First Session, 43rd Parliament

Official Report

of Debates

( Hansard )

Thursday, April 3, 2025

Afternoon Sitting

Issue No. 33

The Honourable Raj Chouhan , Speaker

ISSN 1499-2175

The HTML transcript is provided for informational purposes only.

The PDF transcript remains the official digital version.

Contents

Routine Business

Introduction and First Reading of Bills

Bill M208 — Emergency and Disaster Management Amendment Act, 2025

Macklin McCall

Orders of the Day

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Health (continued)

Claire Rattée

Hon. Josie Osborne

Trevor Halford

Peter Milobar

Brennan Day

Steve Kooner

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Citizens’ Services (continued)

Hon. George Chow

Rosalyn Bird

Estimates: Ministry of Education and Child Care

Hon. Lisa Beare

Lynne Block

Reann Gasper

Thursday, April 3, 2025

The House met at 1:01 p.m.

[The Speaker in the chair.]

Routine Business

Introduction and

First Reading of Bills

Bill M208 — Emergency and Disaster

Management Amendment Act, 2025

Macklin McCall presented a bill intituled Emergency and Disaster Management Amendment

Act, 2025.

Macklin McCall : I move that a bill intituled Emergency and Disaster Management Amendment Act, 2025,

of which notice has been given in my name on the order paper, be introduced and read

a first time now.

I rise today to introduce the Emergency and Disaster Management Amendment Act, 2025,

a bill rooted in the urgent need to strengthen our province’s ability to respond to

emergencies. British Columbians, especially in rural and remote communities, know

the devastation that wildfires, floods and other disasters can bring, yet in the face

of these challenges, we consistently see neighbours helping neighbours. We consistently

see everyday people stepping up not because they have to but because they want to.

This bill is about empowering those individuals. It’s about getting willing volunteers

off the sidelines and giving them the tools, structure and opportunity they need to

protect their communities and their province.

The current act acknowledges volunteers, but it lacks the structure to fully harness

their potential. This amendment addresses that. It proposes a clearer path for those

with the skills, training or lived experience to self-identify and engage directly

with emergency response organizations, whether it’s a retired firefighter, a skilled

tradesperson or someone with previous emergency experience. This bill helps them step

in where their community needs them most.

Importantly, this bill also directs the minister to establish a committee to support

the creation of a new provincial organization, the B.C. volunteer corps. This corps

will encourage and facilitate volunteerism for the purposes of this act and will serve

as a centralized platform for individuals to access volunteer opportunities and training

programs, helping to push towards a Good Samaritan legal framework for citizens responding

to natural disasters.

This is about tapping into the strength of our people, ensuring that local knowledge

and capable hands are not turned away and making sure that rural communities, in particular,

have access to the support they need, when they need it. Let’s make it easier for

British Columbians to stand up, step in and support one another in times of crisis.

The Speaker : Members, the question is first reading of the bill.

Motion approved.

Macklin McCall : I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the

next sitting of the House after today.

Motion approved.

[1:05 p.m.]

Orders of the Day

Hon. Mike Farnworth : In this chamber, I call the estimates for the Ministry of Health.

In the Douglas Fir Room,

Section A, I call continued estimates debate on the Ministry

of Citizens’ Services and, following that, the Ministry of Education.

The House in Committee,

Section B.

The committee met at 1:06 p.m.

[Mable Elmore in the chair.]

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Health

(continued)

The Chair : I call Committee of Supply,

Section B, to order. We are considering the estimates

for the Ministry of Health.

On Vote 32: ministry operations, $34,996,928,000 (continued) .

Claire Rattée : I would just like to start out today by confirming with the minister that the 20

minutes that was taken for her to do a press conference the other day when we started

estimates won’t be taken from our time.

Hon. Josie Osborne : Yes, I believe that is the understanding, but I would recommend that your House Leaders

talk.

Claire Rattée : I just wanted to confirm.

Minister, given the substantial implications of the recent carbon tax repeal on this

year’s budget, your repeated references to the PHSA review report, due by the interim

CEO Penny Ballem in six weeks, and its potential implications for this year’s health

budget, will you commit to releasing that report in its unredacted form when you receive

it?

Hon. Josie Osborne : Before I respond to the member’s question, I want to take the opportunity to introduce

Cynthia Johansen, to my left. She’s the new Deputy Minister of Health. Today is her

second day, and no better way to get to know the ministry than sitting in on estimates.

Welcome to Cynthia.

Of course, I am joined by my very capable team of professionals here as well, and

I thank them for their support.

As well, before I answer the member’s question, I do want to read into the record

an answer to one of the questions that came forward from two days ago. The member

had asked specifically about a breakdown, by health authority, on wait times for bed-based

treatment and recovery services. I am going to provide that by health authority, for

fiscal year 2023-2024.

The median wait time for Fraser Health Authority was 34.35 days; Interior Health Authority,

31 days; Northern Health Authority, one day; Provincial Health Services Authority,

26.8 days; Vancouver Coastal Health Authority, 57.85 days; and Vancouver Island Health

Authority, 26.25 days, for an overall provincial median wait time of 31 days.

[1:10 p.m.]

Those are health authority–funded wait times, but as we’ve discussed before in this

chamber, we are funding 295 beds through the Canadian Mental Health Association, where

wait times in fiscal 2023-2024 were 27.5 days.

I’m also aware that the member had asked for some other information. We’re still committed

to getting that to her, and that will happen next week.

On the subject of the review of the Provincial Health Services Authority, I am expecting

and have requested a report on the progress in six weeks. This isn’t a form of a formal

written report, so it’s not something that I intend to release publicly. However,

I will be able to provide an update on progress, and some of that will just depend

on where we’re at. It’s the very, very first days of the review.

I look forward to receiving that update from Dr. Ballem and the team in about six

weeks’ time.

Claire Rattée : Just to clarify, is that a no, then? You will not be releasing the report.

Hon. Josie Osborne : Again, I’ll receive an update from the team. There are cabinet confidences to be

respected. That’s why I’ll be able to give a general update at that time when I receive

it but don’t intend on publicly releasing any written report at that time.

Claire Rattée : At what point can we expect to see a written report from Penny Ballem?

[1:15 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : First of all, I want to acknowledge that the work of undertaking a review of the

Provincial Health Services Authority is a big and complex piece of work and that there

will be a number of tasks that are part of that. Of course, as the member knows, and

we’ve talked about it in the chamber here too, this ultimately is about delivering

better health care services to British Columbians.

The review will focus on administrative structures, on roles and responsibilities,

on opportunities to meet the requirement to ensure that the maximum amount and the

best use of the resources that are available are being applied to front-line care

for British Columbians. We expect this review to be undertaken in a series of iterative

cycles, and as progress is made, there’ll be an opportunity for me and for government

to provide those progress reports.

There is not a set time on the specific end of this because, again, the work has just

gotten underway. But Dr. Ballem and the team of people that are undertaking this review

understand that they are accountable to government and to myself. That’s why I will

ask them for those regular progress reports and be able to update everybody, the public,

as that work becomes available. I really expect this team, of course, to be entirely

focused on the work at hand.

Again, this is about ensuring that the health authority is delivering services as

efficiently and effectively as possible.

Claire Rattée : I asked when the report would be due, the final report. I would assume that there

should be a due date on that. If we’re contracting somebody to do this work, I would

assume that there’d be a timeline on it.

I would just like to know clearly when that report is due. I don’t think that that’s

something that should need to be conferred on with staff. I would imagine that’s something

that the Health Minister should know. What date is this report going to be tabled?

Hon. Josie Osborne : As I just stated, there is not a specific time

schedule for the end of the review.

That is because the team needs to get in and begin the review process. They’re going

to go through a series of iterative cycles. There will be regular progress reports

that are provided to me and to cabinet. That’s understood and expected by the team,

and we’ll do it that way.

This work needs to be done thoughtfully, it needs to be done carefully, and it needs

to be done with all respect to health care workers and patients, and with their involvement

in the review as well. We’re going to undertake it that way and implement changes

as the recommendations come forward and as we are able to consider those and implement

them. My commitment to British Columbians, of course, is to continue to do everything

that I can and that we can, as a government, to strengthen our public health care

system.

The review of the Provincial Health Services Authority — and, ultimately, the regional

health authorities as well — is specifically to ensure that our resources are being

used in the most effective, most efficient way, that they are being applied to the

front lines and that British Columbians are getting the best health care possible.

Claire Rattée : Since she was appointed as the interim CEO, is it then the expectation that she would

stay on, long term, to finish this report if there is no timeline?

Hon. Josie Osborne : I’m grateful to Dr. Ballem for having accepted the position as an interim CEO. That

is just what she will be. Again, I know that she will be wholly focused on the work

at hand: undertaking the review. It is my commitment and my responsibility to ensure

that this review is done — again, thoroughly, carefully, competently.

There is a team at work who will be undertaking this. As those reports become available,

I will be providing those. We will see the changes that may be made at the Provincial

Health Services Authority, keeping my mind and our government’s mind on doing everything

possible to ensure that resources and investments made into B.C.’s health care system

are applied in an efficient way and that they are applied in a way where British Columbians

can see the improvement in health care services that they deserve.

[1:20 p.m.]

Claire Rattée : So it seems as if we don’t have a timeline on the review and with her being appointed

as an interim CEO, I’m assuming that, with no timeline, that means we’ve added another

bureaucrat. I’m going to move on.

The minister stated that the $500 million over three years — a portion will go, of

the budget…. It’s set to fund the ongoing operations of 3,600 treatment and recovery

beds. I would like to know how many net new treatment beds have been added and will

be added, and can the minister distinguish between public, private and publicly funded?

Hon. Josie Osborne : There are 3,778 publicly funded substance use beds operating in British Columbia

at the moment. Budget 2023 had committed to adding new substance use beds. We discussed

two days ago that part of the $500 million in Budget 2025 is for the creation of new

beds. This is new beds beyond the 3,778 — for example, through Road to Recovery.

The funding to operate the 3,778 beds is included in the base budget. That’s not the

$500 million that the member was referring to. Again, that’s additional dollars that,

in part, will be used to create new substance use beds, treatment beds.

Since 2017, we’ve added more than 750 new publicly funded adult and youth substance

use beds. The focus here, really, for the ministry is on the publicly accessible,

publicly funded treatment beds, for the very important reason of removing barriers

for people so that they can access the kind of treatment that they seek and that they

need and will continue to be the focus of the ministry.

Claire Rattée : For clarity, out of those numbers, I would just like to be very clear that those

do not include withdrawal management beds. Those are strictly treatment and recovery

beds.

Also, how many of those beds will be further north than Prince George?

[1:25 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : The 3,778 publicly funded beds do include withdrawal management beds, bed-based treatment,

sobering and assessment beds.

The member asked specifically…. If I don’t answer this correctly because it wasn’t

quite hitting the question she asked, I know that she will clarify afterwards. But

north of Prince George, and I will say in the Northern Health Authority is how I can

break this down, there currently are 79 supportive recovery bed-based services, 30

withdrawal management beds, ten sobering and assessment beds and one substance use

supported-housing bed. Now, that’s, for adults, a total of 120.

Further, there are seven bed-based treatment beds for youth and one withdrawal management

bed for youth in the Northern Health Authority.

Claire Rattée : Since those do include withdrawal management beds, could the minister please get

to me at some point — not right now — the figures on how many treatment and recovery

beds, not including withdrawal management beds, are being funded in this year’s budget?

What is the average length of time funded by this government per stay, per treatment

bed?

[1:30 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : The member asks about average length of treatment, and that is a difficult question

to answer, in part because the journey of treatment and recovery and healing looks

so different for each person. The health authorities do not fund or provide a set

length of stay but rather work with clients to ensure that programs and services work

best for them.

For example, in a withdrawal management bed, the stay could be as short as five days,

but there are also therapeutic recovery communities that are being established and

being funded where a stay could be over a year. It’s important to fund that range

of treatment recovery services and programs.

I think the closest, probably, I can come to answering the member’s question is to

say that on average, it might be a 90-day stay but, again, that service providers

are working closely with each client to ensure that the service is right for them

and working with them as they move through treatment and recovery.

Claire Rattée : Does the ministry track relapse rates post-detox, and do they track the efficacy

of 30- versus 60- versus 90-day stays, for example, and if so, how is that information

informing the future funding allocations?

[1:35 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : Before specifically answering the member’s question, I’ll point out that prior to

2021, there was absolutely no monitoring of the kind that the member has asked about.

It’s only been since 2021 that the ministry has developed a performance measurement

framework that is helping to monitor access and service utilization, the number of

clients that are served in health authority–funded adult, bed-based substance use

treatment and recovery services. Again, before that, very little data had been collected

beyond simply the publicly funded bed counts.

The ministry receives reporting and evaluation. There is work that’s underway and

planned on some of our key investments, and that includes the Canadian Mental Health

Association bed grants program, Road to Recovery, recovery community centres and the

new opioid treatment access line.

Specifically on Road to Recovery, there is an evaluation that the province is funding

right now that’s taking place that specifically follows a cohort of people through,

and I think addressing, maybe, some of the questions the member has. It’s important

to be able to do that to have a better understanding of how people move through the

system.

Again, we canvassed two days ago talking about the importance of Road to Recovery

as being a system of care that can, within one day, medically assess a person and

be able to put them into the right level or type of treatment that the person is ready

for, which may or may not be bed-based.

Those data coming out of the evaluation will really help to inform future decisions

that are made around funding and the models of care, again, as part of the evidence-based

work that needs to take place so that we know that we are able to do the very best

we can for people who are experiencing substance use issues and who are seeking treatment

and, ultimately, seeking recovery.

Also, I want to just comment how important the work is to continue to destigmatize

substance use issues, mental health issues and, even in the nature of this kind of

research, being able to work with clients and people, service providers, to gain really

critical information, and that work to destigmatize these conversations, even.

Even being able to have what I think here is a very reasonable and respectful conversation

taking place in estimates and talking about some of the questions that the members

opposite have and what government is doing to serve people is an important part of

this. I really thank the member for that.

Again coming back to the fact that these data are incredibly important. This work

is very important and will truly help to inform decisions, not only that we’re making

here in B.C. but ultimately — as the people undertaking this evaluation surely will

publish their results in scientific journals, for example — that it will be available

to other jurisdictions through Canada and around the world.

Claire Rattée : Given that I do agree with the minister that this is incredibly important work and

that destigmatizing is very important, anecdotally, when I speak to people that are

struggling with addiction right now, they feel as if this has been actually more stigmatized

than ever, given that much of the public is frustrated and fed up with the state that

many of our streets are in.

I think this is more important now than ever — that we actually have these data points

so that we can make sure we’re making evidence-based decisions when it comes to funding.

[1:40 p.m.]

I’m curious, because it wasn’t completely clear in that response. Is this work that

the ministry is undertaking, and if so, when can we expect to have those data points

and have a report available?

Hon. Josie Osborne : The evaluation work that’s underway right now for Road to Recovery is being led by

an independent team of researchers, and that team is being led by Dr. Seonaid Nolan

from Providence Health Care. It’s important that this work happens independent of

government, of course, and that they follow the rigour that needs to be done in a

longitudinal study of this nature.

How this works is enrolling a cohort, a group of people, and then following them through

time. I can’t give a specific date that the independent research will be completed

and published. These types of studies do take time, but I know how important it is

to continue to publicly report on wait times. Despite the fact that this research

will take some time, we remain committed to publishing those wait times, and we’ve

talked about some of them here in estimates, for example.

I also would love to draw the member’s attention to a report that we just released

last week, a m ental health and substance use March 2025 snapshot . It is full of data publicly reporting on all kinds of aspects of the mental health

and substance use treatment and recovery system and more, and affirms again our commitment

to that kind of transparency so that all British Columbians know about the services

and their effectiveness.

Then ultimately, as the Road to Recovery evaluation is completed and published, of

course, once again we’ll have some very good and solid evidence to be able to continue

to make these evidence-based and informed decisions.

[1:45 p.m.]

Claire Rattée : My colleagues and I have heard from a number of different groups and organizations

throughout the province that have applied for provincial funding to run 90-day programs,

and they have been told repeatedly that this ministry does not fund 90-day programs.

I’m curious if the minister can point to the policy that helps to inform those decisions

and how that is actually the process by which that goes when making the decision whether

or not to fund these programs.

Hon. Garry Begg : I would like to…

The Chair : You need to seek leave for an introduction.

Hon. Garry Begg : …sorry, make an introduction, please.

Leave granted.

Introductions by Members

Hon. Garry Begg : I would like to take this opportunity to welcome some elementary school students

from my home.

Lena Shaw Elementary School is here today with their teacher, Yena Shin. There are

38 people in her class, from grade 7 to grade 8.

Welcome to the Legislature.

Debate Continued

Hon. Josie Osborne : Just before I address the member’s question, I want to also welcome the class here

and take a small moment to explain what’s going on.

I’m B.C.’s Minister of Health, and the member opposite me, for Skeena, is the critic

for Mental Health and Addictions. She is asking me questions about the budget for

my ministry, and I am answering them, so you will see lots of back and forth.

Welcome to the class.

Okay, so thank you again to the member for the question around inquiries from potential

service operators or potential service providers in providing treatment and recovery

services.

[1:50 p.m.]

I want, first, to start off by reaffirming the commitment that we have to ramping

up services as quickly as possible. We do that in partnership with the health authorities

and Canadian Mental Health Association, for example, in Indigenous communities.

Of course, it’s very important that we follow established processes. We want to always

ensure that services are safe and high quality for people and that we’re investing

in services in ways that are fair and transparent.

That means that we ensure that the services invested in are licensed and registered

under the relevant legislation so we know that health and safety requirements are

met, for example. Maintaining high standards to ensure that they align with best practices

and regulatory requirements, provincial service standards…. Health authorities and

funding partners are required to follow consistent processes so that contracts that

are undertaken and awarded are done so in a way that is open and transparent in their

procurement and granting processes.

I will also note that we know that not all services want or apply for public funding,

although the member is speaking specifically about services that are applying. We

have extended funding opportunities to both for-profit and not-for-profit service

providers. I know that not all private facilities choose to participate in publicly

funded application opportunities, but the member, I think, is referring to some that

have tried to do so.

Hopefully, my answer will help elucidate a little bit of the rationale and the reasoning

behind ensuring that government’s legislative requirements, regulations and standards

are met.

Claire Rattée : What I will do is put together a list over the next couple of weeks with my colleagues

of some of the different facilities that have applied for funding that hasn’t been

granted, and I’ll provide that to the minister, if that’s all right, to get a follow-up

on why they were not approved.

I would first like to read out a quote by the minister: “I can confirm that the province

does provide funding to different faith-based organizations. The Salvation Army, I

think, is a perfect example of that. They provide at least 40 treatment beds.” The

minister, April 1, 2025, through Hansard .

Minister, you confirmed that the ministry is funding faith-based…. However, funding

by the Ministry of Health for the Salvation Army is absent in the public accounts.

I am hoping that the minister can please provide a list of faith-based organizations

in B.C. that are funded by the Health Ministry.

Hon. Josie Osborne : I’d like to take the member’s question on notice so that I can provide information

to her.

Also, in case this is part of the source of information that she is looking at, we

don’t list every provider in the Ministry of Health’s public accounts. Health authorities

have their own public accounts where providers are also listed where they’re contracting

directly to different service providers. But we’ll provide that explanation in that

list and get that to the member.

Claire Rattée : I would hope that I could get a timeline on when that would be provided. At this

point, unfortunately, I have to assume that if they aren’t listed in the public accounts,

that means that there’s not very much funding that’s being allocated to them, given

that a number of other organizations that we spoke about the other day are listed.

[1:55 p.m.]

I would hope that I could get a timeline on that.

My next question would be: what funding is being allocated right now to wraparound

recovery supports, such as transitional and second-stage housing, employment services,

mental health counselling, etc., for people that are leaving treatment?

[2:00 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : I’ll begin by saying that I think the member brings up a really important point.

That is, it’s really important to make sure that people are not disconnected from

care as they move through the system and that there are key points of transition where

gaps and vulnerabilities exist.

That’s why we have been working so hard to develop a seamless continuum of care, and

Road to Recovery is the shining example, I think, of that. Through the Road to Recovery

program…. It is designed in a way to ensure that people don’t fall through those gaps.

It is a little tricky to answer the question specifically, in the sense that there

are multiple ministries that are involved in providing transitional supports and aftercare

and recovery.

I’m going to talk a little bit about the work that Health does, and I’ll talk a little

bit about the funding and the investments that have been provided into that.

Then I would also suggest that the member take a similar question through to Social

Development and Poverty Reduction, for example, in talking about work skills and employment,

résumé building, those kinds of services that are provided; as well as the Housing

and Municipal Affairs Ministry. Through some of their work in supportive housing,

they also provide some of these wraparound supports that people need.

With respect to transitional supports, I think a really good example is the community

transition teams that are in place to support individuals who have opioid use disorder,

to help them transition safely, for example, from provincial correctional facilities

into community services. Now, every budget adds funding into these programs, different

amounts in different years, and then cumulatively, they are applied.

So here we are in the year 2025, but previous fiscal plans…. Some of the money from

that will be used. Then, for certain programs and services, as we canvassed earlier

this week, there’s new money that’s added through this year’s budget. Back in Budget

2021, there was support for the expansion of the community transition teams applied,

adding five new teams, in fact.

[2:05 p.m.]

As of October 2023, there is a community transition team at each of the ten provincial

correctional centres. That means that clients across British Columbia are being served.

An interesting statistic, perhaps: in the first two quarters of the last fiscal, the

community transition teams reported 877 unique clients. They are served with a median

wait time of 5½ days. So these services are really important for those individuals

as they make that transition out into the community — again, a really important part

of ensuring that people are not falling through the cracks or falling through and

experiencing relapses, for example.

We know that recovery doesn’t end when you leave a facility, and I think this is the

point that the member is making. It’s important that long-term supports are there

for people. Long-term supports are being expanded in every health region, with new

aftercare clinicians and recovery community centres.

Recovery community centres provide low-barrier and community-based supports beyond

a clinical setting, so something that is more comfortable for people to engage in

and to be a part of. These centres provide some really important services — for example,

one-to-one support groups, education and learning opportunities, health and wellness

activities.

Currently there are three recovery community centres that are operating in Vancouver

Coastal — in Vancouver, on the North Shore and on the Sunshine Coast. There are four

more in the planning stages. That’s an additional recovery community centre for each

health authority. In addition, back in Budget 2023, resources were applied to ensure

that 40 aftercare clinicians were hired and are serving clients, and then that continues

to today.

Again, it’s difficult sometimes, I know, to read the budget and see the larger envelopes

and tease out exactly where every dollar is going into what program, into what delivery

item. We talk in some of the bigger numbers, knowing that services are embedded through

programs like Road to Recovery, for example. So again, the sort of shingling of budgets

and the addition of funds each year to programs like Road to Recovery are a really

important part of being able to expand these kinds of services.

That’s exactly what we will continue to do. I hope that helps to shine a little light

into the really important services that the member is highlighting.

Claire Rattée : I’m surprised by how opaque that answer is given the amount of time it took the minister

to confer with staff. I’ll focus on one piece of that response, because I think it’s

the only one that had any substantial weight to it, and that was the transition teams

for correctional facilities.

I’m curious when that was implemented, because about three weeks ago, while I was

out doing outreach work on Pandora, I spoke to a man that had just been released from

a correctional facility. He had been in prison for about three years, if memory serves,

and when he was released, he said he was given absolutely no follow-through care whatsoever.

He begged and asked for help. Nobody provided it to him.

He found his way back out onto Pandora street because his sister, who is also an addict,

was living out there. And now he has fallen back into addiction. He said he asked

about options for training so that he could get into a trade. He asked about supportive

housing. He asked for a number of different services, and none were provided to him.

He was dumped back out on the street and found his way back down onto Pandora, and

now he is back in active addiction, and he is embarrassed. He begged for support and

didn’t get it.

I would be interested to know when that was actually implemented, because this man

in particular certainly didn’t receive that service.

After the minister has responded to the question, if it’s okay with you, Chair, I’m

going to give a bit of my time to my colleague from Surrey–White Rock.

[2:10 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : Just before I address the member’s question, she’s pointed out several times about

the length of time that it takes to get answers, and I want to address that directly.

These are estimates that are taking place where I am always going to do my best to

give the best answer that I can, and the information, to the members opposite. I take

it seriously. We’re doing it respectfully, and I really appreciate that.

It takes a little time. I’m 4½ months on the job, and I know that the member is new

too. I would just ask that there be some understanding about the process and the way

that it goes. There’s nothing intentional about the length of time that it takes to

answer a question. We’re always going to do our best.

I’m really glad that the member made that outreach with the individual, and I want

to say thank you for the information. I would like to do anything we can to facilitate

a better connection with that individual. If the member has any way of enabling us

to be able to reach that person, then we can help to facilitate the connection as

best we can in working with the health authority and ensuring he’s receiving the services

that he needs and is asking for.

I had spoken about the community transition teams. For a long time, we had five of

those teams. In 2023, the budget allowed us to expand it to ten, meaning that there

is one attached to every provincial correctional centre. Now, I don’t know if the

individual that the member is referring to was at a provincial centre or not, but

that could be one important detail.

Also, that engagement is voluntary. Now, I note that the member told that the person

was actively seeking, and the voluntary nature of that is part of it. We don’t want

anybody to experience that kind of situation, and we don’t want any door to be the

wrong door.

[2:15 p.m.]

Again, I thank the member for the question and would also invite her to, through the

estimates for Social Development and Poverty Reduction, query around the community

integration specialists that that ministry has stood up and provided.

This is a major enhancement to this kind of work and, I think, an example of a really

important investment that our government has made in being able to work directly with

people on all kinds of aspects, not just mental health and substance use supports

but housing and life skills training.

I know that the minister responsible for that would have a lot more to say about it.

Trevor Halford : I want to thank my colleagues, actually, for allowing me a little bit of time here.

It’s no surprise that in the last number of years, but definitely in the last month,

we’ve seen tremendous upheaval at Fraser Health at an executive level. It’s been going

on for quite a time, and I think my caucus has been quite vocal on some of the challenges

that we’ve seen here.

I’ve got some very, I think…. You know, they may be…. I don’t think they’re overly

complicated questions. They’re fairly direct, and I would like direct answers back.

We saw the press release coming out, I believe it was February 19, regarding Victoria

Lee, former CEO of Fraser Health Authority, at a time when we have seen Fraser Health

be in utter chaos.

My question to the minister is this. Was Victoria Lee dismissed from that position?

Hon. Josie Osborne : Welcome to the member. Good to see him here.

I’ll state what I have stated publicly before and what is in the press release: it

was a mutual decision of the board and Dr. Lee.

Trevor Halford : I’m going to try and figure out what the definition of a mutual decision is.

We’ve seen press releases go out from this government regarding the Premier’s chief

of staff: “It was a mutual decision.” And then we saw, I think, a very exorbitant

severance package. So on this case here, with Dr. Lee, when we were seeing 18-hour

wait times, children getting treated in portables for pediatric care and complete

upheaval with the front-line staff in terms of their trust with the executive at Fraser

Health….

Again I’m assuming, based on what the minister just said, that this was not a dismissal,

that Victoria Lee was going on to other things, but that that was her choice to do.

My question to the minister: was that a decision made in partnership with Mr. Sinclair,

who is serving as chair of Fraser Health, or was the minister involved in any part

of what she’s defining as a mutual decision?

Hon. Josie Osborne : This decision was made by the board. It is their responsibility and authority to

do so, as the CEO of a health authority is an employee of the board.

[2:20 p.m.]

As an HR matter of the board, it was a board’s press release. There’s very little

more that I could say about that, except…. What I can say is I know that Fraser Health’s

policies are consistent with federal and provincial legislation around labour, and

as canvassed earlier today during question period, these are matters that are subject

to those laws and to the contract terms that the board had with their CEO.

Trevor Halford : So prior to the release going out on February 19…. My question is to the minister.

Did the minister — not the minister’s office, not the deputy minister, the minister

herself — have any say or any knowledge that Victoria Lee was going to mutually agree

to part ways on February 19?

Hon. Josie Osborne : I was informed in advance of the press release going out that the board and Dr. Lee

had arrived at the decision mutually to part ways.

Trevor Halford : Is the minister wanting this House to believe that she was just informed by Fraser

Health, whether it was by the chair or the board, that they had independently decided

to mutually part ways with their CEO without any direction from the minister whatsoever?

The minister was just informed. That’s all the minister’s involvement here was, just

to be informed of this board’s decision to mutually part ways with Victoria Lee? Is

that correct? Is that the statement the minister just made? She had no prior knowledge

or input. She was just informed prior to the release going out that this decision

had been made.

Hon. Josie Osborne : The member is correct. I was informed about the decision in advance of the press

release going out.

And that’s repeating the last question. I think we’re having the same discussion here,

and I look forward to getting back to the matters of the budget.

Trevor Halford : We’re going to get to the matters of the budget. I just want a clear answer here.

Just to confirm, the minister had no input — no input. The minister’s office, the

deputy minister…. Nobody except the board of Fraser Health had any input whatsoever.

That’s what the minister is saying in this House today on the departure of Victoria

Lee, who has overseen the biggest growth in the Fraser Health at a time where it’s

utter chaos.

The minister is saying that she was just told that a press release was going to be

going out on February 19 that, starting immediately, Victoria Lee is no longer CEO.

That is the level of involvement that the Minister of Health had on this decision.

Is that what the minister is saying right now?

[2:25 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : I would say that this has been asked and answered, and the minister does not make

those decisions. The health authority makes those decisions about their employee.

It is their authority and responsibility to do so. I look forward to getting back

to matters pertaining to the budget.

Trevor Halford : That’s a pretty astonishing answer, and it leads me to another question.

About two weeks ago we saw the immediate departure and retirement of NDP-appointed

Jim Sinclair. When I asked this minister in this House if Mr. Sinclair had the confidence

of the minister — I asked her twice — it was a complete avoidance of the question.

We’ll get back to Victoria Lee in a second, but with the sudden retirement of Mr.

Sinclair, who was chair of the Fraser Health board, is that again something the minister

had no idea about, maybe an hour or two hours prior to an email going out?

The minister had no idea about Victoria Lee’s departure; it was a decision made independently

by the board. So I’m assuming the minister has no say then, whatsoever, about who

is coming in as an interim CEO of the board — the minister has abdicated from that,

based on her answer — or about who is going to be the new incoming chair, given the

sudden departure of Mr. Sinclair.

Again, when it comes to Mr. Sinclair’s departure, did the minister not know? Was that

something that was made independently, by the board or by Mr. Sinclair, that she was

just informed of prior to the email going out, or does she have any oversight in what

is going on with the executives of Fraser Health?

Hon. Josie Osborne : I think, perhaps, the member does not understand how the board appointments are made.

They are done through ministerial orders. These are signed, these are published online,

and they are available for public viewing. If the member took the time to look that

up, he would see clearly that Mr. Sinclair was appointed chair and that the term ended

December 31.

As I have stated publicly, I asked him to stay on for a further three months because

I wanted his help in the transition that I knew was going to eventually happen, especially

at a time of being a new minister. So I made a three-month appointment. Mr. Sinclair’s

term was extended, as chair, to March 31. I knew, and he knew, that his term would

end then.

Since then, and I thank him for his service, Opreet Kang has been appointed. Having

been the vice-chair, she is coming in for the chair. I have appointed her for one

year as the interim chair while Fraser Health goes through a transition in searching

for a new CEO.

Of course, I expect the chair, the board, to have their full attention on that matter

and to continue to do the work that is expected of the health authority.

Trevor Halford : I think we’re seeing a complete lack of accountability — we’ll get to the transparency

part — in terms of oversight. I think this is one of the biggest challenges that we’ve

seen at Fraser Health.

The minister is entirely correct. They appoint the board. They do. They appoint the

board chair. I think that’s one of the major problems we’ve had.

[2:30 p.m.]

It’s nothing personal against Mr. Sinclair, but he has overseen some of the worst

outcomes in the history of Fraser Health. We don’t need to canvass that; my colleagues

will do that later on. But even the fact that the minister extended them on past December

is pretty galling.

Going back to Ms. Lee, the fact is…. We will get to a budget question right now. If it’s a mutual decision

to part ways, then can the minister please confirm whether or not Victoria Lee got

a severance package?

Hon. Josie Osborne : We’ll have a little QP déjà vu moment. I think this has been answered.

The severance that Dr. Lee may receive is a matter between her and the board. It’ll

be subject to provincial labour laws and the terms of her contract. And then, as per

any severance package in a case like this, subject to the rules that are in place,

it will be publicly disclosed.

Trevor Halford : It wouldn’t be déjà vu if we got an answer, right?

My questions to the minister at question period today and even right now in estimates

are pretty direct. They’re not these gotcha moments. They’re just factual questions.

Every single one of them has been just a yes-or-no question. The minister is choosing

not to give the answers, not me. I’m giving the questions. She is making that choice.

Again, when it comes to the severance of Ms. Lee, who mutually agreed to part ways,

we are hearing from sources within Fraser Health of what those numbers may or may

not be, and they’re pretty big.

This opportunity for the minister today is: what is the total severance package that

Ms. Lee got on her mutually agreed departure on February 19?

Hon. Josie Osborne : This question has been asked and answered.

The Chair : Member, you may not like the answer, but the minister has indicated that she has

answered the question. Would you care to reframe?

Trevor Halford : Okay, let me reframe the question then.

Can the minister give a numerical number — not a comment, a numerical number — to

the severance that Ms. Lee was provided?

Hon. Josie Osborne : This is a matter between the board and their employee. Period.

The Chair : Member, the question has been answered. Do you have another question?

Trevor Halford : These are budgetary estimates for the Ministry of Health. Any severance that comes

out to Ms. Lee, I would presume would be from the Ministry of Health. Unless I should

be talking to the Minister of Tourism or the Minister of Transportation, I would think

that those are budgetary questions.

We are talking about numerical questions. We are talking about severance to the CEO

of Fraser Health. That is a budgetary question. It’s probably a very inconvenient

question, but it is still a budgetary question that should be easily answered.

Again, my question to the minister is: why is she choosing to hide that number, and

can she table that today?

[2:35 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : When the number is public, it will be made public. It’s a budgetary matter, yes,

and it will be revealed, but I cannot provide in advance a number that I do not know

right now.

This is a matter between the board and Dr. Lee, and when…. At a time that they are

required to disclose that, they will disclose that. And then we will all in this House

know, as will the public, what the number is.

The Chair : This exchange is becoming repetitive. I invite the member to pursue a new line of

questioning.

Peter Milobar : Again, we’ve heard anywhere in the million-plus range for severance. It’s not a small

sum of money, even within health care provisioning.

Why it matters is that I think the public would be interested to know if the minister

has even asked or bothered to inquire to Fraser Health as to the status of what a

severance payout may look like. Because $1 million plus, as we just heard in this

chamber the other day….

We had the volunteer air ambulance out of the Kootenays needing $250,000. One would

assume that may have been funded out of Interior Health, so that would be a health

authority budget that is overseen by the provincial government. If it wasn’t out of

Interior Health, it’s still overseen by this minister. She’s the one that made the

announcement that they got their $250,000.

Fraser Health undoubtedly has other agencies and other people that are in need of

funding that Fraser Health would fund. One would hope that given there’s a shortage

of these types of programs out there and funding for programs that health authorities

actually fund, the minister, given the level of public interest in this situation,

might have reached out to Fraser Health to find out just what the heck was going on

within the budget of Fraser Health, which ultimately the minister oversees.

Has the minister asked Fraser Health what the status of the severance is and whether

or not severance will be paid, given that it was a mutual parting of the ways, not

a firing?

[2:40 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : The member and the member previous have both cited information or allegations about

what they are hearing with respect to a severance package, but I think what’s really

important here is to respect the integrity of the process. That process takes place

between the board and its employee, and it’s important that we be responsible and

respectful in those terms.

The members understand that when the severance number becomes public, it will be disclosed,

and the public will see.

Peter Milobar : I didn’t ask the minister to disclose a number. I asked the minister if she had inquired

of Fraser Health Authority if a severance was going to be paid, given that there’s

a lot of public interest and the commentary was that there was a mutual parting of

the ways, not a firing.

Why it’s important is that we have a budget document in front of us that is no longer

accurate. There is, at a minimum, $1.8 billion of spending that is unaccounted for,

given that there’s a reduction of carbon tax revenues. The Finance Minister won’t

tell us what’s happening with that. The only answer the Finance Minister will give

is that she’s instructed all of government to look at non-essential spending. In fact,

she said that, and that review is supposed to be under way even within the current

fiscal plan.

One would assume that non-essential spending would include…. A minister who’s supposed

to be looking for efficiencies of non-front-line services and is responsible for —

what? — 40 percent of the overall budget of B.C. might make an inquiry to ensure that

large severance payouts aren’t going to be going out if, in fact, it was a parting

of mutual ways and not a firing.

Again, has the minister made any inquiries to Fraser Health…? I’m not asking for the

dollar figure. I’m asking if the minister, who is supposed to be looking for efficiencies

of non-essential things within the Health budget, has made any inquiries to Fraser

Health, especially given the amount of public scrutiny on this, as to whether or not

a severance will be paid or if, in fact, it was truly a parting of the ways by mutual

agreement.

Hon. Josie Osborne : Thank you to the member for the question.

I’m going to respect the integrity of the process at hand. If any severance is applied

and becomes public, it will be publicly disclosed.

Trevor Halford : This is a question just directed to the minister, not the minister’s staff, not the

office, not Fraser Health. To the minister that’s sitting here today, does she know

the figure of severance that Victoria Lee was paid?

Hon. Josie Osborne : Again, as I said previously, I can’t cite a figure that I don’t know. When it becomes

public, it’ll be publicly disclosed. Asked and answered.

Trevor Halford : Okay, so in the last 45 minutes here, here’s what we’ve figured out.

The minister is not aware when executive changes happen at Fraser Health. When the

CEO of Fraser Health either decides or is told — we can’t figure that out — that they’re

no longer required there, the minister has no idea, just somehow is contacted before

a release goes out and has probably no say on the interim CEO that’s coming in. That’s

what the minister has communicated today.

We’re here discussing the Ministry of Health budgetary estimates. I am assuming, unless

I’m told I’m incorrect, when severance is paid, it’s coming out of that minister’s

budget. But the minister said: “I have no idea if severance has been paid. I don’t

know the amount of severance that’s been paid. I don’t know why severance would be

paid. I didn’t even know that Victoria Lee was leaving until I was told that a press

release was going out.” That’s the level of detail, that’s the responsibility, that’s

the authority that the minister has just illustrated in this House.

[2:45 p.m.]

We’ve seen the chaos that we’ve been embarking on with Fraser Health over the last

number of years, over the last few months. It has been extraordinary, not in a good

way. And the minister is going to talk about and hide behind a process that needs

to be respected. The taxpayers of British Columbia, the people that utilize Fraser

Health, need to be respected. Front-line workers need to be respected.

Part of the reason I have been on this for month after month about Victoria Lee and

Jim Sinclair is because those front-line workers have all come and said they’re not

respected by this leadership. That’s a huge, huge problem. I know the minister has

been told directly by me, by probably other front-line workers, that there is a huge

credibility issue right now.

I get that those two individuals are no longer there, but we still have to respect

the taxpayer. So if the minister does not know the severance number, if the minister

doesn’t even know if severance was given, but there is a process underway…. I’m not

going to stop on this, because at some point, we have to get a number.

My question to the minister is: when can she commit to providing British Columbians

with the exact number of severance that Dr. Lee was provided?

Hon. Josie Osborne : I’ll start off by saying that I completely disagree with the member’s characterization

of the issue and the events that are taking place. The member speaks about taxpayers

needing to be respected.

Yes, the member is right. Employees need to be respected as well. That’s why there

are processes in place around hiring, around remuneration and severance. That’s why

it’s important to treat all employees, those who are providing a public service, serving

British Columbians to the best of their abilities, with dignity and respect.

I am not going to stand in this chamber and accept that we are going to speak about

employees in this way. What I am going to do is continue my work as the Minister of

Health to do everything that I can to strengthen and build B.C.’s health care system.

My focus each and every single day is on British Columbians, providing the best service,

the best value for money and ensuring that they get the health care that they deserve.

I’d like to do that work with all members of the House.

I think this line of questioning is bordering on inappropriate, and it is veering

far away from the matters at hand around the budget. A lot of what the members are

asking about is outlined in terms of the governance and authorities of the health

authorities, and if the member would like, I’d be happy to arrange a briefing on the

Health Authorities Act so that he can better understand what those responsibilities

are.

The Chair : You have pursued this line of questioning, and the minister has indicated that she

has responded.

Do you have a new line of questioning, member for Surrey–White Rock?

Trevor Halford : Sure. Thank you, Madam Chair.

I appreciate the minister’s offer to walk me through the health authorities and the

act and the responsibilities of them. I think I have a pretty good comprehension of

that, but if not, then I’m always eager to learn more.

[2:50 p.m.]

Here’s why this is really important to me. When I hear from front-line worker after

front-line worker — today, yesterday, the day before that, continuous — about the

challenges, I don’t find it inappropriate. I actually find it’s our duty to come here

to this House and highlight that, because it is actually life or death. It is. The

minister may not agree with me on that, but incompetence at that level does cost lives.

It’s a fact.

Here’s one of the other issues too. While I find it a challenge, when you go to Peace

Arch Hospital…. Peace Arch Hospital is getting a new intensive care unit. I think

that’s amazing, because the current one is almost unusable. If the minister has ever

toured it, she would know that. It’s unusable. It’s at a cost of around $38 million

to do this work.

Here’s why I’m asking about the severance provisions and why it’s important and why

it’s a budgetary matter. The minister will know this. It’s not a question. The Peace

Arch Hospital Foundation is putting in over $36 million to that project. The province

is putting in under $2 million. So when the minister is asked a question by CTV whether

or not Victoria Lee’s severance exceeded $1 million, which she was and she did not

deny, I have a real problem with that.

The minister can’t confirm when we will find out what this severance package is, but

we’re not going to stop until we get that number. If the province is contributing

less than $2 million to an ICU at one of the biggest-growing areas of this province,

that is an embarrassment, an absolute embarrassment.

If the minister is wondering why this line of questioning is happening and if it’s

inappropriate, I don’t really care. I’m not going to apologize for that because what’s

inappropriate is that people can’t even get a basic answer about somebody that was

fired almost two months ago and what that cost to the taxpayers is. It’s not hard

to find out.

The minister can talk about the responsibilities of a board, of a health authority.

At the end of the day, there are two people responsible for health care in this province.

It’s the minister, and it’s the Premier. That is the accountability — not the board,

not the health authority. The minister and the Premier, that is who is accountable

for health care in this province.

To not even be able to get a basic understanding of whether or not somebody as senior

as Victoria Lee was let go or what the severance provisions are…. Again, you compare

that to the fact that this province is putting in less than 5 percent of a capital

project as important as an ICU. That’s why this line of questioning matters.

Again, when can British Columbians expect an answer on Victoria Lee’s severance package

that we are hearing exceeded $1 million?

Hon. Josie Osborne : With all respect, the final question there was a question that has been asked, and

it is a question that I have answered.

I would appeal to you, Chair, for some guidance on the repetitious questions.

[2:55 p.m.]

The Chair : The question has been asked many times. The minister has stated she has answered.

I’ll ask if there’s a new line of questioning.

Claire Rattée : I’d like to take some time to talk about Red Fish Healing Centre. Red Fish Healing

Centre provides specialized care to meet the needs of individuals with serious and

persistent mental health or concurrent substance use concerns who have not been successfully

treated elsewhere. Since opening, Red Fish Healing Centre has been operating at 95

percent capacity and has experienced increased demand.

My question is: what does the minister plan to do about the increase in demand for

Red Fish Healing Centre? As part of the 2024 party platform of the NDP, the government

promised to build a second Red Fish Healing Centre and additional satellite facilities.

I’m hoping that the minister can give some more information on the details of the

project.

Will the minister commit to building a second Red Fish Healing Centre, or will it

be another broken promise? If yes, how much is it supposed to cost? Where will it

be located? Will it be a tier 5 facility? How many beds will it have, and when can

we expect to see it?

Hon. Josie Osborne : Thank you to the member for the question and quite rightly pointing out that since

it opened in 2021, the Red Fish Healing Centre has been operating at a 95 percent

capacity, and there is increased demand out there. I think that demonstrates just

how important it is.

The facility provides treatment for mental health and substance use issues together,

and research is showing that this can lead to better outcomes for people because of

the interrelationship between mental health and substance use.

Currently there’s an active site search that’s underway. The challenge here is finding

a site that is a place where we can safely care for this population and appropriately

staff it. We are working closely with Dr. Vigo, the chief scientific adviser, and

really looking for opportunities to co-locate the sites with future expansions for

Red Fish.

Because that active site search is underway, I can’t provide a specific time frame

right now. But I want to assure the member that that is the work that is undergoing

and we understand, I understand, just how important it is.

[3:00 p.m.]

Claire Rattée : Just to clarify, then, that was put in the platform in the promises of the 2024 campaign

without that work already being done, even though the NDP was in government and had

the ability to know whether or not that’s something that could actually happen. So

I’m assuming I don’t need to ask for a line item in the budget as to where this Red

Fish Healing Centre is, the second one, because it doesn’t exist.

My question then would be: will the minister allow the Red Fish Healing Centre to

operate above 100 percent capacity, since most of the hospitals in B.C. currently

do?

[Lorne Doerkson in the chair.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : I believe that funds actually are allocated, but I would direct the member to the

Ministry of Infrastructure because of the creation of that ministry, and that’s where

capital funds are now residing.

Again, just to reiterate that there’s an active site search that’s underway right

now, and there’s no intention to operate the existing centre over capacity.

Claire Rattée : I would like to give a bit of my time to my colleague from Courtenay-Comox, please.

Brennan Day : Thank you very much for being here this afternoon, Minister. It’s obviously lovely

to see you again on such short notice this time.

I’ll preface this question. I have a couple of questions just surrounding the union

negotiations that are going to be going on this year. I know that makes up a substantive

portion of your budget.

My first question is: how much is outlined in the provincial contingency fund for

the union negotiations related to health care?

If you could give me those figures broken down by each of the union negotiations that

you’ll be seeing through the rest of the year, it would be much appreciated.

[3:05 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : Apologies for the delay. We swapped out some staff.

Just to confirm what I already suspected, which is we can’t answer that question for

two reasons. First of all, we don’t have a mandate from PSEC yet. Then, second, the

contingencies…. This is actually a Finance appropriation. This would be a question

that would need to be asked to the Minister of Finance during her estimates. Sorry.

Brennan Day : Okay. Minister, I understand nursing and much of the health care staff is woefully

underfunded, and the wage growth that’s going to be requested is likely to be high

to get them up to parity with neighbouring jurisdictions.

We’re already at $10.9 billion in deficit. The last increase just for the public sector

employees in 2023 was 6.7 percent, and that cost the public purse $2.6 billion, which

would be more than half of the contingency fund in the budget.

I suppose, based on your response, I’ll ask the question a different way so we can

establish a baseline for everybody, including the nursing union. Going forward, what

impact is this going to have to the provincial budget?

I would like to establish what the current spending is proposed in this budget for

the BCNU; the Health Employers Association of B.C., HEU; BCGEU; Ambulance Paramedics

and Dispatchers; Resident Doctors. Then if the minister can, please, by each category,

let us know what the impact to the health budget would be for every percentage increase

across those unions.

[3:10 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : Thank you to the member for the question.

I cannot predict the outcome, nor should I, of bargaining that will take place this

year, but what I can provide the member with are some figures respecting what collective

agreements represent in the past, or current and past, so I’ll do that. I can’t do

it by union because that’s not the way agreements are structured. They are structured

through association, so I’m going to break it down that way.

For example, the Ambulance Paramedics and Ambulance Dispatchers Bargaining Association

collective agreement. The 2022–2025 collective agreement represents approximately

$456.7 million in annual expenditure.

The 2025 public sector compensation report estimates that the Community Bargaining

Association collective agreement represents approximately $1.355 billion in annual

expenditure.

The Facilities Bargaining Association collective agreement represents an estimated

$3.799 billion in annual expenditure.

The 2022–2025 Health Science Professionals Bargaining Association collective agreement

represents an estimated $2.527 billion in annual expenditure.

The Resident Doctors of B.C. collective agreement represents an approximate $159.1

million in annual expenditure.

The Nurses Bargaining Association collective agreement estimated expenditure in the

last fiscal, ’24-25, is an estimated $6.781 billion.

Brennan Day : Thank you very much for that.

Could you please just share with the room what the percentage increases over fiscal

’22-23 and ’23-24 are for those bargaining units?

I think there may have been a misunderstanding in my question. In the budget, it’s

broken down, and the assumptions are made that a 1 percent increase in overall wage

growth would lead to about a $500 million hit to the budget.

That’s the number I’m looking for that you guys are using as a rule of thumb in your

ministry in order to make decisions, broken down by unit if possible, but I can do

the math backwards if required if you need to do it as health care as a whole. It

would be much appreciated if you could share that information.

[3:15 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : I’ll answer the question around the mandate from the past. Again, I can’t speculate

on what’s going to take place, and I would direct the member…. Again, the questions

related to the PSEC mandate really belong in the Ministry of Finance.

But in the 2022 bargaining round, the shared recovery mandate, the highlights there

for the collective agreements are as follows.

There were general wage increases for all employees. April 1, 2022, it was 25 cents

per hour, and then a 3.24 percentage increase, an average wage increase of 4.24 percent.

April 1, 2023, it was 5.5 percent plus a 1.25 percent cost-of-living adjustment. And

April 1, 2024, it was 2.0 percent and up to 1 percent cost-of-living adjustment.

[3:20 p.m.]

Brennan Day : From the numbers you presented there…. We added them up. So just to confirm, rounding

up slightly, $14 billion is roughly the total payroll for Health currently. With that

number and the average increases we have seen over the last three years of 5.5 percent,

2 percent — I’m just looking generally here — 3.24 percent and the numbers you just

cited of 6.5 percent, with the average increase of 4.2 percent on several of those,

that would put a substantial dent in future budgets.

The quick math — obviously, I don’t have a calculator here in the House with me, although

we should put that into the budget for next year — would be about $100 million per

percentage point, $150 million per percentage increase in those negotiations. Can

you confirm if that number is close?

The Chair : Just a reminder to bring those through me, Member.

Hon. Josie Osborne : Thank you to the member for the question.

I don’t have a calculator here either, so I can’t confirm that. I can direct the member

to Finance for the specifics.

Brennan Day : Thank you for your time, Minister. If you do find a calculator and you could get

me that number, it would be great, just to fact-check so that we don’t have the wrong

figure on the record. It would be much appreciated.

Thank you again for your time. Have a great weekend.

I’m going to pass this back to my colleague, the member for Skeena.

Claire Rattée : I’d like to spend a bit of time talking about involuntary care now.

The two facilities that are opening in spring are in jails and corrections centres.

We’ve got Surrey Pretrial Centre, which has ten beds for people that require treatment

while in a correctional facility, and Alouette correctional facility in Maple Ridge,

which also has ten beds.

I would just like to know very clearly: is this what the Premier calls “full steam

ahead” on involuntary care?

[3:25 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : Thank you to the member for the question and the opportunity to talk about secure

care or involuntary care and why this government is taking the actions that we are.

Of course, I know the member understands that as the toxic drug crisis has changed

and evolved, we are grappling with a small but growing group of people who have extremely

complex needs, people who are experiencing severe mental health and substance use

issues and, for some, coupled with acquired brain injuries that come from repeated

overdoses.

A small number of these people are a risk to themselves and cannot make decisions

about their own care. That’s why back in June 2024, the Premier appointed Dr. Vigo

as B.C.’s first chief scientific adviser for psychiatry, toxic drugs and concurrent

disorders to work with partners to find a better way to support this growing population

of people. We are moving forward to implement the recommendations that Dr. Vigo has

provided around new involuntary services and care for this community.

The member speaks about two facilities, and I just want to correct for the record.

One of the facilities is as it was described, the beds that are opening at the Surrey

Pretrial Services Centre. There are ten beds there; that is correct. It’s a designated

mental health unit that will be operated by the Provincial Health Services Authority

and serves inmates who are experiencing these acute mental health and substance use

needs.

Additionally, there are 20 beds that will be part of Alouette homes. This is secure,

long-term residential support outside of Corrections. So this is not in a corrections

centre.

These beds will serve people who, again, are experiencing very severe and complex

mental health and substance use issues, often with acquired brain injury, and have

very high-risk behaviours — such high-risk behaviours that they are, in fact, pretty

much beyond tertiary care and what a tertiary care facility can provide. Again, it

is a very unique population and an important service to provide for these people.

Dr. Vigo continues to advise government on this program, and a search is underway

now for sites to expand, particularly in the North. As more information becomes available

for that, of course, that will become public.

We understand that these are services that are important to provide throughout different

parts of the province. That’s why the expansion will focus on the North but, ultimately,

around other areas of the province.

Claire Rattée : Currently how many inmates have substance use or mental health disorders?

[3:30 p.m. - 3:35 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : It’s estimated that about 70 percent of inmates in provincial correctional centres

have mental health and/or substance use issues. Again, I just want to emphasize that

that’s an estimate and that it’s provincial correctional centres.

Of course, it’s also important to note that the rise in the number of inmates experiencing

these problems really follows the toxic drug crisis and the complexity that’s being

seen there. These issues have arisen over time.

It’s also important to note that the involuntary care, the secure care of the kind

that Dr. Vigo has been advising government on and that we are taking action on in

establishing these first two designated facilities, doesn’t apply to that entire 70

percent, of course, of the provincial correctional centre population. In fact, it’s

a very, very small subset of inmates.

Again, these are people who are experiencing a really high degree of mental health

and substance use issues, acquired brain injuries, that result in behaviours that

are…. It would be inappropriate to leave people in a correctional centre without being

able to provide a better way of care, a better form of care for them.

What we will do with the Surrey Pretrial Centre…. Ten beds there, and seeing what

the service needs will look like for people and then learning from that.

Part of Dr. Vigo’s work…. He is still formulating the advice that he’s providing to

government. This was one of the first pieces that he recommended that we undertake,

establishing the Surrey Pretrial Centre.

As I have explained before too, I always think that it’s important to put it into

context that involuntary care of this nature, again, is for those people who have

concurrent disorders and are experiencing the kind of mental health and substance

use challenges, brain injuries, that make them a very complex group of people to be

able to provide care for. But it is an incredibly small subset of people, writ large,

and it does not take away at all from the work that our government continues to do

to build out a system of voluntary care.

That, throughout the entire continuum from prevention and mitigation to treatment,

recovery and aftercare…. Many of the things that we’ve been canvassing through estimates

remain a top priority for this government. I just wanted to take a few moments to

be able to set this work, this involuntary care work, in that larger context.

Again, we have talked about the number of publicly funded beds, the increase in investments

in those beds, the establishment of Road to Recovery, which I have had the opportunity

to visit myself and see firsthand just how meaningful that is to be able to provide

people with that same-day access to medical assessment, to immediately be able to

serve people by putting them into the right place of the spectrum of care that works

for them.

Seeing the work that Road to Recovery is doing, particularly serving Indigenous populations,

for example, with Indigenous liaisons and patient navigators that are helping to move

people through the system…. This is all part of doing everything we can to meet people

where they’re at and to acknowledge that treatment and recovery looks different for

everybody.

[3:40 p.m.]

Providing different models of care, establishing places where particularly vulnerable

populations feel safer and are able to access culturally appropriate supports, establishing

voluntary treatment centres and therapeutic recovery communities for women, for example,

or for Indigenous men…. Our government is committed to continuing this work.

Claire Rattée : Given that we know we have a serious epidemic right now of people with significant

permanent brain injury, mostly due to the issues around overdoses and the crisis we

find ourselves in with drugs right now, what plan does this government have to introduce

long-term facilities for people with significant, permanent brain injury?

I don’t believe that people with significant, permanent brain injury should always

be in a correctional facility. If we could intervene early enough for people that

we know will not be able to live normal lives out amongst the general public but that

still deserve a level of care that they’re not currently receiving…. That’s probably

the precursor, in many of these circumstances, to why they end up in a correctional

facility.

What plan is there in place for this government to actually be able to provide appropriate

care for people that are suffering like that and that will not be able to reintegrate

into society at any normal capacity?

[3:45 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : I want to answer the member’s question, essentially, around earlier intervention

and care and supports for people before they would enter a correctional facility.

We’re talking about the work that Dr. Vigo is advising government on. We’re talking

about involuntary or secure care. What we’re doing, though, is really building off

a specialized set of supports for people that already exists.

I want to talk a little bit about that work that health authorities do: providing

psychiatric treatment for people who are experiencing mental illness and concurrent

mental health and substance use disorders and the tertiary supports that people require

sometimes — something that is more intensive, more long-term specialized treatment

— and the assessment, treatment, psychosocial rehabilitation and recovery services

that people require.

There are currently 1,277 publicly funded tertiary beds in British Columbia. There

are 929 acute beds, 210 secure rooms, 29 quiet rooms and 20 observation rooms across

B.C. These are key things that are required to support people experiencing these issues.

Furthermore, I think it’s worth mentioning that as we build new facilities and new

hospitals, more of these beds are added.

Currently we are underway with modernizing about 280 outdated beds and adding 140

new beds there. Over time, of course, all of these beds will be expected to be operational.

Some are complete, and some are in the planning and construction phase.

[3:50 p.m.]

Another example of intervention that supports people and helps to keep people out

of correctional facilities are the ACT teams, assertive community treatment teams.

I want to take a moment to talk about that.

It’s a team-based outreach service delivery model that supports people, again, who

are facing these complex mental health and/or substance use challenges, a tertiary,

client-centred, recovery-oriented model of care that facilitates people living in

community and provides the supports, including psychosocial rehabilitation, for people

who are living, perhaps, in supportive housing, perhaps are unhoused in the community,

many of whom are under extended leave status under the Mental Health Act.

These ACT teams provide critical crisis assessment and intervention. They provide

housing support, psychiatric and psychological treatment, medication management, support

for substance use disorders, work-related services and family supports as well.

These teams have almost 13 FTEs associated with each one of them. They’re operated

by the health authorities, and they are intended to provide care 24 hours a day, seven

days a week. They have frequent contact with clients, and they use this integrated,

multidisciplinary approach I have been speaking about. We now, as of January 2025,

have 33 ACT teams that are managing a caseload of 1,741 clients currently.

Then, for those people whose mental health and substance use issues, the acquired

brain injuries, are so severe that they cannot live on their own, that they cannot

even be served by

an ACT team…. That is exactly why Alouette homes is being developed

and providing long-term homes for those people. It is the first long-term model that

we’ll have here in B.C.

I recall when we did the presser with Dr. Vigo, and he was asked, “Might somebody

live in a place like this for the rest of their life,” the answer is yes. Further,

he explained that this really is the humane thing to do, in terms of being able to

provide a level of care and support that these people have not accessed before and

simply cannot access on their own.

Again, we will continue to learn as this is built and as people move in and the services

provided are underway and take those learnings and be able to apply them across the

province and to help provide dignified care for more people here in British Columbia.

Claire Rattée : I would like to know specifically how many beds we can anticipate this year for this

compassionate long-term care for these people. I didn’t hear a specific number of

beds there. I would like to know how many we can expect to see open this year.

I would also like to know if the ministry has an estimate on how many people in British

Columbia are currently needing to access a service like this. I would assume it’s

a lot more than how many beds are going to be built, so I would like to have an idea

of how big of a gap we are still facing there.

[3:55 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : As previously discussed, ten beds at Surrey Pretrial and 20 beds at Alouette this

year. Then, as I explained, currently searching for the next site, and likely up north.

But I don’t want to pin a number on that yet because it will depend on the site and

the circumstances there.

The question around how many people…. I mean, this gets to the heart of some of the

work that Dr. Vigo is doing for government so that we have a much better understanding

of the number of individuals who are the very type that we’re talking about, who are

best provided with long-term care at a place like Alouette homes.

Dr. Vigo undertook a cohort study in 2023, and in that, he estimated that approximately

2,500 people in B.C. have this trifecta, these three concurrent disorders of mental

health, addiction and brain injury. But he’s been very, very clear that it is a much

smaller subset of those 2,500 people who exhibit the dangerous or violent and high-risk

behaviours that we were talking about, the exact population of people we were talking

about where a long-term home like Alouette will be the place to be.

Again, Dr. Vigo is continuing to refine these numbers so that we can plan appropriately

for what is required to provide these services for people here in B.C.

Claire Rattée : I appreciate the clarity. I look forward to finding out when those nearly 2,500 British

Columbians that are currently suffering, that don’t have a long-term place to call

home where they’re going to receive appropriate and compassionate care…. I look forward

to finding out when this government has a plan to be able to effectively house those

people and to provide them with the care that they deserve.

I would like to just quickly read in a correction on behalf of my colleague. When

he was trying to do the math earlier on something, he didn’t have a calculator handy.

On the low end, it would be $15 billion, and on the high end, it would be $20 billion

for health care salaries. The actual figure is nearly $180 million per 1 percent increase,

now that we’ve been able to do the math.

With that, I’m going to give a little bit of my time to my colleague here from Richmond-Queensborough.

[4:00 p.m.]

Steve Kooner : Currently the NDP government houses untreated drug-addicted homeless people with

non-drug-addicted homeless people in Richmond, such as at the Alderbridge temporary

modular housing site in Richmond. Having untreated drug addicts living in housing

projects with non-addicts causes public safety issues inside and outside these types

of housing projects in Richmond.

My question is: will this NDP provincial government stop combining these two populations

in housing projects together in Richmond?

Hon. Josie Osborne : I’m going to ask the member if he could just clarify a little bit more for me. What

I’m trying to tease out is the part of an answer that is services the Health Ministry

provides and the part that the Housing Ministry would provide.

Is he referring specifically to supportive housing and managing issues between people

who are in active recovery and people who use drugs? If I could, sorry, just ask him

to clarify that again, please.

Steve Kooner : In regards to clarification, I was referring to supportive housing, so-called supportive

housing. Many would agree it’s not supportive housing because there’s no actual treatment

being performed in that particular housing.

[4:05 p.m.]

Yet there are people in need of treatment, that are not getting treatment, that are

being housed with people from the general population. I hope that clarification helps.

Hon. Josie Osborne : First of all, I just want to make a brief comment on the language we’re using in

the House when we’re talking about people who use substances or people who use drugs.

I think it’s really important to be respectful in the way that we talk about them

and understand that people are facing — for a variety of reasons, often to do with

their background and history — traumatic experiences that they’ve had, social determinants

of health, including lack of access to proper food and housing and supports, and that

it puts people in precarious situations. That’s why we need to treat people with dignity

and compassion as we establish this continuum of care.

The member is asking around supportive housing, and I think also it’s important to

note that housing is absolutely critical for people in their journey to recovery and

that having a safe place to live creates more stability for a person, who may then

be better able to access the supports, including treatment and recovery.

[4:10 p.m.]

That’s why we’re working so hard to build out a system of care, of treatment and of

recovery. That’s why there are over 3,700 publicly funded beds for treatment and recovery

here in British Columbia, and we’re going to continue to do that work.

Part of the work, too, for people who are coming out of treatment is to be able to

support them in housing, whatever kind of housing they may be living in at that point.

There is a team of aftercare workers here in the province, and that includes Richmond.

That’s the kind of work that we’re going to continue to do.

Claire Rattée : I would just like to start by saying that I appreciate the minister’s comments on

that. I agree it’s very important, especially with the housing piece. You know, as

somebody that’s experienced that myself, I understand the importance of having access

to housing and safe and supportive housing. I really hope that the minister is working

closely with the Ministry of Housing to ensure that that work continues.

I’m going to switch gears a little bit here for a few moments to some regional questions,

specifically for my riding of Skeena.

I’m hoping that the minister can provide an update on the promised detox facility

for Terrace, such as the timeline, budget and service model. This is something that’s

been promised many times over the years.

I would also like to know if the ministry will commit to funding long-term recovery

beds in Skeena in the ’25-26 fiscal year.

[4:15 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : Thank you to the member for the question.

To talk about some of the really important work that’s happening in Terrace and the

surrounding areas, I just want to acknowledge, too, that Terrace is a place that has

experienced some of the highest rates of illicit drug toxicity deaths and how that’s

devastating for a community.

We’ve talked about this, too, through estimates: the need for more access for people

who are living in the North to the full suite of services and programs available for

people, the need and the barriers, frankly, that people face when they live in more

remote and rural communities, as they do in the northwest.

What I want to do is give an update specific to the question the member asked and

then also just add some more information about what is happening up in northwest British

Columbia.

The Road to Recovery expansion, which we talked about earlier in the week. The first

priority for expansion of this program is in the North, and this includes funding.

That funding is in the budget. It’s part of the expansion in this year’s budget for

the Access Central line — that essential line, that same-day line — that helps people

access the medical assessment that they need. That includes funding for new withdrawal

management beds.

The site search is underway for a site for those beds. In the interim, there are three

publicly funded beds dedicated to people from the northwest. They’re available at

Cedars Recovery, and they offer withdrawal management and treatment. Given the success

of this model, two additional beds are being funded as of April 1, for a total of

five publicly funded beds that are dedicated for people from the northwest.

Further, we’ve been working in collaboration with the Northern First Nations Alliance,

the First Nations Health Authority and the Northern Health Authority to address that

need that I spoke of a few answers ago, the need that Indigenous people, First Nations,

have for culturally safe treatment and recovery services, including detox or withdrawal

management.

The Northern First Nations Alliance is again working in this partnership to explore

culturally safe addiction supports in Terrace and the surrounding region. We have

communicated with them and expressed that we will provide financial support for their

project. We’re still determining the exact details there. They’re working to establish

a permanent treatment facility. In the meantime, they will contract two beds for a

year of service at Road to Recovery.

This speaks, again, to the need for people to have access as close to home as possible

and part of our commitment in the expansion of Road to Recovery, part of our commitment

to the expansion of a voluntary system of care that meets people where they’re at

and physically where they’re at, geographically where they’re at in the province.

Claire Rattée : For clarity, that means that as of right now, we do not have a plan to open up treatment

— not withdrawal management, treatment beds — in the Skeena region within this fiscal

year. I understand what the minister mentioned about doing the work to find a site.

[4:20 p.m.]

But given the comments by the minister already, which are very accurate, that Terrace

experiences one of the highest rates in the province of overdose deaths; given the

fact that Indigenous people in the North are nearly six times more likely to die from

an overdose; and given the fact that I think we have clearly seen evidence that sending

people into detox or withdrawal management without the follow-up care that’s required

of going to treatment, whatever form that may take, to do the work on their mental

health to ensure that they are in a place where they are going to be able to successfully

reintegrate into society….

I’m curious what the minister’s plans are, in a general sense, if we are now going

to be opening up withdrawal management beds in the Skeena region without that follow-up

care. There are significant barriers for people living in Skeena if they need to travel

to be able to access that care.

Again, because of the incredibly high rates of death among Indigenous populations

and the fact that there are groups already in my riding that have expressed interest

in opening up culturally appropriate land-based healing centres…. They have the land,

so it is not required to look for land. They have asked for the funding, and it hasn’t

been promised and hasn’t been given.

I’m wondering what the ministry’s plan is, then, to basically approach that problem.

I have a lot of concern about withdrawal management beds being opened up in my riding

without access that is equitable, that is close by to home, that’s available to people

for treatment services after they leave detox.

[4:25 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : I want to start first with the services that exist in Terrace, and I want to talk

about the initiative with the First Nations Health Authority, the Northern Health

Authority and the Northern First Nations Alliance. I think that it addresses exactly

what the member is speaking about.

First of all, as a current situation in the northwest region, there are 35 supportive

recovery beds, and 16 of those are new since 2017. There are also eight withdrawal

management beds. Of all of those beds, 13 are in Terrace, specifically 11 adult supportive

recovery and two adult withdrawal management, and three new beds in Terrace since

The need for Indigenous-led solutions is absolutely recognized by this government.

That’s why we have committed the funding and the support to the Northern First Nations

Alliance through this partnership with the First Nations Health Authority and the

Northern Health Authority to establish a medical withdrawal management facility, for

which I just explained the search is underway, and then knowing that a person cannot

leave that without having the opportunity to move into the culturally appropriate

treatment and recovery services.

Our commitment to them is that it be Indigenous-led. So we are working with them in

partnership but having them lead, as it should be. We have made that commitment to

do it.

Further, there’s also a commitment to invest in outpatient care, recognizing that

not everybody needs a bed when they come out of withdrawal management and that there

are other services and supports that can be provided to people to help them in treatment

and recovery that don’t necessarily need to be bed-based.

This, again, is part of the commitment to building the continuum of care. It is the

expansion of this Road to Recovery model that acknowledges that people need that quick

assessment and the ability to be put and placed into the part of the system that’s

going to work best for them.

I really want to assure the member that I hear her concerns and that the partnership

that I’ve explained here, we feel strongly, is the best way to be working with First

Nations and to allow for that Indigenous-led development of these kinds of services.

As the member rightly points out, the toxic drug crisis disproportionately impacts

Indigenous people. This is the best way forward, I think — to work deeply in partnership

in this way.

Claire Rattée : With respect to the minister, and I know that the minister is new to her role as

the Health Minister, this government has had nearly ten years to try and address this

issue.

It’s a big part of the reason why I got involved and why I’m in this House today,

because this is unacceptable, the way the North gets treated. We are critically and

severely underfunded when it comes to programs like this and funding like this. It’s

just unacceptable. I’m clearly not getting any kind of real commitments on that today,

so I will try again another time.

I’m going to move forward and ask if the minister can provide a detailed breakdown

of funding allocated to rural emergency rooms, specifically in Northern Health and

Skeena, as well as what portion of the budget will go toward addressing ER closures

in Kitimat and how the ministry defines “diversion” versus “closure” in its reporting,

especially given the fact that tomorrow the Kitimat ER is yet again going to be closed

for the entire day.

[Mable Elmore in the chair.]

I’m sure the minister is, hopefully, aware and has travelled to Kitimat before, but

there is one road in and one road out of Kitimat. Frequently that road is closed due

to a number of different issues, whether it’s serious accidents, weather events. This

leaves people living in Kitimat, every single time that this ER is closed, without

any option or anywhere to go.

I would really appreciate some clarification on what portion of the budget is going

towards addressing these issues.

[4:30 p.m. - 4:35 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : Before I switch to emergency room closures — I have a lot to add for this — I just

want to go back and say that this government, our government, has been here for about

7½ years. I know that often gets rounded up to ten, but I want to make it clear that

we inherited a system that had been underfunded for decades not just in mental health

and substance use but in every area of the social determinants of health, from housing

and disability allowances and every area that has made such a huge and deep impact

on people.

It has really resulted in a generation of people who’ve been struggling. Then the

pandemic hit, and we were literally trying to build an airplane while flying through

the worst storm possible. People were given — coming back to disability, for example

— no increases for ten years. No new supportive housing was built.

This really has caused a generation of people who have been struggling. That’s why

our government has made it a priority and invested millions and millions and millions

of dollars into building out a system of care for people, for people who are struggling

with mental health and substance use issues.

I understand and appreciate where the member is coming from, that it doesn’t feel

like enough. And I want to be clear about how much work has gone into this, and how

much catch-up we’ve had to do. I also want to reiterate for the record the very, very

deep commitment that this government has to continue doing that work.

I appreciate that I have a critic for Mental Health and Addictions, and I think this

is a constructive part of this relationship, between two groups of people who sit

opposite from each other in the House, and the work that we have to do.

Thank you for that.

Now, I want to switch to emergency department closures. Forgive me, because I need

to talk about this in the broader context, and I will get to Kitimat and the specific

community.

I come from a small rural community myself that is one road in and one road out and

can well imagine how destabilizing it feels for community members not to have that

24-7 access to emergency care that people have been used to having throughout their

lives.

[4:40 p.m.]

These interruptions go well beyond people even being able to access care that day,

that time. They’re having impacts on communities, in terms of being able to recruit

new residents and establish new businesses, because people want to know that health

care is there for them when they need it.

I want to talk a little bit about the work that we’re doing to address temporary emergency

department closures. I’ll just briefly address the language, too.

I think the best way to say it is it’s a temporary closure. That is what it is. It

is not a closure, but it is temporary in nature — often 12 hours, eight hours, sometimes

longer. When we use the word “diversion,” we’re referring to the fact that people

are diverted from one facility and going to somewhere else. But I think the word “diversion”

has multiple meanings for people and isn’t the best word to use. I’ll try to stick

to temporary closures.

In the short term, health authorities are doing everything that they can to try to

find staffing coverage for unfilled shifts. They ask physicians and nurses who live

in nearby communities. They ask people who are currently working part-time to come

in. But unfortunately, the global health care worker shortage that we’re experiencing

— the shortage of physicians and nurses that we have, like provinces across Canada

— and then a variety of reasons sometimes result in unanticipated staffing shortages,

like illnesses.

We saw a lot of closures this past March and acknowledge that’s generally a challenging

time for health authorities to ensure sufficient staff coverage because it coincides

with spring break vacations, and we all know that everybody deserves a vacation and

a break.

The decision to redirect patients to a nearby hospital, to temporarily close an emergency

department, is never made lightly. It’s always done as a last resort.

I mentioned that B.C. is not alone, and I think it’s worth reading into the record

what’s happening in other provinces too. So 2024 was the worst year for Ontario emergency

room closures. Emergency departments there were closed for 25,000 hours. In Alberta

in 2023, emergency departments were closed for 38,000 hours. Rural hospitals in Nova

Scotia and in Quebec are also seeing frequent closures.

Here in British Columbia in the past 12 months, we’ve had about 8,000 hours of unplanned

closures. I don’t say this to make light of having less than other provinces but to

say that we are experiencing the same challenges that other provinces are as well.

Also, staffing pressures are very often amplified at rural sites, where the staffing

pool is smaller and it’s more difficult to find people.

Now, that’s why we developed the health human resources strategy. Through this strategy,

we are beginning to make some significant progress in doing a better job of supporting

the public health care system. We have been adding more doctors, more health care

professionals, new education and training seats; taking actions to improve health

care worker retention through retention incentives, for example; really doing everything

we can to optimize the health care system to ensure that people here in B.C. have

reliable and predictable access to emergency care.

Recruitment efforts, particularly in rural and remote communities that face these

high-need vacancies, have needed extra supports, and we’ve been there to provide those

— relocation assistance through health authorities, rural retention grants and loan

forgiveness, for example.

We created GoHealth B.C., an agency inside B.C. Health that pays nurses a premium

to travel and work in rural communities that are facing shortages. Through GoHealth

B.C., these partnerships have created, across 34 different remote and rural communities,

the opportunity for people to travel there and help.

They employ 436 nurses, and they are doing everything they can to help alleviate some

of these workforce shortages and reduce this reliance that we’ve had on travel nurses

or agency nurses that add to the cost of delivering health care.

[4:45 p.m.]

Some health authorities have actually stood up task forces, and they are taking a

very comprehensive approach to try to address emergency department temporary closures.

For example, in Northern Health specifically, there is an emergency department stabilization

task force that’s working to identify innovative ways to reduce the number of service

interruptions or temporary closures. They’re doing things like Northern Health–specific

recruitment incentives. They’ve expanded their use of GoHealth B.C. They use agency

and locum staff to fill vacant shifts.

And we are seeing that the steps we are taking are making a difference. From 2017

to 2023, we had both the fastest-growing nursing workforce and the fastest-growing

physician workforce across the major provinces. And in 2023, we had the highest number

of physicians per capita and the highest net inflow of physicians in Canada.

In terms of these temporary emergency room closures, we’re heading in the right direction.

In the past six months, the number of unplanned, temporary closures has decreased

by 40 percent compared to the previous six months. If we compare just the first two

months of this year, January and February 2025, to the same period, January and February

2024, a year ago, the number of temporary closures has reduced by 50 percent.

We have work to do to continue to build out the health care workforce in the long

term, and that includes working to train and hire more doctors and nurses by expanding

the UBC medical school, for example.

Building a new medical school in Surrey; streamlining the licensing for U.S.-trained

doctors and nurses so they can apply directly to B.C. colleges instead of having to

go through the more lengthy and cumbersome processes at the national level.

Ramping up targeted recruitment into the U.S., for example, with a focus on attracting

doctors and nurses to rural communities.

Making changes to streamline the process for doctors to be licensed here in British

Columbia when they come in from other provinces. For example, since January 2025,

physicians who have full, unrestricted licensure in other Canadian jurisdictions can

become licensed within one week here in B.C.

We’re also working directly with health authority CEOs and their administrative and

clinical leadership teams to engage the health sector on emergency department improvements

across B.C. The goal of this work, really, is to develop a more multi-pronged strategy

and plan for sustainability in accessing urgent and emergency care for people, with

a special focus, again, on rural communities. We are going to continue to take every

action that we can to minimize these kinds of disruptions that are happening and to

ensure that we have reliable and predictable services for people.

I recently held a round table with a number of mayors from across northern and interior

communities so that they could deliver to me firsthand the impacts that they’ve seen

in their communities of emergency room temporary closures. As I mentioned before,

beyond, obviously, just how disconcerting this is and distressing it is for people

who live in these communities, it’s impacting their ability to attract new businesses

and new people, for example.

But people shared some of their success stories too. I was very heartened to see this

kind of cross-information sharing as mayors talked about what they are doing in their

homes to help recruit and retain nurses and physicians and how, in some communities,

it’s actually made a really significant difference, where the number of temporary

closures has gone down.

I hope that explains some of the steps that are taken.

I do want to talk briefly about Kitimat, specifically, and I appreciate the question

there. They’ve been facing physician and emergency nursing staff coverage challenges,

and that’s led to temporary emergency room closures, issues with maternity services.

That’s due to staffing challenges as well, hospital capacity. And I know the broader

community is facing issues with respect to primary care.

I talked about the fact that the health authorities are doing everything that they

can. I’ll just list off a few of the actions that they’ve taken in Kitimat.

The Ministry of Health approved income-guaranteed short-term locum contracts to enable

interim emergency department coverage while working with sites to move to an emergency

department group alternative payments subsidiary agreement — an APSA contract, as

we call them.

We’ve approved emergency department contracts to make emergency department coverage

more attractive from a compensation perspective. There has been the implementation

of these APSA contracts into primary care because, of course, building up the primary

care system is an important part of supporting people, meaning that they don’t have

to go to the emergency room when they don’t need to for emergency services, so increasing

the primary care APSA contracts there.

[4:50 p.m.]

Talking about nursing, there are employer-paid specialty registered-nurse educational

emergency-nursing specialty training seats that are available, and they have designated

two seats for emergency RNs for Kitimat General Hospital, supporting nurses to complete

clinical certifications to support their transition into working in the emergency

department — for example, pediatric advanced life support or Canadian triage and acuity

scale; and having non-emergency-room-trained nurses working alongside experienced

emergency room nurses for some practical experience that helps them build their confidence.

These are just some of the examples of the work we’re doing, and I’m sure we’ll continue

to canvass this more.

Claire Rattée : I appreciate the response there, but respectfully, it still really isn’t good enough

for the people in my riding.

I can appreciate that the minister also comes from a small rural riding with one road

in and one road out, but I can’t help but notice that the Tofino hospital in her riding

doesn’t experience the ER closures that Kitimat does.

I hope you’ll forgive me for being frustrated, but it’s just not good enough for the

people that I’m trying to serve.

Moving forward, I would like to ask what financial decision is causing the Ledger

program for vulnerable children to be relocated from the purpose-built Queen Alexandra

facility to the adult psychiatric Eric Martin Pavilion. Will the minister commit to

halting the relocation until full public consultation with families, clinicians and

community partners has taken place?

[4:55 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : Thank you to the member for the question.

I’m not deeply familiar with that, and we’ve just been trying to get some background

information so that I could update the member. But we don’t have it, and that means

what I’d like to do is — I know this is an Island Health facility — commit to following

up with Island Health and getting the member the information.

Claire Rattée : I really do hope that the minister uses a sense of urgency in this matter, because

I have had Island Health employees reach out to me directly today on this matter.

People are very concerned about the dangers of putting children in with adult psychiatric

patients. So I hope that there is a sense of urgency and that we can get some resolution

on this.

Next I would like to ask: how many addiction specialists, OAT prescribers and mental

health clinicians are currently practising in Skeena and the northwest?

Hon. Josie Osborne : Although I don’t have a breakdown specifically for Skeena, I can say that in the

Northern Health Authority, there are 128 prescribers and there are currently 1,168

clients. This is as of December 2024.

Claire Rattée : Like I said, I would also like to know about addiction specialists and mental health

clinicians. I would appreciate if the minister could maybe get me that information

as soon as possible, specific to my region, because the Northern Health Authority

covers a very large area and, as we know, many of those are likely in the Prince George

area, which for most of my constituents is about an eight-hour drive.

Moving on, I would like to know if there is a line item for improving diagnostic services

or reducing wait times for specialist care in Terrace and Kitimat. If not, will the

minister commit to doing so?

[5:00 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : First, I just want to go back to my last answer and add a little bit more information.

We are going to get the information to the member around prescribers in Skeena, but

to the point that, physically, prescribers are located all over what is a very large

health authority — half of British Columbia, in fact…. That’s why it’s been so important

to develop supports for people in ways that can work better for them, living in more

rural and more remote communities.

I just want to touch briefly on a few services. One is the Northern Health virtual

service.

The Northern Health Virtual Substance Use Clinic offers virtual substance use to support

residents of Northern Health who require opioid agonist therapy. They augment the

services that already exist in Northern Health and support callers who, for example,

experience an interruption in their service.

Wherever they can, they support callers by self-referring to services or programs

in their community, and they are also able to access a virtual OAT provider in under

three days.

The second is a service operated by the First Nations Health Authority, a virtual

substance use and psychiatry service, and that’s a provincewide referrals-based service

that offers addiction and psychiatry care to First Nations people and their family.

So that’s a service that is available to people. The certified practice for opioid

use disorder is a really key strategy for expanding OAT access in B.C., and particularly,

that is geared towards rural and remote communities.

Last is the opioid access treatment line, which we’ve spoken about before during estimates

here, having been introduced in August 2024 and being a provincewide telephone-based

service that connects people experiencing an opioid addiction to a team of doctors

and nurses who can prescribe OAT medication over the phone.

[5:05 p.m.]

Specific to the question around diagnostic wait times, unfortunately, we don’t have

a direct line of sight into wait times by specialty or by geography in the province.

In fact, just very recently I met with the Consultant Specialists of B.C., and we

discussed this very issue.

I know that wait times are a big concern. If the member has specific information from

your community or region, I would be very eager to hear more about that, which we

can arrange another time — not now, necessarily.

Claire Rattée : Just kind of going back, I guess, a little bit to what the minister had just said.

You know, I appreciate the breakdown on the prescribers and things of that nature.

But again, I do really want to know about addiction specialists and mental health

clinicians in the riding, because it’s making me fear that maybe there aren’t any.

Again, if there are any forms of treatment being offered in my region, then I would

assume there must be people that are addiction specialists or mental health care providers.

So I would appreciate that breakdown when the minister gets a chance.

How many in-patient psychiatry beds are available in Skeena, and how many are doing

outpatient psychiatry versus inpatient psychiatry?

[5:10 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : Apologies for the delay. It is a bit of a data-digging exercise, and I appreciate

the member’s patience.

I won’t be able to answer the question specifically. What I am able to say is that

the Northern Health Authority has 20 full-time psychiatrists and that there are 49

psychiatric beds in acute care facilities, by health authority. I know that she asked

for more specific data than that.

What I can say is that I’ll take that on advisement, and we’ll get her the breakdown

that we can.

Claire Rattée : I would just like to know…. Does that mean, then, that there aren’t any in the Skeena

region? Can we at least get clarity on whether or not there are any in the Skeena

region?

I would also like to know what the wait time is for a psychiatrist consultation right

now in British Columbia and, specifically, in Skeena.

Hon. Josie Osborne : Again, I’d have to take it on notice, because we just don’t have that information

available at our fingertips.

Claire Rattée : Can I ask the minister then, please, how many psychiatric beds are available outside

of the Vancouver and Victoria areas in general for British Columbia?

Hon. Josie Osborne : I will read here the number of psychiatric beds in acute care facilities by health

authority, which is something I can give right now.

In the Interior, it’s 139; in Fraser, 297; in Vancouver Coastal, 266; Vancouver Island,

174; and Northern, again, 49; for a total of 925.

Claire Rattée : Is the minister, then, able to provide what the general wait time is throughout B.C.

to be able to see a psychiatrist?

[5:15 p.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : Once again, this is an area where we don’t have a direct line of sight, as a specialty

consultancy. We know that access to psychiatrists remains inconsistent and that wait

times can vary from one day to over a year. It’s going to depend on the location,

the program type and the acuity of the patient.

I hope that it might also be of interest to the member that as of 2024, British Columbia

has 14.8 psychiatrists per 100,000 people, which actually exceeds the national average,

which is 13.1.

Claire Rattée : I’m wondering if the minister will commit to a regional pilot program to improve

access through transportation support, specifically for the northern region, for Skeena.

Currently many people in Kitimat have to travel to Terrace to be able to access dialysis

treatment, oncology treatment, things like that. The travel is a real barrier, especially

for people with low income. I’m wondering if the minister would commit to doing a

pilot program to improve that transportation access.

Hon. Josie Osborne : I want to thank the member for the question. We’ll take it on advisement, and we’ll

answer it when we begin this session of estimates again, I think next week.

With that, I would move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to

sit again.

Motion approved.

The committee rose at 5:19 p.m.

The House resumed at 5:19 p.m.

[The Speaker in the chair.]

Mable Elmore : Committee of Supply,

Section B, reports progress on the estimates of the Ministry

of Health and asks leave to sit again.

Leave granted.

George Anderson : Committee of Supply,

Section A, reports resolution and completion of the estimates

of the Ministry of Citizens’ Services, reports progress on the Ministry of Education

and Child Care and asks leave to sit again.

Leave granted.

Hon. Jennifer Whiteside moved adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

The Speaker : This House stands adjourned until ten o’clock, Monday, April 7.

The House adjourned at 5:20 p.m.

Proceedings in the

Douglas Fir Room

The House in Committee,

Section A.

The committee met at 1:09 p.m.

[Jessie Sunner in the chair.]

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of

Citizens’ Services

(continued)

The Chair : All right. Good afternoon, Members. I call the Committee of Supply,

Section A, to

order. We are meeting today to continue the consideration of the budget estimates

of the Ministry of Citizens’ Services.

On Vote 19: ministry operations, $705,355,000 (continued) .

[1:10 p.m.]

Hon. George Chow : I would like to clarify a statement I made, an answer regarding the implementation

of the $10 application fee. The fee was to encourage all applicants to make targeted

requests to the ministry most likely to have responsive records instead of making

broad cross-government requests to many ministries who were unlikely to have the records.

In this regard, we have seen significant improvements. Cross-government requests have

reduced from almost 3,000 in fiscal year 2019-2020 to 616 in fiscal year 2023-2024.

This reduction in government requests has enabled us to put more resources into proactive

disclosure to increase the amount of information we make available to the public on

an ongoing basis without an FOI request.

Many of these proactive disclosures were for categories of records most frequently

FOI’d, like ministers, expenses and calendars.

Rosalyn Bird : Thank you, Minister, for that update of information.

This afternoon, the first question: will the minister explain the specific criteria

the CRO uses to determine when and what government records will be disposed of?

[1:15 p.m.]

Hon. George Chow : All records are covered by the information

schedule as set out in the Information

Management Act.

The

schedule defines when the records are to be disposed of. There’s not just one

schedule; there are many schedules, many different schedules. That’s in

section 4

of the Information Management Act.

Rosalyn Bird : I do recognize that there are many schedules. I have actually had a look at them.

What I’m curious about is I’d like a better understanding of the criteria used to

actually generate the

schedule itself.

What determines that an administrative record about whiteboards can be destroyed after

one week and a procedural policy has to be kept on record for two months, two years,

etc.?

Does that help clarify the question?

Hon. George Chow : Our CRO makes a recommendation based on the information management advisory committee.

That’s a multidisciplinary committee that reviews government information schedules

in accordance with the Information Management Act.

On that committee are senior public officials from the corporate information and records

management office, from the Ministry of Finance risk management branch, from the office

of the comptroller general, from the legal services branch and from the Royal B.C.

Museum.

So you do have trained archivists who would actually help and be on the committee

and advise our CRO, who would take the recommendation from this committee and make

a decision.

Rosalyn Bird : To the minister: thank you for that. You asked one of my questions coming up.

The IMA…. In accordance with the Information Management Act, the minister can establish

the information management advisory committee