Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session VERBATIM REPORT Friday, March 9, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 23

March 9, 1973 The House met at 3:00 P.H. Mr. Speaker in the Chair, Tape 536 & 537 MR. SPEAKER: Order pleaae! I would like to welcome to the galleriea today thirty-one grade V atudenta from Vanier Elementary School on Ennia Avenue with their teacher Mia• Charlotte Green and thirty grade Vl atudenta from St. Lawrence School at Portugal Cove with their teacher Mr. P. Trask and one of the parents Mr. G. Somerton. On behalf of all the hon. members I welcome you to the galleries and trust that your viait is most interesting. REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES: HON. E.

MAYNAJU?(MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTS): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the statement of expenditures for the Newfoundland Marketing Board for the year ended March 31, 1972 and there are attached various amendments to regulations under the Natural Products Marketing Act, 1967. NOTICE OF MOTIONS: MR. P • S • THOMS : Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following resolution:

WHEREAS during the first session of the Thirty-sixth General Assembly the present administration saw fit to end the mothers' allowance, and

WHEREAS the present administration said that its primary reason for ceasing to pay this allowance to the mothers of school children was the fact that the Government of Canada intended to introduce the family income security progra11111e,and

WHEREAS both the Premier and the Minister of Finance said publicly that if the said programme was not introduced they would reinstate the mothers' allowance, and

WHEREAS the family income security programme was not implemented, and

WHEREAS the mothers of Newfoundland have need of this allowance to help to meet the expenses of sending their children to school, and JM - 1

WHEREAS the Government of Canada by changing the equalization formula has 1683

March 9, 1973 Tape 536 & 537 given the Government of Newfoundland an additional $24 million for the fiscal year beginning on April 1, 1973,

NOW THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that thi1 House regret that the preent administration have cancelled the mother ' allowance, and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that thi1 House further regret that the present administration have no plans to reinstate the mothers' allowance. MR. SPEAKER: I shall accept the hon. member's resolution under advisement and rule on it later. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: RON. DR. A.T. ROWE(MINISTER OF HEALTH): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the answer to question number thirty-two of February 23, number eighty-three of March 1, number eighty-five, eighty-seven and eighty­ eight, questions asked by the hon.

Leader of the Opposition. MR. E.M. ROBERTS(LEADER OF THE OPPOSITIO~: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Highways. In view of the fact that school children in the northern part of my constituency have now lost exactly one out of two school days from the beginning of February_ There were twenty days in February and there were nine or seven or eight in March school days and they have lost exactly half of them because of the fact the roads have been closed~ can_ the mini~ter tell the House, Sir, whether any arrangements can be made to ensure that this does not happen again?

I realize that weather conditions are not in the minister's control and I realize that his officials are making a great effort but really these children have now lost.from February l,half the time they should have been in school and this cannot go on really. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order please! RON. DR. T.C. FARRELL(M1NISTER OF TRA..~SPORTATION AND COMMUNICATION): Mr. Speaker, in answer to the hon. Leader of the Opposition,we,are doing our upmost. We have sent in approximately six pieces of equipment from 168,1 JM - 2

March 9, 1973 Tape 536 & 537 other areas. We hope that a little later, because we cannot take chances in other area  in cae of a audden now atorm, that we can get more equipment into that particular area which i• auffering very badly. I agree entirely with him and I agree with tho aeriouaneas of the aituation there and I am certainly doing my upmost to improve conditions there and will continue to do so as much as possible within the next period while these conditions prevail, Sir. MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary question.

We do appreciate what the minister and his officials are doing but would he undertake to see if a snowblower can be sent in? The problem is now that the snow is literally so high, I am told the snowbanks are fifteen or twenty feet high, that bulldozers and front-end loaders and graders are of no use in moving this snow. The only way to move it now is a snowblower that can blow it up over. DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, in answer to that question, my officials are looking into this. We have moved in one extra snowblower and the motor for another snowblower. We are trying to get more equipment of this nature.

I agree with the hon, the Leader of the Opposition in this because it is so high on the West Coast you have to actually see the conditions that are so b~d out th~re. I think he will agree with me on this. I personally,after twenty-three or twenty-four years, have never seen them quite so bad, I think apparently as far as recorded weather history for a company and I mention Bowater& in particular who I think initiated weather reports in the West Coast Area fifty years ago 1 this is a very serious situation I agree with him.

We are doing all we can and we will continue to do all we can and take his suggestions and try to do everything possible because this is true, that the snow is so high that it is difficult for ordinary equipment JM - 3 to move it backwards and a snowblower is the only thing. Unfortunately, there is a limit to the nU111b~r of snowblowers we have but we hope and 168~

March 9 1 1973 Tape 536 & 537 pray actually and seriously that we can get in there and do everything possible we can for these particular areas. JM - 4 MR. M. WOODWARD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Minister of Finance. In view of the fact that 140 employees of Labrador Linerboard, Goose Bay have petitioned Mr. Ingram,president of Labrador Linerboard. to have Mr. Stan Job reinstated as Woodlands manager at Goose Bay. can the hon. minister inform the House what course of action will be taken with regard to this petition? HON. J.C.

CROSBIE(MINISTER OF FINANCE): Mr, Speaker, the position is that the firm of Foresta! International Engineering Limited, thrir services as consultants to Labrador Linerboard Limited for the foreat operation up in Lab~ador has been terminated. Mr. Stan Job was an employee of Foresta! and he is therefore left because Foresta! has now been terminated after operating there for some ten months on behalf of the government and Labrador Linerboard so he will not be returning to that area. Labrador Linerboard Limited intends to manage the operation itself, The president of Labrador Linerboard, Mr.

Ingram, and several of hie officials are goinr, to Goose Bay and will be spending the next three days and next week and I think that everything will be well in hand. The prayer of the petition is not going to be answered, Mr. Job is terminated as is Foresta!, MR. WOODWARD : May I be permitted a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker? I think the employees of Labrador Linerboard at Goose Bay are not so concerned about having Mr.

Stan Job in the particular job but they are concerned about the continuity of the operation and they are concerned that with new employers coming in now there is going to be a disruption in services and I am concerned that there is going to be an additional cost to this province. MR. CROSBIE: I can assure the hon. gentleman that the problem of the woods operation in Labrador is one of the major problems of Labrador 1586

March 9. 1973 Tape .536 & .537 JM - 5 Linerboard Limited and that ::iB going to receive a lot of careful attention in the next few 1DOJ1ths. The cost of Dhtaining wood from there is very high and a major effort ~s going to be put in on that. After Mr. Ingram returns from Labrador he will be meeting with Mr. MacDonald and the people who sent the petition. I thlnk the position will be a lot clearer,but it 1• very much in our mi~d there is a problem and it is going to be attended to. MR. ROWE(U.N.): Supplementary to the questions asked by my hon. colleague: How does Mr. Donald Dick get into the picture now. Mr.

Speaker? Is he just representing the government itself or what? I saw him the other day in the building and that is what brought it to my mind. MR. CROSBIE: Hopefully we will be debating the whole situation of the Labrador Linerboard next week but the position - AN HON, MEMBER: Has Donald Dick got the flick? MR. CROSBIE: No. no, Donald Dick does not have the flick. I can suggest something for the hon.gentleman to flick but I will not, Now, Mr. Speaker, the position on Donald D. Dick 1 Conaulting Engineering Limited,ia that now that we have the preaUiant appointed, Mr.

Ingram,the chief executive officer and the full management of the Labrador Linerboard Limited is now appointed ,that Mr,, Dick's firm are now phasing out. They will be consultants to the management. They are no longer co-managers because ve now have the pei:manent management. The firm of Kates, Peat, Marwick and Company have phased out. They made their final report to us yesterday.

So the whole operation now is under the management of the president and the management echelon and Mr, Dick's firm will still be used there as consultants .because of their history for last year and they will still be working on the project but the management is now the president and the chief executive officers. MR. M. MARTIN: Hr. Spe•kar, I would like to direct• question to the hon. Minister of Highways. In view of the fact that extra snow clearing has been dispatched to the West Coast of the Island, the Straits Area, I 1687

March 9. 1973 Tape 536 & 537 would like the hon. minister to inform the House as to whether he is prepared to grant the same consideration to the people on the Labrador side of the Straits as he have to the people on the Newfoundland side of the Straits. DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, my officials are looking into this matter and I hope to have an answer on it very shortly. MR.. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon, acting Premier - No I see the hon. Premier is coming, Sir. I thought he was going to be absent from his seat again this afternoon but he is on his way.

So perhaps I will direct a question to the Minister of Social Services while I am waiting for the Premier to take his seat in the House. For the third day in a row would the hon. minister indicate to the House what is going to happen to the $30.00 JM - 6 a month provincial old age pension assistance when the federal government increases the old age pension in Ottawa? What will become of the $30.00 old age pension? HON. A.T. MURPHY(MINISTER OF SOCIAL ASSISTANCE): Mr. Speaker, the first day that was asked I gave the answer that you cannot say within an hour what is going to happen.

This is a complete change of policy. This question relates to a matter, and if I may give me a minute or two just to explain it. MR. NEARY: Take your time. Take the whole afternoon. MR. MURPHY: Well, at the present time 1688

I " March 9, 19 73 Page 1 - MRW --~ MR. NEARY You have the whole aftenioon, go :,ahead, If the honourable ani i~'n, ~-~ant _member is not going to (, 1l Do not be smart now. Give ua : the . aaaver. Order please: At the pr•~~nt time in _out" ~~'tup. ,' under the a••iatance plan, if we have two people aged sixty-four getting social assistance, .. - == ~~ they receive $150 per month _. Another instance, if one of these are over sixty-five receiving the old age asai~tance, they will receive ~ . . ' - ' $190 a month.

They are receiving H now be:cause of the fact that one is :, over sixty-five and there is an ex~ra special .- needs allowance of $40 !'.i - put on their allowance. The honourabie m~_er Jis referring now to a further increase of somet~'ing Uk~ $20 i>e'f" mo~th on the old age pensions. This will mean (this is being loo~ed at. ¥ery carefully) that a family with :: a wife say sixty-two and a husbanci' ' s -ixty-ffilre, receiving old age pensions, will receive $210 per month under : the ' cforiut that we have established now. They represent ten per cent of the total .-.clientele we have on long-term assistance.

We have 17,000 recipien _ts o'f , iotig-term assistance. There .. 4 •-i are 1,650 who will come under this iP,ecial .. b:racket that the honourable - . r.j ' ' - aember referred to. All right, what is the siory'l The fact of taking away something, IP 1) 1 I ' let us forget it because our departmen t gi vis. We do not take away. l ' • NEARY: You took away la;t year. -. ;.'.~ MR. MURPHY: We give for need. Order please: Ia the honourable. _membeta•peaking on old age assistance? Yes.

If a couple come ;~n (let me explain this) and they say, "we need old age assistance or we neid •~cial assistance.'' We say, "very good ait dovn. How D1uch income is coming int o -the family?" They will tell us. Then we will eay, "according to ou,r progra_~, here is what you should be receiving." lf the amount is $1,JO- tha:t they, 11,ehould be getting under the plan r: 1689 I - . ..: ' · .f!

March 9, 19 73 Tape no. 538 Page 2 the income is $130, then they will receive $20 to bring them up to $1S0. ls that clear? MR. NEARY: MR. MURPHY: No, it ia not. It is not clear. AN HON. MEMBER: It is clear to moat people but the intelligence - MR, MURPHY: All right. Those who have any sense, do they underatand it? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes! MR. MURPHY: Good. Basically, all I am getting at is this, Sir, that we have a pact coming up now where there is a promise (it has not come yet) of an increase in the old age pension that will affect 1,650, ten per cent of our long-term assistance recipients.

Now the question that the honourable member is asking is this: Will we permit this ten per cent, under our laws,to receive all the benefits? They will receive an income,no matter under what form,from the federal government and they will be allowed $210 per month;

whereas we have a family of sixty-four, sixty-three, whatever age, that only receive $150, In our opinion we will carry on as previously where there will be no deductions at the present time, If this is not, this will have to be considered. I am just putting the facts now that if there will be discrimination against ninety per cent who are bound to a certain income of $150 a month - will we say to the ten per cent, "your income can be $210 per month." Basically that is the answer.

It is a different route because the income - there is nowhere in the Social Assistance Act that I can see that has to differentiate where your income comes from, whether you are a fisherman, a labourer, a logger, whatever it is, it is income, it is dollars and cents that you have to spend. It is a great political thing for the honourable member to bring this up at this time. It is a great political thing. As far as I know any income coming to you was deducted as income, dollars and cents, no matter where you got this money. This is one thing that we are looking at.

The queation is being put out now in auch a form that the poor old age penaioner1 are going to get ~on~y and WQ aro tokln2 1t IIWAY, W~ ar• dolni 16~0

March 9, 1973 Tape no. 538 Page 3 no auch thing. All ve are doing - _MR. THOMS: (Inaudible). MR. MURPHY: All we are doing 1• looking at a need. We have Do eatablished salarie• for anybody under the aocial uaiatance progr&111111a. There are no salaries. ~11 we do is fill a need for income. If you need ia. as I said earlier. $150 per month. and you have no income. that is what you receive. If there is income· that b not allowable. of $20 a month, you get $130. Nov any more than that, I cannot explain. We have discussed thie thing. We did not wait for the hon. member for Bell Island to tell us all about thia.

We knew all this. I have been to the Premier and we have had meeting• on several occasions. I have submissions here ready now. We are not ready now to make the thing legal. That is the only queation. MR. THOMS: You did not have them a few days ago. MR. MURPHY: I gave the anawer to that when we were looking at the thing and when the policy was confirmed ve would announce it. That ia all I can say. If you look in Hansard. that was the answer I gave. I did not have to be asked the same question seven times because I give the same answer. That is the situation.

If the honourable member is aatisfied or if not, ask me something else and I will try and get the answer for him. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I thought I had forced the honourable gentleman to do his homework but I see that the honourable minister does not have a clue of what he is talking about.- not a clue, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: Order pleaee! If the hon. member for Bell Island is not going to ask a question. I suggest he sit down. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. the Premier.

Would the hon. the Premier indic&te to the House, what action if any the government have taken on a petition from concerned citizens concerning the downtown complex? MR. SPEAKER: Order please! I think that question could be put on the Order Paper. MR.. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it ia a matter of urgent public importance, Sir. 1691

March 9 • 1973 tape no. 538 Page 4 Mr. Neary. It has to be dealt with immediately. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The rule in this Bouse is when His Honour, the honourable Speaker,make  a ruling, the ruling ia complied with by all member• in this honourable House. KR. NEARY: Oh, sit down! MR. MARSHALL: The recourse - MR. NEARY: What is the point of order? MR. SPEAKER: Order please! HR. NEARY: What is the point of order, Mr. Speaker? HR. MARSHALL: The recourse of any honourable member is to appeal the ruling if he wishes to but otherwise he will comply with Your Honour's ruling.

Otherwise the proceedings will take its full course against the honourable member who is disregarding the rules. MR. NEARY: Bully boy! What are we going to have, a dictatorship in this House? MR. SPEAKER: Order please! AN HO~. MEMBER: We had that for twenty-three yeare,but no more. KR. SPUKER: Order please! I rule that the question of the hon. member for Bell Island be placed on the Order Paper. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I-abide by your ruling. I do not need anybody to tell me what the rules of this House are. I do not need these rookies to come in here, Sir, and tell me what the rules of the House. are. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to direct a question now to the Minister of Industrial Development. Would the minister indicate when an announcement will be made on the additional $7.4 million made available by DREE as loans to the province for make-work projects? When will the announcement be made on the other $7.4 million? MR. DOODY: Is the honourable member reading from a paper? la he going to table the paper? .AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • 1692

Much 9. 1973 Tape no. 538 Page 5 KIL. DOODY: I cannot afford it. 'lbeae are Tory time , Mr. Speaker. ?here ie • total of $12 million being ude av•Uable, Mr. Speaker, for a three-year period. It has been indicated to ua by the officials in Ottawa that 1f we are diligent and do our homework well and beco• efficient toward it in a 1114nner in which thev have not been familiar or accustomed to in the past, then they will hopafully make all these dollars available to us durtng 1693 .,

March 9, 1973 Tape No. 539 NM - 1 the current year. We have already succeeded in getting thia pretty close to - I do not have a copy of the paper here, but we are pretty close to $5 million, AN HON. MEMBER: $4.8 million. MR. DOODY: That is the advantage of a university education, you can whip off the decimal points like ao.

We have managed to get Ottawa's approval to liberate $4.8 million wort.h of funds for capital winter works projects, including,! might say, $100,000 for a sewerage expansion programme for the District of Bell Island, which I am sure the honourable member is duly appreciative of, But what other project could you possibly hope to achieve for the honourable member's district? I am sorry, that sounds as though I were being unkind to the people of Bell Island whom I have a great deal of affection for. It is their lack of judgement in elections that bothers me.

The rest of that $12 worth which we hope will be made available to the province is currently under negotiations. There are many projects under consideration by the federal government. As soon as the announcements are made and as soon as Ottawa makes the news available to us, we·will certainly extend the same co-operation to all members of this House as we did with the past $4.8 million and the public of Newfoundland will be so informed, We hope that it happens tomorrow.

It is extremely unlikely that it will happen that quickly but maybe a matter of days, certainly we hope to have further projects to announce within the next week or so. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, supplementary question - does Ottawa have a list of projects now or are they just being prepared by the province? MR. DOODY: No, even for a government and a bureaucracy as efficient as Ottawa is, they find it difficult to consider any applications unleRs they have a list of projects. They have been under consideration by the people in Ottawa for some time, they have been referred to the various 1694

March 9, 1973 Tape No. 539 NM - 2 departments, to Treasury Board, Cabinet, the due process is now undergoing or ongoing we should say,I auppose,really. The point is that those that were most quickly passed were the ones that we have made available so far. Others are currently under consideration and as they go through the due process they will be announced here. AN HO~. MEMBER: Passed on to Ottawa. MR. DOODY: Passed on to here, Ottawa has them. AN HON. Mt"MBER: Ottawa has them? MR.

DOODY: Oh absolutely, Ottawa could not consider them unless - we thought that everybody could understand that Ottawa could not consider them unless they had been made available to Ottawa for their consideration, Sir. MR. ROBF.RTS: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister indicate what proportion of the $4.8 million is or will be in labour I costs, that is the part that we do not have to repay. The $4.8 million of course are loans from Canada to Newfoundland, what percent - can the nainister estimate?Ie it one third, one half, what percentage of them may we hope not to have to repayt MR.

DOOnY: I would hope that we would not have to repay any of it, of course we will,by the agreement. I do not have the actual figures with me, I can get them worked up. Some of them are a great deal more labour intensive than others and we worked out a point system sort of thing whereby there were certain municipal buildings which seem to be a priority item for that particular municipality. That was not as labour intensive as some of the collDftunity stages and slipways and things that are so dear to the.hearts of the members for Forgo and Bonavista North.

The labour content on some of them is as high as eighty to eighty-five per cent, for PJome of them it is as low as fifty to fifty-five per cent. What the average is, I do not have with me right now but I would only be too happy to try to get our people to work it up and make it available to the House. • 1695

March 9, 1973 Tape No. 539 NM - 3 MR. ROBERTS: Well let me take that a tep further, Hr. Speaker, Would the minister when he has.gotten hi p~ople at it, perhaps what we could have is a list of the projects together with indications of the labour portion thereof and o forth and so on. MR. DOODY: Yes that is no problem, Sir. That is done in total listing. It has not been done on an average of all of them as such. If I can find the necessary documents this afternoon,! would only be too happy to make it available. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, would the minister also indicate what dates these projects are scheduled to commence? MR. DOODY: These various projects will start just as soon as the necessary liaison is done between the Municipal Affairs or Fisheries, the federal people and the various people involved. The money is available, the projects are approved, you can start tomorrow as far as I am concerned but there are certain forms and what not that have to be gone thro~~h. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for Bonavista South. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, before you call Orders of the Day, I beg leave to stand on a P~int of Pr~vilege regarding a statement made this morning on an open-line programme, a local open-line programme,by the honourable Leader of the Opposition.regarding a situation in Bonavista South. The statement made by the honourable Leader of the Opposition regarding a situation in Bonavista South. The statement made by the honourable Leader of the Opposition, in fact, is actually calling me a liar.

He stated that he had knowledge to the effect that there were going to be no new facilities Duilt at isonavista witn regard to a new hospital facility, that he had information co this effect. H~. 1696

March 9, 1973 Tape No. 539 NM - 4 MR. ~RGAN: went eo far ae to take bet with my constituents that this was not going to be so, that in actual fact the M.H.A. for the district was wrong, he was lying in saying there was going to be a new hospital I make the point of privilege to point out this is a falsehood. It is untrue and is nothing more than opposition propoganda. MR. SPEAKER: I would like to take that statement under advisement and rule on it later in the day. MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour I have been called a liar,may I say a ­ word in my own defence. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

ROBERTS: I know the honourable gentleman does not wish a word in defence but if Your Honour will allow me I would like to say a word. Is that in order? MR. SPEAKER: I would like to admit his statement first and get back to it later in the day at which time I will give the honourable Leader of the Opposition - MR. ROBERTS: He said I lied. Your Honour is going to make a ruling, is that what I understand?

OROERS OF-Ti:fE DAY: On motion of the honourable Minister of Justice, A Bill, "An Act To Make Certain Provisions Respecting The Reorganization Of The Government And The Public Service Of The Province And Respecting Mattera Connected Therewith Or Arising Therefrom," read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable Minister of Justice, A Bill, "An Act Respecting Proceedings Against The Crown," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, A BUl, "An Act To Amend The St. John's Housinr.

Corporation Act," read a !irat time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 1697

March 9, 1973 Tape No. 539 NM - 5 On motion of the hon~rable Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation, A Bill, "An Act Respecting The Welfare Of Neglected Adults, 0 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On lQOtion of the honourable Mr. Marshall, A Bill, "An Act Respecting A Public Service Commission For The Province.'' read a first time, ordered read a second time on t0111orrow. 1698

March 9, 1973 Tape 540 IB-1 On motion of the hon. Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation, a bill, "An Act Respecting Allowances For Certain People In Private Homes For Special Care," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the hon. Minister of Labour, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Elevators Act," read a first time, ordered rend a second time on tomorrow, On motion of the hon. Minister of Highways, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Highway Traffic Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the hon.

Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Disposal, Of Waste Material," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the hon. Minister of Social Servires and Rehabilitation, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Welfare Institutions Licensing Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole on certain bills, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. A bill, "An Act Respecting The Department Of Provincial Affairs And Environment." On motion clause (1) to clause (6) carried. HON. T.

ALEXANDER HICKMAN: (MINISTER OF.JUSTICE): I move an amendment to clause (7), (D), (

x) at the bottom of page (10), I move that the words as~ignments of book debts, of companies, of industrial and provident societies, of mechanics' liens, of private investment holding companies, of deeds, of partnerships and of securities be deleted. On motion clause (7) as amended carried. On motion clause (8) to clause (55) carried. MR, HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, I move the deletion from SCHF-DULE A: 2. The ARsip,nment of Rook Debts Act. ll. The Companies Act, 14. The Conveyancing Act. 20, The Industrial and Provident Societies Act. 33. The Mechanics' Lien Act. 1699

March 9, 1973 Tape 540 18-2 44. The Private Investment HoldinR Companies Act. 47. The Registratf.on of Deeds Act. 48. The Registration Of Partnerships Act, 1972. 53. The Securities Act. On motion

SCHEDULE A as amended carried. On motion

SCHEDULE B carried MR. HICKMAN: I move the deletion of the following items from SCHEntTLE C: 1. The Assignment of Book Debts Act under the wording under the amendment. 3. The Companies Act. 8. The Industrial and Provident Societies Act. 15. The "Mechanics' Lien Act. 18. The Private Investment Holdings Companies Act. 20. The Registration of Deeds Act. 21. The Registration of Partnerships Act, 1972. 25. The Securities Act. I also move the necessary renumbering arising out of these deletions. On motion

SCHEDULE C as amended carried. Motion that the Committee Report having passed the bill with amendments carried. A bill, "An Act Respectfnr, Homes For Special Care." 'P'!R. NF.ARY: Mr. Speaker, before you poss this hill - thnt waR left th<' other day by the minister when he said when he ia aller;ed to have announced that from now on the policy of the Rovernmcnt would be to deal with interfaith groups. 1~1s was the policy of the former administration, Sir, and the minister was only merely repeating what the policy was of the - but it was picked up by the news media and said, "from now on," which was not correct.

MR. CHAIR~AN: The honour11hle member i11 out of order in making statements at this time. !-<R. NEARY: I am just correcting a wronr, tmpres111on, Mr. Chatrmnn. Motion that the Committee Report hav1nv, pn11eetl the hf]] without amendments csrrfed 1700

March 9, 1973 Tape 540 111-3 A bill, "

An Act Further To Amend The Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation Act." On motion clauRe (1) carried. MR. HlCK~AN: Mr. ChRirman, I move that on the th1rd line, the word 1701

March 9, 1973 Tape 541 PK - 1 "as' he stricken out and ''is'' substituted and that the words after "amended'' the followinp.; words •·1s further amended" to he deleted. · 'Motion that the committee report havinp, passed Hill No. 50 with amendment, carried. "An Act To Amend The Forest Fires Act." Motion that the committee report havin~ passed Bill No. 54 without amendment, carried. "An Act To Amend The F.xpropriation Act." Motion that the committee report havinr, passed Bill No. 52 without amendment, carried.

"An Act Further T,o Amend The Newfoundland Medical Care Insurance Act," Motion that the cormnittee report having passed Bill No. 48 without amendment, carried. "An Act Further To Amend The Co-operative Societies Act." Motion that the committee report having passed Bill No. 53 without amendment, carried. ''An Act To Amend The Northern Labrador (Social Services And Rehabilitation) Act.•· MR. WOODWARD: Ur.

Chairman, if I may,while I was absent from the House yesterday and did not have a chance to hear the minister's remarks on the bill but I would like to speak on the different clauses of the bill as we go through them - not wanting to delay the proceedings of the House but I will be speaking on the bill as we go through. On motion that the committee report having passed Bill No.57 without amendment, carried. "An Act To Clarify The l'.anner In Which The Provisions Of The Statutes Amendment Act, 1971 And The Statutes Amendment Act, 1.972 Are To Be Implemented.' .On motion Clauses 1 through 3, carried. MR.

HICKt-¼N: Mr. Chairman, Clause 4(5h) I move the amendment of 4 (Sb) by addinP- the word ''the" in the second line at the end. Subsection (6) (d,l It should read ''Form ~:o. 36A." 1702

1".arch 9. 1973 Tape 541 PK - 2 On motion Clause 4 a amended, carried. Motion that the committee report havini passed Hill No. 56 with amendment. carried. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. ChRinnRn. l mnv~ thRt the committee rise,report progress and ask leave to sit again. On motion that the committee rise and report having passed Bills Nos. 57,53.4R,52,54, and 51 without amendment. Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. On motion report received and adopted,bills ordered I read a third time now, by leave.

On motion, a bill,"An Act Further To Amend The Newfoundland Medical Care Insurance Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act Respectin~ Homes Fc-r Special Care,'' read third time,ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Expropriation Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a bill, '"An Act Further To Amend The Co-operative Societies Act,"read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper.

On motion, a bill, ''An Act To Amend The Forest Fires Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a bill,"An Act To Amend The Northern Labrador (Social Services And Rehabilitation)Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. motion,that the committee report having passed bills Nos. 42, 50, and 56 with some amendments. On motion report received and adopted. On motion amendments read a first and second time. On motion bills ordered read a third time now, by leave. 1703

March 9, 1973 Tape 541 PK - 3 On motion, a bill, ''An Act Respecting The Department of Provincial Affa;il's and Environment," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion. a hill, "An Act To Clarify The Manner In Which The Ptovbions Of The Statutes Amendment Act, 1971 And The Statutes Amendment Act, 1972 Are To Be Implemented," read a third time, ordered p,assed and title be as on the Order Paper. 1704

March 9, 1973 Tape 542 PK - 1 On motion, a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Department of Education And Youth Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Department Of Transportation And Communications," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Department Of Rehabilitation And Recreation,'' read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper.

On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Department Of Forestry And Agriculture," read a third time, ordered passed and title }.e as on the Order Paper. On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Department Of Rural Development," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. On motion, a bill, ''An Act To Amend The Disabilities Act," read a third time, ordered passed and title be as on the Order Paper. ADDRESS IN REPLY MR. SPEAKF.R: The honourable member for Port de Grave. MR. G.M. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, I rise to finish a few re~arks I had to say last Friday in this honourable House.

In reading over Hansard here at the time when the honourable member for Bell Island was making his speech he referred to and if I had the time, Sir, I would have some words with the honourable ~entleman about rural development and loans. I will deal with it later when the time comes. You talk about conflict of interest, you talk about rentinp. of equipment, Mr. Speaker, and you talk about saw lop.a, BR he claims here, J want to inform th111 honl')urnh]o 11011•0 th11t t h1u1 nn hone! into nirnl de-vclopmont nnd mnchinery or 11t1w lor.11,wh11t ttnw lor,a J. hnvc maintained, Hr.

Speaker, since I went into business was on my own. T ~efv the honourable ~entlemRn for 170~

March 9, 1972 Tape 542 PK - 2 Bell Island who gave touchinp; remarks across this honourable House about saw logs and a conflict of intercRt. I have nothinp; to be ashamed of, Mr. Speaker. aR far n~ conflict of interest, as far aa that is concerned becaQse what I have I have rlo dealings with ROVernment nor nothinp, else. What I have I own, as far as that is concerned. When the time comes to place the conflict of interest on the line of this honourable House, I will have no reason not to do so. While speaking on rural development, and speaking to the Throne Speech, Mr.

Speaker, I stand today with p;reat pride in this government. In the past about ten years ar,o in the Sir Robert Bond Auditorium there was a ea\.'lllill enquiry called. I happened to he one of these r,entlemen who was in on it 0 NOW we find out after ten or twelve years that we hRVC to get a Pror.reesive Consr.rvative Government and still myself, as mrmh~r for Port de Grave District,to come into this honourable House to see this de;il put throu~h. Why would I he not interested, Mr.

Speaker, with our own resources, if we do not adapt to O1'.r own resources God help us! in the fishery, the farmini\, the logginp; or whatever it may he, I say face it with honesty and integrity and let us prove to the world that there can be something done in this province of ours only if we sit down to business without flinging and flaring across this honourable House about this thinP, and that thin~ that does not pertain to any matters to put forth our province on a rood footing. Mr. Speaker, while I am on my feet I say again I am not growinp, weary nor tired of this government and I think, Mr.

Speaker, that with Cod ~1ven sense put into it and with those on the opposite side of the House to join and see if something can be done to this province of ours, for years it has gone on in a manner that somebody along the lines somewhere had no control over it. A contractor has come in.he is given a contract to go out to do a road in some municipality or whatnot, he is given a contract and he is suppose to have two feet of a shoulder on a road, you p,o throup,h and find out that you had six inches on the road, a flood of rain comes or something and washes away the road. You have nothinp, left and you come

March 9, 1973 Tape 542 PK - 3 in and find out about it. You will only find out that you hRve a contract of a cost.-TJlWI., if you ,,ant a load of 1travel there you should pay for it. These are the contracts that have 'been given out and the t·endere that have been called. This is what has been ~oini,; on in the paat.. Mr. Speaker. I am not speak.in~ from hearsay nor daresay, I am speakin~ from experience. If we as a government are going to et.raighten out these matters and get it on an even footing, l can say we w'lll have to do so but it does not seem 1707

March 9, 1973 Tape No. 543 NM - 1 MR. WILSON: like the honourable member for Bell Island wants any part of it, All the parts that he needs is obstruction - obstruction ever since I came in this honourable House, Mr. Speaker, it has been nothing but obstruction from the honou~able member and I say again while I am on this floor, we have some honourable members on the other side of the House that when the honourable member for Bell Island gets up, all over the island you can hear them say, "They are a fine crowd only for Neary." The image I say, Mr.

Speaker, of the Liberal Party, if we get another twelve months in this House will be gone. MR. NEARY: Go out and get a LIP project and learn your abc 's. · MR. WILSON: Never mind my LIP project, I am able to handle a LIP project and you too, AN HON. MEMBER: He is the master of the LIP. MR. W~LSON: He was the master of the LIP, right. Come over in Clarke's Beach and I will show you something, the honourable member for Bell Island,about the LIP programme, and show you how to spend some ~oney and ,et work done for it. MR. NEARY: I will be over there again. MR.

WILSON: I will show the honourable member about this rural development. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. WILSON: Yes, sure you will. You probably might get buried in a pothole, You may get buried in a pothole. Go out over the line out to Gander, travel out to Gander and see - along the highway as far as timber is concerned and our resources, never the like of it since depression,has been cut along the side of the way. See the people who havP l,enPflttPi:1 hy t.h!" rurnl 1708

March 9 1 1973 Tape No. 543 NM - 2 MR. WILSON: development. This is only one of the things, Mr. Speaker, I wish to see many more of them. As far as the fisheries are concemed, there is no doubt we have good fishermen as far as that is concerned in Port de Grave Dietrict. We have good boat builders. But what is happening, Mr. Speak.er. what is happening is the fishermen never got much to say in t~e past, whatever they decided they were going to do the govemment did it. Look at the eyesores over at Port de Grave now at the present time. They are building over there an eyesore for the fishermen.

Not one fishermen in Port de Grave knows what it is being built there for, a waste of money, with a harbour with not a boat, with longliners built on the slipways and neither harbour to anchor them into, for the want of a dredge to dredge it out. For twenty-three years this has been happening, all for votes. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. WILSON: No I know whom it is to be blamed on. AN HON. MEMBER: The Liberal Government. MR. WILSON: You are the people who initiated it. If you had been interested and got a good LIP.project, they would have had something done over there. ~- NEARY: Who ia building it?

Tell me who is building it. MR. WILSON: I do not want to tell the honourable member who is building it 0 I am certainly sure he well knows as well as the Town Council at Bay Roberts. You know all about that too. Well on a little lighter line, Mr. Speaker, as I see it and the people on this island know it, With what is going on in this honourable House, there is no wonder there is not more done. The people in my District of Port de Grave District, do not want it different than the people in any other district. They are flesh and blood. MR. NEARY: They are all liberal. 1709

March 9, 1973 Tape No. 543 MR. WILSON: I happened to get here as a Tory. MR. NEARY: On a fluke. MR. WILSON: They let the Liberals know this time when we had elections. NM - 3 Mr. Speaker, as far as I am concerned, as I have aid before, they are not one bit different than any other people. They all have problems in their district. I have problems in mine. Yes,I have problems in mine, there are other districts probably have greater ones.

If we come here in this honourable House and we want to take all and get it all under our wings and nothing _ for the other fellows, well we will still have districts left still with nothing. I am living on a paved highway, The people of Port de Grave are living on a paved highway. I have people living in my district, Mr. Speaker, that have not seen a highway truck for twenty-three years with a load of sand to go into potholes, With fifty-two summer houses on one

section of road alone and they have been piled in with the garbage as people know and have seen, and when the honourable member was in this House, two of the honourable members were in this House and I have it in writing, they were given sympathy because they put a petition for their road. They were given sympathy. I never saw a sympathy card burying anybody yet as far as I was concerned, Mr. Speaker. A sympathy card never got you anywhere as far as burying you.

That has been going on but at the present time I have to thank my government for spending $20,000 in three sections, $20,000 in each section, to get it started. AN HON. MEMRER: Inaudible. MR. WILSON: The honourable member for Bell Island will need an intepretor when the next ti~e rolls around, Mr. Speaker, in concludinr, my few remarks are, Mr. Speaker, our politics should be with prinicples, our pleasures with conscience, 1710

March 9, 1973 Tape No. 543 NM - 4 MR. WILSON: our work with work and honesty, our knowledge with character, our industry with morality and our science with humanity. Let us realize that to serve well 1 to sacrifice. Mr. Speaker, that is why I am here, that is why I am in this honourable House, to serve and to sacrifice. I cah tell the honourable member for Bell Island, if he had to have been so smart as he is at the present time when they had the papers on the table for DOSCO on Bell Island, you would have done something. You people would not have to be shipped off the island. MR.

NEARY: Watch your bloood pressure now. MR. WILSON: My blood pressure is all right, I :an tell the honourahle member that. You do not have to worry about my blood pressure. You do not have to worry about the people in my district either, I can well .look after them. When it comes to the fine point I can look after the honourable member for Bell Island's too. MR. GILLETT: May I begin, Mr . Speaker, by offering my congratulations to you on your election I should say I suppose as Deputy Speaker of the House. It is never too late but I should welcome our new member on this side, the member for Labrador South.

Naturally we had hoped that our member would be returned in a by-election but the people who have the final say in a democracy thought otherwise. However, I think I speak for all of u11 on this side, at least the Liberals on this eide,I should say, when we assure the honourable member for Labrador South that he is not alone in the House.

Althourh hr. is the only representative of hie party, he is not alone we are behind him and we trust that he will be behind us when we make any suggestions which we think are for the betterment of Newfotmdland and when we give any criticism that we hope will be received as constructive criticism. 1711

March 9, 1973 Tape No. 543 NM - 5 MR. CILLETT: Now, Mr. Speaker, I am just going to peak very briefly in this Speech in Reply because actually it is not that ~uch different from the Speech from the Throne which we heard last year. However, there are a few items which I think I should refer to right here and I shall go throup.h them very quickly nnd very briefly. The restructuring is the first item that we see here and I remember when I was a young boy and I always tried to get out from doing a job, my parents told me that a poor workman alwavs complains about his tools.

Now it seems that this administration find. lt impossible or so the, say that they inherited a·government structure which they felt could not adequately cope with the present day· 1712

March 9, 1973 Tape 544 18-1 problems, requirements or the aspirations and desires of our people. Then so they deemed it necessary to restructure, to increase their cabinet and to detail the work to more officals and in particular more public servants. The one thing that I am afraid of and this has been mentioned, bv his leave , by my honourable friend the member for Bell Island, that is this; the restructuri~g is going to put a wide gulf between out people and their ministry, their members and particularily the ministers of the various departments.

I think that no matter who you are that when you have gone to the top in a department, in a business, in a church or work, wherever it is,1 think you feel that there you will receive the most sympathetic understanding and there you will receive authentic and offical answers to your problems. Even though the answer might be no, yet I think that the people feel that when they go to the top they are satisfied that they have done the beet that they could. I am very much afraid that the restructuring and the increase of the public servants might separate the people from the ministers.

I should like also at this time to warn the ministers in delegating responsibilities to th~ir deputies, assistant deputies and whatnot that . . they should be on top of everything that goes on in their department. I cannot see how a department can be run otherwise. I think that all toooften the decisions are made by the public servante down the ladder. I have a strong feeling, Mr. Speaker, a very strong feeling that the decision to not place the armour stone on our Causeway in Twillingate last year wae made by somebody other than the minister himself. We all know what happened to it.

I think that - I have to say this this time too,and that is that the pictures that were taken for for the video tape and television must have been taken at dead low water because most of the Causeway or much of it is under water when the water is high. I would say that a considerable amount in dollars and cents was washed away and down in the 1713

March 9, 1973 Tape 544 IB-2 bottom of the main tickle. I have a strong feeling that the questton that I asked the honourable Minister of Transportation and Communications a short while ago represents that money, I believe thnt he was not aware when he answered me that the amounts voted in Supplementary Supply for the Twillingate Causeway were to complete it,with the exception of the bridge. I think he muRt have made that answer without givfn~ it consideration because the armour stone alone is going to cost much more than that, I believe. However, we shall see when we come to the estimates, Mr. Speaker.

The next item that I think I should pass a few remarks on here is the interest that the government is planning to take in private business, private enterprise. That is a good thing because those of us who are in my age group and those of us who read history and know the history of Newfoundland must realize and most know that private business has been the lifeblood of Newfoundland all down through its years. Even though it was a barter business, nevertheless it was the life­ blood. It is the lifeblood of every nation, of course, naturally.

The biggest employer,as I believe the honourable the Premier said last week, still remains the biggest employer in this province, private enterprise, I would say that perhaps only a small percentage of orivate enterprise will be seeking financial assistance from the Provincial Government or from any government for that matter. They are managing and they have managed up through the years to remain solvent. I would like to suggest to the government that they consider these . small entrepreneurs and private busfness when lcp,islation of one kind and another is passed here.

This I believe should be the concern of the federal government as well. I know small business companies who have been actually legislated out of business and one sometimes wonders whether there is room left in Canada for the little m8n or the middle man. You have to be either some­ thin11 vr,ry lnri~• or 111<JmothlnR vrry mfn111r,, 11 m,in nnd ht11 wff,. opttrntlnR 171'1

March 9, 1973 Tape 544, IB-3 a little shop or something or another but the small private business, the small private enterprise employing ten, twelve, fifteen, eight or ten, any small enterprise of this nature particularily in the out­ ports of Newfoundland can be quite easily legislated completely out of business and into bankruptcy for that matter. I would like to suggest to the - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. GILLETIE: Various things. Minimun wage is one, I think, one bi~ item. I think that is one of the biggest items that has been felt around the province.

Not that the min:bnum wage is high enough, we all know that-. It is not high enough by fifty percent.

Nevertheless, it is high enough that - you take a small business, for instance, just a small business shop, a firm in an outport and we have literally thousands of them around this island of ours, if the minimum wage is,well, say a dollar fifty per hour so that it is going to cost that business man, small business man - he might just have one employee so that he is not completely tied down from morning till evening at it, if he wants to go to the bank or the post office he can - but he has to pay that employee say twelve or thirteen dollars a day including the U.I.C. and whatnot.

That is ten percent for instance on $150 worth of business, . . merchandising, selling. He is probably only averaging fifty dollars a day so he has to get rid of that one emnloyee or close up. Now, if you multiply that by two or three you can see quite easily what happens. If he is perhaps · larger,with a big supermarket and doing a different type of business, then he might survive. I have always contended that wage takes care of itself in •every cove and every little hamlet in the island. Competition will take care of it.

For instance, in a larger centre like Twillingate the minimum wage has always been higher because of the competition and whatnot. I think of the 11ttle places around the island - and 1 have covered n cnnr'1cl(!nh1P 11mnunt nr th(' fHlAnd hy hont nmt by r.nr And J dld bul'l1neHs all 11ru1111«1 lhei 11:1I and, on the Sourh We1:1t i.:oa11t a11cl al 1 around 1715

!larch 9, 1973 Tape 545 JH - 1 and I have felt for these people who are struggling and working them9elves and vorking very hard. Sometimes they have eaid to me, " I do not have the education to keep all these accounts for the government and I do not know what to do or which way to turn." Honest to goodness, you have to be a Philadelphia lawyer today between the two governments, the federal and the provincial, to conduct a business and to try and do it within the la". The next item that I thought I should mention here, Mr, Speaker, is Labrador.

My second viit to Labrador, the first was vhen I went to the famous Churchill Falla when I think we all stood in awe. Bow else could we stand but in awe at that Churchill Falle? That of course was a very going and an ongoing concern.But shortly, about three weeks ago I had the pleasure of visiting GoosC Bay and Happy Valley and I was greatly impressed \lith the Gooee Bay Area, greatly impressed with it and most particularly with the enormous airport.

I do not think that this government or the federal government or any right-thinking government :would ever contemplate making a ghost urwn out of Goose Bay because it is not like a mine that has run out. ~se Ray was not built around a mine, it was built around a hugh a.irport and that airport is ~n the dir~ct route between Europe, the short route betveen Europe and Western or North America and will a.hraya be most useful. I do think that the Lower Churchill has to be developed in arder to make Goose Bay and Hnppy Valley Area viable, economically rlable and to have industry attracted there.

There is no reason, Mr~ Speaker, why industry could not be attracted to Labrador. I have never had the pleasure of going do',,TI\ the Labrador Coast. I hope to sometime but from what I have heard since I arrived here,! know it mu:5t be most scenic and moRt beautiful. I did incet a ma.n in I.11bredor, m old friend of mine. He w.11 in the ranv,•r !orcq and than he L«1cttmc 1716

March 9. 1973 Tape 545 JM - 2 a mountie and he has spent many years in Labrador. He is the mountie who is mentioned in the book, ''White Eskimo," I would say that had the government interviewed him and spent some considerable time interviewing him,they would have saved thousands and thousands of dollars on getting firsthand and authentic information on Labrador rather than send a co11111ission or an inquiry or whatever it is from the university. I see a great future for Labrador.

I think instead of goin8 west,young mani our young men will have to go north,particularly in the West of Labrador and in the Goose Bay Area there is a great challe~~e, a tremendous challenge for young people, ~ow what do we have here, our deep water ice-free ports and I think this is an old, old story and this has been a subject of discussion for many, many years. Of course, quite recently we have heard the announcement of the second oil refinery which will be a tremendous boom, I trust, to this little province of ours, a tremendous boom.

We do hope that oil will be found off the Labrador Coast as well because that too will be a great boom to the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland. Goodness knows we need something there, Mr. Speaker. It seems that the Southwest Coast because it is nearer to the G~and Banks and likely so, they have greater earning power, but now if they and they alone benefit from the findings on the Grand Banks of oil or gas why then that is still going to give the Northeast Coast and Northern Newfoundland and Labrador and all the rest of the island quite an area of disparity, pure disparity.

I hope that we can develop something for our area, I think in the rural development plan that the ministers would be very wise to devote most of their energies and put their eyes toward the areas of Newfoundland which they feel will not benefit as greatly from the discovery of oil and of course from the great resources of the Grand Banks. the fishery resources I mean. 1717

March 9, 1973 Tape 545 JM - 3 That leads me, Mr. Speaker, I think, to the fiaheriea. Of course, the fisheries are something that are quite dear to us all. The forests I do not know too much about.

Most of Twillingate Island at least is what we call staligans and I do not know how many of you people know what staligans are but I remember hearing a joke one time about this little boy who did not go to school one morning and the teacher who was new there and she came from another part of the island.of course,where they had forests and what not and ahe said: "Why were you not to school yesterday,-," and he said,"Well I had to bring out some staHp:ans •''iss." She said, "Staligans, how do you spell them?" He said, "On my back, 'M isa." So I do not know how to spell it really but that is the only trees we have here, staligans.

The fisheries I -do know having been in the fish business for thirty odd years and having come through the greatest depression I suppose in history, thank God we did survive it, I know something of the role of small business and that is why it is very close to my heart when I mentioned earlier that legislation could ruin them. The fisheries ruined many years ago,and legislation can ruin them today, Our fisheries, I think particularly in the light salted hard cured fish for which Newfoun~land enj~yed the best markets on earth and of course,she also had to supply the poorest markets on earth.

It is really a pity, Mr. Speaker, that our light salted cod fish has de­ teriorated, the product of it has deter:lorated to such a low p,ross national product. Our markets are crying for it and foreign markets are cryin~ for it. They are willing to pay almost anything for it, It is becoming a delicacy almost, As a matter of fact I had it for lunch today down at Bowerings and it was like mnnna, fish and brewis. I was very glad to see that. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. GILLETT: Yes, I did so.

I was very happy to see that the federal government heB decided to spend $2.l million but It ia over A thr~o year period and 1718

March 9, 1973 Tape no. 546 Page 1 - MRW I do not believe the amount each year is going to do much for it. I do trust that the hon. Minister of Fisheries will see that that money is being spent in areas where the inshore fishery is fair and where there is no other means of sale of that fish - I mean, no fish plant to take it fresh. I think here is where it would do the most good. HR. CHEESEMAN: Part of it will be spent on the development corporation. HR. GILLETT: Yes, but will you not be directing it at all? You will have nothing to do with it. MR. CHEESEMAN: Only part of the firm we can possibly take over. MR.

GILLETT: This is what I mean. I have often wondered in experimenting with the light salted hard-cured cod fish - we no longer have that family unit. I somehow doubt whether today, with the cost of labour, we are ever going to be able to compete in artificial drying. If a family as a family could still dry that cod fish - I understand that the only place that that has been done over the past year and is still being done is in the Bay de Verde Area where the women still go on the flakes.

It is a funny thing that where you have a fresh fish plant, the women will work in the fish plant but they will not work to dry the fish for their husbands. I hAve often wondered, Hr. Speaker, and I have asked this question many times and that is this: whether or not an experiment ha• ever been carried out with the artificial sun, in other words, the sun lamp, which is supposed to be the closest thing to the sun? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. GILLETT: The sun lamp - you can get a sun tan from it and what not.

I have never liked the idea of an oil heater warming the air and a fan driving this warm air over the fish. It brings out the salt on the fish and makes the fish rough;

whereas the sun has always given us that beautiful, yellow fish. It makes your mouth water. I have wondered many times whether or not an experiment should not be carried out, if it has not already been carried out with a sun lamp and a fan, even though that fan has a bit of refrigerant to cool the air a bit, to make it•• cloae to nature a we can? I believe that we have to develop thi  part of our fisherle . Sometimes too, Mr. Speaker, people tend to blame the former Liberal Administration 1719

March 9, 1973 Tape no. 546 Page 2 for allowing our fisheries to go down. I think that that is a little unkind. Twenty-three years ago when we went into Confederation, after ha~ing 300 years or 400 years of fiahing, very bad times, and aw actual cash returns, it was only natural to try and get away from the fishing boat and develop our resources or try to bring in industry to employ all our people. Our former premier had high hopes. NJ Martin Luther King said, "He had been to the mountain top and has een a viion." He had hoped that there would be three jobs for every man but his vision did not come to fruition.

Then he had to turn back to the fisheries. I am very happy to see that many of our yo'lmg men, more than I had ever dreamed, would go back to the fishing boat. We have men who came in from Twillingate to go to the seal fishery. It is in their blood, Mr. Speaker and you cannot take it away. You cannot take it out of them. You cannot give them a blood transfusion that will take it away from them. They have gone off unemployment insurance or welfare or whatever they were on, gone off it.

They have come in here and gone to the seal fishery because they love it so much, not knowing whether they are going to earn a cent. I bet I would not get them to go on my ship under pay but they have . gone out there, They still love the sea around them, We have to make the fisheries attractive to them. They have to be attracted to the fisheries. I notice that 321 boats were either begun last year or completed. I am just wondering as a matter of curiosity how many of those 321 boats were collllllitted prior to last March.

I would say that perhaps a great many of them were, I do not think it is fair to assume or to say that this present administration has started and/or completed 321 boats. We have had a great concern for our inshore fishery, Mr. Speaker and rightly so. It has had frightening and nightmarish effects on our fishermen. there is no doubt about it. They go out morning after mominr and come in evening after evening with no fish. We have had a tendency to 1720

March 9, 1973 Tape no. 546 Page 3 .. blame it all on the foreign fleets that are fishing off our coasts. I wonder can we blame it all on them? In my short memory there have been been years, one after the other. when we have had no fish at all. Ask me, I know. The Labrador fishery baa failed year after year. Schooners have come home with dry keelaona from Labrador, before we ever knew of the Hamilton Banks off the Labrador. I am wondering, Mr. Speaker. if Canada or Newfoundland have done enough research in our fisheries.

I venture to bet now that more is known of the Hamilton Banks,scientifically,by research, by foreign countries. than Canada will ever know. I doubt very much whether or not in the beginning the Hamilton Banks were frequented for fish and for fish only. I have a feeling that perhaps the Hamilton Banks or the entire Continential Shelf was researched for defence purposes and/or offensive purposes by foreign nations. When they discovered all the fish there. they decided that they would catch it. There is a great future, Mr. Speaker, in our fisheries, a great future. How else can I put it?

We all know that the price of meats i  going up tremendously, daily. It is becoming more scarce as the days come and the years go. Laat year the price of fish went up in the United States. I do not know who is taking the credit for it. It might be the fishermen's union who is taking the credit for it. Actually what happened in the United States was this; the consumption of fish in the United States went up less than one pound per person, per year. 1721

March 9, 1973 Tape 547 JM - 1 and this drove the price of fish up tremendously. It 1 etated that if the consumption of fish in the United States increa••• thi year by one pound per person per year that the United State• i• in big trouble in being able to get sufficient fish to feed her people or to look after their needs. Now this compares with, they only eat about something around nine pounds of fish per person per year and this compares with 144 pounds of meat per person per year. AN BON, MEMBER: Mostly meat balls. MR. GILLETT: Mostly meat balls with fish in them. So, Mr.

Speaker, I think we have a great future in our fisheries and this should be promoted with every penny that can be spared from the treasuries of both the federal and provincial governments, It should be encouraged in every way possible by Newfoundlanders, I do not mean by any public relations firm but by Newfoundlanders. Our fishery should be promoted and more and more of our young people should be invited, induced and influenced to go at it.

You know usually a fisherman thinks he is a second class citizen but if he would only realize how important he is he should hold his head so high that you would have to look up to him all the time. The same thing applies to a farmer. What would we do without them, Mr. Speaker? What would we do without them? I say God bless them. Now agriculture, Mr. Speaker, is something else that I think has been neglected in this province and not by the government but by the people themselves and I am one of them. No longer do we have our home garden, our fmnily garden which we should.

But the ARDA programme which was introduced some years ago was one of the best pieces of legislation I suppose that came into this province. It did not meet with the success that we had hoped it would meet but nevertheless it was good, It took over where the Commission of Government left of in their land development association. Small farms, Mr. Speaker, ehould be encouraged 1722

March 9, 1973 Tape 547 and financial assistance ahould be given to them. I think we should carry on a sheep raiaing industry in this province. The hon. Premier mentioned I think sometime in the early part of this session of a visit that he had made to Iceland,and Iceland ia dependent upon the fisheries and sheep raising. I do not see why we cannot have sheep raising in this pr9vince. Sometimes I think the Municipalities Act is a little too stringent and people have to do away with their sheep once they get a municipality incorporated. They have to do away with their cattle becau1e they cannot let them roam.

So that today in the outports in particular, I can understand it in the city or I can understand it in a big town like Grand Falla but in a rural area where they have JM - 2 a municipality and that municipality adheres strictly to the legislation to bar cattle or sheep or any animals from grazing, even dogs from roaming so that the hills and the sides of the road now where the sheep used to keep the grass down and keep it green it grows up and fades and you have a town that does not look as nice as it did before we had a community council there or a municipality.

But there are still sufficient lands, I am sure, to raise sheep and I think this should be done. 1 think it should be encouraged . and 1 ~ope that this new programme, Mr. Speaker, will go far towards the development of sheep raising in this province and particularly in my district I would like to see hundreds and hundreds of sheep. Tourism is another very important industry which could become one of our greatest industries depending of course on how it is developed. I think so far and to date we have put the cart before the horse because ve .. are not ready for it.

We do not have the trained personnel for one thing and we do not have the catering facilities, that is another thing we do not have. I think it should be gone into, , one thing I would suggest for our tourist trade and that is this that our lobsters during 1723

March 9, 1973 Tape 547 JM - 3 our lobster season be pooled. There is a permit I understand that can be obtained to pool lobsters and hold them in the province after the deadline so that we can retail these lobsters and th~reby get every cent we can in return. If you go up in the State of Main in the U.S. during their lobster season you cannot buy anything else to eat actually but lobsters or very, very rarely. They just do not offer it on their menus, it is lobster, lobster, lobster and you have to go to the States to get a Newfoundland lobster.

Most of the restaurants in Newfoundland only serve chicken legs and chips. AN HON. MEMBER: Roast beef. MR. GILLETT: They will not be able to serve roast beef now because it is about $1.50 a pound. · But tourism, Mr. Speaker, is something that I think is like a new born babe, it has to be handled very carefully and on the other hand it is someth~ng like a thoroughbred race horse, it has to be groomed and it has to be groomed and prepared to be driven by the tourists who come in.

They have to enjoy this province and in order to enjoy it they have to get off that black top road or off the main highway going through Newfoundland and they have to get out where Newfoundland is and they do not want to go out over a road that is full of potholes. They do not want to do that. They want to go out over a good road but they want to see the people as they are and they want to enjoy the hospitality of the people.

I think I should warn the government in its plans to assist people around the island in preparing their homes to receive the tourists that advantage could quite easily be taken of a programme like this. l think you have to know with whom you are dealing and know that that person is reliable, sincere, hospitable and that he or she will not unduly get monies from this government for renovations that will not be used for tourists. The Newfoundland Development Corporation of course is welcome news for all Newfoundland. 172'1

March 9, 1973 Tape 548 PK - 1 I am very proud to know that the president of that corporation comes from Morton's Harbour, in my district, in fact he was a great friend of mine when we were young men toRether, I have known Mr, Spencer for a number of years and I am sure that his knowledge, his experience will go well in this direction. Now here we see in our Denartment of Health and the Rovcrnment here are pleased to note the closinR of the hospital for chest diseases, I think the honourahle Minister of Health will agree with me when t say that the Notre Dame Bay Memorial F.ospital played no small

part in eradicating, getting rid off the dread disease tuberculosis. When Dr. Olds arrived there in that hospital some forty odd years ago tuberculosis was just about an epidemic in the area. We were in a very great depression, the doctor in our hospital was instrumental in getting J the Government of Newfoundland, he was directly instrumental in getting the Government of Newfoundland to introduce brown flour, as we called it, the whole wheat flour, but not the whole wheat as we know it now.

Because not only did we have tuberculosis raging throughout the country, the honourable Minister of Health remembers it no doubt, we also had beriberi. So the welfare recipients could not get white flour. Because of Newfoundland having this brown flour that we called it, and later the enriched flour which was milled aspeciallyfor Newfoundland, the Mainland of Canada has that enriched flour today, they did not for years. I am very happy that our hospital in Twillingate cleaned up the epidemic of tuberculosis that prevailed in the entire area served by that hospital.

I can recall when there were 130 patients in that hospital. Mr. Speaker, they were in the corridors, they were everywhere. I recall also when Dr. Olds was alone at that time, I recall one week in particular when I was a patient in the hospital,he used to operate at seven o'clock in the mominp,. On~ of his patients died, a patient on whom he operated on Monday morntnr., th~t patfent d1ed Frfclny afternoo~,and h~ went to bed for th~ firat tfme. Sow~ are very proud of our hospital and we are 1725

March 9, 1973 Tape 548 PK - 2 very thankful that the former government saw fit to give us a new hospital. It was started by the former Liberal Administration - AN RON. Mr.ffRF.R: Inaudible. 'MR. GILLETT: I am very happy to say that my honourable friend and Minister of Health is still continuin~ with that hospital. Make no mistake, we are very grateful. AN HON. MF.~IBER: Inaudible. MR. GILLETT: Pardon me? - ---- - - AN HON. MEMBER· Inaudible. MR. GILLF.TT: How? AN HON. 'ME:!dBF.R: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKF.R· Order! MR. GILLETT: It is very informative, Mr, Speaker, do not stop it, it is news to me.

It is news to me, it sure is. Well the honourable minister's family company is doing the job. There is no reason why they should not, Mr. Speaker, there is no reason why they should not. AN HON. 'MF.MBER: Inaudible, MR. GILLETT~ There is no reason why they should not, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: A lot of economics. MR. GILLETT: I am very pleased and very proud to know that we do have in this province today companies ,that ca~ take on any job that comes. Twenty­ three years ago, we did not,unfortunately,and that was expected at that time. We had to get mainland col'!panies in.

But thank God we do not depend on them now. L.et us drive them out, even our public relations,wc do not need them either. However, now we have the senior citizens home and it looks aR thour,h we are not r,oinp, to get one in Twillingate this year. Mayhe the honourable Minister of Finance can nod,"yes," MR. DOODY: F.verybody is too anxious to learn in Twillingate. MR. GILLETT: No, Mr. Speaker, The type of a home that we have in mind 1720

March 9, 1973 Tape 548 PK - 3 for Twillingate, in fact we had hoped to be able to use the old hospital for that. But we are told that the physical plant is so old and dilapidated and rundown that it would be cheaper to start from the bottom and build a senior citizen  home. But I really think that a senior citizens home should be built as cloe to hospital facilities as possible, AN HON, HEMBF.R: No, no way. MR, GILLETT: Why not? AN HON. MF.~ER: It is sociologically bad, MR. GILLETT: Oh, no, AN HON. MEl'-fBF.R: An old age home. AN HON. l-1BMBER: Inaudible. MR, GILLETT : I am not talking about next door to it.

I am talling in close proximity, in the same town, AN HON. MElIBER: The further the way the hetter. MR. WOODPARD: Keep them away from a cemetery and a hospital. MR. GILLETT~ Well I do not a~ree, Mr. Speaker, honest to goodness I do not agree because I believe that - AN HON, MF.t-fJIF.R: Order, order! MR. GILLETT: I sincerely think that old people feel more secure when.if thev get sick they have a doctor close at hand. AN HON. HF.MBF.P.: Hr, Speaker, could we have the honourable member for Bell Island to let the honourable member be heard in silence? MR, NF.ARY: I just came into the House.

HON, ME?-!:B_ERS: Inaudible. MR,_§_!'_Bt~ER: Order please! MR. GILT,ETT: Ue are having fun, Mr, Speaker, let it r:o. We are havinr fun. J,et it ~o. t-!R, NF.APY: Do your homework home. MR. SPF.AKER: Order, please! MR. GILLF.TT· However, we do hope that before too many moons we will have 1727

March 9, 1973 Tape 54R PK - 4 at least the foundation laid and let us hope that we will get the better contract to put out for it, but that we will have the fo-unclation laid for a senior citizens home in M.llinr,ate. The next thing I have in mind is the youth, Mr. S}>eake-r. The youth of our province, our most precious possession, barring none. I have no offsprinr,s. AN RON. MF.MBF.R: I can let you have th_ree or four. Butt still say that the youth of our province is our most precious possess:f,on. t also think that they need .. AN f!!)~~F.R: ReRardless of the lon~ hair.

MR. f,IJ.LF.'t'T · Regardless of: the lon,t hair. I th1nk they h,tve come :i lon~ way. They have come a lon~ wa,;. I think our youth today are most certainly well by far the most clever iteneration ever to walk this earth. They are livin~ in a ve~y uncertain 1728

March 9, 1973 Tape No. 549 NM - 1 world, a very uncertain world. I think there are things to be said for this and things to be said against it. They are living in a very, very affluent society and I do not particularly think that is good, It is nice but it is not good for them. I do not think it is really good. I still think that a certain amount of sacrifice is necessary. It is essential. A couple of days ago, my honourable friend,the member for Bell Island, referred to some of the merchants on the other side who he said never knew what it was to get up in the morning. MR. NEARY: A crowd of millionaires.

MR, GILLETT: Millionaires was it? MR. NEARY: Yes, millionaires and well-to-do lawyers. MR. GILLETT: To get up in the morning, light the fire and have the water thaw before he could wash. Of course that was a way of life naturally, let us face it. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. GILLETT: But that was a way of life in the outports, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: It still is in a lot of places. MR. GILLETT: No, no, they d~ not hav! to get up too many places and light the fire now and wait for the ice to thaw,I do not think, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Sixty per cent of the homes. MR. GILLETT: No, I would not think so.

Usually they would have oil. I would say, Mr. Speaker, there is more oil used in this province per capita than any other province,for heating. But to get back to our youth, Mr. Speaker, and I think perhaps I should couple the youth with education, kill two birds with one shot. Apparently from what I have heard I think the honourable Minster of EducAtion,when introducinr, or when tabling an announcement of the reRionRl And community colleges, Raid that they would not be 1729

March 9, 1973 Tape No. 549 NM - 2 MR. GILLETT: entirely academic and I agree wholeheartedly. I do not think that this province has the facilities or the employment opportunities for too many academics. I think sometimes, Mr. Speaker, that all too often the parents of the youth, parents who were deprived of university education, compel and force their children to go to school and to continue on through to university against the will of that child and that child has to lean on something and that something is sometimes,most unfortunately, drugs. I think that in our education system, Mr.

Speaker, the first and foremost duty of an educator is to research and find out in the innermost depth of each and every studen~(of his or her potential) the potentiality of that student, his desires, his ambitions and lead him in the path of that desire and that ambition, whether it be carpentry, whether it be engineering, whatever it be. Of course give him enough education to get by with,naturally, but train him for that for which hr is best suited.

Therefore, I think that this regional college and/or community college, both,as outlined by the honourable Minister of Education, is exactly what we need to equip ou~ youth for the future. human resources, Mr. Speaker. John Ruskin once said and I believe it, that the true wealth of a nation is its people. That has not changed. How can it be? If your human resources is not your greatest resource what is or what follows,what other resources do you have that will follow if the human resource is not the greatest resource you have?

Therefore, I think it behooves each and every one of us to do everything in our power to try and develop, to help to develop that human resource. The rural development will do a lot towards that,we trust. Mr. Speaker, I suppose I would be remiss if I did not mention the needs of my district. I do not think they arc any 17~0

March 9, 1973 Tape No. 549 NM - 3 different from any of the other rural districts, in fact I am sure they are not different. But last year I did bring in a petition into this honourable House for the upgrading and widening, upgrading and taking down of dangerous hills on the road leading from Indian Cove down to HerrinR Neck. My friend, who is now the honourable Minister of Tourism, supported that motion because of his knowledge of the road. Nothing was done last year and I am certainly hoping that it will be done this year.

Not too long ago a petition was brouRht into this honourable House conceming water and the supply of water. At that time the honourable Leader of the Opposition on this side said that water like food was an essential and a necessity of life, without it we could not live. I tried last year, Mr. Speaker, to get some deep wells put in particularly in Pike's Arm. I do not believe one penny was spent in our district last year by the Department of Community and Social Development. In the awnmer they have to get their water by boat, this winter they had to melt snow.

I have had a letter in my file now for about two weeks concemi~g this and I had hoped to get the opportunity to ask the miniRter whether or not they intend to put them there this year,but I shall go to the department he suggested I should. Our roads on New World Island, apart from the pavement that was done last year, are both dangerous and bad. We need the water supplies for particularly the deep wells,as I say,in Pike's Arm, Hr. Speaker, there is no other way but a deep well.

It is all rocks, and people have no WAY of blasting,of course. l doubt if they would ~•t watC!T without. aoln~ down dca.r, !':o the, du•p wc-lh are ni:eded thero. They are needed in many places on our illand. 1731

March 9, 1973 Tape No. 549 NM - 4 We need a vocational training school in our area, very badly. I hope that before too long we will see the beginning of just that in our district. Mr. Speaker, I suppose 1732

March 9, 1973 Tape 550 IB-1 I should finish here and clew up because I do not have any listings here of much more on the roads, wells and water and sewage and these things that are essential. As time goes by we shall try to get around to these things.

I would like to mention, since this is the first time I have had the opportunity of speaking - this could be classed, I suppose, as my main speech here - but having sat pere for last session and part of this one, having heard that side of the House condemning this Aide or the former adminiAtration and of course this side doing the same to the other side, I have wondered why it is done. I think, ~r. Speaker, that when we look back over the past twenty-three years we should look back over them with pride, We should look back over them with respect. We should look back over those twenty-three years with gratitude.

I am not putting in a plug for the former Premier, Mr. Speaker. Re made mistakes. I was one of the first to condemn him for it but where in Newfoundland or who in Newfoundland would have had the courage of his convictions and would have taken the leaps and the bounds and sometimes the falls to,because all of his industries did not prove successful, who would have taken those tremendous leaps and bounds other than the former Premier, Mr. Smallwood? I think we should look back over those years, Mr, Speaker, with respect.

I hope that next year when this province celebrates its twenty­ fifth year of Confederation with the Nation of Canada that we will think not unkindly of Mr. Smallwood for what he has done for this province in . _,,. the past twenty-three years,but in deep gratitude to him. I like to think, to tell you the truth, Mr. Speaker, that as providence has provided men in the past, men of the hour - Winston Churchill for the world, for the free world, the entire world for that matter, that providence provided J. R. Smallwood for Newfoundland. It is horrl to say whnt would have hnppened, ~r.

Spenker, We cannot compare thfA, There is no comparison. You cannot r,o ~ack over those twenty-five years and let some of his competitors, let us say,in the field now, It is all very well, They say that everybody knows what 1733

March 9, 1973 Tape 550 IB-2 to do with a bad woman except the man who has her. So, now that we can see 1 we all see where everybody makes his mistakes but unless we could go back over those twenty-three years, just reverse the film, and ·say okay you,Mr. so-and- -so, take over and see what you can do with the next twenty-three years. Let us hope, ~r.

Speaker, let us hope and let us pray that for the sake of Newfoundland that whAtrver administration is in power for the next twenty-three years, if they can only accomplish one half of what has been accomplished in the past twenty-three years, I think they will have been worthy of the pndse and the gratitude of the generation of that day. Mr. Speaker, earlier here when the honourable member from Bay de Verde was speaking my colleague and friend from Hell Island referred to it as a revival meeting or something like that. AN__ll.O.NQURAJiLE m.M.B.ER: Port de Grave. MR. GJLLE'ITE: Port de Grave, yes.

Revival meeting or some such words but you know, I - having, as I say, having sat in this House last year and this year and having grasped a little bit, just a little bit, a very minute bit of the responsibility of this House to the people of Newfoundland - and when I say the people of Newfoundl~nd, Mr. Speaker, I close my eyes and see them humbly, see them in their humble homes, see them not with too much worldly goods but happy, the happiest people on earth, hA?PY and proud of what they have - I think of the great and the grave responsibility that we have.

So, I do not think I could close, revival or no revival, without mentionea one of the most important bits of the Speech from the Throne, this speech and the speech before,which are the only two speechs· I have seen, I refer here, ~r. Speaker, to the very last sentence in that Speech , from the Throne which says, " I invoke r,c,d's bleRRing upon your labours ns you give careful conRidcration to the matters laid before you for the welfare of our beloved province." I have only this to say, Mr. Speaker, without his blessinr,, without that bleas1ng we labour in vain. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Would the honourable m1n1Rter premit me a minute 1734

March 9, 1973 Taue 550 IB-3 please before he begin • Earlier in the day, the honourable member for Bonaviata South rose on what he called a point of personal privilege. I said that I would take it under advisement and rule on it later. I wish now to make that ruling. First of all I would like to say that points of personal privilege should be raised at the first possible opportunity which is at the opening of the House after visitors have entered the galleries.

This might not be a substantial reason for ruling the point of personal privilege out of order so I would like to refer to Beauchesne, page 96, the last paragraph which says," a dispute arising between two honourable members as to allocations of facts hardly fulfills the conditions of the privileged question and 1.t aeems to be a matter to be at once entertained is more convenient to po~tpone otrer business rather than extend the area fo privilege", and to Beauchesne, page 98, section (108), subsection (3) which says, "libels on members have also been constantly punished but to constitute a breech of privilege they must concern the character or conduct of members in that capacity and the libel must be based on matters arising in the actual transaction of the business of the House." With that I have to rule the the honourable members point of personal privilege out of order.

MR~___!if.ARY..:._ Does that mean that the honourable member has to apologize to the Leader of the Opposition? MR. SPEAKER: To my knowledge, it does not. t-fl! .• ROBERTS: ~r. Speaker, I rise on personal privilege,this being the first opportunity. The honourable gentleman from Bonavista South made the flat statement that J was lyin~.

As I understand the rules of this House, Sir, no honourahle memher may mnkr. such a statement. ~ .!_ t-!_ORGA~: T dtd not ay thot he w1111 n. ltar. f1R .• _1m.~V,ftTll) Mr, llt,ci4k@r, th•nlc. vau ,ar. t h"ar,t tho hl"lnnur1tl'111 ecintlom,m, I may have miBheard him. l m4y not have heard all of it but I - this being 1735

~arch 9, 1973 Tape 550 the first opportunity once Your Honour had wiade the r1.1lin.g - the honourable ~entleman said that I had lied. Ky undentanding of the rules of this House - what did he say then? 1B-4 All right then, he did not - I read Hansard - it will be a week before Hansard gets out. If he did not accuse me of lying, I will accet,t his statement 1736

March 9, 1973 Tape 551 MR. SPEAKER: I have a copy of the verbatim statement - MR. ROBERTS : What did he aay then, Sir? May I aee it then? MR. SPEAKER: Yes, surely. MR. ROBERtS: Well then have we a page? We are out of pages again, Sir. AN HON. MF.MBER: Mr. Speaker, - MR. SPEAKER: No, we have to wait for the Leader of the Opposition. AN HON.MEMBER: (Inaudible). DR. FARRELL: Mr. Speaker, is there a point of order now or - 7 JM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, there is a point of privilege before the House. I am reading from this paper that Your Honour just sent to me.

Apparently the hon. gentleman from Bonavista South is not saying that I had lied which is correct as I had not lied nor for the record did I say he waR lying and I want to make that clear. I am not in the habit of calling the hon. gentleman a liar unless he is lying and to my knowledge he was not lying. So I thank Your Honour and since the hon. gentleman did not call me a liar I guess the point of privilege does not exist. I thank you. Now I guess we hear from the hon. gentleman from Humber East who.may tell us why the road on the Northern Peninsula is closed at Red Bay again. DR. FARRELL: No, Mr.

Speaker, I am just up to move the adjournment of the debate this afternoon. Thank you. I think they are all extremely disappointed but we will look after them later. On motion, the debate on the Address in Reply adjourned. MR. CROSBIE: Mr, Speaker, I have a message from His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance, March 9, 1973. "I, the Lieutenant Governor of the Province of Newfoundland transmit estimates of sums required for the public service of the province for the year ending the 31st March, 1974, by way of Interim Supply, and 1737

March 9, 1973 Tape 551 JM - 2 in accordance with the provisions of the British North America Act of 1867. as amended, I recommend these estimates to the House of Assembly. Signed, Lieutenant Governor." MR. CROSBIE: I move that we proceed into co111111ittee of the whole to consider certain resolutions for the granting of interim supply to Her Majesty. On motion that the House resolve itself into committee of the whole on interim supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON INTERIM SUPPLY: MR. R. WELLS(CRAIRMAN OF COMMITTEE): Order!

RESOLUTION: That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the granting to Her Majesty for defraying certain expenses of the Public Service for the financial year ending the 31st day of March, 1974, the initial sum of eighty-five million nine hundred thousand dollars. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I presume we will adopt our usual procedure in debate on the supply bill in general and then the various headings under it while we are in committee. The reason for the need for interim Rupply is thnt the estimates are not completed. _They should be completed next week.

There has been some delay in view of the restructuring because the estimates had to be rearranged to correspond with the new departments and we hope to, this is only hope but I cannot be sure yet but I am hoping to bring the budget down on Friday, March 30, and if we can get these estimates completed, friday,the lucky 30th. Now what we are asking for here is an advance of $85,900,000 towards the cost of operating the government next year.

That is not quite one-sixth of the estimates that will be ultimately laid before the House hopefully at the end of March but it should be sufficient to carry on the government for April and May. Now if the estimates are down by the end of March I assume they will be compl~ted by the 1738

-~ March 9, 1973 Tape 551 JM - 3 end of April but the oppoaition ahowed a tendency to 1ome loquaciousness on the estimate• last year and it might be neceaary for two months . aupply and that ia vhy we are aaking for two month• Other than that I do not think there ii anything 1110re I can say on introducing the measure except that we have to ask the House for .this advance and that the detailed estimate  should be down by the end of the month. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Finance said that the government needs about $86 million for two months. I must say my colleJgues and I are of two minds on this. We had 1739

March 9, 1973, Tape 552, Par,w 1 -- apb originally a~reed. I made the agreement outside the House. The Minister of Finance came to see me and asked what our position was and I said; "l thought we were prepared to let it go through quickly because the Tllain debate w111 be on the estimates." l must say that l arn still of that opinion. The main estimates I can assure the conmtittee will be debate .d at consicler.ahle len!!th.

We are quite prepared for the char1es of obstruct:lonism which we know wUl br hurled at us - it is a passin~ stranr, thin~ and the reason we nr<' of two mind.a in a way on this, is if the honourable gentleman who lends the House from the p:overnmcnt's point of view has a hahit of being all smiles in the House and of beinr anything but all smiles outside the House - I think we have been cooperating, indeed, I think we have been going too far with cooperation. We have taken.for example, a position on the restructurinr, bills hefore the House and given it as our opinion that we do not think they are worth debattng.

Indeed we do not and that is fine. Then we hear on the radto, we hear outoidc the House, ouside the comm:lttce, that the honourable the- Hou,w I.ender fec.-ls that we nr<> not do1nr our share. I nm renlly of two m:ln<ls r:lp;ht now, perhaps some of my collesr.ues rn:lpht like to ~ay a wore! or two. On one hand we have the r,entleman the Finance t-'inister be:lnr. very rensonable and we are quite prepared to r,o alonr, with this. $86 million is not unreasonable it forecasts expenditure of at least $520 million takin~ the fir.ure of 86 and multiplying it by 6.

I assurnt> the government's p.ross expenditure next year will he considerably more than that. indeed, I am willing to bet that $200 million ,-:ill be the minimum capital account deficit in the budget thE' Finance ''in1ster brinps in. We are ~oing to have the bi~rest deficit we have E'Ver seen. I fen reel we were P,Olnr, to BPC tor. :I ncrrnnr-1: J n thi R provi nrr, I am v<•ry hnppy we nrr· nnt, t.!1.'.lnl-11 t,, .. . AN HON • HEr~m:r. : You cannot be sure. 1-o/. .• ROBEP.TS · Well I hope we are not. The honourahle rentleman had 17'10

March 9, 1973, Tape 552, Page 2 -- apb a windfall fro~ Mr. Turner at Ottawa of S24 million, $24 million more than he thought he would ~et ort the eQualization formula. 'MR. W.N.ROWE:_ The very day after he slandered ••• 1"!! .• _ROBERTS: Yes, thr. very day after he slandered (elanderl'd is too strong a word) he had been vl'ry uncomplimentary about ~r. Turner st Ottawa. pR_._J.' .• _~._F.f.Jl.!l.E_L_L: The people of Canada. ~----~O_B_E~_T_S_:__ The people of Canada? ?ffi.~~J~: Ser.t the $24 million. ~F.O~~J'~TJ2_ They certainly did send the $24 million, that is why we joined Canada. But, ?-fr.

Turner happens to be the ?A'inister of Finance just as the honourable gentleman from St. John's West is the Minister of Finance in Newfoundland at present. AN HON. ¥EMBER: (Inaudible) ~...!-ROBERTS_-_ I would like to see more too, but I was once told that honey catches more flies than vinegar, well if the vinep.ar brought $24 million I would like to Sl'e what a little honey might brinp.. The point I am makin~, Jfr. Chairman, of course,it was the people of Canada as the gentleman from Humber East says, of course it was, of course it was. ~--~ROSJHF;_: We are not the only province ••• !"R,,___!PBE]l_T~..:.

That is rip.ht. We are not the only province, we are getting more per - !"R!. CRp~Jl_I~:. They all got an increase. ).fR_ • • ROBF.F.TS: No, they dirl not all r,et an increase. Seven ~ot an increase. We are ~etting more per capita than any other province. I am not so sure we should boast of that because, of course, e.qualization is a form of welfare, a form of socinl assistnnce.

What it means is that in Newfoumlland we have not been nhll' and even with ouite hi~h tax rateo we have not been nble or are not able to rnisc thP nmounts of money that would be raised if we were ns well off as a province, as a people,on the nationnl average. That is all equalization means, it brin~s UR up, it is a form of social ftR&iRtnnce. It is a very welcome 17111

March 9, 1973, Tape 552, Pa~e 3 -- apb one, it has enabled the people of this province to have far better social services than they would have had without it. It may be and,is quite readily ar,reed, Sir, that our social services a.re not good enou!'h, but I would hate to think where we would be without equalization. Indeed, what are we to "et next year? $130 million tn equaliz ·ation money from Ottawa. AN llON. '.MF.:l'.fBER: One hundred and fifty. 1~ • J!OBERTS: $150 million, I am sorry, it was $129 million it has gone up to $153 millions, that is where the confusion :in my mind came. That $153 millions, ?-fr.

Speaker, will be between one-fourth and one­ third of the total expenditure o.f this government and I am not talking about tax-sharing. Ottawa collects taxes and for us 17!.!2

March 9, 1973, Tape 553, Pagel -- apb there are taxes,and it sends them down to us. We are rnt1tlcd to that. Tax equalization Wl' F<'t a11 part of the Canadinn Confrcler11tion Scheme and we are entitled to that. If the honourable F,entleman wish ,I could gladly talk for some time. I guess what I would really like is an assurance from the House Leader that he will say not one thing in the House and another thing outside. If the iovernment wish the Interim Supply to go throu~h today, we are quite preps.red to do it. We are not in any way p:iving up the rights of debate, because we have ample time on the estimates.

The main estimates will be debated thorou~hly anrl at lenr,th in the committee, Sir. We are quite prepared for the charges of obstructionism which we know will be hurled at us, we are quite prepared to have the House forced into three sessions a day in an attempt to grind us down and we will take it with no complaints.

But what I do want is an assurance that there is one govermnent and when the ~inister of Finance comes over all smiles and chuckles and says; "Let us put it through" and I say; "We will put it through" that I will not 11:et up in the morning and be faced ("•ell not faced fortunately, it would be a little much in the ~orning to be faced with the gentleman from St. John's East) that I will not be forced to listen to him saying "the opposition have caved in." If I thou~ht that the opposition were cavinr, in, I suppose we will be here until six tonir,ht and we probably have a few thin~s to say on this.

We can debate each of the twenty Heads and since they are all the main cntimates, obviously, we can debate anv item in the main estimat~s. That was clearly shown in the Interim Supply so we can have two estimates debates. Three or four months on this one, three or four months on the other one. I do not think anyone wants that. I gues that whnt I would really ]fke is an Rs1mrance (rum t hr ~UYCIJ'nmrnt th11 t. 1t f 11 011$1 p,r,vcir11c-m11 t nncl H t hn t f 11 110 it seems to be a reasonable request and wear~ prepared to l~t it go through on that assurance. 17~3

March 9, 1973, Tape 553, Pnr:e' 2 -- apb ~fJL J.C.CR_g_~_BIE..:. I am not sure to whnt the honourable 111 referrinp,, because I have not heard the House - I would certainly say as far as I can see you are being very coop~rative. I will certainly admit that and I did not realize I had such a nice smile and a chuckle this afternoon when I saw the honourable gentleman. !'1R ._JWBERTS _:_ Well," Jovial John"smiles and chuckles.

Actually, Smiles and Chuckles make a candy called "Turkish Delight" I guess which was maybe a good name for the gentleman. twill accept the assurance and I assume the honourable the House Leader on the other side has heard the exchan~e and unless any of my colleagues feel compelled to - I am looking at you "Steve" are you p:oing to jump into this one? MR. NEARY: Oh! you know I am. ~._Ri)B~TS: The gentleman from Bell Island apparently has a few words that he wishes to say but subject to that we will see what happens. ~~YE~Y: The only thing I want to say, Mr.

Chairman, about this bill, is that I want to get explanations from the various ministers as we go down through these Heads of expenditure here. I am particularly interested in knowing what outstandin~ amounts there are to be paid to Mr. McLean and Associates for the next two or three months. I think we have to put a stop to this 1!lffllediately, so I would like to know when the ministers are roinr, - and I would li~e to know, Nr.

Chairman, what time the other ministers are p.oiniz to expose themselves in this House, what time they are go1n~ to testify and tell us how much their particular department has spent on McLeans Public Relations so far in this fiscal year and what they expect to pay between now and the end of 1'arch. That is all l want to know about it, Sir, and I hope- that the ministcr11 will y,fvr 11,i thr nnAwPTfl when wr. 11rP 17.oinr, down through the Subhr1td11. 1714

March 9, 1~73, Tape 554, Page 1 -- apb On motion, Head l. Consoldiated Fund Services $45,000, carried. On motion, llead 11. Legislative $350,000, carried. On motion, Head 111. Executive Council $300,000, carried. On motion, Head IV. Finance, carried. On motion, Head V. Manpower and InduBtrial Relations $200,000, carried. MR-:...._J.C.C~2SBIE_:_ The Minister of Education is not here at the moment, but the amount being asked for,of course, includes some monies on capital account that have to be paid to school boards, teachers' salaries, pensions and the like and general activities of the Department of Education.

There may be some ~oney there for film strips or somethin~ like that so it is quite possible that there are a few dollars there - AN_~Q_N_._ !~~ER.i.. (Inaudible) UR. CROSBIE_:, I do not know of the amount, I am just - so~ HON . ME~'BERS: (Inaudible) ~~..!.. ~-~---~lIB .i.. :I-fr. Chai nnan, it is one thing to let things go through fairly smoothly in anticipation of another debate, but it another thinr, for a minister not even to be in the Houi:;e when $28 million is beinr. - MR. CROSBIE: ---- --- ·--- (First

part inaudible) answer for. ~._Y.,._!'!.Y,9¥E: Nobody in the ministry knows anythinr. about it. I mean, that is an entirely different quintal of fish, Mr. Chainnan. 1'-fR._ CROSBIE:_ Let 1t hold over, that h all. MR •• ROWE:_ Okay! MR. CIIAJPHAN _(WELLS)_: I would like to remind honourable members that this is not a case of money which has been spPnt but a case of money which will be spent and it is rather difficult for a minister to be able to tell members what ••• MR. ROBF.PTS: Sir, we are r,rateful to you, but what my collear.ue asked ls; ''Whal do they propose to spend durinr. the two month period in respect to this?" Ii 17~5

~arch 9, 1973, Tape 554, Page 2 -- apb MR. CROSBIE: The honourable minister has a breakdown of it but he is ... MR. NEARY: r.et him into the House. ~- ROB~_TS :_ The Minister of Education is not hf're. MR. NEARY: The honourahle the Premier is sending •.• "1R. CHAI ''AN (WF.LLS) :_ Order please! Order please! MR. ROBERTS:_ As a sur,gestion, Mr. Chairman, do we not let Head VI stand over for an hour,(not an hour, heavens!) for five or ten minutes. I noticed one of the Premier's assistants scurrying down the hall, hopefully he will p,et the information.

We may get it before the magic hour strikes and we all turn into pumpkins, MR. CHAIRMAN (WF.LLS)_:_ Head VI will stand over. Call Head VII, please. Head VII, Justice $1,200,000: SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR. CIIAIRYAN (WELT.SJ:_ Order please! Order! ~fay I proceed, }!r. Chairman? NR. CHAIRMAN Q,TF.L_L_SJ_:_ The honourable member for Burin. MR. HICJO".Af~:. Thank you. $505,000 for salaries for the month of April, $85,000 for purchases, $10,00 for miscellaneous. ~ay, $505,000 for salaries,$85,000 for purchases and miscellaneous $10,000. Nothin~ in there for t-fr. '.McLean. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Ah hn! Ah ha!

On motion, Head VIT Justice, $1,200,000, carried • . Head VIII, Social Services $6,675,000: HO?!:__A_d...:_~_!U'I~:_ Mr. Chairman, for the month of April my department is requesting salaries of $282,000, short-term assistance $25,000. The estimated cost of assistance to be issued in April and charged to the vote in ~ay is Sl,SOO,noo. Data on short-tenJ1 assistance is conpiled by computer and processed once a month. Charies to the vote are always one month behind actual issues of ass is ta nee, ho'l-•ever, Rt the year's end the books are kept open so that ~arch pnyments made in 17t16

~arch 9, 1973, Tape 554, Page 3 -- apb April may be chnrr,ed to ~arch accounts. This results in expenditure for two months, FehruRTY and t-4'arch be.inr. broup,ht to account in '!-1 urch of each year. Consequently, except tor a few miscellaneous voucher paYll!ents no charres Rre made in April. This is why only $25,000 Interim Supply is requested for it. ~-- ~-O~!:..R_T_S_:_ That was a model speech. ~ .!!_O~_._ ~ -?3_~ _:. Who ever wrote it? ~~I~JIY:. Well, you might depend the minister did not write it he knowi; nothing vet about it. Here is the expert. ~ ~-R_~B_E,!lJ~ You are right! You had better believe it.

MR. N[A.!_Y..:.. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister if he has the up-to-date figures on the number of families and the number of persons on short-term and long-term assistance at the present time? The latest figure. MR. MURPHY:_ There are 11,000 I think, long-term and ••• ~_:_N!_A_~_:_ Not what you think, can I have the figures? The actual figures. !:ffi.~~HJ.IR1fAN· (WE~~S.l_;_ Order please! The Chair rules that that information is not pertinent. Kt. NEARY: ~r. Chairman, what is pertinent if that is not pertinent? This is what it is for, to pay short-term assistance and long-term assistance. MR.

CllAIPYAN (~F.1.LS): Order please! If the minister had the fir,ures at his finger tips and as a courtesy wanted to provide them that would be all rir,ht, hut that inforMation is not directly pertinent to these fir,ures. YR. MURPHY: ·---- --- -- --- 11,000 long-term and 9,~00 short-term for a total of 91,000 persons altor,ether. ~. NEARY: 91,000 persons. !N_]tQ_N_._ l:!.E!fllf.R_:_ (Inaudible) ~'R. ''UT!PIIY ! 9,000 ciu,en. 17~7

}(.arch 9, 1973, Tape 554, Page I -- apb ~- 1'!UF_PlT¥.:. 9,000 yes. 91 • 000 total• s.ol'llethin~ like four point aomethinF, fot a family is the avera~e. Mt. NEARY: -------- Okay. Now, Mr. Chairman, would the honourable minister inform the House if it is the 1nt~lition of ttie ~overnment to cut back on the fuel allowance after the la.Rt of' April? T do not know :If honourable membera itre aware oT not, but the , fuel 17L18 •

March 9, 1973, Tape 555, Pa~e 1 -- apb allowance during the nonths of January, February and ~arch arc up by ten do]lars for people. The normal allowance iR fifteen dollars,in the three months of winter, .January, February 1md March it is up by ten dollars for a totnl of twenty-five dollars. le it the intention of the p:overnment to cut this back after the end of March or after the end of April or when will it be cut back to fifteen dollars again? MR. CHAIRf-'AN (WF.LLS) :_ Before the honourable minister speaks.

The question as I understand it is asking the minister to reveal to the committee the advice that he intends to ii:ive the Crown before he has given it and as such I rule tQe question out of order. !-'It. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, would Your Honour hear a representation before Your Honour rules? I have been in this House for six or seven years and it is the first t:fme I have ever heard a rul:fnr, on estimates and we are discussing the estimates, Sir. That amount of $6.~75 million is approxim:ttely one-sixth of the Rmount which the honourable gentleman estimates he will need to administer this department this year.

It is two month's supply. The reference Your Honour made I submit, Sir, is with reference to a question on Orders of the Day when the ruling is exactly as Your Honour has r,ot it. We are ~n supply,_Sir, this is the Committee of Supply and the matter of the minister's policies or - I am sorry, the ministry's polfcies, the 111a.tter of the minister's administration of the department, the matter of the individu~l pror,rammes within that department, all of those, Sir, are germane ,md relevant. AN l-l0N. ~BER: Js that a question?

He is makinp. a speech. !:1!-:....!'P_B_F.RTS: That is not a auestfon, the honourahle p.entleman :Is makinr, a statenent. This is collll'\ittee, Sir. AN HON. ~'E~'BF.~: He does not understand. - ------ --- -- - - - - MR. POBF."T~: If th~ honourable the mini Rtr.r doNI not wish to answrr. fine. I nndc:-retood hr""'" probnbly 11mciuu1:1 tn any IIC'lll"r-thfnr. h<' h1111 hN•n very cooperative, he has obvfoualy come prepnred with in!orrnatjon and 17L19

~arch 9, 1973, TApe 555, Pap.e 2 -- apb I do not think either flide ho.e anytldn!',CXC«-pt to pf!t on with it. But, Your Honour, I submit, Sir, tlutt that rulin~ is a new one in this cotmllittee. '1-'R. ,CllA tRt 1ftN (WELLS)_: I refer the honourable Leader of the Opposition to Beauchesne, pap:e 148, clause (cc). "A question may not ask what advice the minister proposes to give the Crown but may ask whzt advice he has given." 1~ • POBE:RTS · t-1r. Chairman, really Your Honour!

I do not have Beauchesne in front of me, but I will bet my sessional pay ar,ainst Your llonour's that that refers to questions on Orders of the Day, Sir, not to questions in committee. We are in Committee of the Whole, we are not asking questions of the ministry on Orders of the day, Sir. Those citations Your Honour, I submit, I do not have - "do we have a Beauchesne here Bill?" Has it (1)? Page (1)? Those are the citatfrms I submit, Your Honour, with reference to questions asked the tr.inister on Orders of the Day when it is quite in order. They are not?

AN HON. ~T.-fBER: What is the citation? ~!_R20BF.RTS_-_ What was the citation ap;ain? ~-:..SJt!'}_P__".'._A~_ (WELLS):_ Page 148, Beauchesne. ?-rn. PORr:PTS: Your Honour said that it was not in order to aak questions ------ ..... . of the ministry with respect to policy ... MR. CHAIR"'AN (WELLS)_: As to what advice a minister proposes to fl,ive the Crown. AN HON. rmHBF.R : . -- ·- - - - -- -- We arp not askinr, what aclvir.r h<· propos.-s to 11;ive the Crown, WP arc aakinp, what the government propoRes to do. tfR.

CHA rnr•AN (WELLS) : If the honourable memhcr wishes to ask the question hut does not ask what advice the minir.tcr proposes to p;ivc the Crown, ~y 311 means, l~t hJ~ ask it. ~-ff:. POllfP.TS · We are not <lf!Yinr. hiM whilt 11rlvfc1• h,- propo11cd to r,1vr the Cro .. '11.. AN HON. ltr:MBF.P: (Inaudible) --- - ... - ·-.. -· .. 1750

~arch 9, 1973, Tape 555, Pa~e 3 -- apb ~- W.N.ROt-Tf.:. What was the citation? !'f.!l_.__P.Q_R~RTS: Wlu1 t we are asking, ?-'r. Chai man, is what the minister proposed to do with the fuel allowances beinr. held that will normally end the end of next month? ~!.:..B.OJ3.J.:..RJ_S.:_ Why not? We are askin~ in effr-ct whether there h any money in thiA to continue the fuel allowance for th£> month of .April and !-lay, ~NEMt)'_:_ And how long will it be available? ,IR:_]1.0R!::_R_'!'._S_:. What was the citation aga:fn, Sir, please? l-lR.

CHAIRHAN (WELLS)_: I mir,ht refer the honourable the Leader of the Opposition to Clause (44a) in the Standing Orders. "The Standing Orders of the House shall be observed in the Committees of the Whole House so far as may be accurate." f-1R. ROBEJITS: (InaucUble) - ---------- Ml. CHAIR}'AN (WELLS).: Please! "Except the Stand:lnP, Orders as to the seconding of motions and limitinP, the number of t:fmes of speakinr.. 11 MR. ROBF.RTS· 148 ••• Thank you, Sir, but Your Honour was refcrrin~ to page MR. CHAIR."'AN (WELLS): Beauchesne. MR. ROBERTS: Beauchesne, fourth edition. Ml.

CHHID4'.AN (WELLS) :_ Clause (cc). ~- ROBERTS: But, Your Honour, that refers to oral questions, Sir, not to debate in a committee. That is the point. I mean ••• Misapprehension. MR .• W.N.ROWE:. ~ . FOJlERTS : There is a complete misapprehension and I, you kno~, i.t is not a point we can let drop. These are annotations, comments amd precedents referrin~ to oral questions, S:fr. r.hapter (5) of Beauchesne, page 145, begins ''Questions" "'e are not talking about the colffl!'ittee, Sir, there are other chapters on the Supnly Col'f'Illittecs. ?-IR. CJTAIP!-1AN (WF.LLS)_·.

I would remintl the honourable Leader of the Oppso:I tion that you c1mnot 11sk in cirnl flU<'Rtiona whnt you cnnnot aslt in wr:ftten questions. 1751

March 9, 1973, Tape 555, Pnp,e 4 -- apb MR. ROBEFTS: ----- - -- But, ~r. Chairman, let me try a~ain, let me try a~ain, Sir. There are a variety of nuestions in parliamentary practice. There are the written nuestions, (In Ottawa, they also have starred questions. The starred ouestion means it must bP. answered orally) then there are questions on Orders of the nay and his Honour the Speaker rules questions out of order often and that is his business. These are the sorts of rules which guide his Honour in rulinr, when a question is out of order on oral questions. Then we are in the debate on Committee of Supply.

We are not askinc questions ••• AN HON. ~'ID'BF.ll.: (Inaudible). - -- - --- · MR. ROBERTS: I mean,Your Honour, this - I 81'1 really afltounderl. I think Your Honour ii:; wrong • . !-IR. CHAIR~AN (HELLS):_ I tale the point that the honourable the Leader of the Opposition has made, the Chair has made a rulinr,, if the honourable Leader wishes to appeal it, by all means. 1752

March 9, 1973, Tape 556, Page 1 -- apb ?-'R. ROBERTS: Hold on now, I look across the House, •• ~- CARTER:_ The honourablr. ]eader has every ri1ht to appeal the rulinp:. MR. l!)BERTS :_ This is an aR toundinR - Your Honour is sayinR we cannot have any questions in committee? That is what Your Honour is saying. ~. CROS_B_IJ:_:__ Mr. Chairman, •.. MR '._C:_~IRf~_lWELLS) : the rulin11:? Does the honourable member wish to appeal MR. ~O_BER_:rS:_ The gentleman from St. John's West - ~- C~OJ;BIE:_ Mr.

Chairman, I am sure the honourable minister is quite glad to give the policy of the government, He cannot p:ive advice that he mij!:ht give the government in the future, but he would be glad ••• MR._ ROBERTS:_ We are not ask:1.nr. what advice he proposes to give the Crown, we are asking what the p~licy is and whether we are going to change it, MR. CROSBIE:_ Well let him do it, that is all. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, the Chairman has already stated that if it is a matter where you are asking a statement of fact from the honourahle minister that he is prepared to allow it. MR.

ROB_ERTS..:. 1 understand the order fully, he has said that the references in citation (171) of Beauchesne all of a sudden apply to dehate in CoTf"lllittee of the Whole. !:!.:__!i.N. RS,WE_=:_ That is what he said. !'_~..!._!'OB_E~_T_S_:_ That is what he said, that is the rulinj!;. MJ1. C'HAIPJfA.~ (WELLS) : . There will be no further debs te on this matter. If the honourable member wishes to ask a Question that does not ask the minister what advice he proposes to give the Crown, then he is absolutely at liberty to ask it. MR._ FOBE'E!TS:_ If this rule stands it will bloody-well he enforced.

It h unlu•nr11 nf tn th-f11 llou,ir. 1753

}!arch 9, 1973, Tape 556, Page 2 -- apb ~ .-- ~RSl~J.,L _:_ }1r. Chairm.·m, I thinl< what the -posiUon is that Your Honour is quite corrc>ct in his rulinr: where Your Honour m11.l<es a statement to the effect thot you should not ask a question as to what you are going to do in the> future or what you arc roing to do now. I think the question that the honour11hle the l!lember for Ilell Island is asking and is directin~ to the honourable miniRter is what they are doinr, now. I think Your Honour is quite correct with respect to that.

Perhaps at this stage,since I do not think that we are ~oinp, to possibly get throup.h the rest of the Co!TIIl'littee of Supply at the present ti~e, that it might at this stage be appropriate to sav that the committee rise, report pror,ress and ask leave to sit again, so we can call it six o'clock. On l!lOtion, that the co!IIITlittee rise, report pro11;resi; and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker, returned to the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: The Chairman of committee reports that they have considered the matters to them referred, reports progress and asks leave to sit again. On motion, report received and adopted.

On motion the'House at its rising stands adjourned until tomorrow, ~onday ~arch 12, 1973, at ·3:00 p.m. 1754