Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 44 (26th Legislature, 3rd Session)

26-3-44

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Name ALEXANDER, Keith BAIZLEY, Obie BJORNSON, Oscar .F. CAMPBELL, D. L. CARROLL, Hon. J.B. CHRISTIANSON, John Aaron CORBETT, A. H. COWAN, James, Q. C. DESJARDINS, Laurent . DOW, E. I. EVANS, Hon. Gurney FORBES, Mrs. Thelma FROESE, J. M. GRAY, Morris A. GROVES, Fred GUTTORMSON, Elman HAMILTON, William Homer HARRIS, Lemuel HARRISON, Hon.Abram W. HAWRYLUK, J. M. HILLHOUSE, T.P.,Q .C. HRYHORCZUK, M.N., Q.C. HUTTON, Hon. George INGEBRIGTSON, J. E. JEANNOTTE, J. E. JOHNSON, Hon . George . JOHNSON, Geo. Wm . . KLYM, Fred T. LISSAMAN, :R. 0. LYON,H on. �rling R., Q.C. MARTIN, w·. G. ·McKELLAR, M. E. McLEAN,H on.

Stewart E.,Q .C. · MOLGAT, Gildas MORRISON, Mrs . Carolyne ORIJKOW, David PAULLEY, Russell PETERS, S; PREFONTAINE, Edmond REID, A. J. ROBERTS, Stan ROBLIN, Hon. Duff SCARTH, W .B. , Q.C . SCHREYER, E. R. · SEABORN, Richard SHEWMAN, Harry P. SHOEMAKER, Nelson SMELLIE, Robert Gordon STANES, D. M. STRICKLAND, B. P. TANCHAK, John P. THOMPSON, Hon. John, Q.C. WAGNER, Peter WATT, J. D. WEIR, Waiter WITNEY, Hon. Charles H. WRIGHT, Arthur E. Electoral Division Roblin Os borne Lac du Bonnet Lake side The Pas Portage la Prairie Swan River Winnipeg Centre St.

Boniface Turtle Mountain Fort Rouge Cypress Rhine l and Inkater St. Vital St. George Duff erin Logan Rock Lake Burrows Selkirk. Ethel bert Plains Rockwood-Iberville Churchill Rupertsland Gimll Assiniboia Springfield . Brandon Fort Garry St. Matthews Souris-Lans downe Dauphin Ste. Rose Pembina St. John's Radisson Elmwood Carillon Kildonan La Verendrye Wolseley River Heights Brokenhead Wellington Morris Gladstone Birtle -R ussell St.

James Ham iota Emerson Virden Fisher Arthur Minnedosa Flin Flon Seven Oaks Address Roblin, Man . 185 Maplewood Ave., Winnipeg 13 Lac du Bonnet, Man. 326 Kelvin Blvd ., Winnipeg 29 Legislative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 86-9th St . , N. W. , Ptge. la Prairie, Man . Swan River, Man . 512 Avenue Bldg ., Winnipeg 2 138 Dollard Blvd ., St. Boniface 6, Man • Boissevain, Man . Legisla tive Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 Rathwell , Man . Winkler, Man . 141 Cathedral Ave ., Winnipeg 4 3 Kingston Row, St. Vital , Winnipeg 8 Lundar, Man.

Sperllng, Man . 1109 Alexande r Av e., Winnipeg 3 Holmfield, Man. 84 Furby St ., Winnipeg 1 Dominion Bank Bldg ., Selkirk, Man. Ethelbert, Man. Legislative Bld g., Winnipeg 1 Churchill, Man . Meadow Portage, Man . Legislative Bldg . , Winnipeg 212 Oakdean Blv d., St .James, Wpg. 12 ·Beausejour, Man • 832 Eleventh St., Brandon, Man . Legisl ative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 . 924 Palmerston Ave., Winnipeg 10 Nesbitt, Man . Legisla tive Bldg . , Winnipeg 1 Ste. Rose du Lac, Man. Manitou, Man. 179 Montrose St., Winnipeg 9 435 Yale Ave.W., Transcona 25, Man . 225 Melrose Ave., Winnipeg 15 St.

Pierre, Man. 561 Trent Ave ., E.K il d., Winnipeg 15 Niverville , Man . Legisla tive Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 407 Queenston St., Winnipeg 9 Beausejour, M� . 594'-.Aj:iington St. , Wfunipeg l.i> ·Morris . Man. · Neepawa, Man. - R�s�ell �. Man�_ 381 Guildford St. , St. James, Wpg. 12 iiamiota , Man . Ridgeville, Man. Legislative Bldg ., Winnipeg 1 Fisher Branch, Man . Reston, Man . Minnedosa, Man . Legislative Bldg . , Winnipeg 1 4 Lord Glenn Apts .1 944 Main St ., Wpg.1 7 . /

THE LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2: 30 o'clock, Thursday, April 13th, 1961 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. :MR. SPEAKER : Presenting Petitions. Reading and Receiving Petitions. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committee s. HON . STERLING R. LYON (Attorney-General) (Fort Garr y) : Mr . Speaker, I beg to pre sent the first report of the Standing Committee on Statutory Regulations and Orders . MR. CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Statutory Regulations and Orders beg leave tc present the following as their first report: Your Committee met for organization and appointed the Honourable Mr .

Lyon as Chairman. Your Committee recommends that for the remainder of the session the quorum of this Committee shall consist of six members. Your Committee met on Tuesday, the 21st day of March, 1961, and on Thursday , the 13th day of April , 1961. Your Committee recomme!!ds (1) that the Standing Committee on Statutory Re gulations and Orders consisting of Honourable Messrs . Lyon , McLean, Messrs .

Christianson, Groves, Hillhouse , Hryhorczuk, Hawryluk, Scarth, Smellie and Wright appointed by the House on Thursday , the 9th day of March 1961, be authorized to examine all regulations made under the Regulations Act from June 1st , 1960 to February 14th, 1961 .

(2) That the said Committee shall make its report with such recommendations as it may deem advisable to this House at the next regular 3ession of the Legislature and shall have power to sit during recess after adjournment or pro rogation.

(3) That the Provincial Treasurer be authorized to pay out of Consolidated Funds to members of the said Committee the amount of such expenses incurred by the members in attending the sittings of this said Committee during recess as may be deemed neces sary by the Comptroller-General . All of which is respectfully submitted. 1\fP.. . LYON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Public Works that the report of the Committee be received. Mr . Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . LYON: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the fifth report of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments. :MR. CLERK: Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments beg leave to present the following as their fifth report . Your Committee has considered Bills No. 53 ,

An Act to amend The St. Boniface Charter (1953) (1) ; 54 ,

An Act to validate By-Law No. 109 of the Village of Bowsman; 56 ,

An Act to validate By-law No. 1659 of the Rural Municipality of Springfield; 60,

An Act to amend The St. James Charter; 63,

An Act respecting the City of Portage la Prairie; 66,

An Act to validate the 196 1 Assess ment Roll of The City of Brandon and to amend The Brandon Charter; 69 ,

An Act to amend The Municipal Board Act; 71,

An Act respecting The Municipal Enquiry Commission in Manitoba; 74,

An Act to amend Ce rtain Provisions of the Statute Law No . 1; 79,

An Act respecting The Winnipeg General Hospital; 84,

An Act to amend The Education Department Act; 87,

An Act respecting Farmers Co-op Seed Cleaning Plant Limited; 90,

An Act to amend The Law Society Act; 91,

An Act to amend The St. Boniface Charter, 1953 (2) ; 96 ,

An Act to amend The Municipal Boundaries Act and to facilitate the Es tablishment of a Nuclear Research Area; 100 ,

An Act to amend The Hospital Debentures Guarantee Act, 1960; and has agreed to report the same without amendments. Your Committee has also considered Bills: No . 22 ,

An Act to validate By-Law No . 5-61 of the Town of Morden and an Agreement between the Town of Morden and Canadian Canners Limited; No. 47 ,

An Act to provide a Charter for The City of West Kildonan; 49,

An Act to pro vide a Charter for The City of Transcona; 57,

An Act to regulate and control Funds provided for the Pre-arrangement of Funeral Service s; 73,

An Act to amend The Exp ropriation Act; 75,

An Act to amend Certain Provisions of the Statute Law (2) ; 94,

An Act for the Rellef of the Estate of Charlie Young, Deceased; and has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. All of which is resp ectfully submitted. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Public Works , that the Report of the Committee be rece ived. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a volce vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the motion of the Honourable Member for Morr is, that the First Report of the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Conservation be rece ived. April 13th, 1961 Page 1821 . -

(Mr. Speaker, cont'd. ) • • • • • The Honourable Member for Roblin. :MR. KEITH ALEXANDER (Roblin) : Mr . Speaker, I took the adjournment on this on be half of the Honourable Minister of Agriculture. :MR. SPEAKER : The Minister of Agriculture. HON . GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture) (Rockwood-Iberville): Mr. Speaker, I have to confess that myself along with certain other members of the Agricultural Committee were under some misconception at the time that the motion was made to amend the bill when -it was under consideration in the Agricultural Committee .

And that as a result of that miscon ception a level of colour for margarine was provided for in the bill to which we had no intention of subscribing. I think that any of the members in the House who are members of. the Committee or who were listenin g to the debate concerning that bill in committee will recall that there were Hansen colour charts; there was reference to degrees of colour according to Lovabond Tintometer and that there were several different samples of margarine coloured in various degrees.

Through some confusion that was created by the discussions and the different samples at hand and the charts that were being passed around, an amendment was moved and supported by myself , to which neither the mover or seconder could subscribe or support when we checked this colour with the department tintometer. Further, there are a number of amendments that I would have to move in Committee 'of the Whole regarding the administration of regulations , the matter of re gulating the sale of coloured margarine in the province .

I think that it's better that these matters be considered in Agriculture Committee rather than to try and deal with them in Committee of the Whole. There is still some confusion amongst the members , although we have tried to clear up this matter of colour, and I think for the benefit of the members in the House and the public in general, it would be best if the final decision were reached in Committee, in the Agricultural Committee at least if the decision were taken under consideration in Agricultural Committee where there can be a wide field of discussion, more than is possible here in the House.

So I wish to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Public Works, that Bill No . 20,

An Act to amend The Margarine Act be not reported but be referred back to the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Conserva tion for further consideration. Mr . Speaker presented the motion. :MR. MORRIS A. GRAY (Inkster) : Mr. gpeaker, is this motion debatable ? :MR. SPEAKER: Beg pardon? :MR. ORA Y: Is this debatable? May I at this time ..•.. :MR. LYON: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, if I could rise up on one small question. I doubt whether under our rules we are permitted as a House to refer back one bill .

While that might be the fast way to do it , I think unfortunately what we have to do is refer the whole report back to the Committee in order that we may get at the one bill which is contained in t..'le report. I think if the Honourable the Minister would concur he might amend his motion to read, "That the report be referred back to the Agricultural Committee for further consideration of Bill No. 20. " I think that would accomplish what he is seeking to have done. :MR. HUT TON: I concur. :MR. SPEAKER: Is the House agreeable that the motion be amended ? :MR. D.L.

CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition) (Lakeside): Speaking on the point of order, Mr. Speaker, I really do not agree with the point as raised by the Honourable the Attorney-General because I believe that it is perfectly in order both here and at Ottawa to follow the procedure of moving that the report of the Committee be not now received with respect to Bill No . 20,

An Act to amend the Margarine Act, but that Bill No . 20 be referred back. Perso n ally I don't mind the way that's suggested at the moment if that's what we want to do, but I still · suggest to you that the other motion is in order as well. :MR. LYON: Mr . gpeaker, on that point I was being guided by P�-"agraph 326 in Beauchesne, Mr. Speaker, which states that the report of a Standing Committee should be considered final only when it is adopted by the House because until then the House can refer it, (referring to the report) back to the Committee with the instruction to amend it in any particular.

Now !think we're agreed on what we want to do, it's just the means whereby we do it. That's the problem , I think. MR. GRAY: Mr . Speaker, before I express my views which would take a minute and a half, I would like to know the reason why if this will not -- will this disqualify me to speak la ter if I ask a question? All right my question is: Why does the Honourable Minister wi,sh to refer back to the Committee -- the exact reason ? Page 1822 April 13th, 1961 \ '

MR. HUTTON: Can I answer the question, Mr. Speaker? MR. GRAY: The exact reason why the Honourable Minister wishes to refer back the report to the Committee . Is it colouring or what is it? All right, never mind. Mr. Speaker, I wish to place myself as the Honourable Member from Inkster, on record now that I am not in favour of any colouring of any kind; it's either one or the other. This differ ent colouring will only confuse things and it will show that the members of this House cannot make up their own mind and wanted to please their wives and their sweethearts . This is impossi ble.

So I declare that I am in favour of colouring, and the reasons I have given in my previous comment, and I shall not accept anything else but the full colouring. MR. SPEAKER : Are you ready for the question? MR. T.P. HILLHO USE , Q.C. (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Honourable Mini ster of Agriculture would show us the colour that he thought he was accepting and the colour that he wants to accept. MR. HUTTON: I will show it to you in committee. Mr. Speaker presen ted the motion-and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER : Introduction of Bills.

The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce . HON . GURNEY EV AJ.'!S (Minister of Industry & Commerce) (Fort Rouge) introduced Bill No . 113 , f ...n Act to amend The Town Planning Act. MR. SPEAKER: Committee of the Whole House . The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR . HUTTON: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Public Works that Mr . Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House re solve itself into Com mittee of the Whole to consider the following proposed resolutions . Mr.

Speaker presen ted the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House res olved itself into a Committee of the Whole House with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair . COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE MR. HUTTON: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor having been informed of the subject matter of the proposed res olution recommends it to the House . MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolved it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Department of Agriculture and Conse rvation Act by providing, among other matters , for the payment of monies from and out of the Consolidated Fund to assist students in be ginning, continuing or com pleting courses in veterinary science . MR. HUTTON: Mr. Chairman, honourable members of the House who have been here longer than I have will recall that a special fund was set up, the Veterinary Science Scholarship Fund was set up out of monies which accrued from profits from the sale of vaccine for the con trol of sleeping sickness in horse s.

These monies were accumulated some 20 years ago during the very bad outbreak of this disease and they were put into a special fund and they were used to assist young people from Manitoba to take their veterinary course at eithe r On tario or Quebec, with the goal, of course , of bringing these young people back to Manitoba, and having them se rve in this jurisdiction. Now some 58 students have made use of the monies that were set aside for this purpose.

The monies set aside in this fund were expended during the past fiscal year and it was necessary to provide funds in the 1961-62 estimates to cover the students whom we are now assisting in the veterinary course at Guelph, Onta rio. This legislation would author ize the appropriation that the House approved of in the es timates under the Livestock Branch appropriation. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution be adopted? Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole has adopted a certain resolution and directed me to report the same and ask leave to sit again. MR. W .G. MARTIN (St.

Matthews) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honour able Member for St. Vital that the report of the Committee be received, Mr . Speaker pres ented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carrie d. MR . HUTTON introduced Bill No. 110 ,

An Act to amend The Department of Agriculture and Conse rvation Act. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. HILLHOUSE: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are called, I wonder if I April 13th, 196 1 Page 1823 - - ..

(Mr. Hillhouse , cont'd .) ••••• could direct a question to the First Minister? It rises out of his resolution under the Colombo Plan. Yesterday, Mr. Speaker, you informed us that that was a private member's resolution. My understanding was that at the time this item came up in the educational estimates, that is the item of $45, 000, it was contingent upon the resolution which the First Minister was going to introduce into this House, and since the contingency of that $45 , 000 depends upon the resolution, my point is why that resolution was not brought in as a government resolution. HON.

DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): That's an interesting point, Mr . Speaker, and my honourable friend may well be right. I know the Clerk of the House thought that; there was another opinion expressed and there was some difference about it. As far as I am concerned I would be quite willing to regard it in either way as is most appropriate . If I'm wrong in con sidering it as a private bill, then, of course, I have no objection to having it classified as a public resolution. MR. SPEAKER : Orders of the Day. MR. ROBLIN: Mr .

Speak er, before the Orders of the Day, the re are a couple of iiiter esting matters the House might like to be acquainted with. First of all today happens to be tbe 25th Wedding Anniversary of the Honourable Member for Arthur. As an old married man of two and a half years I can appreciate his felicity on an occasion such as this. I should also like to say Sir, that I think it would be a matter of interest to this House to know that this year the State of North Dakota is celebrating its Centenary wllich is a notable event indeed in the life of any community on these western prairies.

When that fact became known, suggestions were made to me by the Honourable Member for Brandon and the Honour able Member for Turtle Mountain and perhaps others , that it might be appropriate if Manitoba were to recognize this happy event with our fraternal neighbour across the border. Consequently discussions were held with representative people in the various parties in the House and I believe it was generally agreed that it would be a very happy thought under the circu.mstances if we were to do something which would mark, in an especial way, this anniversary.

So on that basis I wrote to the Governor of North Dakota suggesting to him that we would like to invite his state Legislature , both Senate and House, to meet in joint session with the Manitoba Legislative Assembly in the Peace Gardens on June 17th. I have received a reply from the Governor stat ing that as far as he can tell at the moment that date would be suitable for him and that they would be happy to accept an invitation of this sort from us .

So I thought the House would like to know that arrangements are now being put in hand to have a joint meeting of this Legislature with the Legislature of North Dakota on June 17th at the Peace Gardens. It seemed to us that would be a very suitable place indeed in which such an international celebration could be held .

Those responsible are now at work in devising a suitable program for that day which will not only include the jo int meeting that I have referred to , but some other activities of a light nature within the Peace Garden itself and we hope before long to be able to advise all members of the House as to what is actually proposed. I do wish to say that I'm very happy indeed that the representatives of all sides of the House have agreed that this would be a good thing to do, and I'm delighted that the Governor of North Dakota has responded favourably to this idea.

I thank those who first thought of it, and place it before you because I feel it is a matter in which we will all be interested and which I think we will all be very happy to join. MR. CAMPBE LL: Mr. Speaker, I think this is a very worthwhile announcement and I certainly join, on behalf of our group, with thE. First Minister in expressing our appreciation of the fact that the Legislature of North Dakota is going to find it possible to meet with members . of this House on this occasion.

As the First Minister has ss.id, a centenary· celebration is of great interest in these young countries that adjoin one another in the North American Continent, and we should, I think seize these opportunities to better the excellent relations, and make them still closer, that we have with our big neighbour to the south. I think that the choice of the date is particularly appropriate too , Mr. Speaker, because if my vital statistics are correct, that's the birthday of a very important citizen of the Province of Manitoba.

I believe that the Honour able the First Minister on that particular day will be 44 percent as old as the state of North Dakota. While I don't think he will last as long as the State of North Dakota, and while I don't wish him too long a tenure of office, I'm sure that all of us will join with all of the others who gather on this occasion in wishing him, for that day at least, and on that occasion, the very Page 1824 April 13th, 1961

(Mr . Campbell , cont'd. ) ••••• best of health and happine ss. So I think all around, Mr. Speaker, it's,amost interes ting and worthwhile development and our party would like to be associated with the arrangements. MR . RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the CC F) (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I'm happy to join on behalf of our group here in the Asse mbly in this celebration of the lOO- year milestone of the State of North Dakota.

I think it's a very significant event when we look all over the globe and we see such strife and hostilities of one nation to another, how fortunate we are here in Manitoba and in Canada and across the line to the south of us , that we can join on an occasion such as this in friendship and brotherly love ; an exchange of greetings between two great nations, a great state and a great province . I, too , would like to thank those who thought up this idea; it's an admirable one and we of the CCF are happy to join in the celebration. MR . J ., M. FROESE (Rhine land) : Mr.

Speaker, I too am heartily in accord with the prop osition and per sonally I feel that it will be a very spec ial occasion and that we will also be cele brating our First Minister's birthday and I'm heartily in accord with the matter. MR . R. 0. LISSAlVIAN (Brandon): Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to add a word or two to this announcement of what will become a very memorable event I'm sure .

As you no doubt recall yourself, Sir, you were prese nt in Brandon at a meeting of several of the members from the western part of the province which included, in addition to yourself, the Member for Souri.s-Lansdowne, the Member for Minnedosa, the Member for Turtle Mountain and one or two other interested private individuals in that area, and this grew in a natural evo lution till we believe we have planned a truly wonderful day in the Peace Gardens.

We are par ticularly, from that end of the province , pleased that it will give members of this House , from the eastern part of Manitoba certainly , an opportunity to see what the Peace Gardens is rapidly becoming -- a truly wonde rful grounds . This then evolved till we got into the Legislature in ses sion and then we had a small committee including in addition to the ones I've mentioned, the Member for Seven Oaks and the Member for Rhineland, so that all parties would be made aware of what was going on, and we have come to the point now where we feel that this will be truly a wonderful event .

I'm glad the leaders of all parties have announced their pleasure of this and I wanted to just amplify a bit the item which the Leader of the CCf stressed upon , and that was the state of world affairs. I feel confiden�, Mr . Speaker, that this event, a gesture of goodwill between two countries, between provinces and state s of two countries, will not only be an inter national story but will be a story of world-wide importance , and we all feel that this will be a wonderful thing.

I am particularly pleased that the government and the First Minister has seen fit to agree to this centennial celebration with the North Dakota State . The Member for Turtle Mountain has some coloured post cards with beautiful views of the Gardens , and I believe he would be quite please d to make them available to the members , Mr. Speaker. MR . GRAY: Mr. Speaker, after all the leaders have endorsed this great event I take it that all the 57 members of the House are equally invited. MR . E. I. DOW (Turtle Mountain): Mr.

Speaker, the event - it will be a memorable event in the annals of Manitoba, taking place at the Peace Garden which happens to be in my constituency -- I am very pleased today to have heard the Honourable the First Minister's announcement and the acceptance of the Legisl atures of North Dakota.

To those of you who have had the opportunity some years ago of visiting the Peace Gardens and I'm hoping that all will take the opportunity this year of visiting, I know you're going to be very agreeably surprised with the amount of work that has been done within this garden and how beautiful it is in the setting where it is situated; and to those of you that have an eye of be auty towards horticulture you're going to be agreeably surprised -- along with the various stonework and roads and so forth that go to lend to a very beautiful place for an occasion such as this.

I believe , Sir , that I am right that the invitation will include all the wives and sweethearts of the members on that particular day. (Interjection) I can also say, Sir , that as well as a member of this Legislature , I am also a member of the Board of Directors of the Peace Gardens , and I can assure you that they are most happy that this occasion has been brought about and I know it wm strengthen the position of the Peace Garden and the work they are trying to do to promote the goodwill between not only our neighbour to the south but to all nations of the world.

With your permission, Sir , just as a little token of what the Garden looked like a year ago, I have some coloured post cards that, if the pages would pass them around to the members they could keep this as a reminder of April 13th, 1961 Page 1825 I I -

(Mr . Dow, cant'd. ) what the First Mini ster has established today , and I'm sure that on that day you're going to be not only pleasan tly received and welcome d there , but you're going to be in for a very great delight in your own heart as to the work that has been done by this committee of both North Dakota and Manitoba. MR. ROBLIN: Mr .

Speaker, I think the House would also be interested in another announce ment respecting our busine ss , namely that I would expect that this evening's meeting would con stitute a separate session of the House in line with our procedure now, and that if we should finish the business this evening before our usual time , or any apprecia ble period before our usual time, I would then think we would proceed to the Agricultural Committee to have that reconsidera tion that's been spoken of earlie r. MR . SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill 9. The Honourable the First Minister. MR. ROBLIN presented Bill No . 9,

An Act to amend The Workmen's Compensation Act (1) , for second reading . Mr . Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER : Second reading of Bill No . 103 . The Honourable the Minister of Utilit ie s. HON . J. B. CARROLL (Minister of Public Utilit ies) (The Pas) presented Bi ll No . 103 ,

An Act to amend The Public Utilit ies Board Act (2) , for second reading . lVIr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carri ed. MR . SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No. 106 . Tl-:.3 Honourable Minister of Labo ur . MR . CARROLL presented Bill No . 106 ,

An Act respecting the Certification of Qualifi ca- tions of Trade smen, for second reading. Mr . Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the motion of the Honourable the First Minister and the amendment thereto proposed by the Honourable the Leader of the OppoGition, and further amendment by the Honourable Member for st. John' s. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. lVffi. FROES E: Mr .

Speake r, the other night when the First Minister gave us a report on the economic review and also the Manitoba budget for 1961 I lis tened with great interest in what he had to say , and especially in regard to the economic outlook for the Province of Manitoba . I notice that on page 2 he states that the gross national product grew by le ss th::m 3 percent du.r ing 1960 to about $:15-1/2 billicm, that 's for Camcds., as compared to 6 percent g::-owth rAcorded in 1959 .

This is a definite decline showing that the growr:: ia not as fast , in fact E is going down, At a recent f02'Um here in the City cf Winnipeg, National Farm Forum, they had a spe::>Jcer out in the person of Mr. 1lv' alte1' L. Gordon '':ho i.s the chairr i',an of the Royal Commission on Canada's Ec onomic Prospects and he had thi s to say about the economic situatim: , ":t rc;;.1st be clear to everyone by now that t!le Canadian economy· is not developing 2nd prog:cessing as it should be .

It is in a sluggish or a stag:uanL state at present and beca use of this thore is mo=t ing and serious unemployment." It just so happens that when we have a setback in the economic situation that it affects most of the people in the country and especi ally so the people that are employe d. Then on page 5 I'd lil'e to read a further

section of the budget report , "The year 1960 was not a year of decline in our economy in r·eal terms , but one of slowing clown �cl the rate of economic growth -- a period of consol idation of gains rather· than of sharp advances.

The gross national product of Canada is, as I have indicate d,- estima ted to have risen between 2 and 3 percent last year, but this has to be compared with the rise approximating 6 percent in 1959 ." Further substantia ting the first statement that I already read so that there is no doubt in my mind that this is a serious situation and that we should give it serious consideration as well . When we have a situation like this , when we have unemployment it means that we have less purchasing power by the people of Cana da which is needed badly at the local level.

Once the people , the consumers do not have the required purchasing power naturally they cannot buy the goods and the goods stop moving and piling up, and as a result this means that we will have further unemployment beca use of this situa tion. On Page 4 of the -- I would like to rea d from the third paragra ph of the Budget Report: "In Manitoba we were able to record gains in new employment during the 1960 period and our unemployment experience was not noticeably better than for much of the rest of the nation.

However, as 1960 drew to a close , an estimated 4 to 5 percent of Manitoba's more than 300, 000 workers were unemployed. " And on the following page we have a chart showing the income of labour and we see a steady rise over the last ten years . There has been no decli ne in the labour Page 1826 April 13th , 1961

(Mr . Froese , con t' d.) ••••• income during those years; yet we are told that we have an ever increasing number of1Jeople employed in Manitoba. This means that the wages as such must be going up. I would like to refer to the Manitoba Farmers' Union Brief that was presented to the people of this House last fall, or early in the winter, and on page 8 we have a table of five year totals and averages, and it states in that table that the Manitoba weekly wage has been increasing over the last ten years and they give two five-ye ar periods.

In the period from 1950 to 1954 the weekly amount was $49 .36; then for the period 1955 to '59 it was $6 0.5 4 - - an in crease between the two periods of $11. 18 or an increase of 22 .8 percent. This definitely indi cates that wages as such have not gone down, in fact they have gone up, and since more people are employed the total amount increases and corresponds with the table from which I quoted earlier. But a hardship comes for those people that are not employed; those employed make good wages but those unemployed find it hard.

And now we have two groups in the unemployed, the one that's entitled to the unemployment insurance and thus are able to get some help and · assistance that way. But then we also have another group that are unable to get this unemploy ment insurance and those are the ones that are hardest hit. If the re is no employment they just have to get relief and the municipalities or the government through its welfare program have to assist these people. I think this government should make every effort to secure unemployment insurance for all the workers in M-anitoba, including the farm workers.

I think these charts also indicate that we. require a greater fle�bility than we have at present; We find·that we are not progressing as we did ill the past. ye ars; that we have a recession, and if this reces sion :;hould continue.then Jll,atters will·o,get .worse· and l think our labourers should lie willing to take less in the hourly rate in order to be able to compete with our products with other countries and also with different firms within Canada.

I already mentk>ned the decline in the economic growth and we have a further report in the Farmers' Union Brief that was presented to us , and on .page 4 they show a table of the five year totals and averages of farm cash and net income, and they quote that from 1950 to '54 the farm net income in the province was $609 ,9 41, 000: for the period 1955-59 this had dropped to $527 ,7 55, 000, an income loss between the two five-year periods of $82,1 86, 000.

I think these two tables show that the loss in income, or the decline in the economy rests in certain sections and that not all groups are as adversely affected, that we have differences there, and I think the farm group as one is more affected than a good number of the other groups are. I was also rather struck with the terms that were used and I noted from the report that the Minister mentions that this is a time of consolidation.

I think we find in various organiza tions when we discuss consolidation it means that it's declining, and a decline means that more · people will have to go·out of business; we'll have more bankruptcies and hardships are the result. I also noticed the reference made from time to time in the report when speaking of government expenditure that it frequently referred to government investment. I personally cannot see that. all these expenditures are investments;. we are creating debts·which have to be paid.

While I agree tliat we should.have expansion in our utilities where there is need, and I· know that we have a need today to extend such utilities as our hydro and telephones, but I like to take this stand that government shoUld be in as little busjnes·s as possible, that government is there to ·govern and not to be in business. However, I feel that our government should try to create a climate that people will invest and support business and free enterprise in the country and as a whole.

However, When private or free enterprise will not, or cannot, in some instances embark on _programs such as we have today I feel that it then is the government's duty to embark on such programs. Iwouldliketo refer to some of these. We recently had intro duced to the House here capital expenditures for the Manitoba Telephone System, for the Mani toba Water Supply Board. I think these are essential programs and they should have our full support. These are developments that a private organization would not undertake and I thi."lk it's the responsibility of the government in bringing them about and supporting them.

We also have the matter of agricultural research, and here is a big field, I think it should be explored more fully, and we should make every effort to increase re !le arch in agriculture. We also have the item of hospitals and homes for the aged. Here again I'm in full support of a program of this nature. We need hospitals; we need the homes for the aged, and I think this government has set up a good program regarding the homes for the aged and giving our elderly citizens a place where they can retire in their old age and be looked after. This also applies I think as April 13th, 1961 Page 1827 .- ..

(Mr. Froese , cont' d.) .•..• far as the welfare program ,...-it assists this matter of homes for the aged in supporting the operating of such homes . However, I also have to bring to the atten tion of the First Minister some of the errors that he made. On page 1723 of Hansard we have a table of the amounts owing by the various governments in Per Capita Debt and also in Gross Direct and Guaranteed Debt and he quotes Alberta as owing $22 .4 2 per capita, net direct debt.

He quotes those figures from the "C anadian Government and Municipal Financial statistics, " and we find from that report that that direct debt is also the gross debt, and that this debt would not be there if those debts were of such a nature that they could be repaid; that these debts are in bonds and debentures which are not callable and which have to run their cou rse , and as a re sult they are on the books of the Alberta Government. But they also have large amounts in reser ves to cover these and more than that.

The Minister, I think, referred, the other night when he made the speech, to the FL11ancial Post, and the Financial Post also contains quite a few articles 011 Manitoba, but it also has advertisements and articles on Alberta.

I would like to read from the Financial Post of April 8th, 1961, the following sections on Public Debts: "At March 31s t, 1960 all investments amounted to $437, 908 , 030, consisting of $309 ,7 56, 172 invested in debenture s of all muncipalities , school boards, hospital boards, rural electrification associations and Alberta Government teJ.ephones, and $128 , 151 , 858 in cash and debentures of the Federal and Provincial Governments ." So that the Alberta Government has large reserves and that these debts would not be on the books if they did not have to be there and that in fact they do not owe that per capita debt but have large reserves on hand.

I would also like to read a further paragraph from that same

article in re gard to municipal assistance: "The total direct assistance in major grants of all kinds will amount to $98, 976 , lOO for the coming year and indirect assistari.ce will be $36, 89 3,4 00 . Since 1950 we will have provided nearly $900 million towards relieving the burden of local taxpayer s." So that the Alberta Government is doing a lot for its taxpayers and I don't think we should' be concerned with their so-called debts .

I also notice from the Budget Report that was presented to us, from the graphs that are on the latter pages of the report on expenditures , and it shows the following, that in 1960- 61, expenditures on education in Manitoba amounted to 33 .7 percent and in 1961- 62 , it was less, it was 32 .3 percent; Health and Welfare for 1:'!60, 24. 6; in '61- 62, it was less - 24.4. MR. ROBLIN: Give the totals; give the totals while you1re at it . MR . FROESE: I haven't got the totals Sir , on the sheets that I'm reading from.

Mines and R.esources, 3. 5 percent the year before , this yea!' , 3.4 -- less also; highways , 12 .4 the year before ; 11 .6 this year. On the other hand '.•;hen it comes to interest and sinking funds we see the reverse . There , a year ago it was 1. 2 percent on interest; 2. 5 this year . On sinking fund, it was 3. 5 the year before ; 4.1 tbis year. So th::tt we have to, in oruer to meet our obli-· ga tions , we have to pay a great amount in interest also on sinking funda , and with the capital expenditures proposed for this year, these amounts will further incre 2.se.

Then we have on the other side of the revenue picture, we have the revenu':l from gasoline, motive fuel users' tax for 1960 and '61, 16 percent; '6 1-62 , 19 .6 -- we're guing to derive a greater incorr!e. I'm not disputing the increase in gasoline tax; I think the increase was made properly; I think it was made where it should have been made -- that if we have an increase in tax, it should have been on the gasoline as is being proposed. Revenue from dl'ivers' licenses , 7.3 for '61; 7.8 for '62.

Those are the perce ntages of the budget, and I feel that we should use these revenues from the drivers ' licenses and motive fuel and apply them on our road program . This year we're going to spend $12 million on roads provided for in the estimates; in addition to that we're going to borrow another $18 million on capital, so that we'll spend $40 million.

If we applied the total revenue on roads that we will be getting from the gas ta. v:: and the vehicle drivers' licenses it will amount to $28 , 925 , 000, so that we should have more revenue coming in order to meet the obligations and expenditures of our road program. I am also concerned with the taxes that we have at the municipal and local levels . We have increases there and when I recently introduced a resolution to the House that we should exempt from seizure land because of taxes, it was voted down. The other day we heard Mr .

Kushner appear before Law Amendments and it isn't only the farm people that are concerned with this matter. He explained it quite thoroughly that the people in the city are also concern�d with their taxes on real estate and that ther e's no es cape -- when these taxes are levied, there's Page 1828 April 13th, 1961

(Mr. Froese , cont'd.) ••••• no es cape, you have to pay, otherwise lose your property. There fore, Mr. Speaker, I would have to support the amendment made by-the Leader of the Oppo sition as I am unable to make any further amendments -- we have two amendments before us -- but I will support the amendment. MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Inlcster that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAK.ER : Adjourned debate proposed by the Honourable Member for Brokenhead. MR. ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker , I believe we have two second readings here, Bill No . 78 and Bill No . 92 , and a....""ter that as we come to Private Members I would then enquire if the House 'NaB willing to rise and proceed to Law Amendments Committee. But perhaps we could dispose of these 1;wo bills and get them started on their way, if they survive this grueling test of second reading. MR. SPEAKER: Second reading of Bill No . 78. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. ROBERT G. SMELLIE (Birtle-Russell) presented Bill No . 78,

An Act to amend Tb.e Pharmaceutical Act for second re£.ding, in the absence of the Honourable Member for Minnedosa . Mr . Speaker presented the motion and following a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. E .R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead) presented Bill No . 92 ,

An Act to amend The Public Utilities Board Act (1) for second reading. Mr. Speaker put the question. MR. CARROLL: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health and Public Welfare that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. ROBLIN: Now, Mr. Speaker, if I may have unanimous consent, I'll move the adjournment of the House until 8: 00 o' clock this evening.

I see no objection; therefore, I move , seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce that the House do now adjourn and stand adjourned until 8: 00 o'clock this evening. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House adjourned IDltil 8: 00 o' clock this evening. April 13th, 1961 ' 1 r Page 1829

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-3-44
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 3rd hansardpdf 44.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	0f3c4426dd38f4e06b6a947bd505d8ea46d361ce

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