VOL. 3 NO. 13 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERI.OD; I 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. .. THURSD~Y, MARCH 23, 1978

.-, ''arch 23, 1978 Ta'f'e 396 Er - 1 Tl>.e House met at 1'1:111) A.!-!. '~r. Speaker in the Chair. HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. NE!.PY: Hr. Speaker, before Your Honour gets to Statements by ~linisters,I am sure that the Rouse would like to take advantage of this opportunity- and if the r.ri.nister >·rould Move the motion I •,rill second it if the Government !louse Leac!er feels so inclined- to express congratulations of the House to "r. Jim Hinter, a Hell-knm•rn CBC 'ladio cot!Tientator,who >·l'On an ACTJ'..A award last night.

"r. !·Tinter won the award, I believe, for his documentaries on the seal fishery and I must say, Sir, I am rather surprised that the Government ~ouse Leader and the r,overnment Hould miss the opportunity to offer their congratulations to '!r. '·!inter for doing such a fine job on his .,ocumentaries.

Eut, Sir, here "'e 'lave another exanple - several times during this session of the !louse we have had the Oj)portu."1ity to exoress our congratulations to ';e,qfoundlanders >;oho are doing so well in t}1e international field and in the international world, and nationally and so forth and so on, and here nmv •.ve haveanother example of a voun~ :re,,founc.lander •·lho is well-li~ed in his profession goinf'; off last night, with fierce competition right across this nation,and ending up with the ACTP~,\,. award for the best documentary presentation.

And if t'1e ninister I•Tants to move t':le motion I would second it. I think tve should recognize the fact that this young ·:etvfoundlander, ':r. Jim Pinter, has achieve<' t:1is accomplishment in to~inning the "CTP..A of the year a1·mrd. ·~ ....... •.c1e hon. House Leacer. ~·r. Speaker, the hon. member for LaPoile always catches Me with a candy in cry mouth. I most assuredly >vould like to move a motion of congratulations to Hr. Jim l·linter of St. John's for winning the ACTP..A award.

He has done a lot of excellent work on behalf of the seal fishery. '~Y recollection is that last year he took t<!o or three months leave of absence from his !>Osition <·rith the CllC to t•rork exclusively liOO

.. ,arch 23, 19 78 'rape 39f EC - 2 ~·'B. HIC!OWT: on this most vital project to Newfoundland. We have seen so many Newfoundland actors and artists attain great heights in their own disciplines during the past few years. !\'hen everyone turns on television now we see men like Gordon Pinsent and - AN HO~T. ~! !BE!?.: The Minister of Finance. That is right, the ~finister of finance and others, and I am certainly in the running for the ACTRA award bearing in mind that I am a charter l!lemher, ~! r . S~eaker, of ACT?~- and I still get my annual report from my union.

I certainly, on behalf of ~overnment and members on government side, extend to }!r. ~-linter our sincere congratulations. PPESE:TTI'TG REPnltTS 01" SPECIAL AND STANDDTG CCl!P'ITTEES ~~~.. SPEAKER: The hon. the ltinister of Health. ~ . H. COLLPTS: ~r. Speaker, I have for tabling the annual report of the Newfoundland Medical Care Commission for the year ended Harch 31, 1977. On behalf of my colleague, the President of Treasury Board, I table the departmentary salary details for 1978- 1979, advance copies of which have already been in the hands of my colleague, the hon. member for LaPoile (Nr. Neary) and myself.

ANSHERS TO QUESTIONS FOR HHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN ;.rn. SPEAo~F.R: The hon. the ~!inister of Transportation and Conum.mications. '!B.. P.OODY : Answers to Questions, Your Honour, asked by the hon. member for Baie Verte - ~lhite Bay O~r. Rideout) on Tuesday, ''arch 21st, number 37 and number 38. 11JJ1.

, r'l"7f"' ..!.. I-· SQ~'E fiOt:. '1E~1f [D, S: t'R. SPE.A.KEP.: tion. 1~ . ~r.N. ~O'!E : 'Sir. '!r:. SPE .~.:<ER: • - 1 11RAL OUESTI0'1S Hon. Lead~r of the ~nnosi- ~ little or~er in the House, 0:"' -' ~ .... 'I 'I !)n' ~~ . ' • . : ......... I ~auld like to direct a ru~s- tion to the Deputv Premier in the absence of the Pre"'ier , Sir. _where is the Prer:rier, by the \•!av? \tass~ :1. ~navoidablv absent. Sir, '.I~ ~ 1 ask the !JetJuty Pre111i er in th~ at-sene::!

C>f the Pre;;;i er "'R. ·JE:.~.R. y: Sunfl i ')ht! ~h o aoparentl y is out of the Province_ No sunfliahts for the Premier, no chartered I • • fl i ghts for the Premier!_ if he would rJive the House the inf ormation formally and officiall v which a nur:r~er c ¥ us have picked uo unofficially through the ne~spapers and ;hat, as to 1·1 he the r i t i s true or not t h a t the !I o use on i t s ris~ng t~day, Sir, is in fact ~oina to be adiourned for ten d a y s o r t "' o ~~ e e k s o r u n t i 1 a f ~ e r E a s t e r 1·1 e e k ? Is t h at i n fact cor r ect, "r. S~ e aker ?

S11 I' E H '1 ~! . '' P ' BERS: Uh, un: u ~ ! ! I C ~{''A :.J : 0rder, f1rder! _:~R. t!.rL ~0\IE : Let the minister answer now . ;.; r . S p e a~ e r , I r e a 11 y do n o t wan t to sur.orise -I am goin g to spell this out slowly because I do not want to shock the han. the Leader of the Opposition by takin9 him by surprise. !•!hen this House ri s es todav t he re wi ll be a motion t o adi ourn,as is traditional,for t he E ~ s t e r recess- it is not one week?as I under st and E!ster 1.1.02

··arch ..,., .:....J' 1973 '' R . H I C K!·l.l\tl : Taoe 307 ~ I -? ~0nday is a holidav-for four days,which will mean ~onday, Aoril 3rd. at 2:00. ~~0... SPEAKER: Hen. Leader of the Qpposition. '·1R. '!.~. ~ni·!E: '•1 r . Speaker , have to preface my question by a short oreamble. That, Sir, is not a tradition in th;s !louse to adjourn t~e :•ouse for tsn days, Sir, and we in the Opposition orotest most vehe~ently. Three 11eel:s after the House is called to~ ether and after a disastrous 3udget - :l e a r , H e a r ! ~iR. ~1 .i~.

ROwE: - tile Premier ot tni s t'rovwce 1eav1ng we Province, Sir, and closing down tnis House for two weeks - i·\R. SPEAKER: Order, please: '·'R. HICK"A~l: Point of Order ! The rules are verv clear and explicit and the ~on. Leader of t~e 0onosi- tion kno1·1s that there can be no de~:ate on a ouestion. If the ' han. gentleman has a supplementary question I would be more than happy to try and answer it. rlR. SPEn.KER: 'Jrder, olease. MR. W.N. ROWE: I have a supplementary question, Mr.

Speaker. wanted to ask one or two important nuestions of the Premier,so I would like to ask the Deputy Premier in the absence of the PreMier, when the Premier is goinn to back in this Province? !she <;oinr. to be bad l'.•ith the !'(1us:: of ;l.ssembl;t ooens t\-10 1:eeks fron now, the House have beinn ooen- ed for t!l~ee 1-1eeks and r.o•:t it is closed for h:o •.·1eeks anri t i1 e P r e" i e r d o •·1 n S o u t !1 • ' ! !1 en i s h e corn i n .., !:1 a c k , S i r . s o t h at we in the House can ask the rrenier of this Province some very important questions affectinq the best interests of the people of the Drovince ?

SrJ~'E H''N. '·'E'1i3Er,s: IJh, Oh~ 11.03 I• ~

!1arch 23, 1978 Taoe 397 D~J - 3 :~r. Speaker, "'hen the :1on. House sits again nine and a half days hence the han. the Premier, as far as ':R. SPE,,KER: knowtwill be in his seat. Han. ~ember for LaPoile. ''r. Sreak2r, I '~ave a aues- tion for the •:inister of Health, Sir. ;.;auld the r.1inister infor:.i the ~ ~ c:us2 if the oo~ratino budGet vet for t:1P. !i-2a l th Science Cor.E>l ex and the continuation of t'le "orest ::!oad General :-:ospital have been aonroved bv 0overn~ent ·f :;~. SPEAKER: H on . ~· i n i s t e r of '~ e a 1 t h • :·~ R • H • C n L L I:! S : ·· r.

Speaker, there has he en a considerable amount of work after having taken p:ace within the past ~onth when ~e became aware o f the fact t h c; t t i1 e ~: o: a l t 1 Sci en c e s Com p 1 ex \'' o u l d i n deed ~ e r ~ad 't for oocni;1g sometime in :1ay. \!e have alread_v gone our record,at least I have as ~inister of Health,indicating that we would be phasing in the opening of the Health Sci en c e s Com p l ex . \I e ~~ o u l d not be open i n q a 11 of the beds which are available t~ere because of the restraints ~eriod in which we are living.

We have also undertaken to provide certain types of rehabilatative services at the old Forest Road facility,commonly referred to as tne General Hospital. The bud~ets tu my kno ~Jlerl~e, :1r. Soeaker, the buagets are still in the process of being arrived at . There is an amount of money, of course ·, r:ade available in the overall block sum for ooeratinq hospitals in the budget,but the exact amount I could not tell the han. mewber but I can certainly 11.04 I J ~.

:·larch 23, 1978- Tape ;;o . 398 :11·1 - 1 i!R. a. COLLI:NS: out the exact amount I could not tell the han. member. but I can certainly get it for him, the exact atr.ount 1~hich Hill be required for the Health Sciences Complex and also what we project to need for the old Forest Road facility. I have not got that ~t my finger tips but I will certainly get it. !-!R. imARY: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. :·IR. SPEAKER: A supplementary.

NR. ~lEARY: Would the han. minister then tell the House, in view of the fact that the budgetary requirements to get the Health Sciences Complex phased in, as the minister put in 7 and to continue to operate the old General Hospital, would the minister indicate how the government is going about recruiting staff, nurses and nursing assistants and staff for the Health 3ciences Comolex if they do not know "-'hat the budget of the Health 3ciences Complex is going to be1 Or are they in act~al fact recruiting staff1 liR.. H. COLLINS: Nr.

Speaker, as the hen. member knows full well, the hospital board has the responsiblity for hiring and firing of staff. TI1ey have compplete authority and autono~y in terms of what staff they will need within the budgetary requirements. Unlike the past administration, Mr. Speaker, where the General Hospital and a lot of other institutions in this Province were loaded up with people at the bequest of a certain member or members, today all of the boards operate with completeiutonomy and are doing a good job and appreciate the freedom which they have. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, l1r. Speaker. :·IR.

SPZAKER: A further supple~entary. :O!R. NEARY: :lr. Speaker, would tile hen. gentleman indicate to the House whether the board has been told how much money they are going to get and how much staff they can employ at the Health Sciences Complex and how many beds in actual fact will be used, how many are ready to be used? Because, Mr. Speaker, the reason I asked the minister that, there seems to be great concern that the number of hospital beds are going to be reduced. !~ell,t~ill there be bees used l1.05

ilarch 23, 1978 Tape Jo . 398 ::r.r - 2 iffi, NEARY: at the Health Sciences Complex and beds used at the old General Hospital? Does the board know how much money they are going to get? How many beds will be actually used at both institutions and how many staff? Or do they know how many staff they can hire? MR. H. COLLINS: Hr. Speaker, as I told the han. member if he had listened-but I suppose it is difficult for one to listen and speak at the same time, at least it is for that hon. member- I said they were phasing in the operation at the net; Health Science Compl~x.

I believe that we have agreed to opening all of the· beds with the exception of fifty, fifty or sixty. I might be held - he might hold me to this.and I am not sure of tnat fig~re, but somewhere around fifty or sixty beds which will give them, as I understand it, an equivalent number of beds t>~hich are now in use at the old For~st Road facility. There will be no acute care type beds operated at the Forest Road facility other than beds which ~;e are under contract with the Department of Veterans Affairs, commonly referred to dawn there as t~e DVA Pavillion.

But in terms of acute care type beds, none of those will remain open at the old Forest Road. :·1R. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A further supplementary. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, am I right in assuming, perhaps the minister can straighten me out on this, that the total capacity at the monent of the General Hospital down on Forest Road is 504 beds , is that correct? ~ 1R. :·l.N. ROlfE: He does not kno~;. :l:R. ]. 'COLLic~S: Ho, it is not that many. l!R. NEA...'lY: The ~:~inister does not h.-now. HR. H. COLLL'IS: No, I do not know. :1R. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in that case I can only assume that it is 504 because I read it somewhere recently. NIL H. COLLINS: Well all right, we will assume it is . 11.06 .j . ;; i: f I

:larch 23, un Tape Ho. 398 :-n: - 3 ER. ~EARY: Is it also my understanding that on the fourth floor of the Health Sciences Complex~ 168 beds will be ope~~ and on the fifth floor there is provision for the same number, 168 beds , but 38 of those are not yet completed. Which means, Hr. Speaker, that when the phase in period is over there will be a total of 353 beds in use at the Health Sciences Complex, as opposed now to 504. \Till there be a reduction in the number of beds~ This is what I am trying to get at. Can the minister straighten me out on that very serious matter? MR. H. COLLINS: Hr.

Speaker, the han. member is playing around with figures •. I just finished saying that an equivalent number of beds at the new Health Sciences Complex for acute care purposes, an equivalent number of what we have at the General Hospital in operation will be operated in the new facility. If the hon. member wants to mess around tdth figures - he has probably spent all last night doing a bit of research on· the number of beds at the General Hospital. If I asked him how many beds were at the hospital in Churchill Falls he would not know either. There are a number of hospitals around. HR.

NEARY: Oh yes, I do, yes. c!R. H. COLLINS: What I am saying, Hr. Speaker, is that this government has agreed, and we have had numerous meetings, and my staff has, with the hospital board of the General Hospital Corporation, and also people from the university, and we are going ahead with the opening on a pha s ed in basis of the Health Sciences Complex \vhen it is finished and we are told by Public Works that it to1ill be finished someti :m.: in Hay and be ready for opening.

The old Forest Road facility will discontinue as an acute care type facility, oti1er than we will provide the services, for which we have - ~ .. : 11.07 ,,. .

March 23, 1978 Tape 399 PK - 1 MR. H. COLLINS: a contract and an agreement with the Department of Veteran Affairs, we will provide the services to the DVA Pavillion. Other types of services at the old General Hospital on Forest Road will be determined during the next few months to make sure that we use that facility to the best possible use, and also take care of the main needs of people in the rehabilitative field. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. member for Stephenville. MR. CANNING: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (DR.

COLLINS): One further supplementary, and then I will recognize the hon. member for Stephenville. MR. CANNING: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Health. Number one is, has his department done any monitoring or any check on the waiting lists at the three main hospitals in St. John's since the closing of the 200 hospital beds? And is he aware that at the.moment there are 3,376 Newfoundlanders who need hospitalization on the waiting lists of those three hospitals, the highest one being the Grace, which has 2,078 names over there waiting to get into hospital? Is he aware of it?

And has he kept any check on that during the year,like I did? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker- you do not want to get up on your desk now,do you,and start jumping?- Mr. Speaker, because of budgetary restrictions last year we decided that the hospitals had to do their little bit to go along with all the rest of us. The budgetary restrictions which we imposed on the hospitals required them to close approximately 200 beds across this Province.

We made sure that the burden was distributed, and one of the first hospitals to close beds was the Gander Hospital in my hometown. We went around the country, the Island part of the Province and into Labrador,and the 200 beds,when we found out just what the implications were, the 200 beds were 11.08

March 23, 1978 Tape 399 PK - 2 Mr. H. Collins: distributed all around this Province. St. John's hospitals were required to close beds the same as other communities were. What the han. member refers to now is waiting lists.

I am not a doctor and the han. member is not a doctor either, but I am sure that if he would talk to.some people in the medical field they will confirm what I am going to say, and that is this, Sir, that every hospital across Canada, every hospital across the United States, in fact every hospital in the world have waiting lists which are determined by the size of the hospital, it could be anywhere from 500 to 5,000 depending upon the size of the hospital.

Every doctor, every surgeon in this city and every surgeon in every other city, every surgeon in any area of medical referrals will tell you that he has got a waiting list maybe of 700 or 800 or 1,000. ~ffi. NEARY: Do not be so foo~is~! MR. H. COLLINS: It is all pretty relative, Mr. Speaker. But let he say this,th7re is no one in this Province, and I say no one, Sir, who are suffering from an emergency point of view, the need for emergency surgery because they cannot find a hospital bed. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. H.

COLLINS: There could be a number of people who might have some difficulty in getting in because elective surgery is not considered of any emergency nature, they could have to wait a month or two months or three months. But what I am saying, Mr. Speaker, is that waiting lists are found everywhere,in the doctor's office and in the hospitals.

I will tell the han. member in the meantime that when we did close the beds we did establish a Review Committee, if han. members will remember, and the Review Committee was made up of the Deputy Minister, who is a medical doctor in my department, a representative from the Newfoundland Hospital Association, and a representative from the Medical Association,so

March 23, 1978 Tape 399 PK - 3 Mr. H. Collins: that a continual review could be made day by day, and up to this time, Mr. Speaker, I have received no indication that the closures of the hospital beds co which I referred have had any detrimental affect on the health care of Newfoundlanders. AN HON. MEMBER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! · I said I would recognize the hon.member for Stephenville, This does not preclude further supplementaries to previous questions. The hon. member for Stephenville. MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Finance.

The Budget which was brought down on Friday stated that SO per cent of the sales tax on mobile home is exempt from taxes. Will this exemption apply to Atlantic Design homes as well? MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The bon. Minister of Finance. MR. A. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I cannot off the top of my head giv~ the definition of a mobile home as contained in the Act, and as I do not know the type of home that Atlantic Design constructs, obviously I am not in a position to give, to particularize as it relates to one taxpayer in the Province.

But I most assuredly will find out for the han. gentleman from the officials in the Department of Finance as to whether or not that particular taxpayer falls within the exemption contained in the Act. l:liO

:·larch 23,1978 Tape No. 400 AH-1 :•IR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for \.Jindsor-Buchans ~fa !lowed by tile hon. member for LaPoile arui ti1e hon, membet for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir and the hon. member for Terra Nova. HR. FLIGHT: l-!r. SpE>aker, my question is for the ;•!inister of Tourism.

In view of the large budget that the minister has got to administer this fiscal year,and I am thinking particularly in terms of the $13 million federal agreement, the DREE $13 million commitment for the development of the tourist potential in Newfoundland in the coming years, can the minister indicate to the House if any of those funds are going to find their way into Central Newfoundland to develop the tourist potential of Central Newfoundland? I am thinking particularly of the Badger, Millertown, Buchans Junction,Buchans area• HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. }JR, ~IORGAl_,: Mr.

Speaker, in reply to that questian,as the han, gentleman is prob!ibly aware the agreement signed with the federal Depart::lent of Regional Economic Expansion is laying emphasis on two areas of the Province,. the Burin-!lonavista Peninsula area and the Great Northern Peninsula,.these two areas.

That is part of the agreement; the other parts in regard to promotion and development of the tourism industry in general applies to all over the Province, but that is the federal agreement, In regard to the amount of money available this year from the provincial government 1 which is,as I pointed out,a record budget,there will be funds available for all parts of the Province where we can help and aid the tourism industry in general. MR. FLIGHT: Hr. Speaker. <m.. SPEAKEk: A supplementary , the original questioner. dR. FLIGHT: I will try to be more specific for the minister in this particular question.

The minister is aware I presume that any recommendations made to goverruaent to shore up the economy of the Buchans area when and if the mine closes is based on the development of tourist potential,and I understand that the agreement signed with the federal government is a five year agreement. My specific question 1.1.11.

;·larch 23,1978 Tape No. 400 AH-2 dB .• FLIGHT: is is tne minister recognizing the recommendations that tourism is one of the big hopes for the Buchans area? And is the administration prepared to use some of those funds in the tourist sector because there are not very many sectors that can be developed to guarantee Buchans some viability? Tourism is one we are looking for and being a five year agreemeat specifically will the minister be using some of the funds to shore up the economy of Buchans by developing the tourist potential in that area? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HR. ;-roRGA;:l: ;1r.

Speaker, in relation to the Buchans area of the Province,recently at a meeting with a large committee from the Buchans area, myself being one of the ministers that met with that committee,! then indicated to the committee that I would like to see them form a tourism commission or a tourism committee from Buchans and t~. Don Read indicated then this would be done in the next number of weeks.

That was approximately three weeks ago and I then indicated to them I would like to sit ' down, myself and the officials of the Department of Tourism,and discuss with them any prospects of ideas that they can come forward with in the hope we can get something moving in Buchans in regards to tourism this year. MR. SPEAKER: There are other questions. I will recognize one further supplementary. The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: A supplementary to the Minister.

As the minister is probably aware there is very little tourism or tourist industry on the Labrador Coast or in the whole Labrador for that matter. I wonder if the minister is prepared to start a plan or an overall plan of development of tourism in Labrador·, specifically since many people who do come at the moment do not return sin~e they first of all do not want to ever go back on the CN vessels again,such as the Bonavista, tourists generally do not want to travel that way, and secondly,they do not want to travel in single-engine planes or aircraft.

I am wondering if the minister is interested in trying to develop some type of tourism on the Labrador Coast which is one of 11.12 b I l

March 23,197 .8 Tape No . 4.00 Ali- 3 HR. STRACHAN: tile mosc beautiful areas in this Province? ~. SPEAKER: The hon . lllinis ter . MR. HORGAN: flr. Speaker , this minister recognizes as do the officials of the Department: of Tourism - in fact my predecessor as well , the fermer lli.nister of Tourism -chat there is a great pocential for tourism development in Labrador.

In fact, I will be placing some emphasis , as in~e ed di d my predecessor,on the possibility of establishing a .major couri.;t iruiustry in Labrador and attracting to Labrador the Europeans more so than Lhe USA or cue americans, in particular those people from Germany who have indicated a very definite interest in travelling to Labrador,and the f ishing and the hunting asp ects of the Labrador and what it ilas to offer.

In connection with the tourist indu.stry this year for .Labrador,! am very ci.isappointed , as I indicated recently publ.ically,with the C~ Ma.rine 1 s delay or che federal government: 1 s delay j. 1113

March 23, 1978, Tape 401, Page 1 -- apb MR. MORGAN: in establishing a ferry service again this year to Labrador from the Island part of the Province. I know a boat is now being modified,but I am of the firm opinion that service will not get going until probably too late to capitalize on the peak tourist season this year. MR. SPElll<ER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I want to get back to the Minister of Health, Sir, on a most serious matter that was raised earlier during the Question Period today, and that is in connection with the waiting lists of people who are waiting to get into hospitals here in St. John's; 3,376 Newfoundlanders are on the waiting lists of the General Hospital, St. Clare's and the Grace. Could the minister identify the kind of patients, the kind of surgery or medical attention that these people require? And where are they located? Are most of these people in St. John's or outside St. John's?

And how can the minister assure us, when the minister did not even know there was a waiting list, how can the minister assure us that none of these people are suffering because they cannot get into one of these three hospitals? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman knows full well that if I took all the people working for the Newfoundland Hospital Association and the people from the Medical Association and put them together and gave them a six month assignment, they would not be able to come up with the answers which the hon. J .I member wants me to give.

If you are going to look at every person and every waiting list of every doctor in this city, and all the hospitals in this city and try and determine what type of surgery each individual 11.1.4 i i

March 23, 1978, Tape 401, Page 2 -- apb MR. H. COLLINS: requires in a hospital, my goodness! there are not people enough in this building to do that. What I have told the hon. member, Mr. Speaker, and I repeat it again, is that last year we established a Review Committee made up of Dr.

Klipper~ who is the Deputy Minister of Health, a ,representative whom I cannot name, his name avoids me at the moment, a representative from the Newfoundland Hospital Association and a member from the Newfoundland Medical Association,and those people were required to review the circumstances at all the hospitals where beds had been closed and that includes all the major hospitals around the Province.

In the event that there was any danger at all where the health care delivery system might be impeded or if there is any danger ih terms of the public interest, then they would report to the minister and, of course, I would report to government and we would take the appropriate measures to correct that situation. I can honestly say, Mr. Speaker, that with one single exception, that of Grand Falls, there has been no representation made to me .. j indicating that there have been any ill effects found in terms of health care anywhere in Newfoundland. I could also say with regard to Grand Falls, Mr.

Speaker, that sometimes we find the people from other parts of the country have had to go into Grand Falls for whatever reason I do not know. But I know what the hon. member is up to and it is a bit of a scary situation and if someone keeps saying it often enough they will - MR. NEARY: A point of order, Mr.Speaker. MR. H COLLINS: they will convince some people in this Province that we do not have a good health 11.15

March 23, 1978, Tape 401, Page 3 -- apb MR. COLLINS: system. MR. NEARY: A point of order! f1R. SPE.AKF.R : A point of order nas arisen . '1R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, Your Honour knows full well that you cannot assign motives to hon. members of this House. The hon. gentleman said a few moments ago, Your Honour heard him, that the hon. gentleman knows what I am up to. Mr. Speaker, I ask Your Honour to ask the hon. gentleman to retract that. It is unparliamentary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : Order, please! MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : Order, please !

I feel that this can be ruled on. Before ruling I would like to point out to hon. members that any points of order that come up do come out of the time for Oral Questions. I understood the hon. minister to say that, "I understand what the hon. member is getting at." That is the impression I got. I would feel that a point of order is not at issue here. MR. NEARY: A point of order, Sir. The hon. gentleman said that he knew what the hon. member for LaPoile was up to, that sooner or later there was going to be - and the hon. gentleman was on the verge of saying somebody will die because of this waiting list.

That is what the hon. gentleman was going to say, Sir. He knew what I was up to, and if that is not - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I ask for the protection of the Chair. MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : Order, please! 1116 t ' i p•r t.

March 23, 1978, Tape 401, Page 4 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : I have made a ruling on the matter and I do have to point out to the hon. member that in Question Period the rulings of the Speaker are neither debatable nor subject to appeal. The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I still have not finished my question to the Minister of Health, Sir. I just raised a point of order when the minister was answering my question. MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : Order, please! I thought the hon. minister had finished answering. If the hon. minister has not I recognize the hon. Minister of Health. MR. H.

COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, what I was leading up to w~s that the han. member is trying to show that because of the hospital bed closures that some people in this Province are not getting the type of hospital service, hospital treatment which they need. Nothing could be further from the truth. What I was about to say, if this is said often enough some people might indeed believe it. 11.17 I t

March 23, 1978, Tape 402, Page 1 -- apb MR. H. COLLINS: But, Mr. Speaker, I am convinced from the information that I am getting from my officials, and from the Medical Association of this Province, and from the Hospital Association of this Province,that indeed there has been no impairment in terms of the delivery of health care in this Province resulting from the closure of 200 hospital beds. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. H. COLLINS: And for hon. members to keep saying there is, Mr. Speaker, is deceitful. MR. SPEAKER (Collins) : Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : Order!

Order, please! I have indicated I was calling order, if you will permit me. I think the word 'deceit' does have connotations that relate to motives and I would ask the hon. minister if he would withdraw that word. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I am not one of those who have been noted for ten years for making statements like that and being requested to withdraw, but if it is offensive to those over there I will certainly withdraw it without any doubt in the world at all. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman has to withdraw it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! As I understand it, the hon. minister has withdrawn.

The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : A supplementary question. I had indicated I would recognize the hon. member for Terra Nova. We can come back if time permits. 1118 i I -'

March 23, 1978, Tape 402, Page 2 -- apb MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, this question is for the Minister of Tourism in view of the tremendous effort and the tremendous emphasis that is put on the development of the tourist potential, in my district the very obvious and natural thing to do in view of the proximity of all the communities to the Terra Nova National Park, and the question has to do with the golf course.

Sir, in view of the ma~y delays and cancellations, almost, with respect to the proposed golf course for the Terra Nova National Park, and in view of efforts by certain federal politicians who almost suggest that my constituents do not know a golf club from a crannick, in view of this, Sir, I wonder if the minister can categorically and emphatically assure this House that the golf course will go within the boundaries of the Terra Nova National Park and hence within the Terra Nova district? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker,first of all I do not ' ~now which M.P. referred to the han. qentleman's constituents in that manner. I think it was the hon. gentleman for Gander - Twillingate,unfortunately. But the situation is that the golf course will _be going into the hon. gentleman's district. That is definite.

There are two sites being looked at and considered and, of course, the Department of Tourism, the Newfoundland Government engaged the consulting firm Development Planning Associates from Halifax, who are well known for this kind of work, and this work was carried out over the past three weeks: A study on the two sites - call it a feasibility study · - ~ one location is in the community of Terra Nova and the other is in North West River near Port Blandford. So the golf course will be going into one of these two locations. With regard 1119 J T

March 23, l978, Tape 402, Page 3 -- apb MR. MORGAN: a ·~r~l deCiSiOn nPinn made on the location, the report from the consulting firm was made to me, and a briefing was made as well on Monday past of this week,and a decision will be made by the Department of Tourism and the provincial government in the next number of days, hopefully between now and the end of March at the latest, the end of this month. I will then be meeting with my counterpart in Ottawa, the Federal I1inister of Indian and Northern Affairs,relaying our decision on the location based on the recommendations of the consulting firm.

Then as far as I am concerned it is a matter of going full speed ahead and getting the golf course going this year. MR. LUSH: How soon does the minsister expect it? MR. MORGAN: Well I am hoping to get a meeting with the minister responsible, Mr. Faulkner, the hon. Hugh Faulkne~ sometime in the month of April so we can pass our decision on to him. Hopefully he will concur with our decision on the location and then we can get the project moving in the Spring. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : Order, please! Time is just about expired.

I feel I should give the floor to the hon. member for St. George's (Mrs. Mcisaac) who has been anxious to get a question in for some time. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MRS. MCISAAC: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question, Mr. Speaker, is for the Minister of Health. In going back to the Budget Speech,it is mentioned that the department will introduce a ward fee of $3 per day up to a maximum of 15 days or $45. My question to the 1120 f I t y.

March 23, 1978, Tape 402, Page 4 -- apb MRS. MCISAAC: ministe r is would this be on a 15 day admission basis one time or could thi s be a $45 maximum for the year or, for instance, would a patient have to pay each time he or she entered hospital? Because we have patients right across the Province who spend probably six or seven months out of a year in hospital. MR. NEARY: In and out. MR. MCISAAC: In and out, yes. MR. SPEAKER(Collins) : The hon . Minister of Health. 1121 ' l ~ ,< I

~'arch 23, 1978 Tape 403 F.C - 1 l1R. H. COLLINS: Hr . Speaker, that is a very good question and it relates to something which the department officials have been working on for a number of days in conjunction ~ri.th the hospitals and the Uedical Association. l•7hat the final arrangement will be I do not know because it is - 1·7hat! vlhat! ~ffi. H. COLLINS : Hill the hon. members he quiet, ~[r. Speaker? This lady asked the only sensible question this nom in!!' from that side of the House. ru'l 110~1. ~ffiEP.: Fear, hear! HR. H.

COLLINS: The matter is still under review because the Budget, of course, did not entail all the technicalities. l·7hat we hope is t;hat if ~ n!'>rSoT' is arlmitt"Pd to a hospital, after fifteen days well then there is no charge at the ward level. In the event that the person is re-admitted on a future date for reasons related to the cause in the first place,then,of course, we would not charge the person the three dollars. Now there could very well have to be some arrangement made whereby we would make this provision apply over a period of sixty days, it might be one hundred days or whatever.

These are medical matters which we are working out. But it is a very good question, one which concerns us, and I can assure the hon. member that we will be giving it very careful consideration and whatever decision ue come to will be in the best interests of everybody. ~IRS. ~'ciS.\AC: ~!r. Speaker, could I have a surplementary? Oh, oh! '-fJ'.. c!:AP.Y : The minister knows hi? policy is disastrous . ORDEBS OF TRE DAY HR • 1-!IClG'k'l : }lotion 6. Motion, the hon. the Ninister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The nistrict Court Act," (Bill No. 16), carried. 11.22 ·' . I

1-rarch 23, 1978 Tape 403 EC - 2 On motion, Bill ~To. 16, read a first time, ordered read a second time presently by leave. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Hhole. ~lr. Speaker left the Chair. !-!R. Cl!A I !U-lAN: (Young) Order, please! The hon. ~emher for Stephenville. :fr. C:hairman, I just have ~. question dealing with the De?artment of Finance regarding Labrador Linerboard. Could the minister indicate to this House if the close-down clause of Labrador Linerboard has exceeded the original estimated amount, an~ if so, by how much? The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: If I could take the liberty of that thing on behalf of the minister, the cost of moth ballinp,, of close down, did indeed exceed the original estimate. By how much, I do not have it. I asked the deputy minister of the department involved to provide the information for me. It has not arrived here as yet so I am afraid we will have to wait until they compile it, or until we get into the detailed estimate. But it has exceeded the original estimate. The exact amount I do not have available unfortunately. ~. ~!cNEIL: Mr.

Chairman, is the minister saying that it has exceeded the amount that is put in the revised edition, of $34,500,000, 'men the moth balling process of last year's budget ,.;as estimated at approximately under S27 million? Mtt. DOODY: No, Your Honour, To the best of my kno~vledge this is the amount that has been used as the revised amount, but without the amount that has been put in there, whether that number has changed since this was compiled is something that I have not been able to clarify and that is why I haye begged the :lndulgence of the Rouse until I get the actual~definitive figure.

That may vary a little, but I cannot be sure. But I think that we are fairly close on that $34 million. 11.23 1

Harch 23, 1978 Tape No. 404 ~H - 1 1!-IR. ~ICNEIL; Hr. Chairman, so that will include the consultant fees, the amounts that other departments are using right now try to sell the mill? \Hll that show up in this overall cost? I am trying to get the overall figure for the closedown of Labrador Linerboard. }iR. DOODY; Yes, that I what I tried to provide and that is why I am being very cagey in giving out data. I do not want to mislead you or misinform you on this. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Hr. Chairman, the hon. member for Stephenville (Mr.

McNeil) last year, Sir, raised a very interesting point in connection with the Linerboard mill, that it would cost more to keep it closed than to keep it operating. ,'lo~J has this been the experience of the administration that in actual fact it has cost more to close it down and it will cost more to keep it closed than if they had kept it running? I would like to get the answer to that question. And another question I would like to pu~ to the minister, there is a police investigation going on, and has been ongoing for a couple of years, I believe, in connection with certain aspects of that mill.

Now what has happened to the investigation? Is it called off since the mill closed? Is the investigation still going ahead? If so,when can we expect a report? Or is the report in? What is happening in connection ~<1ith the RCHP investigation involving the RCiW commercial fraud squad? HR. CHAI:U!A..\1; The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. ~lR. DOODY: I would like to deal 1'ith the first part of the question. The estimates of keeping the mill open and the cost of closing it down were at that time a matter of controversy.

It was contended that it would cost more in the short term to close it than it would to keep it open. I guess if you were to apply to a month or a period of several months that would have been true and is true. If you apply it to a year or two year operation then there is no question 1124

~1an;,'1 23, 1978 Tape No. 404 :m- 2 NIL DOODY: at all that it costs a great deal less to close down and 1110thball the mill th,an to keep it operating. The cost of the Linerboard market has unfortunately continued to drop since the close down of the mill and the return for the product,had we continued operaticn,would have been one of continued loss and I am afraid that it would have been a continued burden.

So unfortunate though the decision was,it appears in retrospect to have been the right one, particularly in the light of the progress that has been made in negotiations for a revitalization of the mill under a different product line. And as to the investigation of the RCHP, there was only one that I am aware of which dealt with one of the employees out there but the Hinister of Justice may be in a better position to answer that than I am, if he would. HR. HICKHA.c'l": Hr.

Chairman, hon. gentlemen will realize that I have to be very careful and very guarded in referring to any investigation that is ongoing into any matter by the police. But it is a fact, it was in the press, that the RCMP had initiated an investigation into some aspect of an operation in Stephenville. To my knowledge that investigation, which like all· of that type of investigation involving primarily the assessment of figures, is long, lengthy and tedious. To my knowledge it is still ongoing and certainly to my knowledge there have been no instruction at all to either slow down or stop the investigation.

The hon. member for Port au Port. HR. !!ODDER: Nr. Chairman, just a few co=ents to the }!inister of Education and perhaps an overall question that in light of the protest that is taking place across this Province because of teacher layoffs and the restraints put on education through the Budget, is the minister prepared to change his mind and perhaps lighten the burden on some of the school boards? Mr. Chairman, education has been set back in this Province by twenty years because of the budgetary restraints that have been placed on school boards, on students and because of the before 1125 .l ! ~-

:!arch 23, 1978 Tape ~io . 404 :-m. HODDER: mentioned teacher layoffs. I can understand, 1.126

March 23, 1978 Tape 405 PK - 1 MR. J.HODDER: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Premier who leads this government and is responsible for all the decisions 1 he spends as much time away from the Province as he does in, and much of his education took place outside of this Province, but the Minister of Education,! cannot understand the Minister of Education, a person who was a superintend~t of a school board, supposedly a progressive educator,coming into this government and becoming the weakest minister that the government has ever seen, the weakest. Minister of Education I suppose since the 1900's- - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HODDER: - not only has the minister allowed the Cabinet to bamboozle him into cutting back in one of the most necessary departments, and cutting back the spending in his department, but, Mr. Chairman,he does not go out and talk to the groups in this Province who have asked him to come and see them, and to explain why he has done it.

And the only thing that the minister can say is,' Yes, I feel that the teacher cutbacks will not effect the quality of education in this Province; I feel that the .I budgetary restraints will not effect the school boards in this Province;but he has made no attempt whatsoever to go and meet with groups. I think he met with one group that came in here, the other groups he has not. He has not taken any effort to go throughout the Province and to explain what has happened. Now, Mr.

Chairman, first just looking at the school busing, The school boards last year paid 5 per cent of the school busing, which came to about $600,000. This year they are going to be required to shell out something like $1.2 million. The Chairman of the school boards, or the Confederation of School Boards has said, the Reverend Mr. Bellamy was quoted as saying that the school boards are not getting enough now, and with the added burden on school busing some school boards may not be able to make it. Now I ask the minister where are-the school boards going to get their money? Will the minister bail out?

They only have two sources of reve~ue: First, there are grants 1127

March 23, 1978 Tape 405 PK - 2 Mr. Hodder: from the government, and there is the school taxation. Does this mean that if a small school board finds that they cannot continue through the year and that they are facing bankruptcy, does this mean that the minister will bail out the school board? Or does it mean that the school boards will have to go to the Tax Authorities, and to the already over-taxed Newfoundlanders that the school tax will go up, I am afraid, Mr.

Chairman, I have talked to several school boards, I said, "What are your options?" And one of the options is to go to the School Tax Authority and ask them to raise their assessment, and that is not going to be accepted very much. Well,that is the other side of this Budget, Mr. Chairman. Now, Mr. Chairman, the school boards are caught in particular circumstances; the enrollments are going down but at the same time the grants are going down. As the enrollments go down the grants go down, and the costs are going up.

It does not matter because the Department of Education gives grants to school boards because of the number of students that attend schools that is covered by that paricular school board, and as the enrollment decreases it does not mean that there is less funds that that school board has to pay out. The • school boards in this Province are in some tight situations. . 1 < Now I am not saying for one minute, Mr. Chairman, that money cannot be saved on education, but this is not the way to do it.

If this g~vernment were going to try to save money on education they have to sit down with the NTA and the school boards and work out the best way to do it, instead of just chopping across the board, cutting out programmes.- I attended a school, Mr. Chairman, which was probably as modern, both in plant and quality of instruction as any in this Province, That school, the Stephenville Integrated High School has industrial arts, home 11.28

~!arch 23, 1978 Tape t.O.S PK - 3 Mr. Hodder: economics, pbys-ed, and all the - some people call them frills, but the necessary parts of educati.on. Nolil, M.r. Chairman, this school is goi ng to have to look at dropping industrial arts, lilhicb the y have had for five years. And what happens, Hr. Chairman, w:i.th all of the statements being made by the Min.ister of Intergovernmental Affairs and the Minister of Industrial Development .who have been making optimistic statements about Linerboard? '·'ell let us look. at the Bay St. George area. lolould the Minister of Education consider freezing I. ~ r . I 11.29

:larch 23, 1978 Tape No. 406 HR. HODDER: the teacher layoffs in that area because, if we can believe the hon. ministers, then in a few months, in six or so months the mill will be starting again and all these people will come back in with no teachers. That is another question. Also, Mr. Chairman, the student aid: the students at the university act in a very, very responsible manner in taking the funds that were to be used for their students building and giving it to the library. But hmv did this government pay them back or reward tr.em? They raised the fees.

They collected another $2 million from them-or saved another $2 million from those students by asking the students to borrow $700 per semester under the Canada Student Loan Act,by requring them to borrow that much. And I spoke to a student the ot~er night and he told me, he said, "I em going to come out of this t:niversity vl·ling f.7 ,000." \!hat has happened to the government's perspective in education?

T'ne Newfoundlander is our most valuable resource,and that the oeoolP ,..,. .. . our resources and we cannot tamper with our education, I know that people are coming out of university and not getting jobs, but let us try to overcome ignorance in this Province, let us try to encourage people to go. :Iy district is not a rich one but I still have a lot of students from the district who go to university and their parents have a struggle to put them there. Now this is going to mean next year - and I know it is going to mean that studer.ts will not be educated in this Province, will not have the chance to - HR.

NEARY: Only the rich. c!R. HODDER: Only the rich, yes. }iR. (lEARY: Sons and daughters of the rich. :·IH.. :!ODDER: Yes,and that is the thems of this government~ Look after the rich. }!R. N'EARY: Look after the rich, their buddies. 11.JO • r

Harch 23 , 1978 Tape No . 406 ID! - 2 ~IR. HODDER: They will not be able to come to the potential which their parents and they wish them to come. Anyhow, Mr. Chairman, this government and th·is Budget -Another thing, the work activity_hooks. How much thought went into work activity books, charging full price for the activity and work books? Now, ;rr. Chairman, if I am a recipient of social assistance -well let us put it this way, if you put the tax on the hard cover, the re-useable books, then I could ~o and buy a second hand book, But this is another one that hits the poor people.

They have to take thesE activity books, they cannot buy them again, they have to pay full price for them. So if you were going to do it why not put it on re-useable books rather than books that cannot be used again. Well anyho~, Mr. Speaker, all I can say is that I feei that - HR. NEARY: Useless, the minister is useless. MR. HODDER: The minister is useless. He has shown his weakness. He has petrayed his ~rofession and I think that this government has, as I said earlier, put education back in this Province at least twenty years. SOHE HON. ~MBERS: Hear, hear! l!R. CHAIRllAl''l': The hon. Hinister of Education. MR.

HOUSE: Hr. Chair=, after listening to that I am wondering just t-•hat has happened in educa ::ion in the past fev years. :<e know that we have been in a restraint period and ~•e knew, like the rest of Canada, that we had co curb spending as much as we possibly could in education. For the people who talk about tne quality of education and what is happening, you know,I just want to point out that in 1972 we had 160,000 pupils in this Provin~e, and we then at that time had 6,400 teacheEs. This year with 156,000 pupils we have 7,800 teachers in the Province. AJ.~ HON. ME}lBER: Too few. 1.1.31. ·( I I· r I

::arch 23, 1978 Tape ~c . 406 - 3 :IR. HOUSE: :low that may be too few but I do not think , you know,that people in the pa.st, government s of t:te past or present preven ted people frou having teachers by vi.rtue of the fact tha t they did not want them to have them. It was because of economic reality. But what I am poiLting out, if that represents lack of quality in educ ation, and particula rly since these 7,800 teachers are very much nore highly qualified and very much high er paid , the n I do not know what ki~d of a messa ge th at is to sovernmen t or to the oublic who ere paying the funds.

The ocher thing is t hat we have also spe nt abou t $120 million in the last sL~ years i n buil ding new fac ilities,and new facilities and well qualified teac hers a re t he basi s on which we ~ould desc ribe, ! think , quality education . Certainly program=es co~ into that and our progr a~e cer tair.ly has not :;one by the way. ~ow -.:e have had a layof!' - it is not a layoff , it is a decrease of 128 teachers due t o c~clinino; enrol!I:l ent. 54 of these were to be gone beca use of the fact tha.t they had gone I bel ow what we considered to be a fa irly good pupil/teacher ratio, ,, . t one to " i . 1:132

furch 23,1978 Tape ~ lo. 407 AH-1 ;.1R. HOUSE : twenty-five,and some boards would loose the total number of teachers they are loosin~ The board that you are referring to I think-that the han. member referred-to would loose their thirteen teachers by virtue of the fact that their population has gone down. Now the fact that I have not met with groups; I think there is one group t;12.t I did not meet with,and it was by virtue of the fact that I did not think it ~as my place to meet with them,and that was a group protesting the cost of building a school. I am always at the call of people for meetings.

If the han. gentleman was referring to a meeting that was in St. John's the other night where it was stated that I was not, I was ready to go to that meeting on two occasions, last Thursday and this ~~~ay night and was phoned by the group and told tl.at this was not the meeting that I was supposed to attend. MR. DI.NN: When they fou_nd out you were going t;1ey cancelled it. NR. HOUSE: They were calling a different meeting. Now with this 128 teachers being laid off,or the decrease,I do not think there is going to be any appreciable decrease in the quality of education.

I have looked at the teacher load in the districts involved and it does seem to me that it is not going to affect too heavily. When you distribute,for instance,a loss of thirteen teachers over just about 1000 teachers it may mean one or two pupils more in some cases that the teacher has to contend vith I think it NOuld be worthwhile for somebody to take a look at the distribution ;ant) to see ho>~ the load is distributed.

Now I am meeting with the NTA today, I am meeting with the Federation of School Boards and I think it is u~fair to say that I refuse to meet with groups across the Province ; an~ of course next week I will be meeting with the total NTA body and discussing the matters with them. The member referred to the fact that the Stephenville area which is his district will possibly be needing more teachers if some activity starts in the mill. Well there 11.33 . i , • ~

narch 23,1973 Tape ~o. 407 AH-2 HR. HOUSE: is nothing to prevent that the only thing you certainly would not put teachers there before the pupils were there. And the fact is that once a school reaches a certain quota of pupils they can get the extra teachers, those are our regulations that pupils will be - when the schools open in September if it is to the boards advantage they will staff their schools on the basis of September's enrollments rather than the previous year.

With respect to student aid I want to point out that we have had the best programme as far as students are concerned for a number of years in that we only require them to take half of the student loan that was available. This year,of course,again in the spirit of restraint we put the student loan in the same context as the rest of the Maritimes where a student will if indeed he can prove ne~d have to borrow $7,000 or thereabout in his career, in his education career.

The only other thing though that we are ~oing we are giving a much larger grant over and above the $700 per semester than any other province in Canada. I cannot say any other province, any province in the Maritimes, at least.

Now I think the policy of the federal government and the provincial government is that no student should be deprived of a university education and I think too, in the spirit it was talked about at the federal level was the fact that if they do come I' I ~ out owing seven thousand dollars I do not think that is an awesome burden particularly in view of the fact that these people will be making a considerable amount of money MR. NEARY: It depends or. your ability to pay . :·IR. DI;~l: We do not have debtor's prison an)'Ulore. :1R. ;-!ORGAli: .~e we better off than Nova Scotia? HR.

IiOUSE: What I am trying to say is do we ~Apect the taxpayers of this Province, a lot of them making the minimum wage and just above , to subsidize totally the education of students who are going to come out 11.34

:~rci1 23,1973 Tape ~~o. 407 AH-3 ~h"l. IIOUSI:: and in five or six years be making a lot more money than they ever hope to aspire to I do not think it is unreasonable to expect students to pay a certain ~aunt for their education and I think a $1400 a year loan is not exorbitant. MR. NEARY: A real Tory philosophy. SO:·IE liON.l-IEHBERS: Oh,oh! t~ ' • . t 11.35

:rarch 23, 1978 Tape 408 EC - 1 MIL CHAIRMAN: (Young) Order, please! MR. HOUSE: With respect to the school board budget, again I mentioned, it was mentioned in the Burlget 1 that goverment would ~e sitting down wit~ school boards and looking at their ~udgetary needs in relation to operations and maintenance. That •~as mentioned in the Budget and what we have given there as an estimate, and 1ve will he sitting down with school boards after the Faster break. I have just been tall:ing to the secretary-treasurer of that board. N01l the other thing is the 10 rer cent for busing.

One of the things that we have found, of course, one time we had 75/25 and 90/10 and then 100 per cent busing 1 and '''e found that busing increased, the number of buses, as the percentage the government paid went VP· From the time, I believe, from 75/25 to 100 per cent busing it almost doubled. There are a lot of boards in the Province, for instance, who think - a lot of people in the Province who think that one mile in-town busing is not necessary.

We still have the regulation but boards do not have to do it, and if that is a measure they can take,to desist from using buses in towns,that is to their advantage and to ours. But in the context of the 10 per cent, of course that is going to he discussed with hoards in relation to their operations and their ~intenance when we meet with them next week, because they have sP.nt in to us a very s•.1bstantial brief.

One other thing tbere, ~!r. r-'!1airr.>.an, ~vas t''e reference that '"as made to the activity worl:books. nne of the thi:1gs brought in a fe•..r years ago \Jas the fact that all books from kindergarten to Grade VIII would be free, and a lot of people felt that this should ~ot have been. I heard it from both political faiths, of course. One of the things that I did not think \Jas envisaged at the time was the possibility of workbooks, because the main impetus in providing free textbooks was that the previous way it was wasteful because students were buying new bool:s every year. And the fact was l1.36 t.

l!arch 23, 1978 Tape 408 zc - 2 ~IR. HOl'SE: that we were still subsidizing these by about 7 5 per cent, because what we were passing on to the students even when they were paying for them was about 25 per cent. So the activity workbook is a book that the student is using, t~ears out and throws away, and we feel it should not come under the ambit of the free textbook which we replace every four years. A?T !ION. HE!BF:R: Hear , hear~ 'IR. HOUSE: And it does represent a fair saving. With respect to the boards ~aving to go to look for money to the school tax authorities, that may be a fact, I do not know.

One board said that they ~Till not have to do it - I heard that the other night. Sut one of the things perhaps it should do is get the school tax authorities to collect more of the levy than they are presently collecting. Now, ~~r. Speaker, I do not know if I have mentioned everything there or referred to everything that the han. member asked.

The only thing I want to say generally is that there is nobody on this side -no government, I think, is very happy with having to cut back or to restrain, but we knew ~th the way that education costs were going, the same as all the services, that we had to take a good hard look at it and cut wherever we possibly could. I think the cuts that are in this Budget are major, but I do not think they are going to impede,in this particular year,the quality of education. I think the continued erosion would do that, but I would be hopeful that that will not be the case. &'l HON. ! !E:·!BER: Hear, hear! NR.

CHAIR! !AN: The han. member for Port au Port. }!R. HODDER: Just a few comments to the Hinister of Education on some of the things he just said. The minister has said over and over again, and I think he was referring to teac~er layoffs. But he said that there are only a few students lost in the classroom so ·a teacher might have a few more students, is that correct? 1137 ; i ..

:larch 23, 1978 Tape 408 EC - 3 :m. HODDER: But the minister ~no ws that that is not true. If a school has dropped in enrollment by twent y s tudents or twenty-five students or twenty-six and they have to replace a teacher, these s tudents do not necessaril y come in a programmed 1138

•:arch 23, 1978 Tane 40a ')" - 1 ~1R. HODDER: way from different class rooms or what.not. What happens to that school is that they drop a teacher and they drop a , program. _Because very often most teachers in this Province work full-time with very few free periods - maybe in the larger schools in the city and whatnot- . but most teachers put in a good days work in this Province; .so what happens is that once you take that one teacher out of its school system then you lose a program and that is what I am talking about,losing programs.

The other thing that the minister was talking about there was the school busing. Now I will agree that there are areas of this Province wi1ere scnool busing is not as necessary as in oth~r areas but you go into any rural district, Twillingate district or Port au Port or any of the rural districts where you have central­ ized high schools and students must come - these are the school boards that are going to hurt most.

And one other thing that I might say about this whole problem is that not all - again I am back to the teacher lay-offs, not all school boards are being treated the same./ For instance there are seven school boards in this Province which are losing the majority of teachers, there are seven more which are not losing any. :-lr. House: Because they have lost pupils. MR.

HODDER: ilecause they have lost pupils. that does not matter ~ They are going to lose programs now, they are not going to be able to maintain programs. ~nu this is the particular time when the government should be looking to giving a better pupil - teacher ratio because the excuse used to be that we cannot give you a better pupil - teacher ratio because we will have to build class- rooms . Now in those schools that is not happening. So l'lhat 1:1..39 . '. ! !. t I "

11arch 23, 1978 Tape 409 DW - 2 MR. HODDER: is happening? If you had a scnool_ with 550 people in it and you droppeo thirty students you might lose two teachers; because there are fractions and everything else involved, _ ~a so the rest of the students in that school have to suffer perhaps the loss of two programs in that particular school. So what I am really saying, Mr. Chairman, is that this is why I said earlier when I was speaking that the minister should have sat down with the school boards and with NTA because it is not all black and white •.

There are schools and children in this Province that are suffering now because of the ministers decision. · understand that ne aid promise the NTA that it \rasa matter of policy to hold with the same teacher..; ~upil ratio as last year and then sudoenly they chop!fed jt do1.;r, and went iJack to the twenty-six. That is it, Mr. Chairman. Mr. CHAIRMAN: Hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, does the hon. Oh, I am sorry, go on - does the gentleman expect to get any answers. AN HON. MEI~BER: I do not know. NR. !lEARY: Okay go ahead. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, Oh! MR. CHAIRMAN(MR.

YOUNG): recognize the ~entleman frow St. John's West. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Chairman, I would like to sort of raise a few comments and maybe ask some questions with respect to the change in the student aid program. What has been happening at the university in the past few years as a result . gradually making it more '. I difficult for people to go to university is that this place has become more and more an•elitest institution, where il feN years ago this institution was the hope of '1140

t1arch 23, 1978 Tape 409 OW - 3 DR. KITCHEN: the whole Province.Every- body all over the Province saw an opportunity say ten or fifteen' years ago to get skills, to better th~ir lot and to go.

The last few years we have seen with more s-:r:ingent student aid programs =and there have been a number of studies to support this- that the institution now has fewer people there fram families which are poor, the large families are not represented at this institution as well as it used to be 7 t.;e familiPc:; from remote area of the Province are not represented there as well as they used to be, it is becoming more and more an elite !nstitution, an urban institution, an institution for small families, well-to-do parents that is what it has become and is becoming. more and more.

Now, this borrowing policy is going to scare off more of that same type of person who needs that institution. ~nn we need that institution to train our people to develop the resources that we were talking about in Private : !'1embers Days ~he last two or tnre~ 1veeks. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, Hear! DR. KITCHEN: We need that institution and it has to be geared in the r.:ight direction.

We need~students comi~g in from t~e Labrador Coast and all the various coastal areas ' · from families which do not have any money as ~1ell as tram tne·­ well-heeled docto~s, lawyers and professors and so on who do have the money to send their kids to university or any­ where else. We need that institution and it has to be gear- ed for the people of the Province. . MK. 1iEARY: Right! 11.41.

llarch 23, 1978 Tape clo . 410 :m - 1 DR. KITCHEN: And at the moment what is happening is that it is becoming an elitest institution and we have the facts to back it up. I refer you to the Parsons Report and other reports that have been produced and are well known in educational circles. We have got this proof. Now then this particular measure of making it more difficult for people to go to university - imagine someone having to look forward to a university career, coming out $7,000 in debt. Good Lord for the average Newfoundlander you do not go in debt.

The average ii'ewfoundlander does not like to go in debt,in rural areas. We like to pay our way. And this is the way we have always been. And now you are going to force them into debt, no, you are not forcing them into debt, you are just frightening them away from this institution and making it more and more an elitest, irrelevant type of institution. Now then the false comparison has been made here, Hr. Chairman, the false comparison has been made here with Nova Scotia. Educationally speaking, this is not Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia has fifteen university institutions. Fifteen.

In everybody's back garden there is an institution called the University of Nova Scotia. Wherever you go there is one. They are all over the place. We have one and a part of another one. We have one and they all have to come in here. It is much more expensive to go to university in Newfoundland and Labrador than it is in Nova Scotia. You can stay home in Nova Scotia and commute - you can live home. You do not have to have any money to go to the University of "ova Scotia because you are there. You can save your board by staying at .home and living with the folks for a little bit longer. Here it is different.

I have done studies on this, Sir, and they are MR. HOUSE: I went to university for ten years. ·i • :1 t well known, the Atlantic Development Board studies, so do not be talking about what you do not know anything about. 1142

}larch 23, 1978 Tape No. 410 N~! - 2 l1R. RIDEOUT: He does not know anything about studies sure. He does not know anything about that. IIR. KITCHEN: Now let me tell you something else. New Brunswick is another place which we should not compare us with. Nova Scotia has more than twice the university participation rate than this Province has. In this Province nobody goes to university. Do you know that? By comparison with other Provinces of Canada people do not go here.

A few years ago the chances of young Newfoundlanders or Labradorians going to university was one third the Canadian average. lfe had one chance, they had three chances, three chances to our one of going to university. And now we have narrowed it down to about two, and now it is going worse. Now then I believe that there are other ways, Nr. Chairman, by which we can spread the university dollar around a bit better. I believe we can. Let me give you a couple of thoughts. There is no point in being negative all the time. lfuat I would like to say is this.

We can provide university type of education which we need to develop this Province, we need all sorts of education, technical education, but I am thinking we also need university education for many many people, and the way to provide that I believe is to look at the present setup and see if we can save money on the present setup.

And just as we looked at,recently, Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and found a lot of fat on that organization, some of which thank God is presently going away from the organization, voluntarily or otherwise, relieving some of that fat, similarly I believe that the ~inistcr should look at the fat at this institutior . of Hemorial University. Wherever there is fat cut it off. But the fat is not on the students. The fat is not on the parents of the rural areas. T11at is not where the fat is. You are cutting the fat off where it is not. You have to trim the fat off the vice-presidency list.

Look at the number of vice-presidents. Gee whiz they have got more vice-presidents and more people on the Board of 1143 ' li f • .i ·t t

:!arc;, 23, 197 8 Tape :lo. 410 :r:J - 3 DR. KITCiU:N: Regents - SQ!.JE HOi'. }!Ei-ffiE~ Hear, hear! DR. KITCHEN: -cut the fat.And you are the ones, Sir, who can cut the fat. lve cannot cut the fat. You can cut the fat. Cut off the fat. There is another suggestion I would make to you too, that we in this Province teach senior oatriculation only in the university. Every other province of Canada has senior 1:1atriculation out in the high schools.

And it is cheaper to do senior matriculation in the high schools, senior matriculation, the first year of university, it is cheaper to cio it out there than to have it done by a professor who works fourteen hours a week teaching. It is much better to have it done by teachers who will do twenty, t~;enty- five hours a week teaching. You pay the man the same amount of money but you get twice as much work out of him.

So 'r would think that 1;hat we have to do is re-explore this idea of putting grade twelve around, in a modest way, very·much like we would have had it in 1971, except the government changed at that time. One of the unfortunate results of the governments changing on the people of ilewfoundland was that we were stuck wit h an archaic system of teaching senior matriculation. And this has to change. So I believe, Mr.

Chairman, that the Uinister of Education can do better than just hurt the students who are going in, and frightening them off from this university and the better way to do it would be to look more minutely at the ~~y this institution is operating and where necessary cut the fat. SOl~~ i'!ON • ; lE!iBERS: !lear, hear! 1144

March 23, 1978 Tape 411 PK - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG) : The han. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: I just want to make a couple of comments, Sir, with regard to the pupil-teacher ratio. It should have been distributed better around the Province, the layoff. But the whole point is that we did have ten boards in the Province who were very upset because they were not having the same pupil- teacher ratio as the people who were having declining enrollments.

And when you see a one to twenty-six ratio in some of these districts, and compare it to some of the others that have had the one to twenty-five the difference in quality does not seem to be that much different. So we would either have had to come with a one to twenty-five right across the board or revert back to one to twenty-six. And with the coming of course lesser pupils we are hopeful that we can get down to a suitable pupil- teacher ratio. With regards to the han. member for St. John's West (Dr. Kitchen) I recognize the fact that there have been a lot of studies done at Memorial.

I was very involved in one of them, about the number of people not coming into University. I would rather suspect that one of the big reasons why a lot of students went to university in Newfoundland,at the peak period when the University was at its height,was because of mainly, basicall~, the opportunities that there were in education at the time, the opportunities there were for teachers because at that time not only were we having a turn over of practically a quarter of our teaching forceJevery year or more than that people were coming back to university and upgrading.

We have reached that peak now and that was one of the big employers of the Newfoundland University students, the teaching profession. r~ 1 ate years ~•e have found that a lot of guidance counsellors - out in the schools, ~nn I think rightly so,are making young people aware of the fact that ·f ~. there is not so much opportunity in the field of education, and that is not only peculiar to Newfoundland - so consequently the big group of students at the University were teachers, now there is 1145

March 23, 1978 Tape 411 PK - 2 Mr. House: Not so much job opportunity. I would also suspect that a lot of people in the lower income bracket are not going to university generally because of job opportunities in all the professions, and they find it perhaps more lurcative now to go to trades college and trade schools.

I submit that perhaps it does place a burden on the students, but the whole student aid programme, the total student aid programme is geared to the young person coming from the lower income bracket, and the young person coming from a large family, it is geared to them and these will be the students who will get the advantage of the basic grant that we give after they have taken the loan, and that can go up, I understand, as high as $2,800 per year. MR. NEARY: Sit down, boy, and do not be so wishy-washy. MR. HOUSE: I am not being wishy-washy I am pointing out the facts. MR. MORGAN: He is giving the facts. MR.

HOUSE: I have been in education too, and I pretty well know the feeling of students, why they are not going to University. It is not just because they cannot afford it, in a lot of cases it is because the job opportunities is better in the trades college and the trade schools. And you will recall that is something that is relatively new in Newfoundland, because it was only fifteen or sixteen years ago that we started to get vocational schools 1 and it was a lot later than that that people found it respectable enough to go there, they sooner would have gone to the colleges.

And now of course with the kind of pay that you can get for the trades a lot more people are going into that. DR. KITCHEN: They have no choice. MR. NEARY: The university is wholly and solely for the sons and daughters of the aristocrats, the snobs - 11.46

~!arch 23, 1978 Tape 411 PK - 3 MR. HOOSE: With respect to the Grade XII thing I have been very concerned about that too . The only problem I have got, I think, the hon. gentleman for St. John's West must know that Grade XII is not the first year university across this Dominion. If you will recall Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick has Grade I to Grade XII. And I would like to see, and I am trying to get that done7 where our Kindergarten to Grade XI stands in relation to that. They are both twelve y~ar programmes. And as far as I can gather at the universities that their Grade XII is accepted the same as our Grade XI. MR. NEARY: Mr . Cha:lrman, 1147 !. t -~ I I l

~!arch 23, 19 78 Tape 412 EC - 1 :!R. HOUSE: l-le had all the research done on it. It shows that our quality of education is lower than in any part of Canada. MR.. !<EA.'R.Y: 1 have a report here by a young lady in the minister's department. She gave me a copy of her report. ~!R. HOUSE: There is no research to show that our quality of education is lower. l!R. NEARY: Our quality of education is going down and down under that minister. c!R.

HOUSE: If you are looking at the report on the reading last year and compare it with the same reading programme, the same kind of research done this year, you will find that our quality of reading is inproving in the schools yearly, and that is one of the important factors, I think. TI1at is one of the things you can look to for a measure of quality, and it is improving yearly. (·IR. CHAIIDWl: (Young) The hon. member for Baie Verte - lo/hite Bay. ~ffi.. P.IDEOJTT : Hr. rhairman, I want to address a fe~~ coD!11lents and a couple of questions to the ?Unister of Transportation and Communications.

I have to make sure that I give the approoriate department because the minister has so ~~ny these days he may get confused and not get on with the questions I am looking for. Nm~, Nr. Chairman, ~~e do not have much time anr1 I cannot go into any great detail, but I c:lo >Jan t to taJ.-.e a minute or so to talk about the allocation of money for highHay construction and reconstruction in this Province this year as contained in the !1udget on pnge 11'1. And I want to talk in a little bit of detail about the $14 million that is allocated for the Trans-l::anada P.igh<~ay. "r.

Chairman, it seems to me that t'1is particular allocation at the moment unless the minister knm's a great deal that he has not shared with us here in the House of Assembly - it seems to me that this is purely Budget by speculation, because on page 111 the minister is also indicating that he is going to receive ~1~,snn,onn from the federal government. 1148

'carch 23, 1<178 Tape 412 EC - 2 :!'~. RIDEOUT: ~'mv- that in any man's mathe·matics, ~r. Chairman, is 75 per cent of what we are oroposing to spen~ ourselves. We have not been told yet whether there is any such thing as a 75/25 deal agreed on bet:tv-een this Province and Otta••a. He hope there is. Ot-viously, ••e ~muld like to get the best deal we can for ourselves from Ottaw·a when it comes to the upgrading of the Trans-Canada Hip,hway, but •·Te do not knm-1, and ••e have every reason to r-elieve that such is not the case yet, }lr. Chairman. So is this Budget by speculation?

Hhat is going to hapoen if in fact Ottawa refuses to sim the 75/25 deal? The $14,500,000 that the minister has in for reconstruction and upgrading and paving of provincial highways•, what is $!:oin2 to happen to that figure? Is that going to be slashed to make up for the difference? i·Till the lvork that is so desoerately needed on the Trat;ts-Canada High.,ay go ahead any.•ay? Can we afford to go ahead uith it? ~~r. Speaker, these are very irn)'ortant questions and I •muld hope that the Minister would give us some indication.

I hope it is not just Budget by speculation, I hope that the minister has something .!-concrete that he can tell us and I lvant to get at it no.v before ••e brea'-: for a \veek or ten days, because there will not be an opoortunity to get at it for such a long period of time. I hope the minister will share with us and enlighten us, Hr. Chairman, as to exactly what is going on with the negotiations relevant to the reconstruction and upgrading of certain sections of the Trans-Canada High1vay. I am sure that there is nobody in this House who 1·70uld not agree wholeheartedly that it is necessary.

It has to be done, but we have not been told yet 1>hat the split is going to be although the minister is budgeting by speculation I would submit on the 75 per cent share that he has in his budgetary estimates in 1705. So I would like the minister to address himself to that when he chooses to respond. I also want to brin~ up one other point at this time, ~!r. Chairman, and that has to do 1dth air services 1149 '"'·

'tarch 23, 1~7 8 Tape 412 EC - 3 '!R. RIDEOUT: 170~ . The minister is budge tin g for helicop ter contracts ~~is year $1 , 74~,100 . I asked the winister a fet·l days ago, ~r .Chairman, to provide me ttl.th the number of people who bid on the new govermnenr helicop ter contract a fet,· months ago. "e knotv it t·1ent t.o Sealand lle1icopters and we know t!lat accor<ltng to the information provi ded in the ~ouse hy the minister ~~s morning for which I am grat2ful - t<Te !:nm• t!:!at the bid tvas $1,55.8,5 ~ 2 the lowest of all the eigi':t !:-ids t hat •.1ere subl'litted . 'But, ' 1r .

Chainnan . ~"ni•1ersal Helicopters who had th~ government contract for so many year s previously tvere the third bidders :·lith Sl,621,()1)1) and tve see L~ the Budget for helicopter contracts not counting the special helicopter charters d o~m on it, but helicopter contracts alone, $1, 7/cf. ,1no - $250 ,ron more t">an the contract: t hat Has sub!:!itted by the lo~est tende r - $ l.~O ,O'lr' anc sor,e oC.d h i &>~e r t~an the con tract suhmitt-ad b7 t::niversal P.elicopters. ~-: oH, ! ~-r. C'hairoan, I as!': the I

March 23, 1978, Tape 413, Page ~ -- apb MR. RIDEOUT: minister what is going on with regard to this hanky- panky deal with Sealand Helicopters~ Are we g~tting our money's worth? The bid is $1.5 million, the appropriation in the budget is one million seven and some hundred odd thousand. What is happening, inflation over a couple of months period? Why is not the helicopter contract in 1708-03-02 saying $1,558,000? Or are we putting in some padding there to help Mr.

Dobbin and his bunch get set up at the expense of Universal Helicopters or somebody else; I do not care whether it is Universal Helicopters or Universal John Doe, Mr. Chairman, as long as he is the lowest bidder and the lowest tenderer and gets the contract on that basis. But there are a couple of hundred thousand or $250,000 more budgeted for it than in fact is the contract. So I would hope, Mr. Chairman, in the few minutes that we have left to us to deal with supplementary supply the minister could enlighten us on those couple of matters and I am sure going to get into greater detail on the Budget debate. MR.

NEARY: Hear, hear~ MR. DOODY: Mr. Chairman, the questions that have been asked by my hon. friend are certainly reasonable ones. The first question pertaining to the Trans-Canada Highway vote and the $14 million which has been budgeted for that purpose; this is not speculative, Your Honour. We are anticipating signing an agreement with the Government of Canada on the Trans-Canada Highway reconstruction. The optimum aim, of course, is to obtain a better than fifty/fifty deal, but it is extremely unlikely that we will be able to manage that.

The other three Atlantic Provinces have already indicated their willingness to sign a fifty/ fifty deal and the Government of Canada has indicated that it is not prepared to go beyond that in our particular case. 11.51. I I t

March 23, 1978, Tape 413, Page 2 -- apb MR. DOODY: What they have offered to do on the programme is what they refer to as front-end- load the agreement so that they will give us seventy-five/ twenty-five on the first year and the fifty/fifty cost sharing will have to be prorated over the remaining two, although we think we can extend that to three years so that there will be an overlap into a fourth year which will use up the total of $60 million which will be available, $20 million a year to be divided over that period of time. Hopefull~we will be able to start this year.

We hope to be on actual physical work to the tune of $14 million and we hope to get that underway in late Summer. There is a considerable amount of preengineering and design that has to be done. Other tha~ that we would have had a larger amount in there. The $14 million seems to be an amount that the engineering people feel is a reasonable assumption to be spent this year.

The seventy-five/twenty-five assumption or mathematical conclusion that the hon. member alluded to is indeed a real one but it should not reflect other than the fact that this is a front-end-loading of an optimum fifty/fifty agreement over a period of three to perhaps four years.

It will mean that the Province of Newfoundland will have to pick up a larger share of the cost in the third or fourth year, but by that time, hopefully, we will have continued to a further degree of finalization of the paving and upgrading and improvement of our own secondary roads, local roads, side roads and trunk roads to the extent that we will be able to allocate more provincial funds to the Trans-Canadaandbe less dependent on the 1 I Government of Canada. In actual fact, of course, J the Government of Canada has no responsibility for the 1152

March 23, 1978, Tape 413, Page 3 -- apb MR. DOODY: Trans -Canada Highway and when they say, You can have 50 per cent or nothing, we are hardly in a position to refuse the 50 per cent and accept nothing. I realize that ours is indeed an unusual case and a different case, and we have made that point to our friends in Ottawa, Mr. Lang and his associates . ~ve pointed out that our rail passenger service is non- existent and that our rail service generally was in pretty poor shape, our Trans-Canada Highway was undoubtedly the worse

section of the Trans-Canada in the Dominion,or in the country and while 1153 i .t . s l • r I

Harch 23,1978 Tape No. 414 AH-1 ~JR. DOODY: much sympathy was offere d , t11ere was nothing further than the fifty per cent available 0 At least it has been indicated by Mr. Lang and his people that they are willing to sign an agreement along the lines taat I have indicated sometime in April when they are here in the Province. To that extent then that budgetary amount that is included there, that $14.5 raillion is not a speculative amount, it is indeed a very real amount and one which we hope will be spent on the very important question of the Trans-Canada Highway.

If we do not get some work done on it this year or next year there will be no Trans-CanGda work done. Now I have asked my friend and associate the han. House Leader to check with tl1e Department of Transportation and Communications to try to find out what the reason is for the variation between the amount in the budget on the helicopter vote and the amount of the tender acceptance which I tabled in the House this morning in reply to an answer. Perhaps that information is available. HR. iilCKMAN: Mav I? MR. DOODY: Would you?Please! Because I quite frankly am not aware of it. MR.

HICKMAN: Pursuant to the request from my colleague the han.

Minister of Transportation and Communications I contacted the appropriate offical in his department on the telepl:lone and asked "1o1hy the amount that the committee will be asked to vote in the main estimates accede by approximately $200,000 the amount shown in the contract that was awarded Sealand and the answer is this-and I guess it should have occurred to be before I phoned _ - the contrac~ is for a fixed number of hours pr.r machine- I believe it is $o00 but that is not too relevant - but it is for ~ fixe d number of hours per machir:.e at the rate shown in the contract.

There is a provision as there must be in those contracts tnat if the machines are used beyond the contract period that a reduced rate is payable for the overtime and this additional money is based on past experience of the Department of Transportation and Communications as to the number of hours required by way of overtime on an average over each year. 11.54 l l . . ! ..! J I

:larch 23,1978 Tape No. 414 Ah- 2 MR. DOODY: I would assume then that the contract into which we have entered with Sealan~ delineates the rate per hour for the overtime hours which was less than the contract rate and also less than the other bidders.

I would assume that the best way to satisy any questions or problems in that particular area would be to tablecopies of the various tenders if that has no;;: already been done • Maybe that will satisfy any questions or suspicions that hon. members ~ght have as to hanky-panky or other such allusions or aspersions that were pointed up • They are certainly available if anybody wants them. HR. CHAIRNAN: Hon. member for LaPoile. :1R.. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to get around to the matters of health on which lwas trying to get some information out of the hon. minister down there ~his morning.

The han. minister has turned out to be a disaster and our health policy in this Province is a complete disaster. we discovered this morning that we have a waiting list in this Province of 3300 men and women , on a waiting list to get into the three tiuspitals in St. John's. I asked the minister if he could assure the House that none of these people were suffering as a result of not be able to get admitted to hospital. First of all the minister did not know there was such a long waiting list.The minister did not k4ow that, then, Mr.

Chairman, the minister did not know until my colleague, the member for Placentia West~1r. Canning) raised it. And so I asked the minister if he could identify where these people are located. Are ·they in St. John's or are they outside of St. John's ? The minister gave me some kind of a vague, evasive ansHer. I ''ant to ask the minister now if he can assure tne House that none of these people are indeed suffering because of lack of hospital facilities in this Province? And where are these people; Are they in St. Jvhn's or outside St. John's?

I would suspect, Sir, that ninety per cent of these people live in the rural areas, are living outside of St. John's. We want to get some more details on this matter, it is very urgent. And I want again, Sir, to , get back to the $3.00 per day ward rate that 1155

:·larch 23, 1978 rape ~-0. 415 :m- 1 l!R. -'lEARY: the government is going to take out of the hides of the poor people of this Province. Mr. Chairman, the other day I pointed out some exhorbitant salaries that are being lashed out by the administration in this Province, the main one being the $47,500 that is being paid to :1r. Bob Cole. That is only just one example, Sir. In the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs and in the Executive Council, the Premier's Office, forty-four or forty-five people are receiving upwards of $25,000 a year. the highest one being Hr.

Vic Young, 1•ho is the Secretary of ':reasury Board and the next one is the director of the action group, who makes $47,~00 a year. And these salaries are being lashed out at a time the government is asking the oeople to restrain thP.mselves, to hold back. It is a year of restraint, financial restriant. r!R. RIDEOUT: Socking it to the students. llR. NEARY: And so we heard this morning, from my colleagues, the member for St. John's West and the member for Port au Port, about how the univeristy is becoming an elitest university. HR. W.N. ROWE: That is right. HR. NEARY: Looking after the sons and dau11Jters of !1R.

W .N. ROWE: Rich St. John's men. ,J the rich. ~!R. NEARY: Rich St. John's men, and the St. John's cocktail set. And then we hear about the $2 dental service charge that the dentist out in Grand Falls is now lashing out about at the minister and tells the minister and his staff that the dental care of children is going to deteriorate, the quality is going to go down. But the worst of all, Sir, is that $3 charge on a hosoital bed, that is the worst of all, Sir. Well I suppose - yes, it is the worst. It is even worse than the one per cent sales tax.

Because here we are now headed down towards Easter, when people of this Province go in to buy their Easter eggs for their children they will pay eleven per cent 11.56

:rarc:n 23, 1978 Tape :.:a. 415 HR. NEARY: sales tax, to lash out these salaries we are talking about, the $47,500 for Mr. Bob Cole. HR. NOLAN: Plus expenses. MR. NEARY: Plus expenses. And all the travelling that is done by ministers. SOHE HON. r!BillERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: The Ilinister of Health should have resigned long ago for all his misdemeanors, as a member of the Cabinet. HR. W .N. RO\'ffi: He is talking about telephone bills, the foolish - 1·!R. ~mARY: Telephone bills? t!R. RIDEOUT: The minister's telephone bills? If he wants to get into telephone bills we can get into telephone bills . HR. H.N.

ROllE: He does not want us now to talk to constituents. t1R. NEARY: I1r. Chairman, the han. minister could not even tell us this morning, in answer to a question by my colleague, the member for St. George's, whether the $3 a day for fifteen days is going to be charged once, tt~ice, three times or as often as you are in and out of hospital. MR. lv.N. ROWE: Did not know. MR. NEARY: The han. gentleman does not know. The han. gentleman is just a big joke in the eyes of the medical people in this Province, a joke. It is a sick joke at that, The han. gentleman is a disaster and has a disastrous health • policy.

And the han. gentleman has made a faux pas of so many government departments. Look, Mr. Chairman, only one -all you have to do is make one goof in one department in any other part of the world and you are either flicked out or you resign. This minister brazens it out. And the Premier comes to his rescue by saying, "Oh, I am the head of this administration. I will take the blame for the minister. I will take it." Confession. Confession is no 11.57 ~- ,. , ! "-

!!arch 23, .L978 Tape ,·o. 415 ~ .. 11 - 3 ::rR. NEARY : excuse, Sir. The lllin.i stcr should resign. A.~ HON . ~!EMBER: It is good for the soul but that is it, that is the end of it. t!R. NEARY : And the "lilinister has n.o choice but to resign as a result of this $3 fee on beds tha t be is going to soc!: to the s~ck , Tak e it out of the hides of the sick peo ple in the Province . The minister should resign . And if the ministe r does not resi gn I am sure '.~hen his constituents get at him th e next time around be ~1ill get the royal order of the boot. . ~!lL H . ~ . ROWE: That is right .

There is· no thing surer than that . !·!R. NE..\RY: It is s canda.Lous, Sir . i11{. ~- COLLINS: The hon. member has been saying that for five elections. ~m . N~~Y: It is scandalous, Sir, it is scandalous, scanda~ous. !i!ten t~e ;;o through the lists of salaries, 'ohen we go through the salary list, Sir, and we see the salaries that are being lashed out - for mad£ jobs , for political appointments, tlad e jobs. Look if you went through t he estimates you could show the government t4here they could save at least '50 ,million I i 11.58

ilarch 23, 1978 Tape 416 Dl·! - MR. NEARY: in the economy measures. could take a pencil and go through the estimates and could show this government where they could save at least $50 million. ;'.tK. Ulllil: rou ccula sno~1 tuem how to save a lot of - MR. NEARY: l•lr. Speak~r. the hen. gentle- man should have stayed in the air force, I believe~where he was because the hen. gentleman is out of his depth now, Sir. r·1R. ~r. N. ROl-lE: ~lR. NE.I\.RY: That is for sure. 'The hen. gentleman is out of his depth and I would say that he is on t~e verge, Sir, of cracking up under the strain.

I believe the strain is -the job is too big for the hen. gentleman. AN HON. t1Er!BER: lie is going to get nif)ped. t~ R. NEMY: r ~~~ s t r a i n i s too b i g and the hen. gentleman seems to be going bonkers. MR. W.N. Rmo/E: wrapped. ~m. NEARY: He is going to be nipped and So, Mr: Speaker, I would like for the government to reconsider this matter of the two dollar service charge on ~the children's dental care program. And r would like to see the government reconsider this three dollars a day for fifteen days charged on beds on wards in all our hospitals. Mr.

Chairman, if the government' do not reconsider this I would say they ~ave no heart and no soul and I am surprised the han. minister of Industrial Development and the hon. member for Exploits would sit there and tolerate this. How can these two gentle­ men go back and face their sick constituents. r l>'IR. NULAii: Resiqn en masse. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the savings should have been made in the doctors office and not taken out of the hides of the people who are forced to go in hospital. 11.59

~iarch 23, 19 7 8 Tape 4lo DW - 2 !-JR. NURY: There could have been hundreds of thousands of dollars saved my han. friends know that right in the doctor's office,the misuse and tile abuse of the Nedicare Pro&ram. ~ut no~the minister takes a line of lease resistance, sock it to the sick people the people who nave ;o go in hos- pital. I would like for tx1e government to reconsider and I would like to hear wnat my non. friend the ;nember for Exploits, Whom I have such a great deal of respect for 7 I woulci like to know wil«t my hon. friend thinks of this three dollar charge.

Oh yes I know members can stand up and say three dollars is not v-.ry '!11UCb. ~4:> is not very much• It is not mucn for some hon. gentlemen who took this Jecision but it is a great big amount for the ordinary person t' f ti1is Province who is sick and wi10 is forced to go in hospital. HR. NOLAN: Shame~ HR. NMRY: Hr. Speaker, I think this govern- ment should nang its head in shame, my non. friend is right,if tney go through with this and if they do not reconsider and cancel it altogether,abolish it, cancel it, do not implement it. I guarantee you one thing, Hr.

Chairman, I will say this that : ;!.f we ever nave the opportunity on this side of the House to form a government, Sir - :m., tiOLAN: And we will. NR. NEARY: -if we ever have the opportunity- • 111!.. l'lULAJ.~: Shortly we will have it • HR. ,~J::ARY; - Goci willing we wight have the opportunity in the foreseeable future - Al' liON • l1EN.BER: (in audible) •'ill.

Nli.ARY : - and I guarantee hon. members of this House that if I Delonged to that administration and tney did not wipe out this three dollar charge and this two dollar service charge on the childrens dental care that I would resign from that administration, I would resign I would ~ave nothing to do with it. ·- 11.00 4.. . i I ( ..

Harc:ll Z3, 1978 Tape 4lb D\ol - 3 SOME liON • MEMllERS : l:!ear, Hear! And I would submit any hen. gentleman sitting on the opposite side of the House that has any backbone or any principle or any gumption about nim at all would resign before he would allow this to happen. 501:-JE HON • 1-.UWJ!ERS : Hear, Hear! HR. SPJ::AKER: i:lon. minister of Health. HR. il. COLLD~S: The hen. member who just sat down and all of the other han. members opposite are continually day after day hounding this government every minister for more free programs. SmiE HON • ~.r;N!lERS : Hear, Hear! 1:-lR. Li.

COLLINS: - for more social programs and before they sit down out of tne other corner of their mouths are accusing us of borrowing money and raising taxes. AN HO.~. }lE:t·'illER: Hear, Hear! MR. li. COLLINS: Hr. Chairman, how do you spend money if you do not have some money to spend? What I am trying to say is you cannot on the one hand criticize government for raising .I funds r MR. CALLAi~ : $3 billion in debt. :1-lR. ii. COLLINS : - and then on the other hand accuse them for not doing enough for the peovle- :r:-JR. RIDr.ou: : Set your priorities straight. NR. H. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, to deal with wr.at the hen. member just alluded to :ith .regard to health: Hear, Hear! hlR. l:i'. COLLINS: We considered for two years the impostion of a health premium in this Province. Hr. Chairman it might be worthy that all members take not.e of the fact that all of the so called richer provinces in Canada,,British Columbia, Manitoba, Alberta, Ontario and Quebec have health premiums in place. 11.61.

March 23, 1978 Tape 417 PK - 1 MR. H. COLLINS: Ontario this past year, Mr. Chairman, increased their health premium by 34 per cent for the simple reason that they had to find more monies to meet the health needs of the people. We came to the conclusion in Newfoundland to introduce a health premium at this time would be a very regressive tax, and one which the people in Newfoundland could not afford. On the other hand, Mr.

Chairman, we also looked at areas where we might be able to do some things which would try and bring about some sensibility, if you want_ that is not a good term but I will use it·~in the whole sphere of health care. One of the things which the Opposition are saying about the dental programme is completely false, Mr. Chairman. What they omit to say, and neither one of them will ever utter it, and that is our dental programme this year has been improved. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. H.

COLLINS: The dent a l programme in Newfoundland in the past provided free dental services to children up to age eleven, we have increased that to ag~ thirteen. opposite who has mentioned that. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! There is not an bon. member MR. H. COLLINS: Not one over there has mentioned that, and they are not going to mention it. And we also propose, Mr.

Chairman, in fact we had proposed to increase the age to fifteen, but after consultation with the Dental Association over Sunday and Monday of last week we were convinced by them that to increase the age to fifteen this year would not really be beneficial to anyone because the dentists were not in a position to be able to take care of the additional work load which would result from it.

And we agreed mutually, our own department and the Dental Association. that as far as we should go this year would be to age thirteen, and next year we propose to go to age fourteen, and the next year to age fifteen, a free dental programme. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 1162

March 23, 1978 Tape 417 PK- 2 MR. H. COLLINS: And, Mr. Chairman, the reason for that is over the years the free dental programme in Newfoundland has worked fairly well, we have managed to get a number of dentists. This past two years we have been more than fortunate~ ?ut, Mr. Chairman, the result has been that after the free period is over, when age eleven is reached much of the work which has been done by the dentists all those years is lost because mothers for some reason have not been taking their children on to the dentist after age eleven, I suppose because of the cost involved.

So all of the preventive work which was done up to age eleven is lost, throwa out, washed down the sink. By increasing the age to thirteen we hope to be able to preserve that, and by going to fourteen next year, and fifteen the next year we will improve the dental programme to the extent that we will have the best dental programme of any province in Canada or any country in this world.make no doubt about it. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. H. COLLINS: The charge, Mr.

Chairman, of $2 per service amounts to this;examinations will still be free, x-rays will still be free, in-hospital services will still be free, and out-patients services will still be free if the dental health of the kid is involved. So, Mr. Chairman, you know let the Opposition w en they go on the press or when they talk with their constituents tell them the truth. Do not say this nasty Conservative Government / has introduced a $2 fee you cannot get your kid to see a dentist anymore. The kids can still go to the dentist.

The school programmes will still be in place, all examinations free, a~I ' x-rays free - SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! . t MR. H. COLLINS: - all in-patients services free, and all out- ! patients services free where,from a medical point of view, the t. service is needed. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 1.1.63

March 23, 1978 Tape 4.17 PK- 3 MR. H. COLLINS: And the $2 charge, Mr. Chairman, will be an incentive t .o p .arents to make sure that their children go to the dentist for the preventive services knowing full well that if they do not they are going to require more fillings. And the $2 will only apply on the fillings, so there is an incentive for parents to keep their children going to the d.entist more often up to age thirteen and hopefully they will never have to pay the $2 fee for services. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG) : Shall the resolution carry? The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I see no point in carrying on anY ],onger, Sir, with the interim supply because the government are not going to alter their programmes or their policies, they are going to brazen it out, so we will just have to let the electorate decide, Sir, whether they are on the right track, whether they have good policies, ~ether our policies are better. So I guess there is not much we can do about it except let it go through because the salaries have to be paid. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Call an election. MR.

NEARY: But I would suggest, the best way to settle this is to call an election right away, to settle it at the polls. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Re.ar, .hear! 11.64

Harch 23, 1978 Tape 418 EC - 1 HR. CHAIRlWl: Order, please! Hotion, that the Committee report having passed the resolution and a bill consequent thereto, carried. On motion that the Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, ~r. Speaker returned to the Chair. The Committee of Supply report having considered the matters to them referred and report having passed a certain resolution and a bill consequent thereto and ask leave to sit again. On motion report received and adopted. On motion resolution read a first and second time.

On motion a bill, "An Act For Granting To Her "'ajesty Certain Sums Of ~foney For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thirty-First Day Of }!arch One Thousand Nine Hundred And Seventy-Nine And For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service," read a first time, by leave. HR. H. :-<. ROWE: ?1r. Speaker, before you go on, to preserve the rights and dignities and privileges of the House of Assembly, let us make sure we know what we are doinp. here. He, the Opposition, are accommodating the government to get the Interim Supply Bill throug~ the Eouse.

We have agreed that ~~e woulrl do t~at and restrain and keep our debate until the main estimates come through and we have agreed to stop the debate at quarter to twelve. But I would like to preserve the rights of the members of the House for any future occasion and make sure that no precedents are being set here for any future occasion in case it is desire~ by members to debate the money bill in the House on second reading and to indicate to the House that we are,in fact,giving leave as members of the House to allmv these various money resolutions and bills go through the House fort~~vith at this time.

Sm•E EO)[. :!D~ERS: Hear, hear! 11.65 I ' .l t ..

:larch 23, 1978 Tape No. 419 m1 - 1 ~!R. SPEAKER: Ron. members will remember that the preceder-t of the !louse is that in Interim Supply the debate does take place at Committee stag_!! and that ~he bill does go through first, second and third reading after the resolution has been passed.

On motion, a bill, "An Act For Granting To Iler ~!ajesty Certain Sums Of :!oney For Defraying Certain E~;:penses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thirty-First Day Of :larch One Thousand Nine ifundred And Seventy-Nine And For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service,'' (}lo. 15), read a second and third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. MR. SPEAK,ER_;.. Today being Thursday, I have to inform the House of the subjects that will be debated for the adjournment. There are three subjects and they will be presented in the order given.

The first by the hon. member for Bellevue (:lr. Callan) who will debate hunters safety or capability. The se~ond, the hon. the member for Terra Nova (l1r. Lush) who will debate Crown Lands, the answer from the ~linister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. RIDEOUT: A point of order, }~.; Speaker, I believe that should be the member for Baie Verte - l~hite Bay, if the Speaker would check. MR. SPEAKER: My error, Baie Verte- White (Mr. Rideout), I make that correction. And the third matter will be debated by the hon. member for LaPoile (~~.

Neary) with the }linister of Health, in_regard to the answers given on various health matters in the oral question period of today. ~JR. HICKHAN: Order 4. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The l-lortgage Brokers Act," (No.1). MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. :1R. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the explanatory note sets forth the purpose of this bill. The MOrtgage Brokers Act, which is designed to protect the consumers of the Province who enter into mortgage transactions; it was discovered that at least one lawyer 11.66 .I

}larch 23, 1978 Tape ~o. 419 HM- 2 HR. HI Cl<MAJ.~ : placed an

interpretation on it saying that it was also applicable to companies making large investments in the -no the bonding houses. And they are covered by the security legislation, not the MOrtgage Brokers Act and this simply exempts any loan over $500,000 from the provisions of the l!ortgage Brokers Act. I move second reading. llR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. l!R. W.N. ROWE: Very briefly, Sir, this is one of the bills which we agreed in the Opposition to put through fairly quickly before the House closed today. I just wart to make sure that we understand fully what we are doing in this particular bill.

The understanding of most of the legal profession,! believe,was that what we are now trying to do was in fact the case in any event. Is that correct1 This is purely for clarification purposes and to make certain what was,perhaps, a little uncertain before. MR. NOLAN: I would like to ask a question if I may, Mr. SJ1eaker. NR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Conception Bay South. !1R. NOLAN: What is it going to do to help the consumer? The minister said,! believe, or implied, that it is going to help the consumer, to protect the consumer. In what way? W11at is it going to do exactly? l1R.. HICKHAN: Mr.

Speaker, what I said was that the Hortgage Brokers Act is legislation designed to protect the consumers of the Provincer

whereas this bill - llR. .lOLAN: God knows they need protection. MR.. HICK!· !A:~: this bill simply is to clarify an

interpretation of the

section to make sure that it does not apply to bonding houses, making loans over $500,000 in the Province because they are governed by the securities legislation. 11.67 i I ! _I;

:·larch 2.3,1978 Tape No. 420 AH-1 On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend the Hortgage Brokers Act, " read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole Rouse presently, by leave. (Bill No. 1). MR. HICKMAN: Order 5. l1otion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting TI•e Execution Of Releases Of ~brtgage By Persons ~~ Are Not Resident In The Province." (Bill No. 2). }!R. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Finance. HR. HI CIG1AN: Hr.

Speaker, a problem has arisen with respect to obtaining releases of mortgage from financial institutions whose head offices are located outside ti1e Province and it has caused a great deal of hardship to people who have paid off their mortgage ar want to sell their homes .The mortgage company will not execute a release of mortgage until they have the money in their hands, their head offices are mostly in Toronto and sometimes I am told they have lost up to two months in waiting to conclude a transaction.

And that simply provides that they must either appoint an attorney or have their duplicate seal in the Province so that it can be executed forthwith. MR.W.ROWE: A word very briefly on this, Sir. This is a reform in the law which should have been brought in twenty years ago and has been delayed until now being brought in but I commend the minister for finally bringing this in. Thi~ will make it much easier on people who want their mortgages r .leased.

They will not have to wait for anywhere up to a couple of mouths as the minister said in order to have some person up in Mont!real or Toronto or Halifax finally deign to apply the seal to the release of mortgage. It shall now be done in the Province failing which the Registrar at the Supreme Court, as I understand it,has • · he right, the power to execute the release of mortgage himself on proper cause being shown. I support this bill, Hr. Speaker. 11.68 I I '·

March 23,1973 Tape No, 420 AH-2 MR. SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House that the said bill be now read a second time? Those in favour "Aye",Contrary "Nay", Carried, On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Execution of Releases Of Mortgage By Persons Who Are Not Resident In The Province," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House, presently by leave. (Bill No, 2), HR. HIClC·.IA}i: Order 6, :·lotion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting The Holding Of Property In Tbe Province By The Newfoundland And Labrador Command And Branches Of The Royal Canadian Legion." (No.3) NR.

SPEAKER: The han, i•rinister of Finance. HR. HICl<HAi'l": Hr. Speaker, the recital in this bill speaks for itself. It now provides that properties of the Canadian Legion wi1ich l1aJ heretofore been vested in Dominion Command will vest either in the ?rovincial l:lommand or in the branches. This was requested by the Newfoundlc.nd and Labrador Command of the Royal Canadian Legion. I move second reading. MR. SPEAKER: Han. member for Conception Bay South. }!R. NOLAN: Just a matter of information, I am going by tne explanatory note, Hr.

Speaker, as outlined by the }ri.nister of Justice. rne Dominion Command - does that mean that ownership was vested in the legion nationally rather than either the Provincial Cor.amand or the particular branch? No one surely can argue against this, what we are saying is that the branch,fQr example,in Kelligrews will now own their premises. The interesting thing is how come,again as the hon. leader indicatea in an earlier bill, how come this has not come up before? Were there former requests by the legion for this or is it just coming to our attention now?

It is very practical and very sensible, we are certainly not opposed to it in any way. MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. minister speaks now he closes the debate. !1R. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, this request as I understand went 1169 . ' j .f: I I ~ : i

Narcil 23 ,197 tl Tape l~o. 420 AH- 3 io!R. IU CK:li.Al'l : in ,;imultaneously to all ten provincial governments at the same cime.witnin the past few months . And what it is designed to do is to give local autonomy co the branches with some respon .sibility to report to the Provincial Commarui.And the other problem that it takes care of, and it is a very well done bill, is when , say,a branch disolves, title then vests in the Provincial Command rather: than have it hiatus or in the 09minion Command. ~tit . NOLAN: I see . 11"10 t ~ t

March 23, 1978 Tape 421 PK- 1 On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Holding Of Property In The Province By The Newfoundland And Labrador Command And Branches Of The Royal Canadian Legion", Bill No. (3), read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House presently, by leave. Motion, second reading, a b~ll, "An Act To Amend The Provincial Court Act To Make Use Of The Services Of Retired Magistrates", Bill No. (6). MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, when we passed the Provincial Court Act a couple of years ago there was omitted a provision that is contained in all Provincial Court Acts,I understand 1 in the Province and in our Judicature Act and in our District Court Act, for the appointment of what is,in effect . supernumerary magistrates, so that if a magistrate is in good health etc., if his services are needed, that he can be called back by the chief magistrate and put to work without effect upon his pension, followin~ retirement age. ~1R. DOODY: On a part-time basis. MR. HICKMAN: On a part-time basis, yes. MR. SPEAKER (DR.

COLLINS): The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: This Act, Sir, will allow the government, the minister to use the services of retired magistrates. And the minister indicated it was an omission from the Act when it was put through, the original Act. Sir, what I would like to ask the minister now - MR. NOLAN: You are .lookinq to the future 'Alex'. MR. NEARY: Well I suppose we could use the hon. gentleman's services although he has no experience on the Bench. t1B. t:lQL8tl; Who does not? MR. NEARY: Not even as a magistrate, the hon.- , I i MR NOI AN: He reads a lot. MR. NEARY: He reads well, that may be it.

It would not appear to the House that the hon. gentleman reads very much law. MR. HICKMAN: Order! 1171.

March 23, 1978 Tape 4 21 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, is there a shortage of magistrates now? You know, does the minister think that any of the magistrates, for instance, Magistrate O'Neill who retired recently, if any of these magistrates will have to be recalled? How many are in retirement now? And how serious is this matter or is it just a formality the minister is going through or does the minister have it in his mind to get some of these magistrates back on the Bench again because of their experience or for some other reason? MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, - MR. SPEAKER (DR.

COLLINS): If the minister now speaks he closes the debate. MR. HICKMAN: - right now I believe we have thirty-one magistrates throughout the Province, that is an increase in four years I think from nineteen or twenty. MR. NOLAN: Do you have any in law school now? MR. RICKMAN: We have magistrates at law school. We have three magistrates who are retired right now, and as far as I know are healthy, former Chief Magistrate Hugh O'Neill, Magistrate George Walsh, and Magistrate w. E. Mercer. Magistrate Mercer must be well into his eighties, and so probably he would not be available.

I envisage that there will be on occasion a time when the chief magistrate say he has got a long enquiry coming up, and sometimes these fire enquiries and that type of thing back up horrendously because the other trials have to be given precedence - where he would call them back, say, Chief Magistrate O'Neill who is very alert and ask him to take certain cases. And I think it is in the interest of the Administration of Justice that it pass. I move second reading.

On motion, a bill, "An To Amend The Provincial Court Act To Make Use Of The Services Of Retired Magistrates", read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of The Whole House now, by leave. MR. HICKMAN: Order 11. 11.72 ,, t

March 23, 1978 Tape 421 PK - 3 ~lotion, second reading, a bill, "An Act to Amend The Commissioners For Oa