Volume XL · Thursday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Third Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 37 7 May 1987

The House met at 3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development and Tourism. MR. BARRETT: am pleased to House today that 17, has been Tourism Week Mr . Speaker, I announce to the next week, May designated National in Canada.

The Province of Newfoundland and Labrador will participate in this week long recognition of our tourism industry through a series of special events designed to emphasize the important economic role of tourism and to raise the level of public awareness as to the benefits derived - from a successful tourism industry. National Tourism Week is a private-sector driven celebration and as such, local coordination for the event will be undertaken by Hospitality N~wfoundland and Labrador, which is the Tor ism Industry Association for the Province.

I am delighted to announce to the House today that my federal counterpart, the Honourable Bernard Valcourt, Minister of State (Small Business and Tourism), will be in St. John's on May 11 to participate in the proclamation ceremony and to officially kick off this week long Canadian celebration. L1935 May 7, 1987 Vol XL A full

schedule is planned for National Tourism Week including luncheons in St. John • s, Clarenville, Gander, Grand Falls and Corner Brook. As well, throughout the week special activities have been planned by regional groups including a mall exhibit in Labrador West among other events. Every effort is being made to involve the whole Province in Tourism Week under the general theme "Canada Grows With Tourism." I think it is rather fitting that we are taking a week to recognize the importance of the tourism industry.

Newfoundland and Labrador is just now starting to realize the potential represented by our tourism industry. The provincial government, working cooperatively with the federal government has invested significant money into the development of tourism, and our efforts have spurred millions more in private sector investment. The bottom line goal of national tourism week is to facilitate awareness of the importance of tourism. To that I would add that tourism awareness is a two-way street.

It involves an awareness on the part of the general public, as customers, to know what is available from tourism operators, establishments and experiences. And, perhaps more important to the growth of tourism, it involves the awareness of the tourism businessperson to realize what the needs, demands and expectations of tourists really are. If we can satisfy the tourist's expectations on a consistent basis, with reasonable standards and an overwhelming hospitality attitude, then we will be well on the way towards realizing the great No. 37 R1935

economic and job-creation potential of this industry. New opportunities in tourism are developing at this moment. In Labrador West, we are seeing train tours coming into the area for the first time this Summer, and from all indications, tourists are anxiously anticipating the opening of the road link to that region of our Province from Central Canada. As well, continuing archeological and

interpretation work will be done in Red Bay this Summer, and with recent improvements to the road into the area, we anticipate even more satisfied visitors than last year. The same can be said for L'Anse au Meadows, where the paving to the viking site has been completed and the route now offers an absolutely incredible journey down past Griquet and Quirpon to the World Heritage Site developed and administered by Parks Canada. New and exciting efforts are also being made on the Bonavista Peninsula, promoting the Bonavista Trail concept under a theme called "The Cabot Experience'L.

These areas are not only attracting an increasing number of visitors from outside the Province, but Newfoundlanders and Labradorians themselves are also starting to realize that what we have here in terms of holiday . experiences is unmatched and unrivaled anywhere this side of the Atlantic Ocean. For years we have been accurately described as an emerging tourist destination in this country. Mr. Speaker, I am confident in predicting that this year we will truly emerge and blossom into one of the most sought after destinations on this Continent.

I call on all hon. members and all people of the Province to do what Ll936 May 7, 1987 Vol XL they can to promote tourism in this beautiful Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. during this National Tourism fnfeek and beyond. For you see, tourism is everybodies business, and Newfoundland and Labrador can and will "Grow with tourism". Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: On behalf of the Liberal Party, or the Liberal faction in this House, I wish to compliment the private sector for organizing Tourism Week.

I should also cctmpliment the minister, I believe, for the fantastic job that he has done with advertising down through the United States. I have gotten several comments from fri,ends who have visited the Stat;es and friends who are living in the States. I can say, as I am being told, that truly our adve~rtising, Mr. Minister, is second to none in this great Nation and I think the minister deserves to be complimented on that. We, on this side of tho House, have been committed to tourism for quite some time.

We haLve also been commit ted to doing s:omething about that ninety miles from North Sydney to Port aux Basques , Mr. Speaker. There is a lovely, big, new ferry on now, a luxury liner, but only the rich can afford to travel on it. Unless something is done whereby that particular

section of water is treab~d as an No. 37 R1936

extension of the Trans-Canada Highway, tourism will never reach its potential in this Province. Now something has to be done about that Gulf, because it is like a solid wall which keeps the average tourist out of Newfoundland. Kr. Speaker, if we are going to have a big tourism industry, we must bring in the average men and women of North America. We cannot rely upon a few wealthy people who come here to see the quaint people and to go back after having a reasonable time, we have to attract all people, the middle-classes as well as the wealthy. The Tourism Association of this Province, Mr.

Speaker, has done an exceptional job. The Northern Peninsula has been opened up, I believe, and I think Hospitality Newfoundland had a great

part in doing that. But I would put forward a word of caution to the hon. minister, and I am sure he will listen to it. There is always a danger of the Tourism Association becoming a closed shop, Kr. Minister. There is always the danger of a closed shop, and I see indications of this happening now in Northern Newfoundland. Members of the Association are all motel and tourist cabin owners, tourist operators, and it is not to their advantage to see any competition coming into the are.

They do not seem to realize that more than one motel is going to give them more tourists; they see a second or third motel as a threat. I learned the other night that in the Department of Tourism itself there is a policy that if one motel is established in a particular community, then a second motel is being discouraged from opening up there. L1937 Kay 7, 1987 Vol XL Now if this philosophy weL·e followed, Mr. Speaker, in Prince Edward Island, there would only be one motel in Prince Edward Island today and Prince Edward Island would not be the great tourist haven that it is.

This is something I think the minister has to watch, that the ·Tourist Association does not become a closed shop, that there is room for expansion. Because there is almost infinite room for expansion in tourism. We have 300 million people on this Continent, Kr.

Speaker, who are potential visitors to this Province, and if we are going to allow tourism to become a closed shop, so that if there is one motel in a place there is not another one allowed, or if there is one set of tourist cabins we are not going to allow another, we are going to end up with a tourist industry which is far, far below what it could become. The statement mentions the road in Labrador West. I should also ask the minister to try to encourage the extension of the road from Quebec into Blanc Sablan - from Quebec into L'Anse au Meadows, Mr. Speaker.

This would make a tremendous avenue for tourists coming in from Mainland Canada whereby they could travel down through Montreal to the North Shore of Quebec and into Blanc Sablan and L'Anse au Clair, across on the Gulf, forming a loop because tourists hate to backtrack. They could travel that loop and visit Red Bay, visit L'Anse au Meadows, and take the loop to Port aux Basques and across to North Sydney. I hope the minister will take that advice, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. No. 37 Rl937

MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The minister in his statement, I think at the end of it, says he calls on all members of the House to do what they can to promote tourism in this beautiful Province so I intend to that right now. For the information of the minister, obviously, and all other members of the House, the road between Labrador West down through Gagnon to the Daniel Johnson Dam to Baie Comeau and out is open now.

It has not been officially opened, I understand that will be next month, in June, by the Province of Quebec, but Mr. Speaker, it is an excellent highway, you can average sixty miles an hour on most of it except for small stretches. We expect this Summer to see a drastic increase, a tremendous increase in tourists coming to our area. One of the things I should tell bon. members is that the Daniel Johnson Dam, otherwise . known as Manic 5, is about half way between Labrador West and Baie Comeau.

The Manic 5 Dam now receives something in excess of 5,000 tourists per year, and we anticipate that a number of them will continue the journey up to Labrador West and hopefully take advantage of the tremendous opportunities in Labrador West, both in fishing and hunting and, of course, in looking at some of the largest iron ore mines in the world. I do have one specific suggestion for the minister and that is that it is very difficult L1938 Kay 7, 1987 Vol XL to get tourists up there if they do not know what is available.

I would ask him to now consider putting a tourist chalet in Baie Comeau, at the point where the main highway branches off to go up towards Labrador West, so that we may inform the 6 million people of the Province of Queb1~c, and Ontario beyond them, of the attractions we have up there so that we can start bringing more and more tourists up there .. Mr.

Speaker, I am proud to say that we look on tourism as the emerging industry in Labrador West and we are hoping, over the next number of years, to build up the infrastructure and the hotels and the other employment that we will get from thousands and t:housands of tourists. Mr. Speaker, the other important thing to realize is that they will be able to continue beyond Labrador West on the railway up to Esker and on to Happy Valley -Goose Bay, and start developing the tourist industry in that area as WE~ll. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAICER: Before recognizing the bon. the President of Treasury Board I would like to welcome to the visitor's gallery twelve Grade X students from Beaumont and Long Island Academy with their teacher, Colleen Collins. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . SPEAICER: I would like to welcome thirteen Grade VIII students with their teacher, Mr. Louis Budgell, from F.G. Bursey Memorial School, representing Central Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. 37 R1938

Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I would like to welcome Richard Walker, an exchange cadet from St. Albans Combined Cadet Force, Hertfordshire, England, with Bi 11 Martin, Craig Murphy and Brian Power of 2415 Gonzaga Cadets. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce that government has made significant progress with the implementation of employment equity initiatives within the Public Service.

The members of the House will recall that government accepted the report on the Task Force on Affirmative Action for Women in August of 1985, approving all of the report's forty-eight recommendations, either fully or in principle. The- major employment equity initiatives which have been accomplished since then are as follows:

(1) Crown corporations and agencies have been advised of their responsibilities for implementing affirmative action programmes and policies.

(2) Government's Personnel Administration Procedures have been amended to reflect the recommendation on the Labrador allowance, maternity leave, family responsibility leave, and related areas. Collective agreements are being amended as they are renewed.

(3) My colleague, the bon. Minister Responsible for the Status of Women, is monitoring appointments to boards to ensure L1939 May 7, 1987 Vol XL appropriate representation of women.

(4) Two career counsellor positions have been approved for the Public Service Commission.

(5) Changes have been recommended to the relevant pensions legislation to permit participation of part-time employees in pension plans.

(6) Sexual harassment clauses are being included in Collective Agreements, and a policy on personal harassment is being developed.

(7) My colleague, the Minister of Justice, has initiated a review of The Newfoundland Human Rights Code.

(8) The Accelerated Management Development Programme for Women (since renamed the Accelerated Career Development Programme for Women to reflect the diverse backgrounds and career interests of the participants) is in its final stages. Individual career counselling, developmental assignments and training have been provided, and a final evaluation will be prepared by the Public Service Commission shortly.

(9) A Personnel Policy Division has been created within the Treasury Board Secretariat. Amongst other responsibilities it oversees the implementation of employment equity, and is developing policies on flextime and job sharing.

(10) Each department has appointed an Affirmative Action Co-ordinator. Initial training for this group has been provided and further sessions are planned for May. At that time, co-ordinators will be presented with a complete work force analysis of their departments.

(11) The Day Care Centre located adjacent to the Confederation Building Complex is scheduled to open in early June.

(12) Dr. Keith Winter, Deputy Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies, has been appointed to chair the Affirmative Action No. 37 R1939

Council. I have requested that the fit"st meeting of the Council be scheduled for' mid-May.

(13) The Task Fot"ce on Affinnative Action was t"e-appointed to study the public seLVice t"elated employment conceLns of people with disabilities, and a t"epot"t is being finalized. My colleague, the Minister' Responsible for the Public Service Commission, and I expect to receive it shortly and we will be making an appropLiate announcement about its t"ecommendations in due course. Although not an initiative under goveLnment' s employment equity progt"anune, Mr. Speaker, I am also pleased to note the increased number of highly qualified women among t"ecent appointments to executive positions. Mr.

Speaker', these initiatives rept"esent significant strides toward the creation of a Public Service which fait"ly and effectively manages all of its employees, and clearly demonstrate government's commitment to employment equity. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista Marth. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I expect the first thing in order is to congratulate the people who wet"e responsible in bt"inging pt"essure to bear on goveLnment to bring in these initiatives that we have here today, to force them to appt"eciate and to recognize and undet"stand the discrimination that has been L1940 May 7, 1987 Vol XL held against the female population of this Pt"ovince.

We want to commend them for the terrific organization that they have had, the tremendous enet"gy and initiative that they have taken over the years to try and impress upon goveLnment the nE~ed for equalizing job opportunity in this Province and equalizing the chances to serve on government committees. Having said that, we, on this side, are certainly pleased with the recommendations that have come forward today.

But in this, as in other matters, we are concerned about the large issues which have not yet been addressed, particularly the i tern relating to the concern that the female population have for equal pay for work of equal value. TJe have insisted that the goveLnm1mt pass this legislation, as they have done in other jurisdictions in Canada, to ensut"e that all people working in similar jobs receive the same pay. MR. SIMMONS: Teachers have it. MR. LUSH: Teachers have it, as the gentleman to my left says, and that is correct.

That is what should be the general application to the entire population, as is happening in the teaching profession. There should be no ~ispari ty \lolri th pay with respect to people en1~aged in work of equal value. That is a major issue that the females of this Province have been looking for for years. W1e are disappointed that we see no provision for that in these particular initiatives, but, with the other i terns, we are certainly pleased to see that government has moved at least on the thirteen No. 37 Rl940

items in this pat:'ticulat" document today. We would like to see day cat"e expanded. We would like to see mot"e money put into the day cat"e centet"s, anothet" item, anothet" issue which these people have been fighting for' so vigot"ously, Mt". Speaket". MR. SPEAKER: Ot"det", please! The bon. member's time has elapsed. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker. It is usual to thank the minister fat" a copy of the statement but since he did not give me a copy of the statement, I am not going to thank him.

I would appt"eciate it if he would in the future, actually. Mr. Speaker, that is the most mealy-mouthed, wishy-washy statement I have ever heard in my life. Thet"e is no substantive evidence in that to indicate thet"e has been any appreciable action. I refer to tht"ee . programmes and, specifically, the day care centre. The day care centt"e is one which is a user pay concept totally, government is providing the premises, but everything else has to be paid for. So .I do not see what that as a gt"eat commitment to day care het"e. The accelerated promotion, Mr.

Speaker, is limited to one individual, one woman within each depat"tment, and that certainly gives us a top limit of a very Ll941 May 7, 1987 Vol XL small number' of women. But, Mt:' . Speaker, the t"eal pt"oof of the pudding, so to speak, is what is happening with the Royal Newfoundland Constabulat"y. Befot"e the accelet"ated pt:'ogt"amme was in place, befot"e the Affit"ffiative Action Programme was in place, we had fifteen or sixteen women in the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. Mr.

Speaket", they put in an Affit"ffiative Action Programme and now we are down to thirteen women in the Royal Newfoundland Constabulat"y. We have not gone fot:'Ward, we have gone backwards. Mr. Speaker, if that is what is happening in the one highly visible example of bringing women into non-traditional jobs, then the rest of it has to be just as big a bluff as that particular thing is. Mr. Speaker, this is with a minister who has been committed to impt"oving the lot of women in employment for as long as she has been involved in politics.

I salute her fat" that, but it must be a terribly frustt"ating job to be in a Cabinet where obviously nobody is willing to put anything in tet"ffis of t"esout"ces into backing up the brave words they at"e saying. Mt". Speaker, this is just a sham! I am not surpt"ised the minister' did not give me a copy of this statement. He knows that a weak tissue of fabt"ication like that can easily be seen. Kr. Speaket", it is a shame what this government is doing in tet"ffis of affit"ffiative action for women and we will continue to push them until they actually start living up to their obligations. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! No. 37 Rl941

Oral Questions MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). My question to the Minister of Finance is: Can the minister indicate whether he or his officials in the Department of Finance had been involved in or consulted with re discussions relating to Mr. Wilson's so-called tax reform? DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Yes. I think I have stated that quite a number of times, but, yes, it is true. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is the minister aware that a Mr. Bill Buckwold, ·a member of the faculty of management with the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, and a Governor of the Canadian Tax Foundation from 1983 to 1986, in a recent

article said, 'In fact, the so-called tax reform is the first step of an agenda that will result in the most massive tax increases in the history of North American L1942 May 7, 1987 Vol XL politics.' He calls it 'a political fraud, created by the (present) federal government' - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Would ll;;he bon. member please pose his questi_on? MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I started off with a question. I asked if the minister is aware, and then I had to give the appropriate information to ask what he was aware of. Mr.

Speaker, having que) ted the statement, what is the Province's position on this national tax scheme that is going to be proposed by Mr. Wilson? What is the minister's position? DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, today we have seen a tremendous advance. Usually the bon. member quotes my Budget Speech back to me, but no1w we are going onto other articles which he is quoting back to me now. So this is advanced. Mr. Speaker, I cannot comment on what a particular individual thinks. His credentials sound pretty good.

Of course, there are crackpots with good sounding credentials. I am not saying he is a crackpot, but I am not just necessarily excluding him from being a crackpot. I think that his remarks sound to me a little extreme. I think that tax reform is an issue that every wc)rthwhile government has to grapple with, not just once in a while:! but it has to grapple with it throughout its mandate. I think the: federal No. 37 Rl942

government is to be complimented in taking this nettle, this potentially damaging issue, and not being afraid to - face up to it. They have looked at the matter now for a number of years, they put tremendous numbers of man-hours into it. We have had, I would say, at least three, if not more - four or five, possibly - but certainly at least three items on the agenda at various federal/provincial Finance Ministers meetings in this regard. So they are looking at the subject extremely seriously.

We have had some information, quite a bit of information as to the way their line of thought is going, but we are certainly looking forward to the White Paper that will be published on June 18. I might add that Mr. Wilson was good enough to phone me yesterday to tell me, and he phoned other Finance Ministers, obviously, indicating that this was a statement he was going to make in the House, that this was his intention. He filled in a few details, but we will get fuller details on June 18. MR. LUSH: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplerne~tary, the hon. member for Bonavista North. MR.

LUSH: Mr. Speaker, would the minister not agree that the hidden agenda behind this so-called tax reform is to permit the federal government and the provincial government to reduce their massive deficits on the backs of small businesses and the consumers throughout this country? Would the minister not agree that this is the main thrust of the tax L1943 May 7, 1987 Vol XL refor·m, and he would he not admit that this proposed tax reform is nothing but a political scam? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I cannot admit that.

That is like asking, 'Have you admitted kicking any small dogs recently. I cannot admit that. But I will say this, though, that the whole taxation system is built on the little man in the little business. Why? Because there are more of those in the population than anyone else. I would say, if you tot it up, the tax intake for this government or any other government, you would find that the people in the middle - the middle class, the not too small a fellow, the not too rich a fellow, but the bulk in the middle there - are the ones who render most of the taxes.

So there is nothing new about what the hon. member said. The only thing I would question with him is I would not put those motives to this exercise of tax reform. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD:.. To the Minister of Finance. It is certainly evident that all Newfoundlanders are well aware of high taxes, especially now with this new tax reform corning down. Some experts in the tax reform state that Mr. Wilson's suggested tax reform could be inflationary because businesses - MR. SPEAKER: No. 37 R1943

Order, please! The han. member is reading a statement. MR. EFFORD: That is my question. SOME HON. MEMBERS: That is a Rexogram. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, am I allowed to read my question? MR. SPEAKER: I understood the han. member was reading a particular item. Would the han. member please pose a question? MR. EFFORD: It has been stated very clearly that businesses are expected to pass along to the consumers the increased tax cost.

Has the minister investigated this possibility of indirectly taxing the consumer, or is he just taking the assurance of his Tory buddies in Ottawa that Newfoundland's interests are not taken care of? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member is referring to the federal proposal. It is not a fixed thing yet, but it is a federal proposal that they will change their federal sales tax to either a business transfer tax or to a value added tax. The federal sales tax is now a totally hidden tax, unlike our retail sales tax which is upfront.

When you go in and buy something here, the vendor rings up the price and then he rings up the tax. So you can see exactly L1944 May 7, 1987 Vol XL how much retail sales tax you are paying. The federal sales tax is not displayed that way now, it is a totally hidden tax. Now, obviously any change would be for the better, at least it would be no worse. I mean, even i'f they hide the BTT or the VAT it would be no worse than the present federal sales tax.

But my understanding is thai~ that decision is not made yet and it may well be that whatever new tax they bring in will be morE~ visible than the present FST, because the FST is now totally hidden. MR. SIMMS: Anyway it is their jurisdic~tion. MR. EFFORD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, the greatest fear with hidden taxes is that any government at any given time can increase those taxes without anybody being aware of it. Can he ensure this House that Mr. Wilson's tax reforms will not result - MR.

MATTHEWS: How can he assure that? Do not be so foolish, boy! MR. EFFORD: Can he ensure, for the protection of Newfoundlanders -he has to stand up for Newfoundlanders and he has to fight for Newfoundlanders -that it will not result in ever increasing and staggering tax burdens on Newfoundland consumers, who are already paying the highest tax rate in North America? No. 37 Rl944

MR. PATTERSON: Did you fellows pay the tax on Clyde Wells when you bought him? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, our position, in consultation with the federal government, is that we have made the point that any tax reform should be neutral, hopefully it should be neutral. It should not raise more. We have to be realistic and, because the federal government needs income just like we do, it likely will not be less.

Now that is not to say that it will be neutral for every single taxpayer or probably every sector of the community, of society, but generally speaking we have pushed for neutrality in any change in the retail sales tax and other taxation changes. MR. EFFORD: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. EFFORD: In the budget just brought down recently, the minister apparently stated that he was not increasing corporate taxes. Was he at this point aware tha~ Mr. Wilson's hidden agenda was going to sock it to the people of this Province and that his political hide could be saved? MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, we cannot speak for the federal government, you know. We are extremely good on this side of the House, this is an enormously effective and L1945 May 7, 1987 Vol XL productive administr·ation, the Peckford administration, but we cannot be responsible for the whole country, so I cannot tell the federal Finance Minister how to run his shop.

All I can say is that when we brought in no tax increases in the corporate 'sector in our recent budget, obviously we were applying that to our own jurisdiction, our own responsibility, that is the provincial corporate tax, and that is our plan for the next year. When next year' s budget comes around we will bring in whatever plan seems appropriate. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: I have a question for the Minister of Finance and it is also along the - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMS: Was that one written by Rex? MR.

TULK: No, it is from Dave Gilbert's shop, sweeping the floors. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance and it concerns Mr. Wilson's tax proposals again. Now the minister has indicated that there have been meetings on then. I would ask the minister has he, as the Provincial Minister of Finance, the investigated the effect of the business transfer tax, which is a variation of the value added tax, No. 37 Rl945

has he investigated in any way the effect that this might have if Mr. Wilson brings it in? And in the discussions has he raised the question of the effect it might have on the purchase of medical or educational service in the Province? I would like to ask him will this mean added cost for people in the Province who are seeking medical attention and those trying to upgrade themselves educationally in a Province where people are already the highest taxed in the country. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, we have not gone into any detailed analysis for the very good reason that we do not have all the details yet and no one has all the details. The details will come out in the White Paper on June 18. However, we have asked the federal government that when they give us their final assessment, their finalized proposals, that they will give us as clear a breakdown and analysis as possible as to the effect on this Province in various parts of our provincial economy and, of course, other provinces have asked the same thing. This is a very complex subject.

The federal government, I am. sure, will be anxious to co-operate because they will want to have their proposals as acceptable as possible, and they will be anxious to give us what information they can. But we have made it very clear that we are not giving any blanket approval at this stage, we are just taking the information given to us, and we said we will keep our options opened, we will want to have detailed information both as to the effect on the finances of the provincial government and L1946 May 7, 1987 Vol XL the effect on economy before final decision. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, member for Fogo. MR. TULK: the Newfoundland we will make a the han. the Mr. Speaker, we are hearing Mr. Wilson in Ottawa saying that the provincial ministers agree~. Is he correct when he says t:hat the provincial ministers agree~? Or is the provincial Minister of Finance saying that he agrees '"ith the implementation of those tax reforms, particularly the business transfer tax, the value added tax? Is he saying that he has agreed with the federal minister on the basis of what the federal minister says?

He has just said that he has not done a detailed analysis of the effects of this tax on the Province of Newfoundland. Is he saying that he is agreeing with his own political party in Ottawa on the basis of the information t:hat they have provided him? AN HON. KEMBER: Oh, yes. MR. TULK: Just a minute. He will answer the question.

Or is he telling us that indeed he has not to this point, in spite of the fact that he has had discussions, done any analysis of what the effect, say, is going to be on the cost of medical and education services in the Province, a cost which will be passed to the people, the consumer of those particular services? Is he telling us that? No. 37 R1946

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, as I said, before we have not agreed to anything yet because the federal government has not finalized its position yet, and we will not know the federal government's finalized position until 18 June when the White Paper comes in, and that clearly will not be the last word anyway. That is going to be a matter for later discussions and later negotiations and so on, but we will not get a finalized view of their thinking until 18 June. So there has not been an opportunity to agree or disagree with anything as yet. Nothing has been finalized.

They are going to give us as much information as they possibly can, we are going to ask for as much detailed information as we can, and then we will then be in a position ourselves to make up our own mind on things.

We have a team of officials who have been in contact with this subject, as they have been in other aspects of the taxation system where the provincial and federal jurisdictions make contact with one another, we have that team of officials alerted to this whole subject, and they are getting what information is available to them at the earliest possible moment, and putting as much effort into it as they can conceivably do. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon . the member for Fogo. MR. SIMMS: Oh my, oh my! MR. TULK: L1947 May 7, 1987 Vol XL Mr.

Speaker, does the economist, who swept the floors of Dave Gilbert's garage, have problems? Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Minister of Finance once again - he has a team of officials - SOME HOB. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, can you keep those people quiet? Let me ask the minister this. He says he has a team of officials in place who are carrying on meetings. He says he has no detailed analysis. We have heard this Minister of Finance make all kinds of excuses for the state that this Province is. In his budget he did it and the Premier has done it. Let me ask the Minister of Finance, Mr.

Speaker: Has the Finance Minister of this Province now given up or is he about to give up the financial responsibilities of this Province in his efforts to make friends with the people in Ottawa that the Premier has been trying for months to cover up what he did for from November to February? Are we giving up complete fiscal responsibility? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I think the record is clear. We do not give up anything from this Province to the federal government or anyone else.

We assess things in the light of the good of the people of this Province, and that is the attitude we have always taken and we always will take. No. 37 R1947

On this tax matter - I wi 11 say it again -the federal government has a number of proposals, a number of options, a number of alternatives, that they have been talking about. We know some details of them. We do not know all the details. We do not know which direction they are particularly going in, they could go in a number of directions.

We have asked them, whatever direction ·they come in, to make sure that they give us the fullest information possible, and we have told them, when we have that information, we will make up our own minds on the basis of our own assessment of all the facts and figures and all the implications down the road of these particular proposals, and we will keep our options, and any agreement or disagreement or whatever, open until that time. MR. LONG: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John's East. MR. LONG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Premier.

It has to do with. the recent resolution of the court case in which eight leaders of the Innu community and one Catholic priest were found guilty of violating game regulations.

In light of this, and the turmoil that this has caused in the Innu community in Sheshatshit, in which we saw people camping outside the jail in Happy Valley last night, and in light of the fact that the Premier is the person in this government responsible for aboriginal affairs, and his own presence at the First Ministers' Conference speaking to the issues concerning Ll948 May 7, 1987 ·Vol XL Native people in this Province, is the Premier considering a personal intervention in the situation to resolve what is obviously a continuing conflict that has not been fully resolved by the courts, and is now more clear.ly a political situation?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question. I think the policy of the Government of Newfoundland is very clear. We think that all residents: of the Province should be treated the same under the law, that there are no exceptions, that all 1,eople of the Province, regardless of their ethnic origin, should have the same rights and privileges as everybody else. Nobody special, everybody equal. We maini~ain that as a fundamental principle of our policy. Therefore, I do not intend to intervene. The governmEmt does not intend to intervene.

We want all of the residents of Newfoundland and Labrador to abide by the laws of this ProviLnce. No special status for anybody! Equality for all! So, the ref ore, I do not intend to intervene because I do not beli1~ve that there should be special si~atus for any group of people, espec~ially as it relates to the wildlife regulations in this particular case, where we are trying to protect a particular caribou resource.

Secondly, may I just add1, because I want to and I think it is important to, in this whole dispute with the Innu of Labrador, as I understand it, from all the information that we have: at our No. 37 Rl948

disposal, the Naskaupi Montagnais Association or the Innu people of Labrador to this date have not recognized the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. Now, how can the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, even if it wanted to do something, do something when the Innu people of Labrador have not recognized us as the legitimate government of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador? We have written them, I have a letter here before me, about starting land claim negotiations and so on with the federal government, but the Innu people of Labrador will talk to the External Affairs Minister of Canada (Mr.

Clark) and will not talk to the Government of Newfoundland as now presently and constituted democratically elected. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: I have a real problem. Principle number one is that we take the position that all people in the Province should · be treated equally. The laws apply equally to all, special status for none. Two, I have a greater problem because whilst I recognize the Innu of Labrador, one, and while I recognize that they do have legitimate aboriginal rights, two, they do not recognize me. MR.

LONG: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Ll949 May 7, 1987 Vol XL A supplementary, the han. the member for St. John's East. MR. LONG: The Premier has contradicted himself in a fundamental way speaking out of both sides of his mouth, on the one hand saying they do not have special rights and then he recognizes their rights.

Given that the Premier has said very unequivocally that they do not have special rights in this Province, is the Premier prepared to let this situation deteriorate in which a reciprocal situation of lack of recognition is going to encourage further law breaking and we are going to see more leaders of the aboriginal community be put in jail again in all likelihood? Is that what the Premier is encouraging, further lawbreaking by a lack of recognition, lack of willingness to talk? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: We have . said to the Innu of Labrador, Mr.

Speaker, and I have a letter in my hand, written by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Warren), dated November 28, and we have made a statement three or four years ago that we recognize that they have aboriginal rights and that we should sit down with them and the federal government, because we all have a role to play here, to work out what will be the land claim settlement and ongoing rights of the Innu people. On November 28, 1986, this letter was written by the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) on behalf of the government.

Here is the letter: "I would like to thank you and your other No. 37 R1949

representatives of the NMIA for the opportunity of meeting during my recent visit to Labrador. At that time you suggested a meeting with government officials concerning land claims before the upcoming Prime Minister's Constitutional Conference on Aboriginal Rights. "As I submitted understand, the their statement NMIA of claims to the Government of Canada in 1977. It was accepted as a valid claim based on aboriginal use and occupancy by the federal Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs in 1978 according to the criteria set forth in the 1973 federal land claims policy.

"As you are aware, in 1980 the Province agreed to enter into tripartite negotiations with the NMIA. However, it is my understanding that the NMIA" - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. EFFORD: I was not allowed t~ read a question. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, this is germane. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: "-have not yet completed the background preparation which is requested by the Federal Government before they ·can proceed with their assessment of a particular cl~im.

To the best of my knowledge, the NMIA have not participated in the federal/provincial constitutional discussions on aboriginal rights. As you may recall in 1982, the Ll950 May 7, 1987 Vol XL hon. G.R. Ottenheimer, the Minister of Justice, wrote the NMIA requesting their views on issues that were to be discussed on the upcoming First Ministers' Conference. The NMIA declined the invitation. Neverthele~;s the Province would still be pleased to hear their views at that tiLme." MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the bon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I stood up here this afternoon and I was re:ading a question of two lines in this House and I was told by the Speaker of the House that I was not allowed to read the question and here the speaker who is up now is reading a three page letter. Mr. Speaker, it is an abus:e of the Question Period. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, I think the point is well taken. I would like to mention, as it r,efers to questions here, our Standing Order 31 (d): "Oral Questions must not be pefaced by the reading of letters, telegrams, newspaper extracts or

preambles of any kind." I feel that that is exactly the same as fa.r as I understand. The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, to finish to the question I summarize, because this important issue for the No. 37 the answer ~rant to is a very people of Rl950

the Province and for the Innu, and I want to make the government's position quite clear. We have been prepared since 1980 to sit down and participate in discussions with the Innu and the federal government and they have not been prepared to do so. MR. TULK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I detest doing this because we had partly an arrangement, at least, that points of order should be raised after Question Period, and I believe they should, but there is no way.

The Speaker has, and rightly so, brought members to attention to keep their questions short in this House. Now, Mr. Speaker, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: Are we going to allow the Premier, who, even though he is the Premier is still a member of this House, to stand up and go on and on, ad nauseam, reading _ letters on an answer that should be kept short, and repeating himself over and over and over? If we are, Kr. Speaker, then Question Period, I submit to you, is going to be a sham. I know that is what the Premier wants. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, to order. MR. SPEAKER: this point of To the point of order, the hon . L1951 Kay 7, 1987 Vol XL the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, it is very strange and I think you should consider this in your ruling on the point of order that the han. gentleman asking the question is not complaining. MR. TULK: Never mind the han. complaining. gentleman PREMIER PECKFORD: It is not the han. gentleman who asked the question, who wants an answer, who is complaining. It happens to be another group who apparently are not interested in the answer. Kr. Speaker, let me submit this to you, because the

preamble and the question that the bon. member asked concerns a complex constitutional issue, this whole issue of the Innu and their role in Labrador, as they consider themselves a distinct society. I think it is very important for me, as the Premier and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs responsible for aboriginal rights, to make it quite clear to the bon. member so that he understands clearly where we are coming from on this particular issue. We are prepared to sit down with the Innu people. We have already sat down with the Inuit because they want to deal with us.

And I was just trying to make that clear, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am prepared to point of order. order raised - rule on that The point of Would the han. member please sit down? No. 37 Rl951

I am p~epa~ed to ~ule on that point of order raised by the hon. member for Fogo. There is no point of order. MR. LONG: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. the member for St. John's East. MR. LONG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would hope, after the discussion on the point of order, that the Premier would be prepared to table the document that he was reading from, according to House tradition. My final supplementary to the Premier, Mr.

Speaker, if he could be clear in reconciling what he has said, is this government's commitment to recognizing aboriginal rights as it relates to hunting? In all other jurisdictions of the country aboriginal rights are equated fundamentally with hunting rights. Now could the Premier clarify what he sees in this situation with the Innu people, their aboriginal rights with respect to hunting in this Province? PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I thank the bon. member for his question and I table the letter that I was reading from -if I can have a Page here to table it. MR. TULI<: Good idea! That is what you Ll952 May 7, 1987 Vol XL should have done in the first place. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well , I in tended to and I did so. There is no problem, Mr. Speaker, to table it. There is the letter. Now let me addres:s the supplementary. I do not think the hon. member ever involved himself in negotiations on something, and if that something, involved ten or fifteen items, wanted to negotiate one without looking at the other nine or fourteen.

In the issue of aboriginal rights, is it not fair for the Innu to sit down with us and the federal government and look at the whole b;sue of hunting, trapping and fishing, and their claims to a large part of Labrador, mineral rights, hydro rights, which could block the hydro development on the Lower Churchill, or share with us in its development, and self-government, and the issue of offshore resources, which they claim, as do the Innuit. So we cannot take one piece of. the puzzle of working out a negotiated land claim and say, "Yes, we will do this," and then go on to the nex·t one.

Negotiations mean give and take on the ten or fifteen items under discussion. But we are prepared to sit down with the Innu tomorrow morning and start on all of the issues and come up with a package which is acceptable to the!m and us and everybody else. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: No. 37 Rl952

I think I am ~ecognized. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance. Kr. Speaker, in answering questions just now the Minister of Finance seemed to indicate that he has not done any studies. Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms) contain himself? My question is for the Minister of Finance. It is reported, as the Minister of Finance is aware, by real estate associations in this country that the business transfer tax could increase the cost of housing to consumers from $1,000 up to $1,200 per unit.

Let me ask the minister, then, has the minister investigated the effect of such a move, this business transfer tax, on the construction industry in this Province? Is the minister not doing any of his own studies? Is the minister just taking the word of his counterpart, the Federal Minister of Finance, that everything is going to be hunky-dory with this? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the han. member comes up with an expression, business transfer tax. Now what does he mean by that? I am not certain what he means by it. It is just an expression.

The federal government has used that expression. I am not certain what they mean by it because they have not spelled it all out. We must know what they have in mind in regard to whether it is a BTT and, if so, what sort of a BTT? How inclusive it is, is it comprehensive, and so on and so forth? Are they going that way or L1953 Kay 7, 1987 Vol XL are they going some other way, another variant on value added tax? They are now talking about a national type of tax. So all these matters are still in the proposal stage.

We have done some studies ourselves already on the general question, but we obviously cannot do it on the specific question because we do not know what the specific proposal is yet.

But I can assure the han. member, once we get the details as to what the federal government specifically have in mind, the way they specifically would like to go, we will then look into that in great detail, both on the basis of the information they gave us and on the basis of the information we ourselves evolved, and then we will either accept, reject or we will give suggestions as for adjustment to it that we feel would be more appropriate for the situation. It is a premature question really to ask, have we done definitive studies?

We have not had a definitive proposal, so you can hardly do definitive studies until you get a definitive proposal. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: This must be the final supplement~ry as the time is almost up. A supplementary, the han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: One of the fears of Canadian commercial institutes, as the minister is aware, is that the interest earned on loans would be subject to this business transfer No. 37 R1953

tax as well. Let me ask the minister: What effect will that have on ·small businesses and the cost to the consumers on certain products, such as housing? Has the minister done any studies on this? If he has, will he table them? If he has not, will he do studies between now and June 18? MR. SIMMS: June 18 is no big deal. It is only a White Paper. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I think it is fair to say that when people think of a value added tax or a BTT, which is a variable of a value added tax, when they think of these types of taxes they tend to think of them as being all-inclusive. They tend to think that way. I think that is fair to say, and I think if you could look it up in the dictionary the dictionary is likely to say that that is that type of tax. But specifically, a specific tax, a specific BTT, is not necessarily like that. There can be all sorts of exemptions, there can be all sorts of variances, and so on and so forth.

The other thing to remember about it is that a person just does not pay BTT or VAT or RST or FST or wha.tever it is; he pays a range of taxes, and if you give him relief on one side you might have to pick up some of it, perhaps all of it for all I know, on the other side. But because you pick up some increased taxation in one area does not mean that he is going to be worse off because you may have given him as much relief or greater relief in another aspect. So the bottom line for him might be that he is better off. Ll954 May 7, 1987 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has elapsed.

Presenting Reports Q1 Standing and Special Committees MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader. the Government House MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, if a parHamentary secretary can make a statement on behalf of a minister, I presume a minister can make one on behalf of a parliamentary secretalt"y.

On behalf of the Chairman of the Resource Estimates Committee, the Commit tee reports to the House that said Committee· has ccmsidered the matters to it referred and passed without amendment items of expenditure under the headings Mines; Energy; Fisheries; Development and Tourism; Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development; Forest Resou1rces and Lands; and the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporatic1n. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. OTTENHEIMER: The effect of that is that this will be identified on the Order Paper and then may be called as one of the three Concurrence Debates.

Orders of the Day On motion, Amend The Act," read No. 37 a bill, "An Act To

Summary Pro,ceedings a third time, ordered R1954

' passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 1) On motion, Respecting Therapists," read ordered passed and on the Order Paper. a bill, "An Act Occupational a third time, its title be as (Bill No. 8) On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Prisons Act And The Uniformed Services Pensions Act," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 3) Continued debate on second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Development And Tourism Act. •• (Bill No. 4) MR. SPEAKER: Debate member Isle. was adjourned by the hon. for the Strait of Belle MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I want to have a few words on this tourism bill. My colleague for the Strait of Belle Isle has gone on a flight, or is going I think, and that is why he is not here. Mr. Speaker, in a Ministerial Statement earlier in the afternoon the Minister of Development, Responsible for Tourism, talked about the prospects for this Summer in tourism. I thought my colleague, the member for the Strait of Belle Isle, responded positively to that statement.

He complimented the minister on his advertising in · the States, and, of course, he talked about the need to do something with the Gulf, to L1955 Kay 7, 1987 Vol XL have it t~eated as an extension of the Trans-Canada Highway, in others words, have it treated as if it were a road thereby suggesting, Mr.

Speaker, that what should happen is that the fares on the Gulf ferry, the Caribou and any other Gulf ferries that may be operational there, not only between Port aux Basques and North Sydney but between Argentia and North Sydney, be dropped so that it would be more attractive to tourists who are travelling from the States or travelling from Western Canada to the East Coast, instead of turning their vehicles around and heading back across the country, missing our fair isle, once they get to North Sydney, they would, perhaps, take the plunge. Kr.

Speaker, another suggestion I would make along these same lines of encouraging tourists to come to this Province, I suppose, Kr. Speaker, everybody in this Legislature has driven across Newfoundland, for sure, and I dare say that most members of this Legislature have driven from North Sydney, say, to P.E.I. or North Sydney across Nova Scotia. I went across last Summer myself. I drove from Trinity Bay right up to Barrie, Ontario. MR. TOBIN: Did you? MR. CALLAN: Yes, and drove back, too. MR. TOBIN: Whose car? MR. CALLAN: In my father• s car. I would not take my own. I could not afford it on my salary.

I had to do it on his old age pension cheque. which was given to him by the No. 37 Rl955

forme[" Libe["al administt"ation in ottawa. But anyway, that is anothe[" matte[", M[". Speaket'", I do not want to get into that. I want to talk about tout"ism. Mt'". Speaket'", I am sut'"e that every member of this Legislature has either tt"avelled by car or pick-up camper Ot'" the mucky mucks in the Cabinet, I suppose, they pt'"obably gone by Winnebago or some other mot'"e expensive rubber-tired machine mode of tt'"ansport. My colleague, the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn), if I can just tell a little joke here, Mr. Speaker, was with me at St. George' s High, as was the member for Trinity -Bay de Verde (Mr.

Reid) two or three weeks ago when they had an all-day session out there. During lunch at the Lion's Club building in New Harbour, Dildo, Mr. Speaket'", we had a guest speaker there, and he talked about this Newfoundlander. It was not me. It could have been some other membet'" of the Legislature. Perhaps it was the member for Humber West (Mr. Baird),-I am not sure, but this Newfoundland was d["iving act'"oss Canada, driving up to Toronto actually, and was not vet'"y bt'"ight, so perhaps it was nobody in the Legislature. I do not know if it was or not. DR. COLLINS: I think I heard this one. MR.

CALLAN: Well, it can be dragged out and a dozen punch lines thrown in there. MR.' BAIRD: On a point of ot"der, Mr. Speaker. MR. CALLAN: Just after he got outside of New Brunswick, my point is this, Mr. Speaker, I am coming to it, he saw L1956 May 7, 1987 Vol XL a sign which t"ead 'Clean uvasht"ooms Ahead' and he cleaned twEmty-six, Mt'". Speaket'", befot'"e he got to Montt'"eal. What is wrong with that? Did I have any humour at all, Mr. Speaker?

He finally got to Toronto, by the way and came upon a sign which said 'Toronto Left', so he said to his buddy, 'Well, if Toronto has left, we might, as well turn around and go home again. ' But my point is this, Mr. Speaker, as you travel from North Sydney, say, - MR. BAIRD: What is your point? MR. CALLAN: My point is this that the number of signs along the highway advertising everything in the world - DR. COLLINS: (Inaudible) San Jose. MR. CALLAN: That is San Josie in out'" language. Everything in the world, Mr. Speaker, is adlvertised on signs along the highway.

Now, in this Province, and I remember the pt'"esent Leader 10f the Opposition, I say present because we had a past one, and we will have a future one in a month or so. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CALLAN: In a month or so we will have a future one. But, Mr. Speaker, the present Leader of the Opposition, I remember him, Mr. Speaker, the Premier may think that the first time the Leader of the Opposition's private park out in South Brook was brought up was when he brought it up over a court No. 37 R1956

case. That is not true. It has been brought up before here. What is the name of his private park? I just forget it. MR. BAIRD: Kona. MR. CALLAN: Kona Beach. I remember the Leader of the Opposition standing here in debate talking about the fact that he was not permitted under the laws of this Province, Mr. Speaker, to erect a sign anywhere on the highway. If it was in Nova Scotia or New Brunswick or P.E.I., you would see a sign at Port aux Basques, excellent vacationing and swimming or whatever at Kana Beach. It would talk about how far away Kona Beach is.

And, of course, then perhaps a 100 kilometers thence there would be another sign advertising it. I am just taking that one as an example. But I can see anybody, for example, the management of the Mount Peyton Motel in Grand Falls would be advertising their motel facilities. MR. BAIRD: Rigolet North. MR. CALLAN: I am not talking about road signs, Mr. Speaker, I am talking about signs that touris~s need to know that, okay, I am going to drive.

It is four o'clock in the .afternoon now and the youngsters are saying, "Dad, what time are we going to have supper?" Dad sees a sign up front and he says, "Okay, I just saw on a sign there that there is a private park up ahead, and my friend who visited Newfoundland last year tells me this is a nice park, a good park and it is good for children. That is where we will spend the night, and it is 128 kilometers ahead or Ll957 Kay 7, 1987 Vol XL 150 kilometers ahead which, of course, translated into time would be a couple of hours drive." So, he says, "We will be ready to camp in a couple of hours." Why is it, Mr.

Speaker, that we do not have any more road signs· along the highway? God knows there is lots of room for them and God knows it would be a bit of company, it would be something for somebody to do. Imagine, in Nova Scotia you are practically driving through a town or a little settlement all the time but in Newfoundland from the time you leave Port aux Basques until you get to - say where? - Corner Brook, there is nothing, only fog sometimes, but very little else. Why not have the road signs there? It would give people something to do to keep them awake.

At the same time, the people can be planning what they will be doing the next day once they get in Gander say or go out to Benton. AN HON. KEMBER: Bellevue Beach (inaudible). MR. CALLAN: Bellevue Beach. I can stand here for an hour, Kr. Speaker. I am glad that the minister mentioned Bellevue Beach. Mr. Speaker, last Summer Bellevue Beach celebrated an anniversary. Now, how many Cabinet ministers were there do you think? I was there when they had the fire works that night. Now, who put the park there? If you want to go asking questions, let me put some interrogative statements to you. Who put the park there?

Perhaps that is why it was low key. Bellevue Beach Park was the very first provincial park in all of Newfoundland. I am not sure how No. 37 R1957

many yeat"s ago, I think it was twenty-five. I will tell you that Bellevue Beach Pat"k was the fit"st pt"ovincial pat"k in this Pt"ovince. If I am wt"ong, I will be cot"t"ected. I stand to be cot"t"ected. MR. J. CARTER: You are wrong. MR. CALLAN: You will do it tomorrow when you have time to check? Mr. Speaker, the minister is trying to be helpful, I am sure, I am sure he is not heckling me. Mr. Speaker, Bellevue Beach Provincial Park, I am not sure how many years it celebrated last year -it must have been twenty-five? AN HON. MEMBER: It was twenty-five. MR. CALLAN: It was twenty-five. I know this, Mr.

Speaker, about Bellevue Beach Park that in the Summer of 1964, which is -what? -twenty-three years ago, it will be twenty-three this Summer, I worked as a student on Bellevue Beach Park. My second oldest daughter, who was a university student. this year, worked on Bellevue Beach Park last Summer after she graduated from high school. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CALLAN: Now, Mr Speaker, I am glad that the minister asked the question. Mr.

Speaker, I can tell you that when I worked on Bellevue Beach Park twenty-two and a half years ago, as a university student, there were people around my home Ll958 May 7, 1987 Vol XL town who wet"e saying that I had taken a job from their son or daughter, that their son or daughter should be working on Bellevue Beach Park, not mEL Now, I do not know how I managed to take the job. I knew n'othing about politicians. As far as coming to see my member and trying to get a job on Bellevue Beach Park, I did not even know what it was all about.

I had no involvement and no intE!rest in politics until I ran in 1976, but I remember voting for the bon. James Reid. When he ran as a candidate in 1972 in Trini.ty South district, I voted for the gentleman, but, Mr. Speaker, twenty-two and a half yt~ars ago when I worked on Bellevue Beach Park as a student, the people around my home town were saying that I had taken a job from their son or daughter. You know something, Mr.

Speaker, thinks have not changed much in twenty-two and a half years because when my daughter worked their last Summer people around my home down were saying the same thing, that my daughter took a job from somebody else, from their son or daughter. What foolishness! MR. TOBIN: She has as much right as anybody. MR. CALLAN: Well, I am glad that the member on the government benches agrees with me and all members on the government benches agree with me that my daughter has just as much right to a job, to go to work in the Summer as anyone else. Now, I hate saying this. MR. TOBIN: How did she get the job?

No. 37 Rl958

MR. CALLAN: I will tell you how she got the job. Some people think that I got the job for her. Nothing can be further from the truth. It is just as easy for someone to say to me that Uriah Strickland got the job for me twenty-two and a half years ago. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CALLAN: No, he did not. AN HON. MEMBER: Sure he did. MR. CALLAN: No, he did not. I was a university student at Memorial. I put in an application with Provincial Parks and I received a phone call or a letter telling me that I was accepted. But as far as lobbying with my member, I did not know the name of the game. MR. J.

CARTER: He knew you were Liberal. MR. CALLAN: Well , if I had any sense back in 1964, naturally I was a Liberal, naturally, whether I was young or old. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me make this point and I am sorry for being waylaid really, sidetracked. I did not want to get into this. But my daughter last Summer, how did she get the job? The Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews) gave her the job. Some people think that I got the job for her. Now, I do not want to say this but I have to say it. I know what I am doing.

I am attributing . motives to the Ll959 May 7, 1987 Vol XL minister but there is no question in my mind and I am sure there is no question in his, even though he will not stand and admit it, the reason that my daughter was given the job, not by me because I had no authority to give her anything, at least that job. I could have given her ten or twenty dollars when I got home. But the reason that the minister gave my daughter the job, as the minister will remember, as I do, we were involved at that time in the House of Assembly over terrible arguments in the Legislature about patronage jobs.

The Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young), who just poked his head in the door, of course was the culprit. He admitted on province-wide television that he favours his friends. So, the reason that my daughter was given that job on Bellevue Beach Park last Summer by the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth was to shut me up. Now, I am attributing motives. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. TOBIN: That is not true. MR.

CALLAN: The minister can stand and tell it the way it happened and he will tell you, Sir, unless he wants to lie about it, and I do not think the minister is going to - the minister will not lie about it, I will tell you - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I have stood in this Legislature before and I have said things that went on when the No. 37 Rl959

present member for Trinity--Bay de Verde (Mr. Reid), was the member for Trinity South, which used to go right around and take in Sunnyside. I have talked about the commitments to paved roads which were not fulfilled in 1974 and 1975; water and sewer for Sunnyside which was approved and then withdrawn and I challenge the present member for Trinity-Bay de Verde, if I am telling it wrong, stand up and correct me.

I say to the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde that if he has a story to tell about how my daughter got that job on Bellevue Beach Park last Summer, I wish he would tell it because I plead complete innocence and ignorance. The only reason that I can think of why my daughter got that job is because the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth gave her the job because then I would not be one of the Opposition members who could stand in my place and accuse the government of patronage because, right away, it would be chucked back to me. He would say, "What do you mean?

We -just gave your daughter a job so how can you accuse us of hiring all Tories when your own daughter was hired? .. Now, I mean the minister.just came into the Legislature, he can stand and respond. I am explaining, Mr. Speaker, for the 'benefit of the minister now - MR. MATTHEWS: Say it again. MR. CALLAN: -he probably will not hear me because the member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) is going up there to probably tell him some garbage to throw back at me. L1960 May 7, 1987 Vol XL MR. TOBIN: I will tell him what to throw back at you. MR. CALLAN: Throw back the truth.

If I am leaving out the truth or if I am misconstruing what happened - MR. TOBIN: He can give you ten names and you said, "My daughter (inaudible). MR. REID: Sure the minister is re!;ponsible for every one of these jobs going out. MR. CALLAN: I know that the minister is responsible. MR. REID: (Inaudible) recommended to the minister that your daug;hter be hired. MR. CALLAN: I know that. I am saying that the minister gave my daughter the job. I am saying that the minister gave my daughter the job. But, why did he give my daughter the job? MR. TOBIN: You just said why. MR. CALLAN: I am saying, Mr.

Speaker, the reason he gave my daughter-the job is because tha~ particular week in the legislature, Question Period - MR. MATTHEWS: That is unfair. MR. CALLAN: was abounding with questions, especially to the Minister of Public Works and Services (Mr. Young), about patronage appointments. I say to the No. 37 R1960

minister- that he could give my daughter- a job - HR. TOBIN: You say he gave your- daughter- a job to shut you up. HR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, how can I get a chance to stand here and tell my side of the story? The member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Reid) can stand in his place, as I am doing now, after I sit down he can stand in his place and he can give an half hour speech or whatever the time is he can do it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. REID: I can get up there for a month - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. FLIGHT: You are not allowed. MR.

CALL..AN: I am not talking trash. talking facts. MR. REID: You very seldom do. MR. CALL..AN: I am I am talking facts, I say to the member. The member does not stand on his feet often. As a matter of fact, I do know - MR. REID: It is a job to knock him off his feet though. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, fighting order the member and what L1961 May 7, 1987 is it in is Vol XL about, I do not know. The tt·uth hurts, I suppose, that is the only think I can think of. It is nothing that I am saying about him because I have not mentioned his name.

All I have said to him is if he wants to stand and tell another story, he can do it · and I will be glad to hear it. Perhaps the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews), who just came in the legislature, would like to stand and rebut what I have been saying. I do not think I have said anything wrong. MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, I will. MR. TOBIN: By leave? By leave? MR. CALLAN: I will finish in just a second. I was throwing out suggestions. Let me end on this, Kr. Speaker, because I have to go out to St. George • s High in New Harbour, Dildo, for a cadet inspection, and I have to leave early.

Is the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde (Mr. Reid) is going out to St. George's with me for the cadet inspection? I think it would be nice for us to be seen together out there. The cadet core covers both our districts. As a matter of fact, the Commanding Officer of that cadet core lives in Heart • s Delight. I called him two days ago in Heart's Delight and told him I had the invitation but did not have time to reply by mail, so I was just calling to tell him that I would be in St. George • s High on May 7, which is today, to participate in the annual Navy cadet inspection.

Perhaps I will see the member for Trinity - Bay de Verde out there. No. 37 R1961

Anyway, I was saying to the Minister of Development and Tourism that if that law has not been changed, the law which permits private entrepreneurs to put signs along the highway advertising that they have a tourist facility up ahead, whether it be a bed and breakfast facility, whether it be a private park like Kana Beach, whether it be a hotel or whatever, Mr. Speaker, it is terrible. I cannot sit down without saying this. The historic sites that we have in this Province which are not developed to half or quarter of their potential is terrible.

I was talking about the Trans-Canada Highway and tourist coming here by road and ferry. Mr. Speaker, what about tourists coming in here by plane loads? They go from Newfoundland with a population of 500,000 or 600,000 people, they go to Florida and Jamacia by the plane load, why not have tourists come in from Florida, New York, Boston, Alberta or British Columbia by the plane load? Perhaps because, Mr.

Speaker, private entrepreneurs are scared to take the plunge because they might get themselves in too deep and it might not work out and they may lose lots . of money, why does the government not spearhead some kind of experiment? Perhaps it should be tried again and perhaps it should be tried in a different way, where the proper advertising is done in the proper places on the mainland, not just to bring people in here and once they get off the plane at Torbay Airport to go their merry way, but to have it laid on.

"Here is your limousine taxi service that will take you to the hotel that you are supposed to stay in overnight, and at eight Ll962 May 7, 1987 Vol XL o'clock tomorrow morning eveeybody wi 11 board the bus because we are going out to Port de Grave district or we are going; out to Bellevue Beach Park and there will be a long liner there," '"'hich is chartered by that entrepreneur, whether it be private or government, "and we will go out cod fishing. Take along your oil skins because it could be foggy and it could be cold. Bring along a warm sweater." There are so many things, I think, Mr. Speaker - MR.

TOBIN: You are shocking. disgraceful. MR. MATTHEWS: You are How much longer does he have, Mr. Speaker? MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, you talk about the pot calling the kettle smut. I am disgraceful! That fat fellow, who sits behind the Premier, telling me that I am disgraceful, and I do not even know what he is talking about. Why does he not go and take his own seat, Mr. Speaker, and after I conclude, stand up and speak for half an hour. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the Minister of Toun:·ism and Development knows what I am getting at. These are the sorts of things that we will do.

If they are not done before we form the next government, then, of course, these are tQe s:orts of things we will be doing when we occupy our places on the opposite side of the Legislature. When is the election coming? I hear rumors that the Premier :is going to pull the plug in September. Is that correct? MR. TOBIN: June. No. 37 R1962

MR. CALLAN: Well, I heard it was going to be the first week in May, the election to be held before the last of May. I think it is a bit late for that. I was in Little Heart's East, down in Southwest Ar'm, last Saturday for another annual cadet inspection and I was talking to several Tories there who told me that there will be an announcement made by the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) about some road work for Hillview, Hatchet Cove, St. Jones Within, and also told me that there will not be an election in May now, but the election will be in September. MR. SIMMS: June 26. MR.

CALLAN: That is polling day, is it, or is that the writ? AN HON. MEMBER: Polling day. MR. CALLAN: That is polling day, June 26. Anyway, whenever it comes, Mr. Speaker, we will be ready. We will be ready and the Premier's popularity dropped from 61 per cent of the popular vote - MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, member for Fogo. MR. TULK: the bon. the I am sitting here reading something and I am, at the same time, trying to listen to the member for Bellevue. What I hear coming from that side of the House, you would have to dead not Ll963 Kay 7, 1987 Vol XL to hear the noise.

I cannot hea[' the han. gentleman. So I would ask Your Honour if he would pay some attention to them, and if they cannot behave themselves in here, flick them out. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. The bon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, in conclusion, I say to the minister that whenever the election comes, we are ready.

If the sort of programmes that we have talked about over the last couple of years are not implemented, whether it relates to Tourism or Fisheries or other primary or secondary or any other kind of industry in this Province, then, of course, we, in the Liberal Party, who will be occupying the other side of the House, will be glad to bring about these policies and let a ray of light shine on this Province, make the people happy and smiling once again, something that they have not done, Mr. Speaker, for about fifteen years now. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. MATTHEWS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A point o_f Minister of and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: order, the bon. the Culture, Recreation Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I feel compelled to rise on a point of order, because of remarks made by the bon. member for Bellevue, as it pertains to his daughter getting a job in a park No. 37 R1963

in his district. I think he indicated in his statement that the only reason his daughter was given employment was to shut him up. So I want to go on record in the House of Assembly, as, first of all, saying, being the type of person that I am, generous, honest and compassionate, that I feel that because any person in this Province, because they are a daughter or a son of an MHA or a politician, should be given equal opportunity for employment, whether it be in parks or in the fish plants or anywhere.

The bon. member approached me on two or three occasions outside of this Chamber and made representation on behalf of his daughter. MR. CALLAN: And other people. MR. MATTHEWS: Consequently, there being only one position in the park at that particular time, his daughter did get the job. I could not see why his daughter should be -penalized because she happens to be his daughter any more than mine should be penalized because she is my daughter.

Of course, being in politics, sometimes .people do not look at it that way because somehow they think. that members of this House have barrels of money and consequently their children or their brothers or their sisters should not get jobs and so on. I just want to go on record as saying that and to clarify for the House that certainly the reason, Mr. Speaker, was not to shut the bon. member up, that certainly was not my intention. I just figured that - MR. TOBIN: He lobbied for it. Ll964 May 7, 1987 Vol XL MR.

MATTHEWS: I mean, bon. members make representations for different people in their distdcts,. whether they be students or adults and so on. MR. TOBIN: Did he make representations ·for his daughter? MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, he sure did. Just to be fair about it, Mr. SpeakE~r, his daughter was given a job along with I guess a couple of c>ur other students in the Province. I just wanted to go on reeord as clarifying that that it ~~ertainly was not any motive on my part to shut the bon. member up or any other bon. member. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR.

SPEAKER: Further to that point of order, the bon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Very briefly, Mr. Speaker. The minister will admit he nodded his head as I said it while' he was speaking that I mentiom~d other names when I mentioned my daughter's name.

The minister will also remember, as I 1:-emember, and anybody who wants to c~heck the record will remember, that there was only one position open on that park, it was vacated by a female from the year before and obviously a female, you know, WE! talked about it here in the Lei~islature today, with equal representation by males and females in parks, that is the why my daughter got the job among other reasons because she was replacin~~ a girl who had finished there ·the year before. No. 37 R1964

MR. MATTHEWS: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Further to that point of order, the bon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: To be very fair about it, I understand that as a consequence of his daughter finding employment in the respective park the hon. gentleman did get some political flack and fall out as a result. I really think that what he is doing now is being a little unfair to me as minister because really he is trying to turn the whole thing around now and say that the only reason I put his daughter in the park was to shut him up.

I think that is really unfair. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is a difference of opinion between two bon. members. If the bon. minister speaks now he will close the debate. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Development and To~rism. MR. BARRETT: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Although this amendment to adjust the organization of my department was meant to be a housekeeping issue, obviously from the tenor of questions and observations - MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Ll965 May 7, 1987 Vol XL Order, please!

A point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentle~an, I am sure, and I am sure the Speaker did not see the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford), but as I understand he was standing to speak in the debate when the minister rose. Of course if the minister is allowed to continue to speak, that closes the debate. It has to be dealt with and perhaps the easiest way to deal with it is for the Minister of Development and Tourism to say yes, he will, by leave, allow the member for Port de Grave to speak. MR. BARRETT: To that point of order, Kr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development and Tourism. MR. BARRETT: I would be more than pleased to grant leave to the hon. gentleman. MR. TULK: We will, of course, let him come back. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. member for Fogo is correct and leave is granted to the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Thank you. I am beginning to wonder today if I am being discriminated against. Every time I stand up somebody is sitting me down. I want an opportunity to speak to No. 37 Rl965

this particular bill because I think it is a very important bill. I think tourism, next to our fishery, has one of the greatest potentials of our future resources and a way in which Newfoundland is going to increase its job potential and increase the revenue that is so badly needed in this Province. Tourism is a department that I do not think anybody or any political party is going take very lightly.

I made a reference a while ago speaking to a group out in Carbonear, and we came to an agreement that Tourism is like a time bomb ready to explode, but it is only going to explode into the area that is needed if the fuse is lit. I do not think the present government itself is taking a serious enough look at lighting that fuse in tourism development in this Province because, if it was, we would not be as far behind the other provinces and the rest of the world as we are.

Tourism in this Province is absolutely amazing if you just sit down and bring together a few ideas of how it could be developed and what it needs to be. The minister is right in asking for more assistants in his department, because right now the Department of Development and Tourism is two departments in one and possibly there is a need for more people in the Tourism Division.

While there probably is that need, there is a greater need for government to stop concentrating on spending money within the administration itself and start encouraging the private sector -this is what I think has to be done for tourism in Newfoundland -to put their investments and their business ideas into the development of L1966 May 7, 1987 Vol XL tourism. We do not e:x:pect the tens of thousands of people we encourage to come into the Province, especially bec!ause of our weather. With the Summers we have, we are not going to get very many people. So there has to be greater encouragement give:n them.

Some of the members on this side, and I am sure some of the~ members on that side, talk about the potential of making the Gulf an extension of the Trans-Canada highway. That is an important thing. That sort of thing would encourage people to come he['e. But once people come to the Province, they have to have something to do, they hav4~ to have something to see.

If you get aboard a plane or a car or any vehicle and you go to PEI or you go to any other prc:>vince in Canada, or you go outside Canada, you go to the United Stat:es, when you visit a particular area there are lots of things for, number one, your children to do, number two, for teenagers to do, and number three, for parents to do. An example, PEI: There are all kinds of restaurants, all kinds of motels, and this sea1;on, in particular, this time of year, there is lobste[' and lobster boils, if you enjoy the fish, and all kinds of playground areas where you can take your children at any time.

All this has been put there by the private sector, encouraged by the governllllent, and they are making a profit. Here we are with one of the greatest natural attractibns. Around our shores are beautiful little harboU['S, beautiful little coastline communities which right now have absolutely no potential for creating jobs, and all need do is encourage the p['ivate sector to No. 37 R1966

move in and open them up as tourist attractions. Mr. Speaker, while I am on my feet I have to make a complaint. It is very, very difficult to speak when there is nobody listening, but when we have fifteen or twenty people sitting around, all huddled into little groups, it is even more difficult. Mr. Speaker, I am going to sit down until somebody calls order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I cannot order the hon. members to listen, but I can order them to be quiet. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Go out to your common room, if you are not interested in what is good for the future of Newfoundland, and chat out there. Now, Mr. Speaker, to get back to what we were talking about. I do not want to keep this debate going too long because I know the minister wants the opportunity to clue it up. But we have here, as I was saying, in the small communities on this Island, opportunities - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Could we have silence? MR. EFFORD: Absolutely children. down. unbelievable! School Tell the class to sit Mr.

Speaker, I just want to touch Ll967 May 7, 1987 Vol XL on a couple of other points. That is one of the areas I touched on, utilizing communities where there is no potential right now for jobs and people are complaining about the ten weeks syndrome, and the Social Services development areas. We could take some of that money that is being put into those programmes and use it to develop tourism in certain communities, and we could encourage the private sector to get involved in those particular areas, as well.

People in those communi ties would be employed running games, boat rides and all the other things that appeal to tourists instead working on those ten week jobs. The tourist season probably would start in Newfoundland as early as in other provinces, but it could start in June and possibly go on until August or September. We do have fairly good weather during that particular time and people could avail of boat rides. It has been proven even in St. John's, out in Petty Harbour, that this is a very profitable venture.

By bringing. in more tourists, business in our motels and hotels and our restaurants would increase. Then there are the gas stations, the garages and the grocery stores. Everybody would enjoy a better economy and a bigger turnover in their particular business. When that happens, then more people are hired in the private sector. This is an area to which the present administration and the Department of Tourism has to pay a lot more attention, to creating permanent jobs. When I spoke here yesterday, I spoke on a different bill and I spoke about the fishery and the potential that has for creating long term jobs.

The same goes for the Department of Tourism. No. 37 Rl967

We encour-age people to come her-e, and that is fine. Ther-e are boat rides and cod jigging and so on for the adults, but we have to also look at the something for children. People coming here from Ontario, Toronto or wherever, whether they are former Newfoundlanders coming home for a visit or people from that province coming to visit this Province, most of them bring their children. Again refeerring to our weather, you do not bring children here to get suntans. But there has to be a reason for people to bring their children here, so we have to look at areas around the Coastline, not only our parks.

Most people who come back to visit the Province do not stay in the parks, most of them stay with their families or their friends or in areas around the Coast where they can see exactly what we are doing around the Coast. That is what visitors like to see and we have to do something to encourage those people to stay longer. In my district we get a tremendous number of tourists who -visit the area, but they only visit for a short time -one day, probably two days, and then they are gone. What are you going to do to encourage them to spend their dollars? Because that is what we want.

When tourists come to the Province, we want to get the most money from them we possibly can. That is government's idea, that is private business' idea, that is everybody's idea. You need those dollars to boost up the economy and to boost the tax base in this Province. So we have to give incentive, we have to reasons to stay in the period of time. When South for a vacation, Ll968 May 7, 1987 them an give them area for a I go down I stay for Vol XL two weeks and I pr-etty \-ilell stay in the one area. When pe,ople come out to the Port de Grave district, they stay for one day and they are gone.

So that is an area government has to look at. The potential for tourism is there. I am sure our minister r~eco.gnizes this and he is doing an ~excellent job in starting it off, but more attention has to be paid to encouraging the private sector, the businessman, to invest: more of his dollars in tourism than he has in the past. The privat.e sector is where the greatest number of ideas and dollars have to come from. Mr. Speaker, I do not want to go on too much longer with this but there are a couple of arE!as there that I would like to hear the minister comment on in his closing remarks.

Tourism, as we all know and we all agree, has the potential, if developed in the right way, to do much for our future. We just cannot imagine the kinds of dollars iLt could bring into the Province. I would like to hear the minister, in his closing statement, co~nent on things we could do to ~~ncourage the private sector, mor~~so than the government, to actually go out and say, 'Look, here is $1,000, build a playground. Here is $5,000, put a boat in this particular area.' Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: If the minister closes the debate. MR. BARRETT: Thank you.

No. 37 speaks now he Rl968

I started to say in the aborted attempt to close the debate, that this is basically a housekeeping piece of legislation, an amendment to the act to acconunodate an increasing demand for the highest level of professional capability within the department, because the department is a growth centre for government, to introduce at this point in time something that was asking for an acconunodation for one Assistant Deputy Minister because of a reorganization that acconunodates today's situation within the department structure.

It made good conunon-sense to try and be a little bit forward-thinking in how we treat and address this kind of situation in legislation, and to do that we used what would normally be a conunon-sense approach to things if one were in the private sector - hopefully we can learn something within government - that we have the authority, not me personally but in consultation with my collegues, to do the adjustments within the structure, within the administration without every time having to run back to the House of Assembly for acconunodation. I mean, the House of Assembly is not sitting 365 days a year.

You have to be responsive, you have to be timely, and the only way you can acconunodate that is to have some flexibility within the structuring of the legislation under which the department acts. There is nothing subversive about any of this.

The accommodation for senior civil servants' positions within the department as might have been suggested or alluded to by some bon. members opposite as being some kind of a plum that one gives out to acconunodate some gratuitous accommodation for political Ll969 Kay 7, 1987 Vol XL reasons, is certainly anything but the truth and I would defy any member opposite to make that kind of an accusation or conunent concerning any senior person in my department. I would like to review very briefly the wide-ranging form that this particular debate took during the past number of days.

The Leader of the Opposition, the member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) started off, and I do not know how he got the equation or the relevancy, but a good part of the tenor of his comments dealt with Cabinet size. Now, where that fit in relation to what we were trying to do with the restructuring of the department from an administration perspective, I cannot quite grasp. I have been lost somewhere in the shuffle. He got on· to talking about some of the arrangements that have been between government and Kr. Peter Lougheed from Alberta.

Now, what the relevancy of that was to my department and the attempts to reorganize and restructure and accommodate an assistant deputy minister or two left me wondering a little bit, as well. He talked about Green Papers and White Papers, neither one of which we were instrumental in 'introducing. One of the things I would suggest that might have some relevancy is that there was a comment that maybe there should be more ministers for this particular department because of its wide-ranging responsibility. But really, there was very little of substance.

I think the only one, of all the people who spoke in the debate, who spoke with any kind of eloquence or awareness of what was happening within the department No. 37 Rl969

was my colleague, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), who stood up and, from the words of wisdom with which he so eloqently expressed himself, had a reasonalby good appreciation of the importance and the thrust of this department. The member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) commented about the size of the public service. Now, that is a rather wide generalization, but when you look in isolation to a specific department of government, or the structuring of a specific department of government for very good common sense reasons, the relevancy of that has some concerns.

He spent some time on the development of historic sites, and I think he probably had some political message he wanted to get out, because the site development and restoration at Red Bay obviously is of great concern to the member. He mentioned Cupids and Brigus and a few other places around the Province. Unfortunately, or fortunately, whichever one way to take it, this department of government has no responsibility or no funding mechanism to achieve any restoration of historic sites. There is a department of government that has that function, Culture, Recreation and Youth.

The relevancy to 'this department and the employees in it, again have been lost. The member for St. Barbe (Mr. Furey) started talking about the extension of the bureaucracy, but got lost and swallowed up in the irrelevancy of his comments because he started talking about hospitals and schools; he started talking about the fish plant in Port au Choix and the water supply system to it and, again, the Ll970 Kay 7, 1987 Vol XL relevancy of that to my department was certainly not there. He talked about the overseas missions and the participation of this department in overseas missions.

If there is anything that this department of gove'rnment has done that should be h1~ld up as a model to this and any other government, it is its encouragement of the private sector to become very much aware and keyed into the opportunities that are going to be presenting themselves as a result of the offshore oil exploration and production.

If at any time in our history we need to know more and as much as we can about opportunity development, investment opportunities, the identification of people with the expertise, with the ability to transfer technology for the benefit of this Province, the people of this Province and the employment potential of this Province, it would certainly be one of the landmark models for anybody' s examination, this trade mission concept ~hat this department has initiated over the past two years into the North Sea sector.

As a matter of fact, next week we are leading another mission, twenty-one engineering companies in this Province represenlt.ed on a mission into Holland, into Norway and the UK. I_ make no apologies. The success stories resulting from this particular initiative are numerous, very numerous. Significant business arrangements have been made and identification of partnerships have been made all because of this t)~e of inititative - significant! Extremely worthwhile! frle have never recommended to anybody to invest one dollar in new plants or No. 37 Rl970

equipment, but we have always advocated it is a learning experience, an opportunity to identify, be prepared! The scout motto is very appropriate, 'Be Prepared.' The member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter) talked about the public service, the senior bureaucracy of our Province, of our government as if he were a school boy, the only person on the opposite side who had any experience as being a minister, who should have known and recognized the contribution that senior public servants in his department could yield.

The man was a minister for several years in a previous administration and yet could not grasp the significance of having good, highly qualified, highly motivated professionalism in the senior ranks of the bureaucracy and to try and accommodate that through the reorganization of a department. He talked about bureaucratic red tape.

He was actually critical of this department's rejection of an application from somebody in his constituency, because we did not permit the construction or the rehabilitation of an establishment for tourist purposes, which was turned down because they would not adhere to a very basic and fundamental princ~ple concerning the toilets in the facility. He complained about NLDC and said, well, we have heard the Throne Speech, we have seen the budget , we have heard all of this.nonsense about one-stop shopping. What is NLDC doing he asks?

From my copious notes let me give the hon. members opposite a little information on NLDC. Since April 1, one month, NLDC has received significant applications from all over this Province to the extent Ll971 May 7, 1987 Vol XL that if every application is approved, over 50 per cent of the total funds allocated would be already drawn down and a provision of over 600 jobs would have been created, full-time, year-around, permanent jobs. In one month, from the date it was first initiated through the Throne Speech, and he asked what NLDC were doing. Where does the member have his head stuck?

He is certainly not aware of what is happening in this Province. Since April 1, 265 enquiries. Every single one of them responded to. Mr. Speaker, the hon. member opposite initiating those comments, obviously leaves a lot to be desired. The member for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward): Very serious concerns and comments concerning the proposed Sea Cadet base for Atlantic Canada. I commend him for bringing it to the attention of the House. The more we can bring it to the attention of the House and the attention of the people making those decisions, the more benefit it will be to the Province. I commend him for it.

I have supported it. My department has supported it. Every one of my colleagues have supported it. We have made representation to the federal Minister Responsible for Defence. We have made representation to the bon. John Crosbie, whom we supported. We have done everything we can to promote the establishment of that Sea Cadet base in Stephenville. He talks about the Harmon Corporation. In a very negative fashion he talks about the Harmon Corporation. That Corporation was put in place to administer and help develop an industrial complex No. 37 R1971

af tet" the void that was left when the Amet"ican fot"ces moved out. I think that over that period of time they have done a very commendable job that Harmon Corporation, made up, I might say, mostly of citizens of the area. They have disposed of most of the assets. They have encouraged new investment. They have encouraged new business into the area and created new employment as a result. That was their mandate and, as far as I am concerned, they have achieved most of their mandate. He asks the question, 'Now what?' Well, as we do every year, we evaluate that corporation and other corporations.

That evaluation process is ongoing. He talked about West Viking Industries. Hopefully, there will be something there. MR. EFFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the -han. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I have been listening to the bon. Minister of Development and Tourism in great anticipation of hearing something about what he is going to do with tourism for 1987 and 1988, and into the future.

What he has done is spend ten minutes talking about the Leader of the Opposition, and now my colleague from Stephenville, talking about the irrelevancy of what they had spoken about. You are doing the same thing. It has nothing to do with tourism. If the minister is making his closing remarks, we would at least like to hear of something encout"aging he is Ll972 May 7, 1987 Vol XL planning to do over the next year . DR. COLLINS: To that point of order, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Finance. DR.

COLLINS: The hon. members opposite, all the Liberals over there are not paying the proper attention to my bon. ft"iend Ot" they would get many gems of infoLmation. All those Libet"als ovet" there, right in front of me, they should be paying attention to the bon. minil::ter. MR. TULK: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaket". MR. SPEAKER: Further to that point of order, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: I have been sitting here listening with great anticipation to what the Minister of Development was saying.

I am looking foLWard, as my friend ft"om Port de Grave said, to hearing him say something that is essentially going to lead to the development of the tout"ism industry in the Province. I have come to one conclusic1n, Mr. Speaker, as a result of listening to him, and that is that the real problem is not with what the minister says, the real pt"oblem is that he actually believes what he says. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. The bon. the Minister of Development and Tourism. No. 37 Rl972

MR. BARRETT: Rather than respond to the point of order, I will do it as part of my rebuttal in the closing of this debate. If I had stood up here at this point and not responded to what was raised by the hon. members opposite in a systematic way, they would be critical of that - I had ignored the concerns they have raised. I was not critical of the member for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward). When I said I was critical, I was critical of the person I spoke to before that, the member for Twillingate (Mr. W. Carter).

I commended the member for Stephenville on bringing to the attention of the House as often as he can, and not only to the attention of the House, but everywhere he can be heard, the advantage of having a sea cadet base in Stephenville. MR. TULK: What have you done? MR. BARRETT: I also said what I did. You said you were listening intently. You did not hear anything. The West Viking Industry, as far as I am concerned, is one of the gems of opportunity that has presented itself to Western Newfoundland, and their proposed and anticipated involvement in off~hore.

Where it has been said before that it is all going to accrue to St. John's or it is all going to accrue to some part of Placentia Bay, here is an international company, with a great reputation, prequalified for this type of work throughout the entire international construction community, who, on their own, without any pushing from me but with some encouragement, I may say, from my colleague from Port aux Basques (Mr.

Mitchell) and the Town L1973 May 7, 1987 Vol XL Council of Port aux Basques, and the Harmon Corporation and the Town Council of Stephenville, agreed to establish a major construction facility in Port aux Basques and have already signed an agreement with the Trades C_ollege in Stephenville with respect to providing ongoing instruction and job creation programmes for the people of that centre. The member talking appointments that to ministers, somewhat out for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) about patronage and the relevancy of assistant deputy again leaves me in left field.

I do not know of any political appointment, or appointment for political purposes, to the high position in my department of assistant deputy minister and I would defy them to make any connection. It just does not exist. There was some reference to the development officer that we are employing to pay specific and personal- attention to Buchans. Criticism, criticism of a man with a great deal of experience, awareness and understanding, to be assigned specifically by my department, through the Gander regional office, to pay particular attention to the plight of the people of Buchans.

They had one last shot at being a viable community in this Province and he helped ~chieve that last opportunity in a very significant fashion, as did officials of my department, as do a great many other people, and I commend the attitude of Abitibi-Price and ASARCO for their initiative and their attempts to put in place something that would fill the void that was left because the ore ran out. That initiative is very significant and I commend that No. 37 R1973

particular person. The fact that he was a previous colleague really has nothing to do with his capability to perform this particular function, because he has done it well. He has done it well, and I make no apologies for him either. The member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Gilbert): "The only people who were going to get loans are those who know somebody. " What utter nonsense! Utter nonsense! The tourism industry is not developed. Great opportunity! Do members opposite care to listen? The Tourism Development Subsidy agreement has created an investment in this Province -listen the numbers -of $41,191,074.

Now, do those numbers sort of rattle any change? Does that suggest to you that this department's initiatives in the tourism creation activities and initiatives from the private sector is working? It sure as heck answers a resounding yes to me, when we can get private sector participation and investment of over $41 million. Let me just extrapolate a couple of examples for the bon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush) who does not happen to be in his seat at the moment: Last year $433,000, a private sector initiative in tourism in his area, in new development. The bon. the member for Burgeo -Bay d • Espoir (Mr.

Gilbert) who is talking about all the patronage, $422,000. Gander, the bon. the member for Gander (Mr. Baker), who is now running to be leader of the party, the eighth one or the ninth, I am not sure which, $3,522,000 in his district, a Liberal district, private sector investment encouraged by this department. Port de Grave $82,000. L1974 May 7, 1987 Vol XL MR. WARREN: He does not want it. Take it back, 'Hal'. I will take it. MR. BARRETT: If the member would just bear with me for a moment, these are public. MR. EFFORD: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, the minister over there is pointing very cl1early to the amount of grants to the private sector, and he is leaving the impression, or at least some of his colleagues are getting the impression, that I am knocking the fact that $82,000 went to the Port de Grave district. When I spoke for twenty or twenty-five minutes or whatever, I did not criticize the minister or talk about patronage, I was encoura@;ing him to have more money spent by the private sector to increase tourism development all over Newfoundland. MR.

SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is no point of order. The bon. the Minist.er of Development and Tourism. MR. BARRETT: For matter of clarification, I was not critical of the bon. member's comments or his observations. When I spoke critically, and the reason I am introduc;ing this, is in response to a criticism made by his colleague, the member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Gilbert). The two recipients of the investment opportunities are Mackinson•s Lodge and The Brigus Historial Society. No. 37 Rl974

St. Bat"be whet"e is the membet" for St. Barbe (Mr. Furey)? $979,000. The initiative that has come from that district and associated districts in that area on the Viking Trail - I have to allude to some corrunents and some criticisms from one of the other members over there, and I will come to it when I get along here. Oh, yes, the member for the Strait of Belle Isle criticized tourist associations, he did not want them to be closed shops. We have no feature in our application process which asks a proponent whether he is a member, subscribes to, or is part of any association. None whatsoever! Absolutely none! Mr.

Speaker, I am reminded that I have to get on with this because my time is running short. Let me carry on. Tourist associations in this Province are one of the most significant benefits to tourism in this Province, no question about it. They have brought together people with common interests all over this Province. The Bonavista Tourism Association: I was out, just two nights ago, in the district of the member for Bellevue, helping to organize a Southwest Arm subcommittee of that tourist association.

There was a resounding turnout of people with a dedicated interest in tourism for that particular part of the district, and somebody over there has the audacity to criticize that kind of an activity by the people of this Province, totally uninitiated. It was initiated by the people who live in those areas, where it should be, that is where the strength of it is, and to suggest otherwise, as far as I Ll975 Kay 7, 1987 Vol XL am concerned, is criminal. I have others: Maybe I can deal with the member for Port de Grave. He happens to be one of the ones who ask questions in the House.

He agreed with th~ need for further assistance within the department. I give him credit for that, for having an understanding and appreciation of just how much activity there is associated with this and other initiatives of the department, which I will get to in a few minutes. He spoke about the need for job creation initiatives Why do we not apply some funding? I would like to suggest to the member that we already have. My colleague, the Minister of CUlture, Recreation and Youth (Mr.

Matthews), in accommodation of a request that I have made, and my other colleague, the hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies, has agreed to fund significantly the cost of further exploration activity in Red Bay, as an example. That is just one example that I can provide .. Tourism in Newfoundland today is responsible for the creation of 10,000 permanent jobs in this Province, notwithstanding the casual employees that are hired for the peak season. It is worth in real dollars to the economy of this Province $250 million a year.

It is one of the highest contributors to the economy of this Province, but that is not all: I would like to suggest that in this past year the Tourism Development Subsidiary Agreement contributed directly to the creation of 500 new jobs. The Ocean Industries Development Agreement, which my department is responsible for administering, created 190 new jobs. The Marketing Assistance Programme, No. 37 Rl975

which is again administered by this department, helped create 209 permanent jobs in this Province. Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation have already this year been responsible for the creation of 16 7 new, permanent jobs. This year 1,066 new jobs created -Research and Development initiatives, which my department is responsible for in this Province. It is amazing! People just do not realize how extensive the R and D community is becoming in this Province.

Around that center of excellence which we have been helping to create and establish, the Institute of Marine Dynamics, Memorial University and the Marine Institute, 250 new jobs in that sector alone. A significant benefit to this Province. The estimated number of jobs that have been maintained as a result of these initiatives, is another 2,000 jobs. This year alone, 3300 jobs. Mr. Speaker, need I go on? It is hardly appropriate to try to respond in some fashion to some of the observations that were made opposite, critical of this department and to the man, to the person.

If they would care to get Hansard - I asked for it, but it has not been taken off the tape yet -of the Estimates Committee that dealt with my department earlier this week, when these estimates were approved by the entire committee in less than three hours and every single person - I will not say what they said about me, because if it is too complimentary I will be embarrassed, but what they said about the officials of my department, and the complimentary way in which they treated the officials of my department, to the person, and the need for further Ll976 Kay 7, 1987 Vol XL personnel to accon®odate its mandate - I wish I could have read it here.

It would have been an embarrassment to some, anCl others, with maybe the stature of my friend from Port de Grave, would have admitted to it. MR. EFFORD: I was not there. MR. BARRETT: He was not even there. This is significant, being in the House of Assembly and being critiLcal and being in an Estimates Committee and being totally supporthre. KR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. minister's time i~; up. KR. BARRETT: I move seconding reading.

On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Development And Tourism Act," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 4) MR. SPEAKER: At this time I would like to read the three questions for the Late Show. All of them are addressed to the Minister of Finance. "I am not satisfied with the answer given by the Kinlster of Finance on the tax reform concerning consumers." That is from the hon. the member for Port de Grave.

"I am not satisfied with the answer given to me by the Minister of Finance concerning the federal minister's tax reform." That is by the hon. member for Fogo. "I am not satisfied with the No. 37 Rl976

response to my question on refonn." That is from the member for Bonavista North. tax hon. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting The Return Of The Business Of Fishery Products International Limited To Private Investors." (Bill No. 34) MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

On behalf of my colleagues in government I am delighted this afternoon to have a few minutes, and hopefully more tomorrow, to expand on this bill No. 34, "An Act Respecting The Return Of Fishery Products International To Private Investors." I would suspect, Mr. Speaker, that there would be very few people in this House who were here at the time the original restructuring bill was passed, in 1983. I suspect there would have been few of us at the time.

There would probably have been equally as few within the Province who would have suspected that in a matter of three and a half qr four years we would be back here in the Legislature repealing a number of the sections of the Fisheries Restructuring Act of 1983 because the company, which was set up by that act and the agreement which that act incorporated, had been successfully returned to the private sector. I do not expect, Mr. Speaker, that many of us would have dreamed in our wildest dreams that that would have happened as quickly as it did happen.

But it ha~ happened and it has happened L1977 May 7, 1987 Vol XL very successfully, Mr. Speaker. Consequently, ,we are here today with this bill to amend a number of the clauses the original which no longer the activities FPI. and provisions of Restructuring Act has any bearing on of the privatized Now, there are many, many clauses in the original Restructuring Act of 1983 that are on the books and will stay on the books as the law of the land and under which, by the provisions of Bill No. 34, even the privatized FPI will still be bound.

I will over the next day or so hopefully go through those provisions in detail, Mr. Speaker, and point out the changes this particular Bill will bring to the original Restructuring Agreement and also be pointing out the clauses of the original Restructuring Agreement that remain in effect for the protection of the deep sea fishery in this Province. MR. TULK: You are talking remaining clauses. MR. RIDEOUT: about The remaining clauses, yes. t