Manitoba Hansard — 6 May 1975 (Sitting 74, 30th Legislature, 2nd Session)

30-2-74

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Tuesday, May 6, 1975 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 2111 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery, where we have 60 students, Grades 4 to 6 standing, of the Guy Hill School. These students are under the direction of Mr. McLaren, Mrs. Grieves and Miss Obedniak. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for The Pas, the Minister of Northern Affairs. We also have 34 students, Grade 8 standing, of the Glenboro School.

These students are under the direction of Mr. Anderson and Mr. Shackel. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. We have 22 students of Grade 6 standing of the Camperville School, under the direction of Mr. Woodley and Mrs. Thompson. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Roblin. And we have 31 students, Grades 4 to 9 standing, of the Pikwitonei School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Turner and Mr. Knudson. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Thompson.

On behalf of all the honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committe es; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Questions. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. ORAL QUESTIONS MR" SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Official Opposition) (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister.

It relates to a document that has now been published indicating that one of the considerations the Federal Government has had with respect to the consensus dealing with wage rates was a 12 percent pay increase as a maximum, or $2, 400, whatever was the lesser, I believe. I wonder if the First Minister's in a position to indicate whether that working paper or those particulars were in fact discussed by the Federal Government with him or have been communicated to him, as part of the guidelines for restraint in the country. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr.

Speaker, the answer to my honourable friend is that at the conference in ottawa at mid-April there was no specific reference to specific numbers in terms of the attempts to achieve a national consensus or guidelines for restraint. I could go further and say that in fact it was studiously or deliberately avoided, but on the other hand I do not want to leave the impression that there was any great pressure at that point in time to get specific numbers just there and then. I indicated that it would be reasonable, however, to expect that by mid-May there would be some numbers forth coming. MR.

SPIVAK: For the First Minister. I wonder if he can indicate whether, in the discussions with the Federal Government, a basic plan for winding down the rise of inflation was proposed, with staging as to goals or objectives to be reached over the next few years. MR. SCHREYER: That is quite correct, Mr. Speaker. The intent was to attempt to stage a winding down of the rate of inflation by approximatel y two percentage points per annum. MR.

SPIVA K: I wonder if the First Minister can indicate whether a goal of three percent rise, or three percent inflation rate, was set for the end of 1978, whether that was one goal that was discussed or not. MR. SCHREYER: No, that was not discussed in that context, Mr. Speaker, and if my honourable friend wishes to know my view of it, I personally don't regard a three percent goal as being realistic, and I don't think it has been achieved in any single year in the past decade, perhaps with one exception. MR.

SPIVAK: Well I wonder, then, if the First Minister can indicate whether he believes that a 12 percent pay raise, or a $2, 400 ceiling, is realistic or not.

2 11 2 May 6, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question's asking for an opinion. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, the First Minister, in answer to the question of the three percent inflation, indicated a position whfoh was part of the working paper that has been pub lished, and having now indicated, I think it's appropriate that a question be put to him, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I do believe that probably this area could be better discussed under some area of the Esti mates than in the question period.

It's not very essential at the moment. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister. Can the First Minister indicate to the House if he or the government had any communication with the Federal Government, or was there a request from the Provincial Government asking for some Vietnamese refugees to come to Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I'm sorry. I'm not sure if it's the acoustics or my own hearing. There were three or four critical words I did not hear at all. MR.

PATRICK: My question was, Mr. Speaker, has the government forwarded any request to the Federal Government asking for some of the Vietnamese refugees to settle in Manito ba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. The reference is to Vietnamese refugees. I cannot say personally whether any of my colleagues have received any such request from the Government of Canada. I suspect it would probably be the Minister of Health and Social Devel opment. I have not received, to the best of my recollection, any communication from any federal Minister. I will check, however •. MR.

PATRICK: A further supplementary. I would appreciate if the Minister would check, if there's any refugees coming to Manitoba, is there any action taken to prepare for these people for job employment and for training? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, all I can offer to my honourable friend in the interval, while we check further, is that there is some precedent for Manitoba being able to take action to shoulder a proportionate share of the national task or burden or obligation.

I think, for example, of the handling of the problems with respect to a certain number of people from Uganda who were accommodated in Canada, which Manitoba offered to carry out a proportion ate obligation, and also with respect to a much smaller number of Tibetans, some of whom are living in Winnipeg to this day, and I believe quite happily. MR. PATRICK: One more supplementary, Mr. Speaker. If there was no request from the Federal Government, was there a request by the Provincial Government that indicated to the Federal Government that they would accept some refugees in Manitoba? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that this was current, perhaps more current two, three weeks ago. I believe that the Minister of Health may be in a position to respond or take it as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (Minister of Health and Social Development) (St. Boniface): Mr.

Speaker, at the time that we had the request to look into the adoption situation, if you remember I reported to the House that I added another paragraph telling the Minister that we would be only too pleased to discuss anything else that we could do to help these people, and I haven't received anything since then. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID BLAKE (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, my question's to the Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation.

I wonder if he would inform the House if he is considering a ban on automobiles equipped with catalytic converters, or the entrance of such vehicles to the provin cial parks, in view of the fire hazard posed by vehicles equipped with this type of converter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. HON. RENE TOUPIN (Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs) (Spring field): No, Mr. Speaker. MR. BLAKE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I wonder, if such a ban is imposed by the federal parks, if the Minister would consider a similar ban in provincial parks.

May 6, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The question is hypothetical - "if". MR. TOUPIN: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assinoboia. 21 13 MR, PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister. I believe the First Minister indicated to the House that on March 3lst there would be an interprovincial Sky West service between the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta, and can the Minister indicate what is the delay, or has this plan been scrapped completely and there will be no service? Because I understand the Minister did indicate it would start March 3lsL MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: No, Mr. Speaker, the plan has not been abandoned. I believe that there are some discussions still ongoing with respect to the articles or charter of incorporation of Sky West Limited and the st·le'.Jtion of the carrier to actually carry out the operations. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture, and ask him if he received any requests in regard to the disposal of dead animals found on farms throughout the province.

MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): I would presume, Mr, Speaker, that the honourable member is suggesting any recent requests, because that item has been under consideration for about seven years. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L,R, (BUD) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Education, Colleges and Universities Affairs.

I'd like to ask him whether any revision or reappraisal of the Univeristy of Manitoba's 197 4-75 budget is contemplated by the government and the Universities Grants Commission. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Education. HON, BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education) (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, as I had indicated to the House on Friday during the debates on the budget, the Universities Grants Commission is awaiting the receipt of the budget from the University of Manitoba and, pending that, we are in no position to revise or reappraise anything. MR, SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

Might I ask the Minister whether the Universities Grants Commission is awaiting the 197 4-75 budget or the 1975-76 budget? MR, HANUSCHAK: 1975- 76, and also, Mr. Speaker, there will be a need for the audited report of the 1974- 75 fiscal year operation. MR, SHERMAN: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Then is the Minister advising the House that the 197 4-7 5 position of the university may be reappraised as yet by the govern ment and the Grants Commission? MR, HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated in the House on Friday, that matter the Grants Commission will deal with when it is in a position to deal with it. Not having the audited report of 1974- 75, it's in no position to advise the government on what course of action it will take or what it would wish the government to do. MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR, SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, on Thursday last, the Honourable the Member for Fort Garry had asked whether I could confirm the report that the government had made an offer to the Government Employees Association, which was higher in percentage terms, I think he put it, to those in the higher income bracket than those in the lower income bracket. Without going into any detail, I can however quite clearly confirm the opposite. That is to say that, in percentage terms, the offer, the initial offer, was higher in percentage terms, significantly higher at the lower income level than at the higher. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake .• MR. EINARSON: Well, Mr. Speaker, I had a question for the Minister of Mines and Resources and since he's not here today possibly I could pose it to the Minister of Agriculture. It's related to the question I asked him a few moments ago. I'm wondering iJ the farmers can contemplate any problem in regards to the environment as a result of the many rendering plants going out of business because they are not able to dispose of dead animals. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture.

2114 May 6, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, I haven't had any indication from the community at large that there was a problem. We know that we have had some problem for some number of years and we have attempted to evolve some sort of a policy, but which at this point I'm not in a position to indicate to the members opposite, other than we are looking at ways and means by regulation as to how we might be able to further control the problems of the environ ment. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . Jo WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question to the Honourable the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and.Cultural Affairs. I wonder if the Honourable Minister can reply to my question which I raised the other day regarding the sale of Olympic tickets for people in Manitoba who want to attend the Olympics. There seems to be some problems along the line and I wonder if the Honourable Minister could advise the House. MRo SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. MRo TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, I took that question as notice last weeli, I believe. I still didn't get the information required.

I'll check into that possibility this afternoon and try to inform the honourable member tomorrow. ORDERS OF THE DAY - ADDRESS FOR PAPERS MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day; Address for Papers. The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR . EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rock Lake, that an humble address be voted to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor praying for copies of all correspondence between the Province of Manitoba and/or Manitoba Hydro, and Canadian Electric Company relative to the converter equipment tenders for Manitoba Hydro and the possibility of locating a Canadian Gceneral Electric manu facturing plant at Brandon, Manitoba. MOTION presented. MR o SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I would merely like to indicate that we accept the Address for Papers subject to the proviso that we would want the concurrence of the other party to the correspondence, and also subject to the proviso that any passages of our correspondence that relate to engineering technical data, which I believe would be minor in any case, would not be included in the tabled documents. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. ORDERS FOR RETURN MR. SPEAKER: Orders for Return. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR . LLOYD AXWORTHY(F ort Rouge): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Portage la Prairie, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing 1. How many adoptive families requesting children under the age of two years were registered February 1, 1975, indicating the data by agency. 2. How many adoptive families have additionally been registered to April 15th, 1975, indicating date by agency. MRo SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The noise is too loud. I can't hear. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: 3. How many children in total have been placed through the registry. 4.

How many children have been registered by each agency and how many of these cases have been placed. 5. How many individuals comprise the staff of, the registry, what are their qualifications and experience. 6. What were the expenses of establishing the registry, and what are the expenses of operating and maintaining the registry. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Mro Speaker, we'd be pleased to accept this order and give all the information that we have available. MR. SPEAKER: Does the House Leader wish me to carry on?

May 6, 1975 21 15 GOVERNMENT BILLS MR" USKIW: Mro Speaker, would you call Bills 15 and 34. MR. SPEAKER: Very well. Bill No. 15" The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. BILL NO" 15 - THE

SUMMARY CONVICTIONS ACT MR" AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, looking at this bill, we listened, as we always do, with great care to the words of the Attorney-General in introducing the bill and took as some degree of merit his concerns about improving the efficiency and effectiveness of operation of the police forces, and responded I think with some openness to the suggestion that this particular Act would aid and assist in the delivering and operation of the

summary of convictions. At the same time, Mr. Speaker, we also couldn't help but be impressed, if you like, by the words of caution that were expressed by the Member from Birtle-Russell, who did suggest that there may be some difficulties involved in this which could overlap into a degree of control or kind of intimidation or suppression by police forces if it was used in the wrong way. And taking those two points into account, we sat down and looked at this bill very carefully to see if we could determine exactly which side of the case, to our eyes, made the most sense.

And I think that the position that we would very simply like to take is that we basically agree with the intent of the bill, and therefor e would be prepared to pass upon it, but would like to wait upon the appearance and expression of opinion by expert witnesses at Law Amendments Committee when this bill is discussed, to ensure that the concerns raised by the Member for Birtle-Russell in fact can be appeased and dealt with.

So our basic position is that we would be in support, with that reservation; that we would hope that the concerns raised - which we think are legitimate ones - by the member, will be answered fully, and that we will be able to judge them upon that testimony. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General shall be closing debate" The Attorney-General. HON" HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General) (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, I, too, have listened with interest to the comments by the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell, and I think it would be opportune at this time to deal with some of the specific areas of quite legitimate concern expressed by the honourable member. First, I would like to emphasize that insofar as this bill is concerned it deals with ext.ending what is already the existing provisions in regard to common offence notices in the Highway Tra ffic Act .

The Highway Traffic Act at the present time would provide for approximately 90 percent of all common offence notices that would be issued under the provisions of the bill before us, so that in fact 90 percent of the issuing of offences is already being done in Manitoba under the Highway Traffic Acto The ot her two main Acts that would be affected mainly by the passage of this legislation would be the Liquor Control Act and the Wildlife Act, so that between those two Acts and possibly a few other incidental Acts of a very minor nature relating to common offence notices, another 10 percent would be added to the 90 percent that I mentioned earlier.

I say this in order to emphasize that in the experience of the police, certainly in the experience of the d'3partment, there has been no public outcry in regard to the manner of issuing common offence notices under the Highway Traffic Act during the past, I believe seven years that this provision has existed there.

So I can only safely assume, I believe, Mr" Speaker, if there has been no public outcry, if there has been no concern expressed of certainly any significance in regard to the Highway Traffic Act which would account for 90 percent of the common offence notices that would be issued under this bill, then I doubt very much that we would have any outcry as a result of adding the balance of the Acts to the provisions of this method of issuing common offence notices - the remaining 10 percent.

Reference was made also to mobile offences, and that although this might be reasonable, common offence notices to be issued under the Highway Traffic Act - because motorists are extremely mobile, therefore serve them with a notice right at the time - that the same rational ization would not apply in other instances. I think, Mr. Speaker, that the two most common areas where the present bill before us would extend this area of service of notices, would in fact be areas where there would be an extremely mobile type of situation.

For instance, the most common would be open liquor in a vehicle - certainly a very mobile type of situation, the serving of a notice insofar as a motor vehicle in process of movement" This is certainly a very mobile type of situation.

2 11 6 May 6, 1975 BILL 15 (MR. PAWLEY cont'

d) In addition, Mr. Speaker, the wildlife provisions that this would extend to would also, I think, in the. main deal with people that are quite some distance - hunters - quite some distance from their homes, and therefore the same type of rationale that certainly is extended insofar as offences under the Highway Traffic Act, and the need for issuing of notices such as this would, I think, on the same basis be extended to offences under the Wildlife Act, mainly dealing with hunters some distance from their homes.

I find it very difficult to comment in regard to the remark that was made that possibly if these notices are made available to police officers, that prosecutions might be commenced in a moment of anger or stress,

whereas some time to pause and to consider might in fact give the police officer reason to reassess his basis for issuing a summons. I would only like to say this, that I think it's very arguable whether or not the police officer might , in fact,. act any differently, in most instances any more irresponsibly - if that is the word that was suggested - after a few hours, or at the time of the incident itself. I think that is a very arguable area.

I would allow it for the honourable member, that there would certainly be areas of legitimate concern, that possibly offence notices issued at the time might, in fact, be better issued at some later point; but on the other hand, I would think that there would be a number of instances where maybe it would be better that the offence notice be issued at the time of the incident rather than later, and that possibly the passage of time would affect more adversely the proper handling of the matter which warrants the issuance of a common offence notice.

Lastly, the honourable member expressed considerable concern about the use of abbreviations, and very properly and soundly expressed to the House his concern that the use of abbreviations might in fact confuse the public as to exactly what they were being charged with, and I must say that this argument did weigh considerably on my own thinking, as the honourable member advanced it.

But I did obtain, and I will have a:vailable for members, the Common Offence Notice that• s used now under the Highway Traffic Act, and I observed the abbreviations that were in use under the present Common Offence Notice at the present time in Manit oba. And I would like to just list for honourable members the abbreviations that are in use at the present time under the present Common Offence Notice under the Highway Traffic Act. Those abbreviations are: Speeding. Improper turns. Unsafe passing. Disobey traffic control device. Follow too close. Drive carelessly. Faulty equipment. Unlawfully possession liquor.

Well, I'm sorry, I'm leading to other abbreviations that I could see being added by the passage of this Act. The ones I've mentioned first here deal with the Highway Tra ffic Act and I think tha t all those abbreviations should clearly indicate to a member of the public being charged, what the nature of the charge is against him or her. The extension of abbreviations under our present legislation would be of this nature: Unlawful possess ion of liquor. Unlawful consumption of liquor. And I would think, Mr.

Speaker, that there would be little doubt here on the part of members of the public as to their understanding of these abbreviations. Where the member must write a brief description, however, of the offences, I suspect that there might very well be problems.

All that I can say is that experience of the past seven years with the existing common offence notice under the Highway Traffic Act indicated that there has, in fact, been very little concern apparently expressed by members of the public, and I certainly would be interested when we reach committee stage, if there-is evidence submitted to us by members of the public or otherwise that in fact there has been problems in the past by the use of these abbreviations.

If there has, then I think certainly our first principle of concern, as the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell pointed out, has to be to ensure that the public clearly are advised of the nature of the offence which they are charged with, and we would want to protect that in a scrupulous manner. It's also certainly our intention to repeal the present provisions in the Highways Tra ffic Act relating to traffic offence notices when these amendments take effect. As to the

section dealing with parking offences, this is the procedure that has been followed for the past seven years in Manitoba without complaint. So I mention those points, Mr. Speaker, to the House at this time, and prior to dis cussion in committee, and I look forward very much to further evidence that could be submitted in committee, either by members or by the public itself. QUESTION put, MOTION carried.

May 6, 1975 MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 16. The Honourable Member for Riel. MR, USKIW: Mr. Spe aker, I wanted to hold that particular it em. MR, SPEAKER: You wish to have No. 34 only? MR. USKIW: Yes. BILL NO. 34 - THE REAL ESTATE BROKERS ACT MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 34. The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Internal Services. 21 17 HON. IAN TURNBULL (Minister of Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services) (Osborne) presented Bill No. 34

an Act to amend the Real Estate Brokers Act, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Speaker, the amendment to the Real Estate Brokers Act contained in Bill No. 34 is to introduce a measure of consumer protection in real estate transactions. The substance of the amendments is contained in four sections, and I would like to outline the general provisions of these sections to the House. The most important of the four changes is a complete overhaul of the disclosure

section of the Real Estate Brokers Act. At present, and in the future too, Mr. Speaker, it is and will be the duty of a broker to endeavour to sell property for the best price that he can get. If he purchases that property himself, however, it is to his interest to buy it as cheaply as possible. In such a case, Mr. Speaker, a broker's duty and his interest are in conflict. The

section that I am amending here in Bill 34 deals with conflict of interest that arises when a broker or salesman, who has been employed to sell a property, ends up buying it him self. The most obvious case is where a house is listed for sale with a broker and that broker buys it. But there are various, rather more complex possibilities. It may be bought by one of the broker's salesmen, or by the wife of the broker or of the salesman, or bYa company of which one of them is a part owner. And where a house is listed on a co-operative or a multiple listing service, then of course, Mr.

Speaker, not only the listing broker but all the brokers who are members of that service, and their salesmen, are being indirectly employed to sell the house. The present

section has proved to be inadequate, largely because of the lack of clarity in its wording. For instance, it is not clear how it applies to a co-operative listing, or indeed whether it applies to it at all. There are basically two points to be covered. The first is to require that the identity of the purchaser be fully disclosed. When the broker himself buys the house, this is usually fairly obvious, but it is not obvious if the house is bought by a company owned by the broker or by one of his salesmen who is not known to the vendor. The

section provides that if proper disclosure is not made, the vendor may rescind - that is, cancel the sale. The provision for cancellation is not in the present act, The Real Estate Brokers Act. The second point that has to be covered is the question of the commission. The commission is a reward for finding a buyer, and it hardly involves much effort, Mr. Speaker, for a broker to find himself, nor does it involve much effort for a broker to find one of his salesmen or s�les people. The

section provides that in such a case no commission is payable even where there is a proper disclosure. At present, Mr. Spea�r, if the broker complies with the law and discloses his interest, he gets no commission, but if he breaks the law - this is in accordance with the present act - if he breaks the law and keeps his interest secret, he gets the commission. The present situation, Mr. Speaker, is simply ridiculous. In a co-operative listing, the position is little different.

The commission is normally split between the broker who has the listing - that is the listing broker - and the one who finds the purchaser - that is the selling broker. Although a selling broker who buys himself should not be able to claim a share of the commission, there is not reason why the listing broker should lose his share. The section, therefore, provides that the vendor will have to pay only the listing broker's share. This

section on disclosure also deals with the converse case, where a broker is selling a house owned by himself, or by one of his salesmen, or by someone else who is associated with him. In this case, too, there must be full disclosure, and if there is not, the purchaser may rescind.

2118 May 6, 1975 BILL 34 (MR. TURNBULL cont'

d) Ther e is, however, an exception in the case of new houses. Most builders sell their own houses either directly or through an associated company. This is generally well7known and purchasers are, as a rule, well aware that the salesman they are dealing with is employed by the builder , so that there is nothing to gain by making the salesman repeat this information. Finally, the disclosure

section re quires that any broker or salesman buying any property must disclose that he is in the real estate business. This requirement has nothing to do with conflict of interest, it is just that most people seem to think they are entitled to know whether they are deal ing with a professional or another amateur. A similar rule has been in force for some years in British Columbia. The second most important change in.Bill No. 34 re lates to the authorized officials of a brokerage company or a partnership. When an individual is registered as a broker, his regi stration covers him personally.

That's the situation today. The registration of a corpora tion, however, would not necessarily cover any particular individual. Each company may therefore name up to three persons, three persons, who are covered by the company's re gistration. They are known as authorized officials. A similar rule applies to partnerships. Everyone else who works for the company or partnership is registered as a salesman. This limit of three on the number of authorized officials is proving to be inconvenient, particularly in the case of firms wi.th branch offices.

There should be an authorized official in charge of each br.anch, but it is impossible to insist on this when the number of officials is limited by law. This bill will remove the limit and will re quire that there be an authorized official in charge of each branch. In addition, all authorized officials will have to pass appropriate examination, not just the salesman's examination. In future, therefore, there should be more persons in the industry qualified as brokers rather than as salesmen, and every salesman should be under the effective supervision of a qualified broker. That provision, too, Mr.

Speaker, should introduce some further measures of consumer protection by re quiring more highly qualified people to operate in branch offices of re al estate firms. Thirdly, Mr. Speaker, the bill will authorize the Public Utilities Board to require all candidates for re gistration as brokers or salesmen to take a course of instruction.

They have for many years been required to pass an examination, but so long as they can pass it, there is at present no other control over the instructions they re ceive, By prescribing an appropriate course of instruction, the board will be able to upgrade the standard of professional education. The final change, Mr. Speaker, is of interest really only to the industry. At present, all regi strations of brokers and salesmen run from the lst of April to 3lst of March of each operating year. This concentrates all the work of the board staff in re newing re gistration into two or three weeks.

It is intended to switch to a system ot individual re gistration years, which will spread this work more evenly over the year. Mr. Speaker, these are the explanations of the amendments proposed in Bill 34 to the Real Estate Brokers Act. As I have mentioned, I do think that consumer interests will be protected somewhat more than they now are, particularly by the

section of the bill which re lates to disclosure of intere:ot of brokers. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Gladstone, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr .

Speaker, before the acting House Leader moves us into Supply, would like just for information purposes to indicate to honourable gentlemen opposite that it is proposed to bring Capital Supply for consideration by the House either Thursday or Monday - let us say between Thursday and Monday, so that perhaps they would pass this on to their appropriate colleagues so that it wouldn't come as any surprise to them. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Education, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried, and the House re solved itself into Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair.

May 6, 1975 2119 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE MR . CHAIRMAN: I refer honourable members to their Estimate Books, Page 31, Resolution 66 (f)(l). And before we start, I've had an enquiry how many hours we've spent in Estimates so far. We've spent 81 hours and 35 minutes starting now. 66(f)(l) - pass? The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR . BOB BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yesterday we at some length discussed the oil situation that faces not only us Canadians, but generally the world, and I think we noted that several things are happening.

Removed from a relatively cheap oil supply source to a relatively competitive one as far as the world market is concerned, several obser vations were made with regard to the Manitoba Energy Council and several other things that could possibly be done to firm up the situation as far as Manitoba is concerned with this need for energy, But I think when we talk about economic planning, Mr. Chairman, I think there's one thing that we, as Canadians of course in Manitoba, should be vitally concerned with, and that is one of remaining competitive in the world market.

We hear a lot today about the heavy labour - orientated industries such as the garment industry having difficulty in trying to make ends meet, not only in Manitoba but in the garment capital of Canada like Montreal, and the main problem that these people are facing of course is that labour in places such as Hong Kong and some of the far eastern places, they're paying their labourers $4. 00 a day, and we are competing with that type of goods.

And I would like to ask the Minister at this time, to what extent or what he feels is the future of Canadian industry in light of the escalating costs that we're facing, and I know it's of vital concern both to the labourer employed in the related industries that are being hit hard by imported commodities, and also by industry, who are concerned of course in the selling of that commodity. The other thing, I think, that concerns everybody is to what extent can we keep on adding tariffs to our different products that we purchase from people abroad?

To what extent can we increase these tariffs and still have a certain amount of credibility and keep a certain standard of living with regard to selling our own commodity abroad. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 66 (f)(l) - passed. (2) •.. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR . BANMAN: Could the Minister advise the House, out of Other Expenditures, I've noticed it's risen quite drastically over the last little while, and two years ago the travel expenses were about $!-'::,OOO. I wonder if he could tell me out of this $249, OOO what the travelling expenses will be this year. MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I don't have that particular item. I gather the question is: how much of Item (f)(2), the $249, OOO, how much of it is travel? I would say it would be a very minor portion, but I'll get you the exact estimate. It'll be - I don't know, I'm just guessing, somewhere in the order of, I don't know, 10, 15 thousand, but that's a guess. I'll get you Lle right figure. MR . BANMAN: In the last Public Accounts, Mr.

Chairman, we noticed that out of that Economic Planning and Policy Research, we noted that the largest expenditure was Travelling, and the one right next to it was Printing Costs, and I'm wondering what the big increase is with re.'.-;ards to Other Expenditures. MR . EVANS: You're wondering why the large increase in travel. This would be the year ending ••• MR. BANMAN: Why the large increase on any particular item. Is there any particular item that we're spending more money on now? MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'll have to get a breakdown.

I wonder if we could take it as notice and we'll give you the breakdown as soon as we get the information, if that's all right with the Chairman; otherwise he'll have to wait a minute. Well, this is a breakdown, Mr. Chairman - I've been handed a note - this is a breakdown of the $249, OOO. It doesn't give you comparison with last year but it'll give you an indication of the expenditures estimated for the forthcoming year. Professional fees and consultants will be $116, OOO - that's what is being provided for. This includes a large percentage - a large percentage will be legal fees.

As I indicated the other day, we have made many interventions before the National Energy Board. It's a quasi judicial board, and it does require a considerable amount of legal preparation, so we find

2120 May 6, 1975 SUPPLY - INDUSTRY AND COMME RCE (MR. EVANS cont'd) •.•. � ourselves spending a considerable amount of money in that area. Printing and Stationery, $4, 500. Post age, Telephones, $2, 500. Travel Expenses, $15, OOO - this is mairuy to travel to the various National Energy Board hearings which are held not only in Ottawa, but sometimes in other parts of the country, and of course it's to enable the staff to travel to the various economic and industrial development conferences that are held, both within the western region and federally-pr ovincially, and so on.

The rural re gions' working group expenditure of $100, OOO - this has been a transfer from the Regional Development Branch. This is the rese arch on regional development. It was transferred out of the Regional Development Branch, and that's an est imated $100, OOO, so that accounts for an increase of $100, OOO. And there's Miscellaneou s, I believe comes to about $11, OOO. I think that's supposed to add up to $249, OOO. MR. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, the $100, OOO taken out of the .. . Do I understand it's a transfer from the Regional Development section? MR. EVANS: This is what I am advised.

It's a transfer of $100, OOO from the Regional Development Branch, and I believe therefore that that amount of money, required for people helping with our res earch in regional development, has been taken out of the Regional Development Branch and put into this general Economic Research and Planning Branch. MR. CHAIRMAN: (f)(2 ) - passed. (f) - passed. That completes 66 with the exception of the Minister's Salary, which we'll come· back to at the end. Resolution 67. Programs and Productivity Group. ((

a) was read and passed) (b)(l) - passed. (2) . . . The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister could inform the House, out of these $564, OOO how much of that was grants? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: In that particular figure, there are no grants as such. No outright grant provisions as such. MR. BANMAN: Could the Minister then inform the House, out of that figure how much would be professional services, professional fees?

And I wonder if the Minister could inform us when we could deal in his estimates with the incentive grants and the Research Council, where we would properly deal with that. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Research Council is under the next item (c), Science and Technology, and there are other miscellaneous small grants that we make in the area of Design and Marketing, so that's an area. Also, we have small grants under the Trad e and Industry Group that are available. Perhaps the best way to answer the question - you were wonder ing how much is for professional services and fees.

I'm n'lt sure whether you mean outside of the government service or inside the government service, but I can advise you that in the ..• Perhaps I could breal; down in this way: $150, OOO of this amount is for management services. This includes a small business office, our management consulting work, direct management assist ance, our Master Business Administration Student Assist ance Program and support for the federal CASE program, and feasibility st udies for new ventures. That's $150, OOO. $105, OOO has been made available for productivity improvement.

This in cludes our community management development program, follow-up work on the regional productivity audits, and assistance to companies for implementation. This would be using staff. $130, OOO for manpower services. This includes manpower data, collection and analysis, and also manpower management development. Now there's another item, a new item, put in this year, $150, OOO for Canad a-Manitoba manpower industrial training projects. And then lastly, $29, OOO for general expenses.

And of all those items, you can pick out various allotments for outside professional consultants, and we would estimate this would be around $50, OOO, $50, OOO to $75, OOO. Our policy is to utilize in-house staff capacity as much as possible if it's an ongoing program. If it's not an ongoing program, we utilize the services of outside consultants. MR. BANMAN: Would I understand the Minister correctly, then, when he says that about $50, OOO would be going to outside consult ants and outsid e professional people?

And the program such as the manpower program that he described - is that being administered by the people of that particular department? I wonder if you could just elaborate how that money is being spent.

May 6, 1975 2121 SUPPLY - INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE MR . EVANS: Yes, the $50, OOO to $75, OOO is mainly for contract staff where we make a contract with a professional, an economist, a management or productivity specialist or what have you, and utilize that individual's services for a period of time. It varies. It will vary depending on the degree of problems that arise in different companies where we want to bring in a particular specialist. For example, I mentioned direct management assistance.

You may have a problem company, a company that has a very special problem, a very serious problem, and we might feel that we may wish to hire a consultant who specializes in that particular product, never mind an industry group, not a generalist, but one who has some very specialized technical knowledge, so therefore we would use some of this 50 to 75 thousand dollars to pay that individual. We prefer to use individuals rather than to hire consulting companies as such. This way I think you sometimes get more value for your dollar. MR .

BANMAN: Would some of this money have been spent, then, on one of the programs that the department carried out with regard to doing efficiency audits with regard to bookkeeping or whatever, that was required, or that a small business required, as far as hiring consultants and that type of thing? MR.

EVANS: Well, we're talking about this coming year, and we do have in this category now the Community Management Development program, which I believe is what the honourable mem ber is referring to, where we provide assistance to businesses in various towns and cities in the province, and where we do sit down with the individual businessman, using these professionals, and assist him. As you say, it may be a system with actual bookkeeping problems, how to keep a more efficient set of books, how to improve his accounting systems.

So that is included under the general area of productivity improvement, specifically in this Community Management Development program. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder ... I bel ieve it would be under this

section where I would ask the Minister if he could advise if his department is promoting co-operative purchasing, because I noticed in the one brochure of small business - How to Run a Small Business - that it states here, "Buying your Materials." And I wodd think it would come under productivity and management. It states: "Can you join a co-operative purchasing system ?11 I'm wondering if the Minister could elaborate on that statement. If I was running a small business and came to his department and said, "How do I buy under a co-operative purchasing system?" would he please advise what kind of answer I'd get?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: I can give you one example. A couple of years ago we financed a productivity audit of the Manitoba furniture industry, which included the major furniture manufacturers in the province. As the honourable member may be aware, or may not be aware, we usually set up a steering committee with the co-operation of the industry, and it in turn selects a consultant from a group of consultants that may make proposals.

In this particular case, the consultants that we utilized after doing an intensive study recommended that one of the ways we could improve the competiveness of the Manitoba furniture industry vis-a-vis the industry that existed outside of Manitoba, was for that industry to co-operate in purchasing, in bulk purchasing of some of the basic materials that were utilized by many of the firms. So this is what we're talking about, co-operative arrangements among the firms involved in order to get an input of materials at a better price.

It doesn't refer to a formal co-operative as such, if that's what the honourable member was thinking of. There was a recommendation along this line in another productivity audit as well. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. MINAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Minister could advise, is he aware of any other areas where there is co-operative purchasing going on through arrange ments through his particular department, and in what industries are they going on, and what type of businesses. MR. EVANS: Well, the point, Mr.

Chairman, is that the consultant's report to the industry recommended that they follow that course of action; in the two cases that I can think of, this furniture industry case and also the productivity audit in the WestMan region, recommended that firms there consider co-operative arrangements on purchasing, and I'm. not aware to what degree they're actually carrying this out. But in some instances I think it's

2122 May 6, 1975 SUPPLY - INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE (MR. EVANS cont'd) •.•.• a sound proposal. That, of course, assumes that the companiss can agree among themselves to co-operate in purchasing raw materials. MR. MINAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Minister could advise - has the Manitoba Export Corporation ever been used as the vehicle to go out and do the pur chasing and then distribute to the small businesses any particular item? MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I'm not aware that this has ever occurred. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution (b) - passed. (c)(l) - The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . SPIVAK: I'm sorry. Are we on (c)(

l) Science and Technology? MR . CHAIRMAN: Right. MR . SPIVAK: I'm sorry. Then I'll leave that for the moment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR . BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister could ••. In this case, I notice that - we're on Salaries right now, but if he could te ll us, out of the incentive grants which are found in the back of the Annual Report of the Manitoba Department of Industry and Commerce, how many of those grants went out to either MDC companies or affiliated government agencies or companies that have loans in the MDC? I notice here that a company like A.E.

McKenzie Seed, out of the total of $145, OOO got something in excess of $11, OOO, which means that they got almost 10 percent of the incentive grants. You have an MDC company such as Alpha metrics, which got a total of $3, OOO. The Health Sciences Centre got $3, OOO. Venture Tours got $1, 500. Flyer Industries got $1, OOO. I see somewhat of a problem here, Mr. Chairman. If we have one of these government agencies feeding companies that are presently owned by the government - and we've seen in the last little while large sums of money go into A. E.

McKenzie Seed, and here we have incentive grants being offered to that company from the Department of Industry and Commerce totalling almost 10 percent of the incentive grants given out by that government agency - I sort of question the real value and the real intent of these incentive grants if that is the particular case, because it seems to me that we're transferring from one government agency to another to make some of them possibly look a little better than they should.

And I'd like the Minister to just explain, or try and answer how many of these companies that did receive incentive grants are affiliated in any way with the MDC or with the government itself. MR . EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I would have to take that q•.iestion as notice. We'd have to go over the list and check to find out which ones have received .•. You said not only equity but also companies which had received a loan from MDC, and so we would have to check the list appropriately and then give you the answer. I can't give it to you immediately. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR . HARRY E.

GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Mr. Chairman, I'm not too sure if the sub ject matter I want to bring forward at this time comes under Science and Technology. I was looking for a column that really listed bad advice and mismanagement, but I can't seem to find it here, so I thought maybe it might be under Science and Technology.

Sir, a few years ago the Department of Industry and Commerce went out, along with the Department of Agriculture, and also the Clean Environment got a little kick in here too, and they thought it would be a good idea in Manitoba to develop an industry that would remove dead livestock from the farm areas, clean up the environment, turn it into a viable business venture, and in fact everybody would be happy, everything would come up peaches and cream. Sir, I don't think that has really occurred. MR . EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, on a point of order, and I appreciate hearing the member's comments, but I'm wondering, if he is going to talk about the food industries, that there is an item on Food Industries. We're on Science and Technology which is the Manitoba Research Council and its activities, the Science and Technology Branch. If you're talking about the food industries, there is an item under Trade and Industry Group. MR . GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm glad to see that the Minister has now realized that it's in the food industry that we get most of the mismangement and poor advice. MR. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister is correct in suggesting that this particular subject that the member is raising comes under Food Industries, because it would seem to me that animals that are going to be removed would hardly be - or animals that have died and be removed for environmental purposes are hardly

May 6, 1975 SUPPLY - INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) •..•. going to be used for food. If that is happening then perhaps we have some more questions to ask of the Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. 21 23 MR. EVANS: I would agree with the honourable member, but I thought the honourable member was going to start talking about rendering factori es, rendering plants in the province where these animals could be taken to.

But on the other hand if he's talking about technological de velopments and the application of scientific techniques to industry, well, this is the items you'd bring it up undero Perhaps this is what he was going to talk about, I don't know. MR. JORGENSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I' ll gladly wait and maybe it'll come under Design and Marketingo MRo CHAIR MAN: The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MRo JAMES Ro FERGUSON (Gladstone): Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I was wanting to enquire about a specific industry, or a plant. Under what

section would I do that ? This would be a small loans agreement. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MRo EVANS: Mr. Chairman, the department does not lend money to enterprises. This is through the Manitoba Development Corporation which is under the Minister of Mines and Resources. MDC operations are under the Minister of Mines and Resources. MRo FERGUSON: ..• business, Mr. Minister. MRo EVANS: Well, if it's in the general area of assistance to small business, that was under Item 2(

b) Management, Productivity and Manpower. I itemized for the Honourable Member for La Verendrye the various acti vities under that vote, and I indicated a small business centre was in there was well. MRo CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James. MRo MlNAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a few q.-iestions for the Honourable Minister relating to the Manitoba Research Co uncil and they cover several subjects, so I think maybe if I might just ask pertaining to the one area and then have an answer from the Minister.

Particularly, I'm looking at the year end annual report for '74, and under the Manitoba Research Council a subject, "Vegetable Products Development Program", and there's a grant of $46, OOO from the Manitoba Government to MRC, and I'm wondering if the Minister could advise .. o in the comment it says that "the program has the following purpose to provide technical assistance to Manitoba companies that are at present involved in proces sing vegetables. " And I'm wondering if he can advise what companies have benefitte d by this particular grant and information from the Manitoba Research Council.

MRo CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, my information is that this include d a grant - not a grant, but a payment of moneys to assist in the hiring of technical staff at the Morden Food Research Station, the Agriculture Research Station, which works specifically on some developme ntal problems for Morden Fine Foods Li mited in the improvement and the extension of the variety of food products that could be made at the plant at Morden .

I also understand some assistance has been made available also in the Pembina Valley area with regard to other types of food products. MR. MlNAKER: So then, Mr. Chairman, if I understand the Honourable Minister correctly , the $46, OOO is a grant to provide technical assistance to the Morden Fine Foods. Is this correct ? MR. EVANS: This was not a grant to Morden Fine Foods. It was an expenditure of money to retain the technical personnel who would work, using the facilities made available, free of charge, by the Federal Government' s Agriculture Research Station.

That research work, this practical food processing research work was to be made available essentially for Morde n Fine Foods. I believe that tech:iical assistance was made available to other areas in the Pembina Valley area. The item likely refers to a grant to the MRC for a two-year contract to hire a food technologist - one food technologist and one technical assistant for a period of two years. MRo MlNAKER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I can't quite interpret this statement then, because what it says in your year-end report is that "a gra nt of $46 , OOO from the Manitoba Government to MRC is being used to carry out a two-year program using physical facilities available to MRC by the Research Station at Morden, staffed by a food technolo gist and

21 24 May 6, 1975 SUPPLY - INDUSTRY AND COMME RCE (MR. MINAKER cont'd) .. '. .• technician. " Now, here's what I can't understand. It says: "The program has the following purposes such as, to provide technical assistance to Manitoba compimies " - it's plural - "that are at present involved in processing vegetables.

" I ask the Minister: is the only people utilizing these services, or have it available to them, Morden Foods, which is wholly owned by MDC, or can people like Carnation Foods also get this information, that we would presume that when the statement is "Manitoba companies " that it's available not only to the government-owned plant, but also to other companies that are involved in the business. MR. EVANS: Yes, it's available to all companies in Manitoba. MR. MINAKER: Yes. Has the Honourable Minister had any requests front other companies in that particular field for assistance from this program ? MR.

EVANS: Well, you know, they wouldn't necessarily come to my office. But I'm advised by my staff here that there have been requ ests from other companies, a number of other requests. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Chairman, have these companies received the information that they've requested and the assistance under this program? MRo EVANS: The Lord above tells me, yes, yes, most seriously - more seriously, Mr. Chairman, the answer is yes. MRo MINAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Further on in the same

section of the annual report there is a subject, "Canadian Food Products Development Centre " and if we interpret it correctly there is a commitment on the part of the Manitoba Rese arch Council to initial funding of 400, OOO per year for a five-year program. I'm wondering if possibly the Minister could expand on this particular project becuase if we understand what is said here in print, it looks like a commitment of $2 million, and we would like to know where this program will be carried out, its location, and what industry or companies might benefit by this program ? MR. EVANS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, this Food Product Centre is still in the formation stages. You may recall that at the Western Economic Opportunities Conference the Federal Minister, the Honourable Alastair Gillespie made reference to the fact that the Federal Government was prepared to work with the Manitoba Government through our Department of Industry and Commerce in the establishment of a Canadian Food Pr oducts Development Centre, and this was subsequently consummated. Agreement was made and the commitment is for 20 0, OOO per year from each level of government for a total of 400 , OOO per year for a five-year peri od.

So that's how you get the $2 million. Manitoba's portion is 50 percent of that, or $1 million to be spent over a five�year period. There were a couple of pilot projects undertaken during the past year: One relates to the investigation of pickling of cucumbers, and the other relates to a program of manufacturing dill oil. I can give the honourable members a lot more detail if they're interested, but the point being that this information is being made available to various groups in the province that .are interested in this type of activity.

For example, there is a specific group that is interested in going ahead with a pickling operation in the province. We used to have one years ago and it was phased out by a large Canadian corporation. However, we think there's some opportunity, and that is a specific example. The point I want to make, however, is that the work of that centre is available and is essentially for all Canadian companies, because it is financed by the Federal Government.

So there is a possibility that we could develop some expertise in food technology that, you know, is not here at the present time o I'm not suggesting we don't have a head start in food technology in this area, but this centre could be the basis of an expansion of food technology in this area. I think I should also - I'd be very remiss in saying that there's a considerable benefit in these two types of products to the farming sector, to the agriculture sector of course.

You know, there is a great spin-off and in some ways perhaps there's as much benefit, perhaps more benefit, on the growing side as there is on the manufacturing side. I think your colleague , the Member from Pembina would agree that growers in that area, in the Morden area, farmers in that area do benefit from the existence of that processing facility at Morden. So the benefit to the province isn't simply the manufacturing, but it's also the related agriculture growing activity which could not take place, or which would not take place if the processing facility wasn't in place.

May 6, 1975 SUPPLY - INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE MR. MINAKER: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Kmourable Minister would advise us where this centre is going to be located. I did not - at least I did n't believe I heard him say where it was to be located. 21 25 Further, is there any capital commitme nt ? I would be led to believe that the 20 0, OOO per year for the next five years would be your operating costs. I'm wondering, is there going to be any capital expenditure on the part of the province for this centre and also where it's located in Manitobao MRo EVANS: Well, as I said, we are still in the formative stages.

The work has essentially been done in the Winnipeg area. There is no capital commitment as yet. MRo MINAKER: Yes, thank you Mr. Chairman. Another subject under Manitoba Research Council is the titl e , "O ptimization of Whey Management in Manitoba. " There• s a $1 7, OOO grant, dealing with the drying techniques for whey concentration and stabiliz ation of the product. I wonder if the Minister could advise the House if the experiment was successful, and what the recommendations were from that particular study that was carried on at the Univer 3it y of Manitoba.

There is a particular interest involved in this, as the Honourable Minister realizes, because of the situation that presently exists with a question mark on whether there's a whey plant to be established at Selkirk, Manitoba, and also the indication from the government's side that dry ing whey is not an economical type of venture on a small scale or individual plant basis. So, we're quite interested in knowing what the results of that particular study were, and whether they would be available publicly to members of the House. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the actual project which the honourable member is referring to is the responsibility of the Minister of Agriculture who is responsible for the Milk Control Board of Manitoba. This expenditure, this activity was a technical study , it was a technical study. I understand that the study is not complete, and it, I'm sure, is of some use to those people on the milk board or the people, rather, who are concerned with the possibility of setting up a whey plant. This was a supported type of study.

It was a technical study that was carried out and it's, as I am advised, it's not completed as yet, so I can't tell you what the conclusions are. But I believe it's not a study that' s related to location necessar ily, or to the general economics of the matter. MRo MINAKER: Surely, Mr. Chairman, I didn' t hear the Honourable Minister correc tly.

I would hope that his department isn't operating in isolation with another department on partic ular research projects that have interrelation, because if I understood the Minister correct ly, Mro Chairman, what he has said, that this particular grant and study has no economic bearing on the whey plant that is being considered at the present time. So my question is, what was the grant for then if there wasn't some kind of a communication between his department and the Department of Agriculture ?

I would think that that should be corrected imrnediatel y because I even as a layman, would believe that if it's feasible to dry whey and you have research work being done on this, that surely the report would become valuable to any other department of the government that would be considering spending 7 to 9 million dollars on a plant; and if there was a solution other than what is presently being suggested by the government, then I think it would be the responsibility of this Minister to make sure that the Honourable Minister of Ag:i.'iculture got this report so that they could compare this, and I would hope that in future his department, when they 're dealing with research grants, would make sure that the type of research that' s being done is made available to those departments that could util ize the benefits of it, otherwise as far as I could see you'r e giving money away for no good really other than just to get some research work done and put away on a shelf somewhere.

MRo EVANS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm afraid the honourable member misLmderstood me, or perhaps he did n't hear my statement, but ther e' s no suggestion that this is done in isolation. The fact is that it is fully supportive of the type of enterprise-that the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture is concerned with. But I would emphasize again that this was with regard to the technical aspects of the whey drying process, the industrial processing in technical terms; we have made information that has become available on an interim basis to the department. So therefore there is close co-operati on.

It is not being done in isolation whatsoever. MRo MINA KER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Honourable Minister could advise if his department, whether it would be the Research Council, o:i' if his de partment has assisted in the setsction of hardware to dry whey ? Have: they assisted the Department of

2126 May 6, 1975 SUPPLY - INDU STRY AND COMMERCE (MR. MIN AKER cont 'd) .... Agriculture in the pursuit of getting estimates for drying whey or proces sing whey, and if so, could he elaborate on that, and if in fact, has there been any pur chase to date of such equipment ? MR . EVANS: Yes. Well, I am advised, Mr. Chairman, that the department has assisted the people who are responsible for this in the Department of Agriculture. They have assisted them in, that is, in providi ng advice and information. I can't answer the questions about ex penditure.

This is a matter that should be dealt with under the Department of Agriculture. MR. MINAK.8R: I wond er, Mr . Chairman, if the Honourable Minister could advise us where the particular moneys to cover this assistance are located in his estimates, and how much is it covered - or how much cost is there to cover this particular assistance ? MR . EVANS: Yes , the appropriate item would be under the Trade and Industry Group, Vote 68,

Section (

b) Food Industries. There were no moneys paid out as such for this in the way of a grant or what have you, the assistance that is provided by the industrial consu ltants in the department that are specializing in food products. MR. MINAKER : I wonder if the Minister could advise the estimated man-hours that are involved in the assistance to the particular proj ect; also I wonder if he 'd advise if a recom mendation has been made to purchase certain types of drying equipment. Has his department made this recomme ndation, and has the purchase actually taken place ? MR.

EVANS: Well, on his first two question s, I'll take them as not ice. I'll have to find out. With regard to the last, I do n't know what the answer is but I would suggest again that that matter of the actual purchase of equipment is a question that would properly be asked of the Minister of Agriculture who is re sponsible in this case. MR. MINAKER : Mr. Chairman, I think it would be in order to ask the Honourable Minis ter if his department has made a recomme ndation to the department with regard to the type of equipment to purchase. I think that would be in order. MR . EVANS: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I have taken this earlier

section as notic e, and I'll try to supply the answer. MR . MIN AKER : Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The next item under Manitoba Res earch Council is the subject, Development of a Mechanical Continuous Proces sing of Wild Rice, I noticed there is a grant of $40, 650 made to investigate some mechanical means of picking wild rice, if I understand it corr ectly. I'm wondering if the Minister could elaborate on this parti cular subject.

Also, how this might affect our native people who do make consid erable living out of picking wild rice by hand under the present scheme, and I just want to know whether there'd be a tie-in with the native people on this proj ect, or was it in isola tion ? MR . EVANS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'v e been asked some detailed questions here, and I'd like to give the honourable member an accurate detailed answer, and I will do so, therefore I take that as notice also, and will supply it at an appropriate time, certainly if not befor e getting off this item we can always do it under the Minister's salary. MR .

MINAKER : Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The next question related to - we have a varied, I might add, research going on in our province as we're happy to see, and I even see we're now involv ed in encour aging sheep to reproduc e, and I'm wondering under the subject, Enhanced Productivi ty in Sheep Breeding, I'm wonde ring how much this particular grant was for, and if the Minister has any information on the type of results that were forthcoming because it indicates here, "Initial results are encouraging" which could almost mean anything, that it means maybe you 're getting many black sheep or a few, and so forth, and we're just wondering if maybe the Minister might elaborate on just how much was the grant for this particular project and what the results were.

MR. EVANS: Yes. As I understand, Mr. Chairman, if my memory serves me correc tly there wasn't one grant made, there have been several grants made over some years. I will endeavour to get at least a

summary of the results of that particular project and make it avail able to the honourable member. MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honour a ble Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, further to the Manitoba Research Council, I notice there 's several other companies that have government affiliation such as Alphametrics which received a $ 25, OOO grant, and I would ask the Minister at this time, the Vortex Design in Steinbach received a grant, and I wonder if he could inform the House as to how much that grant was. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Minister of Industry and Com merce.

May 6, 1975 2127 SUPPL Y - INDUSTRY AND COMME RCE MR . EVANS: This is Vortex Des ign in Steinbach - I'm advised that the grant was not proceeded with, therefore they received no funds. MR . BANMA N: Out of the few questions we' ve asked here, Mr.

Chairman, I think ther e's a concern on this side of the House that we would like to know how much of the time and energ y devoted by the Industr y and Comm erc e, whether it be through the personnel in the department and through the gra nt structure, how much of that time, and how much of the gra nts, indeed , go to a governm ent or a governm ent affiliated service such as Manitoba Development Corpo ration ? I note that when we start looking at a thing like Crocus Food s, which the Member from St.

James was just talking about, you can look at the annual report of the Industry and Commerce and you notice such things that the de partment has, and I read from the departm ent: "It further contributed in a substantial way to rural employment. " And then the seco nd item under that particular thing says, "A Whey Milk Powder Facility in Selkirk.

" It also de fines a directorship in Crocus Foods in Selkirk, and here we have a $ 17, OOO gra nt which went to the production of - or to the examination of drying techniques of whey, and we realize that in Mani toba right now, and things being the way they are with regard to the Crocus Food Plant, there is re ally nobody in the province that would take advantage of this technical information, because the private industry in Manitoba is being discouraged from even entering into installing whey producing faciliti es, and we've been all through that during the last several weeks.

So I think there 's a question here that pos sibly the Minister could try and get his depart ment to get for us, and I would like to know the criteria for the different types of gra nts such as the inc entive gra nts. I would like to know if all governm ent agencies are qualified for these inc entive gra nts. I think we should have a rough idea of how much time his de partment is spending on inter-governm ental affairs, as far as looking after and trying to keep some of the floundering industries in a state of --(I nterj ection) -- flux, yes, that's about it.

I think that sufficie nt questions have been asked with regard - and we've just mentioned a couple here, and we 've just scra tched the surface I think - Morden Fine Food s, the 47, OOO and I think if you go down the list here you can notice there's quite a few agencies that are involved with the govern ment, and I would ask the Minister to try and get us some information along that line. MR . EV ANS: Well, Mr . Chairman, the honourable member asks a very general que stion, how many of our resou rces, how much of our total resource capability is dedica ted to ass isting MDC owned operations?

And that's a very di fficult thing to precisel y me asure. It 's one thing to indicate the grants that were made to companies that either had a loan or had some equity from MDC , but it 's another thing to precisely calculate the amount of resources dedica ted. We don 't say, "He re are a group rif consultmts that are made available to MDC finance companies. " That is not the way we operate. We operate on a sector basis; we operate on a regional basis, and so on.

Our focus should surely be to provide the best possi ble technical and economic assi stance, advice, that we can to all Manitoba industry , because I remind the honourable member the man who works for Morden Fine Foods, and the people who operate Morden Fine Foods are entitled to the servicres of this departm ent as much as a private company. I would remind honourable members that there are many private companies that flounder too. This is the name of the gam e. This is the name of the game of free enterprise. It 's the fact of the matter that com panies rise and companies fall, companies rise and companies fall.

The only point, of course, is that the honourable members are not as aware of business failures in the pri vate sector, and we do our very best to help all indust ries, and surely the honourable member is not suggesting for one single mome nt that we refuse to help Morden Fine Foods Limited if, for some reason, we can be of some assi st�nc e. Surely you're not suggesting that. But that seems to be implied in your remarks. Surely you'r e not suggesting that the department not help McKenzie Seeds Limited.

I think that that com pany, providing as it does hundreds of jobs for the people in Bra ndon , I think it's as des erving of attention as any of these companies listed here that have no MDC involvement whatsoever.

On the specific question that was asked earlier as to which of these companies that had rec eived payments under the de partment 's Incentive Grants Program, which of these companies had either a loan or an equity payment from MDC, I can indicate at this time just running down the list: Warner Internati onal, but I believe this loan has now been paid off; Alphametrics Limited is another that has rec eived MDC support; Lambskin Specialties Limited had received MDCs support, but that is now paid off; I mean by paid off - I' m just go ing to check here - yes, as I thought, the MDC loan, the note I have here , it says "paid off" meaning that the MDC loan

2128 May 6, 1975 SUPPL Y - INDUSTRY AND CO MME RC E (MR. EVANS cont'd) .... that had been received was paid off by this particular com pany, Lambskin Specialties Limited. Federal Pioneer Limited, this was a lease arra ngem ent; H. Singer Furniture Limited, but that's another loan of the MDC that's been fully paid off - you see there are some very succes sful loans. Flyer Industries Limite d; Benco Compon ent Industries Limited were recipie nt of a loan, I believe; North American Laboratories and - well, A. E.

McKenzie Limited; Jara Steel Industri es, a venture of Manitoba Tours, that's the Lord Selkirk boat; and Verne Labs Limited; and then Manitoba Forest Re sources, that was formerly known as the CF I complex at The Pas. MR . BANM AN : Mr.

Chairman, I think, when we talk about things like industrial develop ment in this province, and things which we see are going on rig ht now, such as the Minister has just admitted, that they were quite compr ehensively involved in the possible est ablishment of a food plant in Selkirk, namely, Crocus Foods, and when we realize that that food plant is going to seriously jeopardize the industry in rural Manitoba, the small co-ope ratives, and there 1 s no question about it, I question very seriousl y what kind of industrial development the Minister is trying to undertake.

The Minister has just named off severa l companies here that rece ived the inc entive gra nts, and I notice that - and I haven 't had a chance to add it up, but I would say a good third, if not more of these companies did receive MDC funding. So I'm wondering if MDC funded companies have an advantage as far as the criteria for these inc entive gra nts are concerned over companies who do not receive any governm ent assis tanc e at all. MR . EVANS: No, Mr. Chairman, that is not the criteria.

With regard to the whey plant I would advise the honourable member again that I, or this department, is not responsible for that particular project. That is not in the estimates of this departme nt, and it is not an activity or an enterprise that has been put in place by this particular Minister. MR . BANMAN : But as the Minister of Industry and Comme rce, and concerned about rural development, and about the stay-option program, has the Minister not done any studies, or is the Minister not aware of what can happen to rural Manitoba if this governme nt should go into a multi-million dollar plant ?

They 've gone ahead and they 've helped the Cr ocus Food people to draw up a DREE gra nt, and it 's mentioned here in the annual report. They said that they 've, in a substantial way, helped the people over there apply for a DREE grant, and now he says that it's not his de partment, it 's the Minister of Agriculture. And yet it 's Industry and Commerce, because the people in my area and the people in rural Manitoba are concerned that they retain the busines ses that are there prese ntly. And you can 't have it both ways.

You can't centralize all these businesse s and let all these people go out of work in the rural areas , and the Minister knows very well that there 's only a certain amount of milk in Manitoba. But you ci:n't go ahead and close your eyes on the one har.d and say, "T he Minister of Ag ricultur e, that 1 s his baby, I have nothing to do with it. 11 The thing that we're after right now - and I think we might as well put it on the line here - what will be the effect ?

Has the Minister 1 s dep artment, out of all the profess ional fees that he 's paid and everything, has the Minister 's de partment made a study to see what the effect will be on New Bothwell, on Grunthal, on Arborg, on Brandon, on all the different plants ? MR . CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I rep eat that as a service de partment we 'r e prepared to help companies that are in the private and in the public sector.

Of the grants that have been made, the number of gra nts that have been ma de, I gath er, just as a rough, quick calculation, 85 perce nt of the grants were to the private sector , rather not to the private sector, 85 perc ent were to companies that had no involvement with the MDC . Many of those companies that I have referred to as being financed to some degree by the MDC are privately-owned companies that obtained a loan, and I dare say a lot of them had obtained loans long ago , maybe 10, 15 years ago , for all I know. I don 't know.

But don't infer that all of those companies that are referred to are owned by the MDC , because they are not. In fact there 's only two or three or four of them. The bulk of them have had loans from the MDC . Well I don't know what the honourable members are saying but, you know, one day you' re saying the MDC should be more active in lending money to enterprises to help them ... You haven't said that ? Well, that's not what I heard. At any rate, Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to debate the whey plant but I want to re mind the honourable members that the origina tion of the idea of a whey and milk powder plant came about because of a pollution problem which we were apprised of by the Environm ental Manage ment people, a very serious pollution problem that was occu rring all over this province. And

May 6, 1975 212 9 SUPPL Y - INDUSTRY AND COMMERC E (MR. EVANS cont'd) .... there is a cost involved in disposi ng - in fact, there 's going to be an increasing cost of dispo sing of the whey, and the idea then is surely very admirable that we would assist, virtually assist these companies by taking their waste products away from them at no charge, ther eby helping to resolve a pollution problem, helping to resolve a cost to those particular compani es , and making som ething valuable from that waste product.

At any rate, while I'm on the subject, I had been asked specifically about the machinery for the plant, and my information is that the machinery has not been ordered. But again, this item is an item, as I said, which is under the jurisd iction of the Minister of Agriculture. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR . EINAR SON : Mr . Chairman, I think we 'r e engaged on a very very important debate here in regard to the Minister of Industry and Commerc e's departm ent.

I would like to know first, before we pursue any further, whether the people he had doing the survey or investigation as to the feasibility on the res earch of whey in this province, did he send any of his people to Swift Curre nt, Saskatchewan, where there is a cheese -proc essi ng plant, that have equipment in that plant that are processi ng and dry-processi ng whey , and did he do any investigating on that ? MR . EVANS: Well, Mr. Chairman, as I said, we did do this technical study - it wasn' t a feasibility study per se.

When I think of a feasibility study, I think of an economic study - you know, the costs, the revenues, the costs , etc. , and the ability to have a profitable or viable operation. I will have to check to see whether the people that had done this technical rese arch on whey-drying methods and methodolog y , whether they did go to Swift Curre nt or not. I really don 't know. But I' ll try to find out for the honourable member. MR . EINAR SON : Well, Mr.

Cha irman, for the information of the Minister of Industry and Commerce, I can tell him that people who are employed in the First Minister 's department here in Manitoba own the cheese plant in Swift Curi 'ent. They have equipment in that plant whereby they are dry-processi ng the whey , and they are selling it out to the farmers in the community as a feed for hogs. And I'm given to understa nd - and I could be cor rected if I'm wrong on this, Mr.

Chairma n - but I understa nd that that plant in Swift Current was also in terested in getting into the hog business to utilize the by-products they were produc ing from that plant. And I would suggest to the Minister of Industry and Commerce ... and I'm wonder ing if he sent anybody over to Europe to investigate this whole matter. We 're getting the kind of answers from hi.m as we were getting from the Minister of Agriculture. A snow job , if you want to put it very mildly. But I want to say, Mr.

Chairman, that in the report of the Manitoba Department of Industry and Commerce, it states under Food and Beverages, which are an im - port'lnt item in his department, and I'm going to quote here from the report, Mr . Chairma n: "T o further contribute in a substantial way to rural employment, the Branch focused attention on the following opportunities which .have a significa nt employment potential." Now, Mr. Chairman, I think this is a vi:ry import ant item, this clause here, because it refers to : "2. A whey milk powder plant" in Celkirk.

When the Minister was <loin!! this re search, and he talks about an import ance of the employment that it's going to crea te in a com munity, namely, in this case, Selkirk, did he also concern himself ... ? MR . CHAIRM AN: Order. The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS : The honourable member is now discussi ng the whole area of food processi ng food industri es, and there is an item on the budget for that. We got into this because we are discussing Manitoba Res earch Council and they did do a technical study on whey-drying methods.

And if you want to confine your rem arks to that, I would think it would be in order, but if you want to get into the whole area of food-proces sing econ omics and the development of food proces sing throughout Manitoba, that would be more appropriately discussed under the item of Food Industr ies, under the Trade and Industry Group. MR . CHAIRM AN : The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR . EINAR SON : Well, J\fr. Chairman, I think the Minister is starting to become very technical here.

Science and Technology , I think, is re lative to the i-es earch that he 's been doing in regard to this whey produ ct , and I think it do es have re lative significance to this particular area when we're talking about the employment that it is going to benefit mainly in the Town of Selkirk from this res earch that is being done. Because I think that if the re search says to hi.m that it's not feasible to put this plant in Selkirk --(I nterj ection s) -- Well, Mr. Chairman, the 1\Iinis ter says it's not a feasibility study. I realize it 's a rese arch study to decide whether or not it's

2130 May 6, 1975 SUPPLY - INDUSTRY AND COMMERCE (MR . EINARS ON cont'd) .... practical and economical to produce a by-product from the whey , and the Minister himself indicated that we have 'l concern here and the reason we are doing this is beca use of the Cl ean Environment Co mmis sion. He made those comme nts him self just a few mome nts ago, that he was doing this because of the Cl ean Environm ent Commis sion indic ating to the Minister of Agriculture that there was a problem in these various cheese-p rocess ing plants throughout the provinc e.

And I say to the Minister of Industry and Comme rce that many of these plants have overcome this problem, and I tried to tell the Minister of Ag riculture that. These plants , having overcome the environmental problem, are fully aware and know what it is and how to go about produ cing a by-product from whey, made an application to the Minister of Agr iculture to put in the equipment, and the Minister of Ag riculture turned them down.

And so I'm wondering why this Minister of Industry and Commerce - I think he 's part of the same government - did the Minister of Industry and Commerce not have any consu ltation with the Minister of Agr iculture when he embarked on the resea rch study that was made of this particu - lar product ? l/.lR. CHAIRM AN: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce . MR . EVANS : I'm sorry , I didn't hear the last ... I believe there was a question asked at the very end and I didn't hear that, I'm sorry. MR . EINARS ON: Yes. I was saying, Mr.

Chairman, in view of the res earch that the Minister of Industry and Commerce is doing on this product, did he not have any consultation with the Minister of Ag riculture before embarking upon such a program, spending all the money that my colle ague from St. James has mentioned this afternoon, my colleague from La Verendrye, I'm wondering: did the two ministers not get together to discuss this matter ?

Because I think they have a relationship as to the importance of this particular industry, be cause it not only applies to Industry and Commerce, but also he 's been made plenty aware of the importanc e that it applies to the industry in agricultur e, namely the dairy producers of this province, and the pro cesso rs. MR. EVANS : Yes , Mr. Speaker , there was cons ultation and discus sion by means of a Cabinet sub-committee. MR. EINARS ON : Mr .

Chairman, I don't understand, then, if the re search that has been done - and in talking about the research, the Minist er as he draws up and you read his report, he relates the ben efits from it - I'm wondering how you put the two together here, when you talk about the resea rch being done on this particular matter and other foods have been mentioned and directed to the Mini ster 's attention and the relative importance that that re search has , with the resu lts that may be incurred and the effect that they may have on the res pective areas.

In this case, we have Selkirk versus all the areas of Manitoba where they are in the business of proces sing this product, and I'm wondering if the Minister, if that's his complete responsi bility, namely the research part of it, is the Minister of Agr iculture taking full responsi bility for all the other conseq uences that may materializ e, and the losses that may be incurred by all these plants that are in the business of proces sing now ?

I fail to understand why the Minis ter is engaging upon spending this kind of money doing resea rch when the private plrints that are now in oper ation can give him the answers if he's gone out to see them. This is what I don 't understand, Mr . Chairman. MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I take responsi bility, along with the Minister of Agriculture, as a member of a government that makes a decisi on or other, and ther e's no mistake about that.

But I sim ply repeat that if you're talking about the Manitoba Res earch Council, the activities under it, as I said, the study related not to economic location but to various ways and means of processi ng of this by-product - or actually this pollution product, because that's what it has been. And it's been a serious problem in many communities. So I just repeat that this particular branch, the Manitoba Resea rch Co uncil which we're now discussi ng, is engaged in the technical aspects.

I'm informed that the project that specifically we'r e referring to, the project was related to the stabilization of whey so it could be stored for proces sing or for transpor tation, either in a diluted or in a partially conc entrated form. Apparently there are succes sful methods for pres erving the whey. These have been developed, we'r e advised, and they 're available for use for a plant that has to be of a size that could be considered economic. As I' ve said - well, I said this previously.

The project was strictly a sc ientific project but the information was made available to the Departm ent of Agricult ure . I believe we 've run out of time, so I'l l. ..

May 6, 1975 2131 SUPPL Y - INDUSTRY AND COM MERCE MR . CHAIRM AN : Order please. The hour being 4: 30, I'm interru pting the proceedi ngs in accordance with our Rule 19 (2) for Pri vate Members ' Hour, and shall return to the Chair at 8: 00 P. M. this evening. . . . . continued on next page

2132 May 6, 1975 PRIVATE MEMBERS' HOUR MR, SPEAKER: Order please. Pr ivate Members' Hour Tuesday. The first it em, Pr ivate Bills. Bi ll No. 23, the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. PR IVATE BILL NO, 23 - ST, ANDREWS-RIVER HEIGHTS FOUNDATI ON MR, AXWORTHY (For t Rouge) pres ented Bill No. 23,

an Act to incorporate the St. Andrews-River Heights Foundation , for second reading. MOTION pres ent ed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY : Mr. Speaker, I take some pleasure in having the opportunit y to introduce this bill, which was

an Act to establish a foundation for the purposes of supporting the work of St. Andrews- River Heights Church.

I would like to tak e the opportunity in pre senting this bill to just comment , if I may, on the interest ing possibilities and develop ments that many churches in this city are entering into as conditions change and the kinds of dem and s of the community change, that throughout Winnipeg there has been, I believe, a very important and very essentially beneficial contribution being made by churches in the capacity of entering into a number of very important social activities , housing proj ects, medical and health con cer ns, and that the organization - in this case the United Church , organizations such as the United Church Urban Council - have become in many cases the sponsors and catal ysts for some of the most interest ing work in social and urban probl ems.

I think that one of the reasons why this is true and one of the reasons why this has happened, is that the churches are blessed with a degree of independence and flexibility, which in large

part can be gained as the result of their degree of financial independence, and tha t while they rel y upon the contribution and support of private individual s, I believe, Mr. Speaker, that this is in many cases becoming a lost art in our community. We have commented many times in this House that there is an increas ing tenden cy for the assumption to be that govern ment will solve all problems in all ways for all people, and that this is simply not so, and we realize the dangers of such thing s.

And I think theref ore it is essential that this House recognize the kind of work that can be undertaken by reli gious organizations as well as other kinds of private voluntary groups of people who come together out of some sense of purpose to serve their community and serve other people. So that the purpose behind this foundation is to allow the St. Andrews-River Heights Church, which is one of the more notable and out standing churches in our community, to pursue it s own work in its own way. The bill itself is being brought into this House partic ularl y, Mr.

Speaker, because of the require ment for it to be able to maintain it s funds in perpetuity, and this is one reason why it 's not being intr oduced under the Companies Act , which would normally be the ca se, that if things wind down , what ever funds are donated to this particular foundation would then revert back to the Winnipeg Pres bytery of the United Church, which I believe explains why in fact it is being introduced in this House, because it doesn't quite fit the require ments of the Companies Act in th at one respect only, that if there are funds, that they would then be maintained in perp etuity for the use of the church rather than being wound down under the ord ers of the Com panies Act.

I' d also like to indicate , Mr. Speaker, that the Honourable Member from St. Johns had express ed some concern to me earlier about the title of the bill, suggesting that within the title of the bill the word "church" be included so as not to provide any mislead ing advertis ing, which he is, I know, obviously concerned about. I think that the sponsors of this bill are certainly agreeable to that and I would suggest that, if this is a concern, that it could be well taken care of in the committ ee stage of the bill. So , Mr.

Speaker, I would recommend this bill to the acceptance of the House so that the kind of act ion and cont ribution being made by one of the more outst anding churches in our community may be maintained , and that it can draw into it s work to the use of a foundation , private moneys for that purpose . And I would only like to offer, by way of argu ment or by way of evide nce, th at there is in the City of Winnipeg, at least to my knowledge, two other founda tions of a similar kind. I believe Gr ace United Church has a similar foundation. I believe We stminster has.

And I can only tes tify that I know that the work of those two particular institutions has been assisted by the existence of the foundation that can act as a place for donations of pr ivate members, so I would thi nk that this is the kind of bill that will go some small part towards furthering the ability to maintain the activity of churches in our communit y and to even provide gre at er assistance in their future kind of activity.

May 6, 1975 2133 BILL 23 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SA UL CH ERNIACK , Q. C. (St. Johns) : Mr. Speaker , I have discusse d this bill with the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, as he indicated. A couple of matters that I was wond ering about; one was not the title of the bill , but rather the title of the foundation itself. Th e title of the bill is not conseq uential. But I did sugg est that there should not be confusion in the mind s of people who are donating or contributing , or recipients of the benefits of the foundation, that they should know cl early that it is the St.

Andr ews-River Heights United Ch urch Found ation, and my suggestion was the name of the foundation as in the bill set out, not the title. I don't know whether the Member for Fort Rouge sees that that is of any impor tance, I mean that ther e' s any objection to that , but that is what I would propose and I believe would be acce ptable. Se condly, Mr.

Speaker , I think you know that for the last number of years we've been trying to div ert bills that are pri vate bills that need not come before the Legi slature if they could get their incorporation through the Companies Act , in order to save the Legisla ture the time for what is often a technical and a nominal purpose .

I am infor med , as was the Member for Fort Rouge, that the rea son that this could not be under the Companies Act is that the Com panies Act cannot authorize, that a company incorporated under the Companies Act shall not be bound by the rule against perpetuities and accumulations, which means that we in the Legisl ature are now charged with the res ponsibility somehow of setting asid e the rule against perp etuities and accumulations in connection with a particular corporation. It makes me wonder, Mr.

Speaker, how many of us really know what the rule against perpetuities and accumulations is and why it exists at all, and why therefore should we be bound to conside r it and theref ore say, all right, in this case it is advisable so to do.

I have already sugg ested to the Minister for Consumer Affair s, and possi bly the Pr ivate Bi lls Co mmittee could consider th is, whether the Companies Act itself should not be amended so as to enable the incorporatio n, through the Com panies Act, of a charitable, educational or religious foundation, which would have the power through the Com panies Act to have the rule against perp etuities set aside.

I imagine he'll be revi ewing that with officials of the - or I think I also sugge sted , I did sugg est that the Law Reform Commis sion have a look at it and see, firstly, should the rule apply at any time for religious, education al, charitable purposes, and if at no time need it apply, then possibly it should just be an amendm ent to the Companies Act so that we don't have to consider these bills from time to time. Having said that, it might be of some interest for the Pr ivate Bills Co mmittee to explore the ram ifications of setting asid e that rule.

Fr ankly, I see no objection whatsoever, in a case such as this, so to do. But pos sibly we in the Legis lature ought to have an attitude in that re gard. I'm happy that there are organizations that are ge aring themselves up to do more "go od works, " if I can put that phrase in quotations. I don't re ally know why the church needs a foundation to carry on, why it couldn't carry on just as a church, but I suppose it has its reasons. And again, it may be that the rule agains t perpetuities applies to churches as well, and frankly I don't know.

But it is a matter , it seems to me if we' re goin g to be pas sing on legisla tion, we should know why it's brought to us rather than to another avenue, and then if there's a specia l reason we should consider that as being a re ason that we have to pass on. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for For t Garr y. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I just intend to take a couple of minutes, but I wanted to address myself to the bill before us and the subject matter of same , and to ind icate to the mover of the legislation that it's the kind of legisla tion that I'm sure members of my Party can enthusia stically support.

We are very pleased to see the kind of principle embodied in this legislation being give n voice and being applied actively in the comm unity this way. We have felt for many many years now that there has be en too substantial a drift in our comm unity to dependency on governme nt, depend ency on welfare prog rams, dependency on assis tanc e programs funded and supported out of the public treasury, to too great an extent.

We have felt, traditionally and historically, in the Pr ogressive Conservative Party, that the most noble and the most uplifting kind of help and support that one member of the co mmunity can give another comes through individual and private activity of this kind wherever it is feasible and practical , and it ce rtainly is the kind of institution that I think comme nd s itself to all those who believe in the private and individual spirit of brotherhood and of initiative.

2134 May 6, 197 5 BILL 23 (MR. SHERMAN cont'

d) For that reason, notwithstanding some of the technical questions raised, such as that just introduced by the Honourable Member for St. Johns, I think I can say that tho se of us in this caucus , in this area of the Cham ber, are certainly in accord with the principles incor pora ted in this legislation. We would like to align ourselves with the objective.

We feel that, particularly in the urban centre of Greater Winnipeg, there is tremendous opportunity for individual assistance, individual initiative programs in the area of good works, waiting for persons such as tho se who would be participating in this particular found ation to undertake. For that reason and the earlier one mentioned having to do with the particular philo sophy that we bring to this who le question, Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend the mover of the bill for the legislation and its object ive, and I would hope that it will find speedy passage through this Chamber.

QUES TION put, MOTION carried. BILL NO. 25 - INVESTORS GROUP MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 25. The Honourab le Member for St. Johns. MR. CH ERNIACK pres ented Bill No. 25,

an Act to amend

an Act to Incorporate the Investor s Group, for second reading. MOTION prese nted. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERN IACK: Mr. Speaker, I'm going to have some difficulty here because what is being proposed here may read very clearly in English but it' s certainly not very understand able to me, and I assume to oth ers.

It is the proposal of the Investors Group to be given the author ity, through this bill, to increase the authorized capital by $1 million fro m $41 million to $42 million, by the creation of an additional 10 million of the comm on and 10 million of the co mmon Class A non-vo ting shares, each of a par value of five cents per share. Now honoura ble members may recall that I men tioned , in dealing with the previous bill, that it is desirable in my mind that bills should be steered through other avenues if possi ble, and not have to come to this Legislature and take up its time.

This com pany propo ses, through the bill, that for the purpose of securing future incr eases in capital or reclassifications of shares, it be per mitted to proc eed by way of application for Supplementary Letters Patent through the Registrar of Co mpanies rather than amendments to the Special Act of Incorpora tion passed by the Legislature. So that if this bill passes, then for changes in the capital structure of Investor s Group it would not be neces sary to come back to this Legislature, but rather it could be done through Supplementary Letters Patent through the Registrar of Co mpanies.

The only provision would be - and that again is in the bill - that such an application for variation must be suppo rted by at least two- thirds of the votes cast at a meeting of shareholders of the class of shares affected by the application, and which is called for that purpo se, so that there' s that precaution. Mr.

Speaker, the bill was prese nted for first reading and has then been held up until now to enable Investors Group to have its annual and special meeting at which the by-law authorizing the pres entation of this bill is passed by the shareho lders. · This was passed on the 28th day of April, 19 75, at a meeting, as is certified by the secretary of the com pany, and therefore it is now bro ught for second reading having been approved by the records of the majority of share ho lders. I will read an explanation that appears in the notice of the meeting. I can tell you in advance, Mr.

Speaker, that it is a very complicated one which I really don't fully compr ehend myself. I will read it into the record and I will inform honoura ble members that the secretary of the com pany and the solici tor for the company will have to be, and will be, prese nt at Pr ivate Bills Co mmittee in order to elaborate and explain any questions that are asked. Of cour se, if questions are asked during the debate on second reading, I'll try to make a note of them.

I'll try to get answers to give at the conclusion of second reading, but that would be secon d-hand answers that I would be bringing from the solicitor or secretary of the com pany, and I would rather think that a thorough discussion, if considere d advisable by any member, would be be st con ducted directly with repr esentatives of the com pany at co mmittee stage, assuming that it passes second reading. I want to read this explanation, which is rather short, and I don't vouch for it being

May 6, 1975 21 35 BILL 25 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd) ••••• easily unders tood: "By having two classes of common stock and tw o classes of common stock Cl ass A, the Board of Directors in each case could, in its discretion, declar e dividends to be paid out of 'tax paid undistribut ed surplus' as de fined in the Income Tax Act , to the holders of one class, and ordinary dividends to the holders of the other class.

Common and common Cl ass A shareholders would , under such an arrange ment , have the option of retaining their existing shares, or , if a shareholder deemed it to be in his int erest, of converti ng his existing shares to shares of a similar class, providing for the payment of tax paid dividends rather than ordinary dividends. " As I read this, Mr.

Speaker , the purpose is to give certain options to the company and/or to its sharehold ers, to take advantage of whatever tax laws are passed by the Federal Government to benefit holders of shares in companies, and since I consider , as a person who's been involved in taxation, that it is fair game to legally attempt to work one's affairs in such a way as to comply with the tax law and still take advantag e of the best of options given to them, th at that would be what they propose to do.

I do not nece ssarily favour the philosophy behind the kind of tax law that gives that kind of option, but as a court esy to Investors Group, and considering the pr esent tax laws and the natur e of corporate struct ures, I am pr esenting this bill suggesting that it should pass second reading , be referred to committ ee, and then further discussion can of course take place at the committ ee level in order to satisfy members.

May I say, however , that before agre eing to sponsor the bill, I did make enquiries from people, mainly in government, who would be concerned with making sure that the public is protected, that shareholders are protec ted, and I was given an affirmative opinion. Therefore, without hesitation, I commend the bill to the House. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry . MR, SHERMAN : Mr. Speaker, we certainly thank the Member for St.

Johns for his explanation of the legisla tion, and particularly for his note of assurance on which he ended his comments a moment ago, because when he suggests to us that it is complicated leg islation in the import and purport contained in it , he is certainly not exaggerating the fact , if anything he is doubtless under stating it.

And to have his assurance as he gave it to us, and to the House, in the concluding words of his stat ement of a few moments ago, is indeed helpful and re assur ing considering the fact that he held the portfolio of the Minister of Finance of this province for many year s, it is a reassurance that I think can be accepted and accommodated comfortably on this side of the House. We have amongst ourselves confessed to some confusion and to some puzzlem ent with respect to the purport of the legislation before us, and I am gl ad that the Minister has read into the record the brief explanation that he gave us.

I'm sure that all members will want to check Hansard and read and re- read that explanation in order to tr y to bring some understand ing to the particular bill where we ourselves are concerned . It was difficult to understand the explanation in the short time the Minister had at his disposal, to offer it to us - the former Minister had to offer it to us, but at least it 's on the record and we can now address ourselves to it in Hansard, Mr. Speaker, and do our best to comprehend the implications involved.

Further , the fact that an opportunity will be available through Pr ivate Bills Co mmitt ee for members to examine the legis lation even more fully, and to ask the questions that are as a consequence going to arise in many members' minds, provides an addit ional safeguard where this leg islat ion is concerned. The former minister has indicated that representa tives of the company will be on hand at committee stage to help le ad us through the legis lation step by st ep once again, or twice, or thrice again if nece ssary, and to explain all the effects of the legisla tion.

Th at , I'm sure, will be welcomed by those of us on this side inter ested in financial affairs and interes ted in the private financial community in this province. We will look forward to the appearance of the bill at Pri vate Bi lls Co mmittee in order to achieve a total understanding at that time. I confess, and I think my colleagues would agree with me, that we don't enjoy such a total under standing at this moment. However , we will take the Minister's word at its value.

We will accept his rea ssuranc e, and we will participate in passing the bill at this point , through this particular stage, and welcome the opportunit y to examine it again in committee. MR, SPEAKER: Ple asure of the House to adopt the Motion? The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR, CHERNlACK: I can't help but wish to close debate on the basis that I don't really

2136 May 6, 1975 BILL 25 (MR. CH ERNIACK cont'd) • , ... want the Member for Fort Garry, or anybo dy else really, to accept my reassurance of this bill. Just as a matter of prin ciple, you know, I recall that not always have I had that kind of a response from others that have agreed to accept my word. I made the statement to indicate my own effo rts to assure myself, not in order to con vince oth ers that they sho uld take my word for it. By all means I think each member should study this bill, or the reasons given, listen to the people who come to discuss it and justify it, and make their own decision rather than to accept my reassurance. QUE STION put and MOTION carried. BILL NO. 32 -

AN ACT FOR THE RELIEF OF SUSAN THI ESSEN MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 32, the Honourable Member for For t Rouge. MR. AXW ORTHY (Fort Rouge) prese nted Bill No. 32,

an Act for the Relief of Susan Th iessen, for second reading. MOTION pr esented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Member for Fort Ro uge. MR. AXW ORTHY: Mr.

Speaker, in introducing this bill I'd like to preface my remarks by saying that one of the things I think that members of this House should al ways take some recog nition of when we spend our many hour s of debate hearing the migh ty is sues of the day, of inflation and economic upheaval, and governm ent over - spending, and all the rest, is that as many laws pass this House, and there's a multitude and myriad number s of legislative acts that pile up in the Statute Boo ks, that there are many individuals who oftenti mes become con fused, and in making cases perplexed by the legal system and the legislative system of our provinc e, that in many cases it simply pres ents to them a very confusing and oftenti mes a kind of com plex that they are not able to cope with for a variety of reasons.

So I think it is always of some use, Mr. Speaker, for us to at times look at the specific problems faced by specific individuals in this soci ety who find themselves caught in tho se kinds of circumstances and to realize that part of our legislative responsibili ties is as much to serve the individual in the specific case as it is to provide general laws for the general betterment of the province. Mr. Speaker, I believe that this particular bill is of that nature. Th e woman in questio n, Mrs.

Thiessen was in a traffic accident in June of 1971 in which she sustained injuries which, at this stage, have still provided some degree of impairment and handicap, and that for reasons that, I guess, can only be explained by not knowing her full rights, no action was undertaken in the courts to secure some return or co mpensation for th ose injuries. It was only with the interventio n, really, of a relative, after the Statute of Li mitations Act came into effect, that Mrs. Th ies sen was aware of her rights and her , in fact the necess ity in many cases, of taking some action to secure a return of compensation.

Unfortunat ely, by that time the Statute of Li mitations had come into effect and therefore the requirement for her to pursue her interest in this Chamber was called upo n. I would like to point out, Mr. Speaker , and make it very clear, that what we are simply passing here is not any kind of direction at all to the courts as to how they should proceed. We are simply, in a sense, waiving the requirements of the Statute of Li mitations Act so that the Cou rt of Queen' s Bench itself would then be able to examine whether in fact the case should be heard.

We' re not in any way deciding on the merits of the case, or even in fact directing the court that it must be heard. We are simply, in this particular bill, Bill 32, enabling or allowing Mrs. Thiessen to pursue her claim to the Cou rt of Queen' s Bench, at which time they will then be able to judge in judicial fashion upon whether the case should be pursued to its own conclusion.

So that we are simply low ering the gate somewhat in allowing this particular issue to _pass into the judicial system, and then it would then be certainly the responsibili ty and the right of that court to , with proper hearing, to determine whether they in fact, would want to hear the case ultimately. So that we in no way are providing any judgment or any direction whatsoever. And I would want to underline that particular point, Mr. Speaker, to ensure if there was any con cern on the parts of mem bers that we were, in fact, somehow affecting the judicial process, that is no such case.

We are simply saying, that in this case one person was caught in un for tunate circ umstances, didn't know what her rights were , and she is simply now making some effo rt to see if her rights can be pursued through the courts. So I would recom mend to the Ho use, Mr. Speaker, this bill, because I think it does indicate that we sho uld take momen ts of pause fro m time to time to look at the kinds of

May 6, 197 5 213 7 BILL 32 (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ..•.• problems that people caught in the web of th e many un knowing and oftentimes complicated systems of legislation and statutes, and that show that we do have a willingness and an interest of providing a flexibility to the law, and certainly a certain compassion for those who have found themselves caught in unfortunate circumstances and therefore need some redress by this Legislature. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: I wonder if the honourable member would permit a question.

Has he satisfied himself that the proposed defendants have knowledge of this bill and would therefore have an opportunity to appear before the committ ee, should it pass; and secondly, that they are not adversely affected, let's say, by insurance company having closed up shop or something like that, by the delay. Is he aware of that? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that those defendants are aware of this. In fact, it' s my understanding that one of the co-d efendants is now married to Mrs.

Thiessen, and th erefore I'm sure by some form of communication, would know about the impending court case, or the impending action by Mrs. Thiessen, and therefore, I would sug gest that the information is therefore, readily available. Now, I wouldn't want the honourable member to pursue that line any further because I have no interest in the fact , and would not want to make any kind of comment upon what the legal questions that might be involved.

I'm simply saying in this case we're allowing the Court of Queen's Bench to decide upon whether in fact the case should be heard, and that that is their right to do; we are simply waiving the Statute of Li mitations requirements so the Court of Queen's Bench can therefore, then through hearing assess whethe r they in fact want to hear the case. So, it really is their right to determine whether they are also prepared to extend the time limits. Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding that the court itself would then be, through it s own procedures, be

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-2-74
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Volume / chapter	30th 2nd hansardpdf 74.pdf
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