VOL. 3 NO. 58 .. PRELIMINARY - I· UNEDITED !l TRANSCRIPT ' I r ~ HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, MAY 12, 1978 I I

May 12, 1978 Tape 3063 DW - 1 I The House met at 10:00 A.M. I Mr. Speaker in the Chair. .! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like to welcome to the House of Assembly three groups of students who are here today. !rom _ ' I . ' Be'l'ney ~emorial High in Burin eighteen grade nine students accompanied by their teacher Ann Marie O'Leary. Also 7 a group of grade ten students from Beothuk Collegiate of Baie Verte •I t from J .R. Smallwood Collegiate in ~:rabush accompanied by their t accompanied by their teacher Mr. Barclav. And nine students teacher Mr. Ernest Condon.

I know hon. members join me in welcoming these students and their teachers to the gallery. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Also present in the gallery this morning is a delegation from the Town of Dover including Mayor Stan~ey Noble and Councillors Abraham Keats and William Noble.I am sure that han. members join me .also,in welcoming them here to the House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. P. CANNING: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege. MR. SPEAKER: A point of privilege has risen. MR. P. CANNING: Mr.

Speaker, it is with some sadness, perhaps,that I rise in this House this morning to perform,I suppose,what is a duty. There are some things I must do., I am compelled by my-conscience, Mr. Speaker, to rise.I am not compelled by any other outside force or any other motive other·than my personal conscience. Mr. Speaker, that is to say after leaving this House yesterday morning,going down through the corridors,picking up my coat and my briefcase I immediately left the buildinl!:.

~ay 12, 1978 Tape 3063 !)W - 2 MR. P • r..ANNING : Mr. Speaker, I have not had any conversation except a good morning or·,asking the time since I left here yesterday morning. }!r. Speaker, I cannot stay here in my position this morning according to my conscience.

The happenings of the House in the last while combined with the happenings or the events since I came back to the House in dealing with the govern- ment as a member of the Opposition - but on yesterday morning when some of the Opposition rose they rose and admitted that they meant it when they said that the Premier of th~s Province deliberately misled the House in certain -----------------matters~ - ~Speaker, I could have risen and repeated those words.

I could have been turned out by you, Sir, but I remained in my seat because it looked as if the entire Opposition would leave this chamber and the sit~ation would arise where there would be nobody here for perhaps three days or longer and there would be no Opposition to the government. Mr. Speaker, in a few days from now I will have sat in this House twenty-six years as a member on the government side plus some years in Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I have been called to order by the Chair to my memory twice in that time.

Twice in twen~-six years I have been called to order on a minor- not a minor, in fact, I broke the rules which is not minor but it was not anything serious. So now, and with all respect for the Chair, Sir, with all respect for you as Speaker I am going to put my- . i self in a position and I am putting you in a position. I am going to break the rules that I know so well, which I reluctantly do. I am going to put you in, not an awkward position, Hr. Speaker, because you have your duty to do and we all know that you will do it perfectly • •..

May 12, 1978 Tape 3064 PK - l Mr. Canning : p:oinp.: to "ar Hith i.t since my dealings with you as Speaker in this Eouse. Mr. Speaker, I do not know if I said during my speec~ last night, whatever night we call it, in the long session, that I believed that the Premier of this Province did deliberately mislead this House. I do not think that I insinuated that he lied. But. Mr. Speaker, in my conscience, in my mind, I felt, I felt moreso, I felt that I knew, I had proof enough that the Premier of this Province had deliberately misled this House. MR. CALLAN: That is right. MR.

CANNING: And by the fact of numbers, Mr. Speaker, the numbers of the government, the overwhelming numbers in the Caucus there were certain actions taken and I should too be one of the victims. So, Mr. Speaker, now I will have to say that I believe, I believe, I feel I know, that this House has been deliberately misled by the Premier of the Province. Mr. Speaker, in so doing I will use some judgment on the government, and it is this, I know that there are several members on the government side of this House - MR. SPEAI<ER: Order, please! I would like to interrupt now.

ThP. han. member stated in his remarks what he was going to do, and he knew what the Chair would be obliged to do, and the Chair is obliged to do it, and obliged to do it now , MR. CANNTNG: Do it now. MR. SPEAKER: - and that is to name the han. gentleman for Placentia- West, Mr. Patrick Canning. MR. CANNING: Mr. Speaker ,you are doing it now, and as of now perhaps, I do not have the credence to speak further. but I wanted to further emphasize the fact why I am going, but if I cannot do this I will humbly, respectfully bow to the Chair and take what is due me. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

STATEMENTS BY MINISTER MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to bring tci. the attention of the House a very sad occasion for two members of the House. f 'I . t I '-·' 'i .I I

May 12, 1978 Tape 3064 PK - 2 Premier Moores: I think all member of the House, both in and without, will join me in this particular comment I want to make. I would like to pass on the condolences of the House and the sympathy of the House to the Minister of Social Services whose father died the night before last, and also to the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) whose sister, Mrs.Marie Morris, also died within the last day or so. They were not in the House because of this reason. And I know all hon. members will join with me in passing on ours regrets and sympathy to them. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I would like to stand on behalf of our side of the House to be associated with any messages of condolences associated with the relatives of both han. ~wber~. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR.. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the Rural Development Authority,under the Department of Rural Development,recently held its seventy-seventh meeting. Consequently,it gives me ~reat pleasure to announce today that the Authority approved at that ~eeting twenty-one applications for assistance.

These applications come from business entrepreneurs all over the Province, all over the Island of Newfoundland, and in Labrador. The applications approved at this most recent meeting mean a total cash value of $271,608 will be going directly into the bloodline of our ever-growing small business industries. These loans will have two,immediate and very important consequences. First of all they will mean the continuation of seventeen full-time positions, and seventy-seven part-time positions. Secondly, the loans will cause thirty-five new jobs and seventy-seven part-time jobs to be created.

Altogether one hundred and ninety-six employment positions. Mr. Speaker, there is no room,I suggest 1for a debate as to the significance of creating such positions in our economy. The type of businesses receiving this assistance through loans approved under the Rural Development Authority include~ A woodworking shop in Central Newfoundland; a sawmilling company in Stephenville Crossing~ a I · I -I. ~ 1 i I

May 12, 1978 PK - 3 Mr, Peckford: pulp wood harvesting operation on the l'lest Coast1 a fish process facility in Petty Harbour area, a fish processing facility ' on the Labrador Straits side of the district of the Straits; a pulpwood harvesting operation in the Baie Verte Peninsula area; and an operation near Corner Brook manufacturing wood trusses. It is fairly obvious, Mr. Speaker, by taking a quick glance at this list that some of these operations are in areas where employtDent has traditionally been difficult to find. Others are in areas which have been hit only recently by employment scarcity.

In all of these case, the l oan.s approved by the Rural Development Autho r ity I I I 'I · ~ l .. I

~ !ay 12, 1978 Tape 3065 EC - 1 HR. PECKFORD: will allow the provision of goo~ jobs in smaller communities which some day may prove to be the backbone of the Newfoundland economy. ! ,, ~ :I In that light, then, we will continue to encourage this . ~ rl ,, kind of industry with government financial aid and expertise. Incidentally, Mr. Speaker, since its inception the Rural Development Authority has expended a total amount of $9,261,000. 0 I SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, in responding to ' that ministerial statement I want to sa~ as the shadow on Rural Development,that we on this side of the House, of course, are happy and pleased at any time to hear of new jobs being created in this Province. This is the biggest problem that we have in the Province, unquestionabl y , unemployment - the high rate thereof, and we are happy that the Rural Development Authority met for their seventy-seventh meeting,as the minister told us,a couple of days ago, and at that meeting, of course, approved twenty-one applications for loans or grants or what have you in the amount of $271,000.

I just want to ask the minister one question - perhaps there is hardly any need to ask it here, but at least it will save me a 'phone call. The minister mentioned three or four of the places there were projects had been approved. I notice he did not mention Come By Chance. There has been an application on the go from a gentleman in Come By Chance for the past five or six months. Now five or six months is not perhaps a long period of time to wait to get a loan approved and get all the paper work done. To people who are out there waiting and wondering what is happening to their applicatio~,

Hay 12, 1978 Tape 3065 EC - 2 t!R. CALLAN: of course, it seems like a very, very long time. And I understand that this application from Come By Chance was supposed to go to the board during this past meeting. I am wondering if it is on the list that the minister has there, and if it is, will he indicate that it is or if it is not perhaps he can indicate that. Well, anyway, Mr. Speaker, we are happy to hear about any jobs that are created that bring employment to the people who badly need it in this Province and we congratulate the minister and the Rural Development Authority on that. HR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. HR. HAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I have a couple of short statements regarding the spruce budworm spraying programme as an update to my earlier statement. My earlier statement outlining the full programme was given on April 11th, and at that time I indicated the tenders for the aircraft to be used in the spraying programme had been received and were under evaluation.

I would like to inform the House now that,acting upon the recommendations of senior Forestry officials, Cabinet has accepted a tender valued at $811,000 submit ted by ~· conair Aviation Limited of British Columbia. Con air was the only company to meet the specifications required by the Department. Quotations were for the supply of three large multi-engine aircraft each having a capacity of 3,600 U.S. gallons of insecticide formulation equipped with the Litton inertial guidance systems;-two single-engine spray aircraft, the AG wagon or equivalent type, and three high-wing twin engine supervisory aircraft.

There were two :I t ~ I ,, i

Uay 12, 1978 Tape 3065 r::c - 3 MR . !-tAYNARD: quotations received, one fro~ an American company which amounted to ap p roximatel y thirty-two cents per acre for a total of $733,000, and Conair 34.4 cents per acre. Aft er studying the qu otati ons the department could not recommend the awarding to ihe lowest tender, and reco=ended that Conail Aviation be , , _, accepted. I· I would like to give the reasons •I why the lowest tender was rejected in favour of Conair: l· I "'-' i ...

Hay 12, 1978 Tape No • 3066 NM- 1 MR. MAYNARD: Number one, the company having the lowest tender had never carried out an operational spruce budworm sprayin~ programme in Canada and 1 therefore 1 did not have the staff or the expertise necessary to successfully carry out an operation. Number two, the company is American and has no aircraft registered in Canada. It presently owns one DC 7 aircraft, modified for aerial spraying and intended leasing three DC 4fl, or two constellation aircraft from US spraying contractors.

However, under current air transport regulations, foreign aircraft are not permitted to work in Canada without prior permission from the Air Transport Board. Before the board can grant this permission,they must ascertain from all Canadian spray contractors that no aircraft are available in Canada. And officials of the board in Ottawa indicated that no such request for permission had been received to bring foreign aircraft into Canada by this company up to the time the recommendations were submitted to Cabinet.

At present the company has only one DC 7C aircraft the only one in existence modified for spraying and, therefore . could not provide any back-up equipment. In other words the American company did not meet the specifications outlined by the Department • Conair Aviation did meet the specifications and have successfully carried out work for the Department in the past. Our experienced with the company,which successfully carried out the 1977 .experimental programme, . bas being highly favourable.

We felt therefore that Conair Aviation was the onlv company suited to - the only company who bid on the tender call and suited to carry out the programme. The other statement is related to the spruce budworm control and I might as well do it at the same time. The decision has been reached, in full co-operation and consultation between officials of The department and officials of the I . ! '. f 1 t I; 'I -I ! li. I I t •

May 12, 1978 Tape No, 3066 NM- 2 MR. MAYNARD: two paper companies using criteria established earlier this year and announced at that time for the location of infested areas to be treated for budworm control this year. And in order to allow the general public complete access to the plans for the proeramme, a large one to 250,000 scaled map of the Island of Newfoundland will be made ' . available for public viewine at Forestry Headquarters, Building 810, Pleasantville, and at Re~ional Office Headquarters in Gander and Corner Brook, starting on Monday, May 15th., 1978.

You will note there will not be any map of Labrador simply because we are doi~ a pro2ramme in Labrador. We did not feel there was anv need for supplying a map for obvious reasons. These very detailed maps, or as detailed as we can get them, show the areas that will be treated for spruce budworm control and will be available for public viewing for the duration of the spraying programme. Other large scaled maps ·showinl!: specific areas to be treated in each forest management unit will also be available for public viewing by persons living in or near each of the management unit offices.

These unit maps will be exhibited in management unit offices at Clarenville, Gamba, Gander, Lewisporte, Milltown, Bishop's Falls, Springdale, Roddickton, Port Saunders, Pynn's Brook and St. George's, again they will be ready for viewing on May 15th. And the maps will show only localized sprayin2 work bein2 carried out in each of these areas, the ones in the regional offices. For additional information,of course,the people can contact our Uepartment at any time.

As well,to further aid the public in obtaining information about the pro11:ramme, the department will again establish a toll- free telephone service at Gander whereby information and details will be available durin!!: normal working hours. This telephone number will be publicized shortly by the various outlets of the broadcast and the print media. By these effortsJwe hope to afford

May 12, 1978 Tape No. 3066 N!>! - 3 HR. MAYNARD: complete information about the spraying progrlllllllle to any and all residents o~ the Province. In this regard,I might also mention that myself and officials of my .

Department will travel to· the West Coast a:nd central areas of the Province early next week to meet with vario .us concerned groups a:nd the I~~"edia, t.own councils, etc. to fully explain the programme and to answer any questions they J11aY have.· On th£.t trip 1 officials of the: Department of Health and the Provincial Department of the Environment, will accompany me. so that, hopefully, people W'il.l be able to obtain any information they desire about the spruce budwor= programme for this year. Thank you. '. i I

May 12,1978 Tape llo. 3067 AH-1 1-'R. SPEAKER: ~pfnrP recognizing the hen. gentleman I would welcome to the House on behalf of hen. members,a number of grade Vlll students from the Integrated Elementary School of Norris Arm. I know hon. members join me in welcoming the students to the legislature. S(l}q!; RON. MENBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPE.A..KER: Ron. member for Terra Nova. XR..LUSH: There is not much that needs to be said on the contract to the Conair Aviation in the terms of a response but I will have some questions on it during the Question Period.

With respect to the spraying for the spruce budworm control , ! am glad that the minister has decided to let people know what areas will be sprayed through the accessibility of maps in the various regional offices . _ _i_:>~~y wis_t: that this could be done on a · vitlf!!r hARis h""'""'" rhPrP is going to be an awful lot of people who are not going to be able to get into those regional offices; people who are concerned about ~-:hat areas will be sprayed, people with a very profound concern for the effects that this might have on the environment and a few worries and some anxieties I am sure that these people would like to know what areas are going to be sprayed, what areas might be sprayed that might be affecting their immediate area.

The unfortunate part about that is that there are still going to be a large number of people who are not going to be able to get into those offices and get a look at those maps. But I certainly hope that the minister will give a lot of publicity to what he is doing and these maps will be put in those regional offices so that the people will know they are there and be encouraged to go in and see the areas that are to be sprayed.

At this point,this is about the only advice that I would have for the ministe~ that he should certainly publicize this idea of placing the maps into the regional offices and encourage tne people wno are concerned about spraying to go into those regional offices and just see what areas are going to be sprayed and see if there aue any areas that are going to be sprayed near their environments about which they may be concerned. ,I '1 a I \ l' .. ~ r 1:. -. il I· I'

'flay 12,1978 Tape No. 3067 AH-2 MR. LUSH: So I hope the minister will do this. MR. SPEAKER: Han. Minister of Health. :::R. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, for some time now we have been concerned about the high cost of drugs to the people, to the consumers of Newfoundland and I would like to advise the House that over the past several months, the staff in the department and myself have given great consideration to the problem, We have discussed the matter with the Newfoundland Medical Association and also with the Newfoundland Pharmaceutical Association, and we think that we have come up with an approach to be taken, which I will outline briefly. I think it is a well known fact that doctors, general~y, when they precribe drugs use brand name drugs.

It is our intention to introduce a generic drug dispensing program in the Province. There will be a listing of suitable drugs made available to doctors and to the pharamacists around the Province. And we believe, Mr. Speaker, that the overall cost of drugs to the consumer in Newfoundland will be reduced by as much as twenty per cent and that is a tremendous reduction when one considers the high cost of drugs today. I have a short statement which I will table. I am advising the House now that before this session ends I will be bringing in legislation to deal with the matter. PRESENTING PETITIONS 1!11t.

SPEAKER: Han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave of the House to present a petition that I attempted to present here on Wednesday. The petition on beh~lf of 836 citizens of the Eastport Peninsula, 836 concerned parents, Mr. Speaker, served by the Eastport school system :lirom tne follvwing communities of Sandringham, Salvage, St. Chads, Burnside, Sandy Cove, Happy Adventure and Eastport. The petitioners, Mr. Speaker, are requesting that funds be made available for the construction of a gymnasium complex for the Eastport school system. I will read the petition which is as follows: '1 i ·t \.

I I t ·

!fay 12, 1978 Tape 3068 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: "\-le, the undersigned citizens of the Eastport Peninsula, petition the hen. House of Assembly' to make available to the IDEC, the Integrated Denominational Education Committee, and in turn, to the .. Terra Nova Integrated School Board, and in turn, to the ' .. Eastport school system, sufficient funds for the construction of a gymnasium complex within our school system.

We deem this to be absolutely necessary, since , I we are the only school system under the jurisdiction of the Terra Nova Integrated School Board whose students lack facilities for proper physical education. We humbly so pray." Now, Mr. Speaker, it is obvious from that petition - the way the petition was worded, that these people are certAinly aware of how the funds are made available in education. It is not a matter of misunderstanding how this is done. It is stated here precisely the way it is done so those people certainly understand the way the system is.

This is a simple and a most realistic and just request from the citizens of Eastport. And,Mr. Speaker, it is much more profound and much more sophisticated and much more comprehensive than is revealed in this petition. The Action Group, a group of concerned parents that was formed recently on the Eastport Peninsula to look into the educational needs of the children on the peninsula designed this petition. Also, they presented a brief to the minister and to the Superintendent of Education in that area, the Terra Nova Integrated School Board, and to the !DEC.

They presented that brief - it was an excellent brief that showec the comprehensive and detailed plans that the Action Committee have for the area~ and the gy~nasium is just a part of • .c this plan, but the gymnasium is necessary to help them to

!lay 12, 1978 Tape 3068 EC - 2 HR. LUSH: be able to realize their total plans. In order to understand the purpose of the gymnasium, :Ir. Speaker, one needs to talk about their brief. In their brief they presented some of the inadequacies in the system at Eastport. They have two schools, an elementary school and a high school adjacent to each other. Both of them have inadequacies, and the inadequacies in both could be taken care of with a gymnasium that would be placed between the two and would be used by both schools. Now let me illustrate some of the weaknesses in both systems first.

There is no gymnasium, of course, in the high school. They mentioned this in the brief - no gymnasium - but they are using an auditorium that at the moment is very dangerous. It has radiators built onto the walls and stairwells coming down into the auditorium. It is very, very dangerous and certainly not proper for a gymnasium in -the high school. In the elementary school they have no library, no resource centre, and in neither school do they have science equipment. So, Mr.

Speaker, there is no question that on the Eastport Peninsula the students are discriminated against with respect to quality education and the quality of educational opportunity. 3ow with this gymnasium complex they are asking for, this will free up certain space now used within the high school for a gymnasium which is not satisfactory to be used at all.

There is a gymnasium in the elementary school, but with this gymnasium complex they will be able to use the gym for both schools and this will free up the auditorium and free up the gym in the other school to be able to allow them to put in those facilities that they lacked, for example, the science facilities, to put in a library - and a library is a basic essential to any school today. li i ! !

May 12, 1978 Tape 3068 EC - 3 MR. LUSH: You cannot operate a school without a library. To say that you can is equivalent to saying a fisherman can fish without a boat. So there . 'i is absolutely no way that you can operate a school without . ~ a library, and there is no library in this school, Mr.

Speaker, and so the granting of this request allowing them to build this two station gymnasium whicl . would be used by the high school and the elementary students will allow the school board, will allow the Action Committee to be able to carry out those plans that they want to be able to take care of the inadequacies that are presently there. You cannot teach music in the Eastport school system - no place for music, you cannot do drama in addition to the other important areas that I have talked about,of science and of the important facility of a school library. And, Mr. Speaker, in this I have made

May 12' 1978 Tape 3069 DW - 1 MR. T. LUSH: no reference at all to the need for physical education in itself,the importance of developing our bodies phsically and these people in the high school in Eastport have no opportunity for this right now. And as they have said in the petition they are the only school in the Terra Nova Intergrated School Board, the only high school without a gy11111asium and I would expect one of the very few right acrose Newfoundland. AN RON. ~!EMBER: (Inaudible) MR. T. LUSTI: Okay , thank you very much. I just want to finish then, Mr.

Speaker, by calling upon members opposite to see the seriousness of this situation and I hope when the minister gets up to support this petition that he will do as he is requested to do in this petition. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. J. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I rise t:o support the petition so ably presented by my colleague.

I too have gone through that route where we had no gymnasium ':l.n our area., Our weather,in turn 1 being what it is it is very difficUlt for our children and the grown-ups too for that matter to get the kind of recreation that they do really need for their health's sake and other reasons- 836 citizens, that is a large number of people to be on a petition.

The fact that they have set up an · Action Group of parents who are vitally concerned with the I social well-being as well as the physical well-being of their children are trying to tie together a school complex which is going to serve people much better than it has up to now,-· and , ! think most ~f these places in the outports, in the rural areas are very dependent on gymnasiums, To those people it would seem like a luxury.!t is not a luxury, it is an essential thing both for • the community as a whole 2nd especially for the ahildren,How can we develop them ' i · r l l

May 12, 1978 Tape 3069 DH - 2 IfR. J. WINSOR: physically, mentally, socially if they do not have a decent place to meet~play the different games1 take

part in sports which will eventually get them going all over 6anada and getting some medals and so on, and letting the rest of canada know we are here and going along with the rest of Canada in trying to develop our citizens. I certainly suppoct the petition whole-heartedly so ably presented by my colleague. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Stephenville. MR. W. McNEIL: Mr. Speaker, I support the petition so ably presented by my colleague on behalf of 836 citizens from Eastport. As a former physical education teacher I realize how important physical education is in the school curriculum.

Just to give you an example,during my term as an education instructor in the high school system,or prior to my term,! had the privilege of witnessing one student~who was on the verge of being put out of the system because there was a discipline problem with that individual. He was overactive and had no outlet except through the curriculum which only was geared in the pure academic sense.

The physical education instructor at that time had introduced for the first year time a physical educational program into the school curriculum and that individual turned from a troubled student into a very top student mainly because of his involvement in the sports program. And today in his sport he is ranked .twelftb in the world and without a doubt I can say that he is an outstanding Canadian. I do not think he could have reached that development without the physical -educ-ation program that was initiated in the school curriculum.

So it is very important that a school 1 if it is going to develop a student to his potential 7have these physical Pducation facilities. So I take, Mr. Speaker, I take no hesitation in supporting the petition of 836 citizens from the area of Eastport. f I j f . l ·.! I I

May 12, 1978 Tape 3069 DH - 3 !1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member dior Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speak er , I rise in support of the petition pJ:esented by the membeJ: for Ter J:a Nova on behalf of 836 citizens of the Eastpol:t Penninsula and their plea foJ: a very needed facility addition to their school . !

May 12, 1978 Tape No. 3070 NM- 1 MR. CALLAN: at Eastport, that of course being a gymnasium or a gymnatorium or an auditorium or whatever you might want to call it. Mr. Speaker, as I understand it, listening to the member from Terra Nova (Hr. Lush) talk about his petition before he presented it here today, that not only will that facility provide a place,of course,of recreation and what have you.but_a meeting place for large audiences in the case of the gymnatorium.

But not only that, the fact is that if this faci~ity is provided it will free up other space that is presently being used in the school for these purposes. It will free up space that can be used then for library facilities, science rooms and other things that are so badly needed in our modern-day schools today. Now, Mr. Speaker, I,of course,support this petition for a very obvious reason.

In the twelve years that I spent as a school teacher in this Province in different areas 7 on Fogo Island and other places, I have taught in schools that do not have the facilities of a gymnasium and then I taught in schools that do have them and to teach in both systems, both sorts of schools, one can easily see what a beneficial effect it has on the morale of the students.

The fact that they just do not have to sit in their seats all day long studyin~~: and doing text book work and so on, that they can get the odd period during the day when they can go to the gym and participate in some sort of sport and~of courseldurin~~: dinner hours and after school they can carry on other sports, ii adds to the morale of the students and it gives them a reason for staying on-rn many, many cases where students sometimes, because they are so bored with the daily routine of schools, get so bored that they drop out.,·rhev drop out in one of two ways; they drop out in the man-fashion where they take their -I I I l t -l I

May 12, 1978 Tape No. 3070 NM = 2 MR. CALLAN: text books and S"-Y, "I am finished. I am going home." Or they drop out in psychic way, they have dropped out for all other purpose except that they are still there i~ body. To me a good comparison of that sort of student, the psychic drop out, the student who has given up all interest and all interest in school and has given up working and studying, but is ctill there in body, it reminds me, Mr.

Speaker, of this government, they are still there in body and spirit but they have dropped out, they have given up the job of what they are supposed to be doing in this Province. Mr. Speaker, if I may refer to this brief which was presented to the Cabinet of this Province by the NTA, the ' Newfoundland Teachers' Association, it has to do with the amounts of money that we spend in this Province on education and it compares us with other provinces and it points out, without any doubt in anybody's mind that education in this Province is ·not getting the priority that it deserves.

True, practically one-third of our provincial budget goes towards education of different kinds, the School for the Deaf and vocational schools, university, day schools and what have you, but still, for example, in Prince Edward Island- l'rince Edward Island is a good example to take, not Quebec or Ontario. Prince Edward Island which has a per capita income lower than Newfoundland's - in 1970 PEI spent $526 per pupilt Thev were spending $526 per pupil in that year 1970, compared to $413 per pupil in this Province.

And in 1975 Prince Edward Island was spending $1,123 compared to $944 per pupil in this Province, even though Prince Edward Island has a per capita income lower than this Province. So, Mr. Speaker, in conclusion may I say this, that I whole-heartedly support the prayer of the petition because, as I mentioned in supporting other petitions, that a community in my district, Arnold's Cove is in a very, very similar situation. They have a fine school, a population of 300 but no I I - I ,, '· i' . ~ ! I ! L 0 j I i l i I -l I I I

May 12, 1978 Tape No. 3070 NM- 3 MR. CALLAN: facility where they can carry on the sports programme that is so vitally needed in our schools. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. V', I t ! I 1 l . ' I ~~ f I

May 12, 1978 Tape 3071 PK- 1 MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment . MR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, it is not my wish to stand here and get into a political argument about capital or anything else. I would just like to speak on the philosophy of the petition, as one who has spent some fifty years in the recreation area, not only in the City of St. John's but throughout the Province. I was never a teacher, I did not have the ability or the opportunity to get some of the benefits that arose from teaching.

I was not a professional with any degrees but I was perhaps a community-minded citizen who felt and preached in my sixteen or seventeen years in this House of Assembly that recreation,perhaps,was one of the more important things we should contribute to.

Just as this government was elected to office, I may say this,that I was Chairman of a small committee of younger members of this House representing various rural _areas of the Province, who did a survey and supplied it to the Premier telling him, in our opinion, the gceat needs for different recreation facilities, And we are not talking about great million dollar stadiums or anything like this, but perhaps in the smaller areas providing help to provide playing facilities.

Towards that end, Sir, I am very proud and very happy to be a part of a government that has spent many, many millions of dollars in creating· these facilities, in helping various organizations to provide the facilities that are so absolutely necessary. In my days when I was preaching for recreation, I always preached that an ounce of prevention was worth a pound of cure. When I was in the Opposition I was always preached that to spend a dollar in recreation might save $10 in the magistrates court through the Department of Justice. And through that philosophy I think this government has followed.

Now~to get to the actual point of the han. member's petition: I would love to see a facility such as that in the beautiful area of the Eastport Peninsula there. I now it very well, an'd I would love to see it, but for us as a government, and I am treading perhaps on constitutional grounds here, I do not think we can tell any

l I May 12, 1978 Tape 3071 PK - 2 Mr. Murphy: educational group that they should spend money on an auditorium or on a gymnasium or anything else. So I would suggest,perhaps,the way to go for those people in that area, and they are very much concerned about their children, is to form a recreation commission to establish such a facility there, And I am sure that going that way, properly organized with the help of the citizens, and "if they are very anxious about their children, which I know they are , possibly they would form · a committee that would start to raise funds.

And I am sure, Sir, from my knowledge of what is happening in the Department of Recreation,that every sympathy would be given toward helping them to create that facility. But to come here in this House and ask that it become a part of a school or anything else, quite frankly, and I am just treading on constitutional ground, I do not think, and perhaps the Minister of Education could tell me that, that any monies we grant to education today are given in a certain form, to certain groups of people, to spend as they· see fit providing that it is not beyond any reaLm of the Educational Task Force.

So I am very, very sympathetic to this group of young people, and I would say to the hon. member that he use every bit of influence he has in that particular area to organize committees, to get out to raise funds. I do not care if they sell oranges or sell apples or sell whatnot, and again I would guarantee them, and my hon. friend for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) the same way, we all know what the ordinary outport young fellow, if I am allowed to use the expression, is up against with reference to facilities.

But all we are talking about is building great million dollar facilities, great big auditoriums, great big stadiums. So I am very sympathetic towards the thing and as I say again}not as a P . C., not as a Tory, not as a Cabinet minister, but as one who has seen the results through my efforts in many cases, through the efforts of thousands and thousands of people in this Province that we are rearing gentlemen todav please God instead of punks and all the rest, and this is done throug~starting them off, to discipline them properly, organizing sports and everything else. So I will tell the ~on. member that he has

~1ay 12' L978 Tape 3071 PK - 3 Mr. Murphy: all of my support in the world for anything that can happen in that area, but as far as getting money throu~h the School system it is entirely beyond my functions. MR. SPEAKER: The b.on. the Minister o.f Education, the hon. the member for the Bay of Islands after. MR. KOUSE; Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak to the petition and support it to the extent that we can support it. I have received this brief fr0111 the Citlizen •s Committee on the Eastport Peninsula. Thev ~-rere in and visited my office and, of course, I was very impressed with their brief.

And, of course, I have a little feeling for th.at area because I taught there some twenty years ago. And one of the things, of course, about that area, at that particular t;fme7 I believe,• was that one of the first central hil!:h schools that was built in the ~rovince was built at that time. And at that time, of course,tbat Peninsula or that area was t he envy of all the other surrounding areas. Well, of course, as the cycle goes in the twenty-odd year span, lt&.ere haJL been hi~ger and greater things done everywhere else. I { • l .r I I •

l•lay 12,1978 Tape No. 3072 AH-1 MR. HOUSE: I just want to point out ti1at the procedure tilat was mentioned in the brief that the government make funding available to the IEC, the Integrated Education Committee, thence to the Terra Nova board and then to the committee is, of course~not exactly the way it can be done because it is never made available to the committee, it is done through the board and the IECs. We have given, ~~.

Speaker, granted,of course, this particular year $15,700,000 for capital construction-$13 million is done on a per capita basis throughout the Province and given to the various denominations and the other S2.7 million was paid mainly to the lEC in lieu of DP~E grants a few years ago. So there is about $10 million going to the IEC this particular year. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I cannot,of course,as a minister, or the government,cannot dictate to the IECs how this money is distributed but we have made available that amount this year and that is guaranteed up until, these guarantees of monies, up until 1983 • . :-:':Dd, of course, we keep extending that every two years to allow boards and the IECs and the DECs the flexibility to extend their borrowing and build naw schools.

There is about $100 million worth of schools requested and a lot of them, all of them pretty well, now are requiring gymnasia.But a lot of the boards are building schools without ?Ymnasia which is unfortunate because we do believe strongly that physical education is a very integral part of the education process. With the $100 million worth of schools being built in the laSt six years it may take another five or six years at the same rate before the.IEC's the DECs and the RCDC get all the schools that~ they require. Mr.

Speaker, I have been discussing this with the IEC and that group went down and met with the IEC0 I have not got a report back from.them but I do sincerely hope that their requests can be met through that process. ~:IR SPEAKER: Hon. member for Bay of Islands. MR. WOODROil: I would like to add my support to the petition . ' ~ ) I

May 12,1978 Tape No. 3072 AH-2 MR. WOODROW: so well presented ~y my friend for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) wnom I consider a very narri ana t>inceroo worker for his constituents. I think, Mr. Speaker, we should look at this in three ways, first of all the right to a gymnasium, secondly the need and thirdly the cost. Now, the children mentioned in the petition have a right to a gymnasium just as much as any children in any other part of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. I would like to add here also, Mr.

Speaker, that there is no doubt about it the government has done a creditable amount for recreation since it came in pcwer,and I am sure they will continue to do it. Now, number two, there is a need for a gymnasium in Eastport. Unfortunate:y,what happened in many pl~ces throughout the Province was that once we got school buses the little recreation that children got in walking to school was completely taken away. In our days, in fact,perhaps almost everybody here in this hon. House had to walk to school and that was certainly a form of recreation.

But there is no doubt about it now that since we have a programme of school buses and that is here with us to staytwe have to build gymnasia _ to keep our children exercised. Now, the next and the final point that

May 12, 1978 Tape No. 3073 NM - 1 MR. WOODROW: I want to make is the cost. The cost is really escalating every day. What impressed me, a couple of days ago I received a letter from the Chairman of the Recreational Commission in the community of Harbour Breton, my han. friend's district, and there was a gentleman in that district, who is walking 151 miles from Harbour Breton to Grand Falls in the near future to_seart raising money for a rink, an arena. _And probably what we should do is take a leaf out of what the han. member for St. John's Centre (Mr.

Murphy) said, I believe 7 that a lot of the money for recreation purposes has to be raised by voluntary groups. I am sure the hon. member who presented the petition will take that one into consideration and I want to assure him of my full support to his petition. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Grand Falls. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to have a word on this petition for a couple of reasons. First of all I had the opportunity of representing the peonle of Eastport and the region for a half a dozen years and I can sort of second the motion that it is one of the finest areas in our Province.

Some, of the finest people in Canada are in that area and they deserve every consideration for the petition which has been presented. I also want to say it is a little regrettable that yesterday, I guess it was, the last sitting day- on Wednesday was it?-when we had some people come from the 150 mile distance to St. John's to present their petition through their member, that there was not some level of negotiations or discussion between the House leaders to have avoided the situation where,in fact, they came here and did not see their petition presented. That was a verv unfortunate situat1on.

There WAs no alternative because of the fact that we had precedence with the motion that was before the House. But I would hope that in the future, if anything like this happens, that the peoole are not let down. Because I l ! J . ' t F l i

May 12, 1978 Tape No, 3073 NM- 2 MR. LUNLRIGAN: that gives the impression that the House is not willing to hear the public business, which is certainly not the case. Another point I want to make, Your Honour 7is the fact that we have a situation here which is maybe a typical situation in some of the areas of the Province where we have an obvious need, we have the lack of financial resources, which is the big problem, and 7of course,it brings up the Question about where some of our resources should come from.

I have always been of the opinion that we should not be as jealously guardin~ the provincial rights in education as, say, the people in the Province of Quebec ao. I have always felt that there needs to be some kind of an arrangement for Province like our own to receive some input from the federal government in terms of educational needs, particularly as they relate to capiFal expenditure. We started on the DREE schools. I do not think that was a big success and unfortunately because of that there has been a backing away Dy the federal government from that type of participation.

I do not know if we will ever get them involved in that again.

But I put a resolution on the Order Paper there two weeks ago regarding Term 29 and the hope that we can have a debate on the renegotiations of Term 29~.This was precisely the reason why I raised the question; that in the area of services , and this is hardly a service it is more of a resource but we can classify it in the area of services, the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador is not financially capable of dealing with the requirements and the needs as they exist, causing frustration and leaving Newfoundland with, in many cases, second- class levels of service, second-class levels of facilities that the people require.

And I would hope that we can, Mr. Speaker, when we dispose of this resolution, find some ways or means to I J u I

~.ay 12. 1978 Tape No. 3073 IDI - 3 HR. LUNDRIGAN: bring that topic forward so we can have two or t hree private members' days debatir.g the i ssue of the resolution of Term 29. I know that it is not as imminent in some ways because I do believe that an elect i on settin g would be the perfect setting to flush out the national leaders to give . i I ' I I' ~:.

May 12, 1978 Tape 3074 EC - 1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: to give the Province a little better deal. But I feel it is an important issue. I support the member and I hope that the member for St. John's West (Dr. Kitchen) who is a distinguished educator in his own right, can find ways and means to bring the issue of education into focus in the Legislature. I have to say that I am a little bit surprised that he has not been more vocal in this field and I hope he does :I. not leave all of it to his colleague from Terra Nova. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John's South. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, in rising to say a few words in support of this petition, I am glad to see that in the public galleries we do have.a number of students, and possibly this discussion might be of some value to them. And certainly a discussion on education, I think, particularly on the funding of education which this petition is essentially about,will be of benefit to all members of this House. I rise particularly because I have precisely the same situation in my own area. I think people may think that the St.

John's area is particularly favoured in terms of educational facilities and perhaps even the Roman Catholic School Board in the St. John's area in particular. But I would like to point out that in the St. Patrick's Girls' School in my area the precise situation exists, that is, a deficiency in gymnasium facilities, ani this is most unfortunate. Now the petition, it seems to me, implies that there is an inequality in educational facilities and this, I think, we all have to recognize and I think that to some extent it is inevitable. I do not think perfect equality , of facilities or services is possible in

Hay 12, 1978 Tape 3074 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: this life. It is worthwhile though looking at the source of funding for the services. My understanding is that about 95 per cent of the funding does come from the provincial sources mainly on a per capita basis, which is fed into the school boards and from there on into the schools.

About 5 per cent of funding comes actually through district school taxes which is again fed into the school boards and from there on into the schools, and a small allowance - I do not know what the percentage would be, it must be a very small amount - - which is fed into the schools directly by fund raisi~g at school level or possibly at petition level. Now,I am not too certain if there are discretionary funds available to the minister to supp~y the need such as this petition points out. I suspect that there are not because the minister did not mention them.

But I would suggest that under our present system, even if they were there, it would be rather impractical to use them very often, because if the minister used discretionary funds to fund certain needs in a particular school he would soon get into a lot of trouble with other schools and certainly with other school boards. I think this opens up the whole need of looking at the question of funding educational services, and the recent controversy over the teacher supply certainly brought out the same point.

And I was most disappointed, as I mentioned in this House, when this was subjected to a public meeting recently there was almost no word whatever on the financing and funding of educational services, which was a tremendous lack. Now what are the alternatives? Firstly, one of the alternatives would be to increase the proportion of the provincial budget available to education . ! · I

May 12, 1978 Tape 3074 EC - 3 DR. COLLINS: I wonder where this would be done. Would it be done in health services? Would it be done in welfare services? Would it be done in cutting out the odd airplane flight? I would think, desirable as that might be, cutting out the odd air flight would not give much in the way of financing to educational services. So if we decide to give a bigger proportion of provincial funds to educational services, fine. We can decide this in this House. But, of course, we have to face the consequences.

The second way of doing it would be to increase school taxes and I think that is certainly a practical thing to look at. I would wonder if all membersof this House would agree to increasing the school taxes to feed it into the school boards so that they can feed it on into the schools. And the.third one, it seems to me ttat we must bring back the community and possibly the paren"ts ..

Getting to that aspect of funding educational services, and again, I think that this is something this House should look at and I think that we are moving into this area 7 that we are getting away from the broad, overall funding, from government sources, of services that we use every day and we are getting more and more back to the practicalities of funding the services that we use every day, be they education, be they health, whatever they might be. We are getting more and more back to community responsibility. />.N HON. ~1EMBER: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Straits of Belle Isle. MR.

ROBERTS: I would like to say a few words in support of the prayer of the petition. I think it is a very sensible and a very eas~ly justifiable request and it is o~e which, in my opinion, ought to be granted. I ! ;{ . i 'i f -li ,f t: 1: L

!lay 12, 1978 Tape 3074 EC - 4 l1R. ROBERTS: Like the gentleman from Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan), I can say I know the area fairly well. I have never as yet represented the area in any parliamentary sense, but I have spent a lot of .~ I •: 'I ~ ·; II i . j ' ~­ Ji

May 12, 1978 Tape 3075 DW - 1 MR. ROBERTS: time there over the last few S~s and,in fact,am now a land owner in the area as my conflict of interest statement quite properly divulges~I am now invested in fee simple,in what I believe to me fee simple if not - MR. PECKFORD: No mineral rights. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I do not know if there are any mineral rights or not but we are drilling for oil 1 it is offshore. It is on the waterfront in Happy Adventure and · we will be in for offshore permits. AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROBERTS : But I believe it is fee simple_.

If it not some of the partners in the estimable law firm of Halley, Hickman, Hunt will have an action against them for professional negligence~ But be that as it may1 now that the golf course has gone to the other end of the park I will admit that I own the land because I admitted it as of the moment I owned it which was two or three months ago But anyway,I have a very raal interest in the area and I agree with the gentleman for Grand Falls that the people who live on the Eastport Penninsula in the communities of Eastport and Salvage and Happy Adventure and St.

Chads and Burnside are among the finest people in this Province. .MR. H. COLLINS: Sandy Cove • MR. ROBERTS: I could name Sandy Cove, I could name Sandringham. There are a number of communities there and the gentleman from Gander is quite right to point out that Sandy Cove is there out he Might as well name them all. - MR. T. LUSH: There is land there too for the golf course. MR.

ROBERTS: There is Upper Cove and there is Lower Cove and Powell 1scove and Plate Cove and Princes Cove and I mean we could go - and · Play Cove but the point is made is it is the Eastport Penninsula .and the children from the communities 1

May 12, 1978 rape 3075 MR.ROBERTS: the children go .to the school at Eastport,the Holy Redeemer School I believe it is called. MR. LUSH: Holy Cross. MR. ROBERTS: Holy Cross School in Eastport. The prayer of the petition is a very reasonaile one and I do support it. In so saying, Mr. Speaker, I would like to go on simply to touch upon some of the matters raised by the gentleman for St. John's South (Dr.

Collins) because unlike him I do not feel that the answer to the dilemma is to increase school taxes and I do not feel that we should get so-called community responsibility in the sense in which he used the word.! certainly feel we should have community involvement in education and that is why I feel, and have felt and when I was a member of Cabinet,or part of a Cabinet that brought in legislation to provide for the DW - 2 election of school boards so that we could have the authority to run our schools answering to the people to whom they serve just as the authorities who run our Province answer to tae people whom they serve 1 and I will take that further_ In due course I would hope we would have public representation on such things as hospital wards.

We now have representation that is essentially either self-appointed or appointed by government.! would like to see it go a stage further as we have. for example,! think,in Corner Brook.The Western Memorial Board has always had one or two or three members elected at large in a public process. But the answer to our problems in education is not to t~~ those who aannot afford to pay alreadY•¥e are not allowed to debste sbhool taxes under this particular procedure, Mr.

Speaker, anc so I will not but I do not think the answer is to put a greater burden on parents.rn fact the answer is to put the burden where it ought to be~on the shoulders of the general revenues,

Hay 12, 1978 Tape 3075 DH - 3 MR. ROBERTS: to use the phrase with which my friend for St. John's Centre (Mr. A. Murphy) will be very familiar.The general revenues of his quotes that is the answer to the needs of this Province. We may not be able to have enough money in general revenues to pay all the services and to buy all the facilities we need,but that is not going to be solvec by attempting to ship the burden on to the people who c"an least afford to pay. And I would say to my friend for St.

John's South that the people in the rural areas,generally speaking 7are the people who can least afford to pay these impositions and yet they are the people who end up paying most and getting the less services. J)ecause the harsh truth of it is that in the rural areas of this Province 7 I can speak of my own district intimately but in - h d rl uld 1 l.ast:port: and elsewhere in , ot er ist cts it wo a.pp y1 to t:ne :rural areas~the quality of education being made avail- able through the system we now have is not equal to that which is available in the urban areas.

And that is a direct result of the financing system,a direct result of the per capita grant system which discriminates against people in rural areas • I know the Federation of School Hoards are working on proposals to the Hinister of Education, In fact, the Reverend Mr. Cheeseman wbo was Rector at Holy Cross for many years and now7 I believe,is Rector of the Parish at Petty Harbour-! am not familiar with the name - MR. LUSH: The Goulds. MR. ROBERTS : - t:ne Gouldt~, the :mgl±can iarit~il out in_ the Goulds,. here south of St. John's I believe is Chairman of the Committee that is working on it.

My friend the Minister of Education shakes his head MR. HOUSE: That Committee has become defunct.

May 12, 1978 Tape 307S DW - 4 UR. ROBERTS: That Committee my f riend tells me I have one minute I j ust want c:o say that whUe the Committee may be defunct:· I hope c:he idea is not. JSecause I think we have got to get .to the point of looking at c:he equality of education offered to people in rural areas and not just simply equality of dollars. I think that is a very basic principle and it is not being met now. The harsh truth is that children in the rural areas of this Pt:ovi nce, and this i ncludes the childt:en on the Eastport Penninsula · and this petition makes ti quite clear, do not have access to the same . : I ., I

May 12,1978 Tape No. 3076 AH-1 l1R.ROBERTS: quality or standard of educational facilities or services, the same quality or standard of education as do children who live in the more urban areas. And that, Sir, is something we should all_oppose .. and that, Sir, is something we should all try to change. I support the petition, ~~. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. HR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to add a word of support to the petition as .presented by my hon. friend from Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush) , Indeed J.. would be remiss in my duty if I did not 7 as Minister of Recreation>and realizing and acknowledging the tremendous need for such facilities about the Province. l1y friend from Bay of Islands (Mr.Woodrow) pointed out that the gymnasium is indeed needed in the Eastport peninsula, I say to him that I wave agreement,that indeed that is so and so are there so many needs throughout the Province. We are in a time, Mr. Speaker, where fitness has become an essential item to do something with and to draw attention to.

This government has on many occasions supported the whole theory of the fitness programme when first brought into place by the federal government,and indeed in more recent times have found some money in our limited budget to support the fitness programme. This year we hope to get into a number of small programmes to entice people or provide some incentive for people to become involved in the whole area of fitness.

I would suggest to my hon. friend,and I am sure he does not want the record of the House to go and not be corrected, in his reference to the per capita cost of education being reduced or decreased in this Province, in equating that or those figures with that of the situation in Prince Edward Island, Mr. Speaker, I point out to my bon. friend that in that Province the whole area of education has in it the whole area of recreation, so that when he quotes a figure from Prince Edward Island he is covering the whole ' . 1 .. 1: '.ji • t ~ I ' _,, 11 I· I . I· ~~ ·I ii ~ f

·7 May 12,1978 Tape No. 3076 AH-2 MR. HICKEY: spectrum of education and recreation as opposect to this Province where my colleague's budget or estimates deal direct~y with education and all that that encompasses while my own budget and my own department covers the whole area of recreation which indeed is separate~ So if you add the two, I would suggest,that the statement made by my hon. friend is really not correct and I am sure he woilld want me, and I am sure he appreciates my making that correction. Mr.

Speaker, fifteen years ago or thereabouts if one saw one j egging in a community1 or if one saw a person who was taking good care of their physique, their physical appearance one was termed the exception rather than the rule, maybe indeed one might well have been termed an unusual person as such, but not so today, Mr. Speaker, as I pointed out. It is typical today to ~ee people jogging in communities throughout the Province, it is typical to see people drawing attention, to and indeed doing something-themselves to make themselves more physically fit. That is a good sign, Mr.

Speaker, because a good sound mind is essential but certainly going with that a good sound body and being physical fit is also very essential, both of which makes better citizens of our people.And .certainly from a purely financial point of view,as I am sure my colleague the hon. Minister of Health will agree, the whole fitness -programme goes a long way in the long range to reduce health costs. So, Mr.

Speaker, all ho~. members I am sure see and realize haw important such facilities, as the one requested by my hon. friend from Terra Nova Oir.Luah), how important they are to our people and acknowledges,well,that we are indeed living in a different age and recreation, fitness and sports and everything that goes with that today is much more important, recognized and,of course 1 receiving much more attention. I wish my friend well and I hope

May 12, 1978 Tape 3077 Pk - 1 Mr. Hickey: that he is successful in his attempts to get that facility for the people of the Eastport Peninsula. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. John's West, DR, H. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this petition.

There is a question that rises though, and perhaps the Minister of Education might either today or tomorrow or something indicate how a government which is preventing sports from getting the appropriate number of teachers, the teachers that they need to man these institutions, can at the same time speak out of the other corner of his mouth and say that he supports the petition for ~ymnasia, we can either have our cake and eat it or we cannot. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out to the han. gentleman that debate under the provision for petitions is not allowed, The han, member for St. John's West, DR. H.

KITCHEN: Thank you, Sir. Well let me put it a different way, Sir, that perhaps consideration can be given to implementing the use of a gymnasium once it is there. The other question that has to be looked at as well I MR; HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I wonder is it parliamentary for a member to say that ~eople speak out of both sides of tht!ir rwuti•co? I just want to get some information on that. MR.

SPEAKER: Actually, I had intervened previously with respect to debate and pointed out to the hon. member that he may not debate and he did ceased to so do. But the hon. minister's objection as I underst~d : l it is different and that is with this specific term of speaking out of both sides of one's mouth. I do recall,! think, a couple of days ago that specific term did come up and I did point out that it is a suggestion of hypocrisy or it could well be understood to be such,even if not intended as such. So I would point that out and ask the han. gentleman just to withdraw that term.

May 12, 1978 Tape 3077 PK - 2 Mr. Speaker: The hen. the member for St. John•s West. DR. KITCHEN: Whatever I said, Sir, I withdraw on that point. The question is one of inconsistency rather than of verbal specific words, inconsistency in being able to support a physical structure and at the same time denying the means to utilize effectively that physical structure. So any words that were used that were unparliamentary we withdraw. The other point, of course, that has to be raised with . this question of increasing money for physical structures is the government's role in it.

The way things are now the minister and the government can say, Oh,yes we support gymnasiums. But at the same time this government and the previous government and all other governments in the Province have consistently stayed out of th~ decis_ion-making_. ___ And _it may very well be time, it is not unconstitutional in my view, it may very well be time for government to make more careful decisions as to how the money is to be spent on physical facilities in thia Province.

We have the present system by which we decide how much money is to be spent and divided up on a per capita basis and turn it over to the denominations to spend. We do not have to do it that way1 we do not have to/ All we have to do constitutionally is to guarantee that fairer ways of distributing the money are in effect. Whether the government distributes it directly or does it indirectly by passing the money over to the denominations, both ways to me would be constitutionally acceptable.

What we are doing here 7 when we in the House of Assembly support in a very altruistic way about putting more money up for educational facilities,we are not really t ~ I ., I I i ' r

May 12!, 1978 Tape No. 3078 NM- 1 DR. KITCHEN: guaranteeing that that happens because we have, in my view, perhaps incorrectly passed too many of these decision-making mechanisms on physical facilities over to a body which is not accountable to the people in the Province. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of ~tines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I did not intend to get involved in this petition necessarily but there has been a fair amount of discussion on it and I would like, as one hon. member of the House, and as a former teacher, to lend my support to the prayer of the petition.

I think most people who are involved in education today directly, are fairly aware that anywhere there is a school or an educational facility where they did not have the opportunity of a gymnasium, an auditorium, and then later were successful in getting such a facility so that you could compare or contrast both circumstances,that any teacher or an educator could see a vast difference in the quality of education that was QOnducted in that area or in that community or in that school.

And I think it is stating the obvious but perhaps it 'needs to be reiterated from time to time,that it is not a matter of having people say that the students spend all day in the gymn rather than in the classroom,or to say that all they are doing in the school is playing games and that there is no longer any real "education" as known by the three R's years ago. It is not saying that. There is an element in our society which from time to time becomes rather upset when the pendulum starts swinging full the other way that we have to get rid of all these trappings, all these very expensive buildings and so on.

I think we have to have a control on that,of course,as we do not need just big buildings. But there is a strong overwhelming argument to be made in favour of reasonable recreation facilities being provided to students as they move through the various parts of their academic education. And I for one know from personal experience,both as a student going to the school system of the Province in the rural parts of our Province and I . I ! I i . ! I ' 1 '.I r i I I ~ ~ I {

,. May 12, 1978 Tape No. 3078 J}! - 2 MR. PECKFORD: then as both a student and a teacher learning and teaching in areas that had no facilities for quite some time and then being exposed to it as a student and teacher after facilities were put in place, recreational facilities, an auditorium for drama and ether cultural activities associated with the curriculum. And there was a vast, vast difference in the quality and the kind of student that graduated in grade eleven.

There is absolutely no question about that and nobody can deny any longer that this is an integral part of any decent, reasonable, formal educational system. Now the whole question of educational financing has come up as a result, of course~of this kind of a petition •. I .will just point out to the hon. member for the Straits,in talking about where all the money has to come from , that whether it comes from general re~enue or if it comes from the districts or the regions of the Province,it all comes back to the taxpayer.

I. mean~let us not fool ourselves and try to make a tiny distinction between general revenues and school taxes. the whole point of it being that the taxpayer finally, the citizen must pay additional·money in taxes or some other way in order-to increase financing of any social services in this Province whether it be education or whether it be health or whether it be welfare or whatever it happens to be. And then the question comes down,if you have given an amount of money then the priorities that government wishes to place on how that amount of money is to be spent.

And I guess that is the other corollary to it,just whether the priorities are rightL Then if the priorities are right in the large breakdown of sectors then are the priorities right within the educational budget itself and whether that money should be split a bit differently? The whole question of rural verses urban as it relates to quality of education is a very dangerous one to get involved in.

I am a rural Newfoundlander bo·rn and bred and I know now where I live in South Brook, Halls Bay that there are schools,elementary .and primary and high schools 1 that in one part of my district the quality of educztion •c I ·· ~ ., '.!

May 12, 1978 Tape No. 3078 JM - 3 MR.. PECKFORD : is extremely high and can rival anything in St. John's or Corner Brook or Toronto or Vancouver or New York or whatever but other parts of the riding are not so well endowed. So it is not just ~t . ' I -I I ! r

May 12,1978 Tape No. 3079 AH-1 HR. PECKFORD: a question of rural versus urban but there is very often - if you are going to talk about these kind of distinctions and qualities there is also the whole question of where that stops, where you stop making that kind of distinction because it is just not a matter of St. John's versus Nicks Nose Cove but rather a question of Springdale versus Nicks Nose Cove as well and that vhole question has to be addressed on the regional basis as well as the provincial one. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. J. WINSOR: ~rr.

Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of 282 persons in the community of Seal Cove, Fortune Bay. The prayer of the petition reads: ''To the hon. House of Assembly we the people once again stress the fact of the poor road conditions in our area, We feel that in our present economic and social structure that a dirt, gravel,pothole road is not a good example of a means of communication, We have a modern nTal communications system consisting of telephone, radio and television but our sole means of physical communications is very poor in comparison.

We have a pppulation of approximately 600 people, not a large one we know but we are human and are entitled to the modern conveniences of our time. As far as road improvement goes we are still in the horse and cart era. We would like to point out to you the many uses of the road in questions Medical services to Harbour Breton, Hermitage, Grand Falls or any other destination;banking services, the nearest banking facility is in Hermitage. ~o obtain this service we have to ~ravel via this road.

Consumer commodities; Our everyday existence depends on the condition of this road, freight trucks cannot drive over an impassable road. Teaching services; teachers iu Hermitage have to travel this road twice a day from home and employment and vice versa for teachers at Seal Cove.~lso when there is a medical doctor in Hermitage there is a bimonthly· trip to be of service to the ?ublic, Eighty per cent of Seal Cove's labour force are Price (Nfld.)

May 12,1978 Tape No. 3079 AH-2 HR. J. WINSOR: loggers and machinery drivers, these men have to tear up their cars going to and from employment. Also, there are other forms of employment that have to be found outside the community and still have to make use of this road, We cannot stress the point enough, that it is a means of communication and that we should not have to tolerate the inconveniences of rough uses of a dirt, gravel road when we live in a modern advancing society that demands that we as a people keep pace with it.

So to give voice to our complaints and strength to our demand for illlprovement we sign our names below~' And there are I I 282 signatures. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is not the first petition that has been presented for that particular piece of road.Approxilllately twelve miles it was built by hand, pick and snovel 7and I believe the grader was a frame of wood with two strips of steel on it drawn by a horse- they are much cheaper than the graders. we use today.

That road to stand up would have to be graded twice a week and there are not enough graders in the Department of Transportation to keep up with that kind of a schedule, they have other places to do, The only way is to build a decent road there which will stand up to the heavy traffic. I have travelled over that road many times in the last twenty-seven years and I must certainly support what these people say in their petition, it is ridiculous. It is one of the most beautiful drives you can imagine and I do not think that anywhere else in Newfoundland can you see as well, right across the famous Fortune Bay.

You can see from that road,in a particular spot,Sagona, Brunett, the Flats, St. Pierre and Miquelon and that is a pretty good group to get all in one view as the hen. Minister of Justice I am sure will agree 1 ,he having looked at it many times himself I am sure. I have much pleasure in supporting this petition for the second time

May 12, 1978 Tape 3080 EC - 1 MR. J. WINSOR: and I would certainly ask the ~inister to give this particular piece of road his strongest possible consideration. It is really needed. J It is a terrible road to travel over. These men when they are finished with the lumberwoods on a Friday evening - there are a whole whack of them they beat over that road; shock absorbers are the order of the day at the service station. I therefore have much pleasure in supporting this petition and ask that it be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: (Dr.Collins) The hon. the member for Terra Nova.

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this petition so ably presented by my colleague the member for Fortune - Hermitage, a petition from 282 residents of"Seal Cove, representing a population of 600 people. And, Mr. Speaker, in the presentation of the petition my hon. friend referred to the many services which are dependent upon this road surface - medical ,services and banking services and consumer services - the ordinary, routine business of any small community where they have to travel to other larger communities on larger areas to avail of these servi~s.

And then another point that the hon. member refers to was the fact of teachers communicating to the area to work, teachers living out of the area, no doubt, coming into the community to teach, and teachers within the area - certainly essential reasons why we should have good road surfaces in any such area depending on the services from outside their community. So certainly, the petitioners have advanced good reasons, good solid reasons as to why they should be provided with a good transportation system. And I support the petition and certainly hope

May 12, 1978 Tape 3080 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: that the Minister of Transportation will be able to come up with the money to be able to provide these people from Seal Cove with this much needed good transportation service - for this good road transportation. The hon. member also made reference to the fact that people's cars are being beaten up by travelling over those roads. And, Mr. Speaker, sometimes I think we fail to recognize the tremendous cost involved for people who have to use poor gravel roads, and I stress the word 'poor' gravel roads - roads in a deplorable condition.

People driving over those roads daily get their tires punctured, springs broken, shocks broken, plus the dust from the road getting into the engines causing all sorts of malfunctionings and causing all sorts of expense. I would venture to say that the maintenance bill of people living in such areas must quadruple.

The maintenance bills of people living in areas where there are paved roads, for example, here where we live and on the Avalon Peninsula and other larger areas of this Province, to compare the maintenance bills would just about overwhelm people to look at the comparable difference between the expense of running a car in an area where there are paved roads and in an area where they do not exist, and more particularly, where the roads are bad.

And I know of what I talk because I have these conditions in my own district and know the tremendous cost involved with people operating vehicles of any nature in these communities. It is terrible - a tremendous expense, and these people, of course, are taxpayers like all other people in the Province, workers ,. ~ r I

May 12, 19 78 Tape 3080 EC - 3 MR. LUSH: cont ribut ing to the economy of our country, paying for their licences and for their permits, and naturally they have a right to expect that they be given this service - good roads. And the saddest feature a~out all of this, Mr . Speak er, too, is the lack of maintenance on these roads , and I think the bon. 111ember referred to this, the lack of su111mer - I ·I i ' 1 ... . ! -I i r

May 12, 1978 Tape 3081 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: maintenance - the lack of a good summer maintenance programme where ballast is placed on the roads in areas where the roads are exceptionally bad. And where the roads are adequately graded this certainly would help alleviate the situation, but it seems as though a lot of these roads in the rural areas of Newfoundland, in the smaller parts of our Province, are neglected totally and are causing great inconvenience and great hardship to the people concerned. Mr.

Speaker, I support the petition wholeheartedly,and sincerely hope that the minister will be able to do something for these 600 people and the 282 people who signed the petition. I certainly hope the minister will be able to do something with correcting the situation there, and the least that can be done is to offer these people a good maintenance programme so that this coming summer ballast and topsoil can be put on the roads where they are exceptionally rough and that they can be offered a good grading service. I hope these measures can be taken. MR. SPEAKER: (Dr. Collins) Presenting further petitions.

The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: No, I am speaking on this last petition. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a few words to say in support of the petition so ably presented by MY. friend and colleague from Fortune -Hermitage (Mr. J. Winsor) on behalf of 282 residents of Seal Cove in Fortune Bay. Mr. Speaker, the point was made there in that petition very forcefully, I. believe, that one of the diaadvantages of having a gravel or a dirt road is the fact that - of course, obviously, the answer to the I

l i· ( May 12, 1978 Tape 3081 EC - 2 MR. CALLAN: problem would be pavement to get rid ~f the washboardy roads, the potholes and what have you, that would be the answer to the question. But, Mr. Speaker - and I believe I have said this before '. t in supporting a petition on behalf of bad roads - I am wondering perhaps if the highways crews throughout this ' Province could not be doing a better job in trying to maintain these roads in a better condition. Mr. Speaker, last week I went to my district down in Southwest Arm, nine communities on a nineteen mile stretch of road. I went down to a meeting.

The next day I came back and I 'phoned the local foreman and asked him, 'How often is this road graded~' because it was in terrible condition.Ana I nearly cried, Mr. Speaker, having to travel over that road in a 1970 Ford pickup with 116,000 miles on it and the thing nearly fell apart. So I 'phoned the foreman the next morning and I asked, 'When was the road graded last? I was down there last night and I have to go down again next week. I was down last night as a matter of fact, to another meeting down that way.' And the foreman said that the grader is on the road every day. Well, Mr.

Speaker, last night travelling over that road again!- I do not doubt that the grader is on the road every day, but if I get a chance later on this morning I want to 'phone that foreman again and ask him would he tell the grader operator to put down the blade this time! Put down the blade! No good to have the grader on it driving back and forth 1 drop the blade and let us get rid of some of these potholes that exist. And I am talking about that one, but I am sure the same situation exists- there is a joke throughout this Province, and whether the joke is

May 12, 1978 Tape 3081 EC - 3 MR. CALLAN: j ustified or not I do not know . · You know, there is a joke - an awful lot of people call this building the Conglo~eration Building because of the large numbers of people who do not seem to be doing anything, because you have to wait two yea rs and thre; years for a piece of Crown land to be settled and this sort of thing, four or five months for a Rural Development Authority loan to be approved. And there is another joke regarding highways - an old fellow goes to work with the Highways, he is gone to his eternal rest. And whether these jokes are justified or not, Mr.

Speaker, I do not know, but I somet~mes wonder if the highways crews cannot be doing a better job to maintain these roads. Now we know that there are limited funds for reconstruction and paving this year as in other years - $15 million, 'l· I i ••

Hay 12, 1978 Tape No. 3082 Jl1 - 1 MR. CALLAN: I believe and perhaps this road cannot be done this year. Perhaps the road cannot be paved. Perhaps the roads in my district cannot be paved but I am wondering can they not be maintained in a better condition~ I noticed the contract call a few days ago for 300 miles, calcium chloride for 300 miles of dirt road in this Province. I think last year there was a contract called for 400 miles of dirt road in this Province, a contract call for calcium chloride. This no doubt, Mr. Speaker, is good stuff. It keeps down the dust especially.It is good on reconstructed road.

I am told that if it is put on a road that is not reconstructed you suffer the next spring because the calcium chloride gets into the road and the next spring you suffer doubly because the road breaks up quite easily where the calcium chloride is in it. Now that is the reason that I have been given when I asked to have calcium chloride put on a road in my district.

I have been told that while the reason it is put ~n this road is because the road is reconstructed, it can take the calcium chloride and it is ready for paving.~_ut ,the other road is not reconstructed so ·if the people want to go to the axles in mud next spring,sure we will give them calcium chloride. So I hope, Ur.

Speaker, that this road, this twelve mile · stretch of road in Seal Cove in Fortune Bay if it cannot be paved that at least it can be maintained in a half decent condition and)as I said 7 calcium chloride put there to at least alleviate the dust problem which exists naturally on all gravel roads not only in this Province 1 but everywhere else. Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition by the 282 people in Seal Cove and,of course 1 I know that they deserve it from what the member outlined there)the numbers of people that travel on this highway, on this piece of road.

I do not know how many communities are involved. Perhaps there is only one and perhaps in the list of priorities perhaps it is not way up there. It would not be up there 7for example 1like the Southwest Arm Road where you have a nineteen mile stretch of road with nine communities. That has to be ·a priority. It has to be a priority and I know and I think I know • ~ I f _. ~~ ' I l ~ I

l1ay 12, 1978 Tape No. 3082 JM- 2 MR. CALLAN: that when the final decision is made regarding what roads will be paved and reconstructed this year that the Southwest Arm Road that leads down to Southport will be included in the minister's list. Obviously it will be. You know there is no rational,sensible reason why it should not be. And as I said if the money cannot be allocate for twelve miles of road for these people I hope that for their sake the calcium chloride will be put there and that the road will be maintained in a decent condition by proper maintenance, by the maintenace crew.

I support the petition, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I wish to go on record in support of the petition presented by the hon. member for Fortune-Hermitage. As the member for Bellevue pointed out there are still many dirt or gravel roads in thiA Province.

As a matter of fact,the r~ason that spurs me really to get up this morning on this petition is that in my own district of Green Bay th-l.s morning there are two roads washed out and there are upwards to two to three hundred who are stranded right now because - and these are dirt roads,of course,that are washed out. They have not been reconstructed and proper bridges and culverts and so on have not been installed and hence it has caused a lot of problems. I am familiar with the road that the han. member mentions or that the petition mentions as presented by the hon. member.

I know that that >thole area now you can drive fairly well from Bishops Falls turnoff down to Bay d 1Espoir. But then 1when you turn off almost just before you get to Bay d'Espoir and start going down towards Harbour Breton and Hermitage and so onJand Seal Cove and that whole area,that is the next area that now has to be addressed.

And when as the hon. member points out very, very well the people of Seal Cove in his district are some of the top workers in this Province and I know that to be true because many of the people from Seal Cove who worked with Price (Nfld.) are pretty good friends of people who worked with Price (Nfld ·.) from Green Bay district in the Triton area and I hear it all the time about the great workers from . : •. l

May 12, 1978 Tape No. 3082 JM- 3 MR. PECKFORD: the Seal Cove area. And not only in Seal Cove where you have a lot of real good workers and people who are working in the lumber industry but that whole area down there of Harbour Breton and Hermitage. The economic life of that area is very vibrant right now and looking down the road there is no way to see otherwise. I think that whole area down there, down that penninsula there, has a great future and we have to as a government , address ourselves to that problem. Now I think myself, Mr.

Speaker, that the road from off the Bay d'Espoir road down to Harbour Breton should be a major secondary road and that that should come under a DREE programme.

Now as we are getting sort of the big, big trunk secondary roads done like the Great Northern Peninsula and well,for example~the LaScie road if I am not mistaken was a DREE road - not the Baie Verte Highway road, that was a DREE road too, The road from the Trans-Canada to Baie Verte,to put a major thoroughfare down on that peninsula was a DREE road but also the road off the Baie Verte Peninsula road down to LaScie was considered such a major secondary road with the fish plant down there and other communities that it was also funded l i l i

May 12, 1978 Tape 3083 PK ~ 1 Mr. Peckford: federally-provincially. And I think myself that the road from the Bay d •·Espoir Highway to Harbour Breton should be considered a secondary road and included under a DREE subsidiary agreement for highway const+Uction. Then that would give the Province greater flexibility in its own programme to do the other road M1 RON. MEMBER: Millions of dollars • MR. PECKFORD: Right. Exactly. And that is what it has got to be connected to. It has got to be connected to resource development.

And if,as Ottawa always talks about,this business of DREE is where it can be demonstrated that it has some economic consideration to it, well then surely the road to Harbour Breton to open up that peninsula the Southwest Road or whatever - AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. PECKFORD: I do not know off the top of my head. All I am saying is that I think the best way to get at reconstruction of the road in the Seal Cove area, and even the Southwest Arm as the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr.

Callan) mentioned is to get additional funds under subsidiary agreements with DREE for these other secondary roads that have in the last ten years or so really come into their own as economic viable units . Albeit they are a long way from the centre of provincial capital or the centre of power whatever you want to call it, ~ut they are the areas that are really coming into their own, and the same way as Fogo Island is or Twillingate or other fishing areas or St. Anthony and on it goes.

So I think the next part of any DREE programme would have to include such roads as the one mentioned by the hon. the member in his petition~ Not, perhaps specifically that road to Seal Cove but will faciliate getting the Seal Cove Road done, if that other main secondary road to Harbour Breton that opens up that whole peninsula is considered as a DREE road. So I fully support the petition cognizant of the fact that there are many parts of this Province both in my district, and the hon. the member for Fortune-Hermitage's (Mr. J.

Winsor) district and the hon. member for Bellevue's district where we still have dirt roads, gravel roads that are now in 1978, even though they might i r

May 12, 1978 Tape 3083 PK - 2 Mr. Peckford: not have been in 1960 leading to very, very prosperous communities that are contributing in a real major way to the lifeblood now of the economy of this Province. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. the member for the Bay of Islands, MR. L. WOODROW: I would like to support the petition so ably presented by my friend from the Bav d' Espoir - Harbour Breton area. In fact,I spent almost eight years in that area when the only way to go anywhere was by boat. And I was just pleased when I heard the · bon. member for Green Bay (Mr.

Peckford) point out the importance of the Harbour Breton and Seal Cove area and the like. Of course, this 1vas brought about at a great meeting held here in St. John's in 1956, and I happened to be privileged to be present at that meeting when they decided to build a fish plant at Harbour Breton, and get the hydro going for Bay d~Espoir. I think the substance of the petition was to upgrade and pave if necessary twelve miles of road in ~his area.

Now I happened to drive down last year over the Bay d'Espoir road and on to Harbour Breton, and again I would certainly endorse the sentiments of the member for Green Bay when he said that there should be some great DREE programme or some other means found to upgrade and pave that portion of the road, I think, it is forty-seven miles from the Bay d'Espoir Road into Harbour Breton, because it is a very important place at the moment. And I do not think there is anybody in Harbour Breton who is unemployed. The hon. member talked about Seal Cove. I remember, Mr.

Speaker, about ten or fifteen years ago, seeing the people from Seal Cove, the young men used to go away every year and work in the woods and the like. And I do not think even at that time- probably now there is hardly any unemployment in that area. Of course, I too have certain roads in my district. In fact, at the present time I am working with the Department of Municipal Affairs to try to get some work done I I l "i

May 12, 1978 Tape No. 3084 JM- 1 MR. WOODROW: on a byroad over in Summerside and,of course,there are many other hon. gentlemen in this House, Mr. Speaker, who must have similar problems and,of course,the problem is_ monev. We have only so much money to go around and as a result of that there is only so much work that can be done. But I would refer back again to my hon. colleague from Grand Falls. He has put on the Order Paper a motion that we should really get after Ottawa to try to get Term 2~ put in ,1978 dollars. MR. CALLAN: A point of order, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. CALLAN: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I rather doubt that the hon. gentleman from Bay of Islands is being relevant there. He is talking about Term 29 and so on. I am wondering possibly if it is not a stall to try and avoid the Question Period this morning. I think he should be more relevant, MR. SPEAKER: Order please! On that point of order the hon. gentleman in my understanding is is referrin~ to financing of road building and is suggesting that there might be ways of getting additional financing so I would not state that it was irrelevant in the sense in which that word is understood and practised by hon. members on both sides.

The hon. member. MR. i¥wDROW: Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what I am saying. I think that I would go so far as to say that I believe that our next - MR. CALLAN: Could we have a quorum call, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A quorum is called.

May 12, 1978 Tape 3085 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER: I am informed that a quorum is pres.ent. The quorum call has had the effect of consuming the time·. The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. McNEIL: Mr. Speaker, I want to stand in support of the petition of 282 people for the community of Seal Cove, Fortune Bay, who have requested the government to repair the road - there are only twelve miles of road in their community. As was pointed out by my hon. colleague from Fortune - Hermitage, the road is the only means of physical communication and the community depends on that road heavily. Mr.

Speaker, I see no reason why in this day and age the government could not keep this road up to an acceptable standard if it cannot be paved at this moment. And I think that possibly even the twelve miles of pavement could be done and I do not think that would break the government in its current financial position. Mr. Speaker, I gladly support the petition and I hope that the government will act upon it quickly. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. George's. MRS. MciSAAC: Mr. Speaker, I rise to say a ·- r couple of words in support of the petition.

I was not here when the petition was presented, but from listening to the other speakers I have got the gist of it and -I I just want to say that I support the petition, and in fact, would support any petition with respect to roads. And that is all I will say at this time since I was not ·'" here to listen to it. I support the petition. ,.: ..,: I ., :I ..

May 12, 1978 Tape 3085 EC - 2 NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr: Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Enable The Golden Eagle (Canada) Limited To Become A Federal Corporation," and I also give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to move the House into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions in relation to the granting of supply to Her Majesty for the financial year ending March 31, 1979.

And on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of Public Works and Services I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Social Assistance Act, 1977." MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the - Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Municipal Affairs And Housing Act, 1973." ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Fortune - Hermitage. MR. J. WINSOR: My question is directed to the bon. the Minister of Justice.

I notice by the paper this morning that charges have been laid against an individual as a result of a police investigation into matters raised. last May by the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, my colleague, the hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons). And my question is this, Why was there no representative of the Crown present when the case was called yesterday? . I j· j •

Hay 12, 1978 Tape 3085 EC - 3 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Before recognizing the hon. the Hinister of Justice, I would point out that the matter of substantive issues is sub judice. I am not here saying that that specific question is, because I understand that as a question within an administrative framework or procedural framework, but I do point out that from the substantive point of view the matter would be sub judice. The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I will obviously have to be very restricted in my answers to any matter that is before the court.

The position is that the charges in question were laid by the appropriate Crown Prosecutor a week ago, returnable yesterday. It was. known as a result of information given to the Crown Prosecutor by Counsel for the accused that his client was not within the jurisdiction of this court within the Province, but was within Canada and that he will be appearing in court next week. And it was known in advance that nothing would happen on Thursday, yesterday, j l I i J ~I I ·I· ~

,. Hay 12,1978 Tape No. 3086 AH-1 MR. HICKMAN: _other than the reading of the charge and consequently there was no point in council being present nor was it necessary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.J.WINSOR: Does the Crown know the whereabouts of Mr. Walsh, the gentleman named in this case who did not appear when the case was called? Is the minister aware of where Mr. Walsh is? Do you place any priority on this case? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, we are getting dangerously close beyond the administrative procedure now.

Tae Crown gives exactly and precisely the same attention to this case as every other criminal case that falls within our jurisdiction and I repeat that I am assured by the Director of Public Prosecutions that the accused will be present next week in the Magistrate's Court in St. John's to answer to the charges. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the bon. Minister of Fisheries.

Is the minister aware of the fact that at this present time or at this present moment out in Placentia Bay on Merasheen Island-I also believe,perhaps>in the minister's own district,that there should be at least under construction a couple of federal projects, federal wharves and because of the possibility that the company Metro Engineering owned by AB Walsh is on the verge of bankruptcy or alleged to be,therefore these projects are way behind scheduler Is ' che minister aware of that, number one and if so what - ~tR. W. CAB.TER: That is a federal matter. MR.

CALLAN: I know it is a federal matter, I know these are federal wharveS ';' but what is the provincial Minister of Fisheries doing to help alleviate the problems experienced by these fishermen who cannot use these facilities because they are Hay behind schedule? They should have been finished long ago except for the fact that AB lvalsh and Metro Engineering have been lagging and dragging their f t .

}lay 12,1978 Tape No. 3086 AH-2 HR.CALLA.'il: heels on that. Perhaps the minister could make a few comments and also indicate what he as the ~tlnister of Fisheries is doing to alleviate any hardship by the fishermen who use these facilities. MR. SPEAKE!i: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR.W.CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the interest being shown by our colleague opposite. I am very much aware of the problem being encountered by the fishermen who now fish on Merasheen Island, most of whom were, by the way, resettled some years ago and are now going back to fish on tbe islands.

The wharf being built is a federal responsibility, it is a contract that was awarded sometime last year, .last Fall to1 I think it is called,Metro Engineering Construction. I was informed by my colleague for Placentia about a month or so ago that work was not progressing as planned on its construction. I have since sent my Assistant Deputy Minister to the island to discuss the problem with the fishermen there. We have since made strong representation to the Federal Department of Small Crafts and Harbours in public works dUU the last word I have nn it was to the effect that work had st~pped up on the wharf.

I think last week they haa something like eight people working t;!.ere and if they can keep that kind of progress going it might well be that something will be in place in time for t~is year's fishery. Certainly 1 in so far as what the Province can do we are doing all we can in that we are oressuring to thP. best of our ability the people wh~ are responsible but certainly as a Province we cannot possibly afford to get involved in the construction of wharves, slipways and breakwaters.

These are matters that are strictly the responsibility of Ottawa and it would be a very serious thing for us to do, to start encroaching on their jurisdiction in that respect because it would be costly and~in fact 1 it is the sort of thing that there would probably be no end to. But in answering the member's question,everything that can be done by the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) myself and the department has been done. ' I -·

}Jay l.t ,l!/71! ·r ape Ho . 3086 AH-3 ~Oi1E HON ~lDlBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. CALLAN: I am glad to hear that, Hr. Speaker , as the minister probably knows people from my dis trict also use the facilities on Marasheen Island so I am glad to bear that the minister is keeping an eye on it. Now the fact that there were eight people out there last week 7of course 7 :is no indication that there will be eight next week and I want to get the assurance fJ<om the minister that an eye is kept on it .

I say there might not be eight people next week because I know people from my own district - a couple of divers who worked on these projects are owed $3, u00 and the only i I I . j ! I l L , ,

May 12, 1978 Tape No. 3087 JM- 1 MR. CALLAN: way they are going to get their money is because the company is bonded.They will get their money sometime in July they have been told by Federal Public Works. So the fact that they were working this week is no indication that they might be there next week. So I am asking,can we have the assurance then of the minister that an eye will be kept on it? And perhaps of the recent developments last night and so on with this man and this company, this man who owns this company, some interim measures can be taken. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W.

CARTER: I can only repeat what I said a moment ago that I have no jurisdiction whatever over the building of that wharf. I will certainly keep an eye on it and I am sure that the member for the district of Placentia will be keeping an eye on it. In fact 1 I suppose, we have talked about it every day or just about every day for the past month and we have made numerous telephone c~lls and like I said we did follow it up by sending one of my assistant deputies to the island. But we will be following it up. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for the Straits of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, a question for the Minister of Public Works and Services which grows out of the Crown's action in bringing charges against Mr. A.B. Walsh but it is not related to the case in any direct or substantive way. My question, Sir, is this: It is obvious that the procedures in the department in purchasing were less than acceptable, a fact which was first revealed by the Auaitor General a year or so ago in his report to the House,and a fact which was further exposed by the Public Accounts Committee under the chairmanship of my colleague, the gentleman from Burgee-Bay d'Espoir.

What I would like to know.·~ specifically from the minister is what steps he has taken to prevent a recurrence of the situation which gave rise to the set of facts upon which the Crown has based the criminal charges against Mr. Walsh in this matter. MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. DOODY: Hr. Speaker, I went through the detail on the system .. ! t l ~I I

l1ay 12, 1978 Tape No. 3087 JM - 2 MR. DOODY: ~hat is now in place down in the Department of Public Works during the estimates. I can get an update on that for hon. members and bring it in in detail and present it to the House. The situation now as I recall it is an amount of allocated funds under $1,000 for emergency or other purposes has to be authorized by one .. . of several designated senior officials of the ·department. The system some years ago or sometime ago was simply the matter of a telephone call to an individual firm or company to get the department committed to such projects or repair work ·.

This has been, as I say, changed, The work order system is completely revamped and revitalized. They are having considerable strides made in that direction durin2 the past year,particularily since the appointment of Mr. John ~~alen as the deputy minister. I mean no disrespect to his precedessors or to his colleagues in the department but Mr.

Whalen's experience and knowledge in that area has been invaluable and he. has put into effect in the department a considerable number of changes since his appointment and I think that during the coming months and during the coming years the result of them will be seen very clearly. l1R. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Can the minister tell the House whether the Department of Public Works which he administers has now any contractual work ongoing with A.B.

Walsh Electric Limited or for that matter any of the firms the princip~l owner of whom is the gentleman who has been charged with the criminal offences in this matter? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. minister. l ~ I l MR. DOODY: Yes, I understand there are some contracts ongoing with A.B. Walsh Electric. MR. ROBERTS: Are the~ contracts~contractsbids or are they these r work order situations? MR. DOODY: Bids, tenders, public tender bids. And also another company with which the gentleman is associated,! think,·~ ~tares

}lay 12, 1978 Tupe No. 3087 JM - 3 HR . 'ROBERTS;_ • _ St~ Mechanical. ~fR. DOODY: 'stares Mechanical also have ongoing work. I think that gentleman is the principal of that firm as well. Both of these jobs were public tender jobs and both of them were awarded t.o these companies on open tender at public openings of the tender. HR. ROBERTS: On low bids . :1R • .DOODY: On low bids, that is right. ~IR. ROBERTS: A further supplementary, Sir . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: The minister dealt with the question of ,let us call them c:ontrac:ts whicb were ·bid .

I do not know the details of this case and I am not permitted to comment on them thougb..._sho.uld . L.h.e_but there ·- -· • t • j •.I I I. 1 ': ~ . ~ I .... ; [ J -. ~ '

t May 12, 1978 Tape 3088 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: is another category of work.and I know the Auditor General '.s comments two or three years ago and the attention of the Public Accountants Committee focused on the other type of arrangement into which the department enters and that is the work order or the more or less emergency situation. Is there any work ongoing now involving Mr.

Walsh's companies, on one hand and the department on o l! the other,of that nature as opposed to the type to which the minister just spoke where, you know, bids would be invited and there would be an opening and the lowest respectable bidder, in this case Mr. Walsh•s companies,would get the worki MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Transportation and Communications, MR. DOODY: To the best of my knowledge, Sir, there is no such work. The only work that I know of that Mr. Walsh's companies are involved in or are engaged in at the present time are the tendered contracts which I mentioned earlier. MR.

ROBERTS: May I have a further supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A further supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, 1-fr. Walsh's companies - 'l.nd the charges I note have been laid against. Mr. Walsh, not involving any company, to whatever extent it ,is possible to lay a criminal charge against ·a company_, so I draw that distinction -- Mr. Walsh's companies,to my knowledge, are not before the courts in any sense involved here. There may be some civil actions. The Town of Tor bay and the Town of Pouch Cove are both involved in civil actions, but this is irrelevant to this entirely. Mr.

Walsh's companies did receive a great deal of work from the government, from Public Works over the last two or three years under these work orders. And the minister tells us, and I am glad of his assurance,that there is a new system in place to prevent any abuses that may have occurred And I am not speaking of criminal matters, I am speaking of abuses only can the minister t'ell us whether he has issued instructions and if he has not, can he tell us why? And will he issue instructions ttlat ' until this matter is resolved~Mr, Walsh's trial has been held and the matter has been disposed of by the courts in

~.ay 12, 1978 Tape 3088 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: the proper way, that no further work will hP ~ivPn t~ the companies with which he is involved, MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. DOODY: I think, Sir, that under the public tendering process that Mr. Walsh and his companies - MR. ROBERTS: I do not mean public tendering, the work contracts. MR. DOODY: Oh well the work contracts are - we certainly can give that assurance. MR. ROBERTS: Dia the minister sav he conlcl aiv" t:!>" ~c:!'!•lr ~~c~? MR. DOODY: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: Okay. MR.

DOODY: There is really no - the system down there in the department now is an index which has been compiled over a period of time.

I described it to the House during the estimate period, advertisements were placed in all of the major and most of the minor newspapers in the the Province informing the trades in various parts of the Province , various type of contracting companies, mechanical, electrical, masonry and so on , of the intention of the department to compile such an index 7 and it is a huge volume 1 it is down on the deputy minister's desk, in which he has broken dm~ hv geographic area of the Province, and also by trade designation, so that in jobs of $1,000 or les~ the officials of the department are required to telephone at least three companies in that particular area.

If there is a repair job going on in St. Anthony and there are three - MR. ROBERTS: If there are three companies, MR. DOODY: - companies in that area they will phone the three of them and get three prices and give them to the lowest caller, the lowest quotation. MR. ROBERTS: Would Mr. Walsh's companies be one of tho s e three companies in that area? That is really what I am after. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Public Works and Services. . ~ ~-I! ~~ -II ,, i '1: I ~ II r ! i ~ .:J .. I

May 12, 1978 Tape 3088 PK ~ 3 MR. DOODY: My information from the department is that they have been very, very careful about Mr. Walsh's companies during the past several months. MR. ROBERTS: Will they be a little more careful now? MR. DOODY: I would suspect they will be a great deal more circumspect under the circumstances. ·. MR. ROBERTS: Then they should just put the man on a special list until the matter is resolved. MR. DOODY: It is a difficult thing. The man has not been convicted of anything that I am aware of at this point. MR. ROBERTS: And he may not be. MR. DOODY: And I sincerely hope that he is not.

So one hesitates to discrimate against somebody before the law has had an opportunity to examine the details of the case, But as I have said MR. ROBERTS: No, no, people are normally - I mean if one of the minister's officials were suspect - MR. DOODY: As I have said earlier MR. ROBERTS: Re would be suspended. MR. DOODY: Well I have already given you that point, Sir, to that effect. MR. ROBERTS:- One further supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: Because I think, Mr. Speaker, it is an important matter, and I would like for the minister - I am not prejudging Mr.

Walsh in any way, I mean the courts will decide that issue and we will see. What will be will be, and so it should be,- is the minister satisfied that the system now in place is reasonabl~ adequate and that is all the minister could be to prevent a recurrence of the tjpe of events which have given rise to the situation with which we are now faced? To my knowledge this is the first time since Confederation at least that criminal charges of this nature have had to be laid in people dealing with the government{ MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services.

May 12, 1978 Tape 3089 EC - 1 MR. DOODY: W@ are reasonably satisfied that - well, the system has tremendously improved as Mr. l~helan has pointed out. It still has some gaps, some problem areas, some cracks and gaps that he would like to fill and will tighten up during the coming months. It is a vastly improved system over what it was up to a year or so ago~ it has been improving. I mentioned the index area. I also mentioned the fact that the $15,000 limit over which public tenders must be called has. been by - MR., ROBERTS : A firm $15,000. MR. DOODY: No.-by deputy minister's order it is a firm $12,000.

He had discovered that he was running into problems on $14,999 plus an overrun, so he has 20 per cent leeway in there which gives him that. AN RON. MEMBER: A very solid man. MR. DOODY: And on areas between the $1,000, which I mentioned earlier and the $12,000, the same index is used, but written proposals are demanded from at least three companies. This index and the people who are written or called depending on the $1,000 or up to $12,000 are monitored by the ADM every two weeks and the list is monitored by the DM every month to make sure - AN RON. MEMBER: And the Auditor General everv year, MR.

HICKMAN: Well, hopefully, but certainly it has been done to make sure that there is no discrimination or that one name does not keep popping into prominence in a particular area, in a particular trade or particular job. So they are having considerable tightenings, considerable administrative changes and improvements. I think there is probably room for more, but I have no doubt that they will be all put into effect. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Terra Nova. · j • ·.I .:. t -ij I; ...

May 12, 1978 Tape 3089 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for ' the Minister of Transportation and Communications. I wonder if the minister is aware that the Director of Air Services flew to Texas - I think it was Texas - to either fly up or to accompany the pilot who was flying up a helicopter for Sealand Airways Limited or Sealand Helicopters Limited, whatever the title of that company is? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I became aware of it after the event.

The gentleman in question was using his annual leave at his own expense, but in the meantime he has received a letter from the deputy minister suggesting to him that it might be construed as a conflict of interest position and has been instructed not to have a repeat performance of that type of operation. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. LUSH: With relationship to the Director of Air Services, can the minister indicate to the House whether the Director .of Services had put in his request for annual leave prior to this situation? MR.

DOODY: To the best of my knowledge this is so. I talked about it with the deputy minister and the impression that I received from him,without actually asking that direct question 1 was that this was the case. I may be mistaken on that but I believe that that is so. MR. ROBE!tTS: A further Rupplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. DOODY: I think it is standard procedure I l . 1 ! . 1 ·! '! I~

~fay 12, 1978 Tape 3089 EC - 3 MR. DOODY: to apply for annual leave to be taken. MR. ROBERTS: No, I do not argue with that answer at all. What I want to know is this; The minister told us in response to my colleague's query - and I must say, the first I heard of it was when my colleague asked the question - that the deputy minister had told the Director of Air Services please not to do it again, In effect, I mean, 'You have not done anything wrong, but there is a possibility it does not look right.

Civil servants, particularly the man who is in charge of administering Air Services ought not to be going to Texas,even at his own expense,and coming back in a helicopter owned by a company that charters these helicopters~ That is what the minister was saying, I think. And then the minister told us that the director had done it on his owu time, and what the man does on his own time is his own concern and I agree with that. And then the minister tells us that the Director of Air Services had made a prior request for annual leave - it was not after the event - which was fair and right and proper.

I want to know now whether when the Director put in his request for annual leave he gave any indication of what he had in mind? And it would not be unusual to say, ' I am going to go down to Texas to come back on a helicopter. I want to see how they work,' or whatever you want to say, 'I will have to take three or four days annual leave.' MR. DOODY: The answer that I will have to give the han. House, Sir, is that my impression from my conversation with the deputy minister was that there was no indication that this was the purpose of the annual I I l I I ~ . i i i I :I I

Hay 12, 1978 Tape 3089 EC - 4 ~1R. DOODY: leave or the trip. I do not think he explained a~d I do not think he was asked. It is not standard procedure to ask, and it was only after the • ~ I . i I

May 12, 1978 Tape No. 3090 JM- l MR. DOODY: fact,my understanding is-that the department became aware of this and the subsequent action that I described was taken MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the original questioner. MR. LUSH: Hr. Speaker, I was just wondering whether the minister can enlighten us as to whether or not the Director of Air Services ., ._ : has a second annual leave because my understanding is that the Director of Air Services is now vacationing somewhere in Antigua somewhere. So were there two annual leaves? What is the