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')ece:r.l:ler 5,2_980 TaEJe No. ~680 }1~'1-l. Tha 3ouse met at 10:00 a. ~ . ;'.!r. Speaker i::1 t:te Chair. MR.SP~AKER (Si~~s): Ordeor, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS 1-'!R. SPEAKER: S0~1E liON. HEtiJBERS: Y!R. }!ORGli_N: The han. ~inister of Fisheries. Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, last week in Brussels the Department of Fisheries and Oceans,along with officials =ron the provincial Department of Fisheries, the Fish Trades Association and the Fishermen's Union from this Province :net with a de leg at ion from the European Economic Community.

Over the objections of the Fishermen's Union,the f:i.shing industry from this Province, the Fish Trades Association and the objections of this Province, federal officials have now initialed a six year agree~ent with the Common Market, the Europe3.n Economic ~arket. This agreement trades cod from our Northern cod and squid stocks in return for lower tariffs on speci::ied arrounts of Canadian frozen round ccd and red fish, cod fillets and blocks and salt cod and herring.

In return for modest market access, and,I repeat, ~n re~urn for modest market access, Canada is being asked to allocate to the EEC, the EEC fishing fleet, a total of 94,500 metric tons of cod from our Northern cod stocks. SOME HON.MEMBERS: i1R. MORGAN: Shame, shame. And 42,000 metric tons of squid ever the next six year period. MR. DINN: Terrible, terrible, terrible. i1R. YIORG&"\f: The GovernmeLt of Newfoundland is f-..mdc.rnentally opposed to this kind of ar. agreement and is urging the federal government to reject it.

The allocation of Northsrn cod to foreign fishing fleets is based on the false premise that there is a surplus in that stock. There is no S'.l.q: lus tc c-ur ne-=ds in the Northerr: cod stocks. The Governr. 1ent 71 57 - 2llL

·- DeceJnber 5,1980 Tape No . 2680 ii.H- 2 ~LG. . 1·!0RGAN : o: ~e•,TfoundJ.and has together with t:te unic:1 and the Fis.i: 'D-~s in this Province insisted that t..'tere be no , r repeat, no foreign allocation from tne ~iorther:l cod stocks yet the feceral gover~ent now, cirrough the federal Depar~~ent of ~is~eries and Oceans. is prepared to allocate these ar.tounts o .f 94, 500 me1:ric tons of cod anc 4 2 , 000 metric tens of squid to the EEC at a time •. ,hen the o·ffs.hore fleet in Ne•.>~foundlanci is worried .

I think it. is obvious to all members of the ~ouse how worried t.~ey are from recent statements made to the ~edia . They are worried about a ?ending resource shor~age and they mav have to tie up their boats next October , their of:snore fishing :leet . Now ,in insisting in no a llocations ·to foreigners from stocks 111ithin a 200 mile e<::onomic zone, the Province is net alene . ~he industry in Nova Scotia is adamantly opposed, t..he Fisheries Council of Canada joined tvith Ne;.;foundland i!'l opposicion to this approach . The agreement reached la st v/eek is a resulc 7 ·t 5 H

December 5, 1980 Tape 2681 EC - 1 ~!R. ~!ORGAN: of a misguided trade policy being pursued by the federal Fisheries and Oceans. Despite this Province's long­ standing objection to this policy, officials from that federal department have persisted in trading fish for fish in buying market access for Canadian fish products by allocati~g and allowing foreigners to fish in our 200 mile economic zone.

In no other area of Canadian trade,of which we are aware,do we undercut our own industry by giving away raw materials which our competitors then use to produce their own finished product in return for market access for our finished product. International trade negotiations in which Canadians have nothing to trade but fish allocations is, in our view, a surrender of our newly acquired fisheries resources. Our government has long contended that Canada should treat fish like any other export commodity.

Canada should seek through its general trade policy to adjust tariffs on European imports into Canada in returr. for lower tariffs on our fishery products entering the Common Market. Therefore, the federal government in relegating fish export negotiations through this limited and misguided form of barter, is treating fish products as a second-class product.

Last year, the value of our fish exports from Canada was $1.3 billion, second only to t~e wheat that was exported from Canada last year, second only to the wheat commodity, and that is hardly deserving of the poor treatment that is now being used in this national trade policy. This initial agreement reached last week is particularly dangerous to Canadian and especially Newfoundland fishing interests, because it would establish for six years the rule tha~ markets for Canadian fish ~ay 7 '1 ~ ;.l -

Cec~~ber 5, 1980 Tape 2681 EC - 2 )lR . ~ORG?.)l : ce sold for alloca1:ions cf o~r Northern cod stocks . At a time whe~ Canada should be discouraging foreign efforts in our waters , this new agreeme."l t ~;ill nor...r encourage Spain , ?ortugal , Japan and other fishing r.ations which are not members of the E.E.C., which ~ave been gradually recucing tbeir fishing efforcs off our shore s, co now line up and receive ne1,; allocations within our 200 mile limi .t. It is time that Canadian t.:.sh trade policy got off this treadmill .

The so-called tariff concessions achieved last week , many of which, by the way, ap?lY to round =.ish and noc to finished product - in ether words , round fish leaving here and going over for further precessing in Europe - are not worth the pri ce . The ki~cs of concessions we got last •o~~eek are not worth the price of trading away fish resources that are not , I repeat , are not a surplus to che needs of our fishing industry . 711=: n IIIIIL ....:.· .----=-~ -=~~ ~~ ~z:: =- .. ~ .. ·~~- .... -.-= ·.--:~"·;~- .. -

December 5, 1980 Ta!Je No. 2682 SD - l ~L.~. J. MORGAN: In order to forestall the confirmation of this dangerous agreement,the han. the ?rem~er will, in his compacity as Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, recommend to the hon. 1-larl<: MacGuigan, Secretary of State for External Affairs and to the hon. ~erb Gray, the Minister of C.ndustry, Trade and Co~~erce that Canada make fundamental changes in its trade policy regarding fish products. And as :>!inister of Fisheries, I w-ill be urging my federal counterpart, Mr.

L~Blanc, to reject this agreement to to cease the practice of allocating fish stocks needed by cur fishing fleet and not to trade it off to foreigners. N::nv in closinq, Mr. SEJeaker: . lvhat I say as of this morning was confirmed the ~P.eting will take place in Montreal on Monday ~nd Tuesday. The meeting will involve all the fishing interests in the Province, the companies and the fishermen, Fish Trades and union and governments.

Although we have been, in the ?ast, relegated, I guess or EJUt back to the !?Osition of being an observer at these kind of meetings.because of the importance of this meeting in the trading off of Newfoundland cod stocks, it is my intention to be at that meeting in Montreal with the senior 0fficials from our department and put forward our case in no uncerta:i .n te=s. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SFEAKER (Simms) The hon. member for Burin - 0 lacentia \vest. MR. D. HOLLETT : Yes, Mr. Speaker, ?irst I would like to thank the minister for a copy of his 11inisterial Statement.

I think I will repeat again what a lot of my col leagues ha ve said last session and again this time, I think it is only fair that any minister who is making a statement unless it is something of a very urgent nature just as a courtesy not as a requirement, I think that thoae statements should be ~rovidc:i to the spo kesman on this side. c-!R. ? . STAGG: You only make a few remarks any•., ·ay. T~at is all that is reauired. Ic is a farce. 7 '1 r:~ -. ?EEl

·-- ·-- .. ~ecember 5, 1980 Tape No. 2682 so - 2 r.1R . D. nOLLETT : I can ap9rec:.a te the me:nber for Stephenvil le's (~1\r . Stagg) comment, Y'.r . Speaker, because he does not know enough about the fish to say anything about it but to call it a farce . S014E RON • M.El>!BERS : Oh, oh . MR . HOLLETT: Mr . Speaker, I woult:i like to congratulate the minister , to st:a:::t \vith, on t."le ~o;ay his 9ress release has been stated . It has !:>eer. very well ·,.;orded, \•Tell couched a."ld everything e:se . He speaks o:: ~1 . 3 b i llion - Canada's fish exportsi he did not say Nel·ifoundland' s .

E!e talked about the number o:' metric tons that allegedly will be traded off, somethL"lg like 13,000 ton s a yea r. I do not think , l·li thout knowing all the details in this matter, that .,.,e shoul d ':rade off th.at ;:mch :'.Lsh. HOI•tever, I ""eme!ilber the minl-ster :U.'l\self last session making quite an eloquent <:>r.>eech on the necessity for this Provi~ce and our countr y to have greater access to markets in Europe .

I think he ?ointed out at that tLme ~~e p~ices on the US market , the additional catching ca9abili~y of t:.he US fleet, the r.;r:ater i mpo rts quality - • . .;ise, price> - ·,.;ise fi:'om other countries ,and I think he said :;pecifically that in our ? r ovince •.o~e ha ve to have access to E.EC i:' 7 'I;::;~ ~~--.~-~ --··--"!..:... :'":-~---:Jo~-"":!.~·.::;:·.:.-:::::;.:~~:·---··-·-- __ .. --'.·.---·

December 5, 1980 Tape No. i!683 E:L - 1 ;}!R. HOLLETT: our industry is going to pros- per.and be profitible in this Province. MR. !-!ORGAN: Thev will have traded all our resources off soon. MR. HOLLETT: I said that just now, Mr. ~!inister. So, .t-lr. Speaker, until I get the opportunity to (

a) see the minister's statement (

b) to check it out some figures-which coincidentally I just happened to bring in the House this morning and will be going over quite closely on all those figures - I 'I'TOuld like to reserve comment until later. Thank you. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): I would like to take this opp- ortunity on behalf of hon. members to welcome to the Galleries today nine Grade seven students and their teacher, Mr. Stewart Marks, from the Seventh Day Adventist Academy in the district of St. John's West. We hope they enjoy their stay. SOME HON.MEMllERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Develop- ment. SOME HON. ~~MBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I arr, announcing today areas which have been nominated for various petroleum related activities as well as proposals I have received for specific petroleum related ~nshore development. As you will recall ,nineteen areas were designated by government on October 17th for pet- roleum .related activities. Thirteen of those were subsequently f:-ozen under the Development area (Lands) Act.

At the same time the han. the Premier invited nominations for additional sites for various categories of petroleum activities, su?ply service base, concrete platform construction, steel platform 7 1 r ~ ; ~

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2683 EL - 2 MR. WINDSOR: construction, module fabric- ation and assernbly,and pipeline landfalls. Prior to the dead:ine for closure of nomination on December ~, 1980, nine new areas have been nominated for service base operations in addition to the eleven previously des­ ignated. These are Mortier Bay, nominated by the town of Marystown; Seal Cove, nominated by a consortium cf McNarnara­ Khimpy; Hopedale, nomina ted by Labseaco Limited; St. Anthony, by A.H.

Murray Company Limited; Main Brook by Harvey Offshore Services Limited and the Town Council of Main Brook; Carrnen­ ville,by the Hewlitt group of companies; Clarenville,by the Clarenville Chamber of Commerce; Sharnblers Cove, by the Green's Pond Bonavista North Shore Development Association; Stephenville by the Department of Development, added to the list previously announced'and Goose Bay, Bonavista Bay, nom­ inated by Port Blandford-Winterbrook Development Association. Five new areas have been nom­ inated for concrete platform construction.

These are Bull Arm, nominated by Lundrigans Limited; Corner Brook,by Lund­ rigans Limited; St. Albans, by the Bay d'Espoir Development Association, the joint town councils of Day d'Espoir and the Mayor of ct. Albans; Terrenceville,by the Terrencevil~e Town Council,and a site in the Corne gy Chance area by Lund­ rigans Limited. Two additional areas for steel platform construction; St. Albans, nominated by the joint town councils of Bay d'Espoir, The Bay d'Espoir Development Association and the Mayor of St. Albans;and Sotwood,nominated by the Botwood Town Council. The Town Council of Botwood have 7 i n i·

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2684 D'Vi - 1 1-!R. N. WINDSOR: also nominated their area for module fabrication and assembly activities. In the case of a large number of the nominations, very little informationac~ed the actual nomination. A ohysical evaluation of these sites will be made against the criteria set forth in the statement Policy and ?lans for Control of Onshore P.etrcleum ~elated ~evelopments and land ~ill be frozen under the Development Area(LandslAct as dee~ed appropriate. The working qroup which has been established under the direction of Mr.

Tom Whelan will under­ take a physical assessment of all sites.both these that were identified by government as vrell as those that •..rere nominated by the public. Site profiles covering environmental, physical, social and economic data will be compiled for each site to enable an evaluation of the best sites for each category of oetroleu.m activity. Members of this group will be visiting each site and will be in contact with the various ~roponements over the next couple of months. In addition to the nomination of sites,four major proposals for specific petroleum developments have been submitted.

I will deal with each of these prooosals separately. Firstly, the DAC croup proposal for ~ortier Bay, I'he OP..C Group Limited composed of Davie Shipbuilding Limited, Aker Enqineering of Norwav and Crosbie Enter~rises Limited propose to carry out a phased development on the Spanish Room peninsula in Mortier Bay. The site is proposed to be developed initially to cater to the needs for offshore services.

Subse­ quent develoPments proposed will be in the direction of fabri­ cation activities and offshore repair and maintenance of semi- submersibles, the ultimate aim being the full fabrication of =loating production on exploration olatforms. Development of the site will be phased in accordance with the needs of the offshore industrv in its time schedule. 7 1 5 c;

December 5, 1980 Tape "--o. 2684 DW - 2 "!F. . :-1. l-viNDSOR: The DAC Group have requested exclusive utilization of a 300 acre area in Mortier Bay to carry out their development. Secondly, Atlantic Seacare proposal for Argentia. Atlantic Seacare is a con- sortium of Job Brothers Li~5t.~d, Ayre and Sons Limited, the Hewlitt Group and J.M. Chabot IncorDorat]on, a Montreal based firm. The objective of Atlantic Seacare's proposal is to provide a fully integrated service base for all offshore activities.

The proposed development is planned to be carried out in four phases over a four to five year period on the former U.S. Naval base of Argentia. 'Operation Argentia; as it is known, is very similar to the DAC Group proposal in terms of supply, service, repair, maintenance operations and module fabrication. They differ in the long-term objective for full fabrication of production platforms. Thirdly, Part Atlantis Limited pronosal for Bay Roberts. ~ort Atlantis Limited is a three f"r+- r:onsortium of Torngat Investments, Great West Life anC: Lavalin Incorporated.

The objective of the Port Atlantis proposal is to develop a 400 acre industrial park and related port facilities to service offshore petrole~~ activities. The proposed industrial park will be located on the North shore of the oeninsula between Bay Roberts and Spaniard's Bay 7 ~ith harbour facilities near the bottom of Spaniard's Bay and adjacent to the industrial park. The 7168

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2685 NM - l M..'R.. THNDSOR: project is slated to be constructed over a two to three year period. The service base is designed to offer a full range of industrial and commercial supply and service facilities. Fourthly, McNamara - l'limpey proposal for the Seal Cove area. McNamara Corporation of Newfoundland, in association with George Wimpey International of London, England, have made a proposal for the development of a supply service base operation in the Seal Cove area that will operate in conjunction with their operation at McNamara Industries at Octagon Pond.

This proposal consists of the development of a 70 acre site in the Seal Cove area for supply and ~arvice operations and the development of a 150 acre site near )c~agon Pond for storage, pipe coating and the fabrication of sub-assemblies. In addition to the above propc·sals, Lundrigan's Limited have nominated Corner Brook for a floating concrete platform, a production platform, as well as sites in the area of Come By Chance for gravity type concrete platforms. They have also nominated Bull Arm in Trinity Bay as another prospective site for gravity concrete platforms.

In making these nominations, Lundrigan's Limited have stated they prefe~ not to make a formal development proposal until such time as a contract has been finalized for a concrete structure. As well the Town Council of Botwood have put together a fairly comprehensive document in support of their nomination of their supply- service base operations, steel platform construction and module fabrication and assembly,with the intent of promoti~g their area to the various oil companies.

I would like to ooint cut that,while I have received several proposals which are both project soecific 7., , ... ...., IIJl ... 0: .. -- ·-·-:~~"!"~ - ··-· - ·-·-

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2585 NH - 2 MR. \'JINDSOR: and site specific, this does ~at in any way preclude the submission of competitive ~roposals for a~y of the sites nominated for the various categories of petroleum activity, ncr does t~e submission of proposals at this time negate the activities outlined in the ~remier's statement regarding environmental previews, socio-economic analyses and other activites slated to be carried out as part of the development approval process.

It is my understanding that none of the groups which have submitted proposals to date have either a corr~itment in principle or a contract necessary to the implementation of their proposed development. In closing,I would like to assure the House that while government is sensitive to t~e requirement for expeditious approval of certain types of development, government intends to ensure that any such devP-lopment is in the long term interest of the Province ~ Sm1E HON. MEJI!IB_E_I~S: Hear, hear! .MR. l'l'INDSOR: - socially, economically and environmentally.

And the protection and enhancement of our reneNable resources remains as our strategic objective and a review of all oil related developments, and indeed our re<.riew of all proposed industrial developments will reflect our co~~iL~ent in this regard. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. WARREN: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. WARREN: Hear, hear! The han. member for Torngat Hountains. Yes, Mr. Speaker - Hear, hear! - first I must say that ~ne Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) did show more courtesy to me by giving me a copy of the press release than the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.

Morgan) did to my hon. colleague. 7"1 6 Fl

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2685 NM - 3 MR. WARRE1l: Mr. Speaker, I could probably sum up this ~!inisterial Statement in one word, expectation. Because all it means is that again this government is arousing the people in those communities and saying, "Look, there is potential out there." But it actually is ju.st false information because,as 7 ~'"'a 1 n .

December 5,1980 Tape No. 2686 AH-1 MR. WARREN: the minister said in the last part of his statement- \·There he should have said it when he began his statement- v-1as saying that there is nothing in principle and it is only just proposals. So that is the big thing and I hope that the peoole out in those communities do not expect jobs beginning probably within the next few days because none of the proposals are - like the minister said, they are only just a matter of a piece of paper coming into him and saying we propose to start a site. So, Mr.

Speaker, again I would like to say that,going down through t~e list of those proposals,I am just wondering how many former Premiers and former cabinet ministers have already bought up acres and acres of land throughout this Province and are going to develop it so that we can see that is politically involved - ~·IR. CARTER: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): A point of order, Mr. Speaker. Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hon. ~ember for St. John's North. MR. CARTER: I am not listenina to the hon. gentleman but anyone who is would be disgusted at the veiled suggestions there.

I urge that he shoulc withdraw it right away. MR. :\7EARY: To the point of or~er, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEI-..KER: To the point of order. The hon. member- for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: I presume, Mr. Speaker, truth is the best defence and what my hon. friend stated there is a fact, it is true that a fermer Premier of this Province is in the process , Torngat Investments, of buying all the land in Bay Roberts and the Premier of this Province announces a freeze after the purchases are made. That is the point my hon. friend is making. He is completely in order.It is just a difference of opinion between two hon. members, ~1r.

Speaker. 7 ~ 7 n

December 5,1980 Tape No. 2686 AH-2 HR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! The hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has taken the words right out of my mouth. It is not a point of order,it is a difference of opinion between two hon. members. The hon. member for Tornga t 1-1oetntains. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear,hear! HR. ivARREN: Furthermore, ttr. Speaker, I do not want for anybody to connect me with ~orngat Invesb~ents. I represent the Torngat district,and not the Torngat Investments, and I w~ not a former cabinet minister who probably does have some investments in it. Mr.Speaker, I thank the Minister of Development (Mr.

Windsor) for this statement but,again, he is onlv just rising up expectations into the minds of the people of ~ewfoundland. Let us not take it for granted because we have first to get our act together and make sure thatif the development is going to be offshore that we are prepared. SOME HON. ME!:1BERS MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Hear, hear! ORAL QUESTIONS The hon. the Leader of the Thank you, Mr.Speaker. I have a question of the Premier. Last night we witnessed a debate between the Newfoundland energy minister and the Quebec energy minister a~d in that debate , Mr.

Speaker, there was an indication from the Quebec energy minister that in 1974 Quebec and Newfoundland were very close to an agreement on the Upper Churchill. The question I have for the Premier,who I believe was involved it in at the time as minister, is it true that they were close to an agreement? What was the agre~~ent and will the government table a copy of that agreement? 7 1 7 •i

December 5, 1980 Tape 2687 EC - 1 :.1R. SPEAKER (Sil!U.itS): The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I think I would be remiss in my duty - and I am sure most of the members would agree with me - if we did not congratulate the Minister of Energy (Mr. Barry) for destroying and demolishing - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I am amazed that 1'Ir. Barube even agreed, because I know he is afraid of our Minist~r of Energy, he has admitted that on a number of occasions across Canada, and I was really amazed that Mr.

Barube would even attempt to take on our Hinister of Energy. And now that he did, of course, he showed that he is much the inferior. MR. NEARY: He made our (inaudib~

e) PR~MIER PECKFORD: Now, Mr. Speaker, the MinisteL of Energy can speak for himself on what he said on the debate last night as it relates to any pending agreements during that time or any verbal discussions that were held between ministers of the Government of Newfoundland. I do not know how well the Leader of the Opposition does his research but I do not believe I was Minister of Energy in 1974 and I would ask him to keep that in mind. If the Minister of Energy has more to add to the answer than I have just indicated,then, of course, the Minister of Energy can answer for himself. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.

STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: I take it that the Premier is either not aware that there was an agreement or has refused to ans•.•!er that they were close to an agreement. 71 7?

December 5, 1980 Tape 2687 EC - 2 MR. STIRLING: The ques~ion I asked was would the government table a copy of that agreement, Something then, that the minister did get into in specifics that I believe deals with the present Premier, in which he said. they have written a number of letters to the present Premier which he has not answered. Would the Premier indicate whether or not he has received any letters from Mr. Levesque, has he answered then, and will he table copies of all these exchanges? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not know what the Leader of the Opposition is getting at there this morning, Mr. Speaker. We have had communications back and forth with Mr. Levesque and Mr. Barube and Mr. Joron and all of them over the last year or so, communications on matters dealing with Labrador power development. There might be some available now that have not been tabled. I have no objections to tabling them. I do not think there is any information there which is of such import or of public interest that it should not be, and if there is, of course, we would have to refrain from doing so.

But we have communicated back and forth verbally and in writing - the Minister of Energy (Mr. Barry) has with his counterpart and I have with the Premier of Quebec - on matters dealing with the Labrador power developments. There has been no acceptance by Quebec of cur arguments and therefore, as I have said in a number of prepared state­ ments in this hon. House, we have to ask the Canadian Government, as it relates to transmission principles, that the principle of transmission of energy products, whether they be hydro power or oil and gas, be recognized. Secondly, we have for seven years tried to negotiate.

We have taken cour~ action to try to get a fair and equitable deal on the Upper Churchill and that has failed us; hence we have taken an additional 7 1 7 ';

December 5, 1980 Tape 2687 EC - 3 P~EMIER PECKFORD: initiative just recently as it relates to new legislation,which hopefully will be coming before this House ~ext week. 7 1 7 /4

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2688 EL - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: But if there is any corres- pondence which is relevant that the Leader of the Opposition would like to have,then I have no arguments or no objections in giving it, Ylith the one prm;iso that by making this correspondence public there is nothing there which would impinge upon further negotiations that the govern- ment might be having on this important topic. MR . STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. 11R.. SPEAKER ( Simms): A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I gather that that is a firm commitment to table that corresponcence including the so-called unanswered letters. A final supp- lementary, Mr. Speaker: Last night the Quebec energy minister also said that they do not have a concrete propcsal from this government on the Upper Churchill. Is that true and will the Premier table a copy of any concrete proposal that we have made to Quebec on the Upper Churchill? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, we have, for the last seven years, as I have indicated to the Leader of the Opposition, put forward the position to the Province of Q~e- bee that we want to sit down and t~lk about the whole question of the problem with the Upper Churchill, as we see it. They have refused to seven sit down on that matter. They refused to discuss that whole matter. The continue to reiterate their position that this is signed, sealed and delivered for sixty- five years as it relates to the power contract,and all the rest of it. .'\nd they do not even want to entertain any kind of suggestions for changes to it.

That is why we have had to take various initiatives that we have taken and 1;re have over and over 7 1 ..., c. ; I

December 5, 1980 Tape No '. 2688 :Si - 2 PRE11IER PECKFORD: again reiterated our desire to sit down and to begin to talk about the Upper Churchill but 'they have refused to do so. Those are the full facts of the matter, Mr. Speaker. As it relates to unanswered letters, I mean, the Leader of the Opposition, if he is going to preface his questions, he had better get his facts straight. I mean, he can allege that letters were not answered but i= he is then, the Leader of the Opposition is then told by members of the - :-1R. HODDER: PREMIER PECKFORD: We did not make that allegation.

Well, the Leader of the Opposition at least mentioned unanswered letters and by mentioning it he attaches his name to it, I >vould think, and therefore all I am saying to the Leader of the Opposition - I am sorry if it touches the nerves of the Oppos i ':ion !f,err.bers, Mr. Speaker. If they want answers I would like to be able to give them in silence and for them to be listening to ~e. I do not like to get up and try to respond anc ~ear four or five members opposite trying to respond tc me or asking questions while I am trying to make an ans>ver to an ori.ginal question. MR.

HODDER: You should tell the truth \vhen you talk. PRE~-HER PECKFORD: Now, if the members of the Opposition want answers, then I would like to be able to get up and answer them \vithout being interrupted four or five times in a very snort answer. There are no unanswered letters. All le .tte.rs have been answered by us. 11R. STIRLING: Has there been a concrete proposal? PREMIER PECKFORD: There are r.o ~nanswered letters and we have bee:t unsuccessful in getting the Quebec go•,•ernrnent to agree. to negotiate at all any change whatsoever to the present situation as it relates to the Upper Churchi:l. MR. NEARY: 11r.

Speaker. YIR. SPEAKER (_S I~_"'S ') The hon. member for LaPoi:e. 7 1 7 f

December 5, 1980 Tape No 2688 EL - 3 HR.~EAP.Y: Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Premier seems to be rather testy today. Well,~et us see if \le can find out '.-Jhat ~e is testy about. Y.lould t~e hen. gentle- man tell us what happened yesterday between him and the off- icia~s ~f Mobil Oil that started off such a flurry of activity in the New York stock market yesterday ,' ; 1 7 7

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2689 SD - l ~R. SPEAXER (Sirrms) The hon. the Premier . PRE~IER PECK?ORD: l•lell, Mr. Speaker, it is nice to see that suddenly Newfoundland has become of age and '"e can have an effect upon one of the great stock markets of the world - SOr-!E HON. 'MEMBERS: Hear, hear. PRE~·~IER PECKFORD: - number one. Number t'''o is, I de not know what happened yesterday between myself and ~1obil. SOME HON. MEr-!BERS: MR. S • NE.l\.RY : MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile. MR . NEI>.RY : Oh, oh! Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member for Mr.

Speaker, in recent discussions with Mobil Oil 1 did the hon. gentleman sulk like he did with ERCO and wal~ out of the meetings and threaten to cancel thE permits of Mobil Oil if ~hey did not knuckle under for the hon. gentleman? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premie~. PREMI~R PECKFORD: M::::. Speaker, I ;,-ill stand proud in this House until the day I die or as long as I o.m here never walked out of any meetings dealing with ERCO and I am as proud as punch as one Newfoundlanoer that we are able to save the Newfoundland taxpayers $150 million. Sm1E HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

PERMIER PECKFORD: If the hon. member for La?oile (Mr. Neary) and some of his colleagues in the Liberal Party of Newfoundland were too scared to try to renegotiate for the benefit of the consumers of the Province of Newfoundland , that is their fault and they can stay forever in the mire of that kind of an approach to trying to get a fair deal for Newfoundlanders, and let us not ever forget that And we will never ever say that we could not sit down with any corporate citizen in this Province and try to renegotiate a better deal both for the member for LaPoile and for all Newfo:.mdlanders.

Secondl~,. .. as far as ~!obil goes, we have 7 1 7 p

Deceraber 5, 1980 Tape No. 2689 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: been talking to Mobil for - I have since 1975 - and we will continue to talk with them and discuss vi'ith them rr.atters of importance to this Province and the future that Mobil has in this Province, the future that we think that oil and gas has in this Province; That is an ongoing discussion that >Ye have with Mobil, that '.-re have with Chevron, that we have with ColQ~bia Oil and Gas, that we have we Gulf, that we have with BP a:1d all the other companies that ·wish to do business in tnis Province and v1ish to extract some of our resources.

So, discussions are ongoing with Mobil as they are with all oil and gas companies who wish to do business in this Province, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: :'1R. NEARY: ~-!R. SPEAKER: merr~er for LaPoile. ~!R. NEARY: Hear, hear. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon . Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman should be a\-rare that this House and the people of this Province are entitled to know about these discussion and 1vhat happens behind closed doors. The people have a right to know that whe:1 you are talking about a very substantial matter in this Province.

What about the threat by Mobil Oil that they were going to take the Newfoundland Government to court? Is there any foundation to that? And what is the han. gentleman's response to that particular item? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, as I said \ve are discussing matters with Mobil Oil,as we are with Chevron, as we are with Gulf, and in due course and when it is appropr~ate this House and the Newfoundland people 'J.iilJ. knm; about all the discussions that we have will all oil companies and other companies who w·ant to do business in this Pro\Tince. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

MR. NEARY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . 7170

December 5, 198{) ~ffi. SPSAKER (Si~~s) : SONE EON . HEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: l'L'<. 5l£ARY: Tape No . 2689 nn o~hPY ~om~ors yi~a ? 'les , ye s . so - 3 The han . m~~er for LaPoile . ~r. Speaker, it may be too late \•lhen the hon . ge.ntle:nan tells the Souse abo::~t it and the people of t:,is ?=ov ince, he may have wrecked t:te Province, it is teo late then . But ~ Nould like to ask the hon . gentleman another question .

We '"ere led t o believe L'1 t:,i s House a:1d the ;::eople o f Ne\.,rfocndland ·,;ere led t.o believe tr.at the oil re=inery was being passed over to Petrocan,that one of the main reasons it was being ?assed over ·.-;as because it could use Hibe rnia oil. NO\'' Mobil says, ' No, that: is not true ' . Now ho;.,r does the hon . gentleman a;:s\ver t!lat little piece o f deceit? ~1R . SPEAKER : ~he hon . the Premie£. 71 kn

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2690 !)W - l PREPIER 'PECKFORD : 'C'.wo points, Mr. Speaker, on that. Number one is, we do not negotiate ovec One.n Lines and we c.o not negotiate in public. SOl'E PO~l. "F~'13ERS: ?REMTER PECKFORD: SOME HON. l-ffiVI.BERS: PRDUER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): PREMIER PECKFORD: Hear, hear! And when we announce changes­ Oh, oh! Mr. Soeaker.. can I answer the question? Order, please! lvhen we announce changes we have already signed on the dotted line. And when the E.RCO deal was completed it was not done over Open Line or announced a week or two weeks before it was actually negotiated.

The new deal was signed and then we announced it. liie will do that for all other develooments in this Province. Secondly, I am absolutely astounded that the member for LaPoile (~r. Neary) has not checked out, once again the Opposition have not done their research be- cause if they had done their research they would have found out that this headline in the Dailv News this morning is absolutely and totally false. ~1R. S. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD: ~ .. .L<.. is net. That is not true. lve have checked it out Wlth techni- cians and all the rest.

And we have a sneaky suspicion - and if the members of the Opposition and the member for LaPoile is going to fall into a little trap that perhaps is beinq estab- lished here,then he can fall by himself, I will not. SOME HON . ~1EMBERS : Hear, hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member for IVindsor - 31lchans. 7 ! P, ·1

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2690 ow - 2 MR. G. FLIGHT: Hr. Speaker, fny question is for the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) or for the Premier,whoever ~refers to answer the question 1 but I will direct it to the Minister of Mines and Energy. Before the Upper Churchill legislation was introduced or tabled in this House,was there any discussions held with Ottawa regarding the ramifications of that :<:Jarticu2.ar legislat.ion? Did the Province consult OttaN'a with regard to these ramifica­ tions? M~. SPEAKER (Simms): and Energy. MR. L. BAR.RY: The hon . .Minister of Mines Mr.

S~eaker, within Canada there is a federal government and there are provincial governments. Ir this Province we act as a provincial government,not just as a ward of Ottawa who does not do anything without the permission of D.addy Ottawa. We are a provincial government! SOME HON. ~EMBERS: ~R.. L. 3AP.RY: Hear, hear! And, Mr. Speaker, Ottawa was informea,as were other interested parties,at the apnropriate time when, Mr.

S't)eaker, the decision was made as to what ;-;as in the best interest of this Province, a decision made by this government elected by the people of this Province to do just that.Then we informed Ottawa what it \Vas we planned to do. HR. G. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: A supplementary, ~1r. Speaker . A supplementary, the hon. member r.rr. Speaker, just a very short

preamble, ~ha~ since this Province is depending on Otta~ra totally and completely for funding of the Lower Churchill, it would seem to me that they would consult on a piece of leqislation that would affect_ the development of power in Labrador. And from LCDC's report t~e indications are that 71fj?

December 5, 1980 Tape ~o. 2690 D"J - 3 MR. G. FLIGHT: this p~oject, the Lowe:::: Churchill, can only be finan~ially p0ssible with t.he credit >UJ?port of Ottawa. To me that is ge~. And the Premier says, 'Go back to school,' but that is a fact of life and he knows it is ~ fact of life. Now, !vir. Speaker, did the tabling of the leaislation,of the Upper Churchill legislation have any effect with any ongoing discussions that this Province or the minister or the Premier were having with Ottawa re: the develop­ ment of the Lower Churchill ?OWer :ites? Mrt. L. BARRY: Could you repeat the last J?art of the question? HR.

G. FLIGHT : The minister was busy writing dow~ his ?reamble, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. ~EMBERS: Hear, hear . M.R. G. FLIGHT: Did the tabling of the legisla- tion, the Upper Churchill legislation, the proclaiming of that legislation, the tabling in this House,have any effect on the ongoing negotiations between the minister and Ottawa with regard to the whole oicture, with regard to the federal involvement in the development of the Lower Churchill ?OWer sites? M.R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, as far as I know it did not.

I have not received any indication from the federal government that it did.And why should it? Is the hen. member saying that we should not do anything that Ottawa might dis­ agree with? ~IR. HODDER: He asked L~e question. 7 ., R 1

December S, 1980 Tape No . 2690 DN - 4 :.1R . L . SAR...'U' : Anc t:!:lere, ~·= · Soeaker, li.es t:!1e diffcre~ce in attitudes ~etween this side o: the House and t:~at side of the House . .50:·tE ~ON . ~.U:~tB.ERS : Oh , oh ! 'lR . L. 3ARRY : Ron . membe rs opposite as indi - cated by the :nembe r £or !-1lnd so~ - Bucha ns C·lr. night I i:­ ~~aven :or~1c! - ~Y ev~ had a shot: at being in aovernne ~t: an..i tve k::1cw that ''7ill ::e•;er happen, tneir approach :.;oulc ~e ;:hat t~ey l·:ou ld not: do anyth ing t!:la t would dis cu::-b Otta1o~a .

M.d if , fer e:,arnp le: , they ·...:ere plann ing a hydro ?reject: and che" :.:ere looking fo::- :uncing :o::- a hydro "Oroject: ;:~at: :.s gcin<;r to ::teet the energy need s of .Eastern Czmaca , chat is in the nacional i~terest , i: they were getcing money : ro~ Ot :.a1-1 a :cr that , :-t!: . Speaker , che:: would not: do anything to dis turb Ottawa oecause they l"'llre get:.ing something that: would be in the national interest . SO:<~E !-!0':\ . :•:E..-..BERS : ~1R . G . ?LIGHT : Speaker . ~x . Speaker , ! rest :ny casa . Eear, hear ! :1. :inal supple.'ltentary , )!r . 7 1 q

;)ecemb sr 5 , 19 80 r'.R. SPEAKER (Si;;uns) : Buc?:tans . '~? . FLIGHT : Tape ~o . 2691 )ll'l - 1 Tt:e hon . member for l'iindsor - ':'h e fact is , l'!r. Speaker, ttat Ot. t:awa did not kn01v , •~~as not a ... ra,re of t.l-tis legislation , unti~ after Nev· York bad been notified the legislation \·la s being brought il'! and this legis!.ation •~ould be tabled i.n the F.o~.Jse. Ot!:a~·:a fou:~d out about this legislation a=ter :-<e•.-1 Yo rk kne•.-1 . They '"ere not a1.;are of it, Mr . Speaker , until t:.be le<!islation \o~a s tabled in this House . So, my final SU;Jplementary . Hr .

S"9eaker , to t~e wini~ter is , is t:tere no"· presently onqoing 1 rig!'lt not.,. , with Otta•:~a, with Mines an d .Energy 1 discu ssions that ;.;auld hopefully lead to a quick resolution of the Lo1 ·1er Churchill project , a quick start on the ~evelopments of the Lm.;er C?:tu rchill 90•.-1er si te s, right no~o; with Ottawa any meaningful discussions o:oinq on between this ?rovince and Otta..,•a? :\t R . S?EAKER: <::nergy . ~ - BARRY: The han . ~tinister of :-!i:1es and Mr. Spea.ke:::- 1 first of all I have tc sa y that t..'le state!!\ent \vhich the hen . manber opposite ccmmenczd his question 1o~i th - :!R .

FLIGET : M.R . BARRY : MR. FLIGHT: MR . B.a.RRY : as a matter of courtesy - .)offi . FLIG<I-r : MR . BARRY : •.vas made - ~!R . FLIGHT : .:.<ew York ~1R. BARRY : :1R . !O!.. IGHT : And I can bacl : it up . - is incorrect . I can back it up . Is incc rrect,because ourely It is not. A short 1-1hile before the announcement Briefi:tgs wer;; being held L~ - in t~e House of Assembly - at ~,e same t~me . 71Pt.:;

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2691 NM - 2 MR. BARRY: of courtesy - in New York,purely as a matter I gave a wink to my colleague, the Federal Energy Minister, and they were aware .of what was proposed, ~lr. Speaker, just a very short time before. So just on a factual basis the ~ember opposite has made an incorrect statement. Mr.

Speaker, because the federal government realizes that this government is acting responsibily, is acting in the best interest of the Provnce, is taking action to clean up a mess that I believe every Cabinet Minister in the federal government recognizes is a mess right now, the fact that Quebec has gotten $2 billion out of the Upper Churchill since it started and this Province has gotten less than $100 million. People realize, you know, even in Ottawa that that is unfair. And, Mr. Speaker, we are not puppets of the federal government.

The federal government recognizes that and because they realize we are not puppets they treat us as reasonable, responsible, people and,yes, Mr. Speaker, they do have discussions with us about the Lower Churchill. These discussions will continue, Mr. Speaker, and all I can say is that any action, responsible, reasonable action to get a fair deal on the Upper Churchill has absnJutely nothing to do - SOHE HON. ~1E11BEF.S: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: - absolutely nothing to do with decisions which might be made on the Lower Churchill. MR. SPEAKER: Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: The hon. member for Trinity- Mr.

Speaker, I would like to address a questinn to the Minister of Education. Y!R. THOHS: Ah! The first one. MR. F. RO'I'JE: Mr. Speaker, in view of the present inequities and inequalities of educational opportunity existing in the Province now with just Grade XI, will the minister indicate 7 1 p. h

December 5, 1980 Tape No . 2691 NM - 3 1-ffi • ? . ROI'ffi : whether with the introduction of Grade XII the .se inequities will be increaseq or decreased or no change will take place whatsoever with respect to the existing disparities with the introduction of Grade XII? A..~ HON. MEMBER: It would be better. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MS . VERG E: The han. Minister of Education. Mr.

Speaker, the introduction of Grade XII, which is part of a complete reorga!U.zation and revision of senior high school starting with Grade X, will result in a significant improvement in the overall quality o£ the senior high school programme throughout the Province, That improvement will have spin-off benefits for the lower grades and we have already seen a great deal of progress towards uplifting the quality of schooling in every ,part of our Province and recent measures by this administration have been directed at giving extra help towards operating in areas of the Province where unusual heat and light and school transportation costs are experienced.

MR. F. ROWE: ~!R . SPEAKER: for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: A supplementary. A supplementary, the han. member I take it the minister is indicating that there will be a decrease in existing disparities with the introduction of Grade XII therefore. My supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the minister is, will Grade XII then be introduced to all high school systems throughout the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador simultaneously? 71 fl7

December 5,1980 Tape ~1o. 2692 AH-l MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Education. MS VERGE: Mr. Sneaker, yes, the reorganized high school programme which spans Grade X to Grade Xll will begin at the Grade X level next September for high school systems throughout the Province. It must be pointed out that Grade Xl is not now taught in every school in the Province.

There are some very small schools where it is not feasible to teach Grade Xl and it ,,muld follow that it would not be feasible to offer the total senior high school programme that is planned but the reorganized improved senior high school progra'lli!le is designed for students in every part of the Province. ~1R. THm1S: Even where there are only three ·--- or four students? I:-1R. SPEAKER (Simms) : A final supplementary. The hon. illember for Trinity-Bay De Verde. MR. F.ROWE: Is that a final? Oh. Mr. Speaker, another supplementary.

Will the institution of Grade Xll, into now I understand every high school systa~ in the Province, necessitate an expansion in school facilities such as library facilities, science facilities- ·vell,most facilities. even classroom facilities,Nith the addition of Grade Xll- ·rill this require an expansion to eyisting schools physically­ curriculum, obviousl y expansion- ~nd staff expansion? And could the minister indicate to the House, Mr. Speaker, an estimate of the extra capital and current expenditure for this expansion that will be required with the institution of Grade Xll?

MR.SPEARER: MS VERGE: The han. the Minister of Education. Mr. Speaker, the reorganized senior high school programme has as its chief feature an enrichment of the courses and programmes given to students at that level. To achieve this it has been projected from the start of planning, which has been ongoing now for over two years, extra buiidings 7 1 r1 h

Dece.'nber 5,1980 Tape No. 2692 AH-2 MS VERGE: that would include both classroom facilities for the extra students who will be in the system when Grade Xll is taught for the first time in the school year 1983-84 and also extra support facilities for the additional programmes which will be 0ffered. These '\•muld include library facilities,laboratory facilities, gymnasiums, lunch rooms, etc. There will also be a need for extra teaching personnel,both because of the additional students with Grade Xll three years from now,and also because the additional programmes which will be offered.

As to cost,it would be premature for me to anticipate the budget. l'i'e are just in the process of preparing estimates. MR.F.ROWE: ~IR.SPEAKER (Simms}: . Trinity - Bay De Verde. MR.F.ROWE: f·1r. Sneaker. A new question. The hon. member for The minister knows full well that the~e are a number of schools in the Province at the pres2nt time that .ire sadly lacking in facilities-and in some cases teachers- ~eating facilities, lab facilities, library facilities .

Well ,I do not have to give examples, I do not want to point out examples,but there are schools very close to this town -in fact in town-that are not fit for cattle let alone children.

Now does th~ minister not feel that if she has any priorities for the improvement of education in this Provin~e.that theyshould start with improving the situation in these existing schools that only go to Grade Xl now, improvE these facilities first~ I cannot see how the minister can come up with money for an extended high school progr&~me into Grade Xll >qhen we have such sadly lacking facilities in some of the schools that no·.., only go to Grade Xl and I cannot therefore .understand where the money is coming from for the extended programmes. Can the minister answer that question? 718°

Decauber 5,1980 Tape No. 2692 AE -3 MR.SPEAKER (Simms): The han. the Minister of Education. MS VERGE: Mr. Speaker, in the past ten years since the PC party has been in of~ice in this Province approximately $200 million has been spent to build new schools in every part of our Province. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MS.VERGE: And nobody can deLy that this has had a tremendous benefit for the quality of education in Newfoundland and Labrador. Just in the past year,government has made possible the construction of $24 million worth of new schools. The construction which is anticipated 71qn

December:;, 1980. Tape 2693 EC - 1 MS VERGE : for the enriched high school programme - and I have to stress that that will span Grades ~ through XII - will provide for support facilities, labs, l.ibraries, which >vill benefit the present students of our population, which will benefit the present grades as well as the new grades. I am confident that this whole exercise will have a tremendous uplifting effect for education throughout our Province. SOME HON. HEMBERS: Hear, hear! !•lR. HISCOCK : Mr. Speaker. t•lR • SPEAKER ( S imrns ) : The hon. the member for Eagle River. 1-lR.

HISCOCK: A supplementary question to the Minister of Ed~cation. l\'i th regard to rural areas in t..'ris Province that have students in Grade XI of maybe ten, five twelve, fourteen students, and they do not have 50/50 shared evaluation, they only have the full 100 per cent written e~, can the Minis~er of Education tell us what the department has planned for these schools and these communities? Will they have to go to larger urban areas to take their Grade XI and Grade XII ? They have Grade XI now, but will they have to go to larger urban areas to take Grade XII? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MS 'llERGE: Mr. Speaker, these decisions rest with the local school boards who are most in touch with the situations in i~dividual schools. Ther; are situations now in very small schools in rural areas where the full high school programme is not offered, where nunbers do not justify a scund high school programme and where students must go to other communities with the assistance of bursaries made available by the Department of Education. This will be the case in the future as well. 7 1 q ~

December 5, 1980 Tape 2693 EC - 2 MS VERGE: As to whether schools which now offer Grade XI will be able to offer the complete revised high school programme including Grade XII, that is a decision for local school boards who are in the best position to make these decisions. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): We have time for one final question. The hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Last year in the House, I asked the minister and she promised to give me the facts on the report of the Property Committee on Grade XII Now, I do not know - I was away from the Province for a couple of weeks this Summer-but I have not heard any firm figures that the Property Committee turned in. This was the committee that was supposed to come up with some figures on the cost of Grade XII.

I would also like to ask the minister, since this is the last supplementary, will this money being spent for Grade XII be extra over and above the cost of the high school system~ Because the primary, elementary and high school is already hard pressed as we saw last year when she took federal government money for French and put it into general revenue. So, you know, will this be extra money or will be be squeezing the other parts of the school system in order to institute Grade XII? MR. SPEAKER: MS VERGE: The hon. the Minister of Education. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to assure the hon. member for Port au Port,as I have assured parents, students and teachers throughout the Province 1 that government efforts to improve the level and standard of education from kindergarten on up will be ongoing. The effort to make improvements in senior high schools ~rill be done simultaneously with improvements in the primary, elementary and junior high school grades. As to his pot-shot about spendinq on French programmes, i would like to remind the han. memter 71~?.

December 5, 1980 '!'ape 2693 EC - 3 ~!S VERGE : that every ci.oliar give n to this Pro vince by th e Secretary of State of the fede ral governm ent \-Jas used :or the e:~tra special progral!IP" ...S and chat. ·.vas on top of major improva~ents in regular core rrench courses which we no w offe r from the Grace IV level up . As to the report of the Property Co~~itteecfthe Grade XII steering commi t:tee , that report was just !'i nalized 1o~ith refi nemem : ve ry recently , ar.d th at \o~ill be made avai lable to members of thi s House in due course . !1R . SPEAKER (Sil!l!ll s): Order , please !

The ti~e fo r Oral Questions has expired . NOTICES OF MOT ION MR . SPEAKER : The hen . the Minister c: ~1unid.pal Affairs . MRS • NEI~OOK : Mr . Speaker, I give :10tice t:hat I will on tomor row ask leave to L~t rodu ce a bill ent:itled "An Act Respecting "I'he Assessment Of Real Property And The Imposition .lnd Collecdon Of Certain Taxes In The Cit:y Of st . John 's. ' MR. SPEAKER : Furthe r no ti ces? 71 cp

December 5, 1980 ~IR. SPEAKER ( S inuns) S0!1E HON. ME1'1BERS: :.iR. E. HISCOCK: Tape No. 2694 SD - 1 "RESENTING PETITIOl'/S The hon. membe~ for Eagle Rive~. Hear, hear . Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition that arrivP.~ on my desk only a few d~ys ago. !t :·Jas mailec ~rovember 1st :rom Paradise River. And ! would like to inform this House that I did have a meeting with postal nf'"'icials yesterday concerning this and other matters, but this is concerning the $2.50 administratio~ fee for dispensing of drugs imposed by the new policy of drug prescriptions for senior citizens.

I would like to say to this House that ;-re have over thirty names on this ?eti tion and the pre.yer of the petition is, "lvhere there is no drugstore here and we have no qualified pharmacist , and 1ve ~;ere not informed beforehand as to f:l-,o added expenses, we requec:t the hon. House to do all that is in their power to reverse this policy that has caused added expense to the people who least can afford it and added administration work to the nurse and visiting medical staff in the nursing station.'' I would like to ask the Minister of Health (Mr.

House) when he is giving his reply to this petition for Paradise River,and all nursing stations in Labrador as well as here in the orovince,that the $2.50 fee itsel~ the administration fee has been reduced as far as I know by correspondence and by an infl~x of mail and petitions and letters from development associations, from councils, from the IGA itself. Can the Minister of Health inform us that not only is this $2.50 administration fee done away with but is there any form of administration fee to senior citizens?

I realize that in the dispensing of dr~gs by the nurses ~hat the profit margin is of t~e mark-up of maybe lC per cent, 15 per cent, it is only ~orMal. But can 71CJL

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2694 so - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: the minister inform us that not 0~ly is this ~2.50 done aNay with but is there any othercosts of a dollar added on for any other administration purpose whatsoever? Mr. Speaker, I present this petition on behalf of the residents of Paradise River who are isolated up in a very small community of only 90 people and basically only have one telephone, no wharves and other school facilities there.

And I take pride in presenting this petiti0" that aaain at least they may be isolated in one of the Nort~est areas of our Province but that they do become involved in our political system by presenting petitions like this. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : ~-1R. W. HOUSE: The hon. Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I want to speak to the petition and the petition is supported because of the fact that the problem has been resolved. I want to point out, Mr.

Speaker, that the policy with regard to disupn~;n~ drugs where there is no regular drugstore - it is not as such a drugstore - was that we would dispense drugs on a non-profit, non-loss basis. And, of course, the Pharmaceutical Association in Canada deemed that it costs ~3.23 to dispense a drug and that deals with keeping records and the vial and the typing and the necessary work that is involved. Where we have people in hospitals or in stations that are there pn~~osely to dispense, where there is no regular drugstore ~ve decided that we would charge $2.50 and they have to do the same thing.

We think that is no profit, no loss. In the case of stations particularly in the Labrador area, the associated costs are not there~ the nurse dispenses and there is no other cost. So all we are charging there and th~r. i_~ ~11 it was ~e~n~ originally ··as to charge for basically the cost and there is a mark up I do not knmv what the mark up is, it rnay be 10 or 20 percent, I do not know. Where the senior citizens are getting free drugs there is just an associated one dollar 7 ·1 ~~ =;

December S, 1980 ~ape ~o . 2694 so - 3 t-1R . W . HOUSE : prescriptivn fee . 1\."ld, ~!r . Speaker, that has been in effect - as a matter of fact, we ir.itially had planned that te at \~Oulcl be the way . vlell, I have not got to say I a~ supporting the petition because the prayer of the petitio~ has been answered by a compassionate government, 1'1r . Sp eaker . ~-IR . SPEA.~ER (Simms) : rl!\y further petitions . The hon . member ::or LaPoile . MR. s. NEARY : ~lr . Speaker , I rise to support the petition presente~ by my cclleague,the member ::or Eagle River (Mr . aiscock), on behalf of his constituents in Paradise River . ~his matter of the drug policy o= the Depart~en~ of Health . 71 9F

December 5, 1980 Ta.pe No. 2695 EL - l MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is becoming a Qatter of qrave concern for no~ only the people in ParaC.ise River but people throughou~ the whole Province. The min­ ister, Mr. Speaker, is following a very dangerous policy indeed in the amount of drugs that doctors and nurses are allowed to prescribe and the length of time involved in these drugs.

The ministers knows what I am talking about, that he has his officials very subtly, they will not say you can get six months drug supply but what they do say is that we will pay - the department will pay-for a drug supply up to a hundred days ann this is creating a lot of concern, Mr. Speaker, especially with the poison ccntrol people who are very concerned about this, having a hundred days supply of drugs on hand and this applies to senior citizens, people on social assistance and,I presurne,the same thing applies to the residents of Southern Labrador. For instance,Mr.

Speaker, where you have people who have suicidal tendancies, here you are giving them a supply of drugs where they could take an over­ dose. You are giving a hundred days supply of drugs to pecple '"'ho may be senile. You are providing a hundred days supply of drugs that could be accessible to children. It is a very very dangerous policy indeed, Mr. Speaker, and I ask the hon. gentleman that the next opportunity he gets in this House ,to address :-tiQself to that problem. That is a very - and the hon . gentleman is agreeing and saying ,yes, it is - MR. HOUSE: Ask the question. MR.

NEARY: Well, I am raising it now and I am giving the minister an opportunity to answer it because there is no answer, it is indefensible and I am glad to have the opportunity druing the presentation of this petition, 7 1 q 7

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2695 EL - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to raise this matter. I whole-heartedly support the prayers of the pet- ition although I realize also that the $2.50 has been with- drawn but my hon. friend raised some other very interesting questi .ons - ~!R. HISCOCK: It took almost thirty days for it to get here. MR.

NEARY: Thirty days, the hon. gentleman says But he raised some very interesting questions in conn- ection with the government's drug policy and I support the petition and I hope that the minister will take into consid- eration so~e of the points that I raised and give us the ans- wers at an early date as possible. ORDERS OF THE DAY Ot:. motion, second reading of a bill, entitled - "An Act To Authorize The Lieutena:1t- Governor In Council To Enter Into An Agreement With ERCO Industries Limited.' (Bil:. 33). Debate was adjourned by the 3on. the President of the Council. The hon.the President of the Council. !-1R.

MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, my few remarks yes- terday in the five minutes I had, Mr. Soeaker, I went into certain a=pects of the historyof the ERCO plant in Long Harbour in its establishment that I do not propose to go into in any cepth on this morning because I do not wish to embarrass the Opposition any further than they N"ere already embarrassed. But I think it is suffice to say, Mr.

Speaker, in sum:nary that t-.rhen this :iORCO plant >vas estab- lished at Long Harbour it was established at that tine,incredibly, without there being known at the ti~e the actual cost of Bay d 'Espoir power whi-.::h 1vas to be used at that p<>.rtj ct:lar tirre 7 1 ~ 8

December 5, 1980 Tapa No . 2695 EL-3 e.tR . MARSHALL : for the ERCO Plant and ~1ithout any due regard for the enviro~ment. It is rather amusing to note that after the mistake was found, whlch ,.,.as soon after ­ t.,.a=ds, the government of the day turned around and said that they were going to subsidize it by the ~onies ~hey were ~oing to get from Churchill Falls . As t-Ie all kno• . .;, they could not co that because they gave that away as we ll . Sut be that as it may, I think it is just sL~ple enough to say at this stage, Mr .

Speaker, that the present situation which is being rect ­ ified at the present time arose because ~he election of the members of 1966, of the government of the cay in 1966, was purchased really by this particular development, no tho•Jght was pu~ into it, and the price, Mr . Speaker, was exacted and is still being exacted from the hides of the people of ~~is Province, because this Province is in<.leed too poor a Province to afford the unequal and the inequi tab le and the unfair amount of the sub sidy to '.4hich this greH .

No•,.,. , •.v-e all know t-~hat the history wa s then . tve know what the history of ERCC was, t-Ie know t."lat the agreement turned out t:o be oppressive . It had a detriment al ef fect, ~~. Speaker, on the economy of this Province . It had a detrimental effect on ERCO Induscries itself and indeed it had even a detrimental effect on the employees down there at Long Rarbour and 71 qq

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2696 ~M - 1 !1R.

MARSHALL: to illustrate this I could quote from Professor Hattenhauer's report on the safety conditions and labour management relations at the Electric Reduction Com~any of Canada Limited, Long Harbour, on July 4th., 1972, when :1e said, "The agreement for the sale of electrical power to ERCO continued to enter the discussions throughout the enquiry and seems to have influenced some of the employees' thinkings and attitudes towards the company." He found that some interviewees had suggested that some employees' behaviour in the plant is guided by the motto, "It is our money anyway so we might as well take it." So this was the effect, Mr.

Speaker, it had a real oppressive - MR. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPSAKER (Simms) : A point of order has been raised by the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: I understand under the rules of the House that if the minister quotes from a report, and he obviously quoted from that paper,that he would table it. MR. SPEAKZR: To the point of order, the hon. President of the Council. MR. MA.'ZSHALL: If the hon. member wishes to be so silly and puerile with these points of order 1 I do not worry, Mr. Speaker, I can table it.

As a matter of fact, the hon. member should have known about this report himself because it has been tabled in this House before, and it is before the House. But if he has not seen it I will table it again in the vane hope that he will be somehow or other edified by it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. S?EAKER: With respect to the point of order, those are the rules and obviously the President of the Council will adhere to the rules. MR. MARSf:ALL: Mr. Speaker, as I say this particular arrangement had a detrimental and oppressive effect upon the industry dmvn there. It needed to be rectified.

We had two problems 7~!1[1

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2696 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): with the environment and of course the financial provisions. The environmental really is not the main subject of this bill no'v,but I think it needs to be noted that as a result of negotiations, as the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) indicated, by the government with ERCO, that the danger has been di~inished, mitigated and lessened to a great degree. But still the large subsidies continued, they continued and as each year went by they became a complete and intolerable burden to the people of this Province.

As a result of the escalation and electrical costs,last year we hac a $14 mill~0n or $16 million subsidy for one industry. The year after that lt was to rise and it would have continued on. So we could not accept this, Mr. Speaker. We just could not accept it. Other people had taken the same attitude, the previous administration of this party. I think the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) when he was Opposition Leader, in one of his rare mea culpas in the House, when he indica ted that it •.v-as a mistake. He saw it was a mistake. But nobody could succeed in doing anything about it.

They could not bring ERCO to the table as much as all Newfoundlanders wished to do. It just could not be done. So I think the question has to arise. The hon. members opposite in their debate have tried to paint the fact that Albright, Wilson, which are the owners of ERCO, carne in voluntarily and made this agreement and that this government had nothing to do with it.

Now I pay great attention, I give great credit to Albright, Wilson for their actions - I will get to that later on- but that is completely false to indicate that this government had nothing to de with bringing Albright, lvilson to the bargaining table. Mr. Speaker, what happened was - the han. members opposite would like to paint it that way, but as I indicated yesterday all the hon. members' speeches yes~€rday, all they are trying to do is just diminish what this is a monumental 7 ?. 0 1

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2696 NM - 3 1-IR . MP .RSF..ALL : achi evem ent fo r the peo ple of th is Pro vince . A...'I EON . !•JE!>mER : Right. Right. MR . MARS S.:n..L L : But I must say not only the hon. me.'Ilbers; I was a little bit surprised when this House reconvened when we knew that the ERCO contract was to come, that is the government, before the House, and the statement was going to be made, that it even seemed to be missed by the press, the action that had been taken by this government which resulted in this contract being negotiated.

And it is right here, crystal clear for anyone to see on the Order Paper itself, Mr. Speaker, it is Order 28, Bill No. 62, which will now not have to be enacted, but it is "An Act Respecting The Supply Of Electrical Power To Industrial users Of Electricity And ~nabling The Board Of Commissioners Of Public Utilities To Set Rates That Industrial Users May Pay For Electrical Power." In this same session of the House, M:r;.

Speaker, the government moved to bring in a bill , ;:o which it gave first reading ,indicating that users of industrial power would have to pay a commercial rate, the commercial industrial rate, it would be 72 0?

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2697 DW - 1 MR. W. MARSHALL: referred to the Public Utilities Board and this, of course, \170uld mean ERCO. Now we did this, Mr. Speaker, after a great deal of consideration. We had to do it be­ cause Albright, Wilson had a contract and obviously as business people they were sitting on their rights. They had a contract, there was no way that this company could be persuaded to come to the table in a realistic way before despite many sincere attempts that had been made to do it.

This government, the Premier gave a commitment during the election that the ERCO con­ tract would be re-negotiated and he and this government and the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) and the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson), in whose district this plant was, were absolutely determined 1 not, ~lr. apeaker, entirely for the puroose of getting a fair rate of return as we should have gotten,but also for the sake of the industry itself, for the sake of the employees down there, for the sake of the viability of the industrv in r.he futu~e.

So we considered this bi.ll and we consider< that you knew this is where the act of responsibility comes in in govern­ ment. We considered bringing in a bill like this and it obviously has certain affects. The Premier initiated it, the Minister of Mines and Energy helped initiate it, the government considered it, the front benches, that row and this row and the people back here the government members in caucus we debated it and we considered it and we consid­ ered that this is what would be done. And let there be no mistake, Mr.

Speaker, that that is the reason why Albright, Wilson came to the table to re-negotiate and they came to the table as a result of the instigation of this government, 7201

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2697 DW - 2 MR. W. .MARSHALL: the government in conformity with its commitment made to the people of this Province to obtain fairness and equity 1r1i th respect to their na<::ural resources. SOME HON. ME.MBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. MARSHALL: And it carne to the table, Mr. S~eaker, and the hon. members there opposite can slough it over all they want to; the fact of the matter is that this bill and this saving to the people of this Province would not have occurred but for the actions of this government because Albright, Wilson needed a nudge.

As I say I find it rather difficult - I can understand the hon. gentlemen there opposite because they do not want to give anybody any credit. ~hey want to speak with forked tongues; they are for the bill,they say, they are going to vote for the bill but they want to s~eak against it - but, Mr. S9eaker, I find it difficult in a way to understand how this really escaped the press of this Province.

Because it has got to be written - really it should be written on the walls down there at the 9lant in Long Harbour and the Confederation Building,as I know it is in the minds of the people of this Province,that this new arrangement has been brought about directly as result of the instigation of this government and its determination to get fairness and equity to the people of this Province in their natural resources. Now what did we do when Albright, Wilson came to the table, Mr. Speaker? The great reve::Cation from the prophet in flight from Nindsor­ Buchans (!-'..r. Flight) yesterday - SOJ.IlE HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 7 ~ t"! 1:

December 5, 1980 Tape No . 269 Dt-< - 3 M..l'{ . \IJ . I'!A...l'{ SHALL: Mr . S9eaker, the great relevat~on was trying to diminish it - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! MR. w. MARSHALL: - trying to diminish, Mr. Speaker, there was still a subsidy being paid. MR. FLIGHT: So there is. MR. W. MARSHALL: Well, Mr. Speaker, there is still a subsi~y being paid,certair.lv . This is not an agree~ent that 1ve I.JOUld have negoti.ated first off. ':'he industry •,.rould not be set up on this basis, as the Minister of ~tines and Enerqy (Mr .

Barry) indicated, becau~t:! cne people of ~e'.·lfOU:ldland - there 1~ill sti ll be exacted from the hides of the peo ple of Ne wfoundland a price for the se2.fisbness of the hon . gentle­ men o;>pcsite in thei..r: 1966 election to government loJ;,ich is the reasor. why this particular agreement ,.,as there. So 1-1ha t did we do , ~1r . Speak~r? I could not tell the hon . membe!:." how much , ~.r . Speaker, because yesterday t.l-te bon. member did not see any cif:'erence bet<...,een 2. 5 mil s and 8 mils , or for that matter bebJeen 30 rails and 2.5 mils . But, ~1r . Speaker, 1.;hat did we do?

I suppose we could have proceeded, if we ~1ished to 1and sai d that this is it , 1-1e '"ill cancel the •.•hole thing , :;\u.t • . .;e had to :::emember certain :actors ~ that .1\.lbright , Wilson :.s a responsible corapany . It '"as not responsible :or t..~e irrespon ­ sibi li ty of the hon . gentlemen opposite when they neg otiated the co~tract . It had a cont~act , it ~ad established a ~lant . There are Newfour.C.landers, ~o\r . Speaker, we have to bear in mind 1 \olho are do1·m t..l-tere \omrking so we had a survey done , :.tr .

Speaker, we made an inquiry . .~nd the qu est ion He asked <,.ras, 'At what point will t~e Electric Reduction Company o: Ca~ada come to the ?Oint of being a net contribut~r to t~e economy of the Provin ce of ~ewfoundland in its arrang~~e~ts \•:ith res pect to pmver~ 1 7 ~nc;

December 5,1980 Tape No. 2698 AH-1 MR. MARSHALL: And it 'llas looked into ,and the factors were the usual ones as were mentioned here in the House yesterday; the fact that we have several hundred employees down there, they are paying taxes, there is retail sales tax, there is income t~~, there are the ~sual spinoffs and what have you, and you take all those together and the answer we got was - PREMIER PECKFORD: Even with all those in. MR. MARSHALL : - even vrith all those in that at the pric~ of 8 mils in 1981, ERCO would be a net contributor to the economy of this Province. And that is what we negotiated.

And the hon. gentleman there opposite, you know, the hon. gentleman cannot understand, he showed that so pointedly in his speech yesterday so I have no intention of trying to make him understand. The fact of the matter is , Mr. Speaker, as a result of this negotiation by the government , as a result of this bill that is now before this ~ouse, this agreement, that the Electric Reduction Company of Canada, contrary to what it was before as being a drain on this economy,is now for the first t~me and will be in 1981 a net contributor to the economy of this Province. SOME HON.MEMBERS: t-1R. MARSHALL: Hear, hear!

Now as a result of that, Mr.Speaker, as I say they were brought to the table,and that is the reason •;lhy it is 8 mils. Now it aces not stay at 8 mils. It goes up year after year after year until at the end of the term it accelerates to 30 mils,which is twelve times - SOME HON. MEMBERS .=. Oh , Oh! MR. S?EAKER (BAIRD): Order, please! MR.AARSHALL: There will be,as I indicated, there will be a certain cost. The people of Newfoundland will continue to sweat to a certain degree, there will still be exacted from their hides a certain price for the 1966 election 1 but we do not take :t;"esponsii:Jili ty for that, Hr.

Speaker. ~1/e 7208

DecernQer 5,1980 Tape No. 2698 AH-2 MR.MARSHALL: are proud of the fact that ERCO for the first time is a net contributor to the economy. It is a good corporate citizen. The people down in Placentia, the people down in Long Harbour now ~o to work with a much more positive outlook, they now feel that they are not a net drain upon the economy, as the member for Placentia (~r. Patterson) has indicated,and we stand ten feettall as far as we are concerned because we have done this. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.MARSHALL: So do not get on with that kind of negative outlook.

We have negotiated an agreement with honour, Mr.Speaker. And I pay tribute here to Albright. Wilson as well. Obviously they were going to rely on that contract, they had a benefit, they were not responsible to the people of Newfoundland,and we had to move, the Premier and the Minister of Mines and Energy nrr.Barry), and the government moved and moved quite strongly and quite dramatically with them and as a net result of this,this agreement was renegotiated. But I still pay tribute to them for sitting down in a rational way ; I pay tribute to them also, Mr. Speaker, for grap:ol.ing with problems of environment.

We are not ah1ays completely and absolutely satis~ied with the environmental effect of any industry 1 but they have made an honest attempt and they have shown both fiscally and socially that they are a good corporate citizen and we look forward to the positive contribution that they will make in the future to the economy. So , Mr. Speaker, the hon.gentlemen there opposite shoula not try to diminish this monunmental achievment.

Instead of speaking with forked tongues and saying that they are going to vote for it - they say they are going to vote for it because they know that the people of this Provincewould probably petition or chase them out of office if 7?.07

December 5 , 1980 Tape No . 2698 AH- 3 MR • M.li.RSHALL : ~~ey did not . But at the sa~e tim e, Mr . Speaker, l<~hat they do is they talk against it, they want to talk against it but they ar~ going to vote for it . But, of .course, we are used to that with the hon . gentlemen there opposite . They say they 1vant us to have the offshore but at the sa~e time chey ap9laud the federal government >·lhen they say , " Take Newfoundland to court". They want us to have the offshore 1 they say,but they are supporting people who want to take us to court . SOME HON . MEi'!BERS: near, hea r!

M.~ . i'1ARSili\.LL : They say they want the right to trans:nit poHer,yet they support a party :.nOttawa t-~hich to date has denied us our basic rights . So there is nothing , Mr: . ::-::eaJcer, surprising lvith their attitude . The net resul~ is a gain of some 7? [} R

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2699 SD - 1 MR. W. :.iARSHALL: $140 million to the gov.ernment. I am not surprised that the hon. gentleman there opposite does not think $140 million is significant because they gave many millions of dollars away so I would not expect him to see the significance of $140 million. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! MR. MF>.RSHALL: The industry now is a net benefit to this Province rather than a drain.

And as I say, certainly there is a subsidy,but the 1966 election will continue to exact its price from the hides of Newfoundlanders but do not undermine this bill, rtr. Speaker. The hon. gentleman there opposite should not undermine this bill and how it came about or try to derogate it - SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. MARSHALL: - they should realize that it has been renegotiated as a result of actions that were taken by this government,that an agreement was renegotiated ~rith honour to the net benefit of the economy and of the people of this Provi~sq. SOME HON. ~EMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. MARSHALL: So, Mr.

Speaker, they can go ahead, they can continue to speak against the bill and to vote for it; you know, they say they are going to vote for it but every speech we havP. '1~ard to date is indicative,Mr.Speaker, and they can give their guffaws from the other side, this is their only what-is-its-name, but this is an indication, Mr.

Speaker, that they were small men in government, very small men and minds in government that would enter into this agreement in the first place ancl they are indicating by their atti-t:c;de a;1d their inability to constructively handle the of:ice of Opposition that there are still very small men in the Liberal ?arty across the way. S0t1E HON. ~~Ef1BERS: Hear, hear! 7~nq

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2699 SD - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Baird} : The hon. member for Grand Bank. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a few words in connection with the bill that has been so ably presented by the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry} . I would like to set the record straight on one thing that the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall) has said.

I believe that I ~tood in this House only a couple of days ago and '! said at that time that I really, in a sense, do not care who owns, who has the legal claim to the offshore oil and gas. ~~R. WINDSOR: '!:ou do not care. MR. ~ROMS: I did not say I did not care. I said in a sense - MR. WINDSOR: In a sense. I see. MR. TH'JMS: - I do not care who owns the offshore oil and gas, that I believe that Newfoundland deserves the benefits from the offshore oil and qas and - ~1R. WINDSOR: By right! MR.

"''~0MS : - what ~ am saying is it is irrevelant, okay? that we deserve the benefits from the offshore oil and gas and that the federal government, bv ••1hatever means are necessary, whether it is by a act ofthe legislature, whether it is a memorandum from the Prime Mi~ister of this country to the Premier of this Province and the government of this Province,or whether it is by constitutional change, no matter how that right is to come about, Newfoundland should have the maximum benefits from the offshore oil and gas.

Whatever is necessary to give us the maximum benefits from offshore oil and gas,and the principle control over offshoce oil and gas, that is what the national government of this ~ation should do. Now, the member for St. John's East, the President of the Council, stands up and he says, 'This 7 2 1 n

December 5,1980 Tape No . 2699 SD - 3 MR. L. THOMS: is not what the Opposition wants'. I believe we have a legal claim to it, I believe we have a moral claim to it, we have a right to the maximum benefits from offshore oil and gas. Whatever is necessary to enshrine that right, to give us that right, should be done by the Liberal government of this nation. And I will do, I will use whatever little influence that I have on the minister for Newfoundland, who I do not think deserves all the criticism that the Opposition gives him, to 7 ?. 1 1

Decembe= 5, 1980 ape No . 270 0 NN - 1 MR. L. THOMS: see that Newfoundland gets that right. Now what more of an undertaking do you want from the member for Grand Bank from the Opposition? What more of an undertaking do you want? But still time after time after time after time - HR. STAGG: MR . L. THOMS : side of the House - AN HON. MEMBER: let1:er. How many more times? - narrow-minded people on the other Write him a letter. Write him a !d.R . L. TiiDMS: - like the President of the Council, the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall),who shows his breeding in this House - AN HON.

MEMBER: We do not want just the royalties from them, we want to see the oil come ashore here. MR. THOMS: - will stand up and say that we are against Newfoundland's ownership and control of o:f ·fshore oil and gas. That is simply not true. MR. WHITE: MR. THOMS: to paint us. 1-i.R . NE.l;.RY : them - MR. THOl1S: MR. SPEAKER (Baird): .IL"" HON . MEMBER : issue now. We will write him a letter, 'Les'. But this is the way you keep trying We want more than royalties from The way you keep trying to paint us. Order, please! You lost one leader over that MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, the member for St. John's East (Mr.

Marshall) talks about the ERCO contract being entered into as far as the 1966 election is concerned. I ta.l<e absolutely no responsibility for what the government of that day did, whether it is good, whether it was bad, anymore as 7 < •j 2

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2700 NH - 2 HR. THOMS: my friends here say, anymore than the present administration, and the present Premier (Premier Peckford) takes responsibility for the actions, good or bad, of the administration prior to St. Patrick's Day of March 17th., 1979. MR. LUSH: He was a minister. MR. FLIGHT: he was a minister in it . MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : He was part of it, by the 'tray, Order, please! ~~. ~HOMS: He may want to deny that he was even a part of that previous administration. But I take no responsibility.

As a matter of fact in the election of 1966 I think I was an articled clerk in the law offices of the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), at that time. ·.'lith him. I was working MR. STAGG: Big deal. MR. LUSH: If you have not a better comment than that say nothing . MR. HANCOCK: Why do you not go home for the weekend,boy,and forget to come back, for God's sake. Give the House some dignity. MR. THOMS: AN HON. ~..EMBER: Mr. Speaker, you know - Yes, boy. MR. THOMS: - there is nothing I would like better than the Premier of this Province to call an election right now - AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR.

THOHS: - no matter what would happen, just as long as I would have the opportunity, und the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) would ask me to go out to Stephenville and campaign against its present member. The err~arrassment, Mr. Speaker, as you yourself know, the embarrassment that that man brought to the 7 I 1 i

December 5, 1980 MR. THOMS: people of the West Coast - MR. HISCOCK: MR. THOMS: I have ever seen - MR. SPEAKER(Baird): Tape No. 2700 NM - 3 people of Newfoundland, and the Hear, hear! - in the most ignorant display Order, please! I think we are discussing the bill on ERCO. I have not heard any words related to it yet this morning. I wo~ld suggest the me~er get on the subject. "MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, a little bit of

preamble is allowed. MR. SPEAKER: HR. THOMS: Order, please! Mr. Speaker, the ERCO bill could be one of the things that will rid this Pro,ince of the member for Stephenville \Mr. Stagg) , 'dill rid this House :Jf the member for Stephen ville. MR. LUSH: The people of Stephenville will do that, no prompting at all. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, speaking on the bill for ERCO I would like to congratulate my friend and colleague from Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Fligh ·t) . I think he put the whole thing in perspective. SOJ'A.E HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEA..T<ER: MR. THOMS : the thing in perspective. SOME HON. MEMBERS: ~1R. THOMS: Oh, oh!

Order, please! He did a fantastic job in putting Hear, hear! You could read that in the face of the han. Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) as ~e listened attenti vel y to what my friend from Windsor-Buchans said. The man shewed that he did prepare and he did know what he was 7 2 I L

December 5, 1980 "'1R . THOMS : job. ;l.N F.ON. ~tEaBER: A.'\1 EON . ~MoER : MP. . THOMS: '!'ape No. 2700 ~1M - 4 talki:lg about, and did a :a:n:astic Nobody He did not refute it . And of cour se my friend :rom LaPoile (f<l.r . :-leary) , I :.,ris h he •.11ere L"l his seat, another man who did a fantastic job in ~~e~king i~ this debate . !1y frie."1d :rom LaPoile (Hr . Neary) Hr . Speaker, remincs me of the - I bel ieve ~ t ,,..as Goldsmith who said about the village teacher . It is in the old Royal Readers . I wish the students were still in ~,e galleries sc I could refer them to t:he old ~oval !Seader.

Some real gems of r.visdom came out of ~hat:. But as I sat a:"ld listened to my_ friend :re-m !.aPoile I could not help but reme:~~.l::er t::e old phrase Al.'l HON . ME?otBER: ~!rt . THOMS : lias it Grir.un 's :airy ::ales - - ! rerne.~er t3e old sayi:"lg, my :riend from LaPoile l~ tr . Neary) is here now, and as I sat and li stened to hL'll I recalled the old saying 7 2 ·I ..,

December 5, 1980 Tape 2701 EC - 1 :01B . TH0!'1 S : 1 And still they gazed and still t::.e wonde:!:: qre1-; /T hat one small head could carry all he knew . 1 MR . i..L.:- • .a' : Thank you . SOME BON . M&~ERS : Hear , hear: NR . THOMS: Every time by far , Mr . Speaker speaking on the ERCO bill or any other bill, by far the best parliamentarian in this Province today. SO~..E HON. MEMBERS : .:lu'l nON . ~4EMBER : the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Bell Island again. MR. THOMS: Hear, hear! (Inaudible ) the han . You will find out when (iPauclible) back to Mr. Speaker, my friend from LaPoile (Mr.

Ne~ry) - and this is for your benefit - I thiPl<: was a little confused when he referred to the district of Humber West - AN HON. MEMBER: NR . TH O~!S: his eye . SOHE HON . t-lENBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Baird): 11R. THOMS : (Inaudible) . - and that Fonze Faour had Oh , oh! Order, please! - on the Humber West district. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I believe that Fonze Faour has his eye on the district of Humber East, the one presently occupied by the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) • AN HON. M&~ER: So does the P.T.A. over there too. HR . THOMS : Now, Mr.

Speaker, I would predict that she is gone in the next election . There is no question about it . Our friend, ~1 . ?aour ,will take care of the membe r for Humber East . And, Mr . Speaker , our :riend from Gander (Mr s. Ne whook) is go ne becaus.a , ltThether she knows it or not, olans are already underway - :-1H . TULl< : By ~~e ?.C. Association . 7~1R

December 5, 1980 Tape 2701 EC - 2 MR. THOMS: - by the P.C. Association to replace the member for Gander (Mrs. Newhook). So our two token women, Mr. Speaker, will be gone after the next election. MR. STAGG: ~x. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): A point of order, the hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. STAGG: The hon. the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Thorns), as usual, is using up as much time as possible in irrelevancy, nothing related to the ERCO bill. Your predecessor i·n the Chair pointed this out. He continued to abuse the Chair. I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that he eithe~ be told to sit down or make his remarks relevant. MR. HODDER: · To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, it is not a point of order, just a specious, childish, ill-informed comment meant to harass the hon. member who is speaking. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order. I believe there is a legitimate point of order and I would ask the hon. member to confine his remarks to the bill. SOME HON • MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. THOMS: Hear, hear! The hon. the member for Grand Bank. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I was simply trying to set some of the remarks made by previous speakers in their proper perspective, Mr. Speaker, for the record. Mr. Speaker, as I said before, I think my friend from Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) the Opposition spokesman on Mines and Ene=gy, put the thing in perspective. Back in 1965 or 1966, whenever the ori.ginal contract was entered into, at that time, to encourage industry into the Province, electricity was sold to ERCO for 2.5 cents per kilowatt hour. But, Mr. Speaker, what the government has failed to say, and tried to hoodwink 7 2 'I 7

December 5, 1980 Tape 2701 EC - 3 MR. THOMS: the people of Newfoundland on what they did not say was that that was the cost of the electricity at that time. It cost 2.5 mils per kilowatt hour to produce that electricity and it sold for 2.5 mils. Now, Mr. Speaker, hindsight is a great thing. I would never lose a poker hand if I had hincsight. But that was the cost at that time. MR. NEARY: That was the cost. You are right. Right on: MR. THOMS: Now, it reminds me, Mr. Speaker, something like the Churchill Falls deal that the government makes a great to-do about.

But at the time the Churchill Falls deal was entered into, oil was selling at something like $1.40 a barrel - MR. NEARY: Right on! MR. THOMS: - or $1.25 a barrel, somewhere between $1.25 and $1.40 a barrel. MR. NEARY: Right on: MR. THOMS: who, and, Mr. Speaker, there were some brilliant minds on both sides in connection with the Churchill Falls development, who could have foreseen that the world market - the price per barrel - MR. YOUNG: (Inaudible) . MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, if the undertaker could please let me complete a sentence without interrupting I would certainly appreciate it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, at that time, oil per barrel was somewhere between $1.25 and $1.40 a barrel. Now, who could have foreseen that the price today per barrel - and it is going up ar.d up and up and up, I do not know where it is going to end - would be $40 a barrel, the world price would be $40 a barrel? Hindsight, Mr. Speaker, is a great 7 2 ': R

December 5, 1980 ~!R . THO!Ii.S : if I had hindsight . ~. ~=:ARY : is leaving now . SOME HON. ME~1BERS: '!:ape 2701 EC - 4 t~ing . I wculc neve= be wrong The=e is Rostotski's bcddy, u, Oh, oh ! MR . TEOHS: 0:1e of the u."!fortunate things about this particular bill, ~1r . Speaker, is tilat I - whenever I have been told by the Tories in 1:his Province what a great job the Premier of this Province is 7! ·j Q

December 5, 1980 Tape No.2702 RA - 1 I·!R. L. THO!-!S : doing and this administration is doing, the Premier, the fighting Newfoundlander, a.s if we only had one fighting Newfoundlander 1 he has already said we have only got one honest politician and he is trying to create the impression that we only have one fightinq Newfoundlander, I have al­ ways asked him to - I have always asked that person who has told me what a great job the Premier is doing to name me one single, soli ta..::-y thing that this Premier and "this administration has done since he became Premier of this Province, just one thing. MR.

NEARY: He has attacked everybody in sight that is what he has done. MR. L. THOMS: I get a blank stare. I get a blank stare. But no longer, Mr. Speaker, will the Tories of this Province, will the Tories of this Province have a problem in answering that question. They can now say - I can tell you one thing, I can finally tell you one thing the Premier of this Province and the Minister of Mines and · Energy (r1r. Barry) have done-they negotiated a deal wit...'l ERCO.

So that instead of paying 2.5 ~ils per kilowatt hour we are now getting 8 or 10 mils per kilowatt hour for electricity that,at the present day prices 1 is costing this Province 30 mils, So are we saving $146 million ? wnen the bill was introduced Mr. Spreaker, I was delighted, delighted, the Province is going to have another $146 million that they could spend in this Province. Finally, finally after ten years, finally after ten years of committments to the people of Grand Bank they were going to be able to get their much needed bridge. Yes, and I figured now, now the Hinister of 72?.n

December 5, 1980 MR. L. THOMS: •rape No. 2702 R:; - 2 Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett) need not take the snow plow out of Lamaline, not with the $146 million there is no need of it. MR. NEARY: Cancel the coloured pictures of the Premier. MR. L. THOMS: That is the piece of road that the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) eight years ago promised would be paved from Lawn to Lourdes Cove, now it was going to be done. Now it was going to be done. I was not going to be penalized any longer, Mr. Speaker, for voting against the flag­ that my district was finally going to get a few dollars. MR. S.

NEARY: Yes. They are going to buy coloured pictures of the Premier now out of the money(inaudible). MR. L. THOMS: MR. S. NEARY: MR. THOMS: But what do I find out - Newfoundland's answer to Somoza. - what do I find? That instead of saving $146 million it is still going to cost this Province $10, $11, $12, $20 million - whatever the figure is, that all we are really doing, all we are really doing is reducing the subsidy. The President of the Council, the member for St. John's East, said it once, twice, he said it three times; he sounded like a previous politician that we all know. MR. NEARY: Charlie McCarthy. MR.

L. THOMS: He kept saying that the price being exacted is still being exacted from the hides of the peo~le of this Province, but that was not the impression that I got first when this bill was brought in. $150 million we are now going to ha ve, another $150 million a year. NR. NEARY: Buy more pictures now. MR. L. THOMS: But that is not the case at all, as my friend from Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) so ably put it. I am not saying i·t is a bad bill, !vir. Speaker, it reduces the sub­ sid y, but that is what it does. Mr. Speaker, 7 2 2 ·1

Dec ember 5 , 1980 Ta9e No . 2702 RA - 3 ME. T. THOMS: thi s b ill also sho;.;s \vhat can be done when rea sonab l e men, when rea s onable men negotiate an unfair contract . As I said before , the uppe r ehurchill contract is not just un fair ,it is gros.;ly ·mfair . lie are getting $100 million out of the O?per Churchill deal, Quebec ha s ;otten $2 bi llion according to the minister on tele ­ vision last night . That is ju st not unfair ~~t is gros3ly unfair . That com::ract should be and mus~ be re- negotiated . i'<ow, I heard f r om f r1.end f.rom LaPoile ( ~1r . Near

y) t hat the company in this c a se refused tc negotiate with the Premier of this Province and when you look at , i•lr. Speaker, the confrontation policies that the Premier of this Province in­ dulges i n 7~?1

December 5, 1980 MR. L. THOMS: cover-up since Watergate - HR. S. NEARY: MR. L. THOMS: Tape No. 2703 DW - 1 to cover-up, is the biggest Smoke screen. The sritoke screen, the cover-up, to cover-up the imcompetenc~ of the Premier and the adminis­ tration in this Province, MR. S. NEARY: the major issues. ~1R. L. THOMS: To distract from the other issues, I would like to hear the Minister cf Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) either confirm or deny when he closes the debate in this,whether or not, in fact, the com~any did refuse to negotiate with the Premier of this Province. MR. S. NEARY: They did. MR. L.

THOMS: If they did, Mr. Speaker, then maybe we can get the Premier to back off Quebec and let the Minister of Mines and Energy , who is a reasonable man - and I think the minister himself was very modest when he introduced this bill, I think most of the credit has to go him for what benefit we are going to get out of this re-neqotiated con­ tract. I saw the minister last night, Mr. Spe~ker, nn television. I think he did an absolutely fantastic job in debating the matter of the Upper Churchill with Barube. I think he did a good job. But there was one thing that carne through, Mr.

Speaker, that here was a reasonable man discussing the problems associated with the Upper Churchill. This was not any maniac, paranoid, hysterical ~rm-waving person trying to discuss the Up~er Churchill, here was a reasonable man. Not like the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter), Mr. Speaker, nobody would ever accuse him of being a reasonable man. nobody~ But the Minister of Mines and Enercrv is a reasonable man. HR. NEARY: know . Sometimes he can be rowdy too, you 722i

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2703 DW - 2 MR. L. THOMS: He has been able - I cannot say re-negotiate or negotiate because if what my friend for La­ Poile (~r. ~eary) says is correct,and I have no doubt but it is1 then this was an offer that was made by ERCO and it was accepted ~y this Province without question. MR. S. NEARY: ERCO voluntarily agreed to re-negotiate,but what they said was, 'We will not come back from England anymore to sit down with the Premier. We want somebody who has a little more common sense.' So they put Vic Young in. MR. L . THOI\1S : I can understand why Albriqht, Wilson would say that.

I can understand that. I can under- stand why they vlould want to negotiate with the President of Newfoundland Hydro and with the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry), because we see the hysteria every day of the Premier of this Province. We saw it on television there a few weeks ago when he tried to stir up the people of this Province on the qemoninational and the boundary quest~on. MR. S. NEARY: It did not work, it back- fired. MR. L. THOMS: That did not work, of course it aid not work. Mr.

Speaker, I \vould like to hear the Minister of Mines and Energy address himself to the question of whether or not the Premier of this Province was refused in this manner. I would like to hear a little more about the negotiations. I would like to know whether or not this is the best possible deal that we could have gotten out of ERCO or whether or not it was just the first offer made by ERCO which was accepted by the minister. MR. S. NEARY: It was. The only thing that changed was the escalation of the time. 7?? /,

December 5, 1980 ':'ape :)!o . 2703 !)W - 3 "'1R . L. TH0:-15: 1-ir. S~eaker, t.re heard in 19/9 the ex?ression, '?orto~ard into the eighties , Step forward into the eighties'. But the only thing in connection with this bill that we have heard is about the election in 1966 . It is a good oill inas:ar as it goes . But, ~=- . Spea~er, members en the opposite side cannot resi st t:he t:emot. ati on every titne they ge t: up to :alsely accttse members on this side of the House . As I ~aid before,! had nothing to do, absolucely nothing nor cia my ::::-iencs :or ~orngat ''ountains (l• r. Narrenl , St. "Hb e U'l.r .

Ben;,et:c l, Burin - Placentia l'iest (Mr . Hollett ), •t~e !lad no say in t!'le original contract. so \.rhy does the member fer St . John ':;; Ease ('1r . ··!ar shalll have <:o get up and true to ::or.n spi';. out his ve.~om ac innoce:1t 7~?C,

December 5, 1980 Tape No . 2704 EL - ~ MR. THOMS: people? Fortunately, of course, we are in the House and we can stand and we can repudiate what the member says. 1-fR . STAGG: l'l.R • THOMS : ( Inaudible ) . The member fc:>r LaPoil e (S . Near y)1 if you were one tenth the parliamentarian or politician that the member for LaPoile was,you would have no problems getting re-elected. MR . NEJI.RY : He does have a problem getting re -elected . !-' .. H .. SPEAKER (Butt ) : Order, i;llease! AN HOT:'J. MEMBER: (Inaudible) know when to open his mouth and when not to. MR. THOMS: And if the member - MR .

SPEAKER : Order, please! 1\Ll'l.. N'EA.qY: Six in a row, one defeat and then one again . MR . SPEAKER : Order, ?lease~ The member f o ~ Grand Bank. ~- THOMS : 1'he member· f o r Stephenvil!e (F. Stagg) can have his say when he has been as successful as the member for LaEoile . . lR. NEARY : Right on . HR . HOLLETT : He will not be saying it in here. MR. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, I think that the member for St. John's East (W. Marshall) when he said that the price is still being exacted from the people of this Prov- ince, is right. He is absolutely right. But the impression that has been given is wrong.

The impression is wrong. I think the Minister of Mines and Energy (L. Barry), as I said, is to be congratulated on this bill inasfar as it goes. It does reduce the subsidy. It does reduce the subsidy. I find 7 ~1 ~

December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2704 EL - 2 MR. THOMS: it very easy, Mr. Speaker, to congratulate the Minister of Mines and Energy (L. Barry), awfully difficult to congratulate the member for St. John's East {W. Marshall) because 1 as I said, he stands .!_n his seat and he blames me because he ecliptically says all members of the Opposition, Andthe member for St. John's East well knows that in 1966,when the contract was entered into with ERCO, that I was working at the law firm of ~he member for St. John's East for fifty dollars a rnonth- fifty dollars a month is what I was being paid, Mr.

Speaker- :md they got a lot of work out of me. They got a lot of work out of me for that fifty dollars a month. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. member knows that (in- audible) in my office he strayed politicall y . He is stray- ing all the time. MR. THOMS: Strayed for the better, Mr·. Speaker. Strayed for the better. ~1R. HANCOCK: I sa y thank God he had sense enough to get out. I1R. SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! MR. THOMS: But Mr. Speaker, we are support- ing the bill. It reduces the subsidy and it is a good bill and the ~inister of Mines and Energy and Mr. Vic Young are to be congratulated and again, Mr.

Speaker, if we can get an agree­ ment on other matters facing this Province, part~cularly the Upper Churchill 1 by having the Premier of this Province ex­ cluded from those negotiations, then if the Minister of Mines and Energy can accomplish that,then I wish him good luck. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. THOMS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear! 7 2 2 7 ':.

•• .:J;.. _ ___ _ ...,. __ December 5, 1980 ~L~ . SPEAKEa (Butt) : ville. HR . STAGG : Tape No . 2704 EL - 3 The hon . ~e~er for Stephen - 11r . Speaker, I had not intended to get involved in this debate but the abuse thac was •.vrecked upon me by the member for Grand Bank(L.

Thoms) forces me to ~y feet to defend not only mysel! but also ~o de!end this government 's economic development posi~ion and to contrast it in some respects with the develop or 9eris h policy of the Liberal s, the develop and perish policy of :he pr ov ­ incial Liberals prior to 1972 and their clones who are presently op posit e and who are at one with the develop and perish po lic y of the Federal Liberals ,So I L~ought I might develop that theme and to indicate how relevant it is, ~r .

Speaker, in case any of the hon . members , as I start to cut them to the quick ,~o~ill try to interrupt :r.e on poincs of order, this li:.tle talk of mine 1-1ill be a comparison in some res ­ pects of th e economic development policies of this govern ­ ment and the indiViduals who make up thi£ governmen~ as opposed :.o the econom~c development fiasco s o! the previous government . l?'JP. :

"J'lf ., .~. December 5,1980 Tape No. 2705 AH-1 HR. STAGC: No~,Mr. Speaker, I come from an area of the Province that has beer. the subject of some of the Liberal economic development plans for the 1960s and the 1970s. I have lived there , lived on the Port au Port Peninsula for a major portion of my life and I now live in Stephenville 1so I have been the subject of the economic development plans of Mr. Smallwood and the Liberals.

I was so struck by the fact that this government and the people \~ho are in•Jol ved in it had succeeded in turning arounc: an industry such as ERCO that I thought that I would look back and see how the previous government,and the Liberals .i~ general,how they carried on their economic policies prior to 1972 just so that we will not forget ~crever.

In 1966 , ~ot too long ago, Joey Srnalh:ood went out to Stephenville and he announced a lot cf industries and I decided in my research that I would indicate to the House 1vhat some of them were because the viability of some of those industries is similar to the \"iability of ERCO. Mr. Smallwood anr.ounced the following industries - A:'< HON .t1EJY!BER: l'ihat is the relevancy? H 'd MR. STAGG: l·1r. Speaker, I hear a warbling over tiJ.er.e tr.at may '-Tell get into a caterN'auling fairly soon.

Relevancy - the relevancy of this is I a~ going to show the economic development policies of the Liberals as opposed to the economic recovery policies of this administration. So some of the industries that were cited for Stephenville on the eve of the 1966 election were; a truck body manufacturing firm employing one dozen men and possible fifty within a year; a firm for manufacturing electronic cornponents,eighty persons at a start and maybe two hundred later on~ a manganese iron ore smelting industry employing eithty men; an electric light bulb factory employing - I think it was seventy men; 722q

r ·i# December 5,1980 Tape No. 2705 AH-2 MR. STAGG: a pulp and paper mill,of course, and a bre1very, of course. Well 1 we have the brewery; the brewery has gone through three different owners since that time. In 1974 this government rescued the brewery. I'Ve have a pulp and paper mill in Stephenville that did get there ~escued by the economic initiatives and the kind of approach that this government takes. So we do have ~~o~o t•.-~o, thanks to this government here, because tne others, were only fiascoes~ A plant for the making of silica ~~---. 6 bricks.

That was somewhat prophetic because the member for the district who was elected - and I will get to his election a little bit later- he was later known as'silica Bill; A lime plan~which will employ fifty people; a factory for making paper bags employing thirty-f~ve people; a galvanized link fencing company and two separately mvned plants for herring meal and oil employing one hundred and fifty people. Some of these industries actually started,but t~ey all failed. All of these industries that I am talking about nmv that were announced with great fanfare in 1966, some of them actually started, all of them failed.

He said f!oliday Inns 1vould move into Stephenville. IV'ell, Holiday Inns is still not there. The base hospital - here is one. - the base hospital will be converted and used as a hospital. That was done. There was very little else that could be done there although the people of Stephenville Crossing are still harbouring resentment in that regard. And there were several other industries. Well, Mr. Speaker, that is the kind of thing that the people of this Province were subjected to from 1949, I suppose, \mtil 1972. What has been the policy of this government? What is the policy of this government?

Number one, the policy of the government is to see what we can reclaim from the wasteland, the economic wasteland left by the Liberals. Now I would say 7 2 1 n

--~i:~;: December 5,1980 Tape :-:ro. 2705 AH-3 ~!R. S'l'AGG: that the Liberals of 1972 are idential to the Liberals of 1980: There is no real change in them, Hr. Speaker 1 they are all the sarr.e. I can see them over there. They have the same sel::-serving attitu.de 7 2 :i 1

:..··_ -;: ,-' .. ·.~ :-:-. ~~·::...~-~~.::..:.,;iii';"",;;.~--.:~.-.:;.~-:-.;.-.;,.::.!::'~~.:~-)~~· -· _: .• :J:.~ l: ::.::: :.~ :;, -~:·.:.-: :~...;: :·~· .. :: ... ~~-~.:.,:-.::::-:: .:.::..::·'1.::::-: -:-r-:-::,-": .'"' ·-:- ·:- -:~ ·:- .• - . .~t'- . . ···-·- December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2706 so - 1 MR. F. STAGG: I would ~e very upset, I would probably le~ve the Province if through some fluke they ever managed to get power. And what about the economic plans of the federal government, their friends in the federal government?

Well, they have an interesting concept too as far as the fishing industry is concerned, the developing of the fishing industry in Newfoundland. They have the policy of exporting coals to New Castle, that is the policy of the federal Liberals. Their policy is, in order to develop ma:r:·kets for our processed fish, what we do is we export to the people to whom we sell this processed fish the raw product. That is the economic policy of the federal government and that is the economic policy of hon. gentlemen opposite who supported the federal Liberals so vigorously in the last election. So, Hr.

Speaker, they are all the same, a Liberal is a Liberal is a Liberal. And a Liberal in 1966 is a Liberal in 1980, there is no change in them. SOHE HON. HEHBERS: Oh, oh. MR. STAGG: So let us have another look at Liberal tactics in economic development. And I will go back to the elction of 1966 again in the great and historic district of Port au Port which I represented for some four and a half years and may represent again- who knows ?

Premier Smallwood as he then was, sent a letter around to the people of Port au Port in support of his economic plans for the Stephenville area and I am going to quote from that letter - AN HON. MEMBER: Read it all out. MR. STAGG: - I should read it all out but it is fairly lengthy. It says, let ·me get an appropriate place to start here, 'I~ places in the district of Port au Port are to be prosperous and happy ,a great deal of work must still be done. Will ~ou help me to do it?' - AN HON. MEMBER: Do you have another copy? 723?

~ ..: '::.~;.?.'£;"".:.:: O...:.F~ ·l ... ~ .::~::! f=.,...-:v~ .,.-. .:.:...!·~:.;_r~· .:.:.-;;.t:t..; . ~;~ :.:::. ::-..:~ z. ,:.:~ .L'C ~::;~· .7'~ -. '2..'": .-, ·-;,~-:~.~·~:~..~A t.~ ... --r~·.--.:::~ :.: ·~~ ~.-..-::-:- #·~- Decenber 5, 1980 MR. STAGG: the table. AN HON. MEMBER : MR. STAGG: record. Tape No. 2706 SD - 2 Yes, I have another copy here for Heave it out, boy, heave it out . And that should be part of the And he said to the people of Port au Port, 'Will you help me to do it?

Do you want me to do it or do you want to send me a message saying, 'Stop.We do not want your help; go and work for Bell Island or some other part of the Ne~foundland that needs your help. We do not need your help and we do not want your help: And this is a letter to every voter in the district now and this is economic development in Port au Port in 1966. 'Is this the message you will send me on September 8th when you elect your member for your district.' SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR.

STAGG: 'That will be the answer you will give me if you elect the Tory candidate or the Independent Liberal candidat~·becausetheyparachuted the Liberal candidate in there. 'If you want to, send me a message saying' - SOME HON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh . MR. STAGG: - 'Yes, Joe , we want your help, we want you to keep on working hard for this district and the people in it . The only way you can send me that message is to elect a Liberal Party's candidate, Mr. William R. Callahan.

I can work with him in the House of Assembly and he can work with me and the two of us will work together for you and the district and we will succeed. Please do not elect anyone but Mr. Ca~lahan, please do not vote for an yone but Mr. Callahan. I thank you fro m the bottom of my heart." Now, what kind of thing is that? That is a letter that went out to eve ry voter in the district of Pert au Port prior to th e 1966 election. SOHE HON. 1-lEMBERS: Oh, oh. 7 2 3 1

... ~ December 5, 1980 Tape No . 2706 SD - 3 !·IR . STAGG : lolhen the Ameri can A.ir Force Base 'N"a s cl os ing down ar.d 11r . Smallwood had asse mbled h.is Cabinet in 5t . Stephen's gy:nmasium and bad afmounced all of ;:he se i:tdus t :::-ies, that \·;as the L1beral pol:.cy . That 1.,.as followee ·Jery shortly therea:ter by th e ERCO fiasco .

The ERCO fiasco was dealt 'N'ith i:1 conside rable detail by the Ratten..i-lauer Industrial Inq uir y Commission, the Re por t on Safet y Condit~ o ns and Labcur and ~anagement Relations at t~e Electric Reduction Compa ny of Ca:;ada Pla nt at Long Harbour , ;l_'il BON . 1·!EJ."lBER : 1·1R . STAGG : .IU"e you going to table that nc:M? ~hat has already been tabled because the ?re sident of the Council (:.tr . Ma.::-shall ) h.ad to table it becaus e the Opposi tion d:i.d not want us to refer to it. This 'N"as appointed , by the way , this !nd ·..tst::ial Inquiry 'N"as appointed on July 4th , 1972, by Mr .

Maynard, who was ~tinister o= L~~ustrial Development ~ cha~ ~ime . From 1967 until !972 Long :arbour •...as a bloc 7?3 1. M\1J? ;i;

WUif :::z~:;..:~:~.;~·-:._-~,.· .. -.. -....i"::...::::-.l~~ .. ~-:::.;;r·-:-;•7:::::-;~,::=:;::-~~~i'7:·-:::.:7-..%~r::~:·::..:..~~--;-:_..,;::-;:::;fr·.~~--:- ,,....._. ................ ~~~':-:;-:-:~:·· December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2707 NM - 1 '1R. STAGG: on the industrial activity in New- foundland. It had the red herrrings, literal red herrings, the phosphorus in Long Harbour and it was written up as the type of industrial development that is to be deplored in a Province such as Newfoundland. In

chapter two of that they deal with the power question, the power question on ERCO, and I am going to deal with it in much the same way as the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) did. But Mr. Hattenhauer was struck by the attitude of some of the people at ERCO at that time.

It said, "Some of the employees had this attitude, 'It is our money anyway so we might as well take it.' Many of the employees at ERCO are evidently not aware of the facts of the power arrangement and whenever these were discussed there was 2.n implicit suggestion that ERCO management had not been ethical and above board in its dealings with the Provinc~'and so on. And then Mr. Hattenhauer goes on to explain why the ERCO people had been open and above board and he refers to the advertisements that \-rere sent out across ·the world about the availability of cheap power in ~ewfoundland.

And here is one that deals with ·it. It is appended to it at page eighteen, the power advertisement. "Power," it says, and this is prior to the 1966 election. This is the Liberal method of developing industries in the Province. And the hon. members opposite are no different. They are no different. If there had been any appreciable difference in them,I do not think the people of the Provi~ce would need to be reminded of the past, Jut they are no different. They are slavish adherentsto the same philosopy . So here is this power advertisrnent talking about sale of the Upper 7235

i;,!'Z~]·i~~~::;;~~ .. L_ December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2707 NM - 2 MR. STAGG: Churchill power which had already been sold to Hydro Quebec. "Power from Labrador's mighty Churchill Falls, 10,000 horsepower, SO million kilowatt hours as low as 3 mils for firm power at year round ccean ports in Newfoundland." Can we blame any of these international companies for coming in here? Can we blame ERCO for corning in here and taking advantage of this sort of thing? Well, obviously not. That was the philosophy of the government of the day. It has been pointed out to us by the President of the Council (Mr.

Marshall) that these advertisements were sent out before it was known what the final cost of power would be. Can you imagine going out and making advertisements o~ that type for the purpose of enticing people into your Province? I guess it just happened because he knew he was going back to the country. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the kind of thing that happened in the Liberal days. That is the kind of thing that happened in the Liberal days. And we have to contrast that with the kind of thing that has happened since 1972 with this administration.

One of the things that I will always be indebted to this government for is the determination that they showed initially in fulfilling their promise to the Newfoundland people in the Stephenville area, to put the Linerboard mill on stream and to have it operate, which they did. But I must say that the problem that Mr.

Hattenhauer found in ERCO that the people felt that, "Well, it is our money anyway and why be loyal to the industrv." 1'hat was prevalent, that was a problem, t:hat was a psychological problem in the Stephenville area because the industry was being so heavily subsid:i_:o:f-'0 "" t"= Province and that was because of the deal that ,.,~ 0o ·t into. 7?38

. ·::~·..;:~~;:; .:;:- ... ,;:~~~~~~*'!i:"l~7..::i~ December 5, 1980 Tape No. 2707 MR. STAGG: Now this government in 1977 had the initiative, the determination and I guess the bravery to close down the Linerboard mill. At the time it was a blow to the economy but there was a certain sense of inevitability about it, and I was a resident of the area at the time. And in keeping with their philosophy, in keeping NM - 3 with the philosophy o