VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, MARCH 26, 1980 NO. 18

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 642 SD - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. J. MORGAN: inform the House that - MR. S. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER : olR. J. roRGAN: Hear, hear. Mr. Speaker, I wish today to Do we get a copy? Oh, oh. Order, please! -the operational review that has been ongoing of the Fisheries Loan Board is now nearing completion.

I would like to inform the House of Assembly on the activities of the Fisheries Loan Board for ~~e past three mo~ths, since I became the Minister of L~e Department of Fisheries, and L~e plans for the coming month of April. Since the beginning of Janua~f of this year, 1980, the Fisheries Loan Board has been involved in an interim loans programme whereby the 9oard has financed various engine and equipment loans and financed the construction of a number of wooden fishing vessels in the range of forty-five to sixty-five feet.

These activities are in accordance with the government's announcement made in December of 1979 that there will he no interruption in the provision of funds for loans to the fishermen to purchase engines and equipment in order to enable these fishermen to operate next fishing season, in other words, this coming fishing season. Funds are also allocated to ensure there will be no interruption in the Province's plans for the construction of the inshore and midshore fishing fleets in the Province.

To he eligible for this vessel financing programme, fishermen had to be qualified for the federal government's subsidy and agree to various other items. And after dealing with 1692

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 642 SD - 2 MR. J. MORGAN: all the applications on file, I repeat, all applications on file with the Loan Board for vessels and for new vessels in the range of forty-five to sixty-five feet, it was determined that there were only twenty-eight fishermen eligible for assistance to construct one of these vessels. And the Fisheries Loan Board dealt with all of these qualified applications and approved a total of eighteen loans for construction of eighteen vessels in the range of forty-five to sixty-five feet under this vessel construction programme.

These eighteen vessels are now being built or have commenced construction in various shipyards ?.round the Province~ in fact, a total of eleven shipyards are involved. That is important, Mr. Speaker, as well because the shipyards were short of work in the Fall of 1979 and short of work as of the last two or three weeks and at least eleven of the shipyards in the Province now have one of these vessels, in some cases two of these vessels. The total value of these eighteen loans approved in the past three months amcunts to $4.3 million.

At the present time the report on the Fisheries Loan Board has been made by a 3pecial committee appointed by government. That report is now finalized and is made to government. ~e report, of course, is an overall review of 1693

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 643 EL - l MR. J. MORGAN: the operations of the Fisheries Loan Board and is now in the hands of the provincial Cabinet and the Planning and Priorities Committee. This report focuses on all aspects of the future operations of the Fisheries Loan Board, including the arrangements with the chartered banks and therefore I feel, Mr. Speaker, it is improtant that it be given . a very thorough review. And also it is important to be reviewed in ccnsultation with the Fishermen's Union.

And yesterday afternoon I met for approximately three hours with the Fishermen's Union executive board as the beginning of that consultation process before we put these new guidelines and policies and new eligibility criteria in place, a full consultation with the Fishermen's Onion which is speaking on behalf of the fishermen of the Province. So in this regard, the next two or three weeks I will be holding discussions with the Fishermen's Union to discuss particular items in the report and to get the opinions of the onion before the final plan is put in place.

And in the meantime, ! have also asked the Fishermen's Union to recommend to me at least the names of two fishermen - we are looking at possibly three, but at least two - recommend to me the names of fishermen whom we can appoint to the Fisheries Loan Board. Also, in the meantime, we are holding discussions with the F~~eral Government concerning fishing vessel assistance policy. There is now established a Federal-Provincial committee consisting of senior staff in Mr.

LeBlanc's department and the senior staff of the provincial department and they are looking at and reviewing the overall porgram of fishing vessel assistance and policy fer the future. ~nd that is ongoing now and it now seems 1694

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 643 EL - 2 MR. J. MO;(GAN: it will be finalized in the month of April. So, Mr. ~~eaker, while this is on­ going and until the 1980 ~isheries budg~t is approved for new funds to the Loan Board, the operations of the Fisheries Loan Board will continue on an interim loans basis until the new funds are allocated from this year's budget, and until the estimates are approved in the House of Assembly here. And the Loan Board will be processing as many applications as possible-and I want to repeat that - as many applications as possible.

However, giving priority to those app­ lications from fishermen who are eligible and who need new equipment, new engines and new boats and which we consider to be hardship cases, to give these priority and in the meantime to process as many as possible of applications on file on the interim basis until new funds are put forward from this year's financial allocation and from this year's fisheries budget. So, Mr. Speaker, these are the present situations of the Loan Board and an outline of what took place the last three months. And I will say before I sit down, Mr.

Speaker, I have made a decision that I am now inclined to agree with certain members of the House that all information, all inform­ ation pertaining to the Loans Board - this is my policy as minister for the future-that all information regarding loans made and how they were made and who they were made to, 1 59 5

~arch 26, 1980 Tape No. 644 ow - 1 MR. J. MORGAN: who received the loans and the amounts of the loans, all information. There i5 no secrecy in the Loan Board in the future and any information regarding the past performance will also be made available. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. J. MORGAN: When? Order, please! In fact, I have answers today which I will later on give to questions asked yesterday in connection with the operations of the Board last year.

And it is ny policy that no information will be held back in con­ nection with the operation of the Loan Board because I am determined as minister to make sure the Loan Board in the future is carried on in a businesslike manner. Thank you,Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bonavista North. )o!R. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of my colleague who is the spokesman on fisheries ,I would like to respond to the non-statement.

It has been traditional and I would like ~o know whether the ministe~ in this no secrecy mood that he is talking about,aid h~ intend to provide us with a copy in advance as is the custom? was it just ready? Was it an oversight or MR. J. MORGAN: MR. s. NEARY: before that. MR. J. MORGAN: MR. s. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: I just arrived from out of town (inaudiblei It was on your desk twenty minutes I was working. That is unusual. Order, please! MR. L. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, the statement is a non-statement and it may be a non-statement because he has to get approval from the Premier because that is essentia}lY a 1696

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 644 ow - 2 MR. L. STIR LING: repeat of the Premier 's st at e- ment which he gave in this House in October 1979 and that is that the prio .rity woul<i be to buil.d, I think the Premier said twenty boats.rn the comments made by the minister 1 he was very careful to say that were only twenty-eight eligible appiications in the forty-five to sixty-five foot class. He did not tell us how many people were not deemed eligible be- cause of what factors, and then eighteen out of the twenty- eight -which. happens to tie in to the same fiCJures that the Premier announced last Fall, October 1979.

He mentions a special committee report.l would pre~ume that this minist~r has said that ;re9ardless of what happened in the past he is going to make a ne~ clean look, a new approach in this House, Mr. Speaker, an attempt that seven years of the Tory Party was a t·ration - MR. S. NEARY : Corrupt. And we are seeing to not only say, previous adminis- MR . L. S':'IRLI NG : - we are now sa ying th at wit hi n t ~i s administrat ion we are not respons ible for anyth ing th at was done by a 9r evious minis ter , 16 97

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 645 NM - 1 MR. STIRLING: that all they have to do is change ministers and this minister can come in and make a statement - MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Order, please! A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the han. Minister Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. In my statement I gave no indication of any wrongdoing by my predecessor. I merely said I would make all information available from the past. That is all I said. MR. NEARY: SOME HON. ~~ERS: MR. SPEAKER: Well,make it available. What are you waiting for? Hear, hear!

To the point of order, ! believe it is fair to say that there was not a particular point of order but the minister has taken the opportunity to clarify remarks that may have been attributed to him. The hen. member for Bonavista North. NR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Now I think that is indicative. I think if you will check Hansard you will find that the minister said, "I now agree with members from the other side that all of this information should be made available.

And I, as a minister, will say that this is now going to be - regardless of what happened in the past I am inclined to give you all that information." And now having sat down for two or three minutes and thought about it for two or three minutes, he wants to change that statement. Now, Mr. Speaker, we now have a special committee report ana this is an indication - MR. MORGAN: Where is the Fisheries spokesman over there? AN HON. MEMBER: He is not here. 1698

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 645 N~! - 2 MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, the minister in tabling his report said that a special committee had been working since last Fall, and it is typical of the way that this government seems to be approaching this whole business of the House of Assembly. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): That is right. An insult to the House of Assembly - Order, please! Order, please! The han. member is beginning to drift into the area of debate. I would remind him he has about half of the time that the minister had in presenting his statement and it is now reaching that time.

I would invite him to clue up his remarks. MR. STIRLING: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: ,.u<._ Sl'IRLING: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: grantEd. MR. STIRLING: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I presume - By leave, Mr. Speaker. By leave? - I presume that the Minister of Fisheries - No. I understand leave has not been I presume that the Minister of Fisheries will table that special committee report. He is going to discuss it with the Fishermen's Union: What about the representatives of the fishermen who were elected in this House of Assembly to ~epresent fishermen? AN HON. MEMBER: Look out (inaudible). MR.

STIRLING: I presume it will be tabled. And, Mr. Speaker, in commenting on the very subtle change, the very subtle change sort of slipped in, that sort of said they are now asking for two fishermen, two fishermen. In other words, it was a board on which fishermen used to control the board, all fishermen; they are now talking about reducing that from eight fishermen, the entire board, down to two fishermen, and that is a complete change of policy and it 1689

0. March 26,1980 Tape No. 646 AH-1 MR. STIRLING: is a cowardly way to do it, by a Ministerial Statement where he does not give us a copy of it in advance. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! I would ask the han. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling) to withdraw the term 'cowardly'. It has been termed unparliamentary in the past. MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I withdraw the term 'cowardly'. It does not show the greatest of bravery and courage to present it in the manner in which it has been presented and I would conclude, Mr.

Speaker, by taking the minister at his word that he will give us the opportunity to examine that special committee report, that he will go iri and table all of the information on all.of the loans, who they were given to,and that we will look forward to with this minister,for as long as he lasts,as a clean new look in the Fisheri~, Department. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, near! ORAL QUESTIONS ~1R.SPEAKER: The han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) re the strike by Red Cross workers, and specifically I wonder if the minister can inform the House as to what is holding up negotiations, what are the matters or what is the matter of dispute,and what steps the minister has taken to bring both sides back to the bargaining table in an attempt to resolve the strike? MR. SPEJI.KER: MR. DINN: The han. Minister of Labour and Manpower. Mr.

Speaker, about two weeks ago the Deputy Minister of Labour and Manpower, the Director of the Labour Division,and the conciliation officer for some days got both sides together in an attempt to get the people back to work and get the problems resolved with respect to the strike. That situation continued for four to five days and at the end of that period of time there appeared to be no break in the negotiations, that both sides were at logge~heads . I would not want to 1 7 0 0

.. ~!arc~ 26,1980 Tape :>~o. 646 l\H-2 X."t.. DI:-IN : indicate what the icems were that the ~ferences cen~ered around or all of the it .ems . The fact: of the matt:er is we have a conciliation officer still who is ready,,.,;..lling and able to sit down •.o~ith any of the sides if dtere is any indication at: all that there may be a change.

Sasically wh~t happens in t:hese negatiat:ions is when you get at loggerh eads , when you find nothing ·giving from either side,thac you break off negotiations and I bel iev e that is the situation right: now . ! think they are due to get back togeth er sometime early ne xt week again and at that time I hope to have a further report, or t will be able to let the hon . members certainly know and the general public lc.now,but right now it is in a situation where it: is an 1 7 01

March 26, 1980 Tape 647 EC - 1 MR. J. DINN: economic battle, where the union wants certain things and the employer does not want to give certain things away. And it is a very unfortunate situation because it seems to me, having read the latest report of the conciliation officer, that they are really not that far apart and there should be a resolution to the problem. MR. T. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the member There has been some suggestion, Mr.

Speaker, that,as a result of the strike, there is a shortage of blood in some of our hospitals. I wonder if the minister can comment on this particular situation whether there is, indeed, a depletion of blood in the hospitals here in St. John's in particular,and whether there has really been a reduction,since the strike,in the number of blood donors? Just what is the situation? Is it a serious situation? Is it an acute situation? Just what is the situation in this respect? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, I would suspect that rrry colleague, the hon. the Minister of Health (Mr. W. Housel would be more on top of that situation, as I know he would on a day-to-day basis. There have been times over the period ~~t there were indications that there may be a shortage develop if certain things did not happen, but I am not aware of an acute shortage anywhere in any of the hospitals or I have not been informed lately that there is a shortage. But I am sure my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Health,would have more on it and would be able to elaborate on it. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. W.

HOUSE : Mr. Speaker, the department is, I think, in daily contact with the Red Cross and with the hospitals with regard to 1702

!·!a::ch 2o , 1980 Tape 647 EC - 2 lol.'l.. W. !i:OUSE : this, and we have not been asked to take any extraordinary measures. But there is no lllistake about it, there is a little bit of a crisis, there is a problem. We saw over the weekend a cry c:ollling out from one of the hospitals, for instance, throuqh the churches to ask people to go, therefore, to give blood, go directly, I think, to the hospitals.

I have been advised there has not been any surgery delayed any appreciable SlDOunt, although in one case I was advised, in one particular case where a particular operation that required an excessive amount of blood, it was deferred until the situation got cleared tip somewhat. So from our point of "View there is no major crisis, but the situation is not very comfortable. MR. T. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): member for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the bon. the If I may have two Jllinutes to clear it up, Mr.

Speaker, since it relates to this shortage of blood; Does the lllinister have any contingency plans in the e•-ent that this stri.ke continues? There certainly can be an aCU.te shortage of blood and it can create a very serious problem in this Province. Does the minister have any contingency plans in mind that he is going to bring into acti.on. 1703

March 26 , 1980 Tape No. 648 so - l MR. SPEAKER ( Siroms) : The hen. Minister of Health. MR. W. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I think that one of the kinds of continger.cies is to make public appeals and there was last week a public appeal,And of course outside of St. John's, generally speaking, particularly in the smaller communities, it is direct donors anyway and if that happens I think the hospitals do have lists of people who they can contact.

So there is a contingency plan in that respect,that they go directly to donors. and it is the kind of thing, I think, that, you know, when you make your appeal you will get the response. MR. T. LUSH: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I indicated a final supplementary the last time but nobody else is standing. The hen. member. MR. T. LUSH: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. To the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. J.

Dinn), the Throne Speech of 1978 said that it was the intention of the government to reassess the effects of strikes in the Public Service and to introduce legislation to alleviate some of the serious repercussions which such strikes inevitably cause. I am just wondering- what has happened to this announced intention of the government, whether they plan action in this particular Assembly or what , since they announced it in l977 1 or is it a matter like the blueprint now-that that is discarded with since it was some plan of the previous government? Just what is the situation on this particular announcement? MR.

G. FLIGHT: He does not know. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, we are always reviewing possible improvements to legislation. With respect to our labour legislation here in the Province, it is probably the best legislation in the country and probably the best legislation in the western world. The fact of the matter is - 1 7 0 4

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 648 so - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS.: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, ,please! MR. J. DINN: - with respect to that particular situation,that is being discussed actively right noW within the department and it will not be too lonq from now that r will be making some proposals to government with respect to cnanqes. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Windsor - Buchans. HR. G. I?LIGB'l': Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the bon. Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer).

I wonder if the minister would inform the Hous.e - sometime ago, a year ago,the Justice Department made a decision that a correctional centre was required in Central Newfoundland, a decision that they would establish a correctional centre. Would the minister indicate as to whether or not a site has been chosen for that correctional centre at this time? MR. SPEAKER: MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr.

Speaker, no, a number of sites have been examined and studied in Central Newfoundland; no final decision with respect to the site has been made. r would anticipate such a final decision will be made in approximately a two month perio.d of time. MR. G. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 1 7 0 5

March 26, 1980 MR. SPEAKER(Simms): for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Tape No. 649 DW - 1 A supplementary, the hon. member Since it was obviously necessary to have a correctional Oentre in Central Newfoundland,and that is obvious from the minister's answer, would the minister indicate to the House just what the criteria is for the choosing of this centre, just what the department is looking for in the various towns? I know they have talked about Bot­ wood, Bishop's Falls, Grand Falls, Windsor:just what is the criteria that will decide in which of those towns the cor­ rectional centre will be established? MR.

SPEAKER: MR. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, essentially the criteria would be sufficient services being there to keep costs minimal, an appropriate situation from the point of view of services, from the point of view of accessibility from various qther matters, largely of a planning or engi­ neering or architectural standpoint. These are essentially it once the general geographic area has been located,and that has, a5 Central Newfoundland. MR. G. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A final supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans,followed by the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. G. FIGHT: Mr. Speaker, all the criteria that the minister has indicated .exist in every town that has been mentioned as a possible site for that correctional centre. So I wonder i! .the minister~wo~ld indicate what the position of the various towns up until now has been? Botwood, Bishop's Falls. Grand Falls, Windsor-are they all po5itive, are they all prepared to accept the centre,a~~ so indicated to the Justice Department and are waiting for a decision?

Just what has been the reaction from the various towns we are looking at? And this is my last supplementary,would the minister indicate what this correctional centre is going to cost the Province? 1706

March 26, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Tape No. 649 DW - 2 The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. ~peaker, to the best of my knowledge as of current date each of the areas being looked at,the official local government is in favour of it. There wa~ one town in whteh they were notfor allegedly were not; but I understand the position has changed, it was based on either a misunderstanding of what specifically the correctional centre was going to be.

So at present all of the communities which are among the possible ones are to the best of my knowledge the co~rectional centre would be wel­ comed there and I am base my knowledge of that, or my opinion of that, from the official spokesmen being the municipal councils obviously not a personal head count. The cost is envisioned at around - it obviously has to go to taader; frequently these come in much more; very infrequently they come in less than what one envisions-but it would be hoped that it would be approximately $400,000. ~tR. G. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

The hon. member for LaPoile wishes to yield for a final supplementary to the hen. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: The minister indicated that all of the towns that had been approached up until now had indicated a positive desire to have that correctional institution estab- lished in their community. I would like to ask the minister if he' has received official recognition from the four town councils concerned, to this date, that they indeed- he indi­ cated that no there was a town that did not want it but then re-considered and has now indicated they do want it.

And I would ask the minister if at this point in time there is official notification to the minister that that particular town - 1707

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 650 EL - 1 MR. G. FLIGHT: he knows which town I am referring to~has indeed accepted the proposal and does indeed want the correct ional institution~established in that town? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, whether there is a - actually I got back into St. John's from Grand Falls, attending the inauguration of the new Bishop there, a couple of hours ago and I have not gone through my mail. I was told ,·.ectually, when I was there by the mayor that either he had written me to that effect.

I have not gone through my mail, I do not really know. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. S. NEARY: The hen. the Member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, this seems to be the Minister of Justice's·day in the sun.

Could the minister tell the House if he has yet received the - and I referred to this yesterday, and the Minister of Finance referred me to the hen. ge~tleman,whc was out of town- - but the Mahoney Royal Commission J:Jf Inquiry into wrongdoing in the Department of Public Works, has the miaister received that report yet~ If not,would the minister indicate, beacuse this seems to be on the go quite a long time, when that report will be in the hands of the Department of Justice? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, no,I have not received the report.

In a conversation with Mr. Justice Mahoney fairly re­ cently, within the past couple of weeks or so, I did understand from him that within - I want to quote him as accurately as I can - within a period of approximately three months 1 and he may have said two to three or same such thing,but within a period of approximately three months or it may have been two to three, I am not sure, that he would expect to have it in. 170B

March 26, 1980 MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : for LaPoile. MR.S. NEARY: Tape No. 650 EL - 2 A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Member It goes without saying that the report will be made public, I assume, when the hon. gentleman receives it, but could the hon. minister tell the House how many Royal Commissions of Inquiry and how many police investi~ations are now ongoing, and how many have been concluded into the Moores', administration,into the final days and the activities of various ministers and various de­ partments of government?

How many police investigations are still ongoing and how many have been completed? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure that there are any Royal Commission Investigations or Royal Commission Inquiries or police investigations into what the hon. gentleman alleges as or quotes as the "last days of the Moores' administration". There are no investigations into that specific topic. With respect to how many Royal Commissions are presently operating, I really have to ask some­ body to inform me.

I think there are around five or so, but I am not really sure. I know to the best of my knowledge that none have been appointed since I have been Minister of Justice and ~at is correct. There have not been any. So there have not been any to date. How many there are ongoing, I would really have to check~ It is a numerical thing and I do not wa~t to give the wrong information. It is not a question of opinion, it is a question of fact. You know, there are several. I really cannot say how many. there would be no way"' knowing them Police investigations? Of_ course, Police_ investigations go on without my 1 7 0 9

!'larch 26 , 1980 Tape No. 650 &L - 3 ·MR. NEARY: What about the Linerboard one? MR. G. OTTENHEIMER: - or start without flrJ knowing them and frequently will start without anybo~y in the Department of Justice knowing them. MR. S. NEARY: MR. OT'l'ENHEIMER: a question. Is the Li.nerboard t;~ne completed? I will wait until the hon. gentleman asks MR.. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ~- SPEAKER (Simms) The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. s. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentlelllail knows what I am driving at, Sir.

I am talking mainly about th _e investigation into the wrongdoing involved in Labrador Linerboard - secret commissions. The EGR,ET, the BeJ:l!IUda Triangle, Would the bon. gentleman tell us if that case is yet complete, is the report in the hands of t;he minister or is the aase still ongoing? MR. SPEAKER: : The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. G. OTTEWEIMER: Mr. Speaker, the Department of Justice was informed approximately 1 71 0

-"- March 26,1980 Tape No. 651 AH-1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: ten days ago, give or take a few days, that the police enquiry has concluded and in the department's examination of the enquiry there was no evidence for any prosecution, That police investigation did conclude approximately a week or ten days ago. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary. A final supplementary. The han. member MR.

NEARY: Would the han. gentleman tell us if his department has been asked for advice or have taken it upon themselves to look into an account in Hamburg, Germany that belongs to the people of this Province, the Labrador Linerboard - the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) knows what I am talking about, it is in the name of a company called Schurfeld in Hamburg, Germany, $2.5 million in taxpayers' money that has never been recovered? Has the minister been asked for any advice on that or has the government taken ~ny action to try to recover this money? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Speaker, I think I would have to take that as notice. I am not aware of any work the department is currently doing or has been doing with with respect to an account in Hamburg, Germany but I would take it as notice. It could be that this was made before I became minister and has not come to my attention,so it would be preferable for me to take it as notice. MR. SPEAKER: MR. JAMIESON: The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, this is really a related question to the han. the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) and it is something ~hat I suspect disturbs him as much as it does me.

Had it not been for the question from the han. member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary),for example,and this is the second occasion now on which this has happened,there does not appear to be any means through which the public is made aware that a police investigation has been completed and that in this case and in a previous case there was not adequate evidence on which to proceed. The 1 711

March 26 ,198 0 Tape No . 651 AH-2 MR. J!\.'ll.ESON: unfortunate part of the~ is that the kno~ledge is usually fairly general that there is a police investigation unden.'ay and very frequent .ly people are under a cloud as a result of that. !:las the hon. minister any technique or is t.;,ere a method •.thereby indeed once there is public knowledge that someone is being investigated,no action occurs after the fact and that person or persons are still in the public 's mind under some kind of suspicion which the police investigation has eliminated?

Is there a technique and does he agree that there is a flaw here in this system? MR . SPEAKER (Simms): l'lR . OTTENHEL'!ER: The hon . 11inister of Justice . Mr . Speaker, I certainlY . see that there is a flaw or a difficulty.

I am not sure what the an swe r is because as the hon . gentleman is aware there will be many police inves~igations which would start, come to an end,of which none of us would eva~ know, ! ~~uld not even know, and it could well be that nobody L"l the Department of .Justi ce would Jt.now. a.ut the specific area here is where it has become pub lic knowledge 4nd usually throuq h a political forum, in a legislative :orum, usually through that. In a sense I am thinking out loud here, one could ce rtainly t:hink that where police investigations have ended 1 71 2

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 652 NM- 1 MR. OTTENHEI:-!ER: and there are no prosecutio~s following, obviously the file is closed , that one would make a st:atemem: eo chat: effect. Then, of course, where no seatement is ~4de, you know, people would in!er, it could be inferred it was still ongoing and, you know, I see the problem, I am not sure how to solve it:.

Because you could get yourself into a position whereby all other people or organizations which have become through the political process, knowledge that there was a police investigation on and no statem .ent was said that: it was over, then one would be directing attendon there and to what extent: that could prejudice an investigation . I certainly realize the problem. I am not sure of its solution but I wil~ give it some thought and discuss it: wic..'l s0111e people who may well have some views on its solution. :offi . NEARY: Ml::.

Speaker, could I ask the hon . genele .man one more question in connection - !4R . S?::AKER (Sim:ns): A supplemencary, the hon . ~ember for Lapoile. :·IR. ~l:': - with the Ber.nuda situat:ion, tile secret: commissions. Do I understand che hon . gent:J.eman to say thac there 'NaS insufficient: evidence, or did t:he police, because of che ineernacional complications, could they noc go any furt:her ·11ith che case? Did they reach a dead end and chey could not really complece ~~eir investigation? Is that: the sicuation or was there insufficient evidence co lay cha rges? 1-IR . SPEAKER : The hon. Miniscer of Juscice.

HR. OTTSNiiEIMER: Well, !-lr. Speaker, the police conducted the enquiry and chey can only do whac is in thel.r 20wer co do , and on che basis of cheir enquiry, of their investigation, came to che decision that there was nothing furcher that they could do, and the inv esc igacion ended, and the l.nvescigacion does not give grou~ds for prosecut:ion. ! cannot be more speci!ic . MR. NEARY: It was never :'inished . 1713

March 26, 1990 Tape No. 652 N~l - 2 MR . OTTENHEIMER: Well, the file is closed. It is completed. I suppose in anything of additional or new information comes to light , I 111ean obviously that th .en is not a continuation , I suppos .e that is really a new enquiry then if there is new additional information. But the situation here is that the inv~stigation was undertaken by the RCMP. It is completed. A..-ld on the basis of that t.'tere are no grounds !or prosecution of any individual or organization. *-.q_ . SPEAKER {Simms ): ~.R. RIDEOUT: The hon. member for Saie Verte -White 3ay. ~r.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Lands and Forests. The minister I am sure is aware that back in November there was a task force appointed to look into the ve..-y serious employment situation in the Roddickton area . I ur.derstand that the task force has reported . I wonder if the minister could tell the House what the status of the report ~s at the moment, when we might expect to ~ able to have a pub lic view of the document so that people in the area, ar.d others concerned, might be able to study the coctll:lent and see what it contains? 1 71 4

March 26, 1980 Tape 653 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. C. POWER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, last Fall there was a task force organized and announced publicly by my colleague and my predecessor, the now Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan), because we were extremely concerned as a government with the unemployment problems in Main Brook-"Roddickton area. That task force report has been presented to government.

It is presently being studied by Resource and Social Policies Committees of Cabinet and we hope to deal with it as a full Cabinet very briefly and for it to be announced to the public very shortly. MR. T. RIDEOUT: MR. SPEAKER: for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR. T. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the member I thank the minister for his answer, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder, without tying . him down too much, if the minister could indicate publicly when he might be in a position to table the report in the Hous~, .as I would hope it would be his intention to table the report so that we could all have a look at it~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. C. POWER: Mr. Speaker, again as in my earlier answer, the report will be tabled in the House as soon as Cabinet has a full briefing on the Roddickton Task Force Report which is now presently being done, and I expect it will be in a matter of weeks as opposed to a matter of months. MR. J. HODDER: MR.

SPEAKER: Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: on the report. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the member for I am going to ask a different question Mr. Speaker, I was wondering if the minister could tell me what the criteria is for setting up a task force to look at high unemployment in an area? I represent an area which has from 70 per cent to 80 per cent unemployment in the Wintertime and from 40 per cent to 50 per cent unemployment in the summertime. I was wondering if the ~inister would appoint a task force or have a task force appointed as well to look at that 1 71 5

March 26, 1980 MR. J. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (SiJmns) : Forests. MR. C. POWER: Tape 653 EC - 2 particular area of the Province? The hon. the Minister of Lands and Mr. Speaker, again, the Task Force in the Roddickton - Main Brook area was organized because of the extremely high unemployment in the Main Brook - Roddickton area and also because of, certainly, their very strong background in the forestry area. It was done through the Department of Lands and Forests because of those reasons.

Again, we sincerely hope, as a government, that in the area the member just spoke about where now there is extremely high unemployment,that that situation will be somewhat alleviated with the opening of the mill in Stephenville very shortly, and again, we hope that there will be no need for a task force report in that given area. MR. J. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North (Mr. L. Stirling), unless he wishes to yield for a supplementary. MR. L. STIRLING: MR. SPEJ\l<ER: a supplementary. MR. J. HODDER: I will yield, Mr. Speaker.

The han. the member for Port au Port, In listening to the minister's answer, I might put this to the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan) because the Port au Port area of the Province has a high unemployment problem which was there while Labrador Linerboard Limited was operating; and that same figure·was there in 1975 where we had specific statistics. And I would put a question, perhaps, to the Minister of Fisheries. We know we are not a forestry area, but could the minister, perhaps, support a task force to look at the unemployment there from a fishery point of view?

Or perhaps if the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Barry) were here, we could talk about some of the mineral resources we have which are not being utilized. MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. MORGAN: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, I recognize the hon. gentleman's concern in that area, and in fact it is only a few days ago 1 71 6

March 26, 1980 Tape 653 EC - 3 MR. J. MORGAN : that we approved a licence for the National Sea Company and also a - MR. J. HODDER: (Inaudible) • MR. J. MORGAN: - the hon. gentleman does not want information regarding his district? MR. FLIGHT: Sit down! (inaudible) about unemployment. you are talking about · (inaudible) MR. J. MORGAN: It is going to help the unemployment situation. You asked about - you know, if you are against the idea of us doing something to create jobs in your district, I will sit down. If you want information, I will give you the information.

The situation is there is high unemployment in the hon. gentleman's district and with the help of my colleague, my good friend from Stephenville (Mr. F. Stagg) the last few months - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms} : Order, please! MR. J. MORGAN: - with his help, we did make every effort to alleviate the problem on the Port au Port Peninsula.

And through the effort of my colleague and friend from Stephenville and his representations, we did get some achievements through National Sea whereby we are now arranging a lease situation - which is going to be a long-term lease, a ten year lease on facilities in Piccadilly which will mean a substantial development in _the fisheries i~ the hon. qentleman's district. MR. HODDER; SOME HON • MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. J. 1'10~1\!<T : built by National Sea - jobs in this area. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: Port au Port. MR. J. HODDER: You are misleading the House. Oh, oh! Order, please.

There is going to be a major processing plant Nickersons, which will mean a substantial number of A supple~~~entary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary 1 the hon. the member for Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister one question on the whole statement which he used to try to put himself in a good light. The question is - and it is something that I have 1 71 7

March 26, 1980 Tape 653 EC - 4 MR. J. HOPDE!R: talked about wi tl). your predecessor and have talked to you about, for crying out loud. MR. J. MORGAN: (inaudible) very much. MR. J. HODDER: This National. Sea thing that you are trYing to let the public: of New.foundlancl know is a great effort by your depart­ ment - and I: woul.cl l~ to, as a precmlble to the question, say that National Sea hils been operating there for some years but beoause they have not been able to get together with the government in order to work out the land that they were on, al.l the government has presently done now 1 71 8

:-!=ch 26, 1980 Tape No. 654 NM - 1 1-'.R . HODDER: is co cell th .em that they have a lease which they did not lrnow they had. How many more jobs will that provide in an area thac has from seventy to eighty per cenc unemployment? MR. SPEAKER {Simms) : !o!R . HODDER : ~!R. SPE.~i<ER: MR . MORGAN: The hon . Minister of Fisheries. More than were there before. Order, please! Mr. speaker, as of last we ·e.lc I sat down with !'Iicker son 's and I had an approximately four hour discussion with National Sea and Nic .kerson' s, '"'hich is now all in one company in our Province.

And that company has invesced S25 million in the last eighteen monchs in our Prov ince , in the fishery development, mainly i!l che processing sec cor. MR. HODDER: In Port au ?ort? MR. !·!ORGAN : And we discussed what their plans are for t:..'le Port au Pore general area. And they are not merely goinq co get a lease from us without us knowing wh at they are going to do wich thac lease. If we are giving them a long-term lease, t-tr . Speaker - MR. HODDER: MR . SPEAKER: !'IR . MORGAN: tihat are you going to do? What are you doing?

Order , please! - and they decided they are going to invest a substantial amount of money, in fact millions of dollars over the next year or so in Piccadilly, to put a major processing facilicy in chat area, which will mean a markec for the fishermen and an increase in the fishermen catching in the harvesting sector, and a maJor number of jobs in che processing end . MR. !-!ODDER: They would have done it last year if they could have gotcen che lease. SO.'IE SON . ME.'I.BE .RS : Hear, hear! 1719

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 654 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member fo~ Bonavista North. We have time for one quick question. MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. One quick question for the Minister of Fisheries. How many meetings were held by the Fisheries Loan Board between July and October? MR. JAMIESON: 1979. MR. STIRLING: Yes, 1979. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. minister for asking the question because I had intended to answer the question he asked yesterday, .the same question, in the Answers to Questions.

And I want to clarify a situation that has been somewhat misconceived ~~at fishermen were fired from the Fisheries Loan Board because I have here the Minute-in-Council, which is an Order of Council, of Cabinet, which appoints the fishermen that were on the Fisheries Loan Board in '79, they were appointed July 1st., 1978 for a one year period and the term was to terminate the 1st. day of July 1979, which was last Summer. So the fishermen,when they were appointed to the Fisheries Loan Board 1knew they were appointed for a one year term. They were told this by the minister at the time and by the Chairman, Mr.

George,at the time. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: - MR. SPEAKER: (Inaudible). Now when they - Order, please! Order, please! - when they were appointed for a one year - Order, please! Order, please! I am sorry, Mr. Speaker. The time for Oral Questions has expired. By leave. By leave. Well,I have not said what I am about to say yet. The time for Oral Questions has expired. Is there leave for the minister to complete his answer? SOME HON. MEMBERS : By leave. 1720

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 654 NM - 3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): By leave. The han. Minister of Lands and Forests. Unfortunately today is Private Members' Day and four o'clock a Private Member's motion must be put so there may not be time for Answers to Questions. to answer the question. MR. MORGAN: under Answers to Questions. MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER: ·MR. MORGAN: The hon. minister by leave has leave Or I could answer it in the other

section There may not be time. By leave. By leave, the han. Minister of Fisheries. Yes, Mr. Speaker, I want to clarify that because they were appointed for one year and the fishermen who were appointed, there is no reflection, and I want to make it quite clear, by the present officials in the Loan Board and the Department of Fisheries or anybody else who was there in the past, no reflection on the work carried out by these fishermen, none whatsoever . Now the question is, how many meetings were held from that period? Mr.

Speaker, what happened was when their period or term expired the 1st. of July, the Chairman of the Board asked the fishermen to carry on after the 1st. of July, so that question, the technical question of whether or not they were supposed to be there or not was overlooked. They carried on making loans. So from the 1st. of July to the time the Chairman resigned, and Chairman Mr.

George resigned as Chairman of the Loan Board in August, 1979, effective the end of August, so from the 1st. of July to the end of August there were a total - there were two board meetings held, two Fishery Loan Board meetings held involving the fishermen, despite the fact their time had expired the 1st. of July; the mefttings were held on August 6th., and on August 30th. On the August 6th. meeting there were forty-four loans dealt with by the Board, 1 7 21

~larch 26 , 1980 Tape No . 654 NN - 4 t-IR . r-mRG .""'I: and on August 30th . there were fifty loans dealt with by ch& Board. MR . NEARY: MR . ~(ORGAN: Did they have a quorum? And this total of ninecy -four ~oans were two meetings after ~,e time of the expiration of the fishermen and •the ·n, of course, ~.!r. George resigned, there were no more meetings held by the Loans Board until the situation was brought to light by the deparonent to Cabinec, that the re was no more money left in the Loan Soard, and then the Cabinet appoint.ed an interim board . The interim board - MR . NEARY: !1R . MORGAN : ·MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): t·IR. MORGAN: flo w many - The interim board consisted of Mr . Order, please ·! - Mr. Speaker , consisted of - I had ~~e not es but ! lost them now - I am sorry. Consisted of - well the inte rim board did consist of civil servants, but not all of them Fisheries . For example .we had the Federal Fisheries man responsible for bo~~ties, federal bounties on boats - ;..N HON . ~!EMBER: Parrott . MR. MORGAN: - ~!r . Parrott was o~;t the board . We had the Assistant Deputy Hinister of the Depart:nent of Industrial Development on the Board . 1722

March 26,1980 Tape No. 655 AH-1 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Eric Wells was seconded from the Department of Finance and a man from Treasury Board and 1of course,a man from the provincial Department of Fisheries. So if you say civil service that is right. The Interim Board consists of civil servants , but as I mentioned earlier the fishermen were not fired from the board, their time expired and fishermen will be appointed to the board on the basis of consultation with the Fishermen's Union and the Fishermen's Union will recommend to us fishermen, to a point, but they will have representation on the board. MR.

NEARY: How many members - MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order please! Standing Order 53(4) notes that the ordinary daily routine of business shall end not later than 4:00 and at that time thePrivate Member's motion shall be called by the Speaker. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: We decided this just before we came into the Chambers,otherwise we would have informed Your Honour beforehand, but it is the wish of the Opposition and the agreement of the government that Private Member's Day today will be dispensed with and we ' will get on with Interim Supply. Mr.

STIRLING: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. The hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: Just by way of clarification , Mr. Speaker, and I am not quite sure whether you said that Question Period time has expired because it is four o'clock on Private Member's Day or has it expired because the time has expired? MR. SPEAKER: that is why you asked the question? MR. STIRLING: 1 MR.SPEAKER: Well ,just for clarification 1r assume Yes. I called time for Oral Questions at three minutes to four because time had expired 1 but according to Standing 1723

March 26,1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : anyway at the latest. Tape No. 655 AH-2 Orders it must conclude by four o'clock so we are now into Motion No. l. on motion that the House resolve itself into the Committee of supply, Mr. Speaker, left the Chair. 1724

March 26, 1980 MR. CHAIR!'J\N: (Butt) MR. S. NEARY: Tape No. 656 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY Order, please! Bill 33, head 1 SD- 1 The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Chairman, I do not want to delay this subhead but I want to get a little more information on the public debt. Could the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins)tell the House here how much, out of the annual budget, goes into a sinking fund to take care of the public debt? And do we have to-for instance, this year, will we be showing a deficit on current account to try to take care of the public debt?

What percentage, what portion of the budget is now being set aside,allocated,to take care of the public debt which I believe the minister told us yesterday is $2.6 billion or $2.8 billion. AN HON. MEMBER: About. MR. S. NEARY: Well, which is it? There is a difference of a couple of hundred million. I would like for the minister to confirm how much the public debt is,first, how much we have to set aside every year,Are there any difficulties, are there any problems?

And do we have to borrow - I think this is probably the key question - do we have to borrow money to pay the public debt because if we do that is a very serious situation? I would like for the minister to give us a little more information on the public debt. MR. CHAI Rl-IJ\N : DR. J. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Chairman, I have almost the precise figure here but I have not got it quite precisely. It is $2.745 billion, that is the public sector debt. Now, I may be out. It might be $2.743 but it is certainly $2.74- something-or-other.

That includes, as I mentioned yesterday,both the direct debt, that is the debt that the Province itself is directly responsible for and the debt that the Province directly contracted,plus the debt that the Province guarantees on behalf of school boards and certain companies and so on and so forth. 1725 •

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 656 so - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: So that is the overall debt of the Province. I do not have the precise figure for the direct debt but it is very close to $1.8 billion~ most of that is direct debt. Now, as far as sinking funds go, I can certainly get the hon. member that precise information but it would be something of the order of $20 million to $30 million - around there - that is what goes into sinking funds per year, something of that order. I think it is nearer $20 million than $30 million but I can get that precise figure.

The hen. member asked, "Is the current account balanced?" I think that is what his question was. Over the past several years, anyway, I think it certainly goes back five years and I suspect it goes back beyond that, there has been a contribution to capital account from current account. In other words, we had been in a positive balance on current account for quite a number of years. There usually is a small balance 1 perhaps one per cent, perhaps two per cent, something of that order, on current account and that goes as a contribution to capital accounts.

Out of capital account, which is essentially borrowed funds, comes our money for expenditures on things like hospitals and schools -well, we are not directly responsible for t'1em but we are responsible for giving grants to the DECs to erect schools. So the capital works of the Province come out of the capital fund there. The hon. member said, "Are we borrowing to take care of our debt7" Well, I suppose everyone borrows to take care of in terms of roll overs.

I mean, we will have certain debt coming due,just like the federal government will have it, just like the u.s. government will have it, just like any government will have it, we will have a certain aii'Ount of debt coming due and then we will issue new bonds to repay that, we will roll over the debt. But I think the important question, and this is what the hon. member, I feel certain, was getting at, 1726

March 26 1980 Tape No. 656 so- 3 DR. J. COLL!NS : "Do we borrow to pay the interest on our debt?" MR. S. NEARY: That is right. Dll. J. COLLINS: .And that is not the case, no, interest is in current accounts and we are in a positive balance on c:tirrent a!=count. so, we do net bor~w to pay the int~st on our debt @liqations. MR. CRJURMAN: (Butt) The · bon. member for LaPoile. ~. s. NEMY: Mr . Chail:lllan, I do not want to delay this particular subhead,but it iS very iJIIPOrtant; we are on the matter here of the public debt. 1727

March 26, 1980, Tape 657, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: It never ceases to amaze me how the minister can get up and have the face to tell us that we are in a good situation. Am I assuming right when· the minister says that this year in current account we have a surplus that will be a transfer to capital account? Is that what the minister is saying, that this year there is a surplus again in current account? DR. COLLINS: permit me? MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Finance. Would the hon. member Yes, sure. The hon. the Minister of DR. COLLINS: No, I did not; at least, I do not think I said this year.

I said for the past numbers of years because - I am not saying there is not in this year but I do not want to anticipate what I am going to say on Friday. I am just saying that for the past number of years, going back at least five years and,I suspect, longer, there has always been a surplus. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, that brings me to the question of what about this year? Do we have to wait now for the budget or can we find out while we are doing Interim Supply if there is a surplus or a deficit in current account?

Has the minister been able to transfer any funds from current to capital account in this fiscal year? That is one question,And the other question I want to ask the minister, when he talked about a $2.7 billion debt which, incidentally, has gone up from $800 million back in 1972, in the Smallwood era, it took the Smallwood administration 1728

March 26, 1980, Tape 657, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: from 1949 up to 1972 to incur a debt of between $700 million and $800 million and it has taken the P.C.s, the P.C.Administration, mainly the Moores administration 1 seven years to more than triple the provincial debt in this Province. Remember, between $700 million and $800 million when the Tories took over in 1972, on January 18, now $2.7 billion, and that is a staggering debt, Mr. Chairman, for the people of this Province to have to bear. I would not mind, but we have nothing to show for it. We have nothing to show for it, not a thing.

No new hospitals, very little in the way of new roads and road paving apart from the Trans-Canada Highway, apart from money that has come from Ottawa via DREE. No new industries, no new schools. The school boards are struggling. Every public service in Newfoundland is deteriorating and yet this administration, which is a continuation of the Moores administration, a continuation, Mr. Chairman, have gone from a provincial debt which we were told by members of the Opposition at that time, we were told by Mr. Ank Murphy, we were told by Mr.

W.J.Browne, we were told by Jim Greene, we were told by the present Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), we were told by the Minister of Social Services (Mr.Hickey), we were told by the President of the Council (Mr.Marshall), who is now the Government House Leader, that Joey was putting her under, there was no way that Newfoundland could survive, we were bankrupt. Everyone of these gentlemen got up in this House, one after the other, and told us day in and day out, 'Joey has sunk her, she is bankrupt'. And the debt at that time,remember 1 was between $700 million and $800 million.

And now it is $2.7 billion and nothing to show for it. Mr. Chairman, it is shameful! Shameful! 1729

March 26, 1980, Tape 657, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: you talk about mortgaging your future and mortgaging your children and your children's children! I would not mind if we had something to show for it. We do not have a thing to show for it. Nqw, Mr • . Chairman, in connection with that $2.5 billion debt,the han. gentleman just made a statement that we so far, and I think he was referring to the past several years, we have been abl .e to manage to h.ave a surplus in current account. I have grave doubts about that. I will have to see the budget.

Well, I have seen the other budgets and I must say the gentlemen in Finance who alte .red their accounting procedure a few years back were pretty good at playing with figures, pretty good at it 1and came up with a new accounting system, I believe when Crosbie was there, to make the government look good when 1 actually, it is all paper. It is all paper, it is not hard cash. Will there be a surplus this year that can be transferred to capital account? Will there be a surplus in the current account? And also, Mr.

Chairman, while the minister is answering me, could the minister tell us if included in that $2.7 billion 1730

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 658 ow - 1 MR. S. NEARY: is the debt of Newfoundland Hydro~ Are the loans and the out­ standing debts of the Municipal Finance Corporation included in the $2.7 billion? And all the loans or guarantees that are made to private business and industry and made to school boards and so forth, is the minister including all of that in the provincial debt? I yield now, Mr. Chairman, just to hear what the hon. gentleman has to say. But before I take my seat I want to reiterate, Sir, - MR. FLIGHT: Hit them while you can. MR. S.

NEARY: - yes - that we are all rather taken back by the fact that the provincial debt - I am sure the hon. Minister of Education (Ms. Verge), in her innocence and in her simplicity 1when she was running for election back in June of last year, when she was campaigning on the Status of Women in this Province ,they had to have their representa­ tion in government,and the hon. minister was interested in pushing the Matrimonial Act in this House - MR. F. STAGG: Relevance, Mr. Chairman. MR. S. NEARY : Yes, it is relevant. Everything is relevant under this, it is a wide-ranging debate .

We are talking about the public debt and the Consolidated Funds.The minister did not realize and did not tell her constituents or did not tell all the little pressure groups around her that the government that she was trying to become a member of had more than tripled · ~he public debt in this Province over a seven year period. The minister has no pangs of conscience at all about - MS. VERGE: Look at all the schools (inaudible) Cabinet. MR. S. NEARY: Well, I would gladly entertain debate with the hon. minister on all of the schools that have been built since 1972.

I would be more interested in hearing the minister's views on all of the schools that were built from 1949 up until 1972. 1 7 31

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 658 DW - 2 MR. s. NEARY: According to the minister's logic, if you triple the public debt you should triple the number of schools. The Minister of Health (Mr. House) ,who should be in Education,by the way, the Minister of Health should never have been put in the department he is in. The Minister of Health should still be pack in Education,and we are finding that out in the last several weeks. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) a ~reat minister. MR. S. NEARY: No, I have a place for the hon. Minister of Education (Ms. Verge), I have a place for her~ But anyway, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister of Education did not tell her constituents that the public debt had tripled in this Province and that we had nothing to show for it. I asked the minister and she said look at all of the schools. I wonder if the minister could pay a little attention to what I am saying. The minister just told me that a few minutes ago. I will gladly yield and have the minister stand up and tell me all the new schools that have been built since 1972 out of this tripling of the provincial debt. would the minister care to accept my invitation? MS. VERGE: MR. S. NEARY: MS. VERGE: MR. S.

NEARY: I am captivated by you. You are passing? I am captivated by you . Well, I am rather captivated by the beauty of the hon . minister,too. The only time I can get a chance to talk to her is across the House. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. S. NEARY: But I would be very happy if the minister would accept my - AN HON. MEMBER: Challenge. MR. s. NEARY: No, not a challenqe~I would not be that harsh on her my invitation to get up and tell the 1 7 3 2

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 658 DW - 3 MR. S. N.EARY: people of this Province and tell her constituents just what we have to show for this tripling of the provincial debt. ested in hearing I would be very inter- MR. HOUSE: of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts). MR. NEARY: MR. HOOSE: Ask the ~ember for the Strait tes, the member for the Straits - Every school that has been built in his district since 1972 - I officially opened 60 scho6ls in three years. MR . FLlGRT: sort of thing. MR. HOOSE: MR. S . NEARY: Sixty? Extensions, showers put in, that Extensions? Erections! Mr. Chair~an, it is wonderful, you know.

The hon. gentleman need not get jealous because I a~ zeroing in on the Minister of Education there - AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) how many 'Steve'? MR. S. NEARY: Now, the bon. gentle~an just ~ade another st.ate~ent there that I would like for hi~ to elaborate on. I mean,this is a wide-ranging debate, anybody can get into it, me~bers on both sides of the House can get up on the Interim Supply Bill just the sa~e as you do whe .n we are talking about Estimates even though we are not allowed to have an ite~ by item analysis of the Estimates in this House now, that has been taken off the floor of the House, but 1733

March 26,1980 Tape No. 659 AH-1 MR. NEARY: thank God we still have the Interim Supply Bill where we can get into Committee of Supply and ask a few questions • But I would be very interested in hearing what the minister has to say about all these new schools and tell us where they are so we can make a list of them and check and just see if they are extensions to schools, improvements to schools or are they new schools.

Then we will have some comparison to make ~o the Liberal years,and then the minister can also tell us,while he is up on his feet,how many new hospitals, how many new hospitals have been built since 1972? MR. FLIGHT: Or extension. MR. HOUSE: $65 million for one '"e just opened there (inaudible). AN RON .MEMBER: One Steve. One Steve. MR. NEARY: That is a wonderful answer, Mr. Chairman. 'We are paying for the one started by the Liberals.' ~- HOUSE: That is right.You are saying it is our debt. MR. NEARY: The actual fact of the matter is, Mr.

Chairman, that this administration put a freeze on hospital construction in this Province. MR. HOUSE: MR. NEARY: They had to bring some sense to it. They had to bring some sense to it, the hen. gentleman is saying. They had to put a price tag on it, put a price tag on the people's health in this Province. They promised a hospital to Port aux Basques,where God only knows it should be the number one priority of this government,to put a hospital in Port aux Basques. What can I say about the hospital in Port aux Basques that has not already been said? I do not want to paint too bad a picture. Mr.

Chairman, I would be reluctant, I would hesitate to put my cat in there. And I am not talking about the staff. The staff are excellent, they are out of this world, they are doing a magnificant job under desperate circumstances. They are a good staff and we have a good hospital board out there,and the hospital board have been duped and they have been conned by this administration. They were told to go and purchase the land 1734

March 26,1980 Tape No. 659 AH-2 MR. NEARY: and the hospital would start. I believe it was back in 1975 they weFe told it was going to start and then in 1976. And there is no sign yet of construction starting on that hospital 1and the people out in Grand Falls are waiting for their hospital extension. That was promised. We had a resignation, at least it was allegedly over the fact that they did not get the extension to their hospital. I have grave doubts if that was the reason why that hon. gentleman resigned from the Cabinet,but I am not going to talk about that now, I will talk about that later.

But they are still waiting for their extension out there. And now 1dowrr on the Burin Peninsula 1 the hopes and expectations of the people are built up again, they a~e expecting on Friday when the Budget is brought down in this House that a hospital is going to be announced, a new hospital for the Burin Peninsula. And the hon. gentleman just sat over there and kind of shook his head when I said that as far back as 1975 and 1976 this government had been building up people's hopes in Port aux Basques, on the Burin Peninsula, in Clarenville and in Grand Falls on new hospital construction.

And if hon. members will recall 1 the present Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.Barry) the year that he got defeated 1back in 1975, they even built up a little platform down there, a little grandstand so he could go down and get up on the grandstand and officially commence the construction of that hospital. I am not sure if they are going to leave the grandstand there as a historic site or not. MR. STIRLING: The hospital in Channel is bad,I must say. MR.

NEARY: Yes, the hospital in Channel-Port aux Basque is bad.And there is a gentleman sitting in this House - I wish the gentleman was down on the floor, he did such a wonderful job in the Port aux Basques area on the Southwest corner of the Province and was so well liked that people still talk about him out there. 1735

March 26,1980 Tape No. 659 AH-3 MR. NEARY: I am talking about a good and faithful servant who served the people of the Southwest corner of this Province for a good many years who is now retired and has a better attendance record,by the way, in the Gallery of this House than the members do here on the floor. Dr. LeGrow I am talking about. Dr. LeGrow did a magnificant job 1 I would say . 1736

March 26, 1980 Tape 660 EC - l MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wish hon. members could go out and visit the hospital in Channel - Port aux Basques. MR. W. HOUSE: MR. S • NEARY : to go and look at that hospital? MR. W. HOUSE: MR. S. NEARY: (Inaudible) • Has the minister taken the opportunity No, but I will very soon. Very soon. • Well,I wish the hon. gentleman would take me along with him. MR. G. FLIGHT : He went to Grand Falls. MR. S. NEARY: He went to Grand Falls, I am aware of that. But there is a desperate, desperate need in the Southwest corner of this Province for a new hospital.

That hospital serves a large area of the Southwest corner of this Province. It serves the Codroy Valley. People come up from the Southwest Coast on the coastal boats - I do not know how far away; probably they come from as far away - I know they come from Burgee and Ramea. Do they come from as far away as Grey River ~•d Francois? Do they come from that far away to that hospital? I would say probably they do. MR. G. FLIGHT: hospital? MR. S. NEARY: Stephenville. MR. STAGG: from Burgee. Do they come from Stephenville to that I do not know if they come f~om I know they come to stephenville MR. s.

NEARY: But anyway, Mr. Speaker, there is a desperate, desperate need. So if the Minister of Education (Ms L. Verge) and the Minister of Health (Mr. w. House) have a contribution to make to my strong condemnation and criticism of the administration for tripling the provincial debt and having nothing to show for it, then I have an open mind. I would be glad to listen to their argument. And if they have a good 1737

March 26, 1980 Tape 660 EC - 2 MR.

S • NEARY : argument, if they say they have their priorities straight, there have been no extravagance and waste in that tripling of the provincial debt, there have been no trips around the world for the Norma and Gladys, no Bob Cole contracts, no setting off explosions on either side of the Strait of Belle Isle to the tune of $110 million, there have been no extravagance and waste in connection with Labrador Linerboard, there have been no sweetheart deals made for renting office space, no political patronage, no political appointments, all the money was spent on things that are worthwhile to the people of this Province, I have an open mind.

And if the newly elected member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. H. Andrews) can convince me in his wisdom that I am wrong, that the priorities are straight, well, I will have to concede that the hon. gentleman is correct. MR. FLIGHT: There has been no Norma and Gladys. MR. S • NEARY : No, there has been no Norma and Gladys! All this talk about waste of money, that is all Opposition propaganda, that is all nonsense. There is no Bob Cole, that is just a myth, that is just something in somebody's mind. That never happened. You have to blot out the 1972 to 1979 years - blot that out of your mind, that did not exist.

Well, I am open if somebody can convince me that all this money was well spent, that the public services of this Province are net deteriorating, that roads are not deteriorating, that roads are in as good a shape as they were when this hon. crowd took over in 1972, that the ferry services around the Province are as good as they were in 1972, that health services are as good, water and sewerage. I mean, I am open, I can be persuaded. But I have to say this, Mr. Chairman, in my opinion, public services have deteriorated drastically in this Province since the Tories took over - SOME HON. MEMBERS : SOME HON.

MEMBERS : MR. S. NEARY: Hear, hear! Oh, oh! - have deteriorated drastically, Sir, and, Mr. Chairman, this is going to be a long, hot Summer in this Province. Here are people out on a day like this, demonstrating down in Twillingate. They were out down in one of my hon. colleague's districts the other day - in Fogo district, I believe it was - out demonstrating already 1738

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 661 EL - 1 ~BEARY: and this is only, it is not even the end of March yet, not even the end of March and they are out in full force. It is going to be a long hot Summer. MR. MORGAN: There were more roads paved in the last seven years (inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, let me say something to the bon. Chaw-mouth, let me say something to the hen. gentleman- who so far has not levelled with us on the Fisheries Loan Board or we will take him up on his offer this afternoon - that we would have had a better deal on the Trans-Canada Highway if it was not for the stupidity of the hen. gentleman.

MR. MORGAN: What stupidity? MR. NEARY: The bon. gentleman wanted to get in bed with the Maritime Provinces, he wanted to be the big-shot. He wanted to be the big-shot. MR. MORGAN: (inaudible). MR. S.

NEARY: And the bon. gentleman was warned not to get in bed with the Maritime Provinces but he wanted to and he did because the Maritime Provinces they have been in Confederation longer than we have, their roads are much better, their needs are less than they are in Newfoundland, and the bon. gentleman joined a delegation from the Atlantic Provinces to go up to Ottawa, to go up to Ottawa looking for a ninety - ten deal. I'..R. MORGAN: ------ Initially. MR. NEARY: Initially, a ninety- ten deal and Ottawa said, "Well, hold on now, Maritime Provinces.

Not Newfoundland." Then the hen. gentleman finally came to the conclusion that he had put his foot in it. And then he decided to go it on his own. rt was too late then, too late the11, MR. MORGAN: It was not too late. The Premier pulled out then. MR. NEARY: And that is why, Mr. Chairman, we did not get a ninety - ten deal on the Trans-Canada Highway, it was only seventy-five twenty-five, because Ottawa could not, in conscience - MR. MORGAN: It was fifty-fifty. MR. NBARY: Well, fifty - fifty. It was what? 1739

March 26, 1980 MR. JAMIESON: MR. S. NEARY: Tape No. 661 EL - 2 It was fifty - fifty, seventy-five down to twenty-five. Right, it was seventy-five, twenty- five and it was dropped down, gradually dropped down to fifty-fifty. But, could Ottawa have done any better for the Maritime Provinces? New Brunswick, P.E.I. and Nova Scotia had all roads, . they were in Confederation longer than we were and they had gotten more benefits and their roads were in better shape.

But no, the minister had to be the big-shot, And as a result of that stupidity and that blunder on the part of the Minister of Transportation of that day, we got a lousy deal.~d then he comes into this House and has the face and the gall to blame it on Ottawa when it was done through his own stupidity. in the first place - MR. MORGAN: MR. S. NEARY: We should have went it on our own They can change it now (inaudible) - Oh, they can change it now after the minister~bumbled it and blundered it and - MR. MORGAN: MR. S. NEARY: You are •til~ blaminq me now. are you? No, Mr.

Chairman, this is the first time I have told this story in this House, the first time I have told it,and I think it should all hang out because we have had so much bluff, we have had so many attacks made on Ottawa by the Tory adminis­ tration in this Province as a diversionary tactic to get the heat off themselves, to cover up for their own mistakes and their own blunders and their own mismanagement. Blame it on Ottawa and if they do not blame it on Ottawa, blame it on John C. Doyle. That is what we have seen for the past seven or eight years in this Province, Mr. Chairman, MR. JAMIESON: MR. S.

NEARY: once in a while, or the past administration. or the past administration. And it is getting less and less all the time, Joey's name is getting mentioned less and less in this hon. House. Be is now being considered as the elder statesman of this Province and but for 1740

March 26, 1980 Tape tlo. 661 EL- 3 MR. S. NEl\!!Y: the savage hatred of the •e~er for Mt. Scio and the President of the Council, his name is hard1y ever menti .oned now in this hen. House. And that gentlemu,who was ac -cused so o-ften in this House, . I had to sit here in this House when I was on t;hat side and listen to tbe abuse and listen to the critic: :cism that was heaped on the :Liberals for bankruptinq the P:rovince. And the media, the Evening Telegram, not so much the Daily News , I do not think, t;he media - SOME HOK. MEMBEJ!S : Oh, oh~ MR. S. NEARY: No, the Daily News was not owned by th~ same · people then1 Mr. Currie was there. Silt, apart .from as I said yesterday, 1 7 4 1

March 26,1980 Tape No. 662 IB-1 MR. NEARY: apart from Wick Collins,who seems to be the only real political commentator left in this Province - thank God we have one - the only real one - MR. MORGAN: Can I ask you a question? ~lhy would you suddenly change your opinion towards Mr. Collins when he moved from one paper to another? his employer? MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: Is it because The Daily News is now Mr. Chairman - You hated him last year. - the han. gentleman is asking me a question and I can only answer the han. gentleman by saying it does not make any difference what paper Mr. Collins - MR.

MORGAN: But you hated him last year,You said so in the House. MR. NEARY: No, no. But I am not saying now whether I like him. All I am doing is making a statement. I said yesterday that because he is the only one left 1 I do not know if we have sunk that low 'in Newfoundland or if that is a compliment to him 1 and he can take it whatever way he wants. MR. MORGAN: Playing a role (inaudible). MR. NEARY: But I will guarantee you this he is playing a role in this Province. Thank God there is one left,that is all I can say. MR. J. CARTER: MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : MR. J. CARTER: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

A point of order. Hr. Chairman, for the last twenty minutes or so we have listened to a very interesting delivery but it has been delivered at such a high decibel count that it is wearing our ears. This House or this Chamber has a sufficient recording system and a system for magnifying our voices. There is no need for us to sit here and be shouted at. I urge your, Mr. Chairman, to tell that hon. gentleman to keep his voice down to a decent, sensible level. MR. CHAIRMA""l: Is the han. member for LaPoile going to speak to the point of order? 1 7 4 2

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 662 IB-2 MR. NEARY: No, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT) : Well since his voice is having an affect on some hon. gentlemen's ears,I would ask him if he would just lower it a little bit. Thank you. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman, I will not, not even for the Chair. It is up to me. If I want to raise my voice or lower it in this House that is my business. And if the hon. gentleman does not like it, if it is not too wet he can go back to his savoury patch for the day. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Name him! Name him! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, we have a couple of members on the other side who are very low class and I can name them if Your Honour wants me to. The member for Mount Scio (Mr. J. Carter) is very low class. The member for Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan) is very low class. They have no style, no class. They have no class or no style, Sir, and that is part of the problem with this administration. Apart from not having class or style,they are immature. They are tilting at windmills all the time and they are using Ottawa and other excuses as a decoy for their own failings, for their own mistakes and their own blundering.

I will go back to where I started, Sir. I started off talking about the tripling of the provincial debt. And all this has to do with it because I am laying out a case in this House that this government have more than tripled the provincial debt and have nothing to show for it: No new schools worthwhile, no new hospitals, no industry, no mines, nothing, no paved roads worthwhile apart from the Trans-Canada highway paid for by Ottawa, the Great Northern Peninsula paid for by Ottawa, tbe Road to Burgee paid for by Ottawa. Liberal governments up in Ottawa, Liberals paying for it, Liberal, Liberal, Liberal.

This crowd trying to get credit for it, trying to climb aboard the Ottawa bandwagon 1 trying to upstage Ottawa, trying to make announcements before they are made by ministers in Ottawa. That 1743

1-'.arch 26 , 1980 Tape No. 662 IB-3 ~m . W..ARY, is what we have had . 1-l'e have not had a qoverrunent. govern this Pl:ovince in the last seven or eight years. And now we have a Premier who is complet:ely on the defensive , going around Canada ranting and raving trying to defend himself for his anti -Confederate speeches and utterances and remarks that he has made in this Province, anti-confederate . Now he is out trying to defend himself and trying to de:fend tbe administ ration . I·!R. STAGG : There is only one anti -Confederate in this House . H..'l..

NEARY: Yes ,you are da .rn right there is only one anti -Confede_~te in this House. AN RON. ~1EMBER : He is not here :low . He is in Nova Scotia. MR . &EARY : One followed by t:hirty-one, one anti-Confederate followed by thirty -one . And !olr . Cashin yest.erday put his finger on it . -f I am out of time now, Sir , I will sit down and I will take a few more minutes sc we ca.n talk about: what ~l r. Cashin thinks of this administration. But I. still •.-ant to come back to the :-l.inister of Finance (O r. collins) and the public debt .

And I ·.rant to find out: if Newfoundland Hydro is L,cluded in that debt, municipal financing corporat:ions , school boards and i£ this year we are going to have a surplus in current account that can be trans!erred over to capital ac:::ount as •.;e have seen by manipulating figures in che past. six or seven years. SOME HON . ~IEHBE:RS: ~- CHAIRI>IA."l (BOTTI : Hear, hear! Order , please! 1744

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 663 NM - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Before I recognize the hen. President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), I would just like to clarify a couple of points far some hon. members who asked me. I understand by leave of the House that we are discussing the

schedule head by head because we would ordinarily do it in one complete package and I am simply pointing this out because I do not want to set a precedent here. And we would ordinarily call the clauses, clause by clause first,and then call the schedule. And the one other point that has been brought up is the time limit and I also understand that by leave of the House on yesterday that all hon. members would be given up to thirty minutes rather than the usual ten minutes that has been the procedure in Committee of Supply. The hen. the President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: It was my understanding that we were to debate yesterday. Because of the confusion which arose yesterday we were to use the House rules, one half an hour speaking time when we were discussing the resolution. Now the resolution is now passed and we are now on the schedule,which is items one to nineteen or however many are there, and that we were then going to revert back to the Committee of Supply for the fifteen minutes a person. This was my understanding. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESON: Yes, I concur in that as being the understanding.

Perhaps it might be helpful to hen. members as to whether or not, since this is an unusual document in the sense of clause by clause, is the hen. the President of the Privy Council saying that we should go under the different heads of expenditure and just confine ourselves to Finance,if that is the one, and dis9ose of that? Or my own view is that given the nature of Interim Supply, staying with the rules of the Committee, but it might be more appropriate to permit the - if you wish to call it - the packase 1 7 4 5

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 663 GH-2 MR. JAMIESON: to be discussed on whatever matters that a member wishes to embrace within the time span that he has? MR. MARSHALL: I am not talking about releva~ce. I am not talking about relevance, Mr. Chairman. I mean, on just about any of these heads when you are talking about money, anything is really relevant until one gets, you know, rather - you can get to certain ridiculous heights, but you would have to go pretty far. What I am talking about is the time allocation. I think the hon. member was a half an hour, but it is fifteen minutes, though. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) MR.

MARSHALL: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. MARSHALL: MR. CHAIRMAN: It is ten minutes. Ten minutes, yes, ten minutes . If the hon. House Leader will permit? Yes, go ahead. Is it agreed now that we will debate the

schedule in ten minute intervals? Is it agreed by both? MR. HODDER: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: A question to the Government House Leader. Many of those items here that we will be debating require that the ministers be in the House. You know, I have some questions for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. Windsor) when he gets in and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge), and none of these ministers are here.

I wonder would the Government House Leader undertake to see that the ministers are here so that we can ask a few questions? MR. MARSHALL: You know, when we get to their heading they will be here for the purpose of answering questions. In the event some of them have meetings, like, for instance - and I do not know whether every day one has to get up in the House and make observations as to why who is here and who is not here, whether it should be like a school, we have a roll call.

I am not referring to the hon. member's remarks here a moment ago, but I am referring to a purported statement that was made - I did not hear - this morning on radio to the effect about the absence of ministern a~d members from this side of the House. 1746

~!arch 26, 1980 Tape No . 663 GR -3 MR . MARSHALL: If the reporter had cared to inquire, he would have found that member~, not on~y on this side but on that side as w-ell , were engaged, many of them yesterday, in a very legitimate endeavour out at ·the installation of the Bish op of Grand Falls and liarbour Grace. MR . JAMIESON : that statement . 1-ffi . MARSP.ALL: It was not anybody from the House •<~ho made No , no, no, no.

I am pointing this out tha ·t this was made .by , I understand , some member of the press here this morning . '!'he point I am trying to mal<e is we do not want to get into a roll call , and I am pointir.g out to the hon. member that the hon . the Minister of Municipal ;.£fairs and Eousing (!•lr . Windsor) '"as unaware that this '<~as going to be ca~led this afternoon .

Before Interim Supply ret=ns, if possible , we will have the mini st ers here , and I am cerr;;ainly sure the lti.nister of Municipal Af=airs a.'ld Housin9 will be here and the !1inister of Education because they are in tile building at r;;he present ti.me . 1747 ...

March 26, 1980 Tape No.664 SD - 1 MR. CHAIRt.U\N (Butt) : I understand now from the hon. House Leader's remarks that we will, by leave, discuss head by head of the

schedule with ten minutes as the rules apply in Committee, ten ~~nutes per hon. member. MR. D. JAMIESON: Certainly not by leave. MR. W. MARSHALL: No, not by leave , by rules. You see , it is the rule of the Hcnl!le - Order 116. MR. CHAIRMAN : AN HON. MEMBER: nonnal rules. MR. W. MARSHALL: MR. CHAIRMAN: !d.R. W. MARSHALL: By rules. We are resorting to the standing Order 116. Now, Mr. Chairman, The hon. the President of the Council. I just want to speak a few words on this heading and address myself to a few of the remarks made by the hon. ~~e member for LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary) in his triple time - MF:.. J.

CARTER: Disgusting ! MR. W. MARSHALL: - and particularly w1th reference to the public debt. I make this because I want to put it on the record in case some of the friends of tl'l.e hon. member tomorrow have it emblazoned in headlines that Neary accuses the government of increasing the debt to S3 billion and compares that we have run it up by $2 billion while the administration of which he was a

part is on!y responsible, he says,for $800 million when in actual fact it was $1 billion at that particular time. I point out again,as I pointed out year after year after year 1so hopefully this might find itself at least a footnote in one of the papers - the morning paper anyway, it might be under the obituaries but perhaps it will be there tomorrow to the effect that, you know, the debt did not step in 1970, there was interest on that public debt which had to oe paid and this was a real commitment, it amounted to an anchor around the neck of this Province, an anchor around the government of this Province, it affected very much the programmes that could be brought 1 7 4 B '

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 664 SD - 2 MR. W.

MARSHALL: in because every year $100 million a year compounded in interest on that debt so that consequently it is not right to say there is $3 billion because, I will just point this out, we will hear it again and again from the hon. member,but it has to be pointed out that the world, even though the hon. member went into the Opposi~ion in 1970 and even though he thinks the world came to an end at that period of time, in fact, the world did not come to an end and what has happened over the past ten years has been interest on interest on interest so that if you want to trace it you can really find it between $1.7 billion and $2 billion attributable to the regime of which he was a member.

So I think that answers the question or at least I hope it answers the position being put forth. Now, with respect to this whole matter, Mr. Chai1.-man, may I point out, many of the questions asked by the hon. member will be answered and I think all of them, pretty well all of them, I know all of them will be answered to the satisfaction if not to the hen. member and his colleagues opposite to the vast majority of the people of Newfoundland at such times as the details of the budget are brought forth in this House on Friday and on the debate ensuing.

It is very difficult from Interim Supply 1when you are giving Interim Supply from the government's viewpoint 1of answering in great detail the questions which have been asked because obviously the budget must remain a secret document until such time as it is delivered. And in giving the answers with respect to what is entailed in the one-sixth amount which we are asking for the two month supply in every head of expenditure, we end up thereby in giving the answers about the budget itself. And this is obviously something which we can not do.

I have viewed, I must say with a certain amount of amusement, the remarks made by, as I always do about 99 per cent of the remarks made by the Opposition about the fact that, you know, the go•.rernment is flexing its muscles, trying 1 7 4 9

Ma rch 26, 1980 Tape No. 664 SD- 3 MR. W. MARSHALL: to run over t.'le Opposition, bringing in Interim Supply a few days before the budget without tellinq them what it was before because I remember ,and I think if anyone wishes to co~ult Hansard last year t."1at when Interim Supply was brouqht in it was brought in at a time when the time for the bringing on of the budqet was not known. And there was a qreat h~ and cry then from the hon. members oppo$i~ about the fact that they were beinq asked to vote for Interim Supply without knowing when the budget was comins in. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. $. W.

MARSHALL: So, obvj.ously, you can not please the hen. me!Ubers there opposite. NOw the fact of the matter is what this is required for at the end elf March of this year all authority the go~mment has to spend mney will cease, will terminate and this is in accordance with the Constitution. Interim Supply asks the Legislature to qive supply, 1 7 sa

March 26, 1980, Tape 665, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: . give the government supply for two months. You are not being asked to vote for anything really,to give a blank cheque or anything like that. What we are really doing is we are being asked to give two months' supply and in the space of, now, forty-eight hours, the hon. the Minister of Finance will bring in his very significant document 1 the Budget Speech 1 which will contain full details.

Now I am going to suggest to the hon. gentlemen there opposite, and it ill-behooves me to suggest how best to expend their time, that it would be more profitable to be able to discuss these headings, which will come up again in the Committees and in the House in April, when we are able to give the full and complete details with respect to them. We are now discussing specific headings. All of the specific headings more or less represent two months' supply. When the House resumes we will immediately be getting into the budget debate, we will immediately be getting into the Committees, the Committees of Supply.

All of the details which are being asked for will then be supplied and I think that the debate can then be much more effective. Now I have to point out before closing - and I point this out again because it seems to have escaped from the statements made by the hon. gentleman yesterday - that I think insofar as the hon. gentlemen, and their supporters who get on T.V. from time to time, as we saw yesterday, who make statements as to the effectiveness of this government; I think one of the tests of the effectiveness of this government - MR. F.B.ROWE: MR. MARSHALL: (inaudible) supporters?

Yes, I assume their supporters speak for them anyway. 1 7 51

March 26, 1980, Tape 665, Page 2 -- apb MR. F.B.ROWE: Who are they? MR. MARSHALL: Well, you have many supporters on openline and verious other places. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: Well, anyway, Mr. Chairman, one of the most effective bench marks of ~~is government, one of the most effective measures of it competence - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: Tell the han. gentleman, Mr. Chairman, I am not afraid to name names, but I do not choose to have interruptions from the han. gentleman. MR. NEARY: No, but you introduced it. You introduced it. MR. MARSHALL: If I introduced it, Mr.

Chairman, that is just fine. If the han. gentleman wishes to get up and debate, and debate with me, he can debate. But I just do not choose to be interrupted by the han. gentleman. Now, the situation is that one of the most effective measures of the effectiveness of this government is the fact that I think that this is probably the first time in many, many years, if it is not the first time ever,that the budget has been brought in before the beginning of the financial year. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Now, I think that that is yet another major accomplishment.

So when there is a great hue and cry and a hullabaloo from people saying that the government is trying to ram through Interim Supply, they do not know what Interim Supply is, they do not know what the purpose is. Their criticisms would be well founded, I would submit, if we were putting through Interim Supply and we were coming up and we were saying, 'We will bring in the budget some day in the 1752

March 26, 1980, Tape 665, Page 3 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: future' not naming a day. Or even if we are saying, 'Oh, we will bring in a budget in May'. But what we are doing, Mr.Chairman, is we are bringing in Interim Supply and we are saying we want Interim Supply on a budget which is to be introduced two days hence, the first time, I think, that people have been told exactly when the budget will come in. And believe you me, Mr. Chairman, if the situation were that we had brought in Interim Supply without telling them when the budget was to be brought in, we would be hearing about that.

So that is the situation and, Mr. Chairman, I think this speaks well for the way in which this Province is being managed, as I say, that this is the first time that I can recall that a budget has been brought in before the people of this Province before the commencement of the fiscal year to which it applies. Nobody has been asked to vote for anything in blank, nobody has been asked to give a blank cheque. All we are asking is to allow the government to continue its operations for the two month period.

We shall bring in the budget, we shall deal with the budget in the effective way in which we have set up the rules of this House and I think we will have a much more productive debate. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 1753

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 666 EL - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Butt)~. The hon. the Member for Terra Nova. MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, I never cease to be amazed by the arguments advanced by the hon. the President of Council. I suppose one assumes that he belie~s in what he says but to suggest that the public debt of this Province, you ~ow, was again attribut­ able to the past Liberal administration, has got to be the most ridiculous thing - MR. FLIGHT: MR. T. LUSH: House. Then • He is living in a dream world, livinq in thi!!! P"'•t. - that was ever uttered in this hon. Mr.

Chairman, to again suggest as a major accomplishment of this government is the fact that they are going to bring in a budget before the end of the fiscal year and before the commencement AN. HON. MEMBER: Name once when it was done? MR. T. LUSH: - of the fiscal year to which it applies, Mr. Speaker, again going to be a great accomplishment. Well, I want to say is that this hen. member will not measure that to be an accomplishment, the fact when the budget is brought in. What will be, what I will be looking for is what is in the budget. That is what is going to tell us whether it is a major accomplishment or not.

What is going to tell whether it is a major accomplishment, whether it is really something that the people of this Province have never seen before, is what is in it What is in it in terms of the dollars that are going to be allocated to education? What is in it in terms of the dollars that are going to be for transportation? What is in it in terms of the money that is going to spent for forestry and agriculture? What is in it for the district of Terra Nova? That is what this hen. member is going to be looking at, that is what this member is going to be looking at. MR. G.

PLIGHT: Where is the correctional centre going. MR. T. LUSH: The fishery, that is what this hen . member is going to be looking at. 1 7 54

.. March 26, 1980 Tape No.666 RA -2 MR. T. LUSH: Every time I speak to a budget I have to bring up the point, the firm philosophy which was enunciated back,I think in the first budget that money would be distributed and spent on an equal, on an equitable on an equitable regional basis. Now, Mr. Chairman, that is something that hon. members ought to direct their attention to. That great principti, that great tenet• that great piece of philosophy of this administration, that monies will be spent on an equitable and regional basis or on an equitable - sorry,regional basis. Mr.

Chairman, that is something this hon. member will be directing his attention to in this particular budget. so that is going to be the measure of accomplishment of this particular budget, not when it is brought in ,whether it is next week or whether it is three weeks hence. It is what is in that budget is going to be the measure of success and the measure of satisfaction that the people of this Province will find with that particular document with that budget. Now, Mr.

Chairmsn, ~ne would certainly approve of this particular Interim Supply Bill if this administration and its predecessors had demonstrated that they have spent the monies, the public dollars of this Province,in a wise and prudent manner, certainly on an equitable regional basis as was this government's announced philosophy. But, Mr. Chairman, when one analyses all of the departments and looks at what is happening in this Province,one has to doubt that indeed this particular government has been spending the public dollars of this Province wisely and prudently.

When one looks at the quality of education in this Province, Mr. Chairman, there has been a continual deterioration in the quality of education in this Province in the past four or five years 1 a continual deterioration, AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR. T. tUSH: A continual deterioration, Mr.Chairman, a reduction in teachers, Mr. Chairman, a lessening of the quality of progra~in this Province, which add up to 1Mr. Chairman, a continual deterioration in the quality of education in this Province at this time. When I look at my own district, Mr.

Chairman, and see the types of schools that children have to visit daily to acquire an education, 1755

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 666 RA -3 MR. T. LUSH: it is absolutely ridiculous, Mr. Chairmsn, that children should have to go to the types of schools that they go to in many communities in the district of Terra Nova and throughout many other places in Newfoundland 1 7 56

•• 'lu March 26, 1980 Tape No. 667 GH-l MR. LUSH: which I visited ~hen I was 1 early this Fall,visiting the Port aux Basques areaand the Southwest Coast and all along there, and looking again at some of the schools that some of our children have to go to, Mr. Chairman, that is absolutely ridiculous. Granted there has been an improvement in some of our schools, but we, to this day, have too many schools that are inadequate, too many schools that are not up to the 1980 standards, too many, Mr.

Chairman, too many for anybody to get up and to try and take praise for the great develop­ ments in education today,It is shameful when, as I have said before, there is a contL•ual deterioration in the quality of education in this Province in the last four or five years, absolutely ridiculous. Transportation, Mr. Chairman. Again, the government tries to take a lot of credit for all of the work that is going on around this Province ir. terms of paving and maintaining roads. Mr.

Chairman, you just want to listen to the media and hear of the various communities that are complaining about the conditions of roads in their area that will certainly illustrate that we are not spending money wisely and prudently. We are not getting good maintenance of our roads, and the tremendous amount of paving that we are talking of doing around this Province is, again, attributable to the funds that we are getting from the fedeLal government in Ottawa. I look down, Mr.

Chairman, I look down at the money spent in transportation,_ the $50 million, $50 million, for the monies allocated, and not one single penny a= that, not one single penny, was put into reconstruction, upgrading or paving of roads in Terra Nova. Well,that is so much for distributing and spending money on an eqUitable, regional basis, Mr. Chairman - not one penny, not one cent. Indeed, over the past eight or nine years I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that there has not been a million dollars spent on reconstruction and upgrading of roads in the Terra Nova district. Mr.

Chairman, we could look at the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing and look at what has gone on there and look at where the money has been spent and how it has been spent. Here we are, Mr. Chairman, approving funds for the govern­ ment that do nothing for municipalities in this Province on a wide 1 7 57

March 26, 1980 Tape No. &67 GH-2 MR. LUSH: basis, but in the last year to bring in a Municipalities Act that is really only a delaying tactic, really, to get the government off the hook for the next five or six years in giving money to municipalities for water and sewer. This is going to be the effect of this particular act, Mr. Chairman. It is just a delaying tactic. They are out there scores and scores of municipalities that are not going to receive any funds, not going to receive any funds this year and, of course, the excuse is going to be because they have not brought in the property tax.

That is going to be the excuse. They are not going to get it and, Mr. Chairman, I venture to say that, when the Budget is down and when the monies are allocated, that a very large percentage of that money is going to go to urban Newfoundland, and the rural communities of Newfoundland are going to get a very small fraction of the monies allocated for water and sewer systems in this Province. There is gcing to be a very small amount going to the rural areas of this Province, and the excuse is going to b~ Mr. Chairman, that the council of Gander and the councilsof Corner Brook and St.

John's have the property tax in place. That is why places like Glovertown and places like Eastport - MR. FLIGHT: And Badger. MR. LUSH: - and places like Gambo and all of these places, Badger, that is why they are not going to get any monies, because there is no property tax in place. But, Mr. Chairman, we will see, we will see when the Budget comes down and we will see when the monies are allocated how correct that assessment will be, and let us see if this Municipalities Act is not used as an excuse not to send monies to ,rural Newfoundland. We will see, Mr. Chairman, we will see about that. MR.

FLIGHT: Who knows the truth (inaudible). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. LUSH: Mr. Chairman, hon. gentlemen opposite - once it was referred to by the member from Lapoile (Mr. Neary) - they are expert at using diversionary tactics, experts at it. I think I said in this non. House some months ago, in talking to that topic whenthey would use diversionary tactics, blaming Ottawa for all our ills, 1758

t-la .rch 26, 1980 Tape No . 667 GH-3 MR. LUSH: when ! mentioned that they blamed every - thing on Ot:.uwa from flat feet to migraine head .aches. Mr. Chairman , they st:.ill do that, and the great diversionary tactic now, of cou~se, is oil and gas, oil and gas, to avert or take away the public 's attention from the state of the economy in this Province and the high level of unemployment. That is the diversionary tact:.ics, 1 7 59

'March 26, 1980 Tape No. 668 DW - l MR. T. LUSH: Mr.Chairman, that is the diversionary tactics they use, blaming Ottawa and now, of course, the off­ shore oil and gas that is going to be the cure to all the problems of this Province. Just diversionary tactics, Mr.

Chairman,to cover up for the ineptitude and the inaction of the government in terms of really getting down to dealing with the problems of this Province, improving the public services to our people, improving the level of education, improving our transportation system, improving water and sewer services, Mr.Ch~irman, that is the kinds of diver­ sionary tactics that have been used. Mr. Chairman, the state of the economy in this Province and the level of unemploy~ ment are matters that this government must come to grips with. These are matters that we must in this hen. House direct our attention to.

It is not enoagh to talk about them but we must have action. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. smtE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: (Baird): The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, a number of points need ansWP.!"'ing there. The hon. member for LaPoile Neary) asked what the direct debt of the Province was and in round figures it is ~1.8. billion,as I had indicated. I have since checked out that figure, it is ~1.8 billion for the direct. And as I have already mentioned 1 it is the ~2.7 billion for the public sector,for the whole of it. MR. S. NEARY: What is the total? DR. J.

COLLINS: The total is the ~2.7 billion before as I mentioned and the direct part of that is the Sl.8 billion, so that is correct. The hon. member for LaPoile (r~r. asked what is the surplus this year Well, not only really is he asking me to anticipate something that is goinq to be in the Budget in a day or so 1 ~ut really in this Bill 1760

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 668 ow - 2 DR. J. COLLINS: we are talking expenditure. You can only talk of surplus if you are also considering revenues and really this Bill is not addressing itself to revenues. So I do not really feel in a position to answer the question but I can assure the hon. member that he certainly will get an answer on Friday. MR. S. NEARY: right now? !!IR. J. COLLINS: actually. MR. S. NEARY: What kind of shape are we in I am in pretty good shape No, I am not talking about the hon . gentleman's physical condition because the hon. gentle­ man looks like he is going to have a stroke .- DR. J.

COLLINS: month or so I guess. MR. S. NEARY: No, no.I will last for another I doubt if he will make it to Budget day. But about the financial shape. DR. J. COLLINS: Well, when the Budget comes down certainly there will be an expesi~ion·· of what our status is. MR. S. NEAR,Y: Well,we are giving the govern- ment $300 million~ we have a right to know if we are in go~d shape or not. OR. J. COLLINS: Now the hen. member also asked about a new accounting system in the Department of Finance. I am not aware of any new major adjustment to our accounting system - ~· S.

NEARYY No 1you were down practicing badminton when that came in. DR. J. COLLINS: -but I will say this 1that there are changes in our accounting system gotnc on all the time. And I might mention, Mr. Chairman,that there was a report done by the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants 1 7 61

March 26, 1980 Tape No. 668 DW - 3 DR. J. COLLINS: recently where they did an in- depth study of the accounts systems used by all provinces in Canada and the federal government 1and they found that no two provinces had the same accounting system. 'l'his was a much awaited report and there will be a lot of attention given to the report because there are some very good sug~ gestions that will apply to all provinces, that we should all make some changes in our methods and try to get more uniformity and I feel that over the next or so there will be a lot of attention paid in that area.

The hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) also asked was the Hydro debt included in our public sector debt,and it is. It amounts to some $600 million Bf that total public sector debt amount. Simil&rly, the NFMC, the Newfoundland and Labrador Municipal Finance Corporation that is also in the public sector debt, that amounts for something a little over $200 million to the public sector debt. School boards they are in the public sector debt also. They account for something just over $110 million.

And then I do not have the figures for certain guarantees we have given to the fishing companies and so on but they are in there also. MR. S. NEARY: DR. J. COLLINS: We will get that in due course - Right. Now I might say that the hen. member referred to the hen. Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) and he called her innocent and simply. ·I think I should comment on that. I am sure the hon. minister is perfectly innocent of all blame that could attach to her but she is by ao means simple in intellect or in her ability to carry on her duties, SOME HON. MEMBERS: I will say that. Hear, hear! 1762

March 26, 1980, Tape 669, Page l -- apb DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, the han. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), also wondered about how are we managing our debt, how much of a load is it on us? There is no doubt about it 1 the load on this Province in terms of its public sector debt is heavy 1 but it is not unique. There are a number of provinces in Canada now which are not too far off us in terms of per capita public sector debt. MR. FLIGHT: There is more than one (inaudible) us. MR. NEARY: The President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) said we were bankrupt in 1971. DR.

COLLINS: Well, as I say, we are not the only province· in the ballpark that this Province is in, there are a few other provinces also in there. Now, on the other hand, there is one province that has little or any public sector debt and, of course, I refer to Alberta. I might mention, Mr. Chairman, that the federal debt, the federal per capita debt is, if I remember correctly, now in excess of the Newfoundland provincial per capita debt. The federal debt is a very onerous debt. MR. NEARY: She must be in bad shape up there then. We will get nar a dollar at all this year. DR.

COLLINS: There are a couple of measures that one uses, or a couple of criteria one uses to check on the debt load,and I might mention them to the han. House 0 one that is very much in vogue and is found to be useful, and that is the debt service ratio. That is the interest expenses as a ratio of current account revenue. In other words, you take the revenues that come in for ordinary running expenses, what 1763

March 26, 1980, Tape 669, Page 2 -- apb DR. COLLINS: proportion of that goes to service your debt in terms of interest expenses. In our case it is approximately 16 per cent. MR. NEARY: How many million (inaudible) $200 million or $300 million? DR. COLLINS: In interest? MR. NEARY: $170 million? DR. COLLINS: Our total current account revenues will approximate, and do not hold me to this figure, about $1.2 billion, so 16 per cent of $1.2 billion, whatever that is. MR. NEARY: So it is $175 million to service the public debt - $170 million to $175 million. DR.

COLLINS: Yes, it is approximately one-sixth, around $200 million. MR. NEARY: the public debt. DR. COLLINS: public sector debt. $200 million to service Yes, that is right, the Now, I think those were most of the points that the han. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) brought up. MR. NEARY: Carried. DR. COLLINS: The bon. the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) asked what was in it for his district. Well, in this Interim Suplly Bill we are asking the House to allocate a large amount of money to carry on education for the next several months and r am sure there are schools in the han. member's district.

We are asking for a hefty allocation for Health to carry on the health services in this Province. I am sure that health services are applicable to his district. Similarly with Fisheries, and similarly with Transportation and Communications. So there may not be any specific 1764

March 26, 1980, Tape 669, Page 3 -- apb DR. COLLINS : item in the bill there but,nevertheless, the hon. member's district will benefit from these allocations. The hen. member also, I think, made comment on unemployment, that this government should be paying attention to the unemployment rate. Well, we are. We daily pay attention to it.

I might point out that in the past year there was a significant drop in unemployment in the Province and not least of which occurred from the 750 high paid, although not necessarily full-time jobs, but nevertheless high paid jobs that were available through the oil and gas exploration off our coasts. I think the hon. member queried whether there was much use in our looking to oil exploration with a possibility of oil exploitation. I think it is well worth looking for oil exploitation off our coasts. Also, the hon. member, I think, commented on education, whether this government was doing enough for education.

I would point out that last year - I am not going to anticipate what is in the budget on Friday, but I would point out that last year there was an extra $12 million given for capital construction in regard to education, that was in addition to the $17.5 million for which we were also responsible. We were allowing another $12 million of construction to go ahead, we were putting in sufficient monies to allow the DEC's to get into another $12 million of school construction last year. I think those are the only points that I have at the moment, 1765

.... March 26, 1980 DR. J. COLLINS: that will come up. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Baird) MR. D. JAMIESON: Tape 670 MB - 1 Mr. Chairman, There may be others The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Chairman, I am going to resist the temptation to become involved in an exchange with the hon. President of the Privy Council (Mr. Marshall) on his remarks,although I must say when I read them I dare say that I would be able to submit them to some­ body as pure fiction and they might even make the Book of the Month Club in that category.

The arguments were so circuitous and, you know, it is classic, Dependinq upon which particular arqu~~~ent hon. members opposite want to make., they can either state that we have enormous unemployment - we have the Premier heading out across the country now talking about the dire straits and the desperate situation and the high rates of unemployment. When it suits the Minister of Manpower (Mr. Dinnl , who was very accurate, I happened to have heard him yesterday morning, is that the unemployment ' situation is horrendous and so forth, yet when it suits the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) to say that the situation in Newfoundland is improving, he says the rate is going down. AN HON. MEMBER: That is true. MR. D.

JAMIESON: That is true, but the hon. the Minister of Manpower gave the actual statistics,and he has given ~~em before and he is absolutely right, that the problem is you can look at it going down and say 'well, there is some improvement there', when in fact it is actually a reversal of that situation depending upon a couple of things 1like he mentioned himself, namely, the participation rate and the very low level of participation, I believe, both on the male but particularly on the female workers side.

But that is not what I got to my feet to ask, and if I could have the attention of the Minister of Finance - I do not mind waiting. 1766

March 26, 1980 Tape 670 MB - 2 MR. D. JAMIESON: The proposition he put forward a few moments ago with regard to the ratio, if you like, of the servicing costs on the debt, viz-a-viz the general revenues,and the like 1of the Province, could I just ask him,as a

preamble to what I would like to say afterwards ,is that one of the key elements that the bond houses or the lenders, other than the Heritage Fund in Alberta, is that one of the tests that they apply? And if it is, how does Newfoundland rate with that 16 per cent, I believe he said, compared to other borrowers in like circumstances? Has he any idea, in a sense, what the national average is provincially? MR. CHAIRMAN: (Baird) DR. J. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Chainnan, that is just one of the criteria but it is useful.

Another one is the per capita debt, just the total amount on the basis of population. AN HON. MEMBER: What is the per capita debt now? DR. J. COLLINS ; The per capita debt in the Province is approximately $4,500 per capita 7 something of that order. AN HON. MEMBER: That is the highest. in Canada, right? DR. J. COLLINS: Well, I cannot answer that, but if so it is not very far off at least two or three other provinces that I can recall to mind. We are high, we may be the highest,but we are not unique; in other words there are several provinces that are very close to us. The hon.

Leader of the Opposition asked was this one of the things that the rating agencies pay attention to and I would have to say "Yes", they do. Again the same answer applies, I think, that it is a high ratio but it is not out of keeping with several other provinces. There are some provinces that have a much much lower ratio but there are several provinces that are close to our sixteen, r am not certain whether we are a bit ahead of them or they are ahead of us, but there are several close to us in that range. MR. D. JAMIESON: I thank the hon. Minister of F