LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wedneaday, 15 May, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speeker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Pet itions . . . Presenting �eports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wish to table the Annual Report of Manitoba Culture, Heritage and Recreation for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1984. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. R FOX introduced, by leave, Bill No. 41,

An Act to amend

An Act to incorporate "First Presbyterian Church Foundation"; and, by leave, Bill No. 42,

An Act to amend

An Act to incorporate "The Winnipeg Real Estate Board". ORAL QUESTIONS Manitoba - bilingual province MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is for the Acting Premier. I wonder if she could ind icate if it is the position of the Provincial Government that Manitoba is an officially bilingual province. MR. SPEAKER: Honourable Mi nister for Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: We ll, Mr. Speaker, there's been a lot of debate on that issue in this House and I think the current position of the law, until the Supreme Cour t comes to a decision, is as found in

an act passed by the other side of the House when they were the government. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker , may I ask if it is the position of this NDP admi nistration that they should re fer to Manitoba as an officially bilingual province? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I think that receives the same answer as the previous question. We had made our position abundantly clear. There is disagreement as to meaning and

interpretation, and it's before the Supr eme Court at the moment. I think we are all well advised to wait until we receive clarification from them. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Acting Premier could ind icate whether or not Crown corporations and government agency heads have been instructed to act as though the province was officially bilingual. HON. M. SMITH: No, Mr. Speaker . MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, then I wonder if I could ask the question of the Minister responsible for M PlC.

I wonder if he could Indicate whether he has instructed the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation, principally through the president and general manager, to write to people who have opposed the use of bilingual applications for Autopac and to say to them, "These guidelin es were developed in response to a ruling by the Supreme Court of Canada which upheld the provisions of the British North America Act designating Manitoba as an officially bilingual province." MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Mr.

Speaker , I will have to review my correspondence with the general manager to see If, in fact, I said that. I can't specifically confirm or deny that at this time. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if he would further ask the general manager then to share with him corre spondence that the general manager had with a constituent of this Minister in Gimll, who, inquiring about this matter , was told the quote that I said that Manitoba is an officially bilingual province. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Ye s, I'd certainly be pleased to look into that. I would appreciate the name of the constituent.

As you are well aware, we have probably hundreds of thousands of pieces of correspondence. I'll follow that up. Tax reform, propoeed MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker , I have a question for the Deputy Premier. Did the First Mi nister make a specific proposal at the meeti ng of Western Premiers with respect to tax reform? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. · HON. M. SMITH: Mr . Speaker , I think it's most appropriate to wait for the Premier's return to put that question to him. I think the general approach of the 1992

w.dne.day, 15 May, 1885 Government of Manitoba in the area of tax reform has been repeated on many occasions. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker , I'm interested in knowing whether the province has made a specific proposal. We know of some of the general comments that have been made, but lt would be interesting to know whether they had made a specific proposal, and whether or not that proposal will be shared with members of the House? Flyer Industries - number of buses MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Ver end rye. MR. A. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct my question to the Minis ter res ponsible for Flyer Industries and would ask him If he could inf orm the Hous e how many buses the public ly-owned company, Flyer Industries, will manufacture this year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 1 don't have the num ber readily available, I can provide that Information to him subsequent to question period tod ay. Provincial Parka - May opening MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question Is to the Minister of Natural Resources.

Some time ago, and during the Estimates, there see med to be some confusion as to whether all the provincial parks would be in operation for the upcomlng long wee kend. I wonder If the Min ister could ind icate whether all provincial parks are going to be open for the public for the upcomlng long weekend. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Natural Resources . HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, as I recall, that discussion centred on the question of campgrounds, not parks, so that there is a difference of opening dates as between campgrounds and parks.

In some of the campgrounds, we are going to be delaying the opening for budge tary reasons as was stated du ring the Estimates Review. The park openings should be on schedule, Mr. Speaker. Lynn Lake - interim report re crisis MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakes ide. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable Min ister for Energy and Mines. Sometime In March, I believe the Mini ster received an interim report prepared for the department by the University of Manitoba, by Mr. Thomas Henley and Mr.

Douglas Barrett, about the growing crisis that Is developing in the mining community of Lynn Lake. There were a num ber of recommendations made and, of course, a number of requests made for some specific action by the community of Lynn Lake. Has the government procee ded to act on any of those recommendations? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker , we have indeed taken that report and referred lt to an interdepartmental committee of deputies. They have gone through it; there have been matters raised before the Economic and Resource Investment Committee of Cabinet.

We are, Indeed, looking to follow through on some of the measures that they have proposed. We are looking at all the measures that they have proposed to determine whethe r, in fact, they are viable or not, as we Ind icated we would when we launched the process, because frankly the whole process of consultation with the community has been, in a sense, underwritten by draw downs from the Mining Community Reserve Fund which Is admin istered by the Department of Energy and Mines. Mining Community Reserve Fund - assistance to Lynn Lake MR. H. ENNS: A question, Mr.

Speaker, specifically on the matter of the fund that the Mi nister refers to, which was set up for precisely this purpose. Has the government committed any part of that fund to meet some of the specific requests? The rev italization plan at Lynn Lake has identified some 44 projects. Has any part of that $4 million to $5 million fund been dedicated to assist the community of Lynn Lake? HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, we have certainly ind icated to the community that we are prepared to commit monies for purposes that show viability and for purposes of transition for the community when lt goes through the transition of having the Fox Lake Mine closed. Those num bers associated with transition have not been identified fully yet . We have a process in place whereby, hopeful ly, more of those costs will be Identified.

With respect to specific projects per se, we have not funded for specific projects, but there are a numb er of things that we are looking at which I think will have some beneficial im pact to the community of Lynn Lake, not the least of which will be a training program geared to training people for work at the Limestone development. We are having consultations right now with people In the communi ty of Lynn Lake, saying what we might do to do some of the training within that community. North of Portage Development - committed government apace MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MERCIEA: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Mini ster of Government Services. Could the Mini ster 1993

WednMday, 15 May, 1185 of Government Services indicate how much office space the province Is committed to taking in the proposed commercial office space which is part of the North of Portage development? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mini ster of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, we do have a commitment along with the federal level of government to absorb a certain amount of office space in the development if certain conditions are met, particularly with regard to the price range, the cost and the prevailing market conditions at that particular time.

So there is an agreement that we will be facilitating the development by committing a significant amount of space, in the neighbourhood of 50,000 square feet per level of government, in the development. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister indicate to the House the cost per square foot of the space to be taken? Who Is going to move into this space in this new commercial development? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker , those kinds of details have not been defined. Certainly this is conceptual at this stage, and has not been defined in the kind of detail that the honourable member Is asking about.

There are a number of variables and factors that have to be considered before that is finalized, but that is an agreement in principle as part of our commitment to the development plan. Free Press property - acquisition by government MR. G. MERCIER: Mr . Speaker , a supplementary question to the Minister of Urban Affairs. Could the Minister of Urban Affairs Indicate whether he has now decided on whether or not the Province of Manitoba will proceed to acquire the 50-foot piece of Free Press property Involved in the expropriation in the development north of Portage Avenue? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Urban Affairs. HON. L DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker , that is a decision that is being made by the corporation, yes. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, what is the decision? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Does my honourable friend remember when he was sitting on this side of the House, they started the notice of expropria tion and the decision at the last meeting made by the corporation that they would have to have that property. There was a meeting held with the principal of the Free Press last week in Toronto to Inform them of that. Careerstart Program - criteria re applications MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Employment Services. On Monday of this week, Mr. Speaker, I requested of the Minister the career-related list which the government obviously has priorized cer tain job industries to be providing more equitable training and work experience. Could the Minister prov ide me with that prorated list of most desirable from least desirable Industries in which students under Careerstart can be employed? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Employment Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, questions along those lines were asked yesterday, and we Indicated there is no such list which prlorizes occupational skills. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, my supplementary involves a

preamble which is a quote from a letter of refusal to a constituent who applied under Careerstart: "After careful consideration, we have assessed the position you applied for as providing less of a career­ related skill de velopment work experience than other positions re quested. In view of the fact that obviously some ind ustries are rated higher than others, could the Mi nister care to explain on what basis a refusal for employment under Careerstart by a farmer in my constituency was refused if such a rating list does not exist?" HON. L.

EVANS: Mr. ·speaker, as has been made available to the community through the literature that goes out, we take various criteria Into considera tion, one of which is the fact that we have to be assured that there is a net additional job being crea ted, that we're not simply handing money out to a manufacturer, a service industry emplo yer, or whoever he is, just simply to subsidize the operation. We want to ensure that there Is another new job that wouldn't be created otherwise.

In addition to that, the staff look at various matters with regard to the type of employment being offered, and as I explained yesterd ay, we usually opt If there Is a priority; if there Is a decision to be made we opt for that kind of an occupation that will provide a greater challenge. · Having said that, Mr. Speaker, I repeat what I said yesterda y, hundreds of farmers had been approved under this program this year. Many hundreds have been approved and are in place. Regrettably we don't have as much money as we'd like to have. But I might add also, Mr. Spea ker, I would repeat what I said the other day.

Although 60 percent of the population of Manitoba lives in Winnipeg, we have far more mone y going into rural Manitoba proportionately than into the City of Winnipeg and the members from Winnipeg could argue that it isn't fair. I am suggest ing, Mr. Speaker , that rural Manitoba Is getting more than a proportionate share under this program. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, the Minister can duck and avoid the question as much as he wishes, but obviously his department is rating jobs according to the applicant. My question to the Minister is, in the event of an appeal made by an applicant who has been 1994

........., 15 Milt 1811 refu sed, do the same people who made the refu sal, review the appeal? HON. L. EVANS: There is a procedure whereby the regional manager looks at the appeal process. So there is somebody else involved in the appeal process. I think we're trying to be as fair as possible, and I can certainly provide more information to the honourable member if he wants to discuss it during the Estimates. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, it's interest ing that the Minis ter would say the regional manager is involved in the appeal process. This letter of refusal is signed by the regional manager .

Does this mean that the person who made the refusal reviews his own work? Is that the kind of kangaroo court appeal system we've got in the Careerstart system? HON. L. EVANS: Order please. Mr. Speaker, I'll read from a document here on the appeal process. "If an employer requests to formally appeal the decision for reject ion, he or she should submit in writing any additional information in support of the appeal to the program manager, copy to the regional manager or program administrator. "The regional manager or program administrator should then forward a copy of the application in written

summary of background information together with his or her recommendation to the program manager. "The senior manager and director will review the appeal and notify the employer in writing of the outcome of the appeal and a copy of the letter will be forwarded to the regional manager and the program administrator.'' .. Legisltive Building - side and rear entrance gates MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Minn edosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Mi nister responsible for Government Services.

I wonder if he could advise the House when the gates in place at the side and the rear entrances to the building will be in place this year. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Mi nister of Government Services. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that question as notice. Farm enterprise loan through MACC - waiting period for farmers MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River . MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I dir ect a question to the Acting Minister of Agriculture.

Can the Min ister advise the House that a farmer of today making an application for a farm enterprise loan through MACC will be required to wait 1995 approximately five months for a confirmation or a denial of his application? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that question as notice and report back to the House. MTS - involvement in retail sales MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Vere ndrye. MR. A. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct my question to the Minis ter respon sible for the Manitoba Te lephone System and would ask him, in light of the fact that there is growing opposition and concern about MTS's involvement in the retail sales of home computers and radio equipment, could the Minister inform us whether or not the corporation is reviewing its policy of competing with small businessmen in the Province of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, the Manitoba Te lephone System is a major employer of people in the province. lt's very important that we maintain a viable corporation to provide service to the people of Manitoba and we are concerned to facilitate the continuance of those operat ions; and where there are ancillary operations that complement the operation of that corporation, it would be foolhardy to close our eyes to opportunities to faci litate that enrichment of the operations of the corpora tion . MR. A. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, since none of this equipment is manufactured in Manitoba and MTS is in direct competition with small businessmen who are facing tough times with regard to such things as payroll taxes and a number of other things, could the Min ister inform the House whether or not he will be asking MTS to review their policy of gett ing into the retail selling business, an area which I suggest to the Minister should be left up to the small re tailers who are struggling in this province and MTS should be getting out of it? HON. A. MACKLING: Wel l, Mr .

Speaker, it is very interesting to see this new-fo und concern on the part of the members of the opposition with the struggling small business in Manitoba. it is this gover nment that has facilit ated and encouraged small business in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, a lot of the opera tions of the Manitoba Te lephone System engender further retail and manufacturing act ivity in this province and faci litate a great deal of merchandising in this province that wouldn't otherwise occur without the ef forts of the Manitoba Te lephone System. it is interest ing, Mr.

Speaker, that at least some members of the opposition were concerned when the Te lephone corpora tion was looking at the introduction of ancillary services, to be concerned that at least it operate on a profit basis rather than service and, Mr. Speaker, the concern of this government is that

WedneaclaJ, 15 May, 1985 corporation provide service to the people of Manitoba and facilitate employment in this province. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speak er, I wonder if I could ask the Minister what business sense or what rationale does the government employ in justifying the sale of home computers like Commodore 64 which are manufactured outside of the province and are sold by all the small little ret ailers that are struggling in the province, what rationale does he use that MTS should be selling small home comp uters in competition with the small businessmen in this province? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, we on this side are concerned to provide an opportunity for our corporations to take advantage of the systems that they employ to produce reve nues for the people of Manitoba, to ensure that the black telephone rate is kept at a rea sonable cost, Mr. Speaker, and we are not ideologically hidebound that we are not prepared to look at use of the corpora tion to facil itate the interests of the people of Manitoba. I think we have to be watchful and concerned about the extent to which the corporation does compete. I, for one, want to make sure that that area of competition is fair and just.

I cert ainly want to review all the areas in which the corporation operates, but we do that without ideological bli nkers. FAST alarm system - losses subsidized by MTS customers MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Te lephone System. Can the Minister confirm that the FAST alarm system, which was introduc ed to provide revenues and profits to subsidize the black telephone, and their telephone customers in Manitoba have now lost in excess of $2.5 million? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mini ster of Labour.

HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I can confirm that the FAST system, which honourable members may suggest is compe ting with other systems, was authorized when the Honour able Member for Pembina was the Minister re sponsible for the Manitoba Tel ephone System and the approval was given, Mr. Speaker, because it would be a profit centre - and that was the basis of approval, not service - that it would be a profit centre to facilitate the corpora tion. Mr.

Speaker, the Hono urable Member for Pembina was advised then that the system would take some years to develop, market development, and he heard during the course of the Estimates, or the review of the corporation before the committee just the other day, that the pickup in application and the development of this system is growing very quickly now that it has received a significant startup in Manit ioba. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, despite all of the Minis ter's rhetoric, could he answer the question as to whether the FAST system, since its inception, has loss in excess of $2.5 million, thereby being subsidized by the telphone customer of Manitoba? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I will confirm that at the time the system was authorized by a prev ious government and a pre vious Min ister, the Member for Pembina, the corporation advised that during the startup period there would be losses but that overall the system would be success ful; and their expectations, as reviewed very very care fully by the Member for Pembina during that committee, did not undermine that finding by the corpora tion. MR. D. ORCHARD: Would the Mi nister then provide us with the enterprise ac counted losses to date of FAST?

When he is providing that information, could he also provide in formation to the House as to whether approximately 70 percent of the customers of the FAST system are serviced to Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation units in the city at a vastly lower rate, subsidized by the Te lephone System and the FAST system? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speake r, if you had been present during the sittings of the committee, you would know that these questions have already been asked, already been put by the honour able member in committee, are an abuse of this House in asking the questions again and again when he has received responses in committee. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, neither the Mini ster nor the Te lephone System supplied the answer as to· the losses in the FAST system to date.

Since it was to be profitable this year, accord ing to the original timetable on its implementati on, would the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Te lephone System provide this House with the loss to date by the FAST system, which has been subsidized by telephone customers in Manitoba, the exact opposite to the song and dance he is giving us this afternoon? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I neither sing or dance about the telephone corporation; I tell the truth. Mr.

Speaker, the Te lephone System, when it brought the proposal to the Member for Pembina, was given a green light for that on the basis that in time it would be a profitable operation. The time frame has not elapsed, Mr. Speaker, has not elapsed. The honourable member waxed very oloquent during the course of that committ ee, saying that he was concerned about the corporat ion competing, and yet he was the Mi nister who authorized the corporation to go into a competitive service, provided it made a profit. Mr. Speaker, he can't have it both ways. Mr.

Speaker , this Mi nister, unlike former Min isters, will take the corporat ion. give it an opportunity to develop that market and make the profit that it says it will. MR. D. ORCHARD: In view of the fact that the Minis ter has now answered the question we have been trying to get to him, that telephone systems do not always 1996

Wednewr. 15 Mar. 1M5 make mone y in their retai ling operation, will he review the policy to assure that private sector businesses are not adversely affected and that the telephone customer is not cross-subsidizing those ancil lary services such as the sale of computers, Te xas Instruments - Speak and Spells - and other equipment available freely to the private sector re tailing businesses in Manitoba? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I have already given the honourable member assurance - mind you, he wasn't listening - that I think In its application, the application of the corporation, we must be mindful of its competitive effect In respect to small business and we must be concerned about that. But we must also be concerned about ensuring the continua nce and existence of that service for the people of Manitoba. Pay Equity legislation MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, yesterday the Mini ster of Labour ind icated he would be Introducing pay equity legislation at this Session of the Legislature. In 1981, the New Democratic Party promised that an equal pay for work of equal value law would be passed in Manitoba. Could the Min ister of Labour ind icate how the government's concept of pay equity differs from the concept of equal pay for work of equal value? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speak er, the message that we received from Her Honour contained a message in respect to pay equity which this government will be honouring. MR. G.

MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , would the Minis ter of Labour ind icate how that message from Her Honour differs from the message the New Democratic Party gave to the people of Manitoba in 1981; and how does the govern ment's concept of pay equity differ from their election promise of an equal pay for work of equal value law? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I hardly think it Is a proper question to ask a Min ister of the Crown to account for something said by an outside organization a few years ago. WOuld the honour able member wish to rephrase his question? The Honourable Member for St. Norbert.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, as we read this document we can understand why they want to treat it as coming from an outside organization. Mr. Speaker, would the Mini ster of Labour indic ate how the government's concept of pay equity differs from equal pay for work of equal value from that principle? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased that the Honourable Member for St. Norbert is anxious and eager to participate in the debate on the bill and the provisions of the bill, but I think it's inappropriate for us to enga ge in that until the bill has been tabled.

Garrison Diversion - retention of lobbyist MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minis ter of Natural Resources. Does the department still retain the paid lobb yist In Washington to work on the Garrison issue? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. S. USKIW: Ye s, Mr. Speaker, we still have a presence In Washington and it will be there until the matter has been decided at least by, I believe, congressional action. MR. B.

RANSOM: A supplem entary to the Min ister, is that presence a person emp lo yed di rectly by the Manitoba Government or is that a Washington law firm? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I can take the question as notice to be precise, but as my recollection has it it's a legal firm that has been retained for whatever purpose that may arise. Inter-City Gas Manitoba Pipelines MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last week, the Acting Min ister of Energy and Mines took a question and I was wondering if the Min ister of Energy and Mines now has the answer. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Energy and Mines. HON. W PARASIUK: I believe, Mr. Speaker, the Acting Min ister took a numb er of questions as notice. I don't know which one he's referring to. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Mem ber for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker, I feel sorry for the people of the Province of Manitoba If there is no communication between Min isters on the other side of the House, but I would ask spe cifically If the Min ister would answer the question which the Acting Minis ter of Energy and Mines took last week and said that the Min ister would be providing the answer.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The honourable member knows that he should not ask meaningl ess questions. The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 1997

Wednesday, 15 May, 1985 I accept the admonition, but the question was probably more appropriate to the Mi nister because I haven 't received an answer as yet . So I will now ask the Mi nister specifically If he can provide me with the bid prices of the various firms that bid for the gas pipeline from Waskada to Cromer? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Energy and Mines. HON. W PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that matter up with the board that reviewed all the applications. They weren't bids specifica lly; they were applications, proposals relating to a whole set of criteria.

I'll certainly take that matter up and bring back the set of criteria and the information. MR. H. GRAHAM: I will refer the Min ister to his release of March 2nd of'84 where he said, "The other bidding companies were," and it goes on to list them. MTS - telephone answering service hookup MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct a question to the Minister responsible for Manitoba Te lephone System and ask the Minister if he can advise the House that MTS will not hook up a telephone answering device in my MLA office unless I lease it or purchase it from MTS?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe those are the regulations, but I will inquire to be certain of that. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that I have just recently moved into a new MLA office, and because I have my own answering device, the business office in Brandon said that they could not hook up my answering device unless it was purchased or leased from MTS. Vicon and union representing Co-op Implements - decision regarding MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russel l. MR. W McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minis ter of Tec hnology. The deadlock talks between Vicon and the union repres enting Co­ op Implements has been going on for weeks. I wonder if the Mini ster has an announcement. Has it been settled, or is there any idea of when it might be settled? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: As I answered the same question some time ago, the discussions between Vicon and the union had concluded some time ago.

The decision with respect to Vicon and its potential operations in the Province of Manitoba was resting with the board of the current company and I'm Informed that decision will be made shortly. Ethiopian relief - government contribution MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, yesterday I asked the Deputy Prem ier a question as to what assistance the Provincial Government has provided to Ethiopia and other African countries suffering from famine. I wonder if the Deputy Premier has an answer today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M.

SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I don't have that response yet. Mosquito infestation - monitoring of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pem bina. MA. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I believe my question is for the Mi nister of the Environment; I think this falls under his responsibil ity. Mr. Speaker , my question to the Mini ster of the Environment is this: how quickly does he expect to have his sentinel flocks for the monitoring of mosquito populations in Manitoba in place? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of the Environment. HON. G. LECU YER: I don't know the details of that, Mr.

Speaker, so I'll bring forth some answers. I do know they've hatched though. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I concur with the Honourable Minister that mosquitoes have hatched; I've been chewed to death this spring. Now, on the other hand, if the Minister Is refe rring to chickens having hatched, they hatch year- round in this province in case the Min ister is not aware of that fact. Mr .

Speak er, I would ask the Mi nister of the Environment, in view of the cont roversy last year, or over the past several years, over the spraying program for the control of encephal itis-bearing mosquitoes, can the Mini ster ind icate whether the interdepartmental group, and he, as the Mini ster, has made a decision as to which chemical the province would prefer to use in any mosquito abatement program? HON. G. LECU YER: I consider that question highly hypothetical, Mr. Speaker. We have certainly not at this point in time. If the member Is asking about the sentinel 1998

flocks, and we're going to base the decision among other factors as taking that as one of the factors into consideration, we certalnly haven't in any way, shape or form made any decisions yet as to what we would use, should that be required. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MA. SPEAKER: Prior to Orders of the Day, may I direct the attention of members to the gallery where we have 23 students of Grades 5 and 6 standing from the Alexander school under the direction of Miss Lopez. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Mem ber for Min nedosa. On behalf of all the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. MA.

SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Ste. Rose. MA. A. ADAM: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could have leave to revert back to Presenting Petitions. I have a petition that should be presented before the dead line tomorr ow. MA. SPEAKER: Is ther e leave to revert back to Presenting Petitions? (Agreed) PRESENTING PETITIONS MA. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Ste. Rose. MA. A. ADAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. 1 beg to present a petition of les reverends pares oblats, praying for the passing of

an Act to amend

an Act to Incorporate les rev erends pares oblats in the Province of Manitoba; loi modifiant l'acte pour incorpore les reverends pares obla ts dans la province du Manitoba. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MA. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now that we've reverted back to presenting petitions, I also, Mr. Speaker, beg to present the petition of Niakwa Country Club praying for the passing of

an Act to amend

An Act to incorporate Niakwa Countr y Club. ORDERS OF THE DAY MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would you please call Bill No. 2. ADJOURNED DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS BILL 2 - THE HEALTH SERVICES ACT MA. SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Hono urable Mini ster of Health, Bill No. 2, the Honourable Member for Pembina. MA. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to offer a few comments and pose a few scenarios to the Minister in debate on Bill No. 2 this afternoon.

Hopefully, the Minis ter in either closing debate or when we get to committee stage might be able to resolve some of the questions that are arising out of the passage of this bill. Mr. Speaker , the process of extra billing in Canada came under fire naturally with the passage of the Federal Health act, the national Health act, and Manitoba is now, I believe, with the passage of this legislation, will be the second province to have passed a ban on extra billing legislation.

Nova Scotia has one in place, and I'm not cert ain if another of the Maritime provinces does have their ban on extra billing legislation in place. Current ly, there is some considerable discussion ongoing between some of the larger provinces and Ottawa in terms of the dir ection this legislation will take the health care system, Ontario, British Columbia, Alberta being some of the provinces who have expressed certain concerns about the legislation. Mr.

Speaker, in Mani toba, it seems as if the issue of extra billing has not been, in the past, a matter of serious concern since I've been a member of this House, and that privilege has been there for physicians; it has not been exercised to a great degree. I believe we have something less than 5 percent of our physicians exercising the right currently , and those physicians are in a variety of discipli nes, some predominant ones having a numbe r of extra- billing physicians within their ranks and their numbers. Mr.

Speak er, the passage of this bill, and the proclamation of this bill - and I am making an assumption which the Mini ster can verify at a later date - I am making an assumption that, when this bill receives third read ing in the House that, in all probabil ity, it will be proclaimed immedi ately. Now, Mr. Speaker, I'm not certain whether the Min ister and the government have come to grips with some of the potential problems that the passage of this legislation will have amongst those physicians who are currently using their freedom to extra bill right now.

One profession within the groups of physicians, of course, psychiatrists are extra billing, and derive a certain portion of their income from the privilege of extra billing or the right to extra bill, if you will. Now it's my understanding, and the Min ister can correct me but I did bring this up during the debate on Estimates that, in passing their legislation in Nova Scotia, the provincial government sat down with, presumably the College of Physicians and Surgeons and the representative body of the physicians In Nova Scotia, and tried to dete rmine where some of the trouble spots were within the fee

schedule that existed prior to the Implementation and the banning of extra billing. lt is my understanding that set of negotiations allowed the passage of extra billing to basically happen as a non -event. Now most physicians in Manitoba I don't believe have any concerns one way or another at the present time with the passage of this legislation, because the vast majority of physicians in this province do not extra bill. But I'm not certain whether the Min ister and his department have come to grips with the problems and the scenarios that are being developed by those physicians who do currently extra bill, and will have that privile ge and that right removed, and what the 1999

w.dneldlly, 15 ... , 1185 circumstances will be in the province with that event occurring. In other words, them not being able to derive what they consider to be a reaso nable income through the vehicle of extra billing. That may cause Manitoba some problems. We note of late that we have had the loss of some physicians in Manitoba, ophthalmology being one discipline.

There certainly was significant cont roversy over - I almost used the Peter Warren, controversy - there were certainly some concerns expressed by members of the psychiatric commun ity, and I'm not certain the Mini ster has met those concerns and the government has met those concerns. That makes the passage of this legislation something that may be premature at this time until those concerns are add ressed or di scus sed and, hopeful ly, mutu ally resolved to the benefit of the people of Manitoba. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister has had a number of letters from patients who are utilizing psychiatric services in the Province of Manitoba. They are expressing a great deal of concern about the potential loss of their medical help with the disappe arance of extra billing and, as patients, they don't want to see that happ en.

These aren 't physicians who are complaining about the loss of extra billing; these are patients who are express ing those concerns to the Min ister, those same patients that are paying the extra billing, and from the tenor of the letters I have received copies of that went to the Minister, they are satisfied with the service they are getting and the benefit it is to them. So they are fearful of a degrading of their services in the Province of Manitoba with the ban on extra billing. So, Mr.

Speaker, that is one concern that I have right now as to whether the Minister has that area adequately resolved and discussed with the practitioners. The legislation, by itself, brings forward an anomaly in that, under the Canada Health Act, I do not believe that chiropractic services are included as part of the penalty clauses in extra billing. But yet, as we know in Manitoba, The Health Services Insurance Act does include a provision for reimbursement of chiro practic services. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the chiropractic profession, although it's only approximately 100 strong, have been include d In this act, even though the penalty clause federally does not include a penalty to the province for any extra billin g that chiro practors currently are engaged in. I can't tell you today whether any chir opractors extra bill over the fee schedule; I assume some must, but I don't even know that. But, Mr. Speaker, without them being include d by the Canada Health Act, it does appear to me to be an unn ecessary and unwarranted inclu sion of the chir opractors under this bill.

Furthermore, I am told that they were included without consultation as to being Included in the provisions of this bill. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the anomaly in that is that this government, by recent changes in the billing practice, and changes in the family billing practice, have in fact forced chir opractors who are taking care of chronic care patients, if you will, in the chir opractic field, this government and this Mi nister, through changes In the billing practice, are forcing the chiropr actors of the province to extra bill much sooner than they had to before under the Family Billing Program, for Instance, with a family of four, to reducing the plan-covered visits from some 33 down to 16; so that after the 16th visit that chronic care patient must now pay not simply an extra office charge, but the complete cost of his chir opractic care.

Now on the one hand the Minister and the government are sayi ng, we want to eliminate those additional patient-care costs that are imposed by extra billing of our physicians on cert ain of their patient groups. But on the other hand by their own decree of Cabinet, they have forced a complete extra billing on patients of the chiro practic profe ssion. Some of those patients who are extensive patients of the chi ropract ic profession will be paying for services much more quickly today than they were just six short months ago.

So on the one hand the government and this Mini ster are saying we want to protect the patient, the user of health care services in Manitoba; and on the other hand they have passed, by Cabinet decree and reg ulation, changes which force those patients of chir opractic care to foot more of the bill sooner themselves. lt is an anomaly, and it is a conflict of direction that this govern ment is providing to us in this legislation and that's not unusual. 'Ne have found often the government to be imprecise in its goals and direct ions and this is one example in this bill. Mr.

Speaker, I suspect that when we get Into the committee stage the Minister will want to answer some of these questions. The Min ister, in his Estimates and for the past several months, has been indicating that it is a desire of the government to get away from institutionalized health care. In other words, that applies across the board, not only to keeping seniors in their homes longer and hence not in perso nal care homes, but it also applies in the hospital system whereby this government is desirous of having more outpatient services performed outside of the hospital environment.

The reason and the logic behind it is good because the hospital institution is the most expensive area of medical service delivery that we have within the system and any effort to move services from the hospital se tting to a practitioner's office, a doctor's office or to the clinic scene will, in the long run, reduce the amount of money that we're spending on hospitals and perform the service more economically outside of the hospital scene. But, Mr. Speaker , with the passage of this bill which bans extra billing, the definition of extra billing becomes extremely Important. I'll give you a small example.

Let's say that a member of your family, Sir, has broken his or her arm. and the arm is in a cast. Now if the physician who changes the cast mid-healing process, does that in a hospital and ties up nursing staff, facilities, space, etc., etc., in the hospital, the materials used to reset that limb and to make the cast are all provided as part of the hospital expense; that's part of the supply scene within the hospital. But bear in mind the point the Min ister is making, that that's the most expensive place to perform that service. Now let's say that the physician changes the cast in his office.

All of a sudden, in his office, he is providing the facili ty. He is providing the materials, the plaster , the cast material, and he is providing the cleanup and probably the attendant staff who are going to help him. But, Mr. Speaker, under the fee system that is existing right now, that procedure is reimbursed to the physician 2000

for exactly the same number of dollars in the hospital setting as it is in the office setting, so that we encourage, in fact, the physician to go to the hospital to do that because he doesn't have to provide the space, the support staff and the supplies and the cleanup. So my question to the Mini ster, Is that charge for supplies going to be an extra billing that is allowed? Is the normal recovery of costs that are paid elsewhere in the system going to be considered extra billing? That's certainly not clear in this legislation.

Sir, that extends to a numb er of di agnostic procedures that are currently on the market and certain ly, with the advent of technology In medicine, will more and more be part of the physician's office services. Now one of them, of course, can be described quite easily as the ultrasound process. Current ly, that's done primarily in the hospital setting but yet it could very well be undertaken, where the equipm ent and the expertise is available, on an outpatient basis in a clinic or a doctor's office.

If that machine is owned by the physician or the physician group providing that service in a clinic or a doctor's office or group of offices, will the charge for the use of that facility , which is not owned by the hospital system be allowed, or will that be also considered to be extra billing? You see, Mr. Speaker, that example of outpatient services became rather an in teresting point of discussion dur ing the Estim ates because, in ophthalmo logy, one of the very top-notch ophthalmologists in Manitoba was operat ing a very similar -type operation in providing outpatient eye surgery out of Selkirk.

Indeed he was extra billing for that service, but he owned his own equipment, and probably was justified in a certain amount of extra billing to cover the costs of that extra equipment that he owned and not the province, through the hospital system. Mr. Speaker, the Health Services Commission is constantly faced with new procedures and requests for the inclusion of those new procedures to be part of the fee schedule. There is also a time Jag between the implementation of a new surgical procedure and Its Inclusion on the billing and on the fee schedule.

Is that time Jag in which the physician is charging for the service which is not on a fee

schedule going to be considered extra billing under this legislation once it's passed ? Because, were that the case, then we might find ourselves In the circumstance where new procedures and new technique s are thwarted from being brought to the Province of Manitoba. We may not be encouraging our physicians in the pursuit of excellence in their profess ion, but rather may be simply causing them to accept the status quo and not offer the kind of advance and change that is there in the medical system and provided by research and new technologies. So, Mr.

Speaker, in one of those examples we discu ssed fairly th oroughly In the Estimates as well in terms of the new process for kid ney stone removal . Mr.

Speake r, the Min ister has int roduced this legislation with very little comment, just saying that basically we're complying with The Canada Health Act. lt Is interesting to note that other provinces, and Ontario - I'm not certain what the status will be there now - but certainly Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia who are much more populous provinces than ours, have much highe r budgets In health than ours, seem to be hesitating in the implementation of this program.

I'm wondering if those provinces are seeing potential problems in this type of legislation that we aren't considering in Manitoba and I pose that question to the Min ister. The reason I pose that question is that today, in 1985, the loss of the right to extra bill in Manitoba will not affect that many physicians. lt has not presumably been utilized by very many physicians in Manitoba because, by and large, they have not seen theoretically the need to use it. In other words, their negotiation on fee

schedule presumably has been reaso nable in their estimation so that they did not have to undertake extra billing to maintain their Incomes, to maintain their offices, to maintain their staffs. Now, Mr. Speaker, I suppose the argument could be made by the fact that we have had physicians with the ability to extra bill, has allowed the two sides to negotiate very very openly and very very effectively. Maybe that has caused us in Manitoba to be at the very enviable position where very few of our physicians are indeed extra billing.

But now that this has gone and we are now into a trial period of compulsory arbitration - and I realize the two are not link-stepped - but now that we are in the process of compulsory binding arbitration between the government and the MMA, maybe there will be a point in time in the future where the right to extra bill may be the only way that physicians can maintain their professional freedom within the Medicare system .

That doesn't exist today and, hence, I think that is fair reason why probably a substantial majority of the medical profession today don't object to, or at least are not objecting In an open way, to the loss of extra billing. But, Mr. Speaker, the funding, the health care system and the funding for it, and the whole area of delivery of medicine is changing at such a dramatic rate today. I think I used the example back in the Estimates that 80 percent of the technology in medicine today has been perfected in the last five years, since 1980.

That is a rapidly changing profession with rapidly changing priorities and rapidly changing demands on funding. Maybe the ban on extra billing today which doesn't represent a major enough issue for the majority of physicians in this province to take the govern ment on and to fight with the government over it today, may not be the case five years from now, three years from now, even two years from now, given the changes in funding, the changes in demand, the changes in technology in the deliv ery of heal th.

I wonder if that is why there is some hesitancy by the larger provinces of Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia for complying immedi ately with The Canada Health Act. I am wondering if they are seeing that the ban on extra billing will not benefit their patients in their provinces, and that possibly they perceive that the loss of extra billing will degrade the pursuit of excellence amongst their medical profes sion within their provinces and they find that to be a suffic ient outcome of the ban on extra billing that they are not proceed ing imme diately with it.

Bear in mind that we do have another year-and-a­ half to two years to comply with the extra billing ban and still be within the federal act and lose only interest on the monies that are withheld. 2001

Wedneaday, 15 May, 1• So, Mr.

Speaker, when we get into the committee stage over the next several weeks, presumably, on Bill No. 2, 1 hope the Minis ter might be able to provide some of the answers to the questions I have posed today and provide a little further idea and concept of where he believes this legislation will take the medical profess ion and the deli very of health care in the province, not only over this year but over the next number of years; and how this legislation is viewed by the Min ister and this government to be part of the new challenges that must be met in the delivery of health care; and how this legislation will be to the benefit in the long run of the consuming public of health care in the Province of Manitoba.

When we get to the committee stage, I am sure the Min ister will want to discuss that at greater length. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, that debate be adjourned. MOTION preaented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minis ter of Labour, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve Itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION preaented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Ye s, Mr. Speak er, I would ask for leave for the committee to sit through till 5:30 p.m. and dispense with Private Memb ers' Hour today. MR.

SPEAKER: Is there leave to dispense with Private Memb ers' Hour today? (Agreed) QUE STION put, MOTION carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Sup ply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health; and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Depar tment of Northern Affairs. CONCURRENT COMMI TTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: The Committee will please come to order.

We are considering Item No. 3.(a)( 1) Agreements Management and Co-ordination, Northern Development Agreement - Provincial: Salaries and Wages; 3.(a)

(2) Other Expen ditures; 3.(a)

(3) Payments to Other Implementing Jurisdictions - the Mem ber for Swan River. MR. D. GOUR LAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thought I'd like to go over the various programs which make up the Canada-Manitoba Subsid iary Agreement on Northern De velopment to just sort of get an update on what's happening. Programs 1, 2 and 3 I notice are - all except Program 1 Is some Manitoba dollars; No. 2 is 100 percent fed eral and the same with 3. The DAlE office in Thompson, which is cost shared, is that office now complete and fully staffed and functioning at capacity? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minis ter. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Yes, the Thompson office is fully staffed and functioning at capacity level. MR. D. GOURLAY: How many staff are located in that office? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That Thompson office is 100 percent federally funded, and although Deputy Ministers do have meetings, and so do staff, we have very little direct contact with them to know the number of staff they would have. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Chairman, I notice Manitoba was involved in the construction of this building, Is that right? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Pardon me. MR. D. GOURLAY: The province Is involved in the cost of the construction of the building? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: No, Manitoba had no involvement in the construction of that building. MR. D. GOURLAY: So what was the total cost? Do you have that Information, even though it was . . . ? HON. H. HARAPIAK: No, that's a federal government program and we had no involvement whatsoever In the construction of the program, so we have no idea what the costs were. MR. D. GOURLAY: Wel l, Is that Information not part of the agreement, even though some are 100 percent federal and others are 100 percent provincial; isn't that information available to either party? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: The construction of the building was not part of the Northern Deve lopment Agreement. There are various other Manitoba divisions that are housed in that building. lt wasn't a part of the Northern Devel opment Agreement, it was just a part of the federal government providing facilities for their departments. MR. D. GOURLAY: Then Program 1, the programs that are delivered under that program from that office are cost shared, are they? 2002

Wedneedar, 15 May, 1885 HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, it is a cost-shared program, but the delivery Is by the federal people, the same as Program 13 is a cost-shared program but we do delivery in that, we don't charge them for the delivery of that program. So that's sort of a reciprocal agreement that we've got, that they do the delivery of Program 1 and we do delivery of Program 13; we don't charge each other for that service. MR. D. GOURLAY: The information that I have that under Program 1, the total cost is $2.5 million, of which the province puts up $1 million. Is this Incorrect information? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Your information is correct, that is the correct split, but that doesn't include the wages of the staff, they are not included In that funding. Those figures are for project costs that you're using. MR. D. GOURLA Y: What activities, then, are undertaken under this program by the federal staff? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: In Programs 1, 2 and 3, they provide financial assistance to aid eligible northern groups and organizations In developing projects, to identi fication and devel opment of proposals, that's Program 1; and assistance for the development of resource opportunities under Program 2; and the implementation of special development measures, and that's delivered In the northeast part of the province, and that is under program 3.

These three programs are delivered by the federal Department of Industrial Expansion - DAlE, which is the short form - and Program 1 Is cost-shared 60-40, while Programs 2 and 3 are 100 percent funded by DAlE. And all projects under both programs are reviewed and recommended by the Program Advisory Committee prior to any financial allocations being made. The Prog ram Advisory Committee consists of representatives from the federal and provincial governments, as well as all the Native organizations that are in northern Manitoba to be sure that the northern Natives are having representa tion. MR. D.

GOURLAY: Program 4 shows $25 million, 100 percent provincial funding, entitled Resource Dev elopment. I guess this Is where many of the northern residents are concerned about the lack of visible action. 1 wonder if the Mini ster could just bring us up-to-date. What has happened In Program 4 since its inception? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Before I get into Program 4, I have been informed that there are 17 staff members in the federal office In Thompson.

Program 4 is delivered by the Department of Natural Resources, so we have no Input Into the del ivery, but they are Involved in wild rice dev elopment. lt involves extensive work covering information of wild rice in the seeding and propagation and harvesting and lake dev elopment of the wild rice, and also the administration of wild rice licensing, and also doing some testing in the area of the quality of seed for the wild rice program. Also In that area Is forest renew al.

They are involved In promotion of renewal of forest land use, and also in produc tion of seed ling s, site preparat ion for scarification, also cone collection and proces sing, and tree Improvement and forest genetic activities. They're also involved in the co-ordination of devel opment of a five-year silvicultural program; also they're Involved in the implementation of that program. They're also involved In the wildlife management projects, as well as fire management.

That's to provide for the local governments of fire suppression crews - no, it's not for local govern ments - it's fire suppression crews in critical sites throughout Northern Manitoba involved with resource protection. They are also Involved with park dev elopment and, therefore, providing for the construction and an upgrading of park facilities which will help create local employment and also improve the tourist ind ustry throughout Northern Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerso n. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr.

Chairman, I would just like to ask the Minis ter whether he could elaborate on the wild rice program to some degree. I raised this under the Department of Natural Resources, and we covered it to some degree. I wonder if he could just elaborate, like under the Northern program, specifically what is happening in that. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: To begin with, I would like to Inform the member that the wild rice program is del ivered by the Department of Natural Resources, so I don't have any direct involvement, although there Is a large part of my constituency of The Pas and also large parts of the Depart ment of Northern Affairs that are involved in wild rice harvesting. Does that come under Northern Affairs? There is also a group in The Pas which are involved with setting up a processing centre which I had an oppor tun ity, along with the Mi nister of Co-op Dev elopment, to go and have a first-hand look over what they had set up there.

They had a small processing machine which was very efficient, although it didn't have much capacity for processi ng, but they are looking at expanding it. But the Depart ment of Natural Resources is involved in extension work which gives more Information for wild rice seeding and also helping people become involved in how they can make better use of the wild rice industry because I think quite often when you talk about agriculture in the North, I think they look at the traditional means of agriculture.

But I think the potential for expanding In the wild rice industry is much greater in that part of the province than the land that is arable, so there would be more concentra tion on the wild rice Industry then I think that there is quite a bright future for it in The Pas. MR. A. DRIEDGER: We ll, I most cer tainly agree, Mr. Chairman, with the Mi nister's comments about the potential for the wild rice. I think we have really not tapped it the way we can, I believe.

What I would like to find out, because we covered it to some degree under Natural Resources, how Is the liaison working with this department and Natural Resources in that aspect of wild rice? The same thing would apply, let's say for example, in reforestat ion. I am just trying to es tablish in my mind exact ly how is 2003

W8dn ... y, 15 May, 1985 this liaison between the two departments, or three departments, how does this work? Can you outline that a little bit? Do you have people who are working directly with the Department of Natural Resources on these projects? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, we have given some funding for a secret arial committee to develop and implement a five-year development plan in wild rice in the lnterlake and the east shore area of Lake Winnipeg. We have nobody under our department that is involved with the planting or the harvest ing of wild rice.

That is an area that is being delivered by the Depart ment of Natural Resources. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Wel l, maybe I missed it then. Actual ly, what is the involvement then of the Department of Northern Affairs in this? Because some of the monies, when we went through the Depart ment of Natural Resources, it was certain areas where it relates to the Northern Dev elopment Agreements. I am just trying to establish this in my own mind, Mr. Chairman, how the liaison works in that. I am not quite clear. HON. H. HAAAPIAK: In the funding, 40 percent would be coming from the Province of Manitoba.

So I guess that's the only direct input we have into any of the studies or any of the work that is going on. We have just participated in the one study, but I know there are some people who are looking at possibly making a pres entation to the NDA for funding to participate to a greater degree, but they are just looking at making the application yet, and that has not come forward. MR. A.

DAIEDGER: Well, the funding that comes through under the Northern Dev elopment Agreement - correct me if I don't grab this right - but the Department of Natural Resources actually administrates some of these programs like the tree planting and the wild rice program, and your department is involved only in terms of getting the fe dera l-provincial funding, or am I picking that up wrong? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: No, those programs that I just read to you on the Department of Natural Resources are 100 percent provincial funding.

That was the wild rice, the forest renewal , the wildlife management and fire management and park dev elopment. Those are all 100 percent provincial funding in the Department of Natural Resources. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: The wild rice production in The Pas area, the Minis ter ind icated there was a co-op processing to process and market the wild rice. HON. H.

HAAAPIAK: There are a few individu als who got together and built a processing plant. lt was under a very small scale, just an experimental model, but I believe they were looking at establishing a co-op and encouraging all the producers around the area to become involved in it and maybe expand the model that has been created there. lt had been manufactured in The Pas area. MR. D. GOURLAY: Does the Mini ster have any idea, Mr. Chairman, how many producers and what kind of annual production would come out of that area? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Min ister of Co-operative Dev elopment. HON. J.

COW AN: The discussions were ongoing some time ago and, as the Mini ster for Northern Affairs indicated, we both had the opportunity to visit with the leadership in this area awhile back. What we can do is, when the Department of Co-op Development Estimates come up tomorrow, have that information available to you as to what progress has taken place since that time and the type of detail which you require. lt would actually be something that would fall under the pu rview of the Department of Co-operative Dev elopment more so than Northern Affairs. So we'll be glad to get that information for you. MR. D.

GOURLAY: I thank the Min ister for that. I do believe that there is a lot more potential for wild rice and certainly believe that we could market more than we're presently doing. I guess it takes considerable amount of expertise to get a good harvest, as I understand it. Now, in the agricultural end of it, for the 4-H Program, is it funded through this or is that separate in the Department of Agriculture? HON. H.

HAAAPIAK: it's 100 percent funded by the Department of Agriculture and deli vered by the Department of Agricultur e as well, except for the 4-H which is 80 percent provincial funding and 20 percent federal funding. MR. D. GOURLAY: Under this program, it mentions ". . . development activities relat ing to northern resources such as forest ry, fisheries, wildlife and agriculture." Is 4-H a part of this agricultur al component? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: The 4-H Program is under the Youth Development. All we are is a co-ordinating department for all of these different groups.

We don't have any direct delivery, I don't believe, on any of these, becaus e they're either unde r the Department of Agriculture or Department of Natural Resources. All we are is a delivery program, but the 4-H's is a 60 percent federal-40 percent provincial cost-sharing part of the program. The permanent staff are not cost­ shareable, but the program is cost-sharea ble. MA. D. GOURLAY: I don't necessarily want to get into the specifics of agriculture but the types of activity in the field of agriculture that's funded by this program in general terms.

Does it involve market gardens in a lot of the northern communities? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, they're involved with the promotion of agricultural crop production and they'r e involved with land clearing and land breaking as they were in Cormorant, Wabowden and Cross Lake, and they are also examining the potential for commercial agriculture in the North. I guess the three main areas 2004

are in co-operative vegetable garden demonstrations. There are 10 locations which are In existence now; there Is also the youth gardening which is In 13 different locations, and they are also involved with tunn el gardening. There is also forage seed production trials which are located In the Wabowden area, and there is also some vegetable and potato variety testing going on In that area as well. There Is also, I believe, about a 10-acre plot of garden going Into Cross Lake this year and he's going into it on a commercial basis, so there has been some assistance from the Department of Agriculture In that area.

The Department of Agriculture has also assisted the community of Cormorant In the preparation and the testing of their soils to see that they had used the proper fertilizer and they provided some of the equi pment which is necessary to prepare the seed bed for them. I'm told that the seeding will be taking place this year In Cormorant as well as Cross lake. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Emerson. MA. A. DAIEDGEA: Ye s, I wonder If we could pu rsue that Cormorant area devel opment a little further. How much land Is actually involved at the present time unde r the ... HON. H.

HAAAPIAK: They have cleared 66 acres at this time and, when I was there the last time, half of it was prepared for seeding of this year, and they were going to be assigning all the garden plots. They had them all assigned when I was there. The balance of the acreage, they were going to put it into forage because they are eventually hoping to establish a few head of livestock in the community so they were trying to establish a bit of forage In the area. MA. A. DAIEDGEA: In the Cormorant area, is that where the Tom Lamb Wildlife Management area is In as well? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: No, that Is a different area.

The Tom Lamb Wildlife Management area Is when you're going into Moose Lake; it's to the right of Moose Lake, in that area, is where the Tom Lamb area was. MA. A. DAIEDGEA: Just on that Cormorant area back there again, can the Mini ster indicate - there's been all kinds of concerns expressed I guess over a period of time by people regarding the level of the water in the Cormorant Lake area there. Will this be aff ecting the agricultural development to any degree, or does it basically just affect some of the cottage owners around there? HON. H.

HAAAPIAK: I am led to believe that Cormorant was at one time a thriving agricultural community and I guess they've been bothered by high water level througho ut the time that they were conduc ting agricultural practices In the area. But for the last couple of years, they've had high water levels and I'm not sure if there was a high rainfall In the area and also there is only one outlet. There are several rivers that are coming into the Cormorant Lake but there's only one way for the water to get out, so when there Is a lot of snowfall and rainfall, then there is only one way it can go.

But this spring, we were in there the other day and the water levels are down. So it just depends on how much moisture mother nature puts down in the community. MA. A. DAIEDGEA: We ll, pardon my Ignorance, Mr. Chairman, but some of the corre spondence that I have received from that area, some of the people Ind icate that the problems are man-made to some degree. The level of the lake could very easily be controlled, would there be any merit to that? If the Min ister has been there, he's probably had first-hand look at it and probably has more Information on it that he can maybe impart to us. HON. H.

HAAAPIAK: There have been several studies conducted to find out how much the area has been affected by the level of water, or the backing up of the Cedar Lake Into the area, If that's affect ed. We are in the process right now of gathering all the information to see if there Is any merit to the request that Is coming from the community that we install a pump into the area so we can pump it out and control the water to a greater degree. We still haven't come to a conclusion to see if it is worth the expense to put the pump in. MA. A.

DAIEDGEA: Has the Mi nister anticipated that he will be coming forward with that reco mmendation or report on that area shortly? What is the time frame that he's looking at In terms of . . . HON. H. HAAAPIAK: There has been a request for some further study and once we've got the information gathered that we have within all the departments, then we're going to be having a meet ing with Ducks Unlimited who have shown an inter est In participating In the area, also the Department of Natural Resources and the Department of Northern Affairs and all the people involved.

We'll also involve the community members, the Cormorant Agricultural Society who have a great interest In expanding an agricultural base in the area. We will have a meeting with all people concerned and see what we can do with the water level . MA. A. DAIEDGEA: Just a further question, who Is unde rtaking this study? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: The Department of Northern Affairs is gathering all the Information that exists from all the different departments. MA. CHAIRM AN: The Member for Swan River. MA. D.

GOUALAY: Did the Min ister say when the information would be all ready and this meeting would be held to discuss the situation with local people? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: Once we get all the information gathered, we would be having a meeting, but we don't have all the information together at this point. MA. D. GOUALAY: At least one meeting or perhaps more have been held have they not to discuss this situation? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: 'res, there have been two meetings that have been held that I'm aware of, to discuss the 2005

Wednnd ay, 15 May , 1985 water levels. Last year was an except ional year where areas that were flooded that had not had water on them for several years. The water was much higher last year than it had been many years before and this year the water level is down again. But last year, the water level was very high. MR. D. GOURLAY: The meetings that have been held have involved the various disciplines, including, you know, the Depa rtment of Resources, Northern Affairs, Ducks Unlimited and perhaps others? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: At the meetings that I'm aware of, the Mini ster of Natural Resources was present and the Mini ster of Northern Affairs, the previous Min ister, and also repre sentation from Manitoba Hydro and Ducks Unlimi ted ; the y were all present at those meetings. MR. D. GOURLAY: Is it the main problem that a pump would have to be Installed to regulate the amount of water in that area to make it possible to carry out ranching or muskrat farming or what have you? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I guess that hasn't been determined at this time yet, but I guess it is the matter of the water level being inconsistent and I'm not sure if it's because of the outlet being so small or what it is. But it seems that even for the production of wild rice, the fluctuation is such that it wouldn't be very conducive at this time, to go into the wild -rice production because the water levels fluctuate too much from year to year. So it wouldn't be fea sible to put the wild rice in at this time. We have to determine what is the cause of that fluctuating water lev el. MR. D.

GOURLAY: Are there any commercial fishermen or fishing operat ions in that area that have to be taken into consideratio n? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, the re are two commercial fishermen in the area. lt would also affect the Moose Lake fishermen as well, because they now have a permit on South Moose Lake which they didn't have in previous years. So the fishermen from South Moose Lake would also have to be involved in that and that's going to make it fairly tricky negotiations. Because what might be good for the farming community or the wild rice industry, may not be good for the fish production. MR. D.

GOURLAY: Moving on to some of the other programs, the youth development program, I wonder if the Mi nister could Ind icate what types of activity have been carried on under this program? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The two programs under here is the Northern Youth Corps and also the 4-H. The Youth Corps is involved to provide northern students with an opportunity to gain some meaningful experience from community projects during the summer months and this is primarily a labour-Intensive project and In most cases, projects are of a community clean-up nature. Capital funds are raised by the project groups.

Project sponsors include community councils, band councils and local MMF officers and the LGD officers. Projects are approved on the basis of need and the lack of alternative employment opportunities are usually taken into consideration when the decisions are being made. In 1984, a total of 500 workers and supervisors were Involved in 85 projects in northern Manitoba and this program is on a 60-40 cost-sharing basis.

And the 4-H program is to assist young people in acquiring the attitudes, knowledge and skills which will contribute towards the social and economic well-being and the development of Northern Manitoba. The 4-H Program provides lea dership training and development through 4-H Clubs with adult volunteers and leaders. The young people range In age from nine to 19, and each club carries out a variety of project works and leadership development programs. The targets for 1985-86 is going to be in the area of leader ship training workshops throughout the region, a junior member conference.

There is one specific project, I believe, that's a training workshop, a 4-H members' workshop, and there is also going to be some continued work with leadership associati on. There is going to be an effort made to incr ease the communications between all the existing 4-H members within Northern Manitoba. This program is also 60-40 cost-shared between the Federal and Provincial Governments. MR. D. GOURLAY: Perhaps we can move on to Program 14. I think we covered Program 12 and 13 yesterday to some degree.

Program 14, the Remote Airstrips, I understand that there is an airstrip being worked on in the Tadoule Lake area. I wonder If the Minister could indicate just how many airstrips are being worked on, and what stages they are at. HON. H. HARAPIAK: The only project we are working on right now is the Tadoule Lake airstrip. lt Is going to tender this summer. All the prelimi nary work has been done, and we feel that it would be going to tender this summer . The Department of Highw ays and Transportation is in charge of the tender .

The equipment will have to be moved In this winter, because it can only be moved in by the winter roads. Then the construction will take place next year. We have already done the clearing and the grubbing of the airstrip through a Northern Community Assets Project; and we have already put in $65,000 into the airstrip for the preparatory work. MR. D. GOURLAY: Are there any other communities being looked at for airstrips under this program for future devel opment? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We only have funding for this one project . Once this project's completed, the funding will be all used up.

So we're going to have to see if we can negotiate another agreement and get more funding into the project, because there are several other requests. MR. D. GOURLAY: There are some $3.3 million In this program, is there not? HON. H. HARAPIAK: There was $3.2 million to begin with, but some funds have been used for upgrading 2006

w.dna.dey , 15 M•y, 1985 of existing airstrips. At this time, there Is only $2.2 remaining In the program. MA. D. GOURLAY: Will Tadoule Lake be able to accommodate the air ambulance service for that airstrip? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: Ye s, that's one of the req uirement that were looked at, that it would be made of the specifications and length that would accommodate the air ambulance aircraft. MR. D. GOURLAY: What about the other communities that are listed like Poplar River and God's River, Granville Lake and Wasagamlng? Do they not have airstrips at the present time? Are they being considered for airstrips later on?

Also will they be serviced by the air ambulance when they do have an airstrip? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We just had our meet ing with the Wasagaming people the other day, and they were telling us how Important it Is that they have an airstrip, but at this time they have access to an airstrip which is only six miles away. We kn ow that it's an inconvenience for them to get to it because at this time of the year, when the ice conditions are such that they can't utilize skis and they can't use floats, they have to use a helicopter , and that's extremely expensive.

So 1 can sympathize with the people who are living in those communities and they have to utilize this very expensive mode of transportation. At this time the funding just isn't there, so we are hoping that we can maybe get some more federal funding transferred into the program so maybe we can deliver this. Possibly an alternative Is to maybe build the roads to conne ct the communities where we can make use of one airstrip, rather than building an airstrip in these small communities.

So that's one of the other things we want to look at, as well as maybe one other alternative that we are going to Investig ate is the use of a hovercraft. Apparently there is funding available, and there are some people with a real keen interest in promoting the hovercraft as a mode of transportation. So I think this would be an exciting place to try out an experiment of that sort. The Poplar River area, there is an airstrip at this time, but they would like to move it because it is too close to the community, so they would like to relocate that airstrip.

In Granville Lake, we're still having a look at this airstrip to see if there Is sufficient population in the area to warrant an airstrip or not. We haven't made any decisions on this airstrip at this time. MA. D. GOUR LAY: The Minister indicated that tenders were going to be called soon for the airstrip at Tadoule Lake. Does the Minis ter have the tendering dates as to when tenders will be closed? HON. H. HARAPIAK: They are done by the Department of Highways and Transportation, but I am led to believe that they will be tendered very shortly. I haven't got the dates at this time. MA. D.

GOURLAY: Is it anticipated that the work would be tendered and completed during this year? HON. H. HARAPIAK: No, they can't get the equipment In there. They have to move the equi pment in via winter road. So it would be tendered this year and whatever prepara tory work can be done by local machinery that's in there it can maybe be done by the contractor. We could hire them on whatever basis they could work out. But the majority of the work would be done the following construction year. MR. D. GOUR LAY: The Min ister Ind icated that improvem ents had been undertaken on some of the other strips.

Could he enlighten us as to the kinds of upgrading, and how much money has been spent under this program for Improvements to various airstrips? HON. H. HARAPIAK: To begin with, there was $3.3 million in the program. There has been gravel given to the Shamattawa Airport, which was 49.3. There was also an equipment shop at Shamattawa Airport. lt was built by Neway Construction; that was 83,000; and York Landing Equipment Shop was 60,000; and Poplar River Airways airport su rvey, which was 9.9; and Wasakamak airport survey was 6,000.

There has been $969,800 spent to this time and that leaves 2.30 for the Tadoule Lake airstrip. MR. D. GOURLAY: I understand the air ambulance service has been dela yed until the fall before it commences. Is this right? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That's right. We had expected the delivery of the aircraft to be here in the beginning of June, but the latest figures we have had, there is going to be some difficulty with delivering the aircraft. So it's slated to be here now at the beginning of Septem ber. MR. D. GOU RLAY: Approxim ately how many communities will this air ambulance be able to service? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: We will have to get that Information to you because we do not have that list here, but I am led to believe that there are very few communities it will not be able to get into, but we will give you the list. We will get it from the Department of Health. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder if the Minister could indicate to us the evaluation and consultation program process, particularly the evalua tion. Is that a yearly evaluation that's carried out between the Federal and Provincial Governments and the various departments? Is it any differ ent than it was under the previ ous Northlands Agreement? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Under the prev ious agreement, there was no formal system for evaluat ion, but at this time there is a formal system. The management board has established an evalua ting sub-committee to assist in the eval uation of the program. The ev aluation sub­ committee contracted a consultant to develop a work plan by which the eva luation can be unde rtaken. This work plan was completed In March of'84 and subsequently presented to and approved by the management board, and the plan is currently being 2007

WedMedey , 15 May, 1185 used as a broad guide for ev aluation activities under the Northern De velopment Agreement. The management board has confirmed that the priorities for program ev aluations are Community and Regional Economic Development Planning, Resource Development, Northeast Manitoba De velopment under Program 3, Local Government Dev elopment under Program 5, Northern Manitoba Affirmat ive Action Program under Program 9; and also Public Information under Program 16.

There is also consultation going on with the Agreement Advisory Committee, and it's very esse ntial to get local input into the evaluation as well. That process is going on. MR. D. GOURLAY: From time to time, and quite frequently as well, many of the northern people and people from northern communities - Indian bands and Northern Affairs communities - have been disappointed at the lack of visible economic devel opment projects in spite of the fact that many applications have been submitted. They have gone into the consultation process and they say nothing is coming out.

I wonder if the Minister could indicate to us today what kind of projects have in fact gone through the process and are now being developed where local people will be provided long-term and equal jobs as a result of this exercise. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Program 2 is totally a federal program, although there is representation of the Agreement Advisory Committee which is made up of all the different Native organizations in Northern Mani toba as well as the provincial and federal repres entation.

Some of the programs they have been involved in was in the Ross Island right-of-way, and that was a total commitment, $13 1,000; it's going to construct a right-of-way to timber stands for harvest use, and that was for the community of Norway House. Pimlchikamac - Cross Lake Dev elopment Corporation is a better way of saying it, I guess - there was $372,000 given for that program. I guess there have been 41 programs funded under that program, and there was $4, 271,0 83 committed to this time. There is still a non-committed balance of $7,728,9 17 left in the program.

Again I remind you, that's 100 percent federally funded. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder If the Mini ster can relate In terms of the numbers of long-term jobs that have been created by these 41 projects. HON. H. HARAPIAK: We don't have that information with us at this time; we can get it. There are 41 projects, as I mentioned, and we don't have the number of employees listed on this information. So we can get that information to you. MR. D. GOURLAY: Ye s, I think that would be of interest to us. Also, the Minister mentioned the Cross Lake sawmill area. Is it functioning at the present time, or is it shut down? HON. H.

HAR APIAK: The modernizing and the upgrading has pretty near been comple ted - there is still a bit of wiring to do - but at this time it is shut down. MR. D. GOURLAY: Is that mill still on the same location it was before the renova tions, or is it in a new location? HON. H. HARAPIAK: lt is the same location, about 300 yards to the south of where the old mill was located. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, I think that's all the questions I have. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (a)( 1)- pass; 3. (a)(2)-pass; 3.(a)(3)-p ass. 3.(b)

(1) Agreements Management and Co-ordination: Salaries and Wages; 3.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures; 3.(b)

(3) Northern Flood Agreement - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: I wonder If the Minister could bring us up to date on the Northern Flood Agreement as to the number of claims that have been awarded and how many claims are still outstanding, if he has this information. HON. H. HARAPIAK: There have been 145 claims filed In the arbitrators office and Manitoba is the sole respondent in 59 of the claims, and final se ttlements have been reached in eight of them. Individual claims total 51. MR. D. GOURLAY: Ye s, I can't rec all who has replaced Mr. Ferg as arbitrator.

Could the Minister Indicate who is the arbitrator at this time? H ON. H. HARAPIAK: There was a name put forward during the previous federal administration by the name of Chapman and there was agreement by Manitoba and the bands and Hydro on that name. But once the new government came in they have submitted a new name, and agreement has not been reached yet by all the parties involved on that new pers on. MR. D. GOURLAY: There is a new person been named, but hasn't been approved by the parties. HON. H. HARAPIAK: That is correct . I have written a letter to Mr.

Crombie telling him our position on the name, and we are urging him to get the name and place quickly, so it's in the federal hands at this time. So we don't know how soon that will be In coming forward. MR. D. GOURLAY: How are the claims being dealt with In the interim? How are they being handled and how will they get resolved, or do they? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Because of lack of an arbitrator the parties have been working in a more co-operative way and some of the claims have been sett led.

Even though there has been no arbitrator In place, they have come to agreements in many incidents and they have reached sett lements on their own. MR. D. GOURLAY: How many new claims have been filed since last ye ar? 2008

HON. H. HAAAPIAK: There have been no new claims since last year. MA. D. GOUALAY: So all the existing claims have been on file for a year or more then? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, since the arbitrator was first appointed. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b) (1) -pass; 3.(b) (2 )- pass; 3.(b)(3)- pass. 3.(c)( 1) Canada-Manitoba Special ARDA Agreement: Salaries and Wages; 3.(c)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Swan River . MR. D. GOURLAY: I noticed the salaries are reduced quite a bit - 25 percent reduction or thereabouts. HON. H. HARAPIAK: We have transferred the one analysis from Special ARDA over to research and also his expenses would also have been transferred as well. That's what amounts for that total, and the reason for that Is that we have changed the emphasis of Special ARDA to be dealing with groups, rather than individuals, and it is felt the analysts would be of more use to the department In the area of research and planning, rather than in Special ARDA. MR. D.

GOURLAY: We ll, in the case of Special ARDA for trappers and fishermen, is this being handled by the local trappers' association? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, there has been a greater participation from the associat ions. They are participating to a great degree in helping us. As a matter of fact, they helped develop a new policy which led us to go to funding groups and associations rather than individuals.

There has also been a lot of co-operat ion from the Manitoba Registered Trappers Association who have a full-time person on staff right now who has really helped pull together the Special ARDA people, the trappers association and the fishermen. He has really have been very helpful in selling the new Special ARDA Program. MR. D. GOURLAY: I think it's called the Manitoba Outfitters and Lodgers, or Campers Association, are they involved with this program? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: No, they are not involved. The Manitoba Registered Trappers Association Is involved but not the campers and outfitters. MR. D.

GOUALA Y: However, people inv olved in outfitting projec ts, would they be eligible for funding under this program? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: They get assistance through the Northern Development Agreement but not under the Special ARDA Program. They get assistance under Program 1. MA. D. GOUALAY: As I understand Special ARDA, it's sort of in two components, one administered by the federal department and one by the province, and the federal deal more with the economic dev elopment projects? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: The federal deal with the commercial end of lt, and we participate in the primary producer end. MA. D.

GOUALAY: So there is no involvement by the province In approving or reject ing applications that would involve economic development projects, whether they be service stations or different types of businesses. HON. H. HAAAPIAK: They all go to committee, which we have an opportunity to review before they are approved or re jected. MA. D. GOUALAY: The exploratory work on these projects is all carried out by fede ral? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: Yes , the Federal Special ARDA would be involved with the commercial end of it and we would be Involved in the primary producer end.

I am told by staff that there Is good consultation bet ween the feds and the province when it affects other departments. MR. D. GOUALAY: So an application comes forward to the committees Involving an economic devel opment project, provincial representation would have a chance to express their opinions on the project ? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: The appropriate department would have an opportunity to review it, then our provincial representatives who sit on that committee would also have an opportunity to represent it before it is approved. MR. D. GOUALAY: Or reject ed. HON. H. HAAAPIAK: Or reject ed. MA. D.

GOUALAY: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)(1) - pass; 3.(c)(2)-pass. Resolution No. 132: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,965,900 for Northern Affairs, Agreements Management and Co­ ordination, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1986- pass. Item No. 4.(

a) Corporate Projects, Salaries and Wages, 4.(

b) Other Expenditures - the Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGEA: Thank you. My question to the Min ister is the logging operat ion at Moose Lake, they send their product down to The Pas. What is the impact of the problems at the Manfor plant? Is it having any impact on the Moose Lake operat ion? HON. H. HAAAPIAK: Most of the operators that are supplying wood to the Manfor operation have been reduced by 20 perce nt. Moose Lake Loggers has also been reduced by 20 perc ent. MR. A. DRIEDGER: This 20 percent reduction, Is that because of lack of resource or because of the lack of functioning at the plant? 2009

w.cme.cter. 15 MaJ, 1885 HON. H. HARAPIAK: The woodcutting continued on when the modernization was going on at Manfor, so the sawmill was not operating. Now Manfor is also having marketing problems with the pulp and paper. There is going to be a shutdown, so they will be having too great of a stockpile. That's why they found it necessary to reduce their cut by 20 percent . MR. A. DRIEDGER: Is the Mi nister telling us that the plant is actually functioning properly now and that the layoffs are only because of a backlog of supply? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The plant is not functioning properly at this time.

In the lum bering division, they are having some difficulty with computer equipment that was brought in. lt may be corrected by this time, but the last I heard it had not been corrected and they were still contemplating a shutdown until they got their computers working proper ly. They were operating manually, so they were only operating to about 20 percent of the capacity. They were not operating in an efficient manne r, so that's why they found it necessary to shut down. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Can the Minister give any indication of how long this shutdown will be in effect? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: lt was supposed to be for a three­ week period, but then I haven't heard any later figures to see if it was going to be for a longer period or a shorter period. I should add that there was a normal shutdown for three weeks as well, which is a normal shutdown for the summer months. That was going to be in addition to the normal shutdown. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Can the Mi nister maybe outline a little more specifically exactly what's going to happen this summer? Are there more major layoffs contemplated for this coming summer? If so, for what period of time?

Because it could have a dramatic Impact on the functionings of Moose Lake Loggers as well as everybody in the Manfor area. HON. H. HARAPIAK: I think those specific questions should be put to the Minister responsible for Manfor, the Minister of Business De velopment and Tourism. But I know that in the Mo ose Lake area, they are contemplating a shutdown from mid-June until the early part of September because of the production that they have on right now. That's how long a shutdown they're going to be faced with. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: The middle of June until September is, I would think, a dramatically long time, and the financial impact on the operators must be substantial. Are there any alternative plans that can be looked at or employment packages that can be looked at? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, there is a reforest ation program that will be carried out in that area, and employees have the option of becoming a part of that reforestation program if they so choose. Some employees have chosen to become a part of it, and some employees have chosen to take a layoff. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: That refores tation, would that be handled by the Department of Natural Resources or, Moose Lake Loggers, would that be under the jurisdiction of this Mi nister, you know, the program itself? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The reforest ation program is carried out in co-operation between the Department of Natural Resources and Manitoba Forestry. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: The Min ister Indicated that the mill at Manfor would be shut down for approximately three weeks to correct the computer foul-up plus the normal three-week shutdown. Do I understand the Minister correctly? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: That's what I have been led to believe. MR. D. GOURLA Y: So that there would be approximately a total shutdown of six weeks. HON. H. HARAPIAK: That's correct. MR. D. GOURLAY: The mill has been shut down for how long now? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I don't believe it Is shut down at this time. They were · still operating the last I heard. MR. D. GOURLAY: They're operating manually at about 20 percent? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I can get that information for you. I don't think that they are shut down at this time. MR. D.

GOURLA Y: I noticed that, under Other Expenditures, there's a considerable increase, 175,000 as compared to 124,000 last year. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Twenty-five thousand of it was allocated to assist deve lopment of a new small logging operation which was in Grand Rapids and Sherridon. The balance of that is uSed for the losses at Channel Area Loggers at Berens River. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)-pa ss; 4.(b)- pass. Resolution No. 133: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $242,500 for Northern Affairs, Corporate Projects, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1986-p ass. Item No. 5.

Northern Devel opment Agreement - Canada-Manitoba. But before we go to this item, the Minister wants to give some information. HON. H. HARAPIAK: There were some questions asked on the air ambula nce service and I've got the information now. The Citation can land on 36 strips throughout the whole province. Of these, 25 of these are in the North. Of these 25, 17 are okay under all conditions. There are no restrictions on them. Eight would depend on the conditions of the airstrip at that 2010

WedneedeJ, 15 MaJ, 1985 time. 1t might be too soft or too wet or whatever, but eight are subject to conditions. Swan River is one of the airstrips that is suitable for landing under any conditions. MR. D. GOURLAY: lt will be when the upgrading is completed. I understand the claim cannot . . . HON. H. HARAPIAK: No, the air ambula nce can land in Swan River right now. MR. D. GOURLAY: Oh, it does? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item No. 5. Northern Development Agreement - Canada-Manitoba - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Can the Mini ster just give us a brief explanation of this vote? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: 19.5 is the ongoing provincially del ivered cost-sharing program. Under these, there are some which are 100 percent provincial, others are 100 percent federal, and the total of all those put together is 22,693,900 and that takes in Agriculture, Education, Highways and Transportion, Emp loyment Services and Economic Securi ty, as well as Natural Resources, and the only ones that we are involved in delivering dir ectly is local government services, municip al support services and agreements management portion of the program. MR. D.

GOURLAY: So the vote we're reviewing right now is the money that's involv ed strictly by the Department of Northern Affairs? HON. H. HARAPIAK: No, it includ es all the departments, the Department of Educat ion, the Department of Agriculture, under Education is BUNTEP and the ACCESS Program. Under Hig hways and Transportation, there is the airport development and internal roads for Norway House. Under the Department of Agriculture, it's Northern Agriculture, so it's a compilation of all that money is under this Enabling Vote.

In the other departments, for instance, the Department of Natural Resources, when they would have covered this portion of it, it would have shown up as a blank. There would be no funding for it, the same as in the Department of Highways. When it comes to the area of airport development, they would have been blank in that area. So, all of this comes in under the Department of Northern Affairs, even though we are already involved in the delivery of the programs that we have already covered . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: I wonder, just for clarification here, I'm a little confused here.

On the next item, there is capital involved in this item here as well. We're talking about Item No. 5, is capital involved in there, and what is the breakdown between Item 5 and Item 6? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The programs on No. 5 are ongoing programs and the capital projects are in Item No. 6, except for the ones that go into Highways and Transportation and also construction and acquisition, capital projects. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Well, that's where I get a little confused, because I thought I understood the Mini ster to ind icate that Highways came through this Item 5 and as well as Natural Resources indication, airports. HON. H. HARAPIAK: On No. 5 is the cost-shared programs other than capital, and any capital projects are in No. 6. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Well, it takes a little longer with me, Mr. Chairman, so have a little patience.

What was the Minister referring to then in Item No. 5 when he talked about Highways, because that would be capital, would it not, and here he's telling me that highways are not included, and for example the airport HON. H. HARAPIAK: The Minister was mistaken. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Then how about the airport aspect of it? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The airport development and maintenance is under capital as well. MR. A. DRIEDGER: That's Item 6 then? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That's right. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Okay, can we try again then, M;.' Chairman. What is under 5. then, because I think we started off on the wrong foot?

Maybe if you can clarify that, it's going to make it a lot easier. HON. H. HARAPIAK: The cost-shared programs other than capital, so that would include, under Agriculture is 4H; under Education it is BUNTEP and ACCESS; under Employment Services and Economic Security it is New Careers, Emp loyment Services and Northern Youth Core; and under Northern Affairs is Fire Training and Co-ordination. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Natural Resources? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That's 100 percent provincially funded, so that wouldn't be under that area. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.- pass.

Resolution 134: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $9,323, 800 for Northern Affairs, Northern Development Agreement - Canada-Manitoba for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1986- pass. Item No. 6- 6.(a)( 1) Expenditur es Related to Capital; Acquisition/Construction of Phyical Assets - Northern Development Agreement - Canada-Manitoba, Northern Affairs; 6.(a)

(2) Other Departments (Recoverable from Canada) - the Member for Emerson. 2011

Wednesday, 15 May, 1985 MR. A. DRIEDGER: Ye s, I wonder if the Mi nister could maybe give us a breakdown. I think in his opening remarks he indicated various capital projects. Could we have a bit of a breakdown as to exactly what is Involved in this? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Under the 1985-86 request for a fire program, there is 11 4.5; and under roads, there is 11 2.5; and for subdivision development, there is 575.8; for water and sewer there is 2, 756,00; for public works there is 41 2.2; and for waste disposal, there is 78.5, for a total of 4,049,500. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: In most cases, under Highways and other programs, when it comes to capital they have a list that they can supply of the various projects. I wonder if the Mi nister has a list of the various projects that come under this category . HON. H. HARAPIAK: We have got the list at this time, but the department is still in the process of priorizing which programs will be priorized before going to the department of - so many are to the Dep artment of Highways. They have estimated costs on them, and I guess we are going to be going to the tendering process so we would not want to make this Information public. MR.

A. DRIEDGER: I can appreciate that end of it and I don't want to know the costs. I want to know the specific projects. For example, when the Mini ster of Highways presents his road program, he doesn't put any costs there. He just indicates which roads are going to be under consideration. That is basically what I'm asking. I'm not asking for the costing factor nec ess arily, but which programs are designated. Does the Minister have difficulty with that? HON. H. HARAPIAK: We can give you a list of the projects we have here now, as long as you know they'r e not public knowledge at this time. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Like I ind icated before, I am not concerned about the money end of it. If that Is a problem, you can delete that, but just so we could see which are the projects where this money is intended to be spent. HON. H. HARAPIAK: lt's a fairly lengthy list. I can provide it to you at the end of the day if you would prefer to do it that way, because there are about 20 sheets here of projects. So I'm not sure if you would want me to read them all to you or how you would prefer to handle it. I can give you a list at the end of the day. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: I have no difficulty with that as long as we get a list somewhere along the line, and you can delete the figures, I don't care, as long as we know which projects are on there. Basically, in a sense, we're dealing with the Estimates here of the amount of monie s that would be expended, and we'd like to know which projects it's going to be expended on. HON. H. HARAPIAK: We can provide you a list with the figures deleted. If that would satisfy you, that's what we'll do. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: See, the only difficulty I have looking at it this way is that we don't really know which projects the Minister has on there and which he doesn't. So we can't really give him a hard time, asking why doesn't he have this one on there or this one not on there. lt puts us at a little bit of a disadvantage. We could start maybe picking up individual situations throughout the North where we say, is this included on there? We're not going to be difficult about it but I think maybe the Minister understands what I'm trying to say. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I'm sure that in your travels through the North that one of the groups that you would stop and consult with Is the community councils. This list has been developed with consultation with the community councils. So If the community councils that you have been in contact with have some pet projects that they would like to see included, they are probably on there. You'll see when we give you the list that they are probably included in the list. MR. A. DRIEDGER: That's fine then.

If the Mini ster gives us the undertaking that he'll supply us with a list of those because for all the possibili ties that are there, we might be having to administrate that program after a little while. So it's Important that we maybe get to know where we stand on this situation. MR. CHAIRMAN: Fair. enough, fair enough. HON. H. HARAPIAK: We all operate in hope. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: I would appreciate getting a copy of the Capital projects. Did I understand the Mini ster has a list of those that are approved and are to be undertaken this year? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: lt Is the entire list of projects that have made the list this year, but we have not priorized to this point. We still have to prlorlze it. MR. D. GOURLAY: When does this take place? In the case of the Mi nister of Highways, he brings in the list that they've decided to proceed with in the current year. Why can't the Min ister tell us now - we're Into Estimates - as to the kinds of capital projects that are approved for this year and will be proceeded with in this year? HON. H. HARAPIAK: All the projects that are on the recommended list are on there right now.

They are all there, but the figures are included. So we'll give you a list of all the projects that have made the list this year, the projects we will be proceeding with - very shortly, we'll have the list for you. MR. D. GOURLAY: I would like to ask the Mini ster, I brought this up in question period about the Salt Point Tourist Lodge road. This has been under discussion. Apparently , the Mini ster of Highways has been Involved with the individual from Waterhen that's interested In getting this road in. I understand that he purchased 2012

w.dnesdaJ, 15 Mar, 1185 the lodge with the understan ding that he would be getting a road. I find it strange that the Minister of Highways appears to be in favour of this, and recommended to the owner of Salt Point Lodge that he go to see Mr. Morrisseau, the Deputy Mi nister of Northern Affairs, which he did. The owner says that he was told by the Deputy Min ister that the final decision has to come from the members of the opposition. What kind of information Is the Deputy Mi nister providing to people from the various communities? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I don't think that our Deputy Mi nister would have given out Information like that. He Is aware of the decisions of the government, and we will not be abdicating that respo nsibil ity. We will be making those decisions, but that road is not built under the Capital projects process. it would be built under the Roads to Resources, which is a different program again. MR. D. GOURLAY: What does that come under in your Estimates? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That program is budgeted under the Department of Highways.

All the Department of Northern Affairs does is priorize the programs that we see as a priority to us as a depar tment. MR. D. GOURLAY: The decision Is made by the Department of Northern Affairs, and carried out by the Department of Highways? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That's correct . MR. D. GOURLAY: So when will the decision be made? We 're Into the tourist sea son now. lt doesn't look like it's going to be any good for the Salt Point Tourist Lodge for 1985. HON. H. HARAPIAK: No, it definitely will not be in for the 1985 tourist seaso n. MR. D. GOURLAY: Why wasn't Mr.

Chartrand given that information, rather than the runaround that he got? HON. H. HARAPIAK: I'm led to believe that he was given that information. MR. D. GOURLAY: When was he given this information, and by whom? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The meeting was held in the Deputy Min ister of Northern Affairs office, and there were four other people present at the meet ing. MR. D. GOURLAY: When was this? HON. H. HARAPIAK: In March. MR. D. GOURLAY: March 1st? HON. H. HARAPIAK: He hasn't got his calendar with him, so he would have to check that out. MR. D.

GOURLAY: We ll, if the Mini ster is asking the opposition for approval of this, he certainly has it, and I put it on the record that we will probably end up building it If it's not happening in 1985. I would then go on to another question about the South Indian Lake situation and the houses. From time to time, there has been a fair amount of publicity about the state of condition of many of the houses In South Indian Lake. Can the Minister bring us up-to-date on the upgrading of those homes this year? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: The Department of Northern Affairs has put $129, 000 Into the upgrading of those homes, and the majority of the work has been carried out. There is still some work being carried on at this time, but we are led to believe that they are very near completion. MR. D. GOURLAY: Who is carrying out the work on these homes in South Indian Lake? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The Manitoba Housing and Renewal. MR. D. GOURLAY: How many homes are Involved? HON. H. HARAPIAK: lt's approximately 59 homes, but I would have to check that figure, but I think it's in that vicinity. MR. D.

GOURLAY: I unde rstand that the ferry from Cross Lake has been moved to South Indian Lake. Is that work completed on the ferry and is it ready to function? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Appa rently, it's going to be flowing down the Rat River on June 3rd to get to South Indian Lake. MR. D. GOURLAY: What was the estimated cost of this project and what is the actual cost? HON. H. HARAPIAK: The department had budgeted $400,000 and the tender came in at $385,000.00. MR. D. GOURLAY: The budget was $400,000 and the estimate . HON. H. HARAPIAK: The tender came In at $385,000.00. MR. D. GOURLAY: $385,000.00. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s.

MR. D. GOURLAY: And the work has been basically completed now? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, it is supposed to be going down the river on June 3rd. MR. D. GOURLAY: As soon as the ice Is . HON. H. HARAPIAK: That's right. 2013

WldnMd•r. 15 ... ,. 1185 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Chairman, now that we have the list here of the projects, I just want to raise a few more questions. The first thing I would like to have clarified, up on top here it says, "Recommended Capital Projects for 1985-86," and then it lists the communities and the projects. Are these all the projects that will be undertaken? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Ye s, that is correct. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Would the Minister just clarify maybe a little bit? He indicated that some had to still be approved by the Department of Highw ays. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: I was refe rring to the roads to Resources at that time, and these capital projects are all delivered by the Department of Northern Affairs. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Okay. All the ones that are listed, for example, when it says "Bissett, fire equipment; Dauphin River, drainage mainten ace," all these projects here, they come under this Item No. 6? HON. H. HARAPIAK: That is correct. MR. A. DRIEDGER: And they will all be undertaken by the Department of Northern Affairs? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: We hope to take them all, but it all depends on the tender process that somet imes if the tenders come in higher than we estimated, then we may have to elimi nate some of the programs. The communities may change some of their priorities as well. So then, if the community changes their priority, we may not proceed with some of the projects that have been listed. We are also looking at 34 of these programs being delivered by the communities themselves.

We are looking at creat ing employment opportunities, and we feel that's the way that the local community people will get a greater opportunity to participate in them If we have them delivered by local community councils. MR. CHAIRMAN: 6.(a)(1)-p ass; 6.(a)(2)- pass. 6.(b)

(1) Acquisition/Construction of Physical Asset s; Other Capital Projects; 6.(b)

(2) No rthern Flood Agreement. 6.(b)(1)- pass; 6.(b)(2)- pass. Resolution No. 135: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exc eeding $6,287, 100 for Northern Affairs, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1986- pass. Back to the Minister's Sal ary, Item No. 1.(a) - the Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would thank the Minister and his staff for providing us with the answers during the review of his Departmental Estimates.

However, I would like to re- emphasize the very important department that the Minister is resp onsible for. The people that live in those communities have many concerns that have been brought to my attention and colleagues of mine in the Legislature from various communities. I think they have been outlined, going through the Departmental Estimates, und er the Admi nistration section. But I re-emphasize the fact that the Northerners are very concerned about the lack of visible economic development projects that will provide the kind of employment opportunities that they wish to become involved In.

They feel that they have been let down, because of the degree of fanfare that was brought about by the signing of the Northern Deve lopment Agreement and now, some two-and-a-half years later, they are still waiting to see what kind of action this program is going to bring to the individual communities and to the Individuals that live in those communities. Certain ly, we haven't received any answers here today other than some what appear to be short-term kind of employment opportunities, whether it be through the Canada-Manitoba Agreement or whether it be through the Community Assets Program of the Jobs F