Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Thursday, June 22, 1972 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 38

June 22, 1972 Tape No. 922 NC - 1. The House met nt 3:.00 P.H. Mr, Speaker in the Chair. PRESENTING PETITIONS: ----·-· - MR._JYLWARD: Hr. Speaker, I bep; leave to present a petition signed by the resi.dents of Long Harbour in support of a petiti.on by the people and the residents of Mount Arlinp,ton Heights, with respect to the request of the residents of the area to have the roild paved from Long Harbour to 'fount Arlington Hei~~hts. Nr. Speaker~ I note from the list of projects tabled, indicatinp-_ the improvements and reconstruction which the '1inister of Highways tabled, that the road from the Trans ...

Canacla to Lonp: Harbour, for a distance of 7.5 miles, is being paved this year. The residents of Mount Arlinr,ton Heights and Long Harbour note the presence of this equipment and construction work in the area and are also aware that the paving is about to end at Long Harbour. Now, Nr.

Speaker, the distance o.f the road, from where the pavement apparently is to end to Mount Arlin~ton Heip,hts, is a distance of approximately one mile and a--half to two miles, This entire stretch of road passes through the commun ':.y of Mount Arlington Heights and there are dwellings situated on each side of the road and it is in .fact, Mr. Speaker, the only road through the community. This is a very, very important piece of road hecause the children, from the area of Mount Arliniiton Heights, travel to Long Harbour to school. Mr.

Speaker, for the benefit of the members and the minister of the department where this relates. the St. Jerome's Elementary School in Long Harbour as well as the pupils in St. Bartholomew's Elementary School as well as the residents have signed the peitition in support of the prayer that this road be paved. It is pointed out in the prayer, !fr. Speaker, that throughout the ye, the children from Mount Arlingron Heights are obliged to travel 2&23

June 21, 1972 Tape No. 922 NC - 2 MR. AYLWARD, over this road and it is ln a terrible condition. Anyone who is familiar with the area at all must realize that there is a very, very steep incline going down into Mount Arlington Heights and that in the winter, and I pointed this out to the House before, during the spring of t~lis year it was just j_mpossible to get a truck or car from Mount Arlington Heights to Long Harbour.

Considering the fact that the children are obliged to travel this portion of the road all year round, particularly at winter, considering the dangerous condit:l.on in winter and also the terrible :lnconven:lence and nuisance that the residents of the area are obliged to tole1·ate as a result of the dust, J. strongly support the prayer of this petition and ask that it be referred to the department to which it relates and that that matter be given prompt attention because the construction company and the equipment is presently in the area and I respectfully submit that it would cost much less to pave it now than later on.

MR, THOMS: Mr. Chainnan, on behalf of the members on this side of the House, I rise and sincerely and whole-heartedly support the prayer of th:Ls petition for the upgrading and paving of the road from Long Harbour to Mount Arlington Heights. I trust, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Highways, in consultation with the Minister of Finance, will see fit to provide the necessary funds for this worthy cause, While they are considering · ft, Mr.

Speaker, I hope they would consider also to provide money for the other districts of our province wh:f.ch I note have been deleted from the highway programme of reconstruction, new construction and bridges for the coming year. There are many areas of this prov:f.nce which need good_ MR. SPEAKER: Order please, I think the hon. member should stick to supporting the petition rather than wandering on to another. 2924

June 21, 1972 Tape No. 922 NC ·· 3 MR. THOMS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. May I close by saying that we all here support this petition and I certainly hope and trust that the prayer of this petition will be carried out in 1972. 2925

June 21, 1972 Tape no. 923 Page 1 - MRW HR, ROWE (F.B.): I would like to address a question to the hon. Minister of Education. Has he met with a Miss .Judy Norman, concerning her certification in the teach1ng profession yet? MR. CARTER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have. MR. ROWE (F .B.): Mr. Speaker, can the minister tell th1.s honourable House what is the government I s stand. or policy concerning the certification of individuals who feel their relj_gious belief is a private and personal affair? MR. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, our relations with teachers and teac.hers who are to be certified is governed by. law, The law very carefully spells out what the relationships should be. Contrary to popular opin:lon, a person may be certified as a teacher who holds nny rel:tgious views that are possible to be held. They can be christian or non-christian and they can be of any sex and any christJan or. non-christian belief. They can also be - a person can be certified who does not hold any h1lief. Now I will read the relevant passage if I may. It is

section 5 (

c) of 11An Act To Amend And Consoli.date The Law Relati.ng To The Training And Classification Of Teachers, May 23, 1968. 11 It states: 11 Every board shall be responsible for exami.ning all applications for initial teaching certificates or licences,not includ:i.ng examining into academic or professional qualifications of applicants,-from per.sons who are adherents of the recognized denorninat:i.on or of any of the group of recogn:lzed denominations it represents and from persons who are not such adherents but who wish to teach in the schools of that recognized denomination or group of recognized denominations,and recommending to the registrar for certification or licencing those persons it considers to be suitable " therefore• Now the operative words in my opinion are 1With those persons it considers to be suitable." The De.nominationaJ Educational Committee has considered the case of Miss Judy Norman and has found her not to be suitable 2&26

June 21, 1972 Mr. Carter Tape no. 923 Page 2 for licencing. I might add that this is their power1 enshrined in law. Whether or not one agrees or disagrees with it, is another matter. It is the law of the land and as elected representatives of the province, we are pledged to uphold the law. I might add for those who say that this power should not be held by committee, this power is also held (the honourable gentleman knows this very well) by school boards. The school board may or may not employ a teacher and does not necessarily have to - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CARTER: No, it has do with employment.

One has to do with certification and the other l-.as to do with employment. J:1R. ROWE (F.B.): A supplementary question: Can the minister explain why the D •. E.C found Miss Norman not to be suitable? MR. CARTER: I think the answer there. Mr. Speaker, would be that while the Der,ominational Educational Committees are not looking for hot gospelers,nevertheless they would like to have a fairly straight and non-hostile answer to a question that is on the form or on the application form. It is my understanding that the person in question was not particularly co-operative in answer that particular question.

Her answers and type of reply and her attitude generally left the clear impression that.she would not be suitable. 2lJ27

June 22. 1972 JH ·- 1 HR. ROl,E(F .B.): Mr. Spe;1ker, am T to understand then that Miss Norman's certif:f.cation has been refused because she herself refused to reveal her religious affH i.ati.on. MR. CARTER: 'f'he refusal of ccrtif:l.cation for Ni.ss Norman rests wlth the Denominational E<l11cntion Comm:1.ttee and the right to that refusal rests in the ler,:1.slat:l.on. which I have :lust read out. But it is my t.mderstanding that she has been found by that committee to be unsuitable. MR. ROBERTS: .. ··-- ··-·~---·· Mr.

Spec1ker 1 if the rn:tnistE:r would permit a further suppl.ernentnry 6 ar:i.si.nP.: out of one of the answers he has given. Jle snid and I think I am <ruot:lnp. him accm·ately but maybe not precisely word for word, that the> DEC :f.nvolvement, who hns the statutory ri.ght to recommend, that they are not look:l.ng for, I think the minister I s phrase was "hot gospelers;, but they do expect less than non··ho:::;tilc answexs. I thlnk that was the way the m:ln:l.st.er put it.

Now that leads inevitably to ask what answer M:t.ss Norman gave to the question, because the informat:lon which I have,which is only the public information 1:l.s that she g,:1ve no answer to the cruest:i.on. The minister is inferr:lng and I ask him if he could go furtht:~r, that she may have gone further than said no answer and made an answer wh:f.ch was offensive or hostile, to use h.!.s reason. Could the minister tell us then what answer Miss Norman <l:td make to the relevant quest:f.on? MR.

CARTER, As the honourable Leader of the Opposition quite well knows, I certainlv was not in on any :f.nte1:v!.ew wl.th Miss Norman and the Denominational F.d11cation Committee but it is my understandinp; tlrnt her answers were of such a nature as to led to the conclusion that she would not h0 tt suitable teacher and thi.s is all I know. MR. ROBERTS: of the D.F, .C.? ts the honourable minister's conclusion :t.n the opi.nion 2!128

June 2.2, 1972 Tape 924 -TM - 2 ~fR. CARTER: Yes. ···----·- ~---·--- N?.__~@_F._J.l?:~: Then a further question, has Miss Norman any recourse nt all now or is she condemned either to come up with answers suitable tr, the n,E.C. or to abandon her quest for a teaching certificate? ~- CARTER: -·-·-------·-·· ~fr. Speaker, I think that her logical recourse would l,e to the Denominational.

This is a personal opinion, Her recourse would be to the Denominational Education Committee to ooint out to them that while she does not belong to a recognized or <loes not feel tha.t she belongs to a recop:nized relir,:f.ous affiliation nevertheless she is not openly hostile towards religion,and the D.E.C. 1 s might be prepared to take ;mother look at it.

But unless she gives some concrete evidence of no hostility towards religi.on in general1 then T do not see how her apr,licatfon can he reconsidered by that bodv,. anc" the honourable Leader of the Opposition knows full well that that hody has the rip.:ht to certify or not to certify teachers in this provi.nce.

"M"F. _ _. __ R~0_1_3_~~?-:..~.: Mr, Speaker, I am in a broad way familiar with the lepislation and so forth, but is the minister then RBVing the real reason. as he understands it and I realize his knowledge is second hand, the real reason why Miss Norman 1 s application was not recomT'lended hv the D.P..C. concerned is that she was hostile to religion? Now that is obviously a different thinp, 1 Mr. Speaker, than having no religion. It is one thing to say s'lnmly I am an atheist. I do not know if that is having - it is havinp; a religious view hut i.t is hardly a relir.1on but it is a religious belief.

But what I am gettinp. at, Mr. Sneaker, and J aripreciftte Your Honour's - because I think thfs is of interest to all members, ft is one thing to sav L do not hold any of the recognized reJ i.!?'.ious beliefs and it is another thinr: to say that I am a deist or I am an atheist or I am a pantheist or an nr,nostic or a huddhist or what have you, all of them accepted views 2~29

June 22, 1972 towards religion, maybe not our views. but .it is another thing .But if the yonng lady w,1.c: hostile to religion or hostile towards religious views. Could the minister make it clear because 1 11stening to his answer, T am getting the :l.mpression that her 21130 .TM 1

June 22, 1972 Tape 925 (afternoon) PK - l MR. ROBERTS: problem is not that she held a view other than these recop.nized denominations or even held no v:i.ew hut apparently that she was hostile, which can only mean that in an interview, I gather it was an interview and not a written questionnaire, she ,. 11 went beyond saying, I have no religion 1 and used other words. '!R. CARTER: Tt is my understandJnr-, Mr. Speaker, that there had been many interviews and the conclusion reached by the certifying authorities are that she is not suitable to he certified as a teacher• MOre than that I really cannot say.

But it is refreshing to note and ctintrary to popular belief that there is no lep.:1.slative bar towards and a teacher may hold any vJew that he. wishes, he or she wishes,hut still also the powe:..· to certify teachers rest wi.th the denomi.national education committee. t would submit to honourable members that the power to certify a teacher has to rest with somebody whether it be the Lieutenant Governor-in-Council, hut it must ultimately rest with somebody. MR. ROWE. W,N, Mr, Cha:lrman, agaj.n I appreci.ate Your Honour's latitude on this question, hut I think it is a matter of extreme importance.

Are we in the House or Niss Norman, Mrs. or Miss Norman, I guess, Hiss Norman, or any other teacher ?Do we have to accept a statement which the minister has ohv1ously gotten from somebody or other regarding Miss Norman's suitability for certification or her unsu1tabi.'.1 i.ty for certification ?Do we have to accept that or is there some other process by which the thing can be investigated or is there some process by which it can be appealed? Because it is of utmost importonce to her> she is not permitted to practice her profession. Could the minister answer that. MR.

CARTER: I am sorry, would the honourable gentleman repeat the latter. MR. ROWE, W.N. Mr. Chairman, :f.f there is some further process available, not only to Miss Norman, I mean she is one of several 2!131

lune 22) 1077. Tape 925 (afternoon) PK - 2 NE._.ROWE~ __ W.N._ thousand teachers or several hundred personSHho may be affected hy th:Ls type of th1.ng. I am wonder:Lng H there i.s somE: further rn:ocess 01)en

U) her rn ar1ybody else ox us fox that ma.t~-er whereby we cto not h:i.ve to mE~reJ.y act:e.pt th,~ statement mad8 by the minititer.,wh:i.ch 1.s second 1:wnd to !Ltm1 do not. have to merely accept that st;1ternent a.s to her suJt..1.b-J.:Uty or unsu:1.tnli:f.l.l ty to t{>nch hut whereliy she can either: HJ.YfH~al or anybody c~1n nppeaJ. or. wh;;~r8by the rnatt0.r can he investigated to make stn:e. tbnt A1H,\ i::-; nnt htd.nr, den:i.ed eer:tif:tcat{on as o:t tt~at:her/ wh:tch ·[s her chosen prnfe~os-f.on,on sonie othe.r tmten«bJ.e or un:]t.tst gro~mds.

I menn ls the re s<w1t~ process now to look behind these stHtenients? HR, __ CAT{TFR:_ l would hov(--~ to say, Nt·. Spc:,-1ker, J lwve tremencl.ous conf:l.dence 5.n the ab1.l:tty and the quaLU':!.cation of the Denominational Educnttonal Committee, .q:c: r.egA.rdinp: the:1.r abil'i.ty tc cert-tfy or not to certify a teaclH~r or an applicant for a tE.'achers certif:l.c:ate. As for .:::isk:Lnp, for another henr:i.ng, I am sure that they would he 111ore than happy to hear it. There Js no douht J.n my m:i.nd that they are prepared to :)ustHy the:i.r action. NR, R0BER1'S: Mr..

Speaker, there ts no question about the nh:tl:!.ty that !H'. pr.ece:l.ved, hut to rephr.nse the quest.ton a~ain; Has Miss Norman, has she any other cout·ses of r-iction open to her? The mlnister ea:rllct.· s,<d.d.-, in reply to cl ~;upplementary question? that she eou1.d go hack to the DEC.s, hut at some po"I.nt he ;,,hie· std d that there had ht~en a numher of :tnt:erv:tews. 1~ut presuma}ily the DfCs have deicid~:d, they have gone as fnr as they are soing to go 'They have heard what they wish to hec\r mid they have gJ.ven 'Miss Norman an oppor.t1m:!.ty to say what she wished tn :::;ay.

Is the matter closed? f)oes the young lady now have the option of g:lv:i.ng up and go:tnr, elsE!where or taking t1p 1;0.rnnr1tress work,,myth:tng other than teaching,or has she some other course of act.ion open to her? HR, .(.~~~}1'.J~'.. The re,9.son why there were a number of "lntervJ.ews, ~1r, Speaker, w;rn that fir.st of aLt she received her or:lf.dnal teachm:s training t'.rantwhich

June 22, 1972 Tape 925 (afternoon) PK - 3 MR, CARTER: was Biven to her under the auspices of the R.C. Board. But then apparently the answer she gave to the question was that she wns not a Roman Catholic. So she applied, I think it was to the Denominational Integrated Board 1 for certification and then,of course, when she refused to answer the question as to her religion affiliation, she was then referred back to the R.C. Certification Board. So she has been doing the ro1..1nds of the var·~nus denomin~tional certification committees. In one case she would go to see Mr.

Cliff Hatcher and in another case she would r,o to see Dr. Kevin Tracey. Because first of all this is a question that must he answered or is required to be answered and no satisfactory answer was given. She was given T feel, Mr. Speaker, every possihle chance to make her views known to the certification committee. I think they had ample opportunity to examine her qualifications and I would say that she has been dealt with extremely fairly and extremely generously and I do not think there is any more she can do at the moment.

But at the same time,if she feels, if she does have some points that were not raised, that were not made known, then she could very well go back to them. But I cannot see any other recourse for it at the moment. MR, ROBERTS: In other words, Mr. Speaker, 2&33

June 22 1 1972 Tape No. 926 HR. ROBERTS: and this will be my f:f.nal, Your Honour ••• _tfB_:2PEAKER: I would ~"st like to point out to hon. member, that in Heauschne, page 11,7, sect.ion 171 ''nn, in connection NC - l with a question or order written it says: n •• ;, must not ask a solution of a legal proposition, such as

interpretation of the Statutes or a minister's own powers •• , 1 1 and I think that it might be getting involved in this. MR. ROBERTS: I thank Your Honour for the reference to the citation. It is similar to the other ones• W ·e cannot ask what legal advice has been tendered the Crol<m, but it was the minister himself who purported to interpret the Statute and we of course did not ask him for any

interpretation. Are we then to conclude that the minister feels that the matter has been dealt with satisfactor.ily? I guess that is the nub of it at this stage, Mr, Speaker. MR. CARTER: No, I am not entirely satisf:I.ed but as the law exists now, we must uphold the law that we inheritEld when we came into office and as the law exists now we must uphold it. We presume it could be changed,but I think this is beyond the scope of this particular question and I think, Mr. Speaker, I would submit that I have answered the question as fully as possible under the present c:l.rcumstances.

MR: ROBERTS: May T. then usk the Premier what action this adm:I.nistration :1.ntend to take with reference to this matter? Since obviously it is not to die here. MR. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, this whole quest:ton of what has arisen in this young lady's case is one that brings up a much broader problem than Just a specific application that she made. At the present tirne, as we have seen it, the application she has made through the avenues that she could make them,, has reached a dead end in that she has been rejected for that position by the structure,as it presently stands 2934

June 22, 1972 Tape No, 926 NG - 2 and according to the law which we as a government must uphold, as it is written. The fact that such a law is as restrictive as it is, may or may not mean that it is a good law. As a mat~er of fact, from a personal observation, 1.t may not be a good law. We are talking about human rights and all that goes with society today. There is a possibility that the law may have Uo be rewritten but it presently exists and I think, when we are talking about human rights in society, it is one that deserves the consideration of this government as quickly as we can get it. MR.

ROBERTS: Mr, Speaker, 1 thank the Premier and it may well be that Miss Norman has found a flaw in the system that has never cropped up before, Than may r. ask the f.remier if the administration are considering taking further steps in this matter? I mean, to come back again,and I appreciate the Education Minister could not go further, cbes the young lady have to let it die? Has she gone as far as she can go or are there further steps that may be taken? I-m.. MOORES: Hell as a matter of principle rather than the young lady's particular complaint in this case, I would certainly hope that she would not let it die.

I think we have an obligation as a government to make sure that it is studted and studied with all aspects of society taken into consideration as oprosed to auy one initial ~tatement. ;'fR. ROBERTS: I thank the Premier again. I agree that hard cases make bnd law. I mean,a principle can be raised by one pe!ison but it is not- We have no particular concern for Miss Norman, it is the principle in which she is involved. I can assure the Premier that we will on our side not let it die. let it die either. I believe that he will not On motion that the House go into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR.

NEARY: With regard to 1101-01, Nr.. Chairman, I hope that I can wind up my few introductory remarks, at least to the Department of 2935

.June 22, 1972 Tape No, 926 NC - 3 Social Services and Rehabilitat:l.on. I am hoping, Mr. Chairman, the l'ionourable Premier w.iJ 1 stay in his seat this afternoon, he may learn something. If the honourable Min:1.ster of Finance. wants to run out of the House 1 he :l.s quite welcome to do so. Mr. Chairman, when the committee rose yesterday at six o'clock, I was talking about unemployment in the province and I was about to deal with the statist:lcs, the unemployment figures that were released as of the end of Mayn I do not think, Mr. Cha:f.rman, that anyone in Newfound.land was surpr:tsed at the increase in the unemployment rate in our prov:lnce as of the end of May 2!J36

June 22, 1972, Tape 927. Page 1. compared to May a Yf.~ar ago, I submit, Sir, that if it had not been l'or the federal government I s local incentives pro.-lects I bet that the increase in unemployment would have been three times as great as it was at the end of May, compared to May a year ago. Ottawa's Liberal Government Sir, has bailed out our own inexperienced P.C, Government who have not,since January 18th, come up with a single new industry to provide work for our people who are on welfare or on unemployment insurance. But instead Mr.

Chairman, with their half-witted partisan approach to the linerboa1·d mill and Come By Chance projects they have done everything in their power, Sir, to discourage outside businessmen from coming into Newfoundland and Labrador. The get~tough approach of the minister of Finance, Sir, to world industrialists can only do harr,1 for Newfoundland. Sir, his policy of getting our own Newfoundland millionaires,our native milHonaires, to start up labour-intensive projects and risk their capital, I am afraid it is going to he a failure.

Un.less the m1nister has a guarantee that our own native millionaires are going to do thi.s. There i.s no sign of this so far, Mr. Chairman, not know if the minister is going to be able to con his fellow millionaires into such economic patriotism. I hope he can,Sir, I do If not I am afraid that unemployment is going to skyrocket in this province over the fall and winter months. Planning, Sir, planning, this is what they talk about,long-range planning,Mr. Chairman. Welfare recipients cannot put that in their oven for Sunday dinner.

Long-range planning, my footl Yesterday the fish were down in the back of a truck, no market 0 The minister of Fisheries said we have it included in our long-range planning. The fall of the year will roll around,Mr. Chairman, fall session of the House. A fall session of the House, let us discuss long-range 2!137

June 22, 1972. Tape 927 Page 2. planning. on welfare. Unemployment rampant i.n the province. People going What .is the answer? The minister of 1:1nance says "oh, do not worry about it long-range planninp: will take ct(re of th:i.s." What utter nonsense, Mr. Chairman. Nonsense! Hogwash! No wonder the minister of Finance is on the pill. No wonder, Sir! Now, Mr.

Chairman, when the nd.nister of Socia.1 Services stands in his place to answer some of the points that l have raised,as I am sure he will, I would like for the minister to inform the House, if he has an executive assistant, what the name of that person :i.1' and what the salary of his executive assistant is: I would like to have that little piece of ·informntion. Now, Hr:. Chairman, I think basically, aft.er listening to the honourable minister's general remarks yesterday, thinking about it last night that r.-eally there was nothing new "in

June 22. 1972~ Tape 928, Page 1 -- apb what the honourable mini.ster said 11 He is just merely followinr out nolicies that were laid down by the nrevious administration. As I indicated yesterday, Sir, as p:ood as these policies were, as ~ood as they were 1 they are now outdated. I think the welfare syste11'., Sir, as we know it today, is obsolete. It should be replaced with a more realistic system.

That is why I suggested to the minister yesterday that he proceed w:I.th the "Plans that we had,to experiment with the p.uaranteed annual income in the province and to take advantar:e of Ottawa's generosity in carrying out make-work pro:}ects in the province. I think the depllrtment has to take a comrletely new directi.on, Sir, take t.t new course, chart a new course. The honourable m:i.nister should not he scared of making mistakes. When 1. was in that departmnet, Nr. Chairman. I mnde a few mistakes, hut I think I <lid mor~ r.ood than I did. hnrm.

Sir, one thinp: I can say is thRt I had the interest of the poor people in this province at heart. I clo not think anybody on the opposite s:l.dA car, deny r11e that. The honourable member for Harbour C,race shakes hi.s head, says "No", That is right, We even increased the funeral allowance for indigent people 1 when I was minister of that department. I think the honourable wemher applauded me for that. He is a member of the Funeral M.rectors 1 Association. I do not know if I will get a cut-rate, Sir. I do not know if 1 will get a cut-rate. "t-faybe I will.

Every time the hon. gentleman looks at me 1 1 think he is takinr- my measure, Mr. Chairman. H(H·'ever, Sir, we cl.id make tremendous progress in that department,, 'But, Sir, the system is obsolete. I am afraid that I have to keep repeatinp. that_, Mr. Chairman. I think the minister would do well to try ;md build on the foundation that we left behind. Chart a new course for the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation. Chart a new course. S1.r, I think this is very necessary.

Let me glve the House a few examples of some of the i.rr.provements that were made in about the last year and a-half, Sir, that I was minister of that department. We increased social assi.stance rates for 2&39

June 22, 1972, Tape 928, Pnge 2 -- apb people on short-term assistance to parity w:lth those of the unemployed :J.nvalids. That ls those who are certified to be mecU.cally unfit for work. As I snid yesterday, Sir, we p:rnvJded as a rnat::er of c.ntitlewent instead of on the existing hit.-and-mJ.ss basis, social assistance allowances t.o single able .. bod:led m,qJ.es, We permitted the retention of earnings on a scale that I presume is being set up now by departmental rer,ulat:f.ons. The :cegulat:Lons had not gone out (or they m:1.r;ht have gone out) up to the time~ Nr. C:ha:i.rnmn, th,:1.t T 10ft t.h0 department.

We :i.nc.reasc.d the. fuel allowance, Sir. We gave grants to the spouse of old age pendoners who were not themselves of th!c! a?e to be elir,ible for old ape pensions. We p;:ov:ldec\ vi.\d.t:Lng serv:!.c.es to the elderly, who preferred to remain ln their own homes, Sir, to inst:l.tut:Lonal residences. Fo11ow:i.nr research into the. extent, need J:or establJshment of local ·residences for the ap,ed throughout t.lw prov:i.nce, Sir, we began t:h:i.s programme that I outl:i.ncd yesterday of resident:f.al type,: homes. We made commitments to 1,ewisporte 1 to St, Anthony and we were taking a look at the s.outh Coast.

While I am on that sub·Jcct, Hr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister,when he standi; to answer some o:f th0se questions, would tell us what :i.s happen:Lnp in Stephenville Crossing? I understand the committee out there has a substant:i.al amount o.f money. They have been tryinp.; to r.et a senior citizens I home started :i.n Stephenville Cross:t.n,r; for the last few years. I do not know if there are any new developments on that. I am sure that the honourable member for St. Geori?e's would be interested in findinp, out if they are going to get their home. Talk:Lng about senior citizens I homes 1 Fr.

Chairman, let me mflke it abundantly clear. I do not know what :ls causing it, but today it seems that every community in Newfoundland wants a senior d.tizens 1 home. The reason they want a senior c:f.t:lzens' home, Sir, :ts that they th:Lnk it creates employment. They think it :f.s a. big industry. ''Senior citi.zens' home"S, let us have one, put people to work. 1 • Sir, that is not 2&40

June 22~ 1972, Tape 928, Page 3 -- apb the purpose for havi.ng senior citizens I homes. They forget about the care of the people who are going to live in these homes. So, I would say, Mr. Chairman, that we had adopted the right policy. We were i;wing to strategically locate residential type homes ,1 various parts of the province, and th0n in the major centres,as I indicated yesterday, we would have nursinp:--care homes. The ?Jinister of Community and Social Development went out to Central Newfoundland over the weekcnd,rantin~ and ravinr, ·'No bedridden 2&41

June 22, 1972 Hr. Neary. Tape no, 929 patients he said in the new seniot" citizens home. in Page l •- ·-mw Gr.and Falls •11 The honourable ministe1· must have been quoted 1ncon·eetly. He must have been quoted incorrectly. The:rc is provision. I inform the minister right now that there is provision for bed-ridden patients in that home. I am quot:!.ng the honourable min:lster from the radio station in Grand Falls~ CJCN said it. If the mi);dste:r was quoted 1:nco:crec.tly, why does he not rectify it? I will give the minister an opportunity to rectify that right now. MR.

SENT.OR: I think that cau be answered very s.imply,.Mr. Clu"d.rman. X was not :in Grand Falls on the weekend, MR. NEARY: .Mr. Chairman 1 there is snch a th1.ng as a tel~!phone. It could have been a telephone interview. The honourable minister said that he was going to correct it, WtsJ.J let us hear him correct it. HR. SENXOR: I. have not had any conversations with CJCN in Grand Falls concerning - MR. NEARY: Well there was a report,Mr.

Chairman, that the honourable minister let j_t be know in the Central Newfoundland area that there would be no bed-ridden pat:i.ents 1.n that new sen:lor citizens home in Grand Falls, HR. SENIOR: Mr. Chairman, on a po-1.nt of order: I. have already said that I did not make any such .statementa, The honourable. member persists Jn saying that I made a statement. I d:ld not make a statement [ would appreciat·e it :Lf you would accept that ll.S the truth and not keep harping on something which :ts not true.

I have sat across on thiB s:.lde of the House (I am not going to make a speech now because my tu1:n is com:!.ng :i.n a day or so and I have some t:i.me at my disposal then to deal with the things which I want to deal w:tth) and I am :3ick and tired of sitting on th::1.s s1.de of the House and hear the honourable members on the other side making accusations about things which happened in the Grand Falls Distr.tct wh1.ch are just not true, MR. NEARY: Is that a point ot order" Mr, Chairman'? ~f _o_rder, Mr •. Chairman? 2~42 What is the point

June 22, 1972 MR. CHAIRMAN: Tape no. 929 l' e 2 The usage and custom which has developed state that the statement of a member of this honourable House cannot be contradicted by an individual or statements of individuals outside of this honourable House, I think that that is what the honourable minister may have been afraid of happening. However, I am sure that the hon. member for Bell Island did not intend it this way, did not intend for it to be taken this way, -<MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the statement was attributed to the honourable minister MR, _SENIOR: It was not made. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Cha:f.rman, the honourable minister has denied it and I am glad he denied it. It was attributed to the honourable minister. There was a strong rumour in ·Grand Falls last week, Sir, or within the last ten days - MR. SENIOR: MR. NEARY: You made the statement. You did not say it was a rumour. Hold on now! Hold on, Mr, Chairman! Hold it! There was a strong rumour in Grand Falls within the last ten days that the senior citizens home had been scrapped, that it was not going to go ahead, Sir. MR, SENIOR: Why are you changing the subject? MR. NEARY: Wait, I am coming to it.

The minister, the member for Grand Falls,was asked to conm1ent and during his comment one of the things that he said apparently,as it has been reported to me, attributed to the honourable rnernber.,was that there would no bed-ridden patients in the senior citizens'home, Now the honourable member denied it, MR. SENIOR: Mr, Chairman, I object, MR. NEARY: I accept that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The statement of an honourable member has to be accepted in this House. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I accept the honourable member's denial. _MR, SENIOR: I am sick and tired of accusations which are not true.and 2&43

.June 22, 1972 Tape no. 929 Page 3 Mr. Senior. being reported :ln the press by people from the outsi 'le. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I accept the honourable 1uember 1 s denial that he made such a statement. MR. SENIOR: Well shut up, :lf you Hccept :lt. MR. NEARY: Hr. Chairman, why are they getting so cranky? Why are they so jumpy. l renl:.1.zc :t t is n f:Lne day, Sir. I would like to be out myself. We have to cm:ry on the business.

Hut, S:.ll:, we have to carry on the busJ.ness of this prov:i.nce. l want. to ask the N:Ln:lster of Soc.:i.a1 Serv:i.ceG and RehabJLL<.<i::lon and I nm sure the hon. member for Grand Falls w:lll want to know th.is to: Ls that home going ahead this year'{ The honoun1b1e member SffJS that it is <lef:tn:J.tely going ahead, Well we w:Lll find out when the hon. Minister of Social Services and Rehabiliation gets to his feet. HR. CROSBIE: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Ah, there :ta the boss back again. He did not stay long. He did not take to the. open road at all. AN HON. MEMBER: They are very touchy now. MR.

NEARY: They are getting jumpy , Mr. Chairman. They are getting cranky. they are really cranky now, They cannot take it. They can dish it out by they cannot take it, Sir, I sat over there for eleven years and I saw that M:f.nister of Fimmce wear a groove in the House.He wore a groove :ln the House going back and forth, l learned a lot from him. you that the Minister of Finance - I guarantee NR. CHAIRMAN: Order! Order! I believe that the honourable member is being diverted from the discuss:Lon wh:lch is on the management of the heading Social Services and Rehab:.lliation. _kfR. NEARY: Mr..

Chairman, you are absolutely right. Sir, I do not know why I opened up the Newfoundland Liquor Conmd.snion. However, Sir, before I take my seat, I want to have a word

June 22, 1972 Mr. Neary. Tape no. 929 about housing, Sir, housing for needy people. Mr. Chairman, .l suppose one of the most time-consuming things that welfare officers have to do is finding adequate accommodations for needy families. It is virtually impossible, Sir, to find apartments or flats or houses for people in the low income bracket and in the no-income bracket, I was glad yesterday, Sir. when the Minister of Finance~in a major policy statement in this House, announced that the Minister of Social Services and Rehabiliation had been appointed to the St, John's Housing Corporation. Now, Mr.

Chairman, he has it all in his own hands, The honourable minister knows the desperate needs for housing for the low income families and for the no-income families, The honourable minister knows the need, It is desperate, Sir. It is absolutely desperate. It is desperate beyond words, Why, Sir, the officials of my department, when I was minister, became so frustrated with this problem that honourable members will remember the criticism, the controversy over the fact that recipients of welfare had to be put in luxurious, expensive homes down on Canada Drive, in expensive hotels.

Sir, it started - this is not only happening in Newfoundland, Sir, but - AN HON. MEMBER: Who started it in Newfoundland? MR. NEARY: This minister did not start it,.I can tell the honourable member that. When the honourable member was out managing a finance company in Gr.and Falls, - does the honourable member remember ,1bout finance companies, how he fleeced the welfare recipients f this province? Let us have it? We will have a debate on that. We will have it. I will guarantee the honourable member will blush, crawl out of this House on his hands and knees. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order!

The honourable member is entitled to be heard in silence and the honourable member should remain relevant to the subject matter which is heading XI, Social Services and Rehabiliation. MR. NEARY: Mr, Chairman, down in New York, down in that great metropolis 2&45

.June 22~ 1972 Tape no, 929 Mr. Nea . .ry. of New York, wt.:lfare recipients had to be put up in the Waldrof Astoria. That ia .a fact, Ni:. Chairman. 1 ct1n tell this honourable House now that since 1 left that depf.\rtrn,~nt the honourable m:l:n:tstcr who :Ls now heading , up that departrn::.mt has hll<l to put fnmtlies in hotels Jn St. John 1 s. It will not stop, Mr.. Chairman. It will not stop because the honourable mininter :i.s the:re. When the honourable minister leaves his successor will have the sarne. p:wblem. His successor w:U.1 have the same problem unless 1 Hr.

Chah·man~ th.e honourable minister~ since he has now been put on the St. John's Housing Corporation, can start to butld some houses in. this C:1.ty. You better. check that with the hon. Minister of Finance, So, S:i.i:. this is a desperate p:roblem, Mr. Chairman, the hon. H:r. Halfeur, loosened up the National Housing Act so th.at oltl hottses could be rehab:f.Llt:ated, S:!.r. MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Oh, here is the min:1.ster o.f sw:!.mming pools. He :.ts back with us again. So, Hr. Chairman, we are expecting big things from the honourable minister. He has a dual portfolio now.

He is H:1.nJster of Social Services. He knows the desperate need for hous:tng. He is also

June 22., 1972 Tape 930 a member of the St. John 1 s Housin? Author:lty, so we are hoping, Sir. for bi?- things. He are hopinf; that all the housing problems for low income and no-income families will be solved in the months ahead. Sir, I will tell you this, I will tell the House this,that if t had my way. Sir, I would have filled Elizabeth Towers up with welfare recipients instead of filling it up with politicans, C.:ir, I would fill it up with welfare recipients. Hr.

Chairman, I do not care what anybody thinks of what t am saying ,whether we are out of the House or in the House now, it does not make any rlifference to me, Sir. I am a forthri?ht fellow, frank and honest and sincere and I try to tell the truth an(l face reality, Sir, and I do not care whose corns I walk on. nut, S:f.r, here we ha<l a sittrntion in this city that T. did not agree with when we hfld no nlace to put families that were being evict eel, put out in the s trect, on thr- sidewalks, wi.th their children and their furniture and Elizabeth Towers over there, Sir, thirtv per-cent occur,ied.

I would have done what Fidel Castro did, SJr, if I hnd my way, I would fill it up with welfare recipients. Why not? The Univet'snl Declat'ation of Unman Rip;hts states that every family is entitled to a decent living, decent accommodation,decent sheltE'!t' and why not, Sir? Why should the wel.l-to-cfo politicans have the rri.viler-e of going down, living in a luxurious apartment buil<li.n,rr, El:f.znheth Towers? Why not the welfare recipietits? Whv not the peor,le of the low income group? Mr. r:hairman, while I· am on that sub,-ject,and here is a little tip for the honourable minister, why not, Mr.

Chairman, why not flick out of Churchill Park and Pleasantville all the occupants that are in these apartments earninp: over Sl.0,000 a year? Why not flick them out 1 Sir? MR. l1ICKEY: ... ·---~ -····-" Why did the honourable gentleman not <lo it? 2!14'7 JM - 1

June 2/., 1972 Tape 910 ?,'.~.: __ _1'!}'~1\_I~\~.:_ Mr. Chairman, this Js not the.-'! first time the honourable gentleman raised this quest:Lon, not the first t:!.me. I was not all powerful, Mr. Chairman. I was not all DOWf'rful b11t, Sir, you have livj_n.f! in these apartments well-to-do people, S:i.r, that can we.11 afford to own theJr own homes am1 they should not be liv:i.nf; there. The honourable 111lnister sh0ttld see to it that thev are Id.eked out and pt~ople in the nd.,ldl(' income.> and the low income bracket put in these aT)artments. N_l_l_:_}HfRP_J-_l,Y: Even nt $160.flO n month'l MR.

NgARY: Even -t f tlwv have to subsid:tze them, Sir. S.1.60. on --·- - -···- - a month at F:li.zahcth Towers? ~fR. MURPHY: T.n \.hm:chi 1 l Sqm1rc. ····-·· -·-··---·-- MR. NEARY, T.n f:hurchill Sqtwre.. Thcr.e arc people, Sir, in the $8,000 and $10,00() bn1eket that can afford to pay $150.00 to $160.00 a month rent. MR. MURPHY, MR. NF.ARY: }ffi • ?{ORPHY : . - . - --· --... That is what they are charg:lnr:. Thnt ts what they are charging. They are not subsidized. no. MR. NKI\RY: They are subsi<l.i.zed, Mr. Chairman.

When we sat on the onposite s:i.de of the llouse my honourable ·friends over on this side told ns th<'\t Eliz::ihe.th Towers w<.1s .subs1.d:b:ed ancl now it ts changed, now it is not sub.0;:i.di?.ed. Mr, Chal1~mnn, welfare recir,ients do not want: l.11xury. Al] they want -.i.s n modc~:t little home to .1.:tve :.i.n. They do not want white wall to wall broadloom, Sir. They want a modest -little home and I th:1.nk they are enti.tled to it. Sir, I tell you I would mBke no apologizes to anybody in this House for putt:1.ng: welfare red.p-tents or people in low :lncome hl'ac.ket in luxurious houses.

If JM - 2 I hnd my way, S:Lr, they would be down :.i.n EJ.5.zahcth Towers, neighbours for the honourable minister, the honoura}il.c Premier and the honourable Minister of Highways. They would be next door neiphbours, S:J.r 9 the 2948

.June 22, 1972 Tape 930 people who put them in power, that elected them. Why not, Mr. Chairman? Why not? They are entitled to it and they should have it. tt is scandalous,Sir, the housin? conditions in this province, .scandalous. I could not begin to describe them and yet the honourable minister is going to reduce the cost of building material for repairinr houses. ~R._ HICKEY~ No, I am not ~oing to reduce the cost. ~J. NEARY_: The honourable minister said yesterday that he was ~o:i.np: to cut down on spendinp- in that category. .TM - 3 MR.

HICKEY: I said I was goinp to reduce what went on in terms of n.,aterials, !'f~.---~-:....1\~Y:_ Well, Mr. Chairman, let me say to the honourable minister if that is what he wants to do is get Personal. Sir, there was nothing the honourable -- MR •. HICKEY: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman,did I get personal or did the honourable r,entleman - MR. NEARY:_ MR. HICKEY: . - ----- ·--- The honourable minister is getting paranoidal. ts he. admi ttinp.: somethinr.? I did not say anything. I said T. was p:oing to eliminate ~,;,hat went on in terms of buildinR materials. Is he accepting - MR. NEARY: MR •.

CHAIRMAN: floor. Is that a point of order, Mr. Chairman? Order! The honourable member for Bell Island has the MR, NEARY: Well, Mr. Chainnan, I was starting to say there. that T make no apology for money that was spent on materials to repair houses in this Province whether it was on the Rlackhead Road, whether it was over on Bell Island, whether it was clown in Torbay or Pouch Cove or in the head of the Bny or out in Stephenville or out in Grand Falls or Winsor. It did not m,3.ke any difference to me, Sfr. t make no apologizes for it. As a natter of .fact, Mr.

Chairman, I would have loved to be able to spend one thousand times as much as I spent on repairinp. houses 2949

June 22, 1972 Tape 930 in this province hecause it is needed, Sir, absolutely necessary. There are houses in this province, Mr. Cha1rman, and I have been in them,where you can look up through the ceiling and .see the stars at night in the sky :m<l in the winter time the snow is dri ft:inp. alon~ under the chil<lren 1 s noses. Your Honour knows that. Memhers of this House know it, Sir, and then they are crit.cc:i.zing. Bell Island was no excer,tion, Sir. Bell Island was no exception. Since 1959 when the reoole over there were economi.cally marooned, no repairs on the:f.r houses.

At least they own their houses, S:l.r, thev were not subsidized by the government. They might not have been luxurious homes hut they own them and they are bcginnin.r- to fall down around their ears plus the fact that we had ninety houses passed over to mostly we1 fare recip:f.ents thnt were purchased under the special housinp.: programme. Mr. Chairman, what a ioke. So, Sir, we have to do this. It has to be done. I hope the honourable minister is s:t.ncere when he says that he i.s not goi.nr: to cut that vote.

Increase it, Sir, The honourable min:1.ster should never make apologies for rnoney that he srends on poor people. NR. HICKEY: I do not . . -·-----·---·- HR._NEARY: Never make apologies for it. MR. HICKEY:. I do not. MR._. NEARY: The honourable Minister of Finance I when he wants to balance the buc1p.;et1 he may go to the nd.nister and say, "Look take the .food off th·, tab le of the welfare red.pi en ts. u ~:-.~~B-~f_F:_~_: A point of order, Mr, Chairman. MR. NEARY:. What is the point of order? ~~-'. ___ gA_~'IJ::.R: A point of order. Hr. Chai.rman i the honourable member is shouting unnecessarily .loud.

The. record:i.np; equipment in this House and the amplification system :f.s - MR. NEARY: Is that a point: of order, Mr. Chairmnn? 2&50 JM 4

June 22, 1972 Tape 930 JM - 5 MR. CARTER: Yes. 1t certainly is 1 think, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I think it :l.s a point of order,esoeciall.y when not only do we get uncomplimentary epithets from the honourable member but also they are shouted. I do not think it is necessary for the honourable member to shout like that, like a bull, and I would sup:gest, Mr. Chairman,that he be asked to keep his voice reasonably moderate. ~-·~}II~A~X.: Mr.

Chairman, I will speak at my own leisure and I will speak as loud or as soft as I wish ,cmd if the honourable member does not like it he. can go up and sit in his savoury patch for the afternoon. No wonder, Sir, no wonder the honourable members are enharr.assed because they have such a - never mind. It would be unparliamentary if I said it, Mr. Chair.man, so I will not say it. I will not even say it to withdraw it. MR. HICKEY: We will let the honourable gentleman say it and then take it hack. Go ahead. It would be typical of the honourable gentlem.1n. MR. NEARY: What is wrong, Mr.

Chairman, what is wronp; with the honourable members they are so jumpy and cranky? What is wron? with ther·? MR. HICKEY: That is a sick way of chopping. someone to say something that is unparliamentary and then withdraw it. It has the same effect. The honour ah le ~entleman mac1e the srnc1c remark yesterday, 1 '0h 1. should not say it. It is unparliamentary and now I withdraw it.'! ~!_R_'._}l_E_~}~y_: Sir, I realize the weather is good so everybody is anxious to get out of here. I realize that. They do not have to p:et irritable and jumpy and cranky.

Take a tranquilizer and sit back, relax and enjoy it 1 as that :is what we were sent here for to debate, the issues. I am trying to debate the issues and T. am taking the high f':round, Mr. Chairman. I am keepin~ it above personalities an<l debatinr; the issue.s, S:I.r. I hope the. honourable member paid the extra ten cents 2951

June 22, 1972 Tape 930 a oack. But anyway, Sir, these are some of the questions that I would like to haw•. answered now that t have this off my chest, Sir, and 2952 JM - .;

June 22, 1972 Tape 931.(afternoon) PK - l HR, NEARY: I could talk, this is a subject that is very dear to ,;1y heart, I could talk about Social assistance, the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation, the adoptions programme, the boys and girls training •homes, the care of senior citizens and what have you. Why, Mr. Chainnan, I could talk about it for days, but I do not intend to 0 Your Honour can relax, Now that I have got it out of my system, let us go on and do the estimates item by item and maybe we will be out of here by Labour Day., who knows. MR, wnODWA_]!p_:_ Mr.

Chairman, seeing that the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation is administering the division of Northern Labrador Affairs and Services, I feel that it is fitting at this time to make a few brief comments concerning that department. Over the years, and going back to about sixteen years ago, when we first started the Northern Labrador Services Division, we have seen some great improvements in the Indian and Eskimo communities of Northern Labrador.

This has heen chiefly brought about by the Division of Labrador Affairs and the officials of that department and I speak very highly of the officials of that department, Mr. Chairman. I will reserve my comments on the minister's actions and participations, even only new to the Department of Social Services and Rehabilitation. But I stress the importance of carrying out this programme which we consider to be a very vital programme, vital in many ways and vital to the survival and the existence of our Indian and Eskimo population.

I would like to think in tenn.s of having very broad views and possibly extending that particular service into other areas of Labrador, mainly the Black Tickle Area.. Possibly when he makes his remarks here,he can expound on this particular aspect of it. I know and I can understand the ramifications of skipping over communities and going into other communities, that there may be some controversy develop. While I am speaking JI am glad to see that the Minister of Labrador Affairs is in his seat after being absent for 2&53

June 22, 1972 Tape 93l(afte.nwon) PK - 2 MR. WOODWARD: a few days, We d:f.d miss him . Possibly he can pay attention to what is going on, as far ns Northern Labrador Serv:tces, which I feel is one of the vital th:tngs to the Department of Labrador Affairs, No doubt the responsibility of both m:f.nisters and Soc:tal Services and Rehabilitation will be overlapping in this particular area and if we do not have co-ordination and good communications between the two departments maybe some. of the residents will suffer because of this.

But we have had a tremendous programme and I would like at this ti.me to ment:ton the Director of Labrador Services, Mr. Ross King, who have not only given his expertees and ability to Labrador but possibly put a lot of feeling and his p8rsonal concern into the development of that area. He has done an excelhmt job, Sir, He spent a number of years living in the northern conrrnunities knowing, possibly by first. name, most of the residents in the five communities north of Goose Bay. Mr.

K:l.ng has given a real good serv:tce 0 I understand the problem fully and I hope that when he makes h:ts recommendations to the department that the m:f.n:tBter in his wisdom w111 see fit that those recommendations are implemented. He does have a vast knowledge of what is going on, Sir, poss:tbly more than any other individual :f.n. the Department of Social Services and RehabiU.tation. There are a number of items that I would like to elaborate on and one of them possibly is the part:l'.cipation of local people in the NSLD programme.

Over the years we have been br1ng1.ng do'°m people from the island, setting them :t.nto key positions in the communities, such as store managers, clerks, power plant operators, we have been bringing :f.n fishermen, carpenter foremen for the housing projects and the school. I would like to think in terms of maybe upgrading some of the residents of the community ,,through some progra.mme 1whereby they can fit in to do the jobs that are now taken by the outsiders or by people from the island. This may not come about over a short period of time, Mr. Cha:1.rman. I am sure thilt the minister will agree that 2!154

June 22, 1972 Tape 931 (afternoon) PK - 3 , MR. WOODWARD: maybe in the next few years. if we take a very serious look at this problem, then, in conjunction with the commun:t.ty councils that we have now in the communities, the citizens of those communities will look after their own affairs and possibly develop on the same level as normal 1common1 ordinary communi.ties on the island portion of the province.

I am surP. that the MinistP.r of T.ahrador Affairs will agree with me in this respect that there have been some dissension about people cominr :f.n from the outside and taking over the jobs that the natives feel that they should rightfully be entitled to.

In this respect t hope that we will take a very serious look at this~ The communities now are becoming viable communities because of NSLD participation and while I am on that subject, Sir, there is a great assistance from the federal p,overnment. l understand that ninety percent of what· is spent on the Indian communities, like Northwest River and Davis Inlet, ninety percent of the participation is through the federal plan. I stand to be corrected on that, if the minister wants to correct me.

And sixty-six percent of the expenditure for housing, fish plants and things of that nature do come from the Federal Department of Northern Indian Affairs, for the Eskimo population. There are chang:i.nP, tin es in Labrador, both in the north and in the south. We have coming up relatively young, brilliant people, coming throup,h our upgrading systems, particular in the school at Northwest River.

A number of our Indian population are attending the upgrading school and a number of our people, we have one particular person in the House today that came up to be a teacher and teaching in that particular school, possibly one of the first of the Indian population in Northwest River. So I would like, Sir, for the honourable minister 1 in his wisdom 1 to take into consideration having a plan or some sort of an upgrading programme so that those people can be upgraded to govern their own 2&55

,Tune 22, 1972 Tape 931 (afternoon) PK - 4 MR. WOODWARD: affairs, to take over the development of their own community and to carry on the work of those communities w1.thout interference from people corning in from the outside.., Not necessar:lly, S:l.r, I do not mean that you will take the administrat:i.on of government away from them. They would equally like to be under Municipal Affairs or under the Department of Social Servi.ces and Rehabil:l.tation.

But with the community councils now we feel and I am sure the population of those communities feel that we should have some system whereby they can gradually move in to take over the running of the affairs of the community, as well as help in the development o.f the industry that :ts taken place around them, for inatance, the sawmill at Northwest River.. We hil'e a number of loggers and sawers, if you want to call them that~ from the Island portion of the province. We like to feel that those jobs will eventually go to the native population and in turn they w:tll themselves run this particular operation.

We hnve met with nothing but great success at the fish plant in Na:ln lat:;t year. 2(J56

June 22J 1972, Tnpe 932, Page 1 -- apb which was so ably conducted by one of the people who W<·tS sent in from the Department of Norther Labrador Affa:trs. The thinp.­ got off to a very good start. We did hire for the very first time an alMost complete E3kimo population to run the affnirs of that fish plant. Last winter the comm.unity for the first time had some economic stability along with the LIP programme that we had p,oinr,' We saw a consicl.erable amount of money into the community.

I li.ke to think in terms now, and I feel that it is in the estirnntes,(and maybe the hon. minister while he 1s havinp.; his smoke on the outside wHl hear what I am sayin_p-) we had planned to put a similar f.i.sh plant in the \>ommunity of ~1akkovik. I see in the estimates that there are some seventy thousand dollars there for fish plants and equiprr,ent. I hope this is for the Community of Mcdd<ovik.

This, Sir, will tie in a complete link, (as my collear;ue mentioned yest€?rday, the honourable member for Bell Island) this will give the whole coast. from the northern portion of it to the southern portion, from !fain to Cape Harri.son. the opportunity to take advantage of the two fish plants. Similar type processing p,oes on with the artic char and the salmon. If this thj_np: is taking place this year, I am sure that i.t will be Helcome news for the people of :t,1akkovik .:-:.s well as thP. people. of Postville.

C.oinr, on to think in terms of the extension and havinf! the services of NLSn extended to Black Tickle, it has been a priority, Sira 1. am sure that the hon. minister does have correspondence from the tnedical director, Doctor Paddon, as well as other people on the federal level. There is no doubt the honourable members of this House saw,last year, some cH.p-pinrs from a national magaz1ne stating: that the -poverty that exists in the Commnnity of Black Tickle in Labrador was unl.ike anything e.lse that exists in Canada today.

Hopefully, the minister in his wisdom will see fit to talk to our counterparts :i.n Ottawa and p;et sufficient funds to develop that community, wi.th his experte.es, his officials, along the same lines as 2::i57

June 22, 1972, T~rpe 932, Page 2 -- apb we have developed the Communit:les of Hopetfole, Nain, Davis Inlet and Postville. I would like to go a little .further, Sir. When I think in terms of a senior c:t.tizens' home, there have been recommendations made that a senior c:1.tizens home would go in Northwest River. 'l'his Commun:f.ty of Northwest River is gradually becoming an institution town because of the fact that most of the services spreading out to the coast of Labrador, both north and south, :f.s spearheaded from the Community of Northwest River.

We feel that for the elderly citizens liv:l.ng 011 the Labrador Coa.st as well as a number of elderly c:f.tizens in the Comrnuniti.es of Goose Bay and Happy Valley, moving dm.m to the island to f.'.O 1.nto a home, :f.solates them from all the contacts they have had in their lifetime., the culture gap :l.s too p.reat. The morale of the people suffers p.reatly he.cause of the gre<1t change caused by taking them £row 8 small community like Postvl.lle and puttinp- them in the Hoyles Home. here in St. John's or in some other inst:f.tution.

He feel that for that particular reason, there should be a home established :l.n Northwest River. No doubt the honourable minister does have correspondence from concerned citizens of Labrador concerning the home at Northwe\st. River. W~ would like to see this thin~ accomplished. I know it cannot be done in a short period of time,_, but no doubt there can he some planning for it.

There have been a number of thinp,s, and maybe one of the most critfoal suhjects that is brought up on the Labrador Coast is the base s1.1ppJ.y purchasing by the Department of Supply and Ser\Tices. (Seeing thn t the honourable '.M"inister of Supply and Services is i.n his seat tochi.

y) This has developed into a very critical area. Supply and servi.cefl aTe clone through the government procedures, and it has been carried out fol' a long t:tme. I feel that it is a very rtgid system and it does not fit the type of purchasing that :l.s needed in the retail stores that are run by the government in the Northern Communities. 2fi58

June 22, 1972, Tape 932, Page. 3 -- apb We do not have the variety of thinp;s that the ruhlic demand. Seei.np; that the economic means of the communities do not len<l themselves to commercial enterpri.se, then the Derartment of Supply and Services should see fit to stock the items, not only the necessary i terns like food :ttems that are needed jn those particular retai.1 stores but they themselves should stock what is needed or demanded l.y the public.

The system that we have,whereby you go out to our tenderinp. system at numerous times, people have been left for as high as three to four weeks with items not being on the shelf, These are subsistance iteri.s that are necessary to their diet. This -practice has been takinr­ place. I tried, I met with the Minister of Supply and Services. I am glad that the honournble. Minister of Labrador Affairs i.s here~ I think it 1-R a ser.i.ous item. I do not know if he airees with me that it is a serfous item.

It is very unfortuante that neither one of the three ministers concerned with this. narticular function have had the opportun:f.t:les or have visited those particular communities. 1 tru.st that duri.ng the sumrr:er they wi.11 see fit to p.et out to the T..rihrr1d0r Coast and see for themselves what rea .. ly is takin~ placC'. and see, hefore naviration closes next year, i.f there is some way or means wherehy we can chanr,e that system of purchasing.

I understand through thf' offi.cials of the Department of Social Services and n.ehahilitation~ that they have an expediter in the department now who is looking aft.er this particular item. The stock is not suffici.ent. There must be some expertise whcrehy people who are familiar with the retail trade_ there has to be some l~titude of purchasinp.- It does not have to be on that rigid, strai.ght--line path that we have been followinr: - because of the fact that people are depending on this.

I would also urp:e the honournhle minister to see fit to offer inc~ntive.s so that some enterprising younp- people living in those cormriuniti.es would go into the commercial business, to establish that and hring i.t up to a certain level. It i.s unlike, Hr. Chairm~.n, any other community and I ;:im sure that very few people 2~59

Jun0. 22, 1972, Tnpe 932, Page lf -- apb on the Island of Newfounrlland are famil:f.ar with or have to depend on government retail stores for their supplies.

This becomes a very ritid thing 0 Not that the managers of those partJcular depots rire not competent, t,1ey are, they are preat people, but our systern has to have some flexibility in it wh~rehy :Lt lends itself to the people and not necessarily to the laws that are governi.ng or. dictatinr, to our honourable Minister of Supply and Services. 'J.'here have been some hardships suffered because of this 1md we do have some, I suppose, some d:t.sgruntled c:ltizet1s livj.np.; in those cornmunit:f.es. I feel t:ha.t the only way we can p.ive them or rnee.t them half way "is by chanrdng this pt,rticular system.

A b:1.g: concern of mine has been whether we can develop the commun:t ties so thil.t they can have a viable economic base to support prlvate enterprise, or else we have to ext€md or expand the. particular system that we already have. AN HON. MEMBER· Are there any private individuals doinp: business in -·•·-•··-····-·- -·- ------ Nni.n and other places? !-f_R.. WOODWA"R_D_: __ We have one part:lcular person in Nain who is dealing pr:1.mHrily Ln a small way •.. A_N HON. ?v'EMBT~:n_:_ A confectionary store? :f',ff(.

W00D"HARD· A confect:tonary store, but it does not lend itself to the type of industry that exists there. AN )-ION._ MENBER: Why does :.1.t not? i'IR. WOODHA~)?_: Because of th!:! fact that th1.s person is an elderly person now, he is about ready to retire. No doubt some of his relatives will feel" free to develop the business to the extent

,Tune 22, 1972 Tape No. 9·:1J' NC 1 whereby they can. get t,rnt. Aga:1.n, Sit', as you may recall, we hav0. not yet had a ship into Nahl, The dcmamls on a con~mcrc:t.nl businer~s1•1an whereby he has to bring Jn, Jn the northern communit:i es, an inventory of stock that would last him for sight months of a year, this :i.s a tremendous strain on any businessman, today w:lth the terms of credit norm::\l.ly thirty days., So there has to be a great di.splay of money or nn output of money -Ln order to conduct business tn those commun:tties <1rn! consequently p!:!ople nrc not that far advanced economically and they do not have the means. ~faybe the hon, minister can take thiH into his str.-t.de ;md

whereas they do have to supply it to a certain degree, maybe this will lend itself to helping some of the people who h,ive the c:ommunity at. heart and have some husiness ab:llity to help to develop this type of commerc:tal industry. There is no doubt 1 :l.n the Commun:f.ty of Nain, last year there was a lot of money spent. If a person wanted to go ahead in private business for. himself, he could have done veTy well. But this area is an area where we would like to see lt develop to t:h8 extent whereby the people :In the commun:1.ties can govern their own affairs.

We would like to see the f:i.sh plant at Makkov:f.k go ahead,, \.,e would also like to see some re.direction of the saw mill at Northwest River and possibly a look at some sort of a holding depot in the Community of Hopedale. Those funds are largely federal funds, they come from the federal government. I understand, and maybe the hon. ministE?r can expound on this, the provincial government do the inter:f.m financing for short rJer.i.ods of time, unti.1 they are reimbursed by the Government of Canada. So those are. the quest:lons that I would like to ask.

In my remarks I would like to see both m:f.nlsters, the Minister of Supply ,who is going to get heavily :l.nvolved in this particular operation, I see that we are r,o:tng t:o spend this year, in the estimates,$800,000. on 21161

,fone 22., 1972 Tape No. 933 NC ·•· 2 services and goods for the retail stores, the honourable Minister of Labrador Affa1rs and no doubt the Hintster of Social Services,and Rehabilitat:J.on, who is d:l.rectly involved with the thing, tl.e thing comes directly under his gu:tdance, and I would like to see both m:tn:t.sters, the three ministers> take a very active

part in that. He have a lot of disgruntled people. We have people that it has been difficult fo-r u~; to communicate w:Lth over the years. They deserve the same servi.ces that we are getting here on th:f.s Island of Newfoundland and ut'l.tll they get those particular services they are not going to be any happieT than they A.re now and :1.n some Jnstances they are not very happy. MR. HICKEY: Hr. Chairman, I will first of all deal with a couple of things ra:tsed by my hon. friend from Labrador North and when we come to the w,te, Northern Labrador Services, I arn sur.e we can prov:f.de much more :t.nformation.

May I say to him first of all that my department has some plans for. that area :Ln which we service to the Northern Labrador Services. The poU.cies that we are trying to dnv:l.se are in the:lt 1-nfancy. I am afra:l.d that I cannot really give too much information on them at this stage. I will say, however, that it is our belief that we have been in the buwtnesfJ in Northern Labrador long enough,, along the lines that we are in it right now. I do not think it is any place for government to be. I think it should go back and be placed in the hands of the pr:l'.va.te sector 1 under the- Free Enterprise System.

I. would hope that we could work towards that direction, always providing of course that we can be assured that not even the same level o.f service b.ut in fact improved service will be provided. We are very conscious of the aren, very consc1.ous indeed of the_ problems that have become so pronounced especially during the time of the year when navigation is closed. 2!.i62

.June :?.2, 1972 Tape No. 933 HR. HICKEY: I. can say to him too, vc.ry quickly, that the concern of the people of }fokkov:f.k :Ln relatton to a f.U~h plnnt, I th:lnk we can have some good new[~ for them on that.

I thtnk the area of Labrador,which he ts concerned about part:tcularly, needs a thorough goinp,-over, I hopeJ in conjunct:ton with my colleague, the Minister. of Labrador Affa:l.rs, 1.ndeed my colleagu.e,thf± Ninister of 3 Supply and Scrv:l.ces, we w:lll he getting together in an effort to improve where we can 1 for the immed"tate future, and to allevJ.ate hopefully some of the problemr-1 that we have encountered during the past few months. As I said, when we come to the heading, we can get into some det;:dh~d information on it. Mr.. Chairmc.

m) I should like t·o d~~al with some of the matters, I am not ~mrf' I even got a.ll of them as r:aised by my fr:l.en<l the hon. member for Bell Island, the former minlsti.;!r of the department for wh:f.ch I am now responsJ.ble. I should say ftrnt of a.U that it ts a plemmre to get a bit of fresh a:f.r from my hon. friend, the member for Northen1 Labrador. The hon. member for Bell IsL:rnd yf.~nterday afternoon, in starting off his remarks,, talked about :J. works programme, He says that before he left his department, he wm1 worki.ng on this p,<rticula.:r item and would have gotten :!.nvolved in it.

What r. am surprised at is that tn fact his department did not get involved in it while he was in office. He was there for three years. What I was even more amazed at, a matter· which I investigated, was the fact thnt the hon. John Monroe, Minister of National Health atltl Welfare, made a release some couple of months ago; that Prin-ce Edward Island nnd Newfoundland we:ce the only two provinces, in the Atlantic regJon at least, who did not take advantage of works programmes. Now, Mr.

Chd.rman, dmm through the years, certainly it is not fair for me to label the hon. member for Bell Island as being responsible tot.ally,for he was only there three years. The former

Jurw 22,, 1972 Tape No. 93.3 NC - I~ HR •.. l_lTCKEY:. administr.i1t:lon had been in office twenty-three years and Jn the twm1 ty •three yE:ars, M-r:, Chn l.rnmn, of various admi.nistra.tions. ),ut t:hnt s,:1mC'. 1;:,rty that was in powi~r df.d absolutely nol'ldnr, to rehahilitate the people of th:f.s provlnce whorthrnur,h no f<wlt of their own, find themselves as recipients of my department.

Thd.r every move was to f',.lve hut not to help, clif'ih out: thE: mom.~y but no ,t.ll1cd services to bolster the effort or :lt\dN..d to J.mprove or he.lp. not a sin~,_.te penny wn:-: ever contained in an c~stiiiwtc under tlw heading of rehnhl1Jtttt:ior:, Nothing, Some yean; hnck, I mn not sure just hm,' many hut dor-1.nr; the rori1wr m:lni,;tei:',.; tenur·e: of offic0, he l>i:nught n bill .lnto th.if.; Hou~;e, Mr. Chel!.nnrm, clvtnglng the nnme of th~ Dep<1rtment of: Puhlic Helfare !.o the Dcpnctment of Soc.!al Services and Relwhi.l.1.t.:ition.

I !1ad the !1onour at tliat tbnc to sit on tlie ot!1er Hide of tl1e ll1Jttse, as a member of the opposltf.on~ I recall, Mr. Ch;.1i.rnmn, very vivldl.y hc:lnp, one of the flrst to }~et to tr.y feet and lta-1..l. t.lt!8 ar:; a worthwh1.l.e move indeed, with one reservat:Lon, Mr.

Cltni.rrnan, with one n•};e1·v,:1tlon; t.hnt bctng that that would not lw i.n name only, that :l.n effect at .I ast someth"lng would he done a.l.ong the Lines of rdrnhiJ l tat:l.on, alonp, clie lines of prov:ldJ.nr, ,;ome fwrvice8 to those uuforttmnu: pcoplE> who, r satd, throuij1 no fa!!lt of the.ir. 01,m, have so many problems npart from the l.nck of finances to provldc for ttH~i.r fanllU.es.

June 22, 1972 Mr. Hickey, Tape no.934 Pag I - MRW I will not go so far as to say that the honourable minister assured me. I do not think in fact he did. I do not think he was probably in a position to do so. But certainly people on this side of the House 1 at that time certainly did give every assurance that this in effect was the whole basis for the change. In three years, Mr. Chairman, not a move was made. Mr. Chairman, the federal government made funds available for work projects for depressed areas.

All the other provinces in the Atlantic region except the two that I mentioned; namely, Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island, took advantage. Now it is true, Sir, that the federal people did not and could not at that time provide funds for capital. They were prepared to share in the cost of labour. Hr. Chairman, in relation to my department and all of· those thousands of abled-bodied men who have to come to us for aid, those are the people whom W(~ want to help. The real emphasis, Hr. Chairman, is on jobs. Labour costs is really the word that we have to underline here and that is the cost of labour.

What did the former administration do about it? They did nothing. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, the few dollars it would have taken for capital to involve this province and so many of our people who were in receipt of assistance in those work projects would have been but a drop in the bucket us compared with the amount that was wasted in so many ways.

Here again, Mr, Chairman, I make this statement and I make it without any reservation, having being a former field worker in this department, One thing that has become increasingly clear down through the years, both when I was in the field and when I sat on that side of the House, whether it was intentional or otherwise is not for me to say, I am not one to prejudge or condemn but it certainly appeared very much so that the former administration were not the least bit concerned about reducing the number of people who had to depend on welfare for a livelihood. In fact, Mr.

Chairman, the more that were on could have well been considered to be a casted vote, people who were controlled, people who could 2&65

June 22, 1972 N:r~ Hickey, Tape no. 934 Page 2 be depended upon not to let the government down when election time came. Mr, Chairman 1 those people who think that today could not be more na:i.V(:., If in fact, Mr. Cha:t.rman, this was the intent, all 1 can say 1 l do not have the words to describe it. I will just say that it :i.s be.neath contempt.For any government or any min1ster or any m;,.n 1;!hO will chart the course of an ind1.v:l.dual or individuals to keep them in a state of dependency on the state, on a government? do not deserve, Mr.

Chairman? to hold office and do not deserve to sit in this House, that ls why, Mr. Chainnan, that it is like a dream come true to me for how ever long I shall be mlninter, that at least J. will make one little mark in the history of this department 1 that that rolicy will cease and :ln fact 9 it has ceased. We w:l . .ll emba:rk on a programme of rehabilitation this yearp small and maybe insignificant though it be, but Ke will change that course, Mr. Chairman 1 that has robbed from many of our. people their initiative. that has robbed and has take the very marrow from their bones.

Some politicians do not have the courar,e to admit it nor to make that statement. I make no apology for making it because 1 Mr. Chairman 1 over the yea;i:;-s l have had the unfortunate exped.e.nce of rubb:t.ng shoulders. 'lt is a pretty sad commentary after twenty three years to f"i.nd in a province where the feder.al government have become so heavily involved in the way of fi.nancial aid, to find that the cost of welfare and the numbers, Nr, Cha:lrma.n 1 of recipients in this department continue to soar. Yet we hear people laugh when this government talks of planning a.nd priorities. Mr.

Chairmc1n 1 let me say to this honourable House that I have been in consulation with some federal officials in Ottawa and I ha.ve met with them here in the province and in the not too distant future,hopefully, I will gct to Ottawa to discuss i.n detail some plans for work projects in this province. I think I can say? Sir, that the door is opening, more quickly than possibly we realized 4 to where t.he federAl people will get involved in capital costs. I believe we have been able to conv.ince. them. If there is any cure for the state of dependency that

June 22, 1.972 Hr. Hickey. Page 934 exists in this province and other provinces, it has to be through federal/provincial participation in work projects. Be they created by government or industry, 9 Who ever they are created by, there is one basic solution to the almost $60 million that we expend each year or certa.i.nly this year: and that is basic jobs. One cannot just wait for this government or this province to develop along economic lines through industry to provi.de jobs. If we do not have a programme of rehabiliation and if we do not have a works programme~ Mr.

Chairman, when the jobs come, when the jobs become available, we will have nurtured and fostered a generation which will not want to work, That may sound, Mr. Chairman, a kind of condemnation of my fellow Newfoundlander. Let me make sure thut that statement is not misinterpreted. The number of people today who will not take a job,ao compared with the number who are in receipt of assistance,are indeed a minority. Thank God for that~ But, Mr. Chairman, we must start now and in fact :i.n starting now we are late. If we do not start, the number will steadily 1.ncrease.

Our people are human beings. \~1en we provide assistance which is so closely related to what one can earn in the labour markets, what do we expect our people to do? For them to give us welfare and go to work for less money? Give it up and go to work for the same money? Mr. Chairman, I am proud to say that I am a believer in the people of this province. I believe that we have a lot of good, strong, conscientious men left. Whatever it takes, Mr.

Chairman, whether my remarks are misinterpreted or not, I would be less than honest if I did not express my concern about the increasing number of people who (1) will not take jobs; and (2) who do not make that extra effort to go look for them. I think it is fair, Mr. Chairman, for me to say 1 in reply to the hon. gentleman from Bell Island, who talks about his concern for the poor, he has to be born over again, Hr. Chairman, to be more concerned than I. I worked in the field. Whatever he learned when he was minister for three years I submit, Sir, he did not learn as much as I did because he has 2:ii:l7

June 22. 1972 Tape no. 934 Page 4 Hr. Hickey. not be.en 1.n the number of homes where poverty is so evi.dent and that in the only wny to learn. We all can stand

June 72., 1972 Tape 935 JM - 1 here and get up tight about poverty. I have heard it, Mr. Chairman, in the five vears I sat on the other side and I suppose nohody expounded anv more than l did mvself. But, Hr. Chairman, I alll the first to say that th:f.s nroblem needs more than ventilat:lon. It neerls morC' than ta]k. It needs more th.:;1n words. Tt needs action r-i.nd thank Gocl,after twent:y~·t:hree years ,this province has a p;overnment that is goinr, to rive some action to that probleri1. So, Mr.

Chctirman, with regards to work programmes, in the ver.v near future I hope to be able to announce some headway in this connect.ton. We wi.ll determine the are,-:r.s where we will r;ct involved and where we w:i.1.1. hire our people and get them to work ancl determine just whnt course we should follow or how far we should get involvecl in this kind of propramme. Mr. Chnirman, another :f.tcm my honourahle friend mentiom'!d was the guaranteed annual income nnd he said agafn,shortly hefore he .left office that he was working on a plan. Mr.

Chairman, as I snid before, I do not preiudp;e and I do not condemn in a lot of instances even when I can. T do not come here to war with anyhody but I have to say in fairness, Sir, that if he had a plan rer,arding the guaranteed anmrn1 :i.ncon1e he must have taken it with him with everythinr else out of his office, in fact out of the department. Because, Mr. Chairman, I have found nothing and I can assure him ap,ain there was nobody more 1.nterested in the guaranteed annual income or an incentives pror.rarrime than t. t talk to my deputy minister, Mr. Chairman.

We have such a relationship :f.n fact that we are constantly in discussion on the p:uaranteed mmual income, the incentives programme, the works programme ancl everythinr- else. I heard something about it but where was it? The least the honourable minister could do,if he wanted me to carry on with something he startec\was to leave it. I would he the first to 2&69

Jmw 22 i 1972 Tape 935 stnnd here and give h:l.m credi.t for whatever contribution he would make. 1f he s:i.ts .lorn! enottf-;h and waits long enough whi.1e my est:i.rnates ."!.re r.oinr, throwr,h,l mip.ht have some words of credit and sowe words of praise for him in rela.ti.on to certa:f.n head:f.nr:s,when we come to thel.ll. Mr. Chrd.rman. it ~oes not take years or in fiH~t 111onths to deter.rn:f.ne what is neEicleCT insofat" ns the p:uaranteecl annual income -f.s concerned in thi.s province.

The p,-naranteed ,mnua.1 income in :i.ts present form t1rnt i.s outlin~d hy the Ji'ederaJ. peonle is not wot"th :i.ts s1-11t without some hu:l.lt-~i.n incentive, Here was the area, if the honour-.:ihle i~entlern:m was wor1d.nv 011 the guaranteed annual income, thnt he should havE.'. applied h:t.s efforts. The lrns1.s for it is already establ:i.shed hy Ot tnwa. 1•!hat we have to do as a province, :ff we nre p.oJng to i.nvolve oursf';lves 1 is to deternd.ne some incentives so tlrnt we do not destroy even further thf' ini.ti.ative of our Of'ople t.hnn we ar.e do:J.nr; at the mom~mt. So, Mr.

Chairman, alonp; those .1:inep, the honourable Mi.ni.ster of Educati.on and some peop:le from the university and myself h.1.d alreadv done some homework on th:l.s partJcular matter, WitM.n a matt0r of threr~ weeks after tnldnr- off:! ce we harl a Tl lan devi.s0d which was presented to my off:tcials, who took H :rnd applied :tt to every concei vahle case that one wottl(l nm :f.nto i.n this prov:f.nce from the adult to the family of eip:hte.en or seventeen, all worked out, 11-fr. Chai:rm;:\n.

Raislnr: the Btandards of our people, lettinr,. them work and rewarding: them for working and lettinp: them reach the stage, g:f.vinr, them some help as they went alonp; until finally the:l.r standard of llvinp, reached a point where they just fell off the payroll as it were arnl w0re self-$uffic:l.ent. Here was A programme, Mr, Chairman, that could chanp,e the face of thLs prov:tnce in terms of this department and the huge expenditure that we .:tr.e beJni:: asked to vote here today. The Federal people turned JM -

June 22, 1972 Tape 935 it down and as nsua1 1 for the reason that under the Canada Assistance Plan we woulr! he trcatinr: people differently. 'But, Mr. Chatrman, the arp;ument that has to be put forward to the Federal people and it is beinp. put :Forward and will continue to be put forward 1 is thA.t we are d:f.fferent peoole.

We are a different province and we have different problc~ms than any province in this Dominion,such as the highest rate of welfare, the highest rate of unemployment, the lowest income, lowest oer capita income, the lowest death rate, the hip.hest birth rate and I supnose 1 could go on to some others. At least we developed our case and, Hr. Chairman, it is foolproof the case that can be made for this province in relation to some kind of a different programme.

I am pleased to announce to the House that this programme is g-_oinr- to he continued and whatever lohbyinp.: is necessary or what­ ever needlinr is necessary ,;md however long it takes myself and my officials to r,_o to Ottawa and meet with those peonlc we will cont.im1P to nurs11t>. this programme hopefully and eventually to get it approved. JM So, "'1r. Ch<1irtnan. thf' guaranteed annu,11. income need not, I re.peat, need not bear tJ-w .1.ahel of the former administration,hccmrne there was none. There mir,ht hnve been some ideas. We all have some :f.deas.

Some of us might have some ideas of goinp to the moon but we might never get there. Th0re is nothinp: on paper nnd there is no official record. Mr. Cha:i.rnwn, another item the honourable r:entleman mentioned wmi what he d:i.<1. .for the stnp-le men of this province who could not rf:'ceive. assistance. He mnde such a case of it that it would almost mnke your he:::irt bleed to li.sten while he expounded on what a job he had to convince his colleagues, Mr.

Chairman, as lonp: as I have sat in this honourable House I have been led to believe that the former aclminL;tration was the most l:i.heral, most generous, most conscientious government of the poor that one has ever heard tell of and yet he tells us that he almost had to clo a song and dance to get i:!pproval for that. 3

June 22, 1972 Tape 935 JM - Nr. Chairman, nobody :f.n this government says to mc,as m:i.n:i.ster 1 you will not assist single men. In fact, Mr. Chairman, in line with the incentive programmes that I _iust touched on, one of the :i.mnrovernents that we made, this government, very shortly after t,1kin12 office and when we receivedf to our dtsn-ppntnn,ent I the answe.r from the Federal Government that our incent:f.ves programme could not he -put :f.nto effect~ one of the f:trst things we did, Mr. Cha:l.rman, was to make. at least a token effort to rebuild ln:l.t:f.ative where it was on the wane and to protect it where it was still intact. 2!i'l2

June 22, 1972 Tape 936 (afternoon) MR. HICKEY: So we Jmmediately implemented a programme which pe1,;d tted one adult to earn thrity dollars a month and still draw his assistance, two adults or more to earn sixty dollars a month and still draw their assistance. Hith the hope, Mr.

Chalrman, that this would insttll in some of our people the idea and the feeling that here was a department who wanted to help, that here was a department who <lid not want to save money at their expense but who really wanted to help to encourage those people to get out and p;o to work or look for work or try and find work that we stnrted or implemented this programme, I am sure, Mr. Chairman, as T. stand here today, that given time, given a year, we will see some tangible results from this programme.

A new d1.rection the honouraJ•Je gentleman talked about was required, a new direction wh:f.ch thi.s p,overnment is bringing to this department and which my honourable fr:1.end tells rne now :ls needed and T say to him, in all sincerity; what was he doing for three years that he di.cl not give us some new direction and w,e some new approaches? A lot of questions, Mr. Chai.rman, as to why the honourable gentleman did not do some of the things that he now talks about.

As I sat and listened to him yesterday evening and in his own subtle. way touching on personalities as he went along and annunicatinp_ some of the th:f.n.P:s that should be clone :1.n his department, I thought to myself I was almost convinced that ahortion had been legalized, made retroactive and the honourable p.:entleman had been born all over again. I could hardly helleve it. Then he touched on senior citizens'homes, he gets awfully upset about what is to happen in St, George's and he says that my colleague the member for St. George's would like to know.

Let me assure the honourable gentleman that my colleague from St. George's and I are very close together all of the time whenever it is necessary with regards to what goes on in his district,as that would apply to every other minister of this government. He need not worry about prov:l.dinr,

June '>0 , .. , .. 1972 Tape 936 (afternoon) tK - 2 NR •. HICKF.Y: 1.nformat:ton to the back benchers on this side, because they ctt'e given the information and nothing 1s done w:Lthout consultation with them. fhi.s, Mr. Cha1.Tman~ is the team approach that we talk about. This is not a one-man government, neither is it a one-•rnan department. As regards to the senfor citizens home,again there will be a new policy announced very shortly, ~ new policy which will have some pl.ann:f.ng in :lt, Mr. Chairman.

We are no longer ROing to fly by the seat of our pants and build :tnst:Ltut:Lon.<J wherever someone wt.shes to hnve one, only to find that someone from Lahrador ends up in St, ,Tohn 1 s :, :if he needs a bed. Th:ts government believes :ln the senlor d.U.zens of th:1.s province having the opportunity to end their twilight: years in an £trea as close to the environment in which they grew up as poss.i.ble. And along those lines, Mr. Chairman, we arc pui:s11:lnf a new pol:tcy. Thi.s p:rovi.nc.e will be charted 'f.n terms of insti.tutions where they are needed and also, Mr.

Chairman, it should be good news to the House when I inform them that there is also a new policy w:lth regards to the so-called r,uarantee. that the former admi.n1stration used to g:tve. The guarantee under the disguise, I mJght say, of a guarantee, '!his was a grant. Somebody talked about a guarantee, so and so tn such a place was given a gurantee. What do we call a guarantee, Hr.. Cha:trman? A r;uarante.e to make so much money available and then a guarantee to pay the annual amount that was required on that loan. That is not a guarantee that is an outright grant 4 Under the disguise of a gua-rantee that was.

That policy will cease to exist. Mr. Chairman, the situation with regards to the senior citizens in this province "' there :f.s one which has a place high on the list of pri.od.t:i.es with thi.s govet'nment and certainly of my department and a sane and sensible policy will be announced very shortly. AS

June 2.2, 1972 Tape 936 (afternoon) PK - 3 MR. HICKEY: regards to the Lewisporte situation,rnay I inform him there is no commitment that I can find, unless it went with the rest of the f'.il<.!S that nobody can find, to the peo-pJe of Lewisporte. But let me assure the people of Lewisporte, as I have already officially, in writing, that their application has not been rejected, far from it.

The people of Lewisporte, there are the people of Botwood, there are the people in other areas have been all informed that until such time as this government knows exactly where they are goi.np: and until we devise this plan, which has some sense to it, we will not make any further comm1tments. I assure the people of Lewisporte that they will not have to wait long before they get this information. A committee will be established to chart the course we follow in this connection. 'l'he same applies to the guarantee of ninety-eight percent occupancy. One of the pitfalls, Mr.

Chairman, in this policy is that if we do not chart a course and plot on the map where our institutions are going to go, we will end up very shortly with a situation where we have institutions which are not filled 1 for which this government or any other government will have to pay the b:lll. A ninety-eight percent occupancy guarantee, guarantees to pay for each hed whether that bed is occupied or not. That is another Liberal policy. So Liberal, Mr. Chairman, that it is liberal with the taxpayers money that is very scarce those days, and we are go:1.ng to do something about that.

As regards to the people of Grand Falls who must be upset and if they are I do not blame them,listening to what has come from this House from the honourable member for Bell Island,in his attempt to prod from me what was going on, Let me say publicly,and they have been notified, the senior citizens home in Grand Falls is going ahead. Again, Mr. Chairman, 1 the honourable member indicated the form.er administration made a commitment. The forme.r admi.nistration made no such thing. The form.er adm:f.nistration in a very vague way outlined policies and needs with regards to that area. But the former 2&75

June 22, 1972 Tape 936 (afternoon) PK - L~ 1-m. HICKEY: administration told the committee to proceed with arch:f.tectural plans, with the usual spade work that goes on, so that approximately eight thousand to ten th()usand dollars was expended. If :f.n fact this institution or project did not go ahead, somebody would be stuck with that hill. That ls the kJnd of planning, Mr, Chairman, that the former administration was involved in and yet they laur,h and jeer when we talk about plann.i.np, on this side. Another item he raised, Nr. Chairman~ was the C:t.tizens Ri.ghts Association. He says, :f.f he were mlnister now

June 22, 1972. Tape 937. Page 1. he would have to accede to thei'l.' request for a grant. I at no time refused the citizens rights association. Neither at any time did I say I would give them something, because money is not that plentiful Mr. Chairman. I do not make promises that I cannot keep,, That ls why I sit on this side of the House. Again, it is strange to see the change or to observe the ch,mge that has taken place in the honourable gentleman.

It was only a few months before he le.ft c;,fficetin a news release,that he labelled the Citizens I Rights Association as the bleeding heart, but now he says: if he were in office he would support them and give them a grant. Mr. Chairman, I acknowledge fully, as do my offid.als and as do this government, the role of th@(;itizens' Rights Association. But the i.tem that appeared in the paper wherein i.t was stated that my offic:lals pass on cases to the Citizens I Rights Association for investigation is totally incorrect. The opposite,Mr. Chairman, is true.

The whole purpose of the Citizens' Rights Association :ts to protect and to investigate or have invest:i.gated by the wPlfare officials any posstble injustice or unfair treatment that is handed down. Mr. Chairman, the removal of politics from my department, with the removal of interference of my offici:;11s 1 the Citizens' Rights Association of th:.1.s province have a much easier task to perform today, because people in this province today,Mr. Chairman,they get what the law will prescribe, what the policy will prescribe no more no less.

That is not to me that they do not have a place in society, that they do not have a place in this province. Anythi.ng that I can do,Mr. Chairman, to help them, my door is always open,and I certainly have helped them. In fact we have already assi.sted this group in a small way with some equipment. 29'77

June 22 1 1972. Tape 937. Page 2. Mr. Chairman, Hnally, there are a number of other items hut I am not goi.ng to cover them until we come to the heading. The. honourable gentleman mentioned staff. He says that in that department there is the most competent staff of any department of government. It may not be very often,Mr. Chairman, that we agree, But we sure agree on that. We hrtve a most competent staff. My only compla:f.nt, Mr.

Chainnan, may I say before I. go further, whatever l have sa:i.d, whatever I say now or whatever I w:l.11 say :tn the future,in relation to thlise estimates A.s related totally to the honourable gentleman whHe he was minister o.f t.h"ls department and not. to him personally. :Cam not about to :I.nvolve myself in person.:1lity assassinations nor personality d:tscuss:i.cms. My critic5.sm is directed nt his office as mi.ni.f;ter. I do not: think.Mr. Chairman, when the honourable gentleman was minister he 1-ealized what a competent staff he had.

I do not think he realir.ed how profess:l.onal they werep because I think, if he did he would not have interfered w:i.th them as nn.1ch as he did. He would not have run rot1ghshod over some of them as was the case. I am sure if the honourable gentleman probably had his time to go over he would have left his department with much more admiration from h:Ls staff than he had when he left. There is one thing,Mr.

Chainnan, it Js a cardtnal rule in this department right now, That is the minister does not interfere with the staff in the -performance of thelr duties 1unless it is clearly ind1.cated that some staff members are incapable or inc_ompetetJ.t' of per.forming thej_r dt.tty or unless there is an injustice or a case which needs to be reviewed. But the day is gone,Mr. Chairman, when a welfare officer will pick up his phone and hear the mini.ster on the 1:1.ne telling h:i.m what to do.

June 22, 1972. Tape 937, Page 3. There is a chain of command in my department and that chain of command is well picked, well suited and well qualified to do a most difficult and professional :Job and they are doing it and doing it well. As long as that situation prevails 1 Mr. Chairman, my pol:lcy ts hands off) let them do it. I go to the chain of command when I want anything and that will be my pol:£ cy ns long as I remain minister. I think the honourable gentleman also raised a question about the assistant deputy minister. One of my assistant deputy ministers,Mr.

Roy Roberts 1who retired, Thffre was no better place,Mr. Chairman, to make the announcement thfln in this honourable House. I am pleased and proud to announce that that position hai1 been filled and filled by a very comµetent and capable man in the person of Mr. Ross King, formerly of Northern Labrador Serv:i.ces. Mr. King brings to his post a wealth of knowledge and ex-perience ih one of the areas that he as assistant deputy minister will be very closely connected with and directly responsible for, at least over the person who will replace him as director of Northern Labrador Services. Mr.

Chairman, this applies to my colleagues and gentlemen on the other side as well. My colleagues are well versed in what the policy of this department is. My officials are well versed in the policies and regulations of this department. When they are let alone they will do a commendable job. I implore all of you to leave them alone, do not interfere, make representation by all means, We have a lady who is most professional, in the person of the director of enquiries. If you direct your enquiries to Mrs. Crawford, I assure you that you will get the necessary action.

Whatever can be done will be done, but once we start dealing with welfare officers personally the system breaks down. 2&'19

June 22, 1977.. Tape 937. Mr. Chairman~ the other items as raised by the honour.able gentlemane I think I have covered most of them, The few that he raised today are under other headings I think we w:lll be at least able to prov:f.de additional information and rather than just comment generally on them I would pre.fer. to leave them and as we come to the heading will provide the in.f:ormatiun~ so that we can proceed. HR.NEARY: Mr. Cha:l.rman, I wi:rn pleased to hear the minister say that M:c.

Rosu K:1.ng was appo1nted r(~cm1tly assistant deputy ndn:!ster of the (lepm:tment of Social Se1:vices $ Rehabil:f.tation because~ Sir, that was the. ve1·y same gentleman that I_ had recommended for the job before I left the department. It is pa:ct of the unfin:lnhed business that I wa,s 1.ma.ble to deal with when the honourable Premier formed the new admin:i.stration. Mr. K:lng, S:Lr~ 1.s an able man, lie is a competent man, capable :i.n every v1ay. He was the most likely choice for assi.sta.nt deputy m:i.ni.ster: and l want to congratul<1te him. He w:tll be, he was my cho:l.ce. I had to wa:lt because Mr.

Roberts was not retiring until the end of April or May so therefore I conld not announce the appointm'7-nt, I discussed it with Mr. King before I left the department. I am glad Sir, the m:tntster ha<l sense enough to follow through on the sele.ctton that the former administration had made. I want to congratulate Mr. King and wish him well i.n k!.s new job.

.Tune 22, 1 072 MR NEARY: Tape 938 A peculiar thin? happened th::f.s afternoon when the m::f.n:1.ster was expounding nhout th.e pror:rammcs that were goin? to be undertaken by the denartP1ent~ Sir. Let me first of all say that I would not dignify the minister's remarks about ·interfering with the sta.ff of the der,artment, S:f.r. I wonlcl not dignify to comment on them, The staff of that dc'!)artment at the present know the honournble minister as a liphtweight. l'he staff kr,ow that the honourable m:inister is just .i weir.:ht around the honourable Premier's neck. a walkin,r: narndox, Mr. Chaln:mn.

He is a J.:tp:htweir:ht and he is a heavywei,rr.ht. P.e :fs a li.rl1wc:f.p;ht in the r;ahinet anc! a heavy weight around the honourable Premier I s m~ck. Now, Mr, rhairr,,m, the inini.ster says, :·Yes, we are ,(~o::f.n7- to undertc1l:e syiec"ial works pror:rammes," Yes,the minister tells us this and, Mr. Chairman, every member o.f this House n.n<l everv citizen of this nrnvince knows that back in May when <1 resolution was put on JH - l the floor of th:is House anc'I dehated on private memb~~r's day, a motion callinp. for investigation of specinl works programmes, it was defeated hy the government, defeated. MR.

MURPHY: It is in Hansard, I imar,:tne. }·1:R.~ .. _N_f'~(IA'(.: It :ts not in Hcrnsard. It is a wel.1-lcnown fact, Sir. It is a matter of puhl:lc record, Nr. Chn-trman, a matter of public record that the F.lOt:i.on was defeated. that the p:overnment clid not believe :tn thls principle of creati.nr; work. They were ara:tnst it. The Minister of Fisheri.es says. ''Leave it to private enterprise. You are interferinr, with private enterrrise.· The member for St. John's South said, ·vou are pushinp.- soc:talism.·• Now the iuni.ster of Soc.ial Services- is there d::f.sension in the ranks, Mr. Cha:i.rman.

The Minister of Social Services stands in his place and says, · We are goinp. to go ahead. We are goinr. to implement special works programmes.'' I wonder if the honourable. - 2~81

June 22, 197" Tape 938 .TH - 2 M1L HICKEY: Hho :f.s 1.nltlaUnr, them? This Province? NR. NEARY: 1'1r. Cha.tr.man, I will de;:i.l with thnt because I did attend . ·-·"···-··-·-···-·-· a number of - ~!._R_~J.!T:..r.;_KE_.'L~ Initiated by the Federal Government. -~-'.----~~~--:- Hr. Chainnan, I did attend n number of federal-pr;.,vincial conferences for .Ministers of Helfare,wh0.n l was minister of that <lepartmentp Sir~ I can j_nform the honourable mJnister and members of this honourable House that T ptmhed hard t\N __ L~Q.~_. __ }1f-J'!.:f~:f,-~: l suppose you knm•-' _vour way aronnr.l Ottawa. ~~--~"T:..~!Y . .=..

Yes, t:hnt is what l do know my way Hround, Ottawa. I know my way around Ottawa aln1ost as well as thE~ hononrnhlc Premier does. You see, Mr.. Chairman, T. pushed hard to have funrls of the Canada Assistance Plan mack rivailable for specLtl works programmes because, Sh·, the reason that we could not po ahea<1 tn th:ls province was because,although the Government of Canada would pny fifty per·-cent of the labour cost,the.y wonld not contri.hut.e one penny towards the capital cost and l..ittls> ~old, poor Newfoundland could not go ahead, Si.r.

Ontario could, B.C. could, the we.a.lthy provinces could go ahead and carry out sped.al works programmes under the Canada Assistance f'l<m funds that were. ,wai1.nble but Newfoundland could not. Sir. I talked Ottawa :lnto changin~ that~ The honourable member f.or St. John's East looks at me. I did, the little fellow from Qnip.:ley I s L:inc, not from Gambo, the little fellow from Quigley' s Line 1 over on Bell IsL:md,.talked Ottawa into changing that policy, Sir, and now the funds are available both for canital and labour.

Not only that, Sir. but the Government o.f Canada 1 through the opportunity for youth prorramme and through the local incentives prop.;rammc, have created a great liberal princif,le Sir, a µreat liberal principle. The Tories do not believe in that, Sir. That -ts not their ph:1.losophy, not the:lr philosphy, Mr. Chairman. They do not he:lieve in it. 2&82

June 22, 1972 Tape 938 ~}'!_1:!.0B .. : .. }:!f-.~!:_"~: You do not understand philosophy that is why you MR. NEARY: Oh, listen to prate ... box down there in the corner, Mr. Chc1ir.man. Now. Hr, Chairman, we heard the min:f.ster spend about a half. an hour or so mouthing nothingness, Sir, nothin,r:. What programmes? Whot programmes is the honourable minister talking about? n No rehr1bilation 11 he says ''in the denartm1c~nt ~" No• rehabilation? He scli.(~ we nre P.:Oinf' to have rC"!hahil.:1t:ion. Hh<'.t is it they are r:otnp to do? The minister did not sav what thC"!y were r.oing to do.

MA_:_Jl_I_\:_I<;_f,_:7_:_ You would love to know, would you not? ?"-_~'.'... .. ~r~_1~v-: 1 would 1:f.ke to know and so would the tleOple of Newfoundland like to know. The ireatest joke of all. Mr. Chairman, the p.re<1test .ioke of nll he says/tliy door is always open'.' The door may be open. Sir, but there is never anybody there not accordi.nr, to the numh0.r of phone calls that come to the Opposit:i.on offices, Sir. th0. number of letters that T. receive dai.ly from welfare recipients across this provfnce and the numher of telephone calls JM -- 3 T r,et, Sir.

The rnin:i.ster did not tell tts who his executive assistant was yet or whnt the salary is. He did not tell us his name . . ?>!~-'- _H_T_(J:C."f_-:.Y.: Do you want to know1 Do you want me to tell you now? MR. NEARY: Yes. I would like to know. Let us have it. Hhen the -- -- --·------ honourable minister stands ur,. '1R. HICKEY: I said, ~ir. Chairman, at the outset, I r!id not wish to . - .... -·· -- - . get into personalities. I took a note of the ouestion aske,1 MR. NEARY: I yieJcled the floor to get the name of the minister's Pxecuti.ve assi.stant and I am not finished yet. NR. HICKF.Y: Hr.

Chairman, I had a reason for not giving it and I am about to explain it,:tf the honourable ?;entleman will sit down I will give it. ~~R~_!ff:.A_~Y_:.. All I. want is the name, Mr. Chairman. MR. HICKEY: T.foll, you arc r,oinp,- to get more than the name. 2&83

June 22, 1972 Tape 938 ~iR, NEARY; No, Mr. Chairman, l am not yielding the floor, MR. HICKEY! You are not yielding the floor, are you'? AJ 1 right then w'.:en I take my stan<l~ wlw.n I get trp again J. will give 1.t to you. 1 will give you more than that too. MR. NEARY: . --· ·"----~·----· Mr. Chairman, I am not going to stand here and he threatened by a minisu~r. MR. HICKEY: ··- .. -··· I am not· threatening. I was only r,oing to give him so111e J.nfor .. 1at! on. MR. Cl!AIR"1'-fAN: Order'. . ··•-----• --------- MR.

NEARY: Si.r.. l want to know the name of the executive assistant because, as l starte(\ to sny,nmy door :is a·l:ways open,·· he sa:i.d, ··always open. Hell. Sir, if it .Ls there :ls new!r anybody there because the welf,1.re recipients cannot ~et to talk to the mln:tster, SJ.r. Despite the m:tni.ster's plea, :rwrite Mrs. Crawford,'' he savs, ''she ls a very capable woman,•· and so she is, Mr. Chairman, a very competent woman, very capable,put there by my collearue, the Leader of the Opposition,as director of inq1.rirtes, a good cho:tce, a wonderful woman. I l.ike her very much.

But, Sir, he says, "Do not interfere.'" He nleads with members of the House not to interfere. Hr. Chairman, wonld the honournble min:18ter tell us why we arc elected. Why arc members elected to this House? So somebody will cal.f. up my eollcar,.ue here from Bonav"ista North or my colleague from Labra<lor North or Twill:tngate or the member for St. ,John I s South, if he can be reached, :i.f they can get through to him, if they can reach him or the member for St. John 1 t~ East if he can be reached or the member for St.

John~s Center if he is not stubbing his toe in the sw:i.1:1m:l.nr: nool, :t.f they can reach them, SJr, :i.f they can reach them, Nr. Chairman, - MR. CHAIRMAN : Order! The hencl:i.ng we are under is Heading Xl - Sod.al Services and Rehabilat:f.on, t1u~ management of that department is under di.scussion. HR. NEARY: . ·-····-·-·-·-·-·- Yes, Mr. Cha::l.rman, I realize that. So, Mr. Chairman.

Tape 938 when a welfare reciptent approaches c1 member of the House of Assembly they have done so as a r:Lghta That :ls their :r:!.ght. It is the~ duty nnd responsH,L!.ity of that member to take up th0 complaint with whatever nenwn he sees f'it,in the. interest of h:ls consLLtuent. I say, S1.r, that statement the minister made is hop;wash. The ministet' is an elect:ccl representatJve of the people and hJ.s door sho11ld be open, Sir, nnd he sho1thl be s:lt:t: i.nr~ .i.n !d.s of flee meetin.P; the MR. HICKEY: r do not have that many const:l.tuents on welfare. MR.

NEAR'(; 'l'h!c~ honovrablc m.i.u.!.ste.r says he does not have that many people on welfnre. The honourahle mi.nister represents a.lJ the peop.l.e of this province, Sir., all the people of th:ts province and they cannot pet to see h:lm. Not the kJncl of a policy that we nm, Si.r, we ran an open-door poli.cy. I:!~~--'--F.T~~K_F:.,'{_:_ I di.d not refuse the Cit:f_;;:ens' H:Lghts Group aid. HR. NEARY: ···- --·- " .. ···- --· ?,l_r, Chttirman, the ~dn:i.ster Bays he cUd not refuse thf~ C.ltizens'Rir,ht.s Group aid. Hell, Sir, in the tele~~rarn of Nay 4 and 1 quote and I can table th:1.s, Mr.

Cha:i. rman, the Ci tize.ns 'Rights r roup S<'lYS it has been riven a flat refusal. MR. J-lTCKEY: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman~ the honourable min:lster has been away for two weeks vnd now he comes back, S:lr, out of touch with reality and keep.s :i.nterruptin?,. Hr. ChaJrman, can I proceed wi. th my remarks wlthont interruption from tlw chief's scati' Si.r, it Snys here; p.;:tvcn a flat refusal. 2985 3M - 5

Juue 22, 197? Tape No. 939 NC - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. they are starting to break. The bloom is gone off the rose, they are starting to break, Sir. But we will be here until Labour nay, you need not worry about that, if necessATY we w:Ul be here for the rest of the winter. It does not bother me. I am quite satisfied to stay here, S:tr. }foybe the Minister of :Finance wHl pass around some pills so we can all relax, getting jumpy, irritable and Ct'anky, Sir. The weather is fine and they want to get outdoors in the sunsh:lne. Well Sir, I w:tll stay here unti.l doomsday myself. To quote from this art:tcle 1 Mr.

Cf'airmnn, "the Citizens' Rights Croup says 1.t has been g:t.ven n flat refosr:tl by the Provtnc:f.al Government to a request for operating funds e'1en thouRh the organizat:t.on ts receivtng referral of cases ft·om officials of t:he Department of Social Ser.v:Lces and Rehah:1.1.:ltat1.on, 11 The minister says, 11 I was asked, in passing, during a conversat:l.on w1.th two represemtatives of the C:!.Hzens' R:I.ghts Groups and I. did not say anything one way or the other. 1 ' Hr. Hickey said. MR.

HICKEY: That is the truth and the Citizens' Rights Group will tell you about it, that the informat:!.on they gave. the press was incorrect. Th0y mi.sinterpreted what I said, Is that all the hon. gentleman wants? Because if he wants some I have some more information here. MR. NEARY: Mr. Cha:lrman, I refuse to stand he:ce :tn this House and be threatened by an hon. m:1.nister. If the hon. minister has anything to put on the table of this House, Sir, let him put it on the table. Never m:1.nd his snide r.emarks, hi.s innuendoes, put it on the table_, Sir. MR. HICKEY: 1 .. et us get on to the next vote.

MR, NEARY: If the hon, mtni.ster provokes me, I will put something on the table. HR. HICKEY: Yes cod fish, like you did yesterday. !'1R.NEJ\!{Y_:_ T. w:J.11 put something on the table~ Mr. Chairman. If I were the hon, member I would not. provoke me too far. MR. HICKEY: Nn, I will.,,

June 22, 1972 Tape No. 939 NC MR, NEARY: Here is what Mr. Hickey said, according to this, .. MR. HICKEY: Point of Order, what is it the hon. gentle.man has? I challenge him, whatever he has, lay it on the table now. In due course, before those estimates are through, I will lay on the table of the House what I have. MR. NEARY: Is that a Point of Order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRM&~: The hon.member for Bell Island may continue with his debate. 2 MR. NEARY: Anyway, Mr. Chairman, here is what another quote from this art.icle says. 11 Mr. HJckey supplied the r,roup with a letter of recommendat1on to the Federal Canada Assistance," that is not the

part I wanted to read, Sir, 11 Hr. Hickey said h@ would like to help but there were no funds available, Mr .. Evans or Mrs.

Evans or whoever was dealing with it, said he approved of our organization and would like to help but there are no funds available." So I merely mentione.d in passing last evening, Sir 1 that I have a very high regard for this group, this Citizens'Rights Group and I also have a high regard for the Tenants 1 Rights Association, Si.r. 1 and I forgot to mention in my remarks yestet"day evenin?, and this afternoon, when I was on the subject of housing, that I would like to set: legislation brought into this House protecting tenants' rights. I think we should do it in this session.

There are some interesting items in today- 1 s ''Evening Telegram~t I do not have it here with me but I would recommend that hon. members read it and just see how the poor people in this province are be1.ng treated by some of the landlords, especially here in St. John's. Now, Mr. Chairman, I do not think that there are any other points that T. want to comment on at this time 0 I will wait until I get down to the subheads. I do want to know the name of the executive assistant and what his salary is. I will sit down in my own time, Mr. Chairman, The hon. member for St.

John's East is anxious to get on with the estimates and 2&87

June 22, 1972 Tape 91i0 (a.(te.rnoon) PK - 1 HR. NEARY: So am 11 so let us go. MR. lUCKIW: Hr. Chairman, MR. CHAIRMAN: The Hin:lster of Social and Commun:lty Development. HON. A. SENIOR: (MINISTER OF SOCIAL AND COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT): Mr.

Chairman, just for a brief minute, if I may, there are a couple of points that I would like to speak on. (J.) The matter that was raised by the honourable member for Bell Island earl:.i.er this afternoon concerning the new citizens' home 1n Grand Falls and saying th.at I had made ;.\ certain statement which was car.r1ed by radio station CJON :ln Grand Falls. l checked with the radio stationb They have carried no such statement and this :ls a complete misrepresentation of the fact.

The honourable member for Hell Island is del:i.berately trying to mislead this House and al.so trying to mislead the public by say:1.ng that I have made statements in the press wh:tch I have not made and have no J.ntention of making. The other point that I would like to speak on br:I.efly is a matter wh:l.ch is related to our department and which has been referred to briefly th.is afternoon and that is a :.:ipecial rnake ... work programmes to benefit people who are out of work. This has been expounded as a gr.eat L:tberal philosophy.

I would like to tell the honourable gentleman for Bell Island a little story in connection with the latest special works programme that was carried out :l.n Newfoundland, whi.ch is the Federal-Provine:{ al Employment Loans Programme. On November 30, 1971 1 the Federal Min:lster of Finance, Mr. Benson, wrote to the former Premier of this province advising him that $7.5 million would be available to this province under the Federal­ Provincial Loans Programme. He asked the former Premie.t .if in fact the Provi.nce of Newfoundland would want to partic:f.pate in this programme. It is very significant, Mr.

Cha:lrman, that it was not unti.1 Jant.t,:'.lry 12, 1972 1 that the Premier replied to Mr. Benson 1 informing 2!Hl8

June 22, 1972 Tape 940 (afternoon) PK - 2 MR. SENIOR: him that the province would Like to partid.pate in his programme, almost a month and a-half later. The deadline for submitting applicatLms was January 31, 1972. The Progressive Conservative Party took over the government of this province around January 18 or January 20, which left us aprroximately ten days to take advantage of this programme.

The point I am trying to make, Sir, is that 1f in fact the former Liberal Government were so anxious to put Newfoundlanders to work, they certainly have not demonstrated it hy their handl:lng of the Federal-Provincial Employment Loans Programme, because here we had $7.5 million availahle to this provlnce, to put our people to work, and they just sat on :Lt for a month and a-half leaving us with ten days in order to submit application, Mr, Chairman, to revtew the list of si.lly projects to include. into this programme is absolutely lud:f.crous.

They had the gall and the nerve during the election campaign to come out and make provincial issues out of some of the projects that were approvl1d, when we had such a short time. Mr. Chairman, we were in office at least two or three days, at least that long, Sir, before we even found out about the programme. No, it took us that long just to find our offices and get our coats off and unpack our briefcases. These people are trying to tell us that they had the interest of the unemployed peoµle of Newfoundland at heart, that they want to get our people off of welfare.

Sir, I cannot beli.eve that and it was not certainly demonstrated by the:i.r handling of this programme, They have done nothing but cr:1.ticize our handling of this progrannne, when all they did, Sir, was sit on it and d:i.d absolutely nothing about it. MR, HICKEY: this? Would the honourable member like to say something on MR. NEARY: I could not let that statement go unchallenged, Sir, ~ecause it is not true. It is not true. The honourable - 2!189

June J.;l; 1972 Tape 9liO (afternoon) PK - 3 MR. SENIOR: Mr. Chai.rman, on a point of order, I can table 111 fact" what I just gave in this honourable House. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the minister can table all the facts he wants to but I can tell the hono.urable minister right now that the honourable Premier grabbed that $7 .5 million so fast that the honourable Mr. Benson did not know what struck him, Sir, when we left office we had been arranging programmes and projects to take advantage of this $7 .5 million. We had already taken advantage of one $7.5 million the year before. The minister should know that.

June 22, 1972, Tape 9l•l, Page 1 --- apb So we were dealinf' w:f.th the ll!Jltter, we had the situat:I.on well :I.n hand, Sir... You know , Mr. Chairman, the f:trst pro.iec.t that was announced; P.s soo-~ as the IT'inister got Jn office, he could not wait but rushed into the television stations, into the microphones and into the news offices and announced $150,000 for a golf course in Grand Falls. SOME HON , ?-!EMBERS : Ah: r<R. NEARY: I would not mind too badly, Sir, I would not mind too badly, but it was privately owned.

Not a putt, no welfare recipients in there, Sir, rilayinp. p,olf, I guarantee Your Honour that. No low income or middle income or welfare recipients in there playinp, golf. l")<. SENIOR: ____ _ No, they are workin~ on the golf course. ~,fP. NF.ARY'. ----···-·-···· For that the honourable min;i.ster should p:et a membership card for life, MR. SENIOR:._ I have one, ~. NEARY: There you go. Mr. Chairman, there it is. ~fR, SENIOR:.. Want me to see what I can do? NR. NEARY: I :fust wanted to correct that statement for the record, Mr. Chairman, because it is not true, 1;1R_. __ A., .. snno_R_,_.

Better correct the first one you made too. t"R • NEARY: The first one I made? I said that the minister was alleged to have made certain statements MR. SENIOR: That was not said • . -------------·- !~L NEARY__:_ In Central Newfoundland, at least they were attributed to him. om. SENIOR_: That is not what was said. ?fR • NF.ARY : That is what I said.

I did not accuse the honourable ···--------- minlster and I am galcl that the honourable. minister stra:I.ghtened it out, I was glad to hear the Minister of Social Serv:I.ces announce to the people of Grand Fa.lls that they are going to get their senior citizens 1 home. l'J..:...!LI!cK_E_Y_- (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Chairman, there was a rumour out there l:ist week 2991

June 22, 1972, Tape 9L, l, l?age 2 -- apb that 1 the.y were not going to get it. A rumour? }IR._ NEARY, There was a rumour that they were not goinp: to get it. I rem:i.nded the hon. me.mhL~r i