... VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: NO. 23 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. WEDNESDAY, JUNE 16, 1982

June 16, 1982 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Tap e No. 1341 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, I table in the House, , this is what I am doing- this statement , but the only substance of the statement is I am tabling in the House notes relating to a press conference held this morning which contain appended to them, ann will be of interest, I know, to hon. members, the telex forwarded to me by the hon.

Mark Lalonde in connection with the delay of the power corridor legislation, my response to him that went out yesterday and 1 also of interest to hon. members 1 a letter that has been referred to from time to time in the debates of the House-and I am not sure the House has had a copy of it - a letter of October 27th, 1981, from me to the hon. Yves Duhaime and his response to me as of November 18th. There are copies for hon. members as well. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: to that?

How does the Opposition react Do we get half ·the time that the hon. gentleman had outside the House this morning, Mr. Speaker? Is that the way it works? The hon. gentleman tabled quite a comprehensive document so how do we manage to get half of that time, Mr. Speaker? I need some guidance from Your Honour. ~. MARSHALL: !I.N HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: Is you "'" ·nt to renct to it, react. His time is u~. Order, please! It is the understanding of the 2847

June 16, 1982 Tape No . J3 4l MR . SPE.JU{ER (Ru ssell) : Chair that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) ,or the gentleman opposite,have half the time of the hon . minis tnr in replying to f.linisterial Statements. And I think that is the general rule that has been followed . SD - 2 MR . NEARY : The hon . Leader of the Opposit ion . Do you mean that I just have half the time that the hon . gentleman just took? t1r. Speaker, I think probably the best thing for me to do is to react outside the House . The hon . gentlema~ made the statements outside the l~use which were outrageous . So, t-1r .

Speaker , I will have to prepare a statement to the press reacting to the hon . gentleman . That is about all I can do . But I think it is very unfair to table a document of that magnitude, Mr . Speaker, without giving us a chance to respond to it . 2e~a

June 16, 1982 MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) MR. HISCOCK: Tape 1342 NM - l ORAL QUESTIONS: Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Eagle River. My question is to the President of the Council, It i .c: with regard to the economic situation of the Province, particularly among our younger people who are now out of trade school, university, and will soon be getting out of high school, Does the Province have any programme to supplement the Young Canada Works Projects to employ our young people for the Summer? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. Mr.

Speaker, what we are doing, what this government is doing and is continuing to do,and not only with respect to the young people but with all jobs, we are very concerned about the economic situation with which the Province is confronted, as I know the hon. gentleman there is. And we are doing everything possible within our resources to foster development in this Province, and that is the answer to his question really. MR. HISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the hon. member for With regard to the unemployment situation, which is even more critical among our younger people from the ages of fifteen to thirty, we have a 34 per cent increase in university attendance in the third term. The main reason for this, or course, is students know that they would not find jobs. Now it is going to be even harder. Could the President of the Council inform us whether the government is going to increase come September the $25 per week for students going to trade schools, particularly now that they are living 2849

June 16, 1982 Tape 1342 NM - 2 MR. HISCOCK : awav Frn~ horne, boarding ,where the rent is often as high as $40 to $50 a week? Is this $25 going to be increased in September to keep up with the cost of living? 1·1R. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the President of the Council . MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I am advised e1at for provincial students that we have replaced that programme so that they can take more effective advantage of the Canada Student Loan Programme . MR. HISCOCK: ?-lR. SPEAKER: Eaqle River. MR. HISCOCK : A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . A supplementary, the hon. member for Mr.

Speaker, I was not referrinq to the Canada Student Loans, we ar e luclty that we do hdve Canada Student Loans I was looking at the provincial part of the trade school, not Canada Manpower the $25 per week, and a maio~ity of the people, unless they have seats under Canada Manpower, cannot qo to trade school or Pisheries College on $25 a week. The question I would like n01-1 to ask the President of the Council and that is university fees are continuing going un and ~>~ill qo up aryain this Summer . Does the government have any plan to 2850

June 16,1982 Tape No. 1343 ah-1 MR. HISCOCK: increase student bursaries,not loans but student bursaries 1 to the university students as well as to the trade school and technology students in this Provincei MR.MARSHALL: MR.SPEAKER (Russell): MR.MARSHALL: Mr. f.peaker. The hon. President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman has been absent for a while, but that question has been adequately and fully answered in the Budget and I know that the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) would be quite happy to respond to it.

But in response to his general question,obviously the government is very, very concerned about not just the situation of employment with younger people but with all segments of society and we are trying to do everythinq we possibly can to do it. One of the major problems,as the hon. gentleman will realize,has been the very high interest rates that are being charged nowadays, the rate of inflation, the general cutback in business nationally and internationally, and these are all situations that are beyond the control of this government.

Rut what we have done in that Buc.set, 11·1hich is a Budget - the hon. gentleman vras not here for a \'!hile but if he had been here he would realize that th .10 -qunaet was greeted with general acclaim by most of the oo~ulace of this Province in that we were able , the only province in Eastern Canada that was able to bring in a balanced Budget on current account and in that Budget we were balancing things and balancing off the individual interests and the social interests. We strove as much as we could to provide for students in all segments of the society.

Go if the hon. gentleman wants something specific,as I say , it was in the Budget.And I think my colleague.the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins),would be much better versed to respond to any specific questions he has. 2851

June 16,1982 MR.HISCOCK : MR.SPEAKER (Russell): MR. HISCOCK : Tape No. 1343 ah-2 A final supplementary, Mr .Speaker . The hon. member for Eaqle River . With regard to th0 oeople that are qoing t:o be employed by this government this year in the various departments and in the Confederation Duildinq can the President of the council assure the youth of our Province that they will have a fair chance at these jobs and that these peoole ~tnll not be ap!'"lointcd through political patronage? SO!-IE liON. MEfl'illERS : MR . SPEAKER: ~1R .MARSHALL: Hear, hear! The hon . President of the Council .

I do not know realty whether that type of question deserves an answer, t-1r. Speaker .Ni th respect to those jobs,we provide these jobs in as 2~12

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1344 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: fair a distribution as we possibly can considering all of these circumstances as we do in all of ouv dealings with matters of this nature. And the hon. gentleman can make insinuations all he wants. The fact of the matter is the hon. gentleman has not got a monopoly over concern for their plight. DR. COLLINS: Ask him if Mr. Trudeau will be hearing of their plights. MR. MARSHALL: My colleague says to me, my colleague who has a much sharper tongue than I ever had, says to me that perhaps Mr. Trudeau could give the hon. gentleman some advice in these matters.

But, you know, the fact of the matter is the hon. gentleman has no monopoly of concern over these matters. We are extremely concerned with these matters. We are trying to grapple with them as we are trying to grapple with the financial sit­ uation, despite our meager resources, and whatever we do our programmes that we have will be administered as fairly and equitably as they possibly can. MR. SPEAKER(Russell) : Maybe before I recognize the hon. member for Fogo (Mr.

Tulk) , I would like to particularly and especially welcome to the galleries forty-seven members from Yesterdsy's Youth Senior Citizens Club at St.Mary's, in the district of St. Mary's-The Capes. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, yesterday in the absence of the Minister of the Environment(Mr. Andrews) I asked a question to the President of the Council{Mr. Marshall) , and it concerned spraying that is going on around Red Indian Lake in the vicinity of Millertown. And I asked the minister certain questions on that.

But I would like for the Minister of the Environment perhaps to 2853

June 16 . 1982 Tape 1344 PK - 2 Z.1R . TULK : explain to the House just what herbicide 2, 4, Dis? MR. MARSHALL: MR . TULK: it . MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Z.lR . ANDREWS: Hair spray . Hair spray, is it? You need The hon . ~tinister of Environmen t. Mr. Speaker, there is one false assurnption;there is no spray going on at ~his point in t)~P at all. There may not even be a spray programme with 2,4,0 this Fall at all. The situation is this. that we were approached and an applicati on filed on March 9 by Abitibi ­ Price that they wanted to spray 2,4,D.The trade name of the chemical is Este~on 600 .

The active ingredient is 2,4,0 at a rate of forty-eight ounces per acre on 100 hecta~es in the area of Hungry Hill near Lake Ambrose, approximately thirteen kilometers south of Millertown . They did file with us,and if the member is interested in all of the details I have the m here for him ,becaus e I thought he mig ht be interested in them today. The product ~at is being used is dioxin free, that is, less than one part dioxin per 100 million parts . And this has been certified with Agriculture Canada. ?. ~ 5 11

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1345 MJ - l MR. H. ANDREWS : The application was referred to the first Pesticides Advisory Board meeting for 1982 held on April 30, 1982. MR. TULK: By the minister? (inaudible) . MR. ANDREWS: The Pesticides Advisory Board noted non-target monitoring ·~as identifi~d as ~eing deficient, identified water, soil and air sampling as necessary,and that wildlife monitoring was to be undertaken. The guidelines for this were drawn up by wildlife. To make a long story short, Mr.

Speaker, and I will gladly give all this information to the member, is that we are still awaiting a reply from Abitibi-Price on the conditions of the monitoring programme that we have set down for soil, for wildlife, for spray drift, for water and many, many other factors, the affects on the actual vegetation itself and the affects on other parts of the environment. Until they meet our approval and are willing to monitor the -way we want them to monitor and pay for the costs of that monitoring,which is by engaging independent groups, the permit to spray will not be granted. MR. 13. TULK: MR.

SPEAKER_j_Russ~ll L MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the information that the minister is giving me but that is not the question that I asked. I asked the minister to explain to the House just what 2,4,D is. I would like to ask him now, perhaps when he gets up again, to explain exactly what 2,4,D is and perhaps tell us if one of the components of ~gent Orange, that dreaded chemical that so many of us dread, if one of t~1P- com- :onents of :\gent Orange is indeed ?..A,n. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister of Environment. MR. ANDREWS: I am not a chemist, Mr.

Speaker, 2815

June 16, 1982 Tape No . 1345 MJ - 2 MR . H. ANDREWS : but with my little knowledge about it, Agent Orange as you know was a code name used for an operation . The active inqredient in ~gent Orange was 2,4,5,T , \llhich is not used in this Province or in this country . SOME HON. MEf-lBERS : !lear, hear! MR . B. TULK : t·1r. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon . the member for Foqo . r-1R . TULK: ------ Mr.

Speaker, T would like aqain to ask the minister if indeed he can tell us exactly what 2,4,0 is and if in(leoa 2,4,0 WDS the medium used in Aqent Oranqe, the medium of delivery? i\nc1 if there is <my danqer to humi:ln health? or is there any other component in 2,4,D that is oerhaos danoerous to human health? ~~R. SPEAKER : The hon . the Minister of Environment . -----HR . ANDREtvS : Mr . Speaker, this chemical that is being used here is free of dioxin,whi.ch is the concern of rn()St t>eop.le \-lhcn you talk of 2,4,0 and other such insecticides and pesticides . MR . NEARY : Anti ht:rbicides. ----MR .

ANDRE~~S : 1\nd herbicides . This product has been passed by our ?f'l~r . I

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1346 IB-1 MR. ANDREWS : Provincial Pesticide Advisory Board, also by Environment Canada, by Agriculture Canada and also all groups. It is a very common chemical used throughout Western Europe and throughout North America and many other parts of the world. MR. NEARY: Is it banned anywhere :i.n Canada? MR. ANDREWS: As far as I know 2,4,0 is not banned anywhere in Canada, no, Sir. The limitinq or the dangerous part of 2,4,D 1f it does contain dioxin is the concern of people. This particular product has less than one part per 100 million.

So this is deemed quite acceptable by agencies in Canada and other countries of the world. HR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. -------MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : A supplementary, the hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, it seems that the minister is indeed not sure whether there are dangerous taxies in that chemical. MR. ANDREWS: I am sure there are not. MR. TULK: Well,why did you not say so a minute ago? But I would like to ask the minister if indeed he has received any complaints from either community organizations or residents of Millertown and how he intends dealing with those complaints.

Is he going to ignore them or is he going out and set up some sort of public hearings? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, to date I have not received any correspondence or complaints from the people of Millertown. I would certainly be willing to meet with them if they wish a meeting as such and provide them with all the information that we have. Once again (~57

June 16, 1992 Tape No. 1346 IB -2 ~1R . ANDREioJS : I would like to emphasize that permission to spray this small lot of n~~roximately 100 acres, the permission has not - tha ·t is, they will be spraying less than 100 hectares, probably more like 100 acres, within this defined lot here. But permission has not been yet given and it is possible that it may not be given . I would like to also say, ~tr. Speaker, that we will have very strict controls on this type of thing in the future as we are having now. This is a new concept in forest management .

It is called, in Lhc forestry's tcrminolo~y, conirur release, which lets the conifers get a better head start in the forests, and hopefully.down the road in the life of the tree,the tree will grow faster and there will be more fibre per acre on an acre of woodland. It al l so unds very good in principle . There are a lot of fears amongst a lot of people, in particular wildlife officials , that this type of a programme could damage habitat for animals.

For instance,if you did arrive after twenty or thirty years with a stand of solid black spruce and nothing underneath it,your small game rabbiL population would possibly be affected, your moose population, this type of thing . Now I am not an expert on that but these are some of the fears . This programme is much more ~~tensive in New Brunswick,where the New Brunswick government have given , 1 think it is the Irving Group, permission to spray a considerable amount of more 28SB

June 16, 1982, Tape 1347, Page 1 -- apb MR. ANDREWS: land over the past couple of years. And for further background information, Abitibi-Price did come to us last year with a proposal for a considerably larger acreage to be sprayed. We requested that they go back and go through the environmental assessment programme for that, and they withdrew their application at that time. Any further applications for large spray programmes would go through the environmental assessment route . MR. TULK: MR. SPEAKER(Russell): the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. Mr.

Speaker, the minister touched on two very interesting components of this whole programme, and that is I would like for him to tell us if he investigated any other ways of reducing the hardwood growth so that the softwoods would grow, and has he investigated what the effect indeed will be, or will he investigate what the effect will be, on the wildlife before he grants a ~ermit to s9ray? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Well, Mr. Speaker, this is the whole purpose of such a small-scale programme, to find out that information.

And we cannot find out that information until we do a small-scale spray programme. I would not eliminate t!.1e ~ossibili ty, or eliminate the thought of not doing it at all, because I do not think we can live in ignorance if there is a possibility that we could improve forest growth in Newfoundland. On the other hand, we have to be very careful about the side effects of such a programme. And this is what we will indeed be looking at and we have ordered the company to have an independent 2B59

June 16, 1982, Tape 1347, Page 2 --apb MR. ANDREWS : monitoring programme, set up at their own expense, suitable for our department. MR. TULK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Russell): A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Fogo. MR.

TULK: Under the Environmental Assessment Act,! understand that the minister can either say, 'Yes, go ahead and spray', he does not have to go through all the procedures of public hearings and so on, but in this kind of situation, where there seems to be a great deal of uncertainty about whether in fact this herbicide spraying should go ahead, let me ask the minister a question : Will he, before he even allows this small experiment to go on, indeed see that public hearings are set up and that advisory boards to the minister have adequate access to the public and that the public will have adequate access to the advisory board and therefore to the minister?

Will he ensure the House that that will be the case? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, the Environment Act is being followed, and the proper processes are happening here. We do not see, and we certainly did not envisage when the act was put in place, that everything that happened in the Province would have to go through a full environmental assessment statement. As I indicated, the proposal by Abitibi-Price, last year, would have called for that because it was on a much larger scale, 2860

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1348 SD - 1 MR. ANDREWS : on a scale of 4,000 or 5,000 acres. We sec this as il v0ry small test of Qllout 100 acres. we are quite anxious to find the affects of it, and I do not see that it warrants a full environmental assessment statement on it right now. But I ~ill say, as I have said to the press already a couple of weeks ago , that if there are applications for major prolects similar to this, they will have to go through the full asignment, yes. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, spraying anywhere in the Newfoundland forest at any time frightens people. The hon. gentleman just made a statement there, I wonder if he could elaborate on it in connection with the , monitoring proccRs. Did I understand the hon. gentleman correctly that he said that Abitibi-Price are being asked to employ independent firms to monitor the spray ?rogramme? If so, who will they re7ort to? Why does not the minister himself undertake to hire these consulting firms and send the bill to Abitibi-Price? We are all in favour of Abitibi-Price paying the bill,but who will they report to?

Will they report to the minister's department or report to the company? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ANDREWS : The hon. Minister of the Environment. They will report to us, Mr. Speaker. We set the guidelines for the monitoring. As a matter of fact, some of the monitoring will be done by our own people because we have some equipment in place in Central Newfoundland that would be suitable for this. We will also accept or reject the people or the companies, the firms, that they might propose to do the monitoring or some of the monitoring. But we have a control over it. We set the guidelines and we can accept it or reject it.

MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 2861

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1348 so -2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the hon. gentleman tell the House if he knows what the moo~e or wildlife population is in that particular area where the spraying ls proposed? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of the Environment. MR.

ANDREWS : No, Mr. s·~eaker. 'l'h3t is, once again, part of the monitoring programme that will have to be put in place, an inventory of all game in the area before, during and after the spray proqr.amme. 'L'he same with \vater sampling -before, durin~r <ancl -.1 i:cr·; the same with soil sampling and ·the like. 'I' hat, generally speaking, is the type of monitoring that \ve \llant put in place and that will be done and those questions wilJ. be answered. MR. NEARY: But it is too late after you spray to find out what the moose ~o~ulation is. :iR. TULK: Supplementary, ~tr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Supplementary, the bon. member for Pogo. MH. NEARY: Did T undl'rstand t·he minislcr· to say ~~at he is going to monitor the situation by counting the lvildlife th~re? Now let me ask him a question. If indeed 28~2

June 16, 1982 Tape 1349 NM - 1 MR. TULK: he finds that that is one of the heaviest populated areas of wildlife in this Province, will we cancel that proqramme, will he disallow the permit, or will he indeed allow that wildlife to be used as guinea pigs? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Environment . MR. ANDREWS : very hypothetical situations. MR. TULK: MR. ANDREWS : The hon. Minister of the Mr. Speaker, these are all No, they are not. I am sure if 500 moose are found on that 100 acres of land,I am sure that I would have a lot to say about that too.

The name of this game is not to live in constant ignorance of what might ha~pen, but to use the tools of science for the best benefit of an industry, in this case the pulp and paper industry, and the loggers of Newfoundland. We want to find out if this chemcial can be effective, can increase our wood production in Newfoundland without destroying the environment. If it can do that, fine. If it cannot do that we will ~ave to look somewhere else, MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 'rhe hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, would the hon. gentleman tell the House if he has any information to indicate that good woods management might do the same thing as the chemical? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that this type of programme might be, might be,an adjunct to good woods management. We do not know but we certainly want to find out. I do not want to live in ignoranc~. We are 9utting in through the Department of Lands and Forests, and twisting the 2863

June 16, 1982 Tape 1349 NM - 2 MR. ANDREWS : arms of the paper companies who are using our forests, a good woods management regime. This might help but it may not. It is an experiment. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the minister says he does not want to live in ignorance of what that herbicide will do,and I agree with him. But let me ask him this question presumably the purpose of the spray is to eliminate the over- qrowth of h<Jrdwoocls over soft,mods <Jnd tiH;n•fon~ qiv<~ us a better production in softwoods.

Let me ilSk him a question: Can he not ask Abitibi-Price to move to some other area, surely there are other areas where that is happening, can he ask Abitibi-Price to move to some other area and do their spraying in an area that is less densely populated with wildlife? Why not? It makes a lot of sense. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS : Well,unless the hon. member has information that I do not have at my finqertips,I would not assume that that area had any more or any greater moose population than any other. MR. NEARY : 1f vou do not know you should find out 'Jf'fore you SJ'ray . MR.

ANDREWS: If you could give me the statistics on that I would certainly take it under consi~eration - if you can prove that there are more moose there than anywhere else• But that in itself may not be the factor that concerns us here. There are many factors that concern us here; one ·of the factors is to find out what the effect of such a spray programme would be on moose. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. 2 8 5 !1

June 16, 1982 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Tape 1349 NM - 3 A final supplementary, the hon . Another question about this year's spray programme and that is the spraying for the spruce bud­ worm that is qoing on in the Glenwood-Gander area. I under­ stand from today's 2865

June 16,1982 Tape No. 1350 ah-1 NR. TULK: papers,and perhaps from some telephone calls,that there are some concerned people in Glenwood about this spray programme and in their water supply. They are looking for a meeting with the minister. Could I ask him if indeed he would allow public input into that programme this year before he grants a permit to the Department of Forestry to spray, and if ·that will be through public hearings or just him going out sitting down and talking ~o the people? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of the Environment. MR. ANDREWS: Mr.

Speaker., there was a lot of public input into this spray programme. Just a couple of years ago there was a Royal Commission and forestry presented a major brief. As a matter of fact,I presented a brief myself to that commission about the concerns in my own area down in Bay d'Espoir on the spruce budworm. We have,in the area that the hon. member refers to ,a controlled block that we have been monitoring since 1977.

If you know what a controlled block is,this is a block of land that we want sprayed every year,whether there is a spray programme in place or not,and probably to continue a couple of years after the spruce budworm spray programme is over­ and hopefully that will be over this yeilr. I have sent a telegram to the mayor of the town of Glenwood in response to the telegram that he sent me and,if the !louse would be interested,! think this will c~arify the situation as I see it.

The telegram reads as follows:''Re: your telegram ,June 11,1982, please be advised that the spraying of Block 110 Careless Cove,is an important component of my department's ')r~"

June 16,1982 Tape No . 1350 ah-2 MR .ANDREWS: env ironment al monitoring study on the impact or the spruce bud\-Jorm spray programme on non-tar get organisms . The studies have been conducted in the same location since 1977 . Continuity is extremely important in lonq-term monitor in g studies and movement of the site at this time \·/Ould result in the loss of five years of valuable data . The purpose of these studies is to determine if the spray programme causes any negative env ironmental impacts .

This env ironmental monitoring programm e i s therefore in the interest of the residents of Glenwood ,and indeed the res idents of Newfoundland in general . To date effects on non-target orga nisms have been minor . A no-chemical buffer zone of 1.5 kilometers around places of human habitation is considered effic ient to minimize th e risk of expo sin g people to the chemical spray. Block 110 has been selected to give a larger no-chemical buf fer zone to alleviate concerns of the people of Glen wood . A no-chemical buffer zone of 1.5 kil ometers is to be maintained around all community water supplies .

Results of water analysis for Gander Lake under the same 2A~7

June 16, 1982 Tape 1351 PK - 1 MR. ANDREWS: spray regime in previous years indicated that concentratlons of mataci~ were normally below detectable level and, when tietected,were well below allowable daily limits set down in the Canadian Drinking Water Standards. Please be assured the health of the Glenwood residents will not be endangered by the spray progamme at Careless Cove." SOME !-ION. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Leader n r-. '· the Opposition . MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, we understand that the type of aircraft tht will be used in this year's spruce budworm spray programme is different than the ones used in previous years. And we understand that these aircraft will load on the highways or on the roads somewhere. Now does that mean that matacil will be stored along the - I am not sure if it is woods roads or the Tran5-Canada Highway I heard these aircraft are going to land on, these small aircraft? AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. MR. NEARY: Would the hon. gentleman elaborate on that? \vhat kind of aircraft? Where will the matacil be stored? How will it be brought to the aircraft?

Will it be brought in tankers or will it be in storage tanks along the roads where it is going to be loaded on the aircraft? Can the hon. gentleman give us some information on that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Environment. MR. ANDREWS: As the hon. member probably knows this year the spray programme will be done with smaller aircraft than was used before, aircraft which we consider to be more effective. They will be able to zero in on the target areas more efficiently and have,~enerally speaking, better aim. And because they are smaller aircraft,they have a limited range.

Because they have a limited range,we will 28SA

June 16 , 1982 Tape 1351 PI< - 2 MR . ANDRE~-IS : be using more than the two airports that were used,or proposed to be used last year, that was Gander and Stephen ville . For instance ,the airstrip in Bay d'Espoir is now being prepared, or should already be prepared,to handle the matacil and the dikes will be put in place and so on. There is a little airstrip , I think, near Springdale which will be used . The dikes are being put there . As a matter of fact in that ~869

June 16 , 1 98 2, Tape 1352, Page 1 -- apb loffi . ANDREWS : particular situat ion the soil is so porous we are hard-packing the soil and then we are lining it with heavy plastic liners . so we are doing everything possible to ensure that no matacil is spilled accidently at the site . I are not aware of any plan s to have these aeroplanes landing on highways or roads to load up. HR . TULK : A supplementary, Mr . Spea ker . MR . SPEAKER(Russell) : A supplementary, the ho n. the member ~or Fogo . MR . TULK : Mr.

Speaker , one of the recommendations of the royal commission was - the first part of the royal commission - that in carrying out spray programmes contingency plans be developed by the Department of Forestry and that they be submitted to the Department of the Environment for approval . I would like tc ask the minister if he has asked the t-ti:~ister of Forest Resources .:~nd Lands (Nr . Power) this year for a new contingency plan in the case of accident , spill ,or whatever , with rnatacil. MR . SPEAKER : The hon . the Minister of the Environment . MR . ANDREIVS : Mr .

Speaker, we have bee n working very closely with the Department of Forest Resources and Lands since last year . There will be some changes in procedure, although we were very, very pleased, in general, with the spr.:~y programme lust year, despite the fact that one plane did have to jettison its matacil through technical - a fire on board and so on . But generally speaking, 1.,e were quite pleased . There was very little leakage around the areas where the matacil was handled, if any at all . ?.870

June 16, 1982, Tape 1352, Page 2 -- apb MR . ANDREWS : There 1.,.as some leakage when that plane returned that time from the jett ison site, some small leakage on the runway. I am very happy that we have a plan in act ion for any foreseeable disaster that might occur, unl ess another plane crashes. MR . TULK : Mr . Speaker, a supplementary. MR . SPEAKER(Russell) : the member for Fogo . MR . TULK : A supplementary, the hon .

Could I ask the minsiter if indeed - one of the problems, as the minister is aware of, is that last year in that spill, that jettisoned load that aircraft was forced to drop , there was a great deal of uncertainty as to where the load actually was dropped , and there is some uncertainty as to wh ether that load wen t into the Gander water supply rather than in the areu that the minister said. I would like to ask him 2871

June 16, 1982 1'aJ:>c No . .1351 TB -1 MR . 'l'ULK: if he has ~cquircu Lhat in tha t continyency JJlan that Lhc.ce be .;~ qr-e.:.t dea l rno r-e certainty, that there be tech:1ology brou~hl j n to cnSIJre that we arc sure where a load will be dropped if iL has to be dropped? MR . SPEJ\KER (IWSSELL): 'l'he hon . Ni.ni.sL~r of the Environment . MR . ANDREWS : Mr . Speaker , yes . T would like to reassur~ the member ror I'O<JO, ontl or1~c at.Jain the citi?.cns of Gander-,that no mntacil wus dropped in Gander Lake last year . Cer-tainly Wl' could not detect it and \ve have ver-y preolse instruments fo r· mensurlntJ .

We have set in place some minor- chanqes . /\nd I think things such as \ve have asked the Departmenl of Forestry to do in locatin(J - if the hon . member \voulcl b0. interested - in locatinq a s~te , for instance , similar to that iettison of last year, these planes will be equipped . Some have a marker, an orange red flil'J markcr,<lncl hopefully we can have a little radio <levicc on i.t th.:1L lws Lobe jettisoned at the sarne time to pin point the .:~rea .:as closely as po ssible, so that when the plnnes come b~~k over it they \.fill be ublc to find it . t>U:L SPEAKER : Order , plcuS(.• !

The time for th•cstion 1'0-riocl has expired . ANS I•IERS '1'0 QU E:S'r10NS FOR Wll fCII NO'rl'<.:l·: 11/\S 13EEN G IVJ•:_JI}__ MR . SPE1\KER : The hon. Minister of Public \tlorks anu Sc.:rv i ccs . I>!R . YOUNG : ~1r . Sn<•ilkcr, f would like• Lo table unswers to the questions on the On.lcr Paper of Nay 13th . asked by the hon . mc~ml.>cr for I~<!IJl< ! niv 1:r (~\r. J'jscock) .rrd Hay 17th . IJn fortun.:1 Lcly he was not here Lo •ret the ? R7~

June 16, 1982 'I' ape No. 1353 IB -2 MR. YOUNG : information when the estimates were being done . May 17th . again, question no . 78 . Question no . 90, May 26th. and May 31st . A bit of reading for him while he is back from holidays . MR . SPE~KER (RUSSELL): The hon. Mi nister of Development . MR . WINDSOR : Mr . Speaker, could I have leave to revert to Prese ntin g Reports to table two reports . MR . SPEAKER : Is it agreed? SOME HON. t-1.EMI3ERS : Agreed . MR . SPEAKER: Agreed . PRESENTING .REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR . WINDSOR: Two reports , Mr .

Speaker , the annual report of the !Iarmon corporation and the annual report of the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corp oration. MR. SPEAKER : Are there any other ans we rs to questions for which notice has been giv en? f.\R . SPEAKER : MR. LUS H: PRESENTING PETITIONS The hon. member for Terra Nova . Mr. Speaker, I present a petition on behalf of some approximately 300 residents of St. Brendan 's, the island of St . Brendan 's i n Bonavista Bay in the Terra Nova district . The petition , t-tr .

Speaker, is requesting the government to look into and correct the inadequate health services on the island , the health services admi n~stered to the people of St . Brendan 's, an island, Sir , of some 500 people ten miles from the mainland of the Province , ten ~les from the terminal point of Burnside on the 2873

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1354 MJ - 1 MR. T. LUSH: Eastport peninsula. l\lr. Speaker, to give hon. members the g~st of the petition, the prayer of the petition 1 will read directly from it, ;ays: "We t6e undersigned, the people of St. Brendan'E. 3onavista Bay, Newfoundland, do hereby request that steps be taken immediately to insure better and more consistent health services to the people of At. Brendan's by appointing a full-time resident nurse.

At present the island is visited once every two weeks by a doctor from Eastport, lienee, for the other remaining fourteen days,the island is complet~ly without professional health services. This in our view is a dreadful state of affairs . To ensure more efficient health services to the people of St. Brendan's,we therefore petition the government to appoint a full-time resident nurse immediately. And your petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray." Mr.

Speaker, a simple request; I do not expect that too many people in Newfoundland are required to make such a simple and reasonable re~uest, simply to have a full-time nurs~ on the island to ensure better health services. At the time of the arrival of this petition on my dcsk,it was six weeks since the people of St. Brendan's had seen a doctor.

Even though the doctor is required to visit,or there is an understanding - I do not know whether it is a requiremnet - but there is an understanding that the doctor visits every two weeks, of course when we get bad weather the doctor does not visiLSo at that particular time, at the arrival of the petition, it was six weeks since the people had a visit from a doctor on that island. So, Mr. Speaker, this indeed is not the kind of health services that people would be expecting to get in 1982.

And as I said before,! think the request is reasonable, it is fair to ask for the services of il full-time resident nurse tu supplement 2 R 7 11

,Tunc 16 , 1982 'l'ape No . 1354 MJ - 2 t-m. 'I' . I.IISII: tho!>c of the by -weekly visits of the doctor r rom l·:ilstpnrt . And I miqht say that that visit is only, r think , lasts jltsl ·' hnl r dny , \~hen the doctor gets there every twn weeks it is just for n half day, just for a couple of hours. So there arc not too many neoplc in Newfoundland having that level, T nm sure, of medical o;crvices to them . so , Mr. Minister - KR. !lOUSE : llow milny people did you say were there? ~~ -l-!:!§!1..: sao pc-oplc .

So to make the point clear again . 1'hcy lwvn ,, visit from 1.1 doctor every t-v1o weeks who is there for .:lbOUt il C(IUflle OT hours and them , of course , left to chance and fortune· - and muybc misfortune . 2875

June 16, 1982 Tape No. l35S MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I certainly hope that the minister will take this petition very, very seriously and will move to see that the people of St. Brendan's are provided adequate health services, that they are treated. equally as other cornrnun i L: ics in this Province,and that certainly that they can be provided so - ] with this minimal service, Mr. Speaker, this very minimal service of being provided with a full-time nurse. l\qain when the doctor is not on the Island -he is there only one every two weeks-they have to hire the l:erry for emergencies.

Of course, emergencies arc rather relative on the island since there is nobohy L.o detL'rmine what an emergency is,and when somebody qets sick they have to hire a ferry1at a qrcat. expense to the person hiring the ferry. So, Mr. Speaker, there is every reason why the people of St. Brendan's, I believe, should be afforded the reasonable request that they arc asking here so that their children and so that all of the people, the senior citizens, all of the people on St.

Brendan's can be assured a more rcasono.ble and a more adequutc level of health service. ~;o I certainly hopl~ l::hi:! t the government will take this peLition very, very seriously and will certainly agree to dccon~odate the request of the residents to immediately have a full-time nurse resident on the island oE St. Hrendun's so th~t these people can have a level of health service in accordance with other areas of the Province. Mr. Speaker, I ~sk to have the petition placed upon th0. •rabJ c of th0 !louse and referred to the appropriate department. MR. HOUSE: MR. SPEAKim. (Hussell): of Belle Isle. Mr.

Speaker, I - 'l'he hon. member· for the Strr~il: 287S

June 16 , 1982 Tape No . 1355 SD - 2 MR . ROBERTS : Is the minister going to speak? Is the mini.~ter <.Joinq to ::;peak? Well, Mr. ~pcakcr , the minister m,:~.y possibly speak , he may possibly even say something, which will be a \'lelcomed change . SOME liON. NEMBERS: MR. HOUSE: MR . ROBERTS : Hear, hear! That is good . Yes , it is good , Mr . Speaker, \o/hich is mor e than I ca n say about the minister . MR. ROUSE : No ne of your smart - alec cracks . MR. ROBERTS : No w, Mr . Speaker, if the minister starts his smart alec remarks with me he will get better than he gives . Now , Mr .

Speaker , let me carry on - SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh , oh ! MR. ROBERTS : - if the hon . gentlemen opposite are so indisp osed . Let me say that I support this 2877

June 16, 1982 Tape 1356 Nf.l - l MR. ROBERTS : petition,as do my colleagues on this side of the House. The qentleman from Terra Nova (Mr . Lush) has outlined the case eloquently and effectively and I do not need to qo over what he said. In the c!ay and aqe in ~·hich we live. and given the type and quantity of medical services available to people el Se\\lhere throuqhout this Province, the request made by these people who live on St . Brendan's is not unreasonable. It would not be terribly costly.

It would not cost the Treasury a great deal of money . l~e can afford lots of things around this Province , I will not qo into them ,but we can afford lots of services put on the Public Treasury that a~e of far less use to anybody than would be the cosl of providing the salary of a nurse at St . Brendan 's. I suggest to the minister that we should do it . I suggest to the minister that he should take the steps necessary . I could outline for hi.m , I am sure he is probably aware, of places \vhe re med ic al services are being provided in far less demanding circumstances than those which obtain at St. Brendan's .

Th.::sc people arc isolated, on the other end of a ferry service . The ferry service can be irregular because of weather conditions . The people 's needs do not occur only when the ferry comes or when the doctor comes, the people 's needs occur whenever they occur . MR . HISCOCK: l'lR . ROBERTS: River said? MR. TrTSCOCK : they have no fee linqs. 'l'hey are cold and callous . 1 am sorry; My friend from Eaole The government is cold and callous, ?fl78

June 16, 1982 Tape 1356 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Well I am not going to disagree with my friend from Eagle River when he says the government are cold and callous. I will say that here is an opportunity for them to show that they are not cold and callous, and the way for them to show that, Sir, is for them to accede to a very reasonable and very modest request and that is to provide the nurse for these people at St. Brendan's. Sir, it ought to be done and it ought to be done riqht away. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, I just want to rise to support I guess the principle of this petition. The fact is I just want perhaps to make a comment reqardino the presentation of petitions. The members opposite, as should open-line programmes and the media,know that petitions are - we have three people to speak on petitions and ordinarily, in some cases,a minister will get up and accept the petition and make a few pertinent remarks. MR. NEARY: MR·. HOUSE: We gave you the works yesterday. The point was of course, the facts- of course,! still have my Insight magazine, I read it every day. MR.

NEARY: You only can stand and support a petition. MR. YOUNG: He was reading Ray Guy, He could not - MR. HOUSE: The fact is, Mr. Speaker, I will certainly take this petition to the department - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HOUSE: - take it to the department. The fact is of course we do not as much have district nurses now as we 2879

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1357 SD - 1 MR. HOUSE: used to have.Public Healthnurses are more in the field of preventive medicine and we try to locate them for an average of about two to 4, ODD people, I think, around the Province. And we do try to provide adequate medical service through district health offices. And, of course, I am sorry to hear t~at they were six weeks without that kind of service I will certainly look into that and look into the feasibility of having somebody there, look into that possibility.

The fact is, of course, that we have helicopter service for •Jetting people in case of emergencies and with bringing people to the island, if necessary, as well as the regular ferry. So certainly in accepting this I will certainly look into the matter. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER: MR. LUSH: Are there any other petitions? Yes, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, this petition is of a different matter but certainly again having to do with a government service. This petition, again, Mr.

Speaker, is on behalf of approximately 200 residents of the community of Cannings Cove, a beautiful community in the Terra Nova district. And these people, Mr. Speaker, are concerned about the condition nf their roads - the road connecting Cannings Cove with Musgravetown, the road leadin0 from Musgravetown through to Cannings Cove, a road, I guess we are talking about some three miles, the road leading from Musgravetown to and through the community of Cannings Cove. Mr.

Speaker, the signatures on this particular petition would represent, I would expect, maybe 80 per cent of the adult population of the community of Cannings Cove. And directly I will go to the petition and it says, Sir, 'We the undersigned, the people of Cannings Cove in the Province u[ Ncwfound1aml and Labrador, 2880

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1357 so - 2 MR. LUSH: do hereby request the provincial government to allocate funds in this fiscal year to upgrade and pave the road from Musgravetown through Cannings Cove. 2881

June 16, 1982, Tape 1358, Page 1 -- apb t-IR. LUSH: "This road receives extensive use by school children who are buseC. daily to and from uusgraveto vm , by workers 1~ho commute to work on a daily basis, by large numbers of residents who conduct their daily routine business outside of the community. ··Additionally, Canning 's Cove is rapidly becoming a busy fishing centre.

The transportation of this fish requires a good paved road. l-Ie therefore petition the provincial governmen~ to take immediate action in this matter ancl your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray." As I have said, Mr.Speaker, the petition is signed by upwards to and possibly beyond 80 per cent of the adult population of Canning's cove. And, !1r . Speaker, I think the petitioners have certainly incicated the reasons why they \¥ant their roads improved and paved. They mention the fact that children are bused over the road daily to schools in Musgravetown.

All of the high school children ilrc bused to the school in Husgravetown so these kids use t.he road daily for ten months of the year. Canning's Cove is not a commercial place, so they also do most of their shopping in Nusgravetown and Clarenville and other areas around, so the people 1·/0uld have to move out of there to do their daily routine shopping . Then, of course, a large number of people ~~uld work in areas close by, in the Terra Nova National Park and in Clarenville and other areas, so all th~ people have to move out of there to ~~ork, with the exception of the fishermen. 2982

June 16 , 1982, Tape 1358, Page 2 -- apb MR. LUSH : And the petition makes that point, that Canning 's Cove is rapidly establishing itself as a fairly productive fishing centre and over the last five years has made tremendous progress in this area . They make that point in their pc ·tition that they think they sho uld have a paved road so that the fish product ca n go to the markets in a good condition. And , Mr. Speaker , of course all hon . members are aware of the inconvenience of wallowing in dust and dirt when one is living on a gravel road .

And,again, like so many rural Newfoundland communities, Canning 's Cove •1as built along both side of a main road . And these people, with the fr ustration they go through when the dry weather approaches, the ladies cannot put clothes on the lines, they ca nnot ra is e their windows, they will all just smother and stifle in the dirt and the dust that is flying around that beautiful town . So, Mr.

Speaker, there is every reason given, economic reasons and social reasons why the people of Canning 's Cove should have their road paved , just a distance of something less than three miles, something less than three miles from the town of Musgravetown through to Canning's Cove . So , Mr . Speaker, 2883

June 16,1982 Tape No. 1359 ah-1 MR.LUSH : I hope again that the government will treat the people of Canning's Cove as equal Newfoundlanders, will give them their rights MR.NEARY: So have-not will be no more. MR.LUSH: the people of Canning's Cove 1 so that they can go about their daily work, Mr.

Speaker, without the problems that are inherent with dirt roads, without the da~qers that are inherent,and that they can be afforded a good road so that their school children can be bused to school comfortab 1" iln.-1 convcnientl y, so that the workers in Canning's Cove who 'lre workinq in othere areas of the Province can commute to work safely and economically, Mr. Speaker, and so that the fish plant can be given the opportunity to produce, to produce to its maximum,so that the place can become a viable community. So, Mr.

Speaker, I conclude by saying that I support the petition wholeheartedly and hope that the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) in rising will be able to give the people of Canning's Cove some good news by saying that there is going to be action taken this year towards treating these people as equal Newfoundlanders and qivinq them therights t~at they deserve. Thank you Mr. Speaker. And I place it upon the table of the House and have it referred to the appropriate department. MR.TULK: Some job there, some member . SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Transportation. MR.

SIMMS: Hear, hear! A good minister. MR.DAWE: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated during the estimates cornrnittees,I quess each and every member in this House of Assembly has a just reason to request road ? P. 8 1t

- - .~ June 16,1982 Tape No. 1359 ah-2 MR . DAWE : .improvements in his or her particular district,and iL .is this <JOvernment's intenti on to address itself to these very legitimate concerns and aspirations of the residents all around New foundland and Labrador . It becomes in this particular issue,as it is in other areas of social concerns ,a matter of funding being available to address itself to what are real,legitimate concerns of the people. And we are continuin q to upgrade and improve road facilities and transportation networks around the Province as fundin q becomes available . Mr .

Speaker, as soon as this Province has the opportunity of participating in this Canadian nation on an equal financial footinq with other Canadians.then we will be in a better position to address ourselves more quickly to these very legitimate concerns of the residents that the hon . member represented today, and all other residents of Ne\~foundland and Labrad or. t-1R . CALLl\N : t-lr. Speaker . MR .SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . member for Bellevue . MR .CALLAN: Mr . Speaker, I want to stand and speak in support of the petition so ably presented by my colleague from the district of Terra Nova (Mr .Lush) . Mr .

Speaker, I am quite familiar with the town of Canning 's Cove. I have driven through that community many times . I drove 2eqs

June 16, 1982 Tape 1360 PK - 1 MR. CALLAN: through it years ago when that was the only way that you could cross the Provi~ce actually, it was before the TCH was constructed through what is now the Terra Nova National Park - so I am quite familiar. And, Mr. Speaker, after all these years to know that the people in Canning's Cove-hard workers, primary producers, taxpayers, Mr. Speaker, of this Province- have to, as the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) said, wallow and smother in dust - I a·ssume they will get some calcium chloride, I assume that they will get some calcium chloride. But, of course - MR.

NEARY: They might spray 2,4,D on them. Mli. CALLAN: - as we all know, Mr. Speaker, that is just a substitute. MR. HQDnRR· Or matacil. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I can also speak from experience in my own district, where we have approximately fifty miles of unpaved or dirt roads. And I grew up on a

section of what used to be the Cabot Highway, where traffic from all across the Island had to pass through twenty feet from the house where I lived,and I know what it means to live and wallow in dust. But to have to do so, Mr. Speaker, in this day and age, in 1982,seems a little bit ridiculous. And I believe, Mr. Speaker, that government have their priorities mixed up a bit. MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. CALLAN: Last night on the television - MR. TULK: What priorities? MH.

CALLAN: - the minister was saying that one out of every $10 that is raised by the government of this Province is spent on maintaining and upgrading our roads and so on. Mr. Speaker, I understand that there are still approximately 2,000 miles of dirt road in 288S

June 16, 1982 Tape 1360 PK - 2 MR . CALLAN : the Province . MR . NEARY : A lot of that in St . Mary 's Bay too . MR. CALLAN : In St . Mary 's-The Capes, in the district of St . Mary's-The Capes I am sure that the newly elected member knows exactly how many miles there are now . He was quoted earlier as saying that there were 104, I think , or 100 miles . MR. HEARN : MR . CALLAN : One hundred and twe nty-five . But there are over 100 miles of dirt road in places like in the district of St . Mary 's­ The Capes .

And the people in the galleries , these senior citizens who have worked haru all their li ves and paid taxes all of their lives,are like the people in Canning 's Cove, t-1r . Speaker, who after working hard all of their 1i ves and paying taxes they still, in their blilight years, have to suffer with dust and dirt and lack of a decent paved road . If I can make one more compari son, Mr . Speaker , it is like the people in the town of Adeytown in my district, wh ere they paved to the last house in Deep Bight, and of course Adeytown bei ng a town of probably a pop ulation of 150 people ,mostly senior citizens, 28 87

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1361 IB-1 MR. CALLAN: place to retire1 because it is a lovely little and they also are still there wallowing and smothering in dust. Mr. Speaker, I support this petition,as I have supported many other petitions in the past when it comes to asking that government and the minister who just finished speaking,priorize. Mr. Speaker,we hear the Premier every now and then talking about the federal government doing something on the backs of Newfoundlancers, on the backs of Newfoundland. Mr.

Speaker, I cannot help thinking every time the Premier mentions that sort of an issue that here we have the same thing hap~ening in this Province where roads will be ~aved this Summer in other parts of Newfoundland and it will be done, Mr. Speaker, on the backs of the taxpayers in Canning's Cove and the half dozen or more communities located in the district of Bellevue and St. Mary's-The Capes and others. Because, ~r. Speaker, it makes a lot of sense,as the member for Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush) already said, you know, for social, economical and many other reasons,it makes a lot of sense to give these people a little bit of pavement -fresh fish that has to be trucked over these roads, buses that have to travel over these roads carrying school kids,and all the many other reasons that we can think of. And, as I said, Mr. Speaker, these people are not, if I remember them and I think I do, they are not people who are trusting to the government for welfare and handouts. They are primary producers and they are hardworking men and women. MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : Order, please!

I would like to advise the hon. member that his time is up. MR. CALLAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. They deserve an improved road and I support wholeheartedly the petition. ?.889

:i June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1361 IB-2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL) : Are there any other petitions? This now being Private Members Day we shall commence with Motion 8, the motion to be moved by the hon. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk). SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: MR. TULK: The hon. member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, I would like to start as is usually the case by reading this resolution into Hansard:

WHEREAS the fishery is the main thread of Newfoundland's social, cultural and economic fabric; and WHEREl\S both the inshore and offshore sectors of the Province's fishery are in a state of crisis; and

WHEREAS there is no coherent or cohesive policy being pursued by the present provincial government; and

WHEREAS it seems apparent that the present provincial government has neither the desire nor the ability to develop long term strategies or policies for the Province's fishery; THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this hon. House immediately set as its top priority the development of a comprehensive long term policy for the Newfoundland fishery; BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that a select committee of this House be appointed to ensure that this policy becomes reality. Mr. Speaker, the importance of this resolution to the Liberal Party I think is 2889

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1362 MJ - l MR. B. TULK: ---clearly illustrated by the fact that we have placed it behind another resolution put forward by the member from Terra Nova (Mr. T. Lush). That resolution, Mr. Speaker, of course, spoke of unemployment in this Province, and that resolution was ably presented by the member for Terra Nova. Unfortunately the government again chose to ignore it and voted against it.

We see it as an umbrella resolution and we see that under that resol~tion perhaps the greatest opportunity we have to lowet· unc"n:lloymcnt. in ti1r~ Province is t:Hou')h tl-tc clcvelcl'll11"nt of our fishery. Now, Mr. Speaker, we want to make it plain though that the group on this side, the people on this side, the caucus on this side are not talking as the Premier talks. We are not talking of solving problems perhaps on the backs of our fisherman, that is keeping low incomes - MR. R • DA'-7P.: You had better not say that . MR. TULK: Now I know it hurts the Minister of Transportation (Mr. R.

Dawe) every time you mention his friend the Premier, !Jut would he 1:>e quiet? The Premier seems bent on keeping the number of fisherman in our boats that are there, and inC',eed increasing them to any number that he sees fit. It does not concern him too rnuc:h thouqh, dncs not concc'rn him too much about the level of income of some of those fisherman. Mr. Speaker, we on this side would wish to see a stabilized income for our fisherman, an increasing income. We on this side wish to see the government invest funds to insure that we do have a prosperous fishery. Mr.

Speaker, we believe that the spin-off effect of further investment in our fishery would be tremendous. Surely one of the historical lessons, one of the lessons of history in Newfoundland is that the prosperity of Newfoundland has depended to a qreat deal on whether wo have 289Q

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1362 HJ - 2 MR_.:~.:_!ULK 3 p~osperity in the fishery . As t he fishery goe s in Newfoundland so goes the prosperity of this Province . fishery - MR . S'rAGG: ------ to the gill s . HR. ·roLK : Mr. Speaker , expansion in the What about the (inaudi ble) If the toddler now, the fellow that has been trying to get into the Cabinet for the past ten years , and he has f inal ly toddled up to be Parliamentary Assistant , if he \"ill be quiet I will get to that later . SOME NON . t'IE~1.BERS : Oh , oh l MR . SPEAKER {J\ylwar~L MR . T_2_;,~.:_ Order , please! Mr.

Speaker , if there is room for ·t'!xpansion .Ln the fishery , then this 9overnme nt has to do a much better job in marketin g -and that is the government ' s responsibility, the Government of this Prov ince ' s reponsibility- they have t o do a much better job of marketin g , and of technological development so that we can harvest the fish stocks that are there . They have to do a much better job as a government in impr oving quality . Perhaps , Mr. Speaker, one of the most important areas that we ha ve to improue and chan ge in this Province is 2891

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1363 IB-1 ~1R. TULK: an improvement in our attitude towards the fishery. Mr. Speaker, in many cases perhaps the attitude of Newfoundlanders as a people, as a whole,towards the fishery needs to be improved. There is a feeling abroad in this Province, Mr. Speaker, in some quarters of this Province,that the fishermen in this Province get everything for free, that they are subsidized too heavily, that we should perhaps take some of the gifts,that some of those people are saying fishermen get, away from them. Some think that fishermen in this Province are an economic drag.

They are blamed for the poor quality of the fish that we have in this Province and many see our fishermen as perhaps fishing only for unemployment insurance benefits. Yet, Mr. Speaker, the real truth in this Province is that there are very few rich fishermen . There are very few fishermen who have made a fortune out of fishing. There are very few fishermen who if given the chance will not improve their success rate. MR. STAGG: What do you think about Revenue Canada's position? MR. TULK: If the member for Stephenville (Mr.

Stagg) had been around about six months ago and had read his paper instead of yapping off over there he would have found out where I stood in regards to Revenue Canada. MR. STAGG: All the people here would like to know where you stand. MR. TULK: They read their paper,unlike the member for Stephenville. I presume they do. Or can the member for Stephenville read? The toddler! No, he cannot. MR. STAGG: Get up and make that speech. 2892

...!. June 16, 1982 MR. TULK: system - MR. $TAGG: Tape No. 1363 IB-2 Mr. Speaker, the UIC We cannot remember what you said six months ago, none of us can, MR. SPEAKER (AYLWARD) : Order, please! Order! MR. TULK: The UIC system in this Province, Mr. Speaker, discourages the efforts of fishermen by lowering the amount received if they get small catches. Mr. Speaker, that is totally unfair.

I do not mind saying to the federal government and to this government that perhaps they should get together on th~s issue and should see that our fishermen's UIC benefits rather than discouraging efforts in the fishery are put in such a way that the best averages of fishermen are used. Now, Mr. Speaker, some, perhaps even some of the people sitting in this House,will say that regardless of whether the income of fishermen is up, say, in the latter part of the season, in the Fall of the year in the inshore fishery, some say, 'Oh, they should still fish regardless of what that does to their income in the Winter'.

Mr. Speaker, I just ask a simple question: Who in this Province will reduce their annual income by working longer? And that is what we are asking our fishermen to do. We are asking them to take a lower income in the Winter just to work longer in the Fall. I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, there there is not a doctor, there is not a lawyer, there is not a teacher, there is not a civil servant or there is no 2893

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1364 MR. TULK: other person in this Province that will do that ,yet that is what the present system asks of our fishermen. And that system, Mr. Speaker, is very unfair. Mr. Speaker, I want to return to the idea that our fishermen are over-subsidized and that perhaps our fishery would be better off if indeed there was less subsidization. Mr. Speaker, that feeling is abroad in this Province and one of the things that is always pointed out to our fishermen is that you get low prices for your fish because our competitors have better quality. Mr.

Speaker, let us look at some of our competitors in the world trade in fish. Let us take as the example the Norwegians, Mr. Speaker; the Norwegians are supposed to be one of our strongest competitors in world markets, the strongest competitor on the United States market, for example. And the word usually is, as I said before, that that is caused by the quality of our fish products. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am not going to argue that their product may indeed have a better quality; it could, but I do not believe it does, I do not believe Norway produces a better quality fish than we do.

If you ask some of the people who travel to Norway to study the fishery, they will tell you that indeed perhaps the quality of fish in Norway is indeed worse. But the real truth, Mr. Speaker, about why the Norwegians can compete on world rr,arkets to their advantage rather than to our advantaye, the real truth is that their yovernment is much heavier involved in the subsidization o[ thu Norwegian industry thim is the Newfoundland government. SD - 1 Mr. Speaker, that is another attitude that we seem to have; WE' seem to have the .Jttitude, as I said, that s~bsidization is bad for the fishery. Yet 2894

June 16 , 1982 Tape No . 1664 MR . TULK : Mr . Speaker, the Non~egians. on the other hand, seem to not look at the public funds that they put into the fishery as a subsidization,but rather as an investment . And perhaps that is an attitude that we should use, that we should adopt. I think we should adopt that attitude . For example, Mr . Speaker, if you look at the landed value of fish products in this Province in 1980 , the landed value of fish products in Newfoundland in 1980 was $161 million. The export value of that fish was $400 million. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is again ,as a former Premier of this Province was fond of saying , that is new dollars , new dollars into the economy , ne w dollars that go , I would suggest , to pay your salary , mine and perhaps every other salary in this House .And yet, Mr . Speaker, last year the expenditure of the 28 95 so - 2

June 16, 1.982 •rape No . B65 NM-1 MR . TULK: Provincial Department of Fisheries .,.,as .,.,hilt in this Provinc e? lvhat \-las the im•estment that the Province put into the fi shery? MR . STAGG : $23 million . MR . TULK : No , 1-tr . Speaker, it was not $23 million . Tt.e estimated expenditure last year was $19,447,800 to be exact . What was the actual expenditure of this governme:nt? What .,.,ils their actual expenditure? Something like $16 million. The exact !iqurcs ~re $16,335,000 . In other words, Mr . Speaker - ~1R . DINN: Smallwood said, 'Burn your boats' . MR .

TULK : Smallwood might have said , 'Burn your boats,' he may have, I am not sure that he did, but you are saying that the fishermen do . MR . DINN : l-Ie arc buildinq them instead of burning them. l.ffi . HODDER : That is why yon raised the interest on fishermen's lo~ns . MR . TULK: Mr . Speaker, as a matter of fact, this government last year estimated that they would spend $19 million in the fishery , and in actual fact, through the efforts of the l·linister of Finance (Dr .

Collins) Jast Fall in that cloak of secrecy that went on and when he had to balance his budget, they cut $3 million off the f.isheries budget and spent something like $16 million . MR . DINN : loans . MR . TULK : We qave out $2J million in quaranteed No .,.1, Mr . Speaker, that was in il year in Hhich the industry in this 'Province .,,as qoinq through its worse year since about 1973, that this qovcrnmcnt actuully spent le3s in the fishery than they budgeted for . 2891)

June 16, 1982 Tape 1365 NM - 2 MR . TU.LK : Now, Mr. Speaker, that aside, look at that $19 million as an investment percentage over what the landed va lue of our fish wa s, and you can see that indeed it i s a ridiculous invest ment. Mr . Speak e r , let us ask this government another question , let us ask them another question . If you look at - t-1R . CARTER: It is very boring. t-!R. TULK: Well the rnember has a choice . He can leave . This House will not be t\lOrse because his presence is not here. Mr. Speak e r, let us ask the government another question.

Where do they place among the resource sector of their budget , in their budgetary system, where do they place fisheries? Where do they rank it? MR . YOUNG : Number one . NR . TULK : MR . lliSCOCK: Number one . 1\rtc .r offshore . 2897

June 16, 1982 MR. TULK: from ·this thing here. rm .. QPJN: MR. TULK: '!'ape 1366 PK - 1 Let me give them a few figures There "Vrill be no boat burning. Let me give them a few. In the resource sector of this Province this year coming, the estimates are that the gross expenditure for Mines and Energy will be $53 million, the gross expenditure for the Department of Development will be $34 million, the gross expenditure for Fisheries will be $21 million - HR. YOU~ That is better. MR. TULK: - the gross expenditure for Forest Resources and Lands will be $30 million. !1R. HODDER: They will ~ay the salaries. MR.

TULK: The expenditure for Rural, Agriculture and Northern Develo~ment will be $32 million. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us rank those, let us put them in the order of rank. We see first of all that the government has put Mines and Energy first. We know why that is. Because that is the pipe dreams of the Premier, this offshore oil and gas. Is Fisheries, first? No. Is it second? No. Is it third or fourth? Is the investment in Fisheries by U1is government third or fourth? The answer is, no. Fisheries is fifth and last, Mr. Speaker. Fifth and last. It occupies fifth place. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh ! MR. TULK: Now, Mr.

Speaker, their priority then for Fisheries is that in the resource sector of their budgetary system it has to come last. 1\nd fourth, of course, comes the second most important industry in this Province and that is Forestry. Now, Mr. Speaker, T want to return to the Premier's notion::; or what the fishery should be, and it is coming through in his budget - I 'VI ish he \·Jere 2898

June 16, 1982 Tape 1366 PK - 2 MR. TULK : in the House- it is coming through in his budget . 'l'he government 's notion of what the fishery should be is coming tl"..rouah in his budget. Because, you see,it seems to me listening to the other side speak on occasion on the fishery,that they have this romantic notion of the fishery;that where everybody in outport Ne\.;foundland have a fishing boat , they are catching rabbits , and they are shooting moose in the Fall of the year, they are making $7,000 2899

June 16, 1982, Tape 1367, Page 1 -- apb MR. 'fOLK: a year, t-1r. S;:>eaker- that is the average for a long­ liner fisherman in this Province- t~e philosophy of this government regarding the fishery, Mr. Speaker, seems to be t~ keep Newfoundland people poor but happy. And that is basically what the Premier said. I would like to suggest to him, t-tr . Speaker, that he is perhaps reading a little bit too much Shakespeare, because Shakespeare could have a field day with that kind of romantic notion. Mr . Speaker, let it not be said that we on this side do not wish to see more people fishing, but only, Mr.

Speaker, if we arc willing as a government, and as a Legislature to see that those people have a decent livelihood . hnd anybody who contends that a longliner fisherman in this Province today, making between an average of $6,000 to $8,000 - $7,000 is the median figure - anybody who suggests that anybody making $7,000 in this day and age, with a family to feed - MR . BAIRD : figure (rom? MR . TUL.K : you appointed and ignored. Where did you get that The royal commission that Anybody \.JhO suggests that $7,000 is an adequate livelihood, Mr. Speaker, are dreaming, they are romantics .

If that is to happen, if we are to put more people in the fishery, then this government has to put its money where its mouth is, the fishery c~nnot be placed last on their resource sector inves=ment spending list . It cannot be done, Mr. Speaker . Mr . Speaker, let us look again, and I 1o~ant to answer a question put for1vard by 29~0

June 16, 1982, Tape 1367, Page 2 -- apb MR. TULK: the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg), his favourite question, let us look again at the lack of planning and action that this government carries on in the fishery. Sometime ago the Minister of Fisheries(Mr. Morgan), and again he is not in his seat today, he has not been there for a couple of days, probably legitmately, but he has not been there, but sometime aqo - MR. RIDEOUT: He is studying fish. MR.TULK: He needs to study fish.

Sometime ago the Minister of Fisheries came into this House with a Ministerial Statement in which he was upset with the federal minister for trading off 10,000 metric tons of caplin. AN HON. MEMBER: And well he should be. MR. TULK: And well he should be. We agreed. We asked him to make his telex to the Federal Minister of Fisheries(Mr. LeBlanc) unanimous. We made the statement, I believe, that there should be no fish going out of Canadian waters unless it was caught by Canadians and particularly Newfoundlanders. SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oh, oh! MR. TULK: Because, Mr.

Speaker, we believe on this side of the House that this term that is being used by both the Province dnd, in some cases, the federal government, the term 'surplus stock' should not exist in Newfoundland. Surplus stock. a surplus stock of fish in Canadian waters. Mr. Speaker, the Province believes that - DR. COLLINS: MR. TULK: How about silver hake? Silver hake? We should be able to catch it and sell it. There should not be a surplus stock. 2901

June 16 ,1982 •rape No . 1368 ah-1 MR .TULK : Mr . Speaker, how is surplus stock defined by this government? How does the minister define it? He defines it as a fish , as a species that we have not traditionally caught or that we do not have the technology to catch . One of those two criteria apply , you know, to surpl us stock. Well, Mr. Speaker, Jet me ask the question \-rho has control of the rate of technological development in the fishery in this Province? MR.NEARY : Riqht on! Hear, hear ! MR.TULK: Who has the control of marketing of fish in this Prov ince? MR. NEARY: IHqht on .

MR.TULK : Who has the cont1·o1 as to whether -----our fis hery develops or not? MR . DINN : You cannot sell it ~vhen it is ~ll 9; ven away . MR .TULK : It is your government anv,if you do not know it you should wake up and realize it . 1-tR. D!NN : It is hard to sell fish ,.,hen 159,000 metric tons are given away . MR . TULK: The point that r am makinc1 to you is by your own defini t1on , by your o~m definition, if you had developed technolocr)<'.:~llv in this Province MR . DINN : Bow can you sell if they will , not let vou catch it to sell? MR .SPEAKER(Aylward) : Order, please !

MR .TULK : - there would not be n surplus stock to trade off . AN HON .M EMBER : fleur. hear! -------MR. DINN : The reason \ve have not gn r t.he tec'1noloqy(inaudible). MR . 'l'ULK : You have mu ffcd it . You have been there for ten years nnd you have mu(fed it. MR . NEARY : You are too stunned to qet. out of your own ~·;ay over there . 2qQ?

June 16,1982 Tape No. 1368 ah-2 SOME HON.MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.NEARY : You are too stunned to get out of your own way over there. MR. DINN: Burn your boats. MR. HISCOC'K: And buy Russian cars.Buy Russian cars. MR.TULK: Mr. Speaker, could we have the Yahoo from down in Pleasantville somewhere, he belongs there somewhere, could we have him quite please? MR. SPEAKER(.Aylward) ; Order, please! MR.DINN : The member for Porro (Mr. Tulk) got more boats than all of·you put together. MR.TULK: Mr. Speaker, is he going to carry on like that or do we have to strap him in the seat?

MR.NEARY: Go down and collect from the telephone company. MR.TULK: Strap him in the seat or kick him out. Give him a flick. MR. HISCOCK: That does not say anything ?or the intelliqence of the voters .i_n vour ilistd_t:-t UJ"UrTrt. MR. DINN: You will never get back in Social Services again. MR.TULK: Mr. Speaker, they wonder at the intelligence of the voters in the outports voting for Liberals, when they voted for that. They voted for that. Mr.

Speaker, the point is that if this government and its predecessor, the former administration, not the former, former ~dministration but the former administration,if they had developed this Province,especially technologically,there would be no surplus stock and there would be very little for the federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. LeBlanc) to fool around with. Now, Mr. Speaker, I ?903

June 16,1982 Tape No . 1368 ah-.3 MR . TU!.K : wenL on to ask t:he minister , l.n that little interchange that we had, I ~;ent on to ask the minister about the trading of our stocks to the Russians, all of this surplus stock . And I heard somebody, as I said befor~,groan over there that I seemed to be against St. John's . Well , the truth is, 111r. Speaker, that if that 151,000 metric tons of fish came ashore in this Province,St .

John's 1o~ould benefit far more th an it is p.ce- ~ently benefitino from the Russians bringing their few ships in here, I think it is $2.25 million a year . f-1R .NEARY : Puttinq them on dry dock . MR .TULK : Now, Mr . Speaker, last year this government - my time has just about run out and I suppose r will qet back at it, hut last year the government,for technological development in this J"rovinc!:', ? ~ ~ '•

June 16, 1982 Tape 1369 NM - 1 MR. TULK: what did they do? They budgeted a measley $671,000 for development, technological development of our fishery. The shame of it was though that again,through the knife of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), they spent something like $549,000, over $100,000 less than the measly $670,000 that they had budgeted. Mr. Speaker, is it any wonder that there is fish ou ·t there that this government says is surplus stock? What did they do in product and market development last year? MR. NEARY: Nothing. MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: MR.

TULK: The minister, if he were here I would say it - He went down to Puerto Rico for a holiday. - the minister is the best travelled minister in North America. MR. DINN: He did not go to Panama to see John C. MR. TULK: He is a qlobe trotter. MR. NEARY: :re went down to Puerto Rico. MR. TULK: He should join the Harlem Globe Trotters. But what did they budqet for marketing last year? Again a measly $517,000 but how much did they spend? MR. STAGG: A measly $500,000. MR. TULK: Yes, to an industry that is as important as the ' fishery it is measly. How much did they spend, Mr.

Speaker? $275,000, again the knife of the Minister of Finance. MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. TULK: About 55 per cent of what was budgeted for marketing in this Province last year was spent, and that in spite of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that we had the worst market conditions in this Province's history in the fishery. 2905

June 16, 1982 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : time has elapsed. MR. TULK: at it. MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. ANDREWS : Tape 1369 NM - 2 Order, please~ The han. gentleman's Oh my, Mr. Speaker. I was just getting The hon. Minister of Environment. Hear, hear: Mr. Speaker, I really cannot get too much enthusiasm about this motion which reads - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. ANDREWS: "WHEREAS both the inshore and offshore sectors of the Province's fishery are in a state of crisis." It is certainly true. No truer statement was ever made.

I would like to come back in a few moments as to why the fishery is in a state of crisis. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. ANDREWS: learn something. (Inaudible). Stay around you might hear something, "AND

WHEREAS it seems apparent that the present provincial government has neither the desire nor the ability to develop long-term strategies or policies for the Province's fishery." Now,I just went down to my office lunch time and I started going through a few things. There is something that was published in 1980, Newfoundland and Labrador Managing All Our Resources, a considerable piece of information in there about the fishery, setting a course for Newfoundland for the fishery, six volumes written by Newfoundlanders for the Government of Newfoundland.

This is the policy and there is a policy, and for those members who,on the other side of the House 1 have never taken the time probably to read 2906

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1370 so - l MR. ANDREWS: this,or to understand the importance of the fishery and how we are trying to handle it, this government is trying to handle it, I must give you a few lessons. The essence of the policy of the Newfoundland qovernment is this - highlighted throughout this book - 'Northern cod must be reserved to ensure a middle distance effort to extend it to the extent that it can be harvested by that fleet'. Now, Mr. Speaker, that in itself is a statement of policy with a lot of significance for Newfoundland fishermen.

What we are saying there, what the government is saying is that Northern cod, the first access to that should be by inshore fishermen. The cost of catching codfish is a lot less, the unit cost for catching is a lot less than when you use small boats, trap boats, longliners, gill-netters, whatever the case may be, the cost is a lot less than these multi-million dollar draggers, although there certainly is a need for the multi-million dollar draggers in areas where you want to have seasonal fish plants.

Along and hand in hand with that policy there is also a policy of encouraging the construction of what is commonly called middle-distance fishing boats and this programme is well underway right now. We also say, ' Where within the total allowable catch a surplus to inshore effort can be clearly shown to exist 1 it must be reserved to offshore effort landing into Newfoundland ports, primarily for distribution to processing plants which now operate on a seasonal basis. Once again, Mr.

Speaker, when this Northern cod is taken by vessels from Nova Scotia or New Brunswick,or vessels that have traditionally fished off the Scotia shelf or the gulfand now find it convenient to say that they had traditional fishing grounds off the Northeast Coast of Newfoundland and Labrador,when fish 2907

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1370 MR . ANDREWS : is taken by those vessels and brought to mainland ports in Canada, I think we are into a very serious situation. Equally, and probably more devastating ,is the continued trade -off that is happening \-Jith the Northern cod to foreign countries . This certainly has ~o stop . All trade off may not have to stop ,but 1 think there has to be meaninqful consultation with the Government of Newfoundland so that we can know \~hat the federal authorities are thinking so our plans can go hand in hand with them . It is no sense for them to - sometimes it is certainly worthwh~lc to trade off. Grenadier, for lnstance,is a species th<lt has very 2909 so - 2

.... June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1371 IB-1 MR . 1\NDREWS: little commercial value in this l'rovince. It may in the future,but at the present time I would be quite willing, if I was the Minister of Fisheries for Newfoundland, to trade off a lot of grenadier for somp nt.her benefit that Newfoundland may get,or Canada 1 certainly. But this indiscriminate trading and permittinq foreign nations to take fish, in particular caplin - a lot of our fishermen are very worried about the amount of caplin being cau~ht nnn the amount squid,which is the bait fish for our codfish and other food fishes that we sell on the market.

Here is another policy position of -the provj ncial <JOVernment. In addition to problems associated with the Northern cod,there is a further problem associated with the management of offshore fish stocks in the Grand Banks area. When the current Law of the Sea Conference was commenced some years ago, Newfoundland took the position that in order for Canada to protect the fish stocks upon which the Province's fishermen depend,it would be necessary for Canada to extend its jurisdiction not merely to the 200 mile limit but to the edcre of the Conb nental Shelf.

And this is a very important point,because we find ourselves, in Canada,as the only country in the world where a 200 mile economic zone does not include the whole Continental Shelf. It would be precedent setting for Canada to take the action,but I think that the world community would accept it. And if we do not have that control over the whole Continental Shelf,there is going to be, as we see now, a very difficult problem in managing the fish stocks as they migrate from the tail and the nose of the 2909

June 16, 1982 Tape No . 1371 IB -2 1-11L ANDRE\vS: Bank, b:1ck and forth in side the 200 mile lin oit . The fish do not understnnd the boundary line as some of the captains of the ships , I think, that fish there too lo not recognize it . This is a very important one and something that from the time of the inception of the Law of the Sea Conference was a position that Newfoundland took.

Now Ne111foundland' s initial fears are being realized , Hhen certain countries enga ge in indiscriminate fishing on the nose and tail of the Bank just outside the 200 mile zone~ The ;'ICtion jeopardized the stoc ks upon which our offshore trawler fleet have tradit ion nlly depended . And you talk to any trawler captain or any trawler fi sherm an along the South Coast who fishes tho se D.rc~s <Jnd he 111i U r~infon:c that statemont: . That is a statement of our position of our polJcy . This is a very detailed document, ~tr. Speaker . The second t-1HERE7\S in this motion ,

WHEREAS the ins hore and offshore sectors of the Province's =ishery are in a state of crisis, relate back to a lot o= these issues, issues that we have very little control over . Novl , we do have control over,and it has been said in this !louse many tjmes, control over a sign if ican t. par:: 2910

June 16, 1982, Tape 1372, Page l -- apb MR. ANDREWS: of the fishing industry. We have control over licencing of fish and over the plant operation, whether a plant gets a licence or not. This government is dedicated to the continuance of the fishery, I think,which was ~roved in this last six or seven months when we, through the taxpayers of Newfoundland, helped over seventeen fish plants reopen, seventeen fish companies - I think there are more than seventeen individual plants - seventeen fish companies reopened and thousands and thousands of Newfoundlanders back to work.

I know in my own district, the fish plant at Burgeo and the fish plant at Ramea are working great quns. On the other hand, the federal government decided in its own wisdom, or greedy wisdom to avoid the issue by appointing the Kirby Task Force which did the tremendous thing of opening one fish plant in one Newfoundland community over the past six months.

And that is obviously an attempt by the federal government to come in the back door and nationalize and socialize the fishing industry of Newfoundland, by putting it in the management of the Canadian Saltfish Corporation, which I think most fishermen, and certainly the industry in Newfoundland would be deadly opposed to. MR. NEARY: Who Of)ened Grand Bank? l'Jho opened Gaultois? Who O?ened St. Anthony? MR. ANDREWS: A little bit of money from the Province, I would say. A little bit of money from the Province, I would say, Sir. We are opposed to national- ization of the fishery.

We will help, and we have helped over the past six to eight months. Fish companies which got themselves in trouble because of market conditions and because of conditions beyond their control, because of lack of fish, because of high interest rates, factors 2911

June 16 , 1982, Tape 1372, Page 2 -- apb M~. ANDREWS : that they had no control over, we have helped them along . In some cases we have taken an equity position in the plants , others , most of them, it has been a guaranteed loan that they have to repay. SOME HON . ME~1BERS : t-1R . ANDREWS: Hear, hear! We believe that independent fish companies can run their businesses a lot better than governn1ent being involved . ~nd the proof of that is also in my own distr~ct, Mr.

Speaker, in the community of Burgeo, where the transfer of the fish plant was finalized this Spring ,with some taxpayers' money in there to sweeten the deal ,for Nat~onal Sea Products . It is my understanding that product~vity in that plant - productivity and quality control has improved by almost 100 per cent since the government withdrew its financial involvemenc in that plant . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! MR. ANDREWS : The workers are a lot more happy, the management is happy, and hopefully the company can make a profit .

Cert~inly it is not the position of any government to stick its nose int o 0 business lhal is so complicated and that needs such expert management as the fishing 2ndustry. We should be there to help when times get bad and beyond the control o! the processor or the fisherman, 2912

J June 16, 1982 Tupe No. 1373 MJ - l MR. H. ANDREWS: things beyond his control, high interest r.ates, low market prices in the United States, low fish stocks, low catches, low landings, the whole works ·, u:;t crowding in upon him. We should be there to help out for the benefit of the fisherman ilnd the workers in the plant und the Newfoundland economy in qeneral. And that is wlcnt '•'P. "'""" heen doing. MR. STAGG: We are not competing with companies. MR. ANDREWS: We are not competing with companies.

In companies •vhf>rp '·re I--t ave taken an equity position, we have also taken a position on the Board of Directors of those companies and that position on the Board of Directors gives us il very close monitoring of the companies' financial i1ff";r~. MR. L . SIMMS : It is better than burning your boats, is it? MR. ANDREWS: Tt is bctter,indecd,than burning t.hei.r bo<1ts. We are very worried, Mr. Speaker, about the seasonal nature of the Newfoundland fishery and,as the hon. member from F'oqo (Mr. B. Tulk) talked about,the low earnings of thP Newfoundland longliner fishermen and small hoat fishermen.

Their P.arnings ure too low, but a lot of those problems, once again <tr" 'JP.yond his control al tn..,.,...r:·v~r. If he has to deal with 20 per cent money, or 18 per cent money, selling into a market where the price of fish has not improved i~ three •Jr four or five yea~s for some products, it is a desperate situation. I would hope that the Kirby Task Force will come up and face that serious problem. Th<1t is a very heavy financial dilemma that I do not think this little Province with our half a million people could possibly undertake 1 that is some kind of a subsidy directly to the fisherman.

But it is something that is qoiny to have to be considered, no doubt. 2913

June 16, 1982 Tape 1373 MJ- 2 MR. H. ANDREWS: Marketing, of course, always comes up as a factor whenever we talk about the problems of the fishery . MR. TULK: What about quality? MR. ANDREWS: Our quality, coming from our Newfoundland fish plants now, is reputed to be very good quality. The quality has improved considerably over the past numbers of years. I think our product mix leaves something to be desired. We still may be putting out a cheaper product, even though the quality of that product is good. I refer to such items as cod blocks, instead of putting out the finished product, which 2 ~ 111

June 16, 1982 Tape 1374 PK - 1 MR. ANDREWS: is a little bit difficult if you get into cooking ,because of the tariff on that in the United States. But we have developed many new products in our fish plants in Newfoundland. I guess Fishery Products have led the way, That company has probably led the way in this Provincel along with National Sea who are a very good marketing organization also. I think that is probably the answer to a lot of our problems.

When you look at the manufacturers of soap and detergents and things like that, and toothpaste,you will find that it is basically the same product, .Soap detcnJcnt may be - a company like Colgate - Pamolive might manufacture thirty or forty different products. HR. CALL .I\N: 1\re you talking about the phosphorus out of Long Earbour now? MR. ANDREWS: Pardon? HR. CALLAN: Are you talking about phosphorus? MR. ANDREWS: Phosphorus. MR. SIMMS: Stop harrassing the hon. member he is making a good speech. MR.

ANDREWS: That is what I refer to as a product mix, it is to get as much of the market as you can.And in the sense confuse the customer. The quality is a little bit satisfactory. But because of the history of poor quality, Mr. Speaker, coming from this Province and Nova Scotia and the other Maritime Provinces too ,we find ourselves in the position now that American buyers will pay forty to sixty cents a pound ~ore for Icelandic and t~orwegian fish without looking at it 1 because there are still some places and some areas and some plants that do produce a not (815

June 16, 1982 'l'npe 1374 PK - 2 HR . ANDREWS : so good quality of fi sh . The American buyers when they buy Scandinavian products, know they arc ~etting a good product . So there is still a lot of work to be done there . But by and large we h~ve certainly come a very long ways . Product oevclopmcmt 1'\s I said, I see the role there for prod\lct. clcvelopmcnt as a major role that the Province can help out in . With all due re spect to what the Opposition have been saying about the Minister of Fisheries (i•tr . Morgan) he has been promotinq Newfoundland fi sh. lie is in Alberta right now .

The first (ish ever flown to California from Newfoundla nd came out o£ a trip th at he took down there a little while back . 2°15

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1375 SD - l MR. NEARY: That is not true, they have been flying it out of my district for fifteen years. MR . ANDREWS: I do not know, they may be flying it out of your district-to California? MR. NEARY: MR. ANDREWS: order this time. MR. NEARY: for about fifteen years. MR. ANDREWS : I1.R. HOUSE: To California. Oh, I see. Well we have a bigger From Stephenville to California The order is increased considerably . Not true, not true. MR.

NEARY: ' The hon. gentleman does not have a clue to what hE> is tnlkiprr <"h.out. 'T'he "'ar!-:et \·!as cut of Leadina Tickles, there was an unlimited market fifteen years ago. The only thing was that Air Canada would not give them a rate, that was the problem. MR. ANDREWS : That was the problem.

The air rates now seem to be quite acceptable to most o~ the of course, the great advantage to flying fish is that the cost of producing the product is considerably less than going through the process of freezing it and storina it, and the dollar return is substantially higher because you are presenting the customer with a much better product. Those are some of the - I see my time is just about out - SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. By leave. MR. ANDREWS: -Mr. Speaker. There are so~e of the things that I would like to talk about. MK. HOUSE: A very good speech, one of the better ones . MR.

ANDREWS : This motion here, Mr. Speaker, I cannot support it because its main thrust is that this government does not have a fisheries policy. We have, I think, the most refined,well thought out,and documented fishery policy in North America today, certainly for all 2 91 7

June 16, 1982 •rape No. 1375 so - 2 MR . ANDREWS : the Canadian provinces . There has been no government do as much work This is iust some of it r have here, there is more of it in my briefcase . 'l'hil'! is just some of it, and this policy is being put in place as quickly as possible. l-Ie have to get in a position where we ~an sit dO\~ and talk to our federal counterparts in areas where w~ cannot begin policy because we are not informed by them and we disagree larqely to some of their policies.

And when we can rca~h some type of an agrel:!mcnt there, and I do not think that that shouJc'l h~ very difficult, I think you will see great things happening in the Newfoundland Cishery. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear . t-1R . SPEAKER (Russell): l-'-~· HISCOCK: The hon. member for Eagle River . Mr . Speaker, in supporting this motion about the fisheries, the main thread of Newfoundland's social, cultural and economit; fabt"ic, thet·c is no question that it is the main fabric of our society 2Q1~

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1376 IB-1 MR. HISCOCK : and it has been for over 400 years. With regard to that, Mr. Speaker, there are some myths in this Province-and I will try to address a few of them in this speech today - that I think need to be overcome. One of them is, of course, that Canada owns the 200 mile limit. We have a lot of people in this Province who feel that Canada owns the 200 mile limit. No country in this world owns 200 rr.iles. There is a 200 mile economic zone that was agreed upon at the Law of the Sea Conference in Caracus and Venezuela. The former member for Burg eo -St.

George's, and also the former ~1inister for P.xternal Affairs, Mr. Donald Jamieson 1as well as Mr. Romeo LeBlanc and Allan !1acF.achen, the Minister of l,'i ni1ncc in Ottawa now 1werc three people who fought tohavc this law passed. One of the reasons why, of course, was the sea line of the district of the member for Burgeo-St. George's at that time and also with regard to the lifeblood of the Province. We found ourselves at a time where Russians were coming in more and more, Japanese were coming in more and more, also East Germans, Poles and S~aniards.

Spain probably and France have an historic right on the Grand Banks, more so thRn any other country. So what we are seeing now in this Province,where again I find that the attitude of this government is continually encouraging our people to accept their propaganda, to accept their ignorance. And one of the ignorant things we are perpetuating on our people is that we own the 200 mile limit. And when the federal government allows West Germany to take 10,000 metric tons,somehow or another it is a crime that they are taking 10,000 metric tons0f Canadian fish.

It is not Canadian fish, it is in the 200 mile economic zone 2919

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1376 IB-2 MR . HISCOCK: thaL the sovereign states of the world have deci~ed,because of proper manaqement ,we should have qo~e rules and regulations on . The same thing with the Morthern cod when Japan comes in there or Russia, fishing. r thin~, Mr . Speal nr, in fairness to our people in the rural a rcas or our l'rov ince who do not get as much media exposure from t.v. and nev1spapers and print, that it is incumbC?nt upon elected representatives, particularly the gove=nmcnt and the Minister of Fisheries (~tr.

Morgan). to brinq this argument home, that we do not own the 200 mile limjL, it is an economic zone. With regard to that, Mr . Speaker, in this 200 mile economic zone, the Minister of Environment (Mr. /\ndrcws) sn i<.l that we shoul<l C}:ten<.l it to the tail of 2~?0

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1377 MJ - 1 MR. E. HISCOCK: the Grand Bank and the nose of the Grand Bank, which goes out 400 miles. And there is no question about it, that the fish do not know the difference and keep swimming back and forth. But I do know if the world international community would accept Canada's position of going 200 miles. As it has gone now there are some countries in the world that do not agree with this now. The United States, for example, do not accept that the Northwest Territories and the Passage are in Canadian waters.

They look upon those as international waters, and that is the reason why, of course, they sent the Manhattan up in 1967. So, we in our situation, it would be a good idea to extend it to a 400 mile limit, or even more than that, up to the nose and the tail of the Grand Banks, but again, can we get Russia, the United States ,, Great Britain, France, Spain and China to agree with this? And the answer is, of course, no. So what we are faced with is management. And how do we say to these countries that this is a resource that our people in this part of the world depend upon and need to manage?

It is our life style and it is the social, cultural and economic fabric of our country and our Province, Newfoundland and Canada. And, of course, there is no quest­ ion that they will realize it and they will respect it. But does that prevent Spain from saying - who has fished over here for over 400 years, the bass, long before the English, long before the French - from saying 'Okay, you want the 200 mile economic zone, but do you not think we have traditional rights, because we have always come over here?' And, of course, the answer is yes, if we look at the international laws.

But in this House we say, 'No, it is our fish, it is our surplus and they cannot have it.' So what happens to our fisherman in the rural areas? They get emotional, they get on with the government's Newfoundland nationalism 2921

June 16, 1982 Tape No . 1377 l1.J - 2 MR . E. HISCOCK: und suy , Yes, such and such about Spain, such and such a thinq about Fran ce and about Russia . Speaker - DR . COLLINS : MR. HISCOCK: IHth regard to the other part , Mr . (Inaudible) . 1 ( the ~1inistcr ol' Finan~ (Ct· . Cbllinsl u,.>i.Jlci onlv allow m<> tu ~ontinut:, insteud of, Mr .

SO<'<lker, talkinq across tne floor of the House. l. do not as\: for very much ,Mr .Sp eaker, in this llouse,but I do ask that the Minister of Finance l<eep to his figures and try to do something about the economic situation in this Pcovince ,a nd I will try to do somet hi na with my t~1en ty minutes in this speech . MR.

NEARY: 11C<lr, hear! ~'~ · :,ISCOCi<: 1/i t:'~ 1 egard to the 200 mile limit. lvhat has happened is \vhen Canadn extended the 200 mile limit, someho•·• or another '"e are now lol.d by the Conservative administration, who are the same people who h;we been around for the past ten or twelve years, thnt they t-Jerc instrumental in qetting Canada to extend it to 200 miles. Well, T, ror one, '1nve always bee n in the f')()Sition, l do nol c;,1rc who takes the credit, or who takes the praise,·o;e have thu ?.00 111i lc l i~d ~. J t is n•Jt r.>erfcct, and it: ncc~d:-; Ln b ·~ improved. "O??

_, June 16, 1982, Tape 1378, Page 1 -- apb MR. HISCOCK: And with regard to that, let us see what has happened. When we got the 200 mile lirnit,we thought it was going to be the end of all our problems, just like Hibernia is supposed to be the end of our problems, just like completing the Trans­ Canada was supposed to be the end of our problems, and also Corne By Chance and Linerboard and Grand Falls and Corner Brook when they were built. And what happened? There were unlimited loans, our fishermen encouraged to get into longliners, encouraging them to get into other boats.

And with regard to that, in the election of 1979, the former Minister of Fisheries bankrupt the Loan Board in such a way that they had to replace the members of the Loan Board with another loan board. That was the fishery policy, buy the people boats in the election and let a person have a longliner, got into overfishing, got into a number of policies that led to the actual problems that we have now, Mr. Speaker, in the fishing industry. And the other part, Mr. Speaker. What happened? It was the processing licences.

If you were a supporter of the P.C.Party and you wanted a licence, a processing licence, if you gave a generous donation it was not too hard, Mr. Speaker, to get a processing licence. And there are some independent people in this Province, processors, who believe that if you have $10,000 or $15,000 it is quite easy to get a crab licence. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. HISCOCK: I, for one, do not necessarily agree with this, but this is what some of the people are saying. I, for one, hope that it is not true . MR. NEARY: I hear ~hat $25,000 is the price of a crab licence. MR. HISCOCK: But with regard to the 2923

June 16, 1982, Tape 1378, Page 2 --apb MR. HISCOCK: processing sector now, Mr. Speaker, we see it glutted. We see now H.B Nickerson and Sons closing down their plant in Lewisporte only to consolidate it in Charleston in the Triton area. We see that happening all over the Province. Why? There is no doubt about it, that the government's intentions were well meant, that they wanted to give jobs to the people in Lewisporte, and they wanted to give jobs to other people all over the Province, but there was no policy, no concrete policy of looking at the fishing industry in its entirety. It is a piece­ meal approach.

And I do not care if the Minister of the Environment(Mr. Andrews) or the Premier comes in with stacks upon stacks upon stacks of books and reports of what they are going to be doing. We have heard about the five year plan, and another five year plan, and another five year plan,and we know what has happened to those. So with regard to policy in the fishing industry, there is no policy as such, it is piecemeal. And with regard to one thing that I would just like to say, when the Minister of Fisheries(Mr.

Morgan) said the government here has given $15 million to the fishing industry from the Provincial government, through the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, I would like to inform the residents of this Province and of this House and of the gallery tnat the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation is funded 90 per cent by the federal government - MR. NEARY: Right on! MR. HISCOCK: -just like the Department of Rural Development is funded 90 per cent 2924

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1379 Pl< - 1 MR. HISCOCK: by the federal government. MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. HISCOCK: And with regard to the annual report Anchor Inn Arctic Seafood Fish Plant at Dildo - ' $400,000; Newfoundland Development Corporation, 90 per cent of tDat is federal ~oney.The Fleur de Lys Fish Plant - $800,000; 90 per cent of that federal government. Hawkes Bay Fisheries $250,000 ; P. J.

Janes and Son canning $5JJ,J00. \gain all of this that the government holds up and says look what we are doing for the fishing industry, look what we are doing for the fishery here in Newfoundland, look what we as the Provincial Government is doing, we find out it is coming from the Labrador Development Corporation and Ottawa by way of Ontario , British Columbia, and Nova Scotia and Alberta and other provinces which are putting in 90 ~er cent of it . Again I do not care where the money comes from or where the credit goes,as long as we are actually expanding those industries and making them viable.

But I do think it is important for propaganda to go to both sides and that is, of course, that the money that tRe Provincial Government is giving, in actual fact is brought in from t'.1e federal government, a Newfoundland stamp put on it by a Newfoundland department or programme, there':::>y getting :::JOlitical patronage as a result. One thing that I would also like to deal with,and I think it is our total responsi~ility and I think it says something of us as a Province, after 400 years we still do not even know how to sell fish.

There are some people who would even say Ke do not even know how to catc:1 it, tha~ we have not improved our technology over the ages, that we still produce a 9oorer nualitv of fish than Icelanc'l and Norway. I remember the Federal Fisheries Hinister, Mr. Romeo LaBlanc, when he was in L'Anse-au-Louu in my.district and he announced $13.5 million for a coastal 2925

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1379 PK-2 MR. HISCOCK: Labrador fishing progranune. He said he was a little bit upset when he attends International Fishing Conferences and has to tell these conferences that countries farther a\vay from the American market can actually get the fish into the American market and get a higher price for the quality than Canada who is right on the doorstep of the American market.

And that has to be ansv1ered by t\vO or three things it has to be ansv1ered by the policies of this government and the past governments, not only this qoverrlment but the past governments, it has to answered hy the Union in thjs Province and past Unions, and it has to be answered, also, by the fishermen themselves. A lackadaisical attitude, 2926

= June 16,1982 Tape No. 1380 ah-1 MR.HISCOCK: and anything is good enough as long as I get enough money to see me through the Winter approach.

Marketing~ I cannot see why, wnen we have a university, we cannot take ten or fifteen or twenty top students in the BA programme, put them on to a NBA programme,if we have to send them to Princeton, Yale or Harvard or over in Europe anywhere, train them in several different languages and then get them in the marketing and send them on over to Europe and get them into selling for us instead of taking a piecemeal attitude and allowing seven or eight fish companies in Newfoundland to go and try to sell their fish as a person would try to sell things on the streets of New York or any other large city,having no more plann- ing than that.

The answer, Mr. Speaker,to it is marketing. We have no marketing approach not only with our fish but with our agricultural products, with our Tourism or whatever, we have n0 packaging and we have no marketing.

And if we had a marketing approach, Mr.Speaker, in a rational way we could go into the American markets, we could try to lobby Congress and the House of Representatives there to lower their tariffs in trade.off for other things , in trade off for other things, and go to the European economic community and have our own skilled,qualified people who are versed in three or four languages , have them as lobbyists to try and convince, like the environmentalists did with the seals -and we found out whn·r_ the environmentalist :Brlan Davies could do with a bit of pressure and a few hundred thousand dollars.

If we had those in various parts of the world and took an aggressive approach with the Canadian government,with the Canadian Embassies in these countries, then we might be able to break into new markets. But, no, r~r. Speaker, the attitude 2927

June 16,1982 Tape No. J380 ah-2 MR. HISCOCK: is that we cannot give a1·1ay surplus fish. And if we give a1·1ay surplus fish, then there is something wrong. MR.NEARY: f.I.R . HISCOCK : Why do you not go out and kiss the ?remier's picture? So the answer to that is, Mr. Speaker, if we ca-:ch all the fish that ~o~e possibly can catch in ~villingate and Fogo and co~stal Labrador and St. ~nthony and Burgeo and Ramea, if ~o~e catch all the fish that we can possibly catch and give all the longliners a wage because of the ~rice of fish, and also the fishermen but we have no markets f.or it, what happens?

What happens is what happened in the 70s, and that is the bottom 111ent out of the market, we? had to form the Canadian Saltfish Corporation to buy the fish and sell it off to third world countries . 2928

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1381 IB-1 MR. HISCOCK: And a lot of the third world countries, by the way, Mr. Speaker, did not particularly enjoy getting salt fish when they much preferred to get rice or wheat. But that is what Canada basically did, sent it over to them and said, 'Here is protein'. And we know really 1 if we look at it, we know what salt really does to the diet. With regard to the other part of the stockpiles, Mr.

Speaker, if we do not get into the markets of the United States and into Europe,and we do not learn to compete with Iceland and Norway,then there is nothing that we really can do if our product is of a low quality. The reality is in the United States they want cod blocks because of the tariff. So we have to do something about the tariff. The reality is also in the United States that the younger people much prefer to buy McDonalds, Burger King, Kentucky Fried Chicken or pizza and it is actually cheaper to buy some of these things that it is to buy fish.

And if we are going to break into these,then we need to work with the federal government, not take the attitude,as this government has been doing for the past three or four years, of saying, 'We want co-operation' but then lambaste the federal government when they give a trade off of squid and when they give a trade off of caplin or when they give a trade off of cod. The answer is more complex,and if we really address the question,maybe we 1 as a country, could become great and find more international markets for not only our fish but our wheat and other products.

Also 1with regard to our own Province,we could learn to expand our fishing industry, we could learn to expand our tourism and our agriculture. 2929

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1381 IB-2 MR. HISCOCK: But the answer to this, of course, is not, Mr. Speaker - we do not get that. MR. TULK: Not with this crowd. MR. HISCOCK: So with regard to the other questions. Spain 1 particularly with regard to the 200 mile limit,in many cases has ignored it. When Mr. Trudeau, the Prime Minister of Canada, was over in Spain,that was one of the questions that Mr. Trudeau picked up with King Carlos and he ended up saying to him, 'We need more control over the Grand Bank, the 200 mile limit 1 and Spain,itself,is not following international law the way we see it'.

But the Spanish King said, 'But we have been going over there for 400 years and fishing and why should you change the rules of the game now?'. And with that, through a trade off 1 hopefully we will get the Spaniards a little bit more under control. The Russians now have basically said that they are not going to enter into a fishing agreement with Canada again~ If that is the case,they can basically breakdown and we could end up seeing an end to the 200 mile economic zone within Canada. And so could East ~ermany follow and Poland follow. 2930

~ JWle 16, 19~2 Tap e No. 1382 RA- 1 MR. HISCOCK : So it is not a reality , it is something that is put there . And maybe the member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) would much prefer a gun­ boat style of deplomacy . So it is very complex, ~tr . Speaker, when we even have the city of St. John's say ­ ing , 'Allow the Russian fleet to go off with the North­ ern cod an~ fish on the Grand Banks, because we want the synchrolift here in St. John's . Or Gander says, 'We want Aeroflot to continue to land in Gander'. So even in our own Province we see the complexed reality of trade offs .

And if Moscow can see Gander and St .John's competing with the rural areas , then they can sa y, "Well, obviously we asked for an extra quota and of course we are going to get it , because they need tha ·t $6 million in St . John's or that $10 million in Gander". MR . DINN : If they gave over the fishery we would not need it. MR. HISCOCK: So, Mr. Speaker, with regard to the other part, and in closing, the Kirby Task Force - I regret again there has to be a task force set up by the federal government .

We have been waiting for this Royal Commission on the fisheries .When we had problems lvith the fishing industry strike, lvhat did we do? We had a Royal Commission and we are still waitin g for it . But with regard to that, at least we have the plants in Gaultois and Grand Bank and st . Anthony opened. 2931

June 16, 1982 Tape No . 1382 RA - 2 t-1R. SPEAKER(JI.yhlard) : Order, please! MR. HISCOCK: So, Mr. Speaker , in closing I would hope that this government will co-operate not only with industry,not only with the unions, not only with the National Government but with our fishermen in this Province and try to find some concrete solution~ to our serious problems . t-1R. NEARY: SOME HON . r-IEMBERS : MR. HISCOCK : MR. SPEAKER: The Capes. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Right on! Hear, hear ! Thank you, Mr . Speaker. The hon . the membe.r for st.Mary's- Hear, hear! t-1R. HEARt.~: Mr .

Speaker, representing the great fishing district of St . Mary's-The Capes, the great P.C. fishing district of St. Mary's -The Capes - SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . HEARN: - I feel it is an honour and a duty - MR. NEARY: MR. TULK: MR. HEARN: That is only for the time beinq. That is a temporary state. T\-:ent_y years. - a duty to stand up and speak to any resolution on the fishery . 2932

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1383 MR. HEARN: It is a bit ironic that down here we have a bunch of people who profess to know so much about the fishery,and that includes the han. members on this side, while in the galleries today we have men who have had more salt water go over them then we will ever see in a lifetime. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. HEARN: Sometimes, Mr. Speaker, I think it would be much more beneficial for us,and perhaps for the Province in general,if we were there and they '"ere her e. L:owever that is not the case and it is up to us to go on. ~B~ -~~ ARY: They must be your con tituents . MR.

HEARN: Certainly. In the years since these people were fishing, there has been a tremendous transition in the fishery. And as my han. colleague so - l from Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) just mentioned, fishing technology has exploded in recent years. And r am not sure­ r agree with him when he said I am not sure whether that is for the better or not. However, there are a few things he said that I certainly do not agree with and perhaps are not quite factual. When he talked about the 200 mile zone, we have to realize that the coastal state has the right to harvest any fish within the 200 mile coastal zone.

The only way anyone else will have any access to that fish is if the coastal state cannot harvest the fish. I am quite sure, and I stand to be corrected, that we have reached the end of the various phase out agreements with the other countries who are fishing inside that zone with the exception o~ perhaps, France. The Canadian Ambassador t.o the Law of the Sea Conference in Geneva, Alan Beasley, made a statement where he said that the power of control should be in the hands of the coastal state. Now I am 2933

June 16, 1982 Tape No . 1383 r-1R . HEARN : sure that is something that Newfoundland has been saying quite often,when we realize that we have so little power over our own fishery. Mr. Beasley, by the way, made that statement on a film on the Norma and Gladys,and I am surprised that all the hon. members have not seen such an interesting and entertaining and informative film . I am wondering what is happening to the C1.tlture of our great Province. The resolution at hand to a certain point is good and I fully support it .

The first two parts where it says, 'WHEREAS the fishery is the main thread of Newfoundland's Social , Cultural and economic fabric ', and I wholeheartedly agree, 'AN D tYHEREAS both the inshore and offshore sectors of the provincial fishery are in a state of crisis,' fishery everywhere, of cocrse, is ~n a state of crisis . But then it goes on to say and here is where we start '· disagreeing, 1 \~HEREAS there is no coherent or cohesive ? 9 31~ so - 2

June 16, 1982 Tape No. 1384 IB-1 MR. HEARN: policy being pursued by the present provincial government and;

WHEREAS it seems that the present provincial government has neither the desire nor the ability to develop long-term strategies