Manitoba Hansard — 18 May 2004 (Sitting 40, 38th Legislature, 2nd Session)

38-2-40

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LV No. 40 - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 18, 2004

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn Minto N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P.

SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

2335 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 18, 2004 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS MATTER OF PRIVILEGE Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I stand on a matter of privilege, if I may. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Inkster, on a matter of privilege. Mr. Lamoureux: The Standing Committee on Social and Economic Development met this morning, and my matter of privilege is based on the answers to questions that I asked to the Minister of Immigration (Ms. Allan) on Bill 9, The Manitoba Immigration Council Act. I would like to quote directly from the act, Mr. Speaker.

In the explanatory notes it states that this bill "establishes the Manitoba Immigration Council to provide information and advice to the government about immigration to the province." There are two opposing arguments on how this council and membership to this council should be filled. The government says, in essence, they want to make the appointment themselves, a political appointment.

We, on the other hand, believe that at least a minimum number should be appointed from organi- zations like the Manitoba Federation of Labour, the Manitoba Business Council, the Manitoba Law Society and other community-based groups. We believe that immigration is so vitally important to our province that it is incredibly important that this council be truly independent as much as possible. This morning the minister gave very clear indication that she already has the names for this council, Mr. Speaker, very clear indication.

Whether I had amendments or if 500 Manitobans had shown up this morning, nothing would have changed because, even though the minister did not have the bill passed, she had already decided on who it is she wants to be on the Immigration Council. I question to what degree the minister is infringing on our rights when she makes decisions like this before the act itself has even gone through committee stage following second reading. I would look to the Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh).

He quotes Beauchesne's on occasion, in dealing with matters of privilege, and the Government House Leader states right from Beauchesne's 27, privileges are about rights of members in Parliaments that are absolutely necessary for due execution of powers of this place and individual members. I would argue that Manitobans and individual members do have and should have the opportunity through our process which has public hearings at the committee stage to have real input.

After having the questions and answers this morning, it has become abundantly clear that any amendments I might have would not be welcome because she already knows who she wants, Mr. Speaker, that if Manitobans had an interest, if they wanted to express an interest, that it did not matter because she already has her appointments. Mr. Speaker, there are more Manitobans than she thinks that would like to see this council not only put into being, into law, but put into law in a proper fashion so that it would be independent, it would not be a political appointment from a governing political party.

So, this minister, I truly believe, has infringed on all of our rights inside this Chamber by going as far as she has even before it has become law, Mr. Speaker. To that degree, I would move, seconded by the Member for River Heig hts (Mr. Gerrard), the leader of the Manitoba Liberal Party, that this issue be addressed by the Standing Committee on the Rules of the House. * (13:35) Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same privilege. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I am not going to take long, Mr. Speaker. I do not think I have ever heard a matter raised in this

2336 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 2004 House that is so far from a matter of privilege as what we have just heard. This is a political debate, Mr. Speaker. This is properly a matter for discussion at third reading and, indeed, in committee where it was discussed. I also understand that, under the proposed legislation, there is a provision in there for the appointment of members of the council by the Lieutenant-Governor- in-Council.

Until that happens, there are no members, but the minister I think is entirely within her rights, if not as a matter of good planning, already considering who may be the kind of representatives on that council. That is entirely within the right of a minister to make plans and to think ahead. Mr. Speaker, there is no matter of privilege. There are no rights being taken away. I know the member is opposed to this legislation. I suggest that he put his opposition on the record by way of debate and vote and not by using, unfortunately, a matter of privilege to take the time in this House. Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on the same privilege. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Official Opposition House Leader): Yes, Mr. Speaker, on the same matter. Although this is a rare occasion where a matter of privilege is raised of this fashion, when one considers the impact that a decision of a minister has before a piece of legislation is passed, where you are already moving ahead with activating the intended legislation, then I think there is a matter of privilege here. Mr. Speaker, the Member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) quite rightly puts it to this Legislature that we cannot presume that a piece of legislation is going to pass, then start the action or start the implementation of the legislation before it has Royal Assent and before the proclamation is done in this House and by this Province. Otherwise, this would be simply an Order-in- Council type of regulation that could be passed by a government without having the due process of the Legislature that is afforded to all legislation and where the opportunities are afforded to all legislators. Mr.

Speaker, this is an issue because it presumes that, because we have the numbers in the House, we can drive this legislation through so we might as well go ahead and start implementing it because it is going to be implemented anyway. That is very presumptuous, Mr. Speaker, but it is also very cavalier. It displays an attitude of unsurpassed arrogance because you cannot presume anything until this House has resolved the matter of that nature. The significance of that is not just for this bill, but the significance is to all legislation that comes before this Chamber and is passed in this province.

If we digress from those rules that have been laid down through generations for good reason, Mr. Speaker, then chaos is go ing to prevail in this province. I do not think we want to go down that road. Mr. Speaker: Order. Before I hear any other arguments, it is normally the member that raises the matter of privilege and House leaders and if a member is directly involved in the privilege. That is normally who we hear because privileges are not to be turned into debates. Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr.

Speaker, I just want to indicate that I was at the committee this morning, and just for clarification, the minister did state that basically she had decided who was going to be on that committee, who was going to be appointed to that committee. She identified that to the committee. Later she tried to backtrack and suggest maybe that other organizations were going to appoint people, but her statements were very inconsistent. She definitely, I think, has stepped over the line. I will leave it up to you to rule on this matter of privilege, but those facts as presented were what took place at committee. * (13:40) Mr.

Speaker: A matter of privilege is a serious concern. I am going to take this matter under advisement to consult the authorities and I will return to the House with a ruling.

May 18, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2337 ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Minimum Sitting Days for Legislative Assembly Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The Manitoba Legislature sat for only 37 days in 2003. Manitobans expect their government to be accountable, and the number of sitting days has a direct impact on the issue of public accountability. Manitobans expect their elected officials to be provided the opportunity to be able to hold the government accountable.

The Legislative Assembly provides the best forum for all MLAs to debate and ask questions of the government, and it is critical that all MLAs be provided the time needed in order for them to cover constituent and party duties. Establishing a minimum number of sitting days could prevent the government of the day from limiting the rights of opposition members from being able to ask questions. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba to consider recognizing the need to sit for a minimum of 80 days in any given calendar year.

Signed by Jay Ramanand, Anthony Batson and Viola Batson. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Alzheimer's Disease Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: Alzheimer's is a debilitating disease. Cholinesterase inhibitors are known to slow or even prevent the progression of Alzheimer's.

The provincial government asked for the development of an Alzheimer's strategy in 2000 and was presented with nine recommendations in 2002, none of which has yet been implemented. In the absence of a provincial Alzheimer's strategy, the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority put in place a policy in November 2003 whereby Alzheimer's patients entering personal care homes are being weaned from certain Alzheimer medi- cations in a move that the WRHA's vice-president of long-term care has refe rred to as a financial necessity.

The administrative costs of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority have more than tripled since 1999, to a total of more than $16 million a year. In a move that amounts to two-tier medicine, the families of Alzheimer's sufferers in personal care homes may request that the drugs continue to be delivered at the family's expense. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Health (Mr.

Chomiak) to ensure that his attempts to balance his depart- ment's finances are not at the expense of the health and well-being of seniors and other vulnerable Manitobans suffering from this debilitating disease. To urge the Minister of Health to consider reversing his decision to deny Alzheimer's patients in personal care homes access to certain medications. To request the Minister of Health to consider implementing a provincial Alzheimer's strategy. Signed by K. Manoyan, D. Graham, A. Adnum and others. Proposed PLA–Floodway Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the

2338 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 2004 following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The Province of Manitoba has tabled legislation in the Legislature that may result in the $660-million expansion of the Red River Floodway by the summer of 2005. The Premier of Manitoba plans to subject all work related to the project to a Project Labour Agreement (PLA). The proposed PLA would force all employees on the project to belong to a union. Approximately 95 percent of heavy construction companies in Manitoba are currently non-unionized.

The Manitoba Heavy Co nstruction Association has indicated that the forced unionization of all employees may increase the costs of the project by $65 million.

The chair of B.C.'s 2010 Construction Leaders Taskforce has stated, "Major industrial projects built under project labour agreements from the energy sector in Alberta to o ff-shore development on the East Coast have repeatedly incurred cost overruns, labour disruptions and delays." Organizations including the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Merit Contractors Association of Manitoba, the Winnipeg Construction Association, the Construc- tion Association of Rural Manitoba and the Canadian Construction Association have publicly opposed the Premier's plan to turn the floodway expansion project into a union-only worksite. * (13:45) Manitobans deserve an open and fair compe- tition that protects taxpayers from unnecessary costs and respects workers' democratic choice.

Manitobans support the right of any company, both union and non-union, to participate in the expansion of the Red River Floodway. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider ending his government's forced unionization plan of companies involved with the Red River Floodway expansion.

To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider entering into discussions with business, construction and labour groups to ensure any qualified company and worker, regardless of their union status, is afforded the opportunity to bid and work on the floodway expansion project. Signed Pat Jamieson, Michael Jamieson, Scott Jamieson and others. Highway 227 Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition.

It is unacceptable for the residents of Manitoba to travel the unsafe gravel roads of Highway 227 in the constituencies of Lakeside and Portage la Prairie. Inclement weather can make Highway 227 treacherous to all drivers. Allowing better access to Highway 227 would ease the flow of traffic on the Trans-Canada Highway. Residences along Highway 227 are not as accessible to emergency services due to the nature of the current condition of the roadway. The condition of these gravel roads can cause serious damage to all vehicles, which is unacceptable.

Residents of Manitoba deserve a better rural highway infrastructure. We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To request that the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to consider having

May 18, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2339 Highway 227 paved from the junction of highways 248 and 227 all the way to Highway 16, the Yellow- head route. To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider supporting said initiatives to ensure the safety of all Manitobans and all Canadians who travel along Manitoba highways. Signed by L. Lee, Marty Lee, Ed Campbell and others. Proposed PLA–Floodway Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

These are the reasons for this petition: The Province of Manitoba has tabled legislation in the Legislature that may result in the $660-million expansion of the Red River Floodway by the summer of 2005. The Premier of Manitoba plans to subject all work related to the project to a Project Labour Agreement (PLA). The proposed PLA would force all employees on the project to belong to a union. Approximately 95 percent of heavy construction companies in Manitoba are currently non-unionized.

The Manitoba Heavy Co nstruction Association has indicated that the forced unionization of all employees may increase the costs of the project by $65 million. The chair of B.C.'s 2010 Construction Leaders Taskforce has stated that major industrial projects built under project labour agreements from the energy sector in Alberta to off-shore development on the East Coast have repeatedly incurred cost overruns, labour disruptions and delays.

Organizations including the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, the Manitoba Heavy Construction Association, the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Merit Contractors Association of Manitoba, the Winnipeg Construction Association, the Construc- tion Association of Rural Manitoba and the Canadian Construction Association have publicly opposed the Premier's plan to turn the floodway expansion project into a union-only worksite. Manitobans deserve an open and fair compe- tition that protects taxpayers from unnecessary costs and respects workers' democratic choice.

Manitobans support the right of any company, both union and non-union, to participate in the expansion of the Red River Floodway project. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider ending his government's forced unionization plan of companies involved with the Red River Floodway expansion project. To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider ending his government's forced unionization plan of companies involved with the Red River Floodway expansion project.

To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider entering into discussions with business, construction and labour groups to ensure that any qualified company and worker, rega rdless of their union status, is afforded the opportunity to bid and work on the floodway expansion project. Signed by Irene Friesen, Erika Krahn, Trudy Turner and others. Highway 32 Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr . Speaker, I wish to present the following petiti on.

These are the reasons for the petition: Rural highways are part of the mandate of the Province of Manitoba. * (13:50) Under a previous commi tment, the Province of Manitoba would be covering the costs of four-laning that portion of Highway 32 that runs through Winkler, Manitoba. The Department of Transportation and Govern- ment Services has altered its position and will now

2340 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 2004 undertake the project only if the City of Winkler will pay half of the total cost of construction. The provincial government's offloading of its previous commitment will cost the City of Winkler several million dollars. The City of Winkler has now been informed that it will have to wait severa l years before the project could be undertaken.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to consider honouring the previous commitment and complete the four-laning of Highway 32 through the city of Winkler, absorbing all costs related to the construction as previously agreed. To request the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to consider the responsibility of the Department of Transportation and Govern- ment Services for the construction of rural highways.

To request the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to consider the significant and strategic importance of the completion of four-laning Highway 32 through the city of Winkler, especially as it relates to the economic growth and the development of the city of Winkler and its trading area. To request the Minister of Transportation and Government Services to consider the valuable contribution of the city of Winkler and its trading area to the provincial economy and to reprioritize the four-laning of Highway 32 for the 2004 construction season.

Submitted by John Giesbrecht, Arlen Hildebrand, Cecil Freund, Gordon Suderman and others. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery. We have Cheryl and Terilyn Lavallee and also Del Schade, Florence Shirtliff and Anita Wold. They are all from Morris and they are the family members of our page, Ashley Lavallee. Also in the public gallery we have 45 students from Crystal City Early Years School under the direction of Mr. Larry Hamilton and Katie Harms.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed). Also I would like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today 29 participants in the Katimavik Program. These visitors are guests of the honourable Member for Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoff). Also in the public gallery we have from Concordia Hospital, the Auxiliary. These visitors are guests of the honourable First Minister (Mr. Doer) and the honourable Memb er for Rossmere (Mr. Schellenberg). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today.

ORAL QUESTIONS Elections Finances Amendment Act Proclamation Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, this Premier's third-party gag law was introduced and passed but never proclaimed, as he was waiting the Supreme Court's decision on advertising limits during federal election campaigns. That decision came down today and, unfortunately, the Supreme Court ruled six to three to uphold these spending limits. Mr. Speaker, can the Premier advise this House if he is now going to have his third-party gag law proclaimed? Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): I recall the speeches from members opposite at the time we were dealing with the long-outstanding recommendation from the Chief Electoral Officer to bring in disclosure and limitations on third-party participation in the electoral process. Members opposite, to a person, stated that third-party limitations would be thrown out by the Supreme Court of Canada, flowing from the Alberta decision.

May 18, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2341 Obviously, we will look at the specific court decision in its entirety, but the principle of allowing for reasonable limits of third parties in a democracy is the principle the Supreme Court of Canada underlined with the decision today. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, please make no mistake that Bill 4 that was introduced by this Premier will be repealed when we are in government. That is a fact. I would just simply like to ask this Premier.

He brought in under his watch the fact that, limit the availability of individuals that had to be from Manitoba, put a gag law on how much they could spend. He put a gag law on disallowing corporations to donate to political parties in Manitoba. Now I would just ask him very clearly: His law that was passed, not proclaimed, I am asking him very simply now, in light of the Supreme Court ruling that has come into Manitoba, will he advise the House that he is going to have his third-party gag law proclaimed. It is a yes or no, Mr. Speaker. * (13:55) Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Member for River East (Mrs.

Mitchelson) said, and I quote, "Quite frankly, we believe that this Premier and his government will be very embarrassed when this law is challenged, which it will be, and they find it is unconstitutional and it is tossed out by the courts. It will again prove that this government has not managed the legislative process in the first session of the Legislature well." The only people that should be embarrassed are members opposite to a person, to a person said that our law and the limitations on third parties would not stand the test of time.

The Chief Electoral Officer of Manitoba recommended year after year that third- party rules be established. I recall that the then-leader of the national– Some Honourable Members: Oh, Oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: I remember the then-national leader of the National Citizens Coalition was going to appear before our legislative committee. I wanted to ask the former national leader of the National Citizens Coalition, "Who funds you?" Regrettably, he did not appear before the committee. He had a press conference at the bottom of the steps, and we could not ask those questions. Members opposite were wrong in 2000.

They should be embarrassed and they should apologize. Mr. Murray: Mr. Speaker, the only person that has to be embarrassed in this House is the Premier. It was his idea to bring in a law to gag citizens on how much money they could donate to political parties. It was this Premier's idea that was passed in this Legislature to bring in a gag law disallowing corporations to support political parties, and it was this Premier that brought in a gag law against third parties during an election campaign. The Premier does not have to rant and rave and talk about anybody being embarrassed. It was his bill.

It was brought into this Legislature under his leadership. It was not proclaimed. I simply ask him today: Is he going to proclaim the third-party gag law as was recommended by the Supreme Court? Yes or no. Mr. Doer: Members opposite, when they had an opportunity being government, had no rules of disclosure. They had no rules of participation. They had no rules dealing with the implementation of the Chief Electoral Officer's re port. The Chief Electoral Officer of Manitoba made recommendations year after year on third parties, and members opposite did not implement it when they had a chance in government.

The Supreme Court has ruled: "In promoting the equal dissemination of points of view by limiting the election advertising of third parties who are influential participants in the electoral process, the overarching objective of spending limits is electoral fairness." I know members opposite do not believe in electoral fairness. We do on this side. Members opposite have proven their electoral fairness in the past. We all remember the Monnin inquiry. [interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order.

I would remind all honourable members when the Speaker is standing all members should be seated and the Sp eaker should be heard in silence. Mr. Doer: If members opposite want to campaign in the next election against the Supreme Court decision, if they want to reinstate corporate and union

2342 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 2004 donations in Manitoba, we welcome that democratic fight. Winnipeg Regional Health Authority Surgery Program Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): A WRHA source has indicated that the surgery program ran a deficit last year and will also be in deficit again this year unless changes are made. In order to avoid these deficits, two options were presented. One was to cut 100 beds and the other was to significantly cut the number of surgeries done. I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he has accepted any of these options. * (14:00) Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): As I understand it, there is an ongoing planning process that is going on at the WRHA in draft form with respect to ongoing reconfigurations of surgery. I do not know if the member a ppreciates it, but when you take a significant program like cardiac surgery and consolidate it at one of the two tertiary care sites in Winnipeg, that has ramifications across the entire system. In addition, when you have the added capacity of a Pan Am Clinic and you move orthopedics outside of St. Boniface Hospital, th ere are reconfigurations around the city.

In addition, we are also bringing in minimally invasive surgery. We hope to be one of the pre-eminent sites in the entire country, perhaps in North America with regard to minimally invasive, which will necessitate a movement right around the entire system. That is being looked at now. Mrs. Driedger: The minister did not answer the question at all. A WRHA source has indicated that the surgery program deficits cannot be eliminated without bed reductions or significant surgical volume cuts. Can the Minister of Health tell us what the WRHA is doing? Are they cutting beds?

Are they cutting the number of surg eries done, or are they running a deficit? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the WRHA is presently looking at a configuration all around the city of Winnipeg with respect to surgical programs and all of the surgeries, which is what we would expect them to do. We would expect them to look at how we can best configure all of our resources. The only thing I can tell the member is that since we, for example, consolidated cardiac surgery and started it at St. Boniface Hospital, our elective cardiac surgery waiting list is down 72 percent.

We intend to enhance and improve that as we move around the system. I want to remind members that the system will change, but we intend to do more right across the entire system in order to meet the needs of a demographic and a growing population that requires those needs. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, the WRHA is looking at cutting 100 beds, or if they cannot do that, they are looking at significant cuts to the number of surgeries done every year. This minister has been in charge for five years. The WRHA is under his watch. He is accountable, and what did he approve?

Did he approve the WRHA running a deficit, closing 100 beds in the city or cuttin g the number of surgeries done? What has he approved? Mr. Chomiak: First off, Mr. Speaker, I have not approved that. The member asked me to get with the nineties and to get with the thousands and to close beds during the Estimates process. The member asked me to do that, and I said we were going to reconfigure beds. That is our position. In addition, Mr.

Speaker, members opposite about two weeks ago, six or seven questions: "You are closing obstetrics at Victoria, you are closing obstetrics at Victoria." Well, the last time I looked, obstetrics is still going on at Victoria and will continue. They continue to fearmonger. Drinking Water Safety Act Regulations Mr. David Faurschou (P ortage la Prairie): It has almost been two years since this government passed The Drinking Water Safety Act, yet we have not seen any of the regulations which the drinking water inspectors are to enforce here in Manitoba.

Over 35 communities in this province are facing boiled water advisory or boiled water orders. Thousands of Manitobans are having to boil their water each and every day. How is this government to be trusted when they cut over half a million dollars out of the water budget

May 18, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2343 which is to monitor and maintain water quality here in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Water Steward- ship): Well, Mr. Speaker, I am very surprised at the question because if the member checks the budget he will see in terms of our initiatives, in terms of drinking water, that we have $1.6 million in the budget, that we have 12 drinking water officers, none of whom were in place when members opposite were in government. They are enforcing existing public health regulations.

In terms of boil water orders, and this issue was raised in Estimates, what the member also fails to point to is that a number of communities he keeps referring to in terms of boil water orders have now got a central municipal water system. That order remains in place for those who are not hooked up. So we are not only dealing with the issue of drinking water from the inspection side, we are dealing with the infrastructure side, indeed, some- thing again the members opposite did not do when they were in government. Mr. Faurschou: Mr.

Speaker, the minister states that he has hired 12 additional water inspectors, yet they do not have the regulations of the new Water Safety Act to enforce. He also mentions that these communities are receiving additional suppor t because they are being monitored. That budget has been clearly cut. In addition to that, the budget of the Water Services Board was additionally cut this year. How is this minister to be trusted to improve the domestic water services in our Manitoba communities? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, the bottom line here is that we have added 12 new drinking water officers.

We have $1.6 million in the budget that did not exist under the Tories. These same Tories who, one moment in Question Period try to suggest there is a spending problem, and now express concerns about the budget, may want to consider we have also added 16 inspectors in terms of intensive livestock. We have put in place $50 million in terms of improved infrastructure and we are investing in our water system, something that the members opposite had 11 years to do and did not do in government. Mr. Faurschou: Clearly, Manitobans do not trust this minister.

In regard to a recent poll that was announced, almost 70 percent of Manitobans feel this government does not care about managing the natural resources. So no regulations for our drinking water inspectors to enforce and cuts to the resources for improved drinking water here in the province of Manitoba. I would like to ask this Minister of Water Stewardship what he wants to say to Manitobans, and thousands of Manitobans at that, who have to boil their drinking water each and every day. Mr. Ashton: Mr.

Speaker, once again the member opposite put out a press release that listed communities that now have municipal water treat- ment systems that remain in terms of the boil water advisory in case there are individuals who are not part of that system. What I say to Manitobans is, unlike the 11 years in which the members opposite were in office, we have put $50 million in terms of improved stored water in this province, we have new licensing standards in place in terms of waste water, we have 12 new drinking water officers and a $1.6 million budget.

We have a record we are proud of, some- thing that members opposite ignored for 11 years, safe drinking water in this province. Environment Officers Hiring Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): This minister may be proud of his record, but Manitobans are not very proud of his accomplishments. We have a safe drinking water act that has no regulations and it was proclaimed 18 months ago. The same problem persists in the Department of Conservation. The Department of Conservation is currently short 16 environment officers is my under- standing.

I wonder if the Minister of Conservation would tell us when he intends to fill those positions. Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, we have been working very hard along with the Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr. Ashton) to make sure that certain standards are there and available for Manitobans when it comes to drinking water. Also, I want to make sure that the Member for Ste. Rose understands that we are working very hard

2344 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 2004 to make up for the cuts that his government foisted upon this province in the early 1990s. * (14:10) Natural Resources Officers Hiring Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Well, Mr. Speaker, that is somewhat like my grade school children when they came home with a poor report card, and they said, "but, Dad, I am working real hard." These two departments are responsible for water quality in this province, the protection of the standard of water. There has been all sorts of publicity about protection of water but very little action, nothing to back up the legislation.

There is currently a significant number of natural resource officers who are also short– [interjection] There are about 30, in my understanding and, Mr. Speaker, they are also responsible for protection and enforcement of safe water in this province. I wonder if the Minister of Conservation has plans to replace those resource officers. Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, if I were to take two report cards home to my parents, I would rather take home the report card that this government has put together than the one that existed in the 1990s under our friends across the road.

As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, when I went to school, I would have liked to take home a report card as good as the one this government is putting forward. I want to assure the members across the way that the people of Manitoba, the people of Canada, have been very attuned since the incidents at Walkerton and other places. Mr. Speaker, this government is also attuned to the situation that exists– Mr. Speaker: Order. Water Quality Legislation Enforcement Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speaker, recent polls show that 70 percent of Manitobans do not trust this government on the environment and I am quite prepared to stand– [interjection] If this minister is proud of that, then it is time to use standardized tests. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, in this Legislature, we have a Planning Act that has significant impli- cations for agriculture, it has significant implications for human waste, it has significant implications for animal waste; Bill 22, which is also about water quality. All of this action in legislation, none of it enforcement.

Which one of these two ministers is going to take responsibility for enforcement? Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, my advice to the Member for Ste. Rose is to take a good hard look at The Water Protection Act, a good look at The Planning Act and finally decide to get on board with protecting Manitoba's water on behalf of Manitobans. Maybe his report card can improve as well. Education System Funding Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, yesterday in this House the Premier (Mr.

Doer) stated that a hundred million dollars in new funding for schools would be found simply by reading page 10 in his budget. However, this contradicts earlier statements by his Minister of Education, who said in Estimates on May 13 that as a result of the change made on page 10 of the budget, and I quote, "There will be no change to the total school division revenues for this year." My question is to the Minister of Education: Is the Premier wrong when he says that there is $100 million in new funding for schools in Manitoba? Yes or no. Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Mr.

Speaker, since we have been in office, there has been $105 million in new funding for schools in Manitoba that we put into the base. We promised to fund education at the rate of economic growth and we have delivered on that promise year after year. We promised to cut the education support levy and we have delivered on that promise in the last three years. We have promised to make the system more transparent with respect to the property tax credit.

May 18, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2345 We talk about credit where credit is due. This is a case of property tax credit where property tax credit is due. That $100 million will be transferred directly to the school boards as opposed to going directly to the municipalities. Mrs. Stefanson: I am not talking about last year or the year before or the year before that. I am talking about what the Premier promised yesterday in this House, $100 million new dollars for education in this province.

A quick read over page 10 of the budget clearly shows that the transfer of $100 million in property tax credits to school divisions is merely an administrative change that is revenue neutral to schools. The Minister of Education and officials in the Department of Finance have confirmed this. However, the Premier seemed quite certain that there is $100 million in new funding. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance: Does he agree with his Minister of Education and his Department of Finance or does he agree with the Premier? Who is accurate? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, I am glad the member opposite refers to page 10 in the budget because the first line says, "We have reduced education property taxes by $92 million since 1999." The very next line says, "Despite the challenges of the past year, this budget will find a further $10-million reduction in the residential education support levy. In 2004, our additional ESL reduction will save homeowners $40.50 on a $125,000 home, bringing the total ESL savings since 2001 to $159 for the same home." There is a lot of good information on this page, none of it confirming the accusations of the member opposite. Mrs. Stefanson: Mr.

Speaker, I did not ask about the education property tax credit. I asked specifically, which this government does not seem to understand in its own budget books, about the $100 million that this Premier promised Manitobans yesterday. The Premier unfairly raised the hopes of parents and educators when he inaccurately promised an additional $100 million in new funding, when in fact there is no new funding at all.

Will the Minister of Education commit today to scheduling a press conference for his Premier to explain the property tax credit transfer process so that his Premier does not continue to give parents and educators inaccurate information and the impression that he has given $100 million more in education funding in this province? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I am perfectly willing to provide a briefing to the honourable member opposite with the Minister of Education, to go over the amount of money in capital investment in schools. I am prepared to go over the ESL reductions that we have made.

I am prepared to go over the investments in education– Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, under our rules we have agreed as parties that we would not raise Beauchesne 417, I believe it is, with respect to how questions should be answered in this House. I have been observing very carefully today the questions that were posed, especially by the critic for Education with respect to the Premier's statements that he made to the Free Press .

Yet, in each question we had an avoidance of addressing the issue that was being questioned by the critic. If the Premier wants to avoid that, that is fine, but sooner or later it is time they become accountable and answer the questions that are being posed to them directly rather than skirting the issues and referring back to times in the past and referring to issues that have no connection to the question that is being asked. Let us have some order in this House. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, using the words "referring back to times past" in this House, it is regrettable that is a point of order for the opposition. We have not been raising the points of order under the agreement of this House with respect to

preambles, mid-ambles a nd post-ambles because now we have a different way of proceeding in

2346 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 2004 Question Period. I think it has been flowing better. People are accountable for their questions and their answers before the public, and the Finance Minister has answered the question fully. That is no point of order I would suggest. There is a new set of rules in this House. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

We have an agreement in place dealing with 417, so what I am going to do is I am going to take it under advisement, and I am going to ask the House leaders for a meeting with me. We will discuss the agreement that I believe we had in place. I want that opportunity to meet with the House leaders, so I am going to be taking this one under advisement. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable First Minister, to continue. Mr. Doer: I guess, Mr. Speaker, to continue on, we did place in page 10 in the budget the $100 million. We also placed in the other

section of the budget the reduction of the ESL, a tax reduction savings of an average of $45 per $135,000 homeowner. * (14:20) We did place in the budget the capital invest- ments in education. We did place in the budget the pension liability funding and we demonstrated again over the last four years the $105-million investment in education which, of course, compares to $135 million in offloading in the 1990s. Education System Funding Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Once again, we see this Premier's (Mr. Doer) penchant for giving out flippant comments coming back to haunt him.

We reminded him he was the one that said, "We were not elected to raise taxes," and then he raised taxes. He said he was going to end hallway medicine in six months with $15 million, then he decided that really was not what he was going to do, he was going to end, somehow, that culture. He told the Free Press, and I quote, he said he has been studying plans that would eliminate most of the tax credits along with the special levy, which would allow the Province to provide an additional, and I stress that, an additional $100 million directly to school boards each year. We are simply asking for clarification.

Is this government, is the Premier, the Minister of Finance or the Minister of Education (Mr. Bjornson) planning to reduce or eliminate the property tax credit that they have increased in the la st three years in order to provide this extra $100 million in additional funds? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I refer that member to the famous page 10 in the budget where it reads as follows, "Next year, we intend to transfer $100 million in property tax credits directly to school divisions.

To ensure transparency and equity for homeowners from this transfer, there must be no reduction in benefits to individual recipients. This change will ensure accountability in provincial education funding." That is what we said. That is what we will do. Mr. Loewen: I hope the minister will live up to his word and his budget, but I remind him, his own Department of Finance official says that has nothing to do with new money. That is simply an adminis- trative measure in how the money is delivered to the school boards. The question is simple.

The Premier is saying we have $100 million of additional, i.e., "new" money to give to school boards. There is nowhere in the budget that this money is identified, despite what the Premier claims and the Finance Minister claims on page B10. The people of Manitoba deserve an answer. He has made a comment that there is going to be $100 million worth of new money. We simply want to know where it is going to come from. Is it going to come from cutting the property tax credit? If not, where else? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I just read very clearly what we stated we would do in the budget into the record.

We plan to transfer $100 million in property

May 18, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2347 tax credits directly to school divisions. This will ensure transparency and equity for homeowners. There must, however, be no reduction in benefits to individual recipients. This change will ensure accountability in provincial education funding. That is what we said in the budget. That is what we plan to do, Mr. Speaker, and that is in addition to the $105 million of extra resources we have provided for school divisions since 1999, which is a reversal of the cuts of the 1990s. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, that is not in dispute. It is in the budget. It is there.

That is fine. Do it. But it is just an administrative move. The Premier is out telling the public that he is going to find additional new money, $100 million worth of new money. That is what he is saying. Now maybe he has been misquoted. Maybe the story is not accurate and, if that is so, he can stand up in the House today and refute it. That will answer the question as well. I would simply ask someone on that side of the House to indicate to the people of Manitoba, and maybe the Finance Minister should brief the Premier on this issue, but where would the $100 million of additional new money come from.

Nothing in the budget, nothing at all. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I hesitate to mention the rules that govern the House. This is a hypothetical question. It has nothing to do with what we said in the budget. What we said in the budget– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, the language we used in the budget is extremely clear. It is listed on page 10. It is extremely clear. We will make a transfer to school divisions for transparency and accountability purposes. There will be no net reductions to recipients of the property tax credit.

This will ensure transparency and account ability like it has not occurred in the past. By the way, Mr. Speaker, the property tax credits have been improved from $250 to $400 since we have come to office, an increase of $56 million, unlike the cut of $75 per homeowner under the members of the opposition when they were in government. Heritage Buildings Capital Grants Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism says he is committed to heritage buildings.

Yet, in committee yesterday he said that only $210,000 has been allocated this fiscal year for capital grants with respect to heritage buildings. Mr. Speaker, in 1999, $300,000 was allocated toward heritage buildings capital funding. Over five budgets, the NDP reduced the allocation to $210,000, a 30% decrease. There are 108 provincial heritage sites, most of them buildings, and 195 municipal heritage sites, many of them buildings as well, yet this government appears to care so little about the buildings that the amount allocated is nowhere near what is needed to maintain our Manitoba heritage.

I ask the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism why his government has allocated so little to support heritage buildings. Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, the Member for River Heights will remember that we did debate this yesterday in our Estimates process. He will also realize, in spite of the budgetary considerations that we have had to live with, in spite of that, we have been able to designate 12 buildings in the province of Manitoba in just the last year as heritage buildings. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased that the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism has designated 12 more buildings. There are quite a number more that need be designated as well, but designated buildings are not enough if you do not allocate the support to look after them. This NDP government is all for show and designation and not for support and action and making sure things are looked after. The amount of funds for capital expenditures on heritage buildings has gone down 30 percent. Why has the government given such a low priority to heritage buildings? Why has the government support in this area been so feeble?

2348 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 2004 Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the member opposite asked about the government. Perhaps he might want to go north of Portage Avenue, go to Red River College where the third phase of restoration of that historic Exchange Building is almost complete with not one cent from the federal government in terms of post-secondary education grants. He might want to go to The Forks which, of course, restored the whole warehouse and terminal areas into historic buildings for the benefit of all the public.

He may want to go down Portage Avenue and look at the Heaps Building, again a project of restoration. He might want to go out to the University of Manitoba and look at how much work is going on in some of the historic buildings across Manitoba. You have to look across departments. We have had this discussion before with the member when he talks about the Water Stewardship Department. You have to look at the infrastructure money going to clean up the sewage in the city of Winnipeg.

You have to go from one department to the other, and you will see great commitment for preserving the history of this province in the action of this government. Immigration Apprenticeship Program Foreign Credentials Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, at times the Minister of Immigration sees the light. Yesterday in committee she said she would support and advocate an issue which is very important to many Manitobans, and that is in regard to an apprenticeship program that would go a long way in recognizing foreign credentials that immigrants bring to the province of Manitoba.

It was encouraging to see that commitment come from the Minister of Immigration. My question is for the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger). Given the recent popularity of the minister advocating for this program, is the Minister of Finance prepared to ensure that the resources will be there so that in fact it will be reality, that we will see a program that would be an apprenticeship for immigrant credentials? * (14:30) Hon.

Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): I am pleased to inform the member opposite that our qualifications recognition strategy is further along than any other jurisdiction in Canada. [interjection] I ruined the question; well, maybe he will have to ask a better one next time. I explained to the member in Estimates yesterday that we had a brochure on apprenticeship qualification, and I suggested to him that maybe he could get a copy of that brochure and read through it so he really understood what we are doing here in Manitoba. Helen Betty Osborne Foundation Government Support Ms.

Kerri Irvin-Ross (Fort Garry): The Helen Betty Osborne Foundation was established in 2000 to honour the legacy of this Aboriginal woman murdered in 1971. I understand that the Minister of Advanced Education and Training recently increased the support for the foundation's work. Could the minister please inform the House of this important initiative? Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Training): I thank the member for the question.

Last week I was pleased to join members of the Helen Betty Osborne Foundation, members of the family and others at the annual gala dinner and, while there, I did announce a $150,000 endowment for the Helen Betty Osborne Foundation, $50,000 for three years, in each of those three years. The Helen Betty Osborne Foundation is named after Helen Betty Osborne, whose life was tragically shortened in 1971.

I know all members remember this tragic event, and in honour of Helen Betty Osborne, who wished to be a teacher, the foundation offers scholarships to st udents enrolled in post- secondary education, to First Nations students, to Métis students and to Inuit students. This is one more piece of the strategy put forward by my department to address Aboriginal education, a strategy I share with Education. Non-Smokers Health Protection Act Legislative Process Mr. Leonard Derkach (Opposition House Leader): My question is to the Minister of Healthy Living.

The Minister of Healthy Living has been out and about, making statements about the non-smoking bill. He has indicated to people in the public that the

May 18, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2349 opposition of this House is obstructing the passage of the non-smoking bill in this House. I would like to ask the minister what the basis of his comments are. Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister responsible for Healthy Living): Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the opposition that when people have asked whether they could present, I have referred them to the Clerk's office, I referred them to my office where they phone, and let them know that they are going to present, and I will ask them to phone your caucus office.

What we want to do is we want to make sure that we work co-operatively to make sure that we can move this bill forward to committee and then to passage. Mr. Derkach: The reason I rise on this question is because the Minister of Justice, who is also the Government House Leader, and I concur, and we also meet on which bills should be forwarded to debate in this House on certain days, on days when bills are debated. It is through agreement that we bring forward bills that will be debated on certain days.

But the Minister of Healthy Living has been out giving the impression to people, he has been stating directly that the opposition is obstructing the passage of the non-smokers bill. The reason this is offe nsive is because the bill was recommended by this side of the House. I want to ask the minister again: What is the basis for his comments? Mr. Rondeau: As I explained to the member, what I have done so far is I am looking forward to having people present to the bill. I referred people who want to speak to the bill and I look forward to bringing it to committee because I look forward to hearing from the public.

What I have done is I have referred people: (

a) to my office, (

b) to the Clerk's office, and (

c) to the opposition. I have had a chat with the honourable members opposite, a number of them, to tell them that what we want to do is we want to hear from Manitobans. We want to move forward in this good public health initiative, in co-operation, as we have previously. Mr. Derkach: Then my last question has to be to the Government House Leader. I would ask the Government House Leader whether or not he would meet with his colleagues, and especially the Minister of Healthy Living who has been spreading misinformation in the public about the position of the opposition on this bill, Mr.

Speaker; and whether, in fact, he would actually inform him that bills of this nature come to this House through a co-operative effort between the Government House Leader and the Opposition House Leader. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I know government House business can take place in the usual forum, Mr. Speaker, but I trust that the honourable minister is keen to see the matter proceed in a co-operative way as was in the spirit of its introduction. Provincial Sales Tax Professional Services Mrs. Leanne Ro wat (Minnedosa): Mr.

Speaker, rising fuel prices are costing Winnipeg Harvest an additional $700 a month. To add insult to injury, the Doer government is forcing Winnipeg Harvest and all other food banks in the province to pay PST on fees for accounting services, knowing that food banks must provide financial statements and hire an accountant to prepare them. My question is to the Minister of Family Services and Housing: Seeing as food banks receive no government funding, why does this government insist on increasing taxation on food banks? Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Thank you for the question.

It gives me the opportunity to inform the House that most of these non-profit or ganizations are in fact made up of people who come in and sit on the board in a volunteer position. If the food banks have people with the expertise in accounting, then they will not be charged the PST. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Bruce Middle School Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): I was delighted last night to attend the

2350 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 2004 Safer Communities Awards and as I had nominated the Bruce Middle School for an award, Mr. Speaker, in the category community-based initiatives, I was delighted that they were nominated and successful. The Bruce Middle School Safe School Com- mittee consists of 12 students who have volunteered to plan and facilitate a school-wide program to educate their peers on issu es such as bullying, Internet safety, substance abuse, vandalism, crime prevention and effective means of reporting unsafe situations. The program started in June 2002.

Each year, students volunteer approximately 50-75 hours toward this initiative. The project has reduced incidents of vandalism in and around the school grounds. Bullying, shoplifting and substance abuse at private parties have also been significantly reduced because students have been empowered to seek adult help for peers making poor decisions. Each year, the creativity and directions taken by the Safe School Committee team have been unique. Last year, they developed an effective anti-bullying campaign and to reduce shoplifting.

This year, the focus has been on educating about the dangers of substance abuse and Internet safety. Mr. Speaker, I was delighted to be in attendance with them last night at the Canad Inns Polo Park. The committee is made up of the following members: Mrs. Ansloos, Robbie Oke, Foster Lyle, Carly Schram, Jessy Ardern, Shannon Robinson, Jade Melkle, Ms. Chartrand, Rachael Luhowy, Neil Hagemeister, Magkie Cheung, Emily Ormande, Cyrena Couvier, Stacie Nixon, and I would like to give special mention, because I know he is retiring, to an extraordinary individual, the principal of Bruce Middle School, Mr.

Bill Cann. * (14:40) Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Water Stewardship. [interjection] No? The honourable Member for Interlake. Arborg Heritage Village Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I was fortunate to meet and work with a group of enthusiastic Katimavik participants at the Arborg and District Multicultural Heritage Village this past weekend. Katimavik is a leading national volunteer service program for young people. On Saturday I took the opportunity to work with them in re-siding the old St. Nicholas parish hall from Poplarfield while others built a deck on to the building.

Other heritage buildings, including the Trausti Vigfusson home, the first home in the area, were worked on as well. The Multicultural Heritage Village is dedicated to showcasing the multicultural history of the Arborg area. This is a great place for the Katimavik youth to experience and learn the history of our rural Manitoba farming communities. I am very proud to be part of a government that has supported the Arborg Heritage Village through Community Places funding and I know that Manitoba Hydro has also supported the development of the village through its programs.

The young participants are in the middle of their seven-month Katimavik program and have been in New Brunswick and British Columbia before coming to Manitoba in April. They are supported by three Katimavik project leaders: Jamie MacDonald, Michael Moore, Jane Conly, as well as Coralie Bezpalko, project co-ordinator for the Katimavik Manitoba cluster. The youth are from all across Canada and are living in the communities of Lorette, Gimli and St. Boniface. This project in Arborg was just one of their many projects in Manitoba.

I want to recognize Pat Eyolfson and Barb Wachal and others from the Arborg and District Multicultural Heritage Village for their leadership and enthusiasm for preserving our rural heritage. They continue to find great ways for young people to understand and appreciate our history. Mr. Speaker, I also want to recognize the commitment to citizenship that these young people have shown in their participation with the Katimavik program. On behalf of all members of the House, I thank them for their hard work and dedication to communities in Manitoba. Richard S. Unruh Mr.

Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): As members know in this House, there are many very talented artists in the Steinbach community. One recently provided me a poem by the name of Richard S. Unruh. The poem was entitled One Great City. "Steinbach, the city of beauty / To keep it that way is everyone's duty / So if we appreciate where

May 18, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2351 we live / Let's all try our best to give / Attention to how we act and react / 'Cause so much in our favor is stacked / Then let's all drive to survive / It's so great to be alive / Let's work and not shirk our duties each day / Happy we have a job to earn our pay / That, by the way, is how this city was built / Hard work put it together like a beautiful quilt / And as we continue to grow / Why not let everyone know / We are proud of past accomplishments / We give those responsible our compliments / The torch is now in our hand / We are living in a wonderful land / There is no end to the potentials / If we stick with the essentials / Our challenge then to City Hall / Is the same as to us all / The future's bright we expect more of the same / No reason to doubt it just stick with the game." Mr.

Speaker, that is Mr. Richard S. Unruh, who provided that poem from the city of Steinbach. He wrote it on May 20, and I want to congratulate him for the work that he continues to do in the arts in our community. Helen Betty Osborne Foundation Mr. Conrad Santos (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, last week the MLA for Wellington was privileged to attend the second annual Helen Betty Osborne gala being held at the Delta Hotel.

The Province of Manitoba created the Helen Betty Osborne Memorial Foundation in December 2000 to honour the memory of Helen Betty Osborne and to help our regional students further their education and career aspirations. Helen Betty Osborne was a 19-year-old Abori- ginal woman from Norway House First Nation who was studying to become a teacher to serve her community. Her noble goal ended when Helen Betty Osborne was killed in 1971 in The Pas. Could anything good come out of something bad?

The establishment of the Helen Betty Osborne Foun- dation is proof that something good can come out of bad because it opens the educational door of opportunity to many. Why did Helen Betty Osborne have to die to open this door of educational opportunity to many? It is written, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone, but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." John. All Aboriginal students in Manitoba, First Nations, Inuit and Métis, enrolled in post-secondary status are eligible to apply for the bursary award administered by the foundation.

The first bursaries were award in 2001. To date, the foundation has provided a total of $54,500 to 17 individuals. At this dinner, the Advanced Education and Training Minister announced this year's $50,000 contribution. We all hope that this money and the foundation will continue to assist the next generation of Aboriginal Manitobans in pursuing their post- secondary education studies and help them enter rewarding careers. We also hope this tragedy and this lesson from the past will help serve as a gift of opportunity for the First Nations, Métis and Inuit peoples of Manitoba. Pool of the Black Star Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, behind the Grand Staircase is the Pool of the Black Star. I believe that Manitoba gets thousands of people that come through this beautiful building every year. I am of the opinion that we should take advantage of that, at the same time do something very positive in regard to the history of our province and our heritage, and we should be very proud of that. The walls and ceilings of the area could be a celebration of Manitoba's rich cultural diversity and remarkable history. We could have artists from all over the province contributing a panel of Manitoba's history.

We could have artists paint a mural which would depict the contributions of all cultural groups who have settled in Manitoba and built this province and developed this land, a history that begins with the First Nations groups and ends with the illustration of a wonderful cultural mosaic that Manitoba has become. Mr. Speaker, I truly do believe that we should take advantage of what we have in that Pool of the Black Star which today is a white-washed wall and ceiling, if you like. Given the number of people that we do have come through the Legislature, I think that it would be a positive step forward.

2352 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 2004 We need to be proud of our heritage and I just think that this would be a wonderful thing to happen inside the Manitoba Legislature. I thank you for the opportunity to be able to get my thoughts on the record. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): I wonder if there is leave, Mr. Speaker, to revert to tabling of reports to table supps. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave in the House to revert back to tabling of reports? [Agreed] TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the following Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, the 2004-2005 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Manitoba Civi l Service Commission, Manitoba Employee Pensions and Other Costs and Manitoba Enabling Appropriations and Other Appropriations. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Would you canvass the House to see if there is consent to change the Estimates sequence so that Energy, Science and Technology is moved from 254 into the Chamber to follow Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, to apply permanently? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to change the Estimates sequence such that the Estimates for the Department of Energy, Science and Technology are moved from Room 254 into the Chamber to follow the Estimates for Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, with this change to apply permanently? Is there agreement? [Agreed] Mr.

Mackintosh: Would you please call Supply, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 23(5), the House will now resolve into the Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) INTERGOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TRADE * (15:00) Mr. Chairperson (H arry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade. As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will follow in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): I guess I would like to start off today by welcoming the new minister, who has just, it has been brought to my attention, taken over the responsibilities of Inter- governmental Affairs and Trade, the honourable Member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). I would welcome her to the new position.

I could take the liberty to say that when I left last Thursday, I believe it was, when we were in Es timates at some 5 o'clock in the afternoon, and turned it over to my colleague from Emerson, I did not realize that he would be so tough on the minister that she would quit today. I would not get away with that because I know that Jack put on the record his respect for the previous minister. Mr. Chairperson: Please use the name of the constituency or the portfolio. Thank you. Mr. Maguire: My apologies, Mr. Chairperson. I could not get away with saying that Jack was the person that was sitting in this chair.

The Member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) indi- cated his credit to the Mini ster of Intergovernmental Affairs that was here and her credibility amongst the people of Manitoba that he had spoken with. I also would like to voice my congratulations to the previous minister on the work that she has done in Intergovernmental Affairs and particularly Trade, in the years she has held that portfolio since being elected. It is my understanding that she has main- tained that since '99 in the election.

I would like to just add my own congratulations to the former member and the minister, and wish her all the best in any future plans that she may have. I understand that

May 18, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2353 she is stepping down to consider her political future as minister, and I certainly wish her all the best in her future endeavours. To the Member for Swan River, the Minister of Agriculture and Deputy Premier, I welcome you to the responsibilities of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade, at least I am assu ming for now and forever or for the future at least at this point. Maybe not forever, that would not be what a member of the opposition would say, but I would like to welcome her to this position.

She may have to check with the persons, of course her staff working with her, on some of these questions, but I am sure that she is very familiar with a lot of these areas anyway. Some of the questions that the Member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) was asking the other day were dealing in the whole area of trade and rural initiatives and processing and a number of those. When I left, I was asking a few questions around the issues of staffing in some of the areas.

One of the ones the minister was kind enough to indicate to me the position is being held by WestMan office, the Cabinet minister's office, and there was a PM3 position there that was vacant. I wonder if the minister can enlighten me as to just why that position became vacant. Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Acting Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade): Mr. Chairperson, from time to time, people make decisions to change their position or move to different positions. This position has only been vacant since March 2 of this year, and there just has not been the opportunity to fill that position. Mr.

Maguire: Can the minister indicate to me whether that person resigned to seek other employ- ment, or if they were let go or what the circumstances where? Ms. Wowchuk: The individual was in the position for a short time. I am not sure why she left the position or what other job she has gone to. I would have to take that as notice and then get back to the member as to where this individual has gone. Mr. Maguire: Can the minister indicate to me who that person was? Ms. Wowchuk: The position was filled by Donna Everitt, who is now working in the Premier's office.

An individual, Lydia Comty, came into the position for a short time and I am not sure where she has gone to, but the position is now vacant. Mr. Maguire: Thank you, Madam Minister. So you were indicating that while Ms. Comty has left, the minister is not aware of where she went. Ms. Wowchuk: That is right. I am not aware where that individual has gone. She was there on a temporary basis when one individual left. The position has been vacant since March 2, and has not been filled yet. Mr. Maguire: Can the minister indicate to me what the intentions are to fill that position?

How soon they would look at filling that position? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairperson, that position is open right now. There are other staff at the office and no decision has been made as to how soon the position will be filled. Mr. Maguire: I thank the minister for that. Can she give some indication of how many total employees there are in Intergovernmental Affairs Department, or what a full complement is? Ms. Wowchuk: The full complement is 298.2. Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chairperson, the minister has indicated that 298.2 employees would be a full complement.

Can she give me an indication if the department is full now, or how many vacancies there are? Ms. Wowchuk: There are 17.5 vacancies in the department. Mr. Maguire: Yes, I was just commiserating here with the Member for Rive r Heights (Mr. Gerrard). Can I get the minister's answer again, 77 did you say? Ms. Wowchuk: 17.5. Mr. Maguire: Oh, 17.5 vacancies. Okay. Can the minister indicate that is, of course, for both depart- ments, Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade? Ms. Wowchuk: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Maguire: Is there any breakdown in that between those areas or does everybody work on one?

2354 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 2004 Ms. Wowchuk: There is one vacancy in Trade. The balance, which would be 16.5, are in Inter- governmental. Mr. Maguire: Can the minister indicate to me who the one in Trade would be, what area that would be in? * (15:10) Ms. Wowchuk: The position that is vacant is an events co-ordinator. This person is responsible for logistics and planning of incoming and outgoing trade missions, and those kinds of events. There are two events co-ordinators in the department. One is vacant.

That position is vacant because that individual chose to make a career change and go to a different position. Mr. Maguire: A career change with another position within government? Ms. Wowchuk: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Maguire: I just wondered where that might be. Ms. Wowchuk: Highways and Transportation. Mr. Maguire: I may have missed it, but was the minister able to tell me who that was? Ms. Wowchuk: The individual's name was Kim Unrau. She went from this events co-ordinator position to a position in highways and Transportation. Mr. Maguire: Mr. Chairman, I will not ask for each of the positions.

That is 16.5 that the minister has just indicated in IGA, but can she just give me an indication of where the bulk of those vacancies are? Mr. Cris Aglugub, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, 6.5 of those positions are in Winnipeg; 11 are in rural; 6 of the positions are in assessment, or in the assessment branch. Mr. Maguire: Can the minister give me an indication as to how soon the few of those would be filled, or if they are proceeding to fill them, or if some of them will be part of an attrition process? Ms. Wowchuk: The department is moving to fill all of those positions.

Some have been approved. Some have not been approved at this point. The department is going through the process. But, as I say, at this stage some of them have been approved and there is a competition planned. But not all of them are slated to be filled now. Mr. Maguire: But the minister does expect them all to be filled at some point during this year. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, some of those could be part of vacancy management that government has and they will be rotated and moved in as there is the opportunity. But some of them could be part of our vacancy management program. Mr.

Maguire: Also, if the minister would bear with me, I was asking her predecessor on Thursday a question around Human Resource Management, and one of the positions there. There was one position, a managerial position, that was still there but it seemed to be a considerable change in salary. It went from 56,300 down to 46,000. The minister indicated to me that there was a change of position. Someone left. It was refilled. In that regard, I wonder if the minister can indicate to me who left that position and who came into it. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chairman, the individual who retired was Zinovia Solomon and she left because of retirement. The position was vacant for almost a year. It was filled by Lindsay Robinson. When Ms. Solomon left, she was at the top of the pay scale. When the new individual was hired, she was at the bottom of the pay scale, so that is the reason for the difference in the salary. Mr. Maguire: I wonder if the minister can indicate to me the Municipal Board and, as I turn to that particular area, who the members are of that board. Who is the chairman, I guess, first of all?

If she could provide me with the names of the chair and the vice-chair and other committee member names– Ms. Wowchuk: The chair of the Municipal Board is Mr. Peter Diamant, and the vice-chair is Ms. Lori Lavoie. There is a long list of individuals who serve on the Municipal Board, 43 members, and of course

May 18, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2355 they do not all serve at the same time. As hearings come up, they rotate into those areas. Mr. Maguire: Could I just have the minister provide me with that list at some point? I do not need it today, but if she could just make that available in the next few days, I would appreciate just an update on the list. Ms. Wowchuk: Yes, I could provide the member with a list of the members of the Municipal Board. Mr.

Maguire: I wanted to look at the change in Provincial Planning Services, page 35 of these Supplementary Estimates, where it indicates there was about $109,000 reduction in that area. I know there was a considerable decrease in salaries of some $100,000 in that area. Other Expenditures are down and I wonder if the minister can indicate if this is part of a change in this department. Can she just explain why the differences? Item (3) under that is Recoverable from Urban and Rural Economic Development Initiatives, quite a bit a less than recoverable before.

I wonder if she could just outline to me what the changes are in that area. Ms. Wowchuk: There were several programs that were in place previously that were completed. For example, there was the Capital Region review that was funded last year, but that is completed. That was not necessary this year, as well as the planning and land use policy, which is completed, and the community profiles. So thos e are the projects that were completed and the funding was not required for them this year, and that is why there is a reduction in the budget. Mr. Maguire: So there were no staff changes in that area? Ms.

Wowchuk: There was one staff year that was reduced in the policy planner, and then there were some adjustments that were made as well, but it was one staff year that was reduced. Mr. Maguire: The reduction of $139,000 in Supplies and Services under Provincial Planning Services. Can the minister indicate to me if that was just a function of staffing, or if that was as a result of very few of these committees sitting? * (15:20) Ms. Wowchuk: Yes, those are the costs for the Capital Region review and the work that was done there. That is the amount of reduction that takes place, because that review is now complete.

Mr. Maguire: In regard to the Rural Community Development areas and urban community develop- ment areas, there were subs tantial changes in regard to the budgets in those areas. I wonder if the minister can indicate to me if the $500,000 decrease in Estimates of Expenditures under Unconditional Grants, Rural Community Development, what decision was made around those, some half-a-million-dollar decrease in that area. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr.

Chairman, that reduction was made in anticipation of the reductions in VLT revenues because of the smoking by-laws and given that anticipated reduction, the areas of reduction in the unconditional grants. That is formula-driven on the amount of money that is paid out to municipalities based on the amount of money that is generated through VLT revenues. Mr. Maguire: Can the minister indicate to me what analysis the department used to determine why non- smoking would cause a half-million-dollar reduction? Ms. Wowchuk: It is based on the experience of the city of Winnipeg and the city of Brandon.

When they introduced the no smoking by-law, there was a reduction in revenues in both those jurisdictions. It is anticipated we will see the same impact in rural Manitoba when the smoking by-law becomes law. Those projections come from the Lotteries Corporation, who track very closely what happens in each facility and each jurisdiction. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Mr. Maguire: I appreciate the minister's response because I was looking for some background as to where that may be. Of course , if Lotteries is coming forward with that information themselves, certainly they would have a better idea, I am sure.

I appreciate that the department has taken that advice and looked at the change. However, I believe it was the fall of 2002 that the smoking ban came in in Brandon. Can the department indicate to me just when the smoking ban in Winnipeg and Brandon took place?

2356 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 2004 Ms. Wowchuk: I believe the ban came in in the latter part of 2002. So that meant the Lotteries Corporation had a year's experience to look at as to what the impact was on revenues with the smoking ban. And it was that information that was used, the information that was provided to us by Lotteries, giving an estimate of what the decline would be in rural Manitoba when the ban comes into place there. So it is based on a year's experience in the city and about a year in Brandon as well. Mr. Maguire: I appreciate that. That is how I recall it.

I appreciate the minister's answer in relation to virtually both Brandon and Winnipeg there, I think it is, and I agree that as a temporary movement there may be come reduction in income from that area, all things being equal in those areas. I am assuming that though further studies might have been done or looked at in regard to VLT income and its impacts in other areas. I wonder if the minister can tell me whether or not the department looked at other jurisdictions that have had smoking bans put in place.

There are a number of states in the U.S., it is my recollection, that have had, or cities in Canada that have had, non-smoking bans put in place prior to the ones in Manitoba. I wonder if the minister can indicate to me just exactly what other studies they looked at. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, that is not the responsibility of this department. It is the respon- sibility of the Lotteries Corporation, and they may have looked at other jurisdictions, but I do not believe that that would be necessary.

We have information right here in this province, and, clearly, there was information that the Lotteries Corporation collected from the city of Winnipeg and the city of Brandon, and that was the basis. Again, I would say to the member that he may want to raise that with the Minister responsible for Lotteries, because they may have done further studies, but my view is that there was sufficient data here in Manitoba for us to enable the corporation to make that decision. This depart- ment flows the money through. We do not have the responsibility of making the decisions on doing the surveys or preparing the studies.

Mr. Maguire: I appreciate that, and I am hearing what the minister is saying that, obviously, they have taken the advice of Lotteries and that this is the information that has come to Intergovernmental Affairs from Lotteries. Ms. Wowchuk: And the money comes from Lotteries. We do not collect it through this depart- ment. We are really a flow-through from the Lotteries to the municipalities. Mr. Maguire: So the minister is indicating that, obviously, the funding for these programs coming out of the VLT funds is dependent on what Lotteries allows her to have in that department. Ms. Wowchuk: That is right.

There is a formula that is used to determine, based on the amount of revenue generated, the amount of money that is paid out. Thirty-five percent of the money generated goes back to the municipalities, 10 percent is uncondi- tional grants and 25 percent goes through the various programs. Mr. Maguire: Madam Minister, I guess the only concern I have in this, or one thing that I would put forward in regard to the analysis here–maybe it was taken into consideration. I do not know whether the acting minister would know this in their department or not.

But, being the minist er in that area and, of course, it is a bit difficult for this minister to do that because she just took over an hour ago. I guess I am just querying as to, however, her being a member of Treasury Board, knowing full well that the govern- ment was bringing in $75-million worth of new VLTs to put into the province of Manitoba, whether or not she expects that ther e would be an increase in revenue from the new machines that are going in, in regard to the replacement across the province of those machines in many of the locations in Manitoba.

I am sure that they have indicated in the House that there would be a net benefit to the Lotteries Commission, and if that is the case, why would that not be translated into this minister's department? Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, the member is aware that there is a plan to refresh the VLT machines, that a plan that has been place for some time, and given the fact that there is no ability to repair some of the machines that are there because they are just outdated and there are no parts available for many of them, it was necessary to move forward. That will happen over a period of time.

The decision on the budget had to be made based on the information that we have today. The information that we had when this budget was being put in place is that, with the introduction of a smoking ban, there has been a decline in revenues. We anticipate we will see that same decline in rural Manitoba. We had to base our

May 18, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2357 budget based on the facts that we had, and that is why there is a decline. Should there be an increase in the future? This is formula driven, and if there is an increase, then adjustments will be made. * (15:30) Mr. Maguire: I am assuming, then, that the minister was of the opinion that the smoking ban legislation will become law in Manitoba shortly? Ms. Wowchuk: I think we have an all-party agreement that a smoking ban should be introduced, and there is legislation in the House. I anticipate that that legislation will pass this session.

We were making our decisions on this budget based on the all- party report and other comments that were made. I anticipate that there will be a ban on smoking in all of Manitoba. It is quite interesting, even without legislation, that there are many facilities that I now go into in rural Manitoba that, despite the fact that there is no ban, are imposing their own ban. So, if the member is asking me for my opinion based on the legislation, I anticipate there will be a smoking ban in rural Manitoba. Mr.

Maguire: Of course, I would just like to put on record, as was done in Question Period today by our House leader, that the Minister for Healthy Living (Mr. Rondeau) has put some erroneous statements in the public in regard to our side of the House being in favour of the present bill that is before. We were a part of that all-party committee and did make recommendations that have not totally been acted on by the government in various manners, and so we have some concerns with the bill particularly. I just wanted to put that on the record.

But I would agree with the minister that in rural Manitoba many communities are taking it upon themselves to have no-smoking by-laws in their arenas and the community halls, and certainly in those areas, but it is not universal. Most bills never are, but I would just like to point out the differences that the minister may or may not be aware of in regard to some of the statements that have been on record.

So I guess, just to go back to finish off with the Rural Community Development program, the minister is indicating that, in the supplementaries here, they have indicated that the activity in that area has distributed funds to 196 municipalities and northern communities, based on the formula that she has spoken of. Is she looking at any other programming or areas to make up the shortfall of that half a million dollars for the areas of Rural Community Development or are there any other areas that she can think of that would take up that shortfall? Ms.

Wowchuk: The member talked about his concern about the legislat ion and the fact that comments were made. I would encourage him to talk to his House leader, get that legislation moving along and get their comments onto the record. Then, if he has some concerns with the legislation, that would be the right place to make those public and get the debate going. With respect to the shortfall that the member talked about, this has always been formula driven, and it goes up and down from time to time.

Municipalities accept the fact that there could be an increase or a decrease in the amount of money, and they just work within that. This has never been a fixed amount of money that municipalities anticipate to be the same amount each year. They know that some years it could be a litt le higher and some years it could be a little lower. Mr. Maguire: I guess before I leave, I am going to come back to that in a moment, but I wanted to just ask a few questions in re gard to the information systems that I see on page 55 of the supplementary statements. Staffing, of course, has changed the same.

I am assuming that there may be some changes there with the dollar values, but, because the staffing numbers are the same, 15.3 is the indication there, full-time equivalent staff people, I wonder if the minister can indicate to me whether there were personnel changes there th at increased the staff salaries to the tune of around $45 million in that area. Ms. Wowchuk: If the member could clarify, did he indicate $45 million? Mr. Maguire: Pardon me, $45,000. I would like to correct that. Yes, it is $45,000 in that area, not 45 million, obviously. An Honourable Member: Nice try, though. Mr.

Maguire: Well, it would have been, yes. Somebody would have got a huge raise in that area. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chairman, there have been no changes in this department. That increase in cost is

2358 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 2004 merit increase and adjustments to salaries, as well as general salary increases. That is good. I was just going to add something else in there, but it is just general salary increases and other salary adjustments. That is the only change in this portion of the Estimates. Mr. Maguire: Well, I note as well that there was an allowance for a reduction in overtime, that there was, I believe in 2003-04, some $10,000 in that area that were saved, and no allowance for it is '04-05. I am assuming that was part of it as well. Ms.

Wowchuk: There is no overtime provision, so that is also part of the reduction. But there was none last year either. Mr. Maguire: I know that because they are fairly parallel. I know that our critic for Urban Affairs on the Intergovernmental side as well, the Member for Southdale, has some questions in regard to urban strategies and urban programming. Because it fits so well with what I was discussing in Rural Community Development, I would turn it over to the Member for Southdale for some time. Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Firstly, I would like to welcome the minister back.

I think last year we did the same Estimates, and we are back at it again. So it is not a new thing for me, and it is certainly not a new thing for her. So what goes around comes around, but through a different direction. * (15:40) As mentioned by my colleague, I would like to ask some questions in regard to the Intergovern- mental Affairs on the urban end of the department. I guess what I will do, I believe we are into a sort of a global questioning of the Estimates book, but I will refer to specific pages so that the department gets a chance to take a look at what I am referring to.

I am going to start off right on page 5 in the listing of expenditures, and it is the Urban Strategic Initiatives, and I notice that it has gone down 13 percent. What I was looking at is, has there been any identification of some of the projects that might be identified for funding in this that constitute the $19.4 million? Ms. Wowchuk: A good portion of that money is the UEDI money and it is down. It was 19.4 last year, and this year it is down to 16.5, so UEDI funds a number of ongoing and one-time projects in Winnipeg and this is clearly tied to the reduction in VLT money.

Approximately $5 million is in direct payments to the City of Winnipeg; it is UEDI money, and that has not been reduced, so that is where the reduction is. The Province also continues to provide $1 million in long-term operating support for com- munity economic development organizations, and funding for ongoing government programs such as Urban Green Team have been maintained at last year's level. Mr. Reimer: I realize that in the overall strategy that the minister had mentioned the amount of monies, but can she give me any indication as to some of the projects that may be under this initiative? Ms.

Wowchuk: Some of the programs that were supported last year and continue to be supported this year under UEDI are the Urban Green Team, Jubilee Fund, SEED Winnipeg, North End Housing Project, Community Ownership Solutions Incorporated, Destination Winnipeg, The Winnipeg Convention Centre Corporation, General Council of Winnipeg Community Centres, Manitoba Arts Council, Trade and Investment strategy, Winnipeg ambulance services, and the Capital Region review. Mr. Reimer: I believe those are all covered off on page 91 of the book.

In the flowchart that we have before us on the same page, or actually, right across on page 4, it has the Manitoba office in Ottawa. Could the minister tell me who the person is in Ottawa that is manning this office? Ms. Wowchuk: The individual's name is Jim Stewart. Mr. Reimer: Has this individual been in the Manitoba office there for quite a while, or is this a relatively new appointment? Ms. Wowchuk: This individual is a long-term trade employee and he has been in Ottawa for at least 10 years, if not longer, he has been at that office. There has been no change if that is what the member is looking for.

May 18, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2359 Mr. Reimer: Thank you very much. That is what I was wondering, whether there had been a change in that particular area. Moving on, I do not know whether my colleague had covered this initially on page 9, but Executive Support, there are eight individuals listed as execu- tive support in that area. I was wondering whether the minister could give me more information as to who those persons are. I believe there are eight people listed in that particular area. Ms.

Wowchuk: The executive support consists of the deputy minister, my executive assistant, special assistant, the ministerial secretary, the assistant to the deputy minister, the deputy minister's secretary and the administrative secretary, for a total of eight positions. Mr. Reimer: The minister's special assistant, execu- tive assistant, are they included in that list too? Ms. Wowchuk: Yes, they are. Mr. Reimer: Thank you. Could the minister read in the record the names of the special assistant or assistants and the executive assistant too, please? Ms.

Wowchuk: The people in those positions right now are Joseph Warbanski, who is a special assis- tant, and Audrey Paynter is the executive assistant. Mr. Reimer: Further down on the page there, it has the Canada-Manitoba Agreements. Are there any agreements in force right now? I notice that there are six people involved with this particular section. Are there any Canada-Manitoba agreements that are being negotiated right now? Ms.

Wowchuk: The program the member refers to as the Canada-Manitoba Agreements, there was the Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Agreement which is fully committed and money is still flowing through that program. We are in the middle of negotiating and completing the next program, which is called the Manitoba rural infrastructure program and that is soon to be announced. * (15:50) There was the Economic Development Agree- ment, which is also fully allocated, but there is still money moving on that one.

The new agreement is the Economic Partnership Agreement that has already been signed, and there is discussion and negotiations going on on the Urban Development Agreement with the federal government and the City of Winnipeg. There are a variety of programs that are in one stage winding down, but still work being done on them because although they are fully allocated; the funds have not all been paid out of them. There are new agreements that are being negotiated. Some are announced and some are pending announcements. Mr.

Reimer: In regard to the Urban Development Agreement, I noticed in the breakdown of Estimates of Expenditures that there is a total number, as was outlined by the minister in regard to the rural and economic partnership and the Urban Development Agreement. Is there a breakdown as to the amount of money that is sort of earmarked towards the Urban Development Agreement out of the amount that is shown in the Estimates book? Ms. Wowchuk: For the current year it is a total of $1 million. There is 800 included in the department and a further 200 that is included in the Canada- Manitoba Enabling Vote. Mr.

Reimer: So then roughly $1.2 million, no, pardon me– Ms. Wowchuk: There is $1 million, $800,000 that is listed in the departmental Estimates and then there is another additional $200,000 that is in Canada- Manitoba Enabling Vote. So it is a total of $1 million. Mr. Reimer: The Urban Development portion is approximately $1 million. The total for the Estimates book for the Canada-Manitoba Agreements is almost $12.4 million. Would the rest of the money then be allocated to the other two programs? Ms.

Wowchuk: If we look at page 69 of the Estimates book, the member will see that under the Infrastructure Programs the amount is approximately $10,797,800. Under the Economic Partnership Agreement there is $800,000 and under the Urban Development Agreement there is $800,000, for a total of $12.39 million. Mr. Reimer: The Infrastructure Program for approximately $10.7 million then, are there any

2360 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 2004 programs in that Infrastructure component that are strictly urban? Ms. Wowchuk: Under the whole Canada-Manitoba agreement, there are about $98 million worth of projects that are for the city of Winnipeg. Those have been identified. The amount of money that is in this budget is the anticipated amount of cash flow for this year. There are a lot more projects in that that are for the city of Winnipeg. Mr. Reimer: I am just trying to visualize in my mind the programs.

If you look at the listing in the book and the Infrastructure Programs with $10.7 million approximately, and then the Urban Develop- ment with $800,000, if you are saying that a fair portion of that $10.7 is Urban Development pro- grams, I just wondered which ones they might be and which ones could be identified. Ms. Wowchuk: There are a variety of projects that have been approved that are under this program, projects such as the Waterfront Drive, the Redwood Bridge renewal, the CanWest Global Park expansion, others might be the Red River Community Centre.

So there are a variety of projects that have been approved to be funded under the agreement. Mr. Reimer: I have some other questions on the expenditures in the book. There was a question that I was wanting to ask the minister in regard to The City of Winnipeg Act, I know it is not in the book here but The City of Winnipeg Act, whether there has been any movement on a draft, or proposals, or any type of new legislation that is proposed in regard to The City of Winnipeg Act. Have there been any changes in that? Ms. Wowchuk: As the member is aware, there was a new City of Winnipeg Act brought in last year.

As with any legislation, we always review it and work with the City. They will look at their legislation that is there and if there is a need for some changes, but there are no draft proposal s that I could share with the member right now. Mr. Reimer: In fact, I think that the minister and I had this conversation last year in regard to The City of Winnipeg Act.

My understanding was that this was more or less a phased-in approach, a redrafting if you want to call it, of The City of Winnipeg Act, with a consultation process being put in place, or proposed, between the City and the Province, the end product being a redraft of The City of Winnipeg Act. I was just wondering whether there has been any type of movement toward that, or whether there have been any overtures towards getting any type of a redraft of The City of Winnipeg Act. * (16:00) Ms. Wowchuk: As I said, the act was just brought in.

It is a very enabling act, and the City is really just getting used to the new act and working with it. We continue to work with the City on issues such as planning. As they work with the act, we will continue to have discussions with them on where improvements can be made to make their job as municipal leaders easier and to make the act work better, if those are the changes that are needed. But it is an ongoing process. We knew that when you bring in a new act there are changes that may follow after it, but this act does give the City more powers and we will continue to work with them. Mr.

Reimer: I was going to refer back to the book here again, and looking at page 25, it is just curious when you look at the top line, Managerial salaries. It is one of the first times I have seen where salaries have gone down almost $10,000. I know it is $10,000 and in the overall budget it is not a big amount, but I was just curious as to why that number would go down instead of usually the other way, especially for salaries. Ms. Wowchuk: The individual, who was in that position had been there for many years, chose to retire.

That individual was at the top end of the pay scale, was replaced by someone who came in at the bottom end of the pay scale, and that is the difference. Mr. Reimer: Thank you very much. I guess the question was asked already, so I apologize for that. I was going to comment, also, on the fact that the overall financial assi stance for the City of Winnipeg–I am referring again to the book on page 57–where we see a decrease in the funding to the financial assistance for the City of approximately $600,000, and I was just wondering if the minister could comment as to some of the reasoning behind that. Ms.

Wowchuk: This is revenue from VLTs. There has been a decline in the revenues from VLTs. There

May 18, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2361 is a formula by which funds are paid out to the City, and this is the decline that has resulted. Mr. Reimer: Just moving on, actually, into the next page there, still with the operating assistance to the City of Winnipeg. I noticed that the unconditional grant also has gone down. I just wanted to ask a question on the adjustment to reflect programs that are transferred from the City of Winnipeg to the Province. That number seemed static. Is there some reason why that number should be static?

Would it not be going down in a sense because of the–I believe this transfer happened a few years ago and the amount of money is staying static. Would there not be a certain attrition factor in regard to the transferring of programs and coverage from the City to the Province for efficiency's sake, and the savings could be incurred by the Province? Ms. Wowchuk: This is the transfer of social services that were transferred to the City. The previous administration negotiated an agreement, and they agreed upon a fixed amount.

That is the fixed amount that went into the agreement between the City and the Province and now, as costs increase, then the Province has to pick up those costs because it was not formula driven as VLTs is formula driven. This was a fixed cost that was negotiated when the services were transferred to the Province, so now the additional costs are ab sorbed by the Province because it was not worked into the agreement. Mr. Reimer: I will have to go back on my memory of that, because I think I was minister at that time when that was happening. An Honourable Member: And is that what you negotiated? Mr.

Reimer: Well, I have to think back on that one. I noticed the deputy is nodding at that, so I will have to check my thinking on that. On the next page, there, in regard to the line of the provincial expenditure for $5 million for road repair, and a further 1.2 priority capitals projects, the priorities that are set, are they set by the Province in regard to which streets get the paving? Ms. Wowchuk: Of course, if you are putting money into a project, you would like to have some say into which capital projects have moved forward, but those are negotiated between the City and the Province. Mr.

Reimer: I notice that there are two different lines. There is one for the $5 million and then the 1.2 for priority capital projects. Could the minister give me an example of possibly where those capital projects' $1.2 million may be allocated toward? The $5 million for streets, I know, is for streets, but I am questioning actually the $1.2 million. Ms. Wowchuk: The $1.2 million that the member refers to is not allocated. It is money that is there.

When certain issues may arise where money is needed and that is agreed to by the City and the Province, and they work at it together, but, at this specific time, that money is not allocated. It will be used through the year as ne eded on projects that are jointly agreed upon. Mr. Reimer: Am I right in stating that the priority, then, is a priority that is put forth by the Province or a priority that is put forth by the City? Ms.

Wowchuk: Generally, it is an emerging issue that the City may see arising so, usually, it is the City that would come forward with these issues and have discussion with the Province on what should move forward, but issues can arise during a year that have to be addressed, and, as I say, they are generally brought forward by the City. Mr. Reimer: Further into the book, actually on the next page, 61, the Unconditional Grants, I guess that is more or less the Rural Community Development. Am I right in assuming that is not an urban strategy? It is not an urban initiative for Urban Development, that $6.9 million? Ms.

Wowchuk: Those are the unconditional grants that go to the rural municipalities, and that is the percentage of money that is derived from VLT revenues. That is why there is a decline in that line. * (16:10) Mr. Reimer: I wonder whether the minister could give us an update on the new Canada-Manitoba Infrastructure Program that is under negotiation right now–I believe it is for around $75 million with three levels of government–and as to whether there has

2362 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 2004 been any type of formalization on that program and when we may see anything happening on that. It is similar to the old Winnipeg Development Agreement. Ms. Wowchuk: I believe the member is referring to what was formerly the Winnipeg Development Agreement that is now the Urban Development Agreement. A memorandum of understanding was signed in January. That is a tripartite agreement, and it is a commitment of $75 million over five years. Each jurisdiction will contribute $25 million, and each jurisdiction will work together to identify Urban Development priorities.

Mr. Reimer: Has there been any type of classi- fication as to which programs or which areas that the Province would be more inclined to be directing their $25 million toward? Ms. Wowchuk: The Province is interested in all aspects of the agreement. The MOU focusses on four major areas, and those are opportunities for Abori- ginal participation, sustainable community economic development, downtown renewal, and technology and innovation. Mr. Reimer: Would that be the Province's four priorities or the total programs for priorities? Ms. Wowchuk: Those are the priorities that all three partners agreed on. Mr.

Reimer: Under those four components, is the Province also subdividing those into the priorities that they want to initiate, or where they would put emphasis on in regard to their portion of funding? Ms. Wowchuk: As I said, Mr. Chairman, the three partners agreed on the four major areas. It is our intent that, as we move forward, we will negotiate on what the priorities will be. In other agreements I believe you have seen where one partner may go off in a different direction. It is our intent to work jointly and have all partners agree to the priorities that we should work on. Mr.

Reimer: The minister mentioned that there had been an understanding of agreement signed. Has there been any indication as to when the final document might be signed, or when the agreement will come into effect, or when it will be finalized, the announcement? Ms. Wowchuk: Staff at the three levels of government has worked very hard and they have come to an MOU and they are working to get an agreement finalized. I hope that that can happen in the near future. Mr.

Reimer: I want to point out that, I guess, the agreement was first signed, as is indicated here, on December 1 of 2003, and the indication is that it should be soon, the final. Ms. Wowchuk: When the MOU was signed, the City of Winnipeg still had to go through their budget process and that all takes time. As those details get finalized, I hope that we can move forward with signing this agreement very soon. Mr. Reimer: I noticed in the explanatory note in regard to the Urban Development Agreement that there is a reference to the barriers faced by the Aboriginal community.

It would seem that that seems to be the theme throughout the whole agreement. Is this part of the background in regard to looking at the program in regard to the $75 million? I will just read the one line, "Each component program can respond to the barriers faced by Winnipeg's Aboriginal community." What I am asking is do all components have to have an Aboriginal perspective in regard to the programs that might come down through the various government levels. Ms. Wowchuk: No, Mr. Chairman, but, clearly, it is a priority. We know that th ere is a large Aboriginal population in Winnipeg.

We know that there are many, many challenges, but I would read to the member the approach on this agreement. * (16:20) It is: "Canada, Manitoba and Winnipeg recog- nize that renewing the urban social, economic and physical infrastructure requires the collective efforts of all three partners, as well as community organizations and the private sector, where appropriate. "Canada, Manitoba and Winnipeg agree that a new Urban Development Agreement should build on existing policy and programs and reflect the following basic principles: equal partnership and

May 18, 2004 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2363 equal funding contributions, joint planning and program development, accountability to the citizens for public money and transparencies in expenditures, enhancing collaboration and co-operation and an adequate term to facilitate planning and program implementations." Further down, it says: "The challenges facing Aboriginal people in Winnipeg and the tremendous opportunities to promote and enhance Aboriginal participation in the economy within the tripart initiative." So we all recognize, all three partners recognize that there are tremendous op portunities available to us by working with our Aboriginal communities and addressing many of their challenges.

To the member's question, no, it is not essential. Mr. Reimer: I only mention that, and the minister has clarified it fairly clearly in the objectives of the program and the recognition of the components in Winnipeg and that. It was just that it seemed to show in the books that it may have been a component that had to be included in the evaluation of programs. So that is the only reason for the questioning. I was wanting to ask about the Neighbourhoods Alive! program and some of the programs that may have come about through that.

Maybe the minister could just give me some background as to some of the programs that have been funded through that Neighbourhoods Alive! initiative, please. Ms. Wowchuk: Neighbourhoods Alive! was announced in June of 2000, and certainly since that time there have been a variety of neighbourhoods that have been targeted. We have targeted Brandon city central, Thompson, five Winnipeg neighbour- hoods, including West Broadway, Spence, William Whyte, Lord Selkirk and Point Douglas.

I have to say that last summer I had the opportunity to visit some of the sites where work was being done through Neighbourhoods Alive! and meet with some of the groups that were involved in it and certainly I was quite impressed with the activity and the changes that I had seen in communities. The components that make up Neighbourhoods Alive! are the Neighbourhoods Renewal Fund, there is also a Neighbourhood Development Assistance program and Community Initiatives.

The goal is to improve the quality of neighbour- hoods and really help address some of the community-based social and economic challenges that are in those communities. Mr. Reimer: The minister– Ms. Wowchuk: If I could, there is also a Training Initiatives to it, as of March 31 there were 296 Neighbourhoods Alive! projects that had been approved to date under the department for a total of $12.5 million.

They include 238 Neighbourhood Renewal Fund projects totalling $6.2 million, 16 Training Initiative projects totalling $2.5 million, 36 Community Initiatives projects for a total of 2.3 million and a variety of programs under the Neighbourhoods Alive! project that have been, I believe, quite important and beneficial to the communities that they have been established in. Mr. Reimer: Yes, and I am certainly not critical of the program, because I believe it was a continuation of something that the previous, previous government had but under a different name. At that time I think it was called Take Back the Night.

I think that is what it was called. It may have eluded some of the members. I know the minister is getting briefed on the wonderful program that we had. I will just say that the numbers that the member was mentioning in regard to the projects, I believe those numbers were also the leverage of the total amount of money that was spent on those various programs. I do not believe the minister was referring to that. It was the total amount of money that this government has spent on those programs.

If I am correct that that was the leverage, the monies that were put in by the government leveraged that kind of private investment on those projects. Is that correct? Ms. Wowchuk: No, that is not accurate. The money that I put onto the record is the amount of money that flows through the life of the program, but that is all provincial money. That is not money that is leveraged. With regard to the program that the member talked about, I think he called it Take Back the Night. I think his government might have announced that program, but they never really implemented it.

2364 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 18, 2004 Mr. Reimer: Well, we will not get into a political debate on this. The amount that the member mentioned, then, has been the total amount that has been spent since the inception of the program. Is that right? Ms. Wowchuk: That is the amount that has been spent on those particular programs since the inception of the program. That is all provincial money. Mr. Reimer: Then, I guess, I will carry on on that. Is there any analysis of the kick-start, if you want to call it, of private investment, because I know some of those were joint ventures of expenditures with the private sector f

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-2-40
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 2nd hansardpdf 40.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	0fdd08f0b650174b3262e1a2e527755222fef126

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