LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 9 April, 1981 Time - 8:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Mi nister of Northern Affairs that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Com mittee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Education; and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources. CONC URRENT CO MMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR. CH AIRMAN, Morris McG regor (Virden ): Resolution No. 107, 9.(a )(1) - the Honourable Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a bit of information I would like to get from the Mi nister and his staff. I have in my hands an envelope.

I think the staff would know that it's an application for a dr aw under a hunting licence and I'd like some information. This envelope was sent with the names of the applicants and returned to one of the applicants in this way, as being uns uccessful. Is this the way the draws are made or is this envelope within another envelope when the draw is made, in terms of the applications for an elk, and I refer specifically to an elk licence? Mr. Chairma n , the envelope is going to the Mi nister.

I have ripped the top open but it was sealed in that condition with the names on the outside, and when the draw is made - at least the comment was made to me, why is our name on the open of the draw when a draw is made - is our name sealed in another envelope when the application is made? When the dr aw is made it should be within another envelope so that there is as in this case, a suggestion that all applications could have been looked at without the draw being made with the names on it.

I am assu ming, and I want the Mini ster to correct me, that envelope would have had to be mailed in another one and would have been kept in the draw and then when it's torn open then of course you know and this is mailed back to the applicants, I don't know. What is the procedure? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mini ster. MR. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Chairman, I thank the honourable member for bringing this to the attention of myself and the staff. I will ask the staff to have that information clearly made available to all of us and sent back to you. Perhaps, Mr.

Chairman, just while I have the mike, the other day, as has been my practice, I was asked to supply a certain amount of information, and I of course try to supply that information, I believe it was the Mem ber for Ru pertsland that asked for the Forest Management Plan 1980, the particular terms of reference for that study that was carried out. I would like to, if the Clerk can provide th at information to him. Also, I thought it was clearly un derstood at least by most in this room that I was prepared to forward some information about the Abitibi arrangements.

I would want to make that available to the honourable members. As well I was asked to, in a more general way, provide information about forest revenue, that is all the timber permits, timber sales, timber berths, timb er seizures and, generally, the revenue questions about that. I'd ask the Clerk to, I don't know, Mr. Chairman, how many copies there are available but I'm assuming that if I provide this information to the Member for Rupertsland that he will distribute that to whatever other members of his caucus that requested it.

I should ind icate to the Honourable Member for Rupertsland it would be my intention to provide further information with respect to Abitibi; we had agreed to provide the copy of, or terms of, the specific management agreement. That has not been made available to me but I will undertake to make that available to the honourable memb er at a very early occassion. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the Minis ter I believe ind icated yesterday that he would be presenting, I think he said it would be available for Wednesday, the Water Resources Program, in terms of maintenance and construction for this year? MR. ENNS: Mr . Ch airma n , I note that Water Resources personnel are available to do that. I ind icated to you that would be presented at the Capital section. I would, if I can be allowed a moments consultation with staff. Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that it'll have to wait until tomorrow. MR. URUSKI: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman, I wish to raise with the Min ister, and I know that he was not at the meeting, an issue that was dealt with in his own riding dealing with the area of what is known as Marshy Point. I was invited and attended a meeting at Oak Point along with his staff and the Member from Emerson, I believe. Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Minis ter what his departmental recommendations are with respect to this road at the present time? There's been great concern expressed at that meeting. There was a brief presented, I believe, to his staff by the East Meadows Ranch by a Mr.

Paul Vincent who indi cated that if that road is maintained - and I will just use portions of it - or at least left in place for this year and I quote from the brief. He says, "to adequately protect this area and its wildlife resource and at the same time leave the road in would require a person 2617

stationed at Deep Creek seven days a week to ensure that only a hay-making crew used the road." Mr. Chairman, the concern is, and I believe the Minis ter is aware of it, that any trespass ing and travel in this area will severely effect the nesting area for geese around Lake Manitoba. That is only one issue, Mr. Chairman. When this road was installed last fall, which was apparently installed after the haying season came into being, in fact farmers who had intended to cut hay, built a barge and had already barged themselves into the area.

At this meet ing it was brought out th at part of th e justification for the construction of this road, or these three crossings over these creeks, was that this area was an untapped source, or at least a source of hay, of some 5,000 tons, at least that was brought to the attention of the people at that meeting by the Member for Emerson, as being a departmental justification. Mr.

Ch airman, the farmers at that meeting ind icated that approximately 1,4 00 bales, some of which were round and some of which were the small square ones. were taken out of the area, with an approximate weight of 500 tons of what can be considered even by the farmers as being poor quality rough hay, Mr. Chairman. The expenditure of some $1 7,000 in this area to move out this 500 tons of hay is to say the least, almost irresponsible in terms of those crossings.

The farmers themselves, when this information was brought to them, one of the farmers who happens to be a councillor and others said someone must have been dreaming when they gave an estimate that these three crossings would give access to this quantity of hay, which was not the case, only approximately 10 percent of the hay in the area.

What happened was that when these crossings were left in over the winter months, because of the nature of the area, which with the north-west winds, this area seems to be a kind of a flow-through for Lake Manitoba waters, and happens to be a very good fishing ground for fishermen in the area. Fishermen throughout the winter, because of the restricted flow in these creek areas because of these crossings, cause such severe currents that fishermen at the meeting complained that at least 100 nets were frozen into Lake Manitoba as a result of the swiftness of these waters.

So there's not only been a problem with the hay situation or the irresponsibility or near irresponsibility of the cost investment, which farmers believe was for the benefit of maybe one or two farmers in the area, because the others who had wanted hay took the initiative and barged themselves in. The question has to be raised as to why some agreement wasn't made with those farmers who were prepared to barge themselves in, and why were these cros sings constructed for very little benefit to the people of the area.

The other question is, what is the department and the Minister's position with respect to the losses sustained by the fishermen of that area, who because of the severe currents, in fact a bill was given and the Member lor Emerson accepted a bill from one of the fisherman for nets which were frozen.

He was to hand them over to the Mi nister of Agriculture. but seeing that it is your department that would have had to give the approval to have these 2618 crossings built, I think there is an explanation that is necessary in terms of what you intend to do with these crossings; whether or not what concerns the department has with respect to the impa ct on wildlife; and if those crossings are not removed, what's the impact on the natural resources of the area. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I am very familiar with the situation that the honourable member is discussing and bringing to the attention of the committee at this time. I can only ind icate to him some sequential order of events that took place. We did, as the honourable member is only too well aware of, have an acute pay shortage last year as a result of the drought that called upon the Mi nister of Agriculture and the Department of Agriculture to expend su bstantial dollars of freighting in hay, from distant points, Southern Ontario in particular.

The Department of Agricu lture was pressing the department for making available, and the department responded in a way that the honourable member was urging us to respond during last spring's drought season, to make available lands that were otherwise set aside for wildlife purposes, wildlife management purposes, whether it was lands of this nature or in the north such as the Saskeram, to make available to farmers to meet this emergency situation.

So I remind the honourable member that it was at the ini tiation of the Department of Agriculture, su pported by resolution of the local council, that provided the basis for the provision in the building of that road.

The honourable member is also well aware, since he and I come from the same part of the country, that the latter part of the haying season, we ran into very adverse weather, extremely heavy rains that saw indeed many of the same round bales that he speaks about, su bmerged half way in water, and I think he dis played some pictur es of that happening in his constituency and the same thing happened to some extent in the area in question. So that accounts for the less than optimum harvest. I'm aware that that area has been hayed.

The kind of ton nage that was purported to the department as being available, was hayed in the Thirties, the Forties, most laterally, intensively in the Sixties, from the years 1961 to '65. I'm told that seven or eight farmer-ranchers in that area, hayed that particular area of land, indeed built their own makeshift crossings over the same channels that now have some admittedly makeshift culverts in them, and I personally in spected them and know whereof I speak. Now, Mr.

Chairman, as Min ister of Natur al Resources I want to assure the honourable member that under no circumstances will any situation be allowed to continue that could act to the detriment of the wildlife concerns in that area. There is by the farmers and by the local people themselves, a very deep and understanding concern, as well as by the department, about the maintenance of the wildlife in the aree, notably the Canada Geese. We are concerned about the fisheries, of course, but, Mr.

Chairman, I think the honourable member, if he were candid, would have to acknowledge that there may be a fair amount of emotion and rumour at this stage. I have instructed the Department to monitor the situation throughout the break up season

Thursday, 9 April, 1981 this spring, to pay special attention to that area with respect to some of the wildlife concerns, trespass concerns that he mentions, and as well to the actual work that is done. There is some concern on the department that what is in place may well not be acceptable, although we would want to confirm that by actual field work and field monitoring of the situation, and there may well be reasons for some change in what's taking place. That's the only comments that I can make about that situation.

I would be well-advised not to add further comments that I happen to know of as being relatively close to the situation that have contributed to some of the controversy involved in that particular situation. But I want to assure the honourable member that the conce.-ns that were expressed at that meeting will be taken into very serious consideration. The assistant Deputy Mini ster, Mr.

Surrendi, was personally on site, took the time to inspect the road in question and then attended the meeting, as well as of course other staff members of the department have very clear and factual knowledge of what's going on in that area, and I give the honourable member my assurances that there will not be a situation allowed to develop that will act detrimentally to the fisheries, to the habitat of the Canada geese and to the general preservation and enhancement of that area for the multi-use purpose which I believe that area can sustain. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman. I thank the Minister for his remarks.

At least I gathered within the tone of his rem arks tha t he is ind icating that he and his department have ma de a mistake in terms of providing this access. He didn't answer the basic question that I posed as to why was no agreement made with the farmers who had already built a barge, had spent money to barge themselves into the area. That question really should be answered. I think the Mini ster indi cated, and quite rightly so, and maybe I am putting words in his mouth but that the estimate of 5,000 tons is highly exaggerated to say the least as to the capability of that immediate area.

I think the Mi nister, if he is well aware of the situation and has been there on site, would well know that this area that we are talking about, where those three crossings were built, there is no way, at any time, that kind of situation, that kind of crop can be made. I thin k the Mi nister really should be prepared to ind icate to us here and to the people there how he proposes to deal with, what does he specifically propose to do with these crossings in the short term and in th e long term? Ho w is he prepared?

I mean he can give me all the assuranc es that he wants that he has the interests of wildlife and the like and he should be aware and have great concern, he has indicated that. How is he prepared to deal with the situation in the next few months, Mr. Chairman, when the break­ up will be over? You will have the camping season beginning. What does he intend to do? Mr. Chairman, the owners - and they are just one of those - the owners of East Meadows Ranch make quite a case in terms of the situation.

They make six points and I think it's probably worthwhile putting it on the record as to their feelings in terms of the situation in this area. I will read the six points. Its a page and a-half, Mr. Chairman, and I quote: "The area to which the road provides access provides two-t hir ds of the brewed rearing and 2619 molting habitat utilized by Marshy Point goose flock. The presence of man or man and machinery during the critical brooding and molting period will deprive the geese of this area as they require comple te privacy.

Geese nesting throughout the marsh take their young to this area and to the lakeshore ridge south of

section 29, township 18 , range 5 west, to feed on the narrow meadow grasses of the type the young require. "The lakeshore on

section 29 and to the north has high course vegetation that is useless to young geese. An annual count is taken by East Meadows of young geese on the lakeshore from south of

section 29 to the southwesterly point of Marshy Point and then east to Channel Creek. The count averages out at about 1, 500 young with 1, 000 of these in ttte area of West Channel Creek. This count was verified by Dr. Dennis Ravelling of the Canadian Wildlife Service prior to 1973. "There are a great number of ducks of almost every species that nest and raise young in the area. Human activity will result in a net loss of this habitat to them. Foxes den and spend the summer in the area.

The beneficial effect they have in controlling mice and the prairie dog population far outweighs their slight effect on waterfowl. Again, human access and activity would most certainly force them to abandon the area. This would also result in an economic loss to trappers in the community over a much larger area. "To adequately protect this area and its wildlife resource and at the same time leave the road in would require a person stationed at Deep Rock, Deep Creek, seven days a week to ensure that only a hay-mak ing crew use the road.

A steel gate or removal bridge would not be a deterrent to anyone with a Honda A TC, for example. Such a person merely crosses on foot and floats its vehicle to the other side. "D oes the community want the area to turn into a picnic ground for drinking parties and legal shooting of wildlife? We cannot expect C.O.s and the RCMP to spend the time in the area that will now be required to protect it. There's also the very strong possibility that the now restricted out-flow at the affected creeks will cause flooding due to wind tide.

Aside from the damage done by flooding waterfowl nests, there could be a loss of existing hay cropping on Marsh Islands and East Meadows land adjacent to the east side of the marsh. "Conclusion is that the East Meadows Ranch was established by W.A. Murphy in 1945 until his death in 1968. He was dedicated to preserving his holdings at Marshy Point as a wildlife sanctuary, first and foremost. We the Curry and Vincent family, Mr . Murphy's successors will continue to give wildlife top priority at East Meadows.

"The success of my grandfather's efforts was largely a result of communi ty support and shared aspirations for waterfowl at Marshy Point. We hope that now and in the future we will continue to enjoy your supp ort. It would be sad ly ironic tha t a municipality which has built a reputation on the continent for its conservation efforts and chosen the Canada Goose as its community symbol were now to withdraw its support for what took so long to build. Marshy Point is unique but it is also an extremely fragile ecosystem. We believe gentleman that one

Thursday, 9 April, 1981 small road can cause serious damage to our wildlife heritage at Marshy Point. Paul Vincent on behalf of the owners of East Meadows Ranch". Mr. Chairman, th ere is on e man's opinion, admittedly, but certainly the farmers are nevertheless equally as concerned and the Mi nister of course, as well, did not comment on the economic loss that fishermen sustained as a result of those crossings being put in. So, Mr. Chairman, I think the Mi nister owes these people some explanation as to how he intends to specifically handle this situation in the months ahead. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I have already ind icated that. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, is th e Mi nister indicating that there will be compensation to the fishermen who lost their nets as a result of the in crease in currents as a result of these crossings being put in? MR. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, that hasn't been established as a fact. Mr.

Chairman, there have been many reasons for difficulties that Lake Manitoba fishermen have had, one of them because nets have been sold that were und ersized when found by my inspectors and I happen to know that in excess of 100 or so nets were lifted for that reason and we are not compensating for that loss. Regulations happen to be regulations; fishermen are aware of those regulations. We have worked diligently, in this case with the supplier that's been involved in the supply of those nets; he's agreed, under appropriate circums tances, to make refunds to fishermen for these nets, but, Mr.

Chairman, simply somebody stating tha t some thing ha s occurred doesn't necessarily make it a fact, particularly in a situation such as this. I have indi cated to the honourable member that I have asked the Department and the Department has, of its own in itia tion, and in recognition of their responsibility in this area, taken the necessary steps to ensure that the situation will be under additional review and attention will be paid to it. We will monitor very carefully as to what actually is taking place. Mr.

Chairman, it should be noted that at this particular point, whether or not it's the particular works in question have caused substantial change in the water flow, there has been no water flow yet, the ice hasn't broken up; this is all conjecture at this point. The concerns, and they are valid concerns, I am not for one moment brushing them aside, that there can be some disturbance to the other wildlife in the area such as wild geese; they have to be of concern to the Department and they will be attended to. MR. UR US KI: Mr.

Chairman, can the Mini ster indicate whether he intends to have this road remain in place for this season? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am not prepared to make any fina l decision with respect to the maintenance of that road until such time as the necessary field work is done by the Department.

It may well call for its removal; it may well call for structural changes to the road, structural changes to the types of culverts installed but this will be decided upon after the kind of resources that the Department can bring to bear, with respect to enforcement problems, with respect to the fishery problem when we have it monito red in the coming year. These are the kinds of considerations that we'll look at and future decisions will be based upon. MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, could the Minis ter ind icate then under what conditions did his Department allow the Department of Agriculture to construct this road? What were the conditions as set by his Department to the Department of Agriculture who I understand did the actual construction work on the advice of Water Resources engineers but on also, 1 believe, the access and the determination would have been given by your own department? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, again, the honourable mem ber is well aware the basic and principle condition by which the agricultural interests were met in that area, and it was initiated, I remind him, by the Department of Agriculture that there was a very dry summer last year and the province was expending sums of money that went into the millions of dollars for the in-migration of hay, if you like, to put it that way. At the request of the Department of Agriculture the particular work in question was sanctioned by this Department. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, was there any time limit that was put on?

I believe the Minis ter cannot put all the responsibility on the Department of Agriculture. There is no doubt that your department, who has the primary interests of the resources in that area, would have had to concur with the recommendations put forward by the Department of Agriculture for the immediate purpose.

And the other question is, why was there no negotiated agreement made with the farmers who had already built a barge and had, at the time of the construction of this road, or even before the road was being constructed, had already barged themselves into the area and had already put up the hay, or were in the process of making the hay? What explanation can there be for neglecting and even bypassing the local initiative of the farmers in that area who had already barged themselves in? MR. ENN«;: Mr. Chairman, I am not personally apprized of all the specific details involved.

I am aware that's a fairly substantial and large area, and my understanding is, and I don't necessarily hold that to be correct, that the area in question and he talks about the farmers barging themselves in, is in a different

section of the land in question. As to the conditions that were laid down, I am aware that certain conditions, with respect to some repayment per ton mile, but again, Mr. Chairman, these were conditions laid down, to some extent by the Department of Agriculture, and I will have to un dertake to find out more precisely what, if any conditions, were attached to the construction of that road. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, can the Mini ster ind icate whether it was the intent of his staff, when they gave permission to the Department of Agriculture, that this would be a "temporary" road? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that was the intent of the Department. 2620

Thursday, 9 April, 1981 MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, could the Minis ter indicate how long does he view the word "temporary". MR. ENNS: I am not aware of that specific information. By the same token I am also aware the department has received equal representation to retain the road, and I am sure the honourable member knows that there are always two sides to a equal representation to retain the role, and I'm sure the honourable knows that there are always two sides to questions such as the one that we're discussing right now, and that is being considered.

I'm giving the honourable member the assurance that any retention of the road will be taken only under cir cumstances that safeguard th e department's interests in that area. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, it's quite clear that the words of the Member for Emerson at the meeting, where he indicated that the decision was a hasty move on behalf of the department and as well that an analysis made by some of his people, wherein they indicated that looking back at the situation it would almost appear irresp onsible to have constructed a road in that area for such a negligible or small amount, not negligible, but small - the word negligible I use wrongly, Mr. Chairman - because there was some benefit. Approximately 500 tons of hay were moved from the area.

Admittedly, at least the Minister should admit that in retrospect the decision was hasty to say the least and I hope that his assurances that the resources of the area will not be hurt by the hasty and almost irresponsible decision of he and his colleague, the Minister of Agriculture. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I should not really be concerned about the honourable member's future welfare, but I do caution him that particularly with the Ides of March upon us and past, the kind of summer season that we may have.

There may be well good reason, sound reason for us to be looking for every bit of forage, every bit of hay, to sustain our cattle herds in this province, again this summer. If the honourable member wants to talk with the benefit of hindsight, because of extreme heavy rains that prevented us from harvesting the amount of hay that was available in that area, that's one thing.

But he was standing in that House and charging us on what we were going to do about drawing the water on the Saskeram, which many of my wildl ife biologis ts were deeply concerned about, which Ducks Unlimited gave me hell about, but on behalf of the Farmers' Association of The Pas, the government, the Department of Agriculture said yes, under these circumstances, ducks comes second, the livestock and farmer's welfare come first and I make absolutely no apology for that. If the honourable member wants to call that an irresponsible decision, I want it on the record, Mr.

Chairman, that the spokesman for the New Democratic Party has that little regard for the farmers in this country, in this province, that he is prepared now to speak from both sides of his mouth because he was telling us a different story when he 2621 was in the House last spring when the drought was threatening. Now I want to ask him, yes, we made a hasty and a fast decision to draw down the water on the Saskeram marsh, certainly not in the interests of wildlife management in that area, but we had to take options under those circu mstances and, Mr .

Chairman, the situation on Marshy Point was identical, on a smaller scale and I'm prepared to allow the farmers of Manitoba and the wildlife interest in Manitoba, whom I deem to be responsible people, to make that judgment about that action in the future. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, it would be only this Mi nister's statements that would be irresponsible and deemed as such. Mr. Chairman, the Minister seems to forget the one issue, that access was there to the farmers. The farmers did get in, before you even built the road, Mr. Chairman. That' s what the Mi nister so conveniently seems to want to bypass.

The fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman, no one is opposed to the use of the area, no one said that, but the fact of the matter is and a lot of people in his own a;ea are upset, that there was access to farmers to that area. They had already barged themselves into the area. No one on this side objected to the use of that land. Not at all. In fact it was hayed as the Mi nister said, in the Sixties. We do not object to that.

The Mi nister better realize that the fact of the matter is, he misses the fundamental point that there was access and access was provided by the intiative, not of the government but of the farmers themselves, and if his Minister had looked beyond his nose, Mr. Chairman, he would have seen and he could have co-operated with the farmers in that area and assisted them in much of the lesser expense than he was prepared to undertake, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR.

A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Yes, well just before we leave that item, -(I nterjection)- Yesterday I believe the Minister made light of the suggestions that I made in regard to a loss of an animal during the hunting season and the Minister ended on a flippant note, I believe, and there was some glee or laughter from members of the government in regard to the problem that this farmer faced in the loss of a valuable animal, approximately a 1300-pound animal, which is quite a serious loss for anyone to sustain. I was a little bit surprised to see members treat the issue very lightly.

I have assisted in every way I have been able to, to see that justice is done in regard to this farmer, who feels that he has been not dealt with justly. With those comments, Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to move on to the next item unless my colleague wants to continue. MR. CHAIRMAN: 9.(a)( 1) - pass; 9.(a)(2) - pass; 9.(b)( 1) - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, I wonder if the Mi nister could advise what the dry year, what effect did that last year's drought have on waterfall in regard to this? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised by staff that in general terms what it meant was that birds tended

Thursday, 9 April, 1981 to overfly some of the more traditional prairie nesting grounds. to more northern portions of the province and the country.

There was - as data is just now coming in - a decline in the production of waterfall. generally across the prairies as a result of the drought, but not to the extent that we have very serious concerns about it There were as one would expect and we are concerned about it I think in the coming year, several incidences of botulism that received a fair bit of publici ty and it's always a concern to wildl ife enthu siasts and biologists when that occurs, but it takes place in some of our shallower bodies of water and marshes that aren't replenished with the kind of spring run off that they have in a more normal year.

I'm advised that while you have an incidence of botulism occurring as we had on one or two specific areas. I believe the Oak Lake area being one specifically that received a considerable amount of attention and it tends to be a very high profile kind of occurence when the media can go out to a particular site and actually photograph and film several hundreds of waterfowl, ducks, dying from that dis ease. It isn't however anywhere near as serious in terms of the overall impact in waterfowl production in the province.

There are other far more substantial and major concerns about waterfowl production that the department has in an ongoing way. I think, just in a very general way, the provision of habitat, the maintenance of habitat far exceeds these sporatic and occasional outbursts of disease which occur and have occurred long before man tinkered with wildlife or waterfowl in this part of the world and will continue to occur when we face those situations again. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, I wonder if the Minis ter has any figur es as to the reduction in the total count? MR. ENNS: No, Mr.

Chairman, the staff advises me that no figures are available that I could use in any accurate way. MR. ADAM: There wouldn't be any change then, Mr. Chairman, in the limits for the next season? Or is that too early to determine at the present? MR.

ENNS: At this point, and we're of course just in the process of welcoming all our feathered friends back from a sunny holiday in the south, we hope that most of them have mana ged to get by some of the heavy hunting pressure that they are under while they're in their sojourn to the south, that we don't anticipate any change in quotas, any change in the hunting patterns, harvest patterns at this particular time. Now that may well be refined should the season develop into another adverse season in terms of waterfowl production but that's the advice that my capable Director of Wildlife, Mr.

Richard Goulden, is now giving me. MR. ADAM: What are the greater concerns? The Mi nister mentioned that there were greater concerns in botulism that the department had in regard to waterfowl and I wonder if the Mi ni ster could 2622 elaborate on just what he meant by saying that the department had much greater concerns than the problem of botulism maybe on an isolated basis. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, they continue to be the same, the continual erosion of habitat possibly leading the list, however we, particularly in Canada here and in Manitoba, shouldn't overlook the fact that the wildlife waterfowl population also has to have a home, and has to have a reasonable amount of habitat in their southern staging grounds. It was my privilege shortly after becoming Minis ter of Natural Resources to atten d a symposium on waterfowl in New Orleans. It was my first occasion for me to be able to visit and see some of the winter staging grounds of the waterfowl in the State of Louisiana.

There is after all a correlation there. We sometimes tend I believe in Canada that as long as we keep the duck factory going in producing the ideal circumstances to maximize the production of waterfowl, unless there is an equal effort made down south. in the southern states and including Mexico, where the birds summer all that can be for naught Im prudent practices. di srespect for the need for habitat in the southern portions of the hemisphere can have, and there's reason to believe, very often severely limit the North American waterfowl flock as such.

So those are major concerns that I'm pleased to say the staff and the department is working co­ operatively with.

The department made, I believe, a relatively major initia tive at that sym posium in reminding our American friends that unless a serious effort is made at an item such as crop depredation, resistance to in creasing emphasis placed on waterfowl production here on the prairies is going to be increasing, particularly in those areas where man improves the habitat; the most notable example perhaps being the Oak Hammock Project where in a very successful way we have provided a staging ground for many thousands of geese and ducks.

But we have also brought them into ail area where the farmers. up to now, did not have a serious crop depredation problem and unless I can find, or the department, the government can find some way of adequ ately compensa ting farmers for crop depredation, public pressure will make it difficult to expend the kind of efforts. the kind of public dollars into the work that we would like to see go forward with respect to waterfowl management and waterfowl development. These are generally, Mr. Chairman. the kind of comments that I could add at this particular time. MR. ADAM: Yes.

In the symposium trip to New Orleans was there any representation there from Mexico? I'm wondering what are the regulations insofar as conservation and protection of waterfowl that migrate. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, just very briefly. It was an important mee ting. Both the Saskatchewan Minis ter and Alberta Minis ter were invited to attend and to give major add resses to the symposium. We dwelt principally on the question of crop depredation and its consequent difficulties that it presented to the Canadian and Provincial Governments. There was as well a representation there from the country of Mexico.

I'm advised that Mexico is really just

Thursday, 9 April, 1981 beginning to get into the necessary regulatory field of assuring the continued well-being of our wildfowl flocks. By and large, the control or better put, the lack of control, is having its effect in countries like Mexico and even I would say some of the southern states. That's a political problem for me and for any government here on the prairies.

We have, by and large, through the efforts of the department, through the extension efforts of the department have by and large educated most of our citizens to accept the responsibility of limiting themselves to the bags that they can shoot, accepting the fact of limited seasons and yet by the very nature of the bird itself and geography, we have some of our species leave the Canadian prairies after having been bred and born here and we have provided a habitat for them. Some species we get little or no opportunity to harvest.

The mallard is probably the only species that we get a reasonable harvest from upwards to 18-20 percent; 90 percent of the birds that we raise on the Canadian prairies are harvested by Americans. My message to the Americans was simply, look, we're prepared to do our job, we're prepared to tax our people to some extent to enhance and maintain this desirable wildlife resource but don't expect us to do it entirely out of our well-intentioned thoughts with respect to this wildlife resource.

If I were to make the decision of simply ensuring that enough ducks were available for Manitoba hunters or enough geese were available for Manitoba hunters, my attitude towards the allocation of funds, the allocation of habitat would be entirely different than what it is today. No, we accept the global or the continental responsibility that geography has placed the Canadian prairies in a position that we are stewards of that resource.

By and large, I would have to say from the very marginal contact that I have had with the American hunters or the American associations, the Mexican people in this sense, that we are by far and large the leaders in this field.

The activities of organizations such as Ducks Unlim ited and others, and their interest in preservi ng and helping us to preserve wildlife habitat on the prairies, is largely because they've lost that opportunity; they didn't pay enough attention to that 30, 40, 50 years ago in many areas, particularly of the northern states that used to produce and provide habitat for a considerably higher percentage of the North American flock.

So I think that's something we can be reasonably proud of, that we accept that responsibility, but I think we have to take the time and tell particularly our American friends and our Mexican friends that this is a North American resource that we're involved with and that there should be a sharing to perhaps a somewhat larger extent of the respon sibiliti es of keeping that resource healthy. The fact that the genetics of the bird and our geography is such that we will continue to be the factory, the breeding grounds for these birds, places a particular responsibility on us. MR. ADAM: I thank the Minister.

It's encouraging to hear that the Mexican Government will be doing some management and. control of limits I hope, similar to ours. I understand that the department is considering allowing hunting by owners of priv ate land perhaps without a licence, is this correct? MR. ENNS: Pardon me, I'm sorry. MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe the Member for Ste. Rose will repeat the question. MR. ADAM: Yes, I think I'll repeat it. The Minister was getting some advice from his staff.

Is it correct that the department is considering to allo w landowners to hunt on their own land without a licence or is that for waterfowl, the high land game? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, you mean out of season? MR. ADAM: No, no, in season. Is there any suggestion in that regard? MR. EN NS: Mr . Chairman, I'm not qu ite sure whether I understand the member's question. There are special areas, for instance, elk hunting where landowners have - the advice that I'm getting is that they can hunt on their own land, they don't necessarily have to go through the draw but they have to get a licence, of course. MR.

ADAM: For what birds now? MR. ENNS: No, this is now big game, elk, on their own. MR. ADAM: I'm talking about waterfowl, migratory birds. MR. ENNS: No such thing. MR. ADAM: There's no such plan to go in onto that. The whooping cranes have made a remarkable recovery, are we involved in Ma nitoba in th at regard? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the Interlake is being considered as a possible area for re-establishing breed ing, nesting grounds for the whooping crane but no specific decision has been made. MR.

ADAM: Are we involved in Northern Manitoba anywhere in collect ing eggs, or moni toring, or keeping track of any in Manitoba? MR. ENNS: I'm advised that they are not nesting anywhere in Manitoba at this time so there is no program, no activity that we're involved in. MR. ADAM: How is the Turkey Program? Is that successful? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I think every once in a while we do turn the clock back somewhat and recoup, and the Wild Turkey Program is one of those. We've been able to expand the hunting area to the St. Malo district of Manitoba. It's still a very limited hunt and run on the draw system.

I know of one particular member of the Legislature who was fortunate enough to draw on a hunt. I know that he may not necessar ily want to be identified but I assure him that it went through all the appropriate procedures and, Mr. Chairman, he actually shot a bird; he actually got a turkey. MR. ADAM: I say that is not considered to be a conflict of interest to get in1o the turkey hunt. 2623

Thursday, 9 April, 1981 MR. ENNS: Unless he had attached a particular wad of Wrigley's gum to his application and it got stuck on somebody's finger before it was drawn out of the drum. MR. CHAIRMAN: 9.(b)(2) - pass; 9.(b)(3) pass; 9.(b)(4) - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. HA RVEY BOSTROM: Whil e we're on this section, I note the Minister has identified one area of

part icular concern with respect to wildli fe in Ma nit oba and that's habitat erosion, habitat maintenance and habitat enhancement wherever possible. I'm wondering what his particular feelings are in this area. I have confidence that the staff members involved with wildlife will be promoting this part of the problem and will be pushing the government to develop habitat wherever possible and to protect it wherever its under thr eat of erosion and will be pushing the government to bring in measures to enha nce the hab itat wherever they can.

I'm wonderi ng, in view of the Min ister's personal preferences perhaps for the farm community, I wonder if he has any considerations in this area and what are his feelings towards the habitat problem and its effect on wildlife. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, insofar as the honourable member draws to the members of the committee's attention that my preference may be with the farm community and, of course, I have a very personal interest in the farm community, but let me equally assure him that three-quarters of my farm operation lies entirely within the game preserve and I have always found it to be a joy to have my farm in a game preserve and absolutely no detriment to the compatibility of both.

I would have to say, and I don't have any illusions about whether I will be successful or not or whether I and the department can be successful during the period that I have the privilege of being the Minister of this department, but it would seem to me that if there was one thing that I would like to accomplish, and I know the department is charged with th at respo nsib ility and has been working in that direction, and that is to make a meaningful move in encouraging the maintenance of wildlife habitat on private land.

The member will be aware that we have that kind of control with respect to Crown lands, whether land clearing takes place or does not take place, or if it takes place under certain controlled circumstances and conditions which the combination of which can enhance the property. I personally have cleared a quarter

section of Crown land but left some 30 acres, 35 acres of brush and bush standing and the combination of some tame alfalfa with wild brush I, without a biologist degree, happen to know that that has enhanced the quarter

section from a wildlife point of view. That kind of control is available to government, has been available to government for some number of years now with respect to Crown lands, as it always was I suppose, but to be able to extend that to the privately held lands is I think a particular challenge that I am prepared to undertake.

I happen to believe that it needs to be accompanied, it can only succeed if there is some suitable inducement, some incentive on the part of the owner of that land, not to drain that last slew, not to knock down that last brush cover on his land and at the same time unde rstand the taxation pressures that are on any farmer, his only recourse being to attempt to maximize production on every acre of land that he has in his ownership.

So it would seem to me that there needs to be some effort made and this is the direction that the department is going, that some co-ordination with Municip al Affairs, some recognition through the taxation system that would act in fact as an incentive to the individual landowner to maintain wildlife habitat on his private holdings. Now, that's an ambition, that's a goal. I would like to have a crack at trying to accomplish it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 9(b). The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman, back in '79 there was a summa ry report prepared for the Whit emud Watershed Conservation District which proposed to develop the grassy marsh and develop the habitat for furs and migratory birds and fish as well into, I believe the report said here it was estimated that the use of the Chand ler Cell for fish rearing would more than double ann ual walleye catches on Lake Manitoba resulting in increased commercial and sport fishing benefitting some 275,000 annually. I wonder if the Minis ter could advise us whether that has been shelved or whether there has been any opposition to the program.

I understand that in that particular area and I'm not sure whether it's involved with this proposal but I understand that the province or the watershed is involved in legal battles or court cases. I'm not sure whether they've been resolved yet but maybe the Minister could bring us up-to-date on those subject matters. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'm cognizant of the fact that the Member from Gladstone is present at the committee and I have to caution myself in what I have to say at this particular time and I would take this occasion to invite the Member from Gladstone to make some comments.

I'd just indicate to him that the matter comes more appropriately under Water Resources, General Planning, which is an item that we dealt with, but ah, the Member has caught me again I'm trying to cop out. MR. ADAM: Yes, I brought the item in, I realize that it may be flood control, or I don't know what the proposal is but I brought it in under the aegis of Wildlife Habitat in order to get some information, the latest information. I am not supporting it or opposing it, I'm just trying to get more information on the project and whether or not there are any problems in regard to this project.

I know there has been some problems in other areas in regard to flooding in that area, I believe. I hope the Min ister or his assistants could help us in that regard. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I can only further advise the honourable member that there is currently the matter before the courts in regard to this overall situation and it would be ill-advisable on my part to make any further comments on the matter at this time. MR. CHA IRMAN: The Member for Gladstone, I believe signalled. MR. JAMES R. FERGU SON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, this would be to do with what Mr. Adam 2624

Thursday, 9 April, 1981 was talking about. There was a proposal there involving the purch ase of about 50,000 acres of agricultural land developing various cells; one was for fish, I guess three were for wildlife management, that proposal didn't meet with approval. It was rejected, quit e violently as a matter of fact. I attended a couple of meetings where there was considerable discussion and it was shelved. The present proposal, and the Minis ter I'm sure is quite of aware of that, would be to build a channel from Woodside across to the lake. That was the outcome of the meetings that we had at that time.

The other progam was shelved. MR. CH AI RMAN: 9(4) - pass; 9(c)( 1) - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, the court case has nothing to do with this, it has some other problem? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I would have to take that general question as notice and agree to supply the member with some additional information at some other time. MR. ADAM: That information is not available at the moment. I see. MR. CHAIRMAN: 9.(c)( 1) - pass; 9.(c)(2) - pass; 9.(d)(1) - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Just on Habitat Management, I wonder if the Min ister could indicate if there are any particular problems with any species of wildlife at the present time, such as we experienced several years ago with respect to the deer herd. I wonder if there are any species that the department has identified as having any particular problem at the present time and if so, are there any efforts being made to deal with the problem? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised by the Wildlife Director that the one possible area that is causing the department some concern is in the overall moose population in the province, but mother nature works in its own way. He also advises me that when the next generation of young saplings start to bounce up form some of the severely hit forest fire areas, that may well help in terms of correcting the situation and reversing a concern that we now have about the overall moose population. He does not draw any other specific area to my attention at this time. That's about all I can say, Mr. Chairman. MR.

BOSTROM: I wonder if the Minister would have any information on the caribou herd which is located on the east side of Lake Winnipeg. I think a portion of the herd, if not the entire herd, was wiped out by a forest fire. I'm speaking of the one which tended to travel back and forth between the Nopiming Park area and the Wallace Lake area. MR. ENNS: Caribou is of a very serious concern to wildlife managers generally. They migr ate considerably of course and move in and out of our jurisdiction. The several bigger herds that are located princip ally I guess in · Saskatchewan and the Northwest Territories.

They come in there. They have been the subject matter of discussion at ministerial and wildlife conferences. There is some very serious concern about the maintenance of these herds. The herd that the honourable member mentions east of Lake Win nipeg is a relatively small one. We're concerned about it but I can't give him any further information at this time as to depredation of the herd to the extent of the losses that have arisen in the last year as a result of the fires that he mentions. MR.

BOSTROM: I wonder if the Min ister could take that question as notice and perhaps provide me with some written information. I un derstand the department would probably be looking at in terms of aerial surveys and that sort of thing and when they do have some better information, I'd like it. MR. ENNS: I'm happy to take that as notice and there are staff members making a note of that. We'll endeavour to provide the member with more detailed information when it's available. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 9.(d)( 1) - pass; 9.(d)(2) - 9.(e)(1) - pass; 9 .(e)(2) - pass; 9.(e)(3) 9. (f)(1) - pass; 9. (f)(2) - pass; 9.(g)( 1) - 9.(g)(2) - the Member for Rupertsland. pass; pass; pass; MR. BOSTROM: Before we pass this

section perhaps the Minis ter could indicate what are the objectives of this Northern Development Agreement - Community Wildlife Management. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, the general objectives are to develop management strategies for the barren ground caribou, woodland caribou and polar bear resources in Northern Manitoba in consultation of course with the local people; to identify alternate uses of wildl ife resou rces and to assist and encourage in their development with and for the benefit of the local residents; to provide extension services for the pu rposes of making northern residents more aware of the wildlife resources and management of these; to develop a management plan for the Cape Churchill Wildlife Management area with the assistance of the local advisory committee - tha t is a relatively new wildlife management area and we are going through the birth stages of bringing in local advisory committees to assist us in the management of that area - to train and upgrade the guiding skills of local northern residents to enable them to meet the needs of . tourists, etc.

Some .of the actual hard dollars of the program will go into I suppose what my colleague, the Minis ter of Labour and Man power would call training programs. Some specific programs that are being undertaken at this time under this agreement is the Polar Bear Project which consists of the management research and depredation components. A depredation program in Churchill was completed without incident. We are monitoring the woodland caribou in the Cape Churchill herd. A draft management plan was completed for the Cape Churchill Wild li fe Management area incorporating provincial, regional and local concerns.

Through the Guide Training Program, courses were offered to local northern residents in Cranberry Portage and Thomps on. Some major areas of concern relative to this part of the program is, we're undergoing population surveys that were done in 2625

Thursday, 9 April, 1981 1980 tQ indicate that the Beverley and Kaminuriak herds continue to decline at an alarming rate. As I mentioned earlier those are the principle herds that touch us from time to time and are of a very substantial concern to wildlife interests, not just in Manitoba but across Canada. We are particularly concerned about the unusually large harvest that took place in No rthern Saskatchewan in '79-80 which received some national and international publicity.

Community consultation continued to be an integral part of Manitoba's program and is highligh ted by the hir ing of communit y representatives and a series of meetings by the Minister in these communities. We've had a meeting of provincial, territorial and federal Mi nisters that recognize the seriousness of this situation and outline steps to be taken immediately. Again this is relative to the concerns about the caribou herds. Further under the Northern Program, and this is actually part of the Northern Flood Agreement, we have Wildli fe Advisory and Planning Board.

This board is only now starting to add ress problems which fall under its term of reference. The board consists of representatives from Cross Lake, Split Lake. Norway House. Nelson House, York Landing, Thomps on Fish and Wil dlife Associ atio n, the Manitoba Metis Federation and the Norman Development Corporation. The department has some designated advisors on that board as well. We anticipate that major wildlife issues will resolve around trapping and big game. Again, dealing with the Cape Churchill Wildlife Management area, local residents have at times questioned what will be done in this area.

A draft management plan has been prepared and will be reviewed by and discussed with them and the local advisory committee. The plan is pretty well in a state of readiness within the department but it has yet to be exposed or we will be taking it out to the local advisory board for feedback and consultation with respect to carrying out some specific policy objectives. MR. BOSTROM: Just with respect to that Churchill Wild life Management area, Mr. Chairman, my colleague the MLA for Churchill did have a special interest in this and wanted to be here tonight to question the Minister on it.

So I wonder if he could give us as much detail as he could in writing on that. I note that he has a draft Wildlife Management Plan, and if he could give us some indication of what principles are being discussed in the plan; if it were possible for him to provide us with a copy of the plan I suppose that would be the best, but if that has not yet been discussed with the community perhaps it"s not available for the public yet. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, we have no reason not to provide, certainly the honourable member, and

part icularly the MLA for the area and the constituency, with a copy of the proposed plan. I would want to put on the record though, that this is the draft plan as proposed by the deparment. It is now being circulated and sent to the northern area. In fact my understanding is, it"s out there now. We have received no formal replies or comments to date from the advisory committee, although minutes of the committee meetings received in March indicate 2626 that there is general approval in principle.

I will again undertake, with the assistance of staff, to make sure tha t the Honourable Member for Churchill · in particular and the Member for Rupertsland receive copies of the dr aft proposals for the Wild life Management area in Churchill. MR. CHAIRMAN: 9.(g)(3) - pass; 9.(h)(1) - pass; 9.(h) (2) - pass; 9.(h) (3) - th e Mem ber for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Just on this, Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister could outline briefly what the program involves for this fiscal year he's asking for. MR.

ENNS: Well, particularly on activities that are being undertaken in the Wild Fur Management Development Program is the organization, administration and evaluation of trapping seasons; monitorin g of fur-bearer populations in special trapping areas; development of new fur policy and regulations concerning the fur industry; design of an automated system for stori ng, han dlin g and retrieving for fur harvest statistics; coordination of all trapping-oriented programs; communication with the Man itoba Trappers ' Association and local fur councils and tribal councils on all matters related to trapping; and continuation of the laboratory and mechanical testing of new trapping devices.

As I indicated to the honourable member earlier, we have particular work being carried out on an experimental trapline system to field-test new humane traps, and of course the extension work, the public education work for promotion of new and hu mane trapping techn iques. Issues of specific concern are the fox and coyote population in agro­ Manitoba. Over the past years several complaints have been received by the department concerning the status of fox and coyote populations in Southern Manitoba.

The concern is in response to the heavy hunting and trapping pressure these species have experienced as a result of higher fur prices. In response to this concern the following measures were implemented: 198 0-81 trapping season on coloured fox and coyotes was reduced by six weeks. These species are now classified as fur-bearers under The Wildlife Act, see Automation of the Fur Harvest stats for 1981; and implementation of a fox anq coyote population morritpring system. I think, Mr.

Chairman, I've perhaps covered some of this other information when we earlier had a discussion on the general question of the fur industry and trapping, and I sense I'm repeating myself to some extent here. MR. BOSTROM: One area of conce rn, Mr. Chairman, is the marketing of furs and it's something which I was investigating personally at one point during the year. It appears that the availability of marketing furs through the auction outlets is not common knowledge, or does not appear to be commonly available to trappers.

Many of the more experienced trappers are fully aware of the avai labili ty of marketing through the auction where they get the best price and minimal cost to them. There's a selling fee of course, but they receive essentially the majority of the market price of their fur if they put it

Thursday, 9 April, 1981 on the auction sale, which occurs several times a year. One of the problems of course which they face in doing that, is that they have to wait for their money. Rather than wait tor their money, many of them are encouraged to go to the local Bay Store in a northern community and sell their fur for perhaps half or less of what it would normally return to them if they put it on the auction sales.

While we were in government we had, in an attempt to overcome that problem, tried to establish or proposed to establish fur depots in various communities around the north, where the trappers could receive a portion of their money in advance. The furs would then be forwarded to the auction at which time the advance would be taken off and the trapper would receive the remainder of the funds.

Now the Huds on's Bay Company I believe, in response to the information that the government was planning to establish these depots, came out with a pretty good offer, I thought and that was that they would do essentialy the same thing through their Bay Stores. In other words, they would offer this service to the trappers. They would take the fur, provide the trapper with some advance and undertake to put his fur on the auction, and when his fur was sold he would receive the remainder of his money.

Now it appears that while The Bay made this offer at the time that we were proposing the fur depots, they did not make it commonly known and I suppose there is some good reason for that. I know in talking with Hudson's Bay officials in this last year when I was investigating it, they did indicate to me that this service was still available but trappers were not all availing themselves of it for good reason, because I think when trappers did come into the Bay Stores with their furs. they were encouraged by the local Bay manager to dispose of them immediately for cash rather than put them through the system.

So I would Sllggest to the government that one very important service they could provide to the trappers is to get this message out and to put The Bay on the spot, so to speak, to ensure that they are making that service generally availabl e to all trappers. I think it's a very good system and it's one that's good for the trappers and good for The Bay.

It's one which the trappers could very easily take advantage of, and all they have to do is demand the service of The Bay and I'm sure they would provide it because of the written offer which they made and which they confirmed to me in a verbal discussion with them in this last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: 9.(h) (4) - the Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: I jus t want to acknowledge the member's concern. We acknowledge that he's by and large. describing the situation accurately as it exists in the field.

The department advises me that we have very much included this aspect of the marketing of furs in our ongoing Extension Training Program with trappers. We acknowledge it's perhaps not meeting with the level of success that we'd like to see. My further observation would be that it also would be a particularly worthwhile objective of the official Trappers' Association to be part of. It is after all, in 2627 the individual trapper's interest to do that.

I thank the honourable member for his information with respect to the Hu dson 's Bay offer; I was not personally aware of that and I tend to agree with him that unless pressed, unless there's some continual pressure to make it happen, it won't happen. It's too easy and perhaps profitable to do otherwise. But certainly that mechanism of marketing should be extended to the widest possible degree, to maximize again, and to meet very much what is a fundamental departmental objective here, and that is to maximize return to the trapper. MR. CHAIRMAN: 9.(h)(4) - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR.

ADAM: Yes, I just want to ask the Minister about the wolf, how they're faring? It seems to me that I was looking through the report here yesterday on -(Interjection)- does somebody want to speak over there? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair hasn't recogn ized anybody over there. MR. ADAM: No, I noticed there wasn't too many royalties, 300 or something, 300 wolves for the entire province. That seems to me quite low in view of the fact that the pelt is quite high. It's a very valuable pelt. Is this species endangered to that extent? MR. ENNS: I'm advised that the wolves are in a very healthy state in Manitoba.

They are difficult to trap and that perhaps accounts for the low level of royalties, but they are not on the endangered species list by any chance. MR. ADAM: Is that a normal catch for the province, 300 and some animals? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, to be accurate we would have to go back through the records. I can only indcate to the honourable member what staff has advised me, that wolves are in bountiful supply apparently.

The Minister of Agriculture may have some other comments to make about what the wolves are doing to some of his calves, particularly up in Steve Lake community pasture and through such other areas where they've taken bountiful harvests of some of his beef. MR. CHAIRMAN: 9.(j) - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: I wonder if the Minister could advise, I believe the damage per acre has been increased. Is that correct? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, just very briefly, we are hopeful firstly, of sig ning for the first time an extended agreement. Up to now, the agreements have been signed on an annual or yearly basis.

We are currently under negotiations to sign a five-year agreement, cost-sharing agreement with the Federal Government with respect to water fowl damage and we have increased the compensation paid to a maximum of $50.00 per acre. This is an increase from $35.00. Blackbirds, Mr. Chairman, are still not on the list. MR. CHAIRMAN: 9.(j) - pass.

Thursday, 9 April, 1981

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,96 1 ,400 for Natu ral Resources - pass. 10(a)(1) - pass - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: I wonder if the Minister could give us an overview of what's happening in Surv eys and Mapping. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, under the direction of Mr.

Hammerling, the objectives here are to direct and administer the Surveys and Mapping Branch programs; to provide the necessary support to branch sections; to provide expertise on legal land descriptions. real property procedures and related matters; to maintain and monitor all Ma nitoba geographical names.

Some specific activities that are undertaken by this division is to co-ordinate and prepare the Branch budget and maintain Branch financial systems; prepare personnel documentation; provide secret arial services; provide studies, recommendations and legal desc ripti ons for conveyances, leases and permits of Crown land and mines and minerals; participation in the toponymic research resulting in approval of 500 to 1, 000 names annually; maintain up-to-date card files and supplementary name location maps; publish the Annual Directory, Manitoba Geographical Names; and to process requestd for commemor ative geographical names, certificates.

That generally describes the activities of this division. This is Mr. Crandall is it, not Mr. Robertson, who is away on vacation, the Director. MR. DEP UTY CHAIRMAN, Bob Anderson (S pringfield): The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: What new programs are being undertaken this year outside of what the Minister has indicated? Are there any other programs underway this year? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member will appreciate that this is a kind of division that carries on with the kind of general responsibilities and work that they are responsible for.

The particular area of concern in this division is the state of affairs with depredation, if I could use that term, of too many of our markers, monuments, surveys that were taken many many years ago and we have started this year a program of restoration in the general survey area. I won't say that it's at the level that perhaps I would like to see it at. It's becoming a bigger and bigger problem. Modern agricultural practices, bigger equipment have destroyed, obliterated many of the original survey mounds and markers.

It's my hope with the co-operation of the Attorney-General that he will assist us in providing, and I know he has at the same time provided some additional funding in this area to help us in the restoration of survey markers for the purp ose of making it easier in the legal description, the conveyance of titles, etc., when land purchases, land transfers are taking place. In some instances the su rvey costs as a result of the destruction of the monuments are becoming really unacceptably high.

That situation is caused because a surveyor, when taking on an assignment today, very often has to go back many miles to find the appropriate markers from which he can then trace 2628 back and provide the necessary survey information, legal description that is required for legal conveyance of land titles. So that is a priority, if you like, a direction of the department that we hope we will be paying more attention to in providing more funds for. MR. ADAM: I wonder if the Minister could advise what is the scope of the township surveys? I guess it's on the township basis I would think.

How many townships are going to be resurveyed, redone, on a year basis or is there any . . . ? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the present level of funds would make it possible. As I indicated it's a relatively modest program, not much more than one, one-and­ a-half townships in any given year that can be resurveyed. MR. ADAM: The department wouldn't have staff to that again. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I can indicate to the honourable member that there are a lot of surveyors not within Government Services that are looking for work and we would be using both the resources of the staff as well as contracting out the kind of work that is done here. This is the kind of work that the legal surveyor in the private sector can do and they have had some lean years in the last few years and the government has been particularly hard pressed to find some additional work for them. MR. ADAM: I wonder what is the pol icy for allocation or tendering for surveying jobs from the private sector. What is the policy?

I don't mind telling the Min ister that I have been receiving complaints for the last th ree years in this regard. For instance, the 19 80 Throne Speech particularly mentions that it's going to be Manitoba first for any economic activity in the province. Last year I brought it to the attention of the then Minister. In regard to surveying outfits in my constituency, one I believe from Alberta, surveying in the constituency of Ste. Rose and another from Yorkton, Saskatchewan and on making some investigation I find that area surveyors are not even given an opportunity to bid.

I do n't think that local surveyors would object whatsoever if there is any outside surveyors coming in to do the job. I don't think there would be no objection whatsoever providing that they have an opportun ity to bid, providing they have an opportunrty to tender on a job, and it seems to me that this is why I'm raising the question. There have been some complaints that have come to my attention and again I repeat that as far as the township surveys are concerned that it's going to be done.

I understand that there is only a few surveying outfits that are advised to tender, are notified to tender on these jobs to the exclusions of all others. I don't think that this is fair. Now on the work that was done in the Ste. Rose constituency last year was on drainage. It was in the drainage area and in talking to some of surveyors in the province enquir ing whether they had an opportunity to bid on those jobs and I'm told that they were not, that they were not advised. So I would like to have the Minister tell us what is the reason for that kind of tendering. As I said before I'm sure that

Thursday, 9 April, 1981 no Manitoba surveyor will object if he doesn't get a contract. He has only himself to blame if he can't compete on the tendering system but surely every surveyor should be given an opportunity. MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman, I think part of the problem is that we use the word "survey" rather loosely and it encompasses many different types of work. The legal land survey that we talk about when we're re-establishing markers, when we're doing survey work for the conveyance of title, is work that the private land surveyors are well suited to and are used and are employed.

If we're talking about the kind of surveying that is required for various different engineering projects within, say, the department in its Water Management Water Resources Branch, that can very often mean quite a different kind of surveying activity, one that is not particularly suitable for contract ing out in which cases usually departmental staff is used.

There is another, I think the particular question or perhaps without having mentioned the name, the particular surveyor that the honourable member is concerned about as to not having opportunity to get gover nment work, that involves mapping and drawing the topographic for the features for devel opment of different kind of maps that the department requires from time to time. That happens to become a relatively special ized area of work where it may wel l be possible that Alberta or Saskatchewan firms get involved.

But I want to assure the honourable memb er that in terms of straight surveying work all private surveying firms are invited to tender. They don't all tender at the same time; there is a rotational system that is used. This is by agreement and understanding with the surveyors. A particular job comes up and three-four firms are asked to submit tender to it and if they do, they then drop to the bottom of the roster and another three or four will be asked to submit tenders. There is no exclusion of any particular firm or firms from an opportunity to tender on government work.

Now I' ve asked the department specifically because I am aware and I've received the same repres entations that the honourable member has received about the concern for lack of work by the surveyors in the private sector. I'v e asked the different directors within the department to examine their requirements and where applicable to consider the contracting out of certain surveying work and I'm satisfied that is being done. But I want to assure the honourable member that there is not a closed list, if you like.

I think the honourable member said only two or three, or one or two firms have an opportunity to bid on government survey work. That simply isn't the fact and I must also put on the record on this occasion that this past year government funding for private surveying work was considerably higher than it has been in the past number of years despite the kind of representation that we have heard. I can give the honourable member some particular information. We have a backlog of surveys, some 42 contracts were awarded on this program at a value of $1 1 5,0 00.00.

Throughout the year general increases developed in municipal ities requesting survey assistance because of the loss of survey monuments defining legal property boundaries. I want to again just rem ind the honourable memb er that while it is true that we maintain 2629 substantial in-house survey staff, but certainly it is my dir ection to the department to utilize where possible and where the job lends itself to the utilization of outside surveyors; that is certainly the policy of this government. MR. ADAM: Yes, Mr.

Chai rman, I find it very peculiar to listen to the Minister tell us that there is a lack of surveying jobs in the province and he has had those same complaints as I have had. Then I brought to the attention of the Minister last year, his predecessor, about two outfits that I was aware of; one from Alb erta and one from Yorkton, Sask atchewan, ordinary surveying jobs of drainage, which anybody can do, any surveyor, and Manitoba surveyors were not, some of them were asked to tender but not too many.

I find it odd when we have an economic decline in the province; architects leavi ng and a lot of skill ed people leaving the province and we find surveying outfits from other provinces coming in and doing the work. I find that very difficult to believe and of course surveyors have told me, we're not saying that they should not come in because we have a lot of Manitoba surveyors that can bid on Saskatchewan jobs and Alberta jobs if they happen to hold the licences, but they want to have a chance to bid, that's all they're asking for, to see if they can compete.

I would suggest to you that it seems to me that a local surveyor would be able to compete with any outside surveying companies, particularly that have to come all the way from Alberta or wherever they come from. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, we'll have to agree to disagree. I am continuing to be advised that with the exception of mapping and the surveying that is involved with that where we do go out across the country for tender, other surveying work that is contracted out is avail able to Ma nitoba land surveyors in all instances.

Now, I must note the honourable member, that when I say to Manitoba land surveyors, that doesn't mean that all 14, or 15, or 18 that are active in Manitoba are invited to bid on each and every individual job. There is a rotational order, three or four are asked to bid as the jobs come up; but I'm advised that rotational order is in effect, and in the course of the work that is available all Ma nitoba su rveyor firms, land surveyor firms, have an opportunity to bid on this work. It's simply not correct to place on the record, Mr. Chairman, as the Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose is doing, that we are prohibiting Manitoba land surveyors from bidding on work to be done here in Manitoba to the exclusion of Alberta or other non­ Manitoban firms. I would invite the honourable member to, it's rather pointless if we disagree, but I would certainly invite him to provide me with the specifics of a situation in terms of specific work, the nature of the work, and names, and I would certainly undertake to investigate that.on behalf of the honourable member. MR. ADAM: Mr .

Chairman, I raise this subject matter because there have been some complaints and we have my comments on the record and we have the Minister's response on the record and we shall now make this available to those surveyors in the province who are interested in our comments

Thursday, 9 April, 1981 here tonight and let them give us some reaction to my comments and to the Minister's comments. If they are not satisfied, well then we will hear about it next year, Mr. Speaker. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 10(a)(1) - pass - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Mi nister could indicate what progress has been made on the survey the department carries out for severance lines with respect to Hydro developments around Lake Winnipeg and the northern rivers that are affected by Hydro development?

For the Minister's information this is an ongoing program to develop maps, and in fact to show in the community where the severance line is which indicates the barrier between the area that Hydro is allowed to utilize as a flood plain and that which is considered available to the community for development. Some of the commun ities have been held back from development because their severance lines have not been marked out for their commu nities yet. So, I'd ask him what progress has been made; what communities have been done; and which ones are to be done and what is the time-frame for the ones that are remaining?

He doesn't necessarily have to give me this information tonight. I don't expect him to have it at his fingertips but if you could take it as notice and provide me with a list of the ones that have been done, the ones that are in progress for this year, the ones that are planned for the next few years if he could indicate when they expect to have all of the severance line work completed. MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, in a general way I can indicate to the honourable member the procedure that takes place here; that the department is involved in the mapping, in providing the mapping information which then is forwarded to the Hydro and Water Resource engineers to actually use that information to establish the severance lines. The mapping has been completed, from our point of view, for the communities of Norway House, Cross Lake, York Landing, Split Lake and Nelson House.

We may then have some further refinements to that when the engineers apply their hydrological input into where actually, on th e basis of the mappin g information that we have provided, where the lines will be drawn. I will refer to staff if they are aware of any particular date, I imagine what the member is really interested in is when those actual severance lines will be drawn, that's where it gets to mean something to people in terms of their plans.

I'm advised that a number of these reports have already been completed and are now circulating in some of the communities but I will accept the honourable member's offer once again, perhaps I could ask staff to make note of that to provide the Member for Rupertsland with an update as of today, or as of now and some projection as to when these lines can be completed. I take it that we're principally interested in those communities that come under the aegis of the Northern Flood Agreement. MR. BOSTOM: Not only those, Mr.

Chairman, because I think possibly all of the communit ies 2630 around Lake Winnipeg, one way or another are affected by this because Lake Winnip eg is considered to be a storage basin as well and I believe that there are severance lines to be marked out for those communities. So, I think we're looking at the entire Nelson River Watershed that's affected by the Hydro developments. So, I would appreciate it if they could provide that information for us on the progress that's been made and what the planned progress is to complete the entire job. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I am happy to undertake to provide as much information on this subject as we can. I would also take this opportunity to invite the honourable member to, himself if he wishes to attend, to visit the survey office where our staff would be more than happy to graphically ind icate to him what progr ess is being made, particularly in the communi ties that he has a specific interest in. MR. CHAIRMAN: 10(a)(1) - the Member from Ste. Rose. MR.

ADAM: Yes, I wonder, before we leave this, if I could ask the Minister to advise - I'm looking at the report under Legal Su rveys, and it indicates 80 surveys as requested by Branches of Department of Northern Affairs and Natural Resources - request for surv eys above the norma l workload were contracted to private surveyors. I wonder if the Minister could give us the breakdown of how many were done by department surveyors and how many projects were contracted out? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, that information will be difficult for me to provide for the honour able member at the moment but we can certainly make an effort to find that for him. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, that would be satisfactory. The Minister has undertaken to provide me with other information. I wonder if we could, on the jobs that were contracted out, I wonder if we could have a list of who were requested to tender on the private contracts? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, that comes very close to bordering on the normal and acceptable request for Add ress for Papers, which the honourable member could make in the House; but again, Mr.

Chairman, I will imp ose on staff to make a note of the honourable member's request and draw up a list. I'm presuming he's asking it, say for the year past or for the current year, or for the period covering the Annual Report that ended March 31, 1980. Yes, we can undertake to make that information available to the honourable member and I'll make sure that he has it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 10 was read and passed.

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2, 558,000 for Natural Resources - pass. 11 (a)(1). The Member from Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: At some point in the Estimates, Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicated that he would be passing out to the members the Water Resources

Thursday, 9 April, 1981 Program for the year, in fact if my memory serves me correctly, the Minister indicated that they would have it ready by Wednesday. I wonder if he can indicate if he can provide that to members at this time. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, as I indicated to the honourable mem ber at that time that is usually traditionally passed out on Resolution 13, the last and final resolution, other than the Minister's Salary, Acquisitio n/Construction of Physical Assets.

I acknowledge that I indicated to the honourable member that information would be available today, or even yesterday afternoon I believe, however I don't have it. It will be available later on tonight but I don't think we want to sit that long. I'm wondering whether or not members of the committee are amenable to dealing with the Eng inee ring and Construction Division, as such, which is essentially the Regional Services in the various areas. I appreciate, Mr.

Chairman, that the members would like to probably discuss that in context with the up and coming drainage program and I find myself sympathetic to that view and perhaps, Mr. Chairman, if I could solicit some ind ication from honourable members that we would deal with the Acquisitio n and Construction along with th e Engineering and Construction Program as one. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, we're certainly prepared to proceed with the rest of the Estimates up to that point of No. 13, Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets.

We really have very few questions remaining for Sections 11 and 12; 11, as the Minister indicated, Engineering and Construction. However, I suppose questions related to that could probably be addressed in Item 13 as well in terms of ... MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I appr eciate the co­ operative attitude that we've been able to work with in dealing with these Estimates. I would certainly give my undertaking that any ques tions relative to Resolutions 11 and 12 would be acceptable to me and I would have staff available to deal with them under Resolution 13.

If that's agreeable then I would suggest and recommend that we attempt to pass Resolutions 11 and 12 tonight and certainly accept any quest ions, any informat ion that honorable members wish to pose on 11 and 12 at this time. MR. ADAM: I'm just wondering before we proceed to the a's and b's and c's in different sections if the Minister could give us an overview, give us a report, a general overview of 11 and 12.

After all we're being asked to pass $17 million, if the Minister could give us an overview of these two items, general overview of what he has in his documents we could just pass them very very expeditiously. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, under the organization that we are currently operating under this, of course, is the division that in essence carries out the field work, engineering and actual construction for both the Division of Water Resources and now it also includes all activities of this nature in the Park system throughout the province.

It has contained in the Estimates the necessary funds to provide for the effective and efficient budgeting and accounting, payroll inventory, general administrative services. It 2631 provides for the design to prepare all contract plans and specifications required by the Resources Branches for capital works. This is the delivery end of the department for the various capital projects that have been earmarked for work to be carried out in both Parks, Water Resources, etc. The division of course operates out of a number of regions. We have how many regions in the province?

We have five regions with District Engineers who are responsible for doing the actual field work. I don't know what else I can ind icate to honourable members at this time. There has been a fairly complete melding or merging, if you like, of the different requests for this kind of activity to be carried out by this branch. I think that's traditional, the honourable members are more accustomed to or acquainted with the operation of this branch being more or less exclus ively involved with Water Resources, as such.

But they have now considerable expanded responsibility in terms of providing the necessary deliv ery programs as I mentioned for Parks, for Water Resources, for any other resource branch that requests specific works to be undertaken. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Inkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Chairman, looking at the item globally there appears to be, but it's only fictitious, a drop of $5 million in expenditures. But when you go through the item you see that the last item, there is a fire fighting drop of 6 million to 1 million.

So the entire $5 million and more is made up by the drop in the fire fighting, if you look at the bottom of Page 103 you'll see the item very clearly. If you look at your first figures you've got on the year '8 1, 15 .7 million; the year '82, 11 .9 million - it looks like you're saving all kinds of money. Then you look through the figures and you come to the last item, fire fighting, you go from 6 million to 1 million. So the entire $5 million and more is in that item. Now that item reminds me of the snow clearing item at Metro. You put in an item and then you spend what you spend.

My hope is that of course you'll stay within that 1 million. If the drought conditions are the same this year, and they are thus far I would think as bad or worse although I'm not wanting to over­ dramatize, then what we know about that item 1 gather is that it becomes an actual item, it doesn't become an item of Estimates and Budget. There are certain items that are not really budgeted items. They are items that you spend what you have to spend.

I repeat the Snow Clearing Budget of the City of Winnipeg this year will be embarrassi ngly low, as a matter of fact they probably did certain things just to do something, but it's offset by the fire fighting budget that the province will have.

Am I right in saying that if we're so unfortunate, and I don't wish the Minister or the rest of the people of the province any misfortune, but if we're so unfortunate as to have similar drought conditions and fire problems then your item will go back to where it was and there will have to be Sup plementary Supply or a Warrant for $5 million if we have the same experience as we had last year. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I don't dispute what the honourable member is saying. The figure of 6, or bordering close on $7 million here, there was likely a

Thursday, 9 April, 1981 similar figure in the last time and a Supplementary figure of $5 million was added to that; we have carried on in the same manner. In this instance we have no idea what the figure will be. I share the honourable member's concern that reality is reality and th at it's going to be conside rably higher, particularly if the year progresses as it does. I'm advised that the honourable member, who was a former Mi nister of the branch, will perhaps recall that for years just a nominal figure was put in there; for years the figure was $.5 million, $500,000.00.

In the last two years or last year we have bumped that figure up, still as experience has unfortunately shown us. in a nominal way to a $1 million. But it is a figure that will be undoub tedly sup plemented by Sup plementary Supply, by Special Vote if we're sitting or by Special Warrant as the year progresses. MR. GREEN: Yes. Mr. Chairman. Then it might be even a little worse than I thought in terms of getting an actual financial picture.

I gather that what the Minis ter is telling me is that he didn't spend 6.7 million on fire fighting last year he spent 11 .7 million; that there was another $5 million in a Warrant. And that if our experience this year is the same as last year, then we're not going to add $5 million to this item. we're going to add 10 million and then, instead of showing a $5 million loss, there will be a $5 million increase.

This is not said by way of any form of criticism, I merely want some of my friends over there to know that part of that approximately $25 million overspending in 1977, which they were so exercised about, 25 million and 1. 3 billion. That was also a drought year; there was also fire fighting in that 25 million. I can't say that it was 10 million, I think it was more like 5.

But I think thafs it's well to indicate that there are some sophistications in the estimate process which make, no matter how well you budg et, that somebody can dispose otherwise and in this case, if the firefighting position is the same as last year, then this particular item would be increased by $10 million, not by $5 million, but by $10 mi llion. Although the last year estimate figure was $6.7 million, you have to add $5 million for a special warrant. If you're estimating this year $1 million and you add a special warrant, you have to go to $10 million .

I wonder why the Min ister would not put in - I'm going to be worried about these Estimates - if last year is $6.7 million wasn't enough, why would we go down to $1 million this year? Why wouldn't we put the same $6.7 million, unless the size of the budgetary expenditure of 16 percent increase over last year has caused -(Interjection)- In this case it would be like water, because water is used to fight fires, so it would have to flow like water. But we do have in one item a potential overflow of $10 million, and let's all hope that it doesn't happen.

But when it does happen, I hope that people will be more sensible about it than to say that the government lied to us about the Estimates, and that the money was hemorrhaging out a financial hemorrhage, when you had to fight fires. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I make the point once again. We are budgeting twice as much in this traditional item than what has been the case over the years that the item has appeared in the Estimate book. Further than that. there is some reason to suggest, why should we budget on the basis of the worst year of costs with respect to forest fire suppression on record, namely last year?

I don't dispute the hono urable member's figures for last year. The actual figure for last year was $1 2.2 million. MR. GREEN: Some say just put half, not put in $1 2 million. put in $6 million, then these figures come out the same. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm satisfied that there is no departure from - well th ere is a departure - the departure is that we are budgeting 100 percent increase over what we normally would have put in this appropriation because of our realistic concern about the costs that we may face in this area.

I would have to say without taking issue really with the honourable member, we know - and I don't know whether the honourable member was here the other evening I think when we went through some of the efforts with the Member for Rupertsland - that the department is taking to gearing up for forest fire suppression in the coming year. I certainly wouldn't want to in any way, leave any impression that when the dollars are required, they will be spent as they were last season. I submit, Mr.

Chairman, that the provision of a figure of $1 million is no departure for any other budgetary reasons such as the honourable member suggests by innu endo, that this represents any departure from the norm. Conservatives believe in the norm, and will behave in a normal way. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Chairman, let there be no accusations of innuendo. I am going to say it directly so that there is no in nuendo, tha t there is a departure.

The departure is from budgeting $6.7 million last year, that was in the Estimates; spending $12 million which I won't make any criticism of that at all; but the bud getary figure this year is one-sixth of what it was last year, and that has appeared to make the Minister's Estimates on this particular item, reduced by a third and actually they're exactly the same as they were. If you go through these Estimates they're not exactly the same as they were, they're slightly higher and the only reduction is a Budget item on firefighting. The fact is that last year they budgeted $6.7 million, unless that's incorrect. MR.

ENNS: Well. Mr. Chairman. I kn ow the honourable member who is always concerned about putting factual information on the record, I'm advised, again with the assistance of staff, that in fact last year we budgeted the traditional amount. I suspect $.5 million. The additional $6 million - (Interjection)- later on in the season and is now being shown. The member's arguments would have some validity to them if in fact we had budgeted, as it would appear now in the printed Estimates, if we had budgeted $6 million last year under this item. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman.

I thank the honourable member, and therefore I will withd raw th at suggestion that it's one-sixth. But what we will likely have is the same situation. What we will likely have if the weather stays as it is. is that before th e Estimates are completed, Supplementary Supply will come in for $5 million, and then you will have 2632

Thursday, 9 April, 1981 followed exactly last year's pattern. I hope we don't have to do it. But I think that what is to be made a point of - and it's not a very big point, I will admit it - is that this year's figure in this item is the same or slightly higher than last year's, and that the real difference is an uncontrollable, impossible-to-budget item; mainly, what are you going to have to spend on firefighting? MR. CHAIRMAN: 11 .(a)(1) - pass; 11 .(a)(2) - pass; 11 (b)(1) - pass: 11. (b)(2) - pass; 11. (c)(1) - pass; 11. (c)(2) - pass.

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,457, 500 for Natural Resources - pass. 12 .(a)(1) - pass; 12.(a)(2) - pass; 12 .(a)(3) - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Could the Mi nister perhaps indicate to us what the reason is for the rather drastic jump in costs listed under Problem Wildlife Control? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that this is a new program, one of those new initiatives that the department has taken un der my di rection and leadership that I referred to earlier on in the course of the Estimates.

This is a new component included in the program Estimate and relates to improved capabilities to provide relief in problem wildl ife matters. This program is designed in part to remove major responsibilities from municipal governments for problems created by beaver, for instance. Another innovative aspect of the program will be dire cted toward red ucing and preventing deer damage to crops. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, is the Minister actually seriously going to embark the Provincial Government in the problem of removing beaver dams where they may exist? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, just because the honourable former administration wouldn't face up to its responsibility when it comes to controlling beaver and their habits, let it be known. MR. GREEN: I wanted to know whether the Minister is going to accept a global responsibilit y for the Provincial Government runnin g around removing beaver dams wherever they may exist. MR. ENNS: This Min ister has never shirked any responsibility, and that includes beaver.

Advice is pouring in at me from all directions and I must confirm, despite the doubting Thoma ses in this committee, that we do intend to assist what has - and let's not be facetious about this matter - I was chastized by the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose for not taking too seriously his pro blem with domestic livestock that was shot. I must indicate to the hono urab le mem ber,

part icularly if he has attended any recent municipal meetings, the annual meeting of rural municipalities, that the question of beaver and their related problems with the damming of little creeks and streams and drainage ditches is a serious one.

I'm advised again by my capable staff, that we intend to tackle the problem that beaver present in 2633 this province and attempt to assist municipalities with specific undertakings such as removal of dams where situations are called for; co-operation with the Manitoba Registered Trappers' Association to focus trapping attention to areas where that is a possible resolution to the problem; and I believe even in the actual transfer of beavers from problem areas to other areas where we believe they can create a different problem. MR.

GREEN: I was certainly not intending to be facetious and I frankly, do not have any criticism of the government movi ng in to certain areas. My impression of the problem when I was more directly concerned and when I talk to the same people who are advising as the Minister is now speaking to, was that it was so widespread as to make it virtually impossible to have the province give the kind of undertaking that I was asking the Minister to give, that the province will give on a universal basis the guarantee to remove beaver dams where they are causing problems.

Now if the Min ister says that we're going to assist, we're going to provide informational programs, we're going to try to have our water resource people do some preventive work , etc., then I understand that and I think that it makes good sense. But I'm asking the Minister whether he doesn't think the task of removing all beaver dams in every place where they cause a pro blem is beyond the power of th e Provincial Government. If it's not, then I welcome it. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, debate on this little qu estion provides an occasion to highligh t the fundamental difference between my socialist friend, the Leader of the Progressive Party, and myself. This is typical of the socialist approach to resolving problems. Unless they can resolve them in a universal way, they throw up their hands and say it can't be done. On the other hand as a pragmatic Conservative, I'm prepared to go, beaver at a time, step by step, and attack it in such a way.

I'm not saying that I can resolve the problem on a universal basis, but I'm prepared to acknowledge the difficulty that it presents to mun icipalit ies in

part icular, and we have the refore budgeted a substantial increase, from $1 2,000 to $205,000 on our beaver control and Beaver Management Program. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, the debate has now become philosophical and I see that we have to indi cate the di fference between our so-called socialist and our so-called Conservative friends in a little dif ferent way.

What the honourable member has said is that he is a beaver dam socialist, that he will use the public purse to provide assistance to private people who are having problems by virtue of beaver dams and that he won't say they will individually look after themselves; he will be a beaver dam socialist to the extent of looking after those problems. But he says that the difference between us and him is that we say it should be done universally. He says he will do it dam by dam. What he is saying is that he will do it Conservative dam by dam.

When you start picking out where you are going to do it and where you are going to spend the money and saying that we will remove some dams and not others, then my inclination is that the Conservative way is that they

Thuraday, 9 April, 1981 will remove the dams of the Conservative beavers and not remove the dams of the Socialist beavers. MR. CHAIRMAN: {Item 12 .(aX3) to 12.(mX 1) were each read and passed.) 12.(mX21 - the Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: I wanted to bring to the Minister's attention something which I raised in the question period today and that's related to the concern over the Canadian Forces helicopters and troops that were normally available for hazardous fire fighting conditions.

I'm informed, by way of a news release of which I received a copy of from the Government of Saskatchewan. that no Canadian Forces helicopters or troops will be available for forest fire control this year from May 1 to July 31 and that this has been brought to the attention of the Saskatchewan Government. I assume the same condition will apply for the Manitoba Government.

The indication is that we are going to be into a very dry season, a very hazardous forest fire situation and I think that this is something of very grave concern and it's something which the Min ister should be bringing to the attention of the federal officials. When 1 asked him the question today, Mr. Chairman, in the question period he referred the matter to the Mini ster responsible for Emergency Measures.

Well, 1 think that this may fall under his jurisdiction but it certainly should be a concern of this Minister as well since if these troops and helicopters are not available to this Minister, he will have to make other arrangements.

Now I'm informed that the Canadian Forces from Western Canada will be involved in Rendezvous '81 exercises in Gagetown, New Brunswick, whatever that may be, and this involves removal of helicopters and troops from Western Canada at this time of the year, May 1 to July 31, a time of the year when it may be very hazardous here in Manitoba and a time of the year when we may definitely require these troops and equipment. So, Mr. Chairman, I want to know what the Minister is going to do about this and what alternative arrangements, if any, he is considering. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, the information that the honourable member relates to the committee is substantially correct. However, officials from this department, as well as from Emergency Measures, as I in dicated to him in the House, have been in contact with the armed forces with Colonel Cunn ingham and he has assured us that despite the planned maneuvers in Gagetown, New Brunswick, that we will be provided with the necessary support troops and equipment that we may have to call upon should the fire situtation require that. I appreciate that there is close consultation taking place.

We are drawing up a potential list of requirements; the Colonel is aware of them. It's not for me, I can't speculate or project how precisely or from where the necessary supplies, troops and equipment will come from, whether or not that will come from other bases. I'm advised again by staff that the armed forces are prepared to make sure that they are back from New Brunswick if need be and interrupt their exercises to assist in the valuable effort that they provided last year in the suppression of fires.

I might just, in this instance, indi cate to the honourable member that I had the occasion to speak about this subject matter directly to the Honourable John Roberts, the Federal Min ister of the Environment. While he's not directly responsible for Defence Forces but he certainly agreed to carry the message to the Federal Cabinet and to his colleague, the Minister of Defence. Our concerns, and I did this in the company with my Saskatchewan colleague at a recent one-day conference that I had in Regina about two weeks ago now, so that at the local level here this matter is under active consideration.

The armed forces are aware of our concern and while the planned movement of the troops and equipment to New Brunswick is correct; the maneuvers, as 1 understand them, will take place in New Brunswick as scheduled but we have been given the assurances that they shall return, as one famous general once said as he returned on one famous beach. MR. CHAIRMAN: 12 .(mX2) - pass.

Be it resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $ 11 ,983, 700 for Na tural Resources - pass. The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I wonder before we conclude the sitting tonight if it would not be advisable if I provided the honourable members with several copies of the Construction Program, Capital Program for Parks, the Capital Program for Bridge Replacement and the Capital Program for the Water Reconstruction Program.

I'll give these to honourable members in the Opposition who can pass them on and if we can have a few for members on this side of the committee as well, that will give members an opportunity of examining them in preparation for when next we meet. Committee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise. SUPPLY - EDUC ATION MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovanats (Radisson): This Committee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 48 of the Main Estimates, Department of Education, Resolution No. 53, Clause 4, Program Development and Sup port Services, Item (b) , Curriculum Develop ment,

(1) Salaries - pass. The Honourable Minister. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr. Chairman, last day the Member for Rossmere had posed a couple of questions, one regarded the placement 1 believe, of a particular student that he had referred to. I must say to him, Mr. Chairman, that 1 would appreciate having many more details in regard to that particular student. Perhaps he could meet me sometime, in my office or someplace convenient to hi mself, and we could discuss this particular situation. He also, Mr . Chairman, made reference to programs for gifted chil dren.

I don't think he included talented, but gifted and talented children certainly compose a segment of our school population that do deserve special consideration for 1 think obvious reasons. He had asked what was happening in this regard. I can tell him at this time that there are a number of programs in place in 2634

Thursday, 9 April, 1981 various school divisions in the province that really are utilizing different approaches. I think this is desirable, Mr. Chairman. Some are using an acceleration approach to challenge the child; others are using an approach where the children are taken out of the class and put in a special situation with others who are deemed to be either gifted or talented in some respect . As well we have the enrichment situation that takes place right in the regular classroom. So there are three models, if you wish, that are being followed and in some cases a combination of all three are being used.

If he asks me, Mr. Chairman, what is the best model, I would have to tell him at this time that the jury is still out in that regard. I refer him to a program that was utilized to some extend in this province back in the late Fifties and early Sixties - the Major Work Program that was widely utilized in the City of Winnipeg as well as certain other centres. This program fell out of favour. There has been a bit of research done on it, perhaps not enough and now it's getting a little late to conduct research on that particular program.

But the research is conflicting and it is also conflicting if you talk to people who are part of the program and who reflect back on it and make some assess ment of their own experience. So I can say to the honourable member that this is certa inly a concern that I do have about this type of child because certainly we are looking very closely at childr en at the other end of the spectrum and devising programs and services for them. It is not that we are ignoring children at the other end but we have not, to this point, come up with what we think is the ideal program.

Perhaps there isn't an ideal program for them; maybe we should just accept that and stop the different type of - I hesitate to use experimentation because it isn 't that, that's the wrong word to use, Mr. Chairman - but shopping for the right approaches may be another way of putting it. There is no doubt that these childr en require enrichment. Their abilities are such that they can master the normal program in a short period of time and unless they are self-motivated, have other interests, there is a danger that boredom can set in and perhaps make the child's school life a rather uninterest ing experience.

But I have to say, Mr. Chairman, that many teachers throughout this province do have that perception that enables them to recognize this child in their classroom and to provi de the type of enrichment and challenge on an individual basis, within the normal classroom, that enables that child to carry on in an interesting and motivated and challenged fashion in the classroom. I might say that my department has been doing considerable research ori this particular topic.

We've been looking at models that are used, not only in our province but in other parts of the country; we have held a sem ina r with interested people in the Educational Comm ittee on this particular topic. We're holding a conference on May 14 and 15, called a Gif ted and Talented Conference. I have an application form here, I'm going to send it over to the Member for Rossmere, he may well be interested in atten ding this particular conference because it is dedicated and focused right on this particular topic, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1) - pass - the Honourable Member for Rossmere. 2635 MR.

VIC SCHROEDE R: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I cer tainly will take him up on the suggestion that I discuss the first matter with respect to the child who isn't in school with him; with respect to the conference I'll certainly see whether I'm able to atte nd, it would be interesting.

Again dealing with the talented and gifted , the Min ister has indicated that there are a number of divisions providing programs and, as he also points out, individual teachers I'm sure across the province are doing what they can with respect to specifically enrichment and he's referred to also taking students out of cl asses and into special classes and acceleration.

I suppose at this point in time the conventional wisdom is that kids should be as much as possible with other kids from their districts, in the same classrooms with the rest of them possibly, not only for their own benefit but also for the benefit of those others in the clas ses. However I would certainly agree with the Min ister that we have to look at all alternatives.

There's one other area, in terms of curriculum, that I'm just wondering whether he could comment on and that is the whole question of streaming of our childr en possi bly sometimes too quickly into vocational schools and into tracks where they are basically doing little or nothing with their hands.

You might get on the one hand the scientific group who are into theory and that sort of thing, and there have been suggestions that possibly, without some manual addition, hands on approach or whatever you want to refer to it as being, that we are not providing a complete education, a complete opportunity for them when they go out into the world.

The theoretical skills are of course important but the manual skills may well be the extra added ingredient that is required in order to assist those ind ividuals in innovation later on in life, in doing things with the theoretical skills that they have learned in terms of practical applications and at the same time there are some suggestions that sometimes some of kids are put too quickly into straight vocational streams without sufficient academic training - and I'm familiar to some extent with the vocational schools such as the Kildonan East School in my particular part of the province - I'm just wondering whether the Minister could comment on those things.

MR. COSENS: Mr. Chairman, I think of course the concern expre ssed by the Member for Rossmere is one that all people would share. However, there is a basic principal in our society that people are free and are free to make choices based that we would give on the best information and the best advice that they can procure and that of course exists in our schools, particularly at the high school level where students do have a wide choice of particular courses that they can follow, particular programs that they can follow, usually starting these at the end of Grade 9. I would hope, Mr.

Chairman, that in most cases these choices are made on the basis of advice and guida nce, counsel ling between the student, the parent, the teacher, the guidan ce counselor and anyone else who can help and assist the student in making the best choice. Based, of course, when I say on the advice of other people, based on an assess ment of the student's interest, their aptitudes, their abilities that have been demons trated up to that

Thursday, 9 April, 1981 point and I have to stress interest, Mr. Chairman, because I think that's what provides the motivation that enables the individual then to move along in a course and be successful in it, as long as that is accompanied of course by the required ability in aptitude. So, I have to agree with the honourable member that there is a danger that exists where people have this choice, that they may in fact for a number of reasons make the wrong choice. However, our system is not such that it locks someone in, it closes all doors if in fact they do make the wrong choice.

There is a flexibility, the ability to move from one program to another and still, during the process of three years in Grade 10, 11 and 12, amass the required number of credits to enable the student perhaps to change from a vocational stream to an academic, if necessary. We don't have a system that locks people in, so that if they make a choice when they are 15 years of age that they will never be able to change out of that particular stream and it's one that I think is the best of all worlds, Mr. Chairman. We look at other systems in other parts of the world, students don't have that choice.

There are some countries where they are locked in at age 13 and have no alternative after that and to me that is not an effective system at all. We do provide flexibility along with that choice and it is quite true that quite often an individual, not utilizing the best advice counse lling and so on at his or her disposal, could make a wrong choice.

But I would say for the vast majority the system is working and working well and if, in fact, they find after a year of pursuing a particular program that that is not the program that suits them, it's not the program that interests them, it's not the program that suits their abilities or aptitudes or even their interest after they've been in it, they can change and pick up the required credits to move into another area; perhaps move from vocational to academic or perhaps move from academic to