Manitoba Hansard — 21 February 1974 (Sitting 26, 30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-26

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Thursday, February 21, 1974 SUPPLY- NORTHERN AFFAIRS 667 MR , CHAIRMAN: Resolution 9i)(c)(4) -- pass? Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4, 715, 800 for Northern Affairs. Resolution -- oh, I beg your pardon. I' m sorry I missed

section (d), There's a line here, I thought I was finished. Resolution 99(d)(1) -- pass? The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR . BILTON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would indicate what Training Services are about and what goes on, please. MR , CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR , McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, the Training Services

section of the Local Government Services provides a very specific service to the community councils. I think as the Member from Swan River realizes, the communities are pretty new at the council business and the council responsibility and management function and therefore we feel that some extra effort is needed to assist them in specific areas of training so that they can be of assistance to the communities.

That kind of training they provide is the specific type for a newly elected council what are your roles as council, how does it operate - a very specific kind; for example, bookkeeper training - how does a bookkeeper operate in the Community Council situation. They are getting into some courses and will be in the upcoming year in the nature of how small business management, kinds of training to assist some people in communities who wish to get into the small business field but don't have that kind of experience or background. Mr.

Chairman, some of the specific courses that were offered during the last year, during this year we're in now, was a financial management and planning- four courses were provided of this nature, one in each region involving every council and committee member; a three day course focusing on improving attitudes, understanding and skills in financial management for local government and the associated related problems.

Also there was two on�day seminars for individual councils and committees. two days were spent creating awar� ness of the function responsibilities of financial planning, Financial planning and management is also one of the areas we'll be doing considerable amount of work on in the upcoming year. Four courses were offered to 85 people and a course in New Councillor Training- how to function as a councillor, what is your role, what is your duty in that job. Another course that was offered for 33 persons for a thre�day course in council clerk training.

That is some of the councils, a few of them now are able to have a full time clerl:, others have part- time people acting as their clerks, and this was a course in the training of those people. The other course that we've been doing just previous to the Christmas season was a course in election officials training so that the people in the community could run the council elections in their own community and know how to - training for the returning officer and the clerk, etc. , to run the local elections in the Community Councils.

Another course that was offered was 33 workshops involving 800 people in local govern ment skills; how the local government could or should operate. As I mentioned there was the course ••• MR.

BILTON: I appreciate the Minister's comments and I know exactly what he's attempting to do, but what I was looking for was that we spent some $256,000 last year on the program and I'm sure that the same kind of money was spent the year before, Does he see any reduction in this direction in general instruction as to how these good people will handle their own affairs and so on, or is it going to be perpetuated for time immemorial? MR , McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, some of this kind of work was done before but this past year was the first year that there was really a separate group of people performing the function, and I would see in the immediate future, in the next couple of years, a bigger demand for this service. Now after the n��xt couple of years I would assume, hopefully, then there will be a decline in the need for this kind of service, but for the next couple of years I would assume, hopefully, then there will be a decline in the need for this kind of service, but for the next couple of years I would see it need to be expanded rather than ..• MR.

BILTON: I'm satisfied, Mr. Chairman, if the Honourable Minister sees his way clear to see to it that this is reduced. It's about time they were learning how to run their affairs.

668 February 21, 1974 SUPPLY- NORTHERN AFFAIRS MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution (d)( 1) -- pass? (2) -- pass? The resolution as I moved it previously -- passed. Resolution 100 (a)--p ass? (b) -- pass? (c) ••• The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: I think for the edification of all members present probably the Honourable Minister would give us some idea as to what this Manpower program is all about. Just as briefly as possible, just the highlights if you please. MR . McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, since this is really the first time that the House has had a chance to look at this program I would like to not be really brief but to take a few moments to explain the program. The basic goal of course and purpose of the Manpower Corps is to put northern people into the jobs that are coming available in Northern Manitoba.

The Member for Swan River is prob ably one of those who realizes that there are a large number of jobs available in Northern Manitoba but for some reason there has been a difficulty making connection between the people in the remote communities, people of Indian ancestry, into those jobs. So it was our feeling that the agency, you know there is a federal agency responsible for Manpower but they were unable to cope with that kind of special situation.

They might be effective in larger centres or more urban centres but for some reason they weren't able to cope with the kind of situation we encountered in remote communities in Northern Manitoba. Therefore the Provincial Govern ment entered into a program to try and assist people to get those kind of jobs that are available to them. I think the Member for Swan River will recall from the Northern Task Force days and the report of the Northern Task Force that we recommended at that time that this be one part of assisting people in remote communities as a Manpower kind of placement.

Although by itself it may not be that effective, but in fact with some local industry and local employment on reserves so people get the experience, sort of the work ethic that would be expected if they went into Leaf Rapids or Thompson or The Pas. and some assistance to get into that community to establish themselves in a new community and take advantage of the jobs in the more urban centres of Northern Manitoba that they would in fact be able to make a go of it in these more urban centres.

One of the programs in the program this year was sort of divided into regions in Northern Manitoba was the Tawow project which began in August 172. The Premier held a meeting with representatives of the mining companies in Northern Manitoba. They expressed an interest in assisting more people from remote communities to get into their industry and Sherritt Gordon Mines was the first one to enter into a formal agreement with the Province of Manitoba so that in fact they could assist people to relocate; so this is a joint project of the Provincial Govern ment and Sherritt Gordon Mines. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if I could interrupt the honourable gentleman at this time.

The thing that concerns me, and I appreciate the efforts that are being made, but we're talking in terms of close to a million dollars going into this program, and it has been brought to my attention that insofar as Thompson is concerned--a nd I know about the past, about trying to get the people into the mines, the native people and all this sort of thing and the effort that has been made-- but I recall a conversation I had with an individual, someone in authority, where a year ago or eighteen months ago, some 150 people were interested under the program that the Minister is talking about, were brought into International Nickel and I under stand that as of now there's about six of them left.

I fully appreciate that insofar as the native person is concerned it is pretty hard for them to accept the ways of life and the general operation in mining work and so on, but I'm wondering, Mr.

Chairman, if the Minister feels confident that this program and this money that's being spent in order to give these people jobs of sub stance, does he feel confident that it's going to be successful in the end, in spite of some of the- l'm not telling him anything new, I feel sure that he know:::.--b ut are you throwing good money after bad in attempting to make miners out of the Indian population or the Metis population of northern Manitoba. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Northern Affairs. MR . McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, I think that if I explain some of the programs and there are some statistics in terms of those programs, and I think that I'll continue without interruption and finish explaining the Northern Manpower Corps and the function, and I think that members opposite then will understand pretty well what we are trying to do and be able to judge, you know,

February 21, 1974 669 SUPPLY- NORTHERN AFFAIRS, (MR. McBRYD E cont'd) . the problems \'le are having, but be able to see that it's certainly a necessary and worthwhile program. For example, the member from Swan River mentioned the turnover in mines in Northern Manitoba. When we entered into agreement with Sherritt Gordon Mines and the responsibility for the administration of this project came under the Department of Northern Affairs, officials of the department were asking me what were the expectations.

I said to them that I would consider it successful if a quarter of the people remained employed in that particular project and that if we expected too much more than that we were probably setting our goals a little bit too high. Mr. Chairman I will explain the Tawow project but as the member said, it's a pretty complicated subject and you have to do a number of different things and this is just one of the things that is being done under the Northern Manpower Corps. So this Tawow project at Leaf Rapids with Sherritt Gordon Mines began in August 1972.

It continued at a reduced recruitment rate owing to an acute shortage of suitable family housing at Leaf Rapids. Despite the diffi culties with housing continued interest in the project is indicated by the fact that some 52 families applied for relocation during the year. At present some 26 families remain at Leaf Rapids showing a retention rate of 50 percent higher than the company reports for their normal turnover factor.

In addition, 20 other families have been assisted with their adjustment to the community as they take jobs in local construction and service industry in the community, many of which will become a stepping stone to more permanent employment in town. With the addition of three vocational counsellors to the unit staff and the staffing of the job information contracts for communities and bands an expanded employment service and place ment service was instituted and involved extensive contact with some 120 individuals resulting in referrals to and placement of a large number of northerners.

The other major activity in that area under the Northern Manpower Corps has been assistance with the development and construction of South Indian Lake townsite project, and the Northern Manpower Corps used this opportunity to train and employ between 26 and 30 local residents. Productivity included organization and operation of a construction camp, the con struction of 10 remote housing units, the construction of an airport terminal building and the training and employment of heavy equipment operators.

At Pukatawagan the Northern Man power Corps assisted the band to initiate and carry out a training program for 11 sawmill workers. At Brochet the Northern Manpower Corps contracted with the air division to con struct an equipment building and had the opportunity to involve six local residents in a training and employment orientation to carpentry. Mr. Chairman, I would assume, and I would really like to get on to the record and get to the understanding of members opposite as well as others in Manitoba the kind of things that Northern Manpower Corps has been involved in.

And I don't think it falls in the category as the Member for Portage la Prairie would say, of anyone being patted on the back. Because, Mr. Chairman, there are probiems with these programs; they do not always run smoothy but I think that they are at least beginning to be more successful than some of the other efforts that have been made in the past to assist people into this kind of employment, And I think that it's important for members to understand the various types of ways that opportunities are being taken advantage of. So, Mr. Chairman, another period that we have used is Monago Contractors.

Monago Contractors is a Crown corporation under Bill 17 and it is a company that takes on contracts, has taken on contracts with Manitoba Hydro at Jenpeg and has now had the contract with Manitoba Hydro at SoUth Bay and the purpose of this is really an on-the-job training program through a Crown corporation. So Monago takes on the contracts, puts in bids, if their bid is accepted they train people into the job that is going on. The working relationship with Monago contractors and other contractors has been quite good.

That is a contractor will come to the Monago camp and say I need two cat operators for this kind of job. He might come back the next day and say one of them is good at this kind of job but the other is weak in that particular area, he's not quite up to what we need at this time. Monago then take that person back and train him in the area he's weak in to make sure that he goes into that job. So this helps •.• MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. BILTON: Mr.

Chairman .•• the Minister that this is the first time in my exper ience with the Estimates, that when the Estimates are placed before us the facts are here, but

670 February 21, 1974 SUPP LY - NOR THERN AFFAIRS (MR. BILTON cont'd) ..•• the Minister on several occasions, and he's just done it a moment ago, has said that if money is allocated or the Estimates are set up for money to be allocated to "t his particular project", as he said this afternoon, if it's for four miles of road and they want the balance of the money to be used for something else, never, never as long as I have sat in this House have we had a Minister of the Crown make a statement such as that.

These Estimates, Sir, as we are asking you for explanations are figures that are laid down for one particular project, not to be moved to something else because of the change of mind. And I know the people that the honourable gentleman has to deal with, they're wonderful people all of them and they don't quite understand, and I realize the problems that the Minister has.

But don't get up in the House here and tell us when you're talking about a million dollars that we're going to move this one way or the other depending on the opinions of the local people, It's either got to be one thing, Sir, or the other or how are we going to deal with these Estimates and ask you legitimate questions and expect to get legitimate answers when you1re in the position at the moment to say that this is the way it's going to be but we may change it over to this over here, which we may not approve in the Opposition, and we are entitled to that opinion of not approving.

This is a lot of money we're dealing with, Sir. And I say that in due consideration to yourself and I know what you're attempting to do, Sir, but it's not good enough to saythat you can move this sum or that sum to this or the other project over which we have no control You've either got to tell us this is the way the money's going to be spent or it's not going to be spent, and I would ask you to comply with that if you wouldn't mind. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, the comments of the Member for Swan River are in reply to my comments this afternoon in relation to the Shared Community Projects where we're ask ing this Legislature for a certain amount of dollars to share with the communities in their local government and their financing of very local services. What we're talking about this evening, Mr. Chairman, is the Northern Manpower Corps which operates in the very normal fashion of strict and fixed estimates although, Mr.

Chairman, even then when you're involved in training you'll switch from one training project to another if that appears to be the need of that particular time. But the amount available is only a certain amount for training purposes. I was pointing out, Mr. Chairman, that the Monago Contractors Limited had an initial contract of 4,200 acres in Jenpeg operating site early in 1974, finished up that contract and now is in the South Bay area. Mr. Chairman, this particular contract also involves training with other departments.

The initial phases would involve some training with Keewatin Com munity College, some training in conjunction with Canada Manpower, that is on-the-job cat operators to be trained. Mr.

Chairman, I think it's fair to point out to members opposite that one of the real needs in Northern Manitoba in terms of employment is in the area of heavy equipment operators, is in the area of drillers and in the area of heavy equipment- heavy truck drivers and heavy equipment operators and so Monago Contractors, a Crown corporation, is one of the instruments that is being used to get people into that particular field or into that particular activity. About 200 northerners will be involved in the upcoming year in that parti cular program.

The Thompson unit under which the Monago agreement comes has also been involved in supplying councillors to outlying areas in Northern Manitoba, and some 150 individuals and families are currently being assisted for service, while some 300 persons have been placed in employment in the region in the past 10 months. Another part of that program. similar to the Leaf Rapids' program but not as intensive at this moment is an agreement with International Nickel at Thompson to assist people to gain employment at that particular location.

Besides those major projects, the three that I mentioned, the Thompson unit has also been involved in some small projects and that would be a greenskeeper's training program at Thompson; a driving training instruction program and training assistance to a small sawmill operation at Pikwitonei, in the last about nine people have been trained in those specific projects.

One of the areas that we're going to have to expand even if we can't get assistance from Canada Manpower, is the area of driver training, because many of the people in Northern Manitoba have been driving Bombardiers, have driven tractors, have driven machines in their own communities but don't have licenses; but they are not eligible for a lot of the jobs unless they can produce a driver's license when they apply. So we've been negotiating with Canada

February 21, 1974 671 SUPPLY- NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) •• Manpower and hopefully they'll be able to cost share in driver training. If not, we're going to have to go ahead and do some of that ourselves, because it's such an important aspect of employment in Northern Manitoba. I think the other thing that--(Interjection)--Mr. Chairman, I'd like to complete my comments on this matter if I could. MR, CHAIRMAN: . • . unless an honourable member wishes to . . . Continue. MR, McBRYDE: I'm sure, Mr. Chairman, that the comments of members .. . A MEMBER: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if I may say a word. MR .

CHAIRMAN: No, you cannot say a word. You know the rules, the honourable member. You can speak after the Minister - if the Minister wishes to yield the floor, fine and dandy, but you cannot get up and interrupt another member. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I'm sure the comments of some members opposite don't indicate a disinterest in the Manpower placement and training in Northern Manitoba and the benefit that has to the residents of Northern Manitoba, although I'm not sure what it in dicates. Another aspect, Mr. Chairman, of the Northern Manpower Corps is the job information officers.

These are local people in the small communities in Northern Manitoba who are fed all the information in terms of the jobs that are available so that they can pass them on to people in their community, And I know that in the past, for example, when the Minister of Labour has presented his stat ement on the number of unemployed people in Manitoba, that there has been comments from members opposite- well, this doesn't include a lot of people, the unseen unemployed, Well, Mr.

Chairman, the Northern Manpower Corps has gone through an extensive program of making sure that people are signed up with Canada Manpower, be cause they have to be signed up with Canada Manpower to take advantage of the northern pre ference clause in the agreements with Manitoba Hydro and the Allied Hydro Council and the Province of Manitoba and so there are very few people who are seeking employment in Northern Manitoba that are not signed up. I think that another very important project that Northern Manpower Corps has been in volved in is the Churchill Housing Project. Now this project, Mr.

Chairman, was initiated by the people in the community of Churchill, was really I believe a "we want jobs" committee of local residents. There was a development, redevelopment project at Churchill and many housing units had to be built. The Northern Manpower Corps responded to this need and set up a housing construction operation and training operation in one of the number of vacant buildings existing in the community of Churchill.

The persons that were hired on this project were people who in fact had not held steady employment before, were people who had in the past been largely in receipt of social assistance, largely people who had probl.ems, social problems and problems with the law, and these kind of people were more than anxious to take advantage of the opportunity presented to them in this housing program. The councillor on that particular project in the first three months had to often go to court and assist people who are working at the plant because they got into trouble but this petered off after a few months.

And in fact now, Mr. Chairman, I think we have persons who in the past did not have employ ment, were really a liability to society, have now gained pride and confidence in their ability to do a good job; have now become an asset to the province of Manitoba rather than a liability. Mr. Chairman I think I better briefly quote something from the Winnipeg Free Press of Jamuary 27, 1973: "Workmanship on Churchill Prefabricated Homes Praised.

The workman ship I found up here is over and above anything you see in the south these days commented Bernie Paluk, construction supervisor for Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation, after inspecting 39 houses prefabricated and built by largely native Churchill crews as the first instalment of homes in the federal-provincial government giant rehabilitation program." So Mr. Chairman not only are people becoming available to the labour force through this program but they are doing a good job and learning new skills.

Since that time the Churchill Housing Plant was able to get a contract with the government of the Northwest Territories to provide units to them. The last occasion when I was at Churchill there were representatives of the Northwest Territories Council looking at the project, talking to some of the Eskimo people who were brought in to also work on that project and they were satisfied using this method of providing motel units to remote communities in the Northwest Territories. We will also be taking on more contracts for federal houses in that area and we have also taken on a contract

672 February 21, 1974 SUPPLY- NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) ..•. for an office and home for Manitoba Hydro, On the more remote areas, that is on the east side of Lake Winnipeg, I guess you'd say in the constituency area of Rupertsland, where there is not rail or train transportation, the job or the effort of Northern Manpower Corps has been a little bit more limited but we have been able to assist in a number of projects in that area. One has been assistance with the Sawmill project in the community of Manigotagan where the Manigo .•.

Producers Co-op requested Corps assistance in adapting to the use of mechanized logging equipment in order that they might complete and in so doing secure future years a contract with Abitibi Pulp and Paper. Of particular interest also, Mr.

Chairman, was a contract taken on by Northern Manpower Corps in the community of Oxford House with the Hudsons Bay Company for store expansion and in that there was a local construction project going on, rather than bring in outside contractor s in the past, they contracted with Northern Manpower Corps who trained local people to provide that addition, and members may have seen in the newspaper some comments from representatives of the Hudsons Bay Company in terms of their satisfaction with that project. So, Mr.

Chairman, there are numerous areas that the Northern Manpower Corps has assisted northern people to get into those jobs that are available in the northern part of our province, and I certainly didn't - maybe the members will be surprised, go into any detail on the large number of programs that have taken place under the Northern Manpower Corps. I might point out there is some administrative difference between the The Pas unit of the Manpower Corps as it comes under The Pas Special Area Agreement and the other regions which are a provincial resp onsibility without that kind of direct federal involvement. MR.

CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River MR. BILTON: I'm surpr ised that the Minister would give us that rendition that he's given us a moment ago- I felt we were endeavouring to co-operate with him in view of the hours that have been taken and the strain that he's been under, but you know, that guff we've been getting for the last ten minutes is just beyond my comprehension. I know some of these people that are on these programs where a man was filling a wheelbarrow and sitting on a chair with a long handled shovel and getting $2. 25 an hour under some of your programs.

I've seen others straightening nails at $2. 25 an hour. A MEMBER: Where. MR. BILTON: Pelican Rapids if you want to know where and that's under his control so don't give us that stuff, you know. All I'm asking of the Minister in my opening remarks was that he would make a conscientious effort to spend every dollar that's in this program to the very best of his ability.and see to it that not a dollar was wasted. That's all I'm asking him - but he gives us a long, lot of stuff away out in Cloud Nine.

I'm only trying to be honest with the taxpayers' dollar and asking him in all sincerity to see to it that every dollar is spent and we get a dollar's worth of labour. I've got just as much respect for our people in Northern Manitoba - I've been with them for 30 or 40 years - along the McKenzie River - long before he was born, and as far as I'm concerned, I've got every respect for those northern people and every dollar that is being spent on their behalf I believe it should be spent and spent wisely, and that's all Pm asking the Minister to do; and not hand it out as though it's gone out of style. That's all.

And all the talking that he's been giving this last few moments is just water over the dam as far as I'm concerned, and if he would be honest with me, as he should be with this House, he knows what I'm talking about, and all I'm asking him to do is to see to it that we get a dollar's value for a dollar that is spent and the majority of those people in that country will do that, but don't spoil them. And with those few remarks I'll let it go. MR, CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, I had assumed and I had hoped that the members would be interested in this particular program because it is the first time the House has had a chance to go into some detail on it. Maybe they are not, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, in regards to the comments of the last speaker, I would like to say that it's not garbage and it's not water over the bridge, Mr. Chairman, when someone who hasn't had a job before has a job and is able to make a useful contribution to society. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 100(

c) Canad�r-Manitoba -- The Pas Special Area Agree ment -- pass? Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not eXceeding $2, 917, 200

February 21, 1974 673 SUPPLY- NOR THERN AF FAIRS (MR, CHAIRMAN cont'd) •••• for Northern Affairs. Pass? Resolution 101(a)--pass? The Honourable Member for Swan River • MR , BILTON: This is out of your scope altogether. This little discussion is between Ron and I. Mr. Chairman, pve been rather interested as the Minister knows on this ••• MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please. Can we have a bit of order? MR . BILTON: ••• on this information communication program in Northern Manitoba, and as I said in the Throne Speech Debate.

I have no objection whatsoever in the word being passed to the people of Northern Manitoba in their own language and by the published word, but somehow from what I learn in an indirect way, this is an expensive, program, I understand it's a co-operative program between the Federal Government and the Provincial Government and that there is something in the neighbourhood of a million dollars being spent, And I want the Minister to tell me who's on the Board of Directors; and I want him to tell me who appointed them, and I want to know the length of their appointments and the salary over the last year for trot entire staff, MR, McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, we're on the subject of the Extension Services

section of the Department of Northern Affairs. The Extension Services is divided into a number of regions, The region in which the honourable member is probably familiar with is The Pas area which is the Information Communication Program, which is a joint program of the federal and provincial government, the objectives of which are to insure that residents of remote and northern communities have the infOrmation opportunity to participate fully in the social and economic life of the province.

The two instruments used to obtain these objectives are the Information Communication Program in The Pas Special Area and the five regional information programs of the extension services. Mr.

Chairman, I can understand when the Leader of the Opposition flies into Northern Manitoba and talks maybe to only a couple of people in the urban centres and then flies back to the city again, that he might easily get some misunderstanding or misinformation as to what is the situation in Northern Manitoba, but I can't help but express my disappointment at the Member for Swan River • a member who travels out into the communities, a member who talks to people in the communities, who does his homework as MLA for the area, and, Mr.

Chairman a member who I thought had some understanding of the communities and what was taking place in those communities, so I am quite disappointed that he hasn't been able to understand this particular program and the way it's been serving the remote communities and some of the communities in his particular area. Mr.

Chairman, one of the unique aspects of this program, and I think it answers the question that the Member for Swan River is referring to, is the fact that each of the areas has a consulting committee structure in which members of the community serve- form a sort of board of directors and give guidance to the program and give advice on what areas should be pursued in terms of this particular program. They are also, Mr.

Chairman, a unique program in that if a person is to be hired for a particular community, let's say the community of Pine Dock, then the community itself is involved in the selection process of the worker that works in their community. Mr. Chairman, earlier in his comments the Member for Swan River mentioned that these certainly must be political appointments. Well, Mr.

Chairman, this is one area where it would be impossible if it was my wish to make a political appointment because the members of the community are involved in the selection of the per son they want in their particular community and it's been a unique thing- it causes some problems sometimes in a community when a local person applies and doesn't get the job, but I think over all it's been quite beneficial using that kind of approach. And I know, Mr. Speaker, that many farmers arqund the province would like to have some say in their extension work, who's hired in their particular area. MR . CHAlliMAN: Order please.

Order. Order. OrdeL Does the honourable member (Mr. Enns) wish to engage in a verbal debate? I'll invite you after 9 o'clock and we'll have one outside the Chamber. Right now I am not recognizing you. Obey the rules of the House as other members are trying to do. The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR . McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, the specific program under the Extension Division that the Member for Swan River was interested in was the Information Communication Program. The salaries in that program are $113. 8 thousand, the expenses are $259. 9 thousand, for a total of $373.7 thousand.

Recoveries from the Federal Government is $118,000 for the

674 February 21, 1974 SUPPLY- NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) .•.. upcoming year- it's been a diminishing agreement, every year we get a little bit less propo rtionately from that program, for a total cost of $255, 000, 00. Mr. Chairman, I'll just take a moment to find out who the Board of Directors are for that particular program, Mr.

Chairman the IC program at The Pas was one of the first programs set up and the formal method of appointment was not fully established at that time, At the present time the person recommended by the communities involved, we have accepted their recommendations and appointed those people to the advisory committee. In the case of The Pas Special Area, the board has more legal authority probably than in the other area and the Chairman of the Board of the Information Communication program is, Mr. Stan Wilson is the Chairman from The Pas Reserve at The Pas. A representative from the town of The Pas is Mrs.

Clair Martin; a representative for Wanless is Nina Pfund, a person of native ancestry; a representative from the province is Phil Thompson; a repre sentative from Cormorant is Lorraine Genaille, a person of native ancestry; a representative from Moose Lake is Davis Lathlin a treaty Indian from Moose Lake; the representative from Cranberry Portage is Michael Petryk.from Cranberry Portage, recommended by the community, the representative from Easterville is Mr.

McLeod George, a treaty Indian from that community, the representative from Grand Rapids is Hubert Sinclair, a native person from Grand Rapids; a representative from the Federal Government is Ron Nablow from Ottawa; the second repre sentative of the Federal Government is Doug Collins from Winnipeg; and a second representa: tive of the province of Manitoba is Orval Strong from The Pas. Mr. Chairman, the two representatives from the Provincial Government are provincial civil servants who are involved in this type of work.

The two representatives from the Federal Government are federal civil servants who are involved in this type of work, Mr. Chairman this particular program is one of those programs that we define as a soft program as opposed to a building project or something like that. Mr. Chairman, the Federal Government has been involved in a number of programs of this nature throughout Canada, and, Mr. Chairman, some of them have been very unsuccessful, some of them have been minor successes in their attempts at social development.

The official evaluator of the department of Region Economic Expansion has told me that the IC program at The Pas is probably the most successful progr.am in Canada, of a program of this particular nature. Mr. Chairman, I don't know if the members opposite would like- Mr. Chairman, the publication that the Member for Swan River holds up has been Jailed, and I would agree, is a Mickey Mouse publication, But, Mr. Chairman, that is the kind of newspaper, Mr.

Chair man, that kind of simple newsletter is the kind that receives more attention and more reading in northern Manitoba than any other kind of publication that has been able to put up, Mr. Chairman, I'd assume that it's even more widely read in the Swan River . MR. BILTON: I rise on a point of order. I certainly do, MR. CHAIRMAN: What is your point of order? MR. BILTON: When the Minister talks about $3 72,000 of taxpayer's money. MR. CH AIRMAN: Order please. What is your point of order? MR . BILTON: .•• as soft money, and he accuses me of being a Minnie Mouse of northern Manitoba • . • MR . CHAIRMAN: Order.

Order. ORDER! ORDER! ORDER PLEASE! A MEMBER: You should be ashamed of yourself. MR. CHAIRMAN: ORDER PLEASE! The honourable -- ORDER! ORDER PLEASE! A MEMBER: There's the Minnie Mouse •.• MR. CHAIRMAN: ORDER PLEASE! Will the Honourable Member for Swan River please desist. How the Honourable Minister said that the publication that you were holding up was Mickey Mouse, and if you consider that calling you Minnie Mouse, then I think you'd better have your ears examined, ORDER! Is the honourable member going to behave himself? MR. BILTON: What do you mean, behave myself? MR.

CHAIRMAN: I appeal to you to act in a responsible manner. Now order! The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. --(Int erjection)-- ORDER! A MEMBER: What, again? MR. CHAIRMAN: If the h>nourable member persists, I have no alternative but to call the Speaker. ORDER PLEASE!

February 21, 1974 675 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS MR . BILTON: I've got as much right to be here as you have . MR . CHAIRMAN: ORDER! I am not disputing the honourable member's fact that he has as much right to be here as I have. ORDER! I am not questioning it! MR . BILTON: Yes you are. MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please. Call in the Speaker. Is the honourable member pre- pared to allow the Minister to continue? MR . BILTON: Sir, I apologize to you. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs, MR . McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to apologize for the fact that the Member from Swan River misunderstood my comments ..• and that I was referring to sometimes the newspapers he was holding up were called Mickey Mouse and no one was calling him Minnie Mouse, But, Mr. Chairman -- (Interjection)-- the .. , MR . CHAIRMAN: ORDER PLEASE! ORDER PLEASE! The terms that the Minister used are just ones that -- ORDER! ! that an honourable member of the opposition used the other day, and if you want to check Hansard they're there.

And I did not rule them out of order at that time and I'm not proceeding to rule them out of order at this time. The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, the point that I was trying with very great difficulty to make was the fact that the kind of publication the Member from Swan River was holding up, although it might appear at first observation to be kind of a high school newspaper type of publication, it's one that has in fact been able to provide information to people in remote communities in northern Manitoba, and do so quite successfully, much more successfully than more elaborate, fancy, printed material that normally come from government sources, Mr, Chairman, the other evening in commenting on this type of program, the Member for Fort Rouge asked a question about, would this service be better provided by a private agency as opposed to a government or a provincial government or federal government agency.

Mr, Chairman, he sort of advanced the theory that if in fact a private agency were given a contract to do this kind of service that somehow then we wouldn't get the kind of political charges, the political accusations that were coming from members opposite. Well, Mr, Chairman, I think that probably in the last few days, he's gained enough education to see the fact that no matter what kind of structure that this kind of service is provided under, it's going to get the kind of criticism for political reasons that has come from members on the opposite side of the House. Mr.

Chairman, I'm sure the Member for Fort Rouge realizes this in a sense that even a private institute like the Urban Institute has been accused of being a political front for the Liberal Party and that there's no way to escape that kind of accusation made for political reasons, and that whether it's a private service or a government service I think that kind of thing is still going to go on. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 100(a)--pass? (b)--pass? (c)--pass? Resolution 101: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $915, 600 for Northern Affairs-pass?

Resolution 102 (a)--pass? (b)--pass? (c)--pass? Resolution 102: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1, 155,500 for Northern Affairs pass • , . The Honourable Member for Lake side? Pass? Resolution 103( a)--pass? (b)--pass? Resolution 103: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $198, 000 for Northern Affairs pass? That completes the Department of Northern Affairs, The Honourable Member for Lake side. MR.

ENNS: I don't believe you called the final call for the passage of $11, 962, 800 for the Department, and before you do that, Sir, I do want to make a few concluding remarks on behalf of the official Opposition Party. They are namely this, that we have attempted, Sir .. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, The item that the honourable member is referring to is not an item that is passed in block at this stage of proceedings. It is passed in concurrences. The item of $11, 962, 800. 00, The department as far as examination by the Committee of Supply of the House is completed at this time. MR.

ENNS: Despite your invitation to me personally to engage in the manly art outside of this Chamber earlier on this evening .•.

676 SUPPLY- NORTHERN AFFAIRS MR. CHAlll MAN: No, I didn't ••• February 21, 1974 MR . ENNS: I want to indicate to you, Sir, that I have at no time any difficulty in accepting the ruling of the Chair, and I will choose the appropriate moment, Sir, then to make those remarks that I wanted to make with respect to this department at the time of concurrence, concurrence motion, which is my right and I will then make those remarks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. For the honourable member's edification, I didn't invite him to - a manly art, I said a debate • . . MR .

ENNS: Whether it was to be six ounce gloves or eight ounce gloves. MR . CHAIRMAN: It was a debate. MR . ENNS: That was the only problem that we had.: MR . CHAmMAN: That completes the Department of Northern Mfairs. The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if there would be a general inclination to have the Committee rise at this time, rather than introduce a new department with six minutes to go. Committee rise. MR . CHAmMAN: Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. Committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. IN SESSION A MEMBER:- Minnie can be your second. MR . SPEAKER: Order please.

The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Matthews, that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. . • • • continued on next page

February 21, 1974 677 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLUT IONS MR. SPEAKER: The item before the House is Private Members' Resolutions. We are on Resolution No. 17. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. WARNER H. JORGEN SON (Morri s): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Rock Lake, that:

WHEREAS the emphasis of government involvement and activity has shifted considerably during the past year; and

WHEREAS the Standing Committee of the Legislature do not reflect the changes in res ponsibility in activities of government; THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this House give consideration to the advisability of changing the number of some of the responsibilities of some of the Standing Committees of the Legislature. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, honourable members will recognize that the resolution before the House is couched in language that is fairly general. I did that, Sir, for two reasons.

First of all, because I preferred to have the resolution couched in general terms to promote the widest variation of opinion on the subject; and secondly, to challenge honourable gentlemen opposite to try and amend this resolution so that it could be amended to be one of those self congratulatory amendments that they are so want to propose to every resolution that is brought before this House.

Sir, when the rules were amended a few years ago to change the method by which we would be dealing with Private Members' Resolutions, it was felt that by dealing with Private Members' Resolutions on a hour a day basis, it would enable members to discuss a greater variety of resolutions. In other words, individual members would have the opportunity of pro posing ideas before this House in the form of resolutions that would encourage honourable gentlemen in the back row opposite to participate, and I've had the misfortune, if you want to call it that, to sit on the government back bench for awhile.

I know the kind of frustrating ex perience it is. But here was the one occa sion that government backbenchers could take ad vantage to debate, and it's somewhat disappointing to find that very few of them availed them selves of that opportunity, and I'm not sure that it's because they're told not to or whether they just choose not to.

But it is an opportunity, without committing the government, without committing anybody but themselves, to a particular point of view, because Private Members' Resolutions are introduced and there's nothing stopping government backbenchers from intro ducing private members' resolutions if they have a particular idea or a particular point of view that they want to put forth. It doesn't commit anybody, and particularly since this government has taken the view that private members' resolutions are meaningless.

That was not always the attitude in this House; there was a time when private members' resolutions, if they were adopted by the government, were acted on by the government. Now they are simply, they're simply amended, reduced to a meaningless concoction of words that are self-congratulatory, and what we finally pass on almost every resolution that comes before the House is a resolution that pats the government on the back. Hardly, hardly, Sir, the sort of thing that is conducive to the expression of a variety of opinions which is really what we should encourage in this House.

Now, Sir --(Interjection) -- well, the First Mini'lter said, it's never happened before. Yes, it did, and that is the reason, and that is the reason why the Rules Committee changed the rules, they've changed the method whereby we were dealing with private members' resolu tions, to discourage the habit of amending resolutions to the point that they were meaningless, but rather to encourage debate.

Sir, it only requires one hour a day, and at the very most if there are 15 or 20 resolutions on the Order Paper, at the very most, during the course of the consideration of estimates, those resolutions would come up at the most twice during the course of the session. Twenty minute speeches, which means that only three people can speak, would have· the opportunity of speaking. Do you mean to tell me the honourable gentlemen opposite can't find six honourable gentlemen who could talk out a resolution. Are they that bereft of talent on the other side .•. A MEMBER: They are. They are. MR.

JORGENSON: .•• they're incapable of expressing an opinion, a viewpoint on the resolutions brought before the House without amending it so that they can deliver the same speech about congratulating the government all the time.

678 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLUTIONS A MEMBER: They are. MR . JORGENSON: It would appear so, Sir. February 21, 1974 Well, the whole purpose --(Interjection)-- well, I'm beginning to, I'm beginning to be lieve that. The House Leader has said that's the only speech that they know on the other side - and I'm beginning to believe that that is right, because that's the only one we ever hear.

Sir, the purpose of private members' resolutions is not necessarily to place the government in a position where they simply must accept the private members' resolution, because if you'll notice, Sir, since we adopted this method at the expiry of the consideration of estimates, private members' resolutions just dropped.

But the opportunity to present those resolutions, the opportunity to speak on them, and the opportunity for honourable gentlemen opposite to express opinions on them - and they can be a variety or shades of opinion, not necessarily agreeing, they could be opposed, and they could be opposed in varying degrees - but it does provide that opportunity to debate. Instead of that we find ourselves almost always talking about the amendments that are going to be proposed, and the amendments are always the same.

Sir, it's a frustrating experience, and in much the same way the resolution that is now before the House is one that is intended, and I did not include a specific recommendation in the resolution because that's what I want to hear from honourable gentlemen opposite. In the final analysis, Sir, there is going to be some changes in the committee structures.

I believe that in the experiences we've had that the next time that the Rules Committee is set up, the Rules Committee will want to deal with that very thing, because it is one of the changes that are required in the manner in which we deal with the business of this House. I did not propose a specific change in the resolution itself, but what I had in mind and I want to hear expressions of opinions on that subject from honourable gentlemen, so that when the Rules Committee does start to consider it they will have some opinion of the House as to what lhey think of a proposal that I am about to make.

As I say it is not contained in the re solution itself, but it's going to be contained in the remarks that I'm going to make. A MEMBER: You're going to spring it on the Conservative Caucus now, are you Warner? MR. JORGENSON: Sir, at the present time we have ten Standing Committees of the House. There are several of them that do perform useful functions.

Law Amendments is a committee that is utilized to a large extent; Public Accounts is a committee that is going to be used a great deal more than it has in the past - it is going to become a far more meaningful committee than it has in the past; and the Public Utilities and Natural Resources Committee is one that is used to a considerable extent because there are a number of Public Utilities that have their annual reports submitted before this Committee during the course of the session.

The Municipal Affairs Committee is one that is used to a considerable extent because there are a number of Public Utilities that have their annual reports submitted before this Committee during the course of the session. The Municipal Affairs Committee is one that is used to a considerable extent because there are a number of Municipal Affairs Bills that are brought before the House, and there are investigations into municipal matters. For example, a tho rough examination that was conducted by the Municipal Affairs Committee on the amendments of the Municipal Act.

The Industrial Relations Committee is one that has been used to a large extent, and the Economic Development Committee, which is a recent committee of this House, can perform a useful function as well because there are a number of Crown Corporations that have been set up that require some form of examination from time to time.

But there are three committees of the House, Sir, that to my knowledge, have been used so rarely that one wonders why they exist at all, and it makes it difficult when attempting to provide a list of membership on those committees, particularly in the case of my honourable friends to the left, the Liberal Party, who have only five members, there is a multiplicity of committees that have to be staffed by all parties and the difficulty of one member belonging to more than three committees, even if they don't meet, is something that I think should be changed.

Oh my suggestion, Sir, that since the Privileges and Elections Committee, and here is a committee that I think should be put to use this Session to examine, or between this Session and the next one, to examine the entire Election Act, so that recommendations can come from that committee. It will have the power to call the kind of witnesses that they should be calling before a committee of that nature; it will have the power to do the things that are necessary to bring about amendments to the Election Act.

February 21, 1974 679 PRIVATE MEMBERS1RESOLU TIONS (MR. JORGENSON cont'

d) The second committee that has not been used to the extent that I think a committee should be used, is the one on Private Bills, Standing Orders, Printing and Library. How often in the past five years has that committee met ? A MEMBER: That's a fine committee. MR. JORGENSON: And the third one of course is the Statutory Regulations and Orders.

Now there are three committees, three committees, Sir, that I believe could be combined into one, and having combined those committees into one it will reduce the number of commit tees to the extent that there will be - it will be possible to find membership on all of the Standing Committees that are in the House without having to duplicate them too often.

Now in replacing those three committees I would suggest that we set up - and I wouldn't even want to suggest a name for it because I thinkl'll leave that to my honourable friends oppo site - a committee that would combine the functions of the three committees that I've just mentioned, plus what I think should be a standing committee of this House, a standing commit tee on the rules and if we have a committee that would combine the function of these three committees plus the functions of the Rules Committee, then we would have a standing commit tee of this House that would be performing a very useful function.

There are times, Sir, and you know that very well, that problems arise in connection with the

interpretation of rules; problems arise in connection with the conduct of the business of this House that should be referred to a rules committee almost immediately and if that was a standing committee that could be done without having to wait for a special committee to be set up to examine the rules in order to make recommendations and changes. So if honourable gentlemen opposite would accept the recommendation that this kind of a committee should be set up, I will leave it to them to name the committee.

On the other hand, Sir, there are other areas of government that are assuming a greater and greater share of the provincial budget, for which there is not a committee, for which there is no method of examination, and from time to time we have suggested that the budgets and the reports of the University of Winnipeg, the University of Manitoba and the University of Brandon should be examined.

The proper place to examine those reports would be in the committee and I would suggest, Sir, that to replace the three committees that would disappear as a result of my suggestion, that we do set up a committee of Education and Health and Social Development. Now I know that's not a new idea. I know that when honourable gentlemen opposite were on this side of the House, they very frequently made recommendations to the effect that such a committee should be set up, one on Education.

I think perhaps one of the reasons why that committee was, that suggestion was never adopted because it was just adding to the already long list of committees that were available to members, and many of which were never used. What I'm suggesting is a reduction of the number of committees by three and adding two, so we'll wind up with one committee less than we have at the present time, but the committees so structured, under the suggestion I'm making, would have a purposeful and meaningful role to fulfil.

There is no question that a committee set up for the examination of the Health Department and the Education Department since these two departments of govern ment spend about three quarters of the total budget. It seems to me that that kind of a commit tee could not only during the course of this session, but between sessions, carry out a very useful and important role, just as some of the other committees do.

Sir, I offer these suggestions to the House in the hope that that I can provoke debate, shades of opinion on the subject - I don't expect that there should be a final conclusion on it, but I do expect that it's a subject that's important enough to debate in this Chamber.

The recommendations or the suggestions that come forth through the debate could be taken into consideration by the Rules Committee when that committee is structured to deal with the mat ters that will be assigned to it and the terms of reference that will be given to that committee, and I would hope that the examination of the committee structure would be one of those terms of reference that would be assigned to the work of that committee. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affair s. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Speaker, I will have some specific proposals to suggest later in my brief remarks on this resolution. I would think that the proposals that the Member for Morris has suggested, and those that I will also offer, should be discussed more properly in the Rules Committee of the House

680 February 21, 1974 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLUTIONS (MR. TURNBULL cont'd) ... and I will make the following remarks on the understanding that the Rules Committee will presumably consider these and other matters. I would like to reflect for a few moments on the opening remarks that the Member for Morris has just suggested to us. He has enticed the members of the back bench to speak and being a recent resident in the back bench I felt called upon to address myself to these remarks.

I think that the remarks made by the Member for Morris are worth noting because he has asked for members of the back bench to speak and I can recall so vividly the Member for Morris becoming indignant to the point of hardly being able to contain his indignation when members of the back bench in the last session and the sessions previously did stand up and address them selves to Private Members' Resolutions, and also of course felt called upon to bring forward their own resolutions in this Legislature for debate.

The Member for Morris leading the indicant crew on the other side would often stand in his place and deliver of himself one of those speeches that really are quite remarkable for their forensic skill.

And I can recall, too, having to stand on various occasions and say back to him that I as a member of the back bench at that time really felt that I had equal rights in the House and had every right to speak on the Estimates, and continually had to explain to the Member for Morris that the rights of members of the Legislature were rights that could be used equally by all, but he never seemed to learn from my lectures on this subject, Mr.

Speaker - at least he never seemed to learn until this session when he indicated that all mem bers were equal in their rights before you, Sir, when he spoke on your nomination at the be ginning of this session, and of course he indicated that he had learned, too, when he spoke just a few minutes ago. I should say, Mr. Speaker, that the need for reorganization of the standing Committee structure in the Legislature, and I think in all Legislatures, is one that the Rules Committee should address itself to.

The Member for Morris, you know, is one I guess that can change his mind not only on the right of backbenchers of the government side to share equally the rights of the House, but he's also one who can change his mind on such a topic as the change in the structure of the Standing Committee of the Legislature.

I can recall so well three years ago in the Rules Committee bringing forward what I thought, from my study of parliamentary systems to be a quite comprehensive reform of the Standing Committee structure in the Legislature, and I brought it to the Rules Committee, of which I was a member at that time, only to find that the Member from Morris really thought it was impractical, and now I find that he apparently has accepted those ideas, those sugges tions, and indeed seems to want to ask me a question about my proposals now, so I'l l yield to a question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member from Morris. MR.

JORGENSON: Mr. Chairman, if the honourable member will permit me, I believe that I must rise, and since I hardly think it's a point of order I will pose it in the form of a question. The recommendations that he made at that time, would he not agree, are far re moved from the recommendations that I'm making now? I would still disagree with the re commendations that he made at that time. MR.

TURNBU LL: I say, Sir, that as most progressives on this side of the House, myself being one of them, the proposals I made for the revision of the Standing Committee of the Legislature were indeed far more reform-oriented than the suggestions that the Member for Morris has made. I think that there is certainly some need to change the committee structure in such a way that there would be, as I have suggested, as the Member for Morris has suggested, a committee which would review the programs, the policies of the Departments of Health and the Department of Education.

Now I cannot of course, and will not, and do not intend my re marks to be taken as in any way a commitment by the government, but in my opinion that committee would be an essential one. I would think though that there is another area, which as an urban member concerns me perhaps even more than the area of education and health, and that is the whole area of urban affairs.

I think that as the population of Manitoba is distributed some 54 percent in the City of Winnipeg and the other 46 percent or so outside of the City ofWinnipeg, and as we have a Municipal Affairs Committee, which tends to spend most of its time on municipal matters

February 21, 1974 681 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLUTIONS (MR. TURNBU LL cont'd) .•. outside of the City of Winnipeg, that we should have an urban affairs committee to review urban policy and program and legislation. And I orginally, three years ago, and today, concede the standing committees as a very good training ground for new members and for even some members that have been around longer than one or two sessions.

I would think that the Committees on Urban Affairs, the Committees on Health and Education · could be used to develop amongst the various members of the House some expertise on these various subjects, policy areas.

More important though, in my opinion, again in my opinion, is the need to provide a forum for a more adequate, a more thorough, a more probing, penetrating analysis of the Estimates, and although that process has generally gone on in Committee of the Whole in this Chamber, I have thought for three or four years now that that process could more properly be carried on, more adequately carried on in the Standing Committees of the Legislature.

Now if the Estimates were to go to those Standing Committees and if the various Standing Committees could meet simultaneously, to the extent of course that we have enough members in the House to go around to all the committees, then we could speed up the estimates procedure insofar as it hinders or slows down the business of the house, we could have members of the Legislature interested in, say, Urban Affairs, specializing in that area, concentrating on legislation; amendments to legislation, policy development, that type of thing, and also those same members would be enabled to consider the estimates of those departments, say the Department of Urban Affairs.

So they would develop, those members of the standing committees as I envisage them, would develop a real expertise; they would be familiar not only with the legislation, not only with the program and policy of a department but also with the money and the way it was expended, and they could question civil servants of the various departments that they were examinin g. I think that in that way the members of the House would become much more informed about programs and that that would contribute to a better debate in the House, less raucous debates and more informed debates.

Well I put those proposals out for discussion on this resolution and hopefully for future discussion in the Rules Committee of the House. I can understand of course why the resolution of the Member for Morris is vague, and I think if one reads it one can see it's vague - he in effect has acknowledged that it's a vague resolution, and he has given his reasons for it. I know that drawing up proposals for restructuring the standing committees of the House is not an easy task.

The main problem lies of course in the fact that there are only 57 members of the House, that those members would have to be distributed rather thinly amongst the various standing committees, particularly if the standing committees were reorganized along the lines that I have suggested. The other problem of course is that because of our rules there is the difficulty of de bating the same matters again during concurrence, especially if the estimates were referred from the Committee of Supply.

Committee of the Whole House to the standing committees and discussed there and passed there, then brought back in here, we would have presumably - we could easily have a recurrence, a duplication of the debate in the House on concurrences. That problem would have to be resolved, I assume, by some amendment in the rules, and perhaps going only so far as limiting the time that a member could speak on concurrences in the House.

Another problem I think, another reason why the Member for Morris has drafted his resolution in such a vague way really gets at a basic problem in changing the committee struc ture of a parliamentary democracy, of a parliamentary system. What could happen of course if the standing committee system is not changed with great care is that we could verge on to a congressional system. And a congressional system, Mr. Chairman - Mr. Speaker, I think is not one that lends itself to good government.

I feel that in all cases that any change, that any discussion of the Rules Committee, any recommendation that they make, should avoid so strengthening the committee system that we would end up with what would amount to the con gressional committee system as practised in the United States; and that problem, Sir, is one that some members of the House I gather do not consider to be a problem.

I have heard mem bers of the Liberal Party here, and outside of this House, make remarks which indicate to me that either they do not understand the parliamentary democratic system or, they are so enam oured with the political structure - and I won' t talk about this process down there - but the political structure of the United States that they want to bring it into this Legislation in this province. And I would caution both the Member for Morris and our own members to avoid so

682 February 21, 1974 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLUTIONS (MR. TURNBULL cont'd) ... changing the committee structure that they do in fact give birth to what will develop into a full blown congressional committee system. Ifwe went that way; Sir, we would hardly improve good government in this province; I think that what we would do is weaken the leadership that a Cabinet system can provide and really put into the hands of commit tees those functions and those debates that should properly be carried out in the House.

But apart from that major and very significant problem, the suggestion that the committee structure should be revamped I think is a good one.

It is one that I have proposed in the past three years ago as I have said, and I think that many of the members here, especially those who at the moment for various reasons play a less active role in debate than they might, they should give due consideration to this resolution and analyze it and realize the implications that it involves, and when they've done that, that they then should enter into the debate and make their contributions, keeping in mind of course that presumably the suggestions that are made by members will end up in the Rules Committee and be discussed properly there. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR . G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Splaker, I've waited for the Honourable Member to complete his remarks, but I rise on a point of order. And the point of order is that nowhere in the record of the Liberal Party of Canada or of Manitoba, does the honourable member find that the Liberal Party supported the congressional system in Canada. We may have ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. That is not a point of order; that is a matter of explanation. If the honourable member wishes to debate the point, he's welcome. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I'll speak on the debate. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G.

JOHNSTON: I'm surprised that the honourable member, who is a newly appointed Minister, would take it upon himself to lecture people that have had a little bit more experience than himself in the process of legislative or parliamentary democracy, and I would ask him, and I know he can't speak again, and the Liberal Party of Canada has governed Canada for over two-thirds of the time since Confederation. and at no time did they ever say or express the feeling that Canada should be governed under the congressional system. And I was surprised that the member would try to make a major point out of this.

I am surprised, really. Can he say that the Hon. D. L. Campbell, who sat in this House for many years ... A MEMBER: 47 years. MR. G. JOHNSTON: ... forty-seven years, Premier for ten, Cabinet Minister for 14 years, espoused what he has said about the Liberal Party? I can't believe it.

I can't believe it. --(I nterjections)-- We have heard, we have beard many ideas on both sides of the House and there's nothing wrong with discussing ideas, there's nothing wrong with saying, well, in the United States or in West Germany� or in France, there are certain ideas that are appealing and they should be talked about, but for the new Minister to stand up and say, well the Liberal Party has consistently espoused the idea that the congressional system should be brought in here is nonsense. A MEMBER: Is he a member of the Party? MR. G.

JOHNSTON: You know, I know the word "lie" is not parliamentary, but I would suggest that the honourable member is a stranger to the truth in this matter. --(Inter jections)--

February 21, 197 4 683 PRIVATE MEMBERS ' RESOLU TIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Pa rty. MR . ASP ER: Well, Mr. Speaker, in a sentence, the resolution before the House is eminently acc eptable and sound, and certainly I will find myself in total sympathy with it and able to vote for it. And, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker,-- (lnterjections)--W ell, I hear, I hear - I hear the yowling of the Minister of Financ e, who rarely makes a coherent contribution to the House unless it's from his seat, and Mr. Speaker, this is something that may be foreign to him, he may not understand it.

This is so mething called the free debate. This is the Pri vate Members' Hour. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Fina nce and his Party wouldn't understand that. --(I nterjections)--The regimented discipline, doctrine and doctrinaire approach of the NDP couldn't conceive that we could have a private members' debate in which some of us may differ. A MEMBER: Strangers to the truth. Strangers to the truth. MR . ASPER: Who are you referring to now? Oh. Well, Mr.

Speaker, the other yahoo who wishes to contribute from his seat, the Minister of Mines and Resources, who couldn't possibly take this kind of a debate seriously because he knows, he knows that there's no way that the government will permit the private members of their own Pa rty, of this side of the House ... one, SOME MEMBERS: No. No. No. MR . ASPER: to actually come to a vote on a matter, because we haven't come to A MEMBER: Yes. MR . ASPER: we haven't had a vote, and we're not going to have a vote unless we agree to an amendment which emasculates and neutralizes the entire resolution.

Now, here is a resolution that says there's something wrong with the committee system, and let's change it. Mr. Speaker, I want to put on the record - regardless of the New Year's Eve celebration that's going on on the government side of the House - I want to put on the record that I condemn and I express supreme di staste and contempt as a person who believes in freedom and democracy for the present committee system of this House. I do.

Now, the feigned wound to the heart of the Minister of Finance who has a sort of a ambi valent philosophy, a philosophy which is relevant, when he's on one side of the House, and a philosophy which is di ametrica lly opposite, but still relevant to him, when he's on the other side of the House. Because the great democrat, the great freedom lover, has become the great arrogant, the great dictator, the great restrainer of all kinds of freedom in this House. Well now, this is very simple. This is very simple. The issue is very simple, Mr.

Speaker. --(I nterjections)--The Minister for Coasumer Affairs, the Minister for Consumer Affairs urges me to speak of the issue. The issue is very simple: that the committee system in the House which was designed to amplify, designed to give the probing, the investigative power in a more inti mate, a more workable technique than in this Chamber, is thwarted, is made a mockery, because the government decides through its stooges - and I use the word "stooges" - what the committee will do. SOME MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! MR. ASPER: Well, giving an example, Mr.

Speaker, and there's no more classic example - yes, I used the word "stooges", and if the shoe fits, let members opposite wear it, cause, Mr. Speaker, I find it difficult to expect the people of Manitoba to understand that we go into alleged committee for exhaustive, microscopic detailed analysis, and those committees deal with nothing except what the government wants dealt with, and those things which need investigation, and which the government would find embarrassing to have investigated, some how don't get done. They just don't have it. And I'll tell you why they don't have it.

Because the chairman of the committee is the stooge of the government; and the majority of the co mmit tee is the stooge of the government; and the members of the committee who come trying to do their job and do the function that the committee was assigned to handle . . . MR . SPEAKER: Order please. I would hope the honourable member is cog niza nt of what he's saying, because the whole parli amentary system works that way. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, I have said on three occasions since this session began, and Mr. Speaker, Mr.

Speaker, I hear yowls from the other side to the effect that I spit on the parli amentary system. Mr. Speaker ... MR. SPE AKER: Order please.

684 February 21, 1974 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLUTI ONS MR. ASPER: ... I answer that by saying this. I spit - and I do spit - I spit and show supreme anger at the arrogance, the dictatorship and the system that these people call the parli amentary system, because the parli amentary system is not a dictatorship . . . A MEMBER: What? MR. ASPER: . . . it is an exchange.

But since God smiled on the people of Manitoba and brought us this totalitarian regime-- (Interjections)--we have not had - and perhaps honour able members opposite may say, maybe it was that way before, and beca use that is a favorite, that is a favorite explanation of the First Minister for every corrupt practice that's discovered, for every ignoble deed, the First Minister has always sat up and said, well you know, we're no worse than the Federal Liberals; we're no worse than the previous administration of the Conservatives; and that satisfies, that's balm to thei r conscience.

But you know, all of us know, that if we're serious about anything in this House, the committee system which we have before us for review is an anachronistic joke. I recall the legislation that says that the Public Accounts Committee will explore the spending of government, and last year, Mr. Speaker, looking at a billion of spending, that committee got three or four hours to look at a billion dollars of spending. --(Interj ection) --And, Mr. Speaker, ... MR . SPE AKER: Order please. MR. ASPER: ... Mr.

Speaker, if you talk about the make-up or the content of the material before the Economic Affairs Committee, dealing with the matter of a development corporation, Mr. Speaker, observe when we go into that committee what members adverse to the government request and what is denied them, and I look at the - I look at the Minister in charge of the Manitoba Development Corporation - we asked a question of him, we asked a question of him, will we, the board of directors of Manitoba, the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, will we simply be given the same data that a shareholder of a Manitoba company would get?

And that great misrepresenter of fact, that spinner of webs, the Minister in charge, says oh yeah, you'll get better. Well, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, for one minor example .. A MEMBER: Are you a leader ? MR. ASPER: . . . the shareholder of a corporation, a company in Manitoba, under the Act that they passed, that they administer, must receive (

a) a financia l statement within six months of year end - not a year of year end, but six months of year end; and (

b) is entitled to question the directorship of that company. Mr. Speaker, that is denied, that element, that miniscule observance of disclosure, which is peanuts compared to the kind of disclosure that's being requested across this country, that's denied - and that's the committee system, Mr. Speaker. -- (Interjections)--And, Mr. Speaker, that's right. The Honourable Minister in charge of - what ? 14, 15, 16 Manitoba companies, the empire, the Cz ar, the companies that have lost - what? 16, 20, who knows? Forty milli on?-- (Interjections)--Mr.

Speaker, that's the man who - and I choose my words ca refully, gives us the impression, gives Manitoba the impression, that he will tell them what he thinks they should know. A MEMBER: Right. MR. SP EAKER: Order please. MR . ASPER: Mr. Speaker ... A MEMBER: Democracy. MR. ASPER: ... there will come a time in this session . A MEMBER: Open government. MR. ASPER: Well, I hear calls of open government. Open government, Mr. Speaker, hollow, ludicrous mockery ... A MEMBER: You didn't even hear what I said. MR . ASPER: They don't know what we're talking about. MR . SPEAKER: Order please.

A MEMBER: Did you hear what I . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, the comedian who calls himself Minister of Corporate and Consumer Affairs has been heard by me, and where he substitutes in sult for intelligence, he substitutes-- (Interjection) -- A MEMBER: We have no choice. MR. ASPER: Well, ... that he has no choice, that's his only weapon. Mr. Speaker, the point I make is this, there will come a time during this session, before this House

February 21, 1974 685 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLUTI ONS (MR. ASPER cont'd) ..... adjourns ... -- (Interjections)--Mr. Speaker, there seems to be an echo in the Chamber. I hear an owl hooting from the direction of the Minister of Corporate and Consumer Affairs. Well, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, we have, we have - and I say to the government, take notice; we have as much time as they have, and if debate is stifled by yowling, .it'll happen next week, we'll go on, because we will not be pushed out of the House, and we will not be thwarted in debating the issues. (Applause) Mr. Speaker, Mr.

Speaker, I don't regard this resolution as the appropriate moment to say what I have to say about the issue that this Resolution embodies. There will be better times. All I say tonight, Mr. Speaker, is that the resolution is eminently fair, it's sensible, it takes into consideration that there's a gap in parli amentary democracy, It acknowledges and gives the government a chance, it gives the government a chance to, without losing face, say, yeah we'll consider this, we'll take this under advisement. Mr.

Speaker, I don't have in pocket, as I did last night, the record but I will in future lay out for the government the record of having heard private members' resolutions in a given session, within a session or two enact them, and that's to their credit, but Mr. Speaker, why do we have to go through the charade ? Why can't we bring this resolution to a vote?- - (Interjection) --Well, Mr. Speaker, if that's a pro mise we'll vote. Mr. Speaker, on the promise of the Member from Winnipeg Centre, I sit down for a vote. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. MR . GREEN: ... Mr. Speaker ... MR.

SP EAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR . TURNBU LL: I would just like to ask the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party if he was in the House to hear my remarks on this resolution, to the effect that the Standing Committees of the House should be allowed to consider the spending estimates and should be specialist committees which would develop expertise amongst the members, not only in legis lation policy program but also on spending. MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I heard those remarks, and I commend them, and because I am so confident in the freedom-loving nature of the man who has just spoken, I sit down and move the vote. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I believe that I've been recognized I'm sorry. Mr. Speaker, I think that the honourable member, the Leader of the Liberal Party, will have to give each parliam entarian the right to proceed as he wishes. The honourable member is very anxious to know whether the resolution can be voted upon and will be passed.

I tell the honourable mem ber that we have no hesitation in saying that the resolution will be voted on, and will be passed. Mr. Speaker, the question of when is a question which is allowed to the members of the House. I noted that the Member for Lakeside wants to speak, the Member from Roblin wants to speak, but the Leader of the Liberal Par ty says that we must vote now, when he wants them to vote, Mr. Speaker, is accusing-- (Interjection)-- Mr. Speaker, I think that if you will take the remarks in Hansard and if another member has also said it, does not mean that the Liberal Party has not said it.

The member of the Liberal Party who says that he is the defender of freedom and democracy and the parli amentary system in this Hous e, says that we must vote now when he says, regardless of the fact that he has introduced into tonight's debate an element of vitupera tion that the debate did not start with, and I think that the member of the Liberal Party who was not here, should have heard the Member from Morris; the Member from Morris indica ted that the system of private members' debates has been changed somewhat.

The reason that it was changed was not so that matters came to a vote - but I think that they do sometimes - but that - Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Liberal Party has a tremendous degree of impatience and I say to him, I only ask him to be tolerant to other members who may wish to get up and speak. I am one of those members, Mr. Speaker, I am one of those ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR . GREEN: The honourable member says which one of those things have been passed in three years ? I'll give my honourable member a proposition. If no private members' reso lutions have been passed in three years, I ... MR .

SPEAKER: Order please. MR . GREEN: . . . and resign my seat, and if one has been passed he will resign his seat. Now mind you, that's a pretty bad bet, Mr. Speaker, because it's like betting dollars

686 February 21, 1974 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLUTIONS (MR. GREEN cont'd) ..•• to doughnuts; his seat isn't worth that much, and he knows it, He knows it. But the fact is that the honourable member wishes to talk in hyperbole, wishes to talk -- (Interjec tion)-- well the peo ple of Wolseley almost told that to him, Mr. Speak er. And it is only, Mr. Speaker, only by the grace of the court of the Manitoba courts, of the Manitoba courts, that he is now sitting . . • MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Order please.

The Honourable - - I would like to suggest that the Honoura ble Leader of the Liberal Party has had his opportunity. Would he give the floor to someone else and extend the courtesy of listening. I should also like to ask the honour able members who are going to join in the debate to address the Chair, not to address remarks directly to other members, and that will help towards alleviating the heat that may be generated. The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'll attempt to continue in the vein in which I started if I'm not subjected to interruptions.

The fact is the Member from Morris introduced his resolution. -- (Interjection)-- Well Mr. Speaker, would you call the Honourable Member for st. Boniface to order? A MEMBER: Point of Order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party state his point of order? MR . ASP ER: It is both a point of order and a privilege of the House. Mr. Speaker, for three years, and for three weeks •.• MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Would the Honourable Member state his point of order, so I know what I'm listening to. MR . ASP ER: Mr.

Speaker, the point of order is that we have heard an objection from the House Leader of the NDP to comments being made while he's speaking. Now, Mr. Speaker normally that would be a valid objection, and a call by him to you, as he did, for a ruling. Mr. Speaker, the most guilty person in this House of insult from his seat, of catcall froin his seat, is that man, and Mr. Speaker I call on you to reprimand him. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. I would like to suggest I should like - order please. I'm allowing the time that's being interrupted.

I should like to suggest that people in glass houses do not throw stones. And I think that applies to all sides of the House. The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would be happy, Mr. Speaker, to be called to order any time the honour able member wishes to call me to order, and I will follow the rules of the House in that respect.

I think that those people who have been in the parliamentary system for some time will know, I think that those who are just coming into the parliamentary system will also know, that there is accepted within the system, a certain amount of by-p lay during the debate. Mr. Speaker, the honourable member calls it rudeness, and he now demonstrates it by his interruption -- (Interjection )- - Well, Mr. Speaker, I suggest to you that those honourable members who sit in the House continually and try to pay attention to what is being said, and participate in debate • . . MR . SPEAKER: Order please. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, I do ask that the honourable member who a few moments ago indicated that he wished to be called to order and that he not be permitted to interrupt if that be the rule, now at least lives up to his own words. MR . SPEAKER: Order please. MR. GREEN: I wish to continue my remarks. I do not wish to be interrupted by a supposed point of order. I go back again to the remarks, Mr. Speaker, that have been made ... MR. ASPER: Point of order. MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Very well the honourable leader state his point of order? MR .

ASP ER: The point of order is this: that if the House Leader in his capacity of House Lea der has .asked for a ruling or a kind of decorum, I accept that ruling and tell you that the Liberal Party will abide by the statement he just made on one condition - it is a two way street, MR . SPEAKER: Order please. I would like to indicate to the honourable member and to all honourable members, the rules are applied equally to all, and as I said orig inally, people in glass houses should oot throw Stones, and I think that applies to every side of this House and to every member.

The Honourable Minister of Mines and Resources.

February 21, 1974 687 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLU TIONS MR . GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I cannot accede to the honourable member's request, I have been in the House, Mr. Speaker, I have been in the House for some eight year s. I believe that in that capacity in the House for period of eight years, that I, I believe I have a rapport with some of the honourable members. I think that they probably know that I am interested in hearing what they have to say.

I think that I from time to time, they are interested in hearing what I have to say, and I think that that rapport has re sulted- and if I'm incorrect, I'll be called to order - that from time to time during a speech a member will make an interjection that that is an accepted practice in parliament, and provided it doesn't prevent a person from going on and carrying through with the flavour of his remarks, it is an accepted practice which I .cannot say that from this point on I will not involve myself in other peoples' speeches. Mr.

Speaker, but I say that there is such an involvement which can be accepted, and there is the kind of involvement which is not really demonstrating an interest in debate but which is a direct intention to prevent the debate from continuing , which members of the House learn to regard as either it occurrin g or not occurri ng. And if, Mr. Speaker, I felt that the members of the Chamber were re ally not accepted, the kind of interjections that I will make from time to tim e, I know that they would let me know about it, and now that the honourable member, the Leader of the Li beral Party - Mr.

Speaker, I know that the Leader of the Li beral Party feels that that kind of interjection is not satisfactory to him, and I will take that advice from him and try to act accordingly. I tell him that I do not -- (Interj ection)-- Well, Mr. Speaker , the honourable member has demonstrated at least on a dozen occasions tonight, that he is not prepared to acc ept that type of practice and well, Mr. Speaker, it continue s. . MR . SPEAKER: Or der please. I wonder if I could suggest that we get back to relevancy of the topic instead of the point of order. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR , ENNS: Mr.

Speaker , just simply on a matter of House privilege Mr, Speaker, in this ongoing debate, let the Official Opposition render its verdict to you, Sir, that we really believe, Sir , that you are by far and best and the indeed annointed person that will indicate to anybody in this Chamber when interjections are in order or not in order, or when a debate, as my own from time to time, strays from the given path, and that I just regi ster an objection when I see a deal being made between the Liberal Party and the New Democratic Pa rty about on what conditions they will debate in this House.

I have some re servations about that, Mr. Speaker. I leave my fate and the fate of the Official Opposition Party in your hands, Sir. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Mines, MR. GREEN: Well Mr. Speaker, I- you know the honourable member who says that there is nobody who does worse than this, I would venture him to go back into Hansard for the period of eight years that I have been here and see whether anything has compared to what has occurred in terms of interruption of a speech as has occurred in the last ten minutes. I invite him to do it , Mr.

Speaker, and I will repeat the wager that I made before that -- (Inter jection)- I will repeat the wager, sight unseen, let him find it, Let him find it, Mr, Speaker, and he • . . Because, Mr. Speaker , the honourable member entered the debate after two speeches had been made, and I indicated I don 't think that the debate started on a vituperative plane.

The Member for Morris indicated that a change had taken place with rega rd to private members' re solutions- a change which was designed to probably involve members in speaking rather than in coming to conclusi ons, although I think both things have occurr ed - maybe not to the extent that he would liked to have seen them occur , but I think that the practice that we have adopted with regard to private members' res olutions in the past two years, the practice that has been adopted by virtue of co-operation of members of the House, has re sulted in a better airing of private members' resolutions, and de spite the criticism that the Member for Morris made, I don't think that the criticism was vituperative, I think it was merely an attempt to try to have occur what he would like to occur.

He says that we have amended resolutions - that is correct. We have amended some, but we have had people talking on resolutions, some resolutions have been talked out, which is the normal practice in the House of Commons - very seldom does a private re solution come to a vote as it is insi sted upon by the Leader of the Liberal Party, it must come to a vote tonight. Other resolutions have been amended.

The honourable member says that he deliber ately worded his resolution - I don't know whether he said this tonight but certainly he gave the indication to me, and I don't think I'm revealing the confidence that he tried to make this resolution that it could not be amended, that it' s so bland as to permit only discussion and

688 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RESOLUTIONS (MR, GREEN cont'd) ...• no amendment. February 21, 1974 Mr. Speaker , I was tempted to rise to the challenge and amend the resolution but there is really no need to do so. The fact of considering the committee structur e of the House is a rea sonable suggestion.

The Minister of Finance has indicated to me: well how does the House consider something which is- consider ing the adoption of the motion is really the consideration Eventually I suppose we'll have to set up a rules committee to follow through and implement, but I tell the Honourable the Leader of the Liberal Party and the Member for Morris that we have no hesitation in passing the resolution as is, even though I rep eat the challenge that it's unamen dable. It was one which I would like to have gotten into to show you that it could be amended. And that was the flavor of the debate , Mr.

Speaker, until the Le ader of the Liberal Party presented the conclusion that somehow this, the members of this party in governmen t has somehow killed what was the committee system in the Manitoba legislature . Now, Mr. Speaker- and that we have done this disastrous thing- and my understanding is that this committee system which we are operating under , and which we have extended - and we'll get to that in a moment- is re ally a system that carries over from the previous Liberal and Conservative administrations. Well , Mr.

Speaker , I don't make this point from the point of view of showing that it's something terrific , because I admit that there can be changes made. I make it from the point of view of suggesting that there is no basis in fact, that this government took a system and suddenly made it a terrible dictator ial non- parliame ntary thing, that we have operated under the committee system that was previously established. On the whole we have had more committee meetings rather than less.

On the whole the committee meetings have resu lted in more discussion rather than less, and I'm not saying that that's because we dirl it, I'm saying perhaps because the opposition that is now in the House is more searching than we were perhaps when we were in opposition, but cer tainly the committee system and perhaps my honourable friend can be forgiven for not knowing it because he wasn't here, has operated more in the direction of having a str ong investigation of things that were before it than has occurred in the past. And ther efore, Mr.

Speake r , I merely reject out of hand the suggestions that somehow we came in here and turned a committee system into a dictator ial procedure which somehow was unknown prior to the advent of governm ent by the New Democratic Party. Mr. Speaker , I believe -- (Interjec tion)-- no, I would like to continue.

I am of the opinion that not only is the committee system in Manitoba more searching than it was in the years prior to coming into office of the New Democratic Party, but I believe that the committee system in the Provin ce of Manitoba is, if not unique, at least not widespread across this country; that ther e are very few Legislatures that take bills out of the House and put them into committee.

And the honourable member who says that we are dictators here - and you know, these things are all rela tive - there is no committee system where they take bills outside of the House into committee in most of the provinces in Canada; and the committee system in Ottawa - and I'm saying this only by comparison - is a system where there is a- if they have a majority, they don't have one now - but if there is a majority there would be more governmen t members on the committee than there would be opposition members, and that apparently is a change that the Leader of the Liberal Par ty will inaugurate if he ever comes into power; he will put more members of the opposition on the committee than there are governm ent members.

You know , I'm rea lly waiting - well of course ..• A MEMBER: Do n't worry. MR . GREEN: We will wait a long long time before we see that. (Lau ghter) But, Mr. Speaker , I want to - well, one senten ce, Mr. Speaker, I know that I'm going to be finished. There was a man who said of the parliamentary system, that it is the duty of the government to govern, it is the duty of parliament to say who governs. That wasn't Adolph Hitler , that wasn't Sid Green, that was , Mr. Speaker , not long ago, Mitchell Sharp, the firstMinister in line of the Federal Liberal Party.

Now I think that the honour able member should cogitate that. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister will - order please. Order please. The Honourable Minister will have eight minutes next time when this debate comes up. The hour of adjournment having arrived , the House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 10: 00 a. m. tomorrow morn ing.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-26
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 26.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	12be80ad9542c12b4682d5ffb1acaaeea1a30147

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