LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, 13 June, 1986. Time - 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows . MR. C. SANTOS: The Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report same , and asks leave to sit again . Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Inkster, that the Report of the Committee be received . MOTION presented and carried.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: I have a statement, Madam Speaker. Manitobans from many parts of our province will be gather ing on the legislative grounds tomorrow morning at 11:30 for the annual Walk for Peace , organized by the Winnipeg Coordinating Committee for Disarmament. Over the past four years, the Peace Walk has drawn the active participation of thousands of Winnipeggers and people throughout Manitoba and has reached thousands more with its vital message of concern .

Indeed, the Winnipeg Walk for Peace has become the second largest annual event of its kind in Canada . In an important way, it unites Manitobans of diverse views and backgrounds, who share a common commitment to peace, to human rights and to international development . The Walk for Peace reminds us that as individuals we have a responsibility to work actively for peace in our communities wherever we live. The theme of the 1986 Walk for Peace is: "Stop the Arms Race - Fund Human Needs ." That message could hardly be more timely .

It is astonishing to realize that by 1985 the world has accumulated enough nuclear weapons to kill 58 billion people, or to kill every person now living 12 times over. Every day, five new warheads are added to the stockpile. In a world which spends $800 billion a year on military programs, one adult in three cannot read nor write, and one person in four is hungry .

It is that deplorable waste of resources that the Legislature had in mind when it passed a resolution just over a year ago declaring Manitoba a nuclear weapons-free zone. 878 As well as the Peace Walk in Winnipeg and other parts of the Province of Manitoba tomorrow, I understand there will be similar activities in Thompson and elsewhere. I'm pleased to congratulate the organizers and volunteers whose hard work makes such opportunities possible for their communities. Particularly in this International Year of Peace, I invite all Manitobans to take

part in these important events on whose success may rest , in some degree, the future of us all. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I thank the First Minister for making that statement today . The cause of world peace and nuclear disarmament is an issue that's shared by people throughout the world of all political philosophies, of all walks of life. Certainly we on this side join with the Premier and his colleagues in support of the peace march that will be taking place tomorrow.

I believe a couple of members of my caucus will be participating in the march, and I know all of us show our support for that effort that is being put forward tomorrow. All of us believe that, together , throughout the world we must work towards this common goal of peace and nuclear disarmament. We must do so by supporting such initiatives as the declaration by the United Nations of the International Year of Peace. We do so together. We do so recognizing this as a non-partisan issue, recognizing it as an issue in which all people can unite throughout the world . Thank you very much.

MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills . . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before we move to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 27 students from Grades 7 to 9 from the Glenella School. The students are under the direction of Mr. Harvey Walker, and the school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. We have 25 students from Grade 5 from the St. Alphonsus School. These students are under the direction of Mrs. M. Lancaster, and are accompanied by Mr. Clark Sinnott from the school board .

The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Elmwood. We have 48 students from the Lakewood School under the direction of Mr. Maharaj . The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Assiniboia. On behalf of all the members , I welcome you all to the Legislature this morning.

Friday, 13 June, 1986 ORAL QUESTIONS Encephalitis MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Member for River East. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Health.

Given the fact that this government cancelled the Sentinel Chicken Flock Surveillance Program for early detection of equine encephalitis and given the fact that the City of Winnipeg has undertaken to fund this same program at its own expense because it felt an obligation to provide warning to the citizens of Manitoba of a potential outbr eak of encephalitis, could this Minister tell this Hous e why the Deputy Minister of Health stated that the Cadham Lab, funded by the citizens of Manitoba, has refused to test the serum collected and, by doing so, has forced the City of Winnipeg to courier the serum to the Banting Ins titute Lab in Toronto which has agreed to test the serum for the City of Winnipeg and for the citizens of Manitoba?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nis ter of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, Madam Speaker, the government, we stated very clearly that we did not want to give false security to anyone, that people should take the precaution. We had made a decision not to fund it, and part of the funding would be the work done at the Cadham Lab.

If a decision was made, certainly, because somebody else decides that they'r e going to go ahead with the program, then they should deliver the program themselves. lt was stated at one time they couldn't even get enough mosquitoes to fill the traps, and the next day they were full, so you can see that it certainly did not give any information to the public at all. We don't believe that it does and, therefore, we're not funding the program. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: A supplementary question to the Minister of Health.

Can this Minister tell us at what cost it is to the Cadham Lab to test this serum for the protection of the citizens of Manitoba? HON. L. DESJARDINS: First of all, we don't think it is for the protection of the people of Manitoba. There's no cost assessed to it because we are not delivering the program this year. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Madam Speaker , my final suppleme ntary to the Minister of Health.

Can you tell me why, when the citizen of Manitoba fund the Cad ham Lab, the taxpayers of Manitoba provide funding for this lab, that they cannot test the serum here and we have to send it to another province to have that testing done? HON. L. DESJARDINS: The people of Manitoba fund all the programs, and the deficit that my honourable friend, the critic, is always int erested about is also a deficit that has to be funded by the people of Manitoba.

After studies and discussion with the experts, it was felt that here in Manitoba that this would not be a program that would serve any purpose. lt would give false security to the people. lt would far, far from something that you can count on. The province has 879 decided not to subject the people of Manitoba to that cost. If somebody wants to force that cost, we can't help it. If another level of government wants to do that, we can't help that.

Rightly or wrongly, we made the decision, and that is the reason why, if somebody wants to fund it, then they shouldn't come to us and say, here, you're going to pay to do part of the program. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East with a final, final supplemen tary. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Might I ask him a final supplementary?

To the Minister of Health, given the fact that the figures I have been given for the cost of this tes ting, which is $2 per test, and approximately 50 tests every two weeks, does this Minis ter feel that that is too much to ask of the Provincial Government to protect the people of Manitoba from equine encephalitis, or the early warning process, so that some steps mights be taken to protect the citizens should there be an outbreak? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, the member does not understand, or does not want to understand. The decision was made after a study, as I say, with the experts.

We took the recommendations of the experts that this was not a program that would serve any purpose, not just the question of funds, of mone y. The province has decide d not to go along with the program. Some people disagree with that. The City of Winnipeg has decided to go ahead with the program and now it is their responsibili ty. They can't just turn around and say we've decided it is your responsi bilit y. So they should go ahead and run the program. We feel that it is not a program that has that much value.

You know very well that the people of Manitoba and Canada, the experts, that is, are divided on that and the majority of the people are saying that it is not, that it is a question of education, that people should take care of themselves at all times. You don't wait - they say well, there might be some danger. If you have been where the mosquitoes are out, the education should be the same and the people should try to protect thems elves from the bites. That is the safest way. You don't rely on something that is not sure at all. lt is a false security and we're not going to encourage that.

Manitoba Development Centre, Portage MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: To the Minis ter of Community Services. In 1978, there was a tragic fire at the Manitoba Deve lopmental Centre with the tragic loss of life to several residents. Faulty equipment was the cause of the loss of life, because they couldn't exit the building. I have in my possession memos stating there are still many deficiencies existing today which could cause another tragedy.

Is the Minister going to allow this threat to lives of the mentally -retarded, or will she take immediate action to correct the safety deficiencies? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Communities Services.

Friday, 13 June, 1986 HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, the issue of safety of the residents at the school is a very deep personal concern to all of us. The decision to vacate the Northg rove building and not replace it, and to move people out into the community, is linked to our desire to make the MD C safer and also to improve the quality of lif e for increasing numbers of the mentally retarded who are able to function in the commu nity. We have discussed with the Fire Commissioner the procedu res that we're following.

The building will, in fact, be vacated sooner than a new replacement, or even a complete upgrading, the time that it would have taken. In the interim, we have instituted regular fire drills. There was some looseness, a difficulty with a lock on one occasion. lt was repaired immed iately. There are standing orders that should any dif ficulty be found with any of the locks, that they are to get top prior ity. We have also hooked up the Northgro ve building directly with the fire department in Portage la Prairie.

We've done everything we can in the short-term to guarantee the safety and as the total numbers at MDC are now down at 713 and we expect to level off at 550, we feel that the fire safety precautions we're taking and the downsizing of the institution is movement towards full security. We would not claim that the task is comp leted as yet, but we're making rapid progress to the point where we feel we have optimum security. MR. E. CONNERY: Madam Speak er, it's obvious that the Min ister is not concerned about the safety of the residents.

Is it true, Madam Speaker, that the material to upgrade Northg rove is on the site and has been there for two years or longer? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, it's been alleged that there's some plastic pipe that has been purchased but the total upgrading is more complex than that. it's been guesstimated by Government Services to cost in the neighbourhood of $900,000 and we have discussed with the Fire Commissioner our plans and procedures to retire that building from service and the interim measures we have put in and have received his agreement that is an appropriate way to handle the difficu lty. MR. E.

CONNERY: While they're on the question of the residences, why are they turning residences into offices and offices into residences? Is this a cost-sa ving measure? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I do wonder why no progress was made in improving the fire safety from the time of the fire while the Opposition was the government. There were four years where very little progress was made. The current

schedule of upgrading some of the offices and convert ing some of the space in South grove for residents is part of the total reconfiguration of the building so that when we get the group that are being moved out with the welcome home thr ust, in fact moved out, that the remaining residents will have more space, more vocational and educational opportunity and, in total, an enriched quality of life in that building.

So it is true that there is some reallocation of space but the 880 simplistic description given by the member from Portage la Prairie as to what's going on is really missing the main point of improving the quality of life and the security for people at MDC. MR. E. CONNERY: A final supplement ary, Madam Speaker. The Member from Thompson had asked if there were names when I suggested that people were being badgered to allowing their chil dren to go into the community. I do have names available for him. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The purpose of question period is not to convey information but to seek information.

Does the honourable member have a final supplementary with no

preamble? MR. E. CONNERY: Yes. Will the Minis ter now assure us that this practice of coercing people will stop? HON. M. SMITH: . . . opposite to give me evidence if there is anyone who is being . . . MR. E. CONNERY: I've got it. I've got it. HON. M. SMITH: I have asked for the names and the member said "Oh, I can't give them." Now I understand he will and I welcome that. One of the criteria of the programs is that there be agreement, willingness by the community and the family.

Now if there would has been a transgression on that - I have asked repeatedly for evidence of that - because it is specifically guarded against in the criteria for the program. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, thank you, Madam Speaker. The provincial Fire Commissioner has recognized that the fire safety shortcomings of Northg rove has given the Manitoba Developmental Centre until December 31, 1986, to vacate all residents. Because of these problems, the MDC is overcrowd ing the residents into other areas.

In li ght of the fact that ther e are approxima tely 23 residents crowded being into Westgrove, which was designed for 15 residents, what action is the Minister planning to take to correct the situation? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I repeat my outrage that accusations of poor safety and overcrowd ing are coming from members of a government that did nothing while they were in power to improve the situation. We have progressively planned, Madam Speaker, to downsize ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, ord er. HON. M.

SMITH: Ma dam Speak er, we have progressively planned to downsize the MDC. We have

Friday, 13 June, 1986 put extra facilities and a gradual improvement in staff ratio into the criteria for staffing MDC. In addition, we have put a great deal of extra money - and that will come out during the Estima tes debate - into the Welcome Home thrust to provide real alternatives in the commu nity for these people. If there is an overcrowd ing situation at MDC, it is one of longstand ing, one which we are addressing progressively over time.

Madam Speaker, we are commi tted to bringing the standards to the best that we current ly, as a soci ety, can manage for the retarded brothers and sisters who live at MDC. MRS. G. HAMMOND: To the same Minister, is it the policy of this government to allow the quality of life of the residents at MDC to deteriorate, as reported to parents at a comm ittee meeting held to discuss moving a resident in the community; that the level of care at the MDC will not be maintained? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. lt's the member's duty to asce rtain the truth of the statement. Would you like to rephrase your question?

The Honourable Mem ber for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is it the policy of this government that the level of care at the MDC will not be maintained? HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker, the Welcome Home Program is a three-pronged thrust to improve the altern atives in the community, to improve the services to at-risk people in the community, and to improve the quality of care at MDC and that has to do with staff ratios and the expansion of the vocational education through a $2.7 million new construction, which is about to - the digging is about to start - and the overall staff ratio is gradually improving, Madam Speaker. lt is still not at the point where I would like to see it. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, a question to the Premier, Madam Speaker.

In light of the extremely low morale at the centre, caused by overcro wding in the wards, the overuse of term employ ees and th e general poor wo rking conditions , will the First Minister call for an independent inquiry into all aspects of care and service to the mentally retarded residents of Manitoba, and espe cially at the MDC? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, after four or five years of no action, this gove rnment has been undertaking a course of action that is clearly defined insofar as assis ting the mentally retarded in the Province of Manitoba.

The Minister, just a few moments ago, if the Mem ber for Kirkfield had heard the Minister speak above the noise around her, would have heard the advice as to the activity that is going to be taking place shortly in Portage at the Centre, the Welcome Home Program, the increased init iative in encouraging the movement of those that can function in the community, and those only that can function in the community, to be welcomed into the community through the Welcome Home Program that is under the stewa rdship of the Min ister of Community Services. 881 I must say, Madam Speake r, not all is being done in this very important and vital area that we would like to see done, not as much money has been expended, but this government has pumped more money into assisting the mentally retarded children and those in need in that area than I am sure any other administra tion, and certai nly the administration of '77- '81, by way of a deli berate course of action, deli berate planning, and no commis sion of inquiry is needed in response to demands from the honourable mem bers across the way.

MADAM SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Mem ber for Kirkfield Park have a supplementary? MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, I have one question to the First Min ister. Is it the polic y of this government to ignore the plight of the residents at MDC because a new program has been put into policy? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Honourable members unfortunately appear to have a prepared script and they don't listen to the answers that they receive in response to their prepared questions or they wouldn't keep asking the same question over and over again because the Minister answered, Madam Speaker, in considerable detail, including an expenditure of some $2.7 million by way of additional facilities to improve the quality of lif e of those at Portage, the construction of which is just about ready to start; so how honourable members can say, with major expenditures of that nature that there is neglect at Portage, undue neglect, I understand not, Madam Speake r.

Government vehicles - personal mileage MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nis ter of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I had taken a question as notice on June 5 from the Honourable Mem ber for Emerson with regard to car allowances. Rather than go through a lengthy response, I'll table for him a copy of the General Manual of Administra tion, or the sections out of there that relate to the area that he asked the question. Manitoba Development Centre, Portage MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speake r.

My question is to the Community Services Minister. In her statements with regard to MDC today, she said that Northgr ove was to be retired from service. Is it not true that workshops will continue in Northg rove and, therefore, safety upgrading will be required there still? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: No, Ma dam Speake r, the new building, the $2.7 million building that I have spoken

Friday, 13 June, 1986 of, will contain the voca tional, educational and recrea tional activities, some of which have apparently been going on in Northgrove. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A suppl ementary question. Is it not true that the activity centre that is presen tly being built at a cost of $2.7 million will not have access for many of the residents at MD C because it is not con nected by tunnels or by any other indoor system? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, the facility out at MDC has not got int erconnections that I'm aware of among all the buildi ngs.

The terrain is fairly flat, there are sidewalks, and there are people who can help with movement of people. Certain ly, I don't know the details of the design but the people at Portage would have had ample opportunity to look at the design and could take it if in fact there were a problem such as the mem ber suggests. I mean people do get outdoors regardless of their disability level. I think the building is contiguous. it's virtually within a block, a sort of normal city block; that would be about the furthest distance for any group, and it's virtually across the street for many.

So I don't anticipate that problem; however, to be doubly sure, I will ask those responsible for the design just to check into that. But if the mem ber is suggesting that we build an interconnecting system of tunnels at this stage of the life of that institution, I really question the validity of that expenditure. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A final supple ment ary, Madam Speaker. If the new level at MD C is to be 550, and if we are going to close down a residence which is some 120, how are we going to prevent the continuation of overcr owding conditions? HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speake r, if the mem ber opposite is suggesting that there is a perfect ratio of resident to space, I'd like to hear her discussion on that.

What we have been trying to do is to improve the space and the variety of opportunit ies that the people have there for living a satisfying life at the same time as we've been greatly enriching not only the support services for residents who move out and for at-risk people in the community, but we have been building from the ground up with a lot more support for parents of young children, infant stimulation programs, day care programs, where there is support in integrated day care to the greatest extent possi ble, and some specialized day cares as well, and supports in the school system.

So the total system of services to the mentally retarded people is undergoing a total change and improvement, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights with a final supplementa ry. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: With a final final, Madam Sp eaker, it's a question of numb ers. If there's overcrowd ing and the Min ister said there was over crowding, if you close a residence and you don't open more facilities, don't you still have the same over crowding problem? 882 HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I would be prepared to sit with the member and go through some of the numbers.

The Southgro ve upgrading is including some conversion of office space to resident care. So there is a little bit of leeway there. The ongoing downsizing will enable there to be some flexibil ity, but the actual standard to be achieved and the way in which we'll get there, I think is more suitable for discussion during Estimates. Mosquitoes -monitoring of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkst er. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. I have a question for the Min ister of the Environment.

Has your department been monito ring the numbers and species of mosquitos over the past month or so, and, in particular, the variety Culex Tarsalis which is the pri mary vector carrying the Western Equin e Encephalitis virus? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

As the Min ister of Health already has mentioned a number of times, we've retained the monitoring in horses as well to dete rmin e the presence of the encephalitis virus, but the department indeed has traps established in 10 different localities in the surroundings of Winnipeg and has been monitoring on a daily basis for over a month now. I'm happy to say, Madam Speaker, that in all 10 of thes e traps over the entire monitoring period, we have not had a single Culex Tarsalis Mosquito, the carrier of the encephalitis virus. MR. D. SCOTT: Madam Speaker, I now have a question to the Mini ster of Health.

Does the Minister of Health, would he direct his department or feel it wise to direct his department to undertake an extensive daily monitoring or multiple weekly mon itoring in doing serum tests on the mosquitoes or sentinel flocks when there are no primary mosquit oes present that are carriers of the vect or? Does it make sense to continue and to do an extensive monitoring test? MADAM SPEAKER: That question is out of order. lt answers itself. Versatile Farm Equipment Company MADAM SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mem ber for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Madam Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Finance.

There have been rumours on the local provincial scene for the last couple of weeks, and apparently a story out of the West Coast yesterday said that there is a potential problem with the John Deere takeover of the Versatile Manufacturing operat ion.

Friday, 13 June, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: Orde r please. Could th e honourable member please rephra se his question? We do not deal with rumours. lt's the member's duty to asce rtain the truth of facts that he brings to the House. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speaker. There has been a story on the West Coast that there will be a problem . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please, while the honourable member reph rases his question. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you.

Could the Minister of Finance confirm that there is a potential problem or, in fact, perhaps a real problem of prev enting the tak eover of th e Ver satile Manufact uring operation by John Deere that would jeopardize the jobs in Fort Garry and the other plants and the future expansion of those jobs? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I thank the Member for Fort Garry for raising this very deep concern in regard to a possible delay or prevention insofar as the purchase of Versatile by John Deere.

Yesterd ay, we received correspondence in fact from the Versatile dealers' organization requesting what assistance could be provided in order to help facilitate the transfer to the John Deere corporation. I've written a telex to the Prime Ministe r, which has been already forwa rded, which is worded as follo ws: "I'm extremely concerned about the lengthy delay on the part of the U.S. Department of Justice in the matter of the im pen ding acquisition of Ve rsat ile Farm Equipment Company by John Deere. Versat ile is a key firm in Manitoba.

Any threat to its viability by reason of this delay would have a major adverse impact upon Ma nitoba's ind ustrial composition. If the U.S. Department of Justice disallo ws the acquisition, we estimate Versatile's situation would be very serious indeed. "In the meantime, Versatile is operating in a state of extreme uncertainty. As you know, this acquisition has been announced by the compan ies, was approved by the Investment Canada on March 13, 19 86. I understand John Deere has commi tted to expand Versat ile's operations should the acquisition proceed.

"I would request your immediate further attention in this matter, including additiona l representations to the U.S. Department of Justice and others, to positively influence a quick and a favourable decision." MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speake r, and I would thank the First Min ister for his response on that question. I would like to ask him what further steps he and his government contemplate undertaking in addition to the telegram that they sent to the Prime Minis ter. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, we have reviewed any other action that could be undertaken at the provincial level. 883 At the present time, I'm not aware of any further positive act ion we can undertake, except to ensure that the Federal Government uses its offices insofar as External Affairs is concerned and the various facilities that are available jurisdictionally to th e Federal Government in that respect, to ensure that the problems are brought home to the Federal Gove rnment. If the Mem ber for Fort Garry has any further suggestions, I would welcome those suggestions.

This would appear to be the only jurisdictional route, the appropriate manner by which the Province of Ma nitoba can facilita te the transfer of the opera tions. Headingley Jail Guards -racial tension MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Madam Speake r, my question is asked of the Minister of Community Services and Corrections. My question is asked because of the racial harassment against a black Headingley jail guard.

Has the Minister had an inquiry into the actions of prison guards who staged a phoney prison break and dressed as members of the Ku Klux Klan, all designed to em barrass a black prison guard who, I understand, has a Master's degree in criminology? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, as a normal procedure when there is a grievance by one guard against another, there is a procedure for investigating.

In fact, the member is referr ing to a story that was publ icized some time ago, and I had satisfied myself at that time that there had been an appropr iate investigation and procedure follo wed. There was some discipli nary action taken, Madam Speaker, but not all the facts alleged by the memb er were in fact accurate. MR. A. BROWN: Can the Minister tell me then if this inquiry that was supposed to have happened and, from the reports I am receivi ng, it did not happen, did this inquiry clear the names of those guards who were not involved in those actions? HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker, there are grievance procedures for dealing with disputes among staff. Normally, they are kept confidential within that group, because that seems to be the best way to resolve the dispute. Now should any party to a grievance not feel that they have been justly treated, they have other remedies open to them. But my understanding is that there was a mutual acceptance of the decision. MR. A. BROWN: Can the Min ister tell me what discipli nary action was taken because, from what I understand, the racial tension is still there and it is mounting daily at Headingley? HON. M.

SMITH: Madam Speaker, the Member for Rhineland who's putting the question, is suggesting by putting two ideas side by side that there's an automatic

Friday, 13 June, 1986 connection. lt is true that racial tension exists in our prisons as in our society . lt is also true that because of the particular circumstances of a prison environment, those feelings are sometimes more intense. But he is linking that automatically to the particular case and the procedure followed. Madam Speaker , discipli nary action was taken. The details, as I say, are normally not disclosed publicly if the parties to the grievance are satisfied with the mediation procedure. Multicultural Advertising Program MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Business Development and Tourism.

HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Madam Speak er, my exercise for the day. I would like to provide some information to the Leader of the Opposition who asked a question the other day about the province's participation with the Federal Government in the Multicultur al Advertising Program and at the time , I indicated we had a number of concerns. I am pleased to say that I have been in lengthy discussions with the Honour able Jack Murta yesterday and last night, and I met with the representatives of the ln tercultur al Council last night and all of the concerns that we raised have been address ed.

I now have a commitment and an agreement by Mr. Murta that we will undertake, not a one-shot deal like this program is, but a long-term program on multiculturalism. We have agreed also that we will, in the future program, be able to tap the tourism agreement, because the No. 1 priority for both the Federal and the Provincial Government is to promote multiculturalism in the Province of Manitoba for the tourist industr y.

We also have agreement that there will be a broader­ based consultation, including representatives of the lntercultural Council and other groups, and that we're going to broaden the scope of the program so that it's not just focussing on Folklorama, which is the shining light for Manitoba, but it will also focus on all of the broad activities that are representative of the full multicultural communit y. On that basis, Madam Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House that the Province of Manitoba is participating to the tune of $50,000, and the program will be kicked off in the next week or so.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker , given that various mem bers of the Minister's staff, Mr. Yuel, Mr. Bridge, Mr. Sa sso (phoneti c), and Ms. Whit e have been participating in this process for a number of months now, and given the fact that the commitments were given by the Folk Arts Council, th e Chamber of Com merce, the Convention and Visitors' Bureau, the City and the Federal Government for a long time, does the Mi nister really believe that her 24 hour intervention really made a big dif ference? MADAM SPEAKER: . . . irrelevant.

Would you like to amend your question? 884 I'm suggesting to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition that what the Minister beli eves is irrelevant. Would you like to amend your question? The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speak er, I guess you're right. Fishing -non-residents MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources.

American sport fishermen are catch ing fish way in excess of their limits at the Fairford Dam and then taking sales slips from local commercial fishermen so that they can take these illegal fish across the line. Can the Min ister indicate what action he's prepared to take to stop this kind of activity and practice all across Manitoba? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Natural Resources. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the Member for Emerson for having given me some veiled notice of his question yesterday.

I want to indicate to him that on the basis of the inf ormation that he presented yesterday that a statement that he makes in the Hous e today is a gross exaggerat ion of the facts. In checking with field staff, there was one incident in which three non-residents were involved in a fishing expedition in the Dauphin River area and a conservat ion officer in checking these people discovered that, in fact, they were over the limit. In dealing with the matter , the visitors thanked the conservation officer for having dealt with it in an expeditious manner.

The two visitors from California boarded a plane and departed in that fashion. The other drove to North Dakota. I say to you yes, there was an incident involving a charge against one individual. If, in fact, the Member for Emerson can substantiate a claim that there is a wide-based problem, I would be glad to take a look at it, but I think he casts our visiting fishermen in a very bad light unless he can substantia te his claim. MR. A. DRIEDGER: To the same Minister.

Would the Minister consider implementing Operation Coopera tion, which was implemented last year on a three day period between June 7 and June 10 , in which approximately $4,000 worth of fines was levied and over 800 pounds of fish was taken in a three day period, on a permanent basis? HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, there is an ongoing effort on the part of our conservat ion officers to deal with the matter of infractions not only in the area of fishing but wildl ife management generally.

If the Member for Emerson can bring forward specific cases that have to be looked at, if he has suggestions which go over and beyo nd the regular enforcement duties which I think our conserva tion officers are handling in a sensitive and efficient manner recognizing

Friday, 13 June, 1986 that people are on a recreational outing and we do not want to leave the impression that we are going to be harassing our visitors. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Ques tions has expired. HOUSE BUSINESS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker. On a matter of House Business, I'd first like to indicate - (Interjec tion) - that the . MADAM SPEAKER: Order. HON. J. COWAN: . . .

Standing Comm ittee on Economic Development will be considering the Report on McKenzie Seeds on Thu rsday next and, of course, it had been indicated earlier that they will be considering the Report of Moose Lake Loggers CEDF and Channel Area Loggers on Tuesday next. lt's also my understanding that following the Second Read ings today when we resolve ourselves int o Committee of Supply that we'll be dealing with only one Estima tes on agreement between the Minister of Agriculture and the Agricultural critic for the Opposition, that we would not deal with those Estima tes today but will be dealing only with Highways.

Previous to making that motion, Madam Speaker, I'd like to call debate on Second Reading start ing with Bill No. 9 and then proceed ing to Bill No. 18 and then if you would call the Adjourned Debates on Second Reading as they appear on the Order Paper. ORDERS OF THE DAY SECOND READING BILL NO. 9 - THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS ACT; LA

LOI SUR LES �COLES PUBLIQUES HON. J. STORIE presented, by leave, Bill No. 9,

An Act to amend The Public Schools Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les ecoles publiques, for Second Read ing. MOTION presented. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I had some brief speaking notes which I will provide to the Honour able Member for Fort Garry. However , my remarks are going to be quite brief. Madam Speaker, Bill No. 9,

An Act to amend The Public Schools Act deals ma inly with admin istrative matters, minor amendments essentially elimi nating some obsolete sections and updating some additional sect ions in The Public Schools Act. Madam Speaker, for many years, as an example, the school boards were required to file copies of individual teacher contracts with the Department of Education.

Ho wever, sinc e salary negotiations and working conditions are spelled out in detail under colle ctive 885 agreements at this point in time and since government provides block grants rather than categ orical grants to cover the cost of teachers' salaries, that information is no longer req uired with respect to ind ividual contracts. We beli eve that there will be some adminis trative stre amlining possi ble within th e department as a result of removing that requirement and we're proceed ing at this time to do that.

In addition, Madam Speaker, we're updating the procedures for borrowing by public schools for capital expenditures. Under The Public Schools Act, school boards currently when they're borrowing mone y for capital purposes through the issue of debentu res are required in addition to obtaining approval from the Public Schools Financ e Board , also mus t obtain authorization from the Municipal Board. This procedure is unnecessary since the Public Schools Finance Board already reviews the borrowing and municipaliti es per se are no longer involved in the capital finance of public schools.

As part of the update as well, the method by which support to special revenue schools is being modified. There have been some ongoing difficulties with providing special schools revenue. We're trying to strea mline the procedure, make it more flexible. Finally, Madam Speaker, we're also going to be making it easier for parents to obtain certification that their chil dren have been immun ized against communicable diseases. Provisions are being made for such certificates to be signed by nurses, as well as physicians.

I think, as members opposite appreciate, in some communities access to a physician is not as easy as it is in other circumstances, so that amendment will provide some additional ease for parents in some rural communi ties, in particular in northern communities, to fulfill the requirements of the act. An additional amendment is going to be, Madam Speak er, changing the compu lsory retirement age. As mem bers opposite know, some years ago now, that particular provision under The Public Schools Act was challenged under the Human Rights Act, and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

So that particular requirement, reference to compulsory retirement ages, are being removed. In total, the amendments are minor, administrative changes, no particularly substantive changes, but chan ges which we bel ieve will provi de some ad minis trative ease and perhaps allo w for some strea mlining within the department, as well. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Before I adjourn debate on this matter, I have a question of clarification that I would like to ask the Minister. lt relates to, I belie ve he touched on the change in formula of funding for independent schools, or words to that effect , or you would stream line the formula for the funding of independent schools. There has been a delay in the payments to the independent schools and I'm wondering if this change has caused the delay in sending out those payments. Now, I believe the payments have been sent, but it was some six or eight weeks late from their normal time.

That's the problem I'm having with the comments the

Friday, 13 June, 1986 Mi nister said, because I don't have his notes in front of me, but I believe he touched on that formula. HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, my remarks had nothing to do with the funding of independent schools. The reference was to special schools, special revenue districts, Pinawa, Gypsumville, others where there were separate arrangements made with those particular school districts and it required some additional flexibility because of changing circumstance. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I, too, have a question for clarification of the Minis ter. He indicated a minor change which would remove age 65 for compulsory retirement. Could the Minis ter indicate how many teachers are tea ching in Manitoba past the age of 65 years? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I do not have that information. I believe it is very few. I did hear a number, but I wouldn't want to put it on record. I would certainly take th at question as notice and provide tha t information at commi ttee or some other point. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I move, seconded by the Mem ber for Morris, that debate on this bill be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL 18 -THE STATUE LAW AMENDMENT (ELECTIONS) ACT (1986); LOI DE 1986 MODIFIANT LE DROIT STATUTAIRE EN MATif:RE D'�LECTIONS MADAM SPEAKER: The Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK presented, by leave, Bill No. 18, The Statute Law Amendment (Elections) Act (1 986); Loi de 1986 modifiant le droit statutaire en matiere d'elections, for Second Read ing. MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nis ter of Municipal Aff airs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Bill No. 18 brings together the election or voting procedures under The Liquor Control Act, and The Public Schools Act in a uniform fashion. Generally speak ing, the elect ion procedures, or the procedures for the holding of a refere ndum, were uniform in nature in local authorities. Some anomalies did exist regarding the definition of elector, and the bill renders the procedures in The Liquor Control Act, and The Public Schools Act uniform with those applicable to municipalities under The Local Authorities Election Act. 886 Provision is made to change the appropriate forms or repeal them where appropriate.

Mem bers will also note that in

Section 1, Subsect ion 7 of Bill 18, "head of council" is su bstituted for "clerk." In that instance, reference was made to the calling of a special meeting of council. The appropriate person to call such a meeting is the head of council, rather than the clerk, and the change is basically of a housekeeping nature. In general, the provisions of Bill 18 bring the three pieces of legislation into a common process and this, of course, was the basic intent of having a Local Authorities Election Act, a uniform procedure for local authorities throughout the province. I believe this bill accomplishes that requirement.

I can assure members that these provisions will clarify and simpli fy the procedures in local authorities, for either holding elections or taking refe renda votes. No substantive change is made regarding qualific ation of an elector or candidate. The changes are procedural and of a housekeeping nature. I would draw to the atten tion of mem bers a typographical error which will be corrected at comm ittee. In

Section 1(2) of the bill, the reference should be to Clause 2(1)( 47), instead of 2(47). MADAM SPEAKER: I presume the Minister is aware that he is to be addressing the principle on Second Reading, not the specifics. The Honourable Minister. HON. J. BUCKLA SCHUK: I'm finished. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for St. Nor bert. MR. G. MERCIER: A question for clarification, to the Min ister, Madam Speaker. Can he indicate whether prisoners will be allowed to vote in municipal and school board elections this fall? MADAM SPEAKER: The question is out of order. it's not addressing the principle of the changes. MR.

G. MERCIER: On a point of order, Madam Speaker. The bill relates to the municipal and school board elections and I'm asking the Minister if, under The Local Authorities Election Act, prisoners will be allowed to vote this fall in municipal and school board elections? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Gove rnment Hous e Leader. HON. J. COWAN: On the point of order, perhaps the Minis ter might like to address the question, in principle, applying his answer to the principle of the bill as to whether or not there will be a policy or a principle change in that regard.

We may be able to have that question and answer flow in that way and not get ourselves into difficulty in respect to the detail of the bill. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: I move, seconded by the Member for Morris, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried.

Friday, 13 June, 1986 ADJOURNED DEBATE ON SECOND READING BILL 11- THE PLANNING ACT; LA

LOI SUR L'AMENAGEMENT DU TERRITOIRE MADAM SPEAKER: Debates on Second Reading on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Agriculture, standing in the name of the Honourable Mem ber for Virden. On the proposed mo tion - and there's a typographical error in the Order Paper - on the proposed motion of the Ho no urable Mi nister of Municipal Affairs, Bill No. 11 , standing in the name of the Honourable Mem ber for Arthur. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Stand, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Stand. On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Agriculture, Bill No. 22, standing in the name of the Honourable Mem ber for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Stand. MADAM SPEAKER: Stand. HOUSE BUSINESS (Cont'

d) MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Gover nment House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Yes, before moving the motion to move us into Commit tee of Supply, I'd like to indicate that the discussion on Estima tes today will be on one

section on ly, as was suggested earlier upon agreement, that it will be in the comm ittee room, as per the requirements of normal proce edings of the House; and on Mond ay, when we next consider Estim ates, we will move back into the two comm ittees; one

section in the House and one

section in the committee room itself. With that explanation, Madam Speaker, I move that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to Consider of the Supply to be Grant ed to Her Majesty , seconded by the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty with the Honourable Mem ber for Kildonan in the Chair for the Department of Highways. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPO RTATION MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Committee, come to order.

We are dealing with Resolution 95, No. 6 on Page 97 of the Highways Estimates. The Minister has a few words to say. The Min ister of Highways. 887 HON. J. PLOHMAN: I was going to mention, Mr. Chairman, that I had indicated there were some fee increases. There was an indication of this in the Budget as well, but not in detail. The fee increases in the division of Driver and Vehicle Licensing will add an additional $3.7 million annually.

They includ e an increase a provision for an ove rdimensional vehicle permit fee similar to other provinces which ranges, depe nding on the nature of the vehicle, from $5 to $10 0 effective October 1, 19 86. lt would also include a provision for a written driver examination fee increase from $2 to $4 for the written driver examination.

That would come into effect October 1, 1986 as well; Class 1 road tests from $20 to $30; Class 2 and 3 road tests from $15 to $25; Class 4, 5, and 6 road tests from $1 0 to $1 5; that's where the majority of the drivers are located , in that area; and this all comes into effect October 1, 19 86. The driver's license fee will increase from $5 to $7 as of December 1, 1986. That hasn't been increased since 19 83 so there's about three years where there was no increase.

The vehicle registration fees, various fees, an average of a $3 increase per vehicle will take effect March 1, 1987; and the personalized license plates will go up from $50 to $75, March 1, 1987. The comparison of the 19 85 passenger car registration fees shows Manitoba's rates are among the lowest in the country. The average fee for passenger cars range from $21 .60 in Manitoba to $57.10 in Quebec, so we're still very low.

The latest revenue statistics that we received from Statistics Canada are for the 19 82-83 year, which is several years ago but still, for comparison purposes, is relevant, shows that Manitoba's registration fees generate the lowest revenue per motor vehicle of any province. The average revenue per vehicle at that time was $54.79, far below the national average of $12 5.23. In Saskatchewan, the average revenue per vehicle was $1 06, so we were only half of what Saskatchewan is.

The drivers' licence fees and vehicle registration fees were last increased in 1983, and I want to point out, as I did in my opening remarks, that we are still spending substant ially more on high way related expenditures than we are collecting through fees and taxes that are related to highway use. MR. D. BLAKE: We'll debate that statement of the Minister's maybe at some length later. I just wondered if ... HON. J. PLOHMAN: Don't let Orchard in though; he'll distort it. MR. D. BLAKE: . . . the increase in these fees, if these are designated funds that are going to be expended on improvements. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, these are not, and not at this time. I know the Mem ber for Lakeside had mentioned that he felt that we should be moving towards dedic ation of certain fees. That has not been an accepted polic y, but it's cert ainly something that, in terms of the rationale that he gave , I have expressed and feel it may be something that should be looked

Friday, 13 June, 1986 at ih the future. These are rather minor increases right across the board. If we were to get into major increases that would put substantial additional dollars into the coffers of the province, I would certainly think that it should be justified by a corresp onding or some substantial increase in highway related expenditures. I don't think it has to be specifically dedicated, but it certainly could be correlated in some way so that there would be a corres ponding increase. The answer, of course, is no for these. MR. D. BLAKE: Can I ask the Minister what he's going to use it for? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: As I indicated during the opening statements, the department takes in about $1 68 million attributed to highway taxes and fuel fees, registration fees, and we spend about 187 million if you take out non-high way-related expenditures in the department. So we are still spending substantially more than we are taking in in fees and taxes. Ho wever, this goes into general revenue and it will be used to provide the health care in the member's communi ty and used for providing education and used for some of the highways projects and for social services programs and so on and so forth.

Obviousl y, I can't cover them all. MR. D. BLAKE: Why should the drivers of motor vehicles be paying an additional share of these costs? Wouldn't it be better to have that come out of the general tax levy where everyone is sharing in it? Why designate a certain number of fees and funds coming from the driving public and tunnel those funds into the general benefit category? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, that's the nature of our taxation system, that we do not have ded icated taxes for specific purposes. lt all goes into general revenues and it is used . . . MR. D. BLAKE: lt's not a tax; it's a fee. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: That's right. But there are fees and taxes that all come into providing revenue for the province to carry out certain services. As I said, we are still spending substantially more than we're taking in. If the member in his mind wants to attribute all of this revenue towa rds highway expenditures, he could justify it by saying, well despite the fact that they took in more tees and more taxes related to hi ghway use, they are still spen ding more on highways. So therefore, in my mind, it's justified. MR. D.

BLAKE: I think the Minis ter would agree that more funds should be expended on highways the way that our system is deteriorat ing. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't know what the point is, Mr. Chairman.

I have indicated in my opening remarks that I would like to see, and I felt it was a necessity in the province of having additional expenditures and that, if there were substantial increases in fees in future or in fuel taxes, whatever it might be, I feel that there 888 should be an increase in the construction budget that may correspond in some way to those increases; but that we do not have a policy of dedi cated taxation or user taxes specifically. MR. D. BLAKE: I'm not feeling that well this morning, Mr. Chairman. I' m not going to carry this on any further, but I may feel better on Monda y. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Item 6.(a) - the Memb er for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'll defer to the Mem ber tor Virden who has only a single question. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you. I know I missed my opportun ity, but because of Ag Estima tes on at the same time, I'll bring this in now, and raise it.

The situa tion in the To wn of Ham iota, when restrictions are on the local fuel suppl ier to get from his bulk tanks or from the town to this farmer's yard, there's absolutely only one way to get to that yard and that's down less than an eighth of a mile from the town and into his lane. There's no other access to the yard at all. In previous years, the system has been working. I guess maybe the inspectors haven't been watching that short stretch, but this year they did tag the truck and found it to be in violation of their restrictions.

There's some concern in that town about how they can get to tha t yard and deliv er fuel during seed ing time, which is when the restrictions are on. 1 was wondering if the Minister has any plans to facili tate that kind of comme rce going on during the rest riction period. This generally applies to fuel, fer til izer, grain, seed trucks and so on. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to ask a question for clarification then, before I answer. Was this on a PR 469 or . . . MR. G. FINDLAY: On 21 Highway. HON. J. PLOHMAN: On 21 Hi ghw ay. From your information, that was restricted.

I don't have the sheets in front of me. Was that restricted to a 250 or 45 kilograms? MR. G. FINDLAY: lt was 250 at that time, yes. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well we have, Mr. Chairman, recognized over the years, I guess, that there have been problems that are more substantial in cert ain areas caused by rest rictions because of lack of alternatives in certain areas, and when there is shown to be an urgency for certain commodities to be brought in or taken out, there is some flexibility shown by the inspectors in those areas.

Of course, they have to be very careful how many except ions they make because every time they make an exception you're jeopardizing the road because it doesn't take long to break up a road during that period of time when the base is very

Friday, 13 June, 1986 unstable. So they have to kind of balance that, and we have certai nly ind icated to the branch that they should be flexible where possible and where it is warranted.

However, we have taken some steps, for example, in the area of Rossburn area on 45, I believe, where we are going to be putting an overlay, and I explained this the other day during the Estima tes, a two-inch overlay of bituminous pavement over the AST, the asphalt surface treatment that is there now, so that it would not have to be decreased or weigh t-rest ricted to the same extent down to 250, but only to 350, which would mean a lot of movement can still take place.

We are endeavoring to do that in some of the most critical areas where weight restr ictions have really prevented normal, well, even worse than that, any flow of goods into a major centre. So the 45 is being done as well as, I believe 245, in the Graysville-Carman area, as another major project. This is a new process, actually. In the past, when the AST's have been load-limited and they wanted to be brought up to full highway loading, the department has put on about anothe r foot of base and then a four­ inch bituminous overlay.

That is obviously much more expensive. lt means it's very difficult to meet all the demands with the limited dolla rs across the province. What we're attempting to do here is to reduce the standards a bit by only putting a two-inch over lay right over the AST that is there, and we want to see after a couple of years of experience, by not load limiting down to 250 but only to 350, whether they will hold up and thus be a more efficient way of bringing those roads up and prevent ing severe rest rictions. So this might be a candidate.

If there is a specific area in here - I have not had this specific one brought to my attention as a major problem area - I think that the department is now aware of it and we can look at that in the future. The mem ber may want also to send me a specific letter on it or ask the municipality to do the same and then we can see how we can fit that into the priorities in the future, but I have not been aware that there was a specific problem there. MR. G. FINDLAY: I believe that the municipality of Ham iota will be raising it through the municipal meetings.

I have also mentioned to you in the past, a concern in the Oakner area for the same thing, trying to get to the access to the elevator. There was some suspicion that maybe there was a little careful eye he kept there this year in terms of transport of things in and out. Can I give the community of Hamiota any guideline as to time when there might be something done in the nature you talked about to address the problem? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, that could be considered for as early as next year, depending on how the system works this year. This is a new initiative, to undertake this new process on AST's.

I'm not certain, first of all, whether that applies to this case. I'd have to look at it. it's No. 21 highway, you say, and whether that is an AST as opposed to a bituminous pavement, I'll have to check that and then see whether this process would apply in that case. I'm rather surprised, if it's a bituminous pavement, that it would be load limited that low, but there was 889 a severe problem this year in some areas because of the wet conditions and they may have had to restrict it further than normal and it may not be a case that happens every year.

That's another piece of information I would like to get before I make a commitment as to how severe this problem is and how quickly we should address it. MR. G. FINDLAY: Would it be advisable for - this is Co-op that had the trouble - for them to communicate with the department next year before restrictions come on, to know what latitude they had to get fuel, say, to this specific farmer? HON. J. PLOHMAN: They should do that now, rather than waiting, so that we can look at whether we can take some long-term remedies.

There's always going to be these situations where certai n farmers cannot get fuel during that period of time, unless they can find a way around on a municipal road or some other road that isn't restricted . What they should do is plan for that, wherever possible, that the farmer will try to get his fuel in before restr ictions come in because he knows that they're going to be there, and to plan accordingly. In the case of fuel, I think that could be done. MR. G. FINDLAY: This spring, there were two situations that prevented that from happening. One was the tig htness of cash.

They were waiting and waiting until the last minute before they'd make a commitment to get fuel into their storage tanks. The other was the fact that the price was falling and there was anticipation that next week it'll be lower again, another economic reason to hold back and those two issues caused them to be bringing the fuel in during the restricted period. Even if they did fill their tanks prior to the restricted period, during seeding they would absolutely have to have more brought in. I will give you the details on it and hopefully it will be addressed in the near future. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I propose to engage in rather a lengthy discussion now in the whole area of motor vehicle accidents, injuries and deaths. I guess it all involves the whole seat belt question and, Mr. Chairman, it probably comes as no surprise to new members, when we debated the bill in 1983, I voted against the compul sory aspects. MR. CHAIRMAN: If I could interrupt the mem ber for a seco nd, we are dealing with driver and vehicle licensing. Item 6.(

c) is Safety. I wonder if it wouldn't be more appropriate . . . unless you want to deal with the whole thing in generality. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I propose to deal with it in a general sense because I believe our critic is out right now and if the Minister would consider . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: I have no problems with that.

Friday, 13 June, 1986 MR. C. MANNESS: I'd like to com plete it today if I can. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Sure. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, as I was saying, with respect to my view on the compu lsory aspect of seat belts, however I wanted to make it well-known at this time, I do believe that seat belts do save lives in circumstances.

I also, however, believe in a few situations where seat belts cost lives - and I'm not talking about the examples in the past that have been used where vehicles overturn into water or things of that nature - I guess I've seen it first-hand in the City of Winnipeg where individuals that have been belted in, particularly one that was well-kno wn to me, a neighbour was hit at 25 or 30 miles an hour from the side and died; and I'd say as a result, certai nly is directly or indirectly, because of wearing a seat belt.

I was just at a - I won't say test imonial - I'd say a celebration of an event where two constituents of mine received heroic awards from the RCMP because they pulled somebody out of a vehicle just before it exploded and that person was not belted in and even the RCMP indicated, that had they been belted in the individual - who was unconscious at the time - would have died. I use that as

preamble, Mr. Chairman, because I think it's very important that we begin to look at the statistics associated with motor vehicle accidents, deal ing specifically with motor vehicle occupants, and try to tell the public of Manitoba - specifically from a statistical standpoint - how it is that our compuls ory legislation has helped deaths and injury statistic totals. Mr.

Chairman, you might not remem ber, but I'm sure the Minister does, that when we debated the seat -belt bill and when we came into commit tee, various people associated with either the Manit oba Med ical Associa tion, or other groups, indicated to those of us who were trying to reach some type of conclusion with respect to the bill that there would be a 30 percent saving of life and I think that was a commitment. lt can be documented, I don't have it before me, but certainly it's docu mented in Hansard; and secondly , it was also used on some of the literature, some of the advertisement that went out early in that campaign.

Statistics that have been provided to me by Mr. Martens - and I know the Minister is well aware of his involvement in att empting to use raw data and come to, I believe, objective conclusions - causes me to ask the Minister some very specific questions with respect to the compuls ory aspect of seat belts. Let me also say, Mr.

Chairman, at this time, that my teenage children who are of driving age - one of them - when he leaves the yard I insist that he be belted up because, on average, I belie ve that there is a safety factor involved with their use and I prefer to play the odds, and I want to see him and my other childr en belted up. But I think it's pretty important that the Minister and the department be very candid with the releasing of the statistics, and allow the whole discussion to continue again with respect to the compu lsory aspect.

I asked the Mi nister in the House, I believe, two or th ree weeks 890 ago, how the 1984 statistics compared to 1983. I then gave him some of the numbers that had been detailed for me, and he chose not to, in any way, argue with them, so I assume that they were correct. Inde ed the number of people that died - I'm talking about people who were motor vehicle occupants - increased from 78 to 92. Also, the total number of injured increased marginally for 1984 versus 19 83, even though the rate of usage jump ed to approximately 50 percent or 60 percent in 1984 versus the estimated 10 percent to 12 percent in 19 83.

I would therefore ask the Minister, who probably has access to prelimina ry and maybe final 1985 results, whether this trend has stabilized or whether as a matter of fact we have had some decrease in the numbers of deaths and injuries since the advent of compuls ory seat belt legislation and, if the numbers have not stabilized, whether or not the department or indeed he himself has some explanation to what has occurred and why numbers have not fallen off to any degree, and certainly to the 30 percent, as indicated that might occur, when we passed the legislation in 19 83. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, first of all, as I indicated in the House, it's rather a narrow view to look at only two years and say there's a trend developed or that there is a change from what may have been predicted, because that is a very small sampling. I think it's important to look over a period of years to see if there were trends that developed. lt's certainly not conclusive in any way to look at one year and say, obviously it's not working. The fact is that there was an increase in the number of deaths, motor vehicle occupants, from 19 83-84 to 92, so I'm not disputing that number.

According to our statistics, in 1985, there were 85, so there was a drop again of seven in 1985. We don't have the injuries total in 1985. What we do see is an increase in 1985 right across the country in fatalities, which is something that is somewhat alarming, I imagine, but again it's a very isolated snapshot of what's happened. There is an increase of 5. 7 percent over 1984 fatalities right across the countr y, and an increase of 4.4 percent over the average fatalities in the last th ree years for Canada.

For Manitoba, there was actually a drop of nearly 12 percent over the average of the last three years in 1985, because there were substantially higher deaths in 1981, 1982 than there were in 1983. So I would look at 19 83 as the anomaly, as a rather unusually low number of deaths. I would not think it would be proper to use that as the base point.

Another point that I want to make and I think that is very significant and one that I made in the House, and I think that it has to be given a great deal of consideration when looking at these figures, is that, by far and away, the majority of the people who were killed in motor vehicle accidents, as motor vehicle occupant victims, were not wearing seat belts. Where they were, some were only wearing their lap belts. But if you consider the fact that 62 out of the 85 in 198 5 were not wearing a proper assembly or not wearing any assemb ly, that's 73 percent not wearing, and there are also eight unknowns.

If you take half of those, you've got it almost up to 80 percent of the occupants not wearing their seat belts of those who were killed.

Friday, 13 June, 1986 So you cannot measure the effe ctiveness of seat belts in that regard if all of those people were not wearing their seat belts when they were killed. lt demons trates that those people who were not wearing their seat belts were obviously much more vulnerable, it would seem to me, than those who were wearing their seat belts since only 20 percent of the deaths were associated with those wearing a proper assembly . I think that is a very important statistic, and one that we should not lose sight of.

There's a similar kind of correlation in other provinces as well with regard to occupants wearing their seat belts and those who weren 't, in terms of fatalities. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I'm glad to hear that there was a drop in 1985 in motor vehicle occupant deaths. Is Manitoba though still the lowest? Does it still have the lowest death either to total mileage driven, lowest deaths to the total num ber of motor vehicle registrations, whatever the measure is? Do we still not have the lowest experience per whatever measure there is within the nation? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I don't have the latest figures on that, but I know the latest that I did see, we were, and I think I provided that inf ormation in last year 's Estimates. We don't have the revised table, but there's no reason to indicate by the number of deaths and by the statistics I just gave that show the rest of Canada has had an increase in fat alities ove rall in 19 85,

whereas we've had a decrease over the last three-year average. lt would seem to indicate clearly that we haven 't changed our position in that regard. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I won't move into a long debate about the reason why the number in 1983 and 1984, totalling 78 in 1983 and 92 in 1984 were killed, although if one looks at the detailed list, there certainly is a large proportion of people who were killed - and I have the odd detail here - who were under the influence of some degree of alcohol.

I guess, some people would say that prevention and safe driving are still the proper ways in which to bring down those statistics. But the Minister claims that the majority that were killed were not wearing seat belts, and I have no argument with that; but some people would argue that the police, when they arrive at an accident scene and find people who have survived the accident, and who may not have been wearing seat belts, never ever put a report in as to whether they would have survived had they been wearing seat belts. That's one other side of the argument that we never measure statistical ly.

I guess that's one of the arguments I would have in opposition to the Minister when he says, well, 80 percent may have been saved had they been wearing a seat belt. lt moves again to that whole realm of statistics, because the Minister remem bers well the debates that we had when we were discussing the bill and the assumed numbers of lives that would be saved if we brought in this law. Now it isn't happening; we're not saving 30 percent, as he indicated.

I'm glad to hear that the numbers dropp ed in 1985, but, using the numbers that he's giving me on a national 891 perspective, why then are the numbers increasing? I mean it was indicated in 19 82-83 that the economy had something to do with the fact that there were fewer deaths and inju ries during those years. I won't accept as a rationale that the economy is better now and people are therefore driving more and that's the reason the numb ers are once again increasing.

Surely, there must be some explanation as to why the numbers, in a national sense, are increasing and why, in 1984, ours increased so dramatically even though they had been moderated to certainly some degree in 1985. What is the explanation for these numbers continuing to increase? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Again the member is looking at it from a single snap shot of the year previous and said why are these increasing again. As I indicated, in Manitoba, over the thr ee-year average, there was a general decrease. I just wanted to total the fatal victims; this is not occupant victims.

I just want to give a kind of a trend of the last number of years just to show what has been the experience in the past. 19 78 was 198; 19 79 - 183; 1980 - 175; 19 81, back up to 198; 1982 - 151; 1983 - 13 3; 1984 - 12 7; 19 85 - 13 3. So there has been a leveling off of deaths in hi ghway fatalities, general ly, in Manitoba. A MEMBER: Is that all kinds, or only pedestrians? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, th ese are dea ths in motorcycles and pedestrians hit, but I'm just saying total number of deaths. However, I have indicated before that there was also a drop in the number of occupant deaths.

From 19 81, from 12 8 down to 105 in 1982; and then this huge anomaly, this big drop down to 78 in 1983; and then back up to 92, which is still a significant reduction from 19 82 of 105, but there's that 78 stuck in the middle; and then 85 in 1985. So you can see that 1983 really stands out as an anomaly in the dropping figures as far as motor vehicle deaths are concerned. Now, I just want to point out that the assumptions that were made were based on 80 percent usage of seat belts.

Any figures given as opposed to the figure that we had a couple of weeks ago of some 52 or 55 percent that were wearing seat belts in Manitoba, if you're not having the usage, obviously, your project ions cannot hold true or cannot even come close to holding true in that regard. So that is why the stepped-up enforcement took place this past couple of weeks, and we haven't got the information yet as to what the wearing rate is now that took place. MR. G. ROCH: And I hope it's lower. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: You kno w the Memb er for Springfield is showing complete irresponsi bility in his snide little comments that are coming out about how he hopes it's lower. Obviou sly, he has no regard for deaths and injuries . . . MR. G. ROCH: Do you wear yours? Do you wear yours all the time?

Friday, 13 June, 1986 HON. J. PLOHMAN: . . . and the pain and suffering for people that are affected by accidents and injuries on the highway system. He should perhaps take a look at what he is saying before he says it. MR. G. ROCH: Maybe you should take a look at what you're saying. HON. J. PLOHMAN: With regard to the statistical inf ormation, the Member for Morris would be interested in knowing ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. The Member for Springfield is on the speakers' list next.

Would the Member for Springfield please wait until he has his opportunity; the Member for Morris has a question which the Minister is responding to. The Honou rable Minister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I will try to ignore the interjections by the Member for Springfield.

I wanted to mention that the University of Manitoba is undertaking - a Professor Mull igan - a study that I think would answer some of the questions that the Memb er for Morris raised insofar as whether a person would have been injured or killed or the inju ries would have been more severe had he not been wearing a seat belt versus whether he was at the time of an accident. That study is being funded through the sub­ agreement. The Federal Government is funding that study .

I belie ve we, and MPIC also, have some input into it. lt is quite an independent study and they are attending the scenes of each motorcycle accident, investigating to determine the degree of injury and whether death would have resulted regardless of helmet usage; for example, injuries to other parts of the body, areas of the body. They would also look at motor vehicle accidents, examine each vehicle to determine whether a seat belt was in use at the time of accidents; investigate inju ries to determine whether injury would have been more or less severe without the seat belt usage.

The study uses the year before the year of legislation and the year following imple mentation as a basis for compa rison using all of that information. So I think that study will provide us with some significant information that we can actually use as a measuring stick, but we don't have that yet and we should have that study com pleted I think it's by December of 19 86. lt has taken long er than we expected, but it's still ongoing. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I guess I have a lot of comments in rebuttal.

First of all, I thank the Mi nister for at least pulling out the motor vehicle occupant deaths because today I mean we're too enligh tened to begin to - particularly myself when I'm talking about seat belts specifically - to look at the total deaths and, of course, as the Min ister ind icates, include pedestrians, motorcycle riders and drivers and the whole group of people that are killed anywhere on a thoroughfare, and yet the seat belt argument specifically deals with the motor vehicle occupant deaths.

The Minister has given me those totals for four consecutive years and now actually for 1985 also, 892 totalling 85, I believe, so there would be five consecutive years. But I think the Minis ter talks about the phenomenon of 1983 dropping to 78. Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't know what 1980 looked like, but there were significant decreases leading up to 1983. I mean we came down from 128 to 105 to 78, so something was occurring. I think the Minis ter, following his argument, has to pull out more than just 1983.

He also has to look at 1982 and 1981 because there were significant decreases before the advent of the law. But I'll put that aside for now. The Minis ter also says that the assumptions aren't valid unless we have 80 percent . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Or more. MR. C. MANNESS: . . . buckling up. I can't understand, though, how if we had 55 percent, which was five-and-a-half times greater than what we had before - again the advent of the legislation in 1983 - why at least there wouldn't be some type of decrease. So the Minis ter says unless we have 80, we don't have a valid test. Mr.

Chairman, that doesn 't make any sense at all. I would have to think that if we tripled or quadrupled the use, there would be some type of saving of life. The number for 1985, I can't quite fit that into my thinking pattern right now but I'm more concerned, and I guess what I resent the most in this whole discussion, as it's taken place over the last three years, that those of us who were trying to decide how to vote on the issue were told by some of the very same people who are doing the research now, that there would be a specific saving of life, that it was a certainty.

So when I see the same people involved in the research and then I'm aware of some of the difficulty Mr. Martens has had in looking at data on comparable terms, I believe that, to some degree, there is an attempt out there to not, in the most objective fashion, deal with the raw data, deal with the realities of the accidents, to give those of us who are very concerned about this issue a totally objective conclusion with respect to either individual accidents or year-end summaries.

So my question to the Minister, is he totally convinced of the objectivity of the studies that are taking place, bearing in mind that on average I would agree with him and those who believe that seat belts on average will save injuries. The argument goes beyond that, as he knows. it's one dealing with compulsion. My question: Is he convinced that there's total objectivity with respect to the studies that are being conducted at this time? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I can't say categ orically whether I'm convinced until I see the results of the study, in light of what experience we've seen here with our statistics. lt seems that there's been a delay in getting the work done, which has been some concern; I thought it was going to be ready earlier, so that has been somewhat frustrat ing. But in terms of whether I have confidence, I would hope that there will be objective statistics and analysis come out of the studies and I think it's premature to judge. If it's obviously a fact that there hasn't been the kind of impact on deaths and injuries that was projected

Friday, 13 June, 1986 on the basis of the amount of usage of seat belts, then I don't think any amount of manipulation of the figures can make black look white. So that's why I would like to see what they come up with and analyze that, take a look at it, before I pass judgment. MR. C. MANNESS: That's fair comment, Mr . Chairman.

I guess I would ask the Minister whether anybody, any of his staff, or anybody that's resear ching the question tod ay, either in Manitoba or elsewhere, have attempted to wrestle with the question as to whether or not people are driving any more recklessly because they believe that there's a greater safety factor associated with wearing seat belts; because the statistics point out, for instance, in Saskatchewan the collision rate increased by 10 percent in the year of compulsion; in Ontario it increased by about 6 percent. Of course, that's jus t one year.

There may have been reasons, climatic reasons why that was very high, I don't want to say. But the point being, is there any indication that may be occurring in Manitoba? Are there more collisions? Are there some people who do not understand the thr eat when they move, the thr eat of death and inju ry, if they do not drive in a safe fashion, people who are led to believe that they have some greater degree of safety as long as they do buckle up? Is that phenomena in existence at all in the Province of Manitoba. HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt's a difficult one to measure. I don't think we have any ways of doing that.

I was just checking with staff here on that and, really, there isn't a way of determ ining whether people are more reckless. I imagine if you consulted with people thoug h, general ly, or did some kind of a survey on it, you would find that they feel more secure with their seat belt on. Now, whether that translates into a different habit of driving, I don't know. Then I look at the fact that 73 percent to 80 percent in the last year were not wearing seat belts when they were killed, so I just think the whole thing falls apart because they shouldn't be getting more reckless.

Just because they're going to show every body that they don't have to wear their seat belt, and still drive, I don't understand that kind of logic. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, if the Minister and the former Minis ter who introduc ed the bill had been listening to some of the debate, he'd understand why because as we indicated, the safest drivers and the people who will obey laws are naturally the people who will buckle it up. lt will always be those, who will tend to be a little more reckless, who will disobey laws, that will still, in most situations, be involved in accidents.

That was part of the rationale that we used within the debate. So his figures that he brings forward don't surprise me at all. They're synonymous with the rationale some of us provided during the debate. - (Interject ion) - You're right; in fact, you're right. Mr. Chairman, it brings me then to the next ques tion. I know Mr. Martens has been trying to move into the injury data in greater detail and I don't know to what degree he may have imposed, in large measure, upon the time or the resources of staff, but who has access to the raw data associated with, well particularly with injuries?

Because I know the way that data is coming 893 out with respect to deaths is, I think, quite acceptable, but the injury data? Who has access to that raw data? Will The Freedom of Information Act, when it's proclaimed, allo w all residents who wish to view it, will it give them all opportunity to sift through that data? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Of course, the data that is provided by the Motor Vehicle Branch is public once it's been released. Obviously, everyone has access to that.

I think maybe the member is ref erring to the data and trying to correlate the data between the Manitoba Health Services Commission and the Motor Vehicle Branch, and they have indicated that there is a special charge, a computer charge, to pull out all of this information, of some $1 ,000, if the member has a copy of the letter that I sent to John Martens on May 14. So it would seem at the present time that to get that detailed information, they could make it available but it's rather costly to do; a special computer run to glean it out.

The fact is that there's a difference in the way that the two agencies put together their statistical information. One focuses on the victim, that's the Health Services Commission; and the Driver Vehicle Licensing focuses on motor vehicle traffic accidents statistics as its primary objective. They have different criteria used and therefore it is difficult to correlate the two. lt's not certainly a deli berate effort to confuse people on anyone's

part I don't believe, but certainly is something that may be needed in the future, some type of correlation. However , as long as you're dealing with the different objective, one dealing with the victims and one dealing with kinds of traffic accidents involved that you're going to have perhaps a difference in the figures. MR. C. MANNESS: The Minister indicates that there was mention in this letter that he sent to Mr. Martens, if there was a charge and yet . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, it's becoming difficult to hear the honourable member. MR. C.

MANNESS: . . . on Page 3 of that letter, of which I have a copy, the Minister indicates and I quote, about th ree -quarters of the way down the page, "Such confidential data is gathered by the Accident Research Unit at the University of Manitoba by means of analysis of hospital recor ds." So, obviously, the University of Manitoba Road Safety Research Unit is collecting that data. I would ask why it cannot be available to an individual of the public who would want to see that data also. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: That would have to be asked I guess of the Manitoba Health Services Commission, if you're talking about their statistical information the Member for Morris is ref erring to. I'm trying to find the refe rence in that letter, but if we're talking about - (Int erjection) - MR. C. MANNESS: Page 7. Page 3, and the reference to Page 7. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Could the member make reference to the .. . MR. C. MANNESS: Excuse me, I'm reading from your July 4 letter .

Friday, 13 June, 1986 HON. J. PLOHMAN: I had been referring to the May 14 one of '86 and I don 't have that one in front of me. That is the communication we had last year and then there was another analysis done this year by John Martens and we responded to that on May 14. He's indicated that he was going to do anothe r repor t prior to the opening of the Legislature and we don't have that one. I thought maybe the Member for Morr is was going to be tabling that one today . MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Chairman , as a matter of fact, that was supposed to have been on my desk last night at 8 o'clock and I guess Mr.

Martens , I suppose to his chagrin, missed the deadline on that . I'm sure he feels extremely badly. He's been desperately trying to prepare that report for about the last month-and­ a-half now. Obviously, the Min ister will see it in due course and maybe . . . A MEMBER: Second hand , I guess. MR. C. MANNESS: ... next week . I think th ough basicall y that much of the material that we've covered today would be the estimates of that.

I don't think there's much use prolongin g the discussion at this time becau se I take some solace from the fact that the Minist er has indica ted that obviously the proof is in the year-end statistics - at least by his

interpretation - and that if thes e num bers don't continue to drop in some meaningful fashion - I don 't want to put words in his mouth - but hopefully he's saying that we're maybe going to have to look at the compulso ry aspect of the bill , because that's what's in quest ion here in my view. Hopefully, the numbers will continue to drop in a significant fashion. One final question though to the Minister.

What impact does the fact that we're driving smaller vehicles have on this whole issue and to what degree are they placing us at greate r risk or has that been researched, or is that a question at all that finds its way into the equation? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman , I just first of all want to comment that I have not reflected at all on any of the comments about the compulsory aspect of the legislation in that anything is leading me to believe that there should be any change in that, I think it would be obviously premature to make any decisions. It's not just Manitoba, of course, that we have information.

I'd like to pull together all of the studies if I had staff time to do that , and the information is sent from so many other jurisdictions on studies that they have done and to provide that to the member since he is obviously quite interested in spending time to analyze this kind of information and is interested in it that he may find very conclusive informatio n in some other jurisdictions as well. Really, that was the basis for the legislation in the first place as opposed to what was happening precisely here in Manitoba.

We were extrapolating I guess what the experience of other jurisdictions and saying ii that holds true here and people are aware of the seat belts to a certain degree that the result s should be this. Now , we are doing the analysis to determine if indeed they had a simila r effect as they've had in other jurisdictions. That's still to come from the exhaustive studies that are under take n at the 894 present time and once we have that information, I think we can make some decisions or draw some conclusions.

I think it is prema ture to do that now, so I think the member was putting words in my mouth and I just wanted to clarify that for the record. Insof ar as the size of the vehicles , that may have an effect. There may be a bottoming out at some point in any event of how low you can go on a number of deaths . You can drop down so low and perhaps there will be a point where you can never get below a certain level. That's one thing that we have to keep in mind . The other is that it seems obvious to me that smaller vehicles would leave occupants more vulnerable than they would be in the larger vehicles .

It used to be more prevalent on the highways , so I think that's a factor that we have to consider. There is, of course , more and more people driving the smaller vehicles . MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman , has the department asked the Attorney-General for a legal opinion at all whether or not the province can be held liable if an individual were killed or severely injured, and it could be proven that the cause of the severe injury particularly was due to the fact that we have a law in place that forced that individual to wear a seat belt? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: We have not asked for that specific opinion but I would just obviously remind the member that there would be a lot of jurisdic tions in trouble if that was the case - most jurisdictions, provinces of Canada and a majority in the United States . So it certainly isn't unique , as the member knows, but we haven 't asked for that specific opinion . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield. MR. G. ROCH: Can the Minister indicate whether or not the number of motorcycle-related accidents has incre ased or decreased in the last couple of years? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman , there has been a drop in the total motorcycle accidents from 1983-8 4 from 760 to 573. We don 't have the figures for 1985. And there's been a drop in the total motorcycle victims from 566 - that includes injuries as well as deaths - down to 456 from 1983 to 1984. MR. G. ROCH: What about the total number of registered motorcyclists? Has that increased or decreased? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I believe, without having the figures in front of me, Mr. Chairman, that there has been a decrease in the number of motorcycle registrations . We do have those figures somewhere and can get them.

It's not a substantial decrease, but there is a decrease. MR. G. ROCH: Isn't it true that in the last three years all those killed in motorcycle accidents were wearing helmets? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I would have to think that in the last three years, certainly that would not be the case. The helmet law has only been in effect - and I don 't know if the member 's reflecting on the date of

Friday, 13 June, 1986 implementation of compulsory helmets in the province, if that's what he meant in his question. But I would have to get the figures. I don't have figures with me as to whether they were wearing helmets or not when they were killed or injured, but I can get that information. MR. G. ROCH: If the helmet laws do make it safer, why then have over half of the American states repealed the helmet laws? HON. J. PLOHMAN: it's difficult to analyze every situation in other jurisdictions where helmet legislation has been repealed.

I understand there are some jurisdictions where they'r e thinking of putting it in again after having repealed it. The figure of half is probably high. There were a number of states that have repealed legislation, but we should keep in mind that I belie ve there was some special provision passed by the Federal U.S. Government that made it obviously beneficial to the States to pass a law making helmets compulsor y. I don't know what lever they had on it, but it was a provision for funding of some kind.

So they may not have had a commitment to the changes to the introduction of compuls ory helmet legislation when they made those decisions. Once the lever was lifted from their backs, they decided to repeal it as a result of the political pressures that might have been brought to bear in th ose individual states. But a lot of them were somewhat, I guess, coerced into passing that legislation. MR. G. ROCH: That may or may not be true, but there are numerous studies coming out, including one from the American Medical Association which show that helmets may even be more dangerous when riding.

As well as the seat belts, is your department reviewing the effects of the helmet legislation? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Part of the Mulligan Study that I referred to in the seat belt discussion with the Member for Morris includes the helmet legislation, the effec ts, so that is being studied and analyzed as well. Once we receive that information, we're going to have to make some determinations as to the effe ctiveness of the helmet law. I just wanted to point out that, in preliminary statistics for 1985, about 60 percent were wearing helmets, of the deaths in 1985, 60 percent.

So it's not all of the people wearing helmets. According to our information, about 60 percent were wearing helmets. MR. G. ROCH: Sixty percent wearing helmets of those who were involved in accidents or those who were involved in fatal accidents? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Fatalities. MR. G. ROCH: To go back to the studies which are being done, are you then suggesting that, if for example your studies show that the effectiveness of these laws, both the seat belts and the helmets are not what they are desired to be, is there a possibility of change in the future? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I don't want to speculate at this time on that. I want to see what the results are. That's 895 obviously a hypothetical situation. I'm not hiding behind that. I just don't think it's appropriate for me to comment on whether the government would or would not do it. We would have to see that inf ormation obviously and bring it to the Cabinet and caucus attention if there are some glaring anomalies that show up that seem to indicate that we're on the wrong track. MR. G.

ROCH: You're not aware, and I don't know how long ago it is exactly now, possibly two years or so, there was a couple on Archibald Street who were involved in a motorcycle accident. They were hit by a car, and both lost their right legs. So actually, if you were to use a helmet logic, it almost seems that you should legislate suits of armour when riding a motorcycle. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I think you have to use a reasonable approach, and I don't think it would be reasonable to ask people to wear a suit of armour. MR. G. ROCH: I don't think so either. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: But I think it's imp ortant, considering the fact they do have devices to protect the head which is so essential to life. The leg obviously is ess ential for mobil ity, comfort and so on, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're not going to live. In the case of the head, we're dealing with a vital part of the body, and it is formed in such a way that a helmet can indeed be worn over it to protect it, so it seems reasonable that we look at that kind of protection.

I think it's important to note that the Mulli gan Study dealing with helmets has provision for direct visitations by the individuals involved in the study to attend the scene of each motorcycle accident to investigate, to dete rmine the degree of injury and whether death would have resulted regardless of helmet usage. So that kind of information is going to be received , I think, in depth. MR. G.

ROCH: I guess what this whole argument on seat belts and helmets boils down to, is the fact that you seem to believe that government should force upon people what you believe is best for them, for their protect ion or safety. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, there's obviously a lot of conservative governments across the country that have also come to the conclusion that it is in the public inter est to require helmets and seat belts to be worn. it's in the public interest and reasonable people have come to that conclusion, not nece ssarily on the basis of political philosophy and an effort to try to impose things on individuals, but from a reasonable standpoint of understanding that people tend to obey laws that are in place; and if it is in the public good that they should indeed be put in place, once all of the conside rations have been weighed. lt seems that we have to consider the costs in Medicare.

I know the Member will say, "Well, then, why don't you make people who smoke pay for their own Medicare?" But the fact is they do pay, very handsomely, through the taxes on cigarettes. You ask anybody that's smoking; they're paying an awful lot of mone y on cigarette tax. So in a sense they are contributing to the costs of providing care for them in an indirect way,

Friday, 13 June, 1986 But the fact is, the Med icare costs are shown to be much reduced; hospital costs for belted drivers as opposed to unbelted drivers, the inju ries tend to be more severe for unbelted drivers who end up smashing their face into the windshield and into the stee ring wheel and every thing else and require expensive plastic surgery, and incur all of the suffering associated with that and their families. So it seems to be kind of a com mon-sense approach to me that you would try to provide some protection through law. MR. G.

ROCH: Well, I don't buy your argument that just because the smokers pay a high amount of tax on to bacco products that it should go on. Are you saying, then, that if you tax something it makes it right and if anything should be allo wed as long as you tax it? That doesn't seem to make very much sense to me, because if you take a look at your statistics, a high proportion of hospital costs are partially related too. We're not taxing high cholesterol foods out of proportion because of that.

I think what it boils down to is that, good or bad, within certain limits, people should be entitled to a certain choice in society. That's my basic argument on both the seat belts and the helmets. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, certainly I don't agree with the hypothesis put forward that because something that is taxed, that makes it right. I don't know whether the member is suggesting that. I don't agree with him. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Flin Flon. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

A couple of comments on this debate: First of all, I'm frankly surprised at the tenor of questions from membe rs opposite. I think their leader has clearly indicated and voted for the safety legislation which was introd uced and was voted, as did the then former Min ister of Healt h, Bud Sh erman. So I'm a li ttle surprised at this particular tact. I think it has also been indicated by the Leader of the Opposition that he would be opposed to making any changes. How ever, I wanted to deal with a couple of the arguments and then pose a question to you.

The first one is the argument about government imposing safety legislation. The Member from Morris was making the argument that, or raised a question about the liability of the government with respect to injuries incurred while wearing seat belts. The obvious analogy is, if an individual is stopped at a stop sign and is rear-ended by a car, and it's clear that the individual had to stop at the stop sign, is then the requirement, The Highway Traffic Act requirement, that you stop at a stop sign? Does that somehow make the province liable?

Those kinds of rules are imposed for a very logical reason and it strikes me as rather a contradiction that we're talking about something that is mandated in many other circumstances for safety reasons. Stop signs are emplo yed and have been in the province and every other jurisdiction in the world for safety reaso ns. - (Int erjec tion) - But they're not compu lso ry, right. So it's rather bizarre. 896 The second point, is that some weeks ago the argument was made that any amount of money should be spent to prevent deaths in the area of child abuse.

We all recognize and there was a serious debate on the importance of it. Now we're talking about a measure which does save lives and the Member from Morris talked about the facts in Manitoba. The facts across Canada, around the world, support the use of seat belts and we're saying that for a few moments' inconvenience, never mind taxpayers' mone y, but for a few moments of inconvenience, we shouldn't be requiring our citizens, for their safety, to save mone y to buckle up. 1t doesn't make any sense. I just wanted to ask a question related to the points that the member from Morris was making about Manitoba data.

Is there not a national safety body, an international safety body, which can provide us with information on the effects . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: There are several . HON. J. STORIE: . . . of passenger safety devices, and could we have some information on it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I did refer to those kinds of information and availability of the same from other jurisdictions. In all countries where seat belts are used there's been some kind of analysis done and we receive that information from many different sources from time to time. In all cases the information supports the use of seat belts.

However, I indicated earlier as well that I did not have the particular additional studies and inf ormation from other jurisdictions here but certai nly can make sta tistical information available from other sources that we have rece ived, that would support substantially what has been done here in Manitoba in terms of the legislation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Mr. Chairman, I've got to get my thoughts together. Things have been happening. - (Interject ion) - lt's only going to take me up to five minutes. MR. CHAIRMAN: We only have until 12 :30, I remind the member. MR. A.

KOVNATS: My being against the mandatory helmet legislation is well-known from the time that I stood on the front steps of the Legislature and made those remarks and it wasn't because of the safety factor which I really didn't know at that time because I didn't have the facts and figures. I just felt that in a province like Manitoba, where we're all pretty well free thinke rs that we should have the opportunity of having a choice of whether to wear helmets or not. I would also be in support of freedom of choice on the seat belt legislation also.

The only thing for people who cannot make up their minds on restrai nts, particularly who are not capable of making up their minds, then we do have to, in that regard, support the legislation that su pports restraints for childr en and younger people who cannot make up their minds. So I am in complete support, and I do wear my seat belt

Friday, 13 June, 1986 when I drive now. I feel the protection of it in my own mind, and ... HON. J. PLOHMAN: You feel the false security, too, yes. MR. A. KOVNATS: I just feel that - this is my next question when we talk about false security. Can the Honourable Min ist er, through the false security of wearing a helmet, because now we say that helmets will reduce deaths and accidents, can the Honourable Minister advise whether the security, or the false security that the drivers of the motorbikes have, has increased the amount of infractions concerning speeding of motorbikes on the highways in the last few years?

Can the Ho nourable Mi nister give us some idea as to whether there has been increases in these types of moving offences on the high ways? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, we have dealt with that question a few minutes ago when the Member for Morris was asking as to whether the feel ing of security - and I wouldn't call it false security because there's obviously some greater degree of safety in wearing the seat belt and having the helmet in my opinion and the opinion of many others and statistical evidence - so there is some reason to feel some sense of greater security but certainly not false security; that is that it's going to protect the person from any circumstances. lt's very difficult to measure that kind of subjective feeling that would be involved by individuals that they would indeed get on a motorcycle and drive faster or be more careless because they'v e got a helmet on.

I don't believe that that would be the case, but we cannot and have not done - well, perhaps we could try to - but we have not done any surveys or have any statistical evidence to indicate that people are more reckless when they are using those safety devices. As a matter of fact, I believe it would be the opposite, 897 that those people who are wearing them are thinking about their safety and more conscious of it as opposed to those who choose not to wear them. MR. CHAIRMAN: I was just wondering whether we should call it 12 :30? MR. A.

KOVNATS: If you wish, because I do have quite an extensive amount of questions not only on this, Mr. Chairman, but on the actual licensing. They will be qu ite productive questions; I'm sure that the Minister would agree. MR. CHAIRMAN: You'll get your opportunity . The time being 12 :30 p.m., comm ittee rise. IN SESSION Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directed me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. M.

DOLIN: I move, seconded by the Honou rable Member for lnkster, that the Report of the Commit tee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: I move, seconded graciously by the Member for Emerson, that the Hous e do now adjourn. MOTION presen ted and carried and the Hous e adjourned and stands adjourned until 2:00 p.m. Mond ay.