VOL. l PRELIMINARY UNEDITED "::RAN'SCRIPT HOUSE OF ASS&~LY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, DECEMBER lO, 1979 N0.4?

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1722 NM - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please: 000 MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, before 1~e get into Statements by Ministers, on behalf of ~~e government and people of Newfoundland and Labrador 1 would like to acknowl~dge with deep regret the death of one of Newfoundland's most distinguished sons, Captain Leonard P. Stick, of Bay Roberts.

His tremendous loyalty, his strength of character, his wide- ranging ability signify the contributions which he made in ~~e military, politics and in private life. Captain Stick was born in St. John's on February 7th., 1892, was educated at the old Methodist College in the City. In his early days he was an ardent sportsm~~ and played on football teams and hockey teams, including the old :rescent: hockey team. His business career began with the Bank of Nova Scotia in St. John's, but this was interrupted ~lith World War I.

In fact,at the outbreak of ::.he war he was the first of three brothers to enlist in ~~e Royal Nefoundland Regiment, and had the distinction of being Regimental Number one, of the famous Blue Puttees. he served the regiment three years and saw service in Gallipoli, Egypt, and France. He was wou.~ded in the July Drive. After leaving hospital in Scotland,he took an officer"trai~Ani coursr and received the rank of captain. He went to India in l91?,and served as an officer on the Afghanistan Boarder and =ne ~yber I Pass. In 1919 he was sent to India where he served in the Indian Army Reserve.

After his war service,he returned to Newfoundland w~d worked in various businesses. In 1936, when the Newfoundland Ranger Force was formed,he was 4334

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1722 NM- 2 P~~IER PECKFORD: made first commanding officer. He served in the ranger force for thr~e years, then entered · private business. He began a >~holesale business in Coley's Point, and later moved to Bay Roberts where he became Manager of Bay Roberts ~isheries. Captain Stick had a keen interest in the political life of this Province and he carried this interest to elected politics. Immediately following Confederation in 1949,Captain Stick was elected to the riding of Trinity-Conception, one of this Province's first members of Parliament.

He served in the House of Commons =or eleven years under Prime Minister3 Louis St. Laurent, and Lester Pearson. In 1954 he was a member of the Parliamentary Delegation to Nairobi, Kenya, and served on a number of parliamentar{ committees. Captain Stick was active in a number of fraternal org~~izations, most notably the Loyal Orange Lodge of Newfoundland, which he served as Grand Master. In 1948 he was rn~de an honourary past Grand Master of the Grand Or~nge Lodge of British America, now Canada. Captain Stick diad on Friday, December 7, 1979 at his home in Bay Roberts at the age of eighty-seven.

Ca~tain Stick leaves to mourn his wife, Hilda, two daughters and one son. Mr. Speak.~r, I take great pride in recognizing the outstanding contribution of this most distinguished Newfoundlander, and I am sure I speak for all members of this hen. House in extending to his wife and family sincere sympathy on this occasion. 4335

December 10, 1979 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): MR. JAMIESON: Tape 1723 The hen. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I 1 of course 1 welcome the PK - 1 opportunity to join myself and my colleagues in ~his tribute to a very distinguished Newfoundlander. Without repeating all of the biographical notes which the han. the Premier has quite properly included in his tribute, I think it is clear if we are today mourning the passing of a truly outstanding and quit& remarkable son of this Province. It is rather difficult to know whac portion of Captain Stick's life to highlight on an occasion such ~s this.

Perhaps the most important, since everything else in a se~se flows from our freedom and our preservation of liberty, is his distinguished career in the Royal Newfoundland Regiment. I do not know if any of us would want to carry a greater honour than the fact that we were number one in terms of the volunteers who offered and who did, in fact, go overseas in the First World War.

Everything after that, it would seem to me, and I happen to know this from a long association with Captain Stick, really was secondary, that in his own way he prided himself on that honour more than all of the others that came to him over the years.

I think perhaps also this might be an appropriate point at which to ponder on the value of life and also on the amount of help, vital assistance,that has come to us in Newfoundland and has probably contributed more to our survival than anything else from what might be described as ordinary citizens behaving in a most extraordinary and generous way1 that we tend to forget, and it is a matter of regret, I suppose, that for people on the sunny side of, let us say fifty years of age or so, except for those who are in putlic life, there is probably today very little awareness of how much we owe to people like Capt~in Stick,for not only, for instance, having carried the battle of Confederation, having sat in the House of Commo~s during that first memorable session, but all the things that went before and all of the things that came after.

So, Mr. Speaker, this is not only an opportunity for us to recall this one particular man's contribution, but to reinforce our own sense of commitment and not to allow those 4336

Decemper 10, 1979 Tape 1723 PK - 2 Mr. Jamieson: who have helped our Province and our country to go unnoticed and to go unremembered. When a man reaches the ripe old age of 87, one, I suppose, has to anticipate and to expect, as I am sure he did, that his days were numbered. And this day in joining the Premier and 4337

<:.1 ece!:'.ber lJ, 1979 Taj:e ~:o. 1724 Ali-J. 1 : • J;>. :~IESC'lT: rr.ernl:ers opposi ~e in this tribute, I '.1-:oulO say to you, Si~, o.nc~ throu-;h you to the .House anC to t:Oe FeOEle · of ~Je~·lfoundlanc1 1 that while naturally W'= mourn Ca.Ftain Stic!~ 's passing ,at the sa.or:e till'e we give thanks for this very full li=e in ~~e service of his Province anc his country. Eear, hear! Orcer, please! ~!P .. SP!!:AI'LP.: The hon .. th~ Pre~ier. PF.E~liZR PE<:;(.FORD: ~~!:".. Speak:er, there are two functions I waul(! like tc perform right now. !!r.

Speaker, one is to issue a :!inisterial Statetrent anCI. the other is to table, if I ar.1 pertritted, a co9y of a state!:'ent t~at was releasee from rny office this morning relative to the '<hole Ncr the~ cod si tuaticn. So I wiJ 1 not tal.:e up tb.e t:.lt'e of ~on .. !!'el!'.l:-ers t.ut ensure t.~at. t~ey have copies .. ~:?.. ROEE~-'!'S: Is ~'lis the statement of Mr. Martin - !1_,-,.c Hr. Slade, yes, l:ecause ! t!1oug'lt that hen. rre!l'rers shoulc' have a copy of it in the House, ;:c perhaFs I should tM le ~'lese first.

The:re are some copies ·A-.ich I 'l<'culc ask the page to ~ive to the Leacer cf the Opposition ~~c' ~'le Op~osition Fouse IeaCe~ ar.C t;en respective rr~~bers on t~e op~osi~e side as far as they go ~~c get copies ta~en off for all other han. Pe~bers. I ~'link it is extremely important because I view the information in this staterrent as being most valuable anc very crucial to the kir.c of positicr.. that obviously this hen. House is taking on this matter. So ! will just table that anc take no other time on it, si~ply to say that - I'P.. NEA?.Y: (Inaucible) the statement.

P?.EM!FP PEcrFOFD: \oi'ell,I do ret '-c.;ve a copy of ~~em and trey d~d r..ot prcvice ~e ~i~~ copies. Suffice it to say that I have provided ~~el" and everybody eJse <"ea,ing ~•ith t....,_e feceral gover!"_'l'.er.t wit..'l copies of ~l-J.is particular stater.;ent that I a~ nrn·· tab ling. Eut I >Till let t.'lat stand for itsel~ ?rC it can stand for itseJf in ar.solute, relative ~~a ever; other ter!l' possL~le, the information ~~d the data containec in there. · 4338

Ta~ . 0. 1724 . !i-2 ea~te t!".~t to !'!o . trcJ!lbera m-m judgeme~x ,siup_y 1:.0 say -y ow . o?inic~ ~~ .:. t. ?t.tt to c;et on t~ t..,e ~ea:son ·ny ! sot U? .:.:t ~e ~~st ::lace, !1r . gea..l.>er, seeing :...~at t.~a.t important :na:tar is o:.tt o-: t_,e we.y, is tc- make a statel"ent on the F'J..She:-ies Loa.""\ !'loan:, ·,o~hich I 1-.r.o is of i:"!teres-c to aJ.l hor. . !!!P.rnbers o:- t.':e !-louse a.-...r! to !ishe!"ll"en arou."lc t'le !?rcVin~ . Or.

Octo . e::- 1St~ ! ac._.rt..Ouccee qovgn'r"en ... • s int.~nt:.n· n to conCuct a. =cmple e r vie w o= t..,e o.:- er.a t.i=-~s a-:r activities of onsistent ; ·i!:..'1 t.."'.e cve=all rish'=!~:es ("~a.irrar.s~i::' ef ~!...:' . li!i ~-~!SS~ 1 ~o a.ssis-: the s-pecial cc==""' ttee- :.r. con.r:':.1c~i:-t~ t~l! ~~:icw .a."":C ":.: f i:-ect Ca~· to Cc.y acti vi ~ .:.gs o f ~ ; ~ _ ca=C:. 1339

Dece~er 10, 1979 Tape 1725 EC - l Pi.EHIJ::R PECKFO~: Cornr.U.ttec a..."ld I artl now in a position to announce u-.easures government will implement bet~<een now and Harch 31st when our final strategy will be in place. As of today, government has committed $24 million to ~~e Fisheries Loan Board for the current fiscal year, 1979 - 1980. SOME HON • lwlBERS : Hear, hear: PRE.!UER PECKFORD: This compares with $7 million for the last fiscal year, 1978 - 1979.

Even wi~~ ~~s massive input of new capital, ~7 million last y:ar, $24 million this year, the Loan Board currently has on hand 766 applications for loans representing approximately $34 million. This heavy demand for capital funds is a direct result of the resurgence of our fishing industry and the bright prospects whicn ~'lat industry holds for the future. To meet this demand for funds, government is now investigating the feasibility of having the chartered banks provide capital for fisheries loans, particularly the larger loans.

Under such a progr~~. government would subsidize interest rates so tl1at fishermen would get loans at the same ra-ce as from t.'le Loan Board. Negotiations "(ith the chartered banks are progressing very favourably, and I expect to be in a position to make a further announcement in ~'lis regard wit.'lin a matter of •,;eeks. As memers of this hon. House are aware, the provision of fisher] loans and bounties for vessels and equipment is intimately linked with the prosperity and viability of the twenty-two shipyards around our Province.

In addition, with our commitment tf the inshore fishery, we cannot permit an interruption in our pl ;n~ -F')r ~'1e construction of inshore and middle distance fishing vessels, nor ~n interruption in the provision of funds for engines a~d equip~~1t loans to enable fis hermen already in the fishery to operate next season. For tnese reasons, we have aut.'lorizec t.'le Fisheries Loan Board to finance ~'le irrmediate construction of t wenty . 4340

December 10, 1979 Ta!,)e 1725 EC - 2 siltty -five foot range and ·to consider exis ·::.ir.g a;:o;:>licat.ions for the ?=chase of eng'i .nes and electronic anc . ydrauli:: e~uipl!'.ent. ~e vessels wil l be ouilt and ec;:uiP"ped w:der t he foll owing t.ertl'.s a::d condi dons:

l) tile vessels must ~e betwee~ fo~ty-five and sixty-five :eet iP- ove~ all length; 2) tile vessels :nust be of wooC.en cor.strucdo;,; 3) tile vessels m;:st be oui:t ill i:lewf ouncl.ane .:;hip yards; 4) only fishermen wilo have <o;ualifieci =or federal suosidy will be co~sicered; 5) tile dO>m.payme n t. is eo ::>e !.0 per ce:rt. of t.'le ove:-all cost for v~ssels a...-,d 15 ~_r c_e:1t for e..~gines and aquip:ae:1t;

o) inte r est will be c.'larged at t.'1e rate of 6 per cent per a.."'U".um, bot:"! <iuring const:uction and a.: ter completJ.on and eocwnentation of t!1e vessel; 7) "-esse_ insurance will be paid by t.~e 'fis he:nr..a.-.; 9) tie lO<U"lS will be ~~de for a ten year ?eriod wi~'l t.~e first pay~ent of principal int.eres:: eue one year after completio n and doC'Uil'\f;n·eati n of dte vessel or t.":e final p aymenc. on e::~gine or equipmen::. !<!:I . !d..a..--tin t·rni te o :: t.'1e Pi<;h.e:::ies Loa."!. Soard , as been eesiqnated as cite contact ::or "f:~.sher.r.e.t1 e igible unC:er t:.ne ter.ms pnci conCitions of ~~ s ;:oroqramme . . 4341

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1726 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFO.t<D: dr. Speaker, I also expect co be in a position shortly to announce the appointment of a new Chairman of ~~e Fisheries Loan Board as well as a new f~nancial officer to be cf'ignated comptroller of the board. These officials,together with the inter~ Soard of Directors and the Special Committee 1 will finalize the current review and present Cabinet with the final report in time for the Fisheries Loan Board to be reconstituted and be ready to go ac the start of the new fiscal year. Mr.

Speaker, these actions d~ons=ate this government's deep committment to ~~e development of our fishery, particularly ~'1.e inshore fishery_, _-and our belief that the industry has reached a point where greater involvement by private enterprise is welcomed and indeed desirable. TLank you very much. SOME HON. ME.'filERS : Hear, hear. M-~. SPEAKER: (Mr. Simms) The non. the Leader of cne Qpposition. MR. D. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, it is, of course, extremely difficult to comment in detail on a statemenc just having been received when it has so much complexity in it.

I have only had the opportunity over these last two or chree minutes to look it over. The Premier sent it over prior to making ~~e announcement, but no chance for me to consult with authorities and various other people with regard to the contents of the statement its.Cf.

I certainly feel, first of all, that it clearly and unmistakable demonstrates that whatever the rhetoric may be in the first part of this statement with regard talthe growth and the demand and sq forth, that this side and others outside this House have been correct in saying that unquestionably the Fisheries Board for some time now has been in a mess. There is no question about that and indeed many members opposite know that to be the case as well.

And there is nothing in this statement, so far as I can see, other than a comrnittment by the Pra~ier to move ahead rapidly with giving us a . long term plan which indicates what the government proposes to do wi~'1. regard to tidying up what clearly and unmistakably was a most 4342

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1726 SD - 2 MR. D. JA!UESON: least. unhappy situation 1 to say the very Now, if I, in the few IIIDments I have had to peruse this statement, am correct, what is really involved here essentially is a mere_commitment to twenty vessels in the forty-five to sixty-five foot range. That is the only thing that is clear and unmistakable and unqualified in this particular stat~~ent.

In other words, what the government has apparently done is decide that out of L~at enoromous number of applicants now either approved, and I gather a lot of them are actually ana formally approved pefore, that some how or other twenty are going to be picked out in the immediate future in order to get some kind of help, Wh,at ::hat does for the remaining 746 applications, i£ my arithmetic is correct, at this moment in time, is not clear from this statement other than I persume that they must wait. And I do not envy the gentleman, Mr.

Martin-White, who has been designated as the contact fisherman eligible under the terms and conditions of this programme in trying to figure out how he is going to choose those twenty out of 766. It may be, incidently, that the number is not 766 if one - 43~3

~ec~cr 10, 1979 Ta:,;;e iio. 172 7 m,- - 1 confines it to ~~e £crty-five to sixty five foot lengtn. aut in ~• Y event,it is obviously consi~eraL~y more t.nan twenty. ro the extent of course that. these twenty ;,.\11 proviC.e nel.? anC. construction a.:.d for shi:;:.yards around the Province, it is ···elccme.

I am not at all certain,by the way, altnougi1 I ca.> under;;tand "t.lle -'principle, t."lat the concept of the -,-essels being built in ae-;.·foundlanci shipyards, wnet.ler t.1at is going to be in ~1e pre<>ent scheme of things satis£actori to sorr .. e of t;,e fisi1ermen 1 because I under~tand that t:1ere is a 1.:ide ga;;., ;..·:U.cn, I lJelieve. i;.;1e governi;".ent or soiC.e spokesmen fo;; t:1e governli :ent nave acknowledged from time to tiwe between prices in this Province and elsewhere, and so r am not at all certain that t:•is kind of assistance, and t.•e ccnfine­ r~ent of it to ljew£ol!lldland shipyards ,is r;;oing to Le to ti1e advantage a£ fisnermen but I ~ill leave that for a later ti~e to assess.

I also ~van t to sa~r , anC 1 remer:Der ~·our ad.."ilonition, i-!r. ~pea}~er, about :Ceeping r::-.7 ::emarks relatively limited, I 0.0 '<i<Ult to Sajt that I th.i.r!k t.1is house certainly ough-r;: to have tl:e op;;:crtuni::.y to d~ate t:•e. final paragraph in tnis staterr .. ent when the plan cor.-.es to fruition wl,ere the industr.• has reacned the point where greater involvement by private enterprise is welcomed ailti indeed desireaele.

Aad that of course, is lini<ed to the earlier part of t.•e state::nent 1 which indicates that tnere is soing to :Oe a shift from the Board doing the actual financing to t .1e ci1artere ~l banks doinc; it i.lr.~oder some kind of subsidized. interest rates. I az:t not at all certain how this is going to gel ;.;ith resard to the E.oara' s decision as to Nhe~~er an application is appropriate as op~osed to tha-r;: of some ston:r·-eyeci or some reall ~· hard nosed bank r.,anager deciding whether it is ail appropriate basis for a loan or not. But in

summary, Mr. Spea.'cer. I t.'llni< t.'v~ ~remier has made a small and,I emphasize, very s~all move towards resmlvin<; a thoroughlyr untidy and messy situation.

And whatevt:.< hon. gentlema..x. and. ladies opposite may say wiL'l regard -r;:o the last year or .s.o a..'ld the grm•C-'1. in "emand, that:. in itself i:> lielcome, out·t.nE; tr.ere fact t!"lat it v.;as not antici~ated, the mere fact tnat we got outselves into this incredible Saan~les as a resul t 1 I arn quite certain, of l!'.ismanc:.gen,ent and failure to :1andle the r..atter :.:roJ?erli 1 I ti'J.ink is an indication t.i1at t i;e :::eview i:> not onl:i esser.tial but t:-.at I hope that ~'le ?ren.ier and ilis colleasues will move on .1- 4344

Ueceu-.i:.er 10 , 1979 '!e.:;:e :: . 1727 :;·.. - 2 ~d th l:c as ic..st: li:is ;.cssJ.i::.le .:>ecause - 1 ~re is still le.o.rly a gre at. <ieal of uncertainit lezt ar:.cr.g fishe!lr.el". a::; co "'"· ere th.ay ara c;oing ::.o go from here . hear, hear ! i---'lY iurthe r sta~ments? OR..'>L til!:STI O.i;i .ll" .

Spe~a r, th n'ijs o.re = vi.. c; .;o t"a?id.l roda:; we C.o no-c ,.. et:1 er ·.;e have ti:ne to c;;tch ou= reat.: . ! h ve a. ~uc:stio:l' whic: . ! a=l r;oin~ t.o, '"it..-: t"-.is ~en:.issien o r ycl.!.=$, - ir, ask of tl e P ra::..i.er a lbcus: ! :: t.:.ay ~a t.""':a-c el t.h- t;,e :.'..i :.::-cer c: "!unici pal 1-f:ail.-s ( lr . "'i.'l.;lsoz:l or some other roi. i ~::e :: h..a.'j ~e more ep.:_;.ropriat e ~. an st..eri :H; it . ~ ask i~ o f 1-..i~tt oecause I 3:1:'. :10t: sure if ii; is Intergovernmental or not.

There are arounc this P::ov nee, e.s I understand it, a number of are as whlch h ave been developed as buildi ng lilts, a,-,c;: I \:Se my o"'"l'l constic,;enc · of cellevue anC: Sur.ny siee ~ an exarr.ple 1 4345

December lC, 1979, Tape 1728, Page 1 -- apb MR. JAMIESON: where there are, to my knowledge, seventy-five, I believe it is, building lots 1 none of which has moved because the price, as I understand it, is considerably higher than most people can afford. Since there ~~ others in other parts of the Province, and since some federal agencies may be involved, and since, if I may be so bold as to say so, I have heard reports that the Premier is contemplating some reduction in the price of those, could I ask him (

a) if that statement is correct, that some reduction in the price might be being examined, and secondly, what the government might have in mind to do with regard to getting these very useful and serviced building lots into the hands of home builders in various parts of the Province? MR. SPEAKER.(SIMMS) : PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Let me reply just initially and let the Minister of Housing answer more substantively. I would just like to say, number one, that I am personally very aware of the situation.that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition puts forward.

Of course, one of the reasons for the slow movement of the lots in his particular area has to do, perhaps, with the cost, but it also has to do with the lack of industrial activity which was anticipated at the time that the lots were developed. MR. JAMIESON: MR. PECI<FORD: All the more reason (inaudible). Therefore, Come by Chance oil refinery - and need I say more as it relates to his area?- 'but there are many other areas of the Province involved as well and I am personally very aware of it and I will ask the Minister of Housing (Mr.

Windsor) to respond in more detail and substantively because he is very close to it. MR. SPEAKER: Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. WINDSOR: The hon. the Minister of Yes, Mr. Speaker, let me, first of all, concur with what the Premier has already 4346

December 10, 1979, Tape 1728, Page 2 -- apb MR. N. WINDSOR: indicated, that in .many cases aroung this Province the lots were developed at the time because of either industrial developments that were being undertaken at the time, or •,o~ere expected to occur.

Obviously, you cannot wait until an industrial development is in place, you sometimes have to use a little bit of prediction to be prepared for development, particularly in the case of a Come-by­ Chance, where it would appear that there would be a large work force either moving into the area or expected to move in, and, therefore, because there is such a long lead-time on housing developments you do sometimes have to use a great deal of judgement and it does not always pan out, particularly in the case of a Come-by-Chance or in the case of Stephenville, where the linerboard mill closed down, as the hon. gentleman is probably aware.

That is another example where we have a large number of building lots sitting there unsold, very valuable land and a great deal of government money invested there. We are very concerned about it, Mr. Speaker. OVer the past few weeks, ~n particular, we have had a very detailed look at these situations as it relates to why they were put there in the beginning, why they are not selling, why the price, as compared with other building lots, is sometimes perceived to be high. Let me first of all say that the corporation's mandate is to recover full cost. MR. JAMIESON: Labrad,or Housi.:·1g Corporation?• MR.

WINDSOR: Labrador Housing Corporation, The Newfoundlcmd and The Newfoundland and full cost recovery basis without any profit built into it. There are a number of fact.or~. These are federal/provincial agreements, in most cases, and you have interest charges and so forth building up on them. So to this point in time, because these lots have been sitting there, 4347

December 10, 1979 Tape 1729 EC - 1 !1R. N. WINDSOR: interest plays a very significant

part in that particular price. We are looking at ways and means now of disposing of the lots. I am not at liberty to say what the proposals might be or whether or not we will be reducin.g the lots or how, intieed, we may make them more attractive. In some cases, it is apparent now that economic situations are changing, that the demal'ld is coming on, and Stephenville is one example where we had a large nUI!lber of lots developed, where all of a sudden that industry closed down and the d6l:land died for those particular lots. Now that industry is coming back to life, the ,demand is increasing for it.

Nevertheless, t."le price in Stephenville at the 100ment is still probably a little higller t."lan the market will bear. So we have to address that and we will be addressing it over the next couple of months, and, of course, with the Budget considerations for t."le coming year, if it is going to cost a lot of money to the Province, that is a major consideration. There would have to be a whole new major policy direction as it relates to housing.

I would also say t."lat we are re-examining all housing policies - and I think I said this a couple of weeks ago - and as well, having discussions with the federal government; there is a federal/provincial conference hoped for early in ti•e new year. MR. .:;&'!IESCN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: (SillmlS) The hon. the Leader of t."le Opposition. !1R. JAMIESON: ~1ay I ask the minister if in either case t."lat was mentioned, Stephenville, or Sunnyside, the Come By Chance one, where does the authority,rest in terms of making a decision about a change in price?

Is it exclusively within the control of the provincial government to ma.'<e that decision and to bend, as it were, the rule about the corporation recovering its full costs? And to save another question, perhaps I mig.-lt couple t."lat ~ because it is relative to the saving of money;_ Is it not a fact that as long as the carrying charges and t.~ngs of this nature are going on without the lots being utilized, that in fact it would be worthwhile to re-examine whether the government would not be better off 4348

December 10, 1979 Tapel729 EC - 2 HR. uAHIESOti: to dispose of ~~ese properties at considerably less ~,an what they are asking now? HR. SPEAKER: (SillmlS) Affairs and Housing. HR. N. IYINDSOR: The hon. the Minister ~f Hunicipal Yes, Mr. Speaker, exactly. That is e=ctly the situation. Where interest charges are going on, we have to examina which point in time it is better for us to cut our losses, as the hon. gentleman indicates.

It may i:;e just as well for us to sell ~'1em at a loss ra~'ler than keep ~'le cost going up and the loss.:s are just getting greater. ~d it is costing the Province money, of course, to finance these building lots all the way ~'trough. Whether or not it is federal/provincial depends on how you look at it. It is federal/provincial, because they are federal/provincial cost shared. The federal government said, 'Here is how muc..'l we have put into it.' Any losses now obviously we are al:>sorbing 1 or the corporation is absorbing.

If the P.rovince decided to write off Soi!IC of the cost, then it is a provincial responsibility. If the federal government would agree to share in it, which they have not to this poi:~t in time, then it is a federal/provincial one. So it is a matter of negotiating with the federal goverru:tent. But I would think that in the last instance, it will be the Province that will have to accept responsibility and deal wi~, the particular aspect of whether or not to write off the losses. MR.. JAli!IESON: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR.. J h'\IIESON : One final supplementary for clarification.

One final supplementart, the hon. the As I understand it, although the minister was, with respect, a bit confusing about the federal/provincial aspects, I take it that 4349

December 10, 1979 Tape 1730 PK - 1 Mr. Jamieson: what it boils down to is that the Provincial Government, his department, or the government, in general, can decide to sell for less but if that is the case then it must be the Provincial Government t.~t would absorb whatever the additional cost or losses might be. Is that the situation? But the han. minister can, in fact, decide tomorrow if he so wishes to reduce the price of those lots? MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): !lousing. MR. WINDSOR: a loan through CMHC. The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Yes, Mr. Speaker, we could.

It is basically If the interest is going on 1 the Province has to pay it. we could decide to cut if off at any poL"lt in time, if the government felt that is was a priority as it relates to budgetary considerations for us to do so. What I indicated was that if the Federal Government would agree to share in that burden and subsequently accept their portion of the cost as well, then it would be a joint decision. But in the absence of - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. WINDSOR: That is right. - in the absence of that, then the Province just might have to bite the bullet and take some measures ourselves. MR.

FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary question, followed by the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. FLIGHT: Sir, I have a direct interest in this since as the minister knows that there are ninety-one, it is probably the largest in the Province, in the town of Windsor, ninety-one building lots serviced under this progra=e about four years ago and to date not one lot, not one, has been sold of the ninety-one lot subdivision. And ~;hat I wonder about here, Mr.

Speaker, is the minister indicating that the policy in providing those lots in the first place was based on the desire or the possible economic development in the 4350 ...

December 10, 1979 Tape 1730 PK - 2 MR. FLIGHT: given area. And as ~he minister knows that in Windsor's case for years they have been looking for the kind of industrial development that would make it possible to sell the lots and in this case the cart came before the horse, because they still deny the industrial development that would make those lots possibly attractive and saleable.

Well,what I have to ask the minister in the case of Windsor is that as he knows there is at least within a mile of a ninety-one lot subdivision developed by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, of which h~ is now talking about reducing the cost which might well be the only answer, how about the private developers that have at least three private developments going and they are now a little higher than the ones in Windsor.

In the event that the Province is forced into doing that kind of thing, how will they deal with the problems they are creating for the private developers that are in the immediate area developing and selling their lots? MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. liiiNDSOR: Obviously, Mr.

Speaker, if we were to develop building lots and sell them at a loss, _which in other words is subsidizing the cost of those building lots by taxpayers'mone~ if we were to do that in an area where building lots were being developed by private developers at a higher cost, thereby undercutting private developers,! think it would be highly irresponsible on behalf of the government. The situation in Windsor, however, was that - and the gentleman say• i~ correctly - there are ninety-odd lots there none of which are sold. That is the second phase, the first phase of fifty-five lots sold very quickly.

We were under great pressure from the citizens of Windsor and the Council itself to continue with a second phase, and we did, For some reason they have not sold. And quite frankly I am at a loss to explain why the second phase has not sold. At the same time 1 private developments in the area have sold 4351.

December 10, 1979 Tape 1730 PK - 3 Mr. WINDSOR: but in some cases with these private ceveloFrnents !:he pri.;:e has been lowered. servicing, too. You have to look at the level of MR. FLIGHT: One final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): A final supplementary, the hen. member for Windsor-Buchans. 4352

~ecerr~er 10,1979 Tape !lo. 1731 .!'J:-1 :·~:>. FLIGHT: I '•Tender , ~~r _ SpeaY.er, if I cculd ask th~ minister, ohviousJy he has given some consideration to the Sunnvside situation and to Steph<"1'1ville and ;r.ayt-e ot.'lers, but obviously in any <'iscussions he has !'.ad or considerations his C:epart!nent !'.as had .,,it~ regar0 to the overall approach to lots that are not selling, lots that ~·rere indeec serviced by ~:e1 fcunC.lar,d <me Labrcdor Fousing, certainlv t-:ir ..

Csor~ the situation i_., ~·:inrsor 1 1Jst ~ave ~~en hic.7!-~ on t!i.e priority o~ concern ,,:hen you !'.ave a ninety-one lot scl-c~ivision in Phich ::o lots ar2 selling. ~"."ould the rr:inister at this tir.~e care to tell I~e or ir:C.ica-te t.o the Eouse just 't:hat he proposes to do about tr.e :<Jincl.sor situation ~:;. view of the fact that there are inceee private developers 1·1i t.".in c r:-.ile. of that particular f.evelopment serJicing lots based on the general pricing of lets c'evelopee by private enterprise?

Just \;hat is he proposing to do a."out t.'le ninety-one lots in :;indsor that !:ave not been sole to date a.-:.c shm1 no incication right now that the>' will inceec start to sell? !1R. SPEAY-.FF.: Hen. Hinister of Hunicipal Affairs ar.c Housing. Mr. Speaker, the situation in Wincsor is one ~!e are concerned about but it is by no means unique and neither can .,.e f..eal with it uniquely. Any policy that t.'l.e governll'.ent miqht set as it relates to disposal of er.isting building lots ,,,auld have to apply, I think, universally.

It would have to be a policy vhere we say to t.'l.e corporatio.n, "Here is the policy that we are now setting, t.'l.at you may follow 1"and they should apply it equally. !-!R. SPEAKER: A new question. The hen. mell!ber ·for LaP0ile. ~IR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Finance Minister, Sir. Bac~ in 1978, in December, I telieve, it was, !rr. Francis J. Ryan, Q.C. was appointee liquidator to wind up t.'le affairs of Labrador Linerbeard. Waul~ the hen. minister indicate if Mr. Ryan has 4353

Dece~ber 10,1~79 1-!R.n:.l'.RY: affairs of Labrado~ Linerboard? HR. SPFNCE:R: (Simms) DR. COLLDlS : Tape No. 1731 AH-2 corpleted his job of \~inding up t'le The han. Minister of Finance. ~1r. Speaker, I will take notice of t"lat question and I will get '<hatever information is available for the han. mel"ber as soon as poss~le. !1R.SPFAKER: LaPoile. }!R. NF.1U~Y: A supplementary. The hon. mernber for !-'.r.

Spea1<er, 1:-ack in 1979 on a nur.Ver of occasions I put a c:::uestion to t.~e han. gentleman, the hon. ~!inister of Finance (Dr.Collins),about a company in P.ar.turg, Ge~~ny called Schurfeld 3.nc Corrpany that were uncer contract ·.:ith this government, wit.'J. Labrador r inerr.oard, to tr.arket linerboard in Europe and ~!hen the liquidator ••as appointee, Messrs. Schurfeld and Co~pany had held in a bank in Gerr.a~y, I believe, somewhere between $1.5 tr.illion or $2 rr.illion belonging to tr.e people of t.~is Province.

Would the hon. gentleman tell us what progrezs has been made in recovering this $2 million that was frozen in a ba.""lk account in Hai"burg· 1 &enrany that should have been paid over to Labrador Linerboard? The han. Minister of Finance. :>P. COLI.n!S: Mr. Speaker, the hon. merr~er 1 as he incicated some time ago,as~ed me a number of questions a~out Lrtrador Linerboard . .!Ill I can say at t.l-tis stage is that I an a~:ai ting r.ty ·-.~-ringing fonrard the information he requested at that time.

It was quite involved, what he asked, I am not sure 'N"hat they will be 2l::~e to bring forward .and I have inquired recently hel": they were getting on ir. t.'J.at regard and I am informed that they will have somet.~ing for me in the not to~c;iis.t.?ll'!:. furure. t~ow 1 whet'ler t.~is was 4354

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1732 so - l DR. J. COLLINS: included in that 111atterr I am uncertain, but if the hon. member will indicate that it was not included in his former question, I will add that to the info:z:mation we are seeking. MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Simms) for LaPoile. Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Final supplementary, the hon. member _!:!R • s . NEARY: Hr • Speaker, the hon. gentleman is quite right, I have asked a number of questions about Labrador Linerboard that I have not been able to get any information on.

This particular matter,that I would consider to be a matter of urgent, public importance because it involves a substantial amount of money that the minister did not know anything about until I brought it to his attention- none of the ministers seemed to know about this company that had a contract, But I have ; not been able to get a copy of the contract; the minister, the government have refused to give it to me; the liquidator has refused to give me the contract and the company has refused to give me the contract.

And I asked the minister to table the contract in the House and the hon. gentleman refused to do it so far, but as t.his is a matter of urgent, publl.c importance, not an ordinary question,and I put it to the gentleman orally and on the Order Paper in writing several ·times,would the hon. gentleman tell me if he remen ,bers anything about this matter that involves a company in Germany that had a contract to market Labrador Linerboard freezing $2 million belonging to Labrador Linerboard and the people of this Province,refused to give it up and what is being done about it to recover this money? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I can only _•;ii..c:.&:Q.te that at this time I do not have any information that is germane to the hon. member's question but I will seek answers to the extent that such answers are available and to ~~e extent that the information - MR. s. NEARY: Well, the contract is available. DR. J. COLLINS: he is giving is accurate. MR. s. NEARY: Can I not have a copy of the contract? 4355 ..

December 10, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. S. NEARY: memos and still can not get it. Tape lie. 1732 SD - 2 The hen. member for Grand Bank. Look, I am after writing a dozen MR. SPEAKER: order, please! MR. L. THOMS: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health (Mr. w. House). It has been some time now since the incident took place in the Waterford Hospital between the doctor and the patient,and I understand that the Hospital Board has completed its review.

I was wondering if the hen. minister would tell me whether or not he plans to make the findings of that inquiry or that review public and what action,if any, if he knows what action, then would be taken at this time? MR. SPEAKER: MR. W. HOUSE: The bon. Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I have not got any official notification from the board that the review has been completed, nothing official. I have heard unofficially that the review is completed and I am awaiting a report and I have not, at tLis time, decided whether we will make it public or not.

As a matter of fact, I do not think we coul.d determine yet as\ to whether it is incumbent an the board to report but I am awaiting that report now. MR. L. THOMS : MR. SPEAKER: Grand Bank. MR. L. THOMS: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the han. member for Off the record, Mr. Speaker, I was wondering if the minister could tell me whether or not there have been alternate arrangements for psychiatric care to the patients at the Waterford, also maybe to the inmates at the penitentiary? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Health. MR. w.

HOUSE; I am not totally aware of any names of the people involved in looking after the practices at the penitentiary and the Waterford 1 but I understand that there have been alternate arrangements and there are further discussions going on in trying to get supplementary,more personnel carrying on forensic medicine in the Waterford and at the penitentiary,but I do not have any information t_l356

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1732 so - 3 MR. W. HOUSE: as to any names of people who are employed in place of Dr. Paulse now. MR. I.. THOMS : MR. Si>EAKER: (Mr. Simms) Grand Bank. MR. I.. THOMS: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member for I am not quite sure, Is the minister saying that, for example, at the penitentiary there has not been a doctor since the voluntary suspension of Dr. Paulse from that institution? MR. S. NEARY: Dr. Paulse is still down there. MR. W. HOUSE: I am saying that there had been alternate arrangements but I said I did not know the names of the people involved. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. E. HISCOCK: I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Health. Could the Minister of Health advise this House the status of the medical clinic at Forteau and also if the plans are drawn up 1 and if the plans are drawn up 1 could we expect construction this year? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Health. MR. W. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, there has been a fair amount of activity with regard to plans for some clinics on the Labrador coast 1 but particularly the 4357 ...

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1733 NM- 1 MR. HOUSE: Northern part, and some of these are under construction at the present time. And there is one completed of course in Flowers Cove that we officially opened a couple of weeks ago. MR. ROBERTS: MR. HOUSE: It . took three years to build. Well,it took three years to build but it was officially opened three weeks ago. With respect to the Southern Labrador area, of immediate interest to the han. member, there was no allocation for funding of any.~ew C?nstiuction in last year's budget.

But it is a very high priority and we have been carrying on discussions with the International Grenfell Association on that. I do not think there is any hard and fast planning going on at the immediate time but certainly we have that placed as a high priority and it c~·~~·ainly will be discussed in terms of our five. year plan ~ _ But I can advise the hon. member ~at there iE no immediate aativity going on now because we do not have money in the budget for it. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms): A supplementary, the han. member for Eagle River. MR.

HISCOCK: Am I to understand that there is no money available in this year's budget,therefore the planning is not go·ing ahead, and if there is any money going to be available it will be in next year's budget and that basically next year would be devoted to getting the plans for the clinic and probably the following year we could expect construction? MR. SPEAKER: MR. HOUSE: The hon. Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, we are getting now into a lot of detail and,of course,I cannot answer. The han. member knows that ti1at would be a budgetary consideration.

But I have written him on that matter and I think he was advised that we are very actively considering that particular facility because we think it is greatly needed there. But there was no money in last year's budget for it. And I do no know what I can say about next year's budget. Of course,we will know that when the budget comes down. 4358

December 10, 1979 MR. HOUSE: is a very high priority. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Mountains. MR. WARREN: to the Minister of Health. MR. SPEAKER: MR. WARREN: Tape No. 1733 NM- 2 But I want to advise that it A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, A supplementary. It is in reference to a letter I wrote to the minister some two months ago concerning a nursing clinic at Hopedale in Labrador. In this clinic there is one small ward, approximately twelve by twelve, which houses m4le and females patients at the same time, and I brought this to the minister's attention.

I am just wondering if any action has been taken to having an extension built to that clinic where at least a male and a female patient can have some privacy while being a patient at the clinic? MR. SPEAKER: MR. HOUSE: The hen. Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, some time ago I received that letter,of co~se,and I do not know if the han. member has received any response to it. I think he has. But again that is one of the situations that we will be looking at.

I do not think there can be any immediate alleviation to the problem but it certainly will be taken under advisement and will be considered in our future programmes. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The han. member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Transportation, Sir. Would the minister indicate to the House what safeguards, what procedures are used by his department when they award contracts involving the hauling of material by contractors who have to use weight scales? What safeguards are taken to make sure that the department gets the proper weight from these weight scales? MR.

SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Transportation and Communications. 4359

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1733 NI-l- 3 MR. BRETT: I am not absolutely certain what the hon. member is talking about. Are you suggesting on a contract job? To the best of my knowledge weight scales are set up. The trucks 1 of course,woul.d have to pass over the weight scal.es and we have a member of our st:af.f . th<;,re at the weight scales who checks the weight of the trucks as they go through . MR. SPEAl<zR ( Si.imns) : member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, the hon.

Woul.d the hon. gentleman indic ate whether or not his department had any trouble with the weighing at the weight scales on any road work in Hampden or around the White Bay area? MR. SPEAJ<ER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR • BRI:.""TT : Yes, Mr. Speaker. The RCMP were called in and an investigation is underway. MR. SPEAKER: hon. ~er for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: ;.. final supplementary, the Is this the only case to _ :he bon. gentleman's recollection where investigatior~ have had to be carried out into somebody suspected of cheating at the weight scal.es? 4300

~lR. SP;;.rua;R: (SIMi'!

S) Communications. MR. C. BRE'I'I: 1'apto No. 1734 m. - 1 The hon. Ministe:r of Transportation and The only one to my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, that is not to say there we:re not some before 1 but it is the only on: that I a!l1 aware of. l1R. SPJ::AJ:::ER: MR. L. STI.RLING: The han. met:>ber for Sana vista i<orth. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier, Some time ago he received a letter, I received a copy of it, from an organization concerned a.!Jout tile situation 'ldt-'1. Newfoundland ponies and the transportation.is slaughtering them.

I wonder if the Premier nas had an opportunity to investigate that yet? 1-'.R. SPf::ru:ER: !'!U.MIE.R ?EUJQPJ): Tne hen. Premier. I will have to take that as notice, Hr. Speaker. I 11ave spent tile last six or seven da:..·s involved in cod and turbot and red fish anti I have not been all tilat close to horses. I have a nurncer of daughters home who are often close to cats an<i dogs- - but horses? I remember vaguely the correspondence to which the hon. member refers, but I would have to take it as notice to get what our follow up position was on it.

But I am aware T remet:ilier the correspondence in question but in order to give a substantive response to the non. member,and a serious response, I would have to bow until I got additional information. M.~. SPE;u;:;:.R: A .supplerrentary, the hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: Maybe the Premier car. indicate for us and we can do some further checking. Whose area of responsibility \<'auld that come under? Apparently according to the letter that was written by this person - SOME hON .ME!o'.BERS : Oh, oh! MR. L.

STIRLING: There is a very real concern by a lot of very dedicated ~eople,in the same sense t.'"J.at t.~ey are concerned about cruelty to ot.'1.er animals,that tilis practice has just come about that people are coming picking up horses at ver'j low prices, and then just herding them in 4361. ...

Dece~~er 10, 1979 Tape No. 1734 Dl'i - 2 l4R. L. STIRLING: on just the most primitive conditions, transporting them across the Gul.f,.and t.'lat t.':ley are being starved and arriving in a very unaccept~le condition. iiow whose area of respor.si­ .-ility would t.:.at .oe in t:1.e Province? HR. SPB~ R: The hon. t;,e Frew~er. P&.i•U:i:.R P£C.KFORD: I do not Know off tne to;;> of my nec.d.I know tD.o.t W.'.f <;ood friend Le:1ind .c.e, tile FarliiUnantary Assistant, t:1e ;:r.etr.oer for St. Geor<je's (Nr. R.

Oawe), <;;er,tl!llnan far~r.er t..lat lle is, is v-ery keen on tnis J..inc1 of tiung and ne nas been following up on it for rf.e and so · .. e will t:~:y, I ren.e!!lber hearing an interview vaguely soLte- where in the car last night with Gene l'.utrey lout I think that haci to do witil. baseball not with horses. 'l'ne old cow:.o y ! Eut in any case I will undert~e to get whatever information is available and who.t our .i:ollow up i1as :Oeen ana provide to the hon. mer.i.Jer totr.orrow. to!R. SPEA.'-'ER: The hon. mewber for the Strait of Belle Isle. io!R. E. RO.al:.RTS: Mr.

Speaker, did my colleague nave a - one about gnost riaers in the sky. ~IR. ::::.. STIRLI:lG: Yes, I did have one. i1R. SPEAKER: The non. member for the ;:.trait of Eelle Isle yields for the supplet:".entary of the l1.on. member for Eonavista l>ortn. 1-lR. L. STIRLING: Yes, !<'.r. Speaker, I think if you ci1eck hansard I <;;o~ somewhat of the same kind of response from cl~ Pren~er when I was asking him and the ltinister of Fisheries what they .. ·ere going t.; do about t;;~e Northern cod stock back in the Spring when he could have done something about it. MR. 5. NEAR:£: HR. SPEAla.R: t".R. L. STIRLING: I'IR.

SP::A.<l:.R: FREL;IER FEQ.FORD: He did not see clle Gall\lll poll. The hon. member has a question? ne now nas a position on that. The hon. tne Premier. Mr. Speaker, if I could respond to b1at question which was not a question 1 so that tnerefore the hon. merrLer was out of order, we i•ave responaed to the Nortnern cod stock ana we solicit the su~port of tne hon. me~ber for Bonavista ~ortn on that r.atter a.r.d 4362 .. -.

uecember 10, 197S 1·ape iio. 1134 c· .• - 3 .tope!ul1y ile wl.11 be ab._e to support us galloping a~at on ho r ses as ~e is no~ ~upport4ns us sa~loping away on cod. MR. tlE.\RY: poll (inaudible) I".R • .::>PJ::;AKl::.R (~i=s) : oi &elle Isle . HR. R05£RTS : After you call t:.he Gulup oh , oh; Tne hon. ~emeer for the strait ::.r. S;:-eake r, with qreat reluctar .ce I shall pass t.:i? all of the cl:.vious coli'Jr.ents t.1at shculci be ::.ace a£ter tilose que scons. I ~o·. t :1e l're~r.ier- no, I 10il1 not say t>1.at.

Al1Y'•ay a question for the l'.inister of liealt..'l (Nr. house), who has left t..'le l:ouse - M.."t. ;:>. JA!.ul;S Ol<: ltil . E . FDoZ.!U'S: Direct it to t he Prec:.ier. tiell , let a~e tnen ask tne ~.<uestion ::c t.le ?r>..:.U.er and perilaps he can r~fer to bl.s colleague the l·tinister of haa.lth. I 'A"Oncer if we could be brought: U.? to date as to what measures if any are be.ing taken to guard against or co provide for ,.,.hlch woulc perhaps be a bette r phrase in the sicuatl.on 1 43 6 3

December 10, 1979, Tape 1735, Page l -- apb MR. ROBERTS: which will arise if the employees in the hospitals in the Province do go through with their suggested or proposed or threatened - again, whatever word is appropriate - lawful strike. Now I realize additional negotiations are underway, and I would hope that they are successful. But they may not be successful and now that the minister is back, perhaps he can tell us what steps he has taken to put the hospitals in this Province into a position where they can react or continue to function in the event there is a hospital strike.

The time is coming, I understand. I understand it would be possible, lawfully, to strike at some point over the Christmas Season or in the New Year. What has the minister done to ensure that at least some hospital services will be available to the people of this Province in that event? MR. SPEAKER(Sinuns) : Health. MR. HOUSE: The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, first of all, I can advise, of course, that there have been notices in the press with respect to this. We have been aware that both unions are sitting down, I think, with the government, with the bargaining team today, number one.

But we have been keeping bases covered all the time. We have met with the hospital boards and the Newfoundland and Labrador Hospital Association and this, of course, is being co-ordinated by Treasury Board and the departments concerned, the Department of Health, the Department of Social Services, in some cases, and in one case, the Department of Education. They have been in contact with all the hospital boards and, of course, those operated by government. We recc..-,lllize that one master plan cannot do for all the organizations because in a lot of cases we have different kinds of services offered.

We are putting contingency plans in place and, of course, I think we have everything covered as well as it can be covered. I am fairly reasonably happy that, of course, in the event of a strike, that the service , 4364 -.

December 10, 1979, Tape 1735, Page 2 -- apb MR. HOUSE: obviously, will be set back a bit, but we will be able to carry on fairly efficiently. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : has expired. MR. ROBERTS: try it again tomorrow. Order, please! The time for Oral Que.stions So quickly? Well, we will ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: Yes, I have the answer, Mr. Speaker, to question No. 55, a~ked by the han. the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout), on the Order Paper of November 14th. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR.

SPEAKER: Order 2. Committee of the Whole on a Bill, "An Act To Amend, Revise And Consolidate The Law Relating To The Establishmen~ And Admini~tration Of Municipal Government In The Province". (Bill No. 58). on motion, that the House resolve itself itself into Committee of the Whole on said Bill, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt): Order, please! Bill No. 58, continuing discussion on clauses 291 to 300. The han. the member for Lal?oile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, 291. Did Your Honour say 291? I thought we were on regional government. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, regional government, clause 291. MR.

NEARY: Yes, I am sorry, Your Honour. Well, Mr. Chairman, let me repeat the point that we have been trying to make in this debate so far, and that is about the sweeping powers that this bill gives the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. And even though the minister is prepared to make some amendments to the sections dealing with regional government, nevertheless, Mr. Chairman, the '1365

December 10, 19 79 Tape 1736 EC - l MR. NEARY: various sections of the act that deal with regional government still gi.ve the minister and the government, the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, which really is the Cabinet, sweeping powers. l\nd one of the things that I personally take strong exception to is the fact that non-orga~izea coumuni ties, communi ties that do hot have a~y municipal body at all, can be swept up in the regional government concept.

In other words, whether a coumunity likes it or not, once the feasibility study is undertaken and the report is made to the minister, then the government can issue an order that a regional council be established in any given region of Newfoundla~d, whether the majority of the communities in that region are organized or not. Now that is being rather dictatorial to nrt way of thinking, l'lr. Chairman, and that is why I am raising it again now - I hate to be repeating myself in this hon.

House - that a referendum of some kind should be held, ~~at the people should be given an opportunity by secret ballot to determine whe~~er ~r not they wish to have regional government, and not have it forced upon them by a piece of legislation rammed through this house a couple of weeks before Christmas. I was not here on Friday when this matter came up, but I understand that the minister has proposed one or two amendments to the regional government part of this act, mainly to allow town councils in the area to elect a member of the town council to a regional government.

Is that a correct understanding of the amendment? - which, by the way, Mr. Chairman, I might say only came about after the Opposition screamed and shouted and bawled and have been at this for the last two years 1 at least since the original . Regional Government Bill that was brought into this House met its Waterloo, that the government have now seen the light and have agreed to bring in at least a token amendment to this bill to allow the municipalities that have elected members in any given area to elect a member of the town councils where regional government has been designated to that regional government.

Now that is the metro Toronto concept that we have talked about so much in this hon. House, Mr. C.~ airman. But that still does not take care of the situation where you have communities that are not organized. 43£6

December 10, 1979 Tape 1736 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: I would like to hear the minister tell us what he intends to do about t.~ese communities which nave no representation. Will they be given an opportunity to have some input, first of all, into whet.~er or not they want regional government? I think it would be a betrayal of the people, Sir, if this government took it upon themselves to have feasibility studies done and not give the people an opportunity either t.~rough a referendum, through a petition or through the ballot box to decide whether or not they want regional government.

Regional government could be a burden or it could be a blessing. It could create another layer of bureau=acy or as in the case of metropolitan Toronto, it could be a good concept. But I think in the final analysis that the people should have tile right to decide. So I will ask. the minister again if he will enlighten us if he can on how the people who are appointed to do feasibility studies intend to get at communities that are not organized, that do not have a community council, a town council or any municipal body in these al"eas? MR. CliAIR.."''AN: (Butt) and Housing. MR. WINDSOR: for his questions.

The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs Mr. Chairman, I thank the han. gentleman It is something that we have addressed at length, our deliberations on precisely how to put together this particular piece of legislation, because it is something that obviously is very significant, and the acceptance of this particular 43ti7 -.

Dece~ber 10,1979 Tape No. 1737 AE-1 . MR.WINDSOR:

section of the new ~unicipaJ ities l'.ct. I think it is very important that not only it be a reasonable ~ethoc of electing a council but that it also appear to be reasonacle. That is precisely why it requires here that a feasibility stucy be carried out. I point to

section 301 (2) which reads, _ ~'The person conducting t.'le feasibility report has all t..IJ.e powers of a commissioner under the Public Enquiries Act," So it is not just sorret~inq that is a flash in the pan, it i3 not just something that is just paying lip service, it is a fully bona fide enquiry,a feasibility study to decide not cnJ y •,;hether or not it is econol".ically feasible 1 alt'1otZgh obviously t.l-,at is a very il:'.portant consiceration - one would be lo·ath, I t."tink , to establish any regional authority that was financially non-viahle fro!" the beginr.inq, so that is ohviously a I:lajor consideration .

Certainly one of the main considerations would be the opinion of the persons who wouldpe affected ~y t~e regional council and that is precisely why we put in here - and I might adc,by the way, i1r. Chairman, that the collm'i ttee t."tat drafted this partic~],ar piece of legislation reco~ended,in accordance with the wnel~t Report 1 that there J:os a feasibility study. The fact that there be a I:landatory public hearing is a position t."tat has been taken by this government, that ~1e have inserted in t.'lere, that there must be ~ublic hearings held as part of that feasibility report.

That is very clearly to ensure that every person who is effected, who has an interest, any individual, any organization, any council, whether it is a person living in an incorporated area or a non­ incorporated area, every person has the opportunity to have a say at those hearings. So ever]body will have that opportunity. He need not live _in an incorporated area, everybody will be treated equally here. Perhaps it might be a fair argument that a person living in ari incorporated area m~-' be doubly represented because they have elected representatives who woulc also undoubtedly speak on t.IJ.eir behalf.

Because as it relates to elections, the flexibility is ~ere and hon. gentleman referred to an amendment that ! indicated during second reading anc that I will be proposing when we come

December 10,1979 Tape ~o. 1737 AH-2 to the a~p~opriate

section as it relates to elections of regional councils. One of our concerns and one of ~~e concerns of councils is ~~e area that was propos~c previou~ly whereby government should have some appointees and again this was recommenced to us, that government should have a number of appointees on a regional council. The Henley Commission hearings into the St. John's urban region study also recommended that there be government appointees. There 1·7as good reason :or that.

The arg~ents were,of course,tr.at the Province •rill l::e bearing a substantial portion of tre cost of the regional ~overr~. ent and t~erefore they should in~eec have s~e direct i~put.~e ~endreent that I will be proposing 1 or that my colleague will be pro~sin~ when the time is appropriate, when we co~e to the approrriate clau~e, will read that regional councils will be pri~~rily, and the intent is to elect ~~e regional councillors but it coes provice that a nurnrer ~a y ~e appointee by L~e Lieuten~,t-Governor in Council from a~ongst L~e alrea~y elected councillors in the region and on the recommendation of the municipalities: So if you h.:=.d a regional council being establishec' which covered,say 1 three mUnicipalities , then ~~ose three municipalities ~ight - for insta,ce, the structure may be that half of them would be elected and half of them would be appointee frcm amongst the councillors and we wou+c ask the councils to decide among themselves and to recorr.rnend to Ca!:inet the persons from the elected councillors who should be appointed.

Now t..'1e flexibilj_ty is there so that they may be all elected or they may be all appointe~. or L~ere rr.ay be a mixture 1and t.~ere are reasons for that. There are certain structures that I have indicated and I think I centioned already in the debate .. For instance, the committee ~at is established in Plac~nt~a to operat~ their buildir.g, to operate a regional recreational facility, and all of those persons at the ~oroent on ~~e co~~ittee L1at is doing that have teen a~pointec by the councils themselves, the four councils in that area, that are co-operating in L~at project.

A si~ilar situation exists in Grand Falls where a regional water supply system is being operated jointly l:y the cocncils and each cou.'1cil out Lhere has appointed , I thin}:, •1369 -.

Oec~ber 10,1979 Tape ~o. 1737 AB-3 two ~e~bers to sit on ~~at c~~ttee. So :he!:"e is t."'e rationa~e, t.~e~e is the case wr.!!rc t."'ey will he all apFointed but in each case the aFpoin~~nts are ~rom ~"'e already ele ctec councillors. So the people have indeed had a say, t.~ey have elected ~~ose people . And t!':e ot.ier people ~1!':0 might !:e elected at l.arge, they could !le electe<! l:ased on a >:ard systeii:, it might 'be ju.c;t an election at lar<;e or whateve~ is deemed applicable to a partic~lar region and1 o~viously t:.is being ena!lling legislation, it ~•ould he 43'70

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1738 MR. WINDSOR: impossible to set down a rigid formula that would have to be followed by all regions because the purposes of the region, the functions that they will carry out, the reason that they are being estaQlished, the powers and authorities and responsibilities that they have will vary, as will regions themselves. What is applicable in one region will not be at all appropriate in another region and,therefore 1 the legislation must be general enough, must be broad enough and flexible enough to provide for all circumstance _s. And this Nl>l- 1 is what we have tried to do.

But_in every case there is cert3inly provision there for input from local persons, persons involved, persons concerned, and the feasibility study, the mandatory public hearings covers that, I think,fairly clearly and the fact ~at the persons who will actually sit on the council, being elected from the local area, I think covers it as well. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): The hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: I would like to know, just on a simple question and answer basis, I will get up and make some other points later on.

What is the objection"i' I am sure the minister realizes by this time, that a number of municipalities which are going to be affected by this act, feel that the authority should come back to the House of Assembly to be debated. Just on a simple answer basis; with so muc~ _ po~er - it is good enabling legislation- so much power to the minister, what is the objection that the minister has to having it- for _e~l_~, you are not going to prepare that many regional councils, what is the objection that the minister has to bringing that back to the House of Assembly for ratification? 137:1 ...

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1738 NM- 2 MR. CHAI&~~: (Butt) The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs <!-nd Housing. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Chairman, I think perhaps the best answer to that would be the Whelan Royal Commission itself. They deal very exhaustively with the structure that they are recommending that be put in place here. They do indeed recommend the system as we have proposed in this particular piece of legislation. The hon. gentleman is correct, there may not be that many but I think he would have then a multiplicity of individual pieces of legislation..

This is one of the objectives of this particular proposed piece of legislation, to unify the legislation so that there is only one act. All municipalities now, wi~~ the exception of two cities, will be governed by it. To further complicate the issue again by bringing in a bill each time ~~ere is to be a regional council established anywhere in the Province, in ten years time, if we were to establis h one a year, we would have ten more pieces of legislation dealing with the particular areas. So that is over-complicating things a little bit. Nevertheless it is some of the more significant ones.

For instance, we had a piece of legislation here a year ago, Bill 50 as it was, that dealt with the St. John's urban region, which was a very complicated piece of legislation and contained a great many provisions that are not contained in here because it was mOre detailed, it was tailored to a specific area, a regional bill to cover, for instance, the two situations I just mentioned.

The Grand Falls one, a piece of legislation is not required, it is simply a matter of establishing it and putting it on some legal basis so they have some solid basis from which to operate, some legal authority ·-to operate, some power of taxation if that is required.

If we brought back a piece of legislation each time we. were to establi~~ : one of these very simplified forms of regional government, then I think the House of Assembly would spend a great deal of time debating individual situa ·tions rather than the principle, and the principle is what we have been debating here, a principle of establishing -. . 4372

December 10 , 1979 Tape No. 1738 NM - 3 MR. WINDSOR: rac;ional autho r i:::ies where ;:;hey are deemed applicable. ~at we are talking about now are the ~chanics of the thing and that is all that is left. ~s;. provision is general enouqh that is cai1 be applied to an~ situation that we can foresee at the moment in the Province. So what you would really be talking about if you came back eacil time, is the simple straightforward lll.echanics of how to adopt a sy~;~tem and tailor it to a specific region. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): !l'be....han. member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: I will concede to my colleague MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for I.aPoile. MR. NEARY: I just wanted to put a couple of simple questicns to the minister, M:i:. Chairillan. qbviously tll.e govertunent are stiil ~ting under the defeat of that bill last y.ear and the minisi;er mentioned it again when ha 111as replying to my . - . ~ ..... - colleague, the lllelllber for Bonavista North .(~-·. ,Stirling) here, and I would assume that ~diately when this bill becomes law that the govermnent will proceed imme<Uately, if not sooner, to establish regional government in the greater St. John's area, 4373

Decel!lber 10, 1979 Tape 1739 EC- l MR. NEARY: in the St. John's urban region. Would the minister indicate if this is sol Would the minister also indicate what other regions of ~~e Province - the minister also mentioned the Grand Falls-Windsor area, the member for Placentia (Mr. Pattersoni mentioned Freshwater, Dunville, Jerseyside and Placentia and said that he favoured regional government for that area, and we have heard some comments in the House about the Burin Peninsula. Would the hon. gentleman indicate what he has on ~'le drawing board in the way of proposals for regional government?

Will the government go ahead illlmediately when the bill becomes law with regional government in the St. John's area1 'Which they could not do last year because the bill was defeated? And in what other regions of the Province can the minister foresee regional govern~~nt being set ~p,say,at an early date? MR. CF.Al:RMAN (Butt) The hon. the Minister of ~unicipal Affairs and Housing. · Z-tR. N • ..,"L'lDSOR: Mr. Chairman, we do not have any proposals at the moment. I cannot indicate to the hon. gentleman at the moment ~'wit there is any particular area in which we intend 1:0 set up a regional council.

In fact, I made it very clear on Friday - I think the hon. gentleman was absent from the House of Assembly - I made it very clear on Friday that this government has no intention whatsoever of establishing regional governments unless we are clearly sure that there is a need for it in that area and t.'lat the people of that area generally agree that they not only need it, it is also desirable and in their best interests. As it relates to the St. John's area, ~~ere is a great deal of work to be done before we even address ~~at situation.

In fact, I am now in the middle of talking with pretty well every council in t.l1.e region as it _·elates to the boundary issue. In fact, I wrote four or five of the larger municipalities today as it relates to ti:eir particular boundary questions that they have addressed to us over the last couple of ronths. These are situations which I see as being far more important at ~'le moment than establishing a regional authority. ·43'i14 -.

December 10, 1979 Tape 1739 EC - 2 HR. DI!~-;: I t..'link it will come <>bout it in time. I am not in any hurry in the St. John's area to impose anything, if t..'J.at is what the han. gentleman is getting at. I am mu~'J. more concerned, in the St. John's area, for instance, with the boundary issues. The city of St. John's has proposed an expansion, Pouch Cove has been propos in<; an expansion - a requested one - Bauline is looking for incorporation, Logy Bay, Outer Cove and Middle Cove want incorporations, St.

Phillips wants an expansion, Mou.."l.t Pearl is looking for an expansion, Kilbride is looking for some sort of an inoo:r:poration.

These problems I see, in this particular region at the moment 1 as being far more critical than establishing an authority which would bring them all together although that, indeed, is important; DUt I perceive that a group t..'J.at was recently established of mayors of this area, who have gotten together because of the perceived difficulties ~1at may be ahead of us in the region because of, hopefully, impending offshore oil developments, tl1at they have gotten together now and they have already seen that there is a need to get together and have some discussions on a regional basis.

That,as I see it,is, in fact, the basis, the start of a regional council in this area 1 and I am quite happy to let t..'lat grow· and develop. And as we see how t..'J.e boundary issues will develop in this area, as we see what will be the future of regional services as we get our regional water supply completed, our regional trunk sewer completed, as we do ~~s transportation study t..~at is now ongoing - when we see the results of those, then we will have a much better idea of knowing exactly what form of a structure in this area we may, in fact, need to tie it all together.

As it relates to other areas of the Province - the hon. gentleman referred to the Burin Peninsula - I referred to that as it related to t..'le Whelan Commission report which recommended that t..~e Burin Peninsula area might be an area with which we could experiment as a first regional authority. There was also one of t..'le resolutions of the Federation of Mayors and Municipalities, I think, in 1977, as a result of the Wnelan Royal Commission report, where t..'J.e Federation concurred, and suggested that the government move ahead very quickly and establish a 4375 ·.

December 10, 1979 Tape 1739 EC - 3 MR. N. WINDSOR: regional council in the Burin Peninsula area on an experimental basis. We have had overtones from many areas of the Province which can see t.'l.e need for regional councils with authority and this is why, as I mentioned a moment ago, the act is so flexible and so general in nature that it can apply to any one of these areas.

It could apply to a fairly sophisticated form of regional government; it can also apply to a very rudimentary and very simple committee wno see a need to get together as 1 for example, the regional water supply in Central Newfoundland, for the purpose of owning and operating and maintaining a specific service. MR. NEARY: I am glad that the hon. minister and the government have seen the light.

Because the statement that the hen. gentleman just made is a complete reversal, it is a softening of the hard-line position that was taken by the government in the last session of the House when the Hinis ter of Municipal Affairs, who i.Jltroduced the Regional Government Bill, told this House and told the people of Newfoundland that he would resign if he did not get his bill through, that he would ask the Premier to put him in another departlrent of government, he got so contrary and he sulked so much. AN HON. I€.'1BER: He was elected since then with a big majority. :1R.

NEARY: Re-elected since then - well, that will only be for the time being. Mr. Chairman, there is a definite softening of the government's position. They had the hard line when they introduced this Regional Govermnent Bill, and now the minister -. . ~1376

December 10, 1979 Tape 1740 PK- 1 Mr. Neary: tells us that they are going to let this get together by mayors in the area,who are concerned about the offshore discoveries 1 they are going to let that foster and grow. Well, we tried to tell the government that a year ago, that the movement, the initiative should be taken by the town councils and the people in the area and not be forced on the people in a Hitler-like way as the government attempted to do last year. And so, Mr.

Chairman, I hope that the minister is sincere in what he saysJ and this will be the approach 1 that there will be no hard sell, that there will be no threats, there will be no witlli~olding of benefits or assista.~ce of any kind 1 and that no force or no intimidation will be used at all to influence people in any area of the Province, especially in the area that the government have their eye on in the St. John's urban region. Now, Mr. Chairman, the minister also said something else that struck me as being very significant, that has to do with extension of boundaries.

Did I understand the minister cor~ectly, perhaps the minister can confirm this, that he is now making a coiiiiilitment that before regional government is set up in the St. John's urban region that all the Town Councils in the city of St. John's , Mount Pearl, Torbay, that all these municipal bodies, especially the St. John's City Council, that are asking to have their boundaries extended,that these matters, because we do not want a jurisdictional war on our hands, we do not want another - what is that over in Israel where the Palestine Liberation Army , what is. - AN HON. .MEMBER: 11R. NEARY: {_Inaudible).

Oh1 I do not know. We do not want another Sinai on our hands, Mr. Chairman. The, do we have the minister's undertaking now, and the minister's commitment,that the boundary situation will be straightened out before any attempt is made to implement regional government in the greater st. John's area, in the St. John's regional area, that there will be no boundary disputes, that all these 4377

December 10, 1979 Tape 1740 PK- 2 Mr. Neary: matters will be resolved be£ore there is any. attempt to bring in regional government in this area'? MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT) : The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. WINDSOR: Mr • Chairman, what I said was that I see that as being far more critical and far more important at this particular manent than I do see regional government.

I am not sure if we can get every last square inch of the Northeast Avalon Region sorted out before a regional colmcil might be put in place 1 it depends on the demand and the perceived need and the importance of putting a regional council in place, and it could change very quickly, I have already referred to the meetings now being held by the mayors. If they perceive that something might happen very quickly in this particular region, particular~y as the result of oil developments; that may1 indeed 1 make it very, very critical that a regional council be put in place immediately.

What I did say was that I see the need to sort out the boundary issues as being far more important to me personall~ at the moment, and that we are preceding in that • I can assure the hen. gentleman there is no great boundary war.

In fectJ municipalities are now talking to one another saying 1 "We are proposing expansions, and you are proposing expansions,let us sit down and have a look at this and come in with a joint proposal to the minister: And,in faot,as I have indicated and I hesitate a little bit in saying this in the House because the letters have not gone out yet and so it is a little bit, I suppose, improper for me to discuss with the House a letter that I have not yet 111 ,iJ.~-i +:o the municipalities, but I have written today to five or six of the municipalities in the central region, in the city of St.

John's and two or three other municipalities surrounding it saying just that, that here is a map of the region , here are limitations on us, here are some of the requests that we have, please have a look 4378

December !0, 1979 Tape 1740 PK - 3 !otr. Windsor : at them in light of your own requests and get back to us and discuss with other municipalities. And hopefully i.f we could get a joint submission frQm these anmicipalities as to how they see their municipality grow, in line, of course, with their technical people a.cd our s~f is available at ail times. But tbat is the appr oach we are taking in the region, and we think we can work that out .

As t o whether or not we will have that lOC per cent completed by the time, I ~o.'Ould hate to limit the ::-egio:t in that regard by saying we will have it completely solv ed, but I would certainly see it - it is something, I thir~, that you would ~~ve to address hand in hand in that deciding •,o~h ere bounc!aries might be changed , where they need to be changed or expanded or w:1atever 1 I think, you also have to have in the back. of your mind a regional structure that might be put in place and vice versa . MR. STIRLING: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (BUTT} : The hon. member for Bonavista North. MR.

STilU.ING: '!es, I know we have spent a lot of t.ime on this but the minister by this time , I am sure , has rece ived some of those same peofle ti"-~t you have mentionee ·1379 -.

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1741 SD - l :-IR. L. STIRLING: ~1ho are considering regional government. They have come back to u~ in telegrams and letters - do not go away for a minute. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. L. STIRLING: The have come back to us and said, •one, we think we should have a copy of the act, the whole Municipalities Act 1 that we can not make intelligent comment~. They are embarrassed about the fact that they can not give a point of view on many parts of this because they have not seen a copy of the act.

As I understand it, many places have still not received a copy of the act, even to this day have not received it. You mentioned 1 and I do not want to get involved in naming some of these p:;.aces unless I have their permission and I am not sure that the fact that I have a telegram from them gives me permission to release their names 1 ~ut they have expressed essentially two or three concerns and that is why I ask the minister, because I have a feeling and I said before although at least one of my colleagues aid not agree, I have a lot of respect for the minister.

I think he is a good Minister of Municipal Affairs but in this whole attitude, this whole process of dealing with (

a) the elected councils and (

b) the House of Assembly there is, and I do not know whether it is the minister or whether or not it is the government's attitude, but an attitude ~~a~, WP will not have the courtesy, for example, to let councillors send in their comments. Did not send them a copy of the act'2 That sort of thing is tracing through like the attitude towards the House of Assembly.

Of course, this is a good model but I am sure the minister is aware that if he attempts to bring in regional government for the coast of Labrador, it has got to have such very special considerations and very special concerns that he is going to have to bring a bill to the House of Assembly. And the city of St. John's as you indicated- I was not a member of the House, I do not think the present minister was the minister- 'tile city of St. John's and the surrounding areas, when you brough in the regional government dealing with the urban region of St. John's, there were so many specifics that people 4380 --

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1741 SD - 2 MR. L. STIRLING: objected to that we ended up with the kind of situation in which the House of Assembly turned down that bill because there must have been something in it that they did not agree to. Now, I think that the minister should look at this on the same basis as though a Liberal government were in power. would yo~ give the Minister of Municipal Affairs the absolutely complete authority that is in that reqional government bill?

And if you can not answer that honestly, yes, I would be happy to give that to the Liberal government,then you should not be trying to force this ~~rough while it is true you do have a good ainister in power. But I woul.d ask the minister either to imagine any of the members on this side in his post or some of t :-.!! members on the other side dealing with the absolute wide powers in this bill.

The councils do not like the concept of anv minister, either a Liberal minister or a PC minister , having ~~e kind of authority that is set out in this bill ,.. that can take from municipalities · assets, can decide on the responsibilities, to decide what is a regional responsibility, to decide the boundaries, for example, as you have already indicated, and there is nothing that ca~ses more concern amongst municipalities ~~an their boundaries and the minister has already.:had some, I was going to say sad experiences, but certainly some experiences in two municipalities fighting over boundaries.

All this authority is under a regional bill. Now, the minister has made a very sig- nificant change in the concept of this bill and it may give an indication, and my colleague from LaPoile (Mr. S. Neary) touched on i t 7 the first indication of the government, the first attitude of the government was what came out in, I think you called it Bill, 501 the last session of the House, in which the 'attitude was force the thing through. that could not happen.

Then a bill came out that had the = f~ll authority to appoint 1 and I think that the minister used his influence and has made a very good change bQ sort of say, ~~at it 4381. -.

December 10, 1979 Tape .<o. 1741 so - 3 MR. ~. STIRLING: should be done 0::1 an elected l::asis The councils in these areas and the councils throughou~ Newfoundland woulc. like you to go one step further and say that if "4382 -.

December 10, 1979, Tape 1742, Page 1 -- apb MR.

STIRLING: the municipalities can come together themselves 1 if they can make recommendations themselves, if they can take this model bill, and there is nothing wrong with using this as a model bill if you refer it back to the House of Assembly, take this as the model bill and say, 'Okay, we all agree we want this clause and that clause and the other clause and we do not want this and we need some special consideration, and let the minister come back to the House of Assembly with the model bill so that this should be the House where the final decisions on behalf of the people of Newfoundland T because there is a lack of respect for the fact that the people have elected us and sent us here to make the decisions.

At the time that the election took place, they did not know who was going to be the government. There is not a member in this House who got elected as a member of a g.overrunent, he was elected to represent a district. It is a questionof-after the resu~ts come in,you get into the secondary question of who is going to be the government. MR. NEARY: Sure they told us down in Burgee - Bay d'Espoir to elect a government member MR. MORGAN: MR. STIRLING: MR. NEARY: MR. MORGAN: MR. NEARY: will get nothing, you are cut off. Do not be so foolish boy.

Yes, that is in a by-election. - or you will not get any~~ing. (Inaudible) problems. Elect a government member or you MR.

STIRLING: Now, we are into a situation in which - an indication of the kind of lack of respect for the House of Assembly is when members, and there were at least a dozen members on this side of the House,befbre this fisheries conference out in Corner Brook that was going to make the decision that they have now made, the federal government has made, and they indicated they were so surprised, there were at least a dozen members on this side of the House said, 'Are you going to go to the fisheries conference? Are you going to send a big delegation? Are you going 1383

December 10, 1979, Tape 1742, Page 2 -- apb MR. STIRLING: to table what is the government's position?' I think the only one who agreed, the only one on that side of the House who ~aid definitely at that ti~e. •ve~. we have to protect the Northern cod stocks',was the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Morgan). He was the only one at that time who said, 'Yes, we will protect it'. He was the only one at that time . The Premier took the same attitude then, if you will look at Hansa~d, in answering any of the questions.

And the Minister of Fisheries took the same attitude he did about Newfoundland ponies a few minutes ago, a big joke, the Newfoundland cod stocks. MR. MARSHALL: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : On a point of order. The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: I hate to interrupt the hon. member but the fact of the matter is, we are speaking about the municipal bill, which is the bill before the Committee and I do not see that it has any relevance, as interesting as it may be,to the fisheries conference and the Northern cod stocks or, for that matter, ponies. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, To the point of order. The The hon. the government House Leader, Sir, in keeping with past tradition, has raised what he says is a point of order, when in accual fact it is not a point of order. My hon. friend is relating various and sundry debates and discussions and arguments that took place in this House to regional government. My hon. friend is completely in order and the hon. gentleman, he may not like what my hon colleague is saying, but he is in order and I would submit that Your Honour allow my hon. 4384 --

December 10, 1979, Tape 1742, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: colleague to carrJ on with his discussion. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : I would rule that a point of order does exist and that the hon. the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling) is straying from the subject and is being somewhat irrelevant. I would ask the hon. gentleman to confine his remarks to regional government. The han. the member for Bonavista North. MR. STIRLING: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Relating it to regional government, the whole question of why we have to debate this in the House of Assembly is the past record of the attitude of this House, the attitude of the government towards this House about having respect for the House in referring things back to the House for final decision and my references are just like the reference that everytime I get close to the truth, the President of ~~e Council (Mr. Marshall) rises on a point of order.

Because when I asked questions on another item I was told, 'Oh, yes, do not bring that up now, you should have done that before you got elected two or three years ago when another act, the Public Tendering Act did not have special provisions put in for it ~~d how to handle it. So it is all related, Mr. Chai~n, it is related to the whole question of what is this government's attitude about councils. Its attitude about councils is, We are bringing through legislation which wi.ll affect and which they have to deal with. every day and we do not have enough respect for them to send them out a copy of the act.

A~ far as I know, some councils still do not have a copy of the act. The second point is the question, does anyone in this Province trust any •1385 -.

December 10, 1979 Tape 1743 EC - l MR. STIRLING: minister to take the kind of au~~ority t.'lat he has under this act - any minister who has the kind of authority ur.der this act - and use it without having to refer it back to the House of Assembly? Y.r.

Chairman, I intend to get the permission frolll the fifty or sixty councils which have come back and specifically said, 'No, we do not agree that the minister sl1ould have this authority. tie believe t.'le councils should be involved, and the councils, when they agree on a concept of regional government, t..'lat act should go back to the House of Assembly for final authori ~;y. ' MR. MORG&'I: Only sixty out of 100 telegrams? Z•tR. STIRLING: Sixty out of one hund:::ed and fifty. MR. MJRGA..'I: One hundred telegrams and only sixty back? MR. NEARY: You told yours not to answer. You told Bonavista not to answer. MR.

STIRLING: Mr. Chairman, I know I should not ha•re paid a compliment to the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. ~1organ) because as soon as I complimented hi:n, he shoved his foot in h.is mouth quickly. He immediately jumped in and said, 'W:~at difference do sixty municipalities in this Province make? Sixty municipalities in this Provj~ce want to~~ consulted about municipal government. \ihat difference? Sixty, only sixty of them wa.l'lt to be consulted? unly sixty want to have a word. Who pays attention to sixty?

Now, on t.~e other b~d, if ycu have some other ~urneer bigger than sixty, then we would listen, but sixty people sending in telegrams should not be consulted! And I would suggest to the minister, regardless of how you decide to force this tnrough - because I notice from the amendlllents that you do now recognize the city - and we have now changed from a position that told the cities, 'You are not going to be affected by this act,' to now defining the city and including the city in all t.'J.ese clauses. I would like to s\lllllnarize and sum up my feelings on this ques~;ion of regional government.

I think regional government is a good concept. I think regional government would come by natural process, oy municipalities which want to get toget.'ler.t do not agree with

December 10, 1979 Tape 1743 EC - 2 MR. STIRLING: the concept of forcing it through in one act with the authority being given w t.l-je minister.

Whether that was a Liberal minister or a P.C. minister, I •nould still say that t.'le authority and the respect should come back to the House of Assembly and that this is too important a level of government- the municipal level of government ana the regional le••el of government - this is too importa."lt a level of government to attempt to put through in one bill because we know that it cannot apply to all places in Newfoundland, there are special situations and t.'le place for that to be dealt with is in t.'le House of Assembly. MR. CEAIRMAL~: (Butt) Affairs and Housing. MR. N. WDiDSOR: Thank you, :-tr.

C"l.airman. The han. the !ti,nister of Municipal I would just like to respond briefly to the ccmments of the hon. gentleman from Bonavista North (Hr. Stirli."lg). First of all, he collllllented that the House turned down Bill No. SO. I would like to correct that. Bill No. SO was hoisted for six months and was never brought back to the House of Assembly, but it was not turned down, and that is a significant difference.

I would refer also - the hon. gentleman has given me an excellent opportunity to really take a swipe at him.· He asked me whether or not I would recommend that this legislation be applicable to,some day in the future, a Liberal minister. I could have all kinds of interesting comments as a result of the opening he left me there.

I choose not to and si~~PlY say, Yes, l1r.Cha.irman, I submit to you that first of all, it is not the minister who nas the authority, it rests with the government of the Province, duly elected by all of tile people of the Province, therefore, hopefully, representing all of the people cf the Province. And I would also submit very clearly, Mr. Chairman, that I would have no nesitation in giving t.'lat aut.'lority to any government, because I would hope that any government, whether it be P.C., Liberal, or anything else, would have the same best interests of the municipalities at heart as we do here today.

SOME HON • MEHBERS : Hear, hear!

Oeceriler 10, 1979 Tape 1743 EC - 3 MR. N. WINDSOR: The bon. gen~leman askec, What is government ' s attitudes about council? I t.lti.nk the bill speaks for icsel!, .ltr. Chairman, a."ld that the bill gives all kinds of authorities to council. In face, many people have criticized the bill t.o the point :hat it: perhaps gi ves l:.~em t.oo 1!11.1Ch auconomy, that indeed, t."'e Province maybe does not have enough control over this and t."'at we are maybe tak.iztg our lives in our ha:t ds there. Sut I would say to you, !-lr.

Chai=an, t.'lat we do have great respe= for councils and we are convinced that l:."le'f • indeed, can o.,erate under chis particular piece o! 1egl.s l ation in t he best interests of the people they represent. 'the hon. c;-ent.leman refe=ecl t.o coasr.al Labrador and the type of regional council that might be applicable there. I W'Oul~ say to you that I t.'lil'.:C it is a long, lon9 ways away befo r e ='! formalized structure of regional government is applied to coastal Lal:>raco::. I would say t.o you ·1 388 ·-

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1744 ow - 1 MR. N. WINDSOR: that the joint community councils of Labrador are now, in effect, filling a void there and a need, the need that Labrador may indeed have for some time in that there is discussion on a regional basis and they have broadened, that they are far outside what would normally be considered the responsibilities of a regional council, and they are talking about all forms of problems outside of even municipal problems. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Baird) MR. W. MARSHALL: Shall Clauses 291 to 300 carry? Mr. Chairman, just before it does there is minor amendment to

section 299 adding the word 'cities' immediately before the word 'towns' so that

section 299 will now read, "In an order made establishing a region or annexing an area to a region the Lieutenant­ Governor in Council may provide for the adjustment of assets and liabilities betwe .en the cities, towns, conununities and regions affected thereby". On IIIDtion, amendment carried. On motion, Clauses 291 to 300 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clauses 301 to 310 carry? MR. W. MARSHALL: There is another amendment here in sections 302 and 305 and 306. There are extensive amendments here. I think the hen. gentlemen have been given them. They have them, really.

What it does, it puts the word 'cities' again, inserts the word 'cities' before the word 'towns in those sections. So if the committee will permit, rather than read them I propose the amendments as filed. On motion, amendments carried. On motion, Clauses 301 to 310 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clauses 311 to 320 carry? MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, there is an amendment here as well. Again, I do not think it is a matter of~~~~~ import to 313(1), 313(2) and 316, the words, 'From elective councils the cities and municipalities in the regions', be inserted immediately before the word 'appointed' • AN HON.

MEMBER: That is an Opposition amendment. MR. W. MARSHALL: There are times when the Opposition does come in with wise amendments and if this is, in fact, an Opposition amendment we wholeheartedly endorse it, we are wise. 1389

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1744 DW-2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. W. MARSHALL: I do not think, Mr. Chairman - here again I think that these amendments have been before the members of the Committee and I propose them as they are placed. on motian, amendments carried. On motion, Clauses 321 to 340 carried MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clauses 341 to 350 carry? MR. t~. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, again there is an amendment that the words 'At the discretion of the council' they are added immediately before the words 'Its committees' in

section 342. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. W. MARSHALL: On motion, amendment carried. On motion, Clauses 341 to 360 carried. Shall Clauses 361 to 370 carry? There are a few amendments here, Mr . Chairman, in 362 (2) and 370. Again, they pertain - 370 adds ~he word 'city' before town. And the other word, the word 'proof' is struck out and the words, 'providing for the crediting on a reciprocal basis' is substituted therefor• MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. W. MARSHALL:

section 375 and 379. on motion amendment carried. On motion, Clauses 361 to 370 carried. Shall Clauses 371 to 380 carry? Mr. Chairman, there are amendments to The word 'city' before the word 'town' and in place of the words 'one month' in

section 379 substitute the words 'five months' and the minister has another one, have you? MR. WINDSOR: MR. W. MAP.SHALL: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. W. MARSHALL: No. No, okay that is fine. On motion, amendment carried. On motion, Clauses 371 to 390 carried. Shall Clauses 391 to 400 carry? In Clauses 391 to 400, Mr. Chairman, again we have an amendment for

section 394 which is inserted at the beginning of this

section the words, 'subject to

section 413 for the reasons given'. · <1390

December 10, 1979 MR. W. MARSHALL: Tape No. 1744 OW-3 on motion, amendment carried. On motion, Clauses 391 to 400 carried. Shall Clauses 401 to 410 carry? Again, Mr. ChAirman, an ame.nC.menc to

section 407 {~). That is amended by adding the \oo'Ords 'city or' immediately be£ore the •<'lOrd 'liiWlicipality'. MR. CI:!AIJ:OO\.~ : MR. W. MA.'!SRALL: On motion , amendment carried . On motion, Clauses 401 to 410 carried. Shall Clauses 411 to 420 carry? Mr. Chairman, amendments here to Cla uses 413 (a), 413 (b), 414 and 414 (l)as set forth in the pages that have been set forth. If the hon . members wish me to read them;

section 4391

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1745 GH-1 MR. MARSHALL: 413(

a) the word, 'vice-chairman', in paragraph (

a) be struck out and the words, 'deputy chairman', be substituted, and the word, 'unanimous', be struck out and the word, 'two-thirds', substituted. In 413(

b) the word, 'vice-president', in paragraph (

b) be struck out and the words, 'deputy chairman' be substituted, and in 414(1) the word. 'vice-chairman', in paragraph (

a) is struck out and the words, 'deputy chairman', are substituted. carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: (Baird) MR. THOMS: On motion, amendment carried. On motion, Clauses 411 through to 420, Shall Clauses 421 through to 430 carry? The hon. member from Grand Bank. I think it is about time we came to a little bit of - less speed here, Mr. Chairman. I would like to move an amendment. MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. THOMS: I recognize anybody as soon as they stand. The member from Grand Bank. I would like t"o move an amendment to Clause 430, and to be specific it is Clause 430, ' subclause l(d), I would like to amend it by inserting the words, 'or lower' after the word, 'same', in subparagraph (

d) and immediately before 'unit', so that it would now read "(

d) where public work awarded by public tender is extended at the same or lower unit prices so long as the extension is not more than SO per cent of the value of the initial contract". Mr. Chairman, I brought this matter up earlier in the debate on this act and, as a matter of fact, I spoke privately with the minister on it, and I was told - I do not think I am letting any confidences or anything out at the moment - I was told that they were in agreement with me that this particular

section should be so amended, but.that the Public Tendering Act had wording exactly like this and they wanted the Municipal Act to have the same wording. I cannot accept this as a reasonable, logical reason for putting this in this particular act. We saw, before the Public Accounts Committee, the present Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. Morgan), who had been Minister of Public Works, say that the Tendering Act prevented any negotiation of the unit ·.

December 10 , 1979 Tape No. 174 5 GH- 2 MR. T.I:IOMS: p;rice as stipulated in the earlier contract and, therefore, prevented a further saving of taxpayers' dol;tars. Somewhere in his statement before the Public Accounts COmmittee ):le said that the government could have saved thousands of dollar .s if they could have. awarded an extension to a contract but did not )lave to comply with the letter of the law as far as the .Public Tendering Act is concerned. Now, I really cannot see any rational.e l;lehind the reasoning of 'the minister for insisting that this particular

section go in complet'i!l.Y unedited from the original ·version in the Public Tendering Act. If· we just inserted those two word:; t;hat I have used, then Councils who want to go under the exceptions . there of awarding, where it. ill an e~sion to an already awarded contract, they then can go back and negotiate for the further work at a lower unit price tna.n was in the origina;t contract. Now, the goverxmient - at least one minister of the goveriU~~ent - h.as interpreted the Public Tendering Act to mean that that cannot Pe done. The minister said that the pub~ic Tendering Act is going to be reviewed, and this will be . 4393

December 10, 1979 Tape 1746 PK - 1 Mr. Thoms: probably one of the things that will be changed, that will be amended. But we do not know how long this review of the Public Tendering Act is going to carry on. We do know that from the time this Act comes into effect the municipal councils will have to abide by

Section 430 and 1 therefore 1 will not be able to negotiate extensions to contracts at a lower unit price than was in the original contract and, therefore, it may very well mean that they will have to pay more for the extension when they could go back and negotiate a lower price. Again, Mr. Chairman, you know, it is a reasonable request for an amendment, tf I get assurances that the Public Tendering Act -f~ going to be amended immediately and the Municipal Act would then be amended accordingly, But we have a flaw, I apologize, Mr.

President of the Council, but we do have a flaw in the Public Tendering Act, and we are now passing this flaw along into this Act. And it does not make sense just to have the public tendering sections here to correspond to the Public Tendering Act, a good reason. to me .that is not be i'JI!!'ended just by the And I am just asking that this particular

section i.nsertion of two words, and then if a council wants to award an extension to a contract they can do so. But as I said befor~ if the Public Tendering Act were to be amended immediately the Public Tendering Act may not be amended until a year down the road. it is a very-reasonable amendment, and it is one that I would like to see accede to. MR. CHAIRMAN (BAIRD) : The hen. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Chairman, let me first of all concur' witi'l what the hon. gentleman said ,ab~u~ discussions we did have several days ago.

I did indicate to him that I did in principle agree with him and I do quite frankly, as an individual. I cannot speak on behalf of government in this particular issue, because it is not one which comes under the ambit of my responsibilities or authorities. But I do personally agree that there is,indeed 1certainly a great deal ·1394 ·.

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1746 IB-2 MR. WINDSOR: of justification in what he says. I am,as he also indicated 1 a little hesitant to propose an amendment here which would bring this act different than the PUblic Tendering Act now in force as it relates to the provincial government. Also, with certain judicial proceedings underway relating to the Public Tender Act,I am not sure if it might not be wise for us to consider this particular issue,hopefully,after some Of those issues are out of the way.

If I could 1 and if the hon. gentlemen would accept this,give him an assurance that I certainly will take it under advisement, ~here wi11 be very, very few if any public tenders awarded by municipalities over the next three months and that in the Winter session we could 1 indeed 1 then 1 introduce an amendment 1 hopefully 1 in line with any amendments that may be proposed to the Public Tender Act and that in the interim I will have discussions with the hon. gentleman and keep him informed of what we are proposing , if that is satisfactory. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird) : The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, first of all let me point out to the bon. Minister of Municipal Affairs that he cannot wear two hats. He cannot stand in this Ho•~se or outside of this House - he can do it but morally it is wrong to do it - he ca.nnot say inside of this House or outside of the House that individually, personally I agree but I cannot speak for the government. Mr. Chairman - MR. WINDSOR: MR.

NEARY: I did not say government did not agree. (inaudible) The bon. gentleman, as I understand what he said-and Hansard will prove, I think, that I am right - he said, I can confirm that I had discussions with the hon. member and I am very sympathetic towards this r,'!1<>nnment and I agree with it individually, on a personal basi~ but I cannot speak . 4395 • .

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1747 SD - l MR. S. NEARY: for the government. Mr. Chairman, who speaks for government? Who in this building speaks for government if the hon. gentleman does not? The bon. gentleman can not wear two bats. He can not say on the one hand, personally, 1 agree with something and then on the other hand say, you know, as 01. minister I do not speak for the government. You can not do that, it is just not done. Cbly anignoramus would make a statement like that, a political ignoramus, now, I am talking about.

And, therefore, the hon. gentleman is speaking for the government whether he likes it or not. And now is the time to talk about amendments to this bill, not when it is passed. If the hon. gentleman feels so strongly about it, why does he not agree with the amendment my hen. friend has made? It is a very simple amendment, all it does is say, •wnere a public work awarded by public tender is extended at the same or - HR.D. JAMIESON: Lower. MR. S. NEARY: - lower unit price. AN' liON. MEMBER: You are going to vote for this are you not? MR. S. NEARY: No, we do not expect the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr. J.

Morgan) to vote for it, we know how he feels about the Public Tendering Act. MR. MORGAN: It was my suggestion at the Public Accounts meeting. MR. s. NEARY: Wnat was that again? MR. L. THOMS: It was hiS suggestion at the ?ublic Accounts meeting • He is the one I was quoting. MR. CHAIRL'iAN·: (Mr. Baird) Order, please!You were speak,ing on .:he amendment? MR. S • NBARY : Yes, Sir. I was just t:ak':ng a little legal advice from my colleague here. Mr. Chairman, the Public Tendering Act is so full of holes that you could line up a hundred tandem trucks, fifty bulldozers - MR. D. JAMIESON: Those tractor trailers. '1396

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1747 SD - 2 MR. S. NEARY: - 125 tractor trailers, twenty-five anny tanks and drive them all through the Public Tendering Act. That is how big the holes are in the Public Tendering Act. A."ld the government are now going to pass that act that has no teeth, t:h.att toothless act onto the municipalities under this bill. Mr. Chairman, if the sovernment and especially the President of the Council (Mr. w.

Marshall), the Government House Leader, are sincere in saying that they are going to amend the Public Tendering Act1 then let us trot out the amendment3 to the Public Tendering Act, let us not create a situation where whe.'l the governmer.t does amend the Public Tendering Act they are going to have to amend a dozen other acts. ~his act will have to be amended again)' Why waste the time of the Legislative draftsman? Why pay Legislative draftsmen $60 and SBO an hour of taxpayers'money? Why waste their time and then have to bring in amendments to this act? Why not do it now?

Why do we have to wait until the amendments are broughtin for the Public Tendering Act? Why can we not put that little- two words in this act? Why do we have to wait1Why does not the hon. gentleman - MR. W. MARSHALL: (Inaudible) some reason (inaudible) MR. S. NEARY: Some reason. Oh, well, I will sit down if the hen. gentleman is going to move an amendment. AN HON. ME..'IBER: Sit down. MR. MARSHALL: No, speak on the amendments. MR. S. NEARY: ~o, sir, the hon. gentleman will have his chance to speak on the amendment.

The hon. gentleman who claims to be the godfath~* of the Public Tendering Act in this Province, who is now passing /m a Public Tendering Act to the municipal council that has ,•o teeth, that could become the subject of political interference if ministers wanted to use the big stick with municipal councils. We already saw an example in this Province where the Minister of Lands and Forests blatantly violated the Public Tendering Act and all he had to do was to say, all the minister said was that I did it with the blessing - ,. MR. J. MORGAN: Do not fool yourself.

December 10, 1979 Tape No. 1747 so - 3 MR. S. NEARY: - of ~~. Moores and I did it with the blessing of my colleagues in the Cabinet. Now, what will happen, Mr. Chairman, when it is discovered six monthsea year or so from now, that some mun.icipal.ity did the same thing? could they not say, well, we did it but the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. N. Wincsor) knew about it, the government knew about it so, therefore, ev~ything is okay? It is okay to break the law as long as somebody knows about it. MR. CARTER: Is that the way (inaudible) 4398

December 10, 1979 Tape 1748 HB - l HR. NE<"\RY: ~lr. Ol.ai=an, I wish the weather would get fine so the hen. gentleman would go back to his savory patch. HR. JAMIESON: Go out ~,d stuff a few turkeys • • MR. NEARY: Yes 1 well, this is the time of year when he should be out stuffing a few turkeys. Mr. Chairman, the matter of public tendering is a very serious matte~, very serious indeed. If I had my way there would be no extensions of contracts, no extensions. HR. J. CAR!'ER: No Public Tender at all (inaud.ilile::i. !1R. NEARY: Oh, is that so? That is what ~~e hen. gentleman thinks.

The hon. gentleman is not the only one in ~~is House. He does not have a .monopoly on purity you know. There are ct:'ler people who feel that things should be done right and proper and above- board just as muc.'l as the hon. gentlelt'.an. But Hr. Chai==nan, I am appealL"'lg to hen. members on the government ben;::!'les to go along with this amenc:iment if they are since~e in trying to reform the public tendering procedures in this Province. I doubt very much if we will hook one. I doubt if we will get one.

I know we will not get the Minister of Forestry and Agricultur -:;!1 I can forecas·t.that, I will predict it for you right now, because the hon. gentleman is the expert at getting around the Public Tendering Act. MR. caAIRHA.": (i1r. Baird) Order, please. I would like to rell'ind the hen. gentleman for LaPoile that we are discussiug ~~e alt'en~~nt. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, we are discussing an amendment to the public tendering procedure of this bill. And we were tolc:L by the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Windsor) that they cannot accept the amendment even though the ~lini.ster says he personally agrees with it.

He says that he is very sympathetic, but he cannot speak for the government. Well, who can speak for the government? My hon. friend who was a minister in the government of canada, did the hen. gentleman ever try wearing two hats, and say one minute I am not speaking for dJ.e government and the next minute I am speaking for the government'? The only way you can do that is resign. The hon. gentleman cannot say, cannot take t:•e feeble position that he agrees wi~~ it persoually but he cannot speak for ·. · 1399

December 10, 1979 Tape 1748 ME - 2 MR. tlEA..'<.Y : government. Well who can? Would somebody over there who can speak for the goverrurent get up and tell us what is going to be done.about this loophole in t.i.e Public Tendering Act? And will somebody tell us why they cannot vote for my hon. friend • s amendment that is so reasonable, that seems to be so fair;:' Sit down and give somebody else a c.'lance. MR. NEARY: I will sit do,.n.!f the hon. gentle:::~an wants the floor .h ·:! can have it. Does the hen. gentleman want to get up to speak? Mr.

Chairman, I would hope that members on both sides of the House would support this simple, ~ut important, amendir.ent~ Just put in two words. You know, Mr. Chairman, I have to say this about this bill ar.d about the bill that the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge)was so anxious to ram through this House, I do not believe that the government has accepted one amendment from the Opposition. I do not believe they have accepted one.

We saw a couple of amendments this afternoon that were the result of a debate that took place in this House a year ago, but I do not believe that the government has accepted one amendment made by the opposition, and this is the crowd that get up to tell us they brought democracy back to Newfoundlan~. The democracy t.'ley are talking abOut is -one-sided. If it coJres from t.'lis side then it is partisan politics. So I believe, Mr. Chairman, it is time now t:nat the government showed a little common sense ane showed their sincerity by accepting this amendment.

At least we will be able to say tilat in these two bills that are going to affect the daily lives of people in this Province, that are an intrusion iDto people's privacy and into their personal lives, that at least the government will be able to say well 1 we accepted one amendment from the Opposition, we did not turn them all down. We do not have to wait until next year to amend this bill.. God only knows, Mr. Chairman, we may never see amendments to the Public Tendering Act, never. I am sure that there will be a bitter struggle in ·14~0 ·.

December l9, 1979 Tape 1748 M3 - 3 Cab:Lnet by ministers who are experts in qettinq around the Public Tendering Act saymg no, no, do not do I' •,•' · ,_. that, give lis a little elbow room, give us a little leeway, do not ~d the Public '!rendering Act. And we will ne:ver win, we will never see this act amended. AN . HON • MEMBER: (Inau~le) friends. MR • . NEAR!: That is right. They may have teo many friend$ they want tQ look after, and so they have got to leave a few loopholes theJ:e so that . 4401.

Decerrber 10, 1979 !1P.. S. NE.l'.RY: Tendering Act Tape No.17~9 PA - 1 people who wa.'1t to violate the P•~lic can do so by merely saying, " 'ilell, I broke the t>ubli::: Tendering Act but the tr . .i,nis-t;!'lr gr .the,, Premier or the Cabinet kne~r all about it." 1\N HO!l. ME:-ffiEP.: liear, hear! !ffi. CP.AIRI"AN: The Hon. the President of the Council. Just a few words,~. Chai~an. First of all 1 i~ is the Minister of Municipal Affairs whe speaks for ~~e government.

All I am doing is just endorsing what ~~e Minister of l!.unicipal Affairs has said with respect to the bill a:·:d .,,hat the ministe::­ has said is that - you know, the su.ggestion cotr.ing from the hon. l:'el"l:· ~~ for Grand Bank ( Nr. L. Thoms) has not been taken lightly, it has been taken very seriously, and it ',;ill be considered, and very serious!~· consicer~d, in relation to ot.~er recormrendations that may co!T>e with res:,: .ect to the change in the overall tendering position of the gcverr~ent, the Public Tendering Act.

Now, to put in an amendment in cor.:mittee of this nature 1 I would . suggest to t.":e hen. merr~er, could be some,vhi!.t cangerous because if you are going to provide that there can be an extension at less than t.l)e unit price 1 you can be talking about fairly big dollars when you are talking about an extension.

It says here an extension is defined up to fifty percent of the airount o:f: the contract, so if ;-;e are going to do t.~at,and certainly it is going to be considered very carefully, you are also going to have to consider regulations probably extenlling the act itself to provice that extensions,11•hen they arise, must occur immediately after the contract, they cannot oc~r a year later, for ir.stance, when the ur.it price perhaps ~ay fall dramatically and somebody can be given just a few dollars under the Q'1it price

whereas it has fallen substantially more and it is l::.etter 1 mere propitious ,to call public tenders again for the full contract price. So what ve co not \>:ish to co, we co not wish to create 2. loophole throug~ which a huge ten ton truck can drive. So ~'hat the ~inister is saying is that - and this shows the value of the committee; the suggestion has been made by t.~e hon. member 1 the suggestion has not been taken lightly, \>te ~rill not only take it- ar.d it i.s not just t.'l.e hor.. member's sugqestian, al:;o t..."l.e hon. Minister of Lands a..,_c Forest (J .. Horgan) r'lac,e t.~is

DeGerr~er 10.1979 Tape No. 174<:' PJI. - 2 ~1P.. vJ. r,<AP.SPALL : in ~is impassioned defence of t~e Putlic Tancering Act do~m =efore the Public Accounts Co~mittee,and o~~ers. So, you know ,I mean nothing, as you say 1 as we k.>iow, nothing is ~Titten in stone. We will be taking a look at the tendering procecures and ~~e Tendering ~ct 1 and this act and the tendering aspects of ~~is act and we can guarantee this cot!'.rnittee that any a."l'.endments ~'"!at ~Till be brought in <vill be 2I"!enc!l'ents to strengthen the act itself rather than any way to weaken it.

So we would not want to make this a~cndment right no~· here in corr.mi ttee wi thcut seriously •-'eighing and ccnsic' .ering it as to h~N a loophole could occur, for instance ,in the instance of the unit price cropping drall'atically and the contracting te.Jren up a year later and tTen ~~at itself beins usee' to circur.vent the provisions of public tendering. so,ycu know,that is the position the gove~ent is tc}~ing, a.nc' I think it is a sensible one t.~at the minister is taking • • .-ith rE<spect to it.

Now,you know,members can get up all day long and debate "-'i~'l it ' and debate on it and say it should be done because of~. P, c, D, E,F and G. We say we will take it into consideration. And the fact chat the -a!l'.endment may or ll'ay not be def"eated .• but _just say the amen·dment is defeated,t~at does no~ ~ean that we are not taking the words of the hon. !!'e:mher seriously and that his contribution to the coinrli ttee on the ~ill and on t.~is particular

section ~as not been of great value. On t~e amendment the hon,'the Leader of the Opposition. Yes 1 Sir 0 The hen. ~'1e President of the Privy Council h