April 6, 1995

RESOURCE ESTIMATES

COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the Legislative

Chamber of the Colonial Building.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Smith): Order, please!

I will now call the meeting to order and first of

all have the members of the Committee introduce themselves.

My name is Gerald Smith, I am the MHA for Port au

Port and Chairman of the Committee.

MR. WOODFORD: Rick Woodford, MHA, Humber

Valley.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Rick is Vice-Chairman.

MR. WHELAN: Donald Whelan, MHA, Harbour Main.

MR. PENNEY: Melvin Penney, MHA, Lewisporte.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Now, Minister, I ask you to

introduce the members of your staff here with you this evening.

DR. GIBBONS: Okay, I have with me, on my left,

Hal Stanley, Deputy Minister and to his left, Martin Sheppard, Assistant Deputy

for Energy; on my immediate right, Barbara Wakeham, Assistant Deputy for Support

Services and Lands; next to Barbara is Paul Dean, Assistant Deputy for Mines and

next to Paul is Len Clarke, our Director of Financial Operations; I am not sure

that is the exact title Len, but it is close; and we are missing Dr. Nazir, the

Assistant Deputy for Forestry and Wildlife. At lunchtime, Dr. Nazir had to go

home with the 'flu but he is hoping that he will be here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Minister.

Just to briefly outline the way the proceedings

will run here this evening: you will be given the opportunity to make an opening

statement, you are allowed a period of fifteen minutes if you so desire and - I

think Dr. Nazir is here now.

If, on any of the questions, you defer to members

of your staff, I ask that they first of all identify themselves before speaking

so that it will be properly recorded. As you see, these proceedings are being

recorded this evening. After that, Mr. Woodford will have fifteen minutes to

make a statement or to question and then, for each other person after that, it

will be ten minutes.

Mr. Minister, over to you.

DR. GIBBONS: Thank you very much.

I note now, Dr. Nazir has arrived, and I know he

has the 'flu, so we will keep over on the left corner here.

Mr. Chairman, we are pleased to appear before you

this evening. This is the first time that I have appeared as the Minister of the

new Department of Natural Resources, in addition to my former responsibilities

for Mines and Energy matters, we now have as well, the responsibility for land,

wildlife and forestry. I think that covers it, doesn't it?

AN OFFICIAL: Inland fisheries.

DR. GIBBONS: And Inland fisheries as well, as a

growing future responsibility, and we have a little bit of that that is our way

right now.

I have in front of me, a document that is

thirty-three pages long, and last night, when I read it for the first time, I

think it was about forty-six. I discussed this earlier and the thought was that,

maybe I shouldn't read it all into the record because that would keep us

probably for an hour. What I can do, is, quickly go through it and it will be

available here and I guess it could be available to be part of the Hansard. Is

that the way it would be if I deposit a copy?

MR. CHAIRMAN: If that is your wish.

DR. GIBBONS: I just want to touch on some of

the highlights of this new department that we have brought together in the last

six months.

The new division, in this department, of Lands

Management, all aspects of lands including the management of ATV regulations,

that was transferred to the department about three months after the department

was formed, transferred to us from the Environment department, and all other

aspects of the Lands Management Division including surveys and mapping etcetera.

I won't get into great detail, as we can get into some detail in discussion of

that particular

section later; enough to say, the Lands branch has allocated

$3.7 million of the total Budget of the department, about $3.7 million, and this

year we are expecting about $2.6 million in revenue from the various lease

payments etcetera, in lands.

The second part that I have in the notes covers the

mineral industry, and before I get into describing the structure of the

department relative to the mineral industry, I will say just a few words about

the industry itself. In the last year the industry has really turned around.

Back about two years ago we hit rock-bottom in terms of the value of production,

and the number of dollars being spent on mineral exploration. In 1993 we were

down to a little over $8 million being spent annually on mineral exploration

from about $40 million back in 1988, so we really went down rock-bottom, but in

the last year we started to turn around and in 1994, came back nicely.

In the value of mineral production, as an example,

we increased by $136 million last year over 1993. We had an increase of 19 per

cent in one year, so we started to climb back. As we go into 1995, looking

forward, we are now forecasting a further increase this year of another $95

million which is approximately an 11 per cent increase in 1995 over 1994, so the

value of production in the industry is going to continue to grow. We are

forecasting now that we will probably reach about $930 million this year, and it

could be higher than that, depending on what further things may happen with

price. The iron ore sector is going flat out compared to some previous years and

they can sell every ounce they can produce - Mineral exploration likewise.

Last year we came back to about $12.5 million from

$8.5 million the year before, and now as we go into 1995 we are forecasting

probably a doubling in value in 1995, from about $12.5 million to about $25

million. Of course, a lot of this is tied to the big mineral discovery in

Labrador, the Voisey's Bay nickel/cobalt/copper discovery. That was announced

around the end of October or around the first of November and since that time I

think we have about 48,000 mineral claims staked, new mineral claims. I haven't

heard the final figure today - Paul?

There were about 48,000 mineral claims in the last

six months, since the first of November, and that number of claims alone

reflects the requirement to spend at least $10 million in grassroots exploration

for first year work. That doesn't count the advanced exploration that will be

done in terms of drilling and so on, on advanced projects, so we have a lot of

excitement this year in the exploration sector, particularly all over Labrador

and particularly focusing on Nain and the regions west, south and north of Nain.

There is going to be a lot of action.

On the Island there are good things happening as

well. Up on the Baie Verte Peninsula we have the Nugget Pond project which we

expect to be in production before the end of this year. There is a possibility

that the Rambler deposit may be getting back into production before the end of

this year. Over near Springdale, a project called Hammerdown, a gold project,

the company is talking about going underground this year, 1995, and that, I

believe, will also become a mine in the near future. And an antimony deposit

south of Bishop's Falls on the Northwest Gander River, an announcement came out

on this one only about a month ago, about a million tons, which we translate

into being about a ten-year mine for antimony. I don't believe there is another

operating antimony mine in Canada right now. This project will have underground

exploration this year and that is going to become a mine in the near future.

There is also activity at St. Lawrence. A company has taken an option on the St.

Lawrence fluorspar property and it is presently going through a feasibility

study. We gave them an option which expires next April and we hope that between

now and then they make a decision to go forward.

With all that excitement in the field, in the

industry, we are still going to continue to do some of our programs through our

geological survey. Our mineral lands people are busier than they have ever been

before and in total, in the mines branch, we expect to spend about $6.8 million

this year on all aspects of our programs.

In the Energy branch, of course, the key thing is

what is happening with Hibernia. Hibernia is going very nicely. A few days ago,

I believe it was on Friday of last week, the company put out an announcement

that the M-20 super module being built at Bull Arm was completed. They had

signed a certificate of completion of the M-20 and delivered it to the company

that was doing the construction, Passb, a real milestone. That one was completed

before any other super module being built elsewhere in the world - two are being

built in Italy and two in Korea. So things are going very well at Hibernia right

now and as we look forward to other milestones over the next year or so, between

now and July we will have four super modules arrive from Korea and Italy, to be

put together with the one just completed out at Bull Arm. Drilling modules will

be delivered to the site, other components will be completed. Between now and

next April - twelve months - there will be two supply boats completed at the

Marystown Shipyard. One is due to be completed by January, one by April, and as

we get into 1996, if everything stays on schedule, Hibernia by the end of 1996

will basically be completed, waiting for mating and waiting for tow-out in July

of 1997, and first oil in December, 1997.

We have some other things happening in oil. We are

having discussions on the Terra Nova project. They have been ongoing now for a

few months. They are ongoing this week, continuing, and we hope that some time

this year we get a decision on a development plan for Terra Nova, and maybe -

possibly - even the submission of a development plan, but first and foremost we

would like to see a decision on the submission of a development plan.

We have a land sale going on in the offshore,

announced recently - closes in September. Of course, the other area of oil and

gas, what is happening in Western Newfoundland, onshore - Hunt Oil spudded a

well last September - September 18 - on the Port au Port, at Garden Hill. They

have continued to drill and operate that well. Right now, we are expecting that

they will still be working on it for a few more weeks, but they are getting

close to completion.

We are looking forward to the results of this, and

what comes next. Is this company going to do another well onshore or off? They

are struggling with that decision right now because they do have some offshore

licences which expire next January 15, and they must be diligently pursuing a

well by that date or else the offshore licences expire. So they have some

serious decisions ahead of them, and based on what they find, they have to make

that serious decision relative to a future well in their offshore lands, so I am

hoping we get some positive decisions.

There are other things I could talk about in

energy, but I will keep moving right now instead of getting into further detail.

Maybe I should mention the budget. I don't see the

summary budget figure there,

so I will keep moving on into the Forestry and Wildlife sector, starting first

with forestry.

This year, 1995, is the first year that we are

going to see our paper mills in the black for at least, I think, five years, Dr.

Nazir? At least five years. The forestry sector also has turned a corner in the

last few months. The prices have increased substantially. Since last March, a

year ago, the price of newsprint has increased by 40 per cent. A year ago we

would never have believed that was going to happen, and the company, certainly,

a year ago did not expect that to happen. We all know what they were going

through a year ago in terms of their labour relations. But something happened in

the international markets and the price has just continued to climb, and we

expect further increases this year, so the paper mills should do well - but not

only paper.

Two years ago, in our lumber sector, we broke 50

million board feet for the first time since 1954. It took thirty-nine years to

break 50 million board feet again. We went better than 55 million in 1994, and

this year, 1995, we are expecting to reach maybe 60 million board feet, so even

that sector is going well, but within limits.

Not everything is perfect in forestry. I want to

mention, in particular, one item that has been in the news recently - that's our

insect infestation. We have been very fortunate in the last few years. For the

last five years we have primarily had budworm, very low levels of budworm

infestation, not very significant at all, but the budworm. This past year, was a

gorgeous summer and the hemlock looper must have loved the weather as well as

the rest of us did because when the egg counts were made this Fall in the

sampling that was done, we found a significant increase in infestation of the

hemlock looper right through the heart of Newfoundland - right from Grand Falls

down to Stephenville and from the Codroy Valley up through to Gros Morne, right

through the heart of our paper mill country, a major increase in infestation.

Last year, we had to spray about 10,000 hectares

and this year our people are telling us that over 200,000 hectares are

significantly infested and over 100,000 is moderately to severely infested.

Moderate infestation is ten or twelve eggs per branch sample. This year in the

sampling that was done we have had many samples that have gone beyond 300 and we

have had some gone beyond 500 in egg counts per sample. So we have a significant

increase in infestation and we are addressing that.

In the next little while we have to decide how we

are going to attack it in terms of our spray program. We are dealing with that

now in terms of finalizing the boundaries of the areas that are infested to

determine just what we need to spray and we are going to be finalizing and

announcing a decision shortly on how we are going to do that. Because we have

short opportunity to get the logistics in place and we have to do the spraying

in the second half of June and in early July.

That summarizes the forestry side. Wildlife: There

are some things happening in wildlife. Of course, it is a great concern to make

sure that our wildlife species are managed properly. And because of concerns

about the lack of adequately counting the number of moose and the number of

caribou on the Island, in particular, over the last many years when only one or

two or three areas might be counted, we made a decision a few months ago to put

money in for a major count of our big game over a three-year period, starting in

the past fiscal year and going into this fiscal year and the next one. In this

past fiscal year, we counted ten moose areas and two caribou areas and we are

going to do ten of fifteen areas next year and the rest the year after. So we

are making good progress in that, with a $1.8 million budget, for example, for

the major big game count. Otherwise, there is enforcement in wildlife and

various other related matters that we can talk about when we get into questions.

One subject I want to touch on in particular is the

George River caribou herd. We have had to pay some particular attention to this

one because of concerns raised about some hunting practices in the area. We have

just completed, I have it in my brief case right now, what we call a discussion

paper on hunting practices in Labrador for the George River caribou herd and we

are expecting to make that public in the next few days. We would then be

starting a process of consultation with Mr. Whalen, who is legislative advisor

to me in the department, chairing a committee to make the rounds of Labrador

communities to have some discussions on the George River caribou herd.

Altogether, the Forestry and Wildlife branch of the department has a budget of

$35 million to carry out its numerous projects.

Mr. Chairman, that covers my introductory remarks,

I could have gotten into much more detail, but it's all here. Mr. Stanley is

bringing to my attention, on the forestry side in particular, one thing I

forgot, we did have a federal-provincial forestry agreement for the last five

years; it expired last week on March 31 and normally we were spending about $12

million federal-provincial money per year. With this agreement expiring, we made

a budget decision provincially to put in $10 million to replace that this year.

When we get into the details of the budget, you can see that we have effectively

replaced the forestry agreement money with provincial dollars.

Thanks very much. I open it to whatever questions

you may have.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Minister.

Before we start the questioning, I would just like

to welcome Mr. Shelley. For the record, Paul, I ask if you would introduce

yourself.

MR. SHELLEY: Paul Shelley, MHA for Baie Verte -

White Bay.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Paul.

Okay, Mr. Woodford.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like, if I may, afterwards, Minister, to

have a copy of your opening statement as soon as possible.

DR. GIBBONS: Sure can.

MR. WOODFORD: If not after the meeting, then

sometime in the House in the next week or so.

DR. GIBBONS: Sure, you are welcome.

MR. WOODFORD: A couple of questions as it

pertains to the mining sector. What about Goose Arm? Is there anything new on

that marble find in there now in Goose Arm in my particular area?

DR. GIBBONS: There is not a lot happening on it

right now.

MR. WOODFORD: No.

DR. GIBBONS: It is a nice deposit with a

variety of colours. I'm going to ask Paul Dean, the ADM of Mines, to see if he

is more up-to-date on it than I am because I have not heard anything on it

recently myself.

MR. DEANS: No, Mr. Woodford, there is not much

new to report. The deposit is still held by Tiara Marble which is a

Newfoundland-based company. There was a fair amount of drilling and evaluation

of the deposit done really in late 1993. Some of those reports from the

consultants and so on were coming forward in 1994. Really, not very much has

happened with that particular deposit during 1994. I know that the principals of

the company are interested in bringing it forward but haven't had the financial

resources to devote to it in recent months.

MR. WOODFORD: What about the Glover Island

drilling, anything new on that?

DR. GIBBONS: Paul.

MR. DEAN: There was some drilling done this

past summer again on Glover Island, some of which was encouraging. In general,

there is a fair amount of gold in several different prospects on Glover Island

but not yet enough, in enough grades or tonnage to say there is an economic

deposit. Our view in the department is that more drilling is required to

evaluate all the resources on Glover Island.

MR. WOODFORD: Minister, you mentioned the

Voisey's Bay find down there. I was just reading an

article - I think it was in

yesterday's paper, or the day before - about some aerial surveys done now that

have gone somewhere from three kilometres up to approximately seven kilometres

in length, the possible length of that deposit. What do you expect to see there

this year? More claims staked? The claims that are staked worked? To what extent

do you see any activity there this year?

DR. GIBBONS: Labrador is going to be crawling

with prospectors this year. Voisey's Bay is a really intriguing story. Voisey's

Bay was discovered by two prospectors. About six years ago, a young man named

Albert Chislett was given the first $5,000 prospector's grant by the Minister of

Mines at the time, Jerome Dinn. He got our first prospector's grant. He was into

construction out in the Goulds at the time and he gradually started to get into

prospecting, and over the last few years more and more into prospecting. Mr.

Chislett and his partner, Chris Verbiski out of Buchans, another prospector -

MR. WOODFORD: Oh yes, I know him very well,

Mort's son.

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, Mort Verbiski's son. These

two guys, looking for prospects in Newfoundland and Labrador, noting all the

excitement about diamonds in the Northwest Territories a few years ago, said:

There must be some rocks in Labrador that may have diamonds, there must be, like

the rocks in the Territories. They went and staked some rocks in Labrador that

are similar to rocks in the Northwest Territories. They went up there doing some

prospecting back in 1993.

They found some rusty rocks - they didn't find

diamonds, yet - but they found some rusty rocks. It turned out to be nickel.

When they went back up there last year they did some geophysics on the target

and came back, and said to Diamond Fields, with whom they had an option

agreement: We think we should do some drilling on this. Diamond Fields gave them

some backing to drill four holes. They struck immediately, right near the

surface, massive sulphide and the rest is basically history.

Voisey's Bay has turned into what we are now

saying, and the world is now saying, in the mineral sector, one of the most

significant mineral discoveries in North America in recent history. At this

time, they have said publicly, they have 30 million to 35 million tons of good

grade nickel, cobalt and copper. In the announcement that you, Mr. Vice-Chair,

just referred to that was put out earlier this week, the company has completed

an aeromagnetic survey and the three kilometre zone is now seven, so they need

to continue to drill to see just how big it is. They need to drill it off, then

they need to get an average grade over all of it, so in the months ahead we are

going to see, I believe, a lot of drilling in that area.

Apart from that, outside of that area, we are going

to see a lot of people looking for rusty rocks and other prospects.

MR. WOODFORD: The way it seems to me now, from

the discussions and the talk I've heard on it, there is a real possibility that

if it is developed it will be an open pit mine. Am I right?

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, it is right on the surface.

MR. WOODFORD: Right on the surface.

DR. GIBBONS: But the way it is now you can see

that it could be an open pit mine initially, and as they do more drilling it is

possible that some parts of it would have to be done as an underground mine. We

don't know yet. We need to see the more extensive drilling. Certainly, when you

go right through the gravel and immediately into the massive sulphide and the

orientation structure, it is certainly open pittable. It has all the prospects

to be a mine that will last a generation. It is like Buchans when Buchans was

found in 1905 and lasted until, what was it, 1970-something? I don't remember.

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible) late -

DR. GIBBONS: It's the most exciting thing we've

had happen in my lifetime as a geologist in Newfoundland.

MR. WOODFORD: I would say there are a lot of

base metals there - a little bit of gold in the mine, too, I would say.

DR. GIBBONS: In the Voisey's Bay case, we are

talking nickel, cobalt and copper.

MR. WOODFORD: That is it? Those are the three

identified?

DR. GIBBONS: Nickel, cobalt and copper.

MR. WOODFORD: In the Buchans one there was gold

- in fact, the company used to always pay their overhead with it.

DR. GIBBONS: That was copper, lead, zinc, gold,

silver, a different type of mine.

MR. WOODFORD: Copper, lead, zinc, silver, yes.

Well, it is interesting.

Forestry: I notice in the estimate, the head

4.1.11, Corner Brook Pulp and Paper Ltd. (Statutory), under Property,

Furnishings and Equipment, there was nothing budgeted for last year, and I can

understand that if it is - this, I would say, refers to the $15 million for the

land acquisition?

DR. GIBBONS: There is a -

MR. WOODFORD: Page 148 of the Estimates.

DR. GIBBONS: Page 148, 4.1.11. That is the

money for the Kruger lands, yes. Initially, we were going to make one payment in

the last fiscal year and make the other payment by June coming, a month from

now. We decided, because of our Budget situation, that we could make the full

payment by the end of the fiscal year. You notice there we get $100,000 revenue.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, I know.

DR. GIBBONS: We got a discount for the interest

that would have been accumulated. So we paid for it all.

MR. WOODFORD: So really, they got the $15

million in one year.

DR. GIBBONS: They got it all now. Instead of

having to wait two months to get the second payment they have it all now. But

they discounted that second payment by the $100,000 which would have been the

interest equivalent.

MR. WOODFORD: What about the documentation of

the released properties now? How has that proceeded, with regard to release of

properties for Crown land?

DR. GIBBONS: I will ask Ms. Wakeham, who is

responsible for Crown Lands, the ADM, to come and answer, tell us where that is

right now. I know they've been working on it diligently because there are a

great number of properties and a great lot of documentation. She can up-date us.

MS. WAKEHAM: We have approximately 6,000 files

that have been transferred as a result of the transfer of the lands with Kruger.

We are microfilming all those files at the moment. We are hoping to have them

completed - probably some time in May all the documentation will be completed.

We have as a priority any commercial properties that have to change their

tenure. We have been dealing with them on a case-by-case basis as they are

coming through.

With respect to the cottage developments that were

there and had been registered with Kruger prior to the conveyance to the

Province, those, we have now sent letters to all 573 people and have provided

them with permitting documents. And they are in the process now of coming

through, so they should all be cleaned up I would expect, probably by May as

well.

DR. GIBBONS: After that date we should be ready

to start.

MS. WAKEHAM: We essentially asked for six

months from November so that we could be able to integrate all of the

information into the lands titling system and to allow us to go and do the

change-over in terms of the tenures into Crown land. So we expect it will be in

good shape then to open it up for applications from the end of May.

MR. WOODFORD: So, this summer then, the Crown

should be accepting applications for anything in those particular areas.

MS. WAKEHAM: Yes.

MR. WOODFORD: Well, I must say that I had a few

problems, as I stated in the House when we were dealing with that particular

legislation, with respect to residents in my area who had problems in obtaining

a title to their properties. And I must say to Barbara, it was straightened up

in conjunction with Don Windsor on the West Coast and so on; so we have the

three residential properties, I must say, straightened up fairly quickly.

I ran into a problem afterwards - and I might as

well bring it up now, I think you are aware of it - especially with one property

that we didn't expect to come up. It had to do with the actual signing of the

debenture for this particular money with Kruger; it was one property, I don't

know if you can recall it or not. I am wondering if that was just straightened

up for that particular person or - apparently, it was a problem with the banks

and the people with whom they signed the agreement.

MS. WAKEHAM: There are two things that happened

with respect to the Kruger properties. In the first case, when the agreement was

signed, there were a number of properties where the transactions had been

completed and with respect to those properties, they had all been listed in

Schedule A attached to the actual conveyance; and two of the cases that you

brought to my attention were actually listed in the Schedules so we solved that

without any problem.

In the third case, the property had not finalized

the transactions prior to November 28 and the land reverted to the Crown. In the

urban areas, what had happened was that all the land Kruger had was underwritten

by the banks, so there was a mortgage on that. And the requirement would have

been, in order to finalize that, to get a release of that mortgage from the

bankers themselves and, in the past, that had been done on a quarterly basis and

Corner Brook Pulp and Paper themselves were bringing the things back, doing the

releases of the mortgages so the houses could be sold. And what we have done

right now - I have talked to Doug Kendricks at Corner Brook Pulp and Paper and

we have asked the solicitors to bring forward any requests of that nature to

Corner Brook Pulp and Paper so they could still take the action.

MR. WOODFORD: I must say, they are acting a lot

more expeditiously now than they did before. I don't know if you have a certain

characteristic that someone else didn't have, but Doug Kendricks' crew weren't

too easy, they didn't move it along too quickly before, previous to this

legislation, believe you me, even though it was done on a quarterly basis,

because I had all kinds of cases of them.

MS. WAKEHAM: I haven't had any problems with

Mr. Kendricks since.

MR. WOODFORD: That's great.

On the access roads, I notice that last year you

budgeted $1.8 million and you spent $2.4, which is wonderful, I wouldn't have

complained if you had it up to $4 million, to tell you the truth, because as far

as I am concerned, some of the money that is being spent on access roads, the

ones I know about anyway, has benefited and is one of the reasons why you had an

increase, I think, in the total lumber production and board feet of lumber this

year - and it is going to be bigger next year. You said it is going to 60

million board feet.

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, we think it may go to 60

million.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, I think it may go to that,

for sure, and more because I know that one operator in my area has 1.3 million

board feet of logs on the ground now, and that to him is about a 50 or 60 per

cent increase already on the ground, and ready to go to the mill.

But, in any case, what about the - now, I know this

year you have budgeted $1.8 million again, the same thing. Tenders, for that - I

think last year when I talked to you, Minister, you said that you were going to

try to get tenders for those access roads out early, in January or February,

because there is always a problem in late Summer and into the Fall with people

at those roads when it is messy, snowy, frost in the ground, and so on. Is there

any indication that tenders will be out in the near future?

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, it won't take very long. I

have already seen the prioritized list, myself, that our people have put

together, and we have our budget right now. I am not sure of the exact timing. I

could ask Dr. Nazir when he expects the tender call to be made, but we have no

reason for any delay.

DR. NAZIR: (Inaudible) the contractors are able

to inspect the site so that they can bid properly. A number of tenders are, in

fact, ready but we want to delay it a little bit so that they are able to

inspect the site a little bit.

MR. WOODFORD: This is one of the problems they

have every year, that of the tenders coming out early enough in the Fall so that

they would be able to bid, and when the snow goes they would be able to start

construction, but I guess you didn't get that done this year. Is there going to

be an extension to Bridgers Pond, the White River Road area and Chouse Brook?

DR. NAZIR: Yes. Bridgers Pond is in, and Chouse

Brook I am not sure. I will have to check the list here.

DR. GIBBONS: It looks like number eleven on the

priority list, and Bridgers Pond looks like number four on the priority list, so

I would expect that both of those would be on the program.

MR. WOODFORD: Two actual projects, I must say -

well, really, for the community of Hampden it is the lifeblood. There is almost

nothing else there, and that is where the Chouse Brook is located, and the

Bridgers Pond - White River Road one is the lifeblood for the Cormack area,

Reidville, and parts of Deer Lake, for both pulp wood production, and lumber,

but where you have the first call on saw logs I think is a big plus and

something that should be followed up, especially in those areas where this would

benefit, because there are people there working all this winter, just cutting

the logs, bringing them to the mill, and those particular people, the sawmill

operators are paying the loggers. It is a good, excellent program and I think it

should be kept up.

Wildlife, you mentioned the study that was done.

You did ten or twelve areas this year?

DR. GIBBONS: We have completed ten moose areas

and two caribou areas this past year and we are going to do another ten to

fifteen in the year ahead, depending on weather. It will probably end up around

the same as 1994-'95.

MR. WOODFORD: You probably won't give me all

the information, but what does it look like now, overall?

DR. GIBBONS: Well, there are ups and there are

downs. The staff are getting the details together right now and we are hoping

they will have all the details together within the next month, I would think -

Dr. Nazir? because if we need to make any adjustments we have to make them

before the draw is done, and the draw is normally done by the middle of May,

late May, so there is a real push on to compile all the statistics from last

year's count, just in case we need to make any adjustments.

MR. WOODFORD: With those particular areas?

DR. GIBBONS: With those ten areas, plus two

caribou areas that have been done, yes.

MR. WOODFORD: So, if any of those areas are

down there will be an adjustment made on the number of licenses issued to that

particular area?

DR. GIBBONS: It is possible, yes. It is

possible they could have adjustments down and adjustments up, based on the

count, and this is what we have told the public. We are doing this big count and

in the guide that was mailed to hunters we said, `We warn you now, if there is a

serious problem with an area we will have to make an adjustment downwards. If,

on the other hand, we see a significant increase in some areas we could make

changes the other way as well.' We hope, in the next few weeks, to have all the

statistics ready so that we can make these decisions.

MR. WOODFORD: Will the outfitters, if they

happen to be in those areas, be adjusted?

DR. GIBBONS: Well, again, it depends on how

significant the adjustments are, because right now we have a guideline in place

that we give outfitters no more than 10 per cent of the total number of licences

that are issued, so if there is an increase in the total number of licences,

then automatically there would be an increase for outfitters. Unless we change

that policy, there wouldn't be, so right now we haven't made any change in

policy.

MR. WOODFORD: Because there was some adjustment

made last year to the outfitters. I know there was one about the outfitters,

that licences they didn't use reverted. That was, as far as I am concerned, a

good thing. I don't know how that went over with the outfitters.

DR. GIBBONS: It worked very well and last year,

I think, for the first time, or one of the few times, we used up all the

licences because we did redirect to people who could use them -

MR. WOODFORD: Exactly.

DR. GIBBONS: - from people who were not using

them. I think, for the first time, a year ago we had the full 10 per cent used

by outfitters, and they are bumping that ceiling again now this year. They are

coming in and saying: We can use more if we can get them.

MR. WOODFORD: That's good.

I have to get back to forestry again, for one

question I missed. I am after having quite a few requests from loggers in the

Hampden area specifically who primarily cut for Abitibi-Price. They are cutting

in the Chain Lakes area. Abitibi has very little wood left there. In fact, they

may finish it this summer. I think there is only about 3,000 or 3,500 cubic

metres left there. They have made some requests to Kruger - I think Kevin has

probably been talking to you about it - to access some of what they call

over-mature timber in that particular area that Kruger is not harvesting. Is

there anything new on that, or anything you can do on it besides - I know the

first thing they are going to say, Kruger is going to say, well, we need more

land; if you offer us something we will give you something.

DR. GIBBONS: I don't have the answer on that.

Although it has been raised with me, it slips my mind right now. Dr. Nazir?

DR. NAZIR: We had checked with both companies,

Abitibi-Price as well as Kruger. Kruger have indicated that they plan to harvest

that area, and they have no intention of leaving it unharvested, so if the area

is not surplus to their needs they don't intend to release it for Abitibi-Price.

So Abitibi has only that area which was with the Crown and which was already

turned over to them.

Abitibi has been advised of the situation. The

paper union had also raised this issue. We approach Kruger, and Kruger's

response was that it is fairly close to their mill.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes.

DR. NAZIR: And it is a low-cost wood,

therefore, they want to harvest themselves.

MR. WOODFORD: So Kruger is going to harvest it

themselves?

DR. NAZIR: Yes.

MR. WOODFORD: That is the bottom line.

DR. NAZIR: So far, that is the position they

have taken.

MR. WOODFORD: It will be interesting to see,

now, when Kruger is going to harvest it.

DR. NAZIR: Now, if they don't take that

position and they don't harvest it, and the area is beginning to fall down, then

certainly the department will step in again and ask them to either harvest it or

lease it.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, because the department would

have some control there, to a certain extent, because is it still so that your

department has to approve their annual allowable cut?

DR. NAZIR: Yes.

MR. WOODFORD: So it still has to come to you

for approval. You could probably tell them, that particular area should be

harvested.

What happens in those cases, especially when it is

close like that, is it creates a lot of friction. Here are loggers, thirty-five

or forty loggers, looking for work, and there is all kinds of timber there but

it belongs to another company. They can't understand why it couldn't be cut for

Abitibi-Price.

Anyway, there are discussions on the go now and it

is nice to be able to hear that at least they are going to harvest it; that

takes the pressure off everybody.

DR. GIBBONS: It certainly was a hot issue with

the loggers' union. It came (inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: Oh, yes, in fact, they are

probably in this week to see you again, are they? Were they in or on the way or

something?

DR. GIBBONS: Not this week. A couple of weeks

ago.

MR. WOODFORD: Well, I won't take any more time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr. Woodford, thank you

Minister.

Mr. Penney.

MR. PENNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, I only have a couple of very general

questions, but before I put them to you, I wonder if we could look at a couple

of the figures in the Estimates.

First, 2.1.06, page 137. There is a significant

difference in the figures for 1995-1996 compared to the previous year for

Geological Survey, from $92,000 up to $485,000. I think the bulk of that is in

.01, .02 and .03. Could you explain it, please?

DR. GIBBONS: This particular one, 2.1.06, you

will notice it is called Geological Survey - MDAII. A few months ago we signed a

one-year extension to our mineral development agreement with Ottawa, so we have

some extra money in there because of a one-year extension to our mineral

development agreement. Therefore, we are going to be able to carry on some extra

programs this year. That is where that money comes from - extra field programs.

There are some significant field programs, one, in particular, in Labrador, in

what we call the Kanairiktok belt, and another one in the Buchans - Robert's Arm

belt on the Island. Two big multi-disciplinary programs are going to be done

under that looking basically at mineral potential.

MR. PENNEY: So some of that money you are

talking about, coming in from the Federal Government, is actually shown in the

revised 1994-1995 figures, $338,000.

DR. GIBBONS: We had - I'm not sure what the

explanation is for that one. Paul?

MR. DEAN: The one-year extension to the

agreement the minister mentioned was actually signed in July, I believe, of

1994, so at the time when last year's Estimates were approved, we didn't know

whether we were going to get the agreement or not. The agreement was signed in

July. That enabled us to enter into contracts with the Federal Government, to

contract some of their funds to the Province in order for us to start field

programs in 1994, which we did in the case of the Buchans - Robert's Arm

project.

MR. PENNEY: So the federal revenue is actually

$338,700 plus $284,000.

MR. DEAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR. PENNEY: Okay, 4.1.03, page 146, Forest

Management. We are looking at again a significant increase from $689,000 to over

$3 million. Obviously, the answer has to be the revenue line. Last year, we had

a revenue from the Federal Government of over $2 million. This year it is down

to $228,000. Could you just elaborate a little bit, please?

DR. GIBBONS: Well that is -

MR. PENNEY: That is the one you referred to

earlier.

DR. GIBBONS: That is the magic $10 million.

MR. PENNEY: That is it, okay.

DR. GIBBONS: Alright? That is one of the areas

where the provincial money is starting to show up. The revenue for last year was

from our federal forestry agreement. This year, all that money is on a

provincial line because $10 million from the Province is partly going into that

category, and part of it, another significant amount of it, is going right

across on the other page on the top, 4.1.05, under Silviculture.

MR. PENNEY: Yes.

DR. GIBBONS: You see a similar thing over

there. We have a significant increase.

MR. PENNEY: Yes.

DR. GIBBONS: Alright. These are a couple of

units where we are reflecting the $10 million provincial money now replacing the

federal money in the forestry agreement.

MR. PENNEY: Okay, 6.1.05 - I think you have

already answered this. Mr. Woodford asked you questions about it. I think he saw

my list of questions there before he asked you about the moose and caribou

counts. The Wildlife Monitoring last year was $638,000, this year we are looking

at $1.2 million. You said that last year you did twelve areas - ten moose, two

caribou and in 1995-1996 you expect to do ten to fifteen more. So, the number of

areas that you will be doing the counts on should be basically the same last

year and this year?

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, about the same.

MR. PENNEY: Why would the budgeted figures have

been doubled this year compared to last year?

DR. GIBBONS: Again, the money -

DR. NAZIR: The moose survey is in the next one.

DR. GIBBONS: The moose survey is in the next

one, is it?

DR. NAZIR: Yes, 6.1.06.

DR. GIBBONS: 6.1.06, has the moose survey.

MR. PENNEY: Okay, 6.1.05, is ptarmigan and

caribou and other species.

DR. GIBBONS: This is where we get leverage

money that is coming out of various other organizations. We put in a little bit

and we get money out of a number of other organizations. We have a list here two

pages long of other types of wildlife organizations that we have involvements

with; so that for a little bit of provincial money, we get money from Ducks

Unlimited and various other organizations, nationally and internationally and

provincially that get involved with us, and that's where you got all this

revenue coming in. We have everything here: Migratory Birds, Trapper Education,

Model Forests; federal money is shown under Model Forest, for example, Terra

Nova National Park, NAWMP - I am not sure what that stands for, EHJV - Eastern

Habitat Joint Venture. There are a number of stewardship agreements, I know I

have to sign one in Stephenville Crossing next Monday night - a stewardship

agreement for the water problem in that area. So we have a page-and-a-half of

that type of activity, where we leverage money from other organizations, and it

varies from year to year.

MR. PENNEY: Just one other question, and it

pertains to the CN land. We have had an ongoing problem in a number of

communities for some three or four years. Lewisporte would probably be on the

top of the list of communities that have been in to, whichever department was

looking after it at the time. I tell Ms. Wakeham, I can remember seeing

delegates from Lewisporte on at least four occasions. It has been a major

problem out there because we discovered two years ago that there were dozens and

dozens of residential houses built on what they thought was their land, only to

discover that they didn't own the land at all, three generations later, I am

assuming from what I have been hearing lately that the problem has been

rectified. Could you confirm that for me, that that is no longer a problem, that

it has, for all intents and purposes, been put to bed.

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, I believe so, because we made

a decision as a government, just a few months ago, that we were going to

dedicate the main line, as a Linear Park, and a few days ago, the minister of

Tourism announced that, as a Linear Park, but at the same time we made the

decision that branch lines would now come back to Natural Resources, Crown Lands

Division for management at Crown Lands. So again, we are looking at all the

conflicts that are out there, we are doing all the documentation on it, but we

will be managing the branch lines at Crown Lands.

I could ask Ms. Wakeham again to speak to the

details of where that sits right now. I am familiar with the Lewisporte

question, but we do have about 5,000 or more conflicts that have to be rectified

in the next few months. So this is another example similar to the Kruger lands,

where we have to address situations where people have built cabins, gardens,

houses, roads, etcetera, on former railroad land.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Wakeham.

MS. WAKEHAM: I met with Mayor Betty Clarke, the

deputy mayor, the town manager and one of the councillors on Monday. I was able

to tell them then - because we have most of the land surveyed there, and we had

the diagrams - that we are sending documentation to each of the individuals now

who have been listed and are encroaching on the land and are providing them with

the procedures to get title to those lands. In some cases where the

construction, even though it was on CN land which has now come back to the

Province, if in fact they constructed the houses before 1957, under normal

policy within government at the moment, twenty-year possession under the new

lands' act, they can receive a grant of land. For those houses constructed prior

to that, what we will do is we will apply a pro rate to the portion of land that

is outside. Because what has happened is that not all of the property is

actually on the land that has come back. So we have portions of land that is -

and it goes like in kinds of squiggle ways in terms of the diagrams. We are very

familiar with each of the specific people who are affected by the lands.

MR. PENNEY: How many of them are there, do you

remember?

MS. WAKEHAM: We counted forty-nine that are in

Lewisporte. We also did a survey in Lewisporte on encroachments, illegal

occupation, and a sample showed 123 illegal occupations as well. That is not

necessarily all CN land, so we have to deal with that as well. Lewisporte is not

the only place where that has occurred. We figure there are somewhere around

5,000 illegal encroachments on the CN properties at this moment that we have to

deal with in some way.

We have all the letters drafted for everyone, and

we are going through all the facilities and all the requests and everything that

came in. We were not in a position until there was a public announcement made

with respect to the linear park in order for us to be able to go out to the

people who were on the branch lines, because that would have undermined the

decision with respect to the linear park itself. We have all the preparatory

work done. It is a matter now of moving it along and hopefully clearing it up

within as quick a possible time as we can.

MR. PENNEY: Mayor Clarke and her delegation

were pleased with the information you gave them when they were here on Monday?

They were satisfied with that?

MS. WAKEHAM: Well, they told me it was the best

meeting they've had in three years, so I guess they were pleased.

MR. PENNEY: Excellent.

DR. GIBBONS: New department.

MR. PENNEY: Mr. Minister, that was the best

meeting they had had up until that time. They were here all the next day.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

Before we move on, I would just point out that

there is coffee and tea available. We will not break for a coffee break unless

this process proves to be a little more protracted than I think it will be. In

the meantime, if anyone wishes to go back and avail of coffee or tea, then we

would certainly like for them to do so.

Mr. Shelley.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I will start off with, I guess, my favourite

section of this, and for obvious reason, that is, the mining sector. Of course,

it is very interesting to my area. It is good to hear the minister talk about

Voisey's Bay and it is good for the Province and it is good for everybody. It is

something that I'm very interested in and I hope it does develop. With what we

hear recently, I hope it does develop very soon. We need it, that's for sure. It

is also a good boost for mining in the Province. In particular, now, I will talk

about my district because it has a lot to do with mining.

I will start off by asking the question - first of

all, we haven't mentioned a lot about the exploration yet. I will just get a

little update from you on what you see in exploration this summer in the

Province in general and, of course, I would like to know specifically, too, with

the Baie Verte Peninsula, how much increase and whatever.

DR. GIBBONS: As I said in my introductory

remarks, we had about $12.5 million spent last year. Before Voisey's Bay was

announced really we were expecting maybe $15 million would be spent this year of

which about $12 million or so would be spent on the Island. The Baie Verte -

Springdale region has always gotten probably a third, at least, of the

exploration dollars, because it is one of the most prospective regions on the

Island. We think it is going to be still a very active area, especially with the

work that is going on around the Rambler, Nugget Pond, and a lot of claims still

held in that area.

So you are going to have a lot of activity and, of

course, the development of Voisey's Bay, a drilling company out of Springdale,

which I am sure must have some people from your region working with them, they

have the contract for Voisey's Bay.

MR. SHELLEY: Yes, that's right.

DR. GIBBONS: So there is probably, some

spin-off into your area as well, from that.

MR. SHELLEY: Put this on record now so that I

can say to you, too, that the mining conference which will be held in June - I

have been asked and you will be asked again, of course - I have been asked

(inaudible) every now and then for you and the Premier to be there at this

particular conference. They will officially invite you because they will be

presenting an award to those people from Voisey's Bay who made the discovery.

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, boy, I am aware of that, I

have already received my invitation and I think the Baie Verte Mining Conference

should be a great one again this year; I think there will be lots of excitement

there.

MR. SHELLEY: I think so, too.

So that's on exploration, and I am pleased to hear

that. Now, I will go to a couple of specific sites down there and then ask a

couple more questions on it. But before I do that, just specifically, with the

numbers here, 2.2.01 and 2.2.03, Mineral Resource Management- MDA11. In both of

those, in the Grants and Subsidies, could you, very briefly, just - I mean those

Grants and Subsidies, there is half-a-million under the financial project

analysis and also Mineral Resource Management, could you be a little more

specific on what those Grants are, to whom they go and for what?

DR. GIBBONS: Yes. Now the first one, the

Mineral Resource Management-MDA11, that is reflecting this new mineral

development agreement, the one-year extension we have with the feds, so we have

money that is going into that; and over to the other one: Financial and Project

Analysis on the top of page 139, a half-a-million dollars in Grants and

Subsidies, so it is in these two subheads that we have the money that goes

towards our Mineral Industry Assistance Program, our Prospectors Training

Program, prospectors grants, this is where that money comes from. The other MDA

money that was asked about earlier, is the geological survey type money. This is

the industry-related, prospector-related money.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. Thanks very much.

You mentioned Nugget Pond earlier; it looks as if

they will be up and running and hopefully that will be a little boost; I think

we need a little catalyst in that area to get things going, and I think this

group thing you have there is a good sound group of people.

They have also mentioned in a press release that

Betts Cove and Tilt Cove are being looked at. Can you update me on how serious

they were about that and what they planned on doing, if anything, this summer?

DR. GIBBONS: Well, what happened a few weeks

ago, is that the people who have Nugget Pond made a deal with Bi-tech, bought

the Bi-tech share of Nugget Pond but also they took the Bi-tech mineral rights

in the Betts Cove, Tilt Cove area, the other mineral rights they had in that

area, so I would expect that in 1995 they will do some exploration on that. I

would expect some exploration there. I don't know if Paul has anything to add to

that.

MR. DEAN: No, I think the minister has

essentially summarized it; only to add that the company that is developing

Nugget Pond was drilling at Nugget Pond up until about a week ago, and it has

been a very active year for drilling on the Baie Verte Peninsula since

Christmas, essentially, up until about a week ago when some of the projects were

completed.

MR. SHELLEY: Now, we will move on a little

further there. The Rambler update; I need an update on that. I haven't talked to

them in the last couple of weeks but they still don't have their funding

secured, as far as I know, as much as they want. I think the environment

situation looks pretty good there, as far as I can understand, so what is the

next step for them?

DR. GIBBONS: Well, I think, as you say, the

environment should not be a problem; it is not a previously operated mine and we

expect that they should be given environmental clearance in appropriate time if

they don't have it already, and it is a matter of having their financing

finalized. But that one looks like a real prospect for possible development in

this year again.

MR. SHELLEY: You are feeling pretty positive

about it.

DR. GIBBONS: I do feel quite positive about the

prospects for the Rambler this year.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. Pine Cove, which was not

mentioned a lot yet but I know they are just looking at financing and I know

just last week alone they were - can you update me on that?

DR. GIBBONS: Yes. I am almost afraid to say

anything about Pine Cove.

MR. SHELLEY: I know you are.

DR. GIBBONS: I never mentioned it deliberately.

I don't know what to say, because last year at the Baie Verte Mining Conference,

it seemed it was about to start and the year before that at the mining

conference it was about to start; it is a great prospect, it has over two

million tons in the ground, it is open pittable and it is purely a matter, in my

mind, of the company getting its financial house in order and moving forward.

MR. SHELLEY: That is the bottom line on that.

DR. GIBBONS: It is the bottom line. It already

had clearance from environment, so it is up to them.

MR. SHELLEY: The other question about using it,

how much time do they have to do something about it before they -

DR. GIBBONS: Five years.

MR. SHELLEY: Five years?

DR. GIBBONS: Five years. If it is not done in

five years, then the minister responsible for mines has the option to cancel the

licence.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. Terra Nova - an update on

that.

DR. GIBBONS: That is one that has been tenuous.

It operated last year and I am hoping and expecting that it will operate again

this year. I don't have any new information on it, but again, I could ask Mr.

Dean if he has anything -

MR. SHELLEY: If you could, because I cannot

hear anything on it and it is really (inaudible) to deal with that.

MR. DEAN: We have been in touch with the

company, in fact, throughout the winter. The company's stated plan is that they

have some product in inventory that needs to be sold to give them cash flow to

start up, and that product has not yet been sold. There is about, I believe,

5,000 tons of asbestos fibre, of lower quality, that is in inventory, both in

Baie Verte and in Halifax, and the company says, as soon as we sell that fibre

and move it, that will give us the cash flow to start operations.

There is some restructuring of the company going on

in both Australia and the United States, and in Canada, and that restructuring

hopefully will be completed this spring also, but there is no firm date for

start-up except that when that fibre is sold that will give them the cash flow

to start recalling the workers, do the maintenance and start up.

MR. SHELLEY: Minister, when the waste disposal

was rejected for the Baie Verte area there was still talk then, I know there was

drilling done just before that on the potential for underground asbestos,

because I understand there was potential there to go underground, and high class

fibre there. Has there been any discussion on that?

DR. GIBBONS: There has been no interest shown

to me at my level. I don't know what has been heard by Mr. Dean or others in the

department, but we did two projects on that, including the drilling, so we are

satisfied now that we know enough about what is there in the ground and it is a

good prospect, and sometime somebody will probably say the price of asbestos is

good enough to go underground and mine what is left there, but I don't see

anything happening in the near term.

MR. SHELLEY: There has been no indication from

anybody who is interested in that type of thing?

DR. GIBBONS: I am not aware of anything, and I

honestly don't expect anything to happen in the near term, but I will ask Mr.

Dean if he is more up to date on it than I am.

MR. DEAN: No, as the minister mentioned, we

conducted a drilling program under the minerals agreement, and we did two

separate economic evaluations of underground mining, and I think the conclusions

on those were although the projections were for a positive rate of return on

investment, they were not positive enough, if you like, not a high rate of

return, and also it is difficult, perhaps more difficult than with other mining

projects, to raise funding for asbestos projects.

I think we will just see what happens with Quebec's

production over the coming years. There is some indication that their production

may trail off, and that may translate into increased prices, and if so, then the

potential for underground mining at Baie Verte perhaps will get a higher profile

than it has today.

MR. SHELLEY: The potential is still there,

anyway.

DR. GIBBONS: It's money in the ground.

MR. SHELLEY: The last question I will ask on

the mining: C-Core did some work on the bay in Baie Verte about a year or two

years ago - I cannot remember now; I think it was two years ago. They had some

problem with the fishery there, the lobster fishermen there at the time. Is

there any thought of continuing that? Because I know there was some great

potential talked about there.

DR. GIBBONS: Well, there is certainly some gold

in the placer offshore. You are right, when they wanted to go there and do a

trial, they had some difficulty because of the conflict with lobster fishing in

the area, and concern that it would interfere with the lobster fishery, because

they wanted to do it during that season, and they moved over to Indian Island

area, or Fogo Island area, or somewhere like that, and did their experiment, so

there is no plan at this time, that I am aware of, to go back.

MR. SHELLEY: Those are all the questions I have

about mining, but I will come back to forestry after that.

AN HON. MEMBER: Carry on; go ahead.

MR. SHELLEY: I will start with that but I am

going to come back - okay, I will just skip the forestry questions. I just have

a small part on wildlife and then I will come back to forestry.

You were talking about the moose population a

little while ago. Did I hear right, when I was up getting a coffee, that in a

month or so you will have the newest count on that?

DR. GIBBONS: We have the counts done for this

past year, and our people who did the counts are now getting all their data

compiled. Within the next few weeks they are expecting to make representations

to us, to the executive, relative to any changes they would want in the license

allocation that we are going to have for this year's moose and caribou draw.

MR. SHELLEY: Are there any indicators yet that

the moose population could be down and could actually be in danger?

DR. GIBBONS: Well, as I said at the beginning,

there are some indications upwards and some indications downwards but I will

have to wait until I get all the details. I don't know what unbalance there is

going to be until I get all the details before me, but I don't have any major

concerns right now because I am seeing ups and downs. Maybe it will come out

even, or maybe it will be slightly up or slightly down. I have to wait and see.

MR. SHELLEY: I am no expert in this. It is just

a personal opinion, but I have some great fears about the moose population in

this Province, especially in an area like mine that usually has a high moose

population. I drive the roads early in the morning and evenings and I never see

a moose anymore. This is the first time in years and years, so I have been

wondering about it.

DR. GIBBONS: There is no question that in some

parts of the Province the population is down a bit and in other parts it is up a

bit. We are doing the count now so that we will know exactly what the situation

is, and once the details come to us then we will have a much better feel for it

in general, because the areas that were done this year were geographically

disbursed from the top of the Northern Peninsula to St. John's, in the ten, so

we picked one here, one there, and so on, so we could get a feel for the whole

Province. Once these numbers are in we will have a feel for it.

MR. SHELLEY: I hope that is a good indicator,

and these are pretty legitimate studies, I guess?

DR. GIBBONS: This was a great year for the

count because we had a lot of snow and with the low-level flying they do it was

very easy to see them, and a great year for counting big game.

MR. SHELLEY: That's good, because I just used

the road there as an indicator, but sometimes I fear that sometimes we might

have a miscount over the years.

DR. GIBBONS: Well, we did not really do many

counts over the years. We did one area, or two or three, but we never really did

many counts and there was a lot of uncertainty. It was all on trend data, etc.,

but we finally have some good data this year.

MR. SHELLEY: That is good. I am glad to hear

that.

The last question I want to ask before I turn it

over concerns the outfitter's license. I remember asking another minister this

about a year or so ago. When you look at the outfitter's licenses and how they

are disbursed over the Province I still have a problem with our area. We have

the full Baie Verte Peninsula and there is not one outfitter's license on it.

There are so many people wanting them but it has never been allowed because of

the way they are allotted out. I also asked another minister for a review of how

they were disbursed, the user/lose policy, you use the license or you lose it. I

think it should be looked into again, how these are spread out over the

Province, and that it is done fair and evenly across the Province. Do you have

any comments on that?

DR. GIBBONS: We had a meeting with the

Outfitter's Association just a couple of days ago, myself and Minister Grimes

who is the minister responsible for outfitters. I am sort of the minister

responsible for animals and he is the minister responsible for people. We had a

meeting with the Outfitter's Association and they talked to us about outfitters

in general, how they are distributed and how many licenses they would like to

have, and what they see as the potential for the future. I think, for the most

part, they see some possibilities, some areas where there are no outfitters

where it might be possible to have an outfitter started. That is how they saw it

from the industry perspective and it might be reflecting what you are saying, it

may be an area where there is nobody. There are some other areas, though, where

they are crowding each other.

MR. SHELLEY: That is the whole point I am

making. I know the situation - on the Northern Peninsula down to where we are

there is nothing.

DR. GIBBONS: Those who are outfitters and are

successful - and they are all being successful. The success rate is 80 per cent,

plus, and none of them are saying we want to get out of the business to allow

someone else to come in. The only question is whether or not there is enough of

a population to allow someone else to come in, so the only question is whether

or not there is enough of a population to allow someone else to come in in

another specific geographic area.

MR. SHELLEY: That is my whole point, the

disbursement of licences around the Province. I think that should be looked at

very carefully.

DR. GIBBONS: After we get our moose counts

done, our caribou counts as well, we may be able to look at it in an

area-by-area basis a little more than we've done in the past.

MR. SHELLEY: I think that would solve a lot of

problems.

DR. GIBBONS: We may be able to.

MR. SHELLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Shelley, thank

you, Minister.

Mr. Whelan.

MR. WHELAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, you mentioned earlier about the

offshore Terra Nova oilfield and you said negotiations are ongoing. Could you

sort of bring us up to speed on the negotiations, and I was wondering - probably

mention in particular whether there is any decision yet with regard to the type

or mode of production platform?

DR. GIBBONS: Yes. Well, a few months ago - I

can't remember the exact timing - we made a decision as a government that we

were going to get serious about Terra Nova and we put an officials' committee in

place, chaired by Mr. Stanley, my Deputy Minister, but with other deputy

ministers of the related departments. Mr. Stanley's committee has sub-committees

working on financial aspects, benefits aspects, other aspects, regulatory, of

Terra Nova. They have been having meetings since last Fall, up to and including

this week, continuing to discuss Terra Nova and the progress on it. We are all

hoping that sometime this year we will get a decision on the submission of a

development plan.

It is clear from the companies that in their mind

it has to be a floating mode of production. This is not going to be a gravity

base like Hibernia. The field is not big enough to economically carry a gravity

base. There are a number of different types of floating options and the

consortium led by Petro Canada is evaluating the various types of floating

options. They have not made a decision on the type and that will probably one of

the last things they do decide. The decision we would like to get from them now,

though, is the decision to move it forward, because we would like to see Terra

Nova come very shortly after Hibernia so that we don't have a break in the

momentum. Let's get our industry developed. That is our interest.

MR. WHELAN: Administration - 5.1.01. There has

been some increase there, from $218,500 to $367,200. I notice Supplies,

$135,000, up from $124,000; Purchased Services, up to $86,000 from $20,400.

Could you elaborate on that somewhat?

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, what is covered there, as I

understand it, is the cost that we have for maps and for surveying. We are

reflecting some extra costs there. Ms. Wakeham could probably get into more

specifics on it but that is what is covered in these numbers. These two

particular numbers that you are mentioning are for maps and surveying. We buy

Crown land maps, for example, from the federal service and we sell them, and

that is the cost of getting the maps but also (inaudible). I will ask Ms.

Wakeham to probably speak to it more specifically.

MS. WAKEHAM: The increase - if you look down at

the bottom you will see there is $125,000 in provincial revenue associated, and

that is associated with the $135,000. Basically it is a supply-demand. Dependent

on what the demand is, we go out and purchase more maps at the NTS, from the

Federal Government, and then we re-supply those. We are the only agency that

keeps sort of a whole supply of the national topographic maps and these are

purchased basically by the general public and by a lot of professionals who are

out in the field who require maps. Basically you have an offset. Really, it just

fluctuates from year to year, dependent on what the demand is out there. So that

is the increase there.

The $86,000 on Purchased Services: We previously

were putting some of the survey and technical services that we were doing under

Professional Services, and we had to re-categorize those because it was the

wrong category. Basically that $86,000 is a combination of what we had on

Purchased Services, which would be our normal Purchased Services in terms of

supplies, plus some of the surveying and technical services that we are now

contracting - that is the increase there. It is just a re-categorization -

instead of having 04, 05 and 06, we have combined 05 and 06 into one.

MR. WHELAN: A few minutes ago, Mr. Penney was

talking about some people who had problems with their land after CN turned over

the land they had in this Province, to the Province, the Provincial Government.

They found that the land they were on wasn't theirs. They were referred to as

`illegals'. I have heard that term mentioned a number of times. How long have

they - have they always been there illegally, and if not, how long have they

been illegal? Because this term `illegal' sort of has connotations of a criminal

intent and criminal action.

I know, back in the 1400s and 1500s there were a

number of people who came over here and for some reason had to go into the

backwoods and had to build shanties and I suppose, they were considered

`illegals', but in a sense, it is our heritage and our tradition and for some

reason, it strikes a note of disharmony with me, when we refer to our people

who, probably have been living in an area for seventy years or 100 years, people

who, at the time did what was the norm for the day, they picked a piece of

ground and they built a house on it and homesteaded it and did whatever they had

to do, raised families, generation after generation and today, for some reason,

we look on them as `illegals' and I was wondering: why now, are we looking at

them as `illegals', and how long have they been illegal? Have we been criminals

for generations? I would like to get this thing straightened out.

DR. GIBBONS: I know we use the term `illegal'

because they are illegally occupying land without having legal title to the

land, but I don't think anyone is saying they are criminals. I think all of us

probably have relatives and friends, if we don't do it ourselves -

MR. WHELAN: No, but it has connotations.

DR. GIBBONS: - who built a shack on a piece of

Crown lands and afterwards applied. And that is one of the battles we have in

the Crown Lands division, that even today, a lot of people do not, adequately

follow the procedures of coming in and applying first for a piece of Crown land

and get approval for it before they start construction. We have regulations in

place to address that, but we probably have almost as many people who are in

that category, if not more, as in the categories that we talked about when we

discussed the railroad lands and the Kruger lands, quite a lot of people we are

dealing with on a daily basis but they are not criminals. It is just that we

wish they would get legal title.

MR. WHELAN: I didn't say they were criminals;

but I said the term `illegal' has connotations of some sort of a criminal act or

that they are living outside the law; even if we just change the term `illegals'

to something a little bit more acceptable, I suppose, but it sort of grates.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WHELAN: Yes, probably just call a spade a

spade maybe, yes.

AN HON. MEMBER: Call them squatters.

MR. WHELAN: Squatters, well, squatters have

rights in some areas.

DR. GIBBONS: But it is pretty tough. I know I

have only been the minister for Crown lands for a few months but it is pretty

tough to keep people from going out and building their cabins without having

first gotten the title to the land, to a Crown land lease. We are struggling

with it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

DR. GIBBONS: Oh, yes, and some who do get legal

title, then they go and build somewhere else. I don't know if they get lost or

something when they go in with their wood.

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible).

DR. GIBBONS: Exactly, and the Vice-Chair and I

are both familiar with that exact case.

MR. WHELAN: But there are people as well who

have lived on property for generation after generation and are termed as

illegals. I understand that people today, where there is a law in effect and if

you go in and you spot a piece of ground, the procedure is to go to Crown Lands

and stake your claim and get permission, pay your fee and build your cabin, but

it has not always been the case, it was the accepted practice years and years

ago that you go in and find a piece of ground and that is where you could stake

your claim and you could live on that and you could work it and you could raise

your family. And these people are subject to the same stigma and the same

penalties, I suppose, as people who go in today and actually break the law by

doing just that type of thing.

It is basically, I suppose, just a point that I was

trying to make. As I said before, there is something about it that just grates

on me every time I hear it, because that is where our heritage has been, that is

how we came to be here. If we didn't do that we would be still speaking with an

AN HON. MEMBER: Some of us are.

DR. GIBBONS: Across the ocean some of us are.

When did these people become illegal? I mean, people who have been living on a

piece of ground for generation after generation.

I think this government and the former government

tried to address that problem. I know, a few years ago, the former government

gave an amnesty period and said: If you are on a piece of Crown land, you are on

a piece of land, and you don't have a grant or a lease for it, come in and

declare yourselves and we will give you an amnesty and we will give you legal

title and process it. A lot of people came forward at that time who had been on

land for a long time under the traditional way of doing it. Now, we are trying

to identify every individual who is not on a piece of land that has legal title

and, as I said, it is a regular continuous problem.

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible).

DR. GIBBONS: No, it is continuous. I can ask

Ms. Wakeham to speak to it because she is into it daily, continuously.

MS. WAKEHAM: The term is not a term that has

been developed by me or one that is used.

WITNESS: No, I didn't say it was.

MS. WAKEHAM: Basically, it is part of the

property law which states that you either hold title that has been duly granted

or leased by the Crown in "a legal fashion," or you don't. If you don't have

legal title then you are illegally occupying Crown land. I could say that you

are occupying without legal title but that is the only other way that I can

possibly state the status of the people who are on the land.

We have over 85,000 files on transactions in this

Province, and that is grants, leases, licences, easements. We probably have -

and this is an estimation - another 25,000 people out there who do not have

legal title. The lawyers come to us to search the deeds to find out whether or

not there are transactions. Unfortunately, most people believe that if their

father gave them a piece of land in a will, that that will in fact has legal

title, when in fact unless that will can be tied to an actual grant or lease

there is no legal title. That is a piece of paper that is registered in the

Registry of Deeds that has no validity in law. This is one of the difficulties.

People do not understand. They say: My father, my grandfather, my

great-grandfather gave me this piece of land, but unfortunately the father,

grandfather, or great-grandfather never obtained legal title to the land to

begin with.

Under the legislation, the lands' act which is - in

1992 we amalgamated some seven or eight different acts into one act called the

lands act. Government originally, back in 1976, said: If you could prove that

you were on the land for sixty years then you would have adverse possession and

could be granted, or the Crown would have extinguished its rights. When the new

act came in, the term was changed to a twenty-year continuous term.

This has been disputed in the courts. We are in the

courts maybe 200 cases a year, because we have another mechanism for people to

use if, in fact, they believe that they have possessed the land; it is called

`quieting of titles', and they can go to court and the Crown would then have to

prove that it is Crown land, and they would have to prove that it is their land,

and the documentation would have to be brought forward. Then the court decides

and will provide you with a title based on the evidence as presented. The term,

unfortunately, is not intended to provide - it is not meant to be seen as

negative. It is just a matter of a legal term more than anything else.

MR. WHELAN: Maybe we should be doing another

title search.

With regard to resource roads, road construction,

are there any plans for resource roads in the Central Avalon area, Mr. Minister?

DR. GIBBONS: I don't know which ones. I have a

list here now, and I don't know where they are because all I have is the name of

a road. I have a list of roads and I would assume they are distributed across

the Province. If I go down to $2 million, approximately $2 million was on that

budget subhead that we looked at earlier, we have about twenty-five different

roads in various parts of the Province, and it is going to total up to about

sixty or seventy kilometres for us in these various areas. Dr. Nazir might be

able to speak to it.

DR. NAZIR: Yes, there are a couple of roads

planned. There is a Mr. Fowler, a sawmiller with his (inaudible) of wood, and he

is supposed to operate as one (inaudible) and there is another of the operators.

But with respect to those roads, we have had some public meetings and there are

others ongoing. There is no decision whether they will proceed or not. Last year

we had to postpone the construction of one of them because there was a group of

people involved in tentative planning of the resources exercise, and since the

exercise was not completed they postponed the construction last year. This year

the minister has not made any decision yet. In fact the list the minister has is

a tentative list, and some of the lengths of the roads will change depending on

our ability to deliver them during the year, and he will also decide whether

those two roads will go ahead or not.

MR. WHELAN: Thank you. It is the first time I

have seen the list, actually.

DR. NAZIR: It is a very preliminary list.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Whelan. Thank you,

Minister.

Mr. Woodford.

MR. WOODFORD: I will let it go to Paul.

MR. CHAIRMAN: So you are finished?

MR. WOODFORD: Not necessarily.

MR. SHELLEY: Is that list of roads the final

list now for this Spring, or is it tentative?

DR. GIBBONS: I think it is the first time I

have seen it. It just got put in front me here when the question came up

earlier, so I guess it is a tentative list and it will come forward for

decision-making, but I know it is there by priority basis.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay. With forestry, first of all,

4.2.01.05.

DR. GIBBONS: 4.2.01.05.

MR. SHELLEY: I assume that is for the spraying.

DR. GIBBONS: Yes, that is the money that is put

in for the spray program.

MR. SHELLEY: So basically $2.5 million from

last year will suffice for the spraying for this year.

DR. GIBBONS: Well, the amount that is in that

program for Insect Control, it looks like $3.1 million total there on the

`amount to be voted' line; and Professional Services, I guess that would cover

all of the contracts for aircraft and other types of contractual services that

would be associated with it.

MR. SHELLEY: Okay, Minister, these are the last

few questions I will have and they are going to pertain to forestry. I have a

hard time actually getting down to being specific, because I think if we did

that then I think I could be into this discussion for a couple of hours because

I am very concerned about forestry. I have said it for quite a while now. As I

said, if we had to go through it specifically, one by one, I guess we could be

here for a long time.

I am very disappointed with the federal agreement

being finished as of March 1997. Is that right, March 1997?

DR. GIBBONS: The federal agreement just ended

last week.

MR. SHELLEY: No, I am sorry. The federal

agreement ending: The CFS Centre will be finished as of March 1997.

DR. GIBBONS: The Canadian Forestry Service,

yes, the phase-down.

MR. SHELLEY: First of all, back to the forestry

agreement itself. I am very disappointed in it, I am sure you are as minister,

too, and this whole Province should be, in fact, we should be outraged with it.

As a matter of fact, I have documents in my files now, letters that I wrote to

the previous Prime Minister discussing the outrage. Because this Province just

saw what happened in the fishery; and under the Terms of Union, of course, when

we joined Confederation, we would be able to depend on the Federal Government to

help us with a renewable resource such as forestry, and I really think they owe

us more than that. I don't care what the Administration's political stripe is up

there. I really have some very serious concerns with the renewable resource of

forestry in this Province.

I suppose, more specifically right now, in March

1997 we will see the CFS Centre practically closed down here - I think the

minister has already confirmed that there will be seventeen workers left. The

numbers are really not that important, the whole principle of this is that that

centre provides some very good services to this Province. I don't have to go

into that, the minister knows, and I am sure his officials here know that.

Especially, as it pertains to silviculture, I don't see somebody in New

Brunswick monitoring anything in silviculture or having anything to do with

forestry in this Province and telling us what we can do here. I just will never

buy that from anyone. If it is my party in there or any other, it just doesn't

matter, it goes far beyond political stripe.

It is the renewable resources left that I still get

fears about right now. If we could go into the specifics, the bottom line is

that all the negatives, the taking away of trees, whether by cutting -

commercial, private, trees dying, over-maturing, forest fires, insects, and

everything else, the number of trees that are being taken away each day compared

to the number that are growing in this Province is a concern. I think we can all

agree with that. This particular centre and what it does for this Province is

vital, I think, and its closure would be a real nail in the coffin for forestry.

I want to ask the minister here - I asked a few

questions in the House and I plan on asking more. You said you were having

discussions with the federal people. How do you feel? Is there a chance that can

be reversed? How strong a stand is this government and all of us as a Province

going to take to renew that, and have them reconsider that particular centre?

DR. GIBBONS: Well, as I said in response to

questions in the House, I am continuing to have discussion with the federal

minister on it. I do not know if there will be any change. There are certain

parts of the forestry sector that have been covered by this particular service,

particularly insect control, insect research. We do surveys every year and

research on types of spray and insecticides, etc. They have done great work for

us and I hope they will continue to do a lot of great work for us. We had to be

there to do our part as well.

Forestry is a provincial responsibility

constitutionally and we are going to ensure that our forests are properly

managed. We are showing that again with our Budget decisions this year and when

we look at the Department of Natural Resources in total we are putting $22

million into forestry, almost half of our Budget for this particular department.

We, ourselves are not going to be slack, we are going to ensure that the

resource is properly managed. I express my own disappointment with how far back

the federal forestry centre has been projected to be cut, and I am continuing to

discuss it with the minister.

MR. SHELLEY: Well, Mr. Minister, I am glad to

hear you say that and I am sure you say it in all sincerity, but as for the

budget this year, I am glad, too, that the Province has seen fit to put more

into it, and to be blunt about it, it is the least we could have done. The truth

is, that is fine for this year, but when we had a national-provincial agreement,

we had assured money there for a period of time. But what is going to happen

next year, Minister, that is the question, and I think it is a fair question.

We know how restraint goes, the balanced budgets,

and everything else - what is going to happen next year? How short are we? I

will answer the question and say we are not very short at all and next year the

Provincial Government can again put that money back in the Budget. I think the

solution is, or at least what we have to lean towards for a solution, is back to

the Federal Government again. I know it is a provincial responsibility, yes, but

the Federal Government also has a responsibility to this Province and I think

the answer lies back with the Federal Government.

As the forestry critic, and somebody who is very

concerned about it, and I know you are, too, I am going to try every avenue

possible. I am discussing some of those now with some groups and I am hoping to

even get the support of you yourself as the minister and anybody else in this

Province who will help and lobby, and not to just let the Federal Government

know very calmly how we feel, but to show outrage and tell them that this

Province will not stand for it in any shape or form. Another reasonable force is

to go the same way the fishery did.

Although I think you have said as much as you can

say at this point, I am, as the forestry critic, just letting you know that I

have talked to a lot of people during the last two weeks since I brought this

up, including groups who have called me and want to meet. I will talk with any

of them and we are going to find ways to fight this, and fight it now. I really

think we are going to look at the eleventh hour again in forestry as we did with

the fishery. I think we are on the brink of that right now. If there is one time

in our history that we do not need to go back on such a thing as the CFS Centre

here and anything to do with silviculture it is right now.

It is not for you as the minister, or somebody else

to stand up in this Province two, three, or four years from now - and I do not

think I am too far out on a limb in saying it, that we might have a call for a

moratorium in this Province if we are not careful. I do not think it is too far

out to say it at all. My message here tonight, and one of the reasons I wanted

to get here, was to say that I do have a fear for forestry in this Province.

Yes, I think there are good things being done

provincially, as much as we can, and yes, I'm glad that that the Provincial

Government added money to the budget this year to offset this end to the

agreement. But no, we are certainly not safe and comfortable in the forest

industry in the Province. I will certainly do everything I can to make sure that

the Federal Government, whichever party is in power, realizes that we need the

support of the Federal Government. That is all I wanted to say, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Shelley. I don't

know if you want to respond, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Andersen III.

MR. WILLIAM ANDERSEN III: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

I have three or four questions here, Minister. The

first one is with respect to new staked claims in Northern Labrador, in the

Torngat Mountains district. I understood yesterday - I cannot remember with whom

I was speaking - but where I have my cabin up in Okak Bay area apparently it has

all been staked as well. The question I have with respect to the staking of

claims - the new staked claims, is: Have the stakers been advised of an

outstanding aboriginal claim still to be settled?

DR. GIBBONS: Yes.

MR. WILLIAM ANDERSEN III: The same as the prior

ones. That is the first question. The second question is with respect to Crown

lands, since Mr. Whelan brought it up. I know that the Church and the Labrador

Inuit Association have been negotiating what is called the Moravian Church land

grants. I have also heard through the grapevine, if you will, that the Province

is interested in those Moravian Church land grants becoming Crown lands.

Without siding with anyone, first of all I have a

problem with the principle under which the church land grants were granted to

the Moravian Church, anyway. Because if you read the church archives, the grants

were given to the Church to christianize the Eskimos like myself, and if they

didn't christianize on those lands, then they were banned from those certain

areas. Has there been any movement with respect to that process between the

government, the LIA and the Moravian Church?

DR. GIBBONS: I will take your first question

first. For anyone who stakes mineral claims in Labrador through the map staking

process, they are informed that we have outstanding native claims in the area

and that any staking is subject to a final resolution. I'm not sure of the exact

words we have on that particular notice that we give them. Paul Dean could

probably speak more specifically to that. We do inform everybody who is doing

any mineral staking in Labrador about the outstanding land claims negotiations

that are ongoing.

Relative to people who might have staked around

your cabin, there is a requirement of anyone who stakes around any private land

obviously that he is going to have to deal with the private landowner before

they can go in and trespass. Because you have the surface rights if you have the

private land, and they have the mineral rights, for now, for the sake of mineral

exploration. Depending on where your cabin may be, or others may have cabins, we

have made exempt mineral lands in seven different areas, around seven areas that

either are today occupied by LIA members - like around Nain, Hopedale, Makkovik,

Okak - and some that did have people living there. So there are seven areas that

are off limits now to any further staking.

There might have been some staking in the first

round after Voisey's Bay was announced, but now, no one can stake - it has been

frozen and it will continue to be frozen until July 1 1996, I believe it is,

Paul? Again, they are all informed when they stake outside of these frozen areas

that there are ongoing negotiations for land claims.

As for the Moravian land grants, there have been

some discussions relative to that. I think we are trying to bring it to some

type of resolution. I know that Ms. Wakeham has been involved in the details on

that with representatives of the Moravian Church. I don't have the details so I

would rather ask her to speak to that particular aspect.

MS. WAKEHAM: I think the first thing that has

to be clarified is that we are talking about Moravian interests as opposed to

Moravian land grants. In fact, the 1776, 1779, 1824 documents that were filed

with the Church by the British government, the Orders in Council, are in fact,

only a permission to occupy, as opposed to a granting of the land. There was no

title that was actually given to the Church.

We were directed by Cabinet last year to have

discussions with the Moravian Church. A letter was written to the

representative, Mr. Edmunds, and we had our first meeting on May 11 of last

year. Subsequent to that, we required the Moravian Church to come back to us and

provide us with a resolution as to who were going to be their negotiators. We

did not receive confirmation of that until October 24 of last year. There have

been numerous overtures made to try to get meetings. Meetings have been set up

on five occasions now and have been cancelled by the principals. Mr. Andersen,

last year - I think it was Sam Andersen, last year, who was president of the LIA

- and Mr. Barbour, this year, have both written requesting input into those

discussions. We have responded, and the Premier has responded, to those.

At the moment, we are treating this as a separate

issue, as a separate set of negotiations outside the overall native land claims

negotiations. The position of the government is that - and I know this has been

an ongoing situation. The documentation that I have read goes back at least

seventy years. They have, on nineteen occasions, tried to resolve this issue and

it has never been resolved. I think somewhere around 1974 they came close to

having some real discussions. The situation right now is that Barrie Heywood of

Heywood Kennedy Belbin has been named as the solicitor for the Church - I

understand Mr. Heywood has some Moravian connections - and representative,

Walter Edmunds is from the Church itself. We do have a resolution that has been

signed by the Church nominating these two people for the discussions.

I have been trying - I made nineteen phone calls

and set up three sets of meetings between January of this year and March 20 and

all of them were cancelled. I am going to continue to try to bring that to some

form of a resolution this year.

MR. WILLIAM ANDERSEN III: I wish you well,

because I had the same experience with Walter Edmunds and Mr. Heywood. In fact,

Mr. Heywood has been a legal counsel to the Church since the early- to

mid-1980s. Anyway, that was the briefing I wanted on the Church.

My greater interest is the George River caribou

herd. Some years back I was involved in trying to help push the Government of

Newfoundland and Labrador and the Government of Quebec into creating a joint

management board for the George River caribou herd. I raise this issue because I

know that the two governments were always at odds as to what the total allowable

harvest from the herd could ever be. When I was with the Wildlife division back

in the late 1970s and early 1980s, at that time Newfoundland was saying the

total allowable harvest would be somewhere around 30,000 animals and Quebec was

saying 50,000 per annum. Right now I believe it is between 40,000 and 50,000

animals per year.

I have developed a great concern because since

December, the George River caribou herd, the bulk of the herd has been spread

out from Makkovik - I am going by district - up as far north as Hebron which is

about a 600-kilometre stretch of area, and in four different instances,

Makkovik, Hopedale, Davis Inlet and Nain, hunters have said they have seen

caribou heading out towards the ocean on floes, not in large numbers, I mean,

you see herds of 100 or 200 heading out that way, it is not a large number of

animals, but how many of those little herds have gone out and perhaps not come

back?

In the dead of winter when the Arctic floe is

pretty much stuck together because of calm conditions, they could head well in

excess of 100 miles offshore and if a storm came up, there is no chance for

those caribou. And how many might we have lost in that manner? And I think that

bears thinking about, the possibility of this government, the Government of

Newfoundland and Labrador and the Government of Quebec perhaps, looking at a

joint survey again of the herd once it is back together.

I know it is difficult to do a survey on a large

herd like that because they are so spread out, and this only happened in the

last couple of years. I was involved in a couple of surveys and you know, you

could count the 500,000 animals in the span of 120 miles, but right now, you are

looking at 300 miles and God only knows how wide. So, is there any possibility

of looking at another survey of that herd just to ensure that, you know, if we

are going to have a total allowable harvest in another year of 45,000 to 50,000

animals, are we overtaking or are we not?

DR. GIBBONS: I am not aware myself of any plan

to have a new count. I don't know if Dr. Nazir is aware of any plan to have a

new count in the near term.

DR. NAZIR: Since the herd, as you have rightly

pointed out is migrating, it moves in both provinces and various territories,

and it is very difficult to do a survey unless you have some kind of a

co-operative approach, as you have rightly pointed out, but in terms of

co-management or joint management, there have been some problems with Quebec in

the past. The herd has increased since you looked at it the last time around

from 500,000 to, people say now, around 700,000 animals and currently, I think

it is around 40,000 being harvested in both provinces, thirty-eight or so; so

there is room for more harvest if it is 700,000 plus or minus according various

estimation.

There is a lot of interest and some scientists have

studied and we have done some work but not a comprehensive survey which would

count all of the herd at the same time. The thinking there, is that maybe the

herd has started growing for the last two or three years, and one of the reasons

it is spreading out in areas it never was, is looking for new ranges, new places

to eat and shelter, and that is probably a reflection that the herd is too big

and is getting into areas it never went. So, how to stabilize so that the range

is not deteriorated, it has future feed for itself on the range, those are the

types of issue which we have started looking at very intensively and, of course,

the harvesting practices themselves which Mr. Whelan will be looking at, as the

minister mentioned, the discussion paper. Some of these issues which you have

raised, the size of the population and hunt, will also be brought up when Mr.

Whelan goes up there to get some input from other people and certainly we will

by intensifying our efforts.

DR. GIBBONS: The mention of the joint

management board we talked about - I know that when the ruling on low-level

flying came down, one of the recommendations there as well was that a joint

management board be put in place between the two provinces and various other

people who have interests. We have not taken any action on that, but I guess

that is one of the things we will have to take a look at now in months ahead.

MR. ANDERSEN III: If I may, one more concern

with the George River caribou herd. You are well aware, I would just like, for

the record, to suggest that government might look at greater enforcement, if you

will, on the management of the herd. Last year, in Labrador City, when I

attended the conference on managing the George River caribou herd, one of the

operators up there indicated to me that IOC had shipped out from Labrador City

to Quebec approximately 130,000 pounds of meat which, in our view, was illegally

taken. Now, 130,000 pounds of meat would probably translate into about 2,000

caribou.

So, if that is happening, I think greater emphasis

should be placed on enforcement personnel in the area. I know, even in my own

district, Aboriginal people mostly, the Inuit are abusing the herd. I took my

little fellow with me in January to go and get a caribou, and we were only gone

twenty-five minutes from the time we left Nain until we got back home with our

caribou, but during that span we came across two caribou that had been shot and

left. How much more of that is happening? And for all of the Torngat Mountain

district we have one wildlife officer; protection officer. I think it certainly

bears looking into to see if there could be more done.

DR. GIBBONS: There is no question about it, in

the last few months the enforcement question has been brought home to us,

strongly, and that's why we have initiated this review of all aspects of the

George River herd and how we management it. You mentioned the thing about IOC.

This is the first I have heard of that, but that certainly does not sound right

to me, clearly. Over the next few months, I am hoping that we can make some

decisions that will help with enforcement in the future.

MR. ANDERSEN III: I think that is all I have,

Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Andersen. Thank

you, Mr. Minister.

MR. SMITH: Are there no more questions? We ask

the Clerk to call the heads and with the agreement of the Committee, I would

suggest that we call heads 1.1.01 through 6.1.08 inclusive.

On motion, heads 1.1.01 through 6.1.08, inclusive,

carried?

On motion, Department of Natural Resources, total

head carried without amendment.

Before we adjourn this meeting, there is just one

other item of business. You had Minutes of two previous meetings, April 3 and

April 5, and I would entertain a motion to have these adopted.

On motion, Minutes adopted as circulated.

I would like to thank the minister and his staff

for their co-operation, I would also like to thank the members of the Committee

and our support staff here this evening, Elizabeth Murphy our Clerk, Paul

Kelleher, the Page here this evening, and Colin Chapman, looking after the

recording.

With that, I will now ask for a motion of

adjournment.

On motion, Committee adjourned.