Manitoba Hansard — 11 AprH 1994 (Sitting 3A, 35th Legislature, 5th Session)

35-5-3a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session· Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker Vol. XLlll No. 3A • 1:30 p.m., Monday, AprH 11, 1994 ISSN OS42-S492

NAME ASHTON, Steve BARRE'IT, Becky CAJtSTAIRS,Shruun CERll.U, Marianne CHOMIAK. Dave CUMMIN GS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR. Gregory DOER. Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Geny, Hon. EDWARDS,- Paul ENN S, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Tim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon.

FRIESEN, Jean MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and PoUtical Affill ation CONSTITUENCY Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson Kildonan Ste.Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel StJames Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley GAUDRY, Neil Gn.LESHAMMER. Harold, Hon. GRAY, Avis St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli HEL WER, Edward R. HICKES, George KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LAnnJN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Tim MANNES S, Clayton, Hon.

MARTINDALE, Doug McALPlNE, Gerry McCORMICK, Nonna McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK. DIIIJ'en, Hon. RBID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROBJNSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG,H arry STBFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVENSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon.

WOWCHUK, Rosann Point Douglas The Maples Inkster The Pas StNorbert StJohns Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Osbome Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia P.rairle Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St Vrtal Rupertsland Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Rossmere Kirkfi.eld Plllk FlinFlon La Verendrye Fort Garry Swan River PARTY NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal Liberal NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC Liberal PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP

36 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, Aprilll, 1994 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABUNG OF REPORTS Mr. Speaker: I am pleased to table the following reports : The 1992 Annua l Report of the Ombud sma n; Freedom of Information 1992 Annual Report of the Ombudsman; and the Report of the Indemnities and Allowances Commission of the Manitoba Legislature, March 1994. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Annual Report of the Provincial Auditor for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1993. · Mr.

Speaker, I am also pleased to table volumes 1, 2 and 3 of the Public Accounts 1992-93. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have with us this afternoon from the Sandy Bay School, thirty Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. John Paramor. This school is located in the constitue ncy of the honou rable Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings). Et aussi cet apres-midi, nous tenons a vous signaler ,}a presence, dans Ia galerie publique, de 30 etudiants de Ia 12i�me annee du Coll�ge Jeanne Sauve, sous Ia direction de M.

Bernard Desautels. Cette institution est situee dans Ia circonscription du depute de Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay ). [Translation] And also this afternoon, we would like to indicate the presence of thirty Grade 12 students from College Jeanne Sauv� under the direction of Mr. Bernard Desautels. This school is situated in the constituency of the member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay). [English] On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Home Care Program Assessment Criteria Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Premier (Mr. FJ.lmon). Last year the government, after the so-called words in the health care reform action plan dealing with bringing services closer to the people in their own community, cut back on home care equipment and further cut back on home care services to people, resulting in a great deal of hardship in terms of the people who rely on home care services. Mr. Speaker, the Premier chose to change his Health ministers in September of 1993.

Shortly after the change in Health minister, the new minister said that he would put a pause on all the cuts in home care services and he would slow down the reductions in services. This is after we released public criteria that were resulting in the cuts in home care, criteria that were in utilization by the government at the time, which the Minister of Health then promised to put on hold. Mr.

Speaker, today the health care coalition of people using the home care services again calls on the government to deal with the services that they require and need to stay and live in the community with dignity and with decent health care services. I would like to ask the Premier: Has there been a change in the criteria for home care from last year with the cuts that were made by the governmen t, and can the Premier tell us today what are the

37 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April ll , 1994 criteria for home care services for the people who require them? •

(1335) Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, shortly after ta king my new job as Minister of Health, I made some adjustments to the Home Care Program so that reassessments dealing with removal of cleaning and laundry services, an end was put to those reassessments, and people were entitled to have a face-to-face interview with home care officials before any decisions like that went forward. Home care supplies and home care se rvi ces, clea ning and la undr y services for disabled people were reinstated. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health or the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) have not released the criteria, because we had criteria that changed last year, criteria that were put on hold by the minister and criteria that now are being implemented by the government through their cutbacks that have reduced dramatically to some people the services they require to live in their homes and their communities with dignity and which, of course, we all know are much more cost-effective than other more acute care hospital care services. APM Management Consultant Report Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): A second question to the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

As Premier, he has authorized the hiring of a U.S. consultant named Connie Curran to study a number of components of the Manitoba health care system. Mr. Speaker, Ms. Curran was hired to review home care services in the province of Manitoba. Some of us participated in meetings on changing home ca re with the home car e re cipi ents themselves. The government chose not to go to that forum with the home care community itself; it chose rather to hire Connie Curran, pay her $4 mill ion U.S.

Would the Premier now agree to table the report that Co nni e Curran pr oduced on home car e services and the contract that the government entered into with Connie Curran? It is our money. It is the Premier who authorized the spending of that money, and, certainly, it should be our information to deal with the proposals that the government has made. Bon. James McCrae {Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, this government has seen the need for enhanced and increased services for people in the communit y.

That is the unanimously agreed to approach that ought to be taken in health care not only in Manitoba but in other places in Canada. As well, we have increased our support to home care services over the last five years by some 83 percent. Now, if there are problems in the area of home care, they have less to do with direct service delivery than they have to do with the bureaucracy that administers the Home Care Program. We are looking very car efully at that whole system to ensure that those who need home care, those who need more of it, get more home care.

Those who recover from their illnesses, obviously, do not ne ed home care anymore or will see decreasing levels or frequ ency of home care services. I am quite happy to note that we expect improvements to be made in the area of the administration of the Home Care Program. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the minister did not answer the question. I asked the minister, after we have spent $4 million of our taxpayers' money, $4 million U.S., if the contract will be tabled in the Legislature. The Premier (Mr. Filmon) talks in the Speech from the Throne about mak ing things more available and open.

Surely, he can order one of his two Ministers of Health to make that information available. Appeal Process Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I have a further question to the Premier, Mr. Speaker. We now have an appeal body dealing with one of the Health departments in government, which is now co-chaired by the Deputy Minister of Health, the person who, by the way, was appointed by the

April ll , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 38 Premier. If the bureaucracy is in trouble, who appointed the head of the bureaucracy? The hospital health board has as vice chair, and I have a letter confinning it, the Deputy Minister of Health. So the Deputy Minister of Health makes the administ rative recom mendations to the government to cut back, and then he sits on the appeal board to deal with the deinsurance of issues. I would ask the Premier: Are we going to have a truly independent body, are we going to get the criteria so we know what is being appealed and can we get the contract from Connie Curran that we have paid for? ...

(1340) Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, you cannot, on the one hand, suggest that there are problems with the administration of a program and then be critical when governments move to correct those problems. I have acknowledged that not only in home care but in various areas of delivery of government services, not only in Manitoba but elsewhere, there are administrative issues that should be dealt with to improve service delivery to the public. That is whom we are here to serve, and that is whom we should be serving.

I do not think you can be critical on the one hand that there are problems and then criticize those who try also to solve those problems. We are making our Home Care Program more efficient with the measures that have been and will be taken. We are making it better, more user-fri endly. Programs like self-managed care, for example, have great potential fo r bet ter and more appropriate service to people. It is not good enough to me, Mr. Speaker, that people who are able to order their own lives need to live them according to the way some bureaucrat wants it done.

Those are the kinds of issues we are addressing, and we should not be criticized for addressing those issues. Youth Court Backlog Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Justice. For the first time ever in this province, the backlog of cases awaiting trial in the provincial youth court is now 11 months. This is a court in crisis. Youth are hardly accountable for their offences when they have to wait this long for a hearing. I ask the question of the minister : What emergency action will she now take to finally deal with this crisis, a crisis that is of her own making? Bon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speak er, the administration of the courts and the youth court the memb er references is of great importance to this gove rnment, and as he would know, we have appointed Crown attorneys. They have specific interests in training in the area of dealing with youth and we are now constantly looking at how to manage, with the new Provincial Court Chief Judge whom this gove rnment has recently appointed, the numbers within the courts. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, just to clarify, it appears that the response of the minister is that she is taking no action whatsoever. Given that there has been a 25 percent increase in the number of youths charged with violent crime in Winnipeg alone last year, will the minister tell this House exactly what concrete action she is going to give for Manitobans to have swift and fair justice? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the member did not hear me, so let me repeat that this is an issue which requires government to work with the Provincial Court Chief Judge. I am working with the Provincial Court Chief Judge.

We are dealing with the issue of backlogs in any of the courts. I will also remind the member that we have Crown attorneys specific ally trained in the area of dealing with youth, and we are working to deal with the issues within the youth court.

39 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April ll , 1994 Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, if the minister was dealing with the crisis, the backlog would not have increased from eight to 11 months in a matter of just a few months. My question to the minister is: Will she not look at the cuts that have taken place in the area of crime prevention for youth? Will she look again at the cut of funding to the Manitoba youth services wilderness camp in 1991 and the cut in correctional facilities- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, I think the member has some of his information quite incorrect about the operation in some of the Corrections area. I would like to assure him, and also the people of Manitoba, that we are first of all looking at the issue of prevention in the area of youth crime. We are looking at the administration of the courts both through the preparation of our Crown attorneys and also the preparation of our judges, working with the Chief Provincial Court Judge to deal with any backlogs, to look at filling any judicial vacancies and we are also looking at the area of Corrections.

I have made myself very clear to the people of Manitoba in the area of Corrections that we are looking at more vigorous confi nement. We are looking at wilderness camps for this province. Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Lease Agreement Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Lotteries Cotporation. Again over the weekend another group of neutral commentators in our province has joined the chorus asking for a full public inquiry and debate into Manitoba Lotteries.

My question for the minister is based on the recent expenditure of $1.2 million at Manitoba Lotteries Cotporation to upgrade their facilities, the renovations done inside. Mr. Speaker, that building is leased from a company called St. James Square Limited and that company is in part owned-and a director of that company is Ami Thorsteinson. Mr. Thorsteinson is a businessman of repute in this community, but he does have pretty close links to this government and this Premier (Mr. FJlm.on).

My question for the minister responsible: Will the minister table the lease so that we can be sure and the public can be sure that none of that $1.2 million in leasehold improvements will go to the landlord in this case? ...

(1345) Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister charged with the administration of The Mani toba Lotteries Foundation Act): Mr. Speaker, firstly, I might remind my honourable friend that the Mani�oba Lott eries Cor poration is in fact a Crown corporation with a board of directors who make decisions related to the operations of that Crown cotporation. Leases that they might enter into and so on, I believe are confidential information to the Crown cotporation, but just to ensure that my honourable friend does not read anything more into it than what I have just said, I will investigate the situation and advise him accordingly. Mr.

Edwards: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that and would appreciate receiving the lease so that all members can be certain that there is not any profit going to the landlord in this case. Public Inquiry Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Seco nd Opposition): My second question for the minister: A full public inquiry is clearly needed if this government has nothing to hide, and the minister has indicated that it is arm's length. This government does own that cotporation. I for one, and I think all members, would like to have better access to information. Mr.

Speaker, if I can ask the minister with respect to the cost of a public inquiry which we are suggesting. I note that in a letter of December 24, 1993, Mr. Funk indicates and I quote, and I am prepared to table a copy of that letter: The Lotte ries Cor poration is planning a public

April ll, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 40 awareness campaign regarding the benefits of gaming and lottery revenue. Mr. Speaker, would it not be a better use of that money to allow the public to have a say and understand what is happening in gambling in this province? Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister charged with the admi nistration of The Man itoba Lotteries Foundation Act): Mr.

Speaker, if there is one question that constantly arises from the public with respect to lotteries and gaming in the province, it is that they are not certain as to where all of the money goes, notwithstanding the fact that every dollar is accounted for in the financial statements of the Lotteries Corporation. The expenditures are fu lly accounted for in the Estimat e s of the Province of Manitoba, as contained within the budget. They are still unclear as to where the money goes. Mr. Speaker, that is clearly within the mandate of the Lotteries Corporation; it is to tell them where the money goes.

Five-Year Plan Mr. Paul Edw ards (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, this minister attempts regularly to dodge questions about the Lotterles: they are independent, they are run by a board of directors. Mr. Speaker, this minister and this government is accountable for gaming in this province. They have set the agenda in the last few years, and Lotteries have gone 180 de grees in this province in that time. My final question for the minister: If they are so open, why is it that we have been consistentl y unable to see the five-year plan of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation?

It is there, we have had it confinned from the minister that it is there. Why can we not see it? What are they hiding that we cannot see-the people of this province cannot understa nd-the five-year plan of Lotteries in this province? Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister charged with the ad ministration of The Ma nitoba Lotte ries Foundation Act): Mr. Speaker, the policy of this government respecting the conduct of lotteries and gaming schemes in the province has been made very clear. There is a moratorium. Mr.

Speaker, we have clearly indicated where we feel lotteries and gaming activities have gone and where they will rest for the near future. The fact that there are plan s requi red by legislati on dealing with five-year projections by the Crown Corporations Council for all Crown corporations, those plans change from time to time. Other events intervene such as a moratorium, and so that while those plans are internal planning documents and will remain so, the fact of the matter is that we clearly indicate where the policy of the government is with respect to this matter.

I think that has been available for everyone to see. Dakota Ojibway Tribal Council Police Force Funding Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice this afternoon. The Dakota Ojibway Tribal Council police force was established in 1978, as many members of this House will know, to provide locally controlled police services and has been viewed as a model across Canada by aboriginal people and people in general.

Here in Manitoba the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry recommended that the DOTC police force be provided with the greater necessary resources to provide this policing and to assum e full respons ibility of law enforcement in that area. My qu estion is to the minist er: As this government has gone completely opposite to what the Ail recommended with respect to supporting the Dakota Ojibway Tribal Council police force and, as well, the recently announced national aboriginal policing initiative, why bas the minister not signed an agreement with the DOTC police force as of this date? •

(1350) Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the

41 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 11, 1994 member has his facts wrong as the member before him . Let me remind this member that the Dakota Ojibway Tribal Council policing, DOTC policing was a 100 percent federally funded program. When the DOTC wished to have additional funds to their program, an agreement signed bilaterally between the DOTC and the federal government, that approach was made to the federal government. Mr. Robinson: Mr.

Speaker, the minister will have heard my remarks that we recently had a national aboriginal policing initiative announced to work with the federal , provincial and First Nations governments. Manitoba is one of two provinces in Canada that has not yet entered into this arrangement. Is the minister prepared to undergo and get this arrangement going in this province? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, I visited the Solicitor General in Ottawa; I indicated directly to him that Manitoba would like to undertake First Nations policing agreemen ts. That visit took place on a Thursday.

By Monday our government and the federal government began visiting aboriginal communities in this province to undertake the signing ofFJrSt Nations policing agreements . I would like the member to know-perhaps he has missed it-that this government does share Canada's commitment. We have spoken to Canada dire ctly for support of Canada's First Nations policing policy.

We are in fa vour of the First Nations policing policy and in undertaking agreements as quickly as they can be dev eloped, but the member also should know that these are tripartite agreem ents and they involve consultations with the individual communities. Mr. Robinson: I know that the Dakota Ojibway Tribal Council police for ce, the 12,000 people on eight reserves that are part of the DOTC have been without police services since November of 1993. What does it take this minister to move on this issue?

The federal government appears ready to sign the agree ment and the provincial government seems to be dragging its heels on this very important issue. Does it require a tragedy for this minister to realize and take action in signing this agreement? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, let me inform the member that on the day the Dakota Ojibway Tribal Council collapsed their police for ce, I made the offer on that day to bring together a tripartite meeting. That offer was not accepted. However, since my visit to Ottawa and to meeting with the federal Solicitor General, those tripartite meetings have begun.

I would like to stress, the people of Manitoba to know, that those meetings are ongoing and we believe we are making very significant progre ss. Canadian Pacific Call Centre Opening Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier of the province. The number of jobs that have been crea ted by the wise policies of this government, we saw evidence of the effe cts of these policies again today with the opening of the Canadian Pacific call centre in Winnipeg.

Would the Premier ple ase outline for this House the results which the opening of the call centre will have on Manitoba and Winnipeg? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Spea ker, I am surprised that the members opposite would not come up with that question, and I compliment the member for Sturgeon Creek for an excellent question. Yes, we were very pleased, of course, to have Canadian Pacific open their call centre with some 210 new jobs. It is a state- of-th e-art facility. It is a service centre here that will be of the highes t technology of any railway company in North America.

It has some 57 kilometres of various different types of wire and cable for the high state of tele communications that they will be bringing into that centre. They will, of course, be doing business all throughout North America from this centre . It continues the histoxy of Manitoba as being a centre for railways in North America, only it takes it to the new-age jobs of the information highway, jobs that represent tremendous inve stment, some

April ll , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 42 $2.5 million of leasehold impro vements and a $7 million annual payroll for Manitoba. I know that New Democ rats are very upset about that, but we believe that is good for business and good for Manitoba. •

(1355) Point of Order Mr. Jerry Storie (Fiin Flon): There may be a technical problem in the Legislature, Mr. Speak er, and perhaps the fault lies with the Premi er's bearing piece, because several question s have been asked for the Premier (Mr. Film on) on this side and be never bears them, but he beard the softball question from the member for Sturge on Creek (Mr. McAlpine ). Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member knows be does not have a point of order. [interjection] I think we are going to find out about the point of order. Mr. Filmon: On a point of order, Mr.

Speaker, there may be a technical proble m, because I did not hear the member for Flin Flon announce his resign ation. Cle arly , somebo dy who is triple-dipping from the taxpayers- Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase. Both honourable members know they do not have a point of order. International Trade Government Commitment Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question is to the Premier. This government bas created an environment for business in Manitoba and bas been personally instrumental in opening the trade op portunities in overse as marlrets.

My question for the Premier is whether he will, along with his governmen t, continue to work with Manitoba businesses in the promotion of Manitoba and fore ign markets? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I app recia te the inte rest of the member for Sturgeon Cree k, and I know that the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Edw ards ) bas been critical of Manitoba's efforts to reach out and enhance its trade with other nations throughout the world. In the globalized economy that we are now involved in, it is very, very important .

As a for instance, I know that members opposite are probably not aware of the fact that even in the past three years, Manitoba's exports to the United States have gone up just under 40 percent, just under 40 percent, Mr. Speaker. More particularly, last year alone Manitoba's exports to Mexico went up some 30 percent .

These are indications of the need, the absolute necessity for a province of Manitoba's size to be involved in fore ign marlrets and trade with all of the emer ging ne w ma rkets of the wo rld, particularly where the middle class is exp anding and their ability to buy the kinds of goods and services that we produce in this province is increasing. So we will indeed make that a high priority and continue to put significant efforts behind that. •

(1400) Economic Policies Fiscal ResponSI"bility Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary question: Will the Premier continue the strategy of economic restraint that has earned this government the respect of major financial institutions at a time when other governments in this country are being looked upon in an unfavourable light by bond rating agencies and investors? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Spe aker, again, I ap preciate the very strong focus of the member for Sturgeon Cree k's question. Indeed, it is nice to bring some quality into Question Period, some quality questions.

Certainly, the member makes a good point. When the Dominion Bond Rating Service recently assessed all of the pr ovinces in Canada, it said that since 1987 Manitoba has had the most fiscally responsible government in all of Canada. We take that as a significantly positive analysis of the work that this government has done, and I

43 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April ll , 1994 assure the member for Sturgeon Creek that we will continue along that path. Handi-Transit Program Funding Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Urban Affairs. Given the fact that upward of 200 people are now denied Handi-Transit each day and the hardship this has created for seniors and the disabled, will the minister restore funding to both Transit and Handi-Transit? Bon. Linda Mcint osh (Minister of Urban Aff airs): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to welcome the new member to his portfolio and indicate that I look forward to working with him as my critic. Ifl cannot provide the answers in-House, I will be getting back to him at other ti mes wi th the answers. This one I can provide, but I do want to say I look forward to working with him. On the Handi- Transit, we cannot restore something we never did in the first place. We do not fund Handi-Transit. What we do is we give a series of block grants to the City of Wmnipeg. One is for Transit, and there are several others as well.

This year, in total, the City of Winnipeg received a 5.2 percent increase in its grants. The funding that is given for Transit operations is not intended to fund Transit in its entirety. It simply means that they must spend at least that much on Transit. We expect they would top it up with whatever monies they feel they would like to take from about $32 million worth of unconditional funding they have available to choose priorities with. Mr. Schellenberg: Try telling that to the disabled and seniors.

How many seniors and disabled people are going to be forced into institutions, which will take away their dignity of living in their own home, as a result of these cuts? Mrs. Mcint osh: I am sorry, I have a little touch of laryngitis so I am having trouble calling over the noise. I have to wait for quiet. I am not being obstreperous. I just cannot shout over it. I would like to indicate, Mr. Speaker, I cannot answer that question. That is a question the City of Winnipeg officials will have to decide.

The way The City of Winnipeg Act is structured is the City of Winnipeg is given authority to make certain decisions. That authority goes along with the fact that they are chosen by the local people to make decisions that are close to the neighbourhood level. We provide the money. The city frequently will say to us, please do not tell us where to spend our money, just give us the block grant, we have the ability to choose the priorities because we are there every day knowing how the system works. We do not run Transit. The city runs Transit. I presume they know the priorities.

They have $4 million more right now this year than they had last year. They are perfec tly free to take $400,000 of that-I would encourage them to do that-and apply it to Handi-Transit if they have ascertained through their studies there is a need. Mr. Schellenberg: This is just like the home care issue. When will the minister meet with the people aff ected by the cuts to Handi-Transit? Mrs. Mcintosh: I should indicate, on behalf of the city, that the city council lors have not made cuts to Handi-Transit. The city councillors have allocated an additional $400,000.

City Council would like us to designate specific money on top of that as well. We are say�g to them, and we have said to them since last year when the previous minister wrote saying: We prefer not to designate and tell you where to break up the money for transit. We will give you extra money this year and you can choose from that the amount that you wish to apply to Handi-Transit. We give you that autonomy because you asked for that autonomy, and we give you that accountability and along with that goes the responsibility to set the priority and make the decision. We cannot go down and set Winnipeg's budget.

If we did that, we would not need Winnipeg City Council.

April ll , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 44 Education System Funding Formula Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness), since he has been in the position of Minister of Education, has spun around this province at every opportunity and told groups that education funding is not an issue. He said this in numerous forums. He said it at the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, where he actually said, there are those of course that will endeavour to make it an issue and he will deal with those.

Well, I want to say to the minister now, it is time to start dealing with them, and I want to ask the Minister of Education today, in this Legislature, whether it is still his position that funding is not an issue and how he can do that after two consecutive years of cuts by this minister as Minister of Finance and Minister of Education? Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for acknowledging that I have been out of my office and have be en meeting with a number of educational groups over the course of the last number of months.

The question of funding has arisen, and, yes, I have indicated that in the context of reform in ed uca tion , which certa inly the gov ernment strongly supports, funding is not an issue, that reform is going to have to be conducted in the context of the restraint that we are in. I also indicated, I said there is no doubt that the NDP will try and make funding a large, large issue because the solution of New Democrats basically is throw more money at every problem that you can. So the member is basical ly correct in the statement of his question. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Speaker, I have to ask the minister, in light of these ra ther absurd and self-serving statements that he has made that- An Honourable Member: What? Mr. Plobman: Well, that is what they are- Mr. Manness: I said you were right. I said your question was right. Mr. Plohman: That is right. Then he makes the statement that funding is not an issue. Mr.

Speaker, I have to ask this minister: Is he making this kind of a statement which he has reiterated in the House today, is he making that kind of statement because he thinks that his funding is eminently fair, the pain is felt across the system equally, or is it because he thinks there is more than adequate funding already for the public education system in this province? Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, why is the member hollering at me when I agreed with his statement? He has stated his question and-[interjection] I did not tell him how to phrase his first question of the session.

The member asks whether or not the level of funding is fair. Well, Mr. Speaker, as compared to what? In Alberta, there is a 15 percent reduction over the next three years. Ontario, there have been decreases. So we have announced a 2.6 percent reduction to school divisions which had in total roughly $60 million in surplus and we sense, given the circumstances that we are dealing with from a fiscal perspective, that it was a very fair level of funding. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, the minister did not answer the question.

I want to ask him though, again, how he can justify making this kind of self-serving statement when private schools have received a 19 percent increase over the last two years, 12 last year, 7 this year that the minister has announced, and other school divisions in the public education system have been cut by 10 and 12 percent over those same two years. How can the minister justify that? Mr. Manness: Well, Mr. Speaker,

whereas the member opposite wants to set up this class warfare between school districts, I choose not to. Let me point out that the support for those in the independent school system is roughly 63 percent of the per capita student in the public school system. Let me point out that roughly for the 10,000 students in the independent school system, roughly $24 million is being allocated in this budget.

45 LEGISLATIVE AS'SEMBLY OF MANITOBA April ll , 1994 Let me mainly point out in case the member has forgotten, this gove rnment has delivered on basically all of its policy commitments. This government did make a commitment before the last election working towards 80 percent funding of the public school system and the independent. We have fallen behind that level of increase. We are now at 63 percent. *

(1410) Manitoba Hazardous Waste Corporation Development Costs Ms. Norma McCo rmi ck (Osborne ): Mr. Speaker , my question is for the Minister of Environment. An initial agreement was signed between the Manitoba Haz ardous Waste Management Corporation and Industrial Ecology Incorporated to begin construction of a hazardous waste plant in Montcalm. The announcement said that this government has invested $1.75 million in the project to date and is going to sell a 50 percent interest in the company to lEI for a matching amount.

Me anwhile, in pitching the corporation to potential investors, its CEO Don Vernon has been saying that the province has spent $23 million on the development to date. My concern is that the department is understating the amount of taxpayers' money invested in this project. Can the minister explain the difference between what Mr. Ve rnon is saying and what his department is saying? Hon. Glen Cummi ngs (Mi ni ster of Environment): Mr. Speaker, I am not sure where the member received those quotes from.

The amount that we have been working with the potential investors around in terms of the total number of dollars that have been invested since the original inception of the Crown corporation was about $17.5 mill ion. lEI Agreement Ms. Norma McCo rmick (Osborn e): Mr. Speaker, concerns have been expressed to this minister by many, including Mr. Doug Sherwood, the CEO of the Crown Corporations Council on the financial capability of lEI to run this facility.

Will the minister place before this House the initial agreemen t between the Manitoba Hazardous Waste Management Corporation and lEI to assure the members and the citizens of Manitoba whose money this is, that the deal is truly in our best interest? Ron. Gl en Cummi ngs (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, the present position that we are in is that we have a 30-day period in which we are attempting to finalize and fill in some of the blanks that need to be filled in in the initial agreement. I will certainly be prepared to share information with the public. This has been a very public process.

In fact, the selection of potential investors was debated many times 'in a . public forum whether or not the government was involved or not. The community was involved. The community met with the potential investors. Anyone in the community of Montcalm who wanted to find out further information about those who might be co-investors to the government was quite welcome to be involved. It has been a very transparent process, Mr. Speaker, and I will continue that way. Ms. McCo rmick: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. There is also conc ern ex pressed by Mr.

Sherwood and others that the lEI, which is an Ontario -based consortium of consulting companies, does not have the resources or the backing required to purchase a half interest in Manit oba Haz ardous Waste Management Corporation Will the minister assure this House that the financing for this deal will not come from a discredited Immigrant Investor Fund which was investigated in the Immigrant Investor Program review? Mr. Cummings: First of all, I would ask the member to name the so-called discredited fund that she is referring to, because there are a number of them there.

April ll , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 46 Secondly, Mr. Chapple, who was representing lEI at the ann ouncement, was asked very clearly if be could raise the money and be said that he could. We have 30 days in which they must finn up their financing and finn up the general agreement that they are prepared to enter into with the province. I think that we do the taxpayers of this province, Mr. Speaker, no credit We do not acknowledge that the soft development costs that the province has invested may now be matched by bard dollars from private industry. That is a good deal. Mr.

Speaker: Time for Oral Questions ba s expired. NONPOL �CAL STATEMENTS Tankard Men's Curling Championship and Manitoba Winter Games Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Thompson have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, in the time that we were out of session, there were a number of very significant events hosted by the city of Thompson, in fact two of the most significant events of the sporting year.

I think it would be important if we as the members of the Legislature pay tribute first of all to the organizers of the Tankard men's curling champions hip which was held in Thompson. It was an excellently run event. If there were any doubters before, Mr. Speaker, there could be no doubt now that it was a tremendous event that was put on by the people ofTb ompson. I note that there was at least one member of the Legislature who bad a specific interest in being able to watch the proceedings, the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner).

I would like to also pay tribute to the organizers of the Winter Games which was just recently held in Thompson. Thompson was host to 1,600 visitors. We had well over 1,400 volunteers. It was a very tremendous opportunity for us to show off our comm unity. I know, once again, that two members of the Legislature bad the opportunity to have more than a passing interes t, most notably, the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Delkacb) and the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Orchard), who both bad children participating in the ev ent. I would like to congratulate the organizers of that activity as well.

I would like to also note just in concluding that I know the Minister resp onsible for Sport (Mr. Ernst) did ask me before the Winter Games whether there might be some difficulty due to snow, Mr. Speaker. I think be was referring to lack of snow but, as the minister knows from his own visit, if anything, we bad too much snow. That is one thing Thompson certainly bas an excess of when it comes to winter games. It is not only the snow but the organization and the hospitality. I really commend the organizers of both those very significant sporting events. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable minister responsible for Sport have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister responsible for Sport): Mr. Speaker, I want to join with the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) in congratulating the organizing committees of both the Tankard and the Manitoba Games for the excellent work they did in the community of Thompson. Thousands of volunteers have participated in events. I think the key recognition of the fact that Mr.

Rob Platford and his wife Diane, who were the organizing chairs for the Manitoba Games, were basically wandering around during the event like lost souls without really a whole lot to do because they had it so well organized. Everybody was doing their job, and there was no need for crisis management during the event I think that is a great testimony to those individuals and obviously to all of the people who participated in organizing those games. They were extremely well run, very well involved from right across the province. We bad people from every region, of course.

It was a great tribute to the community of Thompson, and we salute them for that.

47 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April ll , 1994 Mr. Speaker: Does the honoumble member for St. Boniface have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. NeD Gaudry (St. Boniface): I am pleased to rise, Mr. Spe aker, to join the other two to compliment the city of Thompson and what they have done over the past months. Having been a resident of Thompson maybe 25 years ago and having also been involved in a business in the city of Thompson, I know what it is to live and work in Thompson with the people of Thompson. Maybe next time I should run in Thompson. [interjection] I am sorry, Mr.

Speaker, I apologize. I would like to say, I think what does those organizations credit is the fact that the volunteers who are involved in the community are always the backbone of these organizations. I compliment the city of Thompson and the people of Thompson for what they have done over the past months. Thank you very much. Holocaust Awareness Week Mr. Speaker: Does the honoumble member for Kildonan have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): I rise in the midst of Holocaust Aw�ness Week to, of course, declare to this House, as all members I am sure are aware, that this is Holocaust Awareness Week. I have had the occasion to attend many functions including the renaming of a street in the constituency of St Johns to be called the Warsaw ghetto hero street, as well as a commemomtive cer emony at the monument located on the legislative grounds last Friday, Mr. Speaker. •

(1420) I am sure all members of the House will join with me to maintain something that was said at one of the speeches at the commemomtive ceremony, namely, that is the word that was mised over and over again was vigilance, that we all are vigilant to ensure and pay attention to what happens in our society. There was mention of many other of the kinds of situations going on in the world today.

As we speak there are many other actions that are going on in this world that all of us I am sure in this House deplore and require us to be vigilant as well as to maintain cognizance and memory of the terrible holocaust that took away one-third of the world Jewry during those terrible years, and to note and commemom te the heroes of that period as well as remain vigilant now and forever, Mr. Speaker, that that kind of activity will never again happen. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Second Day of Debate) Mr.

Speaker: On the adjourned debate, second day of debate, on the proposed motion of the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) for an address to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, in answer to his speech at the opening of session, standing in the name of the honoumble Leader of the official opposition. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, it is an honour again to rise on this the Fifth Session of the Thirty-fifth Legislature of the Province of Manitoba. Basically it is a time to take stock of what has been going on with this government.

It is time to reflect, I believe, the feelings of Manitobans that we have been listening to in the coffee shops, at the farm kitchen tables, at the plant gates, to listen and reflect back on their views on the perfonnance of the government. Anybody can write a Speech· from the Throne, but as an old saying used to be, an old Latin saying I believe, we have to look at the deeds of government not the words of government. We will be refl ecting today on the deed s of government, facta non verba as the Latins used to say, not on the words of government. Mr.

Speaker, the feelings we are getting right now from people across this province is this is a government, yes, full of fine words, great press releases, great media communications, a great effort to get their so-called message out, but it is a government that has drifted and drifted from year to year and from spee ch to speech.

Aprilll , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSE:MBL Y OF MANITOBA 48 When I listen to the people of this province they say, are we better off in jobs today than we were when the government was elected? They say, no. Is our health care system in better shape today than it was six years ago? No. Do we have a fairer more balanced education system to invest in our young people? Absolutely not, Mr. Speaker. Do you know what people say to us? They say the only areas of growth that this government has sponsored since they have been elected six years ago has been gambling and welfare .

On all the bread-and-butter issues, this government is failing and failing miserably to the people of Manitoba. We saw that during the by-elections last year. That was the testimony . This was the accounting. The words in this House and the speeches in this House are irr elevant to what the people are saying by their direct ballot last year, last fall. In five by-elections I have never seen it more serious for the Conservative side in my life , going door to door. Not only did the Conserva tives lose all five seats, but even Sterling Lyon did not get below 25 percent in the constituency of Osborne.

I have never seen the Conservatives below 40 percent in Rossmere, even when the NDP was winning the seat by a narrow margin. When we were going door to door in many communities in those by-elections , the one thing we found out is if anybody was undecide d, the only thing they had decided is they were not voting Conserva tive again because they had less people working, less opportunity in their health care system and less fairness in their education system . That is the one thing-we found loud and cle ar.

So I would like to start by welcoming the five members that have been elected, the three on the NDP side, the two on the Liberal side, and welcoming them to this Chamber, Mr. Speaker. I believe that Manitobans have seen four of the five in Que stion Period already, in the two brief Question Periods we have had, and I am sure we will see the member for The Maples shortly, but I think they are fine representatives of their community. I wa nt to congratulate specifically the new member for Rossmere (Mr. Schellen berg), the new member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), the new member for Rupertsland (Mr.

Robinson), the new member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski) and the new member for Osborne (Ms. McConnick). I also want to welcome to the Legislature all members. This could be the last session bef ore the election, Mr. Speaker. It is, after all, the fifth session, and I welcome the return of all members . We already know of two members that have indicated they are not going to return after the next election, a fine member in our caucus, our deputy leader (Mr.

Storie) and a 13- year person who has per formed admirably in this Chamber, has performed in his role of cabinet, in his role as third-party critic and in the role of opposition critic with integrity , dignity, honesty and a person I know that all Manitobans are proud to have worked with. He has not left yet, and he will be available to vote with the people of F1in Flon and against the government at all the possible voting times. •

(1430) I know the member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) is also leaving this Chamber, I believe presently working at the University of Manitoba and will leave shortly after the sess ion. I understand she is going to another Chamber, Mr. Speaker. We are not part of the Liberal career path, either to the Court of Appeal or to the Chambe r, but we will see what happens . We wish her a personal best. We will save our comments about that decision of the Prime Minister at a later point. I do wish her well on a personal basis on her decision.

No doubt there will be member s of the Conservative side who will. be here for their last Spee ch from the Throne. I do not know who they are yet. We hear various rumours from various members of you. We can kind of guess, Mr. Speaker, but I am sure with every election the people take personal stock. I know, in all sincerity , with the pressure on family lives and personal lives, that some people will leave . They will leave

49 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April ll , 1994 for the most noble of reasons and they will have left this place a finer place for their contributions. So I do not know who it is across the way who will be leaving and when they will be leaving in a fourth year. I just know there have been some very good people in last elections who have left, willingly some and not willingly others , and that is part of the democracy. I want to formally wish them well in their decisions. Mr. Speaker, I want to wish you well again.

I know it is a pro forma wish that we all make, but I just want to say that this is beyond a pro forma wish. We wish you very well. We think you have brought to this Chamber a nonpartisan sense of decision making. I can only quote a constituent of mine, a railroader from the CN, who said to me the other day when we ca me together to the Lieutenant-Governor's chamber: I would like to meet the Speaker of the House; he looks like a nice guy and a fair guy. And he did have the chance to meet you.

He said he is a nice guy and a fair guy and kind of a raunchy guy, too, in the nicest sense of the word, in the kindest sense of the word. I am only quoting the railroader directly to you. You would only want direct feedback. and he liked you a lot and he thought you did a good job. The kind of dignity and integrity you bring to the Chamber is reminiscent I think of Speaker Fraser in the House of Commons who from time to time went against the government of the day. I recall the material that was handed out on the GST.

He was very critical of the former Fmance minister of the day in terms of not having the legal authority to put out certain material before

an act of Parliament was passed on the GST. I thought that was a courage ous decision against the former Conservative government, being a Conservative member of the bench. I dare say, Mr. Speaker, that ultimately at some point I think this Chamber will move from an appointed Speaker by the Premier to an elected Spe aker. I think that is happening in other provinces, and I would dare say that if there was an election day-I can only speak as an individual because it would be individual votes-! would think you would stand a very good test from all sides of this Chamber, a real testimony to your abilities in that chair. I am not saying that because I want to get longer

preamble s. It is an old basketball rule always to criticize the referee to get the next call. I do not know whether the opposite works. We will find out. Mr. Speaker, the government's record speaks for itself. There were a few good ideas in the Speech from the Throne , and I want to talk about the driver's licence for young people. Now, it was not very detailed.

We have to look at it in terms of how it will be implemented, and will it make sense to young people, because if it does make sense for young people, I think for some kids, or some youth, a driver's licence is a very important move towards greater rights in our society. I have always believed that a licence is not a privilege, Mr. Speaker, it is a responsibility, and I would like to see the specific legislation that you are proposing. I know there have been other moves in the United States dealing with drivers' licences. I think the example the member for Wolseley (Ms.

Friesen) mentioned to me was Bill Clinton's policy about graduating from high school, et cetera, but we certainly want to look at it and look at it positively. The NDP did propose a similar proposal , Mr. Speaker. Before the session started, we proposed that we look at the public insurance act and have an ex tra premi um or an excess pr emium for individuals that are convicted of offences dealing with damage towards automobiles for a period of time, again, a direct consequence for action against individuals or their property.

We would like to look at that along with other changes to the public insurance act, including a proposal to make the public insurance act and the proposals under the no-fault system to have an appeal body that is truly independent from the government. We are very critical of the way the government has established the so-called appeal body. It should not be a body that is close to the government, both socially and politically; it should be a body that is removed from the government. So

April ll , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 50 we will have a couple of changes to make or propose on the public insurance bill. We did propose 30 amendments before, but part of it will fit I think with the government 's proposal on the issue of crime and of what we can do with it. We asked a number of questions about crime last year. I asked a question to the Deputy Premier (Mr.

Downey) two years ago about youth crime, and I did not get any answers except the kind of Johnny Appleseed response from the Deputy Premier that everything was okay and the world is good to me and there are no problems out there, no problems whatsoever. Then last year again, I asked the question on youth crime in the spring session of this Chamber, and I have quoted youth statistics showing youth violence had increased. Again I was given the kind of flippant answer from the Deputy Premier, and later on the former Minister of Justice, now the Minister of Health (Mr.

McCrae), came back and said, well, we have got all kinds of committees to deal with youth violence and youth crime. It is not a problem of staffing schools; it is not a problem of cutting back on prev ention; it is not a problem of our courts. We have got all these intenlepartmental committees going on. Well, that is the same answer we got when we got asked the questions about violence in schools to the Premier (Mr. Filmon). The Premier said, well, we have created an interdep ar tmental committee to deal with this issue.

This is after a report wa s tabled by MAST, the school superintende nts, the school trustees calling on action and co- ordination by the provincial government. Then, of course , the provincial government did nothing. It had an interdepart mental committee. Is it not surprising today that when our Justice critic asked the minister about the 11 -month delay in the youth offender system today, her answer was we are going to hit them over the head with seminars. I guess that is very consistent with what she did when youth violence was in the schools. We are going to have an inter departmental committee.

The public does not want committees. They do not want gestalt thera py. They do not want seminars. They want action. Mr. Speaker, I want to say to the Premier dire ctly, he cannot tolerate because the public cannot tolerate 11 -month delays in the juvenile justice system of this province . He has sat on a system of justice that is getting more and more out of touch wit h the public and all the press conferences the Premier has and the Minister of Justice has will not change the reality of a court system that he has put in place.

As a former volunteer-! was the past president of the Boys and Girls Oub of Winnipeg and a past worker who was involved in crime prevention programs-! can say from actual experience that the old victim of justice delayed is justice denied is very true in this juvenile justice system. For the Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) today to say that she is not resp onsible and she is going to have a couple of seminars to deal with this real probl em, I think is really showing her incompetence.

We were worr ied about that after she was moved from the Ministry of Education, and now we have every reason to worry about it again. She declares war on drugs, but the only war we see is a press release, a seminar, a sound bite and no action to back up the so-called government resolve, Mr. Speaker. There is chaos, Mr. Premier. There is chaos in the juvenile justice system and you, Sir, have sat on it for six years and done nothing and the people want action. Mr.

Speaker, we believe with this 40 percent increase in youth crime since the government has been in office-violent crime-that you have to have a multidimensional appro ach to deal with this. You cannot have just a one-dimensional approach. We in the New Democratic Party believe that you must have the ability to have the community be responsible for preventing crime and on the same token you must have a crime and justice system that allows the individual who is involved or alleged to be involved in crime to be held accountable. Mr. Speaker, we do not see any dimension to the Tory crime policy.

We do not see the crime prevention programs being maintained. We do not see crime prevention programs and community responsibility being enhanced. Whether that is in

51 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April ll, 1994 the aboriginal jus tice system that we have proposed, whether that is in the community justice system, whether that is downtown or up north, we see absolutely no mo ve to having greater responsibility in the community. Mr. Speaker, how can this government justify cutting $10 0,000 out of crime prevention and then say to the people of this province that they are in fact with them to stop crime?

How can this government amalgamate the Child and Family Services divisions of the city of Winnipeg where hundreds of volun teers were working wit h community ownership to stop crime? All they have done is increase the bureaucracy and decrease the volunteeris m, decrease the community activity, decrease the participation. What we have now is more and more people throwing up their hands and saying it is over to you Mr. Government or Mrs. Government. The less and less you involve people, the less and less ownership you have to prevent crime. So all these things must be taken into context.

The government now talks in this Speech from the 1brone about a wilderness camp. Well , what a great idea. When they took office there were two wildern ess camps in operation. There was one aboriginal wilderness camp, I believe , under Neecheewan. I have to check that for my facts, but I am pretty sure it was still in existence. Secondly, there was another wilderness camp run out of the Hugh John Macdonald system. There were less people sitting in remand and more people put in place ments and programs before you got elected. ...

(1440) Again, deeds not words-your words are fine, your deeds were to cut back wilderness pr ograms, and then you come in here with all the sanctimony in the wor ld after you have cut back these programs. The Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) is sitting on a drif ting just ice system and a drifting community prevention system and a drifting system of consequences, and she promises us a seminar. You will excuse us if we are not satisfied with the answers, Mr. Speaker, because I would dare say the public are not satisfied with the answers. Mr.

Spea ker , I would re co mmen d the government look at two bits of material that have been forwarded to it, lots of material that has been forwarded to it from the community. I would cite a letter from Mr. Doug Lawrence, a former senior member of Corrections, that I had received a copy of and the Minister of Justice has received a copy of, who is retired and has become a victim of crime as an individual citizen. He provides a lot of ideas and offers his volu ntary services to the government. He, along with hundreds of others, are crying out to get involved, to help the community get involved.

He offers some very good suggestions of how to be very careful about an Americanization of some of the programs that the minister is talking about. How are we going to deal with the aboriginal population and the oversentencing of aboriginal youth? How are we going to deal with mentally disturbed kids? As a volunteer, again, from Special Olymp ics, I am quite concerned about that issue and how we are going to deal with behavioral problems in our system and how we are going to provide the programs for them. I would also recommend the paper that was produced by our Minister of Justice, the member for St.

Johns , a pa per that is now getting tremendous advice and ideas from the people across our system. There is no question- An Honourable Member: Minister? Mr. Doer: Critic of Justice. Sorry, Mr. Speaker, Freudian slip. Mr. Speaker, you have to look at the whole issue of ownership for the community-volunteers , teachers, children living in poverty with the child poverty rate going up and, yes, you have to look at the consequences when youth get into trouble. Cle arly , both areas have to be addressed. I would encourage the government to look at changes to the Young Offenders Act.

I personally was against the Young Offenders Act. I personally thought, again, as a volunteer of the boys and girl s club, the old juvenile delinquents act had less

April ll , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 52 lawyers and more common sense than we have now under the Young Offenders Act, which is really a kind of a manifestation of the American ju stice syst em. Ev en thou gh the juven ile delinquents act was outdated in some areas, it had more fle xibility on the age side, it had more flexibility on the sentencing side, and when the child was sentenced to adult court or a young adult was sent to adult court for a very serious crime, there was no differential punishment for that young offender if they were very , very seriously causing a risk to the community.

The old juve nile delinquents act had a better balance, I think, between the rights of the individual who is accused of a crime and the rights of the community, Mr. Speaker, and I think we have to get a grip on it. There is a situation in British Columbia where a 16-yea r-old youth has just been convicted of murder of a six-ye ar-old child. This was a youth that was involved in sexual abuse on two former occasions, yet this child was allowed to baby-sit in a complex in Coquitlam, Br itish Columbia.

Nobody in the public or in that community was even aware of the prev ious sexual behaviour of that child, or young adult, who then went and unfortunately killed a six-year-old person. We have to get a system that balances the needs of those community children with the needs of that individual who was convicted of sexual assault. We are crying out. Mr. Speaker, we will work with this Minister of Justice in a nonpartisan way to bring some common sense back to our justice system , to not allow six-year-old kids to be murdered by a youth who has been involved in an offence before.

Those changes have to be made on the Young Offenders Act, but this government has to practise what it preaches and not just pre ach one thing in this Chamber and do nothing about it outside of this Chamber. We are committed to working with you in this regard. I say this to the member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard), there is no ideology that does not want to protect the citizens of our communities. We believe in community crime prevention as well. If you will look at the delay in the court system right now, you better take a long look in the mirror.

You better raise it in your own caucus tonight when you have your Monday evening session, because I would say to the member for Pembina, 11 months is justice delayed, and justice delayed is justice denied. If that is Conservative philosophy, you better change it tonight. Mr. Spe aker, we have proposed other amend ments, other alternatives dealing with crime. We have proposed that the war on drugs be implemented, that the government promised. Remember that war on drugs? Does the Premier remember the war on drugs? He announced it with a great bit of fanfare in 1990.

Our Justice critic asked the question on Friday -the Minister of Justice, the former Minister of Education, who was the former chair of this committee that travelled around and heard all kinds of ide as and got some proposals and had some seminars, had the war on drugs. In fact I think we rechallenged the war on drugs in 1992 in the Speech from the Throne , but 1994 comes along, all we see is a white flag out there from the Minister of Justice. I surrender, I surre nder, are the real silent words from this minister and this Pr emi er, Mr. Spea ker. We do not need a government that is going to surrender.

The only surrender they should do on this issue is surrender government and let the people change it. Mr. Speaker, our Health critic last year proposed a ban on violence in the media. We had an all-party House resolution again as another posi tive alternative of the New Democr atic Party , supported by all parties. What has happened to that resolution? Do we just put out press releases ? Do we just put out self -serving comments about it? What has happened with this? Did the minister take this to Ottawa with the new government? Did we take it to Ottawa with the old government?

The Premier has a spe cial relationship with the old Minister of Justice and the old Prime Minister. Was that the issue that was raised at the swearing-in ceremony, that $7,000 trip down to Ottawa with the former Prime Minister? What happened to these resolutions?

53 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11 , 1994 The fe deral government is meeting with the U.S. government now. The U.S. Congress is calling on a greater ban on violence in the media. Where is it? The public is saying, what are you doing about it? Do not give me the press conferences. Do not give me the press release s. Do something about it Let us just start doing something about youth crime and violence in our media instead of just talking about it. Mr.

Speaker, the whole issue of child poverty, the lack of jobs, the lack of dignity that results in -that too, we believe, is part of the whole issue of insecurity of work, insecurity at home, insecurity in our communities and which is leading to higher crime. Is it any sutprise that when we Americanize our economy and we Americanize our media that we are starting to get American increases in violent crime? I see the unfortunate correlation of a much more Darwinian society every day, much more of the survival of the fittest every day.

We are seeing that Darwinian philosophy in our economy resulting in greater Darwinian behaviour in our communities and unacceptable behaviour of crime on our stree ts. Mr. Speaker, the inse curity of work is a really important issue. The government talks about work as a secure issue, and yet it has created probably more insecurity than any other jurisdiction in the province of Manitoba in terms of work. The government 's race to the bottom is not working for Manitobans because Manitobans are not working, and it is clear.

On Friday there were questions raised by the Liberal Leader on the unemployment statistics and questions posed back by the Premier : this month is better than that month; this month is worse than last year- Don. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): The best in the country. Mr. Doer: The Minister of Labour says, it is the best in the country. There are less people working today than when this Minister of Labour took a seat in the Chamber in 1988. There are less people working today in his communities; there are less people working today right across Manitoba under this government.

Clearly, the month-to-month statistics, the week-to-week statistics, the announcements the Premier makes-he mentioned CPR today, and that is a good announcement today. We said that six months ago when they made it the first time . We said it a year ago when they mentioned it the time before that. •

(1450) But there is no mention in the Pre mier 's answer about the tragedy about how many jobs we have lost in the motive trades in the CPR. You go to the Weston Shops; you go to look at the locomotive jobs; you look at the running trades jobs. Those are higher paying jobs, and there are more of them we have lost in the last three years than what was made up before in the announcement today. · We congratulate the government on that tele marketing centre. It seems to us that telemarketing has been improved in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and New Brunswick. I would rather have a telemarketing job than no job at all.

We ll, I would remind the members opposite that in 1988 those members said, we will not buy jobs -in their Speech from the Throne-we will not use incentives to create jobs, and the question is, how muc h money is being spent for those telemarketing jobs in Brandon? Of course, Mr. Spea ker, I should not ask the members opposite how much money is going to be spent on the Jets with that deal that they sign. As a farmer said to me the other day, I should give my cows hockey sticks and then they can get a blank cheque signed by the Premier of this province .

You wa nt the ta xpayers to pay for Serge Sorokin's one-way contract to Moncton, go ahead. You def end it all you want, because we have always said, deal with the reality of the hockey team . Do not just drift and drift and drift with the operating losses being paid for by the taxpayers . We have said that from Day One and we will continue to say it again. Let us look at the record of this government over the six years. In 1988 the government said-and here they said it again-we do not believe in

Apri111 , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 54 handing out money in new grants and incentives. We will intensify our estimates on tourism, in marketing tourism, and less people coming today than in 19 88. We will deve lop northern Manitoba-y ou may be surprised to hear this-w e will develop northern Manitoba as a key of our ec onomic development and, further, our government is committed to having a co-operative arrangement with the federal government. That was their economic strategy in 1988. Just have to pick up the phone was the strategy, Mr. Speaker.

In 1989 the government said that our capital investment will be high. We are particularly proud of our great ec onomic ach ievement. Our government is particularly proud of the role that it is playing in attracting Wang Laboratories Imaging Centre to the province of Manitoba. Wang. Now how many jobs did that create, Mr. Speaker? How much money did we pay for Wang? Does the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Driedger) know? Does the former Minister of Health know? Does the former Minister of Finance know? This was their economic agenda in 1989. Wang.

I should tell you, for those who are new in this Chamber, that Wang reduced their commitments, took the money, did not produce back the results to the province of Manitoba, did not create the jobs. An Honourable Member: Where did they go? Mr. Doer: I do not know. I do not know where they went. But this is 1989, year two of the Tory drifting economic strategy. Year three, 1990, the Man itoba Conference Bo ard predicts that Manitoba will grow by double the national average. We will review and assess the progress to create smarter business regulation.

I think just last week they announced another committee to look at smarter business regulation, four years later. Now, what happened with their prediction in 1990 for 1991? Manitoba was in last place. Dead last. We were the dead-last government in terms of economic performance. We did not go up above the national average. We went down below the national average, Mr. Speaker. We were in last place in 1991, and all the predictions they made again in 1990 for 1991 were the opposite direction.

This is what you said; this is what happened I know the Tories do not like bottom lines, because the bottom lines are not very, very positive. In 19 91, we will increase our efforts-they aimed at strengthening our economy that would provide more jobs for Manitobans. Job creation will be our foremost goal of economic agenda. Well, there are less people working today than in 1991 when you made this statement. They said in 1991- listen to this, this is what you said. I guess you think that nobody is going to read this stuff back to you.

In 1991, this is in the Speech from the Throne-these are not even the cute answers we get in the Chamber-in 1991 you said, the effects of lower interest rates and a moderated dollar should end the recession by this summer of 1991. Not my words. Your words. Mr. Speaker, 17,000 less people working today than 1991, and the former Minister of Finance says, wonderful work. Mr. Speaker, in 19 92, the government was smarter. The government was smarter in the 1992 Speech from the Throne. The wily old coyote from Emerson must have had something to do with it. You know what the government did in 1992?

They took the word "job" out of the Speech from the Throne. When they have taken the jobs out of the economy, then you take the word "job" out of the Speech from the Throne. So that is what they did in 1992. They did not bring forward any jobs in the Speech from the Throne, but here we go, here is the key part of their economic strategy that year: We are going to bring forward plans for the application ofVL T revenues to promote economic development throughout the province of Manitoba in 1992.

Of course, in 1991, they said all proceeds from rural VLTs will go to rural economic development, but in 1992 flip-flop, flip-flop, in terms of what they are going to do, Mr. Speaker. So there is where I say, you are right, you have expanded gambling in the province of Manitoba. You have had that as one of the economic engines of your so-called government. [interjection] I think that is the same year the Tupperware plant closed and the minister, former [interjection] Yes, thanks. The fact that the jobs are now in the United States I

55 LEGISLATIVE ASSE:MBL Y OF MANITOBA April 11, 1994 guess does not bother the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae). Mr. Spe aker, in 19 92, we also had the six conditions ofNAFTA. Oh, he should listen to this, because I want to talk about NAFT A. We are very disappointed that by 1994, the government has folded on all six conditions of NAFT A and, of course , the Liberal Party has folded on those same six conditions. They did not even have any conditions. They said they wer e opposed to NAFTA.

I actually thought that Jean Chretien 's promise that we cannot all ow for the energy provisions that have been sold out by Mulroney to Bush should never be implemented and the trade agreement with Mexico should be amended to protect Canada's energy and to give Canada a sovereign energy policy just like obtained by the country of Mexico in the F ree Trade Agree ment-of course, we saw the same flip-flop unfortunately from the fe deral Liberals as we saw from the provincial Conservatives in this are a, Mr. Speaker. Very disappointing, I might say. So, Mr.

Speaker, in 1993 we did not have a Speech from the Throne because the government did not come back in 1993. Of course, in 1994 we see today the government saying again, it is the seventh Speech from the Throne , jobs is the No. 1 priority of this government. Well, less people working today than when you got elected in 1988-less peop le. When we look at the government 's economic agenda and, you know, if you look through the '80s, from 1982 to 1988 there were 37,000 new jobs cre ated-3 7 ,000 jobs. Some years it was 5,000, some years it was 7 ,000, but 37,000 jobs in the economy.

There were more people working than when Lyon left office. Mr. Speaker, the government has said that their ec onomic strategy is to give tax breaks to companies and that will in tum create jobs. You know, I remember the 1988 election. The Premier said, I am going to get rid of the payroll tax in four years and that will create all kinds of economic opportunities, and then the Liberals said, oh, that is not good enough. We are going to get rid of the payroll tax in three years. Well, you cannot have it both ways. The Tories have been consistent.

They have given away $90 million in corporate taxes, and that has been re duced from spending in health and educatio n-- $90 million. Mr. Speaker, $90 million has been given away in taxation to create jobs and there is less money today. There are less people working today than [interjection] Well, if you had created jobs you would have an argument. There are les s peo ple working today under your trickle -down theory than there were when you were elected in 1988-$90 million more and less people working today than in 1988. •

(1500) Mr. Speaker, I know there is a lot of edginess across the way to reduce taxation by $90 million and to have less people , 3,000 less people working today. You cannot even say each job costs a million dollars. If there were 90 more people working today, you could say, well, it costs us $1 million per job. We cannot even say that in the province of Manitoba, because there are less people working today than when these people were sworn in with such great self -ser ving promises from the government. Cle arly its trickle-down theory of economics does not work. (Mrs.

Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) I was actually very surprised when I saw the Liberals in their pre-election promises make the same promise as the Tories, making the same promise to give tax breaks to corporations, but I guess I should not be surprised, Madam Deputy Speaker, because UI has been cut by the fe deral Liberals , NAFTA has been proclaimed. I do not know what your position is on final offer selection. I heard the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) taking a different position than the member for St. James (Mr. Edwards).

The whole issue of the Liberal promises are exactly the same as the Conservative s-- tax breaks for corporations, trickle -down theor y-and it does not wor k because people do not work:. I guess we should not

Apri111, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 56 be surprised because we have seen NAFf A proclaimed, we have seen UI being cut, we have seen a whole issue of the cruise missile . I remember I could not get near the banne rs to ban the cruise missile when I used to go around with liberals. At least the Tories do not show up at the peace marches, but the liberals show up and then they fly the missiles over Canada You know you could not even get near the ban the cruise missiles, the banners, for liberal s. You could not even elbow your way; they were too close to the banner.

But I just noticed a couple of weeks ago that cruise missiles were zipping across Canada, and I guess that was another promise that went down in flames, so to speak, from the liberals , but I do support the-[ inte rjection] I have got to say to the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux)-and I am glad we have a little break here in the action, so to speak. I cannot say anything else about this, but I am glad that I heard the member for Inkster supporting final offer selection with some of the workers in his own constituency a little while ago.

Boy, did we have a tough time from the management lawyer when he was taking away workers ' rights between '88 and 1990 in telDls of the final offer selection. I guess that was not a conflict of interest Was it? I guess that was not a conflict of interest, but I support the member for Inkster's position on it, not the member for St. Jame s's position on that issue, and I will say so when we have a little bre ak in the action. We are ple ased that Lloyd Axworthy brought in final offer selection to end the dock strike at the West Coast.

It was interesting they used a creative idea from the past Maybe the Liberals should get into the future instead of always dealing in the past Madam Deputy Speaker, the whole issue of sm all business promise s, again, another alte rnative, the NDP has proposed that we have change in

an act oflegisla tion from the member for Flin Flon (M r. Stori

e) on small business regulations. This government promised to change the small business regulation environment in this province in 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993 and 1994, and what do they do? They created a committee a couple of weeks ago to deal with it, a committee chaired by the eminent Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey), you know, never met an issue be could not deal with, just set up a committee and give us some rhetoric. Six yea rs and seven speeches later this is what they do on small business regulation. I mean, the work was done seven years ago by the former minister and the member for Flin Fl.on. We will do your work for you. We will bring in

an act; we will bring in the alte rnatives; we will do the work. We will not wait for the drifting Tories across the way. Madam Deputy Speaker, there are some seriou s fe deral budge t issues that we have to deal with. The fe deral government is dealing now with the so-called abolition of the GST. I do not think an abolition of the GST is to change the name of the GST or to widen the base of the GST to include food or to bury it. I would make a suggestion to the government. I heard the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stef anson), quoted at a Finance ministers' meeting on a radio show, saying that we are not interested on the re ve nue side of spending for the government; we are interested in the expenditure side. I think he should look, and I think we should always look at both sides of the equation. Canada now has the second highest personal income tax rate of the G-7 countries. That is why we voted for parts of the 1989 budget.

The whole issue of corporate tax fairness-n ow I know this gets people excited across the way, but Canada now has the lowest corporate tax rate , the most unfair corporate tax rate, again, of the G-7 countries. We would encourage the government because last year they said, we do not tax, but they increased property taxes , which is a real major issue for people in a very unfair way. We are not going to tax children's clothing, and we are not going to tax-what else?-books, but, of course, the provincial sales tax has been expanded. The Premier's (Mr.

Filmon) own briefing notes said that the tax increases last year were the equivalent of 5.7 percent of personal income tax

57 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11, 1994 because he knows that the personal income tax rate in the province only produces $17 million per percent. Because there are so many loopholes on page 1, by the time you get to page 2, there is no -and I would encourage the government. I know they are going to keep the rate at the same lev el. I agree with them; it should not be increased. We should look at the whole issue of the Auditor General's report on fair taxation. We should not have to only look at one side of the equation. I think that Canadians want to see fair taxation.

I think the liberal federal government was, to some degree, elected on the promise of abolishing the GST, and abolishing the GST does not mean hiding it or burying it or broadening it. We believe that dealing with the GST is dealing with that tax unfairne ss. We would encourage all parties to look at that part of the equation because I do not believe we can get any relief on the one hand for people and get any fairness in spending until we deal with the fundamentals of our revenue side.

Auditor General Kenneth Dye had a number of recommendations on how to make the tax system fair, and we would encourage the government to look at that. Madam Deputy Speaker, in terms of dealing with the federal government, we wish the government well in terms of federal-provincial relations. We truly believe that the federal government is important for Manitoba, and it is important to work with the federal government. We believe Manitobans want co-operation with the federal government.

I wa nt to sa y that Manitobans do not want any political party to do the hallelu jah chorus if the federal Liberal government shafts the people of Manitoba. •

(1510) I wouldjoin with the Conservatives in terms of the decision to announce the inf rastructure program in Quebec, first with the convention centre , to have the NAFTA centre placed in Montreal without any consideration for Manitoba, Madam Deputy Speaker. We do not need people to do the hallelujah chorus every time something goes into the province of Quebec. We need fairness in our co-operation with the federal government. We do not need one province getting preference. Madam Deputy Spea ker, we are with the government on the issue of tobacco taxation.

To us it was wrong that the federal Liberal government acquiesced the smuggling and acquiesced to the situation in Quebec. We would call on the Premier to hold firm, and I know he will, on this issue at the border. I know it is causing problems-that is the amount of seats you won in the by-ele ctions, I would say, zero. I would thank the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey). I was getting too nice in my comments. I was glad he reminded me of what the people said a few months ago. He is always good for a reminder here and there, a heartbeat away. What can I say?

Madam Deputy Speaker, we were absohitely opposed to the change in tobacco smoke pol icies. The U.S. Surgeon General has just produced an excellent report dealing with tobacco smoke. The U.S. Surgeon General has said that there is a price sensitivity for young people. There is a price sensitivity that allows young people to smoke if the price goes down. If we care about young people, we will condemn the federal Liberal government move. We will call it for what it is, antihealth, anti-Canada. Let us get Chretien to rescind that change. Let us not acquiesce the smuggling.

Let us stand up for good health care policies, and let us roll back that policy on tobacco smoke, which is absolutely unnecessary in terms of this province. I want to also speak for a moment about the infrastructure program. For the last six years we have called on a national infrastructure program, particularly after 1990, when the private sector decreased its spending and the public sector was in a state of acute protracted restraint, particularly in Manitoba.

The infrastructure program was a program, I believe, developed by the former mayor of Vancouver, one Mike Harcourt, now the Premier of British Columbia, and the former deputy mayor of the City of Winnipeg, now the Minister of Culture in Manitoba, one Mr. Ernst, or the member for Charle swood, rather. I think it was a good idea.

April ll , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 58 We tried to get de Cotret to agree to it in 1987 and '88. Their answ er always was that they would prefer to have direct investments where they bad, I would argue, more patronage control, but they would argue more control directly rather than having the tripartite system of municipalitie s, communities and provincial governments working together. I am glad this program has started, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I really want to emphasize that we must have fairne ss in the implementation of this program .

Already some people are saying to me that this is the Linden woods accord. You know, people going to Lindenw oods get the major investment of this program, and people up north are getting nothing. People in northern Manitoba have got very little investment in their infrastructure. If the fe deral government says that high unemployment across Canada will mean higher investment in certain province s, why would it not follow then that higher unemployment in the North in an aboriginal community would result in higher investments, Madam Deputy Speaker, in those remote northern communities?

We think that aboriginal people have been really shortchanged on this program , $2.5 million for aboriginal people in Manitoba. It will barely pay for one minor program in one of the 65 communities. The North has been shaf ted. [inter je ction] Well, the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey) says, where is Elijah Harper? Madam Deputy Speaker, this is supposed to be a program not between patronage politicians but between municipalitie s, the prov incial gove rnment and the fe deral government.

I do not think we should accuse any politician. [interjection] Yes, he did, Madam Deputy Spe aker, to your Minister of Northern Affairs six weeks ago, and we got nothing from this minister. But now we see the transparent policies of the Conservative government: blame Elijah Harper, blame somebody else. The member for Tuxedo is the Premier for the whole pro vince. Do not just put money into Tuxedo, stand up for the whole province. People in rural Manitoba, Madam Deput y Speaker, are also concerned about the fairness of the program.

They have already asked me why there is $1 million for the Southport swimming pool and no money for other recreational programs across the province. Many communities have been told by the provincial government, there would not be any money for recreational program s. Now maybe I am wrong, but is a swimming pool in Southport for $1 million, is that a recreational program? I know it is not an educational program.

So here we have the spectacle of lifeguards being cut five years ago out of northern Manitoba and swimming pools being built in southern Manitoba, and other communities such as Dauphin and other northern communities being told that there is no such thing as community recreation facilities. Madam Deputy Speaker, this is a government that is now promising a new Core Area agreement. We hope that takes place.

I was resp onsible for negotiating the last Core Area Agreement and responsible for negotiating The Folks takeover and the public ownership of The Folks, which, I think, bas been a public asset that all of us app reciate . We bad a good board of directors in terms of planning that development which did not allow-we bad good board of directors advisory groups on some of the entrepreneurial programs and social programs. The member for Osborne (Ms. McCormick) was on one of those committee s, I recall, and briefing us on some of the stuff, the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen).

Truly a nonpartisan government in those days-Del Crewson was on that body. It was a nonpartisan body when we were dealing with these challenges . But I wish the government well on the Core Agreement, and, again, I hope it deals with the whole issue of a lack of an urban aboriginal strategy, an urban training strategy dealing with the tremendous challenges we have in urban Winnipeg for that Winnipeg development centre. I hope we do not see another Lindenwoods accord.

I hope we see real investment in real people for real futures, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I wish the government well two years later in this prop osal.

59 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11, 1994 Madam Deputy Speaker, I could go on about the economy and the deficit. Suffice it to say that we were 40 percent off two years ago on our deficit the other way-some $742 million real deficit according to the auditor-and we are going to be off again 20 to 25 percent this year. I find it rather curious that Saskatchewan that budgeted $285 million in a deficit the '93-94 fiscal year, with the same equalization changes, could come in at 283 and this government that budgeted 360 is going to come in around 460, 470, 480.

I guess the one lesson is that when you listen to Grant Devine or you listen to the member for Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon) or when you listen to the fo rmer Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, the one lesson you get is do not listen to them in terms of the deficit because what the auditor produces in terms of the deficit is a lot diff erent from what the government produces in terms of the deficit. Madam Deputy Speaker, the whole issue of welf are: $200 million now. This comes to the second economic initiative of the government; $200 million more being spent on social assistance than when they were first elected-per year.

And this is the problem in your deficit. You have numbers of thousands of people that are now on social assista nce not spending mon ey, not purchasing goods, not moving forward -$200 million. And you say to everybody, oh, we are not going to make woik, and we are going to cut back the training, so you have to make welf are programs. You would rather have people on welf are than woik. For six years in a row this government has drif ted and drifted and drifte d on the social assistance area.

Six years of absolute lack of perf ormance, close to a billion dollars in extra spending on social assistance since you have been in office, and what do you have to show for it? Less people woiking today than when you came into office. Your ideological stand on not getting people off of welfare onto work for six years, I think, has been a disaster. Your ideological position to cut back student social allowance. It makes more sense to get people trained and onto careers than it does to cut people back. Your ideological stands on ACCESS and New Careers does not have any sense at all for those of us on this side.

Now we hear the government is going to do something about the whole issue of single mothers. The first thing you can do with single mothers, the most important program for single mothers is child care and daycare. This government has made it much more difficult for average and poor fam ilies to have access to daycare.

I do not have any problems with people that are accessing daycare that have the means to pay more-that is the way the system was structured-but I have a great deal of difficulty with you, the Tories, making it much more difficult for average and poor fa milies that cannot afford daycare, Madam Deputy Speaker. That is the most important social program to get single mothers woiking rather than having the situation where they stay on welf are. * (15 20) Read the Chamber of Commerce report in 1986.

You will see in that report, and I remember reading it, that they say that investment in daycare is not a cost, but it is actually a revenue generator, because you get greater personal income tax through more people woiking. More people working results in greater productivity, greater consumer confidence and greater confidence in proceeding. I would make one suggestion to our Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson).

The poor people of this province, people that are below the means and average people that are having trouble making ends meet-keep child care, particularly for single mothers, available and accessible. If higher income people have to pay more, fine, but do not have our universal child care system decimated by Tory cuts to the lowest and most vulnerable in terms of our society. Be fair on child care and you will be fair to single mothers and people that are struggling to make ends meet. Madam Deputy Speaker, we have to now look at the environmental proposal on the economy.

I already agreed with the government in terms of the NAFr A centre. All we are asking for in terms of sustainable development-it is very, very common

April ll , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 60 sense-we want neighbours to be able to treat neighbours with dignity. We want one neighbour that is worried about a future job, and that is a legitimate concern, to be able to get that job, and we want the other neigh bour to know that whe n that one individual gets a job, that the other individual's health will not be pre judiced by that decision. All we are asking for in all these difficult decisions is, do not try to play jobs against health, jobs against sustainable development. We agree with the government 's theory on susta inable development.

All we are asking you to do in all these crucial decisions is balance the job that one neighbour wants to get and needs to get with the hea lth of another neighbour. Make sure the assessment is independent, make sure it is thorough, and let us proceed with jobs and dignity in a healthy and strong environment. [interjection] Well , we are dealing with six years of government record, so it will take a little longer than past years. Madam Deputy Speaker, we have talked about the economy, less people worlring today than when the government came to office. Let us look at their whole record on health care.

Now, this is really, really interesting. In 1988 the government said, we will free ze all hospital care bed cuts and all the changes to day surgery, out surgery; all the programs on home care, we will freeze those and we will not cut any beds. They drifted past the 1988 and 1989 year into a majority government situation in 1990 and, of course, they did not tell us at all what they were going to do in health care after that. As John Crosbie used to say, Lord, if they knew what we were going to do, they would never elect us. Well, I guess that is the same case in terms of the Conservative government on health care.

So then for two more years the government sat back and did nothing until they tabled a so-called health reform package in 1992. Now, this was called an action plan . Remember that. Yes, the action plan. No dates, no times, no places, no action, just absolute rhetoric in that document. Nobody can disagree with the theory of it, but there was no action plan in that document at all. Madam Deputy Speaker, the government, through their Speeches from the Throne, would say, we are going to do this, we are going to do that. Oh, yes , in 1988, they were going to implement a smart card.

Yes, in 1988, you were going to implement a smart card for prescription drugs. An Honourable Member: I remember that. Mr. Doer: Do you remember that? They prom ised it again in 1990, a smart card. An Honourable Member: They promised it this year. Mr. Doer: Is it in this year's Speech from the Throne again? An Honourable Member: It is supposed to be an April ! starting date . Mr. Doer: April 1 starting date . Has that already passed? The Pharmacare card is already passed. Drift, drift, drift. I wonder what the Premier does all day. I mean, I do not know what he does in his office . He does nothing.

He gets promises and pro mises and pro mises, and we get drift, drift, drift We do not get any action on these things. The government, after making all their flowery comments-1991, war on drugs, there it comes again: we are going to have another war on drugs. We are going to move towards more health care promotion, illness preventio n, disability post ponement, refocused health system, 1992. We are going to have more emphasis on community-based care, 1991. Manitobans will have an opportunity to choose lower cost but equally effective health care services in their communities where they live , where they work.

That was 1991. Madam Deputy Speaker, they are so desperate for an idea that in 1993 they had to hire Connie Curran to give them the plan that they never had in their so-called plan in 1992. Six years, you are behind every other province in terms of changes to our health care system. You are so far behind B.C. and Saskatchewan after they have been in office a year and a half or two years that you cannot even begin to count the ways in which you have no t developed health care. [interjection] Madam Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

61 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April11 , 1994 Mr. Doer : Madam Deputy Speaker, this government's only health care initiative was to hire Connie Curran and to change the Ministers of Health when the heat was on. In 1993, they hire Connie Curran. The Premier approves the hiring of a $4-million U. S. consultant. The Premier approves that this consultant would not have to pay any Canadian or Manitoban taxes. The Premier will not even table the reports that this individual has written, and this has been the health legacy of the Filmon government after five years in office, and now the sixth year in office.

On Friday, the Premier could not even answer how many of the 1,500 are going to be laid off and, more importantly, what is the impact on patient care after all the other lay-offs. The Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) said that we are exaggerating. It is his report. The former Minister of Health used to read the reports and deny what was in them. This Minister of Health does not even read the reports before he denies what is in them. Look at what is going on. The rural facilities do not know what their funding is going to be. They have heard you are going to drift past the next election.

Look at just one example in mental health, and this is one of the better programs the gover nment has been dealing with. The government builds a $45-million mental health facility at the Health Sciences Centre. Then they close half the beds at St. Boniface Hospital, and there is a real trauma going on with the community-based beds that are closing at St. Boniface, Victoria and Grace hospitals. Last month the Bell-Wade Report came out. Apparently that is another report that the Minister of Health did not read. I guess he does not read a lot of things except his press clippings.

But he did not read the report, he could not comment on the report, Madam Deputy Speaker, and what we find out is that after they closed the beds at St. Boniface Hospital they are now recommending that the beds be reopened at St. Boniface and the psychiatric beds be closed at a $45-million Health Sciences Centre facility. Now, does this Premier have any control of the health care system? He changed the health care program. We saw somebody go from a suit to a sweater in the by-elections.

We saw somebody say, we are going to put a pause on all of these things, a pause on all the terrible cutbacks being made by the Filmon government under the former Minister of Health. Now under the Filmon government under this Minister of Health we are going to put a pause on everything. But we still do not know what is being paused, and we still do not know what is happening.

I would suggest that if the people of Manitoba vote Tory they are voting for the Americanization of their health care system, the Americanization of Connie Curran's health care system, and th!it is why we will take it to the doorstep at every way of the way. • (15 30) When we go to drift, drift, drift, we have got to go to education. Madam Deputy Speaker, 1988, the new, blue Tory government: My government is committed to consultations with parents, teachers and school administration on the important issues of home schooling, parents' rights and curriculum review.

Now, what have we done over seven years now on this issue? We are going to have a parents' forum. They have not been able to sit down with parents for six years, and now they are going to have a parents' forum six years later. Drift, .drift, drift. One Minister of Education to another Minister of Education to a third Minister of Education, and what do we get out of them? A parents' forum. Now, that is action, is it not? That is performance from the Filmon educational agenda. Madam Deputy Speaker, we are going to get well-educated people. We will be introducing Workforce 2000 .

In 199 1 we will provide equitable opportunities for all Manitobans to develop skills and knowledge. We will increase our efforts dealing with literacy. We will have major initiatives dealing with our community

April ll , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 62 colleges and school boundaries. We will promo te distance education and distance tech nologies. And again in 1991: We will release a five-year plan on all facets of the education system, and we will proceed with a review of the boundaries and universities. Of course, that was announced two years later, to have a review on the boundaries. It took them two years to appoint Bill Norrie to chair a Boundaries Review Commission. Now, I like Bill Norrie; I have dealt with him as Minister of Urban Affairs.

But I think with the sensitivity in rural Manitoba, it really does not make a lot of common sense to app oint a former mayor of the City of Winnipeg to be the chair of boundaries that have so much implications and so much importance , particularly for rural Manitoba in terms of their democracy , their say and their input into the education system. I would appoint Bill Norrie to a lot of things, and he is a fine person, but I would have thought, with the sensitivity in rural Manitoba, that this is one body that should have, among other bodies, a northerner or a rural person appointed to that body.

So here we are six years later. Last year, of course, we had-I want to read these things into the record. I know the government does not want to hear their words from the past: education is the key to unlock all our future opportuniti es. What have they done? Our education program, who are the winners and who are the losers? If you are a bartender at a golf course going for training, you have a corporate tax break or a corporate training grant.

If you are a New Careers student, if you are an ACCESS student, if you are a Winnipeg education student, if you are a student allowance recipient, if you are a person receiving in the public education system and a part of the public education system, you have not got a grant from this government. You have not got fair treatment. The priority of this government has been to spend close to $12 million on those who have, rather than giving support for those who do not have .

Ba rtenders and bartender training programs get a higher priority than the public education system, than the education program in the province of Manitoba. I do not have any problems with bartenders. I like golf courses, even though I do not do very well at them . I suggest to you on the Conservative side that, with the priorities of cutting back New Careers to give money to corporate community grants, the priority of cutting community colleges, which totally belies the Roblin report, by over 10 percent, you do not know where you are going in education.

You are cutting off the people who need the programs the most and giving to people like Bob Kozminski who need it the least. Madam Deputy Speaker, this is a very unfair education policy , and the people know it. Yes, there are tough choices to be made, but you people have not made tough choices. You have made very unfair choice s. You have hurt aboriginal people and the people who need the greatest support -drift, drift, drift. You cut the Distance Education and Technology Branch back; you cut the Curriculum Services Branch. Any move to try to invest in our future has been cut back by this government.

When I meet with school boards and school officials-we were just in Stonewall last week meeting with school peop le, they tell us about the difficult choices being made. Their enrollment is going up; their funding is going down; and they cannot understand why private schools are being enhanced, private schools that are being supported by the Liberals and the Tories. [interjection] Where are you on private schools now? An Honourable Member: Oh, I am going to talk about it. Mr.

Doer: Oh, you are going to talk about private schools, because I know that, when the Tories promised to go to 50 percent for independent schools , the Liberals promised to go to 80 percent for independent schools, and so the Liberals outbid the Tories. I always thought it was rathe r curious, but I he ard that the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) again has flip-flopped on this issue on private schools. I guess they have changed their

63 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11 , 1994 position on funding to private schools. We have gone from the flip-flop Tories to the flip-flop Liberals. An Honourable Member: It bothers you too, I will bet. Mr. Doer: It does not bother me. Madam Deputy Speaker, these are just some of the examples of the bread-and-butter issues. We are further behind today than we were when the government was elected. We have proposed a number of alternatives throughout this address of mine. I think there are other major issues that are not just-[interjection] The member is not listening. Cancel the cotporate training grants.

Cancel the cotporate training allow ances. Put that money into co mmunity colleges. Put that money into ACCESS. Put that money into New Careers. Put that money into Student Social Allowances. Put that money back to people rather than your cotporate friends over the way. There are other broader policy issues that this go vernment must deal with. The so- called info nnation highway is another very major issue. I thought it was very unfortunate this government sold the Manitoba Data Services. [interjection] Well, the head office is now in Regina. The NDP thanks you for your job benevolence, Madam Deputy Speaker.

We have got jobs here, there is no question about that. I will acknowledge that, but the head office is now in Regina, and the fonner Minister of Finance should acknowledge that. An Honourable Member: What do you want, jobs or head office? Mr. Doer: I want both, because that is what we had before, Madam Deputy Speaker. Branch-plant Donny, you know-we do not need branch-pl ant Donny over here. That is why we lost our jobs bef ore. We want the head office and the branch office here in Manitoba. That is why we are different than the Conservative Party.

Look at this whole issue of the policy issue of the infonnation highway. Now we had the priv ilege of announcing the inf onnation highway with the fibre optics in 1987. God, it has been announced, reannounced and reannounced by every telephone official and every go vernment mi nister that has com e along, including me, Madam Deputy Speaker, but this governm ent-[inte rjection] While the Li berals are in fa vour of the deregulation of telephones, I will read Sheila Fine stone 's position on this. It is different than your position. I am not sure what your new position is, but if the member fo r Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) wants to heckle, he better tell us what his position is on the telephone deregulation. Because, is it the federal position now in Ottawa or is it the provincial position that he alleges is here in Manitoba; or is it Reg Alcock's position, which was to privatize the Manitoba Data Services? Three different positions. It is the Xerox party of Manitoba , the Liberal Party. Xerox Ster ling Lyon's promise on sales tax. Xerox the NDP promise on the minimum wage. Xerox something else from somewhere else. The Xerox party of Manitoba is the Liberal Party.

Every time we want to change our position, just Xerox another position and table it before the people of Manitoba. The only thing they need is a Xe rox machine, Madam Deputy Speaker, and a red ribbon to change their position. That is what we need here from the Liberal Party. Madam Deputy Speaker, let me deal with this infonnation highway in tenns of alternatives.

We believe that with the merger of voice data and video, and you can see that with the two major companies in the United States, the ITT and AT&T -the At&T now has 20 percent of ownership in a phone com pany now competing in Manitoba -that we should look at the public policy debates of the electronic highway. The Distance Education report from the provincial government says that the Manitoba Telephone System should take a major leadership role in the whole provision of the information highway.

I can understand that, because an educator told me today the Premier is going around making a number of promises on the infonnation highway, but the head, a very major head, of an education facility told me that the infonnation highway and the electronic highway

Apri1 11 , 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 64 in Manitoba is equivalent to a goat path because the Tories have no vision and no idea of what they want to do with the telephone system and the educational programs. ...

(1540) So our vision is quite different than the Conservative vision. We agree with Harry Eons when he formerly said, the member for Lakeside , that the highway should be a public highway like the highway system. We should have the electronic highway system owned by the public, Madam Deputy Spea ker.

Yes, there can be consumer decisions at the local level, at the individual level, like we have with cellular teleph ones, but we see an electronic highway that allows us to take the re venues from consumer purchases and allows us to take the investments in cablevision and the electronics in video and data and move those revenues on and reinvest in our education system. That is the alternative we see rather than the continued privatization and decimation of some of the tools of our economic development.

We see the data services, the telephone system , cablevision, working in concert with the whole issue of public education. We see a co-ordinated strategy. We do not see the decimation of the Distance Education branch. We do not see the decimation of the Curriculum Branch. We want to invest in our future here in Manitoba with Manitoba instruments . We do not want to sell them to companies that are located in New Jersey or companies that are located outside the borders of this province. We want to have our own vision, our own future and our own investment that we can rein vest in our own young people.

That is the difference between the NDP and the goat trail of the Conservative Party across the way. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) Mr. Speaker, we believe in a co-ordinated approach to home care with partnership. We believe in an enhanced role as an alternative with nurses, not just a preferential role with doctors. We see a change in the drug patent law that the Liberal Opposition promised under C-91 in the last fe deral election. We see fair funding for our education system. We see tax fairne ss being the key to the fe deral review of the GST and a comprehensive and fair revie w.

We see public business being co-ordinated, with the Auditor 's report being amended We see deals like the Jets deal and the Arcor deal being made public rather than being withheld from the public in terms of our investmen ts. Mr. Speaker, we see a vision of this province that has common sense, which has fairness, and which has an energy to get things moving again. We see a vision that creates jobs and gets more jobs and more people working. We see a vision that says, the people in education should get a fair choice .

If it is a choice between bartenders at a golf course and student social allowance or New Careers, you go with the student social allowance . You have no choice. The Premier cannot just get high accolade s from his buddie s and cut back the people that need a bridge . The Tories have cut back every bridge to opportunity, whether community colleges, whether it is student social allowance , ACCESS programs, every bridge to opportunity. They have bombed those bridge s, and a New Democratic vision is to rebuild those bridges to give people a hand up rather than a corporate handout as we see from the Conservativ es.

Mr. Speaker, we see a health care system that goes from chaos to predictabili ty, that we have change , and we see more than the Tory vision of gambling and welfare increases. We see a province that is much fairer and better to deal with. We see money from welfare being moved into work and small business. We see job corps, job strate gy , money from Workforce 2000 to community colleges, a patient bill of right , a northern patient transport fee elimination, a renewal of our Home Care Program. We see fair funding for our public schools. We would restore the New Careers Program. We would have stricter gun controls.

We would have a comprehensive antipoverty approach. We would improve benefits for our part-time people, and as we promised bef ore, we would improve the minimum wage. We

65 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Aprilll , 1994 would restore the designated funding for Handi Transit, as was in existence in 1989. We would work in true partnership with our northern and aboriginal people. Therefore, I move, seconded by the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie), TII AT the motion be amended by adding to it after the wold "session" the following wolds: But this House regrets: 1. that there are fewer people working today than in March of 1988; 2. that with the massive increases in the welfare rolls in Manitoba and the highest child poverty rate in the country, since 1988 welfare expenditures have increased by $200 million; 3 that by cutting training and education opportunities and failing to offer a jobs strategy for Manitoba youth this government has failed to offer hope to young Manitobans; 4. that this government has hired U.S. health consultant Connie Curran whose proposals would further reduce the level of patient care across Manitoba; 5. that this government has failed to challe

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-5-3a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 5th hansardpdf 3a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	0e8b93699f8d624aa644260473dfa45c152e96bb

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