Manitoba Hansard — 6 June 1996 (Sitting 46C, 36th Legislature, 2nd Session)

36-2-46c

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVI No. 46C - 9 a.m., Thursday, June 6, 1996

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Afl"'iliation Name Constituency Pai:cy ASHTON, Steve Thompson N.D.P. BARRETI, Becky Wellington N.D.P. CERILLI, Marianne Radisson N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave Kildonan N.D.P. CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose P.C. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. Seine River P.C. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Rob lin-Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary Concordia N.D.P. DOWNEY, James, Hon. Arthur-Virden P.C. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Steinbach P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. ENNS, Harry, Hon. Lakeside P.C. ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charles wood P.C.

EVANS, Clif Interlake N.D.P. - EVANS, Leonard S. Brandon East N.D.P. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo P.C. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield P.C. FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley N.D.P. GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface Lib. GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa P.C. HELWER, Edward Gimli P.C. HICKES, George Point Douglas N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. KOWALSKI, Gary The Maples Lib. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar The Pas N.D.P. LAURENDEAU, Marcel St. Norbert P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns N.D.P. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McALPINE, Gerry Sturgeon Creek P.C. McCRAE, James, Hon.

Brandon West P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane Osborne N.D.P. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. Assiniboia P.C. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn St. James N.D.P. - MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East P.C. . NEWMAN, David Riel P.C. PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Portage Ia Prairie P.C. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. PITURA, Frank Morris P.C. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. Lac du Bonnet P.C. RADCLIFFE, Mike River Heights P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack, Hon. Niakwa P.C. RENDER, Shirley St. Vital P.C. ROBINSON, Eric Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Gladstone P.C. SALE, Tim Crescentwood N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Broadway N.D.P. STEFANSON, Eric, Hon.

Kirkfield Park P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan Dauphin N.D.P. SVEINSON, Ben La Verendrye P.C. TOEWS, Vic, Hon. Rossmere P.C. TWEED, Mervin Turtle Mountain P.C. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River N.D.P.

3317 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, June 6,1996 The House met at 9 a.m. ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CULTURE, HERITAGE AND CITIZENSHIP Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 254, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. When the committee last considered the department's Estimates, we were on line 5.(

b) Multicultural Grants Advisory Council $284,500, on page 32 of the main Estimates book. Shall this item pass? Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): My colleague for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes) was hoping to be here, but he felt he may not be able to be present, so he has asked me to pass the line. Mr. Chairperson: The item is accordingly passed. Resolution 14.5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $438,600 for Multiculturalism for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1997. Item 14.6 Expenditures Related to Capital - Grant Assistance (

a) Cultural Organizations $3,263,000-pass. 14.6.(

b) Heritage Buildings $360,000. Ms. McGifford: I did have a question about the Heritage Buildings and what I wanted to ask the minister is this particular line then grants monies for the restoration of heritage buildings? Bon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): We do have some funds where we do make grants to heritage buildings across the provtnce. There is an application process whereby owners of heritage buildings can make application and have it reviewed by the staff. They will make recommendations of the ones that meet the criteria and the ones that we are able to fund.

We are not able to see to all of the requests that are out there. The department worked very closely with the heritage building folks out in the community to evaluate, first of all, the building to see if it meets the criteria and to work with the proponents to see that what they want to do is in line with our programs. So I think our ability is usually such that we can deal with perhaps half to three-quarters of the requests that come forward each year. Ms. McGifford: Is there a list of heritage buildings and the communities in which the buildings are located, which in the past year received grants?

If there is such a list, I would like to have a copy of it. I am also interested in the criteria for qualification. Mr. Gilleshammer: Probably two sources of information that would be good is the application form that is used by those people entrusted and also the regulations which are part of the act which govern us that lay out the criteria. We can certainly provide the member with the ones that were accepted last year, and we are just in the process of looking at those applications now for '96-97.

I might say that some of the needs are also addressed through the Heritage Grants committee as well who also can provide some funding. I am told that the ones that we fund are listed in the regulations. So that information is publicly available. Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.6.(

b) Heritage Buildings $360,000-pass; (

c) Community Places Program $2,600,000. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I see that there has been quite a dramatic decrease in the Community Places Program. It looks like $900,000. My understanding is that Community Places money is used to fund projects like community centres or something within a conununity centre. Is that correct, and has that money also been used to do work within child care centres? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes.

33 18 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 1996 Ms. McGifford: So what does the minister think the decrease of nearly a million dollars, what diff erence is that going to make to the program? I think I am correct in my understanding that it has been as high as $1 0 millio n. Mr. Gilleshammer: When the program was first introduced by the government of the day in the late '80s, I think it was '86 or '87, there was I believe $1 0 mill ion in the program. 1bis program certainly has been reduced over the years on the basis that many of the needs out in the community have been satisfied, certainly not all of them.

We have just recently closed off the applications for '96-97, and I think there were upwards of 400 applications, and the staff is currently out in the community reviewing those at the present time. But the program is almost 10 years old now, and, as I indicate, many of the needs out there have been satisfied. There are also other programs that have come into being over the last number of years that address some of the other issues and areas that are out there. I know there is a sports fac ility program that the Minister of Sport (Mr. Ernst) has been responsible fo r that deals with some of the needs.

There is also some fe deral programming, but the member is correct that the amount of money in this line was around $10 mill ion, I believe, in 1986-87 and it is somewhat less now. Ms. McGiff ord: Is there an attempt to spread the money throughout the province, the grant money? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, the fo lks that work in this area work with our regional offices throughout, I think it is, the seven regions of the province to evaluate and look at the needs in all areas. Ms. McGifford: Is a portion then of the money assigned to the regions of the province or is it decided on the basis of application?

Could I have some details, please, as to how it works? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, the staff in the Community Places offices go out and evaluate each and every application that comes in using the regional staff. They like to look at all the projects and see what comm unity funding is available and whether the project meets the criteria. They look at whether the proponents funding is in place. Sometimes there are projects that come fo rward and they are in the very early stages, and if it is a major project the proponent probably needs some time to raise their portion of the money.

It is a matching program whereby the community is expected to match either with dollars or services in kind what the grant from the Com munity Places Program is. So that round of activity is just starting. The Community Places central office people are around the province now meeting with regional people in the various areas to look at programs and to bring fo rward some recommen dations. Just one other thing, historically there has always been more demand than government has been able to satisfy in terms of what people want out there.

Sometimes there are also projects that are not eligible and they have to be screened out. * (0910 ) I mig ht add that one of the staff people attached to Community Places is sort of a quasi-engineer architect who has been of great assistance to communities in deciding whether what they want to do is appropriate and whether there is a better way to do it, so there is a lot of dialogue that goes on. Ms. McGifford: It seems to me that the matching grants policy might be easier fo r some comm unities than it would be for others.

It also disturbs me to see the decrease in funds because I fe ar that child care centres will suff er, and I think that under this government's policies child care centres are already suff ering enough. I wanted to ask the minister if Community Places money is ever used by schools to, let us say, create play structures or structures on the property that are not directly related to the school building. Mr.

Gilleshammer: I just want to take some issue with the member's comm ents about child care centres, because I did have a little bit of experience work ing with the child care community in the earlier portion of my career. I know that when we came to government in 1988 the daycare line I believe was $25 millio n, and I know some three or fo ur years later that daycare line was around $50 mil lion. My figures are a little rough, but that is pretty much a 1 00 percent increase in the funding to the daycares of - -

June 6, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 331 9 Manitoba. We sometimes like to compare ourselves with other provinces. Our sister province of Saskatchewan, which has many similarities to Manitoba in both the rural and urban base, similar in population, and I know at that time, and it maybe has changed either upward or downward, the daycare line there was $13 million. So I think Manitobans who either work in that industry or depend on that service have been reasonably well served by this government. So I do take exception to the member's comments about daycare.

I think also historically, both in the Community Places Program and the Community Services Council program, daycares have been major, major benefactors of the grant funding that comes out of those two programs. I would urge the member to perhaps do a little bit more research on that and take a look at the historical numbers in terms of daycares and might also look at the number of spaces that have been created over the last number of years. I think we went through a period there of the earlier '90s where there was an additional 3,0 00 spaces created.

Given the resources that have been put into the program by the government and through the grants program of Community Services Council and through the Community Places, that particular segment of our society has been pretty much served. I think the member's question was about whether schools access funding. Directly, the answer is no. They depend on the Public Schools Finance Board fo r capital construction.

However, having said that, there are times when community groups have come fo rward and, because some schoolyards are more than simply a nine-to-five school yard or nine-to-four or whatever, community groups have come fo rward and said, we would like to sponsor things like playgrounds and play structures and sportsgrounds. Groups like Home and School and parent councils have partnered with perhaps service clubs and the Community Places Program to proceed to create these play structures and playgrounds on school property.

So the answer is, we do not do capital construction on buildings that are the responsibility of the Public Schools Finance Board, but we have partnered with community groups to use school property to do such things as playgrounds. Ms. McGiff ord: I am sure we could debate child care all day and this probably is not the right department to talk about it. I know that under the NDP the best child care program in Canada was developed in Manitoba, and I was involved in developing the standards at that time.

However, the real point that I wanted to make in my questions about Community Places with regard to child care centres was that it does not auger well fo r the creation of new child care centres or augmenting the fa cilities in child care centres that already exist. I wonder if it is possible for me to have a list of Community Places grants made in 19 95-19 96, and I wonder if the minister is satisfied that there has been as equitable a distribution of those funds across the province as is possible, that he fe els content with it. Mr.

Gilleshammer: Well, I agree that there is probably a better place to debate the daycare situation than this department, and I do acknowledge that legislation that was put into eff ect by the NDP government highly regulated daycares and that set certain standards, and I am pleased that that program has been enhanced with tremendous additional funding resources since the NDP government was thrown out of office in 19 88. The listing of the grants fo r Community Places in 1995 -96, we have sent a copy of that to the NDP caucus on one occasion. We have sent it to the previous member fo r Dauphin, Mr.

Plohrnan, and if it is not available at the NDP caucus we could provide another copy of that fo r the member. The last part of the question, the staff work very hard to see that the appropriate decisions are made regarding projects. As I have indicated, there is always much, much more demand than we have resources fo r, and every attempt has been made to work with community groups to provide whatever assistance is possible through this program to help people develop their communities. Ms. McGitTord: Actually, the minister raises another question in my mind, and that is, if Mr.

Ploh.'llan had a list fo r 1995-96 and yet he left government in 1995 and was not here after April 25, does that mean that all the money fo r '95-96 had been allocated right at the beginning of 1995?

3320 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 19 96 Mr. Gilleshammer: No, it means when people ask for that information we provide it, and I indicated we would provide the information for the member if it was not available at her caucus room. We can certainly provide that because I know we prepared something for them. Ms. McGifford: But the question that comes from that for me is, is the money then allocated at several times throughout the year or are there competitions or is it ad hoc, as an application comes in and until all the money is gone, or what is the process? I am interested in that. *

(0920) Mr. Gilleshammer: Over the last number of years we have followed two processes. There was a time when we had a spring and fall intake and award. The last two or three years we have indicated on our application that there would be one deadline and, because the program is smaller now, we have attempted to make those decisions for what we call the construction season. We are well aware that many of these projects, it is desirable if they go forward during what is called construction season.

So I think last year we made one award towards the end of June, early July, and we are going to attempt to do that again this year. Ms. McGi fford: When the minister says one award, I understand him to mean a batch of awards to several different- Mr. Gilleshammer: On the application for Community Places we indicate there is a deadline for applications, and that deadline has now passed.

I do not see it, but I think it was sometime in May-May 17-and as soon as the staff are able to get out and work with the groups and look at the projects they will be coming forward with recommendations, and I would hope that we would make those decisions sometime this month so that we can hit construction season. Ms. McGifford: So then, I understand the minister to have said that awards are granted twice yearly, in June and-I am interested then, when would the other set of grants be made, and is there a different deadline? I am asking this actually from a constituency point of view. Mr.

Gilleshammer: Let me clarify. There was a time in previous years where we had two intakes and two awards, a spring and a fall. This year we are going to have one intake and one award period, so that we have indicated that the deadline was May 1 7 for the applic ation deadlines, and we will be making our decisions hopefully before the end of June and comm unicating with all the applicants whether they are successful or unsuccessful. Ms.

McGifford: I wanted to ask the minister, and he may not want to or be in a position to answer this question, if he feels there is a commitment on the part of his government to continuing the Community Places Program. Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, we have a commitment to it, and we did continue it.

Budgets tend to be struck on a year-to-year basis. and if the member is asking me whether we are going to be sitting here governing this province in the year 20 10 , whether there will still be a Community Places Program, I do not know, but in my meetings with groups like the Union of Manitoba Municipalities and the MAUM group, recreational groups, and it really comes up a lot at our recreation conference, it has been a popular program to do playgrounds, hockey rinks, baseball fields, play structures across the province.

I guess. as we look at the priorities of government, we will do our very best to continue the program, but, as the member is well aware, the federal government is reducing the amount of transfer payments to Manitoba by $220 million. We have always said our priorities in government are health and family services, education services to people. Having said that, we have been very pleased to be able to maintain a very, very strong program within Culture, Heritage and Citizenship on so many fronts.

I read articles in the newspaper and talk to individuals who have been at national meetings where other levels of government, other provincial governments are very much devastating culture, heritage programs, and I think that Manitobans have been pleased that while we certainly are spending less money in this department than a few years ago, we have been able to basically maintain our prograrnnung. I know that the member indicated to me in Question Period that she had read this wonderful

article from The - -

June 6, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3321 Globe and Mail about maintaining programs. I also saw an

article in a very recent edition of Maclean's magazine, which talked about, I think I have it here with me, and I might be able to share it with the member later, the decrease in funding for the arts in many areas of Canada. Basically, we have a pretty happy client group out there in that we have shown, I think, a pretty balanced app roach in terms of the amount of funding that we provide. I might just say that our intention as a department is certainly to go ahead with the request to continue the Community Places Program on into the future.

Given the support that we have had from other levels of government, it continues to be a program where we can partner with municipalities and community groups to do some good work out there. Ms. McGifford: I am pleased to hear that there is at least a short-term commitment to the Community Places Program, and I am very proud of my party for having initiated the Community Places Program. I think it makes clearly valuable contributions to Manitoba and recognizes the holistic model that providing facilities for people to play hockey or curling as well as daycares, play structures.

It is really a part of the whole community. I have no more questions on this line. Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.6. Expenditures Related to Capital - Grant Assistance (

c) Community Places Program $2,600,000-pass. Resolution 14.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $6,223,000 for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, Expenditures Related to Capital -Grant Assistance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day ofMarch, 1997. What is the will of the committee? We have items 14.1, 14.2 and 14.3 that have yet to be completed. What is the will of the committee? Do you have any particular

section that you wish to deal with? Ms. McGifford: I would like to start with 14.1 if that agrees with the minister but, before that, I wonder if I could ask a couple of questions about one of the acts for which the minister is responsible? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes. Ms. McGifford: I wanted to ask the minister about The Freedom of Information Act. I would like to ask him when it was last reviewed and how often it is reviewed. Mr.

Gilleshammer: Well, it is being reviewed right now, and we have indicated to the public of Manitoba by a press conference I did a few weeks ago that we are entering into a consultation period to replace The Freedom of Information Act with a unitary act that deals both with freedom of information and privacy. In fact, I spent a good part of the previous hour from eight o'clock to nine o'clock this morning signing letters going out to community groups indicating our consultation process and urging them to become involved.

The reason we are doing this is that there are areas of the current legislation that was passed in 1985 that the department feels we need to change. There was some consul tation in 1993-94 where I think four or five individuals from the community presented. We have indicated, I think, during the month of May that we will be bringing in legislation next spring for a unitary act dealing both with freedom of information and privacy. We are looking at acts that have been proclaimed in Alberta and British Columbia in 1995, which, I guess, are the state of the art in terms of what governments are doing in Canada. *

(0930) The province, of course, at the present time does not have that privacy legislation, and we feel these two issues, these two areas, can be combined in a unitary act. I would think that, while our consultation period has started now and will continue into the fall, we have every expectation that in about 10 or 11 months we will be able to introduce for first reading a new act within the Legislature of Manitoba. Mr. Chairperson: Before I recognize the honourable member for Osborne, I just want to verify for the committee we are on 14. l(

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $420,700. Ms. McGifford: Mr. Chair, I want to thank the minister for bringing up the discussion paper Access to Information and Privacy Protection because I did want to ask a couple of questions about that. The questions I did want to ask first were about The Freedom of Information

3322 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 1996 Act, and I do understand having read the discussion paper what the plans are. I want to quote from a letter that was copied to me and sent to the minister from a gentleman named Rod Lauder, in which he says: I was one of a number of witnesses at the last meeting of the committee on June 22, 1993, that being the standing committee. I recall being frustrated at that time that

Section 56 of the act had essentially been ignored. That

section states: "Within 3 years after the coming into force of this section, such committee of the assembly as the assembly may designate or establish for the purpose shall undertake a comprehensive review of the operation of this Act and shall, within 1 year after the review is undertaken or within such further time as the assembly may allow, submit to the assembly a report on the operation of this Act, including any amendments to the Act which the committee recommends." The act was assented to July 11, 1985, and came into force September 30, 1988.

One might argue that the letter of the clause has not been broken, but the intent or spirit certainly has. He goes on to say: Encouraged that the act was receiving the attention it deserved, I trusted that the process outlined by Mrs. Mitchelson, tl1e minister responsible in 1993, would be followed. According to Mrs. Mitchelson, the staff responsible for the act were to write a report as a result of the committee hearings by December 30, 1993. The committee was to reconvene, consider the report, and, if desired, recommend amendments to the legislation.

The staff in public archives who were responsible for the act submitted their report before December 30, 1993. Sadly, here we are two years later and the committee has yet to reconvene. I am understanding the minister to say that the committee has reconvened, but I am interested in the report. Was a report written and did the committee receive the report? Did it consider any amendments? Is the whole thing now going to be abandoned now that the minister is proposing a new way of dealing with these issues? Mr. Gilleshammer: I recall the letter from Mr.

Lauder, and I have met with him within the last number of months to discuss the direction we are going. What has happened, I think, is that events have overtaken the process that was embarked upon at that time with the more pressing need to have privacy legislation. We have had considerable discussion within the department with senior staff and others about the act, whether you take

an act that was passed in 1985 and try and update it and amend it or whether you come in with a new act because the circumstances have changed dramatically. I think The FOI Act has served us reasonably well as the first step towards granting access, but, as I say, the events that have overtaken us is the tremendous importance of the pnvacy Issues.

As we looked at our own act and discussed whether to try and amend it and make it more current was the best way to go or whether we come in with a completely new act, the decision and the advice from staff was certainly to go the other direction and to bring in a brand new piece of legislation that would certainly update what governments want to do in terms of freedom of information and, at the same time, address a much more pressing need to have that privacy legislation.

So we have indicated to Manitobans and anyone interested that we are entering into a new process whereby we \\<ill go through hearings and enter into dialogue with any Manitobans. We are sort of targeting our paper to groups we think will be interested in making a presentation on the issue and sharing with them all the work that has been done. It is encompassed in the document which we have given to the public and to groups. We think we are embarking on a process which is much better than amending and tinkering

an act that no longer serves our needs, but bringing in a new statute that will cover both sides of the coin in terms of freedom of information and privacy. We are prepared to hear from any group or individual within the province who may want to have some input into that process. Ms. McG ifford: I am certainly not cheering for the 1985 act, and I certainly respect the judgment of staff who would be much more familiar with its workings than I would be and with its shortcomings, obviously, too. My concern is with the situation that Mr.

Lauder outlined, and that is that a process that was agreed to apparently was not followed. That is my concern here. Having said that, I wonder if I could ask the minister a couple of questions about the access to information and privacy protection and the process for public - -

June 6, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3323 consultation. I read that we wish to receive your view s, proposals and ideas. If you wish to meet with us directly, please write or call us to set up a time, blah, blah, blah, and then it goes on to say, written comments may be submitted up to October 15, 1996. I am interested in whether there will be public hearin gs throughout the province. Will people be going to vario us parts of Manitoba in order to give a variety of Manitobans, northern, rural, the opportunity to appear publicly and make public presentation? *

(0940) Mr. Gilleshammer: We are attempting to, at this stage, get that information distributed as widely as possible. If there are requests for meetings, we are going to respond to that. I think the member will recognize that this perhaps is not going to draw as widespread attention as some of the other hearings that we have. I know that I partic ipated in the rural development and agricultural hearings across the province that went to 27 different communities.

We want to, at this point in time, make the information available to anybody and everybody and, if we have a tremendous amount of interest coming from one region of the provin ce, we will send staff out there to respond in whatever way is appropriate to be sure that those people are heard.

Of course, what we are also going to do, and it is indicated, is, after we have gathered this information from all of these people, we are going to put out another document called: What You Have Told Us, and again allow people to respond to the information that is compiled in that document, which we hope will be ready in the late fall, early winter, and then, from there, draft the legislation. Of course, in Manit oba, there always will be public hearings on the legislation after second reading.

We are going into what we called a targeted consultation process, and we have tried to identifY as many groups as we possibly can. We are sending the information out to a number of education-related organizations, other levels of government, professional groups, service organizatio ns, rights organizations, information management groups, the media, and we are trying to blitz as many of these groups as possible with the basic information so that there is an understanding of what it is we are trying to do here.

Then, when we have compiled this from our targeted consultations either, through meetings or through writte n submissions, as I indicated earlier, we are going to come up with a document called, What You Have Told Us, and again enter into discussions with any of these groups based on that and, hopefully, be able to share draft legi slation with them in the spring before it is tabled in the Legislature, and then debate it here.

So we are tryin g to make our process as inclusive as possible so that Man itobans will have an opportunity to give us their thoughts and information on what we think is going to be, ultimately, a good piece oflegislation. As I have indicated, we have looked at legislation from other jurisdictions. Not all jurisdictions have moved in the area of privacy at this time, but the two most recent ones that are somewhat similar are in British Columbia and Alberta.

I think we want to make the principles of that legislation available as well so people will understand what direction we are going and what, ultimately, is going to be the outcome of this consultatio n process. Ms. McGifford: I certainly appreciate the complexity of the matter as far as public input and understand that it is not necessarily everybody who would be interested i n making presentation, or everybody who would have the understanding that would be necessary to make a presentat ion.

I am sure, too, there is a need for the legi slation, and I respect that the minister has cited several other provinces who have recognized this need and gone ahead and drafted the legislation. But it seems to me the minister is saying two different things, that there is dichotomy here, because on the one hand he said he wanted to make the information availabl e to everyone and everybody and then talked about targeted groups. So there is a difference between everybody and targeted groups. So I am just pointing that out. I have no more questions. Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.1.(b)(

l) Salaries and Employee Benefits $420, 700-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $74,200-pass. 14 .I. (

c) Financial and Administrative Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,231,300-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $275,400-pass.

3324 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 1996 14.l.(

d) Manitoba Film Classification Board

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $108,000. Ms. McGifford: In reviewing last year's Estimates book and comparing it to this year's Estimates book, I notice that last year's subappropriation 14 .I. (

d) was Human Resources Services and its objectives were, quote, to enhance- the department's overall ability to deliver programs through eff ective utilization of its human resources to ensure administration of Civil Service policy regarding employee benefits, documentation and payroll. I wanted to ask the minister what has happened to Human Resources Services. Mr. Gilleshammer: Just to clarifY, we are not talking about the Manitoba Film Cla ssification Board. I thought, Mr. Chairman, that was what you were referring to there. Mr. Chairperson: Manitoba Film Classification Board

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $108,000. Mr. Gilleshammer: That is not what you are asking about. Ms. McGifford: What I was saying is in last year, Mr. Chairman, this subappropriation was not the Manitoba Film Classification Board but was Human Resources Services, and I did not see Human Resources Services anywhere else. I wonder what is-have we abandoned it, or what has happened? Mr. Gilleshammer: I thank you for that clarification.

What has happened within government is a number of departments have moved towards sharing Human Resources personnel, and in our particular case we share Human Resources staff with the Department of Justice, so that the Human Resources staff is contained within the Estimates of the Department of Justice. Some of the costs that reflect back to our department are contained in the appropriation 1.(

c) Financial and Administrative Services. I might say that, again, this is an attempt by government to use scarce resources as prudently as possible and, at the present time, we are adjusting to sharing even resources staff wit h another line department. Ms. McGifford: I thank the minister for that clarific ation.

I remember last year, when we were discussing this line, the minister told me that 6 7 percent of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, 60 percent of the employees were women and that 6 percent were visible minorities, but the department had a target, I believe, of 10 percent as far as aboriginal employees, and I wondered how the target was coming along. Mr. Gilleshammer: I guess I would point out that the affmnative action targets are government-wide targets and not specific to one department. They are government wide targets.

We continue to work towards that target and as the member recalls, in some areas we exceed the target and in other areas, we have, you know, more work to do. I know that the member will appreciate that these are targets and you have to take into consideration all of the variables in terms of staffin g. I know that there are many, many very competent individuals who hold those positions at the present time, and we are able to work towards those targets as we have people who retire, people who move on to other occupations, people who transfer to other departments.

We are pleased with our ability to move towards those targets in a very proactive way. Ms. Me Gifford: I do appreciate the difficulties of filling targets. I know it is not always that simple, but I would like to ask how many aboriginal people work in Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told there are six individuals. Ms. McGifford: What percentage would that be of employees? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, we have just over 300 employees. Ms. McGifford: I was just going to say thank you. Mr. Gilleshammer: You are welcome. Ms.

McGifford: I would like to ask some questions on the Film Classi fication Board. I am under the impression that the Film Classification Board is exactly in the situation that it was in last year. At least, that is how it appears in the Estimates book. That is as far as budget and staff years are concerned, and that is not an compl aint. That is merely an observation. The minister - -

June 6, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3325 might remember that last year we did discuss the Film Classification Board quite intensively and I certainly appreciated his willingness to explore the matter. *

(0950) I know so many in the department like to read Hansard to have an understanding of what the issues are that are raised at Estimates, and I am sure that if they do not see it there, we will have staff pass it on to them. Mr. Chairperson: Item 14 .1. Administration and I noticed that there are 900 video retail outlets licensed. Finance (

d) Manitoba Film Classification Board

(1) Is that every video outlet in Manitoba? Salaries and Employee Benefits $108,000-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $188,300-pass. Mr. Gilleshammer: By law, they are required to be licensed. Ms. McGifford: It strikes me as strange. I am wondering if it is a rounded-off figure and, again, that would not be a complaint because last year there were 900 video retail outlets, and it is hard to believe that it is exactly the same number so I wonder if it is a rounded number. Mr. Gilleshammer: I am informed the actual figure on this particular date is 907. Ms. McGifford: Does the Film Classification Board prepare any monthly reports or other documents in regard to its work? Mr.

Gilleshammer: They have a reporting structure which enables them to indicate their activities up to senior staff within the department. Ms. McGiff ord: I wanted to make a comment, and that is that I have had a number of conversations with people from the Film Classification Board, both in regard to videos and films, because from time to time I get people phoning me compl aining about videos that their children have brought home and that sort of thing. I wanted to comment that I have always found my dealings to be very satisfactory, so I wanted to pass that along to the minister. Mr.

Gilleshammer: Well, we get so many compliments in this department for the good work that staff do but we are always prepared to accept another one, and I am sure that staff here at the table will be sure that your remarks will be passed on to not only the appointed members of the Film Classification Board but the three staff who work there. 14.2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (

a) Executive Administration

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $267,100. Ms. McGifford: Actually, I wanted to make a comment on 14.2. I note that there are considerable changes in Culture, Heritage and Recreation here in that there is an addi tion of three lines, Grants to Cultural Organizations, Manit oba Arts Council, and Heritage Grants Advisory Council. Is this because these departments were formerly funded directly by Lotteries and now the money is funnelled through Culture, Heritage and Citizenship? Mr.

Gilleshammer: Our Estimates book in the past was a little bit convoluted in that we attempted to show funding that came from Lotteries and funding that came from general revenues. I know that for years it completely bafll ed me but the staff understood it. We have now streamlined it, simply to show all of our expenditures without identifying the source of those funds. Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (

a) Executive Administration

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $267,100-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $71,100-pass. 14.2.(

b) Grants to Cultural Organizations. Ms. McGifford: The questions that I want to ask are grants related to cultural organizations-[interjection] Actuall y, I am having a hard time hearing myself thinking. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I would like to advise members outside the committee that we would like to maintain some decorum in Room 254 so that the committee can carry out their work.

3326 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 1996 Ms. McGiff ord: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I wanted to ask a couple of questions about the major agencies operating grants, and I wonder who the major agencies are. Mr. Gilleshammer: The agencies that we provide operating grants for under this line are ones which would include the Western Manitoba Centennial Auditorium, The Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation, the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature, the CCFM and the Winnipeg Art Gallery. Ms. McGifford: I want to ask if the minister has the right to appoint members to the boards of those agencies. Mr.

Gilleshammer: To some extent, yes. Ms. McGifford: Do the number of appointees differ from board to board? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes. Ms. McGifford: I want to ask the minister if it is possible for me to have-actually, I am going to retract that question. I want to ask the minister- Mr. Gilleshammer: Just for clarification, which question were you retracting? Ms. McGifford: The one I did not get- Mr. Gilleshammer: That is what I thought. Ms. McGifford: The one I did not ask-because I started to ask it.

I would like to ask the minister if it is possible for me to get a list of how much money is given from Culture and Heritage to each of these major agencies. Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I can indicate that to the member. The current year figures, the Western Manitoba Centennial Auditorium, it is-can I just round them off-$60,000; to the Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation, $2.1 million; to the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature, is $2.4; to CCFM, $297,000; and the Winnipeg Art Gallery, $1.9 million. Ms. McGifford: I wanted to also ask about deficit reduction.

Is deficit reduction money set aside to bail out agencies in trouble? Mr. Gilleshammer: We do have a deficit reduction line which enables us to work in partnership with some of the groups that are referenced in this area and also with community groups who come forward to be of assistance. So we do have a deficit reduction line that gives them that sort of assistance. Ms. McGifford: Can I ask who was helped last year, 1995-96? *

(1000) Mr. Gil leshammer: Yes, you can ask that. The Manitoba Association of Community Arts Councils Inc., the Royal Winnipeg Ballet and the West End Cultural Centre. Those three groups participated in the programs that are referenced in that line. Ms. McGiff ord: Hospitality Grants, I am not sure what they are. Mr. Gilleshammer: Hospitality Grants are sums of money that are requested by groups from around the province that often are sponsoring major conferences, as part of their conference would have some form of hospitality that they asked for some assistance on. Ms.

McGifford: Would the minister please give me some examples of groups that have requested and received these grants? Mr. Gilles hammer: Yes, I can indicate that there were five groups last year that accessed some funds from that line. The Association of Manitoba Museums, Brandon University, the Canadian Ethnic Studies Association, St. Boniface College and the Conseil jeunesse provincial incorporated. Ms. McGiffo rd: I have basically the same questions of Community Initiatives. What are they intended to do, and who has received monies through this line? Mr.

Gilleshammer: Yes, there is a line there that allows us to deal with community initiatives. Basically, they are initiatives that come up within the budget year. Some of the groups last year that accessed some funding were the Canadian Native Arts Foundation, the Folk Arts Council of Winnipeg, the Manitoba Agricultural - -

June 6, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3327 Muse um, the Westman Sun Fun Program run by the Brandon Sun and the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra. Ms. McGifford: Are there criteria fo r awarding these monies, or what is the process fo r obtaining? Mr. Gilleshammer: The criteria are such that the staff within the department usually bring fo rward an initiative that has not been budgeted fo r that we think has some merit, that we would like to assist with. I will give you an example.

In Winnipeg here, historically we have funded a s umm er camping experience that is sponsored by a group, and I think historically we have given something like $3 0, 000 or $3 5, 000. There is a very similar group that is in Westman that is headed by Brian Marshall, the editor of the Brandon Sun, which is called the Sun Fund, and one year when we did a press release, he phoned and said, listen, you do $35, 000 fo r Winnipeg kids, disadvantaged kids to send them to camp. We have this fund; we have never had any assistance.

We have a number of kids who want to go this year, and because our donations are a little slower, is there any way you can help us? So we were able to get $5, 000 out of this fund and donate to that very worthy cause. So the parameters are, I guess, reasonably broad. They are initiatives that come fo rward from individuals or groups and are vetted through the department, and if any of the managers within the department say, this is something that we would like to get involved with, here is an opportunity to perhaps work through the Community Initiatives to try and fund this.

There is often a number of layers that it goes through before it reaches me, and people attempt to present a case, say this is a good activity.

I am just trying to remember what the Canadian Native Arts Foundation was, but I believe it was a group that had contracted to have some native art commissioned in conjunction with another project and then fo und out they were not able to cover the costs of these Manitoba artists and approached the department to say, we have an outstanding bill here to some young native Manitoba artists who were commissioned, and because they did not have a contract, did not understand what the costs were going to be, and we were able to cover it out of that particular fund. Ms.

McGifford: I appreciate that the initiative comes from the community and that a staff member will create a relationship with the initiative or with the group, or whatever, and then bring it fo rward. How does someone in the community know where to take their idea? Is there anything public? It is a question of accessibility. Mr. Gilleshammer: It is a not a for malized process because, by fa r, the activities of the department are well known, but there are occasionally groups, whether in recreation or whether on the art side or a heritage group, that come fo rward with a good project.

Rather than saying no to some that obviously have merit, we are able, within the department, to address some of those sort of in-year issues that come up. It is, again, something that has been part of this department, I guess, fo r as long as any of these fine staff here can remember, you know, through the '80s and '90s to address in-year issues without saying, I am sorry, you will have to wait or go somewhere else. So it does give a little bit of flexibility within all of the divisions to address some of these needs. Ms.

McGifford: So then the community initiatives program, if I call it a program, is money that is built in order to respond to initiatives that come up, where applications have not been in at certain times or the project has just been a sudden idea and that sort of thing. Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, most of the hundreds and hundreds of groups that we deal with fa ll under one part of the department or another. There are always new issues and new ideas that come fo rward, and it allows us a little bit of flexibility to address some of th ose needs.

Again, sometimes all of that money is not spent, but it is there to allow us some flexibility to deal with emerging tssues . Ms. McGiff ord: Obviously, flexibility is important, but it is also, I suppose, money that could be-since the process is so inf ormal, it is really important to keep a keen eye on it. Mr. Gilleshammer: You can rest assured that we will do that. Mr. Chairperson: Item 14 .2.(

b) Grants to Cultural Organizations $7,3 1 6,900-pass.

33 28 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 1996 14 .2 .(

c) Manitoba Arts Council $6,767,300. Ms. McGifford: I do not have a question. I do have conunents. I had the pleasure of visiting with the Manitoba Arts Council, visiting the facility and meeting with the chair and with the director, and I was extremely impressed by the work they are doing. The facility is absolutely stunning, of course. I thoroughly enjoyed visiting with them. I am very happy with the publication they send out, and I just want to take this opportunity to congratulate them on their work. Mr. Gilleshammer: Again, you can be sure that your kind words will be passed on to Ms.

Christianson and the director and the staff at the Arts Council because we, too, are very pleased and proud of the work that they do for Manitoba. Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.2. (

c) Manitoba Arts Council $6,767,300-pass; (

d) Heritage Grants Advisory Council $578,200. *

(1010) Ms. McGifford: I understand that the Heritage Grants Advisory Council is an arm's-length funding agency, and I am wondering what the working definition of the term "heritage" is. Mr. Gilleshammer: We tend to use the traditional definition of"heritage," which encompasses things such as the awareness of heritage activities and events that are part of our province. We include very much conununity based groups that come forward representing the museum conununity or historical societies in groups.

This particular group always seeks to identifY initiatives which will preserve and enhance and educate at the same time. Ms. McGiff ord: So the key words are preserve, enhance and educate? Mr. Gilleshammer: Those were the key words that came to mind a few minutes ago. Ms. McGifford: I would like to ask some questions about the council, and I am wondering how appointments are made to the council. Mr.

Gilleshammer: The heritage conununity makes reconunendations to government of the people that have an interest in the history and heritage of our province, and then the minister responsible takes those names forward for government approval. Ms. McGifford: Does the current council reflect the cultural diversity and geographical areas of the province? Mr. Gilleshammer: I just maybe should clarifY which group we are talking about. We have the Manitoba Heritage Council and we also have what we call the Heritage Grants Advisory Council, and in both cases, the answer I indicated to you applies. Ms.

McGiff ord: I was talking about the Heritage Grants Advisory Council. I am interested in the number of grants requested as opposed to the number of grants received and, also, is there room for appeals? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, there is an appeal process. The appeal process is external to the council, so it is not the same people that are hearing the appeal that made the original decision. For 1995-96, there were 125 applications and 64 of those were approved. Ms. McGifford: Can I ask, please, how many appeals there were? Mr. Gill eshammer: We do not have that information here but I know we can get it.

I know that there were a couple because we had to set up an appeal board to hear them. I think there were many two, I am told maybe two or three. Ms. McGiff ord: I am interested not only in the number of appeals but whether the appeals were successful, so perhaps I could get both those pieces of information at the same time. Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I would indicate that the number of appeals are not many, two or three. I know of one ofthose that was successful and I am not sure of the others, but we can get you more information on that. Ms. McGifford: Do applicants understand that they have the right to appeal?

Is that apparent in the application? - -

June 6, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3329 Mr. Gilleshammer: It is contained both in the Mr. Gilleshammer: Absolutely. application and in the correspondence which announces the decision. Ms. Me Gifford: I am wondering if there is any kind of pattern in grant applicatio ns. Is it usually fo r the restoration of buildings or museums or what-I wonder if the minister could provide some inf ormation about what money is generally applied to do. That does not make- Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, certainly a lot of it is fo r heritage buildin gs.

Some of them are public buildings, some are privately owned, and the Heritage Grants people spend a lot of time in evaluating the type of project that is being applied fo r. Just some more detailed informat ion about the 19 95 grants application. I am told that there were 55 that were requested fo r conservation issues. Of those 55, 35 of them were approved. In the category of exhibitions, progr amm ing and equipment, there were 72 that were requested and 29 that were approved. In the area of publications, research and collections management, there were 77 requested and 33 that were approved.

So it spans a gamut from museums-and I know the Museum of Man and Nature and the university community often have applications in. There are also in rural Manitoba various councils and museums that make application for any of those particular categories. Ms. McGifford: I notice that the Grant Assistance line is also down by $1 00,000, and surely that will have an impact on the community.

It is roughly a 16 percent decrease in heritage grants and it seems to me that this does not augur well fo r the heritage community, but then again, that is a comment rather than a question, but perhaps the minister would like to respond . Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, I would respond in that there was $1 00,000 cash taken out that shows up there, but we added the ability to recoup that through the Lotteries distribution by having community-based groups do bingos to secure their funding . So in terms of the amount of dollars availab le, it is a similar amount. Ms.

McGifford: Actually, I think the member fo r Flin Flon wants to ask the minister a fe w questions, if that is agreeable. Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): I do not have a great number of questions to ask but a lot of this is- Mr. Chairperson: The honourable member for Flin Flon, please bring your mike fo rward there so that we can pick up. Thank you. * (1 020) Mr.

Jennissen: I have a letter from Greenstone Community Futures Developm ent Corporation dated October 11 , 19 95, and I am sure that some of the questions that are being asked in this letter may well have been addressed or answered since then, but I will just quote a fe w things from it: On October 10 , 19 95, I received this year's list of successful grant applicants that were submitted to the HGAC. Interestingly, North of 53 received only three grants out of92 grants. Even more interesting is the fa ct that not one northerner sits on this council. I would like the minister to comment on that.

I think things may have improved since then, but I am not sure. Mr. Gilleshammer: I can indicate to you who sits on the Heritage Grants Advisory Council. The chair is Philip Mailhot, Elaine Elliott, Jodie Eskritt, Donna Gurr, Zenon Hluszok, Brian McKillop, Sam Andrew, Mary Bole, Jodi Cassady, Joyce Coulson, Alex Krawec and Peter Priess.

What we have done with appointing members to this particular committee is basically ask the community to bring us names of people who would represent, and, in fa ct, some of it may be in legis lation, but we do have representation from the museum community, we do have representation from heritage groups and from the universities.

I will tell you, this is always a struggle, and, if the member has names of people whom he would like to put fo rward as potential candidates for the Heritage Grants Advisory Council, I would be very pleased to receive them because I know in so many of our groups where there is not any remuneration and where the community is very, very small in terms of the pool of people who want to serve, we are always looking for individuals who would be interested in serving on them.

3330 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 1996 As far as the HGAC funding by region, there again we have regional offices representing Eastman, Interlake, Central, Parkland, Norman and Westman, as well as Winnipeg. I would say the majority of our funding is done in Winnipeg because of the major museums here and some of the work that is done but in a way that is misleading too because I know some of the funding goes to university-based people who do their research either at Churchill or some of the projects that are in the North.

So without going through each and every project it is difficult to say, and because some of these people are spec ialists in terms of archaeologists who tend to be related to the university, their work can be done anywhere within the province. But again, if there are particular projects the member wants to ask about I can certainly pass them on to the department, and if there are members who are interested in heritage issues, we are always looking for additional people to help with these activities. Mr. Jennissen: I will look forward to suggesting some names then.

Another concern that has arisen, and again it comes from Greenstone, was that Dr. Philip Mailhot did send a letter to various people in the heritage community, and he wanted to update or improve the current guidelines I presume for how these grants are dispersed. But the letter from Dr. Mailhot is dated October 19 95, with no precise date, so I do not know when our people got this in Flin Flon or in other places, and Dr. Mailhot suggests, can you please provide us with your comments on the attached form and return to us by October 31, 19 95.

We felt that is not leaving us very much time to get our people organized and do something meaningful. By the time we get organized, it is much past this date. I know it is no reflection on the minister or his staff but ju st a comment to give us a little more lead time up north? Mr. Gilleshammer: I know I have met Dr. Mailhot who is with the St. Boniface Museum and formerly the chair of the Association of Manitoba Museums, and I know that he is very interested in getting feedback at any time, so if there is information on that form, or any other, I am sure that he would be happy to receive it.

If you want to leave it with myself or staff we will be sure that any information is brought to his attention. Again, I emphasize the gratitude I think government has towards people who assist in this area because it is a small pool, and they have their own institutions, their own interests and their own work to do and volunteer to assist with the heritage community. They are very receptive to new ideas and any information that you have that you would like passed on, we will be sure that Dr. Mailhot gets it. Mr.

Jennissen: With regard to the members appointed to the board in July 1995, once again, I do not want to belabour the point about not reflecting regions, but I do notice that there are three Winnipeg members and a Selkirk member, so the capital region is well represented. The one in Brandon, that is another fairly large town or city in Manitoba and Selkirk, but that group of people plus the other ones mentioned do not reflect central or northern Manitoba. I think that is a serious omission, and I bel ieve that we have to do something to address that soon. Mr.

Gilleshammer: Well, as I have indicated, if the member wants to submit some names, we would be pleased to have them participate. I know that I have attended the museum at Churchill and the one at The Pas, which was closed for a number of years but is now operating, and I know that we have used some of the expertise that is made available to us through those institutions to help us formulate policy within the department. By all means, if there are people who would like to be considered for any of these heritage boards, I would be pleased to receive them. Mr. Jennissen: As well, Mr.

Minister, we would hope that grants, as much as possible, the amounts of the grants, reflect the population of the regions because of the 92 grants of which I have information, I believe that was 19 95 -96, for a total of approximately $600,000. Only three grants did go north of 53 for, I think, under $40,000. We look at Steinbach receiving four grants, Dugald receiving five grants, and it gets our people somewhat upset because there seems to be a heavy bias in favour of the south, perhaps not a deliberate bias.

I notice that when $1 7,000 goes to northern Manitoba, that is approximately around 2.5 percent of the total . -

June 6, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3331 Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, as your honourable colleague indicated at the outset, this is an arm's-length group who volunteer their time to assist government and assist the province to make these decisions. We will pass your comments on to them and be sure that they are aware of your concerns. Mr. Jennissen: I thank the minister, and back to my honourable colleague from Osborne. Mr. Chairperson: Item 14.2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (

d) Heritage Grants Advisory Council $578,200-pass. 14.2.(e)ArtsBranch

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $471,700-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $131,200-pass;

(3) Grant Assistance $4,063,600. Ms. Me Gifford: I have sort of lost track. So we have moved on to Arts? Mr. Chairperson: Number 14.2.(

e) Arts Branch

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits;

(2) Other Expenditures;

(3) Grant Assistance $4,063,600. That is the line that we are on presently. Ms. McGifford: Yes, I have some questions. Last year, when we were discussing the Arts Branch, I spent most of my tim e talking about publishing. So I want to ask some diff erent questions. First of all, I wanted to make reference to the DeFehr Report, which we also talked about last year. As the minis ter knows, this is a Report of the Arts and Policy Review Committee of 1990.

Last year, I asked about the DeFehr report's recommendation that an art act be legislated, and the art act would recognize the complexity and maturity of the relationship between government and the arts community. There would be two basic aspects and purposes to the recommended act: (

a) The minister responsible for the act would be in a position to be an advocate on behalf of arts among other government departments and agencies, and, as well, it would provide the minister with an opportunity to present an annual report on the arts in Manitoba, which would seem to me to be of great benefit both within the Manito ba community and outside of the community. *

(1030) Art is important, I think, to several government departments. Many departments are helped and influenced by art. I am thinking of Education. Art and culture, of course, would be very important for Industry, Trade and Tourism, economic development. An art act would give the minister a golden opportunity to advocate for art and see that art fulfills its role in the province. He would also give artists the recognition and respect that they deserve, but some feel that they are being denied. Clearly, artists in our province are earning their keep.

I know that the minister agrees with me that art is very important to the economics of our province because he told me so last year-[inteijection] Well, we are in agreement. I want to ask the minister again. I know that he told me last year that 30 out of 40 of the DeFehr recommendations had been filled, but I want to ask him whether he does plan to introduce an art act. Of course, the reaso n I am bringing it up is because I think it would be very important, it would cost no money to do so. It would only add to artistic endeavour in the province and perhaps economic development.

Certainly, as I was saying a couple of minutes ago, to the way artists may perceive themselves to be appreciated or nonappreciated by the community. Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I again want to thank my honourable friend for her comments. Certainly, I have never felt that I needed to wait for

an act to advocate for the arts. I think the relationship between our government, our department and the arts community is an extremely positive one, recognize many of the comments the member made about the economic activity that occurs through the arts and through the work done by our department. We continue to work on initi atives that were part of the DeFehr report, and I am very pleased that we have been able to achieve as many of the recommendations as we have to date. I am very proud that we have been able to maintain our funding, not only for artists and publishers

3332 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 1996 but many of the performing arts within the province. We will continue to build on that positive relationship. I think the spirit of the review that was done is being matched and implemented, and we will continue to work towards as many of the recommendations as are achievable. Ms. McGifford: I am sure the minister does advocate for art and that he does not need

an act to do so because I also advocate for art and I do not have

an act either. The point with the act is that it would be a public and official acknowledgement of art and the artist. I think it is something that, from my calls in the community, from what I have heard, artists would value. It would help them to feel appreciated and respected. I am sure the minister knows, as I do, that many artists struggle from day to day and give up many of the luxuries in life in pursuit of their art, and this would be small compensation so it would seem to me. Mr. Gilleshammer: I am pleased that the member is such a supporter of the arts.

I know within my caucus, both the previous minister and I have done our missionary work, and we have so many colleagues who attend events now, many of them looking forward to the jazz festival, attending the ballet, going to the studios around the city and around the province. I know there is a wonderful community in southwestern Manitoba that has their art displayed all over the walls of the community, just a wonderful way of promoting artists and tourism and raising the profile of art within Manitoba.

I am very pleased that within our caucus, I think all of my colleagues try and attend as many art events as they can and get an appreciation for art in Manitoba. I know my honourable friend does the same within her caucus, and we always look forward to seeing her colleagues supporting these events and coming to different activities. I know a lot of them are busy and it is very difficult, but that is part of, I think, the awareness that we try and raise throughout the province. The issue of the act is one that is under review within the department and within governments across Canada.

At the present time, there is a federal act and I believe the Province of Quebec have put forward

an act of a sort, I am told. All other provinces have sort of pulled back and are reviewing whether that is the best way to deal with the promotion and the sustainability of the arts. Probably the document that is most important for the preservation of the arts is our budget document. Our budget in Manitoba is outstanding in so many ways. It is balanced; it has a plan to pay down the debt.

I was just thrilled that a former member, Jerry Storie, was praising the balanced budget and lecturing the current Leader of the national party and the provincial party that balanced budgets are not all bad and that all parties have to support them and get on \\ith the realities of the '90s. Our provincial budget has been very consistent in maintaining the support for publishing, for arts groups, for our professional performers and all of the granting done by the Manitoba Arts Council.

I think the reality of the arts in Manitoba is best served by the fact that we have been able to maintain that support within the current budget and hope to continue to be able to do that on into the future. Ms. McGifford: As a New Democrat I, of course, would never underestimate the importance of money and budgets, so I am pleased to see that the government has done very well in maintaining its support to the arts. I wanted to ask some questions about Grant Assistance in the Arts Branch.

Just to pick out a couple so we do not go through each and every one of the lines, I am not sure about what Arts Development Project Support is. I wonder if I could have some details, please. Mr. Gilleshammer: I can indicate to my honourable friend that the arts development project support is assis tance that is given to nonprofit, community-based organizations with individual art skills development or audience development projects and also remote art projects as a component of that.

It is designed to give grants to different groups throughout the province to help promote the arts, maybe best explained by giving a number of examples from across the province. I believe our budget line there is just over $200,000. This goes to support groups like Mosaic Massey in Brandon; the National Ukrainian Festival in Dauphin; the Brandon Folk Music and Art Society; the Summ er Theatre School Manitoba; the Winnipeg Music Competition Festival; the Tri-Lake Concert Association; the Manitoba Holiday Festival of the Arts , which I know is in Neepawa; and - -

June 6, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3333 just a whole variety of groups like the Highland Dancers Association that some of our members are familiar with. These are groups right across the province and come under this Arts Development program. * (1 040) Ms. McGifford: I believe the minister cited the figure 209.4 and it was actually-this line is 14 0. Perhaps he inadvertently looked at the wrong- Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, my staff are busy giving me so much information here of all these wonderful programs, and I know we do not want to miss any of them.

We can maybe clarifY that in some cases where the grants were made the previous year, we are trying to give you a picture of that and others are in reference to the current year. Ms. McGifford: I wanted to also ask about Arts and Crafts Marketing. Could I have some details about grant assist ance to Arts and Crafts Marketing? Mr.

Gilleshammer: Last year, in response to the community, we put out a publication for the first time which was intended to allow Manitoba artists and crafts people to indicate within this little booklet the product that they were producing and the location where their product could be accessed. We were I think partially successful in attracting the attention of artists and crafts people across the province.

Our idea was to help them market their product, help them to raise the awareness of what they were doing and make the booklet available along with other tourism promotion material that one might access at tourist booths and at border locations. It was not as successful as I had hoped it would be. There were people who missed the deadline even though we extended it, others who opted not to participate even though there was no cost to the individual. We are assessing that at the present time and perhaps we will make a renewed effort to do that at another time. Ms.

McGifford: Is the minister aware that the Crafts Guild of Manitoba, 18 3 Kennedy, is selling its property and its building, that it is, I guess the vernacular is belly up. Mr. Gilleshammer: I am not aware of their situation. Ms. McGifford: In other words, this group has never made any request for funding through grant assis tance. Mr. Gilleshammer: I am told that they have not. Ms. McGifford: Thank you. I had not understood that they had either. It just crossed my desk and I wondered about it.

I know that the minister has introduced Bill 71, The Manitoba Film and Sound Recording Development Corporation Act and that the purpose of this bill as I understand is to create an arm's-length agency and that this was done after undertaking extensive consultations with the community. I wonder if the minister could tell me when these consultations took place, tell me a little bit about the process, because I only heard about it after the whole thing was over. Mr.

Gilleshammer: Well, I can tell you that this is an issue that has been discussed within the community, probably for three or four years, as Manitoba Film and Sound as an industry is experiencing tremendous success and a certain amount of growth, and we have a funding relationship with the Cultural Industries Development Organization that has been there for a number of years.

The concern that has been expressed by many is that our relationship with that group was too informal in that our grant assistance to them was direct and that there was not a community-based or industry-based board in place to be part ofthe decision making and part of the accountability of the funding that went out in that direction. Many people within the industry, whether it is the film community or whether it is the sound community, have been asking that we put in place a more formalized structure to deal with the funding that government has given them on an annual basis.

In responding to that request from the community, we have looked at other legislation and we also had an individual do consultation with the groups that have been proposing this and brought back some recommendations of how we go about creating

an act. While this work has been going on for three or four years, the consultation process was basically done in the late winter and early spring of this year. We

3334 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 1996 have used that consultation document to draft the legislation and then shared it with a number of people in the community to see if that is in fact what they want and have recently presented the bill to the House and certainly look forward to the member's comments and support on that bill, because the community, it seems to me, has been asking for this and is pleased with the direction that we are going. Ms. McGifford: Could the minister tell me, please, who was the consultant? Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes, an individual by the name of Cam Mackie.

I think this is certainly the direction the industry wanted us to go. The recommendations and the document have been well received and, again, any Manitobans who want to have an opportunity to examine the bill and make their comments known will have that opportunity in the fall when second reading has been completed and we are in the conm1ittee stage. Ms. McGifford: Thank you. Will the Manitoba Film and Sound Recording Development Corporation then be similar to the Manitoba Arts Council as far as its way of granting or as far as its being a peer group? Could the minister comment, please? Mr.

Gilleshammer: There will be some similarities. - Ms. McGifford: Is Cam Mackie from a particular The Arts Council, of course, has a much broader mandate consulting firm? across the province. The film and sound industry is a more condensed industry, and I would hope that we will Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes. be able to build on the tremendous success that CIDO has enjoyed over the last few years. Our intention is to Ms. McGifford: Could the minister tell me the name of not detract from the work that the cultural industries have the firm, please? Mr. Gilleshammer: The firm is KPMG. Ms. McGifford: Thank you.

The minister told me basically the time frame in which the consultations took place and has told me the name of the consultant. I wonder where the consultations took place. Again, I am wondering whether they were throughout the province, basically in Winnipeg, were they public presentations, were there written presentations, a combination of both? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, it was a combination of many things. A lot of the film and sound industry is located in Winnipeg and we relied on recommendations from them about anyone who should be included within the consultation process.

There were some written recommendations I think sent to the consultant. There were also many meetings that were held and we, again, tried to be as inclusive as possible in getting the views of the public.

The department has also been working, as I indicated, for three or four years on this, trying to be aware of what was happening in other jurisdictions and trying to be as responsive to the film and sound industry within the province and I know personally have met with a number of people who are involved in this industry. been doing under the leadership of Carol Vivier and try to simply build on the work that they have done and put in place a board which ·will provide Lhat accountability.

I know in my meetings \\ith individuals involved with both film and sound, they have indicated that this is the direction that they want to go, and they arc asking that we put in place a board which will bring a variety of expertise to the table to manage this corporation. * (1 050) Ms. McGi fford: So the Manitoba Film and Sound Recording Development Corporation, will it replace CIDO? Mr. Gilleshammer: I guess it is not going to replace CIDO. It is going to allow CIDO to merge with this new board.

Again, we are very proud and very pleased with the work that CIDO has done, but it will be the board that manages the activities that CIDO currently is involved in. Ms. McGifford: Just one final comment, I was disturbed to fmd out about this whole process quite inadvertently when I saw an ad in the Sun one day for a sound recording officer and began to wonder about it and learnt about the whole process of the consultations and whatnot quite inadvertently. I found it particularly -

June 6, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3335 disturbing since I had a briefing session in the minister's office involving the minister, his special assistant, the deputy minister, the assistant deputy minister, director from Community Places, the head of the Arts Branch. In this briefing session nobody-and I know the head of the Arts Branch was present and she talked extensively and she had a written presentation-but no one mentioned the consultations which seem to me to be kind of an important part of what was happeni ng. (Mr. Mervin Tweed, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr.

Gilleshammer: I regret that the member is disturbed , but the first part of your comments was that there was an ad in the paper for a stafii> erson. That is normal business for CIOO, that there was somebody who left the employ of CIDO, and they follow the natural process. When they want to hire somebody, they put an ad in the paper and will I am sure go through the normal procedure of replacing the person who left. In the short time that we had with my staff in trying to bring the member up to speed, I am sure there are many things we were not able to cover.

I know I was just there for half an hour and the meeting maybe lasted an hour. This is a very complex department that does a wide variety of things and we will certainly endeavour to provide as much information either through questions in Question Period, which we would be pleased to take, or through this Estimates process that we have finally arrived at on the last day of the session. Our intention would be to be as inclusive as possib le. This act and this legislation, this bill is a very positive step, and I know that it was widely discussed and known thr oughout the film and sound community.

Again, I would just urge the member and her colleagues to be tuned in as best you can to the activ ities that are going on out there. We will certainly endeavour-and I know that senior staff here will feel bad that they were not able to cover that issue when the member was in for a briefing, but it is something that we will endeavour to do in the future to be sure that everyone knows about it. Ms. McGifford: I appreciate of course that the advertisement for a staffperson would appear in the newspaper. I was not questioning that that should be the process.

My problem was, I learnt only inadvertently when I saw this and said to myself, what is this, and began tracking it down and actually talked to a few people in the community who told me about the process which I had not heard of. So I would have preferred to learn in the briefing session, and that was the reason for my comment. Mr. Gilleshammer: The CIDO organization has been around for a long time and their activities are well known in the film and sound community. Again, I suspect, this will be a good lesson for my senior staff.

There may be other things we did not tell you that day that we might want to share with you. I know my deputy and others will go back to the department and just perhaps see if there is more information that would be important for the memb er to know, and we would be pleased to provide that. CIDO is an organization that I am sure Carol Vivier, who is the executive director, would be pleased to meet with you and explain their activ ities. Another thing that I neglected to tell the member is that they have got a group in from California right now. It is called a producers tour.

They held a forum at the Hotel Fort Garry the other night with many of the people who are associated with the film community and had an opportunity to add their input. We are, of course, very excited that Kim Johnston, one of our leading members of our film community, is embarking on a new movie being filmed here in Wi nnipeg with Dan Ackroyd. I know from talking to him recently, he would welcome the member to the set to get a first-hand view of how filming is done. I would urge you to perhaps talk to the people at Credo, who have done a number of movies.

In fact, they even look for ordinary Manitobans to do walk-on, extras, shots in their movies. I know in the community of Gimli, that I visited last night, there were many in the community that had an opportunity to participate in this activity and, you know, it is a real exciting place to be. *

(1100) We are again pleased that we have been able to maintain our funding for this industry. Of course,

3336 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 19 96 Manitoba has just produced so many talented people in the arts conununity, and it just makes one very proud of the work that the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship-I know the member has been kind of hard on the staff here today, but I want to tell you that they do a wonderful job.

I know when they read Hansard, they will, you know, certainly take some of the direction the member has suggested, but I guess I want to defend them a little bit too because they, maybe more than many departments in govenunent, have a very close working relationship with the arts conununity, with the culture conununity.

I know, attending recent events at the ballet and symphony and other comm unity events, I see many of the staff attending there regularly, meeting with them, solving problems, giving direction and, even though they are not perfect, they I think do a tremendous job in the liaison with the conununity groups. CI DO is just one example of that, where other jurisdictions, I think , are withdraw ing their funding, Alberta being the most recent.

While we sort of feel bad that perhaps people within that industry in that province are going to cut back on their activities, Manitoba is seen as a place where it is a friendly place to do business. The film and sound conununity, I am sure, is going to continue to grow, and individual artists and producers, directors are seeing this as a good place to do business. The producers tour that I just spoke of, which wraps up today, was an opportunity for the department and CIDO to show many of these producers the places within Manitoba where they might like to do a film.

I am pleased that, for instance, the City of Winnipeg has recognized this as a potential growth industry and have appointed a film conunissioner to assist with the filming and other activities within the city of Winnipeg. Of course, this goes back a couple of years where a major film would have been shot here that would take advantage of some of the areas of the city that film producers were very interested in and, unfortunately, were not able to use because of a decision that was made .

I think there is a much warmer climate now for this industry to do business, and we have , I understand, two full crews in Manitoba now and probably even room for a third crew because of the activity that is going on in terms of filming movies and television productions. I know from the meeting the other night with representatives from the industry, people are very please d and proud with the direction this is taking. I can tell you that the act is going to allow us to put in place a board that is going to continue on with these activities. Our relationship with that conununity is a very, very positive one.

The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): Line 14 .2.( e)

(3) Grant Assistance $4,063, 600-pass. 14 .2.(

f) Public Library Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Ms. McGifford: I have some questions about Public Library Services. As the minister knows, New Democrats hold library services dear. We believe in the power of the word, and we believe in accessibility to library services. I wanted to ask the minister if his government is committed to accessible, free, and that is, neither user fees nor membership fee library services for Manitobans. Mr.

Gilleshammer: We are conunitted to libraries in Manitoba, and I am very proud to have been at the opening of three new libraries within the last short period of time, the most recent one being in the town of Neepawa . I would urge the member, if she is ever able to get outside the Perimeter Highway and do a little travelling in this beautiful province of ours, to stop in Neepawa, maybe take in the Holiday Festival of the Arts, which brings many dedicated writers and artists out to rural Manitoba to have a chance to see Margaret Laurence House and some of the other things there, but to visit the library.

This is just a beautiful new library that has opened. We were pleased to have staff from the Public Library Services branch in Brandon. That was one of our groups that were decentralized there a few years ago, another wonderful initiative that probably w e do not need to talk about here. We have a group of 22 or 23 employees in Brandon who provide expertise and direction to some 48 libraries in rural Manitoba. Again, Neepawa is the most recent one that has been brought on stream.

I am pleased to, not only have those partnerships with the towns, villages and municipalities, but also to have, over the last couple of -

June 6, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3337 years, increased the funding. Again, I hate to be talking about money, but I guess this is what budgets are all about. When the advisory board brought forward recommendations a few years ago, we were able to increase the funding for rural libraries by 50 percent. That was an additional $1 million that was put into the libraries. I do not think there is anything that would speak stronger about our commitment than putting the financial resources in place.

Working with municipal governments, I am pleased that many of those municipalities are putting more of their resources into the libraries, as well. Even though that forces us to match them, we think it is a tremendous investment in Manitoba. I sense, as I travel around the province to places like Stonewall, Neepawa and Ste. Anne, where they have new facilities, that rural councils are seeing the wisdom of adding additional municipal tax dollars to the library system and truly see this as an investment in their community and in the young people of their community.

We have also been able to, through the Community Services Council, put additional resources over and above that million dollars into the automation of our libraries. I would think almost three-quarters of our rural libraries are well on their way to becoming completely automated in accessing information from almost anywhere in the world. Here in the city of Winnipeg, our financial commitment has remained rock solid. We continue to flow, on an agreement basis, almost $2 million to the City of Winnipeg and their library system.

Again, nothing speaks louder about our commitment than the funding that we have been able to put in place for libraries. Ms. McGifford: The nuruster seems to take an inordinate interest in my travel plans. He did last year, and I notice he is doing the same again this year. Just to assure him , I have travelled extensively in Manitoba. I gave him this assurance last year. I have been up north. I have been down south. I have been east. I have been west. I know Manitoba; I love it. I have been everywhere, so please be assured, I have actually driven outside the Perimeter Highway often. I have been to Neepawa.

I am a scholar. I have written papers on Margaret Laurence. I know the town well, so please be assured, you do not have to worry about my travelling experience, but your interest is appreciated. The reason I am asking about user fees and membership fees is, as I am sure the minister knows, the Friends of the Library in Winnipeg are concerned. I know they have met with him .

I understand that the minister has given his assurance that neither in the short term nor in the long term does his government plan to introduce the enabling legislation which would allow the City of Winnipeg to charge either user fees or membership fees, but I have been asked by the Friends of the Libraries to bring it up. So I am bringing it up and ask the minister, once again, ifhis government has any plans, either in the long term or the short term, of introducing the enabling legislation. Mr.

Gilleshammer: I want to assure the member that my interest in MLAs knowing and understanding this province is not a personal thing. I give the same encouragement to all MLAs to travel throughout the province and see some of the most beautiful parts of North America. There are colleagues who have been canoeing up north in previous years and I understand have plans of going up there again. So this advice was not meant to be personal.

It is advice I give to all colleagues, that to be part of the governing of this province, you have to understand it and you have to see the various sights throughout the province and understand its people, so that truly you can be part of making tremendous decisions for Manitoba. I have met with the Friends of the Winnipeg Library. They were in my office not too many weeks ago talking about the funding that we give and were very complimentary in the direction that our government has gone.

The response that we gave to the report that was brought to government-and I do not want to have the member put words in my mouth about budgets forever and a day. I have indicated the resources that we have put into libraries, the direction we are going. Budgets are on a year-to-year basis. We, again, feel really important that libraries are just a tremendous asset to Manitoba and that Manitobans are using them probably at an increasing rate, and the technology that we are able to put in there is going to mean ever wider access to libraries.

So I think that we have responded to the advice we have received from the librarians and the library community. The member has the booklet that was presented to

3338 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 19 96 government about the future oflibraries in Manitoba and I think that everything we have done has been to not' only maintain but to enhance the facilities and the services that are provided. * (1 1 10) Ms. McGiff ord: My question was not about budget but about enabling legisla tion and asking whether the government in the long or short term had a commitment to not passing the enabling legislation that would allow the City of Winnipeg to charge user fees. Mr.

Gilleshammer: I believe the member knows that the minister responsible for The City of Winnipeg Act has been very clear on that issue. Ms. McGifford: Yes, I thought he had been clear, but I was asking at the request of the Friends of the Winnipeg Public Library. I wanted to make reference to the future of public libraries in Manitoba. I could not find a date in the publication, but my understanding is that it was released in February 1994, and, of course, what the document does is outline the issue, a plan with goals and objectives, conclusions and then a proposed timetable.

The proposed timetable is given in year one, year two, year three, and year four, and I wonder if I could ask for a calendar or a fiscal year to be attached to each of those years because I am not sure what dates are referred to in those years. Mr. Gilleshammer: The document was released on a bright and sunny day in Brandon, Manitoba, in 1994, and our response was given at that time. With a lot of these documents, they give us short-term and long-term objectives. We have addr essed many of them already.

There are others that are still before us, and we deal with the Library Association and our municipal partners to try and address the remainder of them as we are able to. Ms. McGiff ord: My question was, I wonder if we could attach dates to year one, year two, year three and year four. Is that possible? Mr. Gilleshammer: We can certainly tell you the dates of our achievements, and I say there are some objectives within the timetable that we are still working on. Whether we are able to achieve them this year or next year, I am unable to say at this time. Ms.

McG ifford: Do those years have dates or do they not have dates? Mr. Gilleshammer: There were no dates attached to them when the report was drawn up. We have indicated that we received the report just over two years ago and we have addressed the most pressing ones. I know from meeting with the members of the group that worked on this, people like Earle Ferguson from the university here; Iris Loewen, I believe from Morden; Marlene Genaille from The Pas, from northern Manitoba; Linda Pleskach who now, I think, serves the library in Selkirk; and Peggy Hood from Carberry.

They were just extremely pleased and maybe even thrilled at our response to their report that we had been able to address as many of the significant recommendations that they brought forward. I met with them not too long ago, and they are very pleased with the ongoing work that has been done on automation, with the manner in which we have been able to provide funding both through the Community Services Council and through the department, and recognizing that there is a changing landscape out there know that we are working hard to meet the other objectives that they included in the report. Ms.

McGifford: I want to ask the minister if public library services considers this report to be something that it wishes to fulfill, the goals, objectives, timetable? Mr. Gilleshammer: They recognize that this was recommendations to government that reflected some of the things they heard in 19 92 and '93 . They recognize that there is a changing landscape out there, and some of the recommendations that came from the community at that time and were relevant at that time are not as relevant anymore, and we work very closely with that community.

I know that I attended a national meeting here recently, and staff were at that meeting and had certain discussions with them. I know they also had a provincial meeting, last fall I believe it was in Gimli where we had an opportunity to discuss these issues. I can assure the member that the community represented by the people who drafted this report are genuinely pleased with the progress we have been able to make. We know that we still have more to accomplish, and we will do that as we are able to. -

June 6, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3339 Ms. McGifford: I wonder if it is possible for me to obtain an account of which recommendations have been implemented and which have not. I do not need it now. I would be happy to receive it when it would be prepared. Mr. Gilles hammer: We will endeavour to provide the member with additional inf ormation. Ms. McGifford: Thank you. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Tweed): Item 14.2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs (

f) Public Libr ary Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $760,400-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $457 ,5 00-pass;

(3) Grant Assistance $4,361, 200-pass. Item 14.2.(

g) Historic Resources. Ms. McGitTord: Last year The Museums and Miscellaneous Act was under this subappropriation, and I do not see the act here. I am sure we have not abandoned museums so I just wonder what has happened to it. (Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Chairperson, in the Chair) Mr. Gilleshammer: I can assure the member that we have not abandoned museums and are very proud of our flagship museum here in Winnipeg which continues to be the No. 1 reason why people travel to this city. We work very closely with museums across the province, both the municipal ones and the public ones, and we will continue to do so.

As far as the question about the line the member is looking fo r, I can see that she has completely baffied my staff. I am sure there is a logical expla nation fo r it, and they will come up with it shortly. The programming has continued as in the past in the activity identification. They simply have not included that as part of the explanation of the Estimates but the staff assure me that all of the great work we have done in the past we continue to do on into the future . * (1 12 0) Ms.

McG ifford: I read the minister's introductory remarks, and in his introductory remarks he spoke of the lOth anniversary of The Heritage Resources Act which I gather then-well, I know was passed by the NDP government in 1986. He also spoke about the need fo r a review of the general approach to heritage preservation. I wonder if he could provide any details of this review. Again, will the review include public consultati ons? Will there be opportunities fo r the public to comment? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, we have been talking about a Heritage policy review fo r a while.

As soon as the House adjourns later today, in the coming weeks I know that a strategic pla nning session has been scheduled for the department. One of the topics that they will have on their agenda, I am sure, is a Heritage policy review. So we are in the very beginning stages of that. My fe eling is that we need to do that. I met two weeks ago, I think it was, with the Manitoba Heritage Council over at the Art Gallery, on a Saturday, where these fine Manitobans came in to talk about heritage issues.

One of the issues that we discussed was involving them in Heritage policy review, and it is something that we are quite interested in doing. I am sure by the time we meet again fo r Estimates a year from now, we will have a clearer idea of what direction we are going there. But as a minister I fe el it is something that needs to be done, and I think senior staff are in total agreement on that. Ms. McGiff ord: I am wondering why the minister fe els a review is necessary. Has this act not accomplished what it was intended to do, or is it just every 10 years

an act should be reviewed, or what are the reasons? Mr. Gilleshamm er: I think the review that we speak of is not so much generated by what is good or what is bad about the act; it is about what the community is saying to us, that there is a fe eling that we need to perhaps rethink and give a sharper fo cus to what we are doing in Heritage. In meeting with that particular group, I think there was pretty general agreement that a Heritage policy review was a direction we wanted to go.

Again, fo llowing that, I know that senior staff in their strategic planning will fo llow up on that and decide whether there is some new direction we need in Heritage or whether we need just a more public fo cus on some of the things we are doing. It is something I have fe lt we needed to do for the last while and I am pleased that the

3340 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 19 96 Manitoba Heritage Council fe els the same way, and we will be embarking on that process at the staff level in the near future. Ms. Me Gifford: I thank the minister fo r his clarification . I am not quite sure where to put this question, so I am choosing to put it now, but it may be the wrong place. I am wondering if Culture, Heritage and Citizenship ever consults or if there is any consulting with Natural Resources when it comes to heritage parks. Mr. Gilleshammer: Yes. Ms.

McGifford: I wonder if the minister could provide any details about how that works or in relation to which parks. Mr. Gilleshammer: It takes place at the staff level. We have responsibility fo r the heritage act, and there are a number of government departments that we relate with not only fo r parks but other heritage sites and other heritage issues. I know there are times that we interrelate with the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism, with Rural Development, with Highways and with Natural Resources. Ms. McG ifford: So, in other words, the two departments share expertise. Mr.

Gilleshammer: That is correct. Ms. McGifford: I wonder if I could get an up-to-date list of designated heritage buildings. Mr. Gilleshammer: My staff would be pleased to assemble that inf ormation and have it sent to you. Ms. McGifford: I wonder if I could ask the minister, what are the advan tages to a building's being named a heritage site? Mr. Gilleshammer: I do not want to quibble with the member's words, but the fe deral government has responsibility for monuments, sites and rivers . We desi gnate buildings and the municipal government also can designate buildings. So I will deal with the buildings.

I guess the advantages to be able to preserve part of our heritage in terms of the buildings that are out there-recently I met with the mayor of Emerson, which has designated quite a number of buildings in that community as heritage buildings and I would invite all members of the Legislature to travel to Emerson and Mayor Wayne Arseny would be just tremendously pleased to, I am sure, conduct you on a tour of his community and the buildings that have been designated there.

In fa ct, in the meeting that I had with him, he had slides of probably 50 or 60 one- and two-room schoolhouses that are still existing in Manitoba and indicated to me that there are approximately 900 one- and two-room schoolhouses sprinkled throughout Manitoba. Some of them have been designated. The slides that he showed, showed vari ous kinds of structures, construction, roof lines, windows and doors. Obviously, there is some value to preserve some of them. It certainly could be argued that we do not need to preserve 900 of them or even designate 70 or 80 of them.

That is one of the conundrums the heritage community has: How many of these need to be preserved? Many of them now are being used for storage, fo r granaries. Some of them have been converted into homes. So there is always this issue of the importance of desi gnating a certain number of buildings. At the present time, there are many buildings in Winnipeg which have been designated and are important as part of the history and heritage of our provi nce. Problems arise, however, when there is not any use for them.

The city or the owner maybe turns the heat off, shuts the plumbing off, and you have a deterioration of the building. The conundrum then is, how many of these do you need to designate and how many of them are truly worth saving if there is no economic viability to it? I just asked a question last night about, what do you with a designated building that maybe needs to be undesignated? I am told there is a process to do that, too. There is always an issue here. Municipal governments continue to designate them.

Recently, in a little village out in the fa r western regions of the province, a line of five elevators have been designated as a heritage site in the little village of Inglis. The hope is that the original owners, the grain companies, will partner in preserving -

June 6, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3341 these elevators. So that is, I guess, one of the reasons we need to do this heritage policy review, too, is to see where we are going with the designation of buildings. There are some that have been designated in communities all over the province. It might have seemed like a great idea five years ago or 10 years ago, and now the current owner is finding that they simply cannot keep them up. They cannot sell them, and you hate to see them become abandoned.

Part of our review, I think, is to decide how we deal with these and whether we have designated enough of our buildings or whether we have designated too many and just where we are going with it. You hate to see abandoned buildings that have been designated, and nobody wants to use them. *

(1130) We have some beautiful, beautiful buildings in the Exchange District here, and the film producers who are currently in the province had an opportunity to tour that area just days ago and, in meeting with them last night, remarked how they felt they could do a number of movies there because it reminded them of a certain time and a certain place that they thought would be advantageous.

So this whole area of designating heritage buildings is a complex one and one that is going to have to be reviewed and decisions will have to be made, but our responsibility is to give provincial heritage designation, and it is a responsibility we share with municipal government. Ms. McGifford: I am wondering what happened to the community heritage plaque program. I do not see it. Last year, it was, I believe, under this subappropria tion. Mr. Gilleshammer: We have continued to honour the commitments that were made in the past, but it was one of the programs that have been discontinued within this year's budget.

Ms. McGiff ord: Can I ask why it has been abandoned? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I suppose a combination of things in that there was certainly a slowing down of the applications that were coming forward to put plaques up for sites where there used to be a school or there used to be a church or there used to be something, and what we are doing to satisfy the demand that is still there is referring them to the Heritage Grants Advisory Council to secure their funding through that avenue. Mr. Chairperson: Item number 14.2.(

g) Historic Resources

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1, 103,400 -pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $341 ,000-pass;

(3) Grant Assistance $712, 400-pass. 14.2.(

h) Recreation and Wellness Promotion

(1) Recreation (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $330,000. Ms. McGifford: I read this over very carefully, the descriptions, and I see that the Objective, activities and Expected Results have undergone quite a transformation from the year before. I want to take the opportunity to thank Jim Hamilton, who met with me in December and provided details regarding Recreation and an explanation for expanding the title from Recreation to Recreation and W ellness Promotion. I found this meeting on a one-to one basis to be very edifying, and I thank him for leading me to a fuller understanding of my critic area.

I want to ask the minister a question, and I think I am asking it at the right time. I think my colleague from Radisson may also like to ask some questions at this point, too. I know that there is a growing move towards partnerships, and I understand that Culture, Heritage and Cit iz enship has joined forces with Education, Health, Justice, and Family Services in order to initiate co ordi nated and integrated assistance or service for chil dren, youth and their families under the Youth Secretariat.

I understand that human resources is considered to be part of the Human Services Committee of Cabinet, if the minister is a member of that group. Is this an appropriate time then to ask the minister about his department's role in the Youth Secretariat? Mr. Gilleshammer: Sure. Ms. McGifford: I would like to ask then, what is his role, his department's role? Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, we were a late addition to that group and were added at our request in that I think that our focus on the quality-of-life issues in Manitoba is what our department is all about.

We see the work we do with community groups and the funding, whether it is in the arts or libraries or recreation, as contributing to the

334 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 1996 quality of lif e of Manitobans. Because of our emphasis on quality-of-life issues and because of the emphasis -particularly, the Recreation branch is taking on the whole issue ofwelln ess, and I know I have spoken at the recreation conf erence on a number of occasions, where we have an opportunity to meet with, not only recreation directors but also the boards, the volunteers who play such a vital, vital role in recreation delivery across this provmce.

They are just the most wonderful people to meet with because they have, I think, as volunteers, a finger on the pulse of their community. They recognize the partnership that exists between government and municipalities and school divisions that assist in thi s partnership to fund recreation programs in Manitoba, that we have a role to play by being, not only proactive, but also talking about a preventive approach to some of the social issues that exist within the society in Manitoba.

I know that last year, under the direction of the fo rmer deputy Tom Carson, he and many of the staff went to a wellness promotion seminar somewhere in Wisconsin -Madison, Wisconsin-Point Stevens, Wisconsin, and, I think, came back thinking that our whole thrust in recreation, and in fact within the department, should have more of a wellness approach. We know that through the work we do in recreation and in the arts and in libraries and wherever, we are constantly promoting the quality of lif e that exists in Manitoba.

As a result, we have tried to refoc us, particularly through the Recreation staff who work with our regional offices and with the Recreation directors who are sprinkled through so many of the communities in Manitoba, to provide leadership and to bring fo rth those volunteers.

So it is a combination of these things that have led to ref ocusing and for us to ask the Child and Youth Secretariat to be part of that group to give our point of view on how all the work we do within Culture has an impact on the issues that are fa ced by the departments of Justice, Education, Health, and Family Services, and we are very pleased to have joined that group and been able to put fo rward our point of view at those meetings. Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I want to ask some more specific questions related to the department's role in terms of the Youth Secretariat.

As I understand it, there are some 86 government staff who are participating in the various committees feed ing into the Youth Secretariat. One of the things I am wondering is how many staff and staff hours have gone into it from thi s department. I have a listing of the number of some of the staff, and some of us are concerned that this is an exercise that is taking up an awful lot of government staff time. There are, I think, 1 77 community people who are on various boards and working groups that are feed ing into the Youth Secretariat.

We are anticipating some very good work that is going to come out of this with some very good recommendations because of all the resources that have been invested.

So that is one thing I want to find out, is specifically the amount of time and the areas of expertise that have been dra�n from from this department, particularly from the Recreation branch. * (1 14 0) The other thing, though, I am particularly concerned about is I have been made aware that there is a specific time line that the Youth Secretariat is working on and that they were to have by January 1996, identified 2 percent of existing resources from the departments that are part of the secretariat's co-ordination to be allocated fo r the secretariat.

I know the line item in the Estimates under Family Services says there is $1 44,000 as the operating budget fo r the Youth Secretariat but I am also of the understanding that this is-and this has been confirmed by some of the other ministers-that there are to be monies allocated from those five departments fo r reallocation or to be reco-ordinated through the Youth Secretariat. So I am wanting some specific explanation of where in this department that money is going to be reallocated from and what services are going to be involved from this department in the Youth Secretariat.

When I look at what the Youth Secretariat is doing, in some ways this minister's department has some of the solutions. We know that there is Justice involved, that Child and Family Services and Family Services are involved, and they have sort of some of the problems and this department is going to have some of the solutions, particularly in the area of prevention. We know-and I do not have it with me right now, but I have a very good report on the benefits of recreation and physical activity that was done by the all-ministers task fo rce group on at-risk youth. It points to some solutions

June 6, 19 96 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3343 that this department, I would think, would have a responsibility for programming in that area. So I am wanti ng to have the minister answer specifically the resources that have gone in from this department, as well as the financial commitments that are going to come from this department to the Youth Secretariat and where those finances are going to come from. Mr.

Gilleshammer: We are certainly pleased that the member for Radisson has joined us for the Estimates today and regret she has not been here all morning where we have talked about the wonderful things that we do throughout the department. I know she will have an opportunity to read that in Hansard and perhaps [interjection] I am sorry, I think maybe the member was not finished asking her question. Ms. Cerilli: I was just nodding and saying that I am aware of a lot ofthe work that goes on in this department and I am awaiting the minister's answer. Mr.

Gille shammer: I am sure the member has a broad knowledge of what goes on in government, but we have spent the last three hours talking very specifically about many of the wonderful programs that we have within the department. Even though the member knows a lot, it would have been beneficial to be here for the entire discussion and to get an even deeper appreciation of the issues that we deal with to do with the quality of life.

I know I am pleased that my colleagues have been here listening and learning, and we have had a wonderful discussion this morning about so many programs across our department where we spend in excess of$50 million on quality-of-life issues . Even though the member is pretty sure that she knows a lot, there is always more to learn. I think I would really urge her to go back and look in Hansard to see the discussions that we have had and kind of get an appreciation of the wide variety of things we do.

I know she said that she is expecting great things from the work that we do, and I can assure her that great things are happening in Manitoba as a result of the work done by some very dedicated senior staff and approximately 300 other people who work within the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. The member is right, that I think we do have some of . the solutions that are necessary for societal problems. This is why we have taken a very proactive approach in having our department added to the Child and Youth Secretariat to add our expertise, particularly in the recreation area.

The source of the staff contributions that we make, in addition to senior staff, will be from the Recreation branch within our department. Certainly the focus that the Recreation branch has placed on wellness is going to part of that solution-again, very pleased with the tremendous compliments we have had from the member for Osborne (Ms. McGifford) over the whole department, but in particular her mention of meeting with Mr.

Hamilton who is an experienced bureaucrat within our department and has worked in the recreation community for many, many years, a very open and genuine individual who is committed to recreation across the province, committed to the concept of wellness and committed to having his staff work not only in the wider Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship to bring other divisions up to speed on what they are doing within the Recreation branch and the activities that are going on within recreation com missions across the province.

They have been wonderful ambassa dors in not only taking that message to the greater department, these 300 people that work for Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, but also to our recreation directors and our volunteers who sit on the boards of recreation commtss10ns throughout all of rural Manitoba. In addition to that I know they have also made contact and liaison with the recreation people within the City of Winnipeg and people who deliver those services- Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Point of Order Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Chairman, I would ask if you would call the minister to order.

I asked a very specific question about the financing from his department to the Youth Secretariat. I would hope because he knows that we are running out of time in the committee, that he would answer that part of the question, which was the kind of accountability that I am hoping will occur from these Estimates where we have-

334 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 6, 1996 Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. Mr. Gilleshammer: Same point of order. I am kind of shocked that the member for Radisson would come in to the last 15 minutes of our committee meeting and make these demands. We have been here fo r hours discussing the line-by-line activities of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. She, in a very rambling way, asked a number of things about what we are doing with the Child and Youth Secretariat, and I am attempting to answer that.

If she is not prepared to listen to the answer, perhaps I would question her entire point of being here. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member fo r Radisson does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the fac ts. * * * Mr. Chairperson: I would ask the honourable member fo r Radisson, do you have a further question to pose? Point of Order Mr. Gilleshammer: On a point of order. I would like to be able to complete my answer. Mr. Chairperson: Okay. The honourable minister of - * * * An Honourable Member: Are you going to answer the question? Mr.

Chairperson: The honourable minister, to complete his response. Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, Mr. Chairman, I certainly do not want to be baited by the member fo r Radisson who claims to have this tremendous knowledge of the things we do within our department, but she did acknowledge that our department has a role to play, that our department has some of the solutions that the other departments are looking fo r and- An Honourable Member: How are you going to pay fo r them? That is the question. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please.

I would ask the committee to please allow the response to be completed so that we can complete this

section of the Estimates bef ore the time runs out. The honourable minister, to finish the response. * (1 15 0) Mr. Gilleshammer: Well, I accepted the member fo r Radisson joining our committee at the eleventh hour to pose some questions, an

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-2-46c
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 2nd hansardpdf 46c.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	10dedb679e5b58189b6b516a5fb7b33bdd430b28

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