April 26,

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Kevin Pollard, MHA for Baie Verte

Springdale, substitutes for Tony Cornect, MHA for Port au Port, for a portion of

the meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Dale Kirby, MHA for St. John's North,

substitutes for Gerry Rogers, MHA for St. John's Centre.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Littlejohn): Welcome, everybody, to the Social Services Committee.

This morning we will hear from the Department of Education. Just prior to

beginning, I am going to ask each Committee member to introduce themselves,

starting with myself. My name is Glenn Littlejohn, the MHA for Port de Grave.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Andrew Parsons, MHA for Burgeo La Poile.

MR. KIRBY: Dale Kirby, MHA for St. John's North. I am subbing for Gerry

Rogers.

MR. CRUMMELL: Dan Crummell, MHA for St. John's West.

MR. LITTLE: Glen Little, MHA for Bonavista South.

MR. CORNECT: Tony Cornect, the beautiful district of Port au Port.

CHAIR: Just a couple of points before we begin, Mr. Minister. When

speaking, could all Committee members and staff be reminded that they should

identify themselves prior to speaking? Wait to see your red light come on first;

it is for the purposes of Hansard. When your red light is on, you are on the

air, as they say. Thank you for that.

Minister, we will allow you fifteen minutes for an opening comment, if you so

desire, sir. Before starting, Minister, would you like to introduce your staff?

MR. JACKMAN: Thank you very much.

Clyde Jackman, the Minister of Education, and MHA for the District of Burin

Placentia West.

I will ask my staff to introduce themselves.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Janet Vivian-Walsh, Assistant Deputy Minister for

Primary, Elementary, and Secondary Education.

MR. PIKE: Darrin Pike, Deputy Minister.

MS CLARKE: Ingrid Clarke, Assistant Deputy Minister, Infrastructure.

MR. STAPLETON: Don Stapleton, Departmental Comptroller.

MS MAY: Heather May, Director of Communications.

MS COLE: Ramona Cole, ADM, Corporate Services.

MR. COLE: Jason Cole, Manager of Budgeting.

CHAIR: Clerk, can we call the first heading, please.

CLERK: Heading 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Heading 1.1.01.

Minister, if you may.

MR. JACKMAN: Thank you very much.

The staff has all introduced themselves, but I want to make a special mention

right down on the end is Ingrid Clarke and as she indicated she is the ADM for

Infrastructure. We know all the work that is going on in infrastructure these

days, but Ingrid is here under special circumstances. She does not normally use

a wheelchair, but there is wheelchair in front down there. Ingrid had a really

bad fall recently. As a matter of fact, she fractured her femur and she has been

off for a while. I think Ingrid is typical of many of the people who are in the

public service. Even though she has been off on sick leave, she is available

through all technologies and the telephone. So even though she is off, she is

on. She is to be commended for that.

Mr. Chair, it is a pleasure for me to be here. Most people would know that in

my former life I was an educator. So getting out of fisheries is a task in

itself, surviving it is the second task, and going into education is certainly

the return of a love for me. Education, as far as I am concerned, and I know a

number of people on both sides of government have spent some time in education,

there is not a more valuable field that you can be in. I know yourself, Mr.

Chair, you have worked with a lot of young people in your role in recreation. I

do not think there is anything that people can take more pride in than in

working with children.

I also do not think that anyone can question government's commitment to

education. Put all politics aside and if you look at what has been invested in

education over the past number of years, if you look at where the budget has

gone, the budget for education now has increased by 44 per cent. Even this year,

when we are operating under fiscal restraint, there is an additional $18 million

that has gone into education.

If we take a look at where our investment per student has gone, it has gone

from $7,400 to $13,200 per student. I have said on several occasions in the

House when I have spoken that I have taken it with real pride to be part of the

time when we provided free textbooks and we eliminated fees for students. Just

this past Friday, I spoke at the Federation of School Councils, and the MHA for

St. John's North was there. One of the people who spoke had been president of

that association for a number of years and she said it was something that they

had been lobbying for the longest time, and it has been implemented.

Again, I say to everybody, just put the politics aside of it. I know that

when I was in the school system, every September it was a chore for many parents

to have to come up with money for textbooks and fees, and that is a burden that

is lifted off of them. Our student-teacher ratio is strong. It is one of the

best in the country. Our student assistant provision is there. I believe it was

in 2010 that we increased the number of hours, some 25,000 hours of additional

student assistant time.

We have invested in our K-3, our Early Learning Strategy, and one of the

challenges that we face right now is having the space to put bums in seats. It

is a simple as that. In particular, this particular area in St. John's, the

Avalon area Gander is another one we face the challenges of having enough

space to put these students. Also, then if you look at the infrastructure

projects that are on the go in Carbonear, in St. Anthony and across the

Province, we continue with our infrastructure engagement.

Also, I have set, as a matter of course for myself in this portfolio, a

couple of things that I want us to tackle, and we have been having meetings and

so on and so forth around these particular issues. One that I certainly want to

address is bullying. I want to address the drug problem that exists in our

school. I will tell you, where I came from on that, as an MHA, I am getting more

calls from parents looking to get their kids into treatment centres. Now, they

are not school-age children. They are twenty-ones, twenty-twos, twenty-threes,

but their problem did not start within the last couple of years. Oftentimes, it

may be related to the age that when they are of school age. I am not saying that

drugs are that prevalent in school, but it starts at that particular age. So we

have had some discussions with the RCMP and RNC around that.

Inclusion is another one. The latest announcement that we have made, which I

am extremely proud of, and that you will get some e-mails counter to that is the

introduction of the My Gay-Straight Alliance resource that has gone into the

schools in Grade 7 to Grade 12, acknowledging that many students struggle with

their sexual orientation. We know that the potential suicide rate amongst this

population is extremely higher than the norm.

It is like someone said to me that they thought it was a matter of choice. I

said to them: I have five children, and I can tell you one thing, if one of my

children comes to me and they say that they are gay, I am certainly not going to

be the one turning my back on them.

It is a reality in our schools. When we say we have safe, caring schools,

this is an indication we are not only paying lip service to it. We are in

actuality supporting these kids as we should support all kids in our education

system.

I will end with that. It is a pleasure to be in this department. I am looking

forward to the discussions as we go through the estimates.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister. Thank you for your comments.

How we did it yesterday, gentlemen; Andrew, you have fifteen minutes as well,

if you want, to begin. Then, Dale, you have ten minutes. We will go back and

forth after that until there are no further questions.

Is that acceptable to you?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Okay, good.

Andrew, you have fifteen.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For the record, it is Andrew Parsons, MHA for Burgeo La Poile. I would like

to firstly thank the minister and his staff for being here and giving us this

opportunity. This is my first Estimates Committee, so bear with me if I am a

little disjointed at times. My plan was, I have made notes, I am going to

probably start at the first page of the Budget book and go down. Hopefully, that

will be okay.

The first question I would ask is in terms of salaries for the Minister's

Office,

section 1.1.01. There is $27,000 less in Salaries for the Minister's

Office this year. How is that accounted for? Is there a reduction in staff?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. Last year the revised one, starting there, is because

there was no Parliamentary Secretary hired. Second, for this year the CAs that

used to be paid through the office now are paid through the Legislature,

therefore the reduction.

MR. A. PARSONS: One of the questions brought up yesterday was when it

comes to the salary book itself, which was not released this year for whatever

reason.

Can we ask for a document or an undertaking that all the salaries for the

department will be provided?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. Minister Marshall indicated that yesterday during

Question Period, so we will provide that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just to clarify, what is the timeline on being able to

obtain that information?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I have learnt in politics never to give you a

definitive timeline, but I will tell you that we will provide it as soon as we

possibly can. This will not be lingered on for months or something.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you.

My next question in relation to the department as a whole would be: How many

employees are currently within the Department of Education?

MR. JACKMAN: Now, that one you go ahead.

MR. PIKE: There are 110 permanent employees and sixty-three temporary.

This includes our eight interpreters for ASL.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Are there any other employees, like contractual, or does this 173 cover off

MR. PIKE: This should cover off everyone.

MR. A. PARSONS: Are you able to give an undertaking to provide a list of

all the employees and their positions within the department?

MR. JACKMAN: I do not see any problem with it.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Are any of the forty-five temporary positions referenced in the Budget as

being, I guess, eliminated fall within your department?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, there does.

MR. A. PARSONS: How many?

MR. JACKMAN: Let me see now, I have them broken down here. I believe in

temporary and we have four positions, three which are seconded from education

that will be going back. We have one temporary position and we have two training

specialists with CDLI. Two of them, the training specialists are at present

vacant and will not be replaced, and there is one management analyst in

teachers' payroll.

MR. A. PARSONS: Again, being new to this, I do not understand a lot of

what these certain roles do. Can an explanation be provided as to what a

training specialist in CDLI does?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, we can provide you with that. You know what CDLI is?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Distance education, so we will provide you with that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Are they related to certain areas of the Province?

MR. PIKE: We currently have four that cover the Province. We have four

positions and we will move down to two. We have been managing with two training

specialists to cover off the Province. It is supports for CDLI teachers and

students. Those two people that we still have, two positions, will do the

remaining training and still cover off the Province.

MR. A. PARSONS: I guess an obvious follow-up to that is: Has there been

any reduction in service because of the cut off from the four positions to two?

Has there been any reduction in hours or services provided to these rural areas?

MR. JACKMAN: No, as the deputy indicated, these two positions have been

vacant and we have been moving along. I think if you speak to anybody who is in

CDLI, the thing has been progressing well and we expect that it will continue to

progress well.

MR. A. PARSONS: Moving on to Corporate Services, on page 15.4 of the

Budget Estimates document that I have here. It appears that there was, in

relation to Salaries under Administrative Support, just under a $200,000

increase in what was budgeted last year and what the revised was?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: What is the reasoning?

MR. JACKMAN: There was overtime payout; there were some additional summer

students. Also, there was turnover in teacher payroll, and because of that there

was some overtime that occurred. It was around I can get Ramona to speak

further to it if you wish it seemed to be at T4 time. There was more time

required, and as such, that was it.

Also, there was a managerial split once the two departments we had the

development of two departments, and so there were some additional costs that

were incurred at that particular point.

MR. A. PARSONS: In Purchased Services under the same section, I noticed

last year there was about $40,000 less spent than was budgeted. What was the

reason for this?

MR. JACKMAN: There were some cost savings that were used to cover

workers' comp. expenses, but if you look at Employee Benefits in the same

section under 02, it went up by the same amount. That was taken from there, but

to cover off the expense. So, the Employee Benefits in 02.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just further down there, when it mentions Grants and

Subsidies under Assistance to Educational Agencies: Can you explain to me, being

new to this, what these are, how they are used? Just a bit of

MR. JACKMAN: In item 10?

MR. A. PARSONS: Item 10, yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, Grants and Subsidies.

Ramona, do you want to speak to that?

MS COLE: That covers some grants to some external agencies. Some of those

would be the Council of Ministers of Education Canada, CMEC; the Federation of

School Councils; a fair chunk of money under the Cultural Connections Strategy,

which would be for arts programs in the schools, fine arts equipment, and that

sort of stuff. So, it covers a group of agencies that we provide some operating

grants to.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

There has been a reduction in the amount budgeted from last year to this

year. Is there any reason?

MR. JACKMAN: Reduction in number ten?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: It is $55,000. It was the same last year.

MR. A. PARSONS: I think last year it was $2,269,000, this year it is

$2,192,000. Is that less of a grant to an agency or?

MR. JACKMAN: Oh, you are down in 2.1.02.

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, okay.

The Community Education Network that operates out of Stephenville, we have

reduced their grant by $60,000. They do duplicate type of work. Now they still

have a large pot of money that they operate from. So that is the reduction right

there.

MR. A. PARSONS: That $60,000, is that related to an employee?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. A. PARSONS: It is not a job?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is there any more specifics I could get on what is not

going to happen with the $60,000 that was normally there? Because that would

serve I guess Stephenville covers off a large area, including my district.

What is not going to happen this year because of that $60,000?

MR. JACKMAN: Our assessment of the situation, because of the program

support they get from other agencies within government and the federal

government, we do not think their program will be impacted but we can take a

look at that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Further down under Policy and Planning,

section 01.

Salaries, there was roughly $100,000 less spent than was budgeted last year. Was

there a position not filled?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, there were two vacant positions for a portion of the

year.

MR. A. PARSONS: Would it be fair to say, given that the amount under the

estimates this year is the same as was spent last year, those positions are not

going to be filled or they have been eliminated?

MR. JACKMAN: No, they are not going to be filled.

MR. A. PARSONS: What were these two positions?

MR. PIKE: The vacant positions that will not be filled this year were two

program analyst positions that we had. Actually, we had them when we had a

project a couple of years ago. They stayed on the books but we have not used

those positions. They have not been around in a while.

They were temporary positions that we brought in for I cannot even remember

the project that we were using them for but there was a demand and we brought

them in temporarily to do a project. Then when the project ended, the temporary

positions still existed but we were not doing that work anymore.

MR. A. PARSONS: I noticed under the same section, Policy and Planning,

Transportation and Communications, only 10 per cent of the budgeted amount was

spent last year.

MR. JACKMAN: Is that 03?

CHAIR: 2.1.03.

MR. A. PARSONS: In 2.1.03.03. Transportation and Communications, $24,000

was budgeted, $2,400 was spent. What would be the reasoning on that?

MS COLE: That is travel money that is there for the department to assist

the agencies, the school districts, and whoever with their strategic and annual

reports. During that last fiscal year, there just was not as much need to travel

out to those areas to assist with it.

MR. JACKMAN: You are going to find, if you look through the Estimates for

2012-2013, a lot of our travel has been reduced. That is one of the areas we are

looking at as a cost-saving measure.

CHAIR: The last question for this section, Andrew; the last question for

these fifteen minutes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. Fifteen minutes is gone already?

CHAIR: Yes, sir.

MR. JACKMAN: Now you know why we stay here sometimes for seven hours.

MR. A. PARSONS: Pack a lunch.

My last question, while we are on this section. It is still under 2.1.03.

Policy and Planning, Professional Services, $111,100 was budgeted but only

$15,000 spent. What would be the reasoning here?

MR. JACKMAN: These are allocations for external consultants that are

needed from time to time. Take up on it this year was low, but we did have some

take up. One of the things we have mentioned is we are doing a review of our

Safe and Caring Schools. I believe it was $26,000 that was used for that. We

budget for it. It is not always used, but we need to have it there if there are

times that it is required.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you, Andrew.

Dale, you have ten minutes.

MR. KIRBY: Again, it is Dale Kirby, MHA, St. John's North.

I just want to go back. Mr. Parsons was asking questions about 2.1.02.10

Grants and Subsidies, Assistance to Educational Agencies and Advisory

Committees. Does that line still include funds for the Federation of School

Councils?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: The T.I. Murphy Centre is included in there as well?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: The Learning Disabilities Association of Newfoundland and

Labrador?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. If you want, we can give you a list of the ones we

fund.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

So the funding has been reduced. The minister noted $60,000. Just sort of

eyeballing the difference there, it does not appear to take into account the

entire amount is closer to about $77,000 I believe, the reduction in funding

from the $2,269,300.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: There is $17,000 as well in reduction to the Canadian

Education Association, which is a national body that assists with research in

education. That is an area where we have other ways of doing research. So, that

is another reduction.

MR. KIRBY: What would be the other ways then that we would be doing

research rather than having the Canadian Education Association doing it?

MR. JACKMAN: The demand changes from time to time and we felt that if we

are looking at some cost-saving measures, we can carry out research within our

own department and do some things within house. We have other things in here

that we carry out in-house and this is one of the examples here, another

example.

MR. KIRBY: Would I be correct to say that the funding has not changed for

the Federation of School Councils and the other two organizations?

MR. JACKMAN: No, it has not changed.

MR. KIRBY: It has not changed at all. Would we be able to get an itemized

list then of

MR. JACKMAN: Of the groups?

MR. KIRBY: - the groups and the funding for each of those.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Good.

Thank you.

I just want to jump ahead a bit because you did talk about, in response to

Mr. Parsons's question on reduction in staff, that there were these training

specialists in the Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation whose positions

were unfilled and now they are going to be eliminated.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: I guess that would explain in like I said, to jump ahead to

3.4.03. Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation. Does that account for the

$100,000 or so drop in Salaries there?

MR. JACKMAN: You are at what?

MR. KIRBY: Line 3.4.03. That is the line

CHAIR: Page 15.12, Minister.

MR. KIRBY: Yes, 15.12, that is the head that deals specifically with

CDLI.

MR. JACKMAN: In Salaries?

MR. KIRBY: Yes, 3.4.03.01. Salaries.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, okay.

MR. KIRBY: It is about $100,000 reduction.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: That is where that it takes that into account.

I am just wondering, more generally, are there plans for the development of

courses in new course areas that currently do not exist or are not offered by

the Centre for Distance Learning and Innovation in the near future?

MR. JACKMAN: It is funny you mention that, because myself and my

communication person were talking about it when we were coming across this

morning.

CDLI is always evolving. As some of our schools get smaller, the demand is

there. They are always looking at opportunities as to how you can offer more

courses. Specific plans, yes. Delivery of in-servicing and that type of thing is

happening more through CDLI. We can offer it now.

What is the school over there we went to and made the announcement, over on

Bonaventure Avenue?

OFFICIAL: Brother Rice.

MR. JACKMAN: Brother Rice. It is interesting to take a trek over there

sometime to see what is happening in CDLI, and to see that there will be more

courses offered.

Music, for example, is being offered now to more and more schools. To see

that from Brother Rice you can have someone like an Alan Doyle who will come in

and put a session off for someone who is in Croque on the Northern Peninsula,

just shows you where CDLI is going. There are always reviews being done as to

how we can offer more of these courses. I expect as technology evolves more and

more we are going to see changing how education is delivered.

MR. KIRBY: By and large, the mandate of CDLI has been to offer these

courses to rural and remote areas of the Province where there have been a

variety of problems. Whether they are extremely small class size, problems with

teacher recruitment and so on, to sort of fill in where the education system is,

for various structural reasons, unable to fill the need for students who need

certain courses in order to graduate.

I am just wondering, in the past there has been interest from students, and

certainly I have spoken to educators who have expressed a similar interest, in

there being some provision or at least investigation of the provision of the

delivery or availability of CDLI courses in urban areas of the Province. Has the

department been mulling that over recently, whether students in St. John's or

other more urbanized areas of the Province might be able to prevail of these

courses? I am just thinking about students, in particular students who are

unable to fit into the current education system in urban areas, for whatever

reason that may be.

MR. PIKE: Over the last number of years, certainly the mandate of CDLI is

still primarily focused on access for rural education but two trends have been

occurring. One is the resources at CDLI have been developed with a theme of

being accessible by all students in the Province, regardless of whether you are

in a small school or not.

A couple of other points on that; CDLI, and I do not know the last count, but

about 100 schools out of 140 high schools were accessing CDLI to varying degrees

obviously the small schools to a large degree and the mid-sized schools to a

lesser degree around specialized courses for the larger schools. If you look

at CDLI's impact or footprint, it is pretty broad if you look at the number of

schools with high school students in it.

The other component you are talking about, we do have students in urban areas

accessing for special medical reasons. That has not been a growing trend but

certainly a trend that CDLI has reached out to. Any time there is a student, for

medically-documented reasons, who has challenges attending school, the resource

has been provided in a number of our large schools. We would have students in

St. John's right now, which is our largest centre, be offering courses through

distance education.

Back to the minister's point, the evolution of CDLI is one that we see and

not only the evolution of CDLI, the evolution of technology assisting students

in the general population is certainly a trend that we are going to see on the

increase.

MR. KIRBY: I was personally involved in this, so I have some personal

knowledge of the community-university research alliance that existed between

CDLI, Distance Education at the university, the NLTA, the Department of

Education, and other partners.

There was a multi-year research alliance that existed where we did research

in this Province that is recognized internationally, really groundbreaking stuff

around the impacts of the delivery of distance education, whether that is by

CDLI, by the College of the North Atlantic, or by Memorial University.

Unfortunately, with all grants that are limited by time, that money has now run

out as of 2011, I believe. If there is anything going on with the Killick

Project for E-Learning Research now it is just cluing up.

I am just wondering if the department has plans or if there are initiatives

planned to continue to do that sort of research in distance education that we

have become internationally known for in Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. PIKE: There have not been any requests for research funding to

continue some of that research you were involved in and other researchers at

Memorial. There have not been any requests that I am aware of, that have come

into us looking to extend that research, but I am sure it would be something

that the department would look seriously at.

MR. JACKMAN: I know personally, thinking of where technology has gone.

Just the other night I was watching Star Trek , and I keep thinking of

Star Trek because back in the 1960s when Kirk would open up his thing and

talk to Spock people did not ever realize that it was going to be here. I was

reading an

article yesterday on Marconi's daughter who said her mother used to

keep telling her that one of these days everybody is going to have one of these

boxes that they can speak in to.

Your point is well taken, and any advances we can make in that particular

area I would certainly more than support.

Back to the deputy's point; there has not been a formal application, but I

can assure you, if it were to come to the department it would certainly get my

support.

MR. KIRBY: I do not want to go over time here. I would just like to say

that we should absolutely commend the staff and the Department of Education for

the work that has been done with CDLI. I know it is difficult work and it is

often uncertain territory, like Star Trek , where you are going where no

person has really gone before; but I think we are going places where people in

the rest of the world would like to go. I think that is really important. I am

very proud of the work that we have all managed to accomplish.

Maybe I will just ask one more question, and then we can go back to my

colleague. There has been a lot of discussion in the House of Assembly,

especially around petitions about broadband access, Internet access, cellphone

access and this sort of thing. I am just wondering, if we find ourselves limited

on occasions in the provision of distance education through the Centre for

Distance Learning and Innovation in regions around the Province, are there

limitations that we are encountering as a result of the limitations in broadband

and Internet access in rural and remote areas of Newfoundland and Labrador?

MR. JACKMAN: I was in a school where distance education was ongoing, and

my take on it is that anywhere in the Province where there has been a demand for

distance education the provision has been there. I am not aware, and I have not

had any presentation that would say there have been obstacles to additional

courses because of access through broadband.

Now, there are limitations because of a course that somebody may want to put

in and having the technology to administer that, but I think that will evolve.

Certainly, I have not encountered it.

CHAIR: Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just so I am fully educated here - pardon the pun - what falls under Employee

Benefits? Is that normal just to make sure I understand what Employee Benefits

is comprised of. It is

section 02 Employee Benefits, and there was $83,000

spent. What does that make up?

MR. JACKMAN: That is for a workers' compensation cost.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Nothing else falls under

MR. JACKMAN: Severance?

MS COLE: There would be some small amounts in there for training for

employees in the division. Employee benefits throughout the department would

include training costs, conference fees, or educational sessions for employees.

So there is a small amount in there for that, but the bulk of that activity in

Corporate Services would be workers' compensation payments. All workers'

compensation payments for the entire department fall under that one account.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I guess the question I have is sort of a broader question. Last year we went

over budget by about $100,000. What steps can we take to make sure that we stick

close to the budget, especially in times of trying to constrain spending?

MR. JACKMAN: Which one?

MR. A. PARSONS: Administrative Support.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Last year it was budgeted just over $2 million and it

went roughly just over $100,000 over.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: I know this year the budget has been increased. What

steps can be taken to ensure that we do not go over?

MR. JACKMAN: I suppose you do as much as you possibly can, but if there

are worker compensation issues that arise over our if there is additional

training that is required, well those are things that we have to make provision

for, and thus you budget for it.

I think under the fiscal situation we have right now we are all being asked,

as ministers and departments, to fine tune as much as we possibly can, and that

we will do. As I said to you, all staff are being asked and we certainly will

review like transportation. If there are areas that we can tighten up on, we

will tighten up on them.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am going to move over to the next

section in Corporate

Services, which is the Information Management and Community Access Program,

2.2.01. This is the CAP program that has been discussed; you are seeing it a lot

in the news. Is this the same one the federal government has chosen not to fund?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Are there any changes on a provincial level to address

this?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, right now one of the things I have directed staff to

do is to stay engaged with the federal government to see if there is an appetite

to review and revisit that. What we will do as a provincial government, I am not

certain at this particular point, but we have to continue ongoing negotiations.

Our stake in this on an annual basis is how much, deputy?

MR. PIKE: Ramona would be able to answer the question with a better

breakdown. The amount in this budget

section includes not only the CAP funding

but also our funding to run the Division of Information Management program. So

it is not just pure Community Access Program.

The breakdown and I do not want to say a number and be wrong, so I will let

Ramona say it.

MR. JACKMAN: Your question is specific to CAP?

MR. A. PARSONS: Yes.

MR. JACKMAN: Ramona?

MS. COLE: The federal revenue number that is there is comprised of two

amounts. One for CAP and one for what they call CAP Youth Initiatives. They are

going to continue to fund the CAP Youth Initiatives at 100 per cent. That

provides salaries for youth to be placed in CAP sites around the Province, to

provide training for the people who come in to use the site, and to assist them

in using it. That piece is not being changed.

There is $550,000 of that revenue figure is the piece that relates directly

to CAP, which is the piece that they are saying they are not going to continue.

There is about $300,000 in that activity in total on the bottom line, the

$749,000 that relates to our Information Management, which is a departmental

and entirely provincial piece.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just to make sure, I want to continue on because this is

a subject obviously that has a lot of people in my district concerned. We do

still take advantage of CAP sites.

Are there any CAP sites closing that you are aware of?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

The federal funding has been reduced by $550,000. What are we doing to make

up for that loss in revenue? Is the Province going to top up to match that?

MR. JACKMAN: At this particular point, we have not fully accepted that

they can rid themselves of the responsibilities. Our inquiries back to the

federal government are to see if there is appetite to revisit this. I will await

discussions and see what the outcome of those things are, then from that we will

make some further decisions.

MR. A. PARSONS: Would it be fair to say the CAP sites will not close

until we at least hear back on what the federal government is going to do?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just looking at the Property, Furnishings and Equipment

under the same section, this is

section 07 under Information Management and

Community Access. I notice last year we budgeted $2,600 but spent $70,000. What

would the additional purchases have been under that heading?

MR. JACKMAN: There was a reduced grant. If you look at item 10, I believe

it was, you will see a reduction there but then if you look at 07 you will see

it was an increase. That was a bulk purchase of computers that went in there.

Again, if I could just indicate to you; Grants and Subsidies reduced by the

same amount that number 07 went up, therefore it was a bulk purchase of

computers.

MR. A. PARSONS: Basically, what was supposed to have been spent in

section 10 was spent in

section 07.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Again, I am very far from an accountant. Why would it be

classified in 07 as opposed to 10?

MR. PIKE: Grants and Subsidies are Grants and Subsidies to the sites, so

what we did is proceed on that bulk buying power. Rather than the individual

sites buy the computers, we bought them and then shipped them out. We got a

better deal on the computers, so it is just a smart finance decision.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. Yes, it makes sense.

CHAIR: Just for the record, Mr. Pollard replaced Mr. Cornect?

MR. POLLARD: Yes.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am moving over to Primary, Elementary and Secondary Education.

MR. JACKMAN: What

section is that?

MR. A. PARSONS: That is

section 3.1.01, the first one there.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay, yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just some general questions I have starting at the top.

In the revised budget for last year, 2011, we spent just over $300,000 less than

was budgeted. Why would that be?

MS COLE: That is the result of various increases and decreases throughout

the system, like more vacant positions, more substitutes or replacements. It is

actually only 0.1 per cent of the total budget. So, it is kind of hard to

provide a budget that comes any closer than that in terms of your actual

expenditures, your revised.

MR. A. PARSONS: Basically, there were fewer teachers or substitutes.

MS COLE: No, there would have been some reduction in teaching units due

to decreasing enrolment. There would be annualization of that because there

would have been some teaching units came out of the system last year. There

would also have been any salary increases offsetting that. There are various ups

and downs.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Under

section 3.1.01.10 Grants and Subsidies, there is a

section there for

School Boards. Last year we budgeted and spent around $421 million. This year it

has been upped to $432 million, which is roughly say a $10 million increase.

What is the increase taking care of?

MR. JACKMAN: One, it is because of the 4 per cent salary increase. That

will consume a major part of that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is there anything else other than the 4 per cent

increase?

MR. JACKMAN: Ramona, you can speak to this.

MS COLE: Yes. Some of the teachers who are in the system are actually at

a higher point and grade, higher step levels and higher grade levels than had

been expected.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

On the next section, still under Grants and Subsidies, Supports to Deaf and

Hard of Hearing Students, last year $124,000 less was spent than budgeted.

MR. JACKMAN: (Inaudible).

MR. A. PARSONS:

Section 3.1.01.

MR. JACKMAN: Okay.

MR. A. PARSONS: I guess there is no section, just under Grants and

Subsidies there is a list there. In the budget for Supports to Deaf and Hard of

Hearing Students, last year $871,000 was budgeted, roughly $747,000 was spent.

This year it has been estimated at $711,000.

I would ask, why was there a reduction in what was spent last year as opposed

to budgeted, and why is it lower this year?

MR. JACKMAN: With the closure of the School for the Deaf, that is the

phasing out of teachers' positions that were there.

MR. A. PARSONS: How many positions would that make up?

MR. JACKMAN: How many came out of the School for the Deaf?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: From last year to this year it is just a reduction of

one.

MR. A. PARSONS: One less teacher?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: One less teacher and they are absorbed through the

school boards.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under Institutional Schools, in the same section, there

has been an increase in roughly $100,000. What is this for?

MR. JACKMAN: Again, one of them and Ramona can speak if there are other

ones would be the 4 per cent. Plus, at the youth centre there was a sick leave

payout. There was an extra unit required because of sick leave.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Andrew. We will come back to you.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

I am going to move down now to 3.1.02 School Board Operations. Before I get

into specifics, I remember that when we moved to the current configuration of

the school districts, we did that for reasons of efficiency, I believe. I am

just wondering if the department has done analysis to determine whether or not

indeed there have been administrative, executive-level, or staffing efficiencies

achieved overall across administration of schools across the Province since we

moved from the previous configuration of school districts, school management if

you will, to what we have now.

Do we know if we have saved money by going to four boards, I will call them?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, in terms of a formalized assessment, unless I am

mistaken, there has not been one. In terms of ongoing assessments, the

department and I, myself, meet regularly with the CEOs of school districts.

Since coming into this position, I have met with all of the school boards,

except for Labrador, which I intend to get to and have a meeting with.

We are not only talking to the CEOs in this particular case, we are talking

to our school board trustees and chairpersons of those boards. We take some of

our direction from them. I think efficiencies have been made, but in regard to

your question: Has there been a specific assessment done? No, there has not.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Now, if we look at the same item there, 3.1.02 School Board Operations, and

we go down under 10. Grants and Subsidies, the third item, Student Assistants,

we are budgeting less now than we did last year for the provision of student

assistants. Is there

MR. JACKMAN: There is a reason for that. It is where student assistants

get laid off during the Easter break. That is when Easter break falls. As a

result of the layoffs, that is a savings that is realized there.

MR. KIRBY: I do not fully understand that. Can you elaborate on that?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, I will get Ramona to explain it further.

MS COLE: It is just basically the timing of the Easter break, because

student assistants do not get paid for those days during Easter. Easter was in

early April this year. Next year it is in late March, but payroll for that

period gets processed prior to the Easter break. So we have two Easter breaks

being processed in the same fiscal year. It is just timing. There is no

reduction in the level of student assistants, absolutely none.

MR. KIRBY: Perhaps we should get the minister to enter into negotiations

with the Holy See to see if we could get that to happen all the time. We could

save a bunch of money maybe not.

Moving down to the next one, Transportation of School Children, which the

minister is aware I have an acute interest in.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, too much interest.

MR. KIRBY: Again, we are budgeting more for transportation. Is that

because the minister is actually going to follow my petition and change the 1.6

kilometre regulation?

MR. JACKMAN: No, it is not.

No, what has happened is we have some contracts that are up for renewal. We

have two types of operations. We have private contractors and we have school

board owned. What happened is we have some of these contracts that are up for

renewal, so we have budgeted money in for that. Plus, in some of our school

board operations of busing, there are some demands there, therefore the

increase.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Moving down again to 3.1.03 Learning Resources Distribution Centre: Can you

explain the function a little more clearly of the Learning Resources

Distribution Centre?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, it operates out of Pleasantville.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: Everything that is sent out to schools, from our new skills

trade program that is in the school, to textbooks, to interactive white boards,

all get distributed from that centre.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

If we look at what was budgeted last year versus what was spent, it was less.

Was there a reason for the under expenditure last year?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. For part of the year there was a vacant position there,

just for part of the year.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, that is what is going on there.

Over to the next page at the top, 3.1.04 School Supplies, we are anticipating

a savings of somewhere in the order of $500,000 well, not quite, but there are

significant savings anticipated there in any case.

Is that because we purchased textbooks last year that we will not have to

this year?

MR. JACKMAN: That is part of it. The Skills program that we have as well,

some of that equipment has been purchased therefore you will see a reduction in

it. You are right there.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Then last year under 3.1.05 School Services, there was over-expenditure when

it came to salaries for that.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, there was one employee, there was some sick leave paid

out, plus there was some severance paid out.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Moving down there, there was an under-expenditure again on Transportation and

Communications but we are budgeting up again.

MR. JACKMAN: We have meetings both in St. John's and outside of St.

John's. When you hold them outside of St. John's, there is more expenditure.

This was the particular case here, that some meetings that had been planned to

be held outside of St. John's were held within; therefore the reason for the

savings.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

The next two heads here, 3.1.06 School Facilities, the first one is

Alterations and Improvements to Existing Facilities. The subsequent item, which

is closely related, is also School Facilities and that is New Construction and

Alterations to Existing Facilities. On the surface, it would seem they both

involve obviously alterations to existing facilities, but obviously new

construction is there.

I am just wondering, generally speaking, how does the department prioritize

what alterations are made to which facilities, and how we are going to move

forward the various requests for new school constructions? How does that advice

come into the department? How is that advice acted upon? Is it in the end a

ministerial or Cabinet-level decision that determines whether Portugal Cove

St. Phillips is going to get the new school?

MR. JACKMAN: The important thing in all of these situations, you remove

politics from it. Politics has no place in determining what needs to be done in

schools. We have school board trustees who work jointly with the CEO and the

board. They develop their list of priorities. They come to the department and

then we go through the process.

In terms of large constructions, it does go through a budgetary process.

There is no doubt about that, but as indicated, and I indicated in my opening

remarks, boards came to us this year with priorities around what is happening

right in this particular area. The simple fact of it is if we do not start to

move on those types of things, in three, four, or five years we are going to

find that we are out of space.

We are putting modules on schools that were built just a year or two ago.

Really, I suppose, now what we have done is we have gone with the Finance

Department statistics branch. So our numbers are pretty well accurate as on now

and projections. Based on the numbers that are given to us through the Stats

agency, and the recommendations that come from school boards, then we take it

forward but priorities are determined and brought to us by board officials.

MR. KIRBY: One of the most significant lines here, certainly in the minds

of a lot of parents, would be on page 15.8, 3.1.07 School Facilities New

Construction and Alterations to Existing Facilities.

Purchased Services, last year we budgeted over $51 million. We spent $29

million, and this year we are estimating $74.5 million. Could we have an

explanation of the under spending of that line last year, which schools were

impacted, the communities, whichever were impacted by that under spending and

then now?

I know the language in the Budget Speech at least, was potential new school

construction. So, maybe if you could provide clarity around that.

MR. JACKMAN: I will tell you, the reason being that, and I suppose if you

look at any major infrastructure piece. What was often happening was, you came

out and all of a sudden you said: yes, there is a new school here, it is $25

million. When, really, the preliminary planning work had not been done.

Now what is happening, there is a step process that says: okay, potential

because we do not know yet where the site is going to be in Paradise for the

next school. We do not know what the configuration will be. There has been no

planning work. So when we say potential, now we are going out to do all of that

groundwork. Once all of that groundwork is done, the eventual when you are

going to be guaranteeing the school is when the tender goes out. All of the

preliminary work will be done prior to that because things can change, and as

such.

One thing is certain; the population indicates that there has to be schools

constructed in these particular areas. It is just that there is preliminary work

that has to be done, site selection. The consultants have to develop the plans,

and go from there.

CHAIR: Thank you, Dale.

Andrew.

MR. JACKMAN: I will say, you mentioned the difference if I could?

CHAIR: Yes, continue.

MR. JACKMAN: I will give you an example. Regina, for example, in Corner

Brook was supposed to be opening in September of 2013, but they have been

informed now that is 2014, because there are some deed standards they have to

meet. So as you are constructing these schools things change. The money that was

committed to Regina this year now will not be required until the following year;

therefore, the deviations in numbers that you see here from time to time.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am going to go back, but before I do I am going to dig a little further

into this one.

If there was $8.9 million budgeted but $4.9 million spent, what was planned

but actually did not happen last year?

MR. JACKMAN: There are changes in the cash flow. If you want to speak to

specific projects do you want to do that Ramona, or Ingrid? There you go.

MS CLARKE: Yes, some of the projects did not move along as quickly as we

had anticipated. The West End High School, we did not spend as much money on

that as we had anticipated; St. Teresa's, Exploits Valley High in Grand

Falls-Windsor, St. Anthony, Davis Elementary, just to give you a few examples.

That money now has been moved out to 2012-13. So, it is just a cash flow issue.

MR. JACKMAN: The projects that Ingrid mentioned, I am just looking at it

here. You are looking at some $15 million or $16 million that would have been

pushed out because of the delays that she has mentioned, but the projects are

ongoing and they will be completed.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just going to the school you mentioned, Regina High

School, which is in Corner Brook, where does that project currently stand? What

was the plan, and where is it?

MR. JACKMAN: I was saying it was slated to reopen in 2013. Now that has

moved to 2014 because of some deed standards they are looking to meet.

MR. A. PARSONS: The junior high is planned to open in September, 2014?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

When we look at extra money in the Budget for this year, it is really money

from last year that was not spent because of delays of whatever nature, it is

just pushed over.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, and carried over.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: And for the new projects that we announced.

MR. A. PARSONS: That is the same logic or reasoning that is for Purchased

Services as well?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, it is the same thing.

MR. A. PARSONS: Explain to me again and this is a real question

Professional versus Purchased Services. What would the difference be there,

because I do not really know?

MS CLARKE: Professional Services is the hiring of consultants to design

these projects. Purchased Services is to actually hire contractors to carry out

the work.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you.

I am going to go back again to where I left off last time, which was

section

3.1.01 Teaching Services. Where I had left off, I believe I am at the

section

called Substitute Teachers. I notice we see an increase of between $350,000 and

$400,000 for this year for substitute teachers.

What is the rationale for that, given we have heard the terms declining

enrolment? Why more money allotted for substitute teachers?

MR. JACKMAN: It would be the same thing as teachers. You have the 4 per

cent increase. Also, you have substitute teachers who have gone for retraining.

Their pay scale has gone up.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am just wondering right now if you have a number on how

many retired teachers are currently teaching in the school system.

MR. JACKMAN: I do not have a number. Do you know offhand, deputy?

MR. PIKE: Not very many.

MR. A. PARSONS: Can I get an undertaking to provide that number?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. It is very few. I recall signing off on one, for

example, in the northern part of Labrador because after repeated attempts to get

someone there, they just could not. It is in very extreme situations.

MR. A. PARSONS: These are all signed off by you? In your authority as the

minister, you have to authorize that?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: In this year's Budget it was mentioned there is $70

million in initiatives like class-size caps and needs-based teacher allocations.

Is this $70 million included under the $537.8 million in Salaries?

MR. JACKMAN: Where are you now?

MR. A. PARSONS: It is more of a general, I guess. In this year's Budget

there was $70 million announced for different initiatives under the Department

of Education, like class-size capping. Where would that be? Where is that found

under?

MR. PIKE: If I understand the question correctly, you are talking about

paying the extra teachers in the system versus the change in the formula or the

allocation approach. Most of that would be found under School Boards as part of

the teacher salaries. Extra teachers would show up under our teacher salaries

piece.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is the $9 million that was announced in Professional

Development found under the same heading?

MR. PIKE: Professional Development is found in a couple of places. We do

it under page 15.11. You will see two sections there: 09 and 10. The first one

is the school districts. We allocate per teacher to school districts to deploy

teachers.

Section 10 is what the Department of Education would allocate. There

would be a variety of other little things in there that we would do for new

curriculum implementation, as well as a variety of other things under 10.

The school district allotment is 09 and the department would be for new

curriculum implementation and some other programming initiatives under 10. There

is where you will see the bulk of what we would call professional development

allocation for teachers, which was changed a few years ago but has not changed.

There is no decline under 09.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under the same

section while we are there, Professional

Development, I noticed there is a fairly sizeable decrease from what was spent

last year actually, what was budgeted as well to this year. Where are these

savings found?

MR. JACKMAN: There have been some programs that have been concluded, say,

around cultural connections. There are some other programs we have some

implementation of, say, for example, a new religion program or a new health

program. Those will take a bit more time to roll out. As a result, there are

savings there.

MR. A. PARSONS: Going back to

section 3.1.02 School Board Operations, I

am looking specifically at

section 09 Allowances and Assistance. There was just

under $58,000 less spent than was allotted for in the Budget for 2011. What

would normally fall under this?

MR. JACKMAN: This is usually bursaries. This is one that I can speak to

from my own district's perspective. At one point in some of our remote

communities you have people who would apply for bursaries. In one of my

communities this year the family, rather than sending the child out, they moved

with the child. People were availing of these types of bursaries less.

MR. A. PARSONS: These are the bursaries for children who have to move to

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, larger schools. You would probably have some from some

of your remote communities.

MR. A. PARSONS: I have some, yes.

So there are basically fewer children last year moved than you had

anticipated?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: I do not know, between myself and Mr. Kirby, I might have

missed a question here.

The Regular Operating Grant under School Board Operations is almost $1.3

million than what was in Budget 2011. Where are these savings coming from? Are

they salaries?

MR. JACKMAN: No, in the department we have had traditionally a

contingency fund of $1 million or so that might be special projects that someone

might apply for. This is one of our cost-saving measures. What we will do now

would be that if a school board, for example, has a special project they want to

do then they apply through the regular channels.

Basically, what we are doing here is providing more accountability around

project application. We will go through the regular process of budget and

Treasury Board type of things if there is a special project that you want to go

through.

MR. A. PARSONS: Before, the money was sitting there.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Now, it is not sitting there. They can still get access

to that money.

MR. JACKMAN: Well, they would make application as would be any other type

of project. I believe one example you used was there was an application to do

some signage work or whatnot. That would have been taken from that contingency

fund there. Now, they would make an application to the department and we would

go through the regular channels to get monies approved.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just so I get the number right, was it $1 million in the

contingency fund, roughly?

MR. JACKMAN: I believe there was.

MR. A. PARSONS: How much of that was used last year?

MR. JACKMAN: That one I am not certain of. I do not know if you have it,

Ramona?

MS COLE: I would not have that right here with me, but we can certainly

go back and see, yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Once I get that number, I guess the follow-up to that is:

Depending on if there was $1 million there and we used X number of dollars of

that million, has that amount been allotted anywhere else to cover off the

possibility that it is going to happen again, that we are going to spend that

money again?

MR. JACKMAN: That would depend on, I suppose

MR. A. PARSONS: What department, or what

section would it move to now?

MR. PIKE: The minister referred to it, a large chunk of that was part of

our cost- savings initiatives. So the money was not moved to a new you are

asking if it was moved over to another section. It was not moved over to another

section.

MR. A. PARSONS: So, savings.

MR. PIKE: Savings.

MR. A. PARSONS: We will need to find out how much was spent last year to

anticipate it?

MR. PIKE: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Following up to that Regular Operating Grant, just under that is the

Administration Grant which is $564,000-and-change less than budgeted last year,

the same thing. Is this savings?

MR. JACKMAN: What we are doing is, part of our overall thing, we are

asking school boards to commit to some of the savings as well. We have asked

they report back to us as to what those things would be because, again, we are

going to stick to our commitment that we are not affecting frontline services.

Part of our cost-saving measures is that we would ask school boards to come

forward with some savings, and this is what we have asked them.

MR. A. PARSONS: What have they come back with in terms of savings? Has it

included salaries?

MR. JACKMAN: They haven't yet.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: This is something that we have asked them to do over this

fiscal year.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

We need to find out what they are going to cut or where they are going to

save to make up this amount.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

CHAIR: Thank you, Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: If I might, just one last question, if Mr. Kirby would

not mind.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. A. PARSONS: Has there been any indication whether this is going to

include jobs? Have they been told that you can include jobs or to find it

elsewhere?

MR. JACKMAN: All I am saying to them is you indicate to us where you can

make these savings and then

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

I just want to go back to a couple of items; under 2.2.01 Information

Management and Community Access Program, page 15.5.

Conceivably, the federal government may decide to continue on with its

determination that it is going to cut $550,000 from the Community Access

Program. We hear the federal government, in particular, saying they do not need

to deliver some frontline services any further because, for example, young kids

are always on the Internet anyway, that is how they can fine and apply for a

summer job.

My fear would be that there are low-income people, of whatever age in the

Province, who are unable to access the Internet at home due to personal expense

or affordability issues. Does the department see itself, or are there

discussions ongoing about finding the $550,000 to fill the hole that the federal

government is digging? Perhaps we could have a couple of examples of the sorts

of sites that we are talking about where public Internet access is provided

across the Province, particularly outside the Overpass.

MR. JACKMAN: You want a list of them?

MR. KIRBY: No, just provide some sorts we are talking about public

libraries, are we

MR. JACKMAN: You are talking about public libraries, yes.

MR. KIRBY: Other places that would have this would be?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, there are schools that have them because in some

communities and I know schools saw this as an opportunity, that you could have

a library in your school plus the technology at the particular time and point.

Generally, though, they are in libraries and school libraries that would be

accessible to the public.

MR. KIRBY: So, you are actively entertaining the notion that we would

find this money provincially

MR. JACKMAN: The two steps that we are taking is, one that you previously

asked: Are there discussing ongoing within the department, as to what we can do

if? That is ongoing.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: The second one is that I have directed officials to speak

with our federal counterparts to make them aware of our situation and see if

they are willing to revisit the situation. Then after that we will make a final

determination.

MR. KIRBY: To decide whether the flags are going to stay up or not?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I do not predict anything about the flags, but we will

see where it goes from there.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, thank you.

I just want to go back; I had jumped ahead to School Facilities 3.1.07. I am

just wondering if it is possible for us to get a list, a comprehensive list of

which

MR. JACKMAN: Projects in schools?

MR. KIRBY: Which schools from last year were represented in the under

spending in the line here from the $51,000 to the $29,000 roughly, and which

amounts? Also, when it comes to the $74.5 million that has been budgeted for

this current budget, if we could have a comprehensive list of the schools and

the amounts, the coinciding or corresponding amounts?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. PIKE: Only for things that are tendered. We would not reveal the

amount we budgeted for a project that is not yet tendered.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

MR. PIKE: You would be revealing the amount before you go out to

competition. You want to get the best value for your dollar, but we can do a

list of all the projects we have already done. We can do a list of the projects

even though we would not have a cash amount to be able to put next to it.

MR. KIRBY: You would not want to be making those estimates public,

specifically, because so-and-so may be wanting to get the

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. PIKE: They know the amount you have in.

MR. KIRBY: Yes, I can see the rationale.

MR. PIKE: After it is done, we make it all public. So it is not an issue.

MR. KIRBY: Now, mind you, the various school districts have already sort

of tipped their hand by saying we need $20 million for X construction in any

case, right? So, one might assume that the department uses

MR. JACKMAN: Well, that is the exact reason, because tipping our hand

when we do not have all of the groundwork and things done is what has gotten us

into projects, schools or otherwise, that have started here and ended up, up

here. So, thus the reason for potential; we are going to do all the groundwork

before things are finally announced. When it goes to tender, that is when people

will know the actual amount.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Is there any documentation available that shows an average percentage or

shows comprehensively what percentage we have seen in terms of overruns?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, one thing they will say within government is the

Department of Education is one department that really comes in close on what

they actually predicted.

MR. KIRBY: In the lingo of the department, what is an acceptable level of

cost overrun for major capital infrastructure investments for new school

constructions?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I know that ours would be around 10 per cent. Ours is

10 per cent.

MR. KIRBY: Ten per cent?

MR. PIKE: No, no, just to qualify that. A Department of Education project

would not be at 10 per cent. Our projects come out a lot closer than that. Our

projected estimate on a project and our real estimate, typically we had a

couple of anomalies occur over the last eight years, but typically we have been

pretty close to it. I do not know if we have an actual number where we have been

on, but we have been less than 10 per cent on our projected versus our actuals.

MR. KIRBY: So you build a contingency into this estimate for overruns?

MR. PIKE: Yes.

You could have a late stage modification of a project that you would have to

modify, a classroom or, so you have to build in an unforeseen circumstance or

something you did not see in your design floor plan.

As you build the school you identify an issue where you go: Well, that does

not quite work for the operation of the school, even though on the plans it

looked good. Once you are building it you need to be able to make those

modifications before you open the school. So there is contingency built in for

those adjustments that we would make on on any project there are always some

adjustments that would occur.

MR. JACKMAN: Material costs, all these types of things. There is

contingency built in.

MR. KIRBY: The 3.1.02 that Mr. Parsons was just we were talking about

this $1 million contingency fund. In the past year there were special projects

or projects that were funded through this contingency. Could we get some

examples of what sorts of projects would be funded from that allocation?

MR. PIKE: I might have to defer to Ramona on what it would be.

The project the minister referred to was signage for handicap spaces. A

number of our schools did not have proper signage, so we funded 100 per cent and

asked school districts to go out and make sure there was clear signage around

handicap spaces. That would be an example of a project that would have came to

us where we would have said yes. We did a provincial-wide roll out of ensuring

that all the signs in some cases it was painting of the parking lot; both with

the sign, because you need the sign and the spot.

Some of our schools in the rural areas, it would just be the sign. That would

be an example of a project that would have come forward. We want to do a

provincial-wide implementation, even though it was a one-school district that

came forward. That is the kind of example.

It could be unforeseen circumstances a district finds itself in. It could be

a renovation project they were doing that came into unforeseen costs. If they

come looking then saying: Well, the project is bigger than we thought it was can

you help us out? It is more of the unforeseen stuff and then these other

projects, like the signage for handicap spots.

MR. KIRBY: Would you include, say air quality and mould issues? Would you

have paid for that? You would not have paid for that out of this fund.

MR. PIKE: Not out of this fund, no.

MR. KIRBY: Temporary facilities for students in the event that no, you

would not include that. So that is not what we are talking about.

MR. JACKMAN: My point to this one is there will always be unforeseens'

and if there is emergency funding, then we have generally found it. For some

other things, rather than here is a contingency fund of $1 million, maybe in

your prior planning some of these things can be worked out. I think this is,

from my perspective, more a measure of accountability, if I could put it that

way.

MR. KIRBY: Would travel by various schools to other provinces or

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. KIRBY: Nothing like that would be included in there?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

We go back to 3.1.06 School Facilities - Alterations and Improvements to

Existing Facilities. We are budgeting up for Salaries this year over the

previous one. Is there a reason why the expenditure is expected to increase

there?

MR. JACKMAN: One of the challenges that are faced in I suppose I can

relate the full line. Occupational health and safety officers and engineers are

difficult to find. They come and they go, as quickly as they come some of them,

because they are being taken up by the private sector. In this particular case,

we are looking at filling engineering positions and occupational health and

safety.

I do not know, Ramona, if there is anything else you want to add to it.

MS COLE: In terms of the numbers themselves, there is an amount in there

for an Occupational Health and Safety Consultant. We transferred the money from

School Board Operations because we needed to have that position in place. That

was the spot where we had enough money that we could do that. So there is an

actual increase in there related to a position that was not funded in past

years.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Under 05 Professional Services, there was $2 million under-expenditure last

year. Could someone elaborate on that?

MR. JACKMAN: In what, 05?

MR. KIRBY: Yes, 3.1.06. School Facilities - Alterations and Improvements

to Existing Facilities, line 05 Professional Services. You can see in the Budget

last year is was $5.9 million and then we actually spent $3.9 million.

MR. PIKE: Just to draw your attention, 05 and 06, that split that Andrew

asked about earlier

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

MR. PIKE: one being, in my language, consultants' fees, engineering

fees, one being the contract fees. They will both link together as you see the

decrease in both of those.

That is part of our challenge in the industry now of getting repair and

maintenance projects out the door and being completed in a very competitive

market, that consultants and engineering companies are under a heavy workload

and the construction companies. This year in particular, we found it extremely

challenging. You can see that both those numbers are significantly down from

what we have allocated to what we are able to spend this year. We think we have

that conquered for next year, and we should be in better shape to move it along

in a better form next year.

You need to look at both of them together, right?

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

MR. PIKE: The Professional Services and the Purchased Services. It is the

same as Andrew's question earlier on.

Ingrid, do you have anything to add?

MS CLARKE: Those projects that we could not proceed with in the last

fiscal year, we will carry them forward and that work will be done this year.

CHAIR: Thank you, Dale.

MR. KIRBY: If I could ask one, just to cap that off?

CHAIR: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: So, for this one, maybe instead of tipping our hand to the

public tendering process, is it possible for this particular head and the

following one that is on new construction, is it possible for us to get a list

of the schools that were implicated in last year's budgeting no figures and

the list of the schools that we are talking about for the upcoming year?

In other words, which schools were planned to have alterations or new

constructions, which new schools or school alterations did we plan last year?

Which ones did we not get to, if indeed that happened? Then, which schools are

we looking at in the upcoming year, either building new or doing significant

alterations on? Can we get a comprehensive list of at least those schools? The

numbers, I can understand why they would be kept confidential.

MS CLARKE: I just wanted to clarify something. We might have proceeded

with a part of the project; we probably just did not finish it.

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

MS CLARKE: If I give you a list, it is going to be a the work might

have been 50 per cent complete, or 90 per cent complete, or 5 per cent complete.

So, it would be difficult, when you look at that list, to know how far the

project proceeded, but we can certainly provide a list of projects that we were

anticipating to be completed, or that amount of money that was allocated spent.

For instance, I will give you an example, on a major capital project we might

have anticipated we were going to spend $9 million and at the end of the day we

probably only spent $7 million.

MR. KIRBY: Sure.

MR. JACKMAN: The projects that we are talking about here are known. The

only thing is we do not want to compromise the financial stuff, but we will

provide you with some information and then based on what you receive, if you

need to speak to me on something further, no problem.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

CHAIR: Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I guess this might be a silly question. I am just trying to figure out

between 3.1.06 and 3.1.07 both are School Facilities. The first one says

Alterations and Improvements to Existing Facilities and I know the second one

says New Construction, but it also says Alterations to Existing Facilities. What

is the difference there?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I suppose one you could look at would be upgrades.

Another one, I suppose if we wanted to, if you are talking about Alterations to

Existing Facilities Roncalli, for example, we were out there last week. They

are taking off the whole front face of it. So one would be more or less for

upgrades; the other one is really going to be, I will say, more extensive.

MR. A. PARSONS: So, obviously 3.1.07 is for your new facilities that you

are building.

MR. JACKMAN: Mr. Chair, and larger projects, as well.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Under 3.1.06, School Facilities, that is the first one, just under

section

07, Property, Furnishings and Equipment, we spent a fair bit more, even though

in the grand scheme of this department it is not a lot, but there is a lot more

spent than what was

MR. JACKMAN: Photocopier: $15,000.

MR. A. PARSONS: What school?

MR. JACKMAN: That was in my district. No, I am only joking. I do not

know.

MR. A. PARSONS: Mr. Chair, is that on the record?

MR. PIKE: It was within the department.

MR. JACKMAN: It was within the department. I am covered off by my deputy.

MR. A. PARSONS: Again, I noticed we went back to the normal expenditure

this year, in this year's budget, so it is anticipated that we are not going to

need any more equipment like that.

MR. JACKMAN: No.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

I am quickly going to go back, just to cover off one question, under

section

3.1.03, Learning Resources Distribution Centre. My friend has already asked some

questions that I was going to ask about where it is located and its purpose. I

believe there is just under $30,000 less for this year's budget than was

budgeted for 2011 and I would ask: Where is that coming in? Sorry, that is under

Salaries. So is that one less salary for this year?

MS COLE: The actual reduction in Salaries is just $8,000 from budget to

budget and that is because the position that had been vacant has now been filled

at a lower step.

MR. A. PARSONS: Perfect, thank you.

Under

section 3.1.04, School Supplies, under that it states

Revenue-Provincial, so I am assuming that is the amount that the government is

putting into the department? Budgeted was $10,000 for last year, but is actually

just about $90,000 received. What was the extra money

MR. JACKMAN: Private schools use our resources, so this was payment for

the textbooks that they purchased through our learning development centre.

MR. A. PARSONS: So that was not anticipated obviously that this money

would be coming in?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, they paid their outstanding bill; that is it. They

owed money for textbooks and they paid it. It is as simple as that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Are there any other outstanding bills that we are

anticipating coming in this year?

MR. JACKMAN: Not that I know.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am just going to move down one

section into 3.1.05,

School Services. Under this

section I note last year, under Salaries, there was

about $66,000 more spent than was budgeted. Was that an extra position added?

MR. JACKMAN: No, that was for one employee. There was sick leave paid

out, plus severance.

MR. A. PARSONS: So we are back to roughly around the same

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under Transportation and Communications

MR. JACKMAN: In the same

MR. A. PARSONS: Same

section

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS:

Section 03 of School Services, there was about $30,000

exactly less spent than was budgeted for?

MR. JACKMAN: I explained that earlier. What that is, is the cost of

holding meetings outside of St. John's is more. In this particular case here,

some of the meetings that were scheduled to be held outside of St. John's were

held in St. John's, so that was a cost saving that is where it came in.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is that trend going to be used across the board?

MR. JACKMAN: No.

I know it is a bit more expensive, but it is only right that we should be

holding meetings in professional development across the Province.

MR. PIKE: We actually had some weather problems on a couple of those

meetings. They were not cancelled on purpose.

MR. A. PARSONS: I do not believe that weather issues have any issue in

this Province. I dispute that.

Under the same heading, School Services, Supplies, again, there was a bigger

allotment spent for Supplies than budgeted. What was that amount for?

MR. JACKMAN: That was for toner and there was a scanner purchased for

digitalizing teacher certification records.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am just looking at the revenues again, where there is a

list of Revenue Provincial. It is $59,800, so that is just a set amount that

is transferred from the government, I guess, to each special

section here.

MS COLE: That is revenue from teachers for teacher certification fees,

appeals or whatever else, any fees that we have to collect in relation to the

work of that division.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Under School Facilities, just a general question, there has been some talk

about Catalina Elementary possibly closing and this 37 per cent drop in

enrolment. Was there a study commissioned for this?

MR. JACKMAN: What happens in this particular case, there are procedures

and protocols that have to be followed by the school boards. The school boards

take a look at enrolments and whatnot, then they go and meet with the

communities, and then in a process they arrive at whether the school will close

or not.

MR. A. PARSONS: Has there been any movement on a decision for the fall of

2012 in terms of Catalina Elementary?

MR. JACKMAN: No, there has not been.

MR. A. PARSONS: Is there any anticipated decisions

MR. JACKMAN: All I can say there is that the school board is continuing

to do their piece. This is why the Department of Education would not get

actively involved in the middle of that. That is something that you have elected

boards, trustees, CEOs, parent communities, school councils, they disseminate

information and then a collective decision will be made. It may be a decision

sometimes that not everyone agrees with, but there is a process that has to be

gone through.

MR. A. PARSONS: Under Budget 2012, it was discussed or announced the

allocation of funds for the feasibility of a new school in Gander. Does that

fall under the $6.9 million that was announced in the Budget?

MR. JACKMAN: Where would that be?

MR. A. PARSONS: In the Budget, under highlights, $6.9 million for major

infrastructure projects.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: I guess that $6.9 million

MR. JACKMAN: That money was previously allocated because the school board

had previously come in. What they were looking for was some work that was going

to be done on Gander Academy. A further investigation indicated that the

population of that area is growing. It is the largest elementary school in the

Province with some 950-plus students in it. As a result, they asked us to

reconsider. So the money that was allocated is being, I will say, repositioned.

We are talking money from what was there, now doing an assessment of the entire

situation, and then a determination will be made from that.

MR. A. PARSONS: So, under that $6.9

MR. JACKMAN: No, it is not in that.

MR. A. PARSONS: That is not there.

MR. JACKMAN: No, no.

MR. A. PARSONS: Has that feasibility study been commenced?

MR. JACKMAN: We have just made the announcement the other day, so it has

not started yet.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Budget 2011 talked about the extension and renovation of Gander Academy. Are

you looking at extension and renovation or a new school altogether?

MR. JACKMAN: That is going to be the determination that comes out of

this.

MR. A. PARSONS: Of the feasibility?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Budget 2011 talked about the refurbishment of Holy Heart, but it is not

mentioned in Budget 2012. Where is that process?

MR. JACKMAN: I will have Ingrid speak to that.

MS CLARKE: Work will proceed this year for Holy Heart. We will be using

our repairs and maintenance funding to proceed with the refurbishment of Holy

Heart.

CHAIR: Last question, Andrew, for this round.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: You are welcome, sir.

MR. A. PARSONS: Budget 2011 committed $892,000 to complete the

construction of schools in Port Hope Simpson and L'Anse au Loup. Again, it is

not in 2012. Has this been done? Has this started?

MR. JACKMAN: Ingrid can speak further to it, but I think the work on

those two schools is pretty well done.

MS CLARKE: Port Hope Simpson, that work is just about complete.

MR. A. PARSONS: Excellent.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: You are welcome.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Thank you.

Continuing on then regarding new school construction, we have certainly heard

a lot over the years about Virginia Park Elementary. I am just wondering what is

going on there. The Janeway site has been rejected now and I am just wondering

what is going on. What is the progress with Virginia Park Elementary? Because I

know this must be ringing in your ears all the time. There is this quote that is

always circulating about consultants saying that they had worse than or

something approximating Third World conditions over there. I am not sure it is

quite that bad, but it is certainly in dire need of replacement.

Could we have an update on where that is and when we might see some movement

on the new construction?

MR. JACKMAN: I cannot give you a date when we might see something, but I

will tell you where it is right now is that a consultant has been hired. The

school board has been keeping in constant contact with the school council there.

The consultant has been asked to explore three possibilities. One is the

existing site; second, there is a site in the White Hills that we want to take a

look at; and thirdly, within, I believe, a kilometre of Virginia Park is Vanier.

Is there something that we can do, to do some extensions to Vanier?

This has been ongoing for a long period of time. I can say to you that the

Premier is very committed to getting this project moving and going. I have had

discussions with her and her direction to me is: Look, get this work done and

get it done as quickly as you can so you can get on with moving this project.

We will wait now for the consultant's piece, but the consultant knows the

urgency of getting on with this. As soon as we get this back, we will move on

it. I know this has been an ongoing issue for a long time and it needs to be

taken off the table. So, as soon as we can get something done we will get it

moving. There is a commitment there to make sure that those kids have a

quality-learning environment.

MR. KIRBY: Good.

With respect to the Janeway site, is that what was found, that this site is

not useable?

MR. JACKMAN: Will it be usable? I think it will. The fact that we are

going to have primary-elementary students occupying that space what was

indicated was the asbestos in there. What happens in the future if we have kids

who are out on the grounds playing around and some health issue arises, someone

going to say: I wonder is it related to asbestos? We do not want to take that

gamble. We are talking about young children, active, out around where the site

was; therefore, rather than take any chances on it, let's move with one of these

three options.

MR. KIRBY: Are you aware if government has seen it fit to take any legal

action or other actions regarding the damage that was done to that site by

MR. JACKMAN: I am not aware. That would be something that Transportation

and Works would have to deal with.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, just curious.

Moving on to page 15.8, Curriculum Development it is immediately under the

New Construction business 3.2.01. I am not going to ask you the transportation

and communications question a third time; I think you have probably answered

that sufficiently.

MR. JACKMAN: That is where we are going (inaudible).

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

Under Professional Services there for Curriculum Development, what sorts of

professional services are we talking about? Consultants to do what sort of work?

Subhead 3.2.01.05, Professional Services, what does that $17,700 get us?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: I would have to get back to you with the specifics on

that. It is obviously something that we could not do within house and had to go

for professional services, but specifics for you, I can get back to you on that.

MR. KIRBY: Okay. Then Purchased Services, under that, that is for human

resources?

MR. JACKMAN: No, that one there, in our learning resource development

piece that we are talking about, our Distribution Centre, the department has

identified the space down there where they provide some in-service. Therefore,

because we have that space, we do not need to avail of some other spaces around

the city, thus we have had some savings realized there.

MR. PIKE: So part of the curriculum development unit is to bring teachers

together to consult on new curriculum design, so you would rent meeting space

from time to time. The minister referred to, we have actually just developed a

room in the Learning Resource Centre in order to reduce our cost of having to go

out and rent space.

MR. JACKMAN: Basically less rental.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Under 10, Grants and Subsidies, who are the recipients of the grants and

subsidies under this head, the $70,600?

MR. JACKMAN: I do not have that with me right now but we can certainly

provide you that.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

I am going to move over to Language Programs on the next page, it is 3.2.02

on page 15.9. Look at 06, we had an under expenditure last year there but we are

budgeting what we had budgeted last year. What is the

MR. JACKMAN: That is for the French First Language programs. There was

less expenditure for translation, believe it or not.

MR. KIRBY: Oh, really?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Grants and Subsidies, we are slightly over in what was spent compared to what

was budgeted last year, but we have gone up by several hundred thousand dollars

in the current budget estimates. Why are we increasing our expenditure there

this year?

MR. JACKMAN: One of the reasons for the increase was that there was an

increase in the number of French Immersion and intensive core French programs.

MR. KIRBY: Oh, really?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, that is one of them.

MR. KIRBY: Increased enrolment.

MR. JACKMAN: The other one, Ramona, do you want to speak to that piece?

MS COLE: The new agreement which came into effect early in 2011-2012

provided the federal government changed the cost-sharing ratio. It was 70-30

and now it is 50-50. All other provinces have been under a 50-50 cost-sharing

ratio for years.

In the new agreement now, they have said okay, it is 50-50 for you, but they

agreed to leave their funding at $3.9 million. The Province put in the

additional provincial expenditure to keep the cost-sharing ratio at 50-50.

MR. KIRBY: Is there some reason why we were getting special treatment

from the federal government? Is this some way to get us into Confederation

perhaps?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. KIRBY: Okay. Thank you.

We have Student Support Services, 3.3.01. This is funding to support

development, implementation and evaluation of programs for children with special

needs. We have a reduction in the salary line there from $510,000 to $441,000.

Are we missing a specialist?

MR. JACKMAN: We have in that division, I believe it is twenty-two people.

Yes. What we have done there is that there were two people working on that, one

person has taken on that responsibility now.

MR. KIRBY: Responsibility for?

MR. JACKMAN: It is a Student Support Services position.

Can you give me the specific name on that individual?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: They would be administering and co-ordinating the

assistive alternate format materials. That particular job can be handled and

absorbed by others in the division.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

Moving down to Supplies, we had an under expenditure of $50,000. Did a

photocopier fall off a truck?

MR. JACKMAN: This is open to requests by people in the field and quite

simply, that is requests here.

MR. KIRBY: Do you endeavour to bulk buy materials to have efficiencies

where you can?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. PIKE: One thing about our support for students with special education

is that there are two or three things happening. Supplies funding there is both

internal department stuff and things for students outside in the system.

There are a number of things that happen from year to year. One is just

individual requests that are individualized around Johnny or Sarah. Then school

districts from time to time will say, we would like to invest heavily in A or B.

A couple of years ago we invested a large amount of money. We moved money

around to buy purchases for Special Education students. It could be resources

for guidance counsellors where we will do that bulk purchase in one given year.

There are a number of places where that money comes out of. You will see the

money shift from year to year according to, one, the demand. Whether it is

special equipment or resources, so they do not come at a different or those

strategic investments, when you decide this year we will invest heavily in that.

So you have the individual requests and the strategic requests that cause the

money to switch from one

section to another section, based on that individual

request, what it is, and the strategic sort of thinking around: What will we

invest in this year? We tend to move those dollars from supplies to other places

or back up to supplies according to the finance rules on where it should come

from based on the purchase.

MR. KIRBY: Okay, thanks.

The next one, 05 Professional Services, there was an under expenditure last

year. What professional service did we not avail of, or services did we not

avail of?

MR. JACKMAN: There was not as much professional development delivered as

was predicted.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: Second, is that there was not as much travel used as was

estimated.

MR. KIRBY: Under the next one, 06. What are the Purchased Services that

we would have under this head?

MR. PIKE: Printing of documents. Any of our curriculum documents or

resource documents, we would have printing charges. That would be related to

publishing a new manual or anything, that kind of thing.

MR. KIRBY: Okay.

I hear a lot from my constituents about Autism Spectrum Disorder and children

and families who are having to content with, I guess, a fall out from what

happens when ones child or children are inflicted with Autism Spectrum Disorder.

In a way, it seems to me that our model of teacher and student assistant is an

artifact of the pre-inclusion era.

In other jurisdictions we have models of more triage in the classroom. You

have specialized human resources, specialized individuals, individuals with

particular educational qualifications and training that enable them to provide

supports. For example, if you look across Canada, community colleges are

training individuals to be autism support workers, specifically trained to

support children with Autism Spectrum Disorder. In some school districts you

will find that intensive behavioural intervention specialists or therapists are

on the payroll of either the school district or working within schools in the

classroom with children to, as I said, have more of a model where different

people are fulfilling different functions.

I am wondering, has the department looked at moving to different or studied a

different human resource model in the classroom for the provision of teaching

now that we have moved to the inclusive model that we have?

MR. JACKMAN: Certainly, our investment in this particular area and

maybe one the staff will correct me if I do not get this exactly right, but over

the last couple of years we have put about a million or so dollars into efforts

to address autism in our schools.

Just a month or so ago there were some seventy-plus teachers who attended a

seminar here in the Province where we had an internationally renowned expert in

the field of autism who spoke to these educators and parents about what it is we

can do to improve the lot of autistic children in the school system. We are

always exploring whatever options there are, new models.

Our commitment of funds has been there. I do not know, Janet, if you want to

speak a little bit further on it. What we can do to support that and if there

are changes that will improve the situation, well, we will explore them and see

what it is we can do.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: In terms of autism, there has been an incredible amount

of intensive training and resources put in since 2009, and as the minister said,

about $1 million.

In terms of trying to determine what is needed, there have been people here

from the Geneva Centre, there have been those here from the National Autism

Centre in the United States, and thus the experts have been consulted. There has

been training of the student assistants in terms of the knowledge has been

greatly increased between the teachers and the student assistants. That is an

ongoing thing and evaluated as we do it, as to what are the next needs. There

certainly has been the consultation of what are the best practices across the

nation, internationally, regarding autism.

CHAIR: Dale, can you hold that thought for your next round, please?

MR. KIRBY: Sure.

CHAIR: Thank you.

MR. JACKMAN: If you want to finish your comment on that, there has

already Mr. Parsons?

MR. A. PARSONS: I am fine with that.

CHAIR: Okay.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: Really, the frustration is that when I know there are families

out there who are getting IBI or Applied Behavioural Analysis is another term to

describe a similar therapy, are getting it through Eastern Health or in my

district or another agency and then when their child goes to school the next

morning, the level of skill expertise is not student assistants have a certain

amount of professional development but they certainly are not trained in the

provision of those therapies in the way that somebody who has more of a formal

education.

The frustration I am seeing is they can get it at home with homework help but

they cannot get it in the classroom. Of course, with autism a lot of the times

it is a missed opportunity. That is why you have this intensive intervention in

the early years because you really want to help do what you can to facilitate

development and so on.

I would encourage the department to look at other things that are being done

in other jurisdictions because there is more we can do. As you have

acknowledged, it is an emergent area where we are learning new things about the

brain and so on, as the minister said, all the time.

CHAIR: Thank you, Dale.

Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: It appears, ladies and gentlemen, we are going to go to 12:00

o'clock. I was just wondering we have sat here now for two hours; does anybody

need a break for five minutes?

MR. JACKMAN: I was going to mention it, Mr. Chair. I am not going to tell

you why but I do need a break.

CHAIR: Let's break, and we will reconvene at 11:15 if that is acceptable

to everyone.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: Thank you.

Recess

CHAIR: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for the break.

We did have some discussion we are certainly going to go until 12:00

o'clock and probably beyond, as I was consulting, Minister, with our colleagues

across the way. Do you wish to go to 12:00 p.m. and we reconvene or do you want

to break now?

MR. JACKMAN: We will go to 12:00.

CHAIR: Okay, we will go to 12:00.

Andrew, if you may.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Very quickly, I am going to go back to a general question, but I guess it

falls under School Facilities. I understand Coley's Point has been inquiring

about the possibility of a new facility. Is that something that is on

government's radar this year?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, it is always on the government's radar, but in terms of

announcements this year, it was not in our announcements. The board has

identified it as one of their priorities. It is something that I know and I

expect I know that they will bring it forward and we will have to see where it

goes this coming year.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just going by again, in learning this process, the first

step in that would be a feasibility study is commenced?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

So hopefully in next year's budget, under Professional Services, there is

money allotted?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Again, going back to priority repairs and maintenance, what is the current

status of the school in Charlottetown which has been a big issue?

MR. JACKMAN: The school board received the consultant's report yesterday.

They are going through it right now. I have been speaking to Lisa Dempster and

have been getting e-mails from her. As a matter of fact, I am thinking that I

might meet with her this afternoon because she is going to be in town and give

her the latest.

We have committed, whatever comes out of that consultant's report, that these

students would go back into a safe learning environment. I cannot say what that

is right now. We will just wait what comes out of the consultant's report and

then that will determine the next steps.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you.

Just another general question I believe this would fall under Student

Support Services, 3.3.01. The CNIB lately has been looking for government's

support for their hub their library of alternative formats. Is this something

that has been allotted under the support services for this year?

MR. JACKMAN: I am not aware of that one, so I would have to get one of

the staff who would speak to it.

MR. PIKE: Not currently. We have had a number of discussions with them on

their budget and proposed plan. Basically, we have another commitment to meet

with them. I think it is in the next couple of weeks, but I cannot remember when

the next date is. We are basically trying to get information on their plan, if

they have a good plan, if there is a commitment to federal funding because

they had some federal funding only for two years. Before the consideration from

the provincial government, was to make sure we had something we knew we were

committing to and we had a long-term plan, as well as the analysis from the

provincial level on usage.

We have been talking to them. We have had a number of meetings with them. I

am pretty sure there is another one scheduled to come up very soon Ramona?

MS COLE: Yes, I believe it is early next week.

MR. A. PARSONS: Excellent.

I guess I am all over the place here. I am going to go back for a quick

second to Curriculum Development, 3.2.01. My friend said he was not going to

talk about transportation and communications, but I am going to ask that

question because I want it on the record.

Last year, $20,000 above budget was actually spent, but this year we are

cutting it by $20,000 compared to budget 2011. What is the thought process on

what is going to happen there, how we are going to achieve these savings

MR. JACKMAN: What happened is we have had some new programs that have

come in. The skills program that we have introduced, the in-service has been

done in those particular areas. Therefore, the demand is not there now. It is as

simple as that.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay, fair enough.

Moving over to Program Development, 3.2.02, the

section there was already

discussed earlier under federal revenue. I guess you are saying it is part of a

cost-shared, 50-50 is that something that you figure out the amount on a

year-by-year basis or is it done as you know what your funding is for a stretch

of time?

MR. JACKMAN: This is federal revenue agreements, right?

MS COLE: I believe that is a three-year agreement. Janet, you might be

able to confirm that?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: Yes, that is my understanding.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just further to that again, we have to be concerned

when we are dealing with the federal government. What year of that commitment

are we in?

MS COLE: This is the first year of the commitment.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Again, maybe this is a silly question but in terms of the amount of funding,

do we put ours there and they match it, or do they put it out and we match it?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Hopefully, in a couple of years' time we will sit down and maintain at a

level

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: Across all of government, we have numerous of these types of

agreements.

MR. A. PARSONS: Hopefully, again, this being the first time, when we sit

down and do this process next year many of these questions will

MR. JACKMAN: Come naturally.

MR. A. PARSONS: We will know what it is all about.

Just under Student Support Services, 3.3.01, I believe Mr. Kirby has already

asked some questions on that, so again I am going to hope I do not ask the same

ones.

Going down to Purchased Services here did we touch this

section earlier?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay, just for further clarification for my purposes.

MR. JACKMAN: If you are looking at going from $132,000 to $153,000, there

was a Conners' Rating Scales it is an educational scale that is used to rate

behavioural issues around ADHD and all of that kind of stuff. Thus, the reason

for that increase is that was specifically carried out. A specific initiative

aimed at a specific need, so that was conducted there.

MR. A. PARSONS: So that explains why the difference between Budget and

Revised amount.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

MR. A. PARSONS: For this year where there is a reduction, what does not

have to be done this year that was budgeted for 2011?

MR. JACKMAN: Well, I suppose if you want to get fine-tuned details about

it, we can get it for you. As an example, the Conners' Rating Scale that I

mentioned to you would not be required, and instruments of that nature may not

be required. So, through a prediction, this is what we felt, based on what we

have itemized that we would need, we figured that this would meet the need in

the department for this coming year.

MR. A. PARSONS: I guess a general question to this section. The NLTA just

put out a press release, I believe, yesterday. I guess it was a response to the

Budget where their statement was: No additional teachers, student assistants,

training or professional development has been provided for the delivery of

student support services and if the new inclusion philosophy is to be

implemented as designed, schools would need extra resources in many areas.

What would be the response to that concern that they have expressed?

MR. JACKMAN: One of the things, I believe it is in twenty-five schools we

are having a pilot

OFFICIAL: For inclusion?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes. How many schools?

OFFICIAL: For inclusion, it would be up to 132 as of this coming year.

MR. JACKMAN: We now have gone with an inclusion model in our schools.

Coming from the educational system, there is no doubt there will always be

ongoing changes around curriculum and issues. As research evolves around autism,

or other types of learning disabilities and behavioural issues, you will always

be adjusting.

Our commitment to education through increased student assistant support,

funding through workshops for autism or other spectrum disorders, we have funded

that substantially. My response to the NLTA with that is that will remain

ongoing. Work with us, and we will come up with the best model that we can

collectively in the Province.

We are not at odds with the NLTA on this. I think if the NLTA or anybody else

were to go back and look at it and like I said, put politics aside. Look at

the investment in education over the last number of years, it has probably been

one of the best that we have had in the Province.

MR. A. PARSONS: I am just wondering about the PASS program, Positive

Action for Student Success. I believe there has been $1 million over two years

committed in 2011. What, to date, has been spent on this program? Is there

something that is new or I am just trying to get a little more understanding

of that specific area.

MR. JACKMAN: Do you want to speak to the program? I think it is a

wonderful program.

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: It started in 2010 with monies through the Poverty

Reduction Strategy. It was focusing on at-risk students and students who had

been out of school, and trying to get them back. You are looking at credit

recovery and credit rescue, those who have probably been unsuccessful in a

course and then taking them from there, where they were, and making them

successful. So you are looking at credit recovery and credit rescue.

In 2010, there were schools throughout the Province that were designated.

There are seven formally, and some additional ones that school districts took

on. It is a model that was known in student success throughout some other

provinces as well in trying to address the needs in more of an individual way in

a school setting, not as structured for those students to try to keep them

engaged. So far, as the evaluation has gone through, it has been very

successful.

MR. JACKMAN: I think there was a time when some of these kids would have

just dropped from the system, fare-thee-well, do whatever you can. Now we are

reaching out to those who are still within the system, who are struggling for

whatever reason, and getting some of them to graduate.

MR. A. PARSONS: Just to clarify, so the commitment for this year's budget

matches what

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: It is the same match for that as well, yes. As I said,

some school districts are also doing some additional units based on that model

through their own allocation.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Thank you, Andrew.

Dale.

MR. KIRBY: You mentioned something that time which sort of jogged my

memory. Maybe I will ask this question now so I do not forget it.

We are talking about children who are in challenging situations and so on. Of

course, many of these children, their families are tenants of Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing Corporation. In the Budget Speech this year, it was noted that

a program that is provided through the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

Corporation which provides stipends to families for school attendance, that this

would be continued and it is a successful program, or the implication is that it

is a successful program.

I know the funding is provided through Newfoundland and Labrador Housing and

not the Department of Education, but I am just wondering: Has the Department of

Education looked at this program to see whether or not genuinely it has

demonstrable impacts on graduation rates for students whose families receive

that funding?

MR. JACKMAN: I am not aware that we would track that through the

Department of Education. It is something I will follow-up on. I will tell you

one of the things that I have had some discussions with my deputy about is that

we invest money in some of the lower, social economic areas to try and keep kids

in school and whatnot. One of the things we have discussed is tracking to see

how many kids are graduating, are attending post-secondary schooling.

More specific to your point, it is something I want to follow-up on myself.

It is an interest I have in other investments that we make in the Province, to

see that we do not just invest and then hope. We invest and see what has

actually happened.

MR. KIRBY: Yes.

I would like to believe that the investment of those funds does lead to

improved graduation rates for children who are tenants (inaudible).

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, but I would still like to see it concrete though.

MR. KIRBY: Yes, I would like to see that there are demonstrable impacts

on achievement on an annual basis, because a child could attend school and not

achieve nor graduate in the end.

Which brings me to another point, because in my work as an academic in the

past I have studied the situation of students who well, in the absence of

official status, I guess they do have official status. I mean the students who

are labelled by the education system or by individuals in the education system

as being in Level IV are really in Level III. They are just back for another bat

at Level III. That can be a second bat at Level III or a third bat at Level III,

or God help us, further time in Level III. That has been called Level IV and

sometimes it is called Level V if a student is back for a third time trying to

finish senior high school.

In the work we have done, and certainly it has been communicated across the

country, we have seen that oftentimes these are the children who are falling

between the cracks. While there are allocations made and funding made for

teacher allocations in schools, it would appear in some instances, at least the

ones we researched at Memorial, that these students are not getting the same

physical space. So those children are meeting in the lunchroom or they are

meeting in the library, because the times when they are supposed to meet there

is no classroom available to them.

They are relegated to course offerings that are not necessarily their

preference because there really isn't a place for them. There are problems with

scheduling. There are situations where students have a patchwork, checkerboard

sort of

schedule of classes. You did not get your math last year, so you have

that at 9:00 a.m. Then you have to have a social studies course, so you have

geography at 1:30, but there is no classroom for you in the school. There is no

space for you in the school. You are not supposed to be loitering in the hall.

If the library is not available, where are you supposed to go?

There are questions around the supervision of these students. A lot of these

students go for a smoke off school grounds, or they go over to Tim Hortons or

McDonald's to hang out. Then, in the end, they just pip off for the rest of the

day because it does not seem like there is any point in staying in the general

proximity of the school for all that time. I can obviously go on and on and on,

there are so many issues with these so-called Level IV students.

Has the department undertaken any new initiatives, or are there any plans for

new initiatives to address these students? Because, to me, if we truly have this

workforce pressure that is upcoming, with 70,000 new positions coming available

and so on, it would seem that these bright, young people whose skill is really

underutilized in the current education system, they would be folks that we would

need; we need every single Newfoundlander and Labradorian to fill our labour

force needs in the future. It pains me to see so many of these young people not

succeeding.

I think I had a Freedom of Information Act request from the department that

showed the graduation rates were about 20 per cent less for students who went to

Level IV versus students who are graduating making it through in the

prescribed amount of time.

Is there any plan afoot to deal with that or has any research been done by

the department itself on the status of these Level IV students and what might be

done to help them?

MR. PIKE: I wish I had brought the list. We started, obviously, some

thinking around what we call alternative pathways to graduation. Actually, our

PASS initiative that was referred to earlier on was around supporting these

students who have challenges going through the system on a regular time frame,

and I wish I had the list of initiatives, but certainly

MR. JACKMAN: We can certainly provide it.

MR. PIKE: We started, in November, supplementaries to public exams

targeting the highest needs areas so students could come back, and we allocated

units to capture the most students we possibly could so they did not have to

stay for the full year.

So we think our concept and I am sure we will build on it over the years

is not one sort of solution, here is a Level IV student, because they have a

variety of needs, but our approach has been to create what we call multiple

pathways to graduation and have multiple solutions to meet the different needs

that a child would have who did not successfully graduate Level III on time.

What is the answer to that? Obviously, our support through distance

education, we have done extra support to support students who just did not get

the right marks to go back, so they could actually write the exam in August

through supports through distance education and CDLI resources; and November;

and the additional units to have compressed schedules on target core areas.

So those are three initiatives that come right to mind and the PASS would

be the fourth. I am sure I am missing a couple, and I am sure in another year or

two we will add to that list and we will five or six what we are calling

alternative pathways to graduation. Certainly, the department is aware and

working on trying to be creative around addressing as many students as we can

around, but there is no one solution, that magic bullet. The students do not

represent a homogenous sort of they are all different and you have to try to

get to those needs as particular as you can.

MR. JACKMAN: I think another thing that has happened is that some of

these kids who may go to Level IV and then not finish, they go into the

workforce and they soon recognize that I need that piece of paper. I think some

of them are coming back for the GEDs and these types of activities.

If there is one thing as an educator that I am pleased with in today's

environment, is a lot of the students who struggled through academically in a

workforce are doing extremely well now. I can list off to you examples of young

people who went through my school system who were not university bound, but as

the guy in the paper, the streeter', said to reaction to the Budget one of

the guys on the left, I cannot remember his name, he referred to that trades

people now are being looked at differently than they were ten, fifteen years ago

and a lot of these people who are Level IVs are advancing and going into those

and leading very, very productive lives and doing quite well financially in

their jobs.

CHAIR: Thank you, Dale.

Andrew.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am going to go back to Student Support Services, 3.3.02, Atlantic Provinces

Special Education Authority. I am just wondering: There is an extra $119,000 in

Grants and Subsidies for this year, what the rationale for that is?

MR. JACKMAN: Atlantic Provinces Special Education Authority, you often

hear people refer to it as APSE; it is a school that operates out of Nova Scotia

that all the Atlantic Provinces have partnerships in. They deal with students

with visual and hearing impairments. Your take up on it, by different provinces,

vary from year to year. We had a pot built up because we probably had not used

as much; that pot is run out now. So to stay a part of that, we needed that

investment.

MR. A. PARSONS: Thank you.

I am going to move on I guess it is on the same page, but on

section

3.3.03, Supports for Deaf and Hard of Hearing Students. I think we may have

referenced this earlier, but under a different section, so I just to ask about

this again.

The cut in Salaries is due to I guess there are less teachers needed with

the closing of the school. Is that what it was?

MR. JACKMAN: If we look at the $492,000 and then if we go to what is

being estimated this year, there was a salary continuance and a severance

package for two employees that was budgeted for. That now is finished.

Therefore, we are estimating a requirement of $374,000.

MR. A. PARSONS: The slight difference of just say $17,000 or $18,000 in

what was, I guess, in excess last year of what was budgeted, that was due to

severance?

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, and I am expecting that it do you want to speak to it

more specifically?

MS COLE: The slight increase there in 2011-2012, we actually hired an

additional interpreter for a portion of the year. This is the budget for the

interpreters who are out in the school system as a result of the kids from the

School for the Deaf going into the regular system. We identified a requirement

during this year for an interpreter for just part of the year.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. JACKMAN: (Inaudible) going from $492,800 up to $510,000; the

difference in the Estimates for 2012-2013 is that the severance and salary

continuance will not be paid out.

MR. A. PARSONS: I guess the difference in Supplies here between what was

budgeted and what was spent looks like it was $50,000 even.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes, this was a special request for applied materials and

whatnot for some students.

MR. A. PARSONS: Can I get a little more specific on that? Again, it works

out to such a round number.

MR. JACKMAN: Yes.

Do you have the specifics?

MS VIVIAN-WALSH: (Inaudible) FM systems that the students use.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay, so were these at the School for the Deaf?

MR. PIKE: A number of students in the system are deaf or hard of hearing.

Hard of hearing students use FM systems. We updated the FM systems into newer

technology.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

MR. PIKE: It would not just be students with hearing impairments. When

the closure of the School for the Deaf occurred, there were very few students

left remaining. This would be beyond those students. Some of those students

would not be using FM systems would be communicating through American Sign

Language, which is the roving interpreter.

MR. A. PARSONS: Okay.

Just a question, does the department anticipate any added costs given the

inclusion strategy that has been announced?

MR. JACKMAN: In terms of?

MR. A. PARSONS: Are you anticipating extra costs associated with the

strategy, like the implementation of the strategy? Like with the sign language

MR. JACKMAN: Well, yes.

Janet can speak to the specifics of it, but go back to the basic concept of

having students work with their peers. That is an individual student's needs and

then school boards will look after those accordingly. Will there be