LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 7 July, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Pres enting Petitions . . . Read ing and Receiving Petitions . . . Pres enting Reports By Stand ing and Sp ecia l Comm ittees . . . Min isterial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... ORAL QUESTIONS Potash mine, Manitoba - Canamax input into MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

Madam Speak er, I dir ect a question to the Mi nis ter of Energy and Mines having to do with the proposed potash development in Western Manitoba. My question to the Honourable Min ister, Madam Speaker , is could he inform me or the House just who is making the day­ to-day decisions with respect to this summer's exploration work, the reward ing of contracts, etc. it's my understanding that the Manitoba Potash - the people of Manitoba have what, a 49 percent interest, and Canamax, a 51 percent interest - my question to the Mi nister is who is responsible for the day-to­ day decisions of that development?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour abl e Min ister of Energy and Min es. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madam Speak er. Canamax is respon sible. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker , I might indicate that I'm pl eased with that response . Cert ainly , my understanding is that Canamax was brought into the joint venture for their expertise and for their knowledge in this particular field. Then, I ask my supple mentary question, Madam Speaker , to the Honourable Min ister.

Could he then indicate to me why a Manitoba drilling conta ctor, who had extensive involvement in exploration drilling for potash in that area, initially with the IMC group, and up until last Friday was informed by Canamax that he would be ex pected to carry on doing the same exploration drilling for them this sum mer, that that no longer is the case; that, inde ed, a Saskatchewan contractor has been hired for that work? HON. V. SCHROEDER: I've indicated it is Canamax who is the operator , as the member is aware.

When we pu rchased into the operation, there was an agreement pursuant to which they agreed to carry on further exploration. In terms of who they hired, that is something that they clearly have the right to make those decisions, but I can take this question as notice and find out if the member could give me the name of the contra ctor, possibly after question period or during, whatever his preference is, and I will check with Canamax and get back to him. MR. H. ENNS: Just a further supplementary question to the same Minist er.

Perhaps the Min ister didn't fully under stand my supple mentary question of a moment ago. Canamax had been involved with this Manitoba drilling cont ractor, was informed last Friday that Canamax was no longer making those decisions, that the Manitoba Potash Corporation, the public partner in the venture was making these decisions, and their decision was to cancel out the Manitoba content of this contract and farm it out to a Saska tchewan firm.

I might add, Madam Speaker, this kind of work is of course not tendered out; this is the kind of work where natural Manitoba preference should be read ily made use of and applied. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speak er, I think maybe there should be a little better communications within the Opposition offices. The Leader of the Opposition was gi ven the agre ement, the eo-ownership and development agreement when it was signed. Maybe the member ought to take a look at it.

If he didn't get a copy of it, I'd be pleased to send over another copy for him to read, but clearly it is not up to the Province of Manitoba or anyone involved with, on our side of that arrangement, to be making those decisions. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, a final suppl ementary question. Canamax Toronto office had an arrangement to work with a Manitoba contractor; somebody overruled that decision. My question to the Mini ster - who? HON. V.

SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker , as I' ve said, I'd be pl ease to take the question as notice and check from Canamax, but it is not someone from the Government of Manitoba who overruled that. Potash mine, Manitoba -status of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Roblin -Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you, Madam Speaker . During the election campaign, much was said regard ing the pota sh development and my question is to the Mi nister of Energy and Mi nes because of the fact that 49 percent of Canamax shares were purchased by the Manitoba Go vernment.

Could the Minister tell the House how many test holes have been drilled or how many are being planned on being drilled during the current year in that area? 1493

Monday, 7 July, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines . HON. V. SCHROEDER : Madam Speaker, there have been 11 drill holes drilled, eight of those by Canamax , and those drill holes resulted in Canamax identifying a potash reserve covering about one-and-a-quarter townships in the Russell-Binscarth region - and I'm glad to see the Member for that area finally getting up and acknowledging that something's happening there - and I trust that he takes the position opposite to that of the Member for Lakeside who's been criti cizing that developm ent all along. MR. L.

DERKACH : Madam Speaker, the Minister has told us how many holes have been drilled, but my question was, how many test holes are being planned .on being drilled during the current year? Could he tell the House? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, the specifi c number of holes is something that I don't believe has been discussed betw een Canamax and the Provin ce of Manitoba. I can take the question as notice. I know that there is activity going on. There will be further announcements made this summer with respect to testing of hole s and finding out exactly how we're going to go about building that mine.

Potash mine, Manitoba - Canamax input into MR. L. DERKACH: Madam Speaker, to the same Minister, could the Minister indicate to the House what kinds of dollars have been committed to the project for the current year? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, again it's too bad the member hasn 't had the opportunity to have his leader send over a copy of the agreement because the agree ment spells all of those things out . MR. D. ORCHARD: Have you got the answer? HON. V. SCHROEDER: . . over the next several years - if the member for Pembina wants to ask a question , let him stand up .

Under the agreement , Mad am Speaker, Can amax is responsible for all prop erty development; I want to make that very clear. We're not responsible for the property development , it is Canama x who is doing that . They are committed to spending a further $5 million over the next two years from the tim e of the signing of the agreement . They have already spent somewhere in the vicinity of $5.4 million on potash development in that particular area so , over the next two years, there will be a further $5 million put out by Canamax on explorat ion . Potash mine, Manitoba - employment opportunities MR. L.

DERKACH: A final supplementary question to the Minister. With regard to emp loyment opportunities, peopl e in the Russell area, of course, are waiting to see what is happening because employment is of some concern through the summer, and I'm wondering if the Minister could indicate to the House what kinds of emplo yment opportunities are going to be available during th e current year for this specific project? HON. V. SCH ROEDER: Madam Speaker , I've already said that over the next two years there will be $5 million of investm ent by Canamax in furthering exp lora ti on and development of that site.

I can take the specif ic question as to what may be available this summer as notice and mention, Madam Speaker, that we 're all interested in jobs in thi s province; we want to make sure that development in this province turns into job s in this prov ince and we'll do our best to ensure that happens . Ui:ban limit line MADAM SPEAKER: The honourable memb er for Char leswood. MR. J.

ERNST : Thank you, Madam Spe aker, through you to the Minister of Urb an Affairs , cou ld the Minister advise the House if the governmen t made a prede termined arrangement with the City of Winnipeg for amendments to Plan Winnipeg prior to a public heari ng? HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker, the province , in conjunction with a numbe r of city councillors last year, and I believe even in consultation with the member oppos ite, came to an arrangement with the City over a long-term conflict with the City on the Winnip eg line . Of course this arrangement was subject to public hearings which have since taken place. MR.

J. ERNST : Madam Spe ake r, through you again to the Minister of Urban Affairs , could the Minister advise the House if his statement of Friday last , dealing with the fact that the City " broke a deal" with the Province, if that statement is correct? MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the honourable member that a question asking to verify a statement is not in order? Does the honourable member want to rephrase his question and not ask for . . . MR. J. ERNST: Thank you, Madam Speak er.

Could the Minister then advise the House, was there a "deal" made with the City of Winnipeg over this particular matter? 1494 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker , as I indica ted ear lier, the arrangement with the City of Winnipeg , to break the logjam and disagreement between th e two parties, was sub ject to public hearings.

Some of the public hearings did take place and on one occasion, specific ally, there was absolutely no representation by anyone of the public on the proposed amendment that the city and the province had agre ed, a nd the city, notwithstanding the arrangement they had, proceeded

Monday, 7 July, 1986 to agree to a position that was inconsistent with the agreement in 19 85. Madam Speaker, it's been the position of the province all along, with former Urban Affairs Min isters, with my colleagues, and tod ay, that if the province is accountable for a num ber of the lo ng-term costs in urban development, we take that re sponsibility very seriously and resp onsi bil ity and authority go hand-in-hand, Madam Speaker , and we take that very seriously and the long-term planning on behalf of the taxpayers, who ultima tey will have to pay for premature development of our city .

Urban development -limits on MR. J. ERNST: I have a new question for the same Min ister , Madam Speak er. Does the Mini ster intend to legislate limits on urban development that are more restrictive now than proposed under the city's option of Plan Winnipeg? HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker , one of the options for the province is not to do nothing. We are going to take our re sponsibility very seriously in terms of the long-term cost to the City of Winnipeg taxpayers and to the province.

We are not going to allow development to take place where capital costs are necessary for the citizens of Winnipeg, where capital costs are necessary for the province in the area of development of capital costs for schools, for the operating costs of schools; we would prefer to plan jointly with the City of Winnipeg officials, but we will not allow ou rselves to be in a position where, when we plan jointly and we don't have public input to the contr ary, the city unila terally goes ahead, contrary to some of the long-term costs for the province's tax payers and the Ci ty of Winn ipeg taxpayers.

Housing starts -outside urban limit line MR. J. ERNST: A final question for the same Mi nister , Madam Speaker. Can the Min ister inform the House how many of the housing starts, in which this government is taking pride and which this government has touted as being a great economic indicator for Winnipeg and for Manitoba, how many of those housing starts are outside the urban limit line that the province proposed for Plan Winnip eg? HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker, I haven't got the specific number of housing starts outside of the urban limit line that we proposed, or inside the urban limit line.

Surely the province and the city can come to joint arrangements and agreements on the lon g-term development of our city , and dealing with the long-term cost to the taxpayers, both municipally in the City of Winnipeg, and provincial ly, through the taxes through the Department of Education; and surely, when we come to those arrangements and when there's not public objections to the same, that we should be able to proceed in a cooperative way, rather than proceed in a unila teral way. 1495 Bill 105 -proclamation of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. G.

DUCHARME: To the Mini ster of Muni cipal Affairs, have you recently consider ed or . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Would the honourable member ple ase add ress his question through the Chair . MR. G. DUCHARME: Through the Chair to the Min ister of Municipal Affairs. Have you advised the mayor of the City of Winnip eg that you're proclaiming Bill 10 5? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour abl e Min ister of Municipal Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Madam Speaker. No, I have not so advised the Mayor . MR. G.

DUCHARME: Have you had a meeting recently that would lead up to such a press announc ement recently by the mayor of the City of Winnipeg ? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The Minister of Urban Affairs and myself had a meeting with the mayor and the chairperson of, I belie ve, the Finance Comm ittee last Thursday at which we dis cussed the whole issue of the upcoming Winnipeg reassessment. We did talk about considering a num ber of options that we would look at to ameliorate undue hardships, but proclamation of 10 5 was not one of the options that was dis cussed as something that we would do in the immediate future.

Brandon University -terms of settlement of officials MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Thank you Madam Speak er. My question is dir ected to the Min ister of Educa tion. Has the Mi nister or his department been apprised of the details of the terms of settlement reached between the former President of Brandon University and the board of governors, and was the Mini ster consulted as to the wisdom of not disclosing the terms of settlement? HON. J.

STORIE: Madam Speaker , with respect to the last question versed, I was not advised as to the agreement or the terms of the agreement that Brand on University was contemplating with Mr . Perk ins. I did, however, have a chance sometime ago to talk to the Chai rperson of the Brandon University Board of Governors, and indicated to him that the province would have a number of concerns that we hoped would be add ressed through the negotiations.

That would be, first of all, getting the issue off the agenda, which I belie ve has impair ed seriously Brandon University's role in the commun ity, and perhaps its reputation in the communit y, and it was something that needed to be resolved. I indicated as well that whatever resolution was to come about should satisfy that need, as well as be acceptable to the board of governors and, finally , that any settlement should not, the Brandon University

Monday, 7 July, 1986 Board of Governors should not be looking to the province to provide any additional funding . Whatever resolution was to be obtained would have to be done on their own resources, and my own understanding so far is that all of those conditions have been met. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, will the Minister ask the board of governors to make public the terms of the settlement so that the good work begun by Dr.

Maley, the new President of Brandon University, at rebuild ing those links between the University and the City of Brandon, so that that work can go on unhampered by the question marks that have been raised by this issue. HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I concur with the Honourable Member for Brandon West's observations about the work of the current president. I would indicate that I'm not at all con vinced that the revelation of specifics, which obviously deal with matters of personnel, matters of ongoing dispute, would serve any purpose.

However, I believe, as perhaps the member opposite does, that in dealing with these issues sometimes it is appropriate to make them public. I would certainly not countenance such an action without the concurrence of the board of governors, who are a legitimate autonomous body, and the individual involved . Brandon University - program cutbacks MR. J.

McCRAE : Madam Speaker, in view of the answer given by the Minister earlier that funds for the settlement will have to be taken care of by the board of governors , can the Minister assure this House, and the students at Brandon University, that program s in the future will not have to be cut back to make up for the funds expended on this settlement? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Madam Speaker, I believe I can. Lapel buffaloes - shortage of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie . MR. E. CONNERY: Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Tourism, we're in the height of our tourist season.

For the last few weeks, we've had an awful large number of school children coming through the Legislature . We've got groups of people coming to visit Man itoba and groups leaving Manitoba, but for all this while, we do not have the lapel buffaloes that the tourists can have. Can the Minister tell us if they have been ordered and when they will arrive? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Business Development and Tourism . HON. M. HEMPHILL: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

I'm pleased to be able to say that they have been ordered, and I'll have to turn to my colleague to find out when exactly we think they're going to arrive, but they have been ordered. We feel the same way. They're a marvellous promotion, not only for people outside of Manito ba, but for Manitobans . Everybody loves Manitoba pins. MR. E. CONNERY: I ask the Minister of Government Services . We are told that they 've been ordered. Has the order been signed? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, the tender has been let , if that's what the member has been asking . Insofar as how long it takes for them to supply, I would have to take that as notice. MR. E. CONNERY: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister if he would review that order in the light that they can be made by this weekend and have the lapel pins ready for distribution this week, if there 's a Winnipeg supplier can do it? The government owns the dye. They've paid for it, and all he has to do is give the order and the buttons can be made this week . Will he do this? MADAM SPEAKER: Was that a question? MR. E.

CONNERY: Yes. Will he do this? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, I've indicated the tender has been let, and I can't say whether the supply will actually be done before this weekend, but we'll check it out , and encourage them to supply us as soon as possible . They 're very aware that we want them immediately. Potash mine, Manitoba - status of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines . HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, I'd taken several questions as notice earlier in the question period.

First of all from the Member for Roblin-Russell in terms of the amount of work to be done pursuant to the agreement with Canamax. It is an amount of $5 million over a two-year period. There's nothing specified as to Year One or Year Two . Project engineering and surface facilities is $1.34 million; shafts, 160,000; mining, 350 ,000 .00. in addition to that , there's potash test hole drilling , shaft pilot drill hole, land maintenance and acquis ition, and environmental and planning studies, Madam Speaker .

Second ly, I also had a question from the Member for Lakeside in terms of Manitoba vers us other references . I would refer him to Page 78 of the agreement , Clause 13.05 , "Manitoba Preference. In carrying out their responsi bilities and performing their obligations pursuant to this agreement, each of Canama x and Manitoba shall endeavour to purchase all necessary equipment, supplies and professional or other services within the Province of Manitoba where quality , prices and timeliness of delivery are competitive with outside sources. That being the case, I would hope 1496

Monday, 7 July, 1986 that agreement is being adhered to both by the Province of Manitoba and by Canamax , and I will do wha teve r I can to insure that, in fact , is happening. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker , just as a result of the Minister's responses, woul d the Minister undertake to invest igate why a Manitob a drilling contracto r from the Virden area apparently has been relieved from any ex ploration w or k having to do with the potash development ? HON. V. SCHROEDER: I had indicated I wo uld undertake to do that and I certainly will do so .

Cutbacks, Federal - effect on province MADAM SPEA KER: The Honourable Membe r for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I'd like to ask a couple of questions to the Minister of Finance . As far as the Province of Manitoba is concerned, can the Minister of Finance info rm the members of this House , and the people of this province , whether his departmental staff has done, or he will be doing, any study or analysis of the negative effect of the federal cutback on federal purchases of goods and services in this province, on the level of spending in this province, compared to the other provinces?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you , Madam Speaker. I know that all members would be concerned at the latest reports with respect to federal purchases in the Province of Manitoba. We're seeing a situation whereby the purchases in Manitoba have decreased some 31 percent over last year.

You will recall, Madam Speaker , t hat last year the Federal Minister, when there was a report at that time by the Winnipeg Free Press, that it appeared mid-year that there was going to be some slippage in Manitoba, said that Manitoba was getting its fair share, and a Conservative MP at that time also said that there was no slippage and , before the press makes any comment, they should wait till the end of the year. We have now seen the year-end figures and they are down cons iderably . The impact on businesses and opportunities in Manitoba is quite considerable, Madam Speaker. MR. C.

SANTOS: Can the Minister inform the members of this House about the negative effective of this federal cutback in terms of loss of jobs for Manitobans? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I certai nly intend to ask staff and, in consultation with the Department of Industry, Trade and Technology and the Minister responsible, to review that matter to see what the impact is and to bring that to the attenti on of the Federal Government.

You know it's interesting, Madam Speaker , that on many occasions this government has indicated that Manitoba was not receiving its fair share from the Federal Government and , consistently, members opposite and othe rs have said any time we raise those concerns , it is merely fedbashing, but here we have the statistics that tell the true story , Madam Speaker, with re spect to Federal Go vernment actions in Manitoba. Yet, we still have representatives of the Federal Governm ent, like Mr.

Leo Duguay, who is a representative of the Federal Government - a fine man , members say opposite - but here we have this representative of the Federal Government sending out letters to Manitobans suggesting that the position of thi s government is mere ly smoke and mirrors and dishones t. Yet, every time we raise these concerns, Madam Speaker, we know that Manitoba isn't getting its fair share and we 'll continue to press on the matter, what the Federal MP 's try to do to cover up the actions of their Federal Government.

Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation - signatures on pay cheques and forms MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister in charge of MPIC. Can the Minister inform the House why employees' paycheques and contracts of MPIC still bear the signature of fired chairman, Carl Laufer? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MPIC . HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK : I'll take that question as notice and bring a response back very quickly . MRS. C. OLESON: Will MPIC be preparing forms for the interim general manager? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, Mad am Speaker, as a matter of fact, all authorizations have already been changed. I know that part of the reason for Mr. Laufer's signature being retained is because it does take some time to make a new imprint; that is being done at the present time. Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation - preparation and cost of new forms MRS. C. OLESON: Madam Speaker, I was wondering if the Minister could tell us what would be the cost to Autopac of destroying the forms that had been signed by Mr. Laufer. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Madam Speaker, I thought the concern was with Mr.

Laufer's signature appearing on cheques. These are mechanically reproduced and a replacement has been ordered and, I believe, it will be in place very shortly . Soft drinks - deposits on 1497 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ellice .

Monday, 7 July, 1986 MR. H. SMITH: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Min ister of the Environment and is prompted by the newspaper story this weekend. In view of the fact that Mani toba is one of only two provinces in Canada that do not have mandatory deposit for canned soft drinks, and given the fact that less than 10 percent of the empties are returned for recy cling, is the Min ister seriously considering making deposits on soft drinks man datory this Session? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Ma dam Speaker.

There are currently negotiations ongoing with the soft drink industry and have been for some time. There was an agreement with the industry that they would voluntarily im pose upon thems elves a limit of, in Southern Manitoba, that 80 percent of the beverage containers would be retainable. With new packaging in the rece nt 18 months, new packaging and new substances on the market, that percentage has changed greatly. Since hiring a recyc ling coordinator earlier this year, we've given them a priority of trying to find ways of getting this issue back under control.

The industry has just, in a meeting tha t occurred on June 9, has indicated their willi ngness to hire their own coordina tor, to put in place a system similar to that in Min nesota which seems to be an approach to control the non-returnable beverage containers, and we expect to have a proposal very shortly and we'll look at it with a view of impl ementing such in Manitoba. Watershed Conservation Districts - approval of funding MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Yes, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Min ister of Na tural Resources.

Could the Min ister indicate whether the capital funding for the Watershed Conservation Districts in Manitoba has been approved? MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minis ter of Natural Resources. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker , there is an interim capital being approved for the watershed districts at this time. MR. A. DRIEDGER: To the same Min ister, can the Min ister indicate when the funding will be approved for the conservation districts? HON. L. HARAPIAK: I expect that item will be approved tomorrow, Ma dam Spea ker. MR. A. DRIEDGER: A final supplementary to the same Minis ter .

Could the Min ister indi cate how the conservation districts are sup posed to proceed or com plete their capita l projects when ha lf the construction year is already finis hed for this year? HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, we recognize that there is some difficulty in terms of the timing. I have had a conversation with several of the members opposite with respect to the conservation districts that are in their respective areas. We have had discussions on that. We've tried to communic ate to them the time line for this approval. I should indic ate the item would be approved tomor row.

Its final approval will have to go before Cabi net on Wednesd ay. Lake Manitoba levels HON. L. HARAPIAK: Ma dam Speaker, while I have the floor, I would like to provide some information in response to a question that I took as notice from the Member for Portage la Prairie last Thurs day. The concern was with lake water levels on Lake Manitoba. I want to indicate from the information that I received that the desirable range of levels on Lake Ma nitoba is set at 247. 15 as a minimum - that's metres above sea level - to a maximum of 247.75.

The readings taken for the week ending June 21 indica ted tha t the water level was at 247.66, so it is within the range that was set as a desirable level, Ma dam Speaker. Misericordia Hospital addition MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Min ister of Health. A numb er of my constituents have been concerned, driving by Mi sericordia Hospital, at the addition, expansion going on there, which has been indicated to be a parkade, shops and an overpass.

Can the Min ister assure this House that no health care money is being used in that particular addition? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes, Madam Speaker, that is correct, except part of it, the power house, is the only one that is the resp onsibility of the Department of Health. Deer Lodge Centre MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Min ister of Health.

I would ask the Min ister of Health, I have had the opportunity to peruse the Deer Lodge Centre on several occasions in the past while, watching the construction and expansion, and it does not seem to be moving all tha t fast. Is the expansion of the Deer Lodge Centre tha t the Federal Government put $30 million into, on schedule? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister ol Health. 1498

Monday, 7 July, 1986 HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , I've had the same con cerns and I've been assured that , yes, it is on schedule, that all of a sudden you'll see much more action. The planning and so on, the prelimi nary wo rk takes an awful lot of time . I'm told that they will be finished. They better be because we'll lose some of the funds if we're not ready at a certain time. MR. F. JOHNSTON: A suppleme ntary, Madam Speaker. Can the Minis ter inform the House when he expects that there will be extra beds in the Deer Lodge Centre for use for senior citizens? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , we've made the announcement on a numb er of occasions what the facil ities will be like when the work gets finished and there has been no change to that. MR. F. JOHN STON: A final supp lemen tary, Madam Speaker . I wonder if the Minister could inform the Hous e if there has been any decision by the Departmen t of Health or the Health Services to defer any senior citizens accommodation, such as expansion or new accomm odati on , until the Deer Lodge Centre is finish ed, and I'm speaking specifically of the area of St. James­ Assinib oia . HON. L. DESJARDINS: No, Madam Speaker .

Every year, the member will remember , during the Estimates, I bring in the five-year Capital Program and construction for health fac ilities and there has been no holdback of anything that had been approved, that I know of, not for the reason mentioned by my honourable friend . Compensation for Victims of Justice System MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker . A question to the Attorney-General. About a month-and-a-half ago, he indicated he would shortly have a decision for the House with respect to compensation for Mr.

Sophinow and another person who was held in custody for some time as a result of a junior Crown Attorney not reading or being aware of the full brief; and when the senior Crown Attorney took charge of the case the charges were stayed . Could the Attorney-General indicate to the House whether or not he or the government has made a decision on the principle of compensation in these cases? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Madam Speaker , the Member for St.

Norbert is right in sensing that the issue really is a question of principle to be applied in cases where it is alleged that compensation is due, and that is quite a complex matter because we wanted to make sure that any principles adopted by us were in line with those proposed and under considerat ion by the other provinces and by the Federal Government. I expect to be in a position to make an announc ement some time during the course of this week . MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, when the Att orney­ General was asked this questi on possibly a month ago, he indicated then that the decision would be made within a week . Can the Hous e, this time, rest assured that this announcem ent will be mad e withi n one week from today? HON. R. PENNER: Yes, I expect that it will be this week, and I regret that it hasn 't been made sooner , but it has turne d out , in some aspects of it, to be far more complex than I had realized at the time. Anola District Museum signage MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Member for Springfield. MR. G. ROCH: Thank you, Madam Spea ker.

My question is to the Minister of Culture , Heritage and Recreation. A few years ago the government promised the Anola District Museum , a non-profit organization run entirely by volunteers, that a sign would be put up on Highways No. 15 and 12 to indicate to the travelling public the location of the said Museum. To date, no action has been taken on this matter, although it was promised . Can the Minister inform the House as to how much longer these peopl e will have to wait before these signs are installed , espec ially given the fact that we 're currently into the tourist season?

MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Min ister of Culture , Heritage and Recreation . HON . J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I thank the member for bringing this matter to my attention . I will be glad to look into it as soon as possible and get back to him in the near future . Manitoba Lotteries Commission - appearance before Standing Committee MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

To the Minist er of Culture, Heritage and Recreation, about a month ago I asked the question in the House , if the Report of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation would be brought before a Standing Committee of the House. The Minister at that time indicated she was hoping to do something in that regard , would advise us in due course. I wonder if she's now able to advise whether or not that will be before a Standing Committe e. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. HON. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you , Madam Speaker . 1499

Monday, 7 July, 1986 Yes, I'm pleased to inform the member that the Manitoba Lotteries Founda tion will be a part of my Estima tes as Mi nister responsible for Culture, Heritage and Recrea tion, but I would like to indicate to the member that if he has any questions at any time about the Mani toba Lotteries Foundations, he should feel free to ask me. MR. J. ERNST: A question to the same Min ister, if she doesn't mind, Madam Speaker . Normally the process dealing with the Manitoba Lotteries Founda tion Report is in the Estimates process.

The question I asked earlier and again today is: will tha t report now be presented before a Standing Com mittee to be dealt with like the Manitoba Hydro Report or the Manitoba Telephone System or other utility operation, rather than simply under the Mini ster's Sal ary

section of the Estimates? HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: I'd like to repeat the answer that I just gave the member and say that, for the time being, the Estima tes for Lotteries will be handled in the same way it has been hand led for the last number of years. However, it's a very useful and interesting sugge stion and we'll give it serious consideration for the future. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. COMMITTEE CHANGES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Madam Speak er. I have some changes for the Economic Dev elopment Com mittee.

Connery for McC rae; Pan kratz for Orchard. MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Member for Ellice. MR. H. SMITH: I have some changes for the Standing Com mittee on Economic Dev elopment. The Memb er for Rossmere for the Member for Transcona. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker, it's our intent to move into Estimates tod ay, so I move that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Com mittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty, seconded by the Mini ster of Finance.

MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Com mittee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to He r Ma jesty with th e Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Finance and the Honourable Mem ber for Kildonan in the Chair for the Department of Communi ty Services. CONCURRENT COMMI TTTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - COMMUNITY SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Commi ttee will come to order. We are on Resolution 32 under Commu nity Services, Page 34, Item 4.(

e) Family Dispute Services. The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: We have just received a copy of Hansard, which I haven't had really a chance to look at, but I notice that I was questioning the Min ister just before we quit as to the cooperation between them and the police department. I wonder if the Min ister can elaborate on that particular area as far as spousal abuse is concerned. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Commu nity Services. HON. M. SMITH: We do cooperate closely with the police department. The Attorney-G eneral's Department handles the charging side of it.

We have put in a unit in the Public Safety Building to provide services to the women and referral where appropr iate, to look after that side of the issue. But there is close cooperation in the field. MR. A. BROWN: When a complaint comes in, would it be the general rule that the police department would be contacted first, or what happens when a complaint comes in? HON. M. SMITH: The usual route of referral is either self-referral, or through a phone call to a shelter and there's immedia te counselling, then referral to police and/or medical people, as approp riate. MR. A.

BROWN: I understand, then, that the police would be the ones who would be going down and either taking the woman out of that particular circumstance or taking the husband out of the pa rticu lar circumstance, whatever the situation would be. Is this correct? HON. M. SMITH: Yes again, the shelters and the wife abuse crisis lines do get quite a wide range of calls. Sometimes it's a person who's just wanting to talk about what their options are, so that some women would come and perhaps choose to go home.

The counsellor or social worker would call in the police where they felt there was danger or need, or if the woman requested it. But there are some judgment calls made because the woman is generally of adult years and has some range of options as to whether to proce ed. But if anyone felt she was obviously beaten or in immediate danger, the police could be called by the social worker. MR. A. BROWN: So it is the social worker who usually makes - more than likely I should say - would be making first contact with the famil y. Is that correct? HON. M. SMITH: The number of cases are so varied.

Many of the referrals will come with the police, so I couldn't generali ze that it's usually one or the other. The police and the social workers are in close contact. it's just that, in the wife abuse field, sometimes a woman is coming to discuss her situation and may choose to go back to it. So it's a judgment call then whether the situation merits calling the police. 1500

Monday, 7 July, 1986 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could give us some background on what's happening with the Committee on Wife Abuse. I noticed that they have moved out of Children 's Home and have their own facilities now; I believe it's in the St. James area. I wonder ii she'd indicate if there have been any changes in the funding for the Committee on Wife Abuse, and what role is it playing in the whole family violence area? HON. M. SMITH: Essentially the same role.

As they have matured , in a sense , some of the things they were doing are now being taken over by the committees or by a department. They continue to do public education and Outr each. For example, they have been involved this past year in reaching out to immigra nt women . MRS. G. HAMMOND: What committees is the Minister referring to, Mr. Chair man , that are taking over some of their duties, and what is the department taking over? HON. M. SMITH: The way the wife abuse services have developed is that there have been local committees , 21, as a matter of fact, throughout the province .

In order to qualify for money, the province is divided into seven regions and the volunteer committees must come up with a joint plan with the Health and Community Services people in the field in order to qualify for the monies . MRS . G. HAMMOND: I had also asked about the department. HON. M. SMITH: The department centrally does have a coordinator and then the department works through the regional Health and Community Services offices . That's where the joint planning carries on.

Together, in gene ral , the committees do the crisis phone lines and some initial counselling and then they use a referral syste m often to the Health and Communit y Services region. MRS. G. HAMMOND : The committee for wife abuse in Winnipeg - I have a better idea of how the rural areas work - what happens when people phone into the crisis centre in Winnipeg? Do these people go out and pick up women as they do in the rural areas and transfer them to shelters , or how does it work? HON. M.

SMITH: In general , because of the proximity of things in the city, the women are encouraged to find their own way to the shelters. They do have one Outreach worker , though, who is available when needed. In other words , if a phone call comes in, a crisis call to the Winnipeg group, after listening to the concern , the person will be given advice as to where they can get help , you know, a variety of locations, Community Services offices , hospitals or the shelter . MRS. G. HAMMOND: When the Minister is referring to the shelter, is that Osborne House? Is Osborne House still the only shelter then in Winnipeg?

HON. M. SMITH: Osborne is the main point of contact in the city for shelter services . MRS. G. HAMMOND: If it's the main point of contact, then are there other branches? HON. M. SMITH: It is the shelter. There are some other ser vices , hostel services and so on, where a person may be referred to , but Osborne House is key organization. MRS. G. HAMMOND: How many spaces does Osborne House have for, I guess for both women and children at one time? HON. M. SMITH: There are 30 beds plus cribs so young children could be accommod ated above that number . MRS. G.

HAMMOND: The stay at Osborne House is in the neighbourhood of how long? HON. M. SMITH: Under 10 days . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, what kind of support is then given to women if they have to leave under 10 days but are not going back to their own home and reuniting with their husbands? HON. M. SMITH: Again, depending on the need , if the're in a very violen t situation they could move or be moved to second-stage housing.

There was one major development with the social housing in the city where several of the suites with Support Services are des ignated for second-stage housing. 1501 There is also counselling that refers them to a variety of other types of service. If they choose , they can launc h an action under The Family Maintenance Act wher eby it's possible for them to gain access to their own home and the abuser to be removed. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Would the Minister have any idea how often that latter action has been taken? HON. M. SMITH: We don 't have numbers on that.

Again, one of the thrusts in this area is to develop statistics so we do have a better way of measuring the need over severa l years , but we don't have that statistic at hand . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Osborne House, is it usually filled or is there need for a second shelter in Winnipeg? HON. M. SMITH: It's not usually working at capacity. That's one reason we've developed the second-stage housing and why we're helping people, if necessary, to launch actions under The Family Maintenance Act so that it becomes an emergency for stop but the sooner we can move people on into other situations, the better . MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Yes, I'd just like to go back, if I may, a minute . When I asked the question about what happens to women who phone in, who are in abusive situations, I believe the Minister indicated that these women and children have to find their own way to either shelter or to get help . Is there any type of help that is sent by the person on the crisis phone to these people or do they have to take all the action themselves?

Monday, 7 July, 1986 HON. M. SMITH: Well, I think I said earlier that there was an Outreach worker available as needed under the Manitoba committee, but in fact what most of the women want is advice and referral and most of them, if they choose to move out of that situation, are quite prepared, if they know where to go, to go on their own.

Should there be any indi cation of violence or a situation beyond the person's control, well then there are some emergency actions that could be taken, but in fact we find, given the chance to talk this situation through and finding out what their options are, that most women are able to take the next step on their own. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes. If a woman is forced to take a taxi in the middle of the night and not having any mo ney, does Osbo rne Ho us e cover th at type of expense? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, that kind of support is available.

The police often are involved in assisting so that I don't think we're running into a situation with people stranded for want of transportation or knowing where to go or lack of mone y. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes. I want to ask about the - 1 have a type of a brief from the Dauphin Crisis Centre that was indicating that there were many shortcomings with the safe homes. Is the safe home the main shelter in most of the rural areas or what are they doing to alleviate the system? HON. M. SMITH: The regions are responsible for the basic planning for their network of service.

There are, in fact, four shelters in the province - one in Winnipeg, one in Brandon, one in The Pas and one in Thompson. So Dauphin, at the moment, does have the safe home netw ork, but again, the regions are the ones that are to identify their need and determine how to access the resources. MRS. G. HAMMOND: If a region would like to start up a shelter, what type of funding is being given to the regions to start up a shelter? HON. M. SMITH: To date, when regions look at ways to meet the need, they and the Regional Health and Commun ity Service people look at the level of demand.

Where there would appear to be enough demand to merit a shelter, then the next stage of funding would be looked at. I understand that in Dauphin, for example, the curr ent problem, the need level has not been sufficiently high to merit a shelter . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Are tho se figu res the department's figures or is Dauphin suggesting that there's not need for a shelter? HON. M. SMITH: As I said earli er, the accessing of any monies by volunteer comm ittees in the area must depend on their developing a joint plan, with the Health and Com munity Service people.

That means that they mu st talk with one another and come to some agreement on the need level. The Dauphin Crisis Centre has received a very significant increase in grant year-over-year. They were $1 8,000 in 19 84-85, and in 19 85-86, they received $43 ,500, so th ere ha s been an up grading of the response time. Now, the Dauphin Centre, their normal process would be to work with the local Health and Commun ity Service people and come up with a joint plan. If they had any concern about that process, they could always appeal to the provincial coordinator, or to ourselves.

So I would take their brief as step one in that negotiating process. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Could the Minister give an indication, in light of election promises, how much money - what kind of support is going to be given to agencies like the Fort Garry Resource Centre, and is it going to be - I have a press release here tha t she put out on the centre - is it going to be ongoing funding? HON. M. SMITH: The Fort Garry Women 's Resource Centre was offered, on an annual base, $10 0,000 for core funding. Now, that's contingent on us coming to some basic agreement on accountabil ity.

A centre, such as Fort Garry, could then apply to deliver specific services to be funded by any other agency they chose, but this would provide basic core funding for their operation. We have made the offer to them and we're in negotiation with them. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Wha t is the department specifying as being the core funding? HON. M. SMITH: For the Fort Garry, which is probably one of the larger centres, we're looking at the equivalent of two staff and one support staff and rent. So that would give them a focus to work from, because much of their work is done with volun teers.

Then if they developed any specific programs where service could be purch ased from them, they would be free to apply to government for something of that sort. But the core funding would be on that order. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The Fort Garry Resource Centre, now did the Minister indi cate that this money will be ongoing? They'v e got it this year; will they have it next year; what other resource centres will be funded in this manner? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, for the Fort Garry on the condition that the basic criteria be met, which are fairly limited from our perspective but where we have to build in some accountabili ty.

The others, we will initially respond when we're approached and then, over time, we will develop criteria for the Outr each in tha t field. MRS. G. HAMMOND: In the Minister's news release, it indicated that provincial funding was 61 ,000 and the Secretary of State was 24,000.00. I believe that the Federal Secretary of State made two grants to the Fort Garry Women's Resource Centre to an amount of 48,000.00. I was wondering if the Mi nister was aware of that. HON. M. SMITH: To our knowledge, there's been nothing for this year and not hing tha t would be considered core funding. Women's Resource Centres 1502

Monday, 7 July, 1986 right across the country have been struggling with this problem. They had been getting the equivalent, I guess, of core funding from Secretary of State, sometimes on a diminishing basis. Some had them from temporary employment programming, but there had never been an agreement, federally or provincially , as to who should bear the responsibility . As far as we were concerned, it was a program that was started by the Federal Government and unilaterally discontinued. They said it wa sn't their responsibili ty.

But there was never any negotiation as to which jurisd iction should pay for core funding for Wome n's Resou rce Centres, and that's been part of our frustration. MRS. G. HAMMOND: In the press release, you were talking about last year's funding which was 61 ,000 from the province and 24,000 from the Secretary of State. What I'm stating is that it was 48,000 from the Secretary of State last year, and that's a considerable difference. I'll ask the Minister a further question on the funding with the Federal Govern ment. I think we might have been into this earlier on in the Estimates.

Is the government actively involved in negotiations with the Federal Government to see how they want to get this type of funding, if the province will do all the core funding and the Secretary of State or the Federal Government then will get into the program type of funding? Are there any ongoing negotiations at this time? HON. M. SMITH: I heard the member ask whether there was negotiation, and then she set what she though t the terms were. MRS. G. HAMMOND: No, I was saying, is that . HON. M. SMITH: Well our problem has been that they have unilaterally determined that they accepted no responsibi lity.

So from our point of view, we hav en't been able to engage in any dialogue over it. There 's just been a unila teral decision at their end. MRS. G. HAMMOND: In spite of it being a unilateral decision, has her department made an effort to get into negotiations about funding for the shelters and the resource centres to see what kind of arrangement can be made, if any? HON. M. SMITH: The shelter issue, we've been under constant discussion at the Social Services Mi nisters' meeting. They're funded somewhat differently than the services that we're talking about here.

Under the Status of Women, there have certainly been direct app roaches to the Secretary of State on the core funding issue with no positive result. On the social service side, there just has been a unil ateral statement over and over again of no responsibility being accepted for core funding. We would prefer a negotiation and discussion. We have not been able to get that type of response, just a refusal to accept responsibili ty. MRS. G. HAMMOND: During the election, it was mentioned that there was going to be funding for community groups, I believe it was. I'm not sure what the wording is.

What type of funding was your party refer ring to, and who will be getting the core funding? HON. M. SMITH: Since most election commitments are longer-term commitments, the detail of that is being worked out, but basically the intent is to help self-help and advocacy groups at the commu nity level, and to include women, seniors and youth. Just how those will be divided up or what the process for accessing will be is being worked out at the moment. MRS. G. HAMMOND: How many resource centres are there both in the city and in rural Manitoba? HON. M. SMITH: The definition is a loose one at the moment.

There are three women's resource centres that would be somewhat similar , one in Thompson, North Winnipeg Wome n's Centre and Fort Garry. But there are many other programs out there that have a component of resource centre functions. MRS. G. HAMMOND: How is the North Winnipeg Women's Resource Centre funded? HON. M. SMITH: They have core area core funding and some project monies from a variety of sources. They hav en't approached us as yet. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I guess this is maybe more hypothetical than I should be asking, but was the Mini ster planning to get core funding in place so these groups could be ongoing?

I guess I'm specifically referring to the North Winnipeg Wome n's Resource Centre because , un less the Core Area In itiative continues - is there funding from year to year from the Core Area, or are they on a five-year plan? Just how do they secure funding? HON. M. SMITH: To my knowledge, no resource centre across the country has been able to plan ahead with any security of funding. it's part of the difficul ty.

This particular group, because they started up under core, would have had no more, no less security than any other core program, which was no security until the new agreement was negotiated; again, I guess they take their chances along with everyone else under the new agreement, which I understand has now been concluded. In the long run, we have indicated that we see these groups as playing an important role. On the other hand, it's one of those types of programs that requires fairly careful design so we can ensure that what are always going to be limited funds are well targeted.

The main principle behind them is the recognition that particular groups in society don't always know how to access services that are out there, and they often suffer from a variety of disadvantages, the most important of which is often a feeling of alienation and isolation. it's been found for some of those gr oups that resource centres provide a first stage of a place to build self-concept, draw strength from a peer group and sort out decisions and opportu nities that are available, whether it's education, training, volunteer work, or just improved quality of life.

So, these are first-stop places where people can get information, peer 1503

Monday, 7 July, 1986 support, and while sorting out their own problems, remain to help other people in that group. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, in the Thompson Centre, where does its funding mainly come from? HON. M. SMITH: We 've been funding them to the level of 77,000.00. They also have access money under the Native Alcohol and Drug Abuse Program, under which they've hired a couple of women to go out to reserves and work with chiefs and bands to develop wife abuse committees on reserves . MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I've got the list in front of me of the shelters - I guess it's centres and shelters - could the Mini ster indicate what kind of funding is being given generally to the Commi ttee on Wife Abuse for the regions, or is the funding going that way still? HON. M. SMITH: That commi ttee has a province-wide board. As a matter of fact, in the past year their Chair has been a non-Winnipeg person. They get the same funding year over year and they are a Mani toba -wide committee.

Again, they'r e an advocacy group that has helped develop some of these volunt eer commi ttees and then they've had the crisis line service. They receive a grant of 189,500.00. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is that allo cated for the regions or is that just for the comm ittee and its staff? HON. M. SMITH: Well, the commi ttee is a province­ wide committee, so they work in the regions. You do have a sheet that gives additional moni es that are given to the regional com mittees.

The Manitoba com mittee - I guess you can think of it as at the front end of the line - it does some education or advocacy to government and for individuals and some organi zation of volunteers. But then once the commi ttees in the regions are organized, they can access the provincial program and the listing of the moni es on the sheet that I distributed means the different regions and the groups within who are receiving subs tantial amounts of mo ney. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Are all the regions now organized and do they all have shelters or organ ized groups set up, as far as crisis lines and that sort of service? HON.

M. SMITH: The crisis shelters, there's the four big ones, then there's the safe homes. The commi ttees provide the crisis line and the peer counselling and referral information and referral public education. They do a lot of public education in their own communi ties. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Are the regions finding it difficult - when they're dealing with so many volunteers - in keeping their volunt eers and able to survive? When they start to enl arge, are they able to keep their volunt eers to keep the program going, or is it a matter then of starting to hire staff? HON. M.

SMITH: In some areas a lot of the initiatives started with volunteer groups. There has been some burnout and some turno ver. In other areas, the initiative came from our coordinator to try to ensure that these comm ittees covered the whole province. The actual funding requir es joint planning by our staff and the local commi ttees and the attempt has been to keep some kind of balance. In other words, they get the money where they have been able to recruit and hold volunteers. They don't get it unl ess they do.

We hope that the volunt eer component can be sustained, but as with many other programs, in a sense, we have to learn as we go. We think there's some advantage in the volunteer component because of the terrific enr ichment of the program. Often a woman in need, who feels some stigma and so on, will approach a volunteer that they feel is not part of any official group, more readily than they might an established office. Other people might prefer the profe ssionalism or anonymity of an office.

I think one of the strengths of this program in Manitoba has been our ability to date of keeping the mix of volunt eer groups and staff services . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Portage la Prairie has secondary stage housing. Do any of the other regions, outside of what was mentioned in Winnipeg, have that housing? HON. M. SMITH: Thomps on has some. MRS. G. HAMMOND: How are the women in the rural areas managing as far as being in safe homes, where there isn't secondary stage housing, and where there is such distances to travel in many cases; what is happening with these women?

Are they having to go back to a situation more often than say might happen in the city where housing might be more readily ava ilable? HON. M. SMITH: Well, we're learning as we go. Each program is evaluated . The second-stage housing is going to continue expansion through MHR C and where women who are on welfare can use their payments to access the MHR C housing. I think it's a question of us allo wing the system to grow at a slow and thorough rate based on need and not letting it get, in a sense, too rich, and then find that the need drops off.

In other words, we're building slowly and trying to be sur e that all the components are there. MRS. G. HAMMOND: What kind of advocacy are ther e for these women to access lawyers, day care, just generally living, possibly training or retra ining? HON. M. SMITH: We're finding th e cooperation between the peer groups, the local women's groups and the local health and community service regions working very well.

That's where the coordinators of day care, home care, all the variety of services and the local police probabation people, is working well; that is the function of the volunt eer groups to help them access that type of service. MRS. G. HAMMOND: What kind of training are the advocates given in all the areas, and who does the training? HON. M. SMITH: We're negotiating with New Careers to get some more specific training; but the abuse groups 1504

Monday, 7 July, 1986 thems elves, the comm ittees, do hold workshops and in some respect - the Manitoba Comm ittee on Wife Abuse has done a lot - in some cases the nonprof essionals have probably acquired a deg ree of hands-on expertise not necessarily equalled in the professional communit y. But I think it's a case of where we've tried to pull the two groups together as much as we can and have them learn from one another . MRS. G. HAMMOND: Do many of these women - or any of them - after getting this expertise, are they hired when there's money for staff for these groups? HON. M. SMITH: Well some are.

I think one of the historical patterns for women is often that confidence and experience attained in volunteer work then stands them in good stead to access paid emplo yment or focus training. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you. I was going to zero in specifically on the Central Region and ask a few questions on that. From what I gather is that the funding for the Portage Women's Shelter Incorporation by the government would be $51 ,000; is that correct? And the South Cent ral Com mit tee on Family Viole nce would be $36,000.00.

Ok ay, the South Central Comm ittee on Family Violence, I know that Morden and Winkler got together and they have a shelter over there or they have the family violence counselling available. So did Altona. Is Altona still operating or would all of this mon ey, this $36,000 be going to the Winkler-Morden area, or are there any other areas within the Central Region which would be receiving some remuneration from this area? HON. M. SMITH: The Altona group are still functioning but they haven't asked for mon ey. MR. A. BROWN: Well that's strange. HON. M. SMITH: My hat's off to the communi ty. MR. A.

BROWN: I know some of these service organi zations are getting quite invol ved with this, so are the churches. it's a program, incid ental ly, which I want to compliment the Min ister on. lt seems to be going over very well and it's very well appreciated by the communities. So I have heard no criticism. The only criticism I have heard is, where are we going to get the few dollars from so that we can continue operation? So with the Winkler-Morden group, would they be the ones receiving this $36,000 grant or is any other community involved? HON. M. SMITH: That's basically the Winkler-Morden areas.

I don't know how far their Outreach works. Those are probably central communities for a lot of people who live in the surrounding area. MR. A. BROWN: lt certainly is the area which has, by far, the largest population out that way, so you would be servicing most of the community by having one in Portage, I suppose, and one in that particular area.

Problems with the Native situation - I suppos e that some of this would fall under Thompson and some under Parklands and some in the Norman region - are we servicing the Native population fairly adequately as far as the Minister is concerned, or is there a lot left to be desired? HON. M. SMITH: On the off-reserve, Thompson has been certainly servicing a lot of Native women in its program and it has also been providing an Outreach to develop commit tees on reserve.

Then in the city we have put a Family Violence Coordinator at the Ma Mawi Wi Chi ltata Centre to initiate development of culturally appropria te services in the whole family violence area. With regard to the status Indians, one of our big problems has been that on-reser ve Indians are the responsi bility of the Federal Government and the Federal Government has not, to date, seen fit to fund any of these programs.

Not only that, because of the dispute that the reserve Child and Family Service Agencies and other reserve organizations have had with the Federal Government in terms of the adequa cy of funding for the services that they've undertaken to provide, until that gets resolved expecting the reserves to make many advances in this field is probably too much to expect. In spite of that, the Indian Child and Family Service Agencies have been doing quite a lot of work with their own people in education programs in the abuse area - both child abuse and wife abuse - or family violence, as we call it. MR. A.

BROWN: I notice, Mr . Chairman, that the total budget is relatively small. We're talking about $1 .665 million. Is the Mini ster negotiating with the Federal Government and attempting to receive some funding from them, or is this amount too small for the Minister to see if she can get some federal funding for it? HON. M. SMITH: We've been discussing this issue quite heatedly at Social Service Mini sters meetings and at Status of Women meetings at the federal-provincial level. We have an application in under the Canada Assistance Plan to see if we can get some cost sharing.

To date, nothing has happened and I understand that the wife battering group under the Status of Women got dissolved and referred over to Health and Welfare. So, real ly , I shouldn't perhaps refer to that one specifically here. But it's been very frustrating to get any action at that level beyond the sort of collection of sort of a list of pr oblems. We hav en't yet been able to get a commitment to the continuous services required to add ress this issue. MR. A. BROWN: Do other provinces have the same type of program or a program similar as what we have in Manitoba? HON. M.

SMITH: Most of the other provinces have done a bit under public education or have either developed shelters or are looking to that. There's no province that we're aware of that has developed as 1505

Monday, 7 July, 1986 much at rural Outreach or as balanced a program as we have. In going for the shelter option, they tend to develop a very crisis-oriented service and also build up the most expensive type of service. What we're trying to do is provide the continuum, both geographically and in terms of costliness of service, so that we get the best value for our dollars. We're often called on to make presentations to show just the steps that we've taken and the way in which we've developed this communi ty-based network. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(e)( 1) - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Looking at the list that was handed out tod ay, I no ti ce tha t the Mi nned osa committee didn't receive an increase. Was there any reason for that? HON. M. SMITH: The amounts are worked out in a negotiated way at the local level. There has to be some justification in terms of num bers of calls, identified cases and so on. In a sense, we don't determine that from the centre. We've put a cap on the allocation per region and require that they come up with a joint plan with the staff in the region, but beyond that, we let them use their own discretion as to how the monies are allocated.

I should say that we also feel that a great deal has been accomplished on a relatively slim budget, but I do want to add that the shelter per diem rates and the expenditu res there are funded through the - they would show up in the Economic Security budget, not in ours, so that this is the non-residential package of services. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Under the Eastman region, that EVCO, did that then evolve into the Steinbach Family Crisis Centre? Is that what happened there? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 4. (e)( 1) -p ass; 4. (e) (2)- pa ss; 4.(e)(3)- pass. 4.(f), Children's Special Services - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ma ybe the Mi nister could give us a rundown of this particular area. I belie ve that St. Amant is proba bly the ma jor expenditure, but maybe the Minis ter could give us a rundown of just exactly what Children's Special Services entails. I would like to give notice that we will be asking for a detailed acco unting of External Agencies. HON. M. SMITH: The last question first. The External Agencies, St.

Amant is the only one receiving funding under that. This group has been set up in this department to provide general program dir ec tion, standards and evaluation for services to mentally hand icapped childr en and their families. The services are delivered by regional operations. So this is the central coordinating role. MR. A. BROWN: What makes (

f) separa te from the other - where were we - (b), I guess it was, the other mentally retarded programs? Why do we have St. Amant in a special area? HON. M. SMITH: Tha t's a good question. The focus is on childr en and families here and the intent is that this group develop what we call generic services for children. Ins tead of taking their labels of mentally handicapped or physically handicapp ed or socially disadvantaged or whatever, what we want to do is have this group responsible for providing all the special needs of children and families beyond what would be handled by The Child and Family Service Act.

This will provide things like respite for parents of special needs kids, some referral to day cares and so on that will meet their special needs, that type of thing, infant stimulation programs for the youngsters. MR. A. BROWN: How many child ren have we staying at St. Amant now, and if the Mini ster could give me a breakdown as to what level of severely handicapp ed or whatever? HON. M. SMITH: it's a total of 268, plus six who are in on a temporary stay respites, for a total of 274.

Up to age 8: 39 profound, 9 severe and 3 mode rate; age 9 to 17 : 76 profound, 38 severe, 10 moderate and 1 mild; age 18 to 26: 56 profound, 14 severe, 4 moderate and 2 mild; age 27 to 35: 9 profound, 3 severe and 1 mild; over 36: 2 profound and 1 mild. 17 6 of the total are childr en, so that leaves almost 100 adult. MR. A. BROWN: What is the Minister's plan for St. Amant? Under the Welcome Home Program, how many persons will she feel are going to be moved out of St. Amant, if any? HON. M. SMITH: We have no direct plan to downsize.

What we are doing is providing families with more supports in the early stages of their having a disabled youngs ter, things like the Infant Stimula tion Program, specialized day care, speciali zed education in the schools, respite care for the parents, some use of foster parents so that the intake at St. Amant will no doubt slow down. We haven't projected at this point any goal, but we're monitoring the situation as we go. lt could in time be used - well, it's part of the total institutional care resource in the province.

Si nce we've had more services and supp orts in the communi ty, ten parents have asked for their child ren to go back into their homes from St. Amant. Howe ver, there will be some moved from MD C to St. Amant. it's quite, as institutions go, it's a very well appoi nted - the physical facility is in very good condition and it has a lot of additional amenities, as any of you who visted there would know, so that as we try to stabilize our institutional and non-institutional populations, it will no doubt continue to be used fully . MR. A.

BROWN: Can the Mi nister tell me whether there is an incr ease of the handicapped, whether there is a need for mor e people? We all realize tha t the handicapped are living lo nger,

whereas most of them used to die before the age of 18 . They are now getting to be old er. Can the Mini ster tell me whether there is 1506

Monday, 7 July, 1986 an increase for demand for extra beds or is the population relatively stable? HON. M. SMITH: There's not a simple answer to that question. Mo re disabled people are being kept alive through medical science. They are, through impro ved health care, being kept alive longer; but at the same time we're developing more skill and options for care in the commun ity, either support to the family or to foster families or with group homes and so on. There's a phenomenon that we've identified in the Welcome Home Program, and that is the aging care giver along with the disabled, living longer.

Many of their parents, who've managed quite well through most of the young person's life, thems elves are facing a more infirm stage and some of th ose people re quir e alternative care. We have no fixed ratio between institutional and community care that we feel is a goal, where for the time being we are downsizing ins titutional care where we can show that the community care is adequate and we're providing as much preventive, developmental support service in the commun ity for the young ones. We keep reading the figures and seeing where we are.

I think our princi ples are that the disabled have a right to li ve in the leasr : ,,strictiv e environment, compatible with their need for protection and special services. So we're trying to build in the full range of options for them. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Where would the funding come from for something like the Special Olympics? What department would that be? MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe that's Fitness and Sports, under the Min istry of Health. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Would it come under that, rather than your department? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, you could consider that in the Estim ates there. The Mi nister of Commun ity Services.

HON. M. SMITH: Yes, because when we talk about generic approach, we're saying in time special housing should come under Housing and special transport under Tr ansportat ion, special recreation under Recreation. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(f)(1) - the Member for Niakwa. The member could just raise his hand; don't panic. MR. A. KOVNA TS: Thank you very much. I was just following the procedure I thought to be prop er. I just didn't want this item passed before I had an opportunity of asking the Min ister a couple of questions on it. Really , it was brought about in an

article that I had read over the weekend concerning a group called L'Arche that are in the province and doing a wonderful job, by the way; but it goes back to group homes, somewhat to the group home and if the Min ister would prefer, I could ask these questions under Minister's Salary, but I thought while she had the staff here tha t it was somewhat in line and not out of order .

If the Minister would just nod her head saying it's okay, I'll proceed. 1 would just like to find out, on these group homes, and I do have a couple in my constituency and I went and checked them out because after the last discussion I became more and more int erested in it. I have one on Cherry Crescent which is operated by L' Arche.

That's not the correct pronunciation, en fram;:ais, L' Arche, Winnipeg Incorporation at 20 Cherry Crescent; and the other one is under Amber Homes Incor porated at 11 71 Patterson Street, which are both in my constituency and both very well kept locations and close to all of the amenities, shopping, schools, playgrounds and things of that nature.

So I've had my eyes opened a little bit and I'm checking it out, but I would like to find out from the Minis ter who chooses the people who are going to live in these locations, who pays for the locations, who pays for the people who service these locations, the people that look after them and do the parents have any say as to who's going to be moved to what locations, if there's any choice by the parents, or is this done by the institution in their choice of moving them out of the institution into group homes? I have some other questions, but I think that's enough to get started. HON. M.

SMITH: I'll start with the planning process. A pl an is de veloped in a cooperative way with Community Services staff, parents, service providers, any significant others related to the indi vidual, and the person the mselves, to the degree they're able to contribute and/or an advocate. Their proposal or plan then goes to a regional priori zat ion comm ittee. When the location is determined, volunteer groups often initia te and may contribute some of the mortgage money but failing that, we take out a mortgage under the MH RC and build in the repayment into the per diems that are paid.

The levels of need of the individuals are sorted out and there's a different per diem payment based on their level of need, the need for their supervision. There's a 24-hour planning process to ensure that all their protection needs are adequately planned for. The staff would be hired by the board, we set up a board in a group home. lt's paid by the board with the monies that they get for basic capital plus per diems. Our department pays a sliding scale on capital up to a ceiling per day and we have a sliding scale per diem based on the kind of need required.

The board has that budget and then they hire and pay the staff. MR. A. KOVNATS: Can the Min ister advise how a particular location is chosen? HON. M. SMITH: The volunt eer boards, do most of the hunting for location and then they would submit it to the regional group and the licensing group in our department and then if there's any zoning requirements with the municipal government they would go through that as well. MR. A. KOVNATS: Are locations chosen to facilitate the background of some of the people that might be going to be living in these locations?

Might I just suggest somebody of Roman Catholic background in a Roman Catholic area. I don't mean to be flighty about this but 1507 j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j j

Monday, 7 July, 1986 are their needs looked after? Are their needs looked after for their rel igious bac kground, their eth nic background and things of that nature? HON. M. SMITH: In the past, there was not an orderly system for planning for individuals and often families were faced with either managing at home with no support, or of placement in an institutition. And then a series of volunteer groups started to try to initia te options and sort of seek out people who they could accommodate so that there may not have been any control on the placement according to the factors you've identified.

But part of our whole Welcome Home and Special Children's Services planning process is to accommodate the very factors that you have named. The priority is for people to be located near their community of origin and as close as possible to relevant services and there's a lot of sensitivity to religious background, cultural background. lt's not 100 per cent, you know, there's not a separate ethnic house there for everyone but there are Jewish homes and Catholic homes and non-Catholic. So there is an attempt to be as sensitive to those factors as possible. MR. A.

KOVNATS: I understand and the Minister has giv en me the right answers. I do app reciate the comments that she has made. Can the Min ister advise whether any of these homes, particularly the one on Cherry Crescent, which is very, very close to a complete franc;:ais school - are these considerations because - would the children have a choice as to what school that they will be atten ding and who makes that choice for them? HON. M. SMITH: We think that that's an adult home so that the question of school attendance wouldn't be as crucial.

However, to get back to the educational issue, the education system under bill whatever-it-was in the Seventies has the responsibility of providing for special needs childr en. We've been working with the Department of Education and increasingly with the school boards to define a process whereby some of those questions are answered. I think it's fair to say they are not all answered yet.

The question of the right of a parent or a child to choose over against the right of a school board to set up programs of a certain size for efficiencies and type of program is still being debated but we're working with that group and encouraging them to address those issues, and I think with more and more disabled people remaining in the community those school boards who don't initiate on their own will find that there's parental pressure to resolve those issues.

I think there's already the odd case where a parent is insisting on the right for a child to go to a local school and the school board are saying, well we can't really provide adequately at that school but we can within our divisio n. So those are ed ucation issues whic h I think would be approp riately raised during the Estima tes of my colleague on the other side of the table. MR. A. KOVNATS: The Minister is probably right that the y should be raised under the Department of Education but this is the first opportunity that I've had.

I thought I would ask a few questions of that nature because when I've asked que stions in other depa rtments the y keep refe rring me to other departments so I thought I would . . . A MEMBER: You're getting the runaro und. MR. A. KOVNATS: That's right. Wel l, I don't like to use the word runaround. The Mi nister has never given me the runaround yet. This might be the first. HON. M. SMITH: Is that a challenge, Abe? MR. A. KOVNATS: Well, it might be, it might be. I had just made those remarks and I was sorry that I was away when the other parts came up.

One other part, the actual training of the people tha t are going to be looking after these homes. Whose responsibility will it be to actually train them because, you know, you're moving them out of a facility where they've got very, very highly trained personnel to work with them in all regards. And now you're moving them into a smaller location. I think this location on Cherry is going to have five persons living there. How much personnel does it require to look after those five people? Do we balance it off that - is it really worth it?

I know that there's great benefits into moving them out of inditutions and into the areas but is the cost going to be that prohi bitive compa ratively? HON. M. SMITH: The staffing in the homes is what we call differentiated, in other words, some people with higher level of training than others. There's also a network of support services, behaviour management or crisis intervention, medical help or mental retardation worker advice. So that there's those two elements. The actual specific training - Core Area Initiative has been funding for two years now a training program.

There were 28 grads the first year, there's 30 now being trained. In addition, we have a cooperative training contra ct with Association of Community Living where we're providing joint in-service and skill upgrading classes. We're very conscious of the need to train people in the community to provide the support services and are working closely with the Department of Education in planning ahead.

We also have a number of specialists who will be coming on - we mentioned them under the Welcome Home Program - some speech therapists, behaviour counsellors, etc. , because we realize we need that specialist resource out in the regions. MR. A. KOVNATS: Just to finish it off now, the Mi nis ter has suggested all kinds of experts to assist in the training of the people moving into these group homes. I appre ciate that. I have to be talked into it. lt sounds like a real good program and I accept it, at least until such time I see that it's not working. I see that it has every oppor tunity of working.

What type of facilities - and, you know, sports has been my background, and I think that sports is a great therapy and a great builder of people. I think this is what we need. Do we have anything special set up in recreation or sports to accommodate these people, not just in my location but throughout the province? HON. M. SMITH: On our provincial steer ing comm ittee on Welcome Home, we have a representation from the 1508 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Monday, 7 July, 1986 Provincial Recreation AssociatioC Oause we expect the generic services, as it were, the recreation services to meet the needs of the people in their area. They are also showing a special int erest in the recreational needs of this group. There is of course the pione er work done by Special Olympics in the commun ity to meet the recrea tional needs of this group. Again, I think it's an area that has almost open-ended possibility for life enrichment. MR. A. KOVNATS: I'm not going to get into the Special Olympics, although I think it' s a great thing and I'm glad the Mi nister mentioned it.

I would be very strongly in support of it, because of its therapeutic value for one thing. You know, these people should have the opportunity to excel in whatever they can. They've got so li ttle going for them any way, but I think th at some thing like this is a gr eat thing. I strongly recommend it, and I hope that the Minister would support the Special Olympics to a great degree. I think that's about all I wanted, and I thank the Min ister for allowing me to make those few comments.

She's relie ved my mind on a few of the questions and a few of the things that were bothering me and, not to prolong it anymore, I just say thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(f)(1)- pass; 4.(f)(2)-p ass; 4.(f)(3)­ pass; 4.(f)(4)-pass. Resolution No. 32: Resolved that there be granted to Her Ma jesty a sum not exce eding $89,0 11 ,000 for Community Services, Child and Family Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 87- pass. The next item, Resolution No. 33, Page 35, Item 5., Corrections.

I would think perhaps since we're going to interrupt the proce edings, maybe the Mi nister can make an introductory sta tement. I suspect the Member for Rhineland was going to ask for one anyhow. Then we can interrupt the proceedings and go to Private Memb ers' Hour when we return. Is that agreed? The Minis ter of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: My Deputy is trying to upda te me on some reorgan ization that we've been doing in this area. What I think I will do is present the organization as it's here in my backgrou nd, and then I'l l provide you with a little comment on the reorganization after dinner.

This area has moved from 480 to 490 staff years. Basically , it provides care and rehabilitation programs for inma tes of adult correctional institutions. The Adminis tration, 095A, unchanged in staff years, 10 each year, and the increases are basically just salary adjustments.

This is where we have the central adminis trative direction for both adult and juvenile communi ty and institutional correctional programs. lt operates under the supervision of an ADM and provides dir ection to juvenile corrections, probation services, and adult correctional institutions. 1t is also responsible for providing support services, including investigations, inspections and audits, general and specialized admin functions.

As I say, it's the same 10 staff that we had last year, one ADM; one chief investigator; one senior policy analyst; one policy analyst, a non-senior one, I guess; two admin and financial support; two clerical; and two term. We could move on to adult corrections if the members have no questions on the Administration. MR. A. BROWN: Mr . Chairman, I would like to have a chart, if I could, of the structure of Corrections in each and every area. HON. M. SMITH: You've got it alr eady. MR. A. BROWN: Is the chart in there? Okay. I don't know if I have that one with me; I probably have that one in my office downstairs.

That's fine, if we could have that for later. HON. M. SMITH: You have it alrea dy. MR. A. BROWN: I don't think we want to move on, Mr . Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The time being 4:30, it's time to interrupt proceedings for Private Members' Hour. We will return at 8 o'clock. SUPPLY - FINANCE MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: This

section of the Committee of Supply, we'll be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Finance. We shall begin with a statement from the Ho nourable Mi nis ter who is responsible for the department HON. E. KOST YRA: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. I would like to make a few remarks on the introduction of the Estima tes of the Department of Finance. Copies of the supplementary information with respect to the operation of the department have been made available well in advance of the review of these Estimates this yea r.

I beli eve tha t providing this more deta il ed information to members will allow hopefully for a better unde rstanding of operations of the department I'd like to br iefly cite a number of ongoing activities that may be of interest to members. lt is the intention of government to require all departments to prepare and submit Estimate supplements prior to the review of their Estimates. I expect that these supplements will be available for all departments by next year.

The government is moving towards standardizing the guide lines for annual depa rtmental reports. lt is the intention that these documents will show year-over­ year expenditure compa risons, explanation of major variances and other sign ificant operational informa tion. These annual reports, when used in association with Government Estimates and Public Accounts , will make overall government operations more understandable in terms of results achieved and public funds expended.

Staff in my department and the Provincial Auditor have been working with the Canadian Institute of Ch artered Accou nta nts in its studie s on general reporting principles and standards of disclosure. The purpose of this review is to establish uniform standards of presentation and di sclosure for all Provincia l Government . . . 1509

Monday, 7 July, 1986 Staff are in the process of dev eloping a com pr ehens ive manageme nt practice guide tha t establishes policies and expectations for all managers within the government. This guide is in the final review and edit stage, and will consolidate and build on existing management practices and policies, and will outline the basic requir ements of managers in one unde rstandable reference source. Mr.

Chairman, with these few remarks, which I have provided a copy of to the Memb er for Morris, I would be pleased to invite questions from members regarding the Estimates of the Department of Finance and ask staff to come in. MR. CHAIRMAN: We shall now hear from the critic of the Opposition. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. Mr. Chairman, let me begin by thanking the Mi nister for a copy of his notes. Let me say at the outset that our experience with the new Minister of Finance hasn't been altogether negative.

We found him cooperative in many respects , certa inly in providing information that we've requested in a whole host of areas; so I wanted to begin my comments by saying tha t type of cooperation is much appreciated. Nevertheless, Mr. Chairman, I think that I have to be totally candid at this point in time.

I'm absolutely agh ast that the Minis ter, in introducing his Estimates, would just give us a page-and-a-half outline as to some of the admi nistrative activities tha t are taking place within his department; and yet would not feel any compunction whatsoever to talk about some of the major financial issues of our time; particularly when we look at the deficit of the province; when we look at the massive increases in expenditures; when we look at our economy and see that we have - not only within the context of the nation, but certainly within the Province of Manitoba - some major concerns.

Before we moved on in any great depth in this Estima tes process, it would be incumbent upon the Mi nister to tell us how this economy within the province is going to be performing in the next little while. How are the revenues by way of taxation going to be accumulating, such tha t we can leave here with some hope or at least some understanding that this half-a­ billion dollar deficit that we've now had for the last one, two, three, four, five years will be something that we will not have to deal with any longer? So, Mr .

Chairman, I guess I'm somewhat surpr ised that the Min ister, in leading off in his Estimates, just simply lays before us a one-page handout on some of the admi nistrative changes within his department, and yet sees fit not to comment on any of the broader , terribly imp ortant issues to the people of this province. Last Frid ay, Mr . Chairman, the Mi nister of Finance tabled the preliminary financial report for the year end, March 31, 1986. What surprised me the most was the matter-of-fact attitude that, not only members opposite but indeed, to some degree, the media displayed towards this revelation.

In a sense, Mr. Chairman, as I said earli er, it's the fifth year in which this government has brought forward deficit figures in the area of half­ a-billion dollars. Yet, we're to the point now within this province, we seem to be accepting this figures as commonpla ce. it's as if, Mr. Chairman, we've established this new plateau of debt; almost as if government, particularly the NDP Gov er nment, see ms to be saying to Manitobans, well if we hold it at a half -a-billion dollar level, obviously we are doing a good job.

Obviously we are doing our job in a responsible fashion. 1t seems to be begging the question, Mr. Chairman, if that's the case, then the NDP would be saying, in effect, and this Minister would be say ing, well if we moved up into the $700 mill ion or $800 million area, then we could be criticized. I mean, after all, it has been close to the half-a-billion dollar figure for the last numb er of years and by every thing they lead me to belie ve, Mr . Chairman, there will be no signif icant attempt on their part to reduce below that level.

So it's sort of like it's locked in; and, as Manitobans, we should be prepared to accept it. I think, Mr . Chairman, some people - and I believe the Mi nister of Finance is beginning to realize what is happening with respect to interest. it's beginning to grow at an accelerating rate; this year, out to a figure of $380 million. That's combining the statutory-debt figure in the printed Estimate, plus the rentals under Manitoba Pr operties Inc., $380 million, Mr. Chairman. To drive my point home, Mr.

Chairman, I'd just like to tell you, in case people forget and for ihe benefit of the new members - those who are collected here today - I would just like to read one series of numbers at this time and tell you how the public debt has increased over the last seven years. Mr. Chairman, in 19 79, the cost of servicing our debt at tha t year was $68.6 million. In 19 80, it moved to 81. 9 million; 19 81, 78.8 million; 19 82, 11 4 million. Then we moved into the new gov ernment, Mr . Chairman.

In 19 83, representing the first Budget year of the new government, it was 161. 8 million - I digress only for a second to say it certainly wasn't their responsibility - but year end, 1982-83; 19 84, 239.7; 19 84-85, 224.5; 19 85-86 - this last year that we've just comple ted - 299 million, Mr. Chairman. That's an estimate because we haven't seen the final figures with respect to that year. The forecast for 19 86-87, the year in which we presently are, 381 million. In the space of nine years, the cost of servicing our debt has jumped from 68.6 to 380 million - an increase, Mr. Chairman, of almost sixfold.

Little wonder those people who are watching governments across the land, watching the fiscal situation in this province, members oppo site who have some under st andin g - Mr . Chairman, in my view there aren't a whole host of them - I think are beginning to realize the serious consequence of continuing to allow this deficit to stay in the area of a half-a-billion dollars, because as was indicated, a full one-third of our increase in revenues was going just to service debt. Well, Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to belabour it at this point in time, but every opportunity that I have to put that type of information on the reco rd, I will exercise. Since the beginning of this Session, Mr . Chairman, we've been calling for projections as to where the economy and the related di rect and indirect taxation flows, where that whole scenario is headed. The reason we ask that, Mr . Chairman, is because we fear for the health of the fiscal arrangements of this province. How can we continue to spend at this level, see whatever increase in revenues that we have coming within the 1510

Monday, 7 July, 1986 province being directed in a greater fashion toward servicing debt, and yet having to sit here and listen to the Government of the Day for the last five years say trust us; the economy is going to pick up; things will turn around; the Conference Board says this; the Royal Bank of Canada in their monthly report says another thing; the times are improving for Manitoba. Mr. Chairman, I'v e sat in this House like you have for five years - this is my fifth Session - and even though the words change a little bit, the message is always the same - trust us, times will be better. Mr.

Chairman, that is why since the beginning of this Ses si on, we've been pushing so hard, the Minis ter of Finance and the First Min ister, to lay before us and the people of the province the forecasts associated with this economic - what's the proper word? - revival, as described by the members opposite, or this economic hope. Mr . Chairman, we just can't sit here any longer and allow year after year a half-a -billion dollar deficit eating into at such an increasing rate the marginal incr eases in revenue that seem to be flowing into the coffers of the province. So, Mr .

Chairman, I would hope that during this Estimates process, the Min ister of Finance would be somewhat candid within this area of foreca sting, and as a province, if we do not have some type of plan where we know where we're going, well, I hope the Minister would be honest enough to say so. We're locking in these debt payments out for 20 years, and yet it seems to me that we have no idea whatsoever what the revenues will be for two years, let alone five. Mr .

Chairman, the Minister in his intr oductory remarks made mention of what some of the admin istrative duties, some of the attempts within the department to provide greater informa tion, some of the attempts within government to standard ize reports, such as annual reports, suppleme ntary information leading into Estimates. Mr . Chairman, that's all well and good; we accept that.

We know that the Auditor of the province has been pushing for that type of general information, and we're glad to see not only by the Min ister's comments today but also by the comments that the Min ister made in Comm ittee here some three weeks ago, that there are plans to have all departments of govern ment give annual reports and supplementa ry Estimate information within two years. I believe there are only a handful of departments at this point in time who do not provide that information. I'm curious why we do not have today an annual report for the Department of Finance.

I know it's in the printing process, but I would ask him whether or not - 1 can't recall whether this is a new initiative, firstly; and, secondly , if it isn't, why would it be when we're in almost the middle of July that we do not have that annual report laid before us? Obvious ly, it's go t something to do with more than del ays in the printing process. So, Mr . Chairman, once the Min ister has an opportunity to expound upon that, I would welcome his answer. Also, Mr. Chairman, a little over a year ago, the credit rating of this province dropped to an A-plus standing. - (I nterjection) - Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister says two years ago. I think it was a little over a year ago, a year ago three months ago more or less, but we can deba te that afterward. Mr . Chairman, I haven't heard an awful lot about this issue, but I would ask the Mi nister whether 151 1 or not the rating agencies are prov iding another analysis of the Manitoba fiscal situation? I would think after again another year-end report coming in at 529 million deficit, another projection of 489, that inde ed the rating agencies would again want to look at our credit ra ting.

I, again, would ask the Minister whether or not - and I will ask him in more detail later - he would share with us specifically what the rating agencies are saying at this point in time either in a formal or an informal sense. Mr. Chairman, last year during the Estimates process, my former colleague, the Member for Turtle Mountain, Mr . Ransom, indicated that over the first four years of this government's life, that in gross spending terms, that gross spending had increased 49 percent, versus a gross buildup of the economy of 30 percent.

When you factor out inflation, he came to 21 percent real spending incr ease versus 5 percent real growth in the econo my. Of course, that's just another variation of, I suppose, an indi cator of how it is that the province is gradually sinking into greater, greater depths of fiscal debt. Yet, Mr. Chairman, one year later - and I can remember the former Minister of Finance chastising us for using those first four years - and reminding us how bad the first two years were, the first two years that government was in place, how downtrodden the economy was and yet, Mr .

Chairman, I think it's important that this Minis ter have these figures provided to him. Over the last three years - just one seco nd, Mr . Chairman - yes, there's been a 240 percent incr ease in the Public Debt figure alone. So, Mr. Chairman, I think we can begin to set aside those first two, as the NDP would call them, depression years in their term, and look at the last three.

We'd realize that the last two of these years, the NDP themselves have indicated - certai nly they did during the election campaign - they have been good years; that this province has performed well compared to other provinces in the land and yet it's not being reflected, Mr. Chairman, in the revenues. Ma ybe that's why members opposite are beginning to call in louder cadence for some review of taxes because I think they feel deep down that there's an awful lot of economic activity that's escaping the tax regulations of this land. So, Mr.

Chairman, I think it's imp ortant tha t the Minis ter, when we're discussing his Estimates, realizes that the tenor of my remarks will be more dir ected to general policy with respect to where his government is going in terms of deficits. We'd like to have a much deeper understanding of the forecasts of this revival of the economy and we'd like to know how it is that we'll be able to pay back some of this debt over the ensuing years. Mr. Chairman, with those brief remarks I look forward to this process over the next few days.

Because the Mi nis ter has provided the supplementary information with respect to his department, there won't be a lot of necessity to move into specific details with respect to staff years, so I look forward to a wide-ranging discussion on pol icy matters. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair would now invite the members of the departmental staff to kindly take their respective pla ces.

Monday, 7 July, 1986 Deferring Budget Item No. 1.(

a) relating to the Minister 's Salary as the last item to be considered by this Committee of Supply, we shall start with Item No. 1.(b)

(1) Administration and Finance, Executive Suppor t: Salaries. The Minister of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to make a couple of comme nts in resp onse to the question the member asked just as staff are comin g down . Let me first say that I appreciate his comments with respect to the overall financial situation of the province and in terms of his general concerns with respect to the ongoing deficit that's one that we on this side share . I would just point out to him that unfortunately the solutions to those problems aren't easy.

I know on many occasions that he and a few other members on that side stand apart from most of the other members but I just want to review for the member that in this past budget , when we increased the number of tax es such as taxes with respect to large corporations, taxes with respect to banks , taxes on interprovincial pipeline companies , it was members opposite that criticized us for those tax increases saying, we shouldn 't have increased the large corporate tax.

The Member for Brandon West said we shouldn't have put the tax on the interprovincial pipelines and there were others that complained about the tax on banks. So we tried to deal with it in terms of taxation and increased taxes . Some members - and I say, not the two members who are present on the front benches right now because neither of them have made those points - but other members have saying, you shouldn 't have increased those taxes.

And when you come to the spending side , because obviously to deal with the deficit, only one of two things can happen: (1) you have to increase revenues, or (2) you have to decrease expenditures. We deal on the expenditure side - and I went through this during the Budget when I closed the debate on the Budget - that just about every member on that side of the House , Mr. Chairman, outside of the Member for Morris and a few others, asked for higher spending, raised issues with respect to specific departments or specific programs calling for more money .

In fact I provided a tally as best I could at that time - it was very difficult because those things were coming out, not one a day, but there was like a dozen a day from members opposite - put a tally on that spending and it amounted to a couple hundred million dollars more than what's presently in this year's expenditure . I don't want to go over that ground again but I just point that out to the member opposite even though he - and I give him credit for that - was not one of tho se involved in that bidding war.

Most of his other colleag ues on that side talked about areas that they thought where there should be more spending. We've just seen that lately in this Chamber when we were dealing with the situation with respect to the University of Manitoba .

Just to add to that are the points we've made on a number of occasions with respect to the other major source of revenue for the Province of Manitoba, and that is, Transfer Payments from the Federal Government; be the equalization or EPF where we're saying that the impact of those on the overall financial situation in the provinc e is quite serious and that, in part, adds to our difficulties in terms of current deficits and how we look at the future.

So I just raise those points because I know the member sincerely believes in what he's saying but he knows - even though he would rather not admit it and I'm sure won 't on the record - that there is a lot of inconsistencies with many of his colleagues who consistently call for higher spending and more spending in a variety of areas , or those that criticize any of the taxes that we imposed in this Budget , and they were limited. They were limited to, other than cigarett e taxes, limited to taxes on larger corpo ratio ns.

The other point I want to make , and again I don 't want to go over old ground, but we provided this information in the Budge t Address that while we're all concerned about the level of debt in Manito ba and the deficit, when one reviews that in the Canadian context of other provinces, one finds that we are not significantly out of line with what has developed as the norm within Canada .

In fact, if you look at it from the other sta ndp oint of looking at the ability to raise revenue, the tax 2+ion power of a province and to the extent that people in a pro vince can absorb that, we are not in as good a position as other provinces in Canada to raise revenue as others who even have higher deficits proportionate or higher levels of per capita debt. The other point is, we know that this situati on is one that has to be worked on and we certainly look to making significant changes over the mid- term with respect to the overall def icit.

But you have to keep those things in some kind of perspect ive and the perspective is, that we are not out of line wit hin the Canadi an context. When one looks at something like average per capita expenditures - becaus e one can argue that maybe we're spending too much - you 'll find that we're not out of line with the majority of provinces in Canada . So I just want to put those few remar ks back on the record because they have a place on the recor d, and I know that the member opposite knows what I talk of.

But I think maybe he should spend some time with other of his colleagues who don 't agree with his positio n and his concern and how one deals with that. There was a question asked with respect to the annual report and if you 'll just give me a moment, I'll just get the detail on that and provide it to the member. HON. E. KOSTYRA: In regard to the Annual Financ ial Report, we happen to have a copy of it right now. It's titled "Financial Report " for the last year. It's not a new document , it's been out for about five or six years now, and it's no late r than it is normally .

It does come toward this time of the year so there isn't any deliberate plot or attempt to suppress the information as was being suggested by the member . It was a matter of just getting it . . . MR. D. ORCHARD: It was, Gene. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, there's a suggestion that there was a suppre ssing of information by the Member for Pembin a. I'd like him to . . . 1512

Monday, 7 July, 1986 MR. D. ORCHARD: In the Third Quarterly Report, cer tainly . HON. E. KOSTYRA: We were dis cussing the Financial Report of 19 84-85. So, with your indu lgence or concurrence, I will provide the member with a copy even though it has not been tabled formally here and we would have to wait till the House is back in Session to do that. I would do that at the earliest opportunit y, which would be tomorro w but, with your indu lgence, we can allow the member to have a copy of it. MR. C. MANNESS: Yes, Mr .

Chairman, first of all, with respect to the annual report, you're right, I just looked at it once now and I was expecting some thing in a similar fashion. I thought there was standardization coming in. I think they're all white with green in it, so I thought I was waiting for some thing like that, but naturally the Fina nce Department annual reports are traditionally a great colour blue and I'm glad to see that. Hopefully , that will continue. Mr.

Chairman, the Minis ter and members opposite, I think, like to have fun with the Conservative Party from time to time and like to chastize and they use the slogan, "like to have it both ways." On one hand, we're calling for a better balance between reve nues and expend itures and on the other hand they claim that we're against increasing taxes and tha t on the other hand we'd like to see greater spending. Mr.

Chairman, there is an element of truth to the mem bers' charge, I sup pose, but let's face it, we're all human, we all have frailties and we're all representative of constituents who like to see certain things. I suppo se if we were all Min isters of Finan ce and we all had the decision-making power, the ultima te decision-m aking power, we probably would favour those areas that are important to us. I mean the media type made a big to-do over the fact tha t the Federal Minis ter in cha rge of Supply and Services, from Nova Scotia, happened to move a larger degree of government purchasing into that province.

So, Mr. Chairman, I don't find anything terribly wrong with mem bers on my side giving higher priority to some areas that are im portant to them. Indeed, I can say tha t I looked at the road network that's within my constituency and I think it's in just horrible shape; and I suppo se I could accept that, Mr. Chairman, if I saw where the government as a whole was beginning to contract the globa l expenditures. I don't see that.

I see where expenditur es are constantly incr eas ing, this year up to 3.8 billion, 3.9 billion, I believe, and yet we still have some major problems with infrastructure within the province. Wel l, I'll deba te that another time. Mr. Chairman, the Minis ter and his colleagues sitting around that Cabinet table do not have the luxury of being able to say that they have to do things and yet, on the other hand, are very concerned about the deficit and the mounting debt on one hand, and yet it remains at the level it is for five years.

So when I ask the Minis ter - and I belie ve it - I believe he's as si ncere as he claims he thinks I'm sinc ere when he says he's concerned about the deficit and the debt. There's no doubt in my mind, Mr. Chairman. But the point is, what is going to happen? He says, in relative terms, com pared to other provinces, we're no better or no worse off. He didn't use those terms; I'm paraphrasing what I think he means. Mr. Chairman, is the Mi nis ter then asking me not to be concerned as a representative of the people, not to be concerned because what's happening in Manitoba is happening in other provinces?

Is he saying tha t I should alla y my concerns? Well, I don't believe he would say that. So then what's he saying I should do with my concern? Just continue to assume that the NDP Government is doing the best they can and that if we were in power that we could do no different? Well, Mr. Chairman, that's the very essence of wanting to be in power is believing, even though we might not have access to the detail on a daily basis, but believing tha t we could do a better job. That's the very essence of wanting to be in government.

So when the Mi nis ter says to me tha t other provinces are in similar situations, I quite honestly take no sol ace from that. I know that the Province of Ontario, for one reason or anot her, was able to this past year drop the deficit, inc rease expend itur es and drop taxation. So, Mr. Chairman, not all provinces are the same. Of course, I'm well aware that members in government are totally cognizant of that. So to whom does he compare us when he says other provinces? Is it the Maritime Provinces who are in great degrees of difficu lty? Because it certainly isn't Ontario.

I look at what Quebec is doing in many respects, Mr. Chairman, and the members opposite would be terribly critical of British Columbia and yet in spite of their tremendous problems within the resource sector, I see where there are some encouraging signs within tha t province. I want to believe tha t there are encouraging signs here too so that they'll be manif ested in a burgeoning econo my, one that will produce a large num ber of tax reven ues; but I can tell the Minis ter I take no consolation - or no consoling, I should say - from the fact that other provinces find themselves in the same position.

The Minis ter made one comment. He said that within mi d-term tha t they were going to do some thin g significant, and I gather - I don't want to put words in his mouth - but I gather what he said was that there might be a deli berate strategy to begin to reduce the deficit. I am wondering if the Minis ter is saying tha t in a Budget a year from now we can expect tha t there will be a major decrease in the deficit, because if there is, I would hope he would be prepared to give us greater detail. Mr.

Chairman, I just would like at this time for the Minis ter to know that even though from time-to-time we have members who may ask for things that appear to be totally at cross purposes, the claims tha t some of us are making tha t the deficit is too high, that the Minis ter realizes that he's at the seat of power and that he alone, with his colleagues, has to grapple with this very real problem. He's not afforded the luxury that some of us are in maybe wanting someth ing that's very close to us. So, Mr. Chairman, I just put that on the record. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) - the Member for St. Vital. MR. J.

WALDING: I wonder if this would be the right pla ce to ask the Min ister, sinc e his Deputy Minis ter is 1513

Monday, 7 July, 1986 sitting close to him, if he could tell me, please, what is the spending authority that the province has in this fiscal year, and at what rate we are expending it, and to what month of the year we have spending authority tor? HON. E. KOST VRA: In terms of the spending authorit y, there was a Special Warrant passed in the interim period before the Legislature resumed sitting, that provided funds until approximately the end of July .

The bill with respect to Interim Supply is presently before Ways and Means Commi ttee of this House when it next sits, and it will provide authority as contained in that bill, which is 40 percent of the overall spending, which would provide spending authority until somewher e towards the end of August, into Septem ber, at which time one would expect that the full Supply Motion will have passed this House.

The authority which is in place through the Special Warrant will be sufficient until approximately the middle of this month with respect to some ap propriations, and it would be critical in terms of general government payments, particularly salaries, by the end of this month. MR. J. WALDING: I'm a little sorry to hear that this spending only lasts until about the end of August.

Normal ly, the House sits or starts its sitting about the beginning of February or March and Interim Supply is passed to give the government enough operating authority to last until the Estima tes are passed, and the House prorogues normally at the end of June, around that time - it varies a little bit - which means that come July and August, we can enjoy the nice weather, which we hopefully get, and we can take holidays. This year, because of different circumstances, we began considerably later. I belie ve May 8 or 9 was the beginning of this Session.

So, if the Session lasts for the usual 100 days, or about four months, we can look forward to it e