Manitoba Hansard — 30 October 2018 (Sitting 82B, 41st Legislature, 3rd Session)

41-3-82b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session – Forty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Myrna Driedger Speaker Vol. LXXI No. 82B - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, October 30, 2018 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Forty-First Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLUM, James Fort Garry-Riverview NDP ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley NDP BINDLE, Kelly Thompson PC CLARKE, Eileen, Hon. Agassiz PC COX, Cathy, Hon. River East PC CULLEN, Cliff, Hon. Spruce Woods PC CURRY, Nic Kildonan PC DRIEDGER, Myrna, Hon. Charleswood PC EICHLER, Ralph, Hon. Lakeside PC EWASKO, Wayne Lac du Bonnet PC FIELDING, Scott, Hon. Kirkfield Park PC FLETCHER, Steven, Hon. Assiniboia Man. FONTAINE, Nahanni St. Johns NDP FRIESEN, Cameron, Hon. Morden-Winkler PC GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib.

GOERTZEN, Kelvin, Hon. Steinbach PC GRAYDON, Clifford Emerson Ind. GUILLEMARD, Sarah Fort Richmond PC HELWER, Reg Brandon West PC ISLEIFSON, Len Brandon East PC JOHNSON, Derek Interlake PC JOHNSTON, Scott St. James PC KINEW, Wab Fort Rouge NDP KLASSEN, Judy Kewatinook Lib. LAGASSÉ, Bob Dawson Trail PC LAGIMODIERE, Alan Selkirk PC LAMONT, Dougald St. Boniface Lib. LAMOUREUX, Cindy Burrows Lib. LATHLIN, Amanda The Pas NDP LINDSEY, Tom Flin Flon NDP MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood NDP MARCELINO, Flor Logan NDP MARCELINO, Ted Tyndall Park NDP MARTIN, Shannon Morris PC MAYER, Colleen, Hon. St.

Vital PC MICHALESKI, Brad Dauphin PC MICKLEFIELD, Andrew Rossmere PC MORLEY-LECOMTE, Janice Seine River PC NESBITT, Greg Riding Mountain PC PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. Fort Whyte PC PEDERSEN, Blaine, Hon. Midland PC PIWNIUK, Doyle Arthur-Virden PC REYES, Jon St. Norbert PC SARAN, Mohinder The Maples Ind. SCHULER, Ron, Hon. St. Paul PC SMITH, Andrew Southdale PC SMITH, Bernadette Point Douglas NDP SMOOK, Dennis La Verendrye PC SQUIRES, Rochelle, Hon. Riel PC STEFANSON, Heather, Hon. Tuxedo PC SWAN, Andrew Minto NDP TEITSMA, James Radisson PC WHARTON, Jeff, Hon.

Gimli PC WIEBE, Matt Concordia NDP WISHART, Ian Portage la Prairie PC WOWCHUK, Rick Swan River PC YAKIMOSKI, Blair Transcona PC

3911 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, October 30, 2018 The House met at 1:30 p.m. Madam Speaker: Good afternoon, everybody. Please be seated. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS Madam Speaker: Introduction of bills? Committee reports? TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Cliff Cullen (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I'm pleased to table the Legal Aid Manitoba Annual Report for the fiscal year 2017-18. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Doug and Diane Mowbray Hon. Blaine Pedersen (Minister of Growth, Enterprise and Trade): Manitoba is known for its volunteers.

Doug and Diane Mowbray from Roland, Manitoba, may be –may seem like just more of that true Manitoba volunteer spirit, but their reason is special. Their son, Patrick, was killed by a drunk driver on May 17th, 2003. Since that time, Doug and Diane have dedicated their time to his memory, to mothers against drunk drivers, MADD Winnipeg, and more recently to the time for summer barbecue and car show in Carman every spring.

Approximately $22,500 was raised for MADD Winnipeg, with an equal amount going to the Patrick Mowbray Memorial Fund bursary, which in turn has presented over $7,000 to graduating students at Miami collegiate. The summer barb eque in Carman has also raised over $21,000 for Carman Palliative Care. Thank you to Doug and Diane, who have been tireless advocates in local schools with bringing the message of the dangers and the consequences of driving impaired. The message always remains the same: in Patrick's memory, please don't drink, please don't use cannabis and then get behind the wheel and drive.

The Mowbrays are with us today in the gallery today. Thank you for your dedication to Manitobans in Patrick's memory. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Take Your MLA to Work Day Mr. Shannon Martin (Morris): Madam Speaker, there are times –probably not enough–when we legislators truly come together to support an idea that has nothing to do with party lines, but instead to do with decency and inclusion. I speak of Friday, October 26th, when over 30 valued em ployees with disabilities took over 30 members of the Legislative Assembly to over 30 inclusive workplaces as part of Take Your MLA to Work Day.

Whether it was the Minister of Infrastructure (Mr. Schuler), the Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. Ki new), the leader of the second official opposition or the independent member for Assiniboia (Mr. Fletcher), there was broad participation throughout rural and urban Manitoba.

From its beginnings, the goal was to engage MLAs in Manitoba to witness the sig nificant contribution made by Manitobans with disabilities in inclusive workplaces throughout our province, how many inclusive employment opportunities can thrive with purposeful support and how many businesses and organizations in Manitoba are embracing inclusive hiring practices, and to share these points of reference to encourage other businesses and organizations to be more purposeful with their hiring practices.

I, along with the MLA for Dawson Trail had the privilege of joining Breanna, who toured us around Niverville's heritage manor where she's employed as a dietary aide, full time, for the last year. As part of Breanna's duties she is responsible for helping to prepare 240 meals each and every day. Take Your MLA to Work Day initiative is a component of Disability Employment Awareness Month, started four years ago when 17 MLAs participated.

So congratulations to all MLAs and workplaces for doubling that number and using our social media to highlight the importance of inclusion and the potential of each and every individual. Joining us today are two individuals that have largely spearheaded the initiative: Ernie Thiessen, the current Manitoba Supported Employment

3912 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2018 Network chair, and Oly Backstrom, president and CEO of SCE LifeWorks. Please join me in thanking them for their efforts to make Manitoba the inclusive province we all know it is. Thank you. River Heights Sharing Circle Forum Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Madam Speaker, nine days ago, at a River Heights sharing circle forum we focused on keeping people healthy, warm and safe this winter and in the future –in essence, what's needed for Manitoba's preventive health plan. Michael Champagne led.

He said, stop calling people homeless; instead talk of our friends and relatives on the street . If not for chance, it could be us. Help starts with understanding, dignity and respect. Marion Willis drilled down into the practical realities of helping people leave the street. Her efforts with St. Boniface Street Links and at Morberg House address meth addiction, mental health and previously being in CFS care. She delivers continuous and seamless support in Morberg House, followed by up to a year or two transitional housing with supports, and it works.

James Favel, of the Bear Clan, whose patrols have done so much to improve safety in the North End, described the immediate needs of our friends and relatives on the street for warming shelters, for food and for enough money to have some stability. Evelyn Forget took us to the world with a minimum ba sic income, based in the Dauphin experience in the 1970s. Such a program can help many individuals' ability to live, complete their education and find employment. Rick Lees of the Main Street Project affirmed: No one needs to be homeless. It can be fixed tomorrow.

We can have a healthier, warmer and safer city and province. We just need the political will to help our friends and relatives on the street. I thank Michael Champaign, Marion Willis, James Favel, Evelyn Forget and Rick Lees for their contributions, and thank you to all who brought donations of socks, mitts, toques and other warm clothes. Merci, miigwech. Filipino Garment Workers Program Ms. Flor Marcelino (Logan): Today I would like to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the arrival of 1,200 Filipinos to Manitoba, sponsored under a program by the federal government on behalf of the Manitoba Textiles Association.

It was a program meant to bri ng skilled workers into the booming garment industry. Over the years, those that came over under the program have become like family; they formed the Philippine Garment Workers group and began hosting a yearly reunion in Winnipeg. The social workers who were hired to help smooth the transition into a foreign country for the newcomers played a very important role in helping build that community. Perla Javate, Espie Oliveros, who came over with a group of 92 ladies from the Netherlands, were two of those s ocial workers.

They acted as guides and friends, helping to secure permanent visas, advocated for worker's rights and helped mentor the young girls who made up a majority of the recruits. The Philippine Garment Workers are now celebrating the 50th anniver sary of their arrival, and the success of the program can largely be attributed to the unsung work of the social workers. I would like to request my colleagues to honour Perla Javate, who is here with us today. Thank you, Perla, for the wonderful work you 've done for our community. Thank you very much. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Logan? Ms.

Marcelino: Madam Speaker, could I request that the names of the ladies who's with–who are here with us today be added to the Hansard? Madam Speaker: Is there leave to include those names in Hansard? [Agreed] Perla Javate, Espie Oliveros Ramos, social workers; Eugenia Cabuhat, Carlina Dela Cruz, Lydia Fernandez, Jovy Tangonan, Joanne Viviezca Windsor Park United Church Mr. James Teitsma (Radisson): Mostly mud with a few hundred houses; 60 years ago that's what the community of Windsor Park looked like. But, thankfully, some of the families who lived there saw past the mud. They saw a growing and vibrant community.

They saw opportunities to give

October 30, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3913 expression to their trust in God and to love and serve others and to share their faith in Jesus. In short, they saw the need for a church, and so in the fall of 1958 the Windsor Park United Church was officially constituted. In the early years the church grew rapidly, with standing room only at many services. A new, larger building was constructed in 1962, and this building still stands in the heart of Windsor Park at the corner of Autumnwood and Cottonwood Road. And so began a legacy of faith, a legacy of outreach, a legacy of service.

Windsor Park United Church has been a centre of the community from the very beginning, and it continues to do so today. There is a community-based arts group, there's Sparks & Brownies, there's Tot Time that provides child care to enable the parents to build community and, perhaps, my personal favourite is their annual Cookie Walk, which is just a few weeks away. * (13:40) On Saturday, November 24th you're all invited to com e to the church between 10 a.m. and noon – come early if you want good selection, fill yourself a bucket of cookies for just $8.

Windsor Park United Church also believes that they need to be generous, since God loves a cheerful giver. And that's why they help provide school supplies to Frontenac School and Archwood School in Windsor Park, and also to Strathcona School in Point Douglas. Every month, they serve meals at West Broadway Community Ministry, and they also support the Bear Clan Patrol. I've every reason to believe that they will continue to serve. They will continue to be an important part of the Windsor Park community, and they will continue to welcome everyone and bring love and compassion to the wider world.

It's my prayer that they will be able to remember the past, celebrate the present and imagine a brighter future for themselves and their community. So join me in congratulating today all the members of Windsor Park United Church who have joined us in the gallery today. Madam Speaker: Ministerial statements –oh, the honourable member for Radisson? Mr. Teitsma: Madam Speaker, I ask leave to have the names of the guests who have joined us from Windsor Park United Church entered into Hansard.

Madam Speaker: Is there leave to include those names in Hansard? [Agreed] Guests from Windsor Park United Church: Bill Belsham, Carol Belsham, Peter Czehryn, Ruth Klein, Brian Nazarko, Gordon Nazarko, Laura Steidl, Anne Thoroughgood, Doug Waldron, Patrick Woodbeck Madam Speaker: Ministerial statements? Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to oral questions, we have some guests in the public gallery that I would like to introduce to you.

We have seated in the public gallery from Manitoba Parents for Ukrainian Education 45 grade 5 students from Oak Bank Elementary, East Selkirk Middle School and Smith Jackson School. These schools are located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Infrastructure (Mr. Schuler), the honourable minister of –or, the honourable members for Selkirk (Mr. Lagimodiere) and Dauphin (Mr. Michaleski). On behalf of all honourable members, we welcome you to the Manitoba Legislature. ORAL QUESTIONS Dauphin Personal Care Home Nurse Staffing Levels Mr.

Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): We know that because of the Premier's cuts to health care that there are fewer nurses working in Winnipeg this year than there were in 2017. That means fewer nurses at the beside and fewer nurses helping patients get the care that they need. On this side of the House we believe that Manitobans should have more nurses and not less. We know that health care is very important to our families in Winnipeg, but now we're hearing about shortages of nurses outside of Winnipeg as well. At the Dauphin Personal Ca re Home they're missing seven nurses, 13 health- care aides.

They are down 10 beds at that personal -care home as a result. That's fewer elders, fewer seniors in our community getting care as a result. Now, that's a massive hit for a facility that only has 90 beds in total.

3914 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2018 Will the Premier face the facts? Will he acknowledge Manitoba needs more nurses and not less? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): Well, again, Madam Speaker, the member needs to be corrected on the actual facts. There are 48 more nurses working in the system right now than there were six months ago. There are more nurses working full time, as well, than there were six months ago. We're investing $700 million more this year in health care than the NDP ever did and we've currently got 100 positions advertised.

Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question. Mr. Kinew: We know this Premier's record on cutting nursing positions here in the city of Winnipeg: they reduced it by almost 100 positions relative to last year, and even when you factor in what the Premier has just put on the record here, we are still down on a net basis for the number of nurses working here in the city. But the question is about a nursing shortage outside the city of Winnipeg.

Madam Speaker, at the Dauphin Personal Care Home they have missed out on 20 front -line health-care staff and, as a result, they are down 10 beds. Again, this is a facility that is only rated to care for people in 90 beds, so losing 10 of those beds as a result of having 20 fewer front -line health-care staff is certainly a big hit, and that means a real impact for the people of Dauphin, people whose grandparents are going to suffer as a result of this cut to health care. It's a sad reflection of t his Premier's plan to cut health care in our province. Will the Premier realize his actions have consequences?

Will he commit to hiring more nurses, starting with the Dauphin Personal Care Home? Mr. Pallister: And congratulations to the community for the new MRI. We're very pleased to see health-care improvements happening in Dauphin and in the region it serves. In terms of my record, I'd compare it against the member's any time, Madam Speaker. Nurses know that this government will stand by them and work with them to achieve improvements in the health-care system.

We also should mention, in terms of doctor recruitment, that this government achieved the second best record of the last–over a decade, in terms of retaining doctors in our system. So we're working to retain doctors. The member opposite wants to raise taxes so doctors go somewhere else to find jobs. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary. Mr.

Kinew: Well, I do often joke that I owe Dauphin one doctor because I convinced my wife to move here to Winnipeg, but that notwithstanding, the situation that we're talking about here today is a poor reflection on this Premier's record on health care. The Dauphin MRI that he's talking about has been delayed endlessly by this government and, in fact, they can't install it and have it operational because the trained staff to operate the Dauphin MRI left because of the delays of this government.

When we return to the issue of the Dauphin Personal Care Home, we know that they've had to shut off 10 of those beds–10 fewer spaces to care for seniors in the community of Dauphin because of the cuts to health care that this Premier has brought down–ordered–at his Cabinet table. We know that there's 20 fewer front -line health-care staff working in the Dauphin Personal Care Home and 10 fewer beds as a result. Will the Premier reverse his misguided plan to cut health care right across Manitoba, in Winnipeg, in Dauphin and right across the province and, instead, commit to hiring more nurses today? Mr.

Pallister: Well, there're a couple of points, Madam Speaker. Nurses, of course, like all health-care professionals, want to work in a system that works for patients. The patie nts were the people who suffered under the NDP for many, many years, and nurses suffered along with them. So, Madam Speaker, what we're doing is we're building a system that works better for patients: better patient outcomes, shorter wait times, lower ambulance fees. The things that the people of Manitoba want and deserve to get, they're getting with this government. Dauphin Regional Health Centre Timeline for Operating MRI Suite Mr.

Andrew Swan (Minto): Well, if the Premier (Mr. Pallister) wants to se e nurses suffering he

October 30, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3915 should get out and visit an emergency room or a personal-care home in this province. The disrespect the Pallister government has shown to the people of Dauphin is not new and it's not isolated. They delayed Dauphin's MRI even though the community came together, raised money and built the facility for it. After dithering since the election, the minister finally promised the patients would start getting MRIs in October. We found out through freedom of information that's not –that wasn 't going to happen until November.

Now the health authority is saying December, and staff tell us that's unlikely at the least. Why did this government delay the Dauphin MRI for more than two years? Hon. Cameron Friesen (Minister of Health, Seniors an d Active Living): I welcome the opportunity to correct the record after that member speaks.

Now, let's understand that just yesterday that member was saying that it was a calamity that the agreement with the federal government on emergency funding for addictions had not been signed, and then he went back in the hall and he found out that even the federal minister was saying everything is tracking just along and that the plans are under way. So I want to assure that member that what he finds alarming one day, he finds satisfying the next day. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Minto, on a supplementary question. Mr.

Swan: Well, I guess we'll have to wait 'til the third question 'til the minister gets a note– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Swan: –and can actually answer the question. The minister disrespected the people of Dauphin, Parkland and the North by holding up this MRI. Since 2016 nearly 8,000 Parkland and Westman residents could have had MRIs done if the Premier (Mr. Pallister) and his government hadn't delayed this project. Staff were trained up and ready to deliver this service years ago, but this government's interference meant the trained staff departed and they haven't been replaced.

Now Dauphin ha s the equipment in place, but we're told they don't have the appropriate staff to start performing MRIs in that community. Will the minister apologize to people who have to drive over the mountain to Brandon or all the way in to Winnipeg due to the government's delays to this very important project? Mr. Friesen: Well, Madam Speaker, let's understand that when the member for Minto speaks, you kind of need a code breaker to get through to the other side to understand what he is really saying.

What he means to say is his government never followed through on a commitment to provide the western region of Manitoba with an MRI, and what he means to say is where his government failed, our government is providing the MRI for the people of Dauphin and the western region of Manitoba. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Minto, on a final supplementary. * (13:50) Mr. Swan: Well, there are a few code words – [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Swan: –that we know, which would be – [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr.

Swan: –dithering, deferrals and delay, which is this government's approach to health care in Manitoba. The people in Dauphin were ready for the machine, which we knew was available more than two years ago, and the Pallister government's dela ys showed disrespect to the people of Dauphin, the Parkland and the North because the staff needed to actually run the operation are nowhere to be seen. In fact, we've learned there's an even greater shortage than before. So let me just ask one question: Why is there no designated medical director in Dauphin necessary to deliver MRIs? Mr.

Friesen: Madam Speaker, I know I'm not supposed to ask the question, but I'm really wondering whether he has actually spoken to anyone from Dauphin. Because I did–becau se I did –and when I spoke to them yesterday what they said is they're very excited because just four days ago they blocked a street off and unloaded an MRI and loaded it into the room. But the member thinks

3916 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2018 it's a microwave oven that you plug in and us e immediately. I assure him that calibration and testing need to take place before we can begin to reheat. So please, Madam Speaker, tell him to stay patient a little longer. The community is welcoming this investment and this government is bringing this investment. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a–[interjection] Order. Accessibility for Manitobans Act Implementation of Compliance Standards Mr.

Wab Kinew (Leader of the Official Opposition): Madam Speaker, on November 1st an important piece of The Accessibility for Manitobans Act comes into effect: businesses will have to develop a compliance standard to ensure that their workplaces are accessible for all Manitobans. Now, the goal of the AMA is clear, it's to ensure that there's accessibility for everyone to live their life to their full potential. To take one example, the government promised to bring an accessible employment standard into force, as a rule, but the end of September 2018.

I t able the letter from the deputy minister for the benefit of the Premier, right now. Then his minister promised to have this regulation in the place by the end of October. It is, of course, now the end of October, Madam Speaker. No regulation has yet come into force or effect. These – [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –regulations make all the difference for making Manitoba a more accessible province. Why has the Premier dragged his feet and not instituted an accessible employment standard? Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Growth, Enterprise and Trade –[interjection] Order. Order. Hon.

Blaine Pedersen (Minister of Growth, Enterprise and Trade): Thanks for that question, because we continue to work with businesses all across Manitoba in terms of having accessibility into public spaces and the business community. The public facilities have taken up the challenge of this, making sure that all buildings are accessible to those who have handicaps of any sort. Madam Speaker: The honour able Leader of the Official Opposition, on a supplementary question. Mr. Kinew: Sounds like no action on the employment standard. But the minister wants to talk built standard, let's talk about that.

So, again, the accessible built environment standard i s supposed to provide for retrofits to doorways, to address the need for ramps, to talk about elevator access, all sorts of ways to ensure that physical barriers can be surmounted by those with disabilities. But according to information provided by the deputy minister of this minister's department, which I will table now, it looks like the Premier has decided that the accessible built environment standard will not include buildings. So the built environment standard, under this Premier, will not include buildings.

Instead, it will focus on sidewalks, pathways, parks, all sorts of things, but not buildings. Madam Speaker. Seems like a pretty big oversight in the built environment standard; makes no sense, really. Will the government retract this bizarre proposal and make sure that buildings in Manitoba are accessible to each and every one of our citizens? Hon. Heather Stefanson (Minister of Families): During the last election we committed to five standards in the accessibility for Manitoba act, Madam Sp eaker, and we committed to that in our first term.

And I can inform the House and Manitobans that we're on track to delivering on the promises. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Official Opposition, on a final supplementary. Mr. Kinew: Well, a careful perusal of the documents that I just tabled, Madam Speaker, will show that this government appears to be breaking their promises to implement The Accessibility for Manitobans Act. Now, we know–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Kinew: –that it is truly bizarre that their built environment standard will not include buildings.

It seems like buildings are a pretty important part of the accessibility framework that needs to be put into place. We also know that the employment standard is late. It should've been here in September,

October 30, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3917 Madam Speaker, and even according to their new timeline, they're behind the eight ball. Now, when advocates called out the government on this, they said, hold on, it'll be done by the end of September. And, again, we are still waiting here at the end of October. There are many more parts that need to be implemented in the AMA. Will the go vernment truly listen to Manitobans who want our province to be more accessible, and will they enact these compliance standards for the AMA today? Hon.

Brian Pallister (Premier): I thank the advocates for the disabled in our province for their work. I re call in every year in my memory that the NDP was in government those same advocates calling for action and their advocacy fell on deaf ears, year after year after year. And we committed during the election campaign to make the achievement of greater access one of our priorities, and in the first term we committed to achieving goals which we have enunciated clearly and are on track to meet.

And I can only –given the member's question, I want to assume his sincerity –I want him to know, as a child of two di sabled Manitobans who were affected by mobility challenges throughout their entire lives, this is something near and dear to my heart and to this government's heart as well. Disability Services Funding Concerns Mrs. Bernadette Smith (Point Douglas): Helen Roulette is a 31 -year-old Portage La Prairie woman living with cerebral palsy. For 10 years the support Helen received from Community Living disABILITY Services meant that she could live on her own.

This summer Helen was told by this government that instead of fulfilling her dream of even greater independence, she would have to move into a provincial group home. Helen says, and I quote: I feel no one is listening to me, my choices, my rights as a human and what I am saying. End of quote. We know this decision was a result of this government's cuts to community living disability. Why is this government not listening and putting the bottom line before Helen Roulette's dignity? Hon.

Heather Stefanson (Minister of Families): Well, as I said previously, Madam Speaker, we have committed to these five standards and we are on track to achieving that in our first term. Under the previous government they had committed to some of these by 2023. I can say to Manitobans that we will deliver ahead of time. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Point Douglas, on a supplementary question. Mrs. Smith: I know the minister has only been in that seat for a few months, but she's talking about the wrong file.

Madam Speaker, according to the government's briefing notes, obtained through freedom of information, the real reason for –this government is demanding the program bend the cost curve. I'll table to the document for the minister. That goal is to make services better. It's not to ensure people with disabil ities get worse service, it's actually to give them better services. It's not to cut costs. Bending the cost curve for supports with disabilities means fewer supports. That's what advocates have been saying for months.

Will this government actually start listening to Manitobans and hear who they should be serving, and provide them with the actual supports that they really need and deserve? Mrs. Stefanson: Well, what I can say to the member opposite and to Manitobans, that after 17 years of NDP mismanagem ent we are faced with having to clean up a significant mess from members opposite. We are committed to delivering programs to Manitobans that will help all Manitobans, including those under the CLDS program, and we will do so.

While members opposite spent more and Manitobans got less, we will ensure that there's those services there for Manitobans when they need them. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Point Douglas, on a final supplementary. Mrs. Smith: So, Madam Speaker, 31-year-old Helen is asking to stay in his –her home. What I'm hearing from this minister is she's not going to allow that woman to stay in her home. I'll give you another example. Advocates have been calling out this government for months now. The government's changes have met –meant cost cuts. Rod Lauder is the advocacy co -ordinator

3918 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2018 for Inclusion Winnipeg, which advocates for Manitobans living with intellectual disabilities. * (14:00) He was clear. He said, and I quote: The problem is that might not actually meet what peop le need to live in a good–to live a good life. They're actually going backwards. When government bends a cost curve, they cut back services. Why is this government cutting supports to Manitoba's most vulnerable? Mrs.

Stefanson: I can tell the member op posite and, indeed, all Manitobans, that we take the issue of accessibility for persons with disabilities very, very seriously, Madam Speaker. That is why we have embarked on some changes in programs that are focused on providing for those programs to thos e individuals who need it, when they need it. Under the previous NDP government they spent more; Manitobans got less. We have a different approach. We will ensure that those services are there for Manitobans when they need it. Government Notices Modernization Act Request to Withdraw Sections of Bill 8 Mr.

Dougald Lamont (Leader of the Second Opposition): Last week at committee we heard presentations about Bill 8, a bill that scraps more than a century of putting public notices in newspapers. Under this bill, instead of the government actively telling citizens what they're doing, citizens will have to do the work of digging up information on how the government may be undermining the environment, public health, human rights, water protection, se curities regulation, municipal boards, even the ability of the government to seize people's property when they've been charged but not convicted of a crime.

Bill 8 is against the public interest. It has no public support. It is a bill so bad this government has said they have no intention of proclaiming the offending sections. Since that's the case, why doesn't this government just remove the offending parts of the bill? Hon. Cathy Cox (Minister of Sport, Culture and Heritage): The member opposite ta lks about communication, and we talk about modernizing the way we communicate here in Manitoba. For years and years, 17 years, as a matter of fact, the members of–the residents of Manitoba were left in the dark under the NDP government.

We're going to modernize the way we communicate. We're going to provide Manitobans opportunity to have access to information 24 hours a day, 365 days of the year, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Second Opposition, on a supplementary question. Winnipeg Free Press Premier's Legal Action Mr. Dougald Lamont (Leader of the Second Opposition): Madam Speaker, one of the witnesses at committee suggested– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Order. Mr.

Lamont: One of the witnesses at committee, Madam Speaker, suggested that Bill 8 was introduced because the Premier doesn't get along particularly well with the media. Earlier this year, when the Winnipeg Free Press reported the Premier hadn't paid luxury taxes on his Costa Rican mansion for years, the Premier sued and said he has always paid his taxes. In August he settled his outstanding tax bill, which was a tax levied on luxury homes to help pay for affordable housing in Costa Rica. So the Premier has not, as he claimed in April, always paid all the taxes he owes.

The Winnipeg Free Press story was true, but it was also suggested at committee that the Premier has not yet dropped his lawsuit. Does the Premier still have an outstanding lawsuit against the Fr ee Press for accurately reporting that he failed to pay his taxes, and if so, will he drop the suit and apologize to Manitobans? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): Speaking of the carbon tax, Madam Speaker, I want to make it clear to members that the federal Liberal government is attempting to develop a two- tier carbon tax which the member opposite fully supports.

It has exemptions for Quebec which would allow Quebe c to have a tax level of one third, approximately, of what would be imposed on Manitoba. That in itself is indefensible, but it also makes excuses and exemptions for other provinces to the east of the Ottawa River, like Newfoundland and

October 30, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3919 New Brunswick. We learned yesterday that in New Brunswick, for example, the federal government is going to exempt coal-produced power. Now, Madam Speaker, the federal government under the Liberals, which this member supports, wants to impose a massive tax burden on the people of Manitoba while not respecting Manitoba's green record. At the same time, it will not impose anything but lower level taxes on other provinces to the east and it doesn't require them to make green advances like we've already invested in.

Now, I'm going to give the member another opportunity to stand up for Manitobans instead of standing up for what's wrong about this plan from the federal Liberal government. Madam Speaker: The honourable Leader of the Second Opposition, on a final supplementary. Harassment and Conflict of Interest Claims Independent Integrity Commissioner Mr. Dougald Lamont (Leader of the Second Opposition): We should all be concerned, Madam Speaker, with this government's approach to Bill 8 and the media. It's an assault on the public's right to know from a Premier who's willing to sue the media for stories he knows are true.

This is not normal behaviour, Madam Speaker, and it's a pattern that continues. When the Winnipeg Free Press broke the story that the member from Emerson had made disgusting comments to legislative employees, and had been for years, this Premier's response wasn't an open door and due process, it was the threat of a lawsuit. The first response to an allegation of harassment was to use lawyers to threaten and intimidate the media in an attempt to suppress the story. The Premier has claimed there is no wrong door and that people just have to approach him and that he followed his party's own standard procedure.

Is this government going to stop marking its own homework and create an independent integrity commissioner who can investigate and enforce harassment and conflict-of-interest claims alike? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): As opposed to the previous practice of the NDP government of covering up and c oncealing problems of harassment within government, we took a totally different approach, Madam Speaker, and embarked on consultations with the civil servants of our province, developed an intelligent, strategic plan, advanced training opportunities and aw areness opportunities for all in civil service.

I encourage the member to use those programs. I encourage him to co- operate with us in making sure this is a safer place to work. I encourage him to speak up when the Prime Minister takes free vacations from the Aga Khan, as well. Health-Care Services Funding Concerns Ms. Nahanni Fontaine (St. Johns): Last year the WRHA was ordered to cut $83 million from its budget, resulting in the closure of an urgent -care centre, an ER, the mature woman's health clinic. It meant cutting physiotherapy, Madam Speaker, and cuts to those receiving life-saving medications.

This year the Premier has demanded an additional $36 million cut. Why is the Premier cutting $36 million from front-line health care in Manitoba? Hon. Brian Pallister (Premier): Why does the NDP care so little about the sustainability of a health -care system that they blew millions and millions of dollars to the point where our debt -service costs this year alone are over $1 billion for the first time in Manitoba history? Why do they believe that throwing money at every problem is the way to solve it when the money they throw is borrowed on the backs of our children and grandchildren?

Why do they never understand nor never demonstrate a single piece of evidence to show that they actually care about the people who will need health care next year? Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a supplementary question. Ms. Fontaine: I'm not sure why the Premier only talks about money and not patient care here in Manitoba. So last year, again, the–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Ms. F ontaine: –Premier called for $83 million in cuts, and the WRHA's annual report shows that its funding was reduced by tens of–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Ms. Fontaine: –millions of dollars.

That's cuts, Madam Speaker, not increases as the Premier tries to claim in this House. The result is all around us, Madam Speaker: a reduction in the number of nurses at the bedside

3920 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2018 while overtime is on the rise. Now the minister wants to cut another $36 million before he closes two more emergency rooms. Why is the minister and the Premier cutting health care that Manitobans depend on? Mr. Pallister: Six hundred million more for health care in this year's budget than the NDP ever invested, Madam Speaker. Yes. But also a demonstrated ability to focus on bet ter results for patients, something the NDP never demonstrated, and also an understanding that fiscal management practices do matter. The member says why do we always talk about money every

preamble? Her and her leader reference dollars. They want more dollars thrown at issues– borrowed dollars, Madam Speaker. If we had stayed on the track the NDP had us on, we'd be borrowing $6 million today more than we'd be bringing in, and who would be paying that back, Madam Speaker? Well, the future–the people who live in the future, real people.

They spent money like there was no tomorrow, Madam Speaker, because they didn't believe they needed to be accountable for the decisions that would be made in the future, but we do, and we understand that the sustainability of a health -care system is what Canadians want and what Canadians deserve. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for St. Johns, on a final supplementary. Ms. Fontaine: Whether or not the Premier actually understands it or even cares, the combined $119 million in cuts to health in Winnipeg is hurting the quality of health care here.

The number of hospital and personal -care beds has already decreased and their plan for another $36 million in cuts further creates a reduction in beds, Madam Speaker. But it's c lear that the Premier doesn't want to hear this, nor does he care, because all he cares about is cuts: cut emergency rooms, cut nurses, cut beds. * (14:10) Will he back down and actually care about health care here in Manitoba instead of his precious cuts that's all he cares about? Mr. Pallister: The member likes to talk about compassion, but can fail to demonstrate it on a regular basis, both here and outside the Chamber.

She has not demonstrated in any of her decision-making that she understands the consequences tomorrow to children and seniors who need health care; we do And, Madam Speaker, when we reduce wait times we're demonstrating our compassion better than the member does by spouting off about spending more money. When we shorten wait times for personal -care homes we demonstrate our compassion to seniors. When we lower ambulance fees we demonstrate our compassion for those who need urgent care.

These are the things that the NDP never seems to understand, so rather they lengthen wait times, throw money at the problem and get worse results with every passing year. That's why they're where they are now, and that, Madam Speaker, is why they'll stay there, because they do not have the ability to demonstrate the understanding that it matters to Manitobans and to Canadians that they have health care tomorrow and the year after that and the year after that as well. We understand that, Madam Speaker. They don't. What they broke we're fixing.

Greenhouse Gas Reduction Initiatives Government Vehicle Fleet Reduction Mrs. Sarah Guillemard (Fort Richmond): Madam Speaker, reducing emissions is a task that requires everyone to do their part. Our government has been committed to taking real action on climate change. Furthermore, saving money while reducing emissions is something only our PC government could do. Can the Minister for Sustainable Development please update the House on steps that we're taking to save Manitobans money while also helping our economy? Hon.

Rochelle Squires (Minister of Sustainable Development): I want to thank my colleague from Fort Richmond for that wonderful question. Yesterday our government was pleased to announce that we're removing 400 surplus vehicles from the government fleet and encouraging more carbon-friendly practices of communicating and teleconferencing and carpooling. This is going to save 4,000 tons of emi ssions every year and sets the tone at the top. Our government is taking leadership on this initiative to lower our carbon footprint. I'm excited to

October 30, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3921 work with all Manitobans as we lower our carbon footprint. [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order, order. Methamphetamine Addiction Primary Care Clinics Ms. Cindy Lamoureux (Burrows): Manitobans dealing with meth addiction and psychosis pose significant challenges for primary health clinics and providers like NorWest community health clinic in the North End.

Today I'm joined by Corey and Amy up in the gallery from the NorWest clinic and between managing wait rooms, medical needs, finding safe transportation and places to stay for extended detox and support, NorWest desperately needs more resources. Madam Speaker, members of NorWest want to know what this government is going to do to help support primary care clinics and how other government services could be of support? Hon. Cameron Friesen (Minister of Health, Seniors and Active Living): The government is taking real action when it comes to the sudden and shocking rise of the use methamphetamines in our communities.

We know that it's a challenge that faces all of us together, everything from front -line care workers to the justice system, family system. It's a challenge in our communities, a challenge in our families. But Manitobans don't have to wait because the government is taking action now in respect of Rapid Access to Addictions Medicine clinics. In addition to that we are training more doctors to have addictions specialities, and we are increasing the number of beds in which to treat people with addictions and there's much more to come. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Burrows, on a supplementary question. Ms.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, there continues to be increased infection rates related to meth addiction and needle injection. People in the North End feel that they're being overlooked, and from a primary health -care and public health -care perspective there needs to be more harm reductio n and preventative practices in this community. Madam Speaker, allow me to ask another question on behalf of a staff member at NorWest clinic: What can the government do immediately to support harm reduction in our community through our resource centres and community clinics? Mr. Friesen: I thank the member for the question.

What can the government do immediately is to put more resources in communities where people would be able to get quicker treatment on addictions than they had at any point in time previously in Manitoba, and we're doing that with the rapid addictions medic ine clinics where–which has just seen its 200th patient, some of them immediately diverted from community into care where they're receiving the help they need. These are complex problems. It will take all them–all of us to solve them together, but we are making progress and continuing to talk with others about how to make our next steps.

Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Burrows, on a final supplementary. Ms. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the members of NorWest clinic have noticed the impacts that methamphetamine has had on their community as a whole. Children and others are facing this addiction on their streets, their sidewalks, their playgrounds. There are individuals who have used and are now trying to re-establish themselves after treatment back home, but there 'jurst' are not enough resources.

Madam Speaker, again, to quote a member from the NorWest clinic: How does this government plan to support the long- term impacts on individuals, families and communities that have been impacted by methamphetamine? Mr. Friesen: I welcome members from the NorWest clinic here today. That member knows, as well, that we have said we're very open to suggestions coming from anybody on how to deal with this. We know that no one has the one fundamental answer when it comes to dealing with this very sudden rise of methamphetamine use in our communities.

Today Manitobans will hear about additional measures being undertaken in the WRHA at HSC to keep patients and to keep staff there – [interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Friesen: –safe. But while the leader of the opposition continues to chirp, he's not learning about the important things that this government is doing to make real –real–demonstrations of commitment and make a difference in people's lives.

3922 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2018 We'll ke ep doing it, and if the member has additional options that we should consider, I welcome her to send those along. Manitoba Hydro Privatization Concerns Mr. Tom Lindsey (Flin Flon): On May 17th, 2016, this Premier was asked if he had any plans to privatize Manitoba Hydro or any part of Manitoba Hydro. He answered with one word: no. Yet now– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Lindsey: Yet now, this same Premier of the Pallister government has hired a partisan commissioner of inquiry to explore just that.

Why is the Pallister government laying the groundwork for privatization of Manitoba Hydro? Hon. Colleen Mayer (Minister of Crown Services): As we always have been, since we were elected in April of 2016, we're going to continue to listen and work on behalf of Manitobans in this province. We're going to continue to look at all of the services and give better services than they received for 17 years. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Flin Flon, on a supplementary question. Mr. Lindsey: Well, that was certainly an interesting answer, Madam Speaker. Let's talk about Mr. Campbell's record.

It kind of speaks for itself. During his tenure as premier of British Columbia–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Lindsey: –BC Hydro partially privatized its energy system and functions of the corporation were contracted out. This is not a neutral commissioner on these issues but a hand- picked, partisan appointee who has a clear preference for privatization. Why is the Pallister government setting us up for privatization of Manitoba Hydro? Mrs. Mayer: Let's be clear: we are not privatizing Manitoba Hydro. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Flin Flon, on a final supplementary. Mr.

Lindsey: The minister should know that attempts at privatization in BC resulted in escalating costs. Privatization functions had to be taken back. Simply, it didn't work: didn't work in BC; didn't work in Ontario; and it won't work in Manitoba. * (14:20) Does the minister intend to follow Mr. Campbell's failed privatization experiments by bringing them here to Manitoba Hydro, and is this government planning to privatize any part of Manitoba Hydro? [interjection] Hon.

Brian Pallister (Premier): Well, I appreciate a question from the member that is prefaced by a series of comments about his knowledge of things that don't work, Madam Speaker, because I know the NDP has a lot of knowledge about things that won't work. There's certainly no intention to privatize Manitoba Hydro because we stand by the referendum legislation which requires Manitoba's permission before that could ever be undertaken. Now, the NDP tried to weaken that legislation when they introduced the PST.

But I would say, Madam Speaker, it's a sign of the desperation and the proximity to Halloween that the member resorts to this jack-o'-lantern– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Pallister: –style of questioning. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Pallister: It's a jack-o'-lantern question, Madam Speaker, because it's orange–[interjection] Madam Speaker: Order. Mr. Pallister: –it's hollow, and like a jack- o'-lantern it doesn't really scare anybody anymore. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: The honourable member – [interjection] Order.

Agriculture Sector Collaboration MOU with North Dakota Mr. Brad Michaleski (Dauphin): The Minister of Agriculture and the agriculture commissioner of North Dakota signed a memorandum of understanding earlier this month that furthers agriculture co -operation between both our jurisdictions.

October 30, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3923 Could the Agriculture Minister –Minister of Agriculture inform the House of how the MOU will drive economic growth and job creation on both sides of the border? Hon. Ralph Eichler (Minister of Agriculture): Finally an agriculture question from a great farm member. Not only deliver MRI for a area, he's a great farmer as well. Madam Speaker, unlike the previous government administration, our PC government recognizes the importance of agriculture and its critical impact to our economy.

The MOU with North Dakota will be a continuation of friendship that focuses on shared priorities, trade and economic return on investments. Unlike the previous gov ernment, for 17 years, who closed the door on the border, we're opening up Manitoba for business today, tomorrow and every other year. Madam Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Madam Speaker: And I have a ruling for the House. Following the prayer on Monday, June 11th, 2018, the then honourable minister of Finance raised a matter of privilege regarding comments made by the honourable Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr.

Kinew) during oral questions on Thursday, June 7th, 2018. The then honourable minister of Finance contended that the honourable Lea der of the Official Opposition had accused the then honourable minister of Finance of misleading the House regarding government statements concerning rev enue from the sale of cannabis.

At the conclusion of his remarks, the then honourable minister of Finance moved, and I quote, that this House impose a remedy and reparation for this matter of privilege under rule 36, and that the Leader of the Official O pposition apologize for his stating that the minister of Finance made false statements and calling into question my forthrightness with this Assembly, as this amounts to unparliamentary language, and it is not suitable for this Chamber. End quote. The h onourable Leader of the Official Opposition, the honourable member for River Heights (Mr.

Gerrard) and the honourable member for Assiniboia (Mr. Fletcher) also offered advice to the Chair. I took the matter under advisement in order to consult the procedural authorities. There are two conditions that must be satisfied in order for the matter raised to be ruled in order as a prima facie case of privilege. First, was the issue raised at the earliest opportunity, and second, has sufficient evidence been prov ided to demonstrate that the privileges of the House have been breached, in order to warrant putting the matter to the House.

The then honourable minister of Finance had indicated that he had wanted to see the exact comments in Hansard before raising the matter in the House. Given that Hansard from June 7th would not be available until after that sitting day was over, the next available sitting day to raise the matter would be Monday, June 11th, 2018. The honourable minister did raise the issue immediately after the prayer on June 18th, so I am satisfied that the issue of timeliness was met.

Regarding the second condition of whether a prima facie case of privilege has been established, I would like to inform the House that Joseph Maingot advises, on page 254 of the second edition of Parliamentary Privilege in Canada, that language that impugns the integrity of members would be unparliamentary and a breach of order contrary to the standing orders but not a breach of privilege. Therefore, this issue should've been raised as a point of order and not as a matter of privilege.

Additionally, in looking at the remarks made while honourable members offered to the Chair, it is clear that the essence of what was raised is a dispute between honourable members ove r the same set of facts. As has been ruled numerous times by previous Manitoba Speakers, a dispute between two members as to allegations of fact does not constitute a breach of privilege.

Bosc and Gagnon advise on page 148 of the third edition of House of Commons Procedure and Practice that if a "question of privilege involves a disagreement between two or more members as to facts, the Speaker typically rules that such a dispute does not prevent members from fulfilling their parliamentary functions, nor does such a disagreement breach the collective privileges of the House." Citation 31(1) of the sixth edition of Beauchesne indicates that "a dispute arising between

3924 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2018 two members, as to allegations of facts, does not fulfill the conditions of parliamentary privilege." Joseph Maingot, on page 223 of the second edition of Parliamentary Privilege in Canada, states, and I quote: "A dispute between two members about questions of fact said in debate does not constitute a valid question of privilege because it is a matter of debate." End quote. Due to the reasons cited, with the greatest of respect, I rule that a prima facie case of privilege has not been established. PETITIONS Gender Neutrality Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background to this petition is as follows: Gender, sexuality and gender identity are protected characteristics of human rights, both federally and provincially, in Manitoba, Onta rio, Alberta, British Columbia, and soon will be in Saskatchewan, Yukon and other places in Canada. These governments have realized the need for this option on identification for the benefit of people who identify or who are identified by others as intersex, third gender, transgender, genderqueer or non-binary.

Identification and government documents should reflect gender neutrality to prevent issues that may arise from intentional bias on gender and misgendering. The people described above face anxiety and discrimination in many aspects of day-to-day life, such as interactions with health -care professionals, interactions with persons of authority, accessing government services, applying for employment.

Gender neutrality describes the idea that policies, language and the other social institutions should avoid distinguishing roles according to people's sex or gender in order to avoid discrimin - ation arising from impressions that there are social roles for which one gender is more suited than others. Many newcomers to Canada may already have gender-neutral ID. Many indigenous persons are coming to identify as two -spirit as the effects of colonization are lessening, and this needs to be addressed in the process of reconciliation.

Being forced to accept an assigned gender affects children and newborns as they grow and become part of society. There are many psycho - logical benefits for transgender and non- binary people to be allowed to develop without the constraints put upon them by having their gender assigned based on purely physical attributes. The consideration to have a third option like X or Other on documents was on the previous provincial government's radar for several years, but the current provincial government has not taken steps to implement it.

The City of Winnipeg is actively making its forms reflective of gender neutrality in respect to all persons who work for or come into contact with that government. * (14:30) The federal government now issues passports and is educating personnel about the correct language and references for non-binary persons. An Other option existed on enumeration forms for Elections Manitoba in 2016, was easily accepted and provided a framework to provide accurate statistics of those who do not identify under the current binary system.

The foresight, along with training and making changes on required forms, acknowledges and accepts persons who fall outside the binary gender so that governments and people can more effectively interact with one another and reduce the anxieties of everyone involved.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the provincial government to immediately begin implementation of plans to convert systems and forms to be more inclusive of two-spirit and other non- binary individuals, whether it be to include a third gender option or no requirement for gender on forms unless medically or statistically necessary, including health cards and birth certificates.

To urge the provincial government to immediately instruct the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation to offer a third gender option or no gender requirement for licences or any other form of provincial identification. To urge the provincial government to instruct Manitoba Health, Seniors and Active Living to offer

October 30, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3925 the option of Manitoba Health cards with no gender in order to reduce the anxieties of transgender and non-binary persons accessing the health -care system as a first step. To consider revisiting legislation that may need updating to meet the needs of its citizens in this regard. Signed by Jackie Swirsky, Matthew Swirsky, Andrea Vaile and many others. Madam Speaker: In accordance with our rule 133(6), when petitions are re ad they are deemed to be received by the House.

Speaker's Ruling (Continued) Madam Speaker: And prior to proceeding with petitions, I just have a correction to the matter of privilege ruling that I just read, and in paragraph 4 I should have stated Monday, June 11th, 2018, and not June 18th, 2018. I apologize for that. Further petitions? Grievances? ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Kelvin Goertzen (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, would you please call Bill 34 into Committee of the Whole. Madam Speaker: It has been announced that the House will resolve into Committee of the Whole this afternoon to consider Bill 34.

Just as a reminder to the House, as per the sessional order adopted on June 25th, 2018, on days when the budget implementation and tax statutes amendment act is considered in the Committee of the Whole, the House will sit until 6:30 p.m. instead of rising at 5 p.m. The House will now resolve into Commi ttee of the Whole. Mr. Deputy Speaker, please take the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE Bill 34–The Budget Implementation and Tax Statutes Amendment Act, 2018 Mr. Chairperson (Doyle Piwniuk): Will the Committee of the Whole please come to order.

Today we'll be continuing act –continuing the consideration of Bill 34, The Budget Implementation and Tax Statues Amendment Act, 2018. As agreed by the committee in –on October 22nd, 2018, questioning on this bill will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Matt Wiebe (Concordia): I wanted to start with some questions with regards to credit unions and some of the changes that were made in BITSA for credit unions. I'm just wondering if the minister can review those changes for the House. Hon. Scott Fielding (Minister of Finance): Sure.

There's two pieces of BITSA that really deal with the credit unions. One is eliminating the special deduction over a five -year period, and the other is eliminating the credit unions' profit tax. Mr. Wiebe: So I have to admit, besides the physical set-up here where, you know, not only the clerks but also the staff are in between me and the minister, and a little bit of noise in the Chamber, which I'm sure the Chair is going to get a handle on very shortly, I did have a little bit of –a hard time hearing exactly what the minister had said. I think he said the special deduction, and I didn't catch the second part.

Maybe if he could just repeat those and if he could just expand on exactly what the impact for cr edit unions, what that would look like under these changes. * (14:40) Mr. Fielding : Yes, the –you're right. The two pieces of the legislation that deal with credit unions are–No. 1 is eliminating the special deduction for credit unions. What we have done si milar to other jurisdictions such as the Canadian government, areas–provinces like Prince Edward Island, Quebec, and I believe the other one is Saskatchewan, have eliminated the special deduction for credit unions. And that's over a five-year period.

We tried to be –we want to make sure that it's a phased-in approach. So, in fact, our phase -in is actually one year later than Saskatchewan. I guess that–or eliminating the special deduction, and the rationale reasons for this is the credit unions are a mature institution. And if you look at –let's give an example in terms of banks, what they pay in terms of capital tax is in the tune of about $100 million. And so these, again, were deductions that we're phasing out of special credit, I guess special –you know–over

3926 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2018 a five -year period as opposed to maintaining what the current grow is. So we're moving towards what other provinces are doing. The second is in terms of eliminating profit tax for credit unions, and that will have an immediate impact where the whole 1 00 per cent of that is done in the first year to give some flexibility to credit unions. Mr.

Wiebe: So in terms of numbers of what the credit unions would be expected to pay in addition with removal of the special deduction, I'm wondering if the minister could give us a sense of what that number would be province-wide. Mr. Fielding : One thing that I will add to –from some of our officials here still, and Bruce and our other folks that are here that are supporting us – [interjection]–is the credit unions will also benefit from the increase in the small -business deduction, increase from 450 to 500 thousand dollars. So –and that is a bit more of an advantage that credit unions will be associated with it.

In terms of the phase -out of the special deduction, the p hase-out in terms of the amounts is about $3.1 million in the first year, and that's –there's an offset, I guess, in terms of the profit taxes that credit unions will not have to pay anymore for –that starts immediately. Mr. Wiebe: So it's almost like the s taff here in the Chamber were reading my mind and were anticipating where we were going in terms of the questioning. So I appreciate them starting to put those pieces together.

So, if I've got the number correctly, the minister is saying $3.1 million is the special deduction figure, and that's across the entire province? Maybe we can just compare those two numbers, then. So, if I understand correctly, the profit tax is a 1 per cent tax and the small business –removal of small -business tax for–the higher threshold is–would come into play there. Maybe could the minister just compare those two numbers.

What sort of savings, I guess you could call it, that credit unions could expect by the increased threshold and the removal of the profit tax when juxtaposed against the special deduction that they're going to have to pay in addition? Mr. Fielding : In terms of the elimination of the special deduction, we're phasing it in over a five-year period, so it's actually a little bit–a longer phase -in period than other provinces like Saskatchewan. But it is similar to other provinces such–as I mentioned–Saskatchewan with the–rather, the Canadian government as well as PEI and places like Quebec have phased it out.

We're doing it over a five-year period. That's one year longer, I guess, than Saskatchewan. In terms of the numbers, it represents about $3.1 million in the first year; and in terms of the special–or, rather, in terms of the credit union benefit to increase small business, again, it goes from 450 to 500 thousand dollars, so that identifies that budget line, and eliminating the profits tax for credit unions represents about anywhere from 1.3 to 1.5 million dollars. Mr.

Wiebe: Okay, well, that's just restating, I think, the same facts that the minister put on the record, although that does, I think, help me understand that, you know, we were looking at a number of $15 million for the removal of the special deduction, but I –so what I'm taking from what the minister's saying, the $3.1 million this year, that's each year will be added up so–and that's phased in over five years up to the $15 million.

So, again, I'm just trying to get to the heart of the matter here, which is that, you know, credit unions are facing additional taxes under this government, and I wanted to understand exactly how much that will impact them on their bottom line. So, you know –and I understand i f the minister doesn't have that analysis in front of him. That would be fine if we could come back with it.

But I just wanted to get a sense of what removal of the profit tax and the increased threshold –which I, you know, to be honest, like, I can't imagine many credit unions being affected by, you know, and, you know, the minister can maybe correct me if I'm wrong, but I know there are some small credit unions, but that would be an incredibly small credit union to be operating as, what we would consider i n this province, a small business. But, anyway, so I just wanted to get a sense of those numbers so that we can compare and see what the impact on these credit unions actually is. Mr.

Fielding : Well, I think –well, in fact, I know that all credit unions will benefit from the 450 to 500 per cent threshold change. That's part of the zero small -business tax rate for–that Manitoba enjoys. In fact, I think that's the lowest of any province for small business throughout the country, so they all will benefit from that.

October 30, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3927 Mr. Wiebe: Well, I'm, you know, I always appreciate when the minister puts on the record how much he acknowledges that our government lowered the small-business tax to zero here in this Province, and I think, at the time, it was the –well, I know for a fact at the time it was the only –we were the only province to do that. I don't know if other provinces now are playing catch -up. [interjection] I see my friend from Minto saying no. In fact, we are alone in that, so it's a–it is something that we were very proud of in working with small business.

But, I mean, again, to get to the heart of the matter here, and that is, is that, you know, credit unions play an important role in the economy of Manitoba. You know, they are an institution that, you know, is a part of the fabric of the community and employs Manitobans, of course. Credit unions across the province are the lifeblood of some communities, in fact, and help to boost business and work with small -business owners to amplify the work that they're doing.

And, ultimately, what credit unions serve to do, you know, apart from –that sets them apart from the big banks is that they keep Manitobans' money in Manitoba and puts it to work right here in Manitoba, so I know I have a lot of respect, I know our c aucus has a lot of respect for the work of credit unions. And yet, you know, this government has decided to increase taxes on those credit unions.

Maybe the minister could clarify, and this may not be –this might be outside of the BITSA discussion, so you can choose to answer it if you'd like to or not, but were there similar tax measures, increases, that were applied to banks that would put them at a level playing field with credit unions or were these increases solely for credit unions in the province? Mr.

Fielding: Well, one thing I think we can both agree is that small - and medium -sized businesses certainly do look at the NDP in a unique fashion in terms of their role in respect to their approach to business and allowing business to grow and prosper, so we very much agree with you on that point. What I can say, again, these are–it's –there was a special deduction, right, that's there. So this is not a tax increase. This is a deduction that was essentially a part of the realm going forward. * (14:50) Are you asking about banks? Banks pay about $100 million in capital taxes.

Credit unions –first of all, I want to say how much we value credit unions. I think they're a really important area of lender for a variety of areas, including the ag sector for sure. They are a very important institution, and we very much value what they do.

But, to be fair, when there is a calculation in terms of the amount, they are not paying the capital tax which equates to about $100 million for banks, and with this we want to make sure that there is, I'll just say that we value what credit unions do and we're doing very similar to what other jurisdictions like the Canadian government, that places like PEI and Saskatchewan and Quebec have done, in respect to any special deduction s associated with credit unions. Mr. Wiebe: Well, so, on the one hand, the minister acknowledges, well, what he called a special relationship with small business.

I think that is a good way to characterize it. I think small business said, wow, I can't bel ieve this NDP government is being so, working with us so well and values the work that we that do. So, on the one hand, he's saying that, you know, it's important to recognize the unique role Manitoba has played in the country in lowering small-business tax and being true friends of small business. But, on the other hand, he is saying well, no, wait a minute, actually what we want to do is just be like every other province when it comes to credit unions.

And, you know, I mean, it's all well and good to say that the minister stands with credit unions, you know, but the facts bear themselves out here where they're going to be paying $15 million more in corporate income tax. We already see at Caisse Populaire and other small credit unions closing across our pr ovince, and, you know, feeling an impact already. And, you know, and this will be a further burden on the work that they do.

So I think, you know, I think it's important that the minister acknowledge the impact that this is going to have, recognizes, as I said, the unique role that these institutions play in our–especially our rural communities, but throughout our province, and especially in keeping Manitobans money here at home, amplifying it, working with small -business owners and others to make sure tha t that money is invested here in Manitoba. Maybe I'll try to get at this a little bit of a different way. Did the minister –maybe the minister could just explain some of the consultation that went

3928 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2018 into this, and some of the discussions that he had with credit unions and what their response was. Mr. Fielding : Yes, since I know the previous minister had previous discussions with the credit unit central, I had a meeting with Credit Union Central over the last month and a half to talk about the changes that are–that we are making that are similar to other province s, very similar to other provinces and the Canadian government as it relates to special deduction that's associated with credit unions. So there has been discussions with the credit unions. Mr.

Wiebe: Well, this sounds like some of his colleagues in the w ay that he describes the consultation. I think we've heard his fellow colleagues sometime say, well, we had a meeting, we sure did, and there was coffee there and people showed up, and we had a meeting. And then that's about the extent of it. I appreciate that the minister has sat down with them. What I want to know is what the reaction was. How did these credit unions, you know, talk to him about this particular, you know, significant tax increase that they're going to be facing?

And how did they convey, or what did they convey to him about some of the challenges they're facing again with some, you know, small institution, caisse populaire, across the province shutting down? What kind of information did they give to the minister? Mr. Fielding : Well, we ha ve had discussions with the credit union. I know the special deduction was put in place in 1972, the year I was born, so it has been around for some 46- some-odd years.

I know that there's a long -standing benefit for credit unions, and no other corporations really have had the benefit and its addition to the small business tax credit that we had talked about. The sector really requires, or if you look at, they no longer require the additional government supports, i.e., credit unions assets increased by ove r $11 billion to over $27 billion since 2006. So they are a maturing organization.

And I think, if you look at their literature – and I want to emphasize the fact that we think credit unions are doing a wonderful job in our communities, and specifically in certain sectors for sure. Things like agriculture, we think, is important. But they have matured, and I think even if you look at their marketing literature, that what they will tell you is that they very much compete with the banks on a everyday basis. We wanted to make sure we did this in a fair and appropriate way. We didn't phase this out all in a way.

What you –when you talk to business communities, really what they want to look for is predictability. And so a phased- out approach to the special deduction–again, similar to what Canada as well as three other provinces has done–we think, will give some predictability in terms of the credit unions. And so that was part of the decision- making process. And we continue to have dialogue, and we encouraged the credit unions to continue to have discussions with us through our budget process.

The first year, as mentioned to you, there was a– there's an offset with the elimination of the credit union profit tax that's associated with it, so there is some offsets for credit unions. Mr. Wiebe: Well, once again, I've heard a lot about what the, you know, the minister has to say about the industry and about credit unions, but not as much as I'd like about what credit unions had to tell the minister, and I do think that's an important part of the story, and I do think that's an important consideration to make.

As I said, I think, you know, most Manitobans understand that they can trust their credit unions; they can put their faith in their local caisse populaire; they can–they know that, you know, they are capable of providing the right services and working with them to amplify their work here in Manitoba. But, that being said, they are at a inherent disadvantage against the big banks in Canada.

And, you know, not that, you know, I'm going to– you know, there's definitely a role to be played for big banks, but I think there's also a very important role to be played by small credit unions and, quite frankly, large credit unions, because, of course, we know in Manitoba we have some very successful cr edit unions as well. I did want to switch gears slightly for the minister if we could and talk a little bit about child care, and I think the minister may have some thoughts on this. So there's about –as the minister knows, about 17,000 names now on the child -care wait-list.

How many –so, the question is, by approximately how many will the development of a Child Care Centre Development Tax Credit reduce the number on the wait -list so that parents can work without having to worry about their child care? Mr. Fielding: I will address child care. It's something I have talked about a lot over my term

October 30, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3929 here in the government, but I do want to add a couple things to the record on the credit union. First of all, our government has very much supported clients that us e credit union services. In fact, we've made changes, obviously, to the threshold that we talked about, moving it from four hundred and fifty to five hundred thousand. We've indexed brackets that we think is very much important for all Manitobans. It's giving a little bit more money in your pockets. We've committed to reducing the PST, which was of course raised under the previous government.

And we've made important improvements in our systems to getting the fundamentals of government right. And when I mean that, I look at things like red tape; we look at, as mentioned, taxes and environment for businesses to grow and prosper, even things like tax- incremental finances. And the one thing that I would recognize: the fact that our economy is booming right now. You have the largest amount of private sector capital investment in the country right now. Because of Manitoba, there's businesses being attracted in the food-processing area. I know the Minister of Agriculture (Mr.

Eichler) is here and has done some fabulous work with help attracting–[interjection] Yes, I think he deserves some applause for it. And whether it be things like Roquette, things like Simplot, some places like HyLife Foods that are not only attracting businesses and jobs to Manitoba economy, it's growing it. We know that the private sector is growing upwards of 12 per cent on a yearly basis, and in terms of things with –you know, whether residential starts or things like commercial are growing at exponential rates.

But, to answer your que stion on child care, turning to that element, our government has made substantial investments in child -care area. You're probably referring to the elements of BITSA that talk about the child- care tax credit. We truly think that's a innovative approach to addressing child care and creating some spaces.

What we tried to do with child care, after consultations with Manitoba Child Care Association, is we've developed a new and innovative approach to creating spaces. * (15:00) I can tell you very much so –and I think you're going to be hearing a little bit more about this from the government over the next number of weeks or months–in terms of the amount of workplaces that are very much interested in this tax credit. I can tell you they're almost lined up out the door, when– through the Minister of Families (Mrs. Stefanson) and also, through Finance. And so we think it's an innovative way to approach child care.

And what it does, obviously, it provides a refundable tax credit for workplaces to set up child- care centres and that's over a longer period of time. We want to create upwards of either 75 or 100– over 75- spot child- care centres. And so we think, added to the approach of investing more money in child care, things like the $47- million investment partnership with the federal government on creating spaces, investing more money in things like the special –rather the inclusion support that's supporting children with either higher needs or autism.

We heard quite clearly from the child -care association that we need to do a better job in supporting it. So our government committed over $10 million towards that. We also, in the child-care sector, wanted to make sure that we're supporting things like ECEs. You hear that from all the time from the child-care sector, that you want to support people having the right training.

We created things like the living textbook, that you hear from a number of child -care providers, one in particular would be Cindy Curry, it's a child care provider just outside of Porta ge–to really get them the skills and knowledge they have. We also included northern strategy, a part of our child-care plan, a partnership of the federal government where we're investing money to make sure that ECE development is there and that spots are available. So, very proud of our investments in child care, it's created thousands of spots and we know that we are left with quite a hole from the previous government. Mr.

Wiebe: Well, I suspected the minister might have a lot to say on that and I gue ss I was right. But I've also been told by one of my colleagues that, I guess, he did start some of this line of questioning yesterday. So I'm going to, maybe, let him continue that at a point here in the near future, because I'm sure he has some follow -up that he'd like to talk to the minister a little bit more, and add some questions, about.

So, again, to slightly switch gears here on the minister, and I apologize for that–so we did start this conversation today talking about credit unions and had a bri ef discussion on the small -business tax that

3930 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2018 small businesses here in this province pay. As we talked about the increase, the threshold for paying that small -business tax has increased from $450,000 to $500,000. If the minister could, could he just giv e us a sense of what that impact is, in terms of revenue for the government, for raising that threshold to that amount? Mr. Fielding: Yes, I'm sorry, could you repeat the question? Mr.

Wiebe: Just the overall impact of raising that threshold, in terms of revenue, that the –yes, how much money is the government expected to collect less in terms of business–tax from small businesses. Mr. Fielding : I believe the figure is around $7 million that are associated with it. What I can tell you–and I 'll give credit when credit's due–I think the small business zero is important and so that was a good decision by your former government, so I congratulate you on that.

What we have increased that though; we didn't think it was good enough, and so we've increased it fro m four hundred and fifty to five hundred thousand dollars. We are still – although we're pretty similar to other jurisdictions – you know, overall, in terms of the deduction level, Saskatchewan's still a little bit ahead of us, where their deduction's up to $600,000. So, you almost view it as kind of like the basic personal exemption but for small businesses, where that's the threshold where you're not actually paying any taxes. So, all businesses are going to benefit from that.

But if you're a small busine ss, obviously, this means a little bit more than a huge corporation that's there. But we think that it does allow businesses to grow and prosper. And I think one other thing that we really heard from businesses that is important is in terms of addressing r ed tape, and although it's not necessarily in BITSA, it is an important factor for businesses. We know that, you know, if you have more red tape and regulations just for the sake of regulations, that's something that impacts the growth of small businesses.

And we know that small- and medium-sized businesses grow the most amount of jobs in the–not just the Manitoba economy, but in the Canadian economy. And so we need room to work with small - and medium -sized businesses to grow and prosper. And so we think this will help small-, medium-sized businesses. Mr. Wiebe: Well, it's always nice to get credit from the government and from this minister when talking about these tax breaks. And, again, something that we've talked very loudly about.

The pride that we have in working with small businesses, ensuring that they are paying their fair share, of course, but that – especially small businesses are given that break that sometimes they so desperately need when getting off the ground. And so I think there's a lot of benefit to that. And, as the minister would know that we realized we ran into a bit of a problem when implementing the small business tax reduction. So it did–it was reduced a number of times until we got to that zero. And then when we got to the zero, we realized there's nowhere to go. You can't go lower than zero.

And so that's where the threshold really came into play. And he will know that we increased that threshold on a regular basis for small business. And, you know, this is a government that likes to talk about the importance of predictability. You know, I would argue sometimes it's predictability in the wrong direction in terms of cuts, but in this case, you know –and in the case of the minimum wage, right?

You know, predictability –you know, every October, we –the–you know, the previous government would increase the minimum wage by 25 cents so that employees knew that they would come to expect that their wage would inch ever closer to a living wage. Again, this government has moved in a different dir ection. It's predictability, but predictability in a way that locks them in at a poverty level, which is a concern. But back to small business. When we talk about predictability–so the minister has –they've raised this–maybe he can give me just a bit of a history here.

And this might be something his officials could help him with is, in 2016, was there an increase to that threshold? In 2017, was there an increase to the threshold? And I guess most importantly, the question I'm trying to get to here is in 2019, can small businesses in this province expect that the threshold–the minimum threshold would continue to rise with increasing costs and inflation, et cetera? Mr. Fielding : Well, we're a little bit off topic for BITSA, but I will address a couple topics. Number one, there is 1,700 businesses – workplaces that will benefit from the increase.

So that would be businesses that –their revenues would be between $450,000 to $500,000. So, when you increase the cap, there's close to, again, 1,700 businesses that will not have to pay any tax. And whether –whoever brought this in–and I –you

October 30, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3931 know, again, not afraid to give credit where credit's due sometimes –you know, will not have to pay business taxes. To answer your question, even though it's outside of BITSA , you know, we are doing consultations on Budget '19. And so, you know, all options are always on the table. And so we're going to review that. But I can tell you we're –just started our process, so no decision's been made on 2019 and beyond. Mr. Wiebe: Well, that's disappointing. I thought I might get a peek behind the curtain there and get a scoop on what this minister is up to.

But, you know, that's fine; that's within the prerogative of the minister to hold on to that information. I guess maybe I could ask this in a different way, or to try to get a little bit of a different piece of information here. So as I said, I am interested if he could just to tell me, was it increased in '16 and was it increased in '17, and I guess –well, maybe I'll just leave it at that. If the minister could just answer the –has there been a regular increase since this government was elected, or when was it last raised? * (15:10) Mr.

Fielding: Yes, well, first of all, we are –we have been involved in a number of tax credit reviews. I think that's pretty out there with a variety of the tax credits that are in place. So part of that review led to decisions to allow small businesses to grow and prosper, and we thought this was one that would make some sense. What I would like to also say is that we are very much committed to reducing the PST, and PST is not something that just impacts residents. It has an impact on businesses.

In fact, I think the PST, if I'm not mistaken, has about a 40 per cent of, you know, the benefit –the overall benefit –somewhere between 40 to 50 per cent of the overall benefit of the PST will allow businesses to grow and prosper. And, you know, when you think about that –I, you know, had a –I was having a good discussion with a business friend of mine, and there was some talk of the carbon tax and the pros and the cons, I guess, we'd be having a discussion. The government has made a change in our plan, which we think is good, but there was some discussions.

And I put the point back to the business owner that was in the midst of buying heavy construction types of products, and saying, you know, we have committed to reducing the PST, and so would that 1 per cent make a differen ce on the heavy -duty construction product, whatever he was going to buy. And, you know, he was quite impressed that if you are able to reduce the PST, that is going to make a difference to, not just residents, but also to businesses. So our commitment to reduce PST is something that will not just have benefits for Manitobans, but will have impacts for businesses.

And you could put that together with the threshold increase that we've talked about here, you put that together with things like our commitmen t to reducing red tape, you know, and we've, kind of, moved from a, kind of, a model where if you need to introduce or reintroducing regulation, you've got to eliminate two, and that's the right size. We've kind of done a review of all red tapes, and I know you were going to talk about child care later on. We're in the midst of doing a review of child-care red tape, so it's not just in the business, but it's on the social services side.

All these things meshed in, we think, will add benefit to businesse s, and probably some of the reasons why we saw, in 2017, an increase of almost 12,000 new jobs for Manitoba businesses, and really, that means is these are jobs are going to stay here for the long haul. And so we’re very proud of that record, and we continue to lead the nation in terms of private sector capital investments. So I think the business sector is seeing, I guess, essentially, that we're trying to get the fundamentals of government right, and also an important business environment, I guess, to grow and prosper.

And you need to put these things in place, because you have interest rates that are going up. There's already been, I think, three interest rate hikes over the last 18 months, and you look at what has been predicted in Canada and the Uni ted States, you know, there's a good chance that there'll be continued interest rate hikes in Canada. We also know that there's quite a bit of tax cuts that have happened in the United States in the business –from the business environment that makes us a li ttle bit less competitive.

Manitoba leads–in fact, I think we're the –I think we're leading the nation in terms of exports to the United States over the last year, 2017, or year end, into '18. And so business is going well, but you need to get the fundame ntal rights and these are all

3932 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2018 elements of getting the fundamentals right to allow businesses to grow and prosper for Manitobans. Mr. Wiebe: Well, it's interesting. The minister slipped in there a little comment on the carbon tax, which, you know, when tal king about business and predictability, this is, you know, one of the major complaints that small business and large businesses alike, quite frankly, in this province, are critical of this government about. You know, I think businesses in this province want to be green.

They want to do their part to reduce the carbon emissions in this province. And, instead of moving on that in a way that would in–you know, work with business to give them the tools to accomplish that while protecting jobs and making sure that the green jobs of the future are there, you know, this government just walked away from the table. And the Premier (Mr. Pallister) made a decision on the fly –and I can appreciate that the minister wasn't at that table there when this decision was made. I'm sure he wasn't informed of it ahead of anyone else in his caucus.

They all found out at the same time and were all shocked. I remember that day. Everyone walked in a little bit shocked as to what the Premier had dreamt up over the–you know, the night; maybe had eaten a bad chicken wing or something and was having a restless night and was thinking back on that encounter with the Prime Minister. I can't imagine what it would've been, what exactly turned the tide here in this province, but what I do know is that small business and medium -sized business and, again, large business, even in this province has criticized this government for the lack of predictability.

And so that's why–that's kind of the heart of the question I'm trying to get to. And I don't think I've heard an answer from the minister, and this is a pretty straight -forward question. So I'm hoping maybe he could just take it as –under advisement if he doesn't have the answer in front of him. But what I'm trying to understand is the BITS A or the–sorry–the small business threshold. Now, this is an amount that has been increased this year and I'm just –I'm trying to understand, first of all, if this has been done on a regular basis since this government was elected.

But, I guess, more importantly, is why was this included in BITSA? I know this was something that was talked about by this government in terms of its intention to do this in the budget, so I'm just trying to understand the logistics of why we're seeing it here in BITSA. And, you know–and, again, I guess I am trying to poke a little bit to see if we can get a sense of if there's a feeling that the government would move to some sort of predictable increase that would, well, you know, be able to help small business in this province. Mr.

Fielding: Well, let me just address –I was part of the decision in terms of the carbon tax and I was aware of it, very much so. I mean, that's –you obviously need to take considerations of all these factors. Our government is very committed to gre en. We've got a green plan. In fact, we've got a large plan. There's about 67, 68, there's in the high 60s in terms of our carbon –our plan in terms of addressing areas of green. And we've taken some leader –I'll just give you one example right off the bat . Through our fleet services we want to reduce our carbon footprint as a government.

So we did a review of all our vehicles that we are using as a corporation, I'll say, and we've reduced our fleet by upwards of almost 500, just under 500 units. That's goi ng to save us, actually, about $2.3 million on an annual basis, reduce our carbon footprint–I know the Minister of Sustainable Development (Ms. Squires) talked about what that means in terms of emissions. But we think that's one small example of what we can do as a government to do it. So, once again, I was very much aware of the carbon tax decision. I think it's the right decision, and, you know, you talked about why this is included.

I guess the business threshold piece of increasing for 450 to 500–the threshold–that is part of BITSA. And to be frank with you, when the former government made changes to that –and I would suggest, in a positive way –that was part of BITSA, as well. It's a tax 'implemation' measure and so that needs to be included in BITSA. So it needs to be there to be implemented. Mr. Wiebe: So, okay, two things: maybe the minister could just explain why it's in BITSA? And the minister just said with regards to the carbon tax, he said something with regards to it's in the high 60s, I think he said.

I'm just trying to get some clarification. Exactly what did he mean by that? Mr. Fielding : You know, respectfully, I guess, I would point to the title of the bill: the tax implemento–implement–I'm saying it wrong–tax implement. You know, it's right in the actual title of the actual bill, so it makes sense that budget

October 30, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3933 implementation of tax statute amendments. I think I'm–after seven and a half hours of questions, I've tripled my own words. But that is right in the title of the bill, and so any tax changes that need to happen, need to be incorporated in that. And to be fair, the previous government did the exact same thing. It needs to be a part of the bill. That's what this bill is all about, so. We did announce the threshold change in the budget, so that's not something that's probably new to Manitobans, but it was announced in, you know, on the budget day. Mr.

Wiebe: Well, so that's helpful. I appreciate the minister clarifying that. Does makes sense to me now, I appreciate that. So just again, clarification on the minister talking about the carbon tax and had mentioned something about their green plan was in the high 60s. Just wanted to get an idea what that was. Mr. Fielding : Yes, I think our government has said yes to green and no to a carbon tax, and what I was referring to was our carbon –our green plan, which was introduced with the Premier (Mr. Pallister) and the Minister of Sustainable Development (Ms.

Squires) over the course of the last number of months. * (15:20) And so I was referring to the fact that there's one page of the green plan, I think it's 68 or 69 pages in length, I stand to be corrected, it could be 67, but that's the number that I was referring to that we have a comprehensive green plan. We think it's important to address and be more environmentally–take a more environmental stewardship look at things but not impact the economy. And so that's why we made some changes to the taxes.

In fact, our original proposal looked exactly that way where we trul y wanted to make sure the economy is not impacted. Just with the environment we know though what the federal government has introduced, the Premier has talked extensively that there seems to be kind of a two -tiered approach to this carbon tax, and if you're, you know, if you're east of Ottawa you seem to be getting, I'll say that east of the Ontario border, I guess, you would be getting a better deal than in the west. So that was our concerns with it.

And that's why we made some changes, and we think it's important to be green but also not impact the economy as well. Mr. Wiebe: Well, I would argue that the number of pages in the document doesn't necessarily speak to its value or its ideas. But anyways that's probably a discussion; I know that's a discussion for another time. So I'll leave that at that.

The minister, and this may be a question I'm having a bit of déjà vu here in asking this question, but I don't know that I asked this specifically, but I know I did ask the minister a little about housing and that might have been in a different context now that I'm sort of looking over at him here, trying to remember in what context we talked about that. What I wanted to ask about is with regards to the federal contribution to housing and housing projects in the Province. And I'm just not quite clear about what the obligation or what the commitment was by the federal government to housing in the province.

If he could just give me a sense of what that number looks like. And I know that the minister did have some conversations with the, our health critic with regards to the federal health transfers. So I just wanted to get a bit of a better sense on the government's–the federal government's commitment to housing in this province. Mr. Fielding : Yes, I can kind of briefly identify most of the–you know, I was the former minister for housing so I can give you kind of the overarching principles of it. For the most part, the National Housing Strategy is kind of a continuation of the investments in affordable housing.

It's a long- term agreement. The investments for new housing was long-term agreement and the new housing –National Housing Strategy, is a kind of a continuation of that agreement with the federal government. So there is a requirement on most fronts to, wouldn't say all fronts, but on most fronts to match dollars. There's a variety of components. We have signed on to the National Housing Strategy. The government is in the midst of negotiating a bilateral agreement with the federal government. We anticipate that there is–well, in fact, there is ongoing discussions of what that will look like.

There is a number of components that really are attached to this, and it's amazing how much of this information you slowly lose, that is –you're not the minister for three or four months. But for the most part, I can say it's really three components of it. There is the element where there is a matching fund, it was what we called investments in affordable housing; it was matching dollars, the federal and provincial dollars were–and build

3934 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2018 affordable housing. That has changed to something called provincial priorities, and so that identifies some housing priorities that the government has. There is also element of the National Housing Strategy that looks at the expiring of operating agreements. So as the member probably knows, the federal government got out of, really, the housing business in the 1999-ish time frame, and they moved the housing to the provinces where they're essentially administrating a lot of agreements, and they would flow some money to us.

At that time, the federal government said we're going to phase out that amount of money that flows to nonprofit housing providers, and the Province would be administrating that. And the thought at that point was that hous ing providers would have that time when they're mortgages become mature, where they would be able to make those investments and the premise of the program was to keep rents affordable for Manitobans. In some respects, that did happen; in some respects, it didn't. So a portion of the federal-provincial agreement talks about the expiring operating agreements.

The federal government has committed to have a backstop; I don't have the exact date of when it will be, but I believe it is 2019 where the flow of money that would –that was coming to the Province to support these non- profits that were coming off operating agreements would kind of expire. So the federal government, instead of continuing to deplete the amount of money that would flow to the Province kind of continued on that path. So it's a good- news story for non- profit housing providers where the amount of money that's flowing in from Ottawa will be there and allows them to keep their priorities together.

So, again, first priority was provincial pri orities; the second priority is expiring operating agreements. They have a new fancy title for it. I can't exactly remember the name of it. But the third element of the plan deals with a portable shelter benefit, and that's something that this government r eally supports. It's very similar to the Rent Assist program and so it allows people with low income, certain thresholds, to get basically like a subsidy, so it's very similar to the Rent Assist program where it allows them to take that portable shelter be nefit and maybe investment.

So, if you want to, instead of just being in a Manitoba Housing stock or others you can take that money with you and you can, you know, have choice and immediacy in terms of money and go where you want. So it's a very good process. I'm very supportive of that. I think that, if you look at supporting Manitobans, the amount of money that you could use with a shelter benefit, you could support probably six times more people in terms of housing than you can by just building one Manitoba Housing unit.

To build one Manitoba Housing unit, to–the debt financing to build it and to supply the operating agreement is equivalent to about $23,000 a year. So if you take that $23,000 a year, what you could get from a shelter–portable shelter be nefit, you know, if you averaged out maybe 3,600 bucks per person, you could support about six times more people on a portable shelter benefit than you could by just building Manitoba Housing units. So that's kind of the premise of the three elements.

There's obviously the ongoing discussions with the federal government on the bilateral agreement that the governments continue to work on, and we're happy to be part of it. Mr. Wiebe: So, the National Housing Strategy, the minister called that a bilateral agreement. I think I heard him say that the agreement has not been signed. Does that mean that there are no dollars flowing to the Province from the federal government? Mr. Fielding : No. The current agreement, the investments in portable housing continues on.

I believe the start date, if I'm not mistaken –and I'll have to refer this back, I don't have all the information right in front of me –is potentially starting in 2019, if I'm not mistaken, and– but the current agreement is in place that's there. So we have signed on to the National Housing Strategy, and then once the National Housing Strategy is signed on to, then it's up to the provinces. So each of the provinces will negotiate a bilateral agreement of the kind of the details, I guess.

So they kind of say, this is the envelope of money, and then we kind of, you know, negotiate with the federal government of, you know, what's in that envelope or the types of investments that are there. Overall, it's somewhere in the neighbourhood of a $300- million commitment over 10 years for both levels of government. So that's the overarching national housing agreement that we have signed onto. The bilateral agreement in terms of the details of what's in that envelope full of money is still being negotiated. We're hopeful that we can.

Just like to put a couple things on the record, you know, and I want to really apologize for this, because

October 30, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3935 for a number of months I've been saying that our government actually built over 487 new units of social affordable housing. I was mistaken. I was wrong about that and I want to apologize about that. We've actually built 558 new units of social and affordable housing since this government's taken office. So we made those investments. Not only have we opened these units of housing, but we supported them through operating dollars, which we think is important.

There is a number of projects that are still on the way, and so we've tried to take a balanced approach when it comes to housing by supporting new bills, supporting Manitoba Hous ing stock, supporting things like Rent Assist, and so it's a balanced approach to addressing affordable housing in Manitoba. Mr. Wiebe: I notice that the minister was reading from a note that came into the House to him. I'm wondering if he wanted to just table that document and maybe table the list of the housing addresses that he's referring to. Mr.

Chairperson: The honourable member for –the honourable Minister for Finance. * (15:30) Mr. Fielding: Well, I can do even better than that. I can tell you the housing units and where they are, so if you look at some of them –and I could list them off, if you want. There's 558, but, essentially, there is housing that was built: housing for homeless, Brandon, five units; there is MMF for Brandon north, two units; MMF Brandon south, there's two units; MMF Brandon, duplexes or triplexes for three units.

There's a variety of different areas in Manit oba that we've created housing, some things like: Old Grace housing corp, 30 units; things like Merchants Corner south, 13 units; things like Weston Seniors, phase 2 in Brandon, 48 units–that was a good one. We've got things like Merchants Corner north, 17 units; Cross Lake, phase 2, four units; things like Austin Family Commons, that's a lot of social housing that's there –Social Enterprise helped build that, by the way, it's a very good project –19 units; things like the St.

James Kiwanis Courts East –close to my neck of the woods in terms of where I represent–48 units; the St. Paul Martin estates, that's more in the Transcona area, about 92 units will be created there; the Fountain Springs Housing, and that deals with kind of like mental health, people t hat have mental health challenges for housing, which is important, somewhere –it's around 30 units; Downtown Commons, 46 units; the RTM relocations, there's various units, seven; Cambridge family housing in Thompson, 24 units; the bridge –I mean, I can go on and on and on.

But I guess my emphasis is the fact that it's 558 units that have been opened and we supplied, in three of our budgets, depending on when these things came on line, money for their operating dollars. So we have been making some import ant investments. We are continuing to make those important investments on future projects as we go forward. Mr. Wiebe: Well, first the minister claims that he's forgetting everything that–you know, from being the Housing minister, and then he's able to al most fill up five minutes. So maybe he's not losing it all.

I think it's all coming back to him pretty clearly, and I do encourage him; he does have the document in front of him. It's –[interjection]–table it. Yes, I think there's a request to table it. When–you make copies. Mr. Fielding: Just tabling doctor–the document. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, thank you. Mr. Wiebe: Well, that's helpful. I appreciate the minister doing that. So I just–back to the budget implementation and 'tach'–tax statutes act, with r egard to the bilateral agreement, so what I'm trying to understand is, you know, the minister says that this is an ongoing process.

Have other jurisdictions signed on to the – their bilateral agreements or can the minister just give me a sense of what they t hink the timeline would be to come to that agreement? And, again, just to confirm, here, that the minister said that, I think it was 2019 is when the dollars started to flow. When in 2019, I guess, would be helpful. Mr. Fielding: Yes, I got–refer–I'll have to verify the start mandate. I believe the process is in place, is like the old agreement stays in place until the new agreement is signed. I know our officials are meeting with the federal government in terms of that negotiation.

Just off –you know, I don't have all the literature in front of me. I know that the Ontario government prior to their election did sign on to–or did provide a bilateral agreement. Now there's a new government that has come in place since then, so whether that agreement is scrapped and we look

3936 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA October 30, 2018 to do another one, I don't know. But the last information I had I know at least Ontario did sign on to it. Some people, you know, thought that potentially there was some election timing that they wanted to make sure they got everything in place. But to my knowledge, again, I know I'm sure it has, but, again, that may have been rescinded with the new government, but we can probably get you some information of who has signed on and who hasn't.

What I would say is that our officials are working with Ottawa and there's finer details that have to be arranged with that, specifically in terms of the portable shelter benefit. And so those are details that are important that are still being worked out. And what I can say is people are not without a bilateral agreement in place because there is a current agreement through investments of affordable housing that, you know, is the current agreement that's in place until the new agreement is signed on to.

So I would also like to mention with the housing, there is a big–there's an important fund called the National Housing Co-Investment Fund. It's about a $16- billion fund across Canada. So, you know, Manitoba proportion, although there's not a provincial allocation for the housing, Manitoba generally get s about 3.5 per cent of these types of allocations. So, you know, I mean, there's significant amounts of money that's on the table of the $16 billion and that's everything from things like, places like non -profit housing can apply for this, private developers can apply for it.

And there's, kind of, a regiment of low -interest loans. I think it's like 1.8 per cent low -interest loans for a time period, I'm not sure what the term is, and/or grants per doors. The private sector ones are a little bit more–like, I think it's like 15 per cent. And what the federal government is looking to do is two things: build affordability into it. So the – certain amount of these units would be considered as affordable units, and they also want to make sure that they're green , you know, green buildings and that sorts. So those are, kind of, the two overarching principles of the co-investment fund.

I encourage all housing providers to apply for that. The actual application process is out right now, and it's, kind of, a rolling application until the money's all gone. So–and that's over a long period of time. So there's a real opportunity to provide some housing, and there is a bit of a provincial component to that that's still being ironed out, but we think that it's a good opportunity for housing providers to get some money for housing. Mr. Wiebe: Well–and I'm sure the minister knows why I'm asking this particular question.

And, I mean, obviously, this is because, I mean, first and foremost, any assistance that the Province can get to catch up in terms of the affordable housing deficit that we're facing here in this province from the federal government, it's, you know, one more dollar that could be spent in this province. It's a good thing. But, of course, I mean, the backdrop to those discussions and those negotiations that I'm sure that his officials are having is a Premier (Mr. Pallister) that has, at every opportunity, picked a fight with the federal government.

Now, not turned away any dollars, you know, let's be clear; has gladly taken whatever federal assistance can come our way, but not made it easy, not worked with the federal government to make sure that Manitoba got its fair share and that Manitoba was getting its piece of the pie in terms of the federal assistance, in a way that's most beneficial to Manitoba. So that's my concern.

I think it would be helpful, and I do have the minister on the record that he is going to try to get some more details about the timelines that he's expecting, so I do appreciate that feedback and I will–I think that'll be helpful, in terms of understand the picture that we're painting. I just wanted to jump around a little bit, I do have–I know others in my caucus are interested in asking some questions, and I do want to give them some time, but I just wanted to jump around a little bit, if hopefully we can get some quick hits of information.

What I'm trying to understand is with regards to the amendments to The Fuel Tax Act that are listed in the budget implementation and tax statutes act. So these are changes, amendments that are amended by, as it says here in the bill,

schedule E from The Climate and Green Plan Implementation Act, Bill 16. Of course, the minister will know, we have a number of amendments that are before the House right now, and there's much –there's been a dramatic change in this government's plan when it comes to a price on pollution in this province. So I'm just trying to understand how this will – this particular piece will be affected, where it says here to exempt interjurisdi ctional commercial cargo

October 30, 2018 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3937 and passenger flights from carbon tax when aviation fuel is purchased by the permit and delivered directly to the tanks of an aircraft for such a flight. Mr. Fielding : Well, I guess what I'd say is the provisions are kind of mute to a certain extent because we don’t–we haven't entered into–our policy has changed in the carbon tax. And so each, as I'm sure, the amendments that you'll be bringing forward will be voted upon and we'll see where that goes. Mr.

Wiebe: Okay, so what I understand is this is – and I know that there's been some discussion in the House about possible amendments to BITSA, and this would be –this would fall under those amendments. Is that what the minister is saying? Mr. Fielding : Well, I think we'll be able to vote on these certain things. I don't see any potential amendments that government would be making to this particular bill, but we'll have to see in a few hours, right? * (15:40) Mr. Wiebe: I'm genuinely confused. The amendments that the minister is talking about are the amendments to Bill 16.

Is it –what I'm trying to understand is just how –so, we're going to be voting here this afternoon on sections of this particular bill. If the minister's –if the changes, the government changes, to the Bill 16 go through–I'm just trying to understand the relationship between BITSA and the specific–or the specific changes that are being made here, how those will be affected by potential changes that will happen to Bill 16. Mr. Fielding: Well, I want to be clear. What I w as referring to is BITSA bill; I wasn't talking about Bill 16 in terms of changes –of changes.

That's – another minister can deal with those particular things. There's two things that –under the fuel portions of the bill that have any implications, and they–well, there's really one thing, but it's –they're interrelated–related to an exemption on aviation fuels. But, clearly, the government has signalled our intention on carbon tax and what our position is. And so, you know, maybe I'll leave it at that. I – you know, it's a –when these things come up, as I'm sure you're not telling us right now what your amendments would

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	41-3-82b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	41st 3rd hansardpdf 82b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	10fbf2b4efce1e056223211d9a7f92632210bb9a

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