Volume XLI Monday -..... Province of Newfoundland FORTY- FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session PRELIMINARY REPORT (Hansard} Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush Number 89 3 December 1990

r he House met at 2:00 p.m. M1~. Oi~cler·, pleasE!! On bE!half of hon. mmnbeJ~s like to welcome l:o the galleries today thirty-two l lAJould public grade Queen School, eleven students from Elizabeth Regional High Foxtrap, accompanied by teachers Mr. Lloyd Johnson Heber Best. their and Min. Some Hon. Members: H.::1ar, h.::1ar! Oral Questions Mr. Speaker: The hon. the ME!i'nber foJ" Humber East. Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is to the Premier.

Th.::~ Minister· of Health has raised the level of Fear· and anxiE!l":.y in the Province by teLling the nNvs media that more than twelve hospitals should close. Does the Minister agree with that statement? Mr. Speak.::'r: rhe hon. the PrerniE!Y' . Pr·ernier Wells: Not only clo .I not ag I~E' e lAJ'.i t. h t h r::! statement, Ml". SpE~akE!r, I haUl':! h<'tcl a discussion .with the Ministel" of Hr:!alth since:• that Ume and the:~ MinistE!r of Health tells me:~ that he has neve1" lflade l:hal:. statE:'tnenl.: l:o the news media. And I would prefer, Mr.

Speake:~r. ·to ask l:he Minister of Health to answer the question. He can explain exactly what was said rather than have me do it. Min. Speaker : Th.::~ hon. the Minister of Health . Mr. Decker : be nPfit ·-0 f pul: l:.h"i.s Mr. Speak1:!r, For l:.hE:' thr:· hon. Men1be1" 1C:'! l. l'rl£:' inl:.o pei"Spect-:.ive.

On L1 DecembeJ" 3. 1990 Vol XLI F I'·· '1 clay a f' Ll':' r· noon p a·. l.. 1 t,~,,-,1 ~;; C\ p pI" 0 a c h u d b \} d j () u I" n c'l I L ,, l: ,-I'' u IT! the Sunddy Express who asked me Lo VSI"iFy his SOUY'Ce, a I"UIJ'!Or rr'OITI his sour'ce. that tJJE~ lAJE'I"E:' ~Jo'.ing to c1ose twelVE! to fourl:eE!n hospitals in this Province. I advised the journalist that we had no intention of closing twelve to Fourteen hospitals, but. I did go on to explain that it is possible that tJJe lAd 11 be changing the role of some of the institutions in this Province. I explained that was be i n g 1 o o k e d at .

I a 1 s o explained that evE~n H-- Ll'l!? PJ"ovince:' did not haVE! the f:iscal pr'oble:~ms that:. tJJe have, in Lhe interE:~st of bE!tter h.::1alth caJ"e it would be necessary for· us to change the role of some of the institutions to help II"IP!':!t the pi"oblerns that we havE:• in oul" cht"onic caJ~e. M1~. SpeakE!r, in Ul'.i.s PJ"ovincE! thE:~re are 3,22 1) acut~e caJ" .e beds, we require 2,300 - if they were properly distributed and properly utilized. Thel"e arE! 2, 500 chJ"onic care beds. tJJE:~ need an addi t:.iona1 300 bNIS. So, Ml".

SpE:~aker, tl'lE'I"P is nol:hinq IIIOI"P log-Leal OJ" J"E:'asonabJ .r.:• than us t(J Jlldkr::, a Sl/Ji:lp. f"hi,!I"E:! di"E' inst ·:i l:.Ul:.:ions in thj_s Pl"ovinc!? lAJhJch aJ"e opE:!J"at.·.in~J at foJ"t~y per CE!nl:. I ·:>did in U1'" paper fifty - five, I have checked tJJiLh the de:~partrnent since tht:!n; forty per cent occupancy, Ml". Speaker. NotAl, tJJE:! have a choice: we can le:'t those institutions die a lingering death in being irnpr·operly use:<d and undE:!J"utili.zed, or we can meet a more drastic need in our' Pr·ovince and use sonw of l:hose p1acE:'S For our chJ"on'.ic Ci'".li~E! facility, Mr.

Speaker. So, that is L.he context · in lAJhich l:he statement - but Lhe headline is Jnisl£;'ad'inq Fr·orn tAJilal sl..oJ~y says, fol" hun. would read Lhe st-:.orv. No. 89 LhE~ act11al rrJ (' I'll b ('> I" S IAJ h 0 Rl

M r . s p e a k E! In : r IH' h 011 . L h (' M t:'l'n b !:) r for· Hurnbet ~ "F~:as L. ~s _ Verge: ·Thank you, M1~ . Speaker. The Minister has, in fact, confirmed that he and the Premier are proposing closing hospitals. I lAJould like for hirn to tell the House which hospit.als he is proposing to close and convert to chronic care, o1n ·to convert to any other use? Mr. Speaker: The han. thE! Minister of Health . Mln. Decker: Min. SpE:'aker, I do not knolAJ holAJ I said it, but just in case I did giVE:' rnisinfor·mation, I did not say that we aine going to close hospitals. I do not know where the hon.

Member was but I did not say we are going to close hospitals. What I said is, that we are going to change the role. we are looking at the possibility of changing the role, and this lAJill ensuine that sorn(~ of the smaller hospitals which are now being utilized at as low as 40 per cent, some of these hospitals tAr.ill be changed into an area lAJhere the need is greater . Now, there is no Lhing netAJ about chan~)ing the ro1::• or · hospitt.·l'ls in this Province, Min. Speai<E!in. Some years aye a hospital in North West River had their role changed. It was total1y closed - it was not used fain chr•onic caine.

The hospital in North West River was turned into a clinic. A hospital in the Whitbourne - Markland area was totally closed dolAm and a cli.nic was put in its place. In Corne By Chance the has pi tal had i t.s role changed from a hospital to a clinic. Buchans v.Jas chan~)ed from an acuLc:! ca1ne centine to a chtnonic car·e centre. An l-Ion. Membei": B o l·:.lJJO o cl . L2 December 3, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Decker: 13ol.-.t;.Joocl. lrJ::• c.'\1'1 <JO ~=;·i1·-·-·-a ·;:1cr·- -(, n - a

I) d n a Ill(' Ur ('Ill . N 0 lA! ' lAI!' have the choicr:• : ,,::::· r:ar1 rnainl:.-:t.irr the status quo for·E!VE'ln Ol" v.w can take taxp<.ilyer 1 s doLlars and spc:!ncl them for the sakE:~ of keep ·ing instttutions alive, which aro not serving a valuable function in the health care system. We have a choice of leaving this alone or we can be progressive, tAlE:' can change with the times. and lJJE• can ri'IE!E! t the other need whE!r~"! the demand is increasing. Our population is aging, Mr. Speaker , and I t:hink it. is a very sensible approach to take.

Rath~::~r l:.han des Li"Oy-.inq buildings, I think lAJ(:! can chanqe the rolt~ of them and E!I'1SUi"E! t.hat in thE:~ futu1ne they wi 1] . br::• thei"l':' to serve the needs of_our people. Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. -Speaker: The han. the Mt::•1nbe1~ for· Humber East . Ms Verge: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Presumably, changing the role is the Libr:~ral euphemism for closoing hospitals. Will the Mini.st.E!l" tt,d .I t h e H o u s e tJ.J h i c h h o s p ·i l:. i:'l 1 s h o tAl" n l:. s t () c h a n q (! t h e l" (_) ] f• (I r ? w h .i c h h o s p i l: a 1 s a

n) l: a l" g E' L ::! d 1-rH' a !"' n 1 ::• chanqe? Ml". Speakr:~r : ThE! hoir. thr::• Minister of Health . Mr. Decker: Mr . Speaker, I i'Hn not. ready at l:his t.:i.l'flE! to spE!C:if:lcaJ.ly say which hospitals are, other than to· t e 11 the h on . M ~=! rn bE! r that ever since I tJJas appoinh'd t.o this job a year and a half ago I have been looking at the role of every single institution in this Province, fi"Oifl Lh~'! SITta11est Lo l.:ht:> Health Sciences Centre. Every s:ln<;j1e insl:.iLul.ion :is br~'inq Jookecl <:·1 L an cl :r: lAI 0 u] cl be l" t::• I'll :i s s ]. r I lA! r:· I" e a Mtni~;Lel" of l-le<'lll.h i:'tild d id rtu l: No. 89 ru

1 o o k ;··\ L l:. he r o l (' s of v i'\ I" oi. o us hospitals throughout the Province l:. o see iF l:. h t:' y d 1·· 1 • !:: e s t s e I" v :i. n q the needs of our people. I am not in a position at Uris moiTIC:'nl.. l:o say to any particular hospital that l..Utl are going to chanqt:~ your role~. We are looking at the total health care system.

We are looking at a11 the hospitals, we are looking at all the nur~ing homes, and wt:~ are trying to make sure that our health care sys b:lm, which was allowed ove1" tht::l years to disintegrate and Fall behind the timE!S and not rnet::~t the modern era, we are trying to pull this health ca1"e system up to the latter part of the twentieth century so that we are ready to move into the next century. Mr. Speaker: The han. the Member for HumbE!r·East. Ms Verqe : rhank you, Mr . Speaker. A supplementary foJ" the Premier.

Will the Premier tell tht::~ Houst:1 t..uhether his GoVE!rnrnent' s · rural hospital role change/ closure plan is pal"t of phase two of the Liberal resettlement PI"Oc:JI"am? ~! · Speaker: T he hon. the Premoi.er. Premier WeLls: Mr· . ~)pE:!ai<E:!Y', let. me givr,1 the House som~;:1 infonnat:ion on health can1 budgeting. In the year 19'78-19'79, 21.6 pt::1r cent of the Province's Budget WE~nt to ht:1alth care. The former Government increased that by ~ whole 4.2 percentage points.

So in the last year they brought in a Budget, it had been increaSE!cl to 25.8 per cent, which is 4.2, a fairly substantial increase, because the demands had been incrt:1asing. Mr. Simms: Actually (inaudible) budget fi~ures . · L3 Dt:'CE!Inber 3, 1990 Vol XLI Pr10rn:i~~ r We11s: l'h•:•·>•'' ,.H'e I·I,JO pa~JC:'·s out. of- -l:luci~Jel:. [·~,Ltmat.e~; ancl I din askinq l::h1::~1n l:o .l.r)ok no1-'J aL the actual expenditures. But I can tell l:he hon.

MelnbE!I~s that l::h1~ 21.6 per cent IAJas thr:1 rE!ViSE!cl ·figure, l:he 1988--1989 lAJas l':he estimated figure at 25.8 per cent, and I believe it had actually increased. The actual expenditure was probably a bit more than that, it might even have been 26 per cent or 26. l, o1n sornethinq or-- that nature. Now. Mr. Speaker, wi t hin months of this Government. office we have brought tlAJB J V E:1 l:akinq t n t.IAIO wt~ had to 27. 8 Budgets and by that time increased the expenditure per cent - 27.8 per cent. twelve months, Mr. Speaker - tAJi l: hi n M I" . S i mrn s : Yes , 1 p r:~ r cent .

Premier Wells : - of this Government taking office . Ml". Simms : ( Inaudiblr:~) . P1nemier Wells: No, thcd.: is the est :i. mate . For l:. his y r:~ a r . r hal:. i. s t:he es l:irnat.e f o1" L.hoi s c UI"I"E•nt. yea1" .i n lAl h .i C h IAJ (:'! ii I" 8 i. 11 . W E! p U l:. i l.·. 1.1 p to 2'/.8 pel" CC:'!I'Il:, Ml". ~3pedk'''~"'• w hi c h is appro xi rna t: e 1 y IJ.Q p C' In c E! n l: in on(~' yeal" or:· lAJhat. l::hE· foi "Jnel" Government had done in Len. An Han. Member : (Inaudib1c:•) your bu~get (inaudible) . Prr:1rrder Wells: Mr. Rideau l: be aftE!r (inaudib1e) .

Now, if you want a What will the actual you are Finished Premier Wells : Mr. Speake in, LhE• actual wil l be approx i mate l y the SdlllP i::ts l:.haL. I clo not: sc·e <:'IllY substant i al di l I erence oi n Lh e No. 89 1n

actual expenditure this year; Ll'kre llkty be so111e, but . <'' relat:i vely rni nol" cl:if r·erence in thr:' actual expenditure this year on health care and that that was budgeted. So, Mr. Speaker, this Government is not intent on closing out hospitals and resettling as the han. Member is talking about. It is utter nonsense, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The han. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: rhank Speake!". Ml". Sp€:!aker, redirect my questions Minister of Heal t:h. He that. his comments t.o.Jith the questions asked colleague t.uere tak.:1n a by the Sunday Express. you, Mr.

I lAJant to to Lhe suggested respect to by my bit wrong May I ask him if this comrne r\'1~ is accurate, or this allegation I guess, in the same interviet.u in which he described the Pl"ovince 1 s he a 1 t h c are s y s t "=' 1 n as a v e·r i tab 1 r:~ make-work factory that sometimes overlooks its V~!ry reason for existence. And if he made that s t. a t E:~ rn e n t. , l: h a t s t a t e me n t. i s certainly a serious condemnation of the entire health care system . But. [ lAJant hi.m to confil"rn thaL he madE~ that statemEHit. I ass urn€:! hE:1 did. Would he briefly explain it?

And what evidence does he have to support that particular charge, that the health care s y s tE:'ITI in this Province is primarily concerned with make-work progr·ams, employing doctors and nurses and other health care proFessiona1s. Mt .. :. ______ .?.J>..f: .. ?.:.l< '?:. r: : r he h o n . Minister of Health. ~-l~-· __ [b=' c k £.C. : c 0 u I"·~ 1:! I d i cJ Mr . Speaker, not say Lhat the of' l..he L4 December· 3, 1990 Vol XLI total hr:'alt.h c<:·11"e sy~;l_eJII in Lhi<; Pr.ovinct c' ts a rn<.ike ...

JAJuJ'·k pr··o~JI"ctlll. lhat would be LoLally irresponsible. ll\lha!: I cl:i.d say "i.n thE! intE!rViE!l.U, Mt". ~:>pE!akE•t", lAJas that there are hospitals in the Province IAJhich ar·E:~ bE:!in~~ utilizr:'cl at 55 per cent. I have since checked it out and have discovered that there are hospitals in the Province which are being uti1ized at 40 per cent of their occupancy level, Mr. Speaker. Now, why do we keep these institul~.ions alive? I poinLE!d out that t.UE! cannot kE•E!p hospit.a1s alive simply as a Jtli~ke .. ·tAJOI"k program. I said we cannot do that.

Now make-work program is not the proper words and I apologiz~! For that:, but, Mr. Speaker, we can only keep hospita1s alive in this Province to de1iver health care. Now sometimes lAJh~:!n t.ue chanqE:' the role of a particular institution we get the Members of Lhe Opposition screaming out, we get some people, sorne st:akE!holciE!rs complaining because we are ch .anqing L.he role. But very ol-l:::'n thE•se co1nplatnts dJ"e n1acl~:· no( on the basis of wheLher or not we ctre delivering health care, these ar·qumE!nts and Lhc:!SI:" co1nplaoinl:.s dl"e based on non -health matters, Mr. Speakt':!r. Bl~ L.

For· de1iv€"1"Y of health care it is not a proper use oF the people 1 s money Lo keep institutions in their present role when only 45 per cent of their beds are occupied; it is bottE!Y' to change the role, and we cannot stop from changing the role by making the decision based on non-health issues. Make-work program liLtle extreme, apologize For slatemenL. No. 89 is probably a and I would 1naki.ng l~ha 'l. R4 ·

IVJr. :3peak~;:c : rhe hun . L~hP Opposition House Leader . Min o Si.ITIITIS: ---· you, Min. Thank Speaker. WE:! are making so111e progress. Now the Minister admitb~d he rnade he is sorry for that is fine. that comment but making it, and Would the Minister not agree that underutilization of hospital services is really one of the consequences of our geography and our populahon dist1nibut.ion?

Secondly, is he sugqesting - and in that:. intervietAJ this is tAJhat I think comes thr·ough ..... that in the name of saving dollars and balancing the book we must cut back on providing health care services to remote and rural parts o·f Newfoundland and Labrador? And while I arn on my feE!t, can I ask him if he 1..\JOl~ld table in Uie I'H;!Xt day 01n so a list of a11 hospitals in l:he Province and .t:hE!ir occupancy rates? Mr. Speaker: The hon. the:~ Minister of Health . Mr. Decker : Mr .

Speaker, those are a l ~I of questions he has COIIIpln(:)SSE'ci into one. rht:' lnE)d~:;ons For the low occupancy rate are rnany and thE:'Y are varted. On l.h(! Burtn Peninsula, for example, the1ne t.J.Jas a 1ow occupancy rab'! in thE! St. L.atAllnE:'nce and the Grand Bank hospitals. We had to chanqe the role of these and make them into community health care centrE!S. Now tlie reason for the:~ low occupancy rate 'in these .two facilities was this: Just up the road, at Burin, there was a big regional hospital built - the prev"ious administration did il~.

So what was happening was the people who 1ived in Grand Bank and ::;t. LaiAllnr:•ncr::! t;.Jf"l"l':' by -·pass·inq l:.he local .inst·.·.it:.ul:ions dnd lh1:'y I!JC!Inl:' L r . .> DE!Cernbel" 3 I 1990 Vol XLI q o ·in CJ l: o the b .. L '1 'J r::• I" c r::• n t i'' :c! , t;.J h u I" e you have spE!C:ia1 · 'i,;:;l~s on s!..d'ff', lAlhE:!I"e you have <3.11 the IIIOSl: ITIOciUI"Il technica1 equipment. So that is 0 n E.~ 0 [c the r E~ aS 0 n S l!J h y L h E• bE'! cl S are unclerutilized.

The:~ institutions were:' acute care centrE!S, but not have the services to the people, so they just disappe•ar. narnE:!d as they did offE!r' to began to Now gE:!OSJY'aphy is a facto1n that. lAIE~ have to consider in this Province. It has nothing to do t.J.Jith occupancy oF bE•cls. CE!Oql"c·\phy means that we have to have hospitaJ.s in diffei"E!nt I"E•gions of' this Province; we have to have hospitals in Labr•aclor and on l:he Northern Peninsula; ull:! have• to have hospitals west of' (inaudible). Whel"eas 'iF all OUI" people were in one city, we are only the equ-ivalent of a larqe city, Mr.

Speaker, we could ce1ntainly ·-I can unck!I"Stancl lAJhat thr::~ hon. Merni:H;H' is say'ing, but f1norn the gE!ography point of v:i.etAJ it does have some I::H"ar·ing, but it is not in any lAlC\.Y t.he rna·.in Fa c t 0 In . r h (! In d :i. n r:c d c t () Y' i. s lAJ h ('\ L i s h a p p E' n ·.i n q l:. o h 1:• <:-1 J L. h c <:-1 I' ' I:' , M :· . Speakeln.

H~;!i'llth ca1·'l" is bE!COIIIinq c:-1 hiqhLy specia1ized proFession and in order to meet l:he needs of our people, we have to have specialisl~s. tAle havE:! l':o hc'tve technical equ'.'i.pl'TIE:'nt in facilities, and the Province just can not afford to put a health science care centre in Roddickton, For example. The Province does not haVE! the money to do it, so tAle have regional centres.

And l:he people realize that their needs cannot be met in these sma11er c E:' n t I" 1::> s , s o l.: h e y a r· e q o i n CJ o n ,., n cl ~>ll'ld.l11''1" Cl"nl.i"E:•S dl"(• bc,i .nq u n cl1:' I" u l: i 1 .i z 1:' cl . l:l u t L h c• y ': e I" l: .-~ i. n 1. y No. 89 Rl:)

could llli?lkt:1 t:>xce l.lc:~nt . places ch :"on ic cai '·e fac il"i.t.:i.C:'!S, so l:.heir liFe couJ.d bo ·.insuJ~t::'cl, SpE!akeJ~, foJ" as long as Province continues to exist. 1: or Lhat Mr. t ht:! Mr . Speaker : The hon . the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: I am sorry, I ask too many questions for the Minister. I will try to make it E:1asier. He did not tell me if he would ti3.ble a list of all thE:~ hospitals and their occupancy. I presu1nt::~ he would have no pr'oblem u..dth that, perhaps he can addrE!SS it in my final supplementary.

In that same interview the Minister said, I belieye he said, IJ.Je will give hirn a chance now to confirm whether he did or not, that we could save millions of dollars if tJJe could just get duplication out of the health care sysb:Hn in St. John's, ;r believe he said that. And, of course, WE~ have heard that before from the Minister in reference to arguments about closing down hospitals in St. John's. Can I ask him this, is he or has he had discussions lAJith officials of Lhe hospitals in St. John's?

And .is he presenl .. ly, therefore, looking at Lhe close down of speciality services or whole departments in certain hospitals in St. John's? And could he also tel1 us when he is on his feet if, in fact, he does have a timing plan for the close out of the Grace Hospital or the other Hos~ital, St. Clare's? Mr. Speaker : Thr:~ hon. thE~ Minister of Health . Mr. Decker: Mr . Speaker, I have an excel1ent relationship with the hospital boards and Lhe acl1n:in :istral.oJns in t..h·.is I:>I"Ovi.ncr::!.

Anc! tJJe have 1\IP[··. on SE!VOI"d.1 L6 Decr,,rnbE!r' 3, 1990 Vol XLI o c c a s 'i o n s tAli L h t h e h o s p ·i L a 1 b o a I" r :1 s ancl the c1cl111.in:i.s Li"at.OI''"~ l"iqh l hr::•1' 1:• in l:.his city. And I pointed oul. that if the duplication in l:.his city were removed we could save millions of dollars. I stand by that statement, Mr. Speaker. Obstetrics alone : IJ.Je haVE:' in this city two hospitals, E:dther of which could meet 'the needs for all the deliveries in the St. John's region, either one could do it .

What has happened over the last c o u p 1 r:;! of y I':' a r s , t~J E! h a v E! s E! e n t h t=.! Clarenuille Hospital which is taking the deliveries which used to comE! to St. John's, tJJe have the hospital on the Burin Peninsula which is now dealing with l:.he deliveries which take place on the Bur'in Peninsula. They u~;E!d to carne to St. John's. We also have a declining birthrate, Mr. SpE~aker'. So we find oLH'SE<lv!O:'S in a position in this city whE·I~I=:! IAJt! have the Grace and St . Clare 1 s: tJ.Jith very lil:.t .le modifications, either one could handle ail Lhe deliveriE:'S in the city.

We hav1:> in this city, Mr. SpE:'akE!r, tlAJO hospitals which are delivering dialysis services, either one of which could provide a.1l the IWt:•ds of our pE :!oplr:'. 1 could ~JO on ancl give a t;.Jhole lol~ of ~~Xi.'HIIplus. Now Government has no intention of going in with the hobnail booLs and closing this clown.

What Government has donE~ though is rnet · IJ.Iith the adminis tr'ators and l::ht:.> hospital boar'd chainnNl and tAlE' said we will see if IJ.Je can work out sorne system IJ.Jhereby WE~ do not have to take $3 million and put it into obstetrics here and $3 million and put it across Lhe street in another hospital, is thl':'!re some tJJay we can bring thr::•s,:· two systems together? And the hospital board administrators dnd the boar'cl chair'rnr:•n aqr'rc•e l:ha L 'it . is i 11 cl o e d IAJO r 1:: h 1 o o k in g at. . J t is No. 89 R6

:in cl c (' cl lAJO In t~ h p Llln s u :iII q ' M I" . ~3peakE•J". A-ncl I a111 q1<::tcl to l .. C:=!I l hon. ITIE!irJbeJ"S that·. in co-opel"a'l:.:i.on with the boaJ"cls lAJE:! a1"1:~ 1ook:in~J at lAJays to take out duplication, because this Province owes $5.6 billion which the previous administration built up. We cannot borrow any more for duplications. This Province has all it 1 s taxing capaci.ty usE:H~ up. We cannot raise any morE! taxes to pay For these needs. And we have to look, Mr. Sp(:~aker, at ways to take out any duplication.

Howevel", at t.hr:~ E•ncl of the day lAJe have to make sure that all the basic services lAH:~ can afford a1"e available to our people, and t.ha t means available in the different regions, but that does not mean available two and threefold, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: T he han. l:he ME:Hnber for Port au Port. Mr. Hodder: Mr. Speake I", a question far the Minister of Mines and Energy. As the Minister is aware, Abitibi-Price in Stephenville is the only large indus Ll"Y in Bay St.

Ct::>or·qe, and I would take it t hat he is a l so <:HAJaJ"e Lhc::tl: the 1wi l l is clepenclr::-nt on Government ~enera t ecl sources of e.lec'l:r·ici . l:y. I believE· the 11riil managE:!I" I"E:!CC::!nt1y said that 2 1) pel" cent to 30 p(,'r CE!nL of the mill's operating cost is electricity.

And in light of the fact that officials at the Abitibi-Price mill have said l:hal:. the mill lAli.11 only break even this year and ar'(:' for·ecas ting losses for the corning years, because of the ever-increasing rises in the electrical rates which are Fo1necast, has l:he MinisLr:'r' had any discussions with the management of the 1rriil about: l:h~~il" concE•I"ns OVE:'r t hr::! cos t o f elf:•c Ll""ici l.~v and Lhr::•i r· ab.i.L ·iL.y Lo i'1chiuvE~ Hcono111ic L7 Dece rnbel" 3, 1990 Vo1 XLI ...c, viabiliLy For the mill? Mr. ~)peai~ E!I:: rhE! hu n . l:.hu M:i.nis Lei" of MinE!S and Enr:H'~JY . Dr.

Gibbons: Thank you, Mr· . Speaker. I do not recall the last time that I had a discussion w".ith thr::! managE:Hnen t oF the rni11. but it. lAJas during a visit to the S'LE!phenvi11r:! a1nea sevE:~ral months asJo. In Lhe rnE:!antim(:~, p(~'oplE! frorn Newfound :land and Labrador Hydro have had discussions with rnanaqE•ITIE!nt c.".l:. thr:• rn".i11, and I l:.h'i.nk that:. has be1:'n over the last couple of months. ~r. Speakel": Th€:~ han. the ME!rnbel" for Port au Port . Mr. HoddE:~r : Mr .

Spr:~akE:~r. would the Ministel" confii"ITI that: hr::• has told thE! mana~~E!rllent oF LhE! mill that the Government does noL intend to offer reJ.:ie f from l:he onerous electricity rates, and thE:dr abiLity to achieve E:~cono1wic viabi1ity? Has thE:~ MinistE!I" told the rnanagE:Hnent that they u.Jou1d <:JI:!t no relieve on electricity rates? ~T· ~:>pE~akeJ" : ·1 ho h011 . l_he Mi ni ster of Mi nes "'n d E nl=! 1·· q y . Dr. Gibbons: Ml" . ~)peakeln, I hdve not t old th(• rnanaqE!ITIE=!n t. of Lhe rni.ll anything.

I know t hE~Y IJaVt:! been having discussions wi l:.h NetAJfouncllancl and Labi"dclor Hycl1no about the cos t of hydro. They havE:~ also been 'looking at l:hings they cou1cl do on dE!lTiancl side managernE:'nt and of f peak usage of power. And Hycii"O has offei"E•cl to do a study lAJ:iLh the managE!ITIE!nL oF t hE~ rni1 1 to hE•lp t hE:~rn in any lAJay to addrE•ss t he cosl: of E:'l'lE!J"qy f' or tha t mil l . Meanwhi l e t hey are atAJar1:>, as a .II o UlE'I" "indus tr·· oL a l cust.omr"I"S ".in lhe Pr·ov .i. nce di"E! dlAiiH'C•, l hal: [:he I'"' I;' iS U 1'1J.y 0 l'l(! No. 89 rn

i n cl u s l: 1A ·j <'I l I" i't l:. l:' t n l.. h i s I' 1·' o v i n c e , othE •r.tJJ:ise cur::· hi:!VE! to Jook at :. subsidies . A l:. t.his t. i.1ne lAJe ar·e not Jooking at a cltl~ect subsidy fro m Go ver nm ent to the mil l. Mr. Speak.::1r: fhe hon. the Member for Port au Port . Mr. Hodder: Mr. Speaker, the Minister is no doubt aware that the mi 11 was originally bui 1 t by the Government. I mean it was built as a li nerborad mi 11 by the Liberal Government, and the mill does not have an adequate wood supply and it dOI::! S not have any private source of electrical generation. Mr .

Speaker, does not the Minister feel that the Government has an obligation in these difficult times, with the difficulties that are being forecast, that the paper industry i.s facing and particularly the Stephenville mill? Does not the Minister think that t:he Government has an obligation to give the mill a br~~ak in light of the econo111ic importance of the mill? Mr. Speake r.: The han . M ini~te r of Mines and Energy . l:he Dr . Gibbons : !hank you, Mr . Speakr:! l~. Mr . Speab :~r, IAJE! aJ.l real. i.ze the importance of this major industry to the Province, and tJJe are going to continue to work with them.

And when they come in to talk to me and my colleague in Forestry again, tJJe will talk to them about their wood supply and about their energy supply. But . as I said tn my first answer to the other quest ion about industria l r ates , t.:hE!I"E:1 is only one indu strial raLE! in this Pl~ovince, and unt ·i1 tJJe to talk about. sub sidies a 1~ e asked I u,ri-11 not L8 Dece mber 3, 1990 Vol XLI ~ --- be dotnq so. Mr . Speake :..!:: rhe hon . l~he MU111i :::et"· for Port au Port . Mr. Hodder: Mr . 5pE!al<el~, I IAI O U1cl just like to ask a question to the Minister of Fares try.

I am sul ~t:1 that the Minist~::1r of Forestry, who is directly responsible for the mill, realizes that the Bay St . George area of this Province would becom e an econ omic wastel and without th e mi 11. Ha s th e Minister had any meetings lAlit:h l:he management of lhe mi 11 to ascertain lAJays in lAJhich GOVi c•rnii'I ,H1 1... might assist t:o kec,~p thE:• 1'11ill in operation? But most important, and my question to him is: Does the Government:. have a plan? Is there any plan to keep th e mi J.l in operation should closur (O:' beco me eminent? What is hi s plan, co uld he tell us that? Mr.

Speak er : Minister of Agriculture . Mr. Flight: Spea ker . fhe hon . Forestry Thank .YOU, t.he c:l n cl Ml " . MIA. SpeakE•r, I hav E• had V<:tl"iou~; rneet.ings tArilh 1nana gemE•n t. An Han. Member: one? When lAids th f:' Ja '~ L M.!:._: _____ fJ-_t9. .h.:~ : B u t a s ·f a r· a s L h E! Hydro issue is concerned I have left that with the Minister of Mim1s and Ent:H'9Y, because tha t is his responsibility. And I mi ght say, Mr. Speaker, the Mini ster of Min es and En ergy has displayed just as much concern for· th e mill's future viability, and has done E!VE·r·ythinq that hP cdn do , as I have done. - Mr.

H odclei~: Which is noLh:inq . No. 89 R8 .. '

M.l:: .. :_ ...... .f.IJ9.hJ:,_ : -- to rtlct:i n l .. ain and to i. n build confidence ~3tephenvi1J. (c!. in l:.h~" 1n.-i 1.1 Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Flight: Mr. Speaker, you know it is passing strange to me that at a time when the pulp and paper industry in the world is having problems - every business in Canada, as a result of the recession we are in is having problems - these are difficult timr::'s.

Thr::~ pulp and papE!I" industry faced thos~~ hard t.imt'S a J.it.tle ear1ir:~l" than a11 the I"E•st. oF thE:~ indus l:l"ies because downtime, oversupply of production, soft markets, Wt~re crl'::~ating problems fol" them. And I find it passing strange, Mr. Speaker, when Abitibi-Price in particu1al" overcame three strikes, they have overcome 'labour probl~~ms, they are spending money in modernization - the Govel"nment has done everything possible to bolster the confidence of thE! workers, the work force, the peopJ.e in thE! towns to whom thE!Y provide the basis of th~dr economy.

I find it passinq s tl"i:lnqe that Ll;osE• kinds of questions that do no t hing except undermine the confidence and the abiJ.ity of the companies to continue the op•:~rat.ion should come at this particular time. Mr. Simms: You are not allowed to ask a question are you? (Inaudible) repol"ts? do you lJ.Jant the Mr. Flight: to rnr::~ . (Inaudible) the same Ml". Speakr::'l" : The hon . thP Mernbel" For Harbour Main. Ml". DQJL l.e : l"h.::tnk _you, Ml" . L9 DE! cE·rnber 3, 1990 Vol XLI ~:i p 1:• a k ~~I" . I have a q u r::· ~; l.. :i

I) n f o 1·· L h t:' M i n i s L ,,,. I" . o 1: 1::. IT! p 1 o y 111 (:' n L a n d L.abou1~ Relat"Lons. We IAJt:·r·1::! hcal"inq O\H!I" Lhe l!.JE'E!b:!nd ~:.oii'IE! vr:.:.•ry di.StUI"bing COlTIIIIents COrlCE'I"II'inq tl"l(! Labour· Minister, in IJ.Jhich the Minister is clJ.leged to havE:! thi"OWll a temper tantrum, we are to1d, storrnE~d out of a meE~t:ing and refus~:!d to listen to the conce1"ns of thE! union and clr::q:lal"trnenta1 inspectors for Occupational Ht'al th and Safety. First of all le t rne ask the Minis tel": as LhE!

Province's clri .E· ·F rnE•diatOI" - what kind of a tone"! is the Ministel" SE!l:.tinq Fol" a hE•aJ L.hy and a conci1iatory labour relations. c1irnate L<.JiUdn he!" own dr:'partmr::~nt, but in pcH'ticulal", and more importantly, wiLhin Lhe Province in general? Ml". Speake I" : Th~:! MinislE!l" of Labou1" and Relations. hon. the EtTIP 1o y tilE! n t Ms Cowan : Thank _you, Ml" . Speaker.

I do not think I stormed o u ·t , I flo u n c 1'::' d out , I b r:d i. r,, v e . 1 th-.i n k l: hat Uda s hotAJ it tAla s described in the paper. 1 find the quest.·i .on l.nLe!"esl.iil'j in l!ldt t-.he Men1b1:'!l" of the Oppos:i t. ·i.l)l'l secnt~:; Lo hav~:o conFused SOITIC:!IlCliAJ rn_y rol1:• as Minister responsible for runn:inq a deparl:rnl"!nl.- in an eFFicient, ef f ective way that is answer·able Lo the taxpayer·s oF this Province, with m_y I"O].e as seeing that negotiations are carried on in an effective and efficien ·t rnann•:>r as IAJe] 1. And I might add that th~~I"E:' is quite a distinction there.

I arn airning, as I said E·c:H'l:il:'!l", Mr. f:3pr::'aker, to hi.HJ~~ a VE•I"Y ef-Fective Depdrlrnt::'nl, onE:' that I can stand up proudly and f<'ICt' the Laxpayer·~; and say Lhi:-tt -j l' j '> clo:i nq 'iLs bc•sl:. t..uor-·k Ln uccup,'tl-.-.:i.ul1dl. No . 89 f~9

h1:~a ·1 L !1 dnd sai:(!ty in Lh e f'r ·o ui.nce. And I IAii . 1 1 undertake any means that . to see that actuaLity. I haue tha t Lo in ord~;;'r becomE•s an Mr. Speaker: The han. the Member for Harbour Main . Mr. Doyle: Supplementary, Mr . Speaker. I would say to the Minister, having an effective department is not the problem having an effective Minister happens to be. The Occupational HE:~all:h and SaFety Division ar'E! quoted as saying that they feel their ability to do their jobs is impeded by Government policy. Could the Minister explain what is meant by that comment?

And to what policies are the Occupational Health and Safety people referring whE!n they say that they are being impeded from doing their job because of Government policy? Mr. Speaker: Th~::~ Minister of Employment Relations. ~-§.- ~.9 .\~ .~D -: I - han . and the Labour An Han. Memb er: run out. Don't get mad and Ms Cowan: No, I 1Aii11 try to keep caJ m. I only read in th~~ paper tJJhat you read. to the han. Member from Har·bou1n Main, I am not surE! which policy was being referred to. An Han. Member: Were you in the Department this morning? Mr. Speaker: The hon. thE! ME!mber for Harbour Main . Mr. Doy ) e: Mr .

Spt~aker, on a supplementary. The Minister is qUo l ,,, d aS u L L c• r· i n <:] d n U .lt·:. "i.ITI a t·:.Uirl L o LlO December 3. 1990 Vo1 X L1 ... .. -. her Occupati ona l Heal Lh dncl Sa(,,.

L~/ peoplE•,. and Uw quot.e i~,: if you do not 1:lkt' j l:. he1 ~e you 1:an leaue, and quote, 'if you do not like this, perhaps wha l:. you should do is think about going sometJJherE! else. 1 Now, is this quote accurate, and is th~::~ ministE!r saying that her occupational health and safety people, hel" inspectors, who have y~~ars and years of experience should leave if they cannot contend with t.he minister's erratic behavior? Mr. Speaker : The hon . UlC::! MinistE!l~ of Employlrli:!nt and Labour I~E!lations. Ms Cot.o.Jan: Mr .

SpeakE!Y', I did inaE:~E:~d make l:hose COITIITIE!\1lS, and I am not the least bit ashamed of having made them. I am a grE!aL believer in working with people in a democratic way, in t:r·ading id eas and so on with all levels of management and workers wit.hin a dE!palntrrH~nt, but. ti'Wl"e come~; a paint. in t.'ime lAJht~n I, as an elected person, am answerable to the taxpayers of this Province and if I fN'l that Lhr:' cornrnunicat.ion process Lhat has be, ::•n pul: .

"in pl<:'tce is not sE·J~ui.ng to b~C·LLE•l" the l~o]_ ,,. o f L h e d e p a r L me n t , l. h E• n :l n c1 c• 1:• d I w:ill. make staLernent.s to th a t. eFft'.>cl:, and I I:H:.lil'Ue [ OIAJE" i.L to the pub1ic of N(~IAJfouncl1<;~ncl and Labrador. ~.!:..: ___ §..P.~.? .. ~ .. ~-!: : r h e h o n . t: h e M "=' rn b "=' r for Burin - Placentia West. Mr. Tobin: Mr. Speaker·.

I t.o.Jou1d like to ask the Minister of Health if he can tell me, or the House. which hospital board or hospita1 has jurisdictional responsibili ty For prou-.i.d:lnq heal Lh ca1"e s~;;'rui cos to Petite Forte and South East Bight? f11.!: ....:..--2 P e a k <:.!: : I" ill) hun. L11e No . 89 RlO . . ..

~ ..:..:.__..__.., Minister of Health . Mr. DeckE:~l": No, 1'11lr . ~3peakc:•r", not s Ul" e I cl o k n OlAJ this . I take it as notice. T e1rn IAJ'i11 Mr. Speaker: The hon. the ME:HnbE:~r for Burin - Placentia West. Mr. Tobin: Mr. Speaker, the minister, in a letter to rne on March 7, 1990, told rne that it was now being don~'! by the Clarenville Hospital Board and that the responsibility was in t:he process of bEdng passE:~cl OVE!r' to the Bur"in Peninsula Health Care Board.

I know that was the intention and was what l:he minister" lAJas trying to do, but let me say to the minister thal: the visits are now being made by doctors from Placentia, and everytime a different doctor goes down, which is confusing for the people in terms of dealing with the doctors.

So I lAJould like to ask the minister if he would do his best, hopefully before the end of this month, to clarify that situation, and if he will also give the people of Petite Forte and Soul:.h East Biqhl. thE:~ assur"ance that lAJhE!n he is cut.t.inq his buclq,:•l:., Ol" whatE!VI:!I" h~'! is qainq l~o do 1.ui t. h it. t h '" t the f r" (:!que n c y or~ the cloctars 1 visits to the area tAJiJ.1 be rnaintainE!d in the upcorning buclqet. Mr . Speak~.£ : The hon . Lhe Minister of Health . Mr. Decker: Yes, Mr . Speaker, I recall tl1e situation now.

There were problems getting physicians i n thE:~ r e to de a 1 wit h t he c 1 i n i c and the han. ITif~rnber brought i l:. to my attention. We transferred it ov E.'r to another" boar"d. and I thow~ht il~ IAJas r"unning along quitE· smoothly. I certainly will f'•nclealJOI" Lo ~;c•e Lhal: 'i. L .is clone Lll DecE•rnber 3, 1990 Vol XI...I pi"OPE!rly. 'It 1,1as d'if f iculL q 1:;! t l :i n q L h E· p h .Y ~; :i c ·i a n s L. o cj u o l.l "L. t h E! I" e . .I !Art J. 1 c ''! r~ t <'\ i n1 y c h 1:! c k L h ''' rnatL.er oul..

However, 1 canno t co ITirni t any rno I" e ex p ''' n s c• L o it . b u t I certainly will look at lhe issue and see exactly what is going on and make sure that the pE•ople of Petite Forte get the best possible health care we can dE!li.ver, wtt.hin our means. Mr. Speaker: expir"ed. Question P1:!riod has Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees Mr. Speaker : Minister of Agricu1 turne. The han . Forestry thE• and Mr. Flight: ; Mr .

Sp(:~ai<EH', as required by st.atute, I wish to table the Annual Report of Lhe Newfoundland Farm Products Corporation, and the financial statements E!nding March 3:1., 1990, Newfoundland Farrn Products. ~r. Speaker : rhe hon. I_ he Minister of Social ~)er"v:.Lr:es . Mr. Efford : Thank you, Mr. S p e a k e I" . M r . S p e a k "'' r , [ IAri s h L o table the financial and statistical reparLs For the Division of Developmental and Rehabilitative Services of the D<:>partment of 'Social Sf~r--v:icf:'S for" the year 1989 and 1990. Mr. Sirnms: Great spf:'ech . Mr. Efford: questions; I E!l.s e.

You t.~ron 1 t ask ITIE! any cannot say anything Notices of Motion No. 89 1n:1.

~ / ------ Mr: . ~3peak E•c_: rhe Min:isLr:•r of LrnpJoyrnen L Rc':'lations . han . the and Labour r.:'J .. ?..--~-~~U~Q: Mr. Speaker, I g:ive notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, 11

An Act To Amend The Labour Relations Act, 19'77 11 • (BillNo. 73). Mr. Speaker: The han. the Member for Bellevue . Mr. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following resolution:

WHEREAS the Government of Ne~~oundland and Labrador has identified education as a major priority; and

WHEREAS access to quality education is a right not yet enjoyed by every Newfoundlander and Labradorian; and

WHEREAS the Government has taken major initiatives in the area of education, such as the White Papel~ on post -secondary education and l:he Royal Collllrtis sion of Inquiry; IH . IT RE SOLVI '.:D that l:he Hou ~;e of As sembly go on record as support.ing the GOVt'rntnE!nt in -i l:s plan to makr 0 education equal, effective and efficient. Some Hon. Members: Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! Orders of the Day Min. Bakeln: Order 4, Mr. Speaker. On rnol..ton, t h 1:;! f 0 JJ.

OIAJin {;) i:J .i 'J.J. 5 ~J:'' I" (:0 I" :• ad a l:hi .l"d I i1nr::., orde l"c:•d Ll2 December 3, 1990 Vol XLI pas se d and th ei r th e Ord er Paper: l:.i l:.le s ' 0 :::~ l:l. s un A B i 11 , 11 A n A c t T o A'"' '' n cl I h e HighiAJay Traffic Acl :, 19B8 11 • (Btll No. 4·8) A B i 11, 11

An Act To Municipalities Act 11 • 23). A HIE! ncl (Bi.ll ThE! No . A Bill, "An Act To Provide For The Regulation of Motor VE!hicle s Used In The Transportation Of Pers ons Or Goods For Compensation". (BiJ.l No. 1.2). A Bi.ll, "An Act Obsolete And To .l\c::1poa1 CE!rl: .d .in Spent St.at.u t e ~;". (Bill No. 21) A Bi11, "An Act To Rev:ise rhe L a~J Respecting Securities". (BiJ.J. No. 15) . A Bil1, "An Act To Am end T he Dangerous Goods And Thc:1

Summary (Bi11No. 3'7). Transportation Act PJnocrH!clin~~s A ct " . A Bil1, Persons 36). "An Act To Arnencl ThE! Young Off e n c e s A c l " . ( B ·i ll No . A B1.1 1, "An Act To Ai'lll·ncl J"he Members Of rhe Hous e or : As SC::'I'Iibl y (Retiring All owance

s) Acl.., lhe Public Service (Pen sions) Act tlnd The Unifo1nmed ~1ei"ViCE!S Pen sions Act" .- ( B i 11 No . '1·4) . A Bill; "An Act To Arnend The Corporations Act" (BillNo. 53) . A Bill, "An Act To Western Memorial Corporation Act, 194 ·7". 6 4-) . Amend The Ho spi tal (Bill No . A 13'.i1 1, "An Act: To An1encl ·rhe Pr·:inicpa1 Aglneel/l<:!nt:. 1\al:.:iF i.t:•d 13y 'lhr:• Ava1on Tc;!1E!phone Co rnpanv Ac t., 1.938". (BU .l No. l)t~). No. 89 R12 .. .. ....

A 131.11, "An Act: To Arn:::• nd !'"hi':! Buildings Accessibility A c l:, 1 9 8 1'' . ( ( 13 :i. 1.1 No . S 5) . A Bill, "An Act To Arn~~nd fh~1 Occupational Health and Safety Act". (Bill No. 59). A Bill, "An Act To Amend The

Summary No. 6 3) . Proceedings Act". (Bill Mr. Baker: Motion 3 . Mr. Speaker: To moue pursuant to Standing Order 50 that further consideral:.:ion of S~1cond Reading of Bill No. 38, "An Act Respecting The Creation Of Regional Seruice Boards thr9ughout Uw Province". rhis is l:he closure motion and we haue to ask the question. All those in fauour 'aye'. .§..Q.r.!l .. ~ ........ !~ .. Q.!}_.:.._.J~_g.JI!.P e .r..~ : A y e . Mr. Speaker: Those against 'nay'. Some Hon. Members : Nay . Mr. Speaker: Carried . rhis is second reading of that bill which was adjourned.

I do not knot."J t;..JhrJ t;..Jas sp~'aking OJ" whether we had somebody on the other side adjourning l:he d~'bal:e. Maybe the table can inform me? It tAJas adj_ou1nned deba·te. It was the second reading, was it not? Mr. Simms: Yes, second reading. Mr. Speaker: ThE! hon. the Government House Leader. Mr. Baker: A point oF order for a moment, Mr . Speaker. I think now !:.hat we are inl:o thi.s motion we sLart ouer again. It is nat necessari l y Lhe person who c.losE>cl clebal:r::o ancl ~:.o on.

We· dJ"e 1..13 Dec~1Jltber 3, :1.990 Vol XU -..... stal"tinrJ ovt:::J" fl"r::•·,;h n<·I.<J particular (inaudible) 011 l: hi~=· Mr. Speaker: The Government House correct. So it is reading of the bill services . hon. the LE:'i;td~:!l" :is thr:: SE!COnd on regional Mr. Simms: It is closure. Mr. Speaker: Closure . Motion. second I"E!ading of a b.i lJ. , "An Act l'e s pe cti ng The Ci"~'at.ton o·F RE!gional Sei"ViCE! Boal"ds Throuqhout rhe PI"OUince 1'. (Bill No. 38) Mr. Speaker: rhe hon. the Leader' of the Opposition . Mr. Rid10::out: Thank you, Mr· . Speaker.

We would haue thought that a Government which is prepared to move the closure motion for thr:! four'th t:inH:!, I believe ·- Min. Simms: session. The f OUI"th tiiTIE! thiS Ml". RidE•out: - t.he1"e would ha~Je beun at leas!: ':'·'J IIli:;! bJ·'ilc•F introduction to Lhe bi l 1 lhr::oy dl"e co111inq at Lhe l"i'\te now, ~-11''. Speaker, of about once a week. OncE:1 a t,o.Jeek or so Lhe Govrc•l"lllllt:•nt notAJ gives noticl'::' of thE! qag or·dC::!I", the closure motion to get bills thl"ough the House. Ml".

SpE!i'.:ti<E!I", just look for a moment at what has transpired on this particular bill, l:he Regional Seru'icE:'S 13oar'd bill. I beliE!Ue, on thE! arnE!ndnwnt that was put down by our colleague, the Opposition House Leader, there are seven or Edqht speakers left to go? Mr. Sirnrns : YE!S, thel"e di"E! quite a fE!!AI yet. Mr . 1~-:i.cleout : f'Jr·o111 l)l.ll" CdliCU·:; OVC!I" No. 89 Rl3

hel"e, on Lhe amencllnc::•nl-:, t.he s:ix month hoist:, IAJe dl~e clov.Jn t:o seven or eight speakers left to go. ~r --~- Sirnm~: Eight. Mr . Rideout: Eight, is it? Well, that is not very many, Mr. Speaker. When that particular amendment. tAJas disposed of, we would be back to the main motion and I believe we had two speakers who w~1re entitled to speak on the main motion. An Han. Member: That is not true. Mr. Rideout: It is true. We w~'nt thr·ough it this morning, Ml". Spea~er. On the amendment itself, the six month hoist, yes, we had eight people who were left to speak on the amendment. Mr.

Windsor: You will have more speakers now than if you had not introduced the motion. M.r _ _!_ ______ , __ ~ i d_.g_Q .. \:I...t : But once t·: he amendrn~1nt lAJas disposed of this afternoon or tonight, if we w~1re sitting tonight or whatever, if t:h at l-'J<::'rE! to car-ry on, Lhen thE!I"e L\JOI"e ttAJO spE!akel"S L\Jho had not a l r ~,, d cl y s p o k o n , t: h e M u 1n b e r f o r Tor nga t Mountain s and, I beli.r::ove, t-:he Mt':!tnb101r For Gr ee n Bay. lhE!Y arr~! th€~ only ·tv.Jo spE!C·.lkers on th1s side left to speak on the main ~otion itself. Mr.

Speaker, the point I am trying to makr:1 is that this Government is vet"Y, VE!ry quick off the rnat"k to invoke closure- very quick off the mark. What have we seen, Mr. Speaker, on this particular Regional Services bi.ll so far? We have seen three spE!akE·rs ft"orn thE! Covernrnent side of the House - three speakers!

T'he GoVE!nnnrconL spE!nl-: a Lota1 of one hour and fot"l-:y -1-t"Jo 1ninuL:c~s defr::•nclinq a bi .JL Lh<:'tl .. tAr"i.ll L14- Decembur 3, 1990 Vo1 XLI -.... r· a cl 'i c a 1·1 y a 11 . ~::• I" t. 1·: e s L r· u c L u r· (' or- mu ni c i. pal gov E•i"l'lll'li:' n t· Ln Nc!tAJFoundlancl ancl L.abl"aciot·'. f-1' -·orn beginning to und, one hour dnd forty-two minutes. That is what-: defence has buen put into this piece of legislation by the Government. What has been put into it so far· in debatE! in this House by the Opposition? Four and a half hours, Mr·. SpeakE! I", up to today. M r .

S i mrn s : No , u p t o b e f o r E! t h e closure threat. Ml". Rideout : YE!S, J.ast TuE>~;clay . Right? Four d.nd half hout~s up Lo last Tuesday, NoVE!rnbet" 2'/. That is what we had to debate lhis par·ticular b:i11., four and a hd] .f hours. Again, Mr. SpeakE•r, el piece of legislation th at will haue the effect of radically changing municipal gov ern ment in Newfoundland and Labrador. Mr. Baket": You had fiu E~ on Tuesday . Mr. Sirnms: That was after you threatened closure . t\1" . R i cl e o u L : T h a t lAJ <:\ '· a r L r:· I" t h c L: hI" t" a. L o f c 1 o s u r e , 1'-11" . Speak 1:' I" .

Look, thE:! bott.orn 1-:lne 1~, t.h<:·\t . on dn arnendiTIE!Ill:. IAJE• hdVI:' SE•Vtc•n u,·' eight speaket"S lef 'L, and on Lhe main motion we have t:_t ... Jo oLhcH' people who can speak. Th is Gouernrnent. is so anxious to curne into this House and use closure that they do not want to let parliamentary debate take place . Some Han. Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Sirnms : IUghl: on! Shalll!':! on thern. Sharne I Ml". Rideout: up ·- No. 89 Ml ". ;:;peakr::!l", 1 st:.oocl 1n4-

["lin. S'irnms: ~)hi':\tll(' I ::Jharne! Mt. Rideout.: Ml" . ~3pl,!i':\kE!r', I s l .. ood ur-l in this -House, I believe it. 1.-Jas last Tuesday, and I spoke fo1~ an hour on this bill and so did other people, but I spoke for a particular hour rebutting, point by point, a number of points made by the Minister in introducing the legislation. Have we hE!ard an answer from the Minister yet? Mr. Simms: Not a sound . Mr.. Ride!]ut: Not a squeak, Mr. Speaker. He has not raised since. There has not besn an answer. We have only had one hour· and forty-two minutes of Government members trying to defend this bi11. Ml~.

Speaker, it is indefensible that this Government today - four or five hours debate with only six or seven or eight members left to speak on the amendment, two to speak on the main motion, would be so pigheaded as to call the closure motion today. . e1r. ...... _.?J . .l:IJ.l!.l.~: Totally unnecessary. Mr . lhdt:'OU t: unnecHssary . T}1f s bi 'll, say, that. iF tAJe IAJ(:>r'e tonight 1.-Je IAJouJ.cl have run speakers. Mr. Simms: Ri"g h t on! Totally I 1.-Joulcl sil:ting out oF Mr. lhdeou t: So that. Ml~.

Speaker. brings us to thE! quest. ion • we have seen c 1 o sur 1:;! in this House now more times this year than ever used by any government since Confederation. Mr. Simms : In l:.otaJ. since Confeder·a L:i.on . Ml~. lhdeout: In l:.ota1 . 1_15 DecE:Hnber 3, .1.990 Vo.l XLI Not.-J if l.hat. do1::!~; nu t l..eJ I. SOIIlE! thinq. M1~. ~3p~::,akE•l", dbot.ll: b~;:>J t r::!f of thj~; hon. CI"'OIAJcl democracy, if that does not you about ho!AJ they viut~.J and to give time to members of House to d~~bate, then we a11 you the and l:.ell want this have to be pretty dumb and dense indeed, Mr. Speaker. An Han.

Member: A dictato1" (inaudible). MR. Rideout: So, Ml'' . Speake!'', there is a dictal:.or running rampant around Confederation Building. and it rnatb:·r·s no L hoiAJ important the lE!gislation is. Il: matters not whether this Government did not have the intestinal fol"tituciE! Lo br:i.ng in a buclge•t this s~:!ssion as t:l·lE!Y shouJ.d have done. When the Opposit:ion takes advantagE! or tl~:i.E•s to take:! advantage of parliamenLary procedure to debate the lack of fortitude in the Government:. in bringing in a nE!U.J financial pJ.an, they will use closure, Mr. Speaker. An Han. Member: Obstntction .

Ml". rhdeout.: Olntn1cl:.ion, rnv eyeball, Mr . Speaker . An Han. ME!mber: (.Inaud i blE:') . M1~. Rideout: Obst.I"Uct.ion. I ITit::'i.HJ iF this dE!batE! had bE:!en goinq on for a couple of weeks with parliamentary tactics being used to delay the passaqE! o[' l:he bill, maybe the Govel"nrnent HousE:' Leaclr:!l" would have a case of obstruction. But, Mr. Speaker, this GovernrnE!nt has never 1et a Full tJJeek qo by yet without introducing closure on a piece of legislation. Some Hon. Members: Shamel Mr. Rideout : C 1 o '' u I": ·· on Meech Lake, closure on lhe Lo an Gi l I, No. 89 Rl5

c·losur'e on SuppJ.e1nunLar'y Supp ly . An Hon . Member : CJ.osur'e on regiona l government. Mr . Rideout : government. Closure on regional This Government, Mr. Speaker, has no appreciation. I remember in this House in the middJ.e part of the 1970s when the GovernmE!nt of the Day, faced with a Liberal Opposition at the time, used to ha ·Je to sit mornings 9:00 to 12:00, afternoons 3:00 to 6:00, nights f1nom 8:00 to l.l.:OO to accommodate its legislative agenda. Did that Government use closure, Mr. Speaker? An Han. Member: Not once . Mr. Rideout: Not once.

I believe later on in the years. in office there was yes, a use of closure. An Han. Member: On one occasion. Mr. Rideout: One occasion . But. the Government of thE! Day let debate con~inue. And if members tAJantecl to debatE•, tl'wn the Gov'''l"rliiiE!nt made su1~e l:.hat l~he HouSE! tAJas open in t:.he mornJng, it lAJas open :in l:hrc' aftt:!rnoon, :ii: !Alas open at night, and if Lhe Opposition wanted to ' participate, wanted ·to dr:!bate .they could. But is this what this Government does, Mr. Speak~r? Not on your life .

This Government after in the judgment of the dictator himself that enough has been said, orders the Government House Leader to invoke closure. Some Han. Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Rideau !: Mr. Speaker, the Govr:•J"nrnent Housr::• LE>aciE!i" lAIC\S nol:. :in l his 1-1 0 1.1 ~' (' r' I" r,) m 1 ') 'I

r) t 0 .1. ~) '7 9 . He Ll6 DecernbE!r 3, 1990 Vol XLI .. .. -...... . . •i tAla s no l: he I" e , so hE:· :i "· no l. a q o o c1 o n e. t. o L a l k a b o u t \AI h a l~ o p p o r L 1.1 ;1-i L If ~JOVE'I"niTJPnLs g:ivE~ Lo oppos:iL:ions. But when Lhe1 "e t•1as a fiFt :e~::' n member Opposition over here in that period bet.JAJN'n 19'/5 to 19'/9 - I challenge h:i.rn to go ch~:!ck !::hE! records - there was day after day, week after we~' I<. that this House met morning, noon, and night but there was no such th:i.ng as closure.

And the GoVE!r·nrnent jus 1:: sat there until the Opposition ran o u t of o p port u nit i e s and l: hE! n l~ he bills eventually had to pas s. But is that the wont of this GovernrnE!n ·l::? No. An Hon. Member: A co--opE•J"ativE:• Opposition . Mr. Rideout: A co- .. opE•J"ative Opposition. A co-operative Opposition with the House TrJO( 'I::i. ng morning, afternoon, and night, Mr. Speaker. That is co-operative Opposition. fhat was an exalllplt:;! or a Government aJ.lotAJinq thE· Opposition l~o debate as long as it wanted, and wh1=~n thE:!

If IAlE!I"E! finished the debate th~::'n t.he vote IAJould haVE! to be pu ·l::. Th:is is an eXdrnpl(! of i:'l qOV(;'Y'niTit:=•nt l~hat IAli.'llll.S to l:.ake tot .a l contr'o1 or' Lhe t:iJIIC' o F Ud. s H o u s e . 1'-1 r . S p E! a k '' I" • ,Hl d not worry aboul whelher Lhc Opposil:ion have h<:td an opporl:.uwi.l~y to adequate]y do the job For which they were elected. An Han. Member : (Inaudib1e). Mr. Rideout: Mr. Speab:'r, Government House Leader ha s idea of the question that. he asking. He ha s never tried He has had a few night sessions. An Han. Member: (Inaudible) . the no l."' -· it. Min.

Rideout: That is up l~o you, [ say to Lhe Government Hou se J...,eaciE•I". YL)U dl"e Lhe CoVE!I"I'IIIJenL No. 89 Rl6

House Leader, you have the 1nE!~;pons:lb:i · I-i.l .. y Lo buci~Jr::•t and IT1dni''(J('! the l~.i.IIIE! of l·.his Hou~>e. And if you can 1 t do tl:. in a competent fashion then the responsibility is al1 yours. We have to sit, Mr. Speaker, when the Government calls the House. An Han. Member: (Inaudible) . Mr. Rideout: Oh no, what do we do? An Han. Member: (Inaudible). M1". Rideout: Pardon? An Han. Member: (Inauclib1E!). M1". Rideout: so. Oh. I do not think An Han. Member: No, can do it yourselves M1" . Rideout: I no. No. You (inaudible) . think thE! Gove1"nrnent just _gives notice, as I recall it.

I do not rE!Call thE:~ then Government House Leader. Mr. Justice Hickman, as he is now, doing anything only giving notice that when WE' lAJould risE• at 11:00 a.m. we would reconvene at 9:00 a.m . the next morning. An Hon. Member: You don 1 t have to have agreement on that . Mr. Rideout: That is how I recall it being done. An Hon. Member : Do you accept that? Mr. Rideout: That is not a mattE!r of us accepting it. That is a matter of the Government House Leader. leading. Mr. Speaker.

I say to the Government House Leader that it is a much more palatable alternative than using closure IikH oit is ~Joinq out of style. We on]y haul':• i:'lnoLhe1" E:!i(;Jht. '>pedket"~:; 1...1'7 DE!CE!ITlber 3, 1')90 Vol XLI -.... ll:·r·L on l..he a l'll!c!nclrnenl: .. We only have ttAIO 1er·L on the ITI<:-tjn I'J'I£Jt.'·ion. And iF Lhe1"e t"li~s dn exL1"a SE!S~;'ion 01" 'llAIO lAlE' l;.JOUJci ail hdVC::• an opporl:unity l:o speak. And l:hE!n aL the end of the process there would have to be a vote. But that is not the wont of this GovE:~rnrnen ·t. They are not going to do that, Mr. Speaker. Now, Min.

Speake1", that br·ings us to the question: we have tah:'n

part in closure debates now on four occasions this s~~ss:ion. Fou1n occasions thE! CovE•nHr1E!nt havE• had to stoop to the Par1ialflen t.ai"Y 1ou.J of br-inging :in closulnE! to cut off' debate, to cut oF ·F th1?. Opposition. So that brings us to the point of what. tJJe shou1d do. Because that is lAihat is bE:!fOinE:~ us now. We are debating now under the closur-e or'dt::!r or· Stand:in~J Order S2, I b~:!Iieve it is, or 1:.>0, but we are - this debate continues under Lhe gag order. We:~ all a1ne al1owed to speak twenty minutes at a time.

And corne 1:00 a.m. ir· thE!re arE! sti.ll spE!akelns lE!ft, and they have not spoken, then the vat('! must be put. So Uw qut"•st:l.on becomes, Min. Spc:!a.kuin, do lAH:! Fol" the fou1"th t:i.rnH l:h --.ls sc::·~;s:i1)n pa1"Licipate 'in t·:hat k'i.nd oF a si:,tJn? Ther'e is going to I:Jr::· no SU1"PI"iSE! at Lhe end or the process. Absolutely no surprise when all sixteen or seventeen 01" how IT1dny of us ai"E' hE:~rE:~ today on this sj_cle of the House get up and spt:'!ak for twenty minutes, and unlE!SS lAJE~ agree there can 1 t be any adj ournrnent for the suppe1n brE!ak.

So therefore sometime around 8: 30 p . rn. • 9 : 00 p.m. . or' 9 : 3 0 p . rn. tonight .. we lAJLI.l have 1"Un out of spe:~akE!rs. If Lhe Government is go·.inq to be! l:n.Je Lo For·1n, Mr. ~3pt",::tkl~ln, L.ht'Y t'lldY put up on!:' o1" UAJO. ·r hey i'l1dV. No. 89 Rl'l

-.... That is about Lhe r:•xl:ent or lAJhi;\l": Lhey tAd.l .l do on Lhi s gaq or'cler . They might pul up one or two sp~"akers. So, Mr. Speaker, tAJhat do WE"~ do? We could continue to debate the resolul:ion until we Jnun out of speakers, 9:30p.m. or' 10:00 p.m. tonight. But we are after doing that three tim~~s, Mr. Speaker. It does not make any impression on the Government House Leader at all. He does not look for some other alternative to try to break what he considers to be a logjam. He just does the easiest and dirtiest approach of all From a Parliamentary perspective. And that is to give the closure notice.

So, JJJe could decide - every single one of us, as we have done now three other times in this session to debate as long as we are permitted under the rules. Mr. Simms: Depends what they say no1JJ in this debate, (inaudible) . Mr. Rideout: And it depends on what we hear from the Government, Mr. Speaker. If there are responses thal: ought to be madE! to JnE!butta1.s from the other sidE!, lAIC 1.1.1 i ll t: a k e L. h e o p p o r t u n t l: y t o 1n a k e them. I have not . heard lhE! Minister yet respond to l:he points that I made when I spoke last Tuesday.

He has not atbHnpl:l:'d whatsoever in the normal course of debate - not this abnor'mal course of closuJne, but :in thE! normal course of debate - he has not attempted to do it. He is not going to have the opportunity now to close debate, because we are debating under the closure order. So he will not have the normal opportunity of a Minister rising to close dEd::Jate on SE!COnd rE!ading and taking t.hat oppoJntuniL.y to respond to criticisms that come f'l"orn l:.he Oppost l: .ion or r--~"·orn S1 .. 11ne other part or the House. Ll8 Dec.::~mber 3, 1990 Vol XLI ~)o, MJ". ~)peakr:!r', lAJe sh<:'t] l. ~>E:!I:!

IAihc::t t is <::Jo:Lng lo tr·anspil"t::• hei"O Li1:i.~: afl E!l''noon. I a111 not. inc:L"i .nr::•d, Ml" . SpeakeJn, l:o J"Un l:he clock oul: by a 11 of u s p a J" t i c i p a t i n ~1 f o J" LiAJ o n L y minutes on something that is a sham and a farce anyway . Mr. Simms: Unless we are provoked. ~r. ... ~ ..... Rideout_: Unless -.. Lo.Je11, unless there is something to respond to. I am not incli.ned to do that. We have dorH·) it already three times this session. We have debated l:he pr·incip1es of LhE! bills involved as well as tho Government's quickness lo use closure .

We have donE! that, so to do it again Lilith all the speak'e1ns we could put foJ"ward OVE!J" hel''~~, to rne, Mr. Sp~::~aker, se1,!1ns to be getting a bit of a charadE!. It seems to me that the die has bE!en cast, the Government have madE! the decision that they now have in fact invoked thE• closUJ"E! orciE•J", so it does not rnake 1nuch diffE!rE!I'1CE! whether we dJnag it on OJ" whE!thC:'Jn we do not.

If thE!r(o~ are some members on this side lAJho tAJish to speak they are ceJnl:a'i.nly entil:ll'd to a n d t h e y h a v e _ e v ''' J" .1J l" i ~J h l:. t. o speak, but. .I a1n not about t:.o 'JU agonizing and organizing iusl Lo s i t h E! r e f-0 r t h ~~ n e x t F o u r o J" r--i v r:· hours, unL:i] nine Ol" Len o 1c]ock tonight talking about closure, because that is what we have Lo talk about in essence while we are debating the balanCE! of' thr::• time 1eft on this bill. I would 1-:ike to hear from the Ministe~ on a whole range of points that. I in particular raised on Tuesday of last week.

What I did was I WE!nt through the Minister's introductory remarks to this bi.ll and I picked out of thE!ITl lAJhat 1 thought were significant inaccuracies that the Minister u~;ed in :introducing l:he bill, ;:'tnd I h j q h 1 i q h L e cl l:. h e rn i n a h ,_, u J" 1 n n q No. 89 Rl8

pJ"esent.al .. :iun to l:hi<;; Hou~:;e, and s u 111 E• o F 111 y c o J. 1 '''a •::J 1.1 <:) ~; lAJ h o ~~ p o k e afLr::~r· hi<~hJ·iqhl~ecl SOI"IIU ol .. ht:!I"S. 1 l:h".ink it would bE! usef'u1 ".if Lhe Minister would take some opportunity to respond to some of those points that were made the first part of last week. Why is it that the GoVE!rnrnent must have this Regional Services Board Bill when all of the authority it is seeking here in t~his bill is already contained in lhe Municipalities Act? Why ".is it that the Government needs a new piece of legislation giu".ing it authority to do the things it says it tAJanl:s l:o do, tAJh~)n it all"~~ady has that authority under

Part 3 of the existing Municipalities Act? I think it is incumbent on the Minister to tell this House tAJhy. We know there is a major difference between the authority granted the Government in this new bill than the way they have to exeJ"cise the authority in the current bill. We knotJ.J there is a major diffeJ"ence. Under thE! present Municipalities Act the Government, before it could exeJ"cise the authority of

Part 3, would have to have public ht:)arings. rhr:!y lAJOUld have Lo hdVI.' fE!dSibility S tuci"if:)S. 'Thei"E! Wd~> JnandatoJ"Y consultation bE!l~WE!en t.hE! arE!as affected and ll'lE! Depal"tment and lhe GovernrnE!nt, but thr:!\"1,• is nowhere in this piece of legislation that the Government, seeking the sarrtr0 authol"ity, is bound to ca1"ry ou l~ the same pi"ocess. Nowhere, Mr. Speake~r. in this piece of legislation is it mandatory for the Minister and the Department-: to have public hearings.

Nowhere is it mandatory For them to have feasibility studies, and nowhere is it mandatol"Y for th~'!lll l~o hdve consultations with people in the c o ITII n u n i t: i e s i. n l:. h 1:;! a J" 1 ' '" s a f r e c t. E· cl . 1 t h i n k ·i. l.. "i <; ·i n c u rn b "'' n L 1..19 DecE'inb~~r 3, 1990 Vol XLI o n L h <::> M i n i s L e 1~ L o ~:. l d n cl u p a 1'1 ci l:.1:)11 us why he· lAJdnLs that·: kind or:· legislative aut.horiLy. Why does h~~ IAJant it in a tAJay Lhal~ .is so different from the leg".islative authority thi:.~t he already has under the present Municipalities Act? Why does he want that?

He has not ye•t rnade the argument to this Legislature as to the why. There ar•e those that suspE!Ct lhat it is a method and a vehic1E! to perhaps spe•E!d up thE! arnalgarnaU.on process. Well, if that is the case the Ministf::)J" should tE!]J us, Mr. Speaker, but I believe it rea11y is ".incumbent on Lhe Minister to answer the questiuns as to why hE! u.Jants this pir:'C'"' of legislation so badly that thE!

Government is prepared to invoke clos Ul"e to get t t, so badly Luhen you already havr:• t.hr:' same:! type of authority that you are SE!~'kinq hE!l'"'e undrc'ln a Pl"esent Act. of Ud<; Legislature, exc~'pt l~hal:. i.t is a little bit more cumbersome for you to use it. You have to engage Lhe public in the debate. You have to have feasibi1ity studies and publ:i.c hearings. I can see a CovE•l"nrnc!nL l.hdt Jc; in a l"USh, l::hl:.IL those~ J.il . i·lt:• tl"appi.ngs of clernocr·acy n1.iqhl_ be, y o u k n o tAJ , a p a i n i n l: h ~:! I'H:' c k F 1·' o in time to tirne.

But nevertheless, that is the process l~hal:. is HH:•re now, and this bi11 does nothing more only to ask again For that authority but in a way that you do not have to consult or hold heal"ings or do the studies. That is the question, Mr. Speaker, that rnust be answe1ned. I hope the Ministel" lAJi.11 takE! the oppor-tuntty to answer it sometime dur"ing this debate. As I said a Few minul::es ago, if Lho Min:ist.er· clor•s not, then I guess ·Uw r e is not rnu c h lAJe can do.

Wr::• can onlv cont.:·inuP to p o i n t o u t l:. h "' l:. l: h e M "i n i ~; t·. c• I" ~-:; o u •J h 1. t:. h e a u l.. h o r· i t.. v o r L h i :·; 1-1 o u ~. e No. 89 I~ l9

't through closure to get the bill tlwough, but IJJas not pt"ep<:H't:'d at any point, having inLr·oduced t.hE· legislation, to answer thE:' questions as to why it was necessary, why he had to have it, what is so different about this piece of legislation and the statute that is already on the books known as the Municipalities Act that gives you the authot"ity anyway. What is so different about the scene out there that makes this bill absolutely essential and absolutely necessary, Mr. Sp.:~aker?

There rnay be others who hc:.~ve sorn(~! questions l:.hat we 1.o~lill tt"Y l:o g~::~ t. answet"ed over the course of the rest of the debate, Mr. Speaker, but unfortunately the clock is running and twenty minutes does not be long going. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Premier . · Premier Wells: Mr . Speaker, I want to add a few comments to this because of the comments about closurr:~. I IAJant to point out to the House that it was the Opposition lAJho invoked closure, not the GovernrnE!I1t. rhe Opposition decided on closure, not l:he Government. An Han. Memb er: foo] . Sit down! Don' l: be such a Mr.

Speaker: Order, please! Premier Wells: The truth really is a burr under their seats. It gets them so stirrE!d up that they cannot stop - Some Han. Members: (Inaudible). Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Premier WelJ.s : rhey cannot l"eft"a in. rhE!Y --do no l .. IAI<'tn l: to i·ll:!iH' it . rhc:•y haVIo' S l.l• .;h an dV(•J"SiOn l:O L20 DeCE!rnber 3, :1.990 Vol XL.l t·.h(• tr·ul:h cornlnq ou l: that : l:h(•IJ l.r·y l: o s l: o p i t a 11 L he l:. "i. rne . N 01.-.1, i"1 r· . SpE !aker ·, 1E!l : rn.: • put rot ~lAJdl "ci Lhi <; proposition l:o you - l:hat it . .is thE!

Opposition, not thr:• GOVlH 'I'HTIE!nt . that has caused closure. Fn Han. Member: That is nonsense. You are being stupid. (Inaudible). Premier Wells: Having said thal: I have the responsibility to justify it, and if we can keep that noise, that gaggle of geese over there sloiAJed down a little bi l~. I IAJi ll justify -· An Han. Member : Hon. geese. Premier Well;;: Hon . gE!E!SE!. If I can keep that hon. gagglE! of han. geese quietened dolAm a l:i.t.tle bit I will justify the proposition that it ~as the Opposition who decided on closure, not the GovernrnE!nt . . An Hon.

Member: (Inaudible) use your words carefully . Premier Wells: Mt" . SpE!akE!r', l:hE'!IJ did not know how to govern and th ey d o not know how Lo opp ose . rhey have l:o be t.au<:jht how l:o oppose. You se e, Mt ~ . Sp E·ak1:! r, :i.L is one l~.hing For· an Opposition to oppose and stand up and argue against it and have a str ong, forceful, detailed debate on any subject, but it is qu:i.te another for an Opposition to stand up time after time and say we are going to hold up thE!Se bills . WE! arE! not going to allow them to pass, no matter what. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is when closure l.o~Jas decided upon.

WE! did not dE!cidE• it. That is in tht:• recor·d; it is l:.I·Jetne to be seen: 'We are going to hold t.his up and lAJe at"e not qo-Ln<J to a] 1 OIAJ it t.o pd s s -· not on] y tha l:, lAJE! dt"e going to hold llp t·.his bi ll No . 89 R20

-...... and l· .. h-Ls bi "ll <Htci l..h"i. s b"i ll and t•Je are no l:. ~1oj. n~J l.o a] 1 OtAI l:hr::•t:l to pass." NotAl, Mr. Spf~akr:•tA, l:hat is when closure was decided upon, because, you see, we havf~ a responsibility to the people of this Province to make sure that the public business gets done I and we do not let an irresponsible Opposition stop the public business from being done to promote their own political ends I which is what they are doing.

They think they can make gains t.~Jith this, but the people::~ oF this Province know exactly what they are doing. fhey are very much awar·e of what they ar'E• doing. It is no wonder the Leader of the Opposition is now standing on his Feet and saying we at"e not going to talk out this bill or we are not going to talk out the time on the clock. Some · Hon. Members: (Inaud'.ib1E!). Premier Wells: Alright, we will see. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if you just want some idea of how irresponsible this Opposition has be e n I I wi 1 ] g :l v e y o u t. h E! fa c t s and fig u r f:' s t h a t. t>J i 1.1 E! nab 1 e a Fa:lr and full judgement on this. Ml". SpE!akel", we "have bE!E!n in office now 19 months. In two days it wi11 bE! 19 months. 19 months. Too long for the hon. mernbE!I"S but just much, much too short fol" the people of this Province. They cannot wait to extend the term. They cannot wait for an elec t.ion to give us an extension of our time. An Han. Member : Call it now . Premier Wells: Cal] it notJ..J . Yes, we could call it - An l-Ion.

Member : Pu t .IJOUI" rnonC:!.IJ tAJil C:! I" e you I" tno ul:. h 1. <' " · L21 December 3, 1990 Vol XLI Ca l l an election . Pt"errlif:~l" Wt:~l1s: .[ r:an q "i. lJe l.hr:• hon. rnf:!rrtbr:'l" thE! f'i. ~JLil"f:•s. Jus l Jr:! l:. rne get ··- hE!IAE! tJ..Jl':! a1"e. HE!I"E! ·.is Lh1:> latest pol] .. If an E!lE!Ction WE!I''E• held today the results would be this: Mr. Speaker: Order, please! An Han. Member: What has this got to do with (inaudible) . Premier Wells : 67 per cent libE:!ral, 18 pE!I" CE!nl. P.C., :1.11 pel" cent NDP. The whole side would be IJJiped out. Ml".

SpE!akE!I", it. tJ..JouJcl be irrespons':ible fol" us to call an election now. Evet"ybody wou1d l:)(c' on this side of Lhe House and WE· want to maintain an Opposition. Now, Ml". SpE!aker, lr;!l~ mE:• ge t back to the real point of t his debate - my proposition t hat it was the Opposition who decided on closure, not the GovernrrtE!nt. ThE!Y dE!C:i.clr,!d on closure when Lhey announced that there IJ.Jas a certain lis t of bills that they were going to ho1d up. That. is IAJh.E!n t he GovE·rnrnent:. h ad l:. h E• I" E! S p 0 n S i b :i. ] j l~ .1J [·:. 0 b I" i n \] i 11 c l osure.

And I teJ 1 t he House, M 1A . s p re~ a k E• r , a n d [ l. ,:~ l 1 L h E' p u b 1 -L c of l:.his Province, that we will bi"inq in c1osut"O as often as is necessary t o ensure t hal:. we dischat"ge our responsibiJity to thE! public of this Province. No1JJ, if you want, Mr. SpeakE•r, sutne kind of a measure of just. why closure was nE!Cessary, lel: me giVE! it to you. We have been in power just a couple of clays short. of ninetE!en months, Mr. SpeakE!r. And in t hoSE:! nineteen monLhs we have had 111 sitting days, wtt:.h tl99 ·-- notAl, Ml". Speakr:'r, ')00 - sil:.l:inq hout"S.

Five hundred hours and t en rn inu l..r::.s, l..r.1 be PI"(:>C i ~)(!. F ive No. 89 I~ 2 1

hundrc:!d s·it:i ··ing hot .II'' S in l:hose 1'14 days. NotAl, Mr ·. SpE!akc:! r, i.n addiU .on to that., t..ue crc:'al :e•d and put in plac e legislative committees to shorten the time necessary for House debate on bills and to provide for other public discussion. And those committees have had an additional 120 hours of debating time. Now, Mr. Speaker, let's go back and look at the last nineteen months that the hon. Members controlled the Government of this Province. Now lE!t's look at. it . And herE! ar'E! thE! figure•s, Mr·. Speaker. fhey had 216 and one-half hours for a total of sixty-nine sitting days. Mr.

Simms: When? Premier Wells: In months prior to the last general election . the eighteen call of thE! Mr. Simms: We sat seventy .... ·seven days in 1990. Oh, I am sorry that is this year (inaudible). Premier Wells: I am so1nry. The record is very cle~r . That is l::his year, seventy -seven this year . That is what 1 aJll talking about, Mr . S~eak e r . _An Hon. Member: Way to go, LE•n! Premier Wells: NouJ, Mr . here is the record. If at our nineteen months have been in power - Speaker, you look that we Mr. Tobin: How good are your figures? Premier Wells : Now, Mr. Speaker- Mr. Speaker: Oindr: ~r pleaSE!!

Orde1 n pl~:-ase! Order please! Pre111ie1n Well s: lhu hon. MeinbE •r L22 Dec ember 3. 1990 Vol XLI ... "' . 111ay rlo t w Mnt to bec aus e sevE •rely . the tru th be e! l i.t:!I JIO:~ hu1 " U; · _§_a me -~ . .9..n. . .!...._l'!_f?:..!!IE _~.r. .. ?. : (Inaudible) . Premier Wells: lhe figures, Speaker, I can tE!ll you, figures came from the Clerk. U, Loo Mr. thE! Mr. Simms: We got them here too . Some Han. Members : (Inaudible) . An Han. Member: Yes, bE:!cauSE! LIJE' had the nerve to call an election. Premier Wells : NotAl, Lhe hon. MembE-Yr had bE!ttE!r act rE·asonabJy.

I mean, that is not:, that does nothing to his credit nor the credit of this House, l:o have l':hat kind of behavior in the Hou se. And there is no merit in Lhe position, no ju stifica ·Lion for it. It dishonours Lhe hon. Mernber · more than it dishonours anyb ody else, Mr. Speai<E!r. It is a measure of the length to which they will go to cover up their own shortcomings, and what l':hey did, and their · own fai .lu1nes LIJhc :•n t·.hey lAJ e ,~ ~' in Go v E! r n rn e n l , a n d n o lAJ , M J"· . Speakt?.r , Lh eir Fai lu i"t!S dS Opposi tion.

Th ey were a rai lu re as Government, l:.ht.:' Y ar e a bi q::;c:! r failure as an Oppo si l:ion . And l:.he people of this Province know it! Now, Mr. Speaker, these numbers are accurate . I can tell the House thE!Y WE!Ine obt.ained flnorn thr"' Clerks, as an accurate account of what happened. In our la st nineteen months, Mr . Speaker, those are th E! numbers oF days and the nulllbers of hours. We haVE ! had more than U..ui .ce thE! arnount. of l .. trnE' debating in this House l::hal:: the hon. ME!rnbers had t..uhen Uwy lJJE:•r'E! in Government. [n U1c.:• sc:ur1c:• nint.:!l:e~:-n rnon t.h pE•J":i.od.

No. 89 R22 .•

Not,J, PJiin. Speakur, l:.l1i:'l ' l~ is IAJhr:•n C .J. 0 S Ul" E' tAl a ~; ITI i't cl E' n (! C 1':' ~> S a in y , lAI h (! n l .. h e 0 p p o s ·i l-i o n d ''' c ·.i d c:> d L u p u t their political interests ahead of the interests of the people of this Province. This Governrnt::1nt has a responsibility to make sure that that does not happen and I can assure you, Mr. Speaker, that when and so long as it may be necessary, this Government tJJill introduce closure caused by the action of tht::1 Opposi I~. ion eVE!lny time that it is necessary. They have had now ten hours of debate - An Han. Member : Not enough .

Premier Wells: At least, ten hours of debate on this bill! Mr. Simms: Wow, whoop - de-doc! Premier Wells: At ~he very least -~-!:..:...?..!J!I_l!.l.?.. : W h o o p- d e ·- d o o ! Premier Wells: .. _ Mr. Speaker, ten h_o,Lil~-s-of-deb·a-t E! 0 n t hi S b i Jl . Mr. Simms: Nine hours . Premier Wells : In the ordinary rout i ne of t h ings one could expect any bill that required a significant amount of attention - Mr. Simms: HotJJ tnuch contr·ibu Lion ·:From yo u r side? Premier Wells : - one would expect, Mr. Speaker, that a whole day might be USE!d, a lAJhole th1ner:1 hours. ·Perhaps, Mr.

Speaker, two full days, a whole five hours might be used in debate on the principle of such a bill as this. NotJJ, this Mr. do SpE!ai<E!ln, in addition to not fol"gE! 't that. thE• legislative Committees did a 1 ot of lAJOlnk and had a 1ol .. oF' clr:•bal:.e on l:his 111. 11 L23 December 3, 1990 Vol XLI Not.\1, Mr. ~)peak,:•tn, L·.hc·tnl:' IJ.J~t·; so rnuch :i.nl:E!I"(:•sl.. ancl so ntuch concel"n about Lhe d(:!bat-.e, I h;'tiJI':• hC:!J"e a t: I" 6tn s c I" i p t of N o iJ e rn b e In 2 'I s .l. l:. l. -L n ~I , l~here tAJas so tnuch inl-:E!I"(:!st in L.his that thE! hon. the ME!ITtbr:~ln for· St.

Mary•s - The Capes got up and told a series of fivt::1 jokE!S and USE!cl just about all of his time telling jokes on ·this bill. Now this is what they are usinq up their t.:LrnE! for. IF they arE! :inl.:elnes'l:.E!d :i.n the peoplE! of t.h-.is Province, Mr. SpE!akt::1r, and intE!tnestE!cl in th1:! system of reg-.ional government that we al"E• propos:inq, u..Jhy do they not confinE! their l~.i1nE• l~o debating "il instead of wasti.ng it telling jokes as they did in the House. And they stand now and cry because closure is invoked. Some Hon. Members: HE!ar, hear·! Mr. Rideout: We invokE!cl closure, Mr.

Speaker, because it was br·ought on by thE! actions of Lhr::• Opposition in holding up the business of the people of th:is ProvincE:' and we, Mr. SpeakE:11n, have a rr:~sponsibility to t.hr:• pE•ople of Lhis Province t:o E!nSutnr::! l:.hat thaL cl o E• s n o t c o n t ·i n u r:• a n d t-.. h a l.. tAle ~J (:' l: l~hE! busin1::•ss ol" l_hE! Pt"uv t nc''' cJ,)n,:• as c•xped:it:ious·ly and a~; r-aoil"]y ancl as qu:ick1y as tAJe can, so i'tS Lo cut.. the cost to the people o r Lh i s Ptnovince. Dc1 not Fol"'JIC!t, Mtn. SpE!akE!r, the cost oF I<E!eping th:is House open every day while Lh~ hon. rnE•rnber For St-..

Mary•s -- Thr:1 Capes stands and tells jokes at public expE!nse. An Hon. Member : (Inaudible). Premier Wells : That is right . Now, Min. SpeakE!ln, tJJE:' hiHJ'' a rE•sponsibi1ity to l:.he taxpayE!I"S to l:'nsutne l:.hi'it. lAIC conduct th1•i1" bu'> "'i.ness lAJe lAJ'i j "J. No. H9 in d PI"OP('I" r · a~;hoion, C:-incl nol~ a.II<)Lu dn ii"I''C'Spons Lb le R23

,,1nd incolnpel: l:•nt. Oppost l:.iun Lo t hI" OlAJ US 0 f~ f' L he l"a'.i.l . When il ·:. is necessary, closure. somebody closure, Speaker, t!JE • IAI'i 1] iniJOk<-:1 Now, Ml ". SpE!akE=Jr, asked us to justiFy I suggest to you, Mr. it has amply been done . Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker: The han. the Member for Mount Pearl . Ml". Windsor: Mr. Speaker. what a pathetic attempt to try to cover up the dictator 1 s actions once again. What a silly and stupid attempt, Mr. Speaker, to justify the fact that this Governr:-JE!nl: . is unwilling and incapable of defending thei~ own legislation . Some Han.

Members : Hear, hear! Mr. Windsor: I have never seen such a disgraceful display of antidemocracy . in the history of the British Parliamentary system, Mr. Speaker. as t!Je are seeing here today - that this Government who are bringing in a piece of legislation which muzzles municipalities ·in l:he Province t.·\n d in orclr"!l" to clo so, lhPy ai"E! bi"inqing in closLwE• to muzzle LhE! people 1 s HouSE! of As se mbly. That. is what. we al"e seeing here today, Mr. Speaker. What an admission of failure!

That is tAJhat WE! just heard frorn the Premier, in his attempt to try to blarne closure on the Opposition; what an admission of his own failu~e to be able to manage the business of this HouSE! and to get legislation through this House of Assembly. Now, Mr. Speaker, we saw rhursclay and Fr·iday - and Government House Leader stood his p1.ace on· Fr·tday 1norninq on Lhe i. n dnd L24 Decernbe1" 3, 1990 Vol XLI .. S d i d lAJ h i'l t i.'l Cj I" I' a l:. C 0 l.l p 1 (! l l f ( ! ,'\ y S il .. has been. Wr:~ have cl1lnC ~30ri1 C logislation. We haiJ:c· hi:\cl s~o111E~ co- ·operation.

WE! have got.t.r:•n LE!I 'l or fifteen bills through l:he House of Assembly. That is what happens, Mr. Speaker. tAJhen you manage the business of Lhe House properly. But when you come into the House of Assembly with the dictatorial attitude that the Premier has, he can harcl1y E!Xpect - and before the Premier runs away - when he says that the Government has a responsibility to represE•nl the pE!OplE!, I suggest l:o the Premier and Lhe Governm~ont, Mr.

Speaker, it is the Opposition 1 s role to represent the people, to represent the twenty peop1e who came befor1 ?. the Legislative RevietJ.J Committee unanimously against : this bill, to represent all the oLhc>r municipalities as represented by the Federation of Municipalities who arE! against this bi11, that is representing the pe ople, Mr : Speaker, not br·inging in clos UI"E!, not standing in your place For twenty minutes and rE·fusing to even address the bill. That is what the• Premier has donE!.

ThE!Y have not evE•n <JOI . l:hu inl:c'" sl:.ina l F o l" L i l: u de to cl c fen c1 l h r:• j 1·· OtA II'I h'gislat.ion. An Han. Member : rhey do no l: understand . Mr. Windsor: They do noL understand. They do unclers tand I disagree with my colleague. I understand where he is corntng from. They understand Ful1.y and we understand what they are trying to do here; they are taking unilateral authority for themselves . The Leader of the Opposition pointed out Vt:!ry clearly, Mr. ~;peakE!r, that: Lhei"E:' is onJy on('' L h L n g d o n "' b 1J l 11 ·i s p 1 ('' c c o r-- No. 89 R24 ·

l.eqoi.s1atoi.on. r:t. does noL qive poLuel~ to Cl"eat.E! l"E!q :iona1 counc-:i.J s, it cl o e s not g i v ''' p ot.,Je r to c l" u c:d: e r·egiona1. sE•l"Vict::~s, the only potAIE:!l" it gives is a power to do so without public hearings and feasibility studies. An Hon. Member: That is right . Mr . Windsor: All it takes away is the voice of the people and the councils. And this message needs to get out clearly, Ml~. Speaker, that l:.his Government is taking upon its elf, the Cabinet and thE!

Minister, unilateral authority to dictate what regions will be, what seruices can· be taken away, grabbed and stolen away from municipalities, what assets can be taken away from municipalities. In fact, Mr.Speaker·, Government lAJi.11 have the opportunity, the right and the power to turn municipalities into nothing more than tax collt=~ctors for them. They can put a whole range of services under thE! auspices of a Regional Council, which they can establish.

It doe 's not matl:.er if thE!I "t'! is a regiona1 aul:hority or region a 1 co unci 1 in p 1 c;l c E· n OIAI, t h '"! y 1: a n o v e r nt1 e a 1.1 of t h a t cHl d bring in a whole new structure. Without consultation, without feasibi1ity studies, without public hearings, they can put it in place and they can turn over all authority to that council. -And not only that, Mr. Speaker, they are going to appoint the council and they are going to appoint the chairman . So to whom u.Jill the council and the chairman answer?

Not the people, not the people's House, not t.o an election th ey do no t haVE! to go and be elected - they answer only to the rnast.er hilll~;e1f, Mr ·. SpeakPr. That i s a I 1 l h t:• y a n ~:: tAl o r· L o . ~"' ~~ . L25 DecernbE•r 3, 1990 Vol Xl..l ~3pE)akul~, 'iF t:.hat i,~ , nol l~.axal :.i .on without representation then -I hav e neVE!l~ suen 'it. Bec<HISE! t.hal- '.is precisely what it will be, precisely what it is, Mr. Speaker .

These regional boards will have all power; ; they do not answer to the people, they will be given the right and the responsibility to operate regional services and to assE!SS USE!r cornrnunities. Tht::~y do not even haVE! to send out a tax bill, they do no l~. have a right to, they do not hav<::~ the potAJE!r to send out a tax bil1, thE!Y do not. haVE! to exp1ain t.o a citiz1:!n tJJhy Lhey received a bill in the mai1 for taxes. All they have to do is tell the municipalities, here is what you will pay this YE:'ar -·- no consultation with the municipality, they tAJill t.e11 it. What that breeds first of al1, Mr.

Speaker, it breeds im!Fficiency it brr:~eds inefficiE•ncy. A municipality which has to tax thE! people directly anstAH :•rs to l:hE! people both at the election ·t· Lrne and in the tax rate that thE!Y have to set to . raise revenues. This structure wi11 not have to answer, Mr . Speab!r. rhE!Y can be as er ~fic.l.c:•nl:. dS l.l1::!y wish to be and a11 they have to do is t~:!ll t:.he 1nunicipa] i tiE'!S, ht:o,~o is lAJhat you will pay mE!. NolAJ qo find the money the best way you can. In other tAJords, you tax thE! people.

They u.li]l be tel1ing the rnunicipali ties u.1hat the tax lE!Vel should be in that municipality and they do not answer to anybody fol~ it except this Government. It. is a ·most undt:'rnocratic systE:'ITI, the ~ost undemocratic piece of legislation ever introduced inlo any Parliament .. It is, in Fact, a serious and a direct threat to mun:i.c· .i.pal Gover·nrnent in Lh.i<; Province! a di.r':: •ct l:.hl·'l'dl .: t:.o No. 89 1~2 5

municir~J Province . CovE! r· ntn f:' n t. in this Now, Mr. Speak E!r, thl':! Minis l:.er said in his fE!W rE!rnarks that the legislation would allow Government to bring communities formally together in situations where we cannot achieve amalgamation. Now therein lies the secret to this, Mr . Speaker - therein lies the secret! The Minister has already had to admit publicly that his amalgamation proposals have been a dismal failure, an absolute, di smal failure.

It !Alas all going to be ·done within a six month period and hE~re \AlP are, nineteen months later, and he managed to get two municipalities to combine, Grand Fal1s and Windsor, only by the skin of his teeth, and only because it made al l kinds of sense and everybody out there wanted it anytJJay; it made all kinds of sense, and we do not have any problem with that. They promised them money which he backed down · on. He tnisled them in to ama1garnating, Mt ~. Speak er, is wh at. I should say .

What. , I sugges t to you, w e ar e going to se e h ere is that und er this power, thi s absolute pow er· given to the Mini ster by this legislation, he will create regions in areas where he could not get l:he amalgamation he asked for because the people do not want it, and if people do not want it, it is not going to work anyway. But the Minister does not care about that .

He is now going to create a reg ion and give that regional coun cil all the pow ers the enlarged municipality would have, so that . th f'! rnun :l.cipalit:l.es tAti.ll be leFt tAlith no ting but caretaker du ti.e s and th e re sponsibility to raise th e to 'itnpose l:.axation, rrt O 11 '.i (• S I" E'' q Ll 'i I" E' cl t 0 1_26 Dec ember 3, 1990 Vol XLI ·- opt::>r'aLe UH:' SE! l''f:'qiona1 counci J.s. The qu estio n we have to ask 'is why ITIU S l: the Mini s tE!r Fc: ll lOIAl thi s? Why is hE! so intN1l, why is t.h10• Government so intent on follotAJing this course of action?

Whc1t dOE!S the Minister want From this legislation that is not in the existing legislation? It is clear, Mr. Speaker, that the existing legislation provides for the creation of any kind of regional struc ture that is appropriate. It requ ire s Feasibility stud ie s and public hE!arings. The pE!OplE• tTIUS L tAicH1l ·it. and the• rnunicipalit i ,~s ltlust \Alanl it. All this lE~gislat.ion ciOE! S is provide an opportunity for· it to happen against thr:' wisi'1E'S oF Utr:! communities and the people involved. NotAl, Mr.

Speaker, tAle haVE ! regional services in rnany area s . of L'.he ProvincE!, but mor ·e so in th e t~dlrH1 region than anyt.uhE:'re else in Lhe ProvincE!. LEd~ mE! use as an example the city oF Mount Pea1~1, which purchases regional servi ces Fro~ various groups. It works tAlell, so th E:! Mi nis LE·I~ cannot s Lan d and cll"<]u e Llvd: hE• n(•••ds l.hi s } ,:~ gi s lat i.o n in or det " t.o pr·uv'i.cir:- regional servi ce s. We have had regional ser vice s f or fifte en years in this r0~gion. Long E!I'', .in fact. Wr:! hav e had a rE!gional fit"E :• department for many, many ye ars opet"atE!d by LhE!

Department of Provincial and Municipal Affairs, formerly operated by Lhe Departmt:.~nt of Justice. It is in effect a regional service own ed and operated by the provin c i.al Governm ent. That is pr ec ise ly what it is . We have a regional water supply built and developed by the Pt~ov ·i.nce <:·1nd no1~1 oper·a l':.i"d, I be]:i_t:•vE:•, by Me l.I"O Boat"ci, pl"· uv: iclinq No . 89 R26

a regional water supply to the city of St. John's, the ciLy oF Mount PE!aiAl, ConcE!pt:i.on Bay ~1outh, Paradise, Ktlbr·ide, l:hE! Goulds, and many other areas, each municipality paying for service, paying for the purchase of the water they use. We have a regional busing system operated by the city of St. John's, the St. John's Transportation System, Mr. Speaker, selling service to outside municipalities. We have regional trunk sewers built by the Province, fE!cleral/provinciaJ trunk seliJt~l~s, operated by St. John's Metro Boar·d, and not by the city of St. John's. as onE! hon. member would have us believ~~.

WE! have a regional poJice department operated, again, by the Province, the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary. Mr. Speaker, in the case of the city of Mount Pearl I liJi11 just quickly quote you a couple of numbers.

The bus service costs the city of Mount Pearl $355,000 a year; the tAJatE'I" supply cost.s $'732,000 a yuar; trunk S(~tAJeiA assessments $217,00; the fire ck•parl:lill:•nt ~1>1, 8LP, 000 a yedl" ·- it has been recently suggested that it is going l:o qo to $2 111illi.on this year; solid waste disposal $532,000 a year - $3,206,000 a year paid by the city of Mount Pearl to purchase regional services from various authorities. Not just from one group, but from various authorities. It represents 22.9 per cent, I might add, of their total budget of $13 million - 22.9 per cent of thE• budget purchases regional services.

So how can anybody argue that we need this new piece of legislation to create reqi .onal sr:~I"V:iCr::!s? 'T'hr::• fact. is, tAle do not. J'hlc'l"l'' is not.h·inq in L27 D€:!cembE•IA 3, 1990 Vo1 XLI this J.egislation thclt the e~ist.ing Act. . i,:; nol~ in Mr. Speab:!r, it 'is undemocratic piece of I have ever seen. I call a vote on it. l..h(;' 1110 s l: J.e~rislati.on sugges l:. we An Hon. Member: Hear hear! §9.1!!~ _ ___!j.Qfl .. ~ ..... J'.! .. ~_!!L~?. .. ~T .. ~. : Q u e s L i. o n ! Mr. Speaker: Order, please! Are we ready for the question? Some Hon. ME:~mbers : Questton . Question. Mr.

SpeakE!r : All thos(~ in favou1" of thE! motion? Some Hon. Members: Aye . Mr. Speake In: Ag<~inst? _§_Q.!IL~.: ..... t! .. 9.. .. 1J ... : .... --~-~.ID.Q.?...I.~--~ : N a y . Mr. Speaker: In rny opinion, thE'· 'nays' have it. Some Hon. Members : Hear, hear! MIA. SpE!a k er:_: Oindel", pJ ~">d"' 1:• I Oi"di::'IA, p1(~ase! Division. Division Mr. Speaker: Is the House rN1dy for the question? Some Hon . Members : R€:!ad y. Those in favour of p1ease rise: the rnot.·ion Mr. Sirnrns : Lucky, lucky, lucky . r h ,,, hon l_h(• M"i n i ~:. L e 1A o 1'. No. 89 R2'/

Fisheries. the han. the Minister of Socia"l S e rv~ices . the hon. lhE• Minister of Works. Services and Transportation, Ml ". Hogan, Ml" . R e i d • f"' r . Rams a y , l: he h o n . L he PrE!Sident of the Counci1, the hon. the Minister of Health, Mr. Walsh, Mr . Noel, Mr. Penney, Mr. Barret·t. the hon. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, the hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affail''S, Mr. Grimes, the hon. the Minister of Finance - . !'1f_,_§J .llll!l_~ : No • y o u g e t o u t ! Some Hon. Members: Out! Out! Mr.

Simms: You 1 re not allowed in . .~.r. __ . __ S p e a ~ .. §! . .1: : Order, please! Order, pleasE!! The hon . the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations. the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy, Mr. Murphy, Mr. Short, Mr . Langdon . .~.!:.!.-. Spea_li_§! _ _r: Those against the motion please rise: rhe hon. the Leader of the Mi ". Hew1r:•tt. Mi" . Opposition. liear'n. Mr . Do y l e , M r s . V erg e , r.ll r . Sirnms, Mr. Windsor, Mr. Ml". HoddE:'r', Powel". R. AyliAJarcl, Mi ". N. Tobin, Mr. Woodfoi"d, Mr '. GrE!E!ning, Ml" . Clerk (Miss Duff ): Mr. Speakl.':<r. 1 ayes 1 , 22, 1 nays 1 , 13. Mr.

Speaker: carried. I declare the motion Mr. Baker : Second reading. Mr. Speaker: Second reading of this bill? Mr . Baker: Yes . 1..28 DE!Cernber 3, 1990 Vol XLI 0 n mo l: ion , a 13 .i1 l , 11 An A c L Respecting The Creation or J\,:-gional Sei"ViCE! Boai"ds l'hrouqhouL ThE! Province 11 , rE!ad a second t:.~i.III IC' . ordE!r,?.d referred l:.o a Cornrrl'itl:.eo of' the Whole Housr:,, on tornorr·m~oJ. (BillNo. 38). Mr. Simms : A point of order , Mr . . ·--.. ·- Speaker. Mr. Speaker : The hon . thE! Opposition House Leader, on a point of order . Mr . Simms: Just clarification, what IAJas H. we voted on on Division?

Fo1" just Some second it? Hon. Members: We voted on reading of the biJl, tAJasn't Mr . Simms : So it was already done. Mr. Baker: Yes. but. thE! n:!adiw:J wasn 1 t done . Mr. Simms: No . But you cUd no L read another rnotion, that l:he bi.11 now be read a second ti.rne? Mr . Baker ~ fhat is right. !'he reading had to be done . Mr. Baker : MoL.:Lon one, Ml" . Speaker . On rnotion, itself into on Supply, Chair. that l:he 11ouse resolve Committee of the Whole Mr . Speaker lef't the Mr. Chairman: Order, please! Shall the resolution carry? Mr. Simms: Mr . Chairman, it:. wouJ.d be nicE• to know tAJhat it is.

Co1Jlcl sorn~=!body From th~=! GoVE!I"nlTIPnl.. side explain what it is? Ml". Cha:irrnan : The hOI'I. [-_ hr::· No . B9 R28 ...

Minister of Finance . Dr.__illcheQ : Yc!s, Mr. Cha:ir·rnan . This BiLl. 2 i.s fot~ supplE!ITIE!nlat"Y supply, and it is di?.'ta:ilE!d here. It is for the special warrants that we brought in at the end of last spring totalling $41,747, 800. For han. members I will summarize these special tJJarrants. One lAJas $21 million, a special warrant for a special lump sum payment into the pooled pension fund on behalf of the teachers' pE.~nsion plan; another was a special warrant for $605,500 for consultant services relative to the Hibernia negotiations; another one was - Mr. Baker: A point of ot~der, Mr . Chairman. Mr.

Chairman: rhe hon . the a Government House LE•ader, on point of order. Mr. Baker: Mr . Chair·rnan, thE!re was a mistake in procedure in terms of getting into the Committee on this particular bill, in that the MessagE! From His Honour tJJas not rE•ad. So l lAJOndet~ iF \,J,Jic~ could t~evet~t. t:.o t:.he Chair and stat~t: Lh.i.s proceclut~e ov~C•t" ancl gE!t the Message From His Honout~? An Hon. MembE!r : (InaudiblE!). Mr. Baker: Yes, to the Speaker . Mr. Chairman: Do you move that the Committee rise? Mr. Baker: Yes, so we can gEd: back into this properly.

On motton, that thE! rise, report progress leave to sit again, Mr . returned to the Chair. Committee and ask Speaker Ml~. Spt'a I< E• J:: rhe hon. M(!lttb'''l~ 1-'ot~ L29 December 3, 1990 Vol XLI [-l(;•JJ.evu,::•. Ml~. Chairman . - ---- ·---n --·-Cornrnittee oF consider'E!d l:hE! referred I have Mr. Spt'aket", L.hE! lrJhoJe rnattc•rs t.o directed rrtE! [_hE! h a'.! c~ l~ h etn report progress sit again. and ask leave to to On motion, report rE!Ceived and adopted I Committee orde1"ed to s i. L again presently, by leave. Mr. Baker: Mr. SpE!aket~, Motion 1 . Mt~. Speaker: Mo-t:Lon 1 . ThE:! hon. thE!

Minis LE•l" of Finance . Din. Kitchen: Mr . SpE!aker, I lArish to infot~m t:he House Lhal- · I have received a rrw_ssage from l-1-.is Honour the lieutenant-Governor. Mt" .

Speai<E!r : I, the Lieutenant-Gouernor of the Province of NelAJFoundland, tt"a·nsrnit supplementary estimates oF sutns required for the Publ:Lc Service of the Province for thE! yeat" ending thr:~ 31st day of Matnch 1990 by lAJay of supplementar·y supply and in accotndancE• lAJ:i.Lh t.he pr'OV'is:ions or" Lhe Const:.it:.uLion net of 1807, r 1~ e c o tTl\ n lo! n d t. h c ~; r:• e ~; t_ :i 1 n a 1:. e ~:. l·. u 1. 1-1 1:' HOUSE~ of Asst~inbly. (sgd) ............ . Lieutenant-Governor. The hon. the M:i.nts let" of F-inanCE! . Dr. Kitchen: Ml".

SpE!aket" I I rnove that the message togethE!r lAJi th Lhe amount be referred to the Committee of Supply. On rnoti.on, that thE! House l"E•solve itselF inl:.o Cornrni.Lt:eE• of Supply l:.o consider thE! rnussagE! of H'i.s Honour the Lieutenant - Governor, Mr. Speaker left: the Cha'i.r . No. 89 r~29

Committee of Supply Mr. Chairman: Order, please! Resolution That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the granting to Her Majesty for defraying certain expenses of the Public Service for the financial year ending the 31st day of March, 1990, the sum of forty-one million seven hundred and forty-seven thousand eight hundred dollars ( $4-1 1 '7 4 7 o 8 00) , Mr. Chairman: The hon. the Minister of Finance. Q_r _:_ __ . .!S_:ij~,-~_b..§! __ Q_ : T h a n k y o u . M r . Chairman.

I want to say a few words about this bill, which is basically a s urnrnary of the special warrants that we brought in last spring.

The first lAlas a special tAiarrant of $21 million for a special lump sum payment into lhe pooled· pension fund on behalf of the teachers' pension plan; another was to the Executive Council, a special warrant For $605,500 for consultant services relative to Lhe Hibernia negotiations; one to Finance for $150,000 For the commission of enquiry on pensions; another for Legislature of $325,000 for implementation of the recommendations of the Morgan Commission on remuneration to Members oF the House of Assembly; a special warrant for Forestry and Agriculture of $1,274,800 For f-orest firE! suppression; a special warrant of $1,'715,000 for the Youth Ernplo yrnent 5t:rate~H Prog rarn; and t h r E! e tAla r ran l~ s for Jus l:. ice totalling $6,871,500, one for various s0lary accounts of L30 Dec<:•rnbc:•r 3, 1990 Vo1 XLI $3,356,000, I~C MP bui .ldi.il<JS ~; l • 2 4 7 • 000 I t h (!

Hugh<::!~; R () y d] Co1nrnission ~~96 1:>,•:)00, I..<::>•Jd.l Ai.d !1>'1~>6,000; a special lAliH;r·ant. f"OI" Municipa1 Affairs For $560,000 l:.o couer the accumulated deficit of the Canada Garnes Park Commission, a special war'l"ant of $896,000 for Municipal Affairs to provide for planning and design work for a number of water and SE•wer systems in Labrador under federal-provincial agreE!I.nE!nts; and finally, Mr. Chairman, a special warrant of $8, 3 50, 000 l:o cover social assistance payments $8,000,000, and salary costs For the St. John's Youth Centre of" $350,000. Mr.

Chairman: The han. the M<::•rnber· for Mount Pearl . Mr. Windsor: Thank you, Mr . Chair·rnan. fh<::'r~;! is not a groat deal that. can be sa:l.d about th::i s particular bill. It is a s traightForwar·d bil -l to cove1n the special warrants, the Lieutenant-Governor's warrants issued last yC:1ar. H. is interesting to note, having :tisb:'ned l:o the Pr·ernier's lecture about lAJasL-.i.nq t.hE! l..-:illl<::' of - l.he House and all l:he I"C!St of it:, l!'c1.L fii"St of· a]1 th<::•y rnakE! a n1<:·~;s or Lhe procedure lo get int.o Comrnit:lee, Mr .

Chairrnan, and then we have to spend l:.irne d ea1 i ng tAli l~h rnoney that was spent last y(:•<H' -.. this was the last fiscal year. These are:1 spE!cial wai'Tants fr'OII'I last year. Now the Premier is saying that we have to have closure on the Regional Services Bill, but we still have these routine matters that should have been cleared up last spring. Last June, Mr. Chai.rrnan, l:.hLs pie c E• of legis la l .. ion t'1as inLI"Ociucecl t:o L:hE:• House, El.-l-11 No. 2. r-hlo! COVI''I" ''Iliii~)I1L r:·OI"\]01 .. L.o br·i.nq No. 89 r~3o

l:hal:. onr:! in, I qur:~ss, l:.h:O! sa:l1(~ as t h E:! y d :i-d t:. h c::! l._o a n 13 ~i. ·1 1 . T he y aliTtost For"qot that i:'tnd all these othe:n th·ings. It cou1d haVE! bec::~n brought in l:he spring, if the Premier wasn't so anxious to go running away, if he wanted the time left to deal with bills such as the Regional Services Bill. An Han. Member: (Inaudible). Mr. Windsor: A Loan Bill he brought in closurE! on ·- there are Four bills so far he:~ brought in closure on. You talk about incompetenCE:! in managing t:he House of Assembly. On .motion, resolution, carried. On motion, schedule, carriE!d .

On motion, enacting clause, carried. Mr. Baker: I moue that the Committee risr,~. report progress and ask leave to sit again. On motion, that the rise, report progress leave to sit again ·, Mr returned to the Chair. Committee and ask Speaker, Mr. Speaker: for Bellevue . The hon. thE! ME=!rflb(=!t" Mr. Chairman: Mr . SpeakE:'r, l:he Committee of the Whole have considerE!d thE.~ matters to thc:~m referred and have dirE!CtE!d me to report that they have adopted a certain resolution and recommend that a bill be introduced to give effect to the same. On motion, resolution rE•ad a first and second timE•.

On rnotton, a Bill, ''An Act For Granting To Her Majesty Certain ~)l.ll[IS or· Money FOl" Deit"ay:i.ng Ul DE!CE:~ITtber 3, 1990 Vol XLI -..... C e l" t- a i n E x p E! n ~; e s 0 1: r h rc! P u b 1 i c s E! :·'vic E• F o t" The rind n cia J Y e <:·\ 1" Endinq lhE! Thir"ty·-·Fil"~'; l:. Di.'ly 01 March One Thousand Nine Hundred And Ninety And For Other Pur--poses Relating To the Public Sernvices", read a first, second and third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. Mr. Baker: OrdE!r 19 1 Mr . Speaker. Mr. Sirnms : On a point of ordc:!r, Min, Speaker . Mr. Speaker : A point of or·de:n .

M r . s i rnrn s : T a 1 k about an a :i. r· of co--operation. G~::~ner·ally speaking, the Government House Leader will indicate to rne in advance what legislation he intends to bring in, and a11 the rest of ·H., and hotAJ WE! intE!nd to pi"OCE!ed. I had no indication from him that l:.his would be the next piece of Legislation, following the conclusion of the debate on the Regional Services Board.

And, of course, he should have been IAJE!J.l aware of the fact that simply because there is closure on a bill it does not necessar·ily nwan t.hat: t h e d e b a t:. r:! o n c J. n ~., u I" e tAl oi ·1 l c i'll'' I" _11 on For SE•IJUn orn ui.<Jhl: hoUJ"~;, :LL: can conclude short]y. So he shouJ.d, pc:!r'haps, hi:=tV(;! been be t. tr:'l" prepared For that. There is no other particular piece oF legislation there with which he woUld likE! to proce<'!d, l:hat would bE! of more importanCE! or" of more urgency, I suppose, at the moment? That is the question. Mr . Speaker : ThE! hon . thE! Government House Leader . Mr.

Baker : To that po:int of order, Mr. Speaker. As the Opposition ~louse Leader tAH:O:ll knotAIS, Lh1:> lc:•qislai·ive pldns i:'llnr:'! J n p 1 ace an cl 1·1 d v t=> been :in p l <:·\ c ,,. No. 89 1n1

for' quoi t:.e sorno t::i.rnH. There have l:rnen a nurnbHr · oF bills on Lhl~ OrdE~r Paper', a1l of lAJh<i.ch at any qiven point in time could be called. He also recognizes the fact that there are certain bi1ls that have bE:~en passed through Committees; the Committees have already considered thern and given approval or disapproval and all this kind of thing. I have indicated to hirn in the past that I intend to call legislation that has been dealt tJJi th by the Review Committees beFore I call any other type oF legislation.

Whether the Opposition House Leader paid attention to that or not is a totally different matter. It had been indicated to rne that the Opposition was going to hang tough on the original bill today, but they showed a co-operative spirit which I was glad to see and I am surprised to see, now that the Opposition House Leader is back. We got into this legislation a little quick~r than had been anticipated, but the point simply is that I have told the Opposition House Leader we will deal with the bills that h~ve been dealt with by ConiJnittees.

I lAJnuld loi.kc' to inform hi .m notAl that Bi11 No. 11 has been dealt with by the CornrnittE·E~. that Bill No. Ll6 has ber:'n dea1 t u.Ji th by the Comtni ttee, and, in eff'E~ct, Bi].l No. 25 has been dealt with by the Cornrni ttee. So these arE! sorne bi11s that havE~ · been dl':'a1t tAJith by the Legislative Committees that I can caLl at any point in time. Mr. Speaker: The hon. the Opposition House Leader. Mr. Simms: I 1-i.stened carE!fuJly to the words of lhe Government House Leaclr:~1n and they do not n;! f 1, r:• C '[:: V (' In y I 1'1 1.1 C h S i l'rt i 1 d.

I" "i l:. y l 0 tAJ h a t. h e ~, d i cl o n I' I" i cl a 11 , tAl h e n 1 tAl i't ~; L32 December 3, 1990 Vol XLI -... n o t t n l: h (! H o u s e , lAI h (' n h u s a .i cl c\ n cl I quot:r::~ From Hans<:u'd, 'I kind of shuddr::!r to L.hJnk of lhc• fact t..haL L he 0 p p o s i l:. :ion 1·1 o us ''~ L e <'~ cl ''!I" tAli 11 bE! back on Monday. I ar11 hopoi.ng that will not have an effect:. on the:~ air of co-·operation.' Is it any wonder. Mr.

Speaker. that t/JE! would perform thE! parliarnE!ntary miracles that we pE!rfor'rned today, such as getting the GovernmE!nL to lose a vote in the House and having to rush to call division again in order to muster up troops enough to try to pass it on a subsequent vote? Because Lhal:. is exactly what happened. An Hon. Member: (Inaudibl':') . Mr. Simms: I wonder if Lhc· Minister of Justice could spc::'ak a little louder?

Could the Government House Leader now confirm then - he is only going to dea1 tAd.th h~gislation, or ho is going to deal first with those pieces of legislation !:hat have been through the Committee process? Thc::~n he listed oFf four or fiVE! - M1~ . Baker: No, tht"eE•. 13 :i_] 1 <; 1] ' 11-6, and 25 . Mr. Simms : 13i.1ls 1.1, 11-6, and 2') . So t/Je ai~E· doing notAl Bi 11 No. 11. .

Can I ask him this? rhe debate on this particular bil.l may not go on to any gl~l"!at ll':~n~~ths. so can he tE!l1 me clr:!arly thE!n, in the a.it" and spirit of co-operation that he often talks about, wh:i.ch biLl hE• intends to ca11 next of the two h1:=! said were ready? He said Bi11 4·6 and Bi11 25 we1ne ttAJo others that were ready. Which one would he propose to call next? Would it be Bi]l Ll6, t.-~lhich is th1:• Hurnan f~ic3hl:.s Bi11, or Bi .ll 25, wh.ich is Lhe :lnFarnous Crou.Jn Lands Bi -11.? Cou]cl he hr·'lp l .. he PI"Occ•c:•cl i11qs dlon<j by L1'·1 I.inq u~; Lhal? No. 89 1n2

Min. SpeakE!I" : 'T'he hon . the SOI"I"Y! GOVI::'J"nlnont 1-\ouso Lt~ddl:!r . The Chair fell asleep. Mr. Simms: So did the Government . Mr. Baker: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Responding to that point of order, I would like to raise another point that is really a point of order, in that Bill No. 46 did reCEdve SE!COnd Reading. I think this is a mistake on the Order Paper and should not be listed under Second Readings but should be listed in Third Readings. ~3o Bill No. 46 did receive Second Reading and shouJ.d be in Committee of l:he Whole. So that leaves BiLl No. 11 and Bill No. 25.

If these get through quickly, then WC? will moVE! to Om! of the others. The order does not matter a great deal bE!yond that., simply because I have not received reports from the Committees that the othei"S have been properly dealt with in Committee. So I would have to then call a bill that has not gone to Committee, and that is something I hoped I would not have to do. If thesE:' get thi"OUCJh quickly, tiwn IAJe IAJ'ill call sorn(:! of lhr:• btl l s that havE:• not been dealt with by the Committee yet, and as the hon. House Leader can see by reading down through, theJ"e arE! qui t:e a number of them.

I would say to him that I had no intention of caLling Bi11 No. 42 today. Mr. Speak~?;_!: : The hon. the Opposition House Leader . Mr. Simms: Mr. Speaker, I would be surprised if .he had any intention of caLling Bill No. 4·2 at any time. So hE! is noiAJ saying that when IAJE! finish IAJith the Forestry Bill, the next one is B]l] LJ6, qoin~J :i.nl.n Conlllll. l..l..er" on r he Hl.lli'l<:tn I~ ic:Jh l.s B·i. ll? L33 DecE•mber 3, 1990 Vol XLI MIn ' BakE! I" : N 0 ' IAI e IAJ'i -1 'I cl o ';c•co ncl re<i dinq on 131.11 No. :? 1). Mr. Simms : So you will second reading on Bill No. Crown Lands amendment. his intention?

Mr. Baker: Yes . go 2 5. That t.o \:hi:! is Mr. Simxns: Did you say you had another point to raise? Mr. Baker: No, the other point was there was a Order Paper . mistake on the Mr. Simms: Oh, I am sorry . Mr. Speaker: Leader ca] led Bi11No. 11. The Government House OrciE!l~ 19, IJJh.i.ch "is Motion, SE!cond 11

An Act To RE!Specting Harvesting And Forests Of The No. 11). Mr. Speaker: Mird.st.er of Agr':icu1tulne . re·ading of a [~ill, Revise rhe Law The Management, Protection Of rhe P1novince," (B:i.11 The han . Foresl..ry the and M r . F 1 i c1 h t : r h i'l n k y u 1 .1 , ~1 r' . Speaker. It is interesting to heaJn the han' HOUSI::' LC'·'ldt:!l" suqqr_:•s L in a sense that there was no urgE! n c y lAd t h l: his

part i c u 1 i.'ll' .. b:il.l. The bil1 is condng into second reading at a l:.ill'le IAJhen, For· the past two or' ti11"E!E' days, questions have been raised about thE! wood supply in this Pr-ovince and about what the Gover ninE! 1·1t is doing with re•garcl to the lAJoocl supply situation, tAJhat rneasuJ"r::>s WE! arE! taldng? Because, Ml". ;:;p€:!aker, l:his bi11 ck•als direct:ly and gi1Jes the Government the legislat.ive tools t.hey need i'lnd spells out 1::• x a c l:.] y tAJ hat IAJI::' lAJ"i ·1 1 b c:• cl1' ·i n q :i. n l:.he l'u LUI""=' t.o <:l1:•a l IAJ"i. ll1 dny I"C:•a l No. 89 r~ 3 3

or perceived problem in the Forest in dust ry. So, Mln. Speaker, it. ht,1S !;,een my privilegE! to present Lo the House for its consideration Bill No. 11, en tit 1 e d 11

An Act To Revise The Law Respecting The Management, Harvesting and Protection Of The Forests Of The Province 11 , or The Forestry Act. foday I would like to ta~e this opportunity to elaborate on the provisions of the bill. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to outline to the House a numbii.•r of basic principles and policies which will guide this Administration in the management of the forest timber resource. Many of these policies are explicitiy stated in the proposed bill,

whereas in other cases the proposed bill provides a legislative framework for policy development . Finally, Mr. Speaker, I would like to outline to the House some of the major initiatives I will be undertaking to implement these po1 ici.es. However, bef:)re I end E! avo u r l:. o do L h ·j, s , I tAJO u 1 d Li k e to 1nakl~ a Ft:.w rl:~rnalnks on Lho forestry sector and its contribution to the Newfoundland economy. The forest resources of Newfoundland and Labrador play an important role in the well-being of the people of this Province.

This naturally renewable resource not only provides wood for industrial and other uses, it ts home to abundant v.Jildlife, it regulates stream flow, it protects watersheds, it provides scenic and recreational values and serves as a pleasing landscape for our cornrnun:lt".i.es. L34· Decernbr:•r 3, 1990 Vol XLI Il: prot;i .des c1 o~><' ! l:o 3 11d. lJi on c l.l b '.i. c rn e LE· In s 0 f !AI() 0 d E' v "! r' y y (' a I'' . 1·his a1loLAJS For· l.:ht'! opE!I~at::ion ol e· three pulp and paper mills and over 2, 000 cornrnerica1 and domes l:.ic sawmills.

It provides thousands of households with firewood and results in nurner'ous othE!r end products. The forest resource of Newfoundland and Labrador has provided a unique lifestyle to the residents of this Province. Approximately 25,000 cutting pE!rmits arE! issued to t.l'w pE•ople of Newfoundland to provide wood for their personal use for firewood, sawlogs, construction timber and other purposes .

There is no denying that thr:• forest industry in Newfoundland has been a very stable soLII~cE• of income and employment in the past, and we need to ensure that the people of NewFoundland dnd Labrador continuE• to rt,!CI'.'iVE! theSE! benefits from the fore sts of Lhe future. In the past, thE!re have been increasing demands from the forest land base for variou s other uses . r he s e demands tAli 11 con t:. "i. n u e in thE! f'utulnE!.

Thus, lAJE:! hau(:• l .. o 1necoqn tze Lhc:·~>r::• dr:: •1nands and i'tclop L a sensible approach to the management: of Lhis resout 'C t:! tAJhich will ensure the continued viability of the forest industry as well as other uses for the forests. It is true that forosts occupy vast areas of thE! Province. For example, the total fares ted ·area on th!'::~ Island of Newfoundland is about 5 million hectares out of .:~ total area of just under 8 million hectares . However, only 2. 8 rn:i.llion hectares are pi"Oduc LiVE!

Fares l:.s, or 35 per cent oF the total 'landmass oF' l..hE• ls]ancl. ~3"i.lnjlarly, only 20 pur cc•nl: uf No. 89 R 3 tl

-, l_abracloi" is pi"ociuc t:.tVE! Forest J.and . Whilo rny depa1"r:.1nont protE!Cl:.s all lands under natural vegetative cover, it manages thE! vegetation of only thE! productive forest lands. This land base supports an industry which produces wood products tAJith a value of close to $600 million per year; it gener·ates 12,000 to 13,000 dir·ect and indirect jobs. The newsprint industry alone accounts for about:. 20 per CE!nt of the manufacturing Gross Domestic Product in this Province.

The forE!St industry, both priiTlai"Y forest1ny and the manufacturing of forest products, contributes to over 8 per cent of the goods producing sector of the Province and 22 per CE!nt in thE! manufacturing sector. A rE!Cent analysis oF the resource shows that the cur1"ent lev~'l of fol"est harVE!St.ing cannot be maintained over the next fifteen to twenty yE:~ars - cannot be maintained ovel'' the next fifteen to twenty year·s. The major problem is that our forests do not have a well-balanced age class dis t ribution. A balanced age class would normally support a sustained wood supply.

However, because oF an irnbalanc(:• :in the age class stl"uctur~~ -· and any of thE! hon. gentlemen oppos:ite or on this side LI.Jho arE! conCE!rnE!d about the wood· supply problem should lis ten intently becausE• herE! is thE! key to our problem: because of the imbalance in the age class structure, we t~o.Ji.ll be hard pressed to provide an adequate wood supply to the current forest industry dur·ing periods when thf.:'l"e wil.l not be enough mature age class available For harves t ing. In or·dc:!r l~o add1"1:>ss l.:his prob l. ':'m tAle will have to adopt some rc·al" - r('i3.Ch Lll'] llleaSUI"(•S.

Our r~oi"C'S l: L3 ~) DE!C~~rnbei" 3, 1990 Vol XLI l"esoul"CI:> has Lhe poL:,!nl:.i,,,I. uF not onJ.y Pl"ovidtnq an adequate lAJoocl SUpply f~or the CUl"l~enl~ l!,!l)l'!l of~ forE!St industt"Y but, in the long run, of sustaining a much hi9her level of production. The current demand for tirnbE'l" within the Province exceeds available supply by almost a million cubic meters per year.

This assessment closely paraJ.lels the finding of the 1981 Poole Commission on Forest Protection and Management and will have a profound impact. upon out~ appl·'oach to forest management For Lhe l~E!maindE•r of this centur·y and beyond.

In the developing rhe Forestry Act and the related forestry polici,:-s, this Gover·nrnc::!nL has bc::~E!n guided and t;.Ji11 cont.:inue to be guided by two Fundamental principles: Firstly, this Government recognizes that the timber resourcE! rnanagE!lTlE!nt. rnust. bE· p 1 aced within the context oF other resource managemE!nt objE!CtivE•s and in a manner which is consistent with sound environmental prac t ices.

Secondly, this Governmen t recognj.zes t:.ha·t. - l:.:i.lllbel"' l"eSOlH'CE· rnanagernent rnu~;L noL only pr·ovicle for the 1eq:il:intal:e u~_;c:• oF Locldy's c.itizr:'ns; but also for· f ut..lH'e gE•nc::~rations or~ ~Jewr~oundlancic::•r'S. In short, our timber management:. policies and pracl:.:ices 111ust conform to the principles of sustainable development and sustainE!d yiE!ld. Bo t h thE!SE! principles are, For the First t.irne in OUl" history, enshl"ined in t:h:is Forestry Act. WhilE! the scope of thE!

Province's li.rnbc:•l" supply shortage has been well documented, there still remains the task o f identifying those areas oF the p I" 0 V i n C E! Ll.l hE:! l" (! S h 0 l" t a q E! S Ll.l t] [ b 1:;• lllOS t. acute. Accoi"dinq1y, rny DC::·part:.rnE!nl .. ·is C!lncluct·inq a clc::•l:.a·i!,:•cl analyst'' or~ Lh::· No. 89 r~ 3 5

~ ..... su~;tain<:tbl.e l:i.ntber supply in c'ach of thE:! th:it"LE·en for·est rnanaqernenL di stricts having significant concentrations of Crown lands. These plans will identify areas of major timbE!r supply shortages and will propose measures to balance the wood supply and demand. My Department will be working with both pulp and paper companies on a similar process for company held forest lands. I have directed by officials to seek input from as many individual s and interest groups as possiblE!.

It is expected that this process will be completed within the next year. rhe vehicle for implementing plans of action will bE• the direct forest management plan. These plans will not only address the question of how available timber supplies will be allocated to various users. but will also outline those management a.c t i v it i e s w hi c h tAli 11 be r e q u i red to increase timber supplies over the next several decades.

Wherever possible, these plans tAii.ll identify areas where various community and regional dE•vE·loprnE!nt groups can co .. -op1:!rate wil:.h my Department' s for'E !St ry pE!InsonneJ. in planning and implementing Foresl:. rna n a g e 111 E! n t a c t:i. v i t i E! s . 0 u r f o r E! s t Ill a n a g u 1 n e n l:. a c t i v i t i e s tAli. 1. l s E! e a concerted effort in three major areas: silviculture, protecl:.ion and utilization. I will notAJ address each of these in detail.

The Province's silviculture efforts. initiated in the mid 1970s and intensified in the 1980s. were just one component of successful federal/provincial and Government/industry cost-shared agreements. During this period, four fedE!raJ./provincial agi~E>ornents haVE! bc•en comp1Ed .(! d, tAJith tol:a1 expenditulne<; of :in E!XCI::•ss of ~!>LBO Jni11ion. rhrc• 1::•drly aCji''C'i::'IIIUnl:S SC':•l: L36 December 3. 1990 Vol XLI -- -· in p.l d I~:' l:. h (:• in E! <]:i 0 l'l<'ll :i.nf'r'as tructure r'equi.tnE!d l:·.o a11otAJ l:.he Departrnenl:. to carTy out .·. tts managE•ment s tratc:·giE !S.

SoJTJe of' the results of these agreements were the construcl:.ion and maintenance of over 2000 kilometers of forest access roads, funding for protection from wildfires, insect pests and diseases, and the si.lvicull:ur·al treatment of over 110,000 hecLarE!S of forest land . The silvicull:ure expenditures dur:ing this pE!lniod have exceed1:~d $88 mi.J.l:ion and these efforts have inc reased sustainable timber supplies by appinoximatE•ly 18 pE:!I" cent:..

However, in o1nder to rnax:irnize the impact of silviculturi~g reducing currt::~nt and projecl:ed t:irnbE·r s u p p 1 y s h o r tag E' s . i t tAli 11 b o necessary to change the emphasis of the programmE• and to :inCI''ease the level of available fundinq . For the foreseeable Future. reforestation will be maintained at a levc:~l of t.~'n to l:.tJJe1vE· million seedlings pE!r year. Emphasis tAJi11 be plac~'cl upon such activities as pre-commercial and cornmer'1: i,aL thinnin,Js .:Hid f' E! r t i.] i. z a L :i o n .

T h c• r a t. ··j o n i'l] E' f' o r· this red:lrect .i.o 1J of el rorl- is lhaL rE~foresLat.ion effo1nts !Ar.i.'ll. not r ''' s u 1 l:. in h a 1n vI? s l':. able l·. i 111 bur bE!fore the year ' 203':), IAlh t:!I"E!i:'IS thinning wtll result· in harvestablE! tirnbe1n by the y1:!C.'ll" 2015. CurrE!n'L projections indicate that the timber suppl.y shortfalls tAJill be rnost acute during the period 1990, this present year, until 2030 . So that is roughly a forty year span.

Quite apart frorn its 1"011:! in increasing t:irnber suppl:iE!S Lo rn~ :!el:. industrial., cotnnwtncia1 ancl dornes tic USI:;!S, si .lvicultut"e h<.'ls <:'! major role to p1ay in enhancing L he p r' u d u c l:. :i v j L y or· L h c· f' o !" l'' ~. l:. No . 89 fD6

l<'~nd base. Despi\:t" our I"C:'!Cr?nl:. E:~ f f' o I" t s , t. h r::! p I" o cl u c L i v :i l:. y o f s o rn ('! of OUr r--OI"eSl:.S :is OXl.:I"UI Tlely 10\JJ. In large measure this has been due to repeated infestations of spi"Uce bud worm and hemlock looper. An Hon. Member: (Inaudible) . Mr. Flight: Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member for Port au Port was up today sanctimoniously asking questions that might, in effect, undermine the viability of the industry in a town which hE! represents. So it clor::~s not augur well for him to be standing in the door drinking his coffee and shouting across the House.

Better he carne :in and lear·ned lear·n something that he obviously does not know; better he came in and listened to the debate and listened to the speech and use it to stand up and ask informr::~d questions, questions that will enhance the forest industry and not, maybe, undermine it. As a matter of fact, I might tell him, Mr.

Speaker, that his constituency does not necessarily Find his linE! of questioning, or the ME!ITibE!I" f ol" the WPst Co<:'ISt, Ol" the Leader of the Opposition, a few days ago; they do not necessarily find it amusing and may well find it irresponsible, given the problems the forest industry is having. An Han. Member: Hear, hear! Mr .. : ........ .£..1ight_: Now, Mr. SpE!aker. if we arE! to pass on to future generations of Ne~~oundlanders a viable Forest resource, it is essential that silviculture programmes be initiated in these arE!as.

The r·estoration of these areas transcends mere economic considera t ions and goes to the very heart:. of lhe Governmenl:.rs L37 Dr::~cembE•J" 3, 1990 Vol XLI C Ol"fiiTii "l:II"IU l'l t l:.O ciE!VC:!1opnlent as a p1~o1not.tng t·:he social we11 - being of NewfoundlandE!I"S. s u s t: a i n i'l b 1,:, l'llr:• d 1'1 ~:; 0 f" dl'1d OCOnOIIIlC or·cl·.innr--y The timber supply which will be available for harvest over the next twenty--five years is alrr::~ady growing in our forests. To ensure that it 1.uill continue to be availablE!

For harVE!St, it ~d.ll be necessary to maintain an adequate protection programme agatnst the main forE!St enerrr.iE!S, fii"E! and insects. This Governrn~=!n"l: is cornrnittE!d to · tht:! principle of protecting our forests From the ravages of wi l.dfi 1~e and F Ol"e s t insect pests, using thr::~ Jnost environmental.ly safe methods available. Not only rnust existing timber stands be protected from tJJildfire and forest insect pes l:s. steps must be taken to ensure maximum utilization. Mr. Simms: People 1 s (inaudible) . Mr. Flight : Thes·e measures include-- if the Member For Gr·and Falls wil1 listen now, Mr.

S p e a k c::! r , I am s u r E! h e tAli 1 l b E' v t:! J" y suppol~tive of l:.h'"' str=:·ps L•.Je a1··:,,• about to take. Mr. Simms: of this? Mr. Flight: another half hour. HotJJ much lllOI"e is thE!rE• I do not an hour, maybe, know, OJ" dn . An Han. Member: (Inaudible) . Mr. Flight : No, no, Mr. Speaker . the introduction of stricter timber utilization standards on lands held under timber l i cence as well as on Crown lands; the construction, main t enance and use o f Forest access roads on Crown No. 89 R37

la11ds and lands l'H:!ld under timber licences. Road construction standards c:~ncl the Jnc;;~quiJnt'mE!I1Ls l:.o rehabilitate areas affected by temporary forest access roads 1.1Jill be outlined in regulations. Mr. Hodder: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. An Hon. Member: Mr. Beauchesne. Mr. Speaker: Order, please! The hon. the Member for Port. au Port, on a point of order. Mr. Hodder: Mr·. SpE!aker, it is a rule in this House of Assembly, a tradition in this House of Assembly that Members not read their speeches. Mr. Speaker, there .is also a rule in the House of Commons. Our own Standing Order·s are silent