some across the way. Mr. Speaker, I think the member should und erstand and should appreciate that there is a private bill presently before the House and I belie ve i's been referred to the Mu nicipal Affairs Comm ittee of the Hous e, and I think will be dealt with in due course at the time that commit tee next meets. They will deal with that bill and any amendments that may be made to that bill. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the lack of an swer, one can only take for granted that that is in fact the case, that the Mini ster of Community Services and Member for Brandon East did block the appointment of a Ki nsmen to the Library Arts Council, and that did in fact take place. Will the Mini ster of Cultural Affairs repla ce the $1 50,000 that has been withd rawn - that volu nteer fund that wouldn't have had to come from the taxpayers - will he now put the $1 50,000 into that facility? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Speaker, again I believe the member has some difficulty in hearing or I would have thought would have un derstood the procedures of this Assembly, that there is a private bill dealing with that su bject matter presently before the Mu nicipal Affairs Commit tee of this House. I'm sure that committee will be meeting shortly and dealing with that.

With respect to the allegation made by the mem ber, I would point out that this government did grant as a special grant to the City of Brandon last year $800,000 ;o assist them with the purcha se and renovation of the combined Arts Council Libr ary complex in the City of Brandon. I'm certainly pleased that we have been able to assist in that way.

I regret that the Kinsmen Club has apparently taken the stand they have as reported by the papers with respect to their funding, because I belie ve that the suggestion that is being made is that the bill that is going to be dealt with be amended to provide for the appointment of citizen representatives by the Council of the City of Brandon, so that the City Council of Brandon could appoint a representative of the Kinsmen if the city council decided that it was worthwhile to do so.

The suggestion by the Kinsmen, in fact, I take offence to being held up for ransom, so to speak, by the Kinsmen with respect to appointment to a board of dir ectors, because that has not been the practice with respect to boards of huraries, boards of arts councils in this province, even though many boards, as I'm sure members across the way can appreciate, have been built, have been operated with considerable funds from the private sector, from community organizations. Not once has a community organization ever said that we will only give funds if you give us a pla ce on the board.

That's never been done before, Mr. Speaker . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker , I would ask the First Min ister of this province if he would ask the Member for Brandon East, the Min ister of Communit y Services, to stop meddling around in volu nteer funds to help the betterment of community projects in Manitoba. The Kinsmen Club, Mr. Speaker , are all volunteer people who ha ve done many worthy pr ojects are being interru pted and inter fered with by an incompetent government.

Will the Fi rst Min ister ask the Member for Brandon East not to get in volved where people are putting their good efforts forward to help the betterment of Manitoba communiti es? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , having heard the speech by the Member for Arthur rather than a question, all I need do by way of response is to point out to the Honourable Member for Arthur that the Honourable Member for Brandon East, the Mini ster respon sible for Communit y Services, is not meddling.

It's a matter for th city council to determ ine, and the city council can v_,ry well determ ine in their wisdom, as they may very ' 1ell do, that a Kinsmen ought to be appointed to the board, but it will be a decision that would be made at the Brandon City Council level. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Community Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker , I take offence and I totally object to the in ference and the statement of the 4096

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 Member for Arthur that I'm blocking any amount of money to be dona ted by the Kinsmen Club. Obviously he does not und erstand the process; he didn't even know we had a bill before the House, in this respect, and I totally reject that and I would ask him to even withdraw that statement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister did not have a point of privilege. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mou ntain. layoffs MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Mini ster .

Yeste rda y, my collea gue from La Verend rye brought to the attention of the House the fact that 18 people who had been promised 26 weeks of works in the Forestry Branch in south eastern Manitoba were given notices of layoff after only seven weeks of work. It is apparent today that appli cation had been made to the Jobs Fund for mone y, in order that those people could continue to be empl oyed according to the contracts which the government had signed with them. Can the First Minister advise the House what criteria that he used, as Chairman of the Jobs Fund, to reject that application for funds? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Mini ster. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speak er, there were, indeed, many app lications that had been made to the Jobs Fund and many appli cation have been accepted; and, at the same time, many appli cations to the Jobs Fund were refused. There certainly was not adequa te monies in order to deal with every single application that was submitted to the Jobs Fund. Mr . Speaker , I dealt with the various criteria that are utilized in determining projects in regard to the Jobs Fund.

First and foremost, of course, is a consideration pertaining to the labour intensity of the parti cular task that is at hand, that is the content of the appli cation to the Jobs Fund; second ly, a question pertaining to lasting asset, whether or not the asset will be of a lasting nature or not; and third ly, Mr. Speaker , the importance of levering sums of monies, insofar as other levels of government, whether it be of the mu nicipal, or the federal, or of the bus iness commu nity or, in fact, of labour groups; and fourthly, Mr.

Speaker, is a question of weighing the various projects, determining whether or not any particu lar project, as weighed against another partic ular project, is more valuable than one or the other. The project in question was a good proposal that was made by the department, but Mr. Speaker, as I have already ind icated last week, $137- some-million of projects have already been annou nced pertaining to the Jobs Fund; a nu mber of other projects have yet to be announced, arising from the Jobs Fund.

In addition, some $80-some-million were levered from mu nicipal, from federal, and from business levels of govern ment. So the answer to the honourable member is those various criteria were utilized insofar as each and every appli cation that was considered by the Jobs Fund. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker , it seems that the work these people were doing qualif ies under a numb er of the items which the First Min ister has put forward.

Certainly labour-i ntensive effort in the reforestation area has, in fact, been put forward by the government as an example of the type of project that they would fund under the Jobs Fund. Does the First Min ister consider it important that the government entered into contracts with these 18 people to supply 26 weeks of work? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, a question was taken yesterday in respect to this, one, by notice by the Mi nister, and I un derstand the Minister will be in a position to respond tomorrow pertaining to the question. I think we ought not to, on the basis of the information that I have, Mr.

Speak er, leave an impr ession in the Cham ber, or in the minds of Manitobans, that any contract was entered into insofar as the providing of jobs to any given individuals pertaining to a 26-week contract. If a cont ract was entered into that was legal, as suggested by the Honourable Member for Turtle Moun tain, I would be the first, Mr. Speaker, to say that contr act ought to be honoured, but my information that I have does not suggest that there was a legal, binding contract that was entered into, insofar as the employees were concerned. Mr.

Speak er, we are examining this matter, the Minis ter is examining this matter, and we are anxious to do what is right, given all the circums tances, but weighing - and I must empha size this, Mr. Speaker , - the fact that there are appli cations pertaining to various job creation projects of every kind, every nature, of every region, of every su bstance, and we must ensure that the decisions that are made are fair, considering the nature of the application. We will be doing that, Mr.

Speaker, and we'll be doing that in a manner that reflects reasonable and considered opinion on the part of the Jobs Fund Board which is respons ible, in turn, to the Treasury Board. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the government has made much of their job creation effort. These 18 people were led to believe that they would have continuing emplo yment for at least 26 weeks of work. Mr. Speaker, my question to the First Minister is, will he consider taking funds from the Jobs Fund, in order that these people may be able to continue to be emplo yed as they were told by the government that they would be employed?

Will he take some funds from his $200 million Jobs Fund, carry out the commitment that was made to these people, restore a little faith that these people have lost now, in government, and create a few jobs, rather than simply moving money from on e poc ket to an other an d leavi ng peo ple unemplo yed? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , a determination will be made in regard to the particu lar issue that's involved, and I must, again, empha size that it is important insofar as any decision that is arrived at, that decision be fair to other projects that have been refused, projects that were refused . . .

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. H. PAWLEY: ... Mr. Speaker, I'm attempting to provide an ans wer to the question that's provided 4097

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 and I hope I'm given that kind of opportuni ty to do so. That it's important, as I indi cated before, in weig hing whether or not this particular project, involving some 18 empl oyees, is indeed continued; that it be continued on the basis of its fairness, on the basis of its rational ity, and not on the basis that it may very well be that representation was made that ought not to have been made in the first instance. A MEMBER: You don't know what fairness is. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker , surely there is fairness to be had by restoring the jobs to these 18 people who were promised employment with the government. My question to the First Minister is, as Chairman of the Jobs Fund, as First Minister of the Province, can he not simply provide some leadership here, take the bull by the horns and say, yes, there was an injustice done to these 18 people and I, as First Minister of this Province, am going to restore it. Will the First Minister simply take that action? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , as I have al ready indi cated some thr ee or four times, the matter is under review.

I want to say, insofar as leadership is concerned, it was this New Democratic Party Government that proceeded with the Jo bs Fund; it was th is New Democratic Party Government that has proceeded with annou ncements . . . I know honourable Conservative members across the way, who have sometimes a paralysis of thinking, Mr. Speaker, don't like to hear about leadership in this province and about other parts of this countr y. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, it was this New Democratic Party Government that created a $200 million Jobs Fund; it was this New Democratic Party Government that's already announc ed some $131 million by way of Jobs Fund in the Province of Manitoba, including a numb er of projects that were dealt with at great length in this Chamb er, Mr. Speaker; projects that pertained to Northern Manitoba, that pertained to sewer and waterworks in various parts of southern Manitoba, that pertained to reforestation projects in The Pas area, that pertained, Mr. Speaker , to important efforts to revitalize the Core Area of the City of Winnipeg.

It was this government, by way of its Jobs Fund Program, that was responsible for levering some $81 million insofar as other levels of government, from business and other areas of the economy. Mr. Speaker , this New Democratic Party Government, by way of example, need no t accept any lecturing from the Conservative group that for four years were responsible for thousands of young Manitobans leaving this province to obtain jobs elsewhere, mainly in B.C. and Alberta and Saskatchewan, because this Conse rvative group across the way had no ideas, they had no imagination, they had no guts. Mr.

Speaker, I will acknowledge to you that at times I, indeed, do feel somewhat emotional when I hear lecturing from honourable members, when they had an opportunity stood paralyzed, insofar as providing leadership to the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for La Verend rye on a point of order. MR. R. BANMAN: On a point of order. Representing my constituents who this First Minister will not reinstate in jobs, Mr.

Speaker, it's my point of order that I really don't have to sit here and listen to this kind or diatribe 7rom the First Minister when he's laying people off in my constituency and trying to gloss it over with a bunch of flimflam. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member did not have a point of order. The Honourable Member for Lakeside on a point of order. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Natural Resources. MR. SPEAKER: Orde r please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. MR. H. ENNS: I'll change that request from a question to a matter of privilege then, Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: Would the honourable member state his point of privilege? MR. H. ENNS: Would the Speaker now consider giving me a little bit of time, having in mind all the time the First Minister took in answering that straightforward question? MR. SPEAKER: I believe the honourable member knows he did not have a point of privilege. ORDERS OF THE DAY COMM ITTEE MEET ING MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr.

Speaker, may I announc e a meeting of the Standing Com mittee on Law Amendments for Thur sday of this week July 7 at 10 :00 a.m. and, if necessary, to continue in the evening at 8:00 p.m. If the committee should find it necessary to meet at 8:00 p.m. on Thur sday evening there would no regular sitting of the House. Mr. Speaker, would you please call the . . . Yes, let it be, by leave, I certain ly acknowledge tha t I' ve consulted with the Opposition House Leader who I find, in most inst an ces, unli ke some others, to be a gentleman in these things. � .

Speaker, would you please call the adjourned deuates on Bills 84, 92, 47, 48, 69, 72, 78 and 90. ADJOURNED DEB AT ES ON SECOND READING BILL NO. 84 - THE RESIDENT IAL RENT REGUL ATIO N ACT MR. SPEAKER: On the pro posed motion of the Honourable Minister of Housing, Bill No. 84. 4098

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 The Honou rable Mem ber for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speake r, having reviewed the contents of the bill, and consulting various sources, we are prepared to pass it along to commi ttee. It is primarily housekeeping and minor in nature and we are prepared to pass it along to committee. QUESTION put, MOTION carrie d. Bill NO. 92 - THE CIT Y Of WI NNIPEG ACT MR. SPEAKER: On the prop osed motion of the Honourable Minis ter of Cultural Affairs, Bill No. 92 standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In reviewing the contents of the amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act, and having had an opportuni ty to review some notes from my own service on city council, and having spent a couple of terms on Winnipeg City Council, I kno w that many of the amendments that have been brought forward by the Minister are ones that have been requested by the city and ones that, I think, there is fairly general agreement on by members of city council. I'm sorry, Mr. Speak er, the Minister was calling something across to me and I couldn't make it out.

In any case, I know that a numb er of the amendments are ones that have been put forward by the city in the past, and they are therefore in agreement with many of the things that the Mi nister is attem pting to do. For instance, the tightening up of various zoning matters and inspection processes, streamlining of procedures with respect to street closure, and so on, are relatively straightf orward and, I believe, that they are matters that will allow the city to be able to do its job more effectively and more efficiently , in terms of following through on these various requirements.

As well, the reduced advertising requirements on zoning matters, again, I think, will be welcomed and I know it was a recommendation put forward by city council to the Min ister.

I'm sure that city council will appreciate the opportuni ty that they have for pension and insurance schemes and benefit plans for Mem bers of City Council and, of course, it will be of interest to all taxpayers as to what ultimately transp ires as a result of the opportuni ty for additional benefits, whether this becomes an increased burden on the taxpayers, or how it works out, will obviously be a decision of city council and one that they will have to face the ratepayers about after they bring in their plans. Mr.

Speake r, the matter of the oppor tun i ty for referenda to be held by city council is a different one. I wonder if this government believes in the process of surveying public opinion through a referen dum why it doesn't do that with respect to, for instance, the resolution that is currently before the House on the bilingualism alternative for the Province of Manitoba? The extension of French language services is a matter that is evoking a great deal of public concern.

I'm aware that over 10 0 rural mu nicipalities have brought forward resolutions to the attention of the Mini ster of Mu nicipal Affairs and I wonder why the government doesn't practice what it preaches, and on such a major matter, not hold a referen dum province-wide, for instance, to survey opinion.

They believe that it's an effective vehicle obvious ly; the y're giving the opportuni ty both to mu nicipalities and, through this act, to the City of Winnipeg to do this sort of thing and yet they're not giving that kind of broad opportunity for people to cast a vote and to express an opinion on a very, very major item such as this.

I know that it's their intention to facilitate referenda on things that are outside the normal purview and responsibility of mu nicipal governments, by bringing in this sort of thing and having referenda on matters such as, I suppose, nuclear disarmament and other matters, but it would seem to me that if they believe that such a vehicle, such a tool is an effective way of gauging publ ic opinion and can be utili zed for the purpose of development of future public policy, that they ought to apply that principle thems elves when they're facing such a major question, as I say, as they are today in the province.

However, be that as it may, there are other matters that are in the act that I think ought to evoke certain concern. The major portion of the act is devoted to the potential for poli ticization of the civic service by opening up the opportunity or facilitating the opportunity for civic servants to become politically involved and to run and so on, I think that this government is doing what it is doing in the provincial Civil Service.

They are essentially encouraging and, in fact, poli ticizing the Civil Service of the province and wanting to extend that now to get political activism going in the civic service of the City of Winnipeg; and I que stion that and I know tha t's something that has been questioned by members of city council and the admi nistration of the City of Winnipeg because civic services, even more so than provincial services, are much closer to the publ ic.

Their delivery system is such, when you're dealing with things such as refuse col lection and street maintenance and all of that sort of thing, that there is a close relationship between all of the elected people on city council and staff people at virtually all levels. It goes right down to the delivery of service of the very essential but, sometimes considered menial services that are deli vered by the City of Winnipeg; and that relationship, if there were a kind of a poli tical overtone or undertone to it, I think, could be dam aged .

And I think that it may lead to situations in which people do not respond to the legitimate requests of councillors, for political purposes, to make them look bad or to put them in a situation where they dama ge their chances of re-election by not attending to their legitimate reque sts on behalf of their taxpayers and voters.

I don't like to see that creep into this kind of thing and I think that it has a much greater opportunity because of the nature of services that are provided and the nature of the relationship between a councillo r and the staff people at City Hall that I think is different than occurs, say, at the provincial or the federal level of Civil Service. So I say that is an area that ought to evoke, I think, a fair degree of consideration and public response, because I'm not sure that it's in the interests of the tax-paying public to have that kind of relationship made, politically related in any way. 4099

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 In any case, there are other matters that I un derstand the city council has been after the Mi nis ter to put into the act that have not been put into the act and I wonder why and I hope that the Min ister is not attempting to control the city's legitimate desires to proceed more efficiently in some of its urban renewal. For ins tance, I know that the city has been pushing for an amendment to allow them to demolish boarded­ up houses.

I know that they're in a situation today where millions of dollars, from all th ree levels of government, are being spent in upgrading and renewing blighted, urban areas and yet there is a situation that occurs where a house that's been placarded, boarded up, vacant for years, is not able to be demolished and cleaned up, so that the mil lions that are being spent in neighbourhood improvement programs and other things are, in essence, downgraded and wasted because of the fact that the city cannot proceed to demolish these things in any reasonable period of time.

I think that's an area that the Minis ter should have looked at and I'm surpris ed that he has declined to consider that, I think, reasonable request on the part of the city. The amendments that are brought forward with respect to zoning matters and the additional zone, I think, make sense and I think are probably lauded by both the city government and as well the people from the municipal governments surrounding the City of Winn ipeg who deal with the zoning process through the City of Winnip eg and its Environment Comm ittee.

I'm sure that all will be appreciative of that amendment and I'm sure, as well, that the city's only concern in it, Mr. Speak er, is that it has an opportunity for input and in format ion with respect to matters that are happening in the additional zone and an opportunity to make their presentations and their views known when such things are being effected, as major rezonings and major land use considerations in the additional zone which, of course, affects Winnipeg's interests.

Having said all that, I say that I'll be in terested to hear a little bit more from those who will come to commit tee to make presenta tions; I'm sure that members of the city government thems elves will have some comments on some parts of it tha t ar en't necessarily in their in terests or perceived to be in their interests. Mr. Speaker , those are my remarks on the matter, and as I say, we look forward to hearing the presentations of the City Government on it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Gar ry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speak er, I move, seconded by the Honou rable Member for Turtle Moun tain, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. Bill NO. 47 - TH E MUNI C IPAL COU NC IL CONF LI CT OF INTE REST ACT MR. SPEAKER: On the prop osed motion of the Honour able Mi n is ter of Muni cipal Affairs, the Hon ourable Memb er for Mo rris has 26 minut es remai ning. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speak er, I only have a few additional comments to put on the record along with those that I gave last night.

I'd like to begin though to reiterate some of the comments I made at that time, specifically as related to firstly the provision requiring all muni cipal councillors, and indeed under Bill 18 , those of us who are sitting :n the House, the requir ement of all those people who seek those public offices, to have to on behalf ol their spouses declare the total asset list within the household. I have a very strong feeling, Mr.

Speaker, that a very small percentage of rural muni cipal councillors really today, have a total und erstanding of what is expected of them as they seek offices probably this fall and for years to come. I genuinely belie ve that very few of them have read the proposed bill, and of course we found out by way of question period today that - (Int erjection) - they were not given specifically their own personal copies unle ss their local council saw fit to reproduce them and give them to them di rectly.

Of course, we question how many of them have seen Bill 47 in its entir ety. - (lnt erjection)- Well, it's on that basis, Mr. Speaker, that I really believe it's unfair for :'le Minis ter of Mu nicipal Affairs to stand in this House and say that in his view he has strong support for this type of legislation from the rural mun icipalities. I belie ve that the first time that many of them had a chance to even hear about it, is as he says when he broached the su bject in his remarks to various people in attendance during the meetings. Mr.

Speaker, I hope I was able to make the point in some respect last night that in my view the only law that can make people honest is an unwritten one, and that's the one of personal integrit y. That's the only law that can allow people to be honest in all positions of life. I don't think any type of legislation that is passed in this house is going to impose on people the necessity of hone sty. As I was completing my address last night, Mr. Speaker, my main concern was as to what I see happening in the rural areas.

I look at school board elections throughout rural Manitoba, and I see where so very many of the ward system under school board elections are filled by acclamat ion. In some cases existing tru stees who wanted to step down are pul led back because there's no representation from an area. I think it's happening to some degree also in municipal elections. I'm rea lly wondering ho w this type of legislation is going to help that process at all. Mr.

Speak er, we have before us another bill - I forget the num ber, I believe it's 14 - where we have attempts by the government by way of doing away with vouching that's going to cause everybody to vote. They believe th<1t there are some restrictions in pla ce today that are pr .venting the voting percentages from rising above 1:,s or 70 percent. They belie ve with a few changes that .1 greater percentage of Manitobans will come out to vote at all elections.

Yet, on doing that on one hand they're also, by way of this legislation, as you relate it to the realities of rural government, I believe there are going to be fewer people to vote for, so there may be more voters, but who will there be to vote for? I don't believe there'll be the number of candida tes there. I sinc erely belie ve they haven't thought this through, or has it been thought thr ough? 4100

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 I see something that's happening in rural areas that's disturbing me. I don't know if it's because in a sense local autonomy and local authority is being pulled away, but I see first of all, where people are backing away from the responsibil ity of acting as school trus tees. I have a strong feeling and I see it and there are many mun icipalities where there are not contested elections for trus tees. I'm wondering where it's going to end. How far is this government going to push along this process of putting on more and more power to first of all strip away powers from rural Manitoba?

A MEMBER: Pull the bill. MR. C. MANNESS: I tell you, Sir, I'm terribly concerned. I'm almost wondering ii we don't have here an attempt to garner to the provincial powers more and more responsibility as it relates to rural matters. We ha ve school, we have municipal regulations that are coming by way of this bill; today we even see what happens when a local group applies to this government to keep their own park. What happens? They're tu rned down. Mr.

Speaker , I think with these few comments I hope that the Min ister takes into account some of the comments that have been made and, first of all if he can't see fit to withdra w this legislation, hopefully at least he'll see the proper course is to chang e and to amend some of that area dealing with spousal disclosure. To me, it'll cause a large nu mber of muni cipal people, once they realize what they are requi red to do, it'll cause them not to run for office. With those few comments I would hope that those changes would be forthcoming. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Minn edosa. MR. D.

BLAKE: Mr. Speaker, I, too, want to add some words objecting to many of the sections of this bill. It is another disclosur e of assets bill rather than a conflict of in terest bill. - (I nterje ction) - The Mini ster is great to jump up and say well they asked for it. Mr. Speaker, I think maybe the munic ipal councillors, the Union of Mani toba Mu ni cipaliti es asked for some type of guideli nes that would be brought do wn by the gove rnm ent, some th ing that would guide them in conflict of interest areas, but not a full disclosure of assets bill such as the Min ister has brought in.

There have only been, I think, one or two cases that have received any prominence where there has been a conflict of in terest in rural councillors in the last numb er of years that I can rememb er, Mr. Speaker, and they were not really that significant. They received a fair bit of press coverage. In view of the numb er of cou nci ll ors that serve thr oughout the Provi nc e of Ma nitoba, I don't think heavy-handed government legislation such as this is what the municipal people had in mind when they may have ind icated to the Minis ter that they wanted some type of guideline s. Mr.

Speaker , the Mini ster has had an assessment review commission study for two years the assessment problem in the province and bring in a fairly large booklet with 10 0-and-some-odd recommendations in it. The Mini ster has held meetings and is sitting on that report, and yet he's willing to plow ahead with legislation such as this that's not going to be in the in terest or getting the best people to run for town council or rural muni cipalities. (Int erjection) - Mr. Speak er, the Min ister says from his seat they will now run.

I'll tell the Mini ster that you're going to lose an awful lot of good people that may wish to serve their communities, you're gong to end up with a bunch of welfare recipients, or people that have no assets to declare, on town council. The movers and the shakers in the towns and the vi lla ges and their mun icipalities are not going to be subject to laying down their assets that will be on file in the municipal office for everybody to snoop into and find out just what's what. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Speaker, the Mini ster will find that that's the case.

A MEMBER: What have they got to hide? MR. D. BLAKE: They have nothing to hide, it's just a certain amount of their assets may be rather personal. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I'm having some difficulty hearing the honourable mem ber. If other members wish to speak to the debate they may do so in their turn. The Honourable Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speak er, I will try and speak a little louder if you'r e having problems. Mr.

Speak er, the Min ister can sit there and talk all he likes about atten ding the meetings and finding that there's no problem, but I'm telling him there is a problem out there. I have have one individual in my constituenc y that almost was elected a reeve last time around, and he's being encoura ged by many many of his neighbours now to run agai n, and with this bill he just says forget it, there's no way that I'm going to run. He has assets in his wife's name that he doesn't think that anybody should be privy to, and I agree with him; that's his business, it's no busine ss of the ratepayers in that area.

He is a very capable man, could serve very very well, but this type of legislation is not going to bring those people forward, Mr. Speak er. So many of these rural councillors and rural mayors put in their time and run for election to serve their commun ity, because the remuneration is not worth the hassle they get. I'll take an example of our own Town of Minn edosa. When the mayor was asked to seek office at the last election he automatically forfeited a $9,000 insurance premium with the Town of Min nedosa. A MEMBER: This bill wi ll fix that. MR. D. BLAKE: Sure, it'll fix it; we know it'll fix it.

On top of all that, another unfavourable decision that was passed by town council caused another irate taxpayer to come in and cancel all his busine ss. This is the penalty that a great number of those people pay to serve their communit y. It's a penalty they pay to serve their communit ies. If there's conflict guideli nes the Min ister could at least allow the muni cipalities to pass their own by-law laying down confl ict-of-inter est guideli nes for the councillors without having a full disclosure of assets. 4101

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 Mr. Speak er, the Min ister of Agriculture is yipping away from his seat. Mr . Sp eaker , in li ttle rural communities where the only blacksmith in town, or the only welding shop in town, may very well be a member of town council and the local grader breaks down. All of the councillors agree that he is capable of doing the job, the price is right, go ahead and fix the machine and let's get it back into service; that's not a conflic t­ of-interest. That has gone on for years and years without a bill that's going to make him discl ose what he owns, what his wife owns.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. D. BLAKE: I'm getting a lot of help, Mr. Speak er, because my notes aren't that extensive. Mr. Speak er, there's elections coming up this fall, and whether the Min ister is aware of it or not there are going to be a lot of capable people out there that are not going to seek re-election, or are not going to seek election, whether he knows it or not. This bill could be modified, to a large degree, that would maybe encoura ge people to run for office, rather than discou rage them.

The disclosure of assets is going to be on file in the muni cipal office, and that is not a very secure spot to have information of the type that members are going to have to disclo se under this bill, Mr. Speaker. I mentioned before that the penalty a lot of them pay to serve their communit ies, because the remuneration is not really worth the hassle that a lot of them go through to have phone calls at all hours of the day or night; some of the risk they take in losing business through decisions, unpopular at times, may have to be made by council.

These men serve their communities with a dedication that has been developed over the years through a sense of trust. The people that elect them trust them to do a proper job on town council, or munici pal council, or they wouldn't have voted for them. If there's conflict of interest, Mr. Speaker, it will soon be brought to light and at the next election the results of it will be pretty evident when the votes are counted. Mr. Speaker , the bill is very much similar to the one that's being proposed for the Legislative Assembly .

I think th ose of us in this Chamber may be in a little different position than rural councillors, although I think the disclosure of asset feature on our bill is not a necessary one eit her. They can bring in conflict of guideli nes without a full disclosure of assets clause, such as, is in the bill for this Cham ber. But, Mr. Speaker, the Min ister carries on with his gn�at speeches about the need for this particular conflic t-of-interest guidelines being intr oduced to protect the muni cipaliti es. He has been out to the municipal meetings and claims he heard no large objection to it. Mr.

Speaker, you can't find that out when you run in and make a speech and ask for questions in th8 hall. He knows very well how timid many municipal councillors are in getting up in a meeting to ask questions such as that nature. If he had stayed around for the full term of those meetings, staying for the banquet and staying for the refreshment hour, he would have found that there were an awful lot of rural councillors out there that are not really happy with dis closing the assets of their wives and childr en, if they happen to be under their roof. HON. B. URUSKI: 3 percent . MR. D.

BLAKE: The Min ister says there's only 3 percent objecting to it. Well, I'm afraid he'll see, when elections come up this fall, and the fact that he hasn't mailed the bill out to all of the councillo rs, Mr. Speaker, half of them don't know about the bill, don't know what's in it, that's why he hasn't been getting the feedback, because they don't know about it he hasn't sent the bill out to them. He claims that the bill has gone out to all muni cipal offices, there might have been a copy go to each office, it hasn't gone to councillors.

Each councillor should have been provided with a copy of this legislation, in vie w of its im portance to future el ect ions and encouraging good people to run for office, that they may be able to serve their communities and serve their towns. A MEMBER: Keep the ones we've got. MR. D. BLAKE: So, I say to che Mi nis ter, he's not read ing it right, he tells us that we don't unde rstand what's going on out there. Big brother knows what's good for the rural councillors; the heavy hand of government will tell the' 11 how to run their show. HON. B. URUSKI: The union does. MR. D.

BLAKE: The union does, the Min ister says. Well, Mr. Speak er, I must be read ing the union wrong ly. I realize the union might have asked the Min ister for some type of guidelines, but not a full dis closure of assets. The Min ister will find out this fall when a numb er of councillors refuse to seek re-election for office on account of his bill. There may be - (I nterject ion) - the Min ister keeps saying, talk to the union. He's trying to lay the blame on the Union of Manitoba Mun icipaliti es, Mr. Speak er. - (I nterjection) - You'r e the Min ister responsible, you brought in the bill.

Don't try and lay it on the Union of Manitoba Muni cipalitie s. You have to take the responsibil ity for the number of people that are going to refuse to seek election or re-election this fall, Mr. Min ister.

It's going to be on your should ers and rather than worrying about legislation such as this, if you'd get your act together and do something about the assessment mess that's on in the province that you've been told and told about it under the MARC Report, and you've played games with it and used every method .'C.t your disposal to shovel it under the carpet and stall it off, because you haven't got the courage to act on it. Mr. Speak er, this bill is not going to encourage good people to run for public office. As I said earli er, those people are elected to rural communities to serve their communities.

It's not for the amount of remuneration th ey receive. It's a si ncer e desi re to serve their communities. This is not going to advance that type of person that we want to see come forward to serve his community and seek election at the rural level. 4102

• Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 Mr. Speake r, I would only be repeat ing many thin gs that have been said by my colleagues in showing some objection to the bill. The bill could be mod ified in many many ways, Mr. Speak er, that would make it a little more palatable rather than have a full dis closur e of assets. I encourage the Min ister to bring in such type of amendments that will make it a little more palatable and a little more easy to encou rage good people to seek office. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Mr.

Speak er, it's not my intention at this point in time to make any extensive comments on this bill. I think I discussed the general principle of conflict of in terest legislation qui te extensively when I dis cussed the bill which relates to members of the Legislative Assem bly. I think that the basic principle applies in regard to this bill. I would however like to address two specific points, Mr. Speak er.

First of all there has been considerable suggestion from the opposition that muni cipal councillors are dead set against this bill, and they don't want to accept at face value th"l comments from the Min ister that there is a considerable amount of supp ort for the bill out there. I could ind icate, Mr. Speak er, in talking to councillors in my area that it's not a big concern to them in terms of the general principle of the legislation. They accept it and a numb er of them positively support it, Mr. Speake r.

I recently , for example, attended a meeting of the urban muni cipalities in the Northern area, and a numb er of councillors, I think, ind icated that they look forward to having a clear set of guideli nes which would define conflict of interest. A nu mber of them have wrestled with this problem on an individual basis in their role as councill or, Mr. Speake r, and they found it somewhat difficult to determine exactly what is and what isn't a conflict of in terest, and related to that, what they should have to disclose about pecuni ary in terest and other in terests, and what they shouldn't ha ve to disclose.

I think they particularly would like to see this bill passed as a way of clearly defining exactly what conflict of int erest is taken to mean. I should also add, Mr. Speak er, that my comments when I spoke on the other conflict of in terest bill apply also to this one in regard to the fact that very little is un known in small communities anyway. I know in the case of Thompson with our population of approximately 13 ,000, most people know what in terests people have, whether one be a councillor or an ML A or MP, it doesn't really matter . It's a small commun ity, Mr.

Speaker, people already kno w a considerable amount in regard to that. The second point I would like to address briefly , Mr. Speaker, is that there has been some concern expressed about specific sections of the legislation. Since this is second reading, I unde rstand that we are basically talking about the principle of the bill rather than specific sections, and that these will be discussed further at committee. I would however at this point in time like to urge the Mini ster to take account of some of the concerns that have been expressed over some of the specific sections.

I would ·note in this regard some of the concerns expressed by councillors from the City of Thompson in regard to the possible im pact of this kind of legislation on councillo rs in sing le -in dus try to wns such as Thompson where possible conflicts related to, for example, one's connections with the major empl oyer, lnco, would create some problems under the existing legislation.

I would hope that the Min ister would consider making changes to the bill in commit tee to overcome these objections, because as I ind icated previously , I believe, most councillors in my area accept this piece of legislation in principle. They have some problems with the specifics, Mr. Speak er, but I think they feel that could be overcome with a nu mber of amendments. So I would in brief sum mary say that I supp ort this bill, Mr. Speake r, but I would hope there would be some amendments made to it. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, P. Eyler: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, it would seem as if from the last speaker's remarks that at least there's some people on that side of the House that see the falla cy in this bill, the problems with it, even though the Min ister doesn't and are going to now be proposing amendments to it. I can assure the Minis ter that if the amendments proposed by the Member for Thompson are not adequate, we will be proposing our own. Mr.

Speaker, it's too bad that the Min ister is leaving because I have some specific comments for him personally in his capacity as Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs, but I'll make them even though he is unable to atten d. (Inte rjection) This conflict of int erest has a his tory, Mr. Deputy Speake r, of being referred by the former Attorney-General my colleague, the ML A for St. Norbert, to the Law Reform Commission for study and for recommendation as to how to proceed in resolving the problem. The Law Reform Commission made a numb er of recommendations which in part are contained within this act.

The most impo rtant recommendation that the Law Reform Commission made which was left out by this gove rnment was the fact that in smalle r mun icipalities, they would adopt the act only by by­ law, so it would be by the choice of the muni cipality as to whethe r the y wish to sub ject their ele cted council lors and reeves to the requir ements of this act. That is nowhere present in this bill, so when the Mini ster says, well, the municipal councillors requested that and the Union of Manitoba Mun icipalities requested conflict of in terest, he's not really telling the truth to the people of Manitoba.

He is not telling the truth as far as how he's proceeding with this bill, because it did not contain the one very imp ortant recommendation from the Law Reform Commission. The Min ister also tells another small distortion of the truth when he's speaking from his seat today, and in question period earlier on today. He said that he attended seven regional meetings and there was hardly any issue made of the conflict of in terest legislation. I would suspect, Mr.

Deputy Speake r, there wasn 't, because contrary to the im pression that the Mini ster left with us on this side of the House some month-and­ a-half ago, that each and every councillor in the Province 4103

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 of Manitoba had received a copy of this bill, that did not happen. Without a copy of this bill the various muni cipal councillors in the towns, and the RMs of this province, and the reeves and the mayors have no idea of what is being requir ed of them, so how in the world could they comment - (Inte rjection) you know, the Attorney-General from his seat says it's a silly notion that his Min ister of Mu nicipal Affairs misled us a month­ and-a-half ago about sending copies of this bill out to the councillo rs, and that the bill was not important to the councillors.

He says that's a silly notion. Well, the Attorne y-General is a sill y pers on. He do esn 't unde rstand the process of dem ocracy in this province. He's an abrogation in this House, and he doesn't deserve the cre dib il ity co nferred on him by th e government in being Attorney-General, because he doesn't un derstand the process in this House or in this province. Mr. Speake r, the Attorney-General furthermore says that the Attorney-General status was conferred on him by the voters of this provi nce. They didn 't elect the Attorney-General; they elected an ML A.

It was his government that conferred the Attorney-General status to him, temporari ly, we all hope. Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I might point out that had the Min iste r of Mu nicip al Affairs trul y wished to get feedback on this legislation from the councillors who attended the regional meetings last week and the week previ ous, he would have made a point of passing to everyone, by mail, a copy of this bill to each and every individual councill or, with a note and a letter from the Min ister saying, if you have any concerns please bring these up at the muni cipal regional meetings that you'll be attending this spring, in Jun e.

But, no, he does not want to hear what the councillors have to say about it, because what more golden opportunity could he have had to inform councillors and to give them an opportunity to speak to him with concerns, pro or con, against this bill; and his inabili ty to provide them with information affecting their elected office is a lack of competence that we've become accustomed to from this government. They are an in competent lot over there. They bring in legislation which they will not give to the municipal councillors so they can objectively critique it at regional meetings.

If that isn't a grand failing of that Min ister and this government I don't know what else is. In question period today the Mi nister of Mu nicipal Affairs indicated that members on this side of the House were not in touch with the views and the thoughts of our muni cipal councillors. What a joke! Here's the Min ister of Mu nicipal Affairs who, as a numb er of my colleagues have said, attended for an hour-and-a-half at seven regional meetings, when our ML As attended them probably for the most of the day and had private dis cussions over coffee, over a sandwich, over lun ch with them . Where was the Min ister?

Well, he was on his way back to Winnip eg; he didn't talk to the councillo rs like we did, and they brought up these issues to us, and he has the audacity and the nerve today to say that we're not in touch with our own councillors. You know, I guess maybe the height of the ridicu lousn ess in that statement from the Min ister of Mu nicipal Affairs stems from the fact that in his own constituenc y, in his own muni cipal counci l, the y voted against th e government's proposal to make this province bilingual, and he is telling us that we are not in touch with our council lors.

He didn' t know his council lors were opposed to the process that the Attorney-General and the Premier are taking this province towards biling ualism; and he tells us we're out of touch with our councillors. His own councillors rejected the government's What 1;1ore proof do you need that he's out touch with reality and with the will and the wishes of the municipal councillors in the Province of Man itoba? - (Inte rjection) Here we have the Attorney-General, in his wisdom, saying that they objected to our distortion of the fact.

The only distortion of the bilingual issue is given to us by the Attorney-General who is trying to tell the people of Manitoba half the truth on what he intends to do in this province with the bilingual resol ution ; one-half · the truth is what the Attorney-General is telling the people. The Min ister of Mu nicipal Affairs, furthermore, says that this legislation is here because the municipal councillors have asked for it.

Well, if the Mi nis ter ol Mu nicipal Affairs and his colle agues in government are so generous with the municipal councillo rs, in doing what they ask, will i: tl.: m follow that this government, and the Attorney-General, will bc>.ck down from the biling ual amendment to the Manitoba Constitution, as reque sted by the Mu nicipal Council lors? Well, if they say they requested it, and they're doing it on one hand, why not on the other?

Will the same Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs now move, as reque sted by the mu nicip al council lo rs, on amendments to The Assessment Act, and the assessment process in the Province of Manitoba? If they're doing it in one case, why not in another? I don't think he will, because the Min ister of Mu nicipal Affairs and this government don't know what councillors in Manitoba wish the government to do; and when they do know, they're ignoring their opinion, and they have done it consistent ly, and they're doing it in two very vital issues, assessment and the biling ual amendment.

Leave it not stand on the record unc halle nged, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that the Mini ster of Municipal Affairs can stand up in this House and say that we, on this side of the House, don't kn ow wha t our elec ted council lors are thinking about, and what they wish from this government. We know an awful lot better what the municipal councillors in our areas want and expect from this government than the Min ister and the other numb er of his incomp etent group over there that deem to call themselves government.

The Attorney-General, from his seat, in the debate earlier on today said, what do the councillors have to hide? That's not the point, Mr. Deputy Speake r. This act is not a conflict of in terest act, as many of my cc aagues have said, this is a disclosure of assets, and t! 1e Member for Thompson stands up and says, it .oesn't really matter because everybody in my little Commu ni ty of Thom pson kn ows everybody els e's business. Well, if that's the case, then why are you bringing in this act requiring dis closure of assets if everybody kn ows?

It's unfathomable the depth of the lack of und erstanding that members on that side of the Ho use have of what they are doing in these bills. This is another piece of intrusive legislation from an incompetent government, and they are bringing it in 4104 '

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 against the expressed wishes of many of the councillors in the smaller muni cipalities throughout the provi nce; they are bringing it in against the recommendation in the Law Reform Commission and they are bringing it in with no kno wledge of the harm and the dama ge they're going to do to the qual ity of people who let their names stand for election in rural Mani toba; but they don't care, they obviously do not care or else, if they do care, they plain don't unde rstand what they're doing.

Either situation is bad, only one is worse, because if they're doing things without the understanding of what they're doing, then that truly proves them to be more inco mpetent than what we, and many Mani tobans, now suspe ct this government is. Mr. Speaker , I would make a suggestion to the Min ister that when this bill comes before the comm ittee, that he should be ready to make an amendment which will pa rallel the Law Reform Comm ission recommendation of smaller mun icipalities adopting this Conflic t of In terest Act by muni cipal by-law, No. 1.

No. 2, I would suggest that if we are going to have disclosure of assets required by all councillors elected, and all assets of their wives and their children, etc., that those assets do not go on file for public request by anybody • who walks in off the street and wishes to see them; that those list of assets, if inde ed the muni cipalities participate, are held in secret trust by an im partial third party, and maybe it is the Muni cipal Board; and then anyone who has a complaint, where he belie ves that a mu nicipal councillor is in conflic t of in terest through dealings with his elected office, and his business or his personal assets, that the person who belie ves a councillor has offended The Conflict of In terest Act shall, in writing, refer his complaint to this im partial third body.

The im partial third body will review the complaint, as launched by the citizen-at-large, and compare and review the accused councillor's assets. If there is no correlation and the accusation is false, and all that the individual, the accu ser, is wishing to do is find out what the councillor's assets are and his wife's assets are and his childrens assets are, he will not have the ability to do that. At least in that way, Mr.

Deputy Speaker , you will not have this hanging over legitimate, sincere and hone st people who wish to run for office that the moment they do so everybody in the commun ity and outside the community will kno w the business of the entire fami ly. I think that is only an eminently fair request, Mr. Deputy Speaker , and I would hope the Minis ter of Munici pal Affai rs would take it serious ly, giv e it consideration and bring in an amendment to allow that to be part and parcel of this Conflict of In terest Act. Thank you. MR. DEPU TY SPEAKER: The Mem ber for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move seconded by the Member for Sturgeon Creek, that deba te be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. Bill NO. 48 - THE ELECTIONS FINANCES ACT MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: tiill No. 48. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General, stand ing in the name of the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Bill 48 should be labelled "pick the pockets of people of Manitoba" act. That's really , basically , what it should be called because the bill is going to do just that, pick the people's pockets of the Province of Manitoba.

The members on the other side must have been really, really in deep, di rty, rotten thought when they came up with this particular bill, when they decided that the people of Manitoba should now be forced to pay for the election expenses for the Honourable members in this House. In fact, it's shameful, Sir, that anybody would even think or would even bring that into this Legislature at the present time.

People are unemplo yed in this province, the economy of the province is not good and we start talking about forcing the people of Manitoba to pay for the election expenses of the honourable members that are elected to this House. It's not only shameful, they ought to feel downright low about asking for it. Mr. Speaker, the Attorney -General, who is not here at the present time, of course, he is - I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, he was here, he's probably on busi ness somewhere, but he's not here at the present time and I'm sorry he isn't because I would like him to hear it.

Because you see, the Attorney-General has given them the education over there that you can't go into a fair fight. The only thing you can do is have it all one-sided on your side - that's the only way a socialist goes into a fight. When it's fair, he stays out of it and otherwise he makes it one-sided towards hi mself. That's really the way that they want to do it. Mr. Speaker , a socialist absolutely has no more internal fortitude about going into a battle with anybody if it's going to be a fair fight; if he goes into it in a fair fight he will find a way to make the odds to his benefit so he can get you.

That's what the Attorney-General has basically taught the members on the opposite side. You see, Mr. Speaker , when we talk about the money, the Attorney-General gets up and says we put through legislation - or the Progressive Conser vatives put through legislation - that was having the public pay for their elections and nobody on this side has ever given the argument or nobody on this side has ever disagreed with the fact that a person of his own free will can make - I was going to hear something from the Member for St. Johns who is now one of the bigger hypocrites in this House when we talk money - but, Mr.

Speaker , who says ... MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Or der pl ease. The Honourable Min ister of Natural Resources on a point of order. HON. A. MACKLl lll G: Yes, Mr. Speaker , I'd like the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek to reflect on the words he uses in the House. MR. F. JOHNS TON: Mr. Speaker , if the member does not like that, I'll withdraw the word "hypocrites" - but a person who appears to be something he isn't more than anybody else in this House, I'll gladly put it in that way. 4105

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 Mr. Speak er, we have a situation at the present time where they can voluntari ly, of their own free will, say that I want to donate some money to a political party, to a person, they can say they want to donate it to that person but nobody tells them they have to. They do get a tax receipt, nobody has said - (Inte rjection) - that's right nobody has said they don't get a tax receipt. I' ve heard it a hundr ed times over there, who pays for the tax receipt. I' ve said nobody has said they don't get a tax receipt; we admit that.

But they are free, Sir, to make the donation any way they please. Now, Mr. Deputy Speak er, if that system is so bad, take it out. Take out the tax receipt situation, if they're going to stand there and with their representation of something that they'r e not, they go ahead and they put in a new system, Sir, that says the public wi ll now be forced to pay for the elections - but they didn't, and they criticized - they said we put in a system that the public paid for elections. Did they change it? No, they just added to it, Mr.

Speaker , that we are going to force everybody in Manitoba to pay for the ML As' elections. No choice. You have the choice and you don't have the choice. You have the choice to get a tax receipt and yet you're still forced to pay for all the rest. Mr. Speaker , I heard from the member on the other side that we have the choice not to pay somebody's tax credit, and you know the young man is getting a little older every day but his head's not moving with him. I have said a hundr ed times that people get a tax credit out of our legislation and there is no choice, it has to be pai d.

But the person made out the donation voluntari ly, and you haven't taken that away. They haven't taken that away, but they've added a new one that picks the pockets of every person in Manitoba. Do you know that there are people in Manitoba, Sir, that didn't donate to any party? Do you know that there were people in Manitoba who said, I don't want to pay out any money towards any member or any politician of any kind; I don't want any part of it.

As a matter of fact, Sir , th ere are religious organizations who oppose paying their tax dollars or any part of the mone y, their ha rd-earned mone y, towards political activities. I wonder if they were thought of. They have often come before the comm ittees of this Hou se, they have often made the statements that we are religious denominations, and as such, we do not contribute to political parties. Those people who didn't make any donations to politic al parties whatsoever are now going to be forced to do so. So, Mr. Speaker, let's not have any falderal and the chattering that we get from the system we put in.

The reason why the system was put in was because it gave the people the opportunity who wanted to choose the candidate of their choice or wanted to support the candidate of their choice the opportunity to do so, and they received a tax receipt. - (In terjection) - Ym .. see now it's all changed. Now we have a situation - (I nterje ction) where the NOP Party cou ldn't live with that. They didn't have enough people that wanted to support them. (Int erjection) - They talk about the big companies that support the Conservatives. Do you know, Mr.

Speake r, in my travels, which I travel and call on companies, I saw the letters from the NOP Party that were sent to every company and busi ness in this province soliciting funds - (Int erjection) - and they say they don't ask for funds? As a matter of fact, the li st is all publ ic. - (I nterj ection) Look at the list, it's there. The Election Act says you have to report it, it's there.

I saw letters to companies from the NOP saying, would you please make a financial donation to our cause, and they on the other side who represent the mselves as something that they aren't are after busi ness every day to support their party. - (I nterject ion) No, they went after the big ones, they went after the banks, they went after them all, and they took, Mr. Speak er, the money from whoever they could get it from and they said thank you very much. There's absolutely no question about that. Mr.

Speaker , I'm hearing the chatter from the backbench at the other side and they will have the opportunity to get up and tell me that they did not solicit all sizes of busi ness for funds to the NOP Party. Tell me you didn' t and, Sir, I will use the word that's not supposed to be used in this House, because I've seen the letters. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. HON. A. MACKLING: Would the honourable member permit a question? MR. F. JOHNSTON: No, Mr. Speaker , if he's got a question I'll answer it later. Mr. Speake r, I kno w the an swer, I saw the letters. I make calls on busine sses in this province. Mr.

Speak er, now we have a situation where in this act, when it comes to elections, somebody should say that you can spend so much money on advertising, or you can spend so much money per candidate, or something of that nature. Personal ly, I don't see much sense in any of it. I believe that if you want to set up an amount of how much somebody can spend, how he collects that money is his own busine ss. I really don't think that it's part of the Legislature's job to lay down rules and regulations of who and how money is collected, whether it's by a social, whether it's by a donation, or how it is done.

I don't think that's any cause for concern of the Legislature. If you want to have a cause and concern about how much is spent on advert ising, or how much is spent by each mem ber, that's fine, go ahead, but I personally don't believe in that eit her. I know we had it on advertising, but we didn't have too much of a control of how much money had to be spent on elections. You see that bothered the NOP again. They went into a fair fight. We all had the same advantage.

They said this legislation is not to our advantage, because those people seem to be able to have more money or collect more money or have the ability or the brains or the busi ness sense to put toget her a better financial situation - (I nterject ion) Sir, so they said we've got to stop that. We can't go in on a fair fight, we've got to get the odds more to our side. That's really the reason for this legislation, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I can't really un derstand why somebody, and I' ve checked the bill over and I haven't looked at the other bill, but it just amazes me when it says that there's a group of people that go to a meeting and they pass the ha!, and the hat is passed , and we've got to put down the names and the contributions of everybody in that hall when they pass the hat, and if 4106

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 it's over $10 - they can't be more than $10 or it's got to be returned or something to the Solicitor-General or you've got to give it to the Mi ni ster of Finance if it's over $10 - and passing the hat, Sir, was never a habit at our meetings to speak of, it was an NDP game. That was the game they always played, pass the hat. So now they' ll pass it and everybody will walk into that room with a bunch of $5 bills in their pockets, and then they' ll all be li sted and what have you.

Can you see anything so stupid as when people go to a meeting and they pass the hat at the meeting, we've got to write their names down and how much they gave. If we go to have a social, we've got to have the names for the social and how much was colle cted at the social. - (In terjection) - You see, Mr. Speak er, that's how really silly the person that wrote this bill is.

In fact, when he decided to picket the pockets of the people of Mani toba, he de ci ded I'd better ha ve something else in this, because I'v e got to make it look as if I was thinking of something else, and really the other things that he thought of in here are really quite stupid. There are a couple that are qui te serious. This club, this group, the financing of other politi cal parties, and every registered political party will have representation on this board. Well I can honestly say, Mr.

Speak er, that I would say that within two elections or by the next election, the NDP Party and the Cons ervative Party will not have any say of what goes on in that Board , because the Rhi nocerous Party , the Marxists, the Communi sts, and the Green Party that we've heard about at the present time, the Progressive Party which is there, the Progressive Con servative Party and the NDP Party will not have a say on that board, because anybody that's a registered party in the Province of Manitoba will have representation on it.

I can assure you the kooky parties will have the majority on that board. (lnt erjection)- Mind you, I will say that the NDP does have an alliance with several of them, there's no question about that. But I can assure you the representation on that Board will be more from other parties than from the NDP and Conse rvatives put together. It can happen, the act says it can happen, and that's how stupid the act is. Anybody can form a party tomorrow and all of a sudden they're involved in The Elections Financing Act and everything else. A MEMBER: Even the Commun ists, Frank. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Oh, they'll see to that.

MR. D. ORCHARD: Especially the Communi sts, if the Attorney-General is in charge. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speak er, the full canvass that I have in my hand here that says "Another Success Stor y." This is put out by the Canadian Labour Federation, this little document, "Bui lding A Better Manitoba," and how sweet it is. Mr. Speaker , just to quote from it, it says, "A phone bank of 20 phones, over 10 0 phone canvassers took part. They were on the phones, afternoon and evening during the last three weeks of the campaign in Winnipeg. The last week in Brandon, 19, 049 calls were made; 7,654 uni on households contacted.

Of the 7,6 54 conta cted , 55 percent of households were sup porters; less than 10 percent were opposed; 10 0 election day workers were identified; 600 sign locations; thousands of definite votes passed on to riding campaigns. Said Eugene Kostyra, the new Mini ster of Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs, Co-Chairman of the Election Planning Commi ttee, 'As a candida te, I was fully aware of the impa ct of the MF L, the CLC campaign, the phone campaign .'" Let's turn it over and we find, "The training of organi zers and canvassers began.

Finally , in the spring of 19 8 i, the can vasses of 18 ,0 00 worker s were canvassed. They di scussed the issues wh ich had effected them to victory.'' Then you have, "By the way, while we were doing all this, the United Food and Commercial Workers in Manitoba also successfully used a canvass to talk with their members about their neighbours and their collective bargaining issues. During the summer and early fall, two leaflets were designed; one for non-election period, one in case election was called.

During this time, the federation and the CLC were carrying out their regular pre-election activities, raising money from unions for Manitoba NDP election effort and arranging the release of people to work during the riding campaign. And election day, November 17 th, did not see an end of Manitoba's labour action program. The federation and its affiliates intended to continue to build the canvass machine, getting more and more locals involved, more people trained, and reaching more and more workers through the yearly job canvas s.'' Mr.

Speaker , what is the ND Party going to claim or what are they going to say the benefit of that is? How much money are they going to put in for that? How much money? They go to busi nesses, they have this from the unions, the check- offs from the unions and everything else and they go to business as well and yet they critici ze us.

They put in this Election Act that nobody, anonymously - if my neighbour down the street decides that he'd like to send a pamph let out on my behalf - I can un derstand the Member for St Johns hasn't got anybody that wants to do that for him - but if I have somebody that wants to do it on my behalf, I can assure you that that can't be done. The Mi ni ster for St. Johns maybe should have members from St. Johns; maybe he should have it done, because if nobody owned up to doing it, maybe he'd have to resign.

If somebody wants to send out some literature for you and they don't sign it, send it out on your behalf, are you going to be in a court case? Are we going to ha ve to prove something? Are we going to have to prove that you didn't know that this person was doing it and you gave him no authori zation to and, in fact, if he comes along and says, I did it, you've got to report and tell everything he did. Mr. Speaker , how dumb can we be, to put things like that in a bill?

I mentioned the others, meetings, socials and somebody wh o truly wants to assist you and doesn't want it known; and that does happen in elections. As a matter of fact, it has happened to the point where there has been literature sent out on behalf of a candidate and the candidate didn't want that type of literature going out. (I nterjection) - Yes, it can happen. You better find out about it the next time or you'll have to resign . Mr. Speaker , now we have all of this silly legisla tion; all of the things that will be almost impossible to chase, 4107

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 impossible to prove if you have to prove them; you're going to have people looking at ways on how to circumvent. It's happened all through histor y, that the campaign people of both parties will sit down - not both parties, all parties now - and they'll read this bill and say, well, it doesn't say we can't do that. It doesn't say we can't do something else. So, you know, why do you give that type of opportunity for people to sit down and try and find ways to get around The Elections Act. Mr.

Speaker , as I told you before - you weren't here, Sir, it was the Deputy Speaker that was in the Chair - that the socialists can't go into an election when it's fair; they have to get the odds working on their side, and to prove that, Mr. Speaker , the labour legislation, the Canadian Labour that I have here in front of me, an

article that they put out, they said how much they did for the NOP Government under the dir ection of the Min ister Eugene Kostyra. I suggest, Mr. Speak er, that there should be an amendment to this particular legislation that says that election day did not see the end of it, of the phoning, of the canva ssing. Howard Pawley's election was caused by the ward work of the federation and the people of the federation working for them and they were doing all of this - and the fact that they put in phone banks and paid for them; the fact that they put out literature and paid for it, all of those things - Mr.

Speak er, I don't really care if the person wants to canvass for them and phone for them, but the cost of the phones, the costs of the literature, the costs of all of these things that these people are bragging about - if they wouldn't brag about it, I would maybe not bring it up - but they brag about it and then we don't have anything in the bill to speak of that that amount of money has to be a figur e that is spent on the election that should be deducted from the amount of each candidate. Mr.

Speaker, that's the type of legislation we're used to seeing from the NOP, as my colleague from Pembina says, incompetent, absolutely incomp etent. And, Mr. Speak er, when we get into the situation where there's going to be political parties, if they get a percentage of the vote, they will now get 50 percent of their election expenses paid. Candi dates who get 10 percent of the vote will now get their election expenses paid or 50 percent of them. Under the federal system, Mr.

Speaker, there are bank accounts of people of Canada's money sitting there idle, not doing anything, with candida tes that probably will never be elected, that got 10 percent of the vote and that money is building up in those bank accounts and it's wrong. You will have candida tes that get 50 percent of their expenses paid, there will be money donated to them. That money could technically be used in another constituenc y if it was to be released after the election, to be used any time at all. That money could be used if it's in the constituenc y account to help put in offices, etc.

There's nothing to say what that money can be used for and it's going to build up in bank accounts in this province. - (Int erjection) Is that right, Mr. Speaker? (Interject ion) - Is it right to take the money from some person's bank account and put it in yours to gain interest? - (I nterje ction) Mr. Speaker , that's just about what happens and we're saying that all of those ... is it right, Mr. Speaker, that a person who doesn't want to make any type of contribution to any type of political party whatso ever should ha ve his mone y sitting in a memb er or candidate's bank account in this province?

That's not right, it's a damn dis grace. It's theft, it's legislating theft, that's what it is because your mone y, their mone y, is going to be sitting in bank accounts of people that will not be elected and they'll be sitting there with trust accounts gaining in terest and those people don't want to donate to political parties. That, Sir, is theft. That is absolute theft of people's mon ey. You have said the money cannot sit in his bank account, it's got to sit in yours, or in that candidate's that wasn't elected. Or it's got to sit in a candidate's bank account that was elected.

Let's use my own example, Sir, I will guarantee you that I can raise enough money in my constitue ncy for the next election. We have, on several di fferent elections. I have no intention of using a person's money that doesn't want to give it to me. I receive 10 percent of the vote; the NOP candidate will receive 10 percent of the vote; he might not be able to finance his election in that constituenc y, I doubt if he can. - (I nterjection) - I heard, sure he can. I happen to know that he didn't. So, Mr.

Speaker, the candidate that's running against me now will have 50 percent of his expen ses so he'll spend a lot more. That doesn't bother me, I'll take on a socialist any time. But I am going to raise the money for my election in my constituency or from people who want to donate to me and I am going to end up with 50 percent of my election expenses in a bank account and all of you are going to do the same thing.

You're going to end up with - maybe you won't have 50 percent left maybe you'll only have 10 percent of the money left - but you'll have it in a bank account and that money belongs to the people of Manitoba. Maybe this legislation should say that if you have any left over it should come to the Minis ter of Finance. I haven·t seen that, that's a good idea why don't (I nterje ction) - the Mini ster of Housing says that's a good idea, we'll expect the amendment. But I doubt if any of his colleagues will let it happen. You'r e right.

They won't let it happen because they like to sit with other people's money in their bank account. People's money that the people had no choice what soever, they had to give it to them. Mr. Speak er, I mentioned one time that I had a good friend and everybody laughed about it but this good friend is an NOP person, who has voted NOP in my constituency for many years. A very good friend of the Minis ter of Resources, by the way, who said to me, Frank, I've never voted for you but I'll be dam ned ii I'll vote for somebody that insists that I pay for their elections.

I will tell the honourable member sometime, if he's walking down the hall, who it was. Mr. Speak er, they think that out there the people don't mind this but the people do mind. They go to work, they earn mone y, the like to spend it on holi days, they like to enjoy themselves. In fact there's a lot of people who aren't working who don't have any money to spare and now we, in Manitoba, are going to tell them that they have to pay for the election campaigns or 50 percent of the election campaigns of the people that are sitting in this room and the Member for The Pas keeps saying, just as they've always done.

Would you don ate to the Con servative Party? Would you? Mr. Speaker , I ;1.sked the question, I know. I can't - but he would not donate to the Cons ervative Party but 4108

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 he's going to have to. He's going to have to now. He had the choice of who he sup ported before. Not one of them sitting over there would write a cheque or donate any money to the Conservative Party. I assure you I wouldn't donate any to the NOP but we're going to have to donate to one another and all I can tell you, Mr. Speak er, is that freedom of choice? Is that freedom of choice? Mr. Speak er, that is the greatest form of stupid ity I've ever seen in my life. So, Mr.

Speak er, if they were looking at The Election Act, or the election results and they said well we've got 49 percent of the votes in this province, you know they're going to give us - they've got 49 percent of the votes, we had less, so we're going to gain. Those NPD people, tho se 47 percent that voted for you are all now all going to be making dona tions to wards the Progressive Con servative Par ty. We don't want it . A MEMBER: Do I hear 16? MR. F. JOHNSTON: . .. and I don't intend to use it. I intend to raise the money to run in the next election in my own constituenc y. So, Mr.

Speak er, those members on the other side who are smiling to themselves figuring that they have got the advantage which they have to have to go into a fight - the Attorney-General is here now, he's finis hed the business that he had outside the House so I will say that he has trained you not to go into a fight fair, don't go in equal, always get it one-sided on your way, always have the odds to your side or else don't go into it, that's strictly the way he moves, that's the way socialists move, that's the way his phi losophy moves, don't go in equal. They wouldn't know how to walk in and into a battle. Mr.

Spea ker, I assure you that this is the bill that should be called Bill No. 48, "the pickp ocket bill of the Province of Mani toba." The elec tions pick pocket fina nces act is what it really is. The election pickpockets financ es act of picking the pockets of those that aren't work ing, as well. Picking the pockets of those people who have never made a donation to a political party in their life, you'll pick their pockets. (In terjection) - Yes. And then we get the smart alee remark, pick the pockets of a pickled pickle. You know, the smart alee remark from the Attorney-General.

I call him a smart alee all the time; that's what he is and that's what he is proven to be. He really doesn't know what it's all about. It's strictly the situation, Mr . Sp eak er, of the pickp ocket act and they are going to suffer for it. They are going to suf fer for it; they are going to lose the next election. I said this on other things; they are going to lose the next election for doing things in this House that they never went to the people about. Yesterday we heard the Attorne y-General, and he talked about when this resolution got to the Federal House. You see, Mr.

Speak er, it's assumed that it's there. There's no discussion with the people. It doesn 't matter what happens in Law Amendments; it doesn't matter what happens in commit tees; it wouldn't matter what happens in hearings; it doesn't matter that 10 0 out of 11 7 municipalities are against something, as my colleague from Pembina just mentioned, none of tho se things matter with this government; they just don't go ahead and commun icate with the people, and these are the things that will defeat them.

You know, the Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs talks about commun ica ting with the people about election expenses, or the municipal bill. Well, Mr. Speaker, I just heard from the twerp across the way, and I don't really care to hear from him, but these people who won't listen, these people on the other side of the House here that won't listen, will learn, they will learn that the public of Manitoba won't put up with that any longer than they have to and they will change the government because of that.

They don't like smart alee arrogance like we get from Springfield; and we don't like all the arrogance that we get from the people across the way. The Min ister of Mu nicipal Affairs said, I spoke to the muni cipal people. I was at the one he was at in Woodlands; he sat at the back during the first half hour of the meeting, or 45 min utes, he came in a little late, after the meeting started, and he sat in behind the main table.

He spoke for half an hour; he had an assistant in his department read the thing about the resolution that's before us at the present time; he answered very few questions on it and not accurately at that And all he said was, you know, we think this is the best thing for you, as far as muni cipal people are concerned; then he had dinner and then he left He was in this House by 2:00 o'clock. Those of us from this side who were there spent a day with them, and you know what we found out during that day, we found out exactly what I'm saying, Mr.

Spea ker, about this Elections Act They didn't listen to the people, then, about this act; they haven't listened to the people about anything, and that will defeat them the next time around. l\llFI. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: I wonder if the Member for Sturgeon Creek would answer a question on his speech?

Several times during his speech the Member for Stu rgeon Creek said that this would give us an advantage, the NOP would receive an advantage from this bill, I wonder if the Member for Sturgeon Creek could explain just how it is that this bill gives an advantage to the NOP, to the detriment of the Progressive Cons ervative Party? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: I didn't hear the last part of the question, but I hear my colleague saying it's not a detriment of us, it's a detriment to the people.

And if his question was of whether it's a detriment to political parties, it's of no advantage to the people, it's only an advantage to the people sitting in this House; that's the only people it's an advantage to. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the mem ber. FAR. SPEAKER: Or der pl ease. The honourable member's time has expired. It would require leave of the House for a question to be asked. I'm sorr y, leave his not been granted. 4109

Tuesday, 5 July, 1983 The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr . Sp eak er. In addressing this act today, I think we should look at the kind of tactics we're seeing from mem bers of the opposition on acts such as this in this Session. There's a standard form ula that they are developing in debate. The fir st formula is, make very little reference to the specifics of the act. I think that's been particularly evident in regard to The Elections Finances Act; that's the first formula, Mr. Speaker .

The second form ula involved is to suggest that this is somehow some great socialist piece of legislation which is somehow imposing on the people of Manitoba, that it's come out of the blue, that it's for some ulterior motive ... MR. A. ANSTETT: No, no, out of the red. MR. S. ASHTON: The Member for Springfield says, out of the red. That's normally the sort of tone, Mr. Speaker. That it's for motives of, as the Member for Sturgeon Creek suggested, of theft; it's

an act which would involve pickpocketing the public of Manitoba. Well really, Mr. Speaker, if one looks at elections finance legislation, particularly the act before us today, one will find that this is not a unique or radical piece of legislation whats oever. If one looks at it in the di fferent aspects of the bill; if one looks at the basic principle, if one looks at the basic content of the bill, one will find that simi lar legislation has been acted in many other provinces, Mr. Speake r. That's the first point that has to be made, and I will develop that point in the debate today.

There's also a second point, I think, that has to be made as well, Mr. Speak er, and that is that this piece of legislation is in keeping with the principle of the legislation enacted by members opposite. As much as they protest, Mr. Speak er, that the tax credit system was not elections financing or party financing, as much as they protest that, they cannot protest one obvious fact, and that is, that that tax credit system is fina nced by the taxpa yers of this province. For them to suggest that it is a volunt ary system, Mr. Speak er, is inaccurate. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek on a point of order. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker , I'm sure the member would not like to be quoting things that are not accurate. I don't recall ever saying that we protested the other system. I don't recall ever saying or ever hearing anybody on this side say we protested against the other system, or we were against it. llll R. SPEAKER: The honourable member did not have a point of order . He migh t ha ve had a point of clarification. The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Obviously the member has missed my point.

They did not protest the previous legislation, they protested that it was somehow fundamentally di fferent from the legislation before us today. A MEMBER: Which it is. A MEMBER: It sure is. MR. S. ASHTON: Well, Mr. Speaker, they say, which it is. And they have said, they have argued that it is a volun tary system. MR. C. MANNESS: Which it is. MR. S. ASHTON: Well, the Member for Morris says, "which it is." Well, volun tary for who, Mr. Speaker? It may be volu ntary for those tha t contribute to parties, but it is not volun tary for the taxpa yers of this province. I, and every other taxpayer in thi