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April 3, 1990

34th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

COURT FACILITIES

DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED

RIDING OF CORNWALL

NON-GLARE LIGHTING

SOCIAL WORK

SCOUTING IN CANADA

RED SQUIRREL ROAD

CONSTITUTIONAL ACCORD

MARKHAM STOUFFVILLE HOSPITAL

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

TORONTO WATERFRONT DEVELOPMENT

TECHNOLOGICAL TRAINING

RESPONSES

TORONTO WATERFRONT DEVELOPMENT

TECHNOLOGICAL TRAINING

TORONTO WATERFRONT DEVELOPMENT

TECHNOLOGICAL TRAINING

ORAL QUESTIONS

GOODS AND SERVICES TAX

MINISTRY OFFICIALS’ ACTIONS

CHILDREN’S MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

RENT REGULATION

SPORTS COUNCILS

TAXATION

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

HOUSING FOR THE DISABLED

TRANSIT SERVICES

CHILD CARE

CLOSING OF CAMPGROUNDS

HEALTH CARDS

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

TIRE TAX

PETITIONS

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

HEALTH PROFESSIONS

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

RIDING OF PRINCE EDWARD-LENNOX

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

HEALTH PROFESSIONS

HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION

CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

ENERGY AMENDMENT ACT, 1990

POWERS OF ATTORNEY AMENDMENT ACT, 1990

NATURAL DEATH ACT, 1990

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

COURT FACILITIES

Mr Kormos: On 30 March 1990 the Ministry of Labour, pursuant to the Occupational Health and Safety Act, effectively shut down the provincial courtroom in Niagara Falls, one of the satellite courts in the judicial district of Niagara South. The reason was that it was unsafe for both the public and the police force because prisoners in custody and the public share the same corridors and public areas.

That courthouse is being used and has been used five days a week hearing criminal trials, family court matters, small claims court and youth court matters. Many of the people in criminal court matters, and indeed perhaps even more so in youth court matters, are necessarily in custody. These people will no longer have their trials in that provincial courthouse. The approximately 100 to 120 accused persons who are scheduled to appear in that provincial court on Thursday of this week will not have a courtroom ready there to receive them.

Personnel for the Attorney General are calling defence counsel and saying, “Would you please advise your clients to attend at the St Catharines courthouse?” in another jurisdiction. That is simply not acceptable and the Attorney General should know better. They are telling defence counsel that bail hearings are going to be held in the bowels of the police station where the public is not admitted. That is simply not acceptable and the Attorney General should know better.

The Attorney General knew there was a crisis in Niagara with respect to courtroom facilities long before 30 March 1990. It is about time he did something about it.

DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED

Mrs Cunningham: We have all heard this government state that it is committed to deinstitutionalization. The special services at home program was initiated to demonstrate that institutionalization could be avoided with the appropriate supports in the home. Without this essential service, many families with disabled children would be forced to consider placing their children in institutions.

Last May the former Minister of Community and Social Services promised the public that he would broaden the support, not only to families that have developmentally handicapped children but also to those same families whose handicapped children become adults and to families who have physically handicapped children as well.

Many families can benefit from this support service. I urge the minister to fulfil the promise and address this issue as a priority within his budget. Families have been waiting too long for this government to act on its promise. We are all aware of the facts. Institutionalization is far more expensive than parental relief. This parental relief program must not be seen as a cost to society. It should be viewed as an investment in the future of many handicapped citizens and as a program that allows such people to remain in the much preferred setting of the family rather than in an institution.

RIDING OF CORNWALL

Mr Cleary: I represent an area of the province that many times suggests it is forgotten by Toronto. Perhaps one should note that it is in eastern Ontario that much of our rich heritage can be found. The oldest grammar school can be found in the city of Cornwall as well as one of our older churches.

I am proud to represent the riding of Cornwall, which also sports a fair portion of the St Lawrence Parks Commission. Each year the parks attract thousands of visitors to camp and stay for a day. We also have the Robert Saunders generating station, a huge hydro complex that draws hundreds of people each day to see an example of Canada-US co-operation.

As well, there is the north and south span of the Seaway International Bridge stretching between Cornwall and Massena. New York state is one of the major gateways for people coming into Ontario from the United States.

Yet the lure of my riding is not only for the Americans; we also have the pleasure of hosting other international visitors and Canadians alike.

I am sure the members will appreciate that the tourist information offices record thousands of requests each year from all over the world for information on Ontario. That obviously includes the many specific requests from Cornwall and the surrounding area.

I would like to extend an invitation to experience the warm welcome in eastern Ontario.

NON-GLARE LIGHTING

Mr Wildman: What is wrong with the Minister of Transportation? How is it the minister is unaware, despite the fact that the township of MacDonald, Meredith and Aberdeen Additional -- Echo Bay -- has been attempting to persuade the Ministry of Transportation to erect non-glare lights on the Echo Bay bridge on Highway 17 for some years? How is it that the Minister of Transportation is not aware? Why is it that we have repeated accidents with whiteouts every winter and fog in that location in the spring and the fall, quite normal, and yet the Ministry of Transportation refuses to act?

Last year the ministry refused to install lighting, saying it did not have any proper lights that would effect proper visibility. This year it refused once again, and just within a week of the ministry again refusing there was a five-car pile-up in a whiteout on the Echo Bay bridge.

It is obvious action must be taken by the Ministry of Transportation. It is unfortunate the minister seems to be unaware of the situation. I do not know what is wrong with his staff or with his office, but somehow we have to get the minister lighted up.

SOCIAL WORK

Mr Harris: I wish to draw the attention of the members of this assembly to the need for a Social Work Act in Ontario. This matter has been under review for four years now and the minister’s response is long overdue.

The Ontario Association of Professional Social Workers, the Ontario College of Certified Social Workers and an impressive coalition of 50 organizations, including the Ontario Association of Children’s Aid Societies, the Ontario Association of Family Service Agencies and the Association of Children’s Mental Health Centres, representing thousands of service providers and tens of thousands of service recipients, are still waiting for a decision.

Ontario is the only province in Canada without some form of regulation for the practice of social work. The consequences of unregulated social work are unacceptable, frightening and at times tragic. We have had many horror stories documented by the media and service providers themselves, and yet after years of intensive discussion and review the minister still refuses to act.

What could be more important than protecting children, families and those in need of care? The people of Ontario deserve an explanation as to why the Peterson government refuses to give priority to this important matter. At the very least the time has come for the minister to get off the fence, make a decision and present the people of Ontario with a timetable for action.

SCOUTING IN CANADA

Mr Pelissero: Adam Pelissero is a member of the First Jordan Cub Pack. Tonight he and I will be attending the annual parent and son banquet and I would like to pay tribute today to the cub and scout movement in Ontario.

It was over 80 years ago now that Christopher Corliss, a single father with a son, became inspired by the writings of Baden-Powell and began stopping boys in the streets of Toronto to discuss scouting.

Scouts began meeting in the old armouries on University Avenue and marching behind military parades. By 1909 scouts were meeting across Toronto in schools, homes and even railway boxcars.

Lord Baden-Powell devoted the majority of his life to the promotion of a world brotherhood through the scouting movement. He believed no better way of world brotherhood could be found than by enrolling future citizens of various countries and different languages in the boy scout movement, which knows no national boundaries.

The history of Canadian scouting is a litany of good deeds, community services and acts of heroism.

Today scouting also includes Beavers, between the ages of five and eight, and Venturers, between the ages of 14 and 17. Age groups have been narrowed to allow boys to develop at their own pace -- boys and girls, that is; Venturers and Rovers are both co-ed groups today. These and other changes have been in response to a changing society.

I encourage all members of the Legislature to join with me in recognizing this vital organization.

RED SQUIRREL ROAD

Mr Wildman: When is a road officially a road? In December the Ontario government announced that construction of the Red Squirrel Road was completed. On 21 December the cabinet quietly passed an order in council extending construction of the road, while telling the public it was finished.

The order states that “since factors beyond the control of the Ministry of Natural Resources delayed completion,” it had to be issued. The order states further that the following impacts were considered in making a decision to approve an extension: economic viability of sawmills, negative impact on other businesses and negative impacts on local communities.

Business and industry were the focus of two out of the three considerations. Since the native community opposes construction of the road, consideration appears to have been given only to non-native communities. Once again the natives have been considered irrelevant.

The order’s existence means the Ministry of Natural Resources intends to be out on the road as soon as weather permits. It does prohibit the use of the road by logging trucks until the work is done. There is likely to be significant environmental damage due to spring runoffs, so to prevent further damage full construction will not begin until the runoff is completed. This means the Ontario government must officially declare the road finished once again, even though it said it was done in December. Why the secrecy about this order in council?

CONSTITUTIONAL ACCORD

Mr Eves: Mr Speaker, as you are undoubtedly aware, the all-important date of 23 June is only 80 days away. No, I am not referring to the Liberal national convention -- I said “important date.” The date to which I refer is that for ratification of the Meech Lake accord.

Members of this House, at least those who were paying attention, may recall the minority recommendations of our party in the select committee on constitutional reform. Those recommendations were intended to provide a bridge by which the Premier might attempt to meet some of the objections of other provinces with regard to the accord, ones that he finds interesting now that they are brought forward by Premier McKenna, I might add. He voted against them in this House; that is on record.

Those recommendations included a reference to the Supreme Court of Canada on the effects of the accord on individual rights and freedoms, recognition of the multicultural nature of Canadian society and recognition that aboriginal peoples constitute a distinct and fundamental characteristic of Canada.

When we brought those recommendations forward, I must admit I was somewhat surprised that the Premier expressed little interest. I recently heard of his insensitivity towards native Canadians while speaking on racism before a group which included representatives of the native community.

Speaking before a recent conference on racism, the Premier told how it was his forefathers who built the nation and created a strong tradition of tolerance, despite the obvious representation of native groups in the audience and who initiated the tradition of tolerance in Canada. I had hoped that his oversight having been pointed out, he would have admitted his error.

I am no longer surprised that he would not consider an amendment to the accord that deals with aboriginal people.

MARKHAM STOUFFVILLE HOSPITAL

Mr Ballinger: On Saturday afternoon I had the pleasure, along with the Minister of Health and the member for Markham, to be a platform guest at the official opening of the newly completed Markham Stouffville Hospital.

For almost 20 years the residents of both the communities of Markham and Whitchurch-Stouffville never lost sight of their goal of obtaining a new hospital. Consequently, almost I ,000 interested citizens and special guests were also in attendance to join in the long-awaited celebration.

The Markham Stouffville Hospital is a result of a co-operative process involving the Ministry of Health, the region of York, the towns of Markham and Whitchurch-Stouffville, the hospital board and, most important, the residents of both communities.

The total cost of construction was $74 million, of which the Ministry of Health committed $44.6 million and the region of York contributed $22.3 million. The remaining $7 million was raised by the hard work and imagination of both the communities of Markham and Whitchurch-Stouffville.

Seven million dollars is a lot of money for any community to raise, especially since most of it was raised when the hospital was still nothing more than a dream. It speaks well about the determination of all the people involved who helped make this dream a long-awaited reality.

As the member of the Legislature for the riding of Durham-York, I want to add my personal congratulations and sincere best wishes to the hospital board on this very special occasion.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

TORONTO WATERFRONT DEVELOPMENT

Hon Mr Sweeney: My statement deals with an update on Harbourfront. Members will recall that on 13 December 1989 I imposed a ministerial zoning order on Toronto Harbourfront lands.

In imposing the zoning order I directed a provincial team under the direction of Duncan Allan, the special adviser to the Premier on Toronto waterfront development, to seek a better solution for Harbourfront, and I asked for a full report by 31 March. In light of that deadline and of recent media reports, I believe it would be appropriate to update the House.

Our provincial team had three objectives. First, access to the waterfront must be returned to the people of Ontario, meaning that the three “pipeline” projects south of Queen’s Quay had to be removed. Second, I agreed with many in the arts and cultural community that good programs should not depend on bad buildings. Harbourfront must be endowed sufficiently to permit its excellent core programming activities to continue. Third, the city of Toronto must be accorded fair treatment of its claims for park lands and revenues from the Harbourfront site.

I am pleased to inform this House that our report has achieved those objectives, which are consistent with David Crombie’s interim report on the future of Toronto’s waterfront.

On 23 March I presented the provincial report and its recommendations to the Honourable Elmer MacKay, federal Minister of Public Works. The minister asked for time to review the recommendations prior to their release to the public. I believe this was an appropriate request.

I have spoken with Toronto Mayor Art Eggleton to assure him that the objectives of the provincial recommendations -- returning the waterfront to public access, fully protecting valuable programs and addressing the city’s valid interests in park lands and revenues -- are clearly workable.

I have agreed to a request from the federal minister that the zoning order remain on the site until he and his officials have reviewed the provincial recommendations. Details of the report will be kept in confidence until the federal minister completes his review, expected within 30 days. I will further update the House when it is appropriate.

TECHNOLOGICAL TRAINING

Hon Mr Conway: This government recognizes the important role technology will play in ensuring Ontario’s prosperity in the changing labour market of the 1990s and beyond.

Ontario’s college system is a vital link in our education and training systems. It is at the college level that our students can build upon the basics learned in our elementary and secondary schools. Our colleges currently offer more than 400 technician and technologist programs. In 1989, 21,000 Ontarians were trained by our colleges in specialties ranging from aviation to robotics.

As the economic significance and impact of technology increases, it is essential that we enhance the range and quality of the programs we offer. Therefore, I am pleased to announce today a new $4-million fund that will provide additional revenue to our colleges so they might improve existing programs and to enable them to develop new programs to meet emerging needs.

The funds will also help our colleges acquire new equipment to update courses and to provide faculty with opportunities for professional development and consultation with industry.

Today’s announcement is an important step in strengthening technological training in our schools, in our post-secondary institutions and in the workplace. I am confident that the initiatives currently under way at all levels of education, and in a wide range of training options, will ensure that Ontario has the skilled people it needs to remain competitive in the global economy of the 1990s and beyond.

Staff from my ministry will be contacting colleges with the details of this year’s operating grants in the coming days.

RESPONSES

TORONTO WATERFRONT DEVELOPMENT

Mr B. Rae: It is rather an extraordinary announcement from the Minister of Housing and Municipal Affairs. He puts us, in the opposition, literally in an impossible position. and it makes it very difficult for us to respond, but not impossible.

I do not know how we are supposed to respond to a statement from the minister in which he says he has a report in his hand, he can assure us the report is very good and very positive, and he can assure us it does all kinds of wonderful things with respect to Harbourfront, but unfortunately he cannot show it to us. We simply have to take him at his word that the minister and Elmer MacKay alone are able to see a report, enough of which, I might say, has been leaked to the press that the press seems to be ahead of everybody else in terms of the information that it has.

If it is good enough for people within his ministry, or indeed elsewhere, to leak information to the press, that information ought to be made available to the members of this House. We ought to have an opportunity to assess for ourselves whether or not the government has met the tests which it set out on 13 December when it imposed a ministerial zoning order on the Harbourfront lands.

It is now accepted throughout Ontario, I think, that governments generally have blown a golden opportunity with Toronto’s Harbourfront, that building has been excessive and that the greed of developers has exceeded the public interest and the common interest. It is very difficult for many people even to get down and see the water because the water is blocked by all the buildings that have been put up.

I am not satisfied with the minister’s statement today. He has obviously put himself in an embarrassing position, announcing that the government has done a wonderful thing. It is so wonderful that they cannot show it to us. If the minister is going to make this kind of statement, he has an obligation to release the report. That is the very least he could do.

Mr Laughren: I agree with my leader.

TECHNOLOGICAL TRAINING

Mr Laughren: I wish to respond to the statement by the Minister of Education, Colleges and Universities and Skills Development.

The last part of the minister’s statement is the most important one: “Staff from my ministry will be contacting colleges with details of this year’s operating grants in the corning days.” That is the only really important part of the statement, because if you start analysing the numbers, with 21,000 Ontarians receiving skills training through the Ministry of Colleges and Universities in 1989, according to the minister’s numbers, that works out to $200 per student that is being injected into the system. I do not think that is going to be adequate to solve the problem.

It is strange that for the second week in a row, I think just on the eve of the release of the Vision 2000 report, which is supposed to be taking the colleges to the year 2000, the minister is standing in his place and making statements. It will be interesting to see when that report comes out whether or not the minister is pre-empting that report, because a lot of hard volunteer work has gone into that, a co-operative enterprise on behalf of the faculty, the colleges themselves and, of course, by the Council of Regents. It will be very interesting to see just what comes out of that report.

There are very serious problems in our community colleges. The minister need only listen to the discussions going on at Humber, Cambrian and other colleges in the system to know that much more work needs to be done in our colleges. There needs to be a new injection of funds into our community colleges.

Hon R. F. Nixon: Pardon?

Mr Laughren: I know the Treasurer resists that, but he should go and talk to the people on the Premier’s Council and see what they think about the level of funding being provided to the post-secondary institutions in our province. It is truly shameful and inadequate.

TORONTO WATERFRONT DEVELOPMENT

Mr Harris: I want to respond to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. On this historic day when the member for Nickel Belt agrees with his leader, it is appropriate that I agree with his leader as well.

Mr D. R. Cooke: No one in your party would agree.

Mr Harris: If I could only convince my own party, I would be all right over the next month or two.

Here we are with three stated objectives that, quite frankly, I agree with. They are objectives the minister set out, and I agree with those objectives. But as the Leader of the Opposition has pointed out, the minister for some reason or other thinks it is important to rise in the House to say, “Look, I set out to do these three things and I want to assure you all I have accomplished that, but I will not show you the report.”

Usually that occurs when there is a considerable amount of doubt from some people about whether the objectives in the report have been met. What you do is secretly try to get a deal with all the key players behind closed doors so they will all agree before you allow the public an opportunity to take a look. Is it not the whole objective that it is the public’s waterfront? Why are we so afraid to let the public judge whether the minister has met the three objectives?

Secondly, I object very strongly that, while that report is secret, we have to wait another 30 days to comment on it. I would make a suggestion -- I am not sure if the Leader of the Opposition was making it -- that if the minister is going to leak things to the media and he makes a deal not to give it to us, why does he not just leak it to us as well? At least then we will be on the same footing.

I want to say three or four things. I find it appalling that while this minister and this government are quick to criticize others -- and I applaud the criticism of the waterfront -- they are going ahead and taking green space off the waterfront. The Lakeshore Psychiatric Hospital is a totally provincial project, green space, open land, on the waterfront, and this government is going to fill it up with housing. It is going to proceed with a dump in the Rouge, which eventually ends up down on our waterfront.

They refuse to protect the headwaters of the Rouge north of Steeles Avenue, which is going to end up on our waterfront. The Whitevale dump where the creeks are rolling by -- and they refuse to have a full environmental assessment on that -- that is all going to end up down on our waterfront.

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

Mr Harris: The government cancelled the one program in existence that was effective in 1985 to encourage and assist municipalities to reclaim their waterfront. The first thing they did when they got into office was to cancel that program -- not much commitment on things they have control over towards waterfront reclamation for the people.

TECHNOLOGICAL TRAINING

Mrs Cunningham: I have a response to the Minister of Colleges and Universities with his enhanced support for college technology programs.

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

Mrs Cunningham: Mr Speaker, do we get time added here for the interjections of the other side?

Hon Mr Ward: We will give it to you after orders of the day.

The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I will consider adding time if the member cannot get her statement forward.

Mrs Cunningham: Regarding the announcement of enhanced support for college technology programs by the minister of all education, I would expect any money that would offer our young people additional opportunities for training beyond what they have now so we can be competitive in a global economy is extremely appreciated.

The real problem with this is the process. What happened to Vision 2000? Was that not a public process where we asked volunteers from community colleges, the education systems and universities to advise the government on what should happen next? What is this focused or targeted funding all about? No one really understands the statement today.

What we really need are more opportunities for young people to be trained. I am not certain about the faculty training. Of course, that is important, but right now the ministry should know that between 1983 and 1988, college enrolment in technological programs declined by 25 per cent. If this money is an opportunity for more young people to be educated in technological programs, if it will extend into apprenticeship training, then I am all in favour of it. But we do not know that. I think the process is wrong when the minister drops all this money in the House today without telling us specifically what it is for. This is what the government is all about.

ORAL QUESTIONS

GOODS AND SERVICES TAX

Mr B. Rae: I have a question for the Treasurer. I asked the Treasurer some questions -- I wonder whether he will recall -- on 15 and 16 November. I specifically asked him certain questions with respect to the relationship between the goods and services tax being imposed by Ottawa and the sales tax, which has been a long-standing source of provincial revenues.

When I suggested to the Treasurer that under the Ontario budget an incredible amount of money was going to be taxed under the GST that would not be covered by the sales tax, the Treasurer very explicitly told me, “It is not our policy to tax those things.” When I began to raise questions about the possibility of harmonizing the GST and the sales tax, he said very explicitly that I was tilting at windmills and that there was no such plan by the government.

I wonder whether the Treasurer can tell me, first, whether that is still the case; that is, is the government planning or contemplating any change in the base of the sales tax? Second, can he explain why Martin Goldfarb’s organization is apparently asking citizens of this province how they would feel about a reduction of the sales tax from eight per cent to six per cent and a very serious expansion of the base of the sales tax to make it similar to the GST?

Hon R. F. Nixon: The government, and certainly the Treasurer and the Treasury, is not contemplating a change in the sales tax. How come he asked two questions under the one order, Mr Speaker? But since you have said that is in order, I really do not know why Mr Goldfarb is conducting this investigation. Probably somebody has hired him to do it.

Mr B. Rae: I do not know either who Mr Goldfarb is doing the poll for, except it is a matter of record that Mr Goldfarb is a pollster for the Liberal Party of Ontario, he also does a lot of polling for the government of Ontario and he does a lot of polling for a variety of ministries. I do know that.

The information we have is that specific questions with respect to the relationship between the sales tax and the GST have been asked and they relate very explicitly to the fact that on page 101 of the Treasurer’s last budget, in terms of the papers, he himself established just how much money Ontario is leaving untaxed because the sales tax does not apply to a number of items upon which the GST applies. I ask the Treasurer if he can explain how it would be that Mr Goldfarb would be asking these questions if, indeed, the government has no such plans.

Hon R. F. Nixon: We have no such plan, and presumably the client for Mr Goldfarb has asked him to ask those questions.

Mr B. Rae: I wonder if the Treasurer can tell us how it is that his position has changed so dramatically with respect to the question of his willingness to collect or not to collect the GST, to work for and with the federal government or not to work for and with the federal government. Can the Treasurer tell us categorically in the House today whether the government of Ontario is going to do what he himself suggested should be done, and that is that the federal and provincial governments should work together in terms of the collecting of the sales tax and the GST? Is that still the Treasurer’s position or has he now invented another pre-election position?

Hon R. F. Nixon: The cynicism of the Leader of the Opposition never fails to amaze me, and the fact that his memory is failing is probably not surprising. But the honourable member would know that a year ago the Minister of Finance for Canada phoned me and the other treasurers and said he was proceeding independently, without provincial co-operation or otherwise. Frankly, it was quite a relief as far as we are concerned, because he has gone forward with every intention to use the majority of the Progressive Conservative Party in the Parliament of Canada to implement the GST.

MINISTRY OFFICIALS’ ACTIONS

Mr B. Rae: My question is for the Minister of Financial Institutions. It is my information that William Star not only received a phone call from the minister’s executive assistant with respect to the question of the letter that he wrote to the Premier and to the Minister of Financial Institutions, but that after he wrote this letter and had been contacted by Mr Howard for the first time, he also received a phone call from an examiner from the Ministry of Financial Institutions, who called to ask the name of the shareholder of Mr Star’s company.

Mr Star, having no idea as to why or how this information could or would be used by the ministry, agreed to give this information to the examiner and quite voluntarily gave this information to the ministry. It was after this that Mr Howard phoned the shareholder of Mr Star’s company with respect to holding back the publication of the letter which was critical of the government.

Can the explain why information gathered by his ministry, not by his political staff but by his ministry officials, the civil service, the public service of Ontario, was used in this way against Mr Star?

Hon Mr Elston: I do not know that the honourable gentleman’s facts are correct, but I will check into them to see what in fact has occurred. I do know that with respect to the issue of pressure by my office, I am satisfied that no pressure was exerted. It is my view that the insurance industry, which the members opposite have said we have knuckled under to all along, is well able to withstand any phone calls that might be made by a particular individual.

That is not to say that I have asked my staff people to do that or anything, or that I condone any impression that may be left that pressure is being placed by my staff or otherwise. But I can tell the honourable gentleman that his question flies in the face of the presentations made by the member for Welland-Thorold, who says the insurance industry has us around the neck, so to speak. I can tell him that his alleging that one person in this government can pressure unduly the large insurance corporations flies in the face of their logic.

Mr B. Rae: What this issue is about is the abuse of power by the Liberal government and its attempt to manipulate this whole business, so that anybody who is critical of the Liberal Party or who steps out of line with what the Liberal Party wants and what the Liberal machine wants gets sat on. That is what this is all about; that is what the issue is here.

If minister has conducted such a thorough inquiry, how is it that a simple phone call from a member of my staff to Mr Star would reveal the very basic piece of information which I have just passed to the minister? Has the minister phoned either the shareholder or Mr Star to inquire as to the activities of his executive assistant? Has he, yes or no?

Hon Mr Elston: I have not spoken to Mr Star. He prefers to do communication through the media, and that is how he has been doing it. I have not called the shareholder, but I had indicated that I would be writing to the gentleman in question to offer the apology of my office in case there is some sense that pressure was exerted. But I am not going to be calling lest there be some sense that I am providing some undue pressure on the insurance industry.

I have obligations to deal with the insurance industry on behalf of the consumers. I am asked from time to time to exert the influence of my office on behalf of the people over there who want their constituents to have lower premiums. My staff and I will call and attempt to deal with those issues. In this particular case there has been no attempt to prevent Mr Star from doing whatever he wants. In fact, he does that; he is very independent. More than that, there is a whole series of independent oppositions to the bill, and the members opposite help to substantiate and encourage their activities. That is their job as an opposition.

Mr B. Rae: What kind of inquiry has the minister conducted? He told us yesterday that we did not need a legislative committee because he had been Supersleuth and had worked this entire thing out. The minister has just told us he has not spoken to Mr Star, the individual in question who was phoned; he has not spoken to the shareholder in the United States, who was also phoned. He was entirely unaware that Mr Star had also been contacted by his ministry officials asking him to give them information about the company. Just what kind of inquiry did the minister have in order to satisfy himself that no pressure was involved?

Hon Mr Elston: The honourable gentleman asks if I was satisfied about whether or not there was pressure unduly exerted by my office. I can tell him that because he suggests my staff person did something, or because a person who has indicated a certain position with respect to government involvement in auto insurance at all suggests that certain things were done, I am not going to then start running around calling people, because the next accusation will be that the Minister of Financial Institutions is exerting undue influence by calling shareholders and other people. That is the type of opposition politics they would play.

I have satisfied myself that there was no intention to exert influence or pressure; in fact, there was merely an inquiry as to circumstances around which Mr Star was demanding, on a very short time line, a reply to his letter. I am satisfied that there was no desire to exert pressure. In fact, I have said that I will be writing a letter which will be very clear in its terms, that I am offering an apology for the fact that an impression was left. I do not believe that there was any pressure applied at all but, in fairness, I think a letter is the best way to ensure that my --

The Deputy Speaker: Thank you.

CHILDREN’S MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

Mr Brandt: My question is for the Minister of Community and Social Services. The minister may recall that I raised a question with respect to children’s mental health services in the province and my concern over the growing waiting lists that were developing in that field of government activity. The minister may be aware that many actions are being taken, not necessarily by his government with respect to the grants that it provides to these mental health centres and to children’s services generally but by the Treasurer, that are impacting negatively on some of these services by costing them more money.

Has the minister analysed what these additional costs are doing to these centres, how they are aggravating waiting lists and depriving some of these children of critically and badly needed services?

Hon Mr Beer: We work very closely with all the agencies that we fund and review with them the various pressures that are on them. I think it is perhaps important and useful to note that the funding we have provided to those centres over the last four or five years has gone up some $30 million, and that is something in the order of $18 million over and above inflation. As we look at how we are funding those agencies, we do look at all the different factors that come about because of various budgetary changes and try to ensure that we can help those centres and provide them with the funding that will allow them to better meet their responsibilities.

Mr Brandt: The increases are relatively misleading, and I know that the minister is giving accurate figures other than that he is leaving some of them out. I want to refer the minister to a letter that I received from the Beechgrove Children’s Centre, which serves the area of Kingston, Brockville, Belleville and Smiths Falls in eastern Ontario.

In that instance -- and I am only giving the minister one example of what the actions of his government are doing with respect to this particular facility -- the employer health levy is going to cost an additional $23,000 annually; pay equity is going to cost another $43,000 to this particular institution. The increase on the part of the staff was reasonable; there was a five per cent increase, but that comes to another $30,000. In all, when one adds up these particular costs and passes through the minister’s 4.5 per cent increase, the result is they are going to have to cut three staff positions.

Is that how the minister improves children’s services in this province, by cutting staff positions?

Hon Mr Beer: It certainly is not, and I think the record speaks for the fact that we have been putting funding into this sector and that through meetings with them, through their executive, we have set out a series of issues that are facing them and are trying to see how we can, in the normal budgetary process, help them to meet that particular problem.

I would have to come back to the honourable member and say what I said the other day, that it does not help in our funding of those agencies and others in the children’s area when we learn, only in the last number of weeks, that we are losing some $160 million which we would have been able to receive under the Canada assistance plan.

One of the reasons we shifted the programs into our ministry so we could obtain Canada assistance plan funds was precisely because it would make those dollars go further -- they would be 50-50 dollars -- we were able, from 1987 until this last fiscal year, to add something in the order of $25 million to that sector. But obviously that has an impact on our ability to continue with that kind of expansion.

We have also said in our meetings with the executive that we are going to go forward in meeting issues around the salaries of employees and around the waiting lists. We may not be able to do that as quickly as we would have liked, because of these cuts, but l think when the member looks at the record of this government he will see that each year we have increased the funding to this sector over and above inflation.

Mr Brandt: I truly believe the minister has lost sight of the level of crisis that is occurring with respect to these services. The Beechgrove centre has a waiting list today of 300 children who are going without badly needed services, not as a result of federal cuts, but as a result of programs his government has passed on to these local institutions. Another 100 young children who are going to be put on a waiting list. The minister is aggravating a problem which is bad now; it is going to get worse in the future. He knows full well there are some 10,000 children on waiting lists in this province. It is not good enough to simply blame the feds. What is the minister going to do about it?

Hon Mr Beer: We will continue to do what we have been doing, which is dealing with children’s services and putting money into that sector in a way that the member’s federal cousins have not been doing. Those are facts.

The other point I would make to my honourable friend is that he should not be led or lulled into dealing with the broad area of children’s services by looking at only one sector. The way we are going to deal with this issue and have a real impact on providing the services to the kids who need it is by bringing all those sectors together and dealing with the real problems.

We do not dispute for a moment that those are not real problems, but I think the member has to look at the record of this government in working with children’s mental health centres, children’s aid societies and family and counselling agencies over the last four or five years to see that we have been in there with them trying to help them. We have just lost $160 million, which does not make that task any easier, but our commitment remains and we are working with the Ontario Association of Children’s Mental Health Centres to resolve those issues.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Runciman: My question is for the Minister without Portfolio responsible for senior citizens’ affairs. Later today I will be tabling several thousand petitions related to the no-fault auto insurance proposal brought forward by this government. The minister, we know, represents seniors around the cabinet table in this province. I would like to know from him today what representations he has received from seniors with respect to this legislation.

Hon Mr Morin: I would hike to pass this question to the Minister of Financial Institutions.

Hon Mr Elston: We have just been through a series of extended hearings wherein a number of people have made representations, including some seniors’ groups. Members might know that there have been some very positive comments from some of those people and that there have been some mixed concerns expressed by various seniors in the province.

The member knows, from having attended the hearings, and I know, from having reviewed the briefs, that positive effects of the bill have been seen by some seniors, and some seniors have raised concerns, just like other people who have seen the bill.

That is what we have heard from seniors. I can say, without concern, that we have had a number of letters from some seniors’ organizations which would express some concerns, but not a condemnation of the legislation.

Mr Runciman: I am astonished by the referral of this question. Obviously there is no advocate for seniors in this Liberal cabinet. If the minister supposedly responsible does not have the intestinal fortitude to stand up today in this House and say what he is doing on behalf of the seniors of this province, all the members of that cabinet and all the members of that government should be hanging their heads in shame.

The Deputy Speaker: Supplementary.

Mr Runciman: Obviously no one is speaking out on behalf of seniors in the cabinet of the Liberal government of Ontario.

If that was the case, and since the minister supposedly responsible does not have the guts to stand up here, I want to direct my supplementary to the Minister for Financial Institutions. What about volunteers in society, the people working for Meals on V/heels, the people driving cancer patients? The minister is attacking those individuals; he is discouraging them from providing volunteers for much-needed services in this province.

Hon Mr Elston: The after-dinner speaker was great in his theatrics but, as usual, he failed to provide people with a sense of the bill and its contents. For the first, time senior citizens in Ontario will receive, in the no-fault portion of the insurance, $185 per week. That is an increase over the previous amount under no-fault, which was zero. There will be an increased benefit there. There will be increased efficiency in making payments early, between 10 days and 30 days. There will be increased attention paid to supplementary medical and rehabilitation services. There will be increases allowed for long-term care.

This honourable gentleman will know that there are people in the senior citizens’ community who recognize those as very good and sound increases in benefits. In addition, the people in the senior citizens’ community recognize the member for Carleton East as the finest of the finest of the people who are in the cabinet and they appreciate the advocacy which he and all of us in the cabinet are providing on behalf of improving services, not only in auto insurance but in all facets of life dealing with senior citizens in the province. I find the diatribe which we were just experiencing from the member for Leeds-Grenville as being unworthy of this House.

Mr Runciman: I find the actions of this government -- invoking closure, invoking time allocation -- unacceptable to the people of this province and unacceptable to the members of this Legislature.

The Deputy Speaker: Supplementary.

Mr Runciman: I have a great deal of respect for the member for Carleton East as well, but I want to say that when he supposes we have to believe he is representing seniors’ interests in this province, and he is not prepared to stand up in this House and indicate what kind of representations he has had or what kind of input he has had around the cabinet table with respect to the concerns of seniors in this province, it is a sorry day indeed.

The Deputy Speaker: Supplementary.

Mr Runciman: Let us talk about non-economic loss for seniors. These people do not have any recognized income.

Many of them are living on pensions. Because of the minister’s legislation they are not going to have recourse to the courts for non-economic loss. Let’s hear a satisfactory response to that with respect to all the seniors who have those legitimate concerns out there across the province, which he is trying to trivialize here today.

Hon Mr Elston: There is no attempt by anyone to trivialize anything with respect to concerns about legislation. But I can tell members --

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

Hon Mr Elston: We have taken into consideration the representations of a number of people with respect to the bill. We have heard from them. When we were trying to deal with clause-by-clause on the bill, we suffered through almost two full days of “brief opening statements” by the opposition parties. There were four speakers -- I got about three or four minutes in there as well -- and we did not even get to clause 1. That is the type of activity that these people have been promoting in the House. If they wonder whether or not we should get on with business, we are prepared to get on --

The Deputy Speaker: Order.

RENT REGULATION

Mr D. S. Cooke: I have a question for the Minister of Housing. The 650 tenant families at 5000 Jane St and 4001 Steeles Avenue West in North York have been told by their landlord, NHD Developments Ltd, that their rents will increase by 52 per cent in 1990 due to both land rental increases and capital expenditures. NHD Developments Ltd is a company headed by Sam Sorbara. Antica Investments Ltd is also headed by Sam Sorbara. That company owns the land.

The land rental charges at 5000 Jane St are to be increased from $82,744 per year to $720,000, a 770 per cent increase, while the land rental charges at 4001 Steeles Avenue West will go from $60,207 a year to $881,100, or a 1,363 per cent increase.

One Sorbara company is hitting another Sorbara company, and who pays? The tenants. The minister knows of all the loopholes in his rent review legislation. Here is another one. What is he prepared to do to protect tenants in this province? There are 12 of them from these buildings here in the gallery. What is he going to do to protect them from the Sorbara family?

Hon Mr Sweeney: My honourable friend is aware of the fact that there is a

section within the rent review legislation which requires a provable arm’s-length relationship with respect to the kinds of arrangements he just described. I will be quite happy, not only on behalf of him but also for the tenants he has spoken about, to have this particular transaction reviewed once again to be sure that it is a legitimate arm’s-length transaction. I cannot comment on whether it is or not. I know the legislation requires that. I know our rent review hearing officers will take that into consideration, and I give him my commitment to have it reviewed one more time.

Mr D. S. Cooke: We have raised case after case in this Legislature of how landlords in this province are finding the loopholes in this government’s rent review legislation, whether it is refinancing, renovations or now land rentals. Is the minister not now convinced that there are so many loopholes in the rent review legislation that it needs to be scrapped and that real rent control needs to be brought in, because that is the only thing that will protect tenants from unscrupulous landlords who are out there to make bucks at the expense of ordinary people in this province?

Hon Mr Sweeney: In 1985 it was clearly recognized that there were some faults in the rent review legislation, and on that basis, my predecessor brought together landlords and tenants to rewrite the legislation, to discover from both sides where those kinds of changes ought to be made. That was done, as the member obviously knows, and we now have in place another piece of legislation.

It has been the history of this Legislature, in the 15 years that I have been here, that from time to time we find from practices out in the field that any piece of legislation does not always work as well as we, as legislators, intended it to. Consequently, we have to make amendments to that from time to time. If this proves to be one of those cases, then certainly we will review it once more.

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

SPORTS COUNCILS

Mr Harris: I have a question for the Premier concerning his government’s decision to shut down the operations of the Northeastern Ontario Regional Sports Committee. After successfully co-ordinating and promoting amateur sport and the disabled games for 16 years, this organization was terminated by his government with six weeks’ notice. Interestingly enough, this group was part of the umbrella organization that opposed his cohort’s Bill 119 to take the lottery funding away from them.

In view of the fact that the government paid for a $40,000 study that stated sports councils should be not only maintained but enhanced, can the Premier explain why his government terminated this funding without adequate consultation, without notice, and totally against the recommendation of the $40,000 study that he commissioned and paid for?

Hon Mr Peterson: I believe the honourable minister can assist my friend on this matter.

Hon Mr Black: The member for Nipissing has raised an important issue, and I am pleased that he has, so I can address it. He will be aware of the fact that a study was done and made several recommendations. One of those recommendations was that the sports councils, as presently constituted, were not truly representative of all northeastern Ontario. In addition, the study recommended that if they were to continue to operate, they should do so at some arm’s length from the Ministry of Tourism and Recreation, which had been providing both funding and space for them to operate.

The decision to discontinue the operation of the northeastern and northwestern sports council was a difficult one. They had done much and the members of that group had contributed significantly. However, there were some initiatives that we wanted to introduce in northern Ontario which we think are worth while and which we think will promote sports and sports activity in the north and we had to make a very difficult decision in establishing priorities.

Mr Harris: I am surprised that the Premier would refer the question to the minister, because this is the minister who, according to Grant Southwell, the president of the sports council, when he met with the minister, said, and I am quoting Grant Southwell:

“The minister responded there are certain tradeoffs that people who choose to live in northern Ontario must make. According to Mr Black, we cannot expect to receive the same amount or quality of service that the south enjoys.”

This is the minister whom the Premier referred the question to; this is his response to the northeastern Ontario sports council.

He goes on in his letter and says, “In the words of the minister, it is not uncommon for a government to spend money to research an issue and not act upon the recommendations.”

The minister is right on that. We know of report after report, including insurance, that the government refused to act on the recommendations.

The Deputy Speaker: Supplementary?

Mr Harris: How can the minister justify saying to the people of northern Ontario that there is a price we have to pay, that we cannot have the same services for living and choosing to live in the north that people in southern Ontario enjoy? How can he justify that statement to the president of the Northeastern Ontario Regional Sports Committee?

Hon Mr Black: I know the member for Nipissing is very busy these days and obviously does not have the time to research his facts properly. I have never had the opportunity of meeting with Grant Southwell, so I am not sure where the member gets his facts, but he obviously has them incorrect. This government is committed to northern Ontario. In fact, we have increased our funding significantly for the promotion of sports in northern Ontario. We have done that through three initiatives that I want to share with the members.

First, we are working with the Ontario Physical Health Education Association, which is implementing in northern Ontario a pilot program called Sportability; we believe it has tremendous potential to service all of this province, but we are instituting the program on a pilot project in northern Ontario because we want to meet the needs of the north.

Second, we have announced a new $50,000 funding program for young athletes in northern Ontario, once again a recognition that those people do need some help in order to compete satisfactorily at the provincial level; so we are instituting that program to give them specific assistance.

Finally, we are continuing to fund the coaching certification program in the north, as we have done in the past.

TAXATION

Mr Owen: I have a question for the Treasurer. In recent weeks there have been riots across Britain objecting to what they are calling a poll tax, which has been introduced by that country’s Conservative government. I understand this is a tax on people rather than on real estate, and I understand that means a single person who might be living in a mansion pays one tax for himself or herself, but if there were six adults living in a crowded home, they would pay six times what the one person does in the mansion.

The Deputy Speaker: The question is?

Mr Owen: I am asking the Treasurer if he has looked at what is being proposed in Britain, and do we have any assurance as to what might or might not happen in Ontario?

Hon R. F. Nixon: I have been considering asking one of the polling organizations to review that on my behalf, but I thought maybe my reading of history would be sufficient. The last time the United Kingdom tried the poll tax was in the 13th century and the Chancellor of the Exchequer was executed for his bad judgement. lam not sure what is going to happen to the Iron Butterfly; they may need an acetylene torch for her.

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

Mr Owen: I have read various reports which indicate not only incredible costs are involved for the British Parliament in this transfer of tax target, but also incredible costs for the municipalities in implementing it. I know there have been recent changes by our own federal government in the way it is collecting and administering taxes. Has there been any effect on this province with regard to changes in the federal taxation programs?

I have already indicated that anything we can reasonably do to assist we are prepared to do, but we are not going into the goods and services tax. We are not contemplating expanding the base of our sales tax. The people in the province are used to the sales tax. They do not like it, they certainly do not like it, but in fact we net just under $9 billion from the tax, and that pays a lot of our bills.

Mr B. Rae: The tire tax, on the other hand, is tremendously popular.

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

Mr B. Rae: The question I have is for the Minister of the Environment. Alan Marshall is in the gallery today. Mr Marshall is an employee of Varnicolor Chemical Ltd in Elmira. He has made out an affidavit setting out certain extremely important allegations with respect to spills and chemical spills at the company. I also have an affidavit from Bert Nalhiah, who was the head of the laboratory at Varnicolor from 1986 to 1989.

Mr Nalliah has left the company, and Mr Marshall has been suspended, but neither of these individuals has any rights under the Environmental Protection Act with respect to his employment. Why is it that if somebody makes a complaint under the Labour Relations Act, his employment is guaranteed and protected under the law, but if somebody takes an action under the Environmental Protection Act making a serious allegation against his employer -- whistle-blowing, as it is called -- there is no protection in the law for whistle-blowers? Where is the protection for Mr Marshall and Mr Nalliah?

Hon Mr Bradley: The Environmental Protection Act does cover situations of this kind. We certainly are thankful, in many circumstances across the province, when employees of various firms are prepared to put forward to us information which assists us in prosecuting any particular company for a violation. We welcome that opportunity. We have had information like that provided to us by a number of different people.

It is my understanding that under

section I 34b of the Environmental Protection Act, employees are protected when they give information to the ministry. The Environmental Protection Act clearly applies in the case the member refers to and has applied for a number of years now, as the former Minister of the Environment would tell the member.

Certainly our ministry will assist in any way we can, as we have with other employees who have provided information to us in similar circumstances -- information, by the way, which we believe is very useful in terms of charges being laid and prosecutions when we do further investigations.

Mr B. Rae: Mr Marshall makes several significant allegations, not only against the company but also against the ministry. It is my understanding that, as of today, the ministry has decided no charges will be laid. I am quoting from the Kitchener-Waterloo Record, which said, “The Ministry of the Environment officials said the employee’s allegations ‘have been substantiated in many respects and that is why an audit is being ordered,” but there are no charges being laid against this company.

I repeat my question to the minister: Why is there no protection clearly stated in the act? It is not there. The minister says it is. He is wrong; it is not there. Why is it not clearly stated in the act that employees will be protected when they start to call and tell the truth about their employers?

Hon Mr Bradley: The member would know that under

section 134b it states the following, where it gives the various designations, the various

interpretations:

“No employer shall (

a) dismiss an employee; (

b) discipline an employee; (

c) penalize an employee; or (

d) coerce or intimidate or attempt to coerce or intimidate an employee, because the employee has complied or may comply with, (

e) the Environmental Assessment Act; (

f) the Environmental Protection Act; (

g) the Fisheries Act (Canada); (

h) the Ontario Water Resources Act; or (

i) the Pesticides Act, or a regulation under one of those acts or an order, term or condition, certificate of approval, licence, permit or direction under one of those acts or because the employee has sought or may seek the enforcement of one of those acts or a regulation under one of those acts or has given or may give information to the ministry or a provincial officer or has been or may be called upon to testify in a proceeding related to one of those acts or a regulation under one of those acts.”

I think that clearly addresses this particular issue. I commend the people who come forward and provide that information.

In the specific instance the member is talking about, there is an audit or investigation going on. He would know that the ministry, for instance, visited the place seven times, I believe, in 1989 and continues to investigate.

HOUSING FOR THE DISABLED

Mrs Marland: My question is for the Minister without Portfolio responsible for disabled persons. On 14 August 1987 the then Minister of Housing, the member for Scarborough North, announced the Supportive Community Living demonstration project. His statement promised that this government would complete an additional 1,000 supportive units by 1990 and the modification of 2,500 existing units. Since we know that the minister’s government is committed to the pledge, “We did what we said we would do,” could she tell this House how many of these 3,500 supportive units have been built?

Hon Ms Collins: I would have to refer that to the Minister of Housing.

Hon Mr Sweeney: I do not know the exact numbers. I will certainly find out for the member. I can tell her that quite a number of affordable units, as far as the housing is concerned. have been supported by my ministry. Of course, what she probably knows is that there has to be a combination of the housing component and the supporting component, which is a responsibility of my colleague the Minister of Community and Social Services. We work together on those. But I cannot tell her right now how many actually have been done; I will find out.

Mrs Marland: This is a sad day in this House. We have the Minister without Portfolio responsible for senior citizens’ affairs deferring his question; we have the Minister without Portfolio responsible for disabled persons deferring her question. We have two ministers who have referred their questions this afternoon. I think that is singularly significant.

I will tell the Minister of Housing with as much grace as I can muster that this program has been cancelled. Since the program has been cancelled, and since there are 250 people on waiting lists for accessible units that provide part-time attendant care and 880 on waiting lists for accessible units without attendant care, as well as countless others who are on waiting lists for private-nonprofit housing, disabled persons have to wait between three and five years for affordable housing today in this province.

The Minister of Housing does not even know that this program was cancelled. My question is this: What is the minister prepared to do to ensure his government lives up to its promises in addressing this appalling situation?

Hon Mr Sweeney: I would quarrel with the member’s contention. First of all, we have opened up Ontario Housing units to make them available for single people and disabled people. That was not available before. Second, a significant number of the nonprofit and co-op projects which we have authorized over the last couple of years do contain special units designed for disabled people.

I have just come back from a tour across the province in which I visited about 14 centres, and in every single centre I went to, I visited two or three projects that were either complete or under way. In every one of those projects, there were a number of units specifically designed for the disabled. I think the record is clear as to what this province is doing.

TRANSIT SERVICES

Ms Poole: My question is for the Minister of Transportation. According to the Saturday Toronto Star, a $2-billion expansion of Metro’s rapid transit system will be announced by the province on Thursday.

My constituents are high transit users. In fact, we have three subway stops in Eglinton: Lawrence, Eglinton and Davisville. Particularly at Eglinton and Davisville, we have a real problem with overcrowding. It is extremely frustrating to stand on the platform at rush-hour in the morning and watch train after train go by too full to allow us to get on.

The question I have for the minister is: Is it indeed true what the Toronto Star reports, that lie will be making a major announcement on Thursday? Second, if he is, what is it going to do to help my constituents in Eglinton?

Hon Mr Wrye: I can tell the honourable member we will see her on Thursday morning. She is invited to hear the results, because I know on a number of occasions the member for Eglinton has raised concerns on behalf of her constituents over the extremely difficult problem of the rush-hour congestion and the impact it is having on her constituents in the Eglinton-Davisville area, an area I know very well, having in my younger days living in Toronto used both of those stations because of where I lived. Her facts are right. The volumes are such now that trains often go through so full that people at those stations simply have to wait for four or five trains.

As part of the north Metro boundary transportation review, one of the options that was looked at, which we shall be discussing on Thursday and which we have been considering, is a looping of the Yonge-Spadina subway system somewhere in the Finch-Steeles corridor. One of the issues raised by the consultants who did the review -- a very eminent consultant in Metro, Richard Soberman, whom I know the member knows -- is that simply doing the loop would add a 10 per cent increase to the Yonge-Spadina capacity. That would mean an additional two trains in the rush-hour. That is something we are looking at very carefully.

Ms Poole: I am very encouraged to hear the minister will be making an announcement in this regard. I wonder, though, could lie give me some specific details as to how many people the system will be expanding to accommodate and, inferentially, what this will mean to my constituents in Eglinton?

Hon Mr Wrye: I ask the honourable member, who I know has travelled the line and travelled Out of those stations, to contemplate the impact of adding somewhere in the range of 3,000 or 3,500 additional capacity spaces through those two trains on a per-hour basis. As well, one of the ancillary issues that a loop, if proceeded with, might solve is it might add to the utilization of the Spadina portion of the Yonge-Spadina system, which is now the only portion of the system which even in rush hour is at times underutilized.

Certainly, the major problem is on Yonge Street. We expect cross-Metro-boundary capacity increases of up to 110,000 people a day, every day, in both directions by the year 2010, and obviously we have to find solutions to address that emerging need.

CHILD CARE

Mr Allen: I have a question for the Minister of Community and Social Services. A Metropolitan Toronto nonprofit child care centre by the name of McMurrich Sprouts is being forced to ask 10 subsidized kids to withdraw from child care because it can no longer afford to keep them. It is estimated that up to 1,000 children in the Metro day care system are similarly at risk.

Why? Because the provincial contribution to Metro day care costs, rather than meeting the 30 per cent that is obligated by the Canada assistance plan, stands now at 23 per cent of the costs of the subsidized day care spaces in Toronto. When is the minister going to begin to pay the full provincial share of day care costs in Toronto and relieve these children in particular of the risk in which they stand?

Hon Mr Beer: I am not aware of the specific instance that my honourable friend raises and will certainly look into it. But I want to point out to him that over the last four or five years we have increased significantly the subsidized spaces in Metropolitan Toronto, which now stand, I believe, at over 19,000. We participate fully with Metropolitan Toronto, and in terms of the funding for child care in the province, which five years ago was $89 million, we now put into Metro alone over $100 million. I think that is a significant amount of money.

Recently I met with the Metro chairman, the mayor of Toronto and other senior officials from the Metropolitan area to look at some of their specific problems around subsidies and around their purchase of service area. It is my belief that we will shortly be able to move forward and meet the difficulties that they encountered there. I think we will continue to work with them, and I would be very hopeful that the kind of situation the member raises will not recur.

Mr Allen: There are multiple problems that afflict day care in the province and particularly in Metro Toronto. But I want to address the minister to an interesting and puzzling wrinkle. He is not the only one who is not paying the full share of the overall day care costs in Metropolitan Toronto. The federal government also is paying only 38 per cent as against the 50 per cent that should be its share. However, it is interesting that the ministry of which this minister is in charge refuses to pass on the extra amount that the Metro Toronto government pays, namely, $18 million, in full funding of subsidized spaces, which it is not normally obligated to do.

The minister and the ministry could pass that money on and get 50 per cent refund from the federal government if it would do that, but the ministry officials keep saying, “We don’t intend to play bookkeeper in this particular game.” Is it not perhaps time to rise above the question of playing games of bookkeeper and actually working out some arrangements to pass on those charges and get 50 per cent of that money back, namely, $9 million, to address some of the subsidized spaces that are at risk?

Hon Mr Beer: I think the honourable member would agree that what we have to do, in looking at the funding of this whole area, is work co-operatively and positively with the municipal level of government as well as with the federal government. In our view, it would be most irresponsible if we simply took the request from Metro Toronto or any other municipality and passed it on.

One of our major concerns about the Canada assistance plan was to ensure that it not be cut and that we act responsibly, which is precisely why I sat down with the Metro chairman and others to look very directly at that particular problem. I believe that we have come to an arrangement which is going to be very positive for Metro Toronto.

In terms of the federal funding and what we are going to lose as a result of the cuts in CAP, we are waging that battle on a number of fronts. I think it is very important that the province and the municipal level of government sit down to work out what we believe is the appropriate level of child care spaces and what we are going to subsidize, and then it is critical that the federal government come to the table and pay its proper amount. But I cannot say to my honourable colleague that we are going to meet the specific problem that Metro Toronto has in this area.

CLOSING OF CAMPGROUNDS

Mr Villeneuve: I have a question to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation. The minister will remember a letter I sent to him recently regarding closures of parks, the St Lawrence parks in eastern Ontario. Last year, he shortened the season and put up the rates for the users of the parks. This year, five parks are being closed completely. How can the parks commission or his ministry say that the closure of five out of IS parks enhances tourism in eastern Ontario?

Hon Mr Black: I would like to clarify for the member for Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry that the decision to close the five parks in question was made not by my ministry but by the St Lawrence Parks Commission which, as he knows, is an arm’s-length agency.

I would also like to stress to him, as he well knows again, that the members of the St Lawrence Parks Commission are people who live and work in the communities of eastern Ontario. They are people who understand and appreciate the problems there. The decision to close those parks was a difficult one, but in fact the St Lawrence Parks Commission, in trying to see how it could carry out its responsibilities in a cost-effective way, made that very difficult decision.

I should also share with the member the fact that of the five parks that have been closed, as he would know, approximately three of them may well be opened by this summer as communities take on that responsibility after negotiations with the commission.

Mr Villeneuve: These are prime waterfront properties in eastern Ontario and we will not allow them to grow weeds and brush. The St Lawrence Parks Commission Act says, “It is the duty of the commission to develop, control, manage, operate and maintain the parks.” That does not sound like closing them.

In the standing committee on public accounts, it says “to acquire, preserve, develop and maintain historic sites, to operate to a high standard of excellence, to encourage and promote tourism in the area, to operate historic sites, camping facilities, etc.” There is nothing in there that says “closing down; it is “to encourage and promote.” Does the minister feel the mandate of the commission is to close down a third of its parks?

Hon Mr Black: Let me share with the member and with his colleagues some facts and figures. Let me tell him, for example, that the park at Farran, which is one of the parks in question, had a 27 per cent occupancy rate last summer. Let me tell him that the park at Brown’s Bay --

The Deputy Speaker: Order, please.

Hon Mr Black: I would like to respond to the question, if I may. Let me tell the member that the park at Brown’s Bay had only 9,000 visitors last summer, an occupancy rate of some 32 per cent.

I want to tell him also that his colleagues the member for Simcoe East and the member for Leeds-Grenville were members of committees which looked at the operation of the St Lawrence Parks Commission, and both of those committee studies recommended that they be operated in a cost-effective way. Our government is committed to spending taxpayers’ dollars wisely.

If members of the third party do not care about how taxpayers dollars are spent, I want them to know that we do care. We did not achieve a balanced budget in this government by frittering away taxpayers’ dollars.

HEALTH CARDS

Mr Chiarelli: My question is to the Minister of Health.

Many of my constituents, having heard the recent announcement concerning the new health cards, have been calling my office to make inquiries. I wonder if the minister can tell the constituents of Ottawa West how and when they will be receiving their new health cards.

Hon Mrs Caplan: I thank the member for Ottawa West for his question. In fact, he has been very active in ensuring that his constituents are well served.

Every household in Ontario will get a health card information form approximately mid-April, around the 17th, with instructions on how to fill it out and room for approximately 10 people to be on the same application form. There will also be additional information, and a return envelope will be included. We are hopeful that everyone will complete the form within two weeks. If they have any questions, they can call the ministry office. The phone number will be on the form. People should be receiving their new cards six to eight weeks after they have sent the form back to the ministry.

Mr Chiarelli: The minister mentioned that there will be information that needs to be provided in the application form. I am sure the minister is aware of the fact that a number of people and press reports have indicated there is a question of infringement of personal privacy with respect to the application form. Can the minister assure the House and the residents of Ottawa West that individual privacy will not be violated through this process?

Hon Mrs Caplan: In fact, protection of personal privacy is a priority for the ministry and for myself. I want to tell the member and all members of this House of the special steps that the ministry has taken to enhance and ensure protection of personal privacy.

A person’s name, age, address, sex and identifying information will be kept in a separate data bank with confidentiality provisions maintained, as we do now. A separate data bank for all health information and services will be kept separately. They will not be tied together. Only these data without the names attached will be made available for planning purposes. This is an enhancement over what exists today. Today, when you have one number for a whole family, the opportunity to separate these data out for planning purposes is more difficult.

I believe confidentiality will be improved with this new system, and I thank the member for his question.

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY

Miss Martel: I have a question for the Minister of Labour concerning the compensation case for Gojko Toljagic. He was employed as a caretaker at North Toronto Collegiate for 22 1/2 years. In October 1989 he died from mesothelioma, which is almost always exclusively caused by exposure to asbestos. The Workers’ Compensation Board has denied the claim and said that in fact he would not have any exposure to asbestos.

Stan Gray, the director of the Ontario Workers Health Centre, is actually handling the claim, and it was his staff who went into that school and did the inspection regarding the asbestos problem. On 8 January he delivered to the Ministry of Labour 19 pictures, a lab report and a videotape showing all the asbestos in that school.

The ministry has all the evidence to prove that the asbestos was there and that the worker had extreme exposure to it. I want to know why the Minister of Labour has not forced the board to accept this claim.

Hon Mr Phillips: I do not force the board to accept any claim. They have a process that they follow, which is a thorough process, including access to outside resources to review situations like this, and there is a well structured process for review and for appeals. I am sure the members of the House will appreciate that the minister does not force the board to do things when there is this well structured appeal process that the Legislature had developed, including the Workers’ Compensation Appeals Tribunal. I do not involve myself in a case where, as I say, we have a well developed process to follow.

TIRE TAX

Mr B. Rae: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I had an exchange last week with the Minister of Revenue concerning the so-called secret tax agreement between the car rental companies and the Ministry of Revenue. The minister assured me on Wednesday that in fact the tax was being withdrawn.

I have a Rent A Car agreement from Sunday that was reached at the Sudbury airport and it still shows the 8.3 per cent tax. When I raised it with the representative of Hertz Rent A Car, she said that she had never heard of Remo Mancini but she did --

Interjection.

Mr B. Rae: She did know who I was.

Hon Mr Elston: You must do a lot of travelling, Bob. You get around.

Mr B. Rae: I am a very busy fellow these days.

I just want to raise that to let you know that despite the fact that the minister told us on Wednesday that something was being done, it would appear that it has not been done yet.

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. She may or may not know the minister, but I know the standing orders and that is not a point of order. However, the minister may have taken note.

PETITIONS

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Kormos: I have a petition and I am going to summarize the petition because I know the rules require that I do that. This petition reads:

“We, the undersigned, hereby register our deep concern and outrage over the provisions of the Ontario motorist protection plan” --

Interjections.

The Deputy Speaker: Order, please. I would like to remind the members, and especially in this particular case the member for Welland-Thorold, to read the standing orders again.

CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES

Mr Brandt: I only have one petition. It is, however, signed by approximately 135 residents of Sarnia and area. The petition reads as follows:

“To the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario”

“We, the undersigned, beg leave to petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

“Whereas the Ontario Child and Family Services Act is intended to protect children and their rights; and

“Whereas the Ontario Child and Family Services Act has resulted in children being exposed to physical, mental and emotional risks because they have been permitted to make decisions and accept responsibilities beyond their capabilities; and

“Whereas the Ontario Child and Family Services Act prohibits caring, responsible adults from acting in the best interests of the child at times;

‘Therefore, we as concerned adults in this province respectfully request that the Ontario Child and Family Services Act be amended in order to give control of adolescence back to responsible adults and stop this chaos that enables our young people to destroy their lives.”

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Philip: I have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

“Whereas the Peterson Liberal government has introduced auto insurance legislation which is directly contrary to its own studies; and

“Whereas this legislation will result in higher taxes to cover the $141 million handed back to the insurance companies by the Liberal government; and

“Whereas the legislation will result in most accident victims being unable to be compensated for pain, suffering and other losses; and

“Whereas the legislation will result in the innocent victim being treated no better than the negligent driver responsible for the injuries and removes the right for victims to seek compensation from negligent and dangerous drivers;

“We, the undersigned, petition the Legislature of Ontario to express to the Liberal government our great disapproval of its policies concerning automobile insurance and request that Bill 68 be withdrawn.”

Mr Runciman: Today I will be tabling approximately 7,500 petitions of residents of this province opposed to Bill 68. So that I do not violate the rules of the House, I am going to deposit these on the minister’s desk myself.

The Deputy Speaker; The member for Leeds-Grenville has kind of short-circuited the rules of the House.

HEALTH PROFESSIONS

Mr Harris: I have a petition:

“To the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

“We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly and the Lieutenant Governor of Ontario as follows:

“We are seriously concerned about the proposed bill by the Ministry of Health regarding the regulation of Ontario’s health professions -- striking a balance, sections 27(o)( II) and 27(o)(4).

“The effect of this legislation is that it will prevent most mental health practitioners from practising and will create a monopoly on health care for other professionals.

“OHIP expenditures will increase significantly and the availability of good service will drop for those needing mental health care.

“We urge you not to proceed with this legislation as it reads currently.

Section 27(o)(4) must be deleted and

section 27(o)(1 1) should be replaced so that unregulated practitioners are not prohibited from diagnosing a client’s condition.”

This is signed by over 1,000 petitioners, all residents of the province of Ontario, and now by me as well.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Farnan: I have a petition concerning the Ontario motorist protection plan:

“To the Legislative Assembly of the province of Ontario:

“We, the undersigned, hereby register our deep concern and outrage over the provisions of the new Ontario motorist protection plan. We respectfully request that the Legislature consider substantial amendment of or complete rejection of the Ontario motorist protection plan as presently proposed.

“We further respectfully request that a plan be devised more nearly in accordance with the results of the independent studies undertaken at the request of the government.”

This petition is signed by nine citizens of the province of Ontario. I have added my name in total and complete support.

RIDING OF PRINCE EDWARD-LENNOX

Mr MacDonald: I have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. It reads as follows:

“We, the undersigned, beg leave to petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

“To introduce legislation to amend the Representation Act, 1986, to change the name of the electoral district of Prince Edward-Lennox to recognize all portions of the district thereof.”

I fully support this petition and introduced a bill to address this issue on 21 March of this year.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Morin-Strom: I have a petition that reads as follows:

“To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

“Whereas Bill 68 is legislation that makes tragic changes to the rights of innocent injured motor vehicle accident victims;

“Whereas the Peterson government has made it clear that they want this legislation rammed through, notwithstanding that people across Ontario have made it clear that they want this bad legislation dumped;

“Whereas there is nothing in Bill 68 that gives effect to David Peterson’s promise in 1987 that he had a very specific plan to reduce auto insurance premium rates, because once this legislation is passed by the Liberals auto insurance premiums will climb by as much as 50 per cent, according to Minister of Financial Institutions, Murray Elston;

“Whereas the Liberal government’s auto insurance legislation will provide enormous taxpayers’ subsidies to the private corporate auto insurance industry, costing the Ontario taxpayer at least $141 million in the first year alone;

“Whereas this legislation will cost drivers in Ontario millions of dollars in increased premiums;

“Whereas this insurance legislation will deprive innocent injured victims of at least $823 million in compensation that will be denied them;

“Whereas this insurance legislation will create a $1-billion payday for the auto insurance industry at the expense of taxpayers, drivers and innocent injured victims, these people will be forced to pay more and they will get less;

“Whereas Peterson and the Liberals have refused to listen to the hundreds of submissions made to them calling upon them to abandon this bad legislation;

“We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

“That Peterson and his Liberal government end this sellout of taxpayers, drivers and victims and that they immediately withdraw Bill 68.”

This petition, as were the thousands of petitions that were presented just a few minutes ago by my colleague the member for Welland-Thorold, has been signed by residents of the province of Ontario. I have signed it and endorse it and hope that the government will act upon it today.

The Deputy Speaker: It may be time to remind the members again that tradition has it that one does not read a lengthy petition but has a short, brief, rapid

summary.

HEALTH PROFESSIONS

Mr Harris: I first of all rise to correct the record on my last petition. I indicated it was signed by over 1,000 people. It was signed by just 42 of the faculty of social work at the University of Toronto.

HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION

Mr Harris: The confusion came in because I have a second petition which is different from the first petition, and it is signed by 971 people. I would like, if I may, in rapid, staccato fashion to briefly summarize:

“We, the undersigned, petition the Lieutenant Governor of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

“Because of the number of accidents and fatalities at the junction of highways 11 and 17E, we, the undersigned, insist that an overpass be made a top priority. In the meantime, we would like to see safety measures taken, such as better signs. This junction is dangerous in itself. Combined with adverse weather and road conditions as well as a heavy flow of traffic, it can often be perilous.”

It goes on, Mr Speaker, but I think you get the gist of that summarization.

CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES

Mr Neumann: This petition is addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

“Whereas the Ontario Child and Family Services Act is intended to protect children and their rights; and

“Whereas the Ontario Child and Family Services Act has resulted in children being exposed to physical, mental and emotional risks because they have been permitted to make decisions and accept responsibilities beyond their maturity; and

“Whereas the Ontario Child and Family Services Act prohibits caring, responsible adults from acting in the best interests of the child at all times;

“Therefore, we as concerned adults in this province respectfully request that the Ontario Child and Family Services Act be amended in order to give control of adolescents back to responsible adults and stop this chaos that enables our young people to destroy their lives.”

It is signed by 98 petitioners from the Brantford area.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Allen: There are about 10 “whereases” in this petition and I will just read two or three of them to give you a sample of the contents thereof.

“To the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

“Whereas there is nothing in Bill 68 that gives effect to David Peterson’s promise of 1987 that he had a very specific plan to reduce auto insurance premium rates, because once this legislation is passed by the Liberals, auto insurance premiums will climb by as much as 50 per cent according to the Minister of Financial Institutions.”

Another clause that addresses another major and important question according to these petitioners is:

“Whereas the Liberal government’s auto insurance legislation will provide enormous taxpayer subsidies to the private corporate auto insurance industry, costing the Ontario taxpayer at least $140 million in the first year alone, we, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

“That Premier Peterson and his Liberal government end this sellout of taxpayers, drivers and victims and that they immediately withdraw Bill 68.”

This is signed by a number of petitioners from the city of Toronto, and I have affixed my signature to it and agree with the petition.

Miss Martel: In the time remaining, I have a petition addressed to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. It reads as follows. The petitioners are concerned that Bill 68 is legislation that makes tragic changes to the rights of innocent, injured motor vehicle victims. The Peterson government made it very clear; the legislation was rammed through, and they wanted it rammed through, notwithstanding that the majority of Ontarians think it is bad legislation. Bill 68 does nothing to respond to David Peterson’s claim in Cambridge in 1987 that he had a very specific plan to reduce auto insurance rates.

In fact, this Liberal government, by this legislation, is going to provide an enormous payout to the auto Insurance industry in this province.

Also, it is going to deprive innocent injured victims of at least $823 million in compensation that should logically go to them. It is going to create a $1 billion payday for the industry and, “Whereas the Peterson Liberals have refused to listen to the hundreds of submissions made to them calling upon them to abandon the legislation, we the undersigned” -- and there are a number of signatories – “request, in fact, that Peterson and his Liberal government end this sellout of taxpayers, drivers and victims and that they immediately withdraw Bill 68.”

I have affixed my signature to it. I agree with the petitioners entirely.

Mr Kormos: I know how the Speaker always prefers that I summarize the

preamble, so I will. This is a lengthy

preamble. Summarized, what it says is that the people across Ontario say that Bill 68, the insurance legislation, is just incredibly bad legislation. It was written by the insurance industry for the insurance industry, for the profitability of the insurance industry and this bad legislation --

The Acting Speaker (Mr Breaugh): Thank you.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

ENERGY AMENDMENT ACT, 1990

Mr Wildman moved first reading of Bill 130,

An Act to amend the Energy Act.

Motion agreed to.

Mr Wildman: The purpose of the bill is to include wood-burning furnaces and stoves and other devices in the definition of an “appliance” and accordingly make them subject to regulation under the Energy Act.

POWERS OF ATTORNEY AMENDMENT ACT, 1990

Mr Sterling moved first reading of Bill 131,

An Act to amend the Powers of Attorney Act.

Motion agreed to.

Mr Sterling: Under our present laws a person can appoint someone else to act on his or her behalf regarding business affairs. I am proposing a durable power of attorney with respect to consent and withdrawal of consent to medical treatment. It is an idea borrowed from the United States, where all 50 American states have durable power of attorney legislation. More recently two Canadian provinces, Quebec and Nova Scotia, have also recognized the need for this legislation.

The durable power of attorney will provide that the authority given to a representative continue in spite of the incapacity of the person giving that authority, and will allow an individual to appoint someone to make a medical decision on his or her behalf when he or she is not in a position to do so.

I would like to recognize Marilynne Seguin and Donald Elliot of the Dying with Dignity group who are with us here today in the Legislature and who support this legislation.

NATURAL DEATH ACT, 1990

Mr Sterling moved first reading of Bill 132,

An Act respecting Natural Death.

Motion agreed to.

Mr Sterling: This bill deals with living wills and is called the Natural Death Act. A living will is a document which is signed by an individual and witnessed, which directs that if the individual is ever in a terminal condition due to an injury or illness and is unable to communicate his or her wishes regarding life-sustaining treatment, then the treatment is to be discontinued. Its essence is that life-sustaining procedures should not be used to artificially prolong life.

There are several advantages to this legislation. It makes it clear that anyone withholding life-sustaining procedures pursuant to the act is not civilly liable. It reaffirms the right of the patient to decide on his or her own medical treatment, and it offers the benefit of clarity as to the wishes of the patient. Not everyone has someone to speak on their behalf in such situations. For those who have no one, this is a method of expressing their intent.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION

Mr D. S. Cooke: Mr Speaker, I would like to raise a point of order on this motion. The point of order will be dealing with standing orders 1(

a) and 1(

b) and 45, and it is the position that we will be taking as a caucus that notice of motion 30 is out of order. These types of points of order have been raised in the past. I think there are new and additional points to consider on this motion. It is also the first time that a closure motion has been brought in since the new rules have gone into effect a year ago.

First of all, perhaps I might look at some of the background of time allocation or closure motions in this Legislature. Mr Speaker, I think you as a long-standing member of the Legislature will recognize that time allocation or closure motions in the past have been very rare, rarely used by the government of the day. However, since 1987 this procedure has become almost routine for this government.

The government now treats time allocation motions, even though they are not provided for in our standing orders, as routine. Its position can be interpreted by us, and is interpreted by us, as a government that wants to use its 93 members to get whatever it, as the majority, wants through, and if it has to use time allocation or closure, it will use it as often as it feels like using it. I think that each and every time the time allocation and closure motions are brought in they need to be examined by the Speaker, need to be considered by the Speaker as they relate to our rules and precedents that have been set.

I have stated on behalf of this caucus in the past that we are not totally opposed to the use, under any circumstances, of time allocation motions. In fact, as has been pointed out and was pointed out by myself, we have on one occasion supported a time allocation motion when it was introduced by the government, and that was when we were dealing with Bill 94, the bill to ban extra-billing. It was our position at the time, and I think it was an appropriate position, that to not bring in time allocation in that circumstance to end the filibuster that was occurring in the Legislature was to give a mixed message to the people of the province, and specifically the doctors.

We were in the midst of a medical and health care crisis, and by not ending the debate on Bill 94 we were encouraging the strike by doctors across this province to continue. So I think there was a very real and appropriate judgement that in that case it was appropriate to pass Bill 94 through the use of a time allocation motion. But I should point out that this was an extraordinary circumstance and is not something that should be seen as a normal process by this government.

We would argue that time allocation, generally speaking, is not provided for in our rules, and since the Bill 94 debate and time allocation we have rewritten the rules of this House twice. The last time they were completed was last year. Not under any of those circumstances did the government raise the issue of building in time allocation provisions in the standing orders of this House. Therefore, the government had the opportunity to negotiate it and deal with the changes in the rules, as the process normally calls for and has been the precedent in this Legislature.

Currently, the only rule we have in the standing orders that comes close to addressing the issue of time allocation is standing order 45. If the government believes that it can make a case for closure, it is our position that it should be making that case for closure under standing order 45, which is in fact the straight closure motion that has been in the orders for quite some time.

Of even more concern to this caucus is the constant additions that this government is putting into the time allocation motions. When we dealt with Bill 94, the time allocation motion was a straight time allocation motion. When we dealt with the Sunday shopping bills, it added the additional feature of dealing with two bills at once. When we dealt with Bill 162 on the time allocation motion, the government dealt with the additional feature of all the amendments being deemed to be moved in committee of the whole, even if they had not been moved and even if they had not been debated.

That, we argued at the time, was a dangerous precedent. With this time allocation motion on Bill 68, that same provision is in place. I will go into our concern about the amendments being dealt with in that manner in the next few moments.

I also want to point out that yesterday the government was prepared to table a changed time allocation motion which, even though it has been withdrawn, demonstrates the fear in our caucus that time allocation motions are being used by this government to abrogate the standing orders that have been agreed to in a consensual way by all three parties. The time allocation motion being considered by the government yesterday, in addition to having what is in the motion we are considering today, had this additional paragraph:

“That on each day on which the House meets following the passage of this order, and until the House has disposed of all the remaining stages of the bill pursuant to this order, the House shall proceed to orders of the day no later than 4 pm and the Speaker shall interrupt any proceedings before the House for the purpose of enforcing this order.”

That demonstrates very clearly that this government, the majority party in here, is prepared to do anything to the standing orders in order to get its legislation through, even if it means changing the routine proceedings that we normally go through. If it had proceeded with that motion, our argument would have been that in effect the rules again were being changed without discussion, without consensus and in a very inappropriate way at the expense of the minority in the Legislature. While this motion was withdrawn, it again demonstrates clearly the attitude of the government, an arrogant attitude that does not respect the rights of the minority.

The rules in this place are here to protect the integrity of this institution, the rules are written and changed by consensus and the rules are here to protect debate and free debate from all members of the Legislature. The government is rewriting the rules and imposing them by motion and by the use of its majority. It is clear that the government will go to whatever extent is necessary to impose its will.

Only you, Mr Speaker, can protect the integrity of this institution. Only you can protect the rights of the minority. Under the rules we now operate under, your ruling cannot be challenged; this is the first time that this type of time allocation motion and a point of order on it has been raised since you have been given that additional power. It is going to be very interesting.

It is certainly incumbent on the Speaker’s office to consider all the points we will be making in the next few moments and to understand that at least in the past the opposition parties had the right to challenge a decision by the Speaker. We no longer have that right; therefore, the obligation and the difficulty of this decision by your office and yourself is further increased.

How has Bill 68 been handled by the government to date? I think that is the most important point in terms of whether this motion is premature at this time. On 20 December a time allocation motion was brought in by the government House leader as to how this bill would be dealt with in committee. The government’s position had been that there would be no public hearings whatsoever across the province on Bill 68. Because of the pressure put on by the opposition parties, public hearings were eventually agreed to.

Keep in mind that Bill 68 is the most significant change in car insurance in the history of Ontario. It is an incredibly contentious bill. Over 50 per cent of the people in this province do not agree with the government’s position. You, Mr Speaker, must determine whether the government is trying to limit debate fairly or whether it is simply trying to end reasonable and legitimate public debate and debate within this Legislature. Again, I repeat this is the most controversial legislation dealing with auto insurance in the history of this province. It is not unusual that there would be extended and full discussion in this place and public hearings in a standing committee.

I just want to read the motion that was passed before Christmas, and I will point out as I go through this that this procedure was done by consensus. The motion that was debated and passed on 20 December was:

“The standing committee on general government to conduct public hearings on and clause-by-clause consideration of Bill 68,

An Act to amend certain Acts respecting Insurance, for a maximum of five weeks; that the committee be authorized to adjourn to places in Ontario for not more than six days; that the bill be reported to the House on 19 March 1990; and that in the event that the committee fails to report the said bill on the date specified, the bill shall be deemed to be passed by the committee and shall be deemed to be reported to the House and the report shall be deemed to be received and adopted by the House.”

That motion was a result of lengthy discussions in the House leaders’ panel, where this type of thing is supposed to be discussed and hammered out. I should point out as well that there was five days of debate on this bill at second reading; so up to that point, up to 20 December, the bill had been introduced for first reading, there was no discussion, the bill came in for second reading and there was five days of debate. I would submit that is not an extended period of time.

In fact, there is no way that could be described as a filibuster or as opposition parties trying to hold up the government’s legislative agenda. Five days for second reading debate for the most controversial auto insurance legislation in the history of the province, I would suggest, is extremely reasonable.

Mr Ballinger: You say that about every bill.

Mr D. S. Cooke: If the member thinks five days is a filibuster, then he has got something to learn about the proper procedures and the role of the opposition parties in dealing with controversial items like this.

A verbal agreement by the House leaders was reached to limit the second reading debate and to deal with public hearings, and that was discussed in the House leaders’ panel where it is most appropriate to deal with it. This demonstrates the fair and acceptable method by which we think these items of conflict should be dealt with in the House leaders’ meetings and through consensus to the extent possible. The opposition has demonstrated very clearly its willingness to discuss this matter in a fair and equitable way with the government.

The second reading debate times were 14 November for two and a half hours, 15 November for three hours, 28 November for three hours and 4 and 5 December for three hours on each of those dates; 14 1/2 hours of second reading debate is not an unreasonable period of time for such a difficult bill -- a bill, as I have said twice already and will repeat, that has the most radical changes in the history of Ontario to the way we provide car insurance in the province.

Then there was the government motion on public hearings, and that again was agreed to by consensus. It was a compromise. We discussed it several weeks in a row in the House leaders’ meetings. The original proposal by the opposition parties was for unlimited public hearings. The original proposal by the government was for no public hearings. The compromise was five weeks. Six days of those five weeks would be travelling throughout the province to get input from areas outside Metropolitan Toronto. It was discussed and ironed out in the appropriate way by the House leaders.

This clearly demonstrates the fairness with which the opposition parties were dealing with the government’s agenda. The minority on this side recognizes and respects the rights of the majority in this place.

The standing committee had 20 days. It was limited to six days outside of Toronto; again, incredibly fair, given that the original position of the opposition parties was for unlimited public hearings as the government extended on Bill 30, the bill that extended funding to separate schools, and as the government extended to the doctors of this province on Bill 94.

It seems rather strange to us that on Bill 94 the government said, “We will hear from every doctor anywhere in the province for ever and ever,” but on this very important item, when it comes to disabled groups and other groups affected by the new automobile insurance plan, the government said, “We are going to cut off debate.” In fact, it originally said it did not want any debate at all.

After the bill was reported on 19 March and the report from the committee agreed to in one day -- one day of debate on the committee’s report -- we had two days in committee of the whole House, and at the end of the second day, the government brought in this closure motion. I think that is clearly an attempt by the government to limit debate by the opposition parties and was premature, to say the very least.

Rule 45 states: “A motion for closure, which may be moved without notice, until it is decided shall preclude all amendment of the main question, and shall be in the following words ....” That deals specifically with the closure. It is the only provision for closure that we have in our rules. “Unless it appears to the Speaker that such motion is an abuse of the standing orders of the House or an infringement of the rights of the minority, the question shall be put forthwith ....”

Those are the guidelines we must follow. It is very clear to us that it is premature, it is an abrogation of the standing orders of this House and it is an infringement of the rights of the minority. This is the only rule we can judge this motion of the government by. The Speaker must decide, is it an abuse of the standing orders and is it an infringement of the opposition or the minority rights? I suggest it is both.

I have already described the negotiations that took place at second reading and in the committee hearing stage. I have already demonstrated, I believe, the limited time that the opposition had. The closure motion calls for two days in committee of the whole House.

In the closure motion that the government has introduced, and I think this is important, there are two days in committee of the whole House. The government has 32 amendments to the bill; the Conservative Party has 30 amendments to the bill. We will have six hours, which will give us five minutes per amendment, barely time for the government to read the amendments, let alone have any exchange between the opposition parties. At the very least, Mr Speaker, I would suggest that this time allocation motion has to be changed and should be ruled out of order, because it is arbitrary in its nature and does not reflect the work that must be done in committee of the whole House.

Of course, the government has come up with a solution. The solution is that, whenever you want to limit debate in committee of the whole House and you have a lot of amendments, you simply put in a

section to the time allocation motion that says, “At the end of the two days, even if the amendments have not been introduced, even if they have not been debated, they are deemed to be introduced, they are deemed to be debated, and they will all be voted on.”

I would suggest that is incredibly unfair. It will result in the process not holding the government accountable for its amendments and not giving the opposition parties the opportunity to properly place and argue their amendments. The government will argue that its amendments have been before the committee for a few weeks, but they have not been debated. The Conservative amendments, as I understand it, have not been presented yet; those were prepared for committee of the whole House discussion. Five minutes per amendment, 62 amendments to be dealt with in two days -- I think that is an incredible abuse of the rights for debate in this Legislature.

How much of the Legislature’s time has been taken by other bills that have resulted in time allocation? Bill 162, the Workers’ Compensation Amendment Act, had 162 hours and 16 minutes up to the committee report stage. Bill 68 has had closure brought in more quickly than any other bill in the history of this Legislature. Bill 30, the separate school bill, had 390 hours and 43 minutes. Bill 68, which is the most radical change in auto insurance ever in the history of this province, has not even come close to that.

This bill is equally as controversial as Bill 30 or Bills 113 and 114, the Sunday shopping bills, or Bill 162. Yet the government has brought in closure after two days in committee of the whole House, and this process, as I said, previous to that was negotiated by the House leaders.

Clearly, the government wants to shut down debate on this bill for political reasons. It is up to the Speaker to protect the rights of the opposition parties to have proper debate on controversial items that are before the public. They are using their majority to muzzle the opposition. There is no other way of describing it, Mr Speaker. You cannot allow this to happen.

I would like to refer very briefly to Erskine May and quote from page 408:

“In many sessions in order to secure the passage of particularly important and controversial legislation, governments have been confronted with the choice, unless special powers are taken, of cutting down their normal program to an undesirable extent, or of prolonging the sittings of Parliament, or else of acknowledging the impotence of the majority in the House in the face of the resistance of the minority.

In such circumstances, resort is had...to the most drastic method of curtailing debate known to procedure, namely, the setting of a date by which a committee must report, or the allocation of a specified number of days to the various stages of a bill and of limited amounts of time to particular portions of a bill. Orders made under this procedure are known as ‘allocation of time’ orders and coloquially as ‘guillotine’ motions.

They may be regarded as the extreme limit to which procedure goes in affirming the rights of the majority at the expense of the minorities of the House -- and it cannot be denied that they are capable of being used in such a way as to upset the balance, generally so carefully preserved, between the claims of business and the rights of debate.

But the harshness of this procedure is to some extent mitigated either by consultation between the party leaders or in the business committee” -- which in our case is the House leaders’ panel -- ”in order to establish the greatest possible measure of agreement as to the most satisfactory disposal of the time is available.”

In this particular circumstance, this argument in Erskine May is very relevant in that all the sections of this bill on the second reading debate, the public hearings and the debate of the report coming from the standing committee on general government were all dealt with by consensus and by discussion in the House leaders’ panel. Two days after we get into committee of the whole House, the government says, “Well, we have dealt with this by consensus in the past.” At six o’clock -- they do not even give us advance notice; no discussion at all in the House leaders’ panel -- they bring in this closure motion.

This bill had been dealt with by consensus for the first two stages, but the government did not even attempt to use this process; had it attempted the process, it may have worked. For that reason, in addition to the others, I think this motion is out of order.

To sum up, I believe this motion is out of order because (1) there is no provision for time allocation motions in our rules and (2) the government is rewriting the rules of this House with its time allocation motions.

The Speaker must protect the integrity of the rules and the integrity of this institution, and the Speaker clearly must protect the rights of the minority and the rights of free debate in this place. This bill has been handled by consensus until now, and the importance of this bill and the fact that there are 62 amendments to be dealt with in the committee of the whole means that the solution that the government has introduced is unworkable and is unfair to the public at large and certainly to the opposition parties to have their positions put forward.

If the government brought in a different type of time allocation motion, perhaps different arguments could be made. Perhaps if it had waited and had been able to make a case, this motion -- even at some point in the future -- would have been in order. But it is clearly not in order today after only two days of discussion in committee of the whole and after the entire other sections of debate were dealt with by consensus.

There has not been a clearer example of the government abusing the rights of the minority with the use of time allocation motions than there is in this case. I ask you, Mr Speaker, to say to the government very clearly that if it is not going to bring in amendments to the standing orders to set out the criteria of when time allocation motions can be used, then you, Mr Speaker, in each of these cases are going to have to judge them by their merit. It is clear that there is no merit to this resolution that is put before the Legislature today, and it should be ruled out of order.

Mr Eves: Mr Speaker, on the same point of order: Although I am not going to be as long as my colleague the House leader for the official opposition, I do want to get some points on the record on why our caucus is supporting his point of order.

First of all, Mr Speaker, I would like to quote to you from Erskine May, page 1, which is always a good place to start, “The purpose of many of the rules is to safeguard the rights of a minority of the House: to guard against the development of an ‘elective dictatorship’ which some have predicted.” Erskine May goes on to say, on page 1, “Above all, the balance between the right of governments to obtain their business and the right of the House as a whole to examine it... is maintained through the discretionary powers given to the Speaker.”

Erskine May goes on, in

chapter 19 at page 400, to state that closure and time allocation motions, often referred to as guillotine motions, “are felt to be an unfortunate necessity and to be justified only by the pressure of business or to counteract obstruction.”

On page 406, Erskine May talks of the Speaker’s role and goes on to say, “The intervention of the Chair regarding closure is restricted to occasions when the motion is made in abuse of the rules