British Columbia Hansard — Thursday, November 19, 2009 (39th Parliament, 1st Session) (H1119pm-07) (H1119pm 07)

H1119pm-07

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

First Session, 39th Parliament o FFicial rePort o F Debates of the Legis Lative a ssemb Ly (hansarD) the honourable bill bari So FF, SPeaker iSSn 0709-1281 Thursday, November 19, 2009 Afternoon Sitting Volume 8, Number 7

Pro Vince o F britiS h colu Mbia (entered c onfederation July 20, 1871) lieutenant -Go Vernor h is h onour the h onourable Steven l. Point, obc First Session, 39th Parliament SPeaker o F the leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y h onourable bill barisoff eXecutiVe council Premier and President of the executive c ouncil ......................................................................................................h on.

Gordon c ampbell Minister of State for intergovernmental r elations ....................................................................................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance .......................................................................................................................... h on. c olin h ansen Minister of State for the o lympics and a ctn ow b.c. ....................................................................................................... h on.

Mary Mcn eil Minister of a boriginal r elations and r econciliation .....................................................................................................h on. George a bbott Minister of a dvanced e ducation and l abour Market Development ............................................................................ h on. Moira Stilwell Minister of a griculture and l ands ...................................................................................................................................h on.

Steve Thomson a ttorney General ...................................................................................................................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc Minister of c hildren and Family Development and Minister r esponsible for c hild c are ............................................h on.

Mary Polak Minister of citizens' Services and Minister r esponsible for Multiculturalism and the Public a ffairs bureau ...........h on. ben Stewart Minister of c ommunity and r ural Development ................................................................................................................h on. bill bennett Minister of e ducation and Minister r esponsible for early l earning and l iteracy ......................................h on.

Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of energy, Mines and Petroleum r esources .....................................................................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Minister of State for Mining ................................................................................................................................................h on. r andy h awes Minister of environment .......................................................................................................................................................h on. barry Penner Minister of State for c limate a ction ...........................................................................................................................................h on.

John Y ap Minister of Forests and r ange and Minister r esponsible for the integrated l and Management bureau ........................... h on.

Pat bell Minister of h ealth Services ...................................................................................................................................................h on. k evin Falcon Minister of h ealthy l iving and Sport ...................................................................................................................................... h on. ida c hong Minister of h ousing and Social Development .................................................................................................................h on. r ich c oleman Minister of l abour ................................................................................................................................................................ h on.

Murray c oell Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General .....................................................................................................................h on. k ash h eed Minister of Small business, t echnology and e conomic Development ................................................................................ h on. iain black Minister of t ourism, c ulture and the a rts ...................................................................................................................... h on. k evin k rueger Minister of t ransportation and infrastructure ...................................................................................................................h on.

Shirley bond leGiS latiVe a SSeMbl Y l eader of the official o pposition ...................................................................................................................................................c arole James Deputy Speaker .................................................................................................................................................................................... l inda r eid a ssistant Deputy Speaker .............................................................................................................................................................c laire t revena Deputy c hair, c ommittee of the Whole .......................................................................................................................................... h arry bloy c lerk of the l egislative a ssembly...................................................................................................................e.

George MacMinn, obc, Q c c lerk a ssistant ..................................................................................................................................................................................r obert Vaive c lerk a ssistant and l aw c lerk................................................................................................................................................. ian D. izard, Qc c lerk a ssistant and c lerk of c ommittees ................................................................................................................................. craig h.

James c lerk a ssistant and c ommittee c lerk .................................................................................................................................... k ate r yan-l loyd Sergeant-at-a rms .................................................................................................................................................................................

Gary l enz Director, h ansard Services ............................................................................................................................................................Jo-a nne k ern a cting l egislative l ibrarian .......................................................................................................................................................... Peter Gourlay l egislative c omptroller ....................................................................................................................................................................... Dan a rbic

alP habetical liS t o F MeMberS a bbott, h on. George (l) ........................................................................ Shuswap a ustin, r obin (nDP) ................................................................................ Skeena bains, h arry (nDP) ....................................................................Surrey-n ewton barisoff, h on. bill (l) ............................................................................Penticton barnett, Donna (l) ................................................................ c ariboo-c hilcotin bell, h on.

Pat (l) ..................................................... Prince George–Mackenzie bennett, h on. bill (l) ...................................................................k ootenay e ast black, Dawn (nDP) ................................................................n ew Westminster black, h on. iain (l) ..................................................... Port Moody–c oquitlam bloy, h arry (l) ......................................................................burnaby-l ougheed bond, h on.

Shirley (l) ...........................................Prince George–Valemount brar, Jagrup (nDP) ................................................................ Surrey-Fleetwood c adieux, Stephanie (l) ...........................................................Surrey-Panorama c ampbell, h on. Gordon (l) .........................................Vancouver–Point Grey c antelon, r on (l) ..............................................................

Parksville-Qualicum c hong, h on. ida (l) ..................................................... o ak bay–Gordon h ead c houhan, r aj (nDP) ........................................................... burnaby-e dmonds c oell, h on. Murray (l) ....................................Saanich n orth and the islands c oleman, h on. r ich (l) ...........................................

Fort l angley–a ldergrove c onroy, katrine (nDP) .............................................................. k ootenay West c oons, Gary (nDP) .........................................................................n orth c oast c orrigan, k athy (nDP) ..................................................... burnaby–Deer l ake Dalton, Marc (l) .............................................................. Maple r idge–Mission de Jong, h on.

Michael, Qc (l) .............................................. a bbotsford West Dix, a drian (nDP) ............................................................Vancouver-kingsway Donaldson, Doug (nDP) ......................................................................... Stikine e lmore, Mable (nDP) ................................................... Vancouver-kensington Falcon, h on. k evin (l) ..........................................................Surrey-c loverdale Farnworth, Mike (nDP) ............................................................

Port c oquitlam Fleming, r ob (nDP) .......................................................... Victoria–Swan l ake Foster, eric (l) .......................................................................Vernon-Monashee Fraser, Scott (nDP) ............................................................a lberni–Pacific r im Gentner, Guy (nDP) .........................................................................Delta n orth h ammell, Sue (nDP) .................................................... Surrey–Green t imbers h ansen, h on. c olin (l) ..................................................

Vancouver-Quilchena h awes, h on. r andy (l) ..................................................... a bbotsford-Mission h ayer, Dave S. (l) .................................................................... Surrey-t ynehead h eed, h on. k ash (l) ...................................................... Vancouver-Fraserview h erbert, Spencer (nDP) ..................................................Vancouver–West end h ogg, Gordon (l) ............................................................... Surrey–White r ock h organ, John (nDP) .......................................................................

Juan de Fuca h orne, Douglas (l) ..............................................c oquitlam–b urke Mountain h oward, r ob (l) .....................................................................r ichmond c entre h untington, Vicki (ind.) ..................................................................Delta South James, c arole (nDP) .........................................................Victoria–b eacon h ill k aragianis, Maurine (nDP) ........................................e squimalt–r oyal r oads k rog, l eonard (nDP) ........................................................................... n anaimo k rueger, h on. k evin (l) ..................................... k amloops–South Thompson kwan, Jenny Wai ching (nDP) ...........................

Vancouver–Mount Pleasant l ake, t erry (l) .....................................................k amloops–n orth Thompson l ali, h arry (nDP) ..........................................................................Fraser-n icola l ee, r ichard t . (l) .......................................................................burnaby n orth l ekstrom, h on. blair (l) .......................................................

Peace r iver South l es, John (l) .........................................................................................c hilliwack l etnick, n orm (l) ........................................................k elowna–l ake c ountry MacDiarmid, h on. Margaret (l) ..................................... Vancouver-Fairview Macdonald, n orm (nDP) ....................................c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke Mcintyre, Joan (l) ..................................................West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Mcn eil, h on.

Mary (l) .................................................Vancouver–False creek Mcr ae, Don (l) ............................................................................. c omox Valley Mungall, Michelle (nDP) ..........................................................n elson-creston Penner, hon. barry (l) ............................................................c hilliwack-h ope Pimm, Pat (l) ..........................................................................Peace r iver n orth Polak, h on.

Mary (l) ...............................................................................l angley Popham, l ana (nDP) ...................................................................Saanich South r alston, bruce (nDP) ................................................................

Surrey-Whalley r eid, l inda (l) .............................................................................r ichmond e ast r outley, bill (nDP) .................................................................. c owichan Valley r outley, Doug (nDP) ............................................n anaimo–n orth c owichan r ustad, John (l) ........................................................................... n echako l akes Sather, Michael (nDP) ......................................... Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows Simons, n icholas (nDP) ...................................

Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast Simpson, bob (nDP) ...................................................................c ariboo n orth Simpson, Shane (nDP) .....................................................Vancouver-hastings Slater, John (l) ..............................................................boundary-Similkameen Stewart, h on. ben (l) ........................................................... Westside-kelowna Stilwell, h on. Moira (l) ...................................................... Vancouver-l angara Sultan, r alph (l) .....................................................

West Vancouver–capilano Thomson, hon. Steve (l) ........................................................k elowna-Mission Thorne, Diane (nDP) .................................................c oquitlam-Maillardville Thornthwaite, Jane (l) .......................................... n orth Vancouver–Seymour t revena, c laire (nDP) .................................................................... n orth island van Dongen, John (l) .............................................................a bbotsford South Y amamoto, hon. n aomi (l) ................................. n orth Vancouver–l onsdale Y ap, hon.

John (l) .............................................................r ichmond-Steveston liS t o F MeMberS bY riD in G a bbotsford-Mission .............................................................h on. r andy h awes a bbotsford South .....................................................................John van Dongen a bbotsford West ...................................................... h on. Michael de Jong, Qc a lberni–Pacific r im ..........................................................................

Scott Fraser boundary-Similkameen .....................................................................John Slater burnaby–Deer l ake ................................................................... k athy c orrigan burnaby-e dmonds ......................................................................... r aj c houhan burnaby-l ougheed ............................................................................ h arry bloy burnaby n orth .............................................................................. r ichard t . l ee c ariboo-c hilcotin ........................................................................Donna barnett c ariboo n orth ................................................................................ bob Simpson c hilliwack ...............................................................................................

John l es c hilliwack-h ope ...................................................................h on. barry Penner c olumbia r iver–r evelstoke .................................................. n orm Macdonald c omox Valley.................................................................................... Don Mcr ae c oquitlam–b urke Mountain .....................................................Douglas h orne c oquitlam-Maillardville...............................................................

Diane Thorne c owichan Valley ................................................................................ bill r outley Delta n orth ......................................................................................Guy Gentner Delta South ...............................................................................Vicki h untington e squimalt–r oyal r oads .....................................................Maurine k aragianis Fort l angley–a ldergrove ...................................................h on. r ich c oleman Fraser-n icola........................................................................................ h arry l ali Juan de Fuca .....................................................................................John h organ k amloops–n orth Thompson .............................................................t erry l ake k amloops–South Thompson ............................................ h on. k evin k rueger k elowna–l ake c ountry ...............................................................n orm l etnick k elowna-Mission .............................................................. h on.

Steve Thomson k ootenay e ast .......................................................................... h on. bill bennett k ootenay West ............................................................................ k atrine c onroy l angley.......................................................................................h on. Mary Polak Maple r idge–Mission .....................................................................

Marc Dalton Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows ........................................................Michael Sather n anaimo ......................................................................................... l eonard k rog n anaimo–n orth c owichan ......................................................... Doug r outley n echako l akes ..................................................................................

John r ustad n elson-creston ........................................................................Michelle Mungall n ew Westminster ..............................................................................Dawn black n orth c oast....................................................................................... Gary c oons n orth island .................................................................................. c laire t revena n orth Vancouver–l onsdale ........................................h on. n aomi Y amamoto n orth Vancouver–Seymour .................................................

Jane Thornthwaite o ak bay–Gordon h ead ............................................................ h on. ida c hong Parksville-Qualicum ..................................................................... r on c antelon Peace r iver n orth ................................................................................

Pat Pimm Peace r iver South ...............................................................h on. blair l ekstrom Penticton................................................................................... h on. bill barisoff Port c oquitlam ..........................................................................Mike Farnworth Port Moody–c oquitlam .............................................................h on. iain black Powell r iver–Sunshine c oast ................................................. n icholas Simons Prince George–Mackenzie .............................................................h on.

Pat bell Prince George–Valemount ...................................................h on. Shirley bond r ichmond c entre ............................................................................ r ob h oward r ichmond e ast ................................................................................... l inda r eid r ichmond-Steveston .................................................................... h on. John Y ap Saanich n orth and the islands ........................................... h on.

Murray c oell Saanich South ................................................................................ l ana Popham Shuswap ...............................................................................h on. George a bbott Skeena .............................................................................................. r obin a ustin Stikine .......................................................................................

Doug Donaldson Surrey-c loverdale .................................................................h on. k evin Falcon Surrey-Fleetwood ...............................................................................Jagrup brar Surrey–Green t imbers ..................................................................Sue h ammell Surrey-n ewton ................................................................................. h arry b ains Surrey-Panorama ..................................................................Stephanie c adieux Surrey-t ynehead ...........................................................................

Dave S. h ayer Surrey-Whalley.............................................................................. bruce r alston Surrey–White r ock ....................................................................... Gordon h ogg Vancouver-Fairview ............................................. h on. Margaret MacDiarmid Vancouver–False creek ........................................................ h on.

Mary Mcn eil Vancouver-Fraserview ..............................................................h on. k ash h eed Vancouver-hastings ....................................................................Shane Simpson Vancouver-kensington .................................................................Mable e lmore Vancouver-kingsway..........................................................................a drian Dix Vancouver-l angara ............................................................. h on. Moira Stilwell Vancouver–Mount Pleasant .........................................

Jenny Wai ching kwan Vancouver–Point Grey .................................................h on.

Gordon c ampbell Vancouver-Quilchena ..........................................................h on. c olin h ansen Vancouver–West end ................................................................Spencer h erbert Vernon-Monashee ...............................................................................eric Foster Victoria–b eacon h ill .......................................................................c arole James Victoria–Swan l ake.........................................................................r ob Fleming West Vancouver–capilano ............................................................. r alph Sultan West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ........................................................

Joan Mcintyre Westside-kelowna ...................................................................h on. ben Stewart Party Standings: l iberal 49; n ew Democratic 35; independent 1

CONTENTS Thursday, november 19, 2009 a fternoon Sitting Page Routine Business introductions by Members ..................................................................................................................................................... 2575 Statements (Standing order 25b) ......................................................................................................................................... 2576 t en Thousand Villages festivals in northwestern b.c. D. Donaldson c hild and Y outh Day and rights of children J.

Mcintyre Wind turbine manufacturer in Port Mcneill c. t revena r ichmond Peace l abyrinth l. r eid c aregivers association in Maple r idge and Pitt Meadows M. Sather Fundraising activities for Surrey Memorial hospital S. c adieux oral Questions ......................................................................................................................................................................... 2579 b.c. h ydro purchase agreement for portion of Waneta dam J. h organ h on. b. l ekstrom k. c onroy a ccess to b.c. Ferries information D. r outley h on.

S. bond G. c oons r eview of b.c. r ail h. b ains h on. S. bond Government handling of t ourism b.c. S. h erbert h on. k. k rueger S. Simpson Petitions .................................................................................................................................................................................... 2584 k. c onroy D. r outley r . a ustin G. Gentner a.

Dix Orders of the Day c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 2584 e stimates: Ministry of h ealth Services (continued) a. Dix h on. k. Falco n S. h ammell S. Fraser r . Fleming D. r outley c. t revena h. l ali

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room c ommittee of Supply .............................................................................................................................................................. 2611 e stimates: Ministry of energy, Mines and Petroleum r esources (continued) D. Donaldson h on. b. l ekstrom J. h organ l. Popha m G. Gentner

2575 thurSD a Y , noVeMber 19, 2009 The h ouse met at 1:34 p.m. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Routine Business Introductions by Members L. Popham: i have friends and family in the gallery today. i have Jennie Popham; Sandra Jaques; Denise Jaques; l orna Mckintuck, my mom; and l aurie a nne Meyersco. i would also like to welcome c hris Malinosky from the o ak bay fire department; his son Joe; and his father-in-law, Sam holden. Please make them welcome. Hon. J. Y ap: in the gallery today are two good friends and constituents, a ndy h obbs and l ynn h obbs. Would the h ouse please make them very welcome. J.

Brar: Visiting us today are two very special guests from india. We have with us Joginder Pal Jain, hon. Member of the l egislative a ssembly of Punjab, and he is also a very successful business person from Moga. [1335] h e is also accompanied by his wife, Mrs. Swaran l ata Jain, who has served first as a councillor and then as the mayor of the city of Moga. There seems to be some sort of competition going on in the Jain family in that way. They're accompanied by two good friends of mine, Dr. bhupinder Singh Dhaliwal and Dr.

Pavittar Singh bassi. i would ask members from both sides of the h ouse to please make them feel welcome. Hon. M. Stilwell: i'd like to introduce two spe- cial guests and good friends who are here today from Vancouver: Mr. l arry Garfinkel, previously a social worker and now a publisher of first nations art, and his son Daniel. i ask the h ouse to make them welcome. N. Simons: Joining us in the h ouse today is Matthew l ouie, member of the c owichan t ribes and currently community development office coordinator for the institute for c hild r ights and Development. Would the h ouse please make him welcome. Hon. R.

Hawes: t oday on the floor visiting us is no stranger to any of us, a man whose career here in the l egislature spanned some three decades. h e has served in almost every ministry there is and served a term as a very, very distinguished and admirable Speaker. n o reflection, Mr. Speaker, on your great abilities. Mr. c laude r ichmond joins us on the floor of the h ouse. c ould we all make c laude feel most welcome. M. Farnworth: i want to join with my colleague from Mission-a bbotsford to welcome the former member from k amloops. We can only assume that he's here to pitch in for cabinet during question period.

Hon. K. Krueger: We have some guests from k amloops that i'd like to introduce on behalf of the member for k amloops–n orth Thompson and myself and all our constituents. They are so important that we reserved the entire west gallery for them. They are from Domtar, a pulp mill that has not only survived but is thriving in the tough economic times, a pulp mill that serves two dozen sawmills in our region and has diversi- fied its markets in incredible ways. We're very proud of them.

With us we have eric a shby, who is the mill manager; bill a dams, who is the manager of engineering services; and bonnie Skene, who is the public affairs manager and hails from the frozen part of c anada in the east. i ask the h ouse to join us in bidding them a really warm welcome. J. Kwan: i have some very special guests visiting us today in the gallery. They are instructors and students from the SFu

interpretation and translation program. The five instructors are h eather c harest, Winnie c heng, Sandy Shea, Grace l ee and Wendy Steinberg. i should just pause for a moment and say that Grace l ee was a former student of this program who later on came to my office and worked as my constituency assist- ant and is now the instructor of that program. They are here to learn about the l egislature and to see the legislators in action. i hope that members will use language that they could easily interpret and translate. Would the house please make them very welcome. D.

Hayer: i would like to introduce two very special guests and friends, Morry h ubburmin and his son e than. e than h uberman was instrumental in helping us advo- cate for hundreds of millions of dollars of additional fed- eral funding we received from the federal government for the South Fraser perimeter road. This was a result of his hard work with many MPs, Mla s, several chambers of commerce and many boards of trade, including the c anadian c hamber of c ommerce. Would the h ouse please make them very welcome. G.

Gentner: it's with a great deal of pleasure that i introduce to the h ouse today a constituent of mine and also a teacher for the n orth Delta high school. h e's also now the president of the Delta t eachers a ssociation. c ould the h ouse please welcome and give a cordial wel- come to Mr. Paul Steer. L. Reid: on behalf of Mr. Speaker, i would like to welcome two representatives from the british c olumbia

british c olumbia Debates2576 t hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 a utomobile a ssociation who are in the gallery this after- noon. craig e dmondson, a dvocacy and Government r elations, and t race a kers, c ommunications and Government r elations, are visiting Victoria from their base in burnaby. i ask the h ouse to extend a warm welcome. [1340] H. Lali: h on.

Speaker, i too would like to join the Minister of State for Mining and the nDP h ouse l eader in welcoming back to this hallowed hall of fame the former member — a long-time member — for k amloops, the silver fox from k amloops, Mr. c laude r ichmond. a lso, i would like to join my fellow member for Surrey-Fleetwood in welcoming the guests from india, Mla Joginder Pal Jain and his wife, Mrs. Swarn l ata Jain, as well as bhupinder Singh Dhaliwal and Pavittar Singh bassi. i would like to join my colleague in welcom- ing them — both sets of introductions that were made earlier.

Would the house please make them welcome. D. McRae: i'd like to make two introductions today. First of all, i'd like to introduce n icole Murillo from the c omox Valley. She's here visiting today. i'd like the h ouse to make her welcome, please. Second of all, from my wife Deanne and my daugh- ter Gracie, we would like to announce the birth of our baby daughter born on n ovember 6 this year, 7 pound 2 ounces, healthy. a nd for goodness' sake, she looks like her mother. Hon. M. Coell: There are a number of members of the a ssociation of c anadian Mountain Guides in the gallery today.

Mountain guides are often involved in saving lives in the back country of british c olumbia. With the winter avalanche season fast approaching, i think it's appropriate that we thank them for their hard work and dedication in making our mountain activities safe. h ere today are president k eith r eid, executive direc- tor Peter t ucker, board members craig McGee, John Furneaux and k imanda Jarzebiak. Would the h ouse please make them welcome. Mr. Speaker: i think the member for c omox Valley forgot something. D.

McRae: i was so excited, and it probably won't happen again, but my daughter's name is c hloe Stella Mcr ae. G. Hogg: There's clearly a degree of excitement and anticipation when one is elected to have their first ses- sion in this august chamber, and when that is sometimes tempered a little bit by the daily proceedings here, it's nice to know that that can be bolstered by the joy of actually having your birthday here as well.

We have, i believe, two members having their birth- days here today, and i would ask that we give great con- gratulations and joy, because i'm sure we're now their very best friends. it is the Solicitor General who's having his birthday today, as well as the member for Surrey- Panorama. Mr. Speaker: Well, we certainly wish the two a happy birthday. Hon. P .

Bell: Speaking of birthdays, i can never resist the opportunity to make sure that i honour my col- league from Prince George–Valemount. a lthough her birthday is not today, it would fall on Saturday. i would ask that the h ouse please congratulate the member on the fourth anniversary of her 49th birthday. Mr. Speaker: Would the Minister of t ransportation wish that i'd get the Minister of Forests to withdraw those remarks? [l aughter.] K. Conroy: i wonder what was happening nine months ago, but there's a birthday on our side of the h ouse too.

That would be my legislative assistant a mber n ash, who's celebrating her 30th birthday. Statements (Standing Order 25B) ten thou San D Villa Ge S Fe Sti Val S in north We Stern b.c . D. Donaldson: h on. Speaker, we have become a cul- ture that defines itself in terms of retail consumption. That was epitomized after the 9/11 bombings when the u .S.

President said that the best thing people could do was to go out to the shopping malls. l ikewise the strat- egy advocated by many advisers to address our current economic crisis is to go out and buy more stuff, despite the fact that overspending and greed was what led to the crisis in the first place. Y et we remain a consumer culture, so reflecting on how we spend our retail dollars deserves attention.

That is why i'm very happy to talk about the t en Thousand Villages festivals taking place this week in the h azeltons and next weekend in Smithers. [1345] Started by a Mennonite central committee worker more than 60 years ago, t en Thousand Villages defined the fair trade concept long before it became a familiar term. The festivals provide consumers access to products that have been fairly purchased from sustainable sources. The subsequent retail exchange is designed to benefit artisans, not maximize profits. t en Thousand Villages typifies fair trade, which is part of a bigger movement — community economic

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 2577 development. ceD supports initiatives based on the triple bottom line — environment, social and economic — but also uses a lens about who benefits most from the transaction. a fter all, wouldn't it be better if the primary benefit of a retail transaction, whether it is artisan wares or natural resources, is to the local worker and producer of the goods rather than faraway shareholders? That brings us back to the Smithers and h azelton festivals.

The volunteer coordinator in Smithers is a nn Marie Findlay, and in the h azeltons it's Marian Penner, who says that spending money at t en Thousand Villages provides income for poor folks in other parts of the world who have spent most of their lives on the street, mainly women. a s many of us make additional purchases leading up to the c hristmas season, reflecting on who benefits the most from that retail exchange is vital. That is what the fair trade movement and t en Thousand Villages are all about. chil D an D Youth Da Y anD ri Ght S o F chilD ren J.

McIntyre: i rise today to speak in recognition of child and youth day in british c olumbia and n ational c hild Day in c anada on Friday, n ovember 20. The national day has been celebrated across c anada since 1993 to commemorate the un adoption of the u nited n ations convention on the rights of the child on n ovember 20, 1989. The un convention has been ratified by c anada and endorsed by the province of british c olumbia. This year marks the 20th anniversary of the convention, and in recognition, b.c. has also proclaimed tomorrow c hild and Y outh Day in british c olumbia.

The adoption of the convention and the establishment of c hild and Y outh Day here in our province reflect the important recognition of the basic human rights that all children and youth are entitled to — that children are important and valued members of our society. by endorsing the convention, british c olumbia made a commitment to do our best to ensure that all children are treated with dignity and respect.

This includes com- mitments to ensure that our children and youth are pro- vided with their basic needs, are protected from harm and are given the opportunity to have a voice. c elebrating c hild and Y outh Day is about celebrat- ing children as active participants in their own lives and communities, as active citizens who can and should have opportunities to meaningfully contribute to the decisions being made that affect their lives. a bove all else, this proclamation reminds us that children need love and respect to grow to their full potential and that we must always act with their best interests in mind.

The convention acknowledges that while parents have the primary responsibility for the development of their children, governments and communities have an important role to play in supporting and protecting our children. i urge you all to take time on n ovember 20 to cele- brate the children and youth of british c olumbia within your homes and your communities and to acknowledge the efforts of all those in our society who care for and serve our children lovingly each and every day. WinD turbine ManuF acturer in P ort M cneill C.

Trevena: i travelled through northwestern Spain a few years ago and was exhilarated by the sight of the wind turbines slowly and silently turning along the ridges facing the a tlantic. They're like giant sentinels marching through the countryside. Y ou see them in Denmark and Germany and t exas. They're wind farms. a nd in Port Mcn eill you can visit b.c.'s only wind turbine maker. cln Machining and Fabricating is a small operation tucked in a back street of town distin- guishable by the wind turbine on its roof.

When we talk about alternative energies, the green economy and transition, cln is the reality of that. it used to be a machine shop catering to the forest industry. Working out of Port Mcneill, it was always busy. When one of the machinists was sick, he started to play around with designs for wind turbines and, on his return to work, started to fabricate them. With the downturn in the forest sector and the increasing interest in alternative energy production, cln started to make the switch from working for the forest sector to building wind turbines.

Their turbines are at the airfield outside Mcn eill, at lodges, and soon the a lert bay School, perched on a hill in the middle of c ormorant island, will also have a wind turbine powering its energy needs. u nlike the wind farms in e urope or across our con- tinent, cln's turbines allow individual consumers to plug into the natural energy of the winds and, if there's excess energy produced, flip the switch so it can go back into the grid.

They aren't cheap, and the returns of putting excess back into the grid aren't huge — particularly compared with other provinces — but the interest is there, and the work for the company is steady. [1350] i would hope that most of us in this h ouse believe that climate change is a reality and that we all need to find new ways of doing business, living our lives and sustaining our communities to reflect that. The vision and energy provided by cln is a small

part in a shift to a green economy. but we all have to do so much more in our communities, here in our province, our country and across our continent.

british c olumbia Debates2578 t hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 richM onD P eace labYrinth L. Reid: The r ichmond Peace l abyrinth is located on the north side of St. a lban's a nglican c hurch h all and is built from bricks in a single winding, purposeful path from the edge of the circle to the centre. it is 42 feet in diameter with a 16-inch-wide path. it is a replica of the 11-circuit labyrinth of c hartres c athedral in France, which was constructed sometime between the year 1194 and 1220. l abyrinths are known to help promote meditation, a quiet mind, health, balance and insight.

They are used in celebrations, in uniting community, supporting mental health and as a path of prayer. The health benefits of walking labyrinths have been proven by their use in hos- pitals, schools, and respite and palliative care facilities. They've also been found in parks, churches, memorial parks and retreat centres around the world. r esearch conducted by Dr. h erbert benson from h arvard Medical School's Mind-body Medical institute has found that labyrinth walking is among the simplest forms of meditation. h e found issues around reducing anxiety and reducing other issues around health and the heart.

The r ichmond Peace l abyrinth provides a calm, peaceful and beautiful environment in the heart of r ichmond. Many walkers also attend the St. a lban's community meal, served every t uesday in the church hall. The meals started 12 to 15 years ago and serve between 20 and 40 people. it's also an opportunity for people to socialize. They come together. St. a lban's meal is set up and served by volunteers. Sunrise r otary and Steveston r otary both do one t uesday a month. The other t uesdays are covered by members of the congre- gation and members of the community. r ev.

Margaret c ornish leads an amazing church con- gregation. i would ask the h ouse to join me in thanking this lovely woman for her dedication to community. careGiVerS a SSociation in MaP le riDGe anD P itt MeaD o WS M. Sather: i stand in the h ouse today to acknowledge a special group of citizens from my community. The caregivers of Maple r idge–Pitt Meadows are a support group comprised of individuals, often but not always senior citizens, who have taken it upon themselves to care for their loved ones regardless of the personal cost.

These loved ones have chronic or terminal health condi- tions that require a substantial commitment of time and resources. The caregivers supervise, monitor medical conditions, take those in their care to and from appointments, and administer any necessary medications.

They do this without any expectation of recognition or compensation, only to ensure their loved ones have the best quality of life possible. a s one can imagine, such demanding and selfless action takes a toll on one's physical and mental well-being. t welve years ago a group of caregivers got together to share their experiences with one another and to provide mutual support. i did say that they do what they do without the expectation of recognition, but i believe they should be recognized. n ot only is what they do a sterling example of compassion and commitment, but their efforts in keeping individuals from being institutionalized is a valuable service to our communities.

They keep seniors out of hospital beds and care facilities, thus substantially reducing the load on our health care system. e ven when it has gotten to the point where their loved ones have to be institutionalized, the caregivers stay close by, typically supplementing the institutionalized care with their own time and limited resources. it wasn't long ago that the system recognized their contribution and, through the home care services, pro- vided some respite.

Sadly, this service was cut. but the caregivers still soldier on, taking personal responsibility for their wives, husbands, mothers and fathers because they care. FunD raiS in G actiVitieS For Surre Y MeM orial hoSP ital S. Cadieux: on n ovember 2 the South a sian com- munity in Surrey came together in an enormous show of support for Surrey Memorial h ospital Foundation. Surrey-based radio station r ed 93.1 FM, spearheaded by station owner and Surrey Memorial h ospital Foundation board member k ulwinder Sanghera, established an annual radiothon in 2007 with a pledge to the founda- tion of $2 million.

The third annual 16-hour broadcast this year resulted in pledges totalling $900,000. The South a sian community has shown great gener - osity towards Surrey Memorial h ospital and has now well surpassed that $2 million goal.

Donations this year included a $50,000 matching pledge by t ony Singh, owner of Fruiticana, who challenged the community of radio listeners to match his contribution. r ed FM stepped up and donated $25,000. [1355] Whether it was the children who donated their piggy banks or the a twal family or r ai Plumbing, who have donated every single year, approximately 2,200 people personally visited r ed FM to contribute and show their support.

The new emergency centre at Surrey Memorial will be named the Guru n anak emergency Services Front entrance in recognition of the South a sian commun- ity's contribution to the foundation over the years. The Surrey Memorial er is the busiest in b.c. at 77,000 visits a year. r ed FM's leadership and the South a sian community's support in Surrey are truly demon-

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 2579 strating their appreciation for Surrey Memorial and its continued expansion. i'd like the h ouse to help me recognize and congratu- late r ed FM and all of the donors for their immensely successful and very appreciated support of Surrey Memorial. Oral Questions b.c. hYD ro Purcha Se a GreeMent For P ortion o F Waneta D a M J.

Horgan: This past summer b.c. h ydro negotiated a deal with t eck r esources to buy a one-third stake in the Waneta dam for $825 million — $825 million of ratepay- ers' money to buy an aging facility that analysts predict was worth somewhere in the neighbourhood of $500 million. a review of the n ational energy board export permits reveals that before t eck c ominco could move any of their surplus power to the u nited States, they had to first offer it to b.c. h ydro. My question to the Minister of energy is this.

Why did he allow b.c. h ydro to put $825 million of ratepayer money at risk when he can already buy the power? Hon. B. Lekstrom: i can tell the member that this is a tremendous deal for british c olumbians. We talk about b.c. h ydro and their heritage assets, the ability to expand upon what they own today on behalf of british c olumbians, which is you and i in this l egislature — everybody right across. The deal for the one-third share of the Waneta dam…. When you refer to the price, the price per megawatt hour comes in substantially lower than any power that's on the ability to be developed today.

We're extremely excited about this. We are looking forward. We have an opportunity in british c olumbia to have b.c. h ydro not only grow its assets on behalf of british c olumbians but to provide cost-effective electricity for british c olumbians, and that's my first priority. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. interjection. Mr. Speaker: Minister. J. Horgan: The minister has just said that putting at risk $825 million of ratepayers' money is a good deal when the power produced by the dam, if it is surplus to the smelting needs of t eck c ominco… interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. J.

Horgan: …is available to b.c. h ydro at market rates. l ast year when t eck c ominco exported power to the u nited States, they got $37 a megawatt hour — a $37 a megawatt hour on the spot market. a gain, my question is to the minister. Why did he allow a transfer of $825 million of ratepayer money to a private company when he could already buy the power? Where's the economic sense in that? Hon. B. Lekstrom: it's surprising. i know the oppos- ition is opposed to the independent power producers in this province. n ow it appears they're opposed to b.c. h ydro. That just doesn't hold water.

The actual issue that we're looking at here is an acqui- sition by b.c. h ydro for a one-third interest in the Waneta. That is not going to put the smelter at risk. if the member has done his homework, he would see that that power wasn't utilized by the smelter. This is cost-effective electricity — something i have heard numerous times called for by the opposition. We fully support ensuring that we have the ability to be elec- tricity self-sufficient by 2016 as we've committed to.

We are committing to do it through the use of b.c. h ydro expanded facilities — b.c. h ydro's ability to actually look at new acquisitions, such as the Waneta one-third purchase, as well as cooperation and enhancement with our independent power producers of this province. We have a lot to be proud of. i can tell you, british c olumbians are exceptionally fortunate to be served by between the second- and fourth-lowest electricity rates in n orth a merica. We're going to maintain that. interjections. [1400] Mr. Speaker: Members. The member has a further supplemental. J.

Horgan: The c olumbia Power c orporation is a public utility. The shareholder for that utility is the Minister of Finance. c olumbia Power owns the expan- sion rights to the Waneta facility. The cost-effective thing for a prudent government to do was to look at the two utilities they control, b.c. h ydro and c olumbia Power, and say: "Which of these two is better suited to own a one-third interest in Waneta dam?" The easy answer — c olumbia Power.

They weren't allowed to bid. is it true that the $664,000 in political contributions from t ech to the b.c. l iberals directly related to an $825 million boondoggle on the back of the ratepayers of b.c. h ydro? interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Just wait, Minister.

british c olumbia Debates2580 t hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 Hon. B. Lekstrom: This is an incredible deal for british c olumbians. i know he may differ. We have made a commitment, and it's somewhat…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat. it's going to be a long question period. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. B.

Lekstrom: i'm somewhat surprised by the question, referring that a contribution could lead to a deal like this when, in fact, i think the member knows very well that as the minister responsible, i take my job extremely seriously. i can tell you that i act on behalf of british c olumbians each and every day in a way that i'm proud of.

What this is about is the ability to maintain one of the greatest crown corporations, i believe, in n orth a merica, if not the world. it's the ability for b.c. h ydro not only to maintain and enhance its existing infra- structure but to acquire new infrastructure on behalf of the residents of british c olumbia, the people that they actually provide electricity for, at a cost-effective rate. i've heard this numerous times from the opposition. i think they'll be extremely happy with the price of the power that comes in, the ability for b.c. h ydro to move forward. i can tell you that not only on this side…. i have to believe that you have to be supporters of b.c. h ydro, but with questions like that, i have to question that.

K. Conroy: it's obvious that the minister is concerned about certain taxpayers, but it's taxpayers in b.c. in and about the region that i come from that are very con- cerned about this sale. The mayor of t rail, Dieter bogs, in his brief to the b.c. u tilities c ommission hearing, said that this transaction will jeopardize the future of t rail and the future of t rail operations. The hearings to allow this sale to proceed are still ongoing. Will the minister do the right thing and stop this transaction that will benefit so few? Hon. B. Lekstrom: i'll start by clarifying.

The member indicated that this would benefit so few. We have over four million people in british c olumbia, and this trans- action will benefit each and every one of them. a s the member rightfully said, there is a process ongoing at the present time. i want to assure the member and to assure all british c olumbians that this is not going to put t rail in jeopardy, as the member has said. if she had looked and done her homework, based on the excess electricity that had been generated, she would see that that wasn't utilized at the smelter. in closing, i do want to say this.

We're committed to building an energy- and electricity-self-sufficient prov- ince. We will be there by 2016 to meet our commitment. That includes new generating activity produced by b.c. h ydro as well as through our independent power pro- ducers of british c olumbia. [1405] t ogether, this balance is going to lead us to be a clean energy powerhouse, to lead n orth a merica in the reduc- tion of greenhouse gas emissions, to do it in a way that creates electricity. i'm somewhat surprised that when cost-effective electricity is there, you're opposed to it. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. K.

Conroy: That diatribe isn't going to do the min- ister any good, because it's not only the city of t rail that is concerned. it's the regional district of k ootenay boundary, it's u nited Steelworkers, and it's people from throughout the region who are also quite worried. Doug Jones, the president of l ocal 480, said at the same hear - ings that the transaction will jeopardize the continua- tion of existing operations. What is it, Minister? Y ou have to do the right thing. Save taxpayers' dollars, and tell b.c. h ydro to call off this deal to your friends. Hon. B.

Lekstrom: Going back, the issue is before the bcuc. They're reviewing it. There is opportunity and has been, as the member has rightfully said, for people to make that. but the ability for b.c. h ydro to enter into this purchase agreement for one-third of Waneta…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat for a second. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. B. Lekstrom: i do want to go back to the point that we talked about — the ability to develop an electri- city-self-sufficient province in british c olumbia by 2016.

We're doing that through the purchase of independent power producers' electricity, if it is cost-effective electri- city — something i've heard the opposition speak loud and clear about. h ere we have an incredible opportunity for b.c . h ydro to acquire an asset that will bring in extremely cost- effective electricity and will benefit all british c olumbians, including t rail and the residents of your riding. We're in favour of it. if you want to oppose all electricity, go ahead. but we're going to keep our lights on in british c olumbia, and we're going to do it on behalf of…. acceSS to b.c.

FerrieS inForMation D. Routley: This government has a habit of making big statements and commitments without any follow- through. in a joint press release on Monday from

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 2581 three organizations, including the b.c. Freedom of information and Privacy a ssociation, e xecutive Director Darrell e vans said: "i doubt b.c. Ferries officials would have been paid these outrageous salaries and bonuses if they knew citizens or the media could ask for them through freedom of information." Will the minister commit today to making b.c. Ferries subject to the Freedom of information a ct? Hon. S. Bond: a s i've said repeatedly in this h ouse and outside of it, the comptroller general was asked for advice. She provided it to us.

We will consider every single recommendation, including that one. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. D. Routley: The interesting

part is, though, that in 1998 the Premier, then in opposition, wrote a letter to Mr. e vans. h e said: "Freedom of information is not just a tool of opposition. The fundamental principle must be this: government information belongs to the people, not the government." t axpayers have a right to know what's going on behind those closed doors of b.c. Ferries. Will the minister quit stalling and commit today to submitting b.c. Ferries, bringing b.c. Ferries under the Freedom of information a ct and bringing back accountability to the people of b.c.? Hon. S.

Bond: a nd 1998 certainly brings back mem- ories to members on this side of the h ouse. in fact, that was the year…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: t ake your seat. Members. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. S. Bond: i'm glad the member opposite brought up 1998 because, in fact, that was one of the years where b.c. Ferries was actually teetering on the brink of bank- ruptcy, thanks to the members on the other side of the house. [1410] G. Coons: The comptroller general is only the latest of many voices calling for b.c. Ferries to be accountable to the public. in 2003 after this government privatized b.c.

Ferries and removed them from public oversight, the information and Privacy c ommissioner of b.c. wrote a letter to the t ransportation Minister at the time calling on b.c. Ferries to make safety reports and "other pertin- ent information available to the public on a website." Will the Minister of t ransportation finally make b.c. Ferries subject to the Freedom of information a ct? Hon. S. Bond: one thing we do know that the comp- troller general actually said…. Perhaps the member opposite would like to read the rest of the report. The comptroller general actually said that b.c .

Ferries was run in an effective and efficient manner. in fact, the only thing the members opposite should be concerned about is that under their leadership, the debt for b.c . Ferries actually increased by 1,800 percent — 1,800 percent. We've made a commitment to consider every single one of the recommendations seriously. We asked the comptroller general for advice, and we intend to review every recommendation. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Member has a supplemental. G. Coons: it was this Premier, this government that gave b.c.

Ferries a green light to excessively spend and to operate in secret by exempting them from Foi. This Premier created this b.c. Ferries gone wild with no accountability and no scrutiny. This government is stall- ing, hoping the issue will go away. it was a mistake. it was a mistake to hide b.c. Ferries from the public. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. c ontinue, Member. G. Coons: it was a mistake to hide b.c. Ferries from the public. e ven the Minister of t ransportation was sur- prised when she found out that the ceo made over a million bucks. a gain, will the minister stop dithering?

Will she act on the comptroller general's recommenda- tions to make b.c. Ferries subject to the Freedom of information a ct? Hon. S. Bond: What i'd like to do is refer the member opposite to page 29 of the comptroller general's report, which actually points out and makes this statement: "b.c. Ferries has successfully acquired independent financing and has dealt with one of the major challenges it inherited." That would imply the 1990s when it was established — a seriously aging fleet. in fact, the vessels that the member opposite is talking about were on aver- age over 30 years old. They bankrupt b.c. Ferries.

We're not going to take one minute's worth of advice from the member opposite. interjections. Mr. Speaker: We're not starting.

british c olumbia Debates2582 t hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 re Vie W o F b.c. rail H. Bains: Mr. Speaker, you notice and observe the members opposite — how good they are at defending the minister who was defending secrecy in her t ransportation Ministry. l et's see how she defends the waste. l et's see how she'll defend the waste under her ministry. e veryone except the minister knows that millions of dollars are wasted at b.c. r ail every year.

Four execu- tives have been paid over $6 million since b.c. r ail was sold. n ow, only after the pressure from the opposition, the minister is calling for the review. [1415] What review? a review to find out that they are man- aging less than 30 employees at a cost of $1.2 million a year? a review that there are no trains except the gravy train that existed in there? My question to the minis- ter is this. Why doesn't she show some leadership? Why doesn't she cut them loose? Why doesn't she manage that asset through her ministry office? Hon. S.

Bond: a ugust 25, 2009. i'm sure the member opposite…. i'm positive he could probably pick up his copy of the throne speech, dust it off and read this para- graph: "h ealth authorities, boards of education and crown corporations will be subject to reviews in the coming year." Sorry, Member opposite. We started the review of b.c. r ail Properties after the throne speech. That work is underway. We will continue to look at the mandate of b.c. r ail Properties. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. H. Bains: it's obvious that the minister doesn't get it, like all other ministers on the other side.

She is continu- ing to defend the indefensible b.c. r ail waste. When pressured, she hides behind the review. The fact of the matter is that we do not need another review to find out that there is $1.2 million per year needed to sell off real estate. My question to the minister is this. Why doesn't she do the right thing and tell these executives that the gravy train is no more and save the taxpayers $1.2 million a year? Hon. S. Bond: i guess, first of all, the member should sort out…. First he wasn't sure we'd called for a review, which in fact we did in a ugust of 2009.

So he didn't get that right, and he didn't get the rest of his statement right either. in fact, let's take a look at one transaction that b.c. r ail Properties has managed. l et's look at the quarter- billion-dollar lease arrangement that b.c. r ail Properties has actually managed. The member opposite might want to…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat. it's your time, Members. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. S.

Bond: l et's talk about the quarter-billion-dol- lar transaction that actually saw not only that investment for british c olumbia's taxpayers but drew additional private sector investment of over $200 million. The member opposite might want to trivialize private sector investment in british c olumbia. We're going to take advantage of every single opportunity to deal with private sector investment and advance our a sia-Pacific strategy every opportunity we get. Go Vern Ment han Dlin G o F touri SM b.c . S.

Herbert: The opposition filed an Foi seeking rec- ords related to the b.c. l iberal decision to axe t ourism b.c. The request included all records, reports or assess- ments that had been carried out on t ourism b.c. that in any way informed the decision to close it. t oday we learned that there are no records, no reports and no reason to justify eliminating b.c.'s industry-led award-winning marketing agency just six months before the o lympics — a decision that the head of c anada's national tourism association has called a real setback.

So to the minister: how could the minister make a decision that puts our tourism industry at risk with no records, reports or assessments to back him up? Hon. K. Krueger: We are on the brink now, just over 80 days from the greatest marketing opportunity that british c olumbia will ever have — three billion pairs of eyes focused on british c olumbia. [1420] interjections. Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat. Hon. K. Krueger: Three billion pairs of eyes focused on british c olumbia…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: Minister, please take your seat. c ontinue, Minister. Hon. K.

Krueger: Three billion pairs of eyes focused on british c olumbia — 15,000 foreign journalists cov- ering our jurisdiction for months. Faced with the big- gest marketing opportunity we'll have in our lifetimes for british c olumbia, in the toughest world economic climate of our lifetimes, we brought together the 146

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 2583 people of t ourism b.c. with a similar number in the ministry. They're working flat out. There are 35 teams of people who are ready to maximize the post-o lympic opportunities. it's nothing but good news, and we can't understand why they don't like good news. interjections. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. S.

Herbert: The minister talks about a great oppor - tunity to market b.c., but then he takes the industry-led marketing group which is supposed to do that market- ing and takes the axe to it, shuts it down, kicks it to the ground — the award-winning industry-led marketing department. The minister has said the decision to do so was about cost savings and efficiencies, but according to his min- istry's response to the Foi, there are no records, reports or any assessments which show that there are any sav- ings at all. a gain to the minister.

So we've got b.c.'s c ouncil of t ourism a ssociations, the t ourism a ssociation of c anada, t ourism Victoria, t ourism Vancouver, the Wilderness t ourism a ssociation — all unanimous that this was a stupid and devastating decision, on one side. a nd then on the other side, we have the Minister of t ourism caught naked with no study or analysis sup- porting his axing of t ourism b.c. Who should we believe, Minister? i know it's a dis- turbing image, but who should we believe, Minister? Y ou? or should we believe the tourism industry? interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. interjections. Mr.

Speaker: a re you finished, Member? interjections. Hon. K. Krueger: My colleagues are urging me to resist the temptation. o h, the burns that spring to mind. but faced with…. interjections. Mr. Speaker: c ontinue, Minister. Hon. K. Krueger: but it only makes sense when you've got a huge opportunity and limited resources to make sure you combine those resources, to make sure you focus them on achieving the goals that are set out before us — the fantastic opportunity we have. We don't want to waste a dollar. We don't want to waste any human effort. We're ready.

The ministry, with t ourism b.c. melded into it, is ready for this huge oppor- tunity, and i hope the members opposite will join us in really taking advantage of that opportunity. it's going to be wonderful. S.

Simpson: The minister says that they're ready, yet what we know now is that this decision to scrap t ourism b.c. was done with no analysis, no assessment, no reports to support this. [1425] The minister might think he's ready, but the president of the tourism association of c anada says: "i was abso- lutely floored when i heard the news…. i'm just not sure the post-Games opportunities will be as accessible to government as they would have been before." The reality is this.

This minister, this government, scrapped an effective, award-winning agency that would make this successful, and he did it with no support. h ow does the minister justify making that decision with no intelligence at all? Hon. K. Krueger: This government has been build- ing for the o lympic opportunity for years. There is brand-spanking-new infrastructure throughout british c olumbia getting ready for this.

Whether we look at the k icking h orse c anyon bridge or the expanded airports around the province, the Sea to Sky h ighway, the c anada l ine, we're ready. t ourism b.c. people and t ourism, c ulture and…. interjection. Mr. Speaker: Member. Member for Fraser-n icola. Member, do you want to apologize to the house. H. Lali: i apologize to the h ouse, hon. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: c ontinue, Minister. Hon. K. Krueger: a ll of that infrastructure is ready. The team is united.

Jurisdictions everywhere in the world that have hosted o lympics say to our teams that nobody has ever exploited the post-o lympic opportun- ity the way that we could have. Salt l ake city and Sydney, a ustralia, are considered some of the leaders, but they say that they did not prepare for the opportunity the way that they could have. We got the teams together. We're ready. The members opposite are going to really enjoy it. [end of question period.] K. Conroy: i'd like to present a petition.

british c olumbia Debates2584 t hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 Mr. Speaker: Proceed. Petitions K. Conroy: i have over a thousand signatures from people from West k ootenay asking the government to stop the implementation of the hS t . D. Routley: Permission to present a petition. Mr. Speaker: Proceed. D. Routley: i have a petition with hundreds of signa- tures by constituents of the province of british c olumbia demanding that the province halt the implementation of the hS t . R. Austin: i rise to present a petition with hundreds of signatures from the riding of Skeena opposing the implementation of the hS t . G.

Gentner: i rise to present a petition from constitu- ents of mine and others throughout the province, those who are opposed to the implementation of the govern- ment's hS t . A. Dix: i am pleased to present a petition from hun- dreds of parents and community members in support of the early psychosis intervention program — that it stay at the u niversity of british c olumbia. Orders of the Day Hon.

M. de Jong: i call, in c ommittee a, c ommittee of Supply — for the information of members, the ongoing estimates of the Ministry of energy, Mines and Petroleum r esources; and in this chamber, the c ommittee of Supply, the estimates of the Ministry of h ealth. [1430] Committee of Supply e Sti Mate S: Mini Str Y o F health Ser Vice S (continued) The h ouse in c ommittee of Supply (Section b); l. r eid in the chair. The committee met at 2:33 p.m. on Vote 34: ministry operations, $14,008,318,000 (continued). A.

Dix: before the break we were talking about the impact of surgery cuts in the Fraser h ealth a uthority by hospital. What we had ascertained was that those surgery cuts will happen across hospitals and that each hospital would have its own plan to reduce surgeries in that particular hospital. For example, some hospitals obviously do neurosur - gery, only three in Fraser h ealth — burnaby h ospital, a little bit; r oyal c olumbian h ospital; and e agle r idge h ospital.

Most hospitals, of course, don't do that. i guess i wanted to ask the minister whether he would be able to provide for us the elective surgery reduc- tion plans for each hospital — the plans that are now in effect, and the plans that obviously are in the possession of people, the Fraser h ealth a uthority, for whom he's responsible in the h ouse. [1435] Hon. K. Falcon: a s i said to the member earlier, we haven't got all of that information here with us, but we will endeavour to acquire that from the health authority and share that with the member. A. Dix: Sorry. i don't think….

The minister in his last answer gave a rhetorical answer. i don't think i quite got that answer, so i'm delighted to hear that he'd be pre- pared to share it. Would it be possible to learn from the minister whether he'd be able to share it before the end of estimates so we'd have a chance to discuss it? Hon. K. Falcon: c ertainly, if the information is gath- ered and assembled in the manner that the member was discussing and we have that available, we'll be happy to do that. A. Dix: i think that was yes. The question i have over- all.… The minister talked about 4.6 percent of elective surgeries.

Does that include the reductions taking place between September 15 and March 31 and what are called the o lympic reductions, which are a further 2,200 sur - geries, or do they just…? is that a total number, in fact — the reduction of 4.6 percent of the annualized total, which obviously is much more in the next little while? Just a clarification from the minister. Hon. K. Falcon: The answer is yes. it does. A.

Dix: i understood from a Fraser h ealth docu- ment that the number of surgeries that'll be cancelled or reduced during the o lympic period — how it's propor - tioned out — was originally said to be 2,200. is that the right number? Hon. K. Falcon: That is correct. A. Dix: if the number is 4.6 percent — so that i under- stand correctly the numbers involved…. So 2,200…. o bviously, what we're talking about is, as i understand it,

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 2585 a 35 percent reduction during that period and a further reduction, i think, in the extension of a c hristmas break period, if i'm correct on that. That would mean that the remaining surgeries…. Well, i'll just ask the minister. h ow many more surgeries will be cancelled in addition to that o lympic period? [1440] Hon. K. Falcon: For the member's benefit, those would be the cases we talked about publicly before, where during the o lympic period….

This has been the experience in other jurisdictions, too, where you have a reduction in cases that typically will take place during an o lympic period, when people generally aren't sched- uling their elective surgeries — both on the medical side, the professionals, but also by the people that are wishing to have surgeries. There tends to be…. a t least, the historical experience for o lympics has been that there is a reduction. That we talked about, i think, a couple of months ago. We men- tioned publicly that there would be surgical slowdowns during the o lympic period leading into the spring break period. A.

Dix: The question is…. if 2,200 surgeries are being cancelled during that period because, of course, people in c hilliwack won't want to go and get their elective surgery done because the o lympic Games are on…. if that's the number in that period, how much is in the period other than that period between September 18 and March 31? Hon. K. Falcon: Just to correct the member, they're not being cancelled. it's more a case of their not being sched- uled.

They're not being scheduled because, again, the historical experience is that when you have a major inter- national event like the o lympics that takes place in your jurisdiction, typically what you have is a desire by people — both people within the system, frankly, and without the system — to attend or participate or what have you. it's typically not a time…. a t least, based on the histor- ical experience that other jurisdictions have informed us on, there's a reduction in demand. People aren't wishing to be scheduled to have their elective surgeries under - taken during that period.

So they've done a planned, scheduled reduction in the amount of contemplated surgeries. it is not cancellations of anyone's surgeries. A. Dix: The instruction from Viha is to reduce or hours by 14 percent in all hospitals in all periods between…. Hon. K. Falcon: Fraser. A. Dix: in Fraser h ealth, yes; sorry. it's in Fraser h ealth between September 18, which is the period the cuts happen, and March 31. This is both in internal docu- ments and on the public record. That's the instruction. So presumably, these 2,200 cancelled surgeries during the o lympic period are part of that 14 percent.

What i'm asking the minister…. if you look at the period between September 18 and March 31 — and the minister, i'm sure, will have this detailed information in front of him — you will see that the base or hours for that period were 47,880. That's going to be reduced to the new or hours, which is 41,177, according to the Fraser h ealth a uthority. i'm asking a very simple question. When you're seek- ing that 14 percent reduction or what the minister tries to characterize, annualized, as less than that…. That's what it is in this period — right? t o get to those num- bers, how many surgeries are you cancelling?

So 2,200 in the o lympic period. h ow many in the rest of the time? i guess on top of that i'll give him a second question. i'll give him something to think about. h ow many oper- ating rooms are being mothballed? if the suggestion is that a majority of the surgery can- cellations are taking place in the o lympic period, which i think is what he was suggesting before, why are they mothballing operating rooms in c hilliwack, c oquitlam and Surrey? Hon. K. Falcon: l ook, i recognize that i'd probably be doing the same thing if i was in the member's pos- ition.

Y ou try to take something, build it up and try and make it something it's not. The fact of the matter is that i tried, in previous answers prior to the break, to explain to the member that there has to be a perspective around the very modest surgical reductions that are taking place — on two notes.

The first is: how are the health authorities doing, gen- erally, with respect to reductions and wait times? in fact, we've seen, on average, an almost 50 percent reduction in median wait times for hips, knees and cardiac proced- ures in the province of british c olumbia — including, in Fraser h ealth, dramatic reductions in wait times. in the context of that, we have….

Fraser h ealth a uthority, in an attempt to manage a 3½ percent pres- sure on their budget, has said that they will do 4.6 per - cent fewer elective procedures for the year. [1445] The member is right to point out that earlier we had publicly a discussion about the fact that there will be a surgical reduction that will take place on the order of, i think it was, 2,200 cases. n ot cancellations. n obody that was scheduled has now been cancelled.

Planned reduc- tions to reflect the fact that during the largest event that has ever been hosted in the history of the province of british c olumbia…. it's far bigger than e xpo 86, for example. The historical experience of other jurisdictions is that you see a decline in the requirements for elective surgical procedures.

british c olumbia Debates2586 t hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 o bviously, urgent and emergent are dealt with. They always will be. but the people who have some flex- ibility as to when to have their procedure done gener - ally don't choose to

schedule it during events of major international significance. based on that, that's why we discussed some months ago publicly that the health authorities, c oastal and Fraser in particular, were going to have planned reductions in the numbers that they were planning on doing — as a result of that reality. in terms of the reductions in the elective surgeries that are being proposed, it's 4.6 percent in the number of procedures. h e is correct in pointing out that the reduc- tion in the or budgets is about 14 percent, but there is not a direct correlation between the or budget and how many procedures get done.

They have found and continue to find ways of deliv- ering services that sometimes can actually increase the number of procedures with the existing amount of dol- lars. That's obviously not infinite, but that has been the experience as we've been working and particularly learn- ing from some of the investments we've been making on the health innovation side. A. Dix: The minister has offered to give us hospital- by-hospital information on that, but what i'm asking is: if it's a 4.6 percent reduction you see….

This is where it becomes easy, because the minister has the information before him. i think he thinks i'm asking something diabolical here. i'm not. i'm asking for the actual information — like, the actual information. Given the reduction he's proposing…. h ow many elective surgeries have they decided to do this year, based on it? it's because 4.6 percent has to be 4.6 percent of something. The minister has the numbers. i'm just asking him to share those numbers with the h ouse. Hon. K.

Falcon: a s i indicated earlier, just before the lunch break, in '08-09 Fraser h ealth did a total of 83,600 surgical procedures performed in all of Fraser h ealth. of this, 65,716 were elective. a s i say, the proposal that the experts within the system — the surgeons, the or managers, the admin- istrators — came up with was a 4.6 percent reduction in the elective component. i think that's about 3,000 or just under 3,000 procedures out of a grand total of surgical procedures of 83,600 that were performed in '08-09. A. Dix: This is a Fraser h ealth document here.

Fraser h ealth doesn't estimate. it stated its number of proced- ures were 70,469 in '08-09. That's from Fraser h ealth documents here. [1450] i guess that 4.6 percent on that…. Y ou don't need too much of the detail, but that's less than 3,000. What would be suggested…. if you're counting the 2,200 in that, there'd just be a few hundred surgeries on top of that. but when you take account of the fact that they're closing…. The number of surgeries, therefore…. i guess what i'm asking for is: what's the number? What is the number of elective surgeries this year?

Y ou have to have that number, or you wouldn't know 4.6 percent. So what is the number of elective surgeries being budgeted this year? Y ou know, we've been raising these issues for months, so the ministry obviously has this information. i would just like to know that number, and we can move on. Hon. K.

Falcon: i'm trying to provide the member with that information. a s i mentioned, the total surgical procedures performed, at least i'm informed…. i have to go…. i don't know what the member is referring to. i can only tell you what i'm being provided. in '08-09 they completed 83,600 surgical procedures, and some portion of those are elective procedures. a 4.6 percent reduction means, on average, about 3,000 less surgical procedures out of the total procedures of 83,600. That's what i'm informed of. A.

Dix: Perhaps we're just not understanding each other properly. i just want the number now of elective procedures that they're going to do this year, and the minister can provide that number to me elsewhere. i don't want to get stuck on it. i think he just said, "4.6 percent of the 84,000" and not "4.6 percent of the 65,000." i think he meant "of the 65,000." i think that's what he meant. if he could just provide us with the number they're expecting to do after these cuts — or changes, as the minister likes to call them — this year, then we can move on to that.

Perhaps the minister can tell us, then — just because it's the same broad subject; then we'll come back to Fraser h ealth — how many fewer surgical procedures are going to take place in Vancouver coastal h ealth this year? a s the minister will know, we released some informa- tion about one plan out of Vancouver c oastal h ealth, which saw a dramatic cut in surgery. it's a plan, i'm happy to say, that i believe the health authority abandoned. Far be it from me to take credit for that. it was good news, anyway, for people waiting for surgery in Vancouver c oastal h ealth.

They seem to have abandoned the worst parts of that plan. Presumably, the same thing is going on in Vancouver c oastal h ealth with respect to the o lympics. There are, if i remember correctly, between 1,000 and 2,000 elect- ive surgeries not going ahead because of the o lympics. What is happening at Vancouver c oastal h ealth with respect to elective surgeries? h ow many fewer are they doing this year than last? h ow many are they cutting in the last five months of the fiscal year to meet the new targets of the health authority? [1455]

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 2587 Hon. K. Falcon: Very optimistic news on this front. First of all, Vancouver c oastal h ealth has provided record levels of surgeries, as of course we've seen across the province. but over 67,000 surgeries last year, which was about 6,500 more procedures than they had done in the previous year — and worth noting. i want to take a moment to recognize the leader - ship of the administration, the board, the executive and the front-line teams that have actually seen that Vancouver c oastal wait times already are 25 percent lower than the provincial average.

So certainly some great success. The only change that will be taking place in Vancouver c oastal, i am informed, is that which was discussed ear- lier in line with Fraser h ealth, which is that they will be doing some planned reduction during the o lympic period and the spring break. i am led to understand, relatively modest savings, certainly in the scheme of their budgets, about $400,000. That's not even a round- ing error in Vancouver coastal h ealth.

So they are forecasting about 450 surgery cases that are planned not to take place during the o lympic period and the spring break, which is the typical period spring break where they also plan for some surgical elective reductions. A. Dix: i think it makes sense, and i think the minis- ter would agree with that, that the 70,000 surgeries that a health authority does, given that would come from a range of the surgeries, would be cheaper than the first surgery it does.

My colleague from Surrey–Green t imbers is going to ask some of the other questions just for a few minutes after this one. i guess it raises the question: why is the Fraser h ealth a uthority cutting thousands of surgeries to save $5 mil- lion, when it would appear, i think, to most people in increased wait times and all the consequences that will come from that? r eally, it's not savings, as the Minister of h ealth well knows.

What the Fraser h ealth a uthority is doing is, in fact, fewer surgeries this year, saving $5 million in this fiscal year. but all of those people that don't get it done this year will have to get it done in the future. So the wait times are increasing by however many surgeries the minister doesn't do. i'm just curious to know, because the incremental savings…. t o get a lot of money in savings and sur - gery cancellations, you have to close a lot of operating rooms. i guess the question is, in terms of both health authorities….

We're talking about thousands of surger - ies cut and the significant impact that will have across the board that doctors have talked about. i think the minister will agree that they're very con- cerned. They will have written him and the Fraser h ealth a uthority. Why would you do that for what appears to be relatively little in the way of savings? a s i say, to the minister, my colleague from Surrey– Green t imbers will have a couple of questions for him. i'll be delighted to read his answer in Hansard. Hon. K.

Falcon: e very health authority and their capable executive team and front-line workers — because they're not monolithic, they are in fact separ - ate health authorities — will deal with the challenge of managing their pressures differently. i acknowledge that. a s i say, in the case of Vancouver c oastal, you can see that they are having virtually no impact on the number of surgeries they have done over last year, which was a record level. i think what i would say to the member, just gener - ally speaking, is that the perspective is important.

Y ou know, when i talked about average wait times reducing by almost 50 percent in the key areas of cardiac, knee surgeries and hip surgeries in the province of british c olumbia, it is within that context that Fraser h ealth is making a very modest — albeit, they're real — reduction of 4.6 percent in elective surgeries.

The important thing to note, too, is that the Wait t ime a lliance, which is an alliance made up of phys- icians represented by the c anadian Medical a ssociation, which is physicians from one end of the country to the other, have actually put together a scorecard where they are measuring the wait times in every province right across c anada. i think it is worth noting that the Wait t ime a lliance has recognized british c olumbia as among the very best in the country in terms of the wait-time reductions we've seen in the areas of cataract, cardiac and, of course, hips and knees. [1500] So while i recognize that, in the case of Fraser h ealth….

They are having a very modest reduction this year in the midst of very challenging economic circumstances externally. The fact that they are trying to manage their budget with a 3½ percent pressure on their budget, even with a 20 percent budget increase over the next three years…. i think that all of the health authorities are trying hard to look at the decisions they're making in recognizing that they are trying to minimize the clinical impact as much as humanly possible.

That varies between each of the health authorities. i acknowledge that. but i do think it is worth noting that whether it's Fraser h ealth, Vancouver c oastal, interior, n orthern or PhSa, they are all working very hard and doing a good job in trying to do that, recognizing that these are difficult circumstances even with 20 percent budget increases. S. Hammell: i'll just carry on this line of questioning around the n orthern h ealth a uthority. We'll move to n orthern h ealth and to Viha, but i would just like to put this into context.

british c olumbia Debates2588 t hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 it is interesting that the minister acknowledges there are individual differences within each health authority based on their activity. They make different decisions in terms of cutting or reducing their activity based on the challenges they're faced with, which seems to me to lead to the reflection of a conversation earlier today. We talked about how the standardization of service plans was making things uniform across the board when, in fact, there is quite a significant difference in activity and action going on within each health authority.

That would seem to indicate that there possibly should be some variations in terms of service plans because there are different activities. My question, though, to the minister is around…. We'll start with the n orthern h ealth a uthority. c ould you tell us in the h ouse what the total number of sur - geries is? What elective surgeries are being planned, and what is the reduction? [1505] Hon. K.

Falcon: We're now talking about the n orthern h ealth a uthority. a gain, this is a health authority that is seeing an operating budget increase of 20 percent over the next three years. in their case, they are managing a pressure that is somewhat less than the l ower Mainland — nonetheless, still a pressure of 2.1 percent. i'm advised by staff that the number of acute care in- patient surgical procedures performed in nha is 8,481. i'm advised that there are no plans for reductions to the elective surgeries in this year. A.

Dix: because we're trying to get a sense of the nature of the reductions, if we can, in Fraser h ealth…. i think we've talked about n orthern h ealth a little bit, and we know that on Vancouver island the reduction is in the neighbourhood of a thousand, i think — maybe a little less, maybe 760 in terms of surgical reductions. i think that's right. in interior h ealth it's a little more opaque. it's seemingly done by regions.

There are some surgeries cut, but it's in the same area, i think — 800. in n orthern h ealth the min- ister is saying that it's flat. in Fraser h ealth we're saying that it's 4.6 percent, and we'll find out of what. That's the nature of the surgical or elective surgery cuts. c umulatively, we're talking about probably a very small number of savings, although obviously a very significant impact for people. in terms of Mri procedures just in this period, we know that we're going from 22,500 in Viha to…. They initially said 18,100, and i think they've restated that as 19,100.

Going back to Fraser h ealth, my understanding is that they are planning to stick to the same number they did last year. is that a correct understanding? [1510] Hon. K. Falcon: i'm advised on two things. First of all, the number of Mri machines from 2001 to 2008 in the Fraser h ealth region….

There have been 12 new Mri scanners added, which increased the total from nine Mri s in 2001 to 21 today. i'm further advised that the ceo , Dr. n igel Murray, earlier this year in a progress report suggested that the Fraser h ealth a uthority was going to hold the health authority's Mri volumes at last year's volumes, which are 10 percent higher than the previous year and — again, to put it in perspective — about three times as many as were performed in 2001. A. Dix: So just to understand…. The public fund- raised in burnaby and at Peace a rch for two new Mri machines this year.

There were large public fundraising campaigns at both of those facilities. if the number of Mri s is the same, and you add two machines, by def- inition you are reducing the number of Mri s done at each individual facility. is that an accurate description of what's going on? [1515] Hon. K.

Falcon: The member is right to note that there are indeed even more now — two additional Mri scanners, which allow those folks in that area to be able to have local access to Mri scanners. but as the member would know, even in a perfect world there is…. in our publicly funded systems, often it's the case that we don't have an unlimited amount of dollars to run an unlimited amount of Mri s. What we try to do is maximize as many as we can. a s i pointed out, in the Fraser h ealth region we've seen since 2001 — the year that i first got elected — a 333 percent increase in scans.

That is a pretty dramatic increase. of course, the number of Mri scanners, as i mentioned, has gone from nine to 21. The Fraser h ealth a uthority, again, i am advised, is going to be attempting to meet the same number of Mri volumes as they did last year, which are at a record level and indeed are 10 percent higher than the previous year and, as i mentioned, are three times the volume that was being undertaken in 2001. A.

Dix: The minister will know that it's true in every jurisdiction, because Mri s are used more than they were ten years ago — that that would be the case. h e also knows, because of the c anadian student health information and the c anadian Medical a ssociation, that Mri wait times in c anada are roughly five times longer in british c olumbia as they are in ontario. a ll of that is very interesting, i suppose, but what the minister didn't answer was the question. i mean, i might have asked about Mri machines since 2001, but i hap- pened not to.

What i asked was…. burnaby and Peace a rch went on a large fundraising campaign, and those machines are going to be used not even not at capacity but nowhere near capacity, after a huge public effort.

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 2589 in fact, the bringing on of those machines will mean a reduction at all the other hospitals in the region — every other Mri in the region. it just follows that if you're freezing the number of Mri s, and you're adding machines, the number of Mris per machine drops. That's the point i'm making to the minister — that, in fact, we have dramatically longer wait times for Mri s than, say, in ontario. This is a fact that is established by those reputable bodies.

We have this new capacity, and it has no effect on wait times. it will have no effect on wait times, because they're not doing any more Mris this year, even after the two machines come on. That's the point i was making to the minister. i think it will be evident to everyone. i want to ask the minister briefly about what his plans are for the Mission Memorial emergency department. Hon. K.

Falcon: Just to finish off on our last discus- sion, it is important to point out that, again, record levels of Mri s are taking place in Fraser h ealth. i think the member would know, because i know he certainly reads up a lot on health issues. [1520] but you always have to be careful to even equate the number of procedures with outcomes. i would gladly put our health outcomes up against ontario's health outcomes here in british c olumbia anytime. i'd be very, very pleased to do that.

With respect to Mission Memorial h ospital, as the member knows — it's certainly been publicly discussed — Fraser h ealth is in a conversation with the community to look at the operation of the emergency department. i have personally met with Mayor a tebe from Mission to speak about this issue.

They are developing options on what to do with the emergency department. one of the issues that i assured Mayor a tebe of when i met with him and some of his staff is that my respon- sibility as Minister of h ealth is to make sure that the decisions they make are going to be based on facts that will be shared to everyone so there is no surprise on which the foundation of a decision is being made. a s i have since pointed out, one of the challenges with the emergency department at Mission Memorial is that it sees very little activity, particularly in the overnight hours, where, on average, it will receive nine patient visits after 11 p.m. in fact, only one of those visits would actually present by ambulance. i say that not to denigrate those nine visits, because they are still important visits, even if they are not of a high-acuity nature, generally speaking. but we have to understand, again, in the context of the fact that Mission Memorial h ospital doesn't operate in isolation. o ur health system is a network of health systems. one of the things that we do know is that 20 minutes away across the river, over the bridge, is a brand-new $355 million a bbotsford r egional h ospital and c ancer c entre, the first new regional hospital built in the prov- ince of british c olumbia in 35 years, which has opened up. in addition to that, in the other direction, almost an equivalent amount of time, is the r idge Meadows h ospital, which has seen a tripling of the emergency department during the last number of months. it is within that context that the health authority, on looking at how it is going to deliver services, recogniz- ing that typically, high-acuity patients are being diverted already to those other emergency departments, has sug- gested as one of their options on Mission Memorial h ospital that having the emergency department closed during the overnight hours of between 11 p.m. and, i believe it is, 7 a.m — it might be 8; i'll double-check that — is one of the options that they are in consultation on. n ow, this is a very difficult issue for the community. i recognize that, because we all become very attached to our respective hospital facilities. but i do think, within the context of the massive investments that have been made and recognizing that the health system is a net- work, that those options do need to be considered and are being discussed.

A. Dix: Y eah, and i think the minister will agree with me. i mean, the a bbotsford hospital is a bigger hospi- tal, as was MSa. They get, according to the same report, four ambulance visits a night, which in absolute terms doesn't seem like a lot, although if you're in one of the ambulances, i think it would be pretty important. in the case of Mission Memorial h ospital, i under - stand that between the hours of 11 and seven, like every other hospital in the province, they get less patients. They get about 3,500 a year, i understand.

The minister is talking about nine a night, which roughly will bring you there. i guess the question is….

The minister will under - stand that a bbotsford hospital — which was running at 260 and, now that they've created 24 Path or long-term care beds within the hospital, is operating at 236 — has a relatively poor record right now in the key standard in emergency room care, which is admittance within ten hours. i guess that, and a number of other reasons — signifi- cant risks — underlined in the report that the minister himself commissioned, would indicate to me that it'd be a good idea to keep Mission Memorial h ospital open. i guess what i want to ask the minister, and we can have the debate about that…. i've expressed my view, and he's expressed his view.

What i would like to know is where we are now. [1525] c learly, this is being done to seek savings. i wouldn't be suggesting that the minister would be closing this just because he wants to close it. h e's seeking financial sav- ings, and they've asked for financial savings. They say

british c olumbia Debates2590 t hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 specifically in the report, and i highlight this to the min- ister, that if you don't like closing the er , you have to find other savings in the hospital. i guess what i want to ask the minister is where the process is at and when he expects to have a decision in this case. Will he, for example, visit Mission for a public meeting to discuss that with the citizens of Mission? Hon. K. Falcon: i know that those discussions are ongoing. i didn't put a timeline on those discussions to the health authority.

They're going to have those dis- cussions with the community and with the surgeons. i acknowledge that these are not easy decisions. i also acknowledge, and i think it's right to acknowledge to the member, that yes, there are savings that are realized by doing this.

They're certainly not doing it because it's a fun thing to do. but i do think we have to recognize that this is being made in the context of us saying to the health author - ities: "l ook, with a 20 percent funding increase, you still have a 3.5 percent challenge, a pressure. in managing that pressure, we want to make sure that you are util- izing the facilities that you have in a manner that makes the most sense; that doesn't take away from patient care; that, in fact, can be informed by best practices or practi- ces that we've seen elsewhere." a s i pointed out to the member — it may have been during a previous question period; i'm not sure exactly the form, likely a question period — near the member's own riding is the Mount Saint Joseph community hospi- tal. it's another hospital facility that has two other facili- ties nearby — VGh and St.

Paul's h ospital — that have 24-hour emergency departments. n ow, Mount Saint Joseph's does not have an emergency department open in the overnight hours. What Fraser h ealth is proposing is very similar to what is taking place in Vancouver.

The one thing i can assure the member of…. i know the change itself is dif- ficult, and i know that many in the community will view that change in a negative sense. i think that if we look at the experience of other health authorities and, indeed, other jurisdictions maximizing the use of their facilities, recognizing also when signifi- cant investments have been made, as have been made in this case on both sides of Mission Memorial h ospital — on the tripling of the emergency department at r idge Meadows h ospital on one side and, of course, the $355 million construction of a brand-new, state-of-the-art hospital, a bbotsford r egional h ospital and c ancer c entre, on the other side….

Given that context, and given the fact that the Fraser h ealth a uthority is looking at its budget and saying, "e ven with the 20 percent budget increase, we need to manage the dollars we are currently spending more effi- ciently and effectively," they have looked at that emer - gency department at Mission Memorial and said: "Y ou know, this is an emergency department that, on average, will see overnight visits of about nine per night. only one of those, on average, will arrive by ambulance." n ow, given that reality, Member, and even though the politics of it may be difficult, i do not think that as a Minister of h ealth, when i have a health authority sug- gesting that they can manage their facilities more effi- ciently with some pretty significant savings to the health authority, that that is not something that i should not be supportive of.

So they are having a continued discussion with the community, through the mayor and council. i under - stand that there are a number of proposals going back and forth. but very clearly, what the health authority position is, is if there are other alternatives that are being presented, they certainly want to make sure that they demonstrate equivalent savings for the health authority on a go-forward basis. A.

Dix: The minister talked about what's clearly his preferred proposal, which is to reduce the hours at the er at Mission Memorial h ospital. i just note to him that all of this has been in the period, as he likes to say, since he was elected a member of this h ouse. The Mission Memorial h ospital has lost the maternity ward, lost more than half its acute care beds, lost icu . n ow he's proposing to downgrade the emergency room, and none of these things have come back. in fact, this is capacity that has been lost by that community.

So the community is legitimately questioning the plans that the minister has for the hospital. [c. t revena in the chair.] Those are 3,500 nighttime visits — 19,000 visits overall, which is not a dissimilar number to the r idge Meadows number. it's the hospital that people in Mission go to when they need care. That's the reality of it, and you see that reflected in the report. [1530] So if it was just a question…. i guess the minister has confirmed that it's basically a budget question, that if they don't like that, then they're going to have to take some other service out of the hospital.

That's what the report says. That's what the authority says. That doesn't seem to me to be an evidence-based approach, but there it is. Then maybe the minister could address or has addressed or would address the idea of the risks, because when you lose an er , of course, it cre- ates other risks in the hospital, and the other risks to patients at Mission Memorial h ospital are underlined in the report. h e seems to be advocating for an option that would see, really, yet another major downgrade.

Sometimes i think it's five major downgrades, and sometimes i think it's six. but it depends. one, i think, can be counted in

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 2591 two phases. but it would be the sixth major downgrade of an important hospital in that region, and it sure mat- ters to the people of Mission. i agree with the minister to this extent. This is not an easy decision, but it sure matters to the people of Mission. We have seen time after time after time the Fraser h ealth a uthority come looking for savings only from the people of Mission. Hon. K.

Falcon: l ook, i think every government has to occasionally make difficult decisions. i know that the member would know that when the nDP took office, there were 84 acute care beds at that hospital.

When they left office, there were only 42 beds. i don't doubt for a second that those probably were not easy decisions for that member while he was in the government of the day, nor for the Minister of h ealth of the day. one thing i do know and am learning rapidly and am informed on as i meet with more and more medical professionals — and, i think, something that we have to keep in mind — is that the practice of surgical and surgery for physicians is a very, very important practice. a ctually, best practices, particularly in areas of maternity, because the member mentioned that….

Volume is very, very important for the best outcomes for the women that are receiving birthing from a medical professional, from an obstetrician or a physician. There's no question, Member, that these decisions are a challenge and can be a challenge, but i do think that we have to listen to some of our medical experts and the things that we have learned, not just here but around the world, in terms of operation of our medical facilities.

Y ou know, one of the things that i said at the begin- ning of my remarks is that this is a health system. in my community of Surrey, for example, when the a bbotsford hospital and cancer care centre opened, that actually provides a benefit to the system, including in Surrey. n one of these hospitals operate in isolation, whether it's Peace a rch or Surrey Memorial or a bbotsford r egional h ospital and cancer care centre or Mission Memorial or r idge Meadows, they are all part of a system.

We have to look at what's happening across the entire system. a s i mentioned, we have a situation in this case where we've got significant investment made in the tripling of the emergency department at r idge Meadows on one side of the Mission Memorial h ospital, and on the other side, we've got a situation where we've got a brand-new hospital, the $355 million a bbotsford r egional h ospital and cancer care centre. Why is that important?

That is important because when we think about patients and the kind of care that we want to have those patients receive, i can tell you that one thing we do know from the numbers that are presented by Fraser h ealth is that the overwhelm- ing number of visits to the Mission Memorial emer - gency department are taking place during the daylight hours. There's just no question about that. The number of visits that take place in the overnight hours is very, very modest — as i mentioned, nine on average and one presenting, on average, by ambulance.

When we are asking our health authorities to manage their dollars responsibly, i do think they do have an obli- gation to say: "Well, you know what? We just made a massive investment over here.

We made another mas- sive investment over here." [1535] This is a system that we are providing, and the best practices suggest, particularly on high-acuity patients that have been involved in serious incidents, that you certainly want them to be presented at the high-volume tertiary facilities that can provide the best possible ser - vices to those particular individuals. is it difficult pol- itics? i absolutely acknowledge it is. n o question about that. but i have to point to the experiences, as i men- tioned, in Vancouver, where we've got very similar situa- tions. if you look at the service that's being provided in Vancouver today, whether at Mount St.

Joseph's or VGh or St. Paul's, it is an exceptional level of service. We are recognized by the c onference board of c anada as having the best health system in the country. i do not believe that the options they are discussing with Mission Memorial are taking away from that one bit. A. Dix: Well, the continued cuts to Mission Memorial h ospital have taken away from it quite a bit. i just note to the minister that according to his own chair of the board, he gave the fastest-growing health authority, maybe, in the country — certainly in the province — a 2.9 percent lift this year. That's what he gave them.

That's what the chair of his health authority says he gave. n aturally, since they barely balanced the budget last year — they, essentially, were right on the number — this meant that there were going to be cuts. This govern- ment signed many contracts between 4 percent and 5 percent for workers — there were reasons for that three years ago, and they took lots of credit for that — which they haven't funded. o ther inflation in health care is very high. Y ou've got a very fast-growing health authority, and there's a short- fall, and that's why.

Surely the minister isn't suggesting that there was a $160 million shortfall because people were incompetent. That's the issue we're facing. i would say, in the case of the Mission hospital…. i was very interested to hear the minister talk about maternity beds. This will allow us, perhaps, to transition to another question. The minister will know that the Fraser h ealth a uthority produced a plan that suggested that they were going to consolidate pediatric units and maternity units. h e just referred to what he called best practice. i'll just read what that plan says. it says: "The research

british c olumbia Debates2592 t hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 in pediatrics supports maintaining critical mass at spe- cialized sites as a good threshold for safety for our child patients." Since the minister is mentioning that, perhaps the minister can tell us the progress or the results of the review of the pediatric unit at l angley Memorial h ospital. Hon. K.

Falcon: i know that the member and i will disagree about this continually, but i do want to put on the record that the increase, again, to the health author - ity budget this year is 5.9 percent. it's worth noting that since 2001 the Fraser h ealth a uthority has seen a budget increase of over 62 percent. So this is not really a discussion about whether more money has been added. That is very, very clear. it is really a question of…. in spite of the massive increases in funding that have been provided, there are still chal- lenges in the system.

With respect to the member's reference to reviews that are underway, my understanding is that they are still working on those reviews. We expect that we will see those in the coming weeks, and then we will have a discussion about them. A.

Dix: The minister and i had a brief exchange in the l egislature this week about the closing of the ado- lescent psychiatric unit at a bbotsford r egional h ospital and the six beds involved in that. o bviously, that has real implications. [1540] Just a year ago, a previous Minister of h ealth and the health authority were talking about this as an important innovation, as a crucial innovation to health care. What we're seeing, therefore, is a shift. They went up to 16 beds.

There's clearly demand. i think the minister would agree there is acute care demand for psychiatric beds for ado- lescents in the Fraser h ealth a uthority. in fact, in some respects, the Fraser h ealth a uthority is, if you take the same comparative view, under other health authorities in terms of its access to mental health services. i want to ask the minister — the minister talks about transferring patients to Surrey — if he is aware of what kind of wait times there are for the beds in Surrey, whether he is aware there are no acute beds that teens can be admitted to on the weekend in all of Fraser h ealth, and whether he is aware that, in the case of the ten-bed Surrey unit, two psychiatrists recently resigned, which has put that unit under stress as well. i guess what i'm asking the minister is — because there is a strong evidence-based argument to open the unit not 15 years ago but last year — why the decision has been taken not to continue to recruit and find people for that unit, why the decision has been taken to close that unit given the critical shortage of those services and the wait time to get into that facility in Surrey.

Hon. K. Falcon: a s i mentioned in the previous exchange we had with respect to this, since the ado- lescent psychiatric unit opened last year at a bbotsford r egional h ospital and c ancer c entre, they've faced real difficulties in staffing that unit. it's one of the reasons why just two of the six beds have been occupied. So it's been operating at 30 percent of its capacity. The challenge of staffing is a very real and significant one. Just so the member knows, only two of the beds were occupied.

So it doesn't mean that everyone necessarily has to be transferred over to the Surrey psychiatric ward. in fact, what they are also doing, as i mentioned in the previous response to the member, is investing $400,000 to enhance the local adolescent crisis response program and also develop an adolescent day treatment program locally for residents that are impacted with issues of mental health. n ow, the challenge that they've been having at the adolescent psychiatry side is finding the medical profes- sionals necessary to staff. The member just talked about a couple more that have been lost in the Surrey area.

The Fraser h ealth a uthority is attempting to develop a pool of adolescent psychiatrists so that they have a pool they can draw from to more appropriately utilize, whether on a day treatment program or in the case of in-patient beds. is it a challenge for them? it certainly has been. it's been a real struggle in staffing that unit. a s i say, only two of the six beds were actually utilized. They've made these decisions — again, though not easy — to try and respond to the reality that they're facing, particularly in having dif- ficulty attracting the medical professionals they need. A.

Dix: The fact of the matter is that this is a cost-sav- ing initiative. They're saving $1.1 million. Fraser h ealth is claiming it's going to reinvest some of that money — a smaller share of that money, less than half of that money — in other services. That's the claim, i guess. but the sav- ings is $1.1 million from those services. i'll just read to the minister, because i think it's import- ant to refer to the experts. Who are the experts? Well, i hate to say it. We'll start with the Ministry of h ealth Services itself.

What does it say? it says that a new ado- lescent psychiatry unit means earlier admission and quicker access to treatment for adolescents with challen- ging mental illnesses. That's what they say. That's what the ministry said when the unit opened only one year ago. What does a teacher working on the unit, bruce Dugdale, say? o ver 70 adolescents went through that unit in its first year of operation. a s you know, these are critical cases. They're critical cases because of what they mean.

We talk about these things in terms of savings sometimes. [1545] i have talked in the last few days, i'll tell the minis- ter, and had incredibly moving stories from some of the people who have actually been on the unit and received

british c olumbia Debatest hursday, n ovember 19, 2009 2593 care and, in their minds, got better as a result of the care they got there and thought it was essential for them. Seventy adolescents went through the unit. What does Mr. Dugdale say? "For the past year i have worked on the unit as a teacher. Dur- ing that time i have seen many young people arrive at the unit extremely ill and unable to function in their communities. c er- tainly, many were incapable of continuing successfully with their schooling.

"Many of these adolescents became healthy enough to return to their families and schools in a very short time. Families who were devastated by their child's mental illness have been able to leave the hospital with hope, something they did not have." So a year ago they opened the unit. This is what's happened. Derek Smith — and i quoted this to the minister the other day — said: "This is a really unacceptable situation. The unit's just opened. t eens will continue to be under - served here. h

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H1119pm-07
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H1119pm 07
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	126950e420bd99cdc5bc1fdf253e0d52388e497d

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