June 4,

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLI No.

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I rise today to release the

report commissioned by this government into the operations of the Sprung

Greenhouse.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER WELLS: It is.

In releasing the report, I wish to thank Mr. Justice Seamus

O'Regan for his thorough examination of all facets of the operation of the

former greenhouse.

Mr. Speaker, as I have stated repeatedly, the concern of this

government has been for the people of this Province who questioned an

expenditure of $23 million by the former administration on a venture that, in

the determination of those who were in a position to know -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER WELLS: Yes, it is pretty close to twenty-four

now.

- was destined to failure from the very beginning. While the

report indicates that there was -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: While the report indicates that there was

no criminal wrongdoing, it establishes clearly that the loss was due to gross

incompetence in the political support and handling of the Sprung venture.

The question, Mr. Speaker, is does this government now spend

more of our taxpayers' dollars by holding a full-scale public hearing to

determine the level of incompetence that was involved in the management of the

operation. This government has no desire to conduct a political witch-hunt

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I would ask hon. members to my right, please, to refrain from

interruptions. This is where hon. members are given a chance to respond, and

hopefully in the response they will make their points; but members should not

interrupt.

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: I don't need to go back to the beginning

to start, but just to get this last bit in context, Mr. Speaker.

The question, Mr. Speaker, is does this government now spend

more of our taxpayers' dollars by holding a full-scale public hearing to

determine the level of incompetence that was involved in the management of the

operation. This government has no desire to conduct a political witch-hunt to

embarrass members opposite or those who were members of the previous

administration and are now in private life.

I hope that in releasing the report, Mr. Speaker, we will

satisfy the need to assure the people of the Province that there was no criminal

wrongdoing, just incredible incompetence in the management of this issue.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want to thank the Premier for a copy of his statement,

previous to coming into the House.

The first thing I would say to the Premier is that one of the

things that should be released with this report is a copy of The Auditor

General's Report that said there was no need of even looking in to the Sprung

enterprise. That is the thing I would like to see (inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Speaker, furthermore, the Premier in

his statement indicates that one of the main reasons for this report and the

outcome of the report was gross incompetence, then I say, Mr. Speaker, that we

should have a judicial inquiry and a public inquiry based on what this

administration has done the last three years, every week for the last three

years it would be based on incompetence, because I have seen absolutely nothing.

Mr. Speaker, I say one other thing, this was a political football for two or

three years; the Premier had no other choice but to hold an inquiry to try to

satisfy what he had been saying around the Province previous to the last

election and since, and now as I said, Mr. Speaker, there will be a lot more

inquiries held, after the hon. members leave office in the next year, it will be

based on incompetence. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries

MR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce that

the Department of Fisheries will again this year be contributing funds to the

Pentecostal Assemblies of Newfoundland for their caplin-for-food-aid project.

This year, $75,000 is being made available for that purpose. Last year's

provincial funding provided much needed help to the Mozambiquean refugees at

camps in Zimbabwe. Through the African Food Aid Program, caplin is purchase and

dried in the Province and then shipped to refugee camps in Africa. The

protein-rich caplin is a substitute for "Kapenta", a freshwater fish which is in

short supply in Zimbabwe.

This program by the Pentecostal Assemblies, Mr. Speaker, in

addition to providing assistance to African refugees, has direct benefits for

the caplin industry and employment in this Province. As a result of the 1991

project, the Pentecostal Assemblies purchased nearly $500,000 worth of dried

male caplin from local processors and fishermen and more that 800 person weeks

of employment were created for plant workers. Golden Shell Fisheries of

Hickman's Harbour, High Seafoods of Glovertown and E. J. Green of Winterton were

involved in processing dried caplin for the food aid project in 1991. Again this

year, Mr. Speaker, plants will be operating and drying caplin at a time when

they would otherwise be idle.

As and additional benefit, this project helps to better

utilize our caplin resource, providing a use for male caplin, most of which is

normally discarded. Other markets such as Japan want only the roe-bearing female

caplin and in past years as many as 50,000 tons of male caplin have been

discarded due to lack of markets. This year, Mr. Speaker, the Pentecostal

Assemblies plans to expand its purchase and export of dried caplin. Funds

contributed from the Province, as well as those contributed by the Pentecostal

Assemblies, will be matched four to one by CIDA through the Canadian Food Grains

Bank.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the Pentecostal

Assemblies of Newfoundland and their Outreach Ministries for the outstanding job

they have done in organizing and running this program. It not only provides much

needed food to refugees in Africa but also provides benefits for our local

caplin industry. We are pleased to be a part of this most worthwhile project.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Opposition House Leader.

MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, very much, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to thank the minister for providing me with a

copy of his statement prior to the sitting of the House and I want to commend

the Department of Fisheries for once again this year contributing some $75,000

to the Pentecostal Assemblies for this very worthwhile initiative. It has been a

concern, I guess, for years now in the Province that there were fish products

that were not being fully utilized, being discarded, good protein, and good

food. There are countries in the world and people that need food and are hungry

so it is a very, very worthwhile initiative by the Pentecostal Assemblies and a

very good expenditure I say to the minister and his department. I want to

commend both for that.

The minister makes reference that in past years as much as

50,000 tons of male caplin have been discarded due to lack of markets and that

is pretty alarming when you think that it is good protein and good food. While

this is a good initiative I just want to bring to the minister's attention that

there really is a great need now for the marketing arm of his department and for

the Department of Development and so on to look at further utilization of male

caplin to see if there can be further usage to create employment and to give

fishermen and so on benefits and to provide good food for people in the world. I

call upon the minister to become very active with the marketing arm of his

department and through other departments of government to see if there are some

other possibilities to utilize the male caplin that are being discarded.

The other wish we have is that at least this year we will

have a caplin fishery. There are a lot of doubts right now about the state of

the caplin resource. We hope there will be a caplin fishery and there will be

usage found for the male caplin that are now being discarded.

MR. SPEAKER: Before proceeding with the routine

proceedings, on behalf of hon. members I want to welcome to the public galleries

today eighty Grade 1X students from Mary Queen of Peace school here in St.

John's. They are accompanied by their teachers, Mrs. Eileen Carson, Mrs.

Margaret Ryan, Mrs. Denise Cleary, Mrs. Mary Lou Marshall, and Mr. Fred Butler.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is directed to the Minister of Education.

Yesterday, Labrador West residents were shocked to learn of

announcements by school boards of the drastic and massive cutbacks to funds for

teacher assistants in Western Labrador. One school board cut 73 hours back to 18

hours a day, and the other school board cut 50 per cent. So, one school board

cut 75 per cent and the other, 50 per cent. I wonder if the Minister of

Education could tell us on what basis this decision was made?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, no cuts have been made in

student assistants anywhere in the Province. No decisions have been made with

respect to any cuts for student assistants.

A year ago, the Department of Education and the government

realized that there were tremendous variations in the usage of student

assistants throughout the Province. In line with our policy of providing

equality throughout the Province and guaranteeing efficiency of spending and

accountability, the department conducted a major review of all student

assistants throughout the Province -

AN HON. MEMBER: At the request of the union?

DR. WARREN: Yes, at the request of the union and with the

co-operation of the union.

That study was completed, I think, in April. Two or three

days ago we had some discussion with superintendents about the findings. What we

found, of course, is what we hypothesized, that there are some school districts

which received numbers in excess of what we considered a reasonable level of

service.

There are a number of school districts, particularly, St.

John's, where the numbers of student assistants were very low relative to the

need as established by this study. These data have been discussed with the

superintendents, but no decisions have been made about what will happen next

year or in the future, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: Mr. Speaker, that is not what the residents

of Labrador West were told yesterday. The minister pays lip service to equality.

Why doesn't he do something for equality in education and raise the level of

education, not lower it? That is what the residents of Western Labrador are

asking.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. A. SNOW: Is the minister saying that the schools in

Labrador West can maintain the same programs and services next year as this

year, with the manpower cuts they have been asked to impose on the school

boards?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, we put, this year, into rural

schools in particular, into the operation of the school boards, an extra $12

million to help school boards throughout this Province. This government believes

in equality of educational opportunity and we put our money where our mouth is,

Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

DR. WARREN: Right? For years they permitted certain

districts in this Province to spend half what was spent from school taxes in

other areas, but this government changed that. Mr. Speaker, the decision -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

DR. WARREN: May I repeat, Mr. Speaker? I talked with the

representatives of the parents last night from Labrador West, and I told them

that no final decision had been made. I don't want to lead anybody astray, in

order to live within our budget - and this year, I think we increased the

student assistant budget from $3.5 million to $4.8 million, even with the

freeze. We didn't freeze salaries for student assistants. We reclassified. We

increased the amount for student assistants in this Province, as a result of

reclassification, from $3.5 million to $4.8 million.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

DR. WARREN: We will be providing to student assistants

throughout the Province precisely the same number, almost exactly the same

number, of student assistant hours this year as last year. There may have to be

some re-allocations. In areas where they don't have adequate hours to provide a

reasonable level of service, we will increase these. In areas where they have

what the department judges to be excessive in terms of what is a reasonable

standard of services, we may have to reduce some of these. I don't want to lead

the public astray. But we are going to provide equality of opportunity

throughout the Province in this area, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: Again, I want to repeat that the minister

should be levelling up, not down. The people of Western Labrador have grown

accustomed to a good level of education and this minister wants to tear that

down. Mr. Speaker, this is not fair to the people of Western Labrador. Now, is

the minister really telling the people in Western Labrador to stop trying to

integrate these students into the classroom? Is he telling the people in Western

Labrador to bring these students, lock them up in closets, isolate them, put

them in the basements, lock them away? Is that what he is trying to tell the

people of western Labrador?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I don't get angry very often,

but I get angry about that charge about the department and this minister. If

there is anything that we believe in, it is equality of educational opportunity.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

DR. WARREN: And we are not going to move back to the kind

of policies that I might say exist in certain parts of this country today, of

segregating. We believe in mainstreaming, a balanced mainstreaming, a balanced

integration, and this government will continue to promote that.

We were the government that put the student assistants in

place.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

DR. WARREN: $3.5 million. We were the ones who put the

student assistants in place -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

DR. WARREN: - and we are going to continue.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I heard the Opposition House Leader say what he knows to be

an unparliamentary utterance. I ask the hon. member to withdraw it.

MR. MATTHEWS: Gladly, Mr. Speaker, I will withdraw

anything that is unparliamentary, but I think that the minister should deal with

the truth.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The hon. the minister.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, student assistants were provided

through the Department of Social Services before 1989. In the Fall of 1989 we

put in place the present system of student assistants. We are providing

educational programs for them. We have increased their salaries, even in a

freeze year, and there will be approximately the same number next year in the

Province, as a whole, as we have this year.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: The minister may be getting angry, but he

should also be ashamed. He should be ashamed of what he is doing!

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. A. SNOW: He should be ashamed of sending the message

to the handicapped people of this Province, and in the middle -

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I would ask the hon. member to get on with his question.

MR. A. SNOW: Is the minister ashamed of these policies

that he is putting out to the people of this Province? I ask the minister again:

Is he ashamed of what he is doing, especially during this week of National

Access Awareness Week?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, this government enunciated,

shortly after it came to power, a Triple E educational agenda for this Province,

for the future. Equality was number one, and in the past two or three years we

have done a great deal to promote equality, and we have just begun.

I assure you, we are not going to tolerate the kinds of

inequalities that the former administration tolerated in this Province, where

the kind of education you got was determined by where you lived, how rich your

parents were and the kind of economic situation in the community in which you

resided. We are not going to tolerate that, Mr. Speaker. We are going to promote

equality of educational opportunity for all Newfoundlanders, particularly people

who have been disadvantaged in the past. We believe in providing equality,

particularly for those who have been disadvantaged in the past.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the

Minister of Education, who said he is angry. I say to the minister, I am angry

too because of your lack of respect for the truth.

Mr. Speaker, this minister, who goes around and smiles and

shakes hands with everyone, has cut the student assistants to the RC School

Board on the Burin Peninsula by 50 per cent, and the superintendent of the

school board was notified of that by officials of your department, I would

suggest, in a meeting just a couple of days ago.

Now, Mr. Speaker, in order to cut student assistants to these

students on the Burin Peninsula, to the RC School Board, let me ask the

minister: Why does he feel it necessary to balance the books of this government

on the backs of the disadvantaged children in our society?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: It is rather interesting, Mr. Speaker, that

the report on Sprung was issued today. That money would go a long way to help

the disadvantaged in this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, the number of student assistants

provided for school districts is determined by need. We have conducted a study

of need. We have a report on the assessments done by two consultants. I think

they started in November and completed the study in April. No decisions have

been made with respect to any of these boards as of yet. We are considering the

report and, within the next three to four weeks, hopefully before the end of

June, we will be able to notify boards as to their allocation for 1993 - 1994.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, again we are seeing an example of

the minister not being honest. The word has gone out to the school boards. That

is what has happened. I also say to the minister, that if he had some of the $19

million that you gave to your buddies to build hospitals in this Province on a

cost-plus contract in the last year, it would go a long way, as well, towards

helping the disadvantaged.

My question to the Minister of Education: In the elementary

school system in Marystown - and I, today, have spoken to school board people,

two teachers, two parents - there will be a reduction from approximately six to

two student assistants. Tonight there is a meeting in Marystown, a public

meeting called by all the people who are going to be affected because of the

action of this minister. Let me ask the minister to tell the truth. Will he now

say that the word he sent out to the administrators of the school boards in this

Province is cancelled, it no longer exists, and the disadvantaged in our society

will be treated fairly as they have been in the past?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, what was discussed - may I say

for the third or fourth time - at a meeting in Gander of superintendents was the

report of the consultants. No decisions have been made with respect to what will

happen to this data or what will happen to each board for next year. Over the

next few days, two or three weeks, the department will examine all the data and

then inform school boards of their final decision.

Mr. Speaker, one other additional point, this study was

conducted, not only with the co-operation of the union but also in consultation

with board officials, with assistant superintendents responsible for special

needs, for consultants. The study was a study of needs district by district by

district, for the first time in the Province. We believe there should be

comparable levels of service throughout the Province. Over the next few days we

will consider that report and make decisions as to what will happen in September

of 1992.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West, on a supplementary.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, for the minister to say there is

no decision made, he realizes that people in this Province don't trust him

saying that, because he has said that too often before and has not kept his

word. That is what has happened. This minister, this Premier and this government

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the member to get on with the question. This is not a

debate.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, the question is why has this

minister, this Premier and this government sacrificed everyone who depend on

them including the aged, the pensioners? I ask the minister - he tries to be

this nice smooth person - I ask him in the name of God, in the name of common

decency and all that is good, will you refrain from attacking the disadvantaged

in our Province, the ones who need teacher assistants? Will the minister do

that? I will ask him this and I hope he answers it this time. Never mind

slipping around it. Will he let the professional educators in the school boards

determine the number of teacher assistants that are needed by each board, and

then when the educators in each school board determines the number of teacher

assistants that each board needs, will he then provide them with the money to

hire the teacher assistants?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, the board officials and all the

professional people who were involved in conducing this study - board officials

and consultants were involved in conducting this study - they were consulted.

The data are based on the views of a large number of groups including the

consultants.

Mr. Speaker, the problem is that we have a budget of

approximately $5 million for student assistants. It has increased $1.3 million

since last year. We have needs in some districts not now being met. St. John's I

mentioned is one area where there has been a concentration of students who last

year didn't have a student assistant. There are many other -

MR. TOBIN: That is your fault.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I ask the minister to take his place, please. I would ask the

Member for Burin - Placentia West, please, to try to restrain himself. Members

aren't suppose to interfere to the extent where it interrupts the speaker. The

Member for Burin - Placentia West was across that threshold, so I would ask him,

please, to restrain himself.

The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, we found out when we conducted

this study that there were people in St. John's and many other districts we now

know should have had a student assistant in the past and didn't. We are now

going to provide that kind of service. There are students who have been

disadvantaged and haven't had the benefit of a student assistant.

There are other areas of the Province where we believe

perhaps the need itself does not dictate the level of hours that they now have.

Mr. Speaker, we are going to provide equality and share around to ensure that

people, irrespective of where they live, get treated fairly in this Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, when the disadvantaged in this

Province are being attacked by the Minister of Education it is difficult to

restrain yourself.

I ask the minister why does he see it necessary to down

level, to take from Labrador West and the Burin Peninsula and other places in

the Province to give somewhere else? Why won't he level up rather than level

down? Why take away a service that is needed? I also ask the minister if he

would come clean and tell us whether or not the study was done by professional

people from the Department of Education, or whether it was done from the budget

choppers in the President of Treasury Board's division?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, the allocation of student

assistants is based on need. If the need exists, the Department of Education

will provide for student assistants. If there is no need there, and we have

found examples of where student assistants were used in areas outside of the

traditional functions, in principals offices through no fault of the student

assistants themselves, because students weren't in the school. We found examples

of improper utilization of these hours. We are going to ensure, Mr. Speaker,

that where student assistants are provided that the level will be determined by

need. I guess that is why, Mr. Speaker, in some areas we will increase the

number of hours, and in others there may be over a period of time an adjustment

downward.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for

the Premier. It concerns his statements reported in the Ottawa Citizen of

yesterday concerning aboriginal rights. The Premier said that the provinces

could opt out of the agreement on aboriginal self government, and called it a

recipe for chaos. Mr. Speaker, why will the Premier not accept that, if what is

being recognised is truly an inherent right to self-government, that it would

not be possible for provincial governments to opt out? Why will the Premier not

admit that the only true recipe for chaos are the actions of the Premier himself

in making such irresponsible statements at a time like this when national unity

is at stake?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: I find it difficult to believe that the

hon. member is that ill informed about the issue. I can't believe it, but may be

he is. Let me say very clearly what I said to a lady named Joan Bryden from

Southam News who did an interview.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make the

statement without the garbled mumbling that I hear coming from the Member for

Torngat Mountains. It disrupts the whole House, and if he would refrain himself

from such constant, unintelligent, garbled mumbling, maybe the House would hear

the answer. Nobody can give a sensible answer in the face of that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

Hon. members have been interrupting and the Chair has stood

on several occasions to remind hon. members that this is not an accepted

parliamentary procedure. I would ask hon. members please to respect the rules of

the House, and hon. members ought to do that.

The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: This is an important question, Mr.

Speaker, and ought to be addressed sensibly, not in this manner. I was asked by

Joan Bryden what was the basis for the suggestion that amendments respecting

aboriginal rights had to be unanimous, and did I share that view. I said: no, I

do not think it requires unanimity, but there is the provision in the

constitutional amending procedure, under

Section 38, where the powers of the

Legislature or proprietary rights of the provinces could be affected, then any

province which passed a dissenting resolution, the change would not apply to

that province, provided it had been passed by seven of the ten Legislatures

having 50 per cent of the population. So I was simply giving her an explanation

as to why I thought it did not require unanimity, but there was that

qualification.

She said: well, is that what Newfoundland is considering? I

said: no, we have not considered it. The simple fact is, we have not considered

it. Out of this whole question that whole story has arisen. Now she also asked

me what I thought of the proposal for aboriginal self-government. I explained to

her that I supported the concept of aboriginal self-government, but that I was

very concerned about simply providing a constitutional change that would

recognise an inherent right to self-government with nothing any more than that,

that would be justiciable. That is, capable of being determined by the courts

within three years if there was not agreement on it.

My problem with it is, what does self-government mean? What

direction is going to be given to the courts to interpret it if there is not

agreement on it? Self-government means everything from clearing the snow off the

streets, Mr. Speaker, to acting as an international nation, on the international

scene.

Now it is obvious that we have to have some means of putting

it in place in an orderly way. The other thing that is proposed is that it would

apply to all aboriginal people on or off reservation. So what I said was: does

that mean that a person who is of aboriginal origin could walk down Water Street

in St. John's and break whatever provincial, federal or other municipal law the

person wanted, and say: I am sorry, your laws do not apply to me, I am

self-governing. That would be a recipe for chaos.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER WELLS: I do not know what the hon. member is

saying, but no doubt he will do it in a follow up question. If that is what it

could mean, that would be a recipe for chaos. We have to deal with it in a

sensible way. Besides, it is a complete abandonment of political responsibility

for political leaders of this country to say: we will just write it in, and if

we cannot agree on it, we will let the Supreme Court determine it. What gave the

nine judges who sit on the Supreme Court the ability or the right to determine

the political structure of the nation? They should only interpret words, not put

in place political structures and ideas.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East, on

a supplementary.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Obviously, once again, everybody is out of step but our

'Clyde'.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. HARRIS: I didn't hear that, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

MR. HARRIS: I won't mention reports yet, Mr. Speaker,

until I get a chance to read it.

Mr. Speaker, why will the Premier not admit that these kinds

of extremist statements like aboriginals flouting criminal laws on Water Street,

really betray a patronizing kind of attitude towards aboriginals, the same, Mr.

Speaker, as we heard this morning on CBC, when the Premier was talking about the

people of Davis Inlet. Does he plan to go up to Davis Inlet and spank Kathie

Riche for disagreeing with his views on how to conduct the affairs of Davis

Inlet?

Mr. Speaker, I ask the Premier, does this not betray his

government's attitude towards the aboriginals as really a colonial people?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, people who hold political

offices have a responsibility to be intellectually honest and to state positions

with intellectual certainty and with courage, not intellectual cowardice. We

can't hide from the fact that this is a possible result, merely because, in

Canada we have so shamefully treated our aboriginal people for 125 or 250 years,

we fail to properly be fair to them; we fail to take them into account. We wrote

a Constitution in 1867 that put six words in it dealing with aboriginal people,

that failed to even consider their wishes.

Well, now it is time to deal with it on a sensible basis, but

we shouldn't let our failures of the past and our sense of guilt or shame, if

you will, about our failures of the past cloud our good judgement about what we

are creating for the future. We have a responsibility to the 26 million people

of this nation to put in place a proper structure for government, and the mere

fact that some members, some political parties are reluctant to express their

opinions, for fear it might cause aboriginal people not to think nicely of them,

does not mean that I, as the Premier of this Province, can fail to address the

issue fairly.

I have spoken for many months about the need to provide for

aboriginal self-government. I committed this government to discussing it with

the Inuit long before it was discussed on the constitutional stage when we

started the land claims negotiation. I told them we were prepared to negotiate

self-government for the Inuit people on that basis, without a constitutional

structure because I thought it was the right thing to do. But, Mr. Speaker, I am

not afraid to express my opinion of the impropriety of going to the extent that

is now being proposed because some people are afraid it is politically

unacceptable to express any opinion that may be contrary to what the aboriginal

people wish.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER WELLS: People with a sense of responsibility must

do what is right.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

The Chair has warned the Member for Torngat Mountains on

several occasions, and I alert the hon. member that the Chair will exercise the

authority it has if the member doesn't follow the rules of the House.

The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

A final supplementary regarding the constitutional process,

itself. Why, Mr. Speaker, are this Province and the Premier arrogating speaking

on the Constitution and participation in the constitutional negotiations to

himself and his party alone? Why does he not follow the example of the

Government of Nova Scotia and the Province of Ontario, in including other

political parties in these negotiations so more than one view is expressed and

more than one party has access to and is involved in that process at the

national level? Why doesn't the Premier do that, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: I understand, Mr. Speaker, the reasoning

and the thinking of Premier Cameron of Nova Scotia. He has a comme ci, comme a

Legislative situation and he is trying to cope with that. I understand that

thinking. Premier Harcourt of B.C. doesn't have Gordon Wilson speaking at the

table. Prime Minister Mulroney, doesn't have the hon. John Chrtien speaking at

the table - those governments are speaking, the ministers concerned. Now, if

some particular province like Nova Scotia, for example, wants to bring its

Leader of the Opposition, I don't quarrel with that, that is up to them. I think

it inappropriate for Newfoundland at this stage. The government is speaking for

the Government of this Province because it was chosen by the people to do so,

and we intend to do so

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the Premier, why, over the last couple of

years of Constitutional reform efforts, has the Premier retained a Central

Canadian lawyer, Neil Finklestein, and how much has the government paid Neil

Finklestein?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Why have we retained him? Because he has a

superb constitutional mind. He has the kind of expert knowledge in

constitutional law and the underlying principles as opposed to constitutional

policy and structure in the political science sense. He has the kind of

knowledge and expertise that is absolutely urgent, from Newfoundland's point of

view, to ensure that our interests were protected and that is why his services

were being engaged. Now, the fact is, he has provided us with tremendous service

at very low cost by comparison with normal rates. I will get the precise extent

of the service he has provided and then I will table it. Then I will also table

the bills engaged by the former firm, Peter Laugheed's firm (inaudible).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WELLS: If you want to see real outside legal

fees, then, you will see them.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired.

Before proceeding on to -

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Before proceeding on to other matters -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I would ask the hon. members, while the Chair is speaking -

before proceeding to other business, the Chair would like to bring to the

attention of hon. members, the presence in the gallery of thirty students from

Ackerman Elementary School, Green's Harbour, from the district of Trinity - Bay

de Verde. They are accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Hiscock and Mr. Penney.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MS. VERGE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Humber East, on a

point of order.

MS. VERGE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The government has the report of Mr. Justice Steele into the

Efford Public Service Commission scandal. I understand, Mr. Efford, the subject

of the probe, has the report. Why has the report not been tabled in the House of

Assembly? Why is it being kept from the people of the Province?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I had it. I intended to

prepare a statement for tabling in the morning. If hon. members want, I don't

need to prepare a statement. I am quite prepared to table the report now.

It was delivered to the government last week. We have had a

chance to meet since and consider it. Cabinet met today and approved the tabling

of the report. I didn't have time to do any preparation of a statement in

connection with it, but perhaps, Mr. Speaker, I don't need to prepare a

statement. I am quite prepared to table the report now.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) by leave.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) got it now.

AN HON. MEMBER: We shouldn't have to force it out of you.

MR. SPEAKER: The member spoke on a point of order. The

Chair's ruling, of course, is there was no point of order.

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on

tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, entitled "An Act To Amend The Department

Of Health Act". (Bill No. 38).

Answers to Questions

For which Notice has been Given

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: On Answers to Questions, Mr. Speaker, the

Minister of Development had promised to - this is Answers to Questions. I just

wanted to wake him up.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Development.

MR. FUREY: Those Trade Ministers' meetings do that to

you.

Mr. Speaker, I was waiting for information to come from the

Western region. It has arrived. I am prepared to table this today, and provide

hon. members the background, which basically deals with the purpose of funding

for each company, the net economic benefit, the type of loan, the amount, the

date it was done, and the employment impact. Each of those background sheets has

been prepared.

I haven't had a chance, I say to the hon. the Member for

Mount Pearl, to look through these carefully, because I didn't arrive back from

the Trade Ministers' meeting until late last night, so if there are some

companies missing I would be prepared to seek these out and find out what they

are.

I ask him to handle this with care. Criticize the government,

but don't attack companies.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: Since we are on Answers to Questions, the

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation last week promised to table the

log of the Premier's limousine. I wonder when he is going to do that?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: To that point of order - I assume, Mr.

Speaker, it is a point of order we are dealing with?

MR. SPEAKER: I thought the President of Treasury Board

was standing on Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given.

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, what's been happening is that the

members of the Opposition have been standing up and asking questions. They can

only do that on a point of order, so I am wondering if it is a point of order

before the House.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. We are into the

period of Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given. When an hon.

member stands to ask why a question has not been provided, it is obviously not a

point of order.

MR. BAKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

My understanding is that in Answers to Questions for which

Notice has been Given, ministers stand and answer questions for which previous

notice has been given, and so on, and that in order for members of the

Opposition to stand up, they have to stand on a point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: Precisely.

MR. BAKER: That was my point. There were no points of

order. I was wondering what was going on, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The Chair has ruled that there is no point

of order. An hon. member can stand to ask why a question hasn't been asked, but

there is obviously no point of order.

Orders of the Day

MR. BAKER: Motion 5, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Motion 5.

Motion, the hon. the President of Treasury Board to introduce

a bill, "An Act To Amend The Election Act Respecting The Holding Of A Plebiscite

In The Province," carried. (Bill No. 36).

On motion, Bill No. 36 read a first time, ordered read a

second time on tomorrow.

MR. BAKER: Order 1, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Order 1.

On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of

the Whole, Mr. Speaker left the Chair.

Committee of the Whole

MR. CHAIRMAN (Barrett): Order, please!

The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. BAKER: Mr. Chairman, that is a strange way to get

into Committee. I want to now consider the Executive Council Estimates that we

were doing the previous day.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a few

questions on the Office of the Executive Council. One of the first - I do not

know if the Premier or the President of Treasury Board after, when I am

finished, would like to probably answer them if possible. If not, he can just

take it under advisement and get me the answers.

Under the first one, 2.2.03, Executive Support - Professional

Services: Budgeted was $210,000 in 1991-1992, it was revised at $205,000, but

this year, it was down to $118,000 for Professional Services. I would like for

the minister or probably the Premier or someone to answer that.

MR. BAKER: Just a second, now. Where is that?

MR. WOODFORD: You cannot hear, and the hon. members there

- 2.2.03, under Executive Support, page 15 of the Executive Council. Under

Professional Services, 2.2.03, Executive Support, was budgeted, like I said,

$210,000, and spent $205,000 under the revision, then, this year, it was

$118,000. I was just wondering why the big discrepancy. What was really needed

under that particular program, within budget, probably last year, but was almost

$100,000 in the difference for this? Would it have anything to do with the

Constitution or otherwise?

MR. BAKER: Was that (inaudible) the Premier's Office or

Executive Support?

MR. WOODFORD: Yes, the office of the Executive Council,

Premier's Office. Right at the bottom, 2.2.03. Page 15 under the estimates.

Right at the bottom of the page, 2.2.03. Well there is not much point in me

going on -

PREMIER WELLS: (Inaudible) Premier's office or the

Cabinet Secretariat. If it is on the bottom of page 15 it is the Cabinet

Secretariat.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes.

PREMIER WELLS: So it is the Cabinet Secretariat.

MR. WOODFORD: 2.2.03.

PREMIER WELLS: 2.2.03. Okay, it is the Cabinet

Secretariat.

MR. WOODFORD: Executive Support.

AN HON. MEMBER: How can they run the country if they

can't even follow their own budget?

MR. WOODFORD: Professional Services under 2.2.03 last

year was -

PREMIER WELLS: $118,000.

MR. WOODFORD: The year before it was budgeted at

$210,000, revised at $205,00 which was pretty well on par, but this year - the

question I am asking is why the big difference in Professional Services? What

was it spent on?

MR. BAKER: Did you want them answered one at a time?

MR. WOODFORD: (Inaudible) as long as we get the ten -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. BAKER: Okay. Professional Services, the original

budget in 91-92 was $210,000, the expenditure was $205,000, and now it is cut

back to $118,000.

MR. WOODFORD: Yes.

MR. BAKER: This particular Professional Service is to

continue development of document management system with costs to include

hardware and software purchases, implementation of system and conversion of

existing documents to data base system. The point is that when you are into that

kind - this is really computer expenditure, and the amounts can vary from year

to year depending upon what you need. So a lot of the hardware was put in last

year and now this is just continuing that particular program. So this is not

travel or anything like that. It is not contracting out in the sense that the

hon. member is asking about. This is computer services.

MR. WOODFORD: Okay, Mr. Chairman. I will move on to the

Classification Appeal Boards, 2.2.09. That is under Office of the Executive

Council, Cabinet Secretariat as well, page 17. Is there a lot of work in that?

There must have been a lot of work under the classification appeal boards this

year under Professional Services. That jumped up over $30,000 right there.

Probably the minister could get that for me after. I didn't think there would be

much in that particular category this year, but it seems like there was an awful

lot of people trying to appeal their classifications.

MR. BAKER: Which one (inaudible).

MR. WOODFORD: 2.2.09 under the same thing, just the next

page over, page 17.

PREMIER WELLS: (Inaudible) 2.2.09?

MR. WOODFORD: 2.2.09.05, Professional Services. Are you

expecting more this year because of the freeze? Or is it because of some

particular -

MR. BAKER: What we are doing is the original budget for

last year was $70,000. The expenses were $103,000, and there was an increase and

we are projecting the same $103,000 for next year. That stays the same. That is

the per diem allowance that is paid to members of the board, but it also covers

expenses related to the retention of outside legal assistance so I am assuming

they are projecting the same level of activity in terms of that matter will

continue for the next year.

MR. WOODFORD: As I said when you look at the sum it is

not the amount altogether but it shows a lot of activity with regard to the

appeal process so you are expecting pretty well the same for next year.

MR. BAKER: Obviously, last year there was a misjudgment

in terms of the amount of activity and I guess the $70,000 last year came from

the expenditure of the year before. Hopefully, we will not spend $103,000 this

year. It is a very variable amount.

MR. WOODFORD: Treasury Board Secretariat 2.3.04. What

would the purchase services be for in 2.3.04 (06) on Page 19?

MR. BAKER: That would be photocopier and the printing

costs for all divisions of Treasury Board. Last year there was $41,000 budgeted.

The expenditure was $56,000 and this year we are putting in the same amount, so

photocopier and printing costs.

MR. WOODFORD: Mr. Chairman, 2.3.06 under collective

bargaining, 2.3.06 (05), still with professional services. That one was budgeted

at $85,000 and revised to $150,000. I did not think there was a lot of

collective bargaining last year. That is a fairly big significant jump and not

only that the same amount is allocated for this year. You are, I suppose,

expecting a lot of collective bargaining this year?

MR. BAKER: You are talking about the professional

services allocation?

MR. WOODFORD: The professional services part of it, yes.

MR. BAKER: That has to do with the government share of

the cost of negotiation which is only one item, okay, and conciliation another

item, but I think where a lot of that came from was the interest and rights

arbitration board hearings. There were a lot of arbitrations held last year

which kept us quite busy and we are simply assuming that we will get the same

type of arbitration requests so most of that was arbitration.

MR. WOODFORD: Under pay equity, under Treasury Board

Secretariat 2.3.12, Page 21 under Pay Equity Review Implementation, under

professional services 2.3.12 (05) that was budgeted at $346,000, revised at

$235,000 and it is now way up to $447,000. I did not think there was much

activity with regards to pay equity. What would that increase be for?

MR. BAKER: The hon. member is not correct when he says

there is not much activity in terms of pay equity. I would like to spend a

couple of minutes on that if I could.

Mr. Speaker, some years ago the former government made an

agreement with its unions and that agreement involved pay equity and indicated

that negotiations would continue until pay equity was reached in the public

service. Negotiations were started with one

section of the public service and we

tried to carry out pay equity negotiations with the hospital sector plus hydro.

These negotiations were "successfully" concluded, the agreements were reached

and pay equity was implemented in a small segment of the public service last

year. Okay? You remember the fuss about Bill 16 and retroactivity in terms of

pay equity, but pay equity was implemented during this past year in a small

segment of the public service.

Now, Mr. Chairman, the activity is simply a continuation of

that process. In that first group there were some smaller groups of workers, the

nurses one of them, where agreement could not be satisfactorily reached, not

because we couldn't reach agreement but because there were no satisfactory

comparisons. As the hon. member knows, all this is being done by a joint

union-management committee with equal representation. So all during last year

their work was continuing.

We have also started the process, during the past year, of

looking at the rest or other segments of the public service with a view to

bringing in pay equity. So that cost is going on. In terms of purchased services

in that area, quite a lot of the information that is required by the committee,

the committee actually contracts out to firms that do analyses of classification

groups and analyses of pay levels and all this kind of thing. So there is an

increased activity at this point in time in terms of pay equity, in terms of

trying to get to the next stage where we reach agreement on pay equity for the

rest of the public service.

I don't mind saying to the hon. member that some horrendous

problems have been arising with regard to pay equity, not only in Newfoundland

but in a lot of other provinces. Because what is happening is that as we move

towards pay equity and we look down the road we find that as we get into these

agreements, what they are doing is they are totally destroying the whole

classification system that we have and they are creating other problems. So

there are horrendous problems coming out of the implementation of pay equity

that have to be looked at.

So I say to the hon. gentleman, that over the next couple of

years the activity and expenditure under the pay equity heading, especially in

terms of getting outside expertise, is going to have to increase if we are going

to meet our deadlines.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Humber Valley.

MR. WOODFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

So then one would lead into the other, I guess, with regards

to the classification appeal board. Probably some of it came out of that.

MR. BAKER: Yes, that is right. Pay equity would stimulate

more of the appeals on the other side.

MR. WOODFORD: More of the appeals process?

MR. BAKER: Yes.

MR. WOODFORD: 2.5.01, Mr. Chairman, under Newfoundland

Information Services. That is page 23. 2.5.01: budgeted in 1991 - I was looking

back through the estimates of 1990 and there was a budget of some $335,000. In

1991/1992 it was $390,000 and in 1992/1993, $554,000, the total amount to be

voted for Newfoundland Information Services. There is almost a $200,000 increase

in the total. Even under Salaries, there is about a $90,000 increase from 1990

to this year's budget. Why would there be such an increase in salaries with

regards to Newfoundland Information Services? Are there some people added down

there?

MR. BAKER: You are talking about going back a number of

years, going back three years?

MR. WOODFORD: Yes. I based it on the year before, 1990,

at $335,000 and now this year it is almost $400,000 for salaries. There is about

seventy-odd thousand dollars in the different there, but the total - just stick

to the salaries. There is about $75,000 in the difference in salaries.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: If the hon. gentleman wants me to attempt an

answer to that one, in terms of these particular estimates the original budget

for last year was $390,000. We went over by $5,000 to $395,000 and we are

budgeting $395,000. I am absolutely certain that the question was asked last

year as to why there was a jump up to the $390,000, but I am not absolutely

certain of the answer now. It had to do with staff. It had to do with a couple

of extra positions, I believe, but I could check back. All I know is that right

now, from this year to next year, it is being kept the same. But there was a

jump and it involved some salaries. I remember.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Humber East.

MS. VERGE: Thank you, Chairperson. The Women's Policy

Office and the provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women fall within

the responsibility of Executive Council and this is the only forum for dealing

with the spending estimates in any detail.

I would like to say at the outset that the full House has not

been as satisfactory for getting into discussions about policy and specifics of

the various branches of the provincial government as have been the committees.

The committees operate informally and for the most part generate quite a bit of

information, and some interesting exchanges about philosophy and policy. The

problem with the committees, however, is that hardly any of the news reporters

cover them. At any rate I would like to take advantage of this opportunity to

make some comments, and then ask some questions about the Women's Policy Office

and the provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women.

Women in our Province are seriously disadvantaged in terms of

power, in terms of influence in decision making in governments, in businesses,

in families even. Women are also seriously disadvantaged because of their

poverty. Because of women's lack of power and lack of wealth, generally

speaking, women and the children depending on their mothers for care are

vulnerable. Women are not being employed to the best of their ability. We have

an unemployment crisis in the Province. The unemployment rate has been rising.

The employment rate has been dropping over the last year or so for the first

time ever, probably for the first time in the recorded history of Newfoundland

and Labrador.

Over the past three years the social assistance caseload has

almost doubled. When this government came to office three years ago I asked the

then Minister of Social Services about the number of people on welfare. He said

in March of 1989 there were about 19,000 cases, or families, on social

assistance. This spring the current minister told me that there are over 28,000

cases or families depending on welfare. That increase in dependence on welfare

is very disturbing.

A disproportionate number of the adults on welfare are women.

Quite a few of the families on welfare are mother-led, single parent families,

and we have to ask why this is. It comes back to our culture, to our values, to

our education system, to the ingrained discrimination - much of the

discrimination is unconscious but it is real nevertheless. There are however

some instances of deliberate discrimination having the effect of putting down

women or excluding women from certain jobs, certain opportunities.

The Provincial Advisory Council on the Status of Women was

created by the Peckford administration about twelve years ago. It was designed

as an arm's length organization which would work independent from the Cabinet

and the political arm of the government, to try to spur the government to take

more appropriate action to implement better policies to address the problems of

women and to recognize the ability and the talent of women.

The Advisory Council functioned very effectively for the

first nine years of its existence. The Advisory Council during those years was

high profile, visible, the Advisory Council president was outspoken in taking

the government to task, in working privately with the Premier and ministers as

well as civil servants, to see to it that policies were improved, programs

appropriate to the needs of women were put in place, and there were some

positive results during those years.

In the past couple of years, we have had a conservative

administration led by a conservative individual, Clyde Wells; we have had an

economic recession, it has been a time when we have needed the advisory council

more than ever. We have needed the advisory council to try to guard gains that

were made during the 80s as well as to press for reforms and new measures and

programs still needed. I find it disappointing that at this time of need, the

advisory council has taken a lower profile. We do not hear nearly as much from

the Provincial Advisory Council on the status of women now, as we did during the

80s.

I know the Advisory Council is doing good work. I know they

have intervened at various federal government and provincial government hearings

on a variety of matters. I know they have done some research, they are

participating in efforts to improve the response to wife battering and to the

general problem of violence against women, but they are not being as effective

as they were, as they can be and as they should be, as advocates for women in

this Province.

Having said that, I would like to ask the President of

Treasury Board, who seems to be here speaking for the government during this

examination of the Executive Council Estimates, that I know as a former minister

responsible for the Status of Women. What is the government's view of the

position of women in the Province? What strategy does the government have to

deal with the needs of women in this Province, the needs for adequate income,

adequate housing, proper child care, the needs for education, for training and

for employment? At the same time I would like to ask the minister

what unused potential he sees on the part of women in this

Province? Women are virtually unrepresented in several walks of life, in several

occupations.

I look at the Minister of Education when I talk about the

underutilization of women in the Province's education system. Historically women

have been prominent in the teaching profession. Until the last few years there

were more women than men in the teaching profession in this Province and

elsewhere in North America. I understand now it is about 50/50, but there has

been job segregation by sex. Almost all the women teachers are found in the

classrooms of the primary and elementary grades. Almost all the men teachers are

in the higher level grades, and men virtually monopolize administrative

positions.

In this Province we have never, ever, had a woman school

board superintendent. There are quite a high number of school board assistant

superintendents. They proliferated over the last ten years or so. The Minister

of Education might be able to cite the exact number. We probably have

seventy-five or eighty assistant superintendents now, and yet only a handful of

those assistant superintendents are women.

I think the percentage of women in the House of Assembly is

just as good, if not better, than the percentage of women assistant

superintendents with the Province's school boards.

Now the government is about to consolidate school boards. We

have seen consolidation over the past few years, as enrolment has declined, but

the government, which now has The Report of The Royal Commission on Education

calling for nine regional, public, nondenominational school boards, -

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. member's time is up.

MS. VERGE: Do I have leave?

AN HON. MEMBER: By leave.

MS. VERGE: The government, regardless of whether it has

the courage to implement precisely the recommendations of The Royal Commission,

consistent with its zeal to centralize and consolidate and merge, will almost

surely merge school boards, either doing it in a nondiscriminatory way, as

called for in The Royal Commission Report, or through some halfhearted, gutless

compromise, trying to cater to all the various interests.

At any rate, it seems to me it is inevitable that we are

going to have fewer school boards in the Province, and probably there will be a

severe reduction. We now have twenty-seven or twenty-eight. The Royal Commission

Report calls for nine.

This administrative reform, however complete the reform is,

will provide the government with an opportunity to appoint women to senior

school board administrative positions. It is a golden opportunity. It is a once

in a generation opportunity.

In the case of post-secondary education, back five, seven,

years ago, the previous administration reorganized vocational schools, colleges,

by creating a number of regional community colleges and provincial institutes.

The government at that time appointed two women presidents, two women CEO's.

Sheila McKinnon-Drover was appointed President of The Central Newfoundland

Community College, and Linda Inkpen was appointed President of The College of

Trades and Technology, or Cabot Institute as it was later named.

Now by a whole variety of accounts those two women

administrators have done a superb job. They have greatly improved the quality of

program offerings within their institutions and the various campuses for which

they are responsible. They have raised standards. They have earned the praise of

their faculty and staff, as well as students and others in the communities they

are serving. They are two women who show that, when given a chance, women can do

an excellent job. Now by being in senior administrative positions in education,

those women are also serving as role models to their students as well as the

general public.

I would like to ask the Minister whether in making future

appointments at the post-secondary level he will step up the effort to recognize

the ability and talents of women. We only have two women CEO's in the

non-university post-secondary sector now. Is the minister committed to improving

that number? At the children's education level, at the primary, elementary, high

school level with the pending consolidation, what strategy does the government

have to see to it that women are appointed to senior administrative positions?

Is the government satisfied to continue having the school board superintendency

monopolized by men? Is the government satisfied with having such a

disproportionate number of men in school administrative positions generally, and

in high school classroom teaching positions? Or is the government going to take

action to see to it that we have something approaching a balance or even a

balance of women and men throughout our education system providing first rate

administration as well as instruction, and at the same time serving as good role

models for male and female children and adult learners?

I have gone over my ten limits, and I think this is a good

time to pause because I would really like to hear the government's response to

my call for affirmative action in the appointment, hiring and promotion or

secondment of women in education administrative positions at both the primary,

elementary, high school level as well as the post-secondary levels.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: I am going to comment only briefly on that

question and ask the Minister of Education to elaborate on it. But yesterday or

the day before yesterday when I was in the House to answer questions relating to

my own office expense, the Leader of the Opposition indicated they were going to

ask questions on something else so I left. After I left they asked questions on

my own office expenses, and I know the President of Treasury Board undertook to

table them. I have since had my office get the information, and I am anxious,

Mr. Chairman, to table for the committee the detail of those expenses. Maybe the

Opposition would like a copy of them now.

They show the total expenses of the Premier's offices in the

years 1991-92, and in the years 1988-89. People will know, of course, that the

year 1988-89 was the last year that former Premier Peckford was in office full

time. I just want to draw specific attention, particularly when I hear the

totally unfounded and unwarranted allegations of the Member for Burin -

Placentia West. There are some people who will just say anything without regard

to whether there is any element of truth in it or not to serve their own

purposes. You will see there the comparative cost.

The total gasoline bill for my use of my car in that year was

$437.15. The former Premier's gasoline bill was $4,816.63. The vehicle repairs

-- Oh, incidentally, Mr. Chairman, this idea that I have two chauffeured cars is

utter tripe. It is absolute fraud to suggest it. I use my own car, but

occasionally when I have to go somewhere where I am not able to park, or I have

to go somewhere to an official function where it is necessary for me to be

driven there I do, or if I have to go somewhere where I may have a drink. It may

be a social occasion and I may have a drink. I refuse to drive my car when I am

having a drink. So that is the only time that car is ever used by me.

The car is one of two that was in the government pool when we

took over. The same driver who was there then is the same driver who is there

now doing primarily the same work. Now the former Premier had his own

driver-bodyguard and had three vehicles assigned exclusively to him. Had the use

of three vehicles. At the moment, Mr. Speaker, I get the same as a minister.

Only I do not take the full amount. I have only ever taken one-half of it. For

two reasons.

One reason is in part that I am sometimes driven around by

this other car, and the other

part is my own personal car was used fairly

extensively for political party purposes. As Leader of the Party, when I drive

to functions in driving range, it is used for that purpose. So all I have ever

taken, despite the $8,000 that is allowed, that I could take if I want to - I

have not broadcast it. I have not said anything about it. I have not put myself

up as a martyr or anything. But when I hear the silly tripe coming out of the

Member for Burin - Placentia West it is more than I can do to sit and take that

kind of nonsense.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: Eight thousand dollars a year isn't silly

(Inaudible).

PREMIER WELLS: It isn't. It is $4,000 a year. The member

should listen.

MR. TOBIN: Four thousand dollars a year (Inaudible).

PREMIER WELLS: It is a good deal more than that, and it

is used for a great deal more than that. Now, Mr. Speaker, the member should

look at the comparisons and then he will hang his head in shame that he sat as a

member of Cabinet and provided those kinds of expenditures.

I was going on. Vehicle repairs, last year, nil. In the last

year of the former administration, $5,615.

MR. TOBIN: What about accidents (Inaudible)?

PREMIER WELLS: I do not know who has any accidents in

government cars. I don't. I never had an accident in a government car. Official

entertainment, $1,317.80, last year. The last year, $10,971.

MR. MATTHEWS: Not all shown, though!

PREMIER WELLS: Well, that is official entertainment while

travelling. It is all shown, every last cent is shown.

AN HON. MEMBER: Not on yours it's not.

PREMIER WELLS: Every last cent is shown.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible)!

PREMIER WELLS: I know you are hanging your heads in

shame, and so you should. Official entertainment, V.I.P. dinners, et cetera. I

use my house for that purpose. Total cost, $16,584.24. Total cost in the former

administration - now this is four years ago, don't forget, after four years of

inflation, don't forget, okay? - $45,314.70.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

PREMIER WELLS: Not one cent charged off to other

departments, not one! That is covered too.

MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) executive dining room!

PREMIER WELLS: I don't think I've used the executive

dining room three times in the last year. Not three times in the last year.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

PREMIER WELLS: I know the member makes lots of

assumptions. You will note that there is -

AN HON. MEMBER: How many times have you been down to The

Cellar?

PREMIER WELLS: I was down to The Cellar once in my life,

last week, and that was a Liberal Party function for which I contributed $20 out

of my pocket. And it was not a bad party.

You will see official entertainment as three categories:

official entertainment while travelling - I spent $1,317, the former government

spent $10,900; official entertainment for dinners, et cetera - I spent $16,500,

the former government spent $45,000; official entertainment, cigars and

cigarettes - I spent nil, the former government spent $7,457.

Salary for the dining room chef. I spent none. It is included

in the services, the cost of the dinners at home, they come in and serve it. The

cost of the chef is included. I spent none. The former government in addition

spent another $28,878. It is quite apart from the space and the separate dining

room and all that.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I provide the use of my own personal home.

I provide for my own personal home to do government entertainment on a regular

basis. Sometimes two or three times a week, sometimes some weeks go by and there

is none. For that I am provided with a housing allowance of $20,000. Which is

also taxable.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) $16,000 (Inaudible).

PREMIER WELLS: Just listen now. The former premier got

his whole house, everything, provided. Everything! Dishes, furniture, the whole

works, all provided. The rent alone cost $15,241.35 for his housing. The

electrical services on top cost $2,244.35

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

PREMIER WELLS: I answer all questions. Just let me finish

and I will answer any other questions you have after. At my home there is a

security system. I paid the capital cost of that and government pays the annual

monitoring cost that the company charges for security. The total cost for snow

clearing and security at my home is $1,342.66 which was included in the amount I

have already given in respect to the former Premier. Because I do not have the

time, as I devote virtually all my time to government, Pippy Park does up the

grounds at my home, or does most of the work, I do some of it, and that cost

$4921.38 charging out Pippy Park's rates. Now, that is a net after I pay 20 per

cent of it myself. I reimburse the government for 20 per cent of it. I felt I

should do it because that is what I would have spent personally if I had devoted

my own time and had to buy fertilizers et cetera.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)

PREMIER WELLS: I know, but you do not work eighteen hours

a day for the public and I do. That is the difference. I do not have time to do

my own and I have to have it in a presentable condition so that I can invite the

Ambassador for Japan to come and have dinner, so that I can entertain people who

are buying the products of the producers of this Province and work for the

people of this Province. Advertising and promotion: I have to get to the bottom

of that. I do not know what that advertising and promotion is. Anyway they spent

$53,000 on advertising and promotion, whatever that was. I have to get to that,

and I will table for the committee the detail of that because I really do not

know what that is. It may be unfair to have it included in these expenses and if

it is it should be taken out.

AN HON. MEMBER: What did you spend?

PREMIER WELLS: I did not spend any. Flowers: Now every

Premier has to spend money on flowers, to make flowers available for people in

the case of deaths and so on, you have to send wreaths to mayors and certain

dignitaries. We spent $1118 and the former Premier spent $21,526 in the last

year. On Premier's travel I spent $44,294.16 and four years earlier, despite the

terrific inflation, the former Premier spent nearly as much, $43,589, four years

ago despite the inflation in between.

MR. TOBIN: Does that include the charter of planes?

PREMIER WELLS: I am glad you asked because that is the

next item on the agenda. I will give you the expense on that.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WELLS: Aircraft charter fixed-wing. I spent zero.

MR. TOBIN: Hydro plane.

PREMIER WELLS: I assume the cost of hydro is included in

that, whatever it is. Two or three times when it was necessary to travel I used

the hydro plane. I do not hide that.

AN HON. MEMBER: What was it costing?

PREMIER WELLS: I will get the cost, and if it is not

already included I will get it and table it. The former Premier spent - listen

now, $68,863 on fixed-wing aircraft travel in one year, his last year in office.

Mr. Speaker, that is $6000 a month. Aircraft charters - helicopter, I spent zero

and the former Premier spent $2011.16. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is instructive to

look at the totals. Here are the totals. All of those expenses for me cost the

government $94,015.48. The expenses of the former Premier cost the government in

his last year in office 1988-89, $309,631.20. I am glad they asked the questions

and gave me the opportunity to disclose the full details and I thank hon.

members for it.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

AN HON. MEMBER: Add inflation now, for a real comparison,

about seventy grand for inflation.

PREMIER WELLS: If you had to add inflation, Mr. Chairman,

if you had -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

PREMIER WELLS: Oh, I apologise.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the hon. gentleman have leave?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. CHAIRMAN: By leave.

PREMIER WELLS: I thank hon. members and I won't abuse it.

If you had to add inflation it would probably add another - something between

$30,000 and $40,000, $50,000 I suppose, so you know, I do not feel too badly; I

feel that I am treating the people of this Province pretty fairly on a personal

basis. I am making a sincere personal contribution and I do not mind doing it.

Mr. Chairman, I am going to ask the Minister of Education to

answer the balance of the question.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: The Premier said he was going to answer before

he sat down and he did not answer, that was if that $16,000 he spent for

entertainment was in addition to the $20,000 you were getting for your home?

PREMIER WELLS: Oh yes, it is all spelled out in detail.

It is there separately you see. Housing allowance is shown, I am showing it

$20,000, the former Premier is showing it $15,241. Now, the cost of his

furniture, the cost of his dishes, the cost of all of the other - silverware all

those other things, I did not take any of that into account. I do not know about

food, I do not know about it.

AN HON. MEMBER: Paper towels.

PREMIER WELLS: That was paid for too, was it? I do not

know, I did not check into that kind of detail. The thing that I do not know and

I ask hon. members to respect my caution - I do not know about that $53,000 for

advertising and promotion. I do not see why it should be in the Premier's

Office. I do not know what it is, so it may be that it is unfairly there and I

ask hon. members to give me a little bit of tolerance and I will let you know if

it is unfairly there and ask that it be taken out.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Burin - Placentia

West.

MR. TOBIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I think the Premier has just confirmed that he is probably

the most expensive Premier in the history of the Province. He came in, Mr.

Chairman, with this big list - but he is not sure if the chartered helicopters

around the world or around Canada are included; he is not sure-

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. TOBIN: There are no helicopters, okay. A fixed-wing

chartered plane to fly to the mainland and he is not sure if that is there. I

would suspect it is quite expensive to hire planes to fly around this country.

Mr. Chairman, $53,000 for advertisements; well I do not know what it is, the

Premier does not know what it is, and I am wondering if it is pictures of the

Premier he sent around Canada -

MR. MATTHEWS: It is not his, Glenn, it is the other

fellow's.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. TOBIN: I am wondering if it is pictures that the

Premier had to send around Canada, the former Premier had to send around Canada.

AN HON. MEMBER: The former?

MR. TOBIN: That is what I am saying, if he had to send

them around Canada, Mr. Chairman, because probably no one knew him up there. He

concentrated more on Newfoundland because when he was the Premier of

Newfoundland and Labrador, the mine in Daniel's Harbour was working, the mine in

Baie Verte was working, the mine in Hope Brook was open, the mine in St.

Lawrence was working. He concentrated his time here, so probably he spent the

money to send his pictures to the mainland. Since this Premier, we have had no

mines opened in the Province and now, Mr. Chairman, everybody on the mainland

knows who the Premier is, so that is what happened. The former Premier had to

let everybody know who he was on the mainland, but there was $53,000 worth of

income tax being paid in this Province by the miners and the loggers who were

working -

AN HON. MEMBER: And their mines were open.

MR. TOBIN: Yes and the mines were opened - the Premier is

leaving, too bad.

MR. MATTHEWS: You got him, you got him. You drove him out

of the House.

MR. TOBIN: Now, Mr. Chairman, that is what happened. When

the former Premier was here in this Province and when they entertained in this

Province, there were people coming in - Now, Mr. Chairman, there they go, look -

and I can tell you something else

AN HON. MEMBER: Where's he going? There he goes again.

MR. TOBIN: We need answers from the Minister of Education

on the Late Show.

MR. MATTHEWS: No, now. Lynn just -

MS. VERGE: Could you yield for the Minister of Education?

MR. MATTHEWS: Yes, yield for him to answer Lynn's

question.

MR. TOBIN: Okay, if the Minister of Education -- Mr.

Chairman, if I could have the attention of the Minister of Education for a

minute. I would certainly be prepared to sit down if you want to give the

answers.

I got out of that one.

MR. MATTHEWS: That wasn't too bad, Tobin. That was a good

recovery.

AN HON. MEMBER: He should be with the Economic Recovery

Commission.

DR. WARREN: I thank the hon. member for giving me a few

minutes. I was about to leave to go to a press conference at the hotel where the

National Access Awareness Week is presenting some awards, so I have a few

minutes.

The Member for Humber East raised a few important questions

about gender equity, and she asked for the governments position, particularly

the Department of Education's position on gender equity.

She has heard me say on a number of occasions that in

education we made some progress recently in promoting gender equity, but it has

been very, very slow. We know that the educational system, all superintendents,

95 per cent of the assistant superintendents, and perhaps a large number of

consultants, more than half would be male. In the principalships, I don't have

the figures. I could have gotten them had I known this question was being

raised. A very large proportion of the principals of high schools in particular

and other schools: male.

It is difficult to change that, Mr. Chairman, because school

boards make decisions on hiring. What the department has done is build on what

the hon. member did when she was the Minister of Education. She promoted gender

equity through a policy initiative, and the Department of Education is building

on that initiative at the present time.

I don't know what is going to happen with the new board

structure if and when such new boards are established. But I can assure her that

I am concerned about the proportions that exist, and that we must provide

opportunities to provide role models in education for females as well as males.

We have had some success in the last year or two in convincing school boards to

develop policies that promote gender equity and affirmative action.

One school board I would like to note. One school board in

particular has done outstanding work in this area, I would suggest, and that is

the Avalon North Integrated Consolidated School Board. They have developed a

very comprehensive set of policies, and they have people at the senior level in

the board who are taking action in order to ensure that we have greater gender

equity in administrative positions.

I don't think, as the minister, I can say that we are going

to superimpose a policy on school boards. They tried it in Ontario, it didn't

work. They tried to set certain goals in Ontario, and it didn't work for a

variety of reasons. I think what complicates the matter here, as the hon. member

knows, is that we have a declining number of schools, declining enrolment, we

have a relatively young class of administrators and changes are very slow.

I do want to assure her of one or two other things though,

that we in our appointments to boards have made efforts to consult widely with

women's groups, the Advisory Council in particular, and to ensure that as far as

possible at least half of the appointments were female. Now I really don't

accept that you should always go 50/50. I believe that you must make decisions

based on competence as well as gender. We found that you have to look hard. What

I found as minister is that you really have to go and seek out nominations. When

you do that you get competent persons to serve. It is a matter of getting the

name submitted.

I went through a process early as a minister where I asked

members of the House for names. I think 90 per cent of the names I got for

nominations from members of the House I think on both side were male - 90 per

cent. So I went back from then on, and when I ask a member of the House for a

nomination for a board I ask them for two names, a male and a female, and that

gives us some latitude. Of course I have consulted the Advisory Council, and I

think perhaps women's groups in the Province acknowledge that what the

department has done in the last two or three years has built on what she did

when she was the Minister of Education. I paid tribute to her on several

occasions for that.

One final point before I leave to go to that news conference,

Mr. Chairman: I would like to say that in the schools -

MS. VERGE: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

The hon. the Member for Humber East, on a point of order.

MS. VERGE: Thank you. Actually, I just want to remind the

minister that I called on him to address the question of Cabinet appointments of

the community college and institute presidents. Having observed that following

the last reorganization five or seven years ago, the Cabinet, being progressive,

appointed two women who have provided exemplary leadership.

I would like the minister to - of the senior administrative

positions in education, under the current arrangement, under the current law,

the minister has the direct power, along with his Cabinet colleagues, to choose

and appoint the presidents of the community colleges and institutes. As it

stands now, the power to appoint school board superintendents rests with school

boards, although with a reform it would be possible for the government to ensure

that some women were brought into the ranks of the school board administrative

positions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: To that point of order. There is really no

point of order. The hon. member used the occasion to ask a question.

The hon. the Minister of Education.

DR. WARREN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On the school board

membership, I am delighted to say that an increasing number of females are

running for membership on school boards. I don't know how many are chairpersons

now, but I have noticed, in the past year or so, a change in that. So I think

progress is very slow but some changes are occurring in that area. In fact,

yesterday, I met with five school boards. Two of the chairpersons of the five

were female.

When it comes to appointments of senior administrators in the

post-secondary system, we have only appointed one president in the last three

years, and I don't believe there was one, of the twenty-one applications,

female. There may have been a small number. I know, of the eleven people

interviewed for that position, not one was a female. The three people

recommended to Cabinet were three males and we appointed, as you know, Mr. Fred

Green as the president of that college.

One final point: On the question of women, I think it is

important to promote not just people into positions. I think it is important to

promote opportunities for women in science and technology. I am delighted to say

that the evidence we have is that females who do math, science, physics,

chemistry, and biology in the high schools do as well as, if not better than,

males, in these courses.

But something happens when students proceed to the

university. Many females don't continue their education in science and

technology. I think governments have a major role to play in that, because we do

need role models in engineering, in geology, in all of these fields. We need

role models for the girls who are in our schools. The good news is, as I said,

at the high school level, females are taking all kinds of science and technology

courses and doing well. At the post-secondary level, something is happening.

Perhaps improved career counselling is necessary, perhaps, with more role models

- and we have more out there now - who visit and talk to students, more young

females may wish to pursue studies in these areas.

It is 4:00 p.m., as the member tells me. I wish I could

pursue that further, Mr. Chairman, but I think I will terminate my comments.

Thank you very much. I thank the member for giving me the opportunity to make

these general comments. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: Now, Mr. Chairman, we will revisit this

question that we have been talking about for some time. It took the Minister of

Development almost three weeks, I think, to respond with the information. That

is the first issue.

The information that he has tabled today really tells us no

more than the information he gave us during the Estimate Committee hearings.

Very little additional detail is there. I would like the minister to answer the

question, why it took three weeks to come up with this. If this could not have

been produced in twenty-four hours by the staff at Enterprise Newfoundland and

Labrador, he should have a look at the staff of Enterprise Newfoundland and

Labrador, let me tell you that, Mr. Chairman.

There is very, very, little information here that was not

available during the Estimates Committees, that the minister tabled, the list of

the projects. There is very little explanation here that one didn't already

know.

The question is, what was, indeed, taking so long? I suspect

it wasn't the gathering of information at all, it was an attempt to try to find

some explanation for some of these things, because there is no explanation

offered here.

Let me say that many of the items that are here are

satisfactory, because, in the information tabled in the Estimates Committees, we

simply had a list of names of companies. If it didn't say it was A, B, C company

which does such and such a thing, if the service or product wasn't obvious from

the name, then, of course, we couldn't tell what it was. There are a number

here, with which we don't have a problem, having looked at this information now,

telling us what business these companies are involved in.

Generally speaking, nothing has changed for me after all I

have said in this House on this particular issue in the past couple of weeks.

Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador must be held accountable for funds that

have been distributed under these programs.

I could go through them at length. The minister has asked me

not to deal with the companies, and I can appreciate the desire to protect

individual companies. Maybe the minister should have been as concerned about

other companies who have been adversely affected by this funding as he is

concerned about these companies.

When I look at, for example, a paving contractor who received

funding to replace the furnace and the boiler on an asphalt plant, every paving

contractor in Newfoundland has to replace boilers on asphalt plants. There is

nothing unique or different about it. There is no service that nobody else can

provide. It is not high tech. It is not resource-based. It is not tourism. It is

not import substitution. It is no more than helping one paving contractor

unfairly compete against another paving contractor. Every paving contractor in

this Province, if he is worth his salt at all, should be in the minister's

office tomorrow morning saying, 'I want money to upgrade my asphalt plant.' That

is the bottom line here. It is no more than assisting one paving contractor

unfairly to compete against other paving contractors.

I can go on down through the list. The minister talked about

his chicken and rib franchises. There are a dozen restaurants here, and there

are a couple of them, I say to the minister, I can live with. There is always a

grey area. There are a couple of remote communities in Labrador, and on the

Northern Peninsula, where there is probably no food service available, and it

probably wouldn't be economical on its own. There are a couple here where the

explanation says there is no other service available there, so we decided to

assist them with that. Well, the minister could be forgiven for that. Some of

those, I will live with, but not his chicken and rib franchise in Gander or the

chicken and rib franchise in Corner Brook. There is no excuse for that,

absolutely none. There is no justification.

Assisting a computer company is St. John's - now there is a

remote location - a computer company in St. John's that had problems because of

overruns of a $1.6 million capital expansion. Bad business management, that's

all that is, and the minister decides he is going to bail him out. So he

replenished the working capital and improved the debt equity position of the

company. There are a hundred computer companies in St. John's that would love to

get some working capital from the minister, and would love to improve their debt

equity position. Why is one particular computer company singled out?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

I wonder if the hon. member would pause while we announce the

questions for the Late Show?

MR. WINDSOR: Sure.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Question number one: I am not not satisfied

with the answer to my question to the Premier regarding the Long Harbour

incinerator project. That is from the hon. the Member for St. John's East.

Question number two: I am not satisfied with the answer by

the Minister of Education regarding teacher assistants in the Province. That is

from the hon. the Member for Burin- Placentia West.

Question number three: I am not satisfied with the answer

provided by the Minister of Education to my question of cutbacks in teacher

assistants in Labrador West. That is from the hon. the Member for Menihek.

The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Freight forwarding

company in Mount Pearl: The minister would like to wave at that. I am not sure.

I am prepared to look at that one. Because it is establishing something in

Halifax. The money was used to establish a freight forwarding in Halifax. It is

the second item in the book, I say to the minister. The excuse given here is

that it eliminates the need to have mainland freight forwarding firms to ship

goods for the client. I will reserve judgement on that one until I research it a

bit more. I don't know if there is any benefit from that. But, you know, there

are a lot of freight forwarding firms in the Province that would all love to

receive some assistance.

Ladies' wear fashion store in Whitbourne, and a children's

store in Bay Roberts: if the Member for Port de Grave wants to talk about it.

MR. EFFORD: What's wrong with that?

MR. WINDSOR: What's wrong with that? Nothing, except

there is a mall in Bay Roberts which must have a couple of places to buy it.

There is a mall in Carbonear. There are dozens of places on the shore for

children to buy clothes. Why is government putting money into children's

clothing stores?

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible) my district.

MR. WINDSOR: Because it is in the member's district. I

wonder if the member had any impact on that like he did jobs in Social Services?

Good question.

MR. R. AYLWARD: Is it true you own that store?

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. R. AYLWARD: Is it true you own that store?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. WINDSOR: Children's clothing stores in Bay Roberts. I

ask the Member for Carbonear, is his wife running into Bay Roberts now to buy

clothes for his children? I doubt it, Mr. Chairman. There are lots of places in

Carbonear for him to buy it.

Generator Exchange: In March of 1991, $74,000 went into

Generator Exchange - now bankrupt. I ask the minister: Did we lose $74,000 in

Generator Exchange?

AN HON. MEMBER: Probably.

MR. WINDSOR: We probably did. We are so destitute now

that Generator Exchange is gone. There is no service now that Generator Exchange

was providing, is there? We can't get our generators repaired anywhere. We can't

buy the goods, and Generator Exchange did repair generators. You might bend it a

little and say it is manufacturing, or re-manufacturing, but 98 per cent of

their business was retail.

That has now been taken over by other automotive supply

dealers. Why did we put $75,000 into Generator Exchange? I know the principals,

they were friends of mine. I am sorry to see them go under. They were good

people. I don't have a problem with that. But if those people had come to me, I

would have said: I am sorry, there are three more automotive supply stores down

the road. If I give you $75,000, I have to give it to every one of them. I would

have said no to my friends. And I don't defend it.

The minister talked about the restaurant in Brigus - his

predecessor. I understand it is a nice facility, but it is tourist-related. I

say it is on the questionable, it is in a gray area. Chicken and rib franchises

are out of the question. Those are out of the question. Those are fast-food

take-outs. A Victorian-style restaurant in Brigus, the minister says, is a

lovely facility. I have not seen it. There is no accommodation associated with

it, as I understand. I would say that even that, as desirable as it is, it is

borderline. It is borderline, but at least it is a tourist development in an

area that has tremendous tourist potential, so I will concede that it is in a

grey area. It certainly is not black and white.

A photo shop on Bell Island - the notes here say there was no

service available on Bell Island, so they are not competing with somebody else.

I can forgive the minister perhaps for that one. It is the first one, the Member

for Mount Scio indicates. I will accept that. If that is true then I can have

some sympathy for that. It is a service that was not available on Bell Island.

It created a job or two in an area where there is very low economic activity. I

can live with that.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: By leave? I am sure hon. members will give

me leave.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the hon. member have leave? By leave.

MR. WINDSOR: Restoration of older structures constructed

of brick and masonry; capital assistance to enable a company to carry out

existing contracts and purchase new commercial equipment to improve productivity

and higher quality of service. It is basically a masonry contractor in St.

John's. How many masonry contractors are there in St. John's? There must be

hundreds, walking the streets, but this contractor picks up $21,000 to help him

be more competitive.

Here is the one, Bay Roberts Kids Closet Limited. A garage in

St. Catherine's, St. Mary's Bay, to reconstruct a premises destroyed by fire, it

says, in an area which has limited commercial activity. It is about 500 feet

away from an operating service station and garage - not 500 feet away; but this

government chooses to fund one which burned down. No doubt it is a hardship

case. That is why the rest of us buy fire insurance, to protect ourselves

against that sort of thing. How do you justify funding a garage?

A daycare operation - borderline - a very worthwhile project,

but there are lots of daycare operations. I do not know if any of them have been

funded, but I can live with that. A lumber company in the Goulds, the

information I have on that is that it is a sawmill operation. I do not have any

problem with that. A games arcade and takeout in Heart's Content, Newfoundland,

will offer a range of services which are presently provided in the area. I

assume that meant to say, a range of services which are presently not provided

in the area. They cannot even get their explanations straight.

A taxi co-operative society in St. John's, to buy out

existing taxi services. Tell me you are not competing with fifty other taxi

operations. There is nothing here to change this. Floral and craft boutique on

Bell Island, I can live with that. A beauty salon in St. Catherine's - establish

a beauty salon and a Sears catalogue outlet.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Oh yes, there are two here. An overrun of

expenses incurred through the expansion of the salon; one for $9,000 and one for

$41,000; $50,000 for a beauty salon and a Sears catalogue outlet. The economy is

going to hum; a major distributor in Cavendish; fleet restructuring of a

management line providing supplemental funding to match a cash injection by new

operators.

Here is the one in Bishop's Falls, a burner for the furnace

of an asphalt plant, to ensure the long-range stability and viability of the

operation. I guess it will. A chicken and rib franchise on Airport Boulevard in

Gander, right in the heart of the fast- food takeouts.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: It gives the company names, but I will not

use the names although they are here.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Well there is a name there. There is a name,

but I will not use the individual's name.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Well it is public information. The media

will have access to it. This is not given in confidence.

A photography business in Grand Falls - this is interesting.

A photographic and computerized graphic service in market advertising. I do not

know if it is competing with anybody else. I doubt it.

Addition of a lounge to a motel in Fogo. Well. I was always

under the impression that lounges were absolutely taboo. We do not fund lounges

at all. Even when we are building hotels and motels. The cost of a lounge is

always subtracted from eligible costs of hotels and motels. But here we give

them funds to add it on. No doubt it will make the motel more viable. On Fogo

Island. No doubt he needed that and the service needs to be kept there.

I can forgive the minister for that, even though it is

borderline. But because of the location and the economy of Fogo. The fact that

it is, to my knowledge, the only motel out there. I assume it is the same one. I

always thought there was a lounge.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: There were two out there.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Yes. Another one on Fogo. To purchase a

building to house an existing floral business on Fogo Island. This is all retail

stuff. Set up an accounting business in Bay d'Espoir. To purchase office

equipment for an accountant to set up an accounting business. Thirty-eight

hundred dollars. That is all an accountant would need, a desk and a computer and

he is in business. A fax machine and a photocopying machine.

Another one in Buchans Junction. A games arcade and small

convenience store. I realise there is not much in Buchans Junction, but if there

is any business at all, surely to God it could be done without government

funding. To get into games arcades and a convenience store. A video store in

Clarke's Head, Gander Bay. Not even a new service. Because the only facility

with videos is to mainline a business. So we gave them $5,000 to upgrade it. A

video business.

somebody told me about that. The hon. Member for Fortune - Hermitage I think

purchase equipment, and manufacturing, duplicating and packaging of quality

musical cassettes tapes, from hi-tech facilities not available in (Inaudible).

The hon. member I think told me last week at a function we attended together

somewhere or other that he had visited that recently, did he not?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: He was really impressed by it and it is a

good operation. That's right. I am impressed that he can do that down there.

Only one problem, Mr. Chairman. We had the same operation close down in Mount

Pearl not long ago because of lack of support from government. Do you know what

he requested government to do? He was manufacturing cassette tapes. He was

bringing in high quality components, assembling the cassette tapes, things of

that nature. Do you know what he requested Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador

to do? To arrange that all of the tapes needed by government for our friends up

here in the recording of Hansard and everything else, that we simply buy his

tapes at his cost, which was less than the amount tendered.

No. Could not do it. Has to go to public tender. But we can

go down there and put $50,000 into somebody else to start a similar operation,

which goes to show it can be done. With a little ingenuity, a little initiative,

and a little help from Enterprise Newfoundland and Labrador. Well placed, I have

no problem with it.

But why they would not help the operation in Mount Pearl....

Why, because it was in Mount Pearl? Because many operations are not eligible in

St. John's and Mount Pearl? Do hon. members of this House know, particularly

those from rural Newfoundland, who have not come up against it, that many

funding programs are not eligible in St. John's? You can go out to Manuels and

do it, you can go to Bay Bulls and do it. But if you want to do it, I say to my

friend for Pleasantville, in St. John's you cannot be funded under that program.

If you are building a motel in St. John's you cannot get funding for it. But if

you go out on the Foxtrap access road you can.

Why? Because there is everything in St. John's anyway. St.

John's does not need any help to develop their tourism industry.

MR. NOEL: You do not understand rural Newfoundland

(inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: We put $6 million into the Radisson and that

helped tremendously. It helped tremendously, a good project. It would not be

there without the Province and a lot of other businesses have benefitted because

of it, including Hotel Newfoundland, that was very concerned initially, but now

because of the dual capacity there, we are finding that we can do a lot better;

both can do well. They are both suffering from the downturn of the economy and

tourism industry generally right now. It is a good investment.

it is is doing it down there, but I feel badly for my friend in Mount Pearl who

moved out of the Province to find employment, after he went bankrupt here and

lost his home and could not sell government a bunch of blank tapes at less than

what they were buying on tendered price. Now there is justice, Mr. Chairman,

there is justice.

Photo finishing and custom framing service in Grand Falls -

Windsor. Not available in Central Newfoundland. Charlie Falk in Gander, is going

to be interested to hear that; one of the most professional photographers in

Canada providing an extremely high quality, photographic service, framing

operation; one of the best. I have several of his works at home. I gave my wife

one for Christmas last year in fact, a picture of her home in Exploits, my

friend for Lewisporte will know it, the one with her late father who was

standing on the back step and Charlie happened to get a picture.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Do I what?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) Santa Claus.

MR. NOEL: Did he send you a Christmas Card?

AN HON. MEMBER: What is your point about Charlie Falk?

MR. WINDSOR: Well, Mr. Chairman, is this the sort of

thing we should be funding? A photo finishing business in Grand Falls, a video

audio store in Lewisporte, nothing more than a music shop, a retail shop in

Lewisporte. My friend hasn't got shares in that I hope?

AN HON. MEMBER: In competition with me.

MR. WINDSOR: In competition with my friend. Shame doubly,

Mr. Chairman. Well your competition got $15,000 from Enterprise Newfoundland -

MR. NOEL: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: - and not only that, the Minister of

Development and Tourism insults my friend from Lewisporte. It says here: there

is no significant operation west of Gander, east of Grand Falls. My friend's

business, the Member for Lewisporte, is right across the street from him. I do

not know how come the hon. member does not resign. How can he stand it, it is

bad enough having me throwing barbs at him all the time but his own colleagues

now are taking pot shots at his business. He is in here serving the people,

letting his business run down and his colleagues are funding people to put him

out of business. There is no justice, Mr. Chairman.

Eastern Region. Here is a dandy one, here is a beaut. I won't

use the name but it is a transport company; essentially it is a gentleman who

owns - I do not know, maybe more than one, but I suspect one truck, to enable

the gentleman to carry out needed repairs to the engine of his transport truck

and to consolidate his debts. To repair the engine of his truck, Mr. Chairman.

Do you know how many transport trucks are out there which need repairs to their

engines? Do you know how many trucks are being sold because operators cannot

afford to repair their engines? Do you know how many are lying there on the

market not being sold because there is no market for them?... but the government

funds one operator to get his engine repaired. There is going to be a lineup

four miles long at the minister's door tomorrow morning. Mr. Chairman, this is

absolutely disgraceful.

Lounge in Clarenville, renovations to a lounge and rental

property, used to retire debt. Every lounge owner in the Province - where is my

friend - from St. Mary's - The Capes, he would love to retire the debt on his

lounge, he would love to retire the debt on his lounge - and working capital for

the lounge, Mr. Chairman. They expanded the lounge, apparently. The bank's

contribution was insufficient to complete the work that was started, so the

minister bailed him out - a lounge, $60,000! Now, I say to the President of

Treasury Board, look me square in the eye and tell me that is a justified use of

taxpayers' money.

MR. BAKER: I don't know.

MR. WINDSOR: You don't know. What is the government

policy then, Mr. Chairman? I can go on through all the rest of them. They are

all the same.

MR. BAKER: (Inaudible) a good one.

MR. WINDSOR: I told you there are a few good ones here. I

said that two weeks ago. I didn't say they were all bad, but I am saying that

these are bad, Mr. Chairman.

There is one here, the information was given, funding of an

hotel in St. Lawrence. I don't have a problem with that, upgrading an hotel for

the tourism industry. Here is another one, business machine operation, a retail

service outlet for sales of business machinery in Clarenville. I mean, is the

minister saying that we can go anywhere now in the Province and get funding for

a retail operation, because I have a million ideas. I might move to Lewisporte

tomorrow and start a business. Will the minister give me money for a video shop?

MR. BAKER: How much would you like?

MR. WINDSOR: I would like $50,000.

MR. BAKER: Are you prepared to move tomorrow?

MR. WINDSOR: And I am prepared to move tomorrow.

MR. BAKER: Come see me.

MR. WINDSOR: I am prepared to move to Lewisporte.

MR. BAKER: Come see me.

MR. WINDSOR: And the hon. member knows that I have a

building available to do it in.

AN HON. MEMBER: Open a drug store.

MR. WINDSOR: No, I wouldn't cut into the hon. member's

business.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: What? Fund a drug store? Yes, to get you out

of business? Why not? The hon. member has a Sears outlet, I believe.

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. WINDSOR: He has a Sears outlet. Well, he funded a

Sears outlet down in St. Catherine's somewhere. Why can't you get funding for

your Sears outlet?

AN HON. MEMBER: Open an Eatons.

MR. WINDSOR: I will open an Eatons outlet in Lewisporte.

That would go well out there.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Yes. There are lots of things I could do in

Lewisporte if the minister is going to give me this kind of funding.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Boy, I would be gone. I would be gone. I was

eligible two years ago for my pension, Mr. Chairman. I am here because I love it

so much, because the hon. gentlemen opposite make it so easy for me.

AN HON. MEMBER: We would miss you.

MR. WINDSOR: And you would be lonely without me. Of

course you would.

Here is another one, a beauty parlour in Marystown: $26,000

to reconstruct a building.

AN HON. MEMBER: What else have you in Lewisporte?

MR. WINDSOR: That's it for Lewisporte. They didn't get

too much. The member didn't do his job well. The only things that got funded

were things that were working against him.

AN HON. MEMBER: Look at Carbonear.

MR. WINDSOR: Oh, I am coming east here, am I? What am I

into now?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: No, there is nothing in Carbonear. You

didn't get a cent.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: The Member for Port de Grave got a

children's clothing store in his district.

AN HON. MEMBER: We just closed one down in Carbonear.

MR. WINDSOR: - and a restaurant out there. Shame! Body

Trim Toning Studio in Labrador City - Labrador City, I say to my friend. The

hon. gentleman should get a free pass, I would say. A garage in L'Anse-au-Clair:

to purchase assets and re-open a garage in L'Anse-au-Clair.

AN HON. MEMBER: It's the only one that was there.

MR. WINDSOR: Is that the only garage, I ask to my friend?

Is that the only garage in L'Anse-au-Clair? It is.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Well, then, he should be doing very well on

his own if he has a monopoly up there.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. WINDSOR: The owner left.

Carpet upholstery cleaning in Labrador City; an aesthetics

beauty service in Labrador City. Boy, we have some beauty going on in Labrador

City! A rental, retail and service operation; a music store in Labrador City;

Fashions and Fabrics in L'Anse-au-Loup: some sewing associated with that,

seamstress business. There is some validity. Painting and plastering in Happy

Valley - Goose Bay: I know there aren't a lot of painters and plasterers in

Happy Valley - Goose Bay!

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. WINDSOR: Well, $13,500 to purchase equipment that

would improve his business. I guess it would. How many more painters and

plasterers in Happy Valley - Goose Bay would like to have $13,500 to improve his

business? Another one in L'Anse-au-Clair to purchase an existing retail

business, a grocery and confectionary store, $100,000. One hundred thousand

dollars in L'Anse-au-Clair to purchase an existing retail business. Mr.

Chairman! Painting and a home improvement contractor in Labrador City. No

painting and home improvement contractors in Labrador City! We have to put

$60,000 for an operator to move premises because his premises were sold and he

had to go buy a new building for himself. Port Hope Simpson: storage of

inventory for snowmobile dealership. A retail thing, but for Port Hope Simpson

on the Coast of Labrador, I guess I have some sympathy. It is borderline, there

are a couple of them here. Northern Light Sales in Black Tickle: the only major

operator there, but does he need $80,000 worth of funding to assist him to keep

going in Black Tickle? Maybe he does. Here is a good one, to set up an operation

in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, the sport of paint ball. It is a new sport in Happy

Valley - Goose Bay. You shoot balls of paint at one another. It is a military

game, great fun, they all run around shooting each other with balls of paint. I

suppose you could say it is a tourism thing, borderline, and it says it uses the

snow goose facilities at the ski lodge in the summertime. I suppose you can see

some justification but we are stretching our imagination. We are being

charitable here today because the sun is shining. Electrical and plumbing in

Makkovik; repair store and snowmobile repair shop in Makkovik. Is there another

one there? Is that the other one? I say to you, Mr. Chairman, there is not a

person on the Coast of Labrador that has an snowmobile that is not an expert in

repairing snowmobiles, not one. A garage operation in Northwest River: it says

it is the only one in Northwest River. I wonder, Mr. Chairman. A convenience

store in Northwest River; another for Makkovik. Wait, now. I had Makkovik

before. Oh, this is interesting, Mr. Chairman. Here we have funding of a retail

store and a snowmobile repair shop in Makkovik, $48,000, a much-needed service

in Makkovik, and three pages further on, we have another $32,000 to another

group of individuals in Makkovik to purchase winter stock for a snowmobile

dealership. Now, at least we are being fair, we are funding both of them. This

is a new twist, they are both being funded, two of them in Makkovik. I could

live with funding one in Makkovik, to provide a service that wasn't there, but

if you fund two in Makkovik, now you are competing with yourself.

Mr. Chairman, I could go on all day and all night on those.

It is very obvious that nothing has changed from three weeks ago when the

minister gave us the list, and there are others on the list that I had not

highlighted that night. The night we had the Estimates I highlighted the ones

that immediately appeared of interest but there were others afterwards that we

have questioned and that I did not ask for at that point in time, so I don't

have any more detail. But it doesn't matter.

The bottom line is, we are now funding retail operations that

are clearly competitive with other operators that add nothing to the economy of

the Province. I can appreciate they might bail out an existing operation, but I

say to the minister, a retail operation that is competing with others, if it

goes under, that business will be picked up by others. There is no loss to the

economy and there will be very few, if any, losses of jobs, because other

operators will pick it up. There are a couple here who have gone bankrupt since

being funded.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Chairman, I will get back at this in the

morning.

On motion, that the Committee rise, report progress and ask

leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair.

MR. SPEAKER (Lush): The hon. the Member for Trinity - Bay

de Verde.

MR. L. SNOW: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole on

Supply have considered the matters to them referred, have directed me to report

progress and ask leave to sit again.

On motion, report received and adopted, Committee ordered to

sit again on tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: Speaker number one: I expect it is the

Member for St. John's East - it is the best I can decipher from this - the hon.

the Member for St. John's East, stating his dissatisfaction with a question

asked of the Premier regarding the Long Harbour incinerator project.

The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It wasn't the question with which I was dissatisfied, it was

the answer. I am still dissatisfied with the answers I am getting from the

Premier and the government on this issue.

We had a full debate in this House yesterday on the Private

Members' motion that was put by the Member for Torngat Mountains. I didn't get

to speak on that because so many people were interested in getting up and having

their say.

What seems clear, not only from the questions asked in the

House of the Premier, and the answers given there, but there are two standards

going on, on this issue of the incinerator project at Long Harbour.

There is the official view of the government, which is, We

don't have any proposal. There is no proposal, there is no project; a head in

the sand attitude that is expressed by the response to the government officials

yesterday in the House, a pretence to the people of this Province that, We have

no proposal. We see nothing, we hear nothing, we know nothing until we get a

proposal, and then we are going to engage in a full-scale environmental review

in accordance with The Environmental Assessment Act. That is one view that the

government members have put forth.

The other view is the Premier's personal view. The Premier

wants to have it both ways. Well, I am opposed to this project. I am opposed to

importing garbage, just like everybody else in the Province. Now, the Premier is

entitled to his view. Maybe he is the only one over there who is entitled to his

view. The Minister of Environment and Lands says that she doesn't think she is

entitled to have an opinion on it. I asked yesterday whether the other members

of the Cabinet have an opinion on it, and whether, in fact, there is an

unofficial view.

The unofficial view is that it is the Premier's view, which

is that we are all opposed to it, but we are going to put this company and