Manitoba Hansard — 21 July 1959 (Sitting 30, 26th Legislature, 1st Session)

26-1-30

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Assembly Of Manito,ba DEBATES and PRO GEE DINGS Speaker. The Honourable A. W. Harrison Volume ID No. 30 July 21, 1959 lst Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans� Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

IN DEX Tuesday, July 21, 1959 Committee Report, Private Bills, Nos. 43, 44, 64, 68, 77 Page 1159 Bill No. 94, Introduction, Mr. McLean •••• • -. • .. . • • • • • • .. . • • • • • • • • . . • • . . • • • • • • • 1159 Annoillicement re Royal Visit: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Roblin . • • • • • • • • • 1159 Questions 1161 Bill No. 35, re Treasury Act (Mr. Roblin), Third Reading: Mr. Molgat • • • . . • • • • • • 1161 Mr.

Groves • • • . • . • • • • • • • . • • • • • . . • • • • . . • • • . . • • • • • . • . • • • . • • • . • . . • • • • • . . 1163 Mr. ·paulley •..•.•• •. .. •• •. •• .•• . .• ...••••. ••• .•..•. _. ... .. ..... •• • . • • 1164 Adjourned Debate, re Implement Tax (Mr. Ridley): Mr. Molgat . . • • • • • . . • . • . • • • • • • 1165 Mr. Ridley • • . • • . • . • • • • . • • • • . ..• •• . • • • • . •• • . • • • . •• • • . • •• • . . • • • • . • . • •• . 1166 Adjourned Debates Minimum Wage (Mr. Harris), amendment (Mr. Groves): Mr. Orlikow • • . • • . • •• . • . 1166 Mr;· Campbell, Mr. Gray ••••• .•. •. ••.

" . . . • • • • • • • . • . • • • • • • . • • • . • . • . • • • 1167 Divisions: Amendment to Amendment, Amendment • • . • • . . . . • . • . . . • . • . • . 1168 School Grant Formula (Mr. Miller): Mr. Schreyer .......... .... .. . : .. . • .. . • • . • . . 1168 Deficiency Payments (Mr. Schreyer), amendment (Mr. Alexander): Mr. Orlikow .. . 1169 Mr. Baizley, Mr. Orlikow, Mr. Hutton .. .. • • .. . . .. ... ... • . • • .. .. .. .. .. 1172 Mr. McKellar • • • • • • • • . • . • . • . • . • • • . . • • • . . • . • • • • • • . . . • . • . • • • • . • • • • • • . . • 1177 Permanent Speaker (Mr. Campbell), amendment (Mr.

Lissaman): Mr. Paulley • . • • 1177 Mr. Gray, Mr. Groves • .• . • . . . • • . . . . .• . • •• . . •• •• .. •• .• • • .• .• .• • • • . • • . 1180 Mr. Desjardins, Mr. Groves, Mr. Roblin, Mr. Campbell . • •• . . • •• • • • •• • 1182 Second Readings Bill 79, re Greyhound Racing (Mr. Hillhouse): Mr. Baizley • . . • • • • • • • • • • • • • .. • • • . 1182 Mr. Hawryluk • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • . • • . • . • • • • • • • • . . • • • • • • • . . • • • • • • • • • • • • • 1183 Mr. Schreyer, Mr. Gray, Mr. Scarth, Mr. Alexander ..... .... .. ..... ... 1185 Mr.

Hillhouse • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • . • • • .. • • • • • • • • • • . • • • • • • • • • • • • . • • • • . • • • 1186 Division • • • . • . • • . • . . • • • • • . • • . • • • • • • • • • . . • • • . • . • • . . . • . • • • • . • • • . . • • • • . 1186 Bill 76, re School Trustees Association (Mr. Lissaman) .. . .. .. .. ... ... . ..... .. .. · 1187 Bill 85, re Town of Gimli (Mr. Stanes): Mr. Hillhouse, Mr. Jobnson(Gimli) Mr.Stanes 1187 Bill 72, re l\iargarine (Mr. Seaborn) • • • • • . • • • • • . • • • • • • . • • • • • • • • • . . . • • • • . • . • • • . . 1187 Mr.

Shewman, Amendment • . .• . • •• • • •• •• •• • • •• •.• • • • •• . • .• • • . . •. .• •. •• 1191 Mr. Gray, Mr. Miller •••••. •• •••••••• .••• •••• •.• ••• • •••• :. .. .. ... .. .. 1192 Division on Amendment ...• ... •..••.•..• ..••..•.•• ..• •.. ...... .... .. .. 1193 Committee of Supply Municipal Affairs, Administration: Mr._Paulley • •• •• • • •• • .• •• • • •• •• • • • .. . • •• .. • 1194 :Mr. Campbell . • • • • • • • • • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • . • • • • • • • • • • . • • • . • • • . • • • . . • • 1197 Mr.

Orlikow ••• • , •• •••• •• ••.• .• •. •. • ; . • . • • • • . . • • • • . • . • . • • • • • • . • • • • • • • 1201 Mr. Paulley, Mr. Campbell, l\'lr. Thompson .. ....... : • • .. .. .. • • • .. • • • • • 1203 Mr. Roblin . . • • • • • • • • • • . . • • • • • . • • • • • • • • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • . . • . • • • • • . • • • • 1204 · Mr. Campbell . . • • • • . • • • • . • • • • • • • • • • . . • • • • • • • . • • • • • • • . • • • . • • • . • . • • • • • 1206 Mr. Prefontaine, Mr. Thompson .. ... . .. ... .. .. ... . . .. .. .. ....... ·• • .. • . 1208 Mr. Paulley, Mr.

Thompson .. .. .• .. ... .. • .. . .. ..... ... .... ... .. .. ... 1209· Mr. Prefontaine • • • • • . • • • • • • . • • . . • • • • • . • • • • • . • • • • • • • • • • • • . • • • • • • • • ... • • • 1211 Estimates ... ........ . .... ... ... . .. .. . .. .... ... .. ... .. ... . . ..... ..... 1212

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Tuesday, July 2lst, 1959 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports of Standing and Select Committees MR. R. G. SMELLIE (Birtle-Russell): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the second part of a Select Standing Committee on Private Bills standing orders, printing and library. MR. CLERK: The Select Standing Committee on Private Bills standing orders, printing and library beg leave to present the following as their second report. Your Committee has con sidered Bills No. 43,

an Act to Incorporate Council 1107; No. 44,

an Act to Incorporate the Wildewood Club; No, 64,

an Act to Incorporate Builders Trust; No. 68,

an Act to Incorporate Greater Winnipeg Society for Christian Education; No. 69,

an Act to incorporate Grand Chap·�er of Manitoba, Order of the Eastern Star; No. 77,

an Act respecting Guaranty Trust Company and the Western Trust Company, and has agreed to report the same without amendments. Your Committee recommends that the times for receiving the reports of the Committee of Private Bills be extended to the 28th day of July 1959, all of which is respectfully submitted. · MR. SMELLIE: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Hamiota, that the report be received. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Notice of Motion. MR. SMELLIE: I would move, seconded by the Honourable Member for St.

James, that the time for receiving the Report of the Committee of Private Bills be extended to the 28th day of July, 1959. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Introduction of Bills. HON. STEWART E. MCLEAN (Minister of Education) (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture, that leave be given to introduce Bill No. 94,

an Act to amend The Public Schools Act (3), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Before the Orders of the Day, I received a memorandum from Mr. Der ek Bedson, which I'm sure that the members of the legislature would like to hear, and I will read the same. "Members will have received invitations in connection with the presentation of themselves and their wives to Her Majesty the Queen and Prince Philip next Friday afternoon, July 24th.

Parking space has been arranged for members' cars behind the old revenue building on Kennedy Street. The invitation will serve to identify those who use this space. Members should walk from the parking area to enter the Legislative Buildings by the South door. Arrange ments have been made for members' children, six years of age and over to be placed in special enclosures onto the North entrance of the building where the ceremony will take place. The in vitations will identify those whose children may use the enclosure.

Lady members of the Canad ian Legion will be in attendance to look after the children while their parents enter the building in preparation for the presentation to the Queen and Prince Philip. Any members and their families who wish to see the departure ceremony for the Queen and Prince Philip may take ad vantage of the space for distinguished visitors which have been kept at the RCAF Station in St. James. MLA's and their families should arrive at the airport before 9:00 A. M. on Saturday, July 25th." Orders of the Day. MR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Leader of the Opposition) (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker, perhaps this would be an appropriate time for us to get a little further information regarding the arrangements in connection with Her Majesty's visit. I notice, if I heard the memo correctly, that while MLA1s will have parking space over at the old revenue building site, that we're expected to enter by the South door.

Now, it's perfectly all right for we members of the legislature, I'm sure, and I certainly don't mind that at all -- but I have found from previous experience that the ladies, when they get dressed for occasions of this kind, I wouldn't say find it difficult to walk -- but July 2lst, 1959 Page 1159

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd. ) .•.. prefer not to walk. I'm sure that it would be helpful to the ladies and wives of the members, if the same card would entitle them to drive in by some method, de posit the ladies at the South door and then do their parking on the lot. Because I have found on previous occasions that the mounties who -- or other officers, who are on duty that day, have to be pretty firm about the orders that they have, and that while some of us may be well enough acquainted with the most of the mounties, a lot of the members would have difficulty in driving through these grounds on that day.

Now, I was just wonaering if it couldn't be possible for us to -- for the government to make arrangements whereby, by the use of that same invitation or some other identification, that the members could drive through this part of the grounds and de posit the lady members of the party. And then the other question that I would like to ask at the same time, Mr. Speaker -- per haps this has already been mention ed, I haven't heard it if it has -- is where are the presenta tions to take place. Is it in this Chamber or out at the front?

And the other question that I think we might as well clear up at the same time is, what times are we going to sit. Do we sit all day Thursday, or do we sit part of the day, or what are the arrangements about sitting? And I, of cvurse, assume that we are not sitting at all on Friday or Saturday. Those particular questions, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to have answered it it can be permitted at this time. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, if you will allow me to respond to the questions raised -- I'd like to say first of all that I've asked Mr.

Currie to get in touch with the Whips of the various parties to arrange for himself or some other knowledgable person, to attend; have a caucus of the members of the various parties, to answer any questions they might have because I know there are a multitude of them that occur to you that are not included in the written table of procedure that is being distributed just as soon as -- it will probably be out today. Bu t I did want Mr. Currie to be available to advise members on any point that might not be certain and a number of them have been raised by the Leader of the Opposition.

I expect he will be getting in touch with the various Whips very soon -- today, I trust -- to deal with any matters that may arise. Now regarding the points that have been raised. I quite see the suggestion made by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition and I presume that there'll be no -- I can see offhand no difficulty in that, and Mr. Currie will advise on that when he meets with the groups. The second one in connection with the -I think it was the procedure once you get here and where the presentations are to be made, was stated by myself previously, but I have no objection in stating it again.

The procedure will be that members and guests who are being invited at this particu lar time, which includes federal members of parliament for Manitoba, will enter the South door and wi.11 take their places in the East corridor. At the bottom of the East Corridor will be a cloakroom. Chairs will be placed in the corridors because there might be, or undoubtedly will be some wait and we don't -- these things have a tendency not to go on schedule, and might be a little bit late -- so chairs will be placed in the corridors for as many as possible to be seated during that waiting period.

And there will be ushers there who will line people up in the correct order. They will then proceed -- when Her Majesty arrives she will inspect the guard of honour and take her place on the dais that has been built on the steps; and members will then proceed through the East of the three doors from the front of the building by Her Majesty, be introduced to herself and the Prince, pass by the front of them and return through the West of the three doors into the building, and then be at liberty to do whatever they plan to do after that. Now, that is in the case of good weather.

If unfortunately we should have a bad rainy spell at this time, the presentations wi.11 take place in the Chamber and -- the proceedings up to that point will be much the same except instead of going out at the front, we will come into the Cham ber here and be introduced in that manner. But we'll be prepared for either method depending on the weather. Regarding the sittings of the House, it was my thought that we would sit as usual except for Friday would be a completely non-sitting day. Those are, I think, were the points that were raised and that is the information that I can give at the present time.

But I want to make it clear that we would welcome any suggestions that anyone has for improving the procedure that's been worked up, and that Mr. Currie will attend and answer any questions and deal with any suggest- ions. MR. G. MOLGAT (St. Rose): Mr. Speaker, if I may, just to keep Mr. Currie's record Page 1160 July 21st, 1959

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd.) ••.. clear -- some one was in touch with me -- with our group just be fore opening of the session this afternoon, on behalf of Mr. Currie. MR. ROBLIN: Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. P. WAGNER (Fisher): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Public Works, whether he has received the report .?n the study of PFRA in Dennis Lake, Fish Lake and Lumsden area; or i.f he hasn't, has he any expectations how soon will it come? HON. ERRICK F. WILLIS, Q. C. (Minister of Agriculture and Immigration) (Turtle Mount ain): I inquired in regard to it, Mr.

Speaker, I think about two days ago -- it was not then ready. But they informed me that they would let me know and let me have it as soon as it was available. MR. J. M. HAWRYLUK (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day could I address a question to the Minister of Education? . . . . • . Could he tell us anything in regard to those examination papers. What the investigations have brought about -- of the Grade XII pap ers of last week? MR. MCLEAN: Mr.

Speaker, as I reported to the House the matter has been placed in the' hands of the police for investigation with the information which we had at that time.

And a re port yesterday afternoon indicated that they were prepared -- in fact -- well, now, I shouldn't say whether they had actually laid a charge or were about to lay a charge of theft against one person who is alleged to have stolen the examination paper from the printing firm and acted in distributing i.t to students, and also to others who were, as it were, alleged to have been accom plices in this endeavour -- not in the, as I understand it, the original theft -- but rather in the distribution of it to a number of students. Those matters, that is the charges, are being dealt with by the police.

My information is that the first person is a juvenile and will have to be dealt with as a juvenile; that the other two are over the age of the jurisdiction of the Juvenile Court and will be dealt with as adults. But I haven't seen any actual. report on that aspect. We are pursuing the other aspect of it, namely the number of students who may have come into possess ion of these papers, because they, of course, will be required to re�write examinations in those subjects. But our investigation on that particular score is not completed. MR . HAWRYLUK: Just a further question, Sir.

The people involved, were some of the students involved, Sir? Some students involved, the juvenile or the other two that were selling the papers? MR. MCLEAN: I cannot -- certainly the original person who is alleged to hav� committed the theft, was not a student. I do not believe that the other two are students, but I shouldn't like to say too definitely on that point. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Adjourned debate on the proposed motion ... MR. WAGNER: I'd like to make a correction. I'm just following through the Hansard, but I didn't read it up to the end.

When I was speaking on the dust I said, "you have no business opening the door or the dust is going to come right into the hospital, " and it reads, "the doctor wonld come right into the hospital. " MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Hon ourable the First Minister for third reading of Bill No. 35. The Honourable Member for St. Rose. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I was very interested in Bill 35 when it was first introduced by the First Minister, but I was even more Interested by the comments which he made on closing the debate on second reading.

At that time the First Minister took on tones of injured innocence and he told us at least six times during the course of the speech that all he wanted to be was ab solutely fair and squ3re, and open, make sure that everybody understood exactly what was what, and had no intention of hiding anything and so on and so on. This recurred constantly through the speech. And it seemed to me at that time that he was protesting his innocence a little too strongly. On rereading his speech and going into it carefully, I must say that I have had that suspicion confirmed.

Because it seems to me that he failed to deal with the basic item which this change -- which Bill 35 would change in the Treasury Act. He spoke at great length about what we did when we were in office, about how we had proceeded to take money out of these re serves; and the way it fits into his general speech, it would almost sound as i.f we had not been open in our .actions, and as i.f we had attempted to do something underhanded. Well, the Honourable July 21st, 1959 Page 1161

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd.) •..• Member for Selkirk dealt with that in his speech the other day and g� e exactly what had been said during the budget debate when we did take this action. And there �as certainly nothing underhanded. The Provincial Treasurer at that time had said exactly what the government intended to do, and there was nothing that either the members of the House .''' or the public was not informed about. There was no attempt whatever to hide anything.

Now the First Minister in his reply tried to indicate that !lli that this Bill would do was allow the government to use any money left over from last year for this year's expenditures. And he gave us the example at that tirrie, and I have it here in Hansard -- of Mr. DuH Roblin winding up in 1959 with $200. in his pockets -- and it would be ridiculous for him not to use it in January for whatever expenditure he had. He went on to say that in the case of companies they do the same thing -- that they proceed to use their surplus. But, Mr.

Speaker, it seems to me that the situ ation is not quite as simple as the First Minister attempted to indicate in that speech, because we have to differentiate here between two principles - The first one is the use of accumulated funds which is the part that the First Minister dealt with; but there's another one which is in volved in this Bill, in that pretending that accumulated funds are current income and that's a very diff erent thing from what the First Minister was replying to. When we look at Bill 35 we find that

Section (

A) merely says that the excess may be car ried in the revenue division of the consolidated fund as revenue surplus, which as far as I'm con cerned isn't too Serious. If the First Minister wishes to transfer last year's revenue into reven ue surplus and clearly labelled as such -- I for one would not have any major objection to it. I can foresee some difficulties in governments using accumulated surpl'ls for current expendi ture . If it is current expenditure of a recurring type I think all the government is doing is post poning the time when it will have to tax for recurring current expense.

If a non-recurring cur rent expense then certainly I would have no objection whatever to the use of accumulated funds. Let us say for example a catastrophe such as the 1950 flood. If the Government had reserves at that time and this was to be a one-shot expense, there certainly would be no objection to using the reserves. But I think that when its for recurring current expenditures that the Government should be careful about using past surpluses; that it would be better to use past surpluses for the reduction of debt.

However, this is not in my opinion the major item, and not the most im portant thing that we find in Bill 35. It's the second part which is important and of an entirely different nature. There the Bill p:r-oposes that the Treasurer may at any time order that the excess be carried in the revenue division of the consolidated fund as re:venue of any subsequent fiscal year. Mr. Speaker I submit that that is bad accounting; that it's an attempt to hide from the public of Manitoba exactly what is going on in the finances of the Province.

Let's go back to the example that the First Minister gave us when he was speaking -- and he referred to Duff Roblin winding up the end of the year 1959 with $200. in his pocket. Well so he starts off 1960 with /--. $200. which he has accumulated from the previous year. Will DuH Roblin proceed to report that.$200. the following year as income on his income tax? I submit not.

He will admit he's got the $200., he may use it for whatever purposes he wants, it's his money -- but I'm certain that he will not submit it as revenue in 1960 -- and certainly will not be reported as income tax during the year 1960. -It can't be revenue both in 1959 and 1960. The same thing applies to com panies. In fact the First Minister himself in his statement admitted that because he said in the case of companies what do they do with their earned surplus; they put it into earned surplus reserve that is available for any purpose of that company either current or capital.

But the point is it's current or earned surplus reserVe; it's not just simply intercurrent revenue. They don't proceed and use this year's income and make it appear the following year in the profit and loss statement. The profit and loss statement of each year stand on its own as a reflection of the operations of that year. That is exactly what we are asking the Government to continue to do in the Province of Manitoba, and. that is, that any revenue collected in one year be clearly understood to be revenue for that year.

The following year if they want to use it for current purposes -- as I said before I would have some reservations, but not overwhelming reservations, depending on what it was -- but certainly if they wanted to use it, the least that should be done is that it should be carried forward as revenue surplus, and not simply as revenue; because if its carried as revenue then it would indicate a wrong picture for that particular year. Now it seems to me that the point that the Leader of the Opposition and the .Member from Page 1162 July 21st, 1959

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd.) .•.. Selkirk brought up is very well taken - that in this particular case the First Minister has to reconcile the statement that he gave us in March, with the laws as they stand now under the Treasury Act. Now I know the First Minister will tell us when he replies, as he told us then, that let me see what was his statement at the time - "the Govern ment is introducing -- he's saying that we were suggesting that the Government was introducing this piece of legislation because it has to.

He proceeded to say "I would say that nothing has been done in respect to the reserves of this Province that is not legal, because no action is being taken on this matter until the House deals with i.t. " -- and I agree he had taken no action. But, Mr. Speaker, he has put this forward before the Members of this House, and'as such before the people of Manitoba; and he has indicated thereby in the details of estimated revenue which he gave us in March, an entirely different picture from the one that really obtains because of the use of this legal device.

And if the First Minister doesn't agree with me, which I presume he won't, I would like hi.Di to answer this question. Is it not correct that except for this legal de vice, which we now find in Bill 35, the estimated revenue and expenditure, which he presented at the session in March, would have shown a deficit? It seems to me that there is no answer to that, except 'yes. 1 It would have been a deficit had he not used that particular legal device which was not at that time intended, certainly under The Treasury Act, and which could not be done until this particular Bill 35 passes. It seems to me, Mr.

Speaker, that in spite of the ardent protestations of my honourable friend the First Minister, that this was not quite as square and aboveboard as he indicated; because what he is trying to do by the second

section of Bill 35, ls to show that last year's revenue is this year's revenue. And I submit that it isn't - it can only be revenue once. If he wants to use it fine, but let's. indicate clearly what it is. I must say, Mr. Speaker, that I'm surprised at my honourable friend. He's barely bern in power one year and already he's trying to fix the books to suit himself; to show a different picture to the people of Manitoba than the one which really exists. He is trying to show things which are not; and that ls the basis of our argument, that's the basis of our discussion during the campaign which we went through.

I know my honourable friend the Leader of the CCF Party does not like to discuss political campaigns again in this House. Well I have no particular ob jections to it, after all we are all here 57 politicians and we got elected here during the cam paign. I see no objections to discussing it. But there was the basis of our argument -- that you cannot consider the profit that you made last year iil the business a:s profit this year; that a private individual does not consider.last year's income as income again this year; and that the Government should not consider a surplus last year as income this year.

It should be clearly labelled as a revenue surplus or a surplus of some kind -- call i.t what they will -- but let us not consider it as straight revenue. I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that this Bill should be amended. The first portion

Section (A), I would have no objection to; but I would ask the First Minister and his colleagues to care fully reconsider

Section B (

i) because that is the one which is going to change completely the procedure that has been followed in the past. And I ask him to do that on the basis of a straight for'Ward system of accounting on beha:lf of the people of Manitoba, so that there be no confusion as to when revenue has been received ·and exactly in what year it belongs. MR. GROVES (st. Vital): Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say one thing in connection with the debate on this Bill, and that has to do with the propriety of what this measure proposes to do. I have before me a book called "Municipal and Governmental Accounting" by Carl H.

Chatters, A. B. LL. B. Professor of Municipal Administration and Finance, Northwestern Uni versity; and Irving Tenner, M. B, A. Ph.D. C. P.A., Accounting and Fiscal Consultant Lectur er in Governmental Accounting; Northwestern University and Roosevelt College of Chicago. This is a book, one of Prentice Hall's Accounting series which was edited by H. H. Finney, which ls a well know Accounting Author in both United states and Canada.

This book is a text in I would say, all Universities in the United states, that teach Municipal Accounting and Govern ment Finance, and is in my opinion the authority for those schools in Canada that do teach this subject. There ls not to my knowledge. any recognized Canadian Text dealing as fully with this subject as this text does. I would like to read the first line from the preface "This book is intended to apply to State · Governments and to local government including countries, townships, cities and villages, school districts and special districts.

The book is practical in nature because it is based on the July 2lst, 1959 Page 1163

(Mr. Groves, cont'd.) .... experience of the author on contact with hundreds of officials through out the United States and Canada, and on the study of hundreds of public reports. It is consis tent with the principles established by the National Committee on Municipal Accounting and the Municipal Finance Officers' Association. That the reasons for recommending these particular principles and procedures are also given ... 11 and then it goes on to deal with other matters that are of no concern to the point under discussion.

I would like to read then from Page 33 of this book dealing with the subject of budgetting under a sub:...l;ieading called "Revenue Estl.mates. 11 "The amount of revenue which will accrue or will be received during the year must be kept in mind. Accord\ngly even before the department heads begin to p;repare their estimates the Fi nance Officer will estimate the amount of revenues which will be' ayailable. Figure 6 illustrates a statement of actual and estimated general fund revenue -- in ord� to save space only a few revenues have been listed.

Then the next paragraph "If the governm'ent unit expects to have at the end 'of the year an unappropriated surplus which can be converted foto cash, and this surplus is not set aside as the reserve, the surplus may .be taken into account in estimating the resourc es available to finance expenditures of the coming year. This is true even though the surplus comes from past year's revenue, it is important in this connection to present a balance sheet as of the close of the current year" -- and then it goes on.

But I just wanted to make that point that in the recoguized authority in the schools that teach this subject that there's nothing impro per in doing what this Bill proposes to do. MR. MOLGAT:' Would the honourable member permit a question? Does that book also say that the surplus from the past should be brought into the following year as a current item and not as a ..... . MR. GROVES: Well, that's what it said .... MR. MOLGAT: •..... and labelled as a current income? MR.

GROVES: Well, I'll read it again for the benefit of the Honourable Member "The surplus may be taken into account in estimating the resources available to finance expenditures of the coming year. This is true even though the surplus comes from past year's revenue. 11 MR. MOLGAT: Would the honourable member permit another question? Would he also tell the House why it is that the Federal Government does not follow that procedure, and follows the one that has been followed here in the past in Manitoba? MR . GROVES: Well, I can't speak for the Federal Government I'm afraid, Mr. Speaker. MR. A.

R PAULLEY (Leader of the CCF) (Radisson): I think possibly I should make a comment or two as this Bill has been brought up again for debate on third reading. As you well know Mr. Speaker, on second reading I outlined the stand of our party in opposition to the prin ciple of this Bill. I might say that no argument that has come from across the other side of the House, either in the debate on second reading or in consideration of the Bill in Law Amendments Committee, has altered our opinion one iota. I must say this that I disagree with my honourable friend from St.

Rose, when he said that we are 57 politicians sitting in this Chamber. I think, Sir, that it is true that during election time we may be politicians, but once having been elected we should consider ourselves as being truly representatives of all of the peoples of the Province of Manitoba, divorce ourselves a little bit to the usual conception of the word 'politician. 1 Now then I .. ... MR. MOLGAT: Would the honourable member permit a question? I would have to ask him for his definition of 'politician.' Apparently, it diff ers from mine. MR. PAULLEY: Well there may be diff erences -- as a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, there are considerable diff erences between the Honourable Member from St. Rose and myself on many matters. However, we have objected to the principle contained in this, generally speaking, based on the outline of revenues as produced by the Honourable the Provincial Treas urer at the last session of the legislature, where it showed in the detailed estimates of revenue that we started out with a surplus in respect of the current year 1958-'59 of some Three Million Six Thousands of Dollars and finished up with a surplus of Three Million Four.

In other words in my reading of figures a deficit of Two Hundred Thousand Dollars. However, our main point then, Mr. Speaker, and our main point now is, that particularly with the high interest rates which we have to borrow as monies for any capital expenditure of the Province, and which our municipalities and school boards have to pay in respect of interest, that this surplus of last year if not used for revenue reserve for the province itself, could form a firm foundation of a Page 1164 July 2lst, 1959

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd.) .... pool to supply needed capital to our municipalities and to our school boards. In the session so far we have had to pass amendments to a considerable number of bills dealing with our municipal and school board authorities where we had to raise the ceiling permissible for payment of interest. Even some of the bills, Mr. Speaker, that were introduc ed for the first time at this present session had to have amendments in committee to take care of a fluctuating situation in respect of interest rates.

Those were the main reasons that we op posed this particular bill, and I may say that electioneering and electioni.tis aside, our object ions are based on those principles. What happened between my honourable friends across the House and my.friends to the right doesn't make any difference to me. They can carry on the past election as long as they like, but as far as we of our group is concerned, Mr.

Speaker, we're still convinced that in principle this is wrong and that our other uses, other than current revenue for the surpluses of last year and if there are surpluses this year, it likewise could go into the fund for the creation of a pool, for low interest rates, not only to municipalities and school boards but possibly for the future for the government itself. MB. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Caril lon that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE HON.

GEO, JOHNSON, M.D. (Minister of Health and Public Welfare) (Gimli): Mr. Speak er, I again ask that this matter stand until Law Amendments on Thursday. MB. SPEAKER: Order stand. Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honour able Member for Pembina. The Honourable Member for St. John's -- St. Rose, rather. MB. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, although this is stood once again, in view of the fact I have already spoken this afternoon, I would beg the indulgence of the House to allow this to stand to day. MB.

SPEAKER: I might point out to the honourable member that this is the third time it's stood and according to our rules it disappears from the Order Paper if it ...•. MB. MOLGAT: Well if there are objections to it, Mr. Speaker, I can't speak. Very well. I didn't really want to pick on my honourable friend the First Minister twice in the same day, Mr, Speaker, which is really the reason I wanted to have this adjourned again. Because I can only see in this -- the final stage of this resolution the hand of my hono-arable friend.

As I said when I was speaking on the amendment, the Honourable Member for Morris certainly got the situation completely confused and now we're back right where we started from. It seems to me that the First Minister is simply not letting his backbenchers provide any criticism what ever of the Federal Government. If there is a resolution comes on here which is in the least way critical of Ottawa, well then, immediately it's got to be squashed, it's gotta be changed, it's gotta be amended and no one can be allowed to say anything opposed to the Ottawa govern ment. Now it seems to me, Mr.

Speaker, that what we are asking for in the amenaments that we had submitted was a perfectly logical and sensible request, because it was the result of action that had been taken in Ottawa on the anti-dumping regulation, and they have been used in Manitoba against the interests of the agricultural people of this province. They have been used in a most unfair fashion, the law as it reads now on the anti-dumping is simply one of the most restricted anti-import laws that could have been passed by any government. It leaves the whole thing in the hands of the administrators.

The customs people down at our borders are instructed according to a certain set of rules as to how they must evaluate equipment coming in; it's done in an arbitrary fashion and the results are most unfortunate and most difficult for a number of the people on the farms of the Province of Manitoba. All we are asking was that the original intent of the law exempting farm equipment from duty and sales tax be lived up to. And I sub mit that under the present basis the intent of that law has been changed.

The anti-dumping regu lations have made it a completely different law, so that today on a fair number of the agricultur al implements imported in this province, there is a sales tax and a duty levied, but it was not intended that that should be in the first place. I commend the Honourable Member for Pembina in proposing this resolution in the first place. I know he had difficulties in his own constituency last winter, and I believe there were reasonably well resolved eventually but they can come up again anytime. The only purpose of our amendment was to make this cover more cases. I July 21st, 1959 Page 1165

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd.) •..• 'believe that it's true that in his own constituency last year there were two cases only, that actually came up on this matter of sn:owplowing, but there are many more that came up under other imports of farm products, and I suggest that we would be much better off to make this resolution a more complete one, follow the am·endment that has been pas sed.

Nevertheless as I say the First Minister apparently will not permit any criticism of any thing done by Ottawa, so we are now in the position where we -- the only other choice - to vote on this resolution instead of voting on one that would have been of value to the people on the farms in the Province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. M. E. RIDLEY (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, in the afternoon that the First Minister addressed the Chamber in regards to the tax rental agreements, I was not here myself that af ternoon and I don't think the Honourable Member from St.

Rose c;ould have been here either, or he wouldn't eiay what he has just said in rega :i;d to the Federal Government and the First Mini ster. Now in regard to the amendment, I've had no occasion of anyone to speak to me on the anti-dumping program that is going on. It can be weighed up in two ways. If you allowed all of this to come into the Province-of Manitoba, then those farmers that are here now that have sec ond hand tractors to trade in to a dealer, what would become of the price of them? That's one question I ask you.

If you have a tractor to trade in to a dealer and if all this stuff was dumped in from United States, then what would become the price of that tractor which you had to trade in to a dealer. The Honourable Member from St. Rose being in the implement business I under stand, he should know that. Now this resolution is very simple. You all know what it's all about -- and with the opposi tion last night in regards to keeping our roads open for school districts - I'm surprised that they delayed it as long as they have, because this is very important to all of the Province of Manitoba.

I ask support for the resolution. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Logan; and the proposed motion in amendment thereto by the Honourable Member for St. Vital; and proposed motion in amendment to the amendment by the Honourable Member for Brokenhead. The Honourable Member for st. John's. MR. D. ORLIKOW (St. John's): Mr. Speaker, this resolution has now been discussed on a number of occasions. When we proposed this resolution we did it after a good deal of thought.

We proposed, that the matter be discussed on a national basis because we recognized that there is very serious difficulty in the increasing of minimum wages by any one province, b�cause employers who have to pay higher wages and employers in another province might be put under some very adverse conditions. And this is the reason why we moved the motion as we did origi nally. Now the amendment which was moved by the Honourable Member for St.

Vital rejected the whole ,idea of an approach on a national basis, which we recognized would take time, and propose simply that vre ask the Minimum Wage Board to consider the minimum wage rates iri this province. Our amendment has the idea that the -- we send it to the Minimum Wage Board that was -- we asked them to give consideration to assuring a reasonable and adequate standard of living for all Manitoba workers. Now, Mr. Speaker, this problem is much more important to the people of Manitoba than many people in this House probably realize.

The cost of living has gone up from the base fig ure of one hundred in 1949 according to the Dominion Bureau of Statistics as reported in the last issue of the Labour Gazette which is on file in the Provincial Library -- the cost of living has now risen to one hundred and twenty-five. In other words we have an increase in the cost of living of 25% in the last ten years. Certainly this would indicate the necessity for an early and upward revision of the minimum_ wage rates.

Cost of living as estimated by competent welfare agencies also would indicate that the present 60� an hour minimum wage for men is completely unrealistic; and that it is completely impossible to maintain any kind of decent standard of liv ing at that kind of rate. Figures prepared by the City of Winnipeg Public Welfare Department, f or a family of four, as of March the lst, 1959, and their rates are not very high, Mr.

Speaker, and I think that they would not vary very much from the rates which the Provincial Department has calculated as its basis for payment of welfare assistance, shown as follows: Food allowance Page 1166 July 21st, 1959

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd.) .... for a family of four $82. 82 a month; clothing allowance $20. 00 a month;· rent $55. 00; fuel $11. 50; lights and hot water $4. 00; this gives you a base figure, Mr. Speaker, of $173. 32 a month for a family of four,. Now no allowance has been made in these figures for cost of hospitalization, for the cost of medical services, for the cost of education, for recreation or any other of the needs of the people. I present these figures, Mr. Speaker, only to show how inadequate, how totally inadequate the 60\! an hour figure which our present minimum wage now provides.

And I suggest to the members, Mr. Speaker, that this fi.gure is very similar to the cost of living in any other part of the province. As a matter of fact there are many areas where the cost of food would be substantially higher than it is in the Greater Winnipeg area. The only figure which might be lower in some areas is the rent figure of $55. 00 which I have given. Now, in case members doubt -- in case members wonder how many of the people of Mani toba are in the low income figures, I have with me, Mr.

Speaker, the publication issued by the Department of National Revenue, Taxation Division, called "Taxation Statistics" and it gives the figures for the last year in which incomes are available; and if you turn to page 64, it gives you the figures for the Province of Manitoba, and you will see Mr. Speaker, that we have 1, 240 people in the Province of Manitoba who have an income of lesss than $1, OOO. a year. How they live I don't know .. I don't think they live, I think they really only exist. We have over 38, OOO people in this province who earn between $1, OOO. and $2, OOO.

We have over 52, OOO who earn between 3 and $4, OOO. This, Mr. Speaker, brings the total earning less than $4, OOO. a year of 139, 750, or 75% of all the people in this province who are in receipt of incomes in this pro vince. So, Mr. Speaker, we in this group suggest that it's of the utmost importance that the in t;iome of the people in this province be raised and we can think of no better -- no more deserving people than those people who are unfortunate enough to be earning the minimum rates which are permissible in this province. And therefore, Mr.

Speaker, we are urging this House, to sup port a resolution which would ask the Minimum Wage Board to not only study the matter, but to assure that a reasonable and adequate standard of living for all Manitoba workers be provi\lf!Br Mr. Speaker put the question. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, as this is going to a vote now, I would like to make a very brief statement with regard to my position on it, and I think it would not be out of order if I mention very briefly the amendment to the amendment, the amendment and the resolution. I can do that without taking much time. Because, Mr.

Speaker, I propose to vote against all three inasmuch as I think that the amendment to the amendment is something that we should not do, it being not only an instruction to the board as I see it, but that it's actually instructing them to increase the rates. I think we should not do that. I'm therefore opposed to that amendment · to the amendment in principle.

On the next one, if you will allow me to make my submission regarding it now, I won't need to speak again, because in the next one I feel that it's completely j.noperative and means nothing, because that is exactly what the board will be doing anyway, so j see no use whatever of supporting that amendment. And so far as the main resolution is con cerned, I'm not in favour of the principle that is enunciated there. MR. M. A, GRAY (Illkster): Mr.

Speaker, I did not intend to say anything, I just wanted to remind the last speaker that the same argument I remember was used when the minimum wage was very much lower than the amount mentioned in the original resolution.

I already mentioned in this House that during the depression years, I think it was 1934 or '35, the legis lature, or the Department of Labour, declared a minimum wage of 25\! an hour for those un employed who get casual jobs, and immediately this was announced, or the Order-in-Council passed, I do not remember whether it came before the House of not, 25\! an hour became the maximum wage with many. This minimum wage resolution is for the protection of those em ployees who take advantage of the legal wage they are to be paid. It does not apply to those many of them who pay even higher wages than this.

Now mechanics get bigger wages than $1. 25 an hour and they utilize, whether we know it or not, whether it's legal or not. In other words if they get a mechanical job, there's nothing to prevent them from getting a few labourers to help out the mechanics who knows the job. So in other words instead of a plumbing job to have more plumbers, maybe one, and three labourers. With the high cost of living as already stated now, with the unsettled weather conditions where many of the labourers must leave their job in July 21st, 1959 Page 1167

(Mr. Gray, cont'd. i . .. . case of rain and are not being paid; with the layoff in the winters of many of the labourers, like those who work on the streets, in the sewage disposals, on the roads. I think that $1. 25, is the amount that would be the most minimum that they could exist during the year as I said with the loss of time, because they are not working steady; and I don't think there's any labourer can get a position unless in some of the factories for to work full time.

The amendment makes it still easier for the department to judge as to the fair wage and I don't see any objection to. the amendment to the amendment at all. I say I'm going to tell my group to sup port the amendment to the amendment; oppose the amendment; and support the original motion. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The question before the House is the amendment to the amendment. Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion lost. A MEMBER: Ayes and Nays, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. MR.

SPEAKER: The question before the House is the amendment to the amendment that reads as follows: "That the proposed amendment to the resolution be further amended by strik ing out the words reviewed in the sub-plan thereof and substituting the word increased and by deleting all the words after the word delay in the (

a) plan thereof and substituting the following: 'to assure a reasonable and adequate standard of living for all Manitoba workers 1• " A standing vote was recorded and the results were as follows: YEAS: Messrs. Gray, Harrls, Hawryluk, Orlikow, Paulley, Reid, Schreyer, Wagner, Wright. NAYS: Messrs.

Alexander, Baizley, Bjornson, Boulic, Campbell, Carroll, Christianson, Cobb, Cowan, Desjardins, Evans, Groves, Guttormson, Hamilton, Hillhouse, Hryhorczuk, Hutton, Jeannotte, Johnson (Assiniboia), Johnson (Gimli), Klym, Lissaman, Lyon, McKellar, McLean, Martin, Miller, Molgat, Prefontaine, Ridley, Roblin, Roberts, Scarth, Seaborn, Shewman, Smellie, Stanes, Strickland, Tanchak, Thompson, Weir, Willis, Witney. MR. SPEAKER: Yeas: 9: Nays: 43. I declare the motion lo� The question before the House is the amendment to the amendment. Mr.

Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried, MR. SPEAKER: The question before the House • ; ... MR. CAMPBELL: Ayes and Nays, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. MR. SPEAKER: The question before the House is the amendment to the main motion, that the resolution be amended as follows: by striking out the words steadily in the first line thereof and by striking out all of the words after the word living where it appears in the second line of the paragraph (2) thereof and substituting the following: 'and

whereas the Minimum Wage Board has been convened and the Chairman appointed, resolve that this House urge the present minimum wage rates be reviewed without delay to meet present day conditions in the province. 1 A standing vote was recorded and the results were as follows: YEAS: Messrs. Alexander, Baizley, Bjornson, Boulic, Carroll, Christianson, Cobb, Cowan, Evans, Groves, Hamilton, Hutton, Jeannotte, Johnson (Assiniboine), Johnson (Gimli), Klym, Lissaman, Lyon, McKellar, McLean, Martin, Ridley, Roblin, Scarth, Seaborn, Shew man, Smellie, Stanes, Strickland, Thompson, Weir, Willis, Witney. NAYS: Messrs.

Campbell, Desjardins, Gray, Guttormson, Harris,. Hawryluk, Hillhouse, Hryhorczuk, Miller, Molgat, Orlikow, Paulley, Prefontaine, Reid, Roberts, Schreyer, Tanchak, Wagner, Wright. MR. SPEAKER: Yeas: 33: Nays 19. I declare the motion carried. The question before the House now is the main motion as amended. After a v.oice vote Mr. Speaker declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourabie Member for Rhineland. The Honourable Member for Brokenhead. MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Mr.

Speaker, in rising to speak on this resolution I think that perhaps the first thing that I should clarify is that the position of this group" is not changed; basically it remains the same as was our view at the last session. However, -during the course of the last few months I think that we have all had an opportunity to re-think some of the legislation which was put before us. I think, Mr. Speaker, that certainly I can say that Page 1168 July 2lst, 1959.

(Mr. Schreyer, cont'd. ) . .•• the resolution proposed by the Member for Rhineland contains a great deal of merit.

I rose on a similar occasion during the last session and said that one of the, perhaps the only main reason f or being somewhat diss ati sfied with the existing grant scales as regards school construction, was the fact that it seemed to di scri minate against those areas in rural Manitoba where the density of population was not sufficient to warrant the building of the larger schools, which automatically would debar, or would bar those areas from the poss ibility - the practicability of building the twelve-room school or even larger, and thus qualify for the maximum grant. Mr.

Speaker, I would hasten to assure the Mini ster that insofar as this group is concerned we still stand squarely, as does his group, behind the pri ncip le; behind the thinking that in this day and age it is extremely necessary that we try and build schools of a larger size in order to provide the utmost in faciliti es. When .. the Member f or Rhineland was speaking the other day, I think he pointed it out rather clearly, and I will quote.

The Member for Rhineland states, "The existing sliding scale formula benefits the densely populated area while mitigating against those areas with a lesser density of population. '11 And although we certainly, in this group, are in favour of the larger schools wherever possible, we cannot escape the conclusion that in this provi nce under the existing scale, some areas are being mitigated against, for reasons beyond the control of the. people of that area and of the school board of that area.

It certainly seems hard to understand why we should allow to exist a situation whereby the people are being penalized in an economic sense. However, the Member for Rhineland went on to say that it could be that some areas might not want to centralize. Well that is the only point where we would want to diff er. In those areas where it is not possi ble to centralize, then provision should be made to offer them the maximum grant in any case.

But where they have the opportunity to centrallze and it is practical to do so, and if they don't w,ant to, certainly I cannot see why they should have the benefit of the larger grant. The Member for Arthur in speaking on this resolution said that there doesn't seem to be any amount of disc rimination as far as rural Manitoba was concerned. I believe that is the essence of what he said . He says we have not gone far enough with this new plan to see whether or not this is really the case. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I submit that it doesn't take a genius, doesri 't take a clairvoyant, to see already that the existing grant scales are going to di scrimi nate against the -- those areas which have a comparatively sparse density of population. · Insofar as the Honourable Mini ster was concerned when he was speaking on this, he made quite a good case as to why the government.should not extend the grants - construction grants - of the larger of the higher amount, to those areas which refused, which voted no, on the school division referend um. And for the most

part I think that we would have to be fair and go along with him on that. But I suggest again that there is no disputing the fact those areas are in a -- , finding themselves in some difficulty, comparatively speaking, and surely thi s legislature has a responsibility to these people as well; and certainly it is not asking too much to ask that this government exercise - some discretion to bring on itself a little bit of the spirit of 'forgive and forget' or forgi veness if you like. And so, Mr. Speaker, I believe that I have stated the essence -- the gist of what I really set out to say.

I would like to - and I believe this to be in the in terests of education in this province - I therefore move, Mr. Speaker, seconded by the Honourable Member for Logan that the res olution be amended by adding thereto the following: "Providing that all the members of the Board in charge of secondary schools are unanimously in agreement, that it is not practical or desirable to construct any school, or schools, in their jurisdication, of the size required in order to qualify for the maximum grant. " Mr. Speaker put the question. MR. K. ALEXANDER (Roblin): Mr.

Speaker, I move seconded by the Honourable Mem- ber from st. Matthews that the debate be adjourned. - Mr. Speaker read the motiol). and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Member for Brokenhead; and the proposed motion and amendment thereto by the Honourable Member for Roblin. The Honourable Member for St, John's. . MR. ORLIKOW: Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Member for Roblin in speaking to this · resolution made an attack on the Honourable Member for Inkster, and later attacked the motiv-; ations of this group in introducing this resolution, in language which I felt I wanted to answer. July 2lst, 1959. Page 1169

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd. ) ..•• I, Mr. Speaker, am no expert on farm matters - my constituency . is entirely a city, an urban constituency, but I am one of those people, Mr. Speaker, who believe that the plight of the Canadian farm er is one which all Canadian people, whether they Uve in the rural areas or the cities and towns of Canada, must give consideration to.

Because I believe that the future of the Canadian farmer is bound up with the future of the people who live in the cities and towns in Canada, and there cannot be real or lasting prosperity in the cities without similar prosperity on the farm s of this country. One needs only, Mr. Speaker, to remember the l93 0's when farm income dropped to practically zero because of the loss of markets , low prices and drought, to rem ember that while this was happening, probably a quarter of the work ing people of Canada who lived in the cities were out of work and on relief. And so, Mr.

Speaker, when the people who live in the cities see that farm income has dropped by 28% for Wheat , by 29% for Oats , and by 22% for Barley since 1947, while farm costs for goods and services have gone up by 50%, we are concerned. Now according to fi gures issued by the Manitoba-Ottawa Farm Delegation Committee in February of this year, net farm income in Manitoba has dropped fro m $176, OOO, OOO. 00 in 1948 to $77, OOO, OOO. 00 in 1957 - a drop of over 56%. Mr.

Speaker, I believe that the people whom I represent, and indeed the people of all the cities and towns of Canada, cannot be working, can not be producing, and all the goods which they produce cannot be sold, if the fa rmers do not receive a price for their products which is suff icient to enable them to provide for themselves and their families a decent standard of living . I think we are partners and that's why we are concerned. One only needs to look at the employment picture to see how adversely city people are affected by a drop in farm income.

Unemployment in mid-January of 1959 was 538 , OOO people - 8. 8% of the total work force, ll, OOO over the year before in a similar month. Now we believe, Mr. Speaker, that the basic problem grows out of the serious inbalance between our ability. to produce more and more each year -- and nobody has demonstrated that ability better than the Canadian fa rmers-- and our ability to distribute the products which we produce. For the fi rst time in history, we in Canada have the tools and the know-how to solve the ancient problems of food and clothing, and the problem of poverty and hunger in this country.

Now the fa rmer isn't producing too much, Mr. Chairman -- Mr. Speaker. What is happening is that the people of this country simply aren't able to buy the goods which the far mers are producing. Because most of the production of the Canadian farm s could be used in this country if the people of Canada had the wherewithal to buy the products of Canadian fa rmers - with the exception of grain products .

We have tremendous storage faciliti es for powdered milk; if the Canadian people would be - if the students in Canadian schools were each to drink a glass of milk more each day I think that the surplus Canadian milk would vanish very quickly. But I want, Mr. Speaker, to deal for just a few mom ents with some of the points which were raised by the Honourable Member for Roblin.

He said on July 14th, I quote from page 907 of Hansard when the Honourable Member from Brokenhead had referred to statements made by the present Prime Minister of Canada with regard to deficiency payments before he became the Prime Minister, and the Honourable Member for Roblin said, and I quote , this is what he said, the Prime Minister of Canada said, "Before the term ination of the session and at the earliest possible date a general indication will be given ·apropos the Federal Government's position with regard to deficiency payments. " Well, Mr.

Speaker, the House at Ottawa has fi nished its business,. and to my knowledge there was no statement from the government. When the govern ment of Canada adopted its policy of an acreage payment it was announced while the House was in session, and the money was appropriated at that time. The Ho use at Ottawa has fini shed for this year. It may be that they have a method of finding the money to make a payment of some kind to the west ern fa rmer without referenc e to the House.

It may be ·so, and if so, I would like to hear about it, but as far as I can find out from discussing it with farm leaders who I have been able to contact as far as _this year is concerned, they are of the opinion, as I am, that this year there will be no paym ent to the west ern Canadian farm er. So much for the sug gestion of the honourable member that there would be something done this year.

Now the honourable member said that, on the same page, and I quote, ''I think we should also emphasize that deficiency payments - any form of defic iency payment - in itself is not the final answ er, but that they are necessary as a stop-gap measure while a more permanent solu tion is being found. " Well we in this group agree; we have agreed all along. _We have disagreed Page 1170 July 2lst, 1959.

(Mr. Orlikow , cont'd. ) .... with the honourable member as to the type of payment that should be made, whether it should be on the bushel basis or on the acreage basis, but certainly we agree that this is a method for a temporary stop-gap.

If he wants to find somebody who dis agrees with him he better look at the people in the Grain Exchange - he better look at the people in the Financial Post; they are the people who believe that the farmer should be the only person in this_ economy who has to work with the free enterprise system and let the price go-to what the market will bear and sell our goods at that pric e. And yet he talks about the fact that the Honourable Member for Brokenhead says that the only way to reduce the cost-price squeeze is through deficiency payments. This the Honourable Member for Brokenhead never said. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the Honourable Member for Roblin said, and I quote again, "This situa tion" - he is talking about the problem of the farmer - ''has resulted in benefits to most of our non-farming population in higher salaries and wages, and in a hig her standard of living . " Now, Mr. Speaker, I would agree with that, but it seems to me tha(the honourable member missed a very important point. I agree with him that the cost of living - the standard of living has gone up, that higher salaries and wages are a fact in this country, but he missed a very important point, and I think he missed the most im portant point.

I don't know whether he did it acci dentally or he did it deliberately, but there wasn't a word in the speech of the Honourable Member from Roblin about what has happened to the profits of busin ess. And certainly not a word 1n hi s speech about what has happened to the profits of the big business corporations who deal with the farmers of western Canada. And in case he hasn't taken the trouble to look at their profit picture, I am going to give him a few illustrations of what has happened, because I think it1s impor tant to him - I think it's important to the farmers of western Canada. And I quote, Mr.

Speaker, from the Survey of Industrials made by Financial Post for 1947 and 195 7: "Net profits for a company which has a good deal to do with how the farmers of western Canada do. For Imperial Oil, in 1947 their profits were $20, OOO, OOO. 00 a year; in 1957 their profits were $72, OOO, OOO. 00 a year. Burns and Company, which buys the beef and the hogs which the farmers of Manitoba produce, in 1947 they made a net profit of $516, OOO. 00; by 1957 the profit had gone to over $1, 100, OOO. 00. Canada Packers, in 1947 - a net profit of over $2, OOO, OOO. 00; by 1957 a net profit of over $4, 500, OOO. 00.

Now we come to some of the tremendous food chains which are buying products from the Canadian farmer and selling them to the Canadian consumer, and I think this is im portant to the farmer. Canada Safeway in 1947 m·ade a profit of just over $1, 1000, OOO; by 1957 they made a profit of over $5, 600, OOO. 00. Dominion Stores, in 1947 a profit of $883, OOO. 00; in 1957 a profit of over $6, 500, OOO. 00. Loblaws, in 1947 a profit of $1, 200, OOO. 00; in 1957 a net profit of over $8, OOO, OOO. 00 for the year.

" These are fi gures which the honourable member I think should have produced when he was talking about the prob lems which the Canadian farmer has to face.

Now the honourable member in discussing the question of deficiency payments to the farmers said that he was of the opinion that the best in terests of the western Canadian farmer would be served by a payment -- during the last ses sion he wasn't so shy of using the word deficiency payment but this time he changed' it, he doesn't like that word - but they should receive a payment, and he suggests that the payment should be on the basis of acreage rather than bushels . Well , Mr.

Speaker, I want to say that in my opinion the honourable member had a right to that opinion, although he suggested when we say that the payments should be on the basis of bushels - he suggested we are trying to make political capital . I am not as narrow as the Honourable Member from Roblin. I say he's entitled to his opinion. But, Mr.

Sp•3aker, this is a matter on which I submit there are two opinio ns, and I want to say that when the hon ourable member says that we are making political capital of this , that the honourable member should be honest enough to admi t that he is making his argument in the wrong place; because he may be right, Mr. Speaker, but he is in a minority amongst the western Canadian farmers. Because he charged us, Mr.

Speaker, he says on page 908, "What I can't figure out is why the CCF Party in Manitoba was so anxious to play follow-the-lea der with their Socialist friends in Saskatchewan and sell out the in terests of the Manitoba farmer. " Well, Mr.

Speaker, if we are selling out the inte rests of the Manitoba farmer - and I reject that completely - I wonder what the honourable member .has to say about the farm organizations, because let's look at their record; The Farmers' Uni.on of Alberta has endorsed deficiency payments on the acreage basis as suggested in our resolution ; The Farmers ' Uni.on of Saskatchewan has endorsed a July 21 st, 1959. Page 11 71

(Mr. Orlikow, cont' d.) .... similar policy. The Manitoba Farmers' Union has endorsed this policy. Now J know that the fir st president of the Manitoba Farmers' Union was, and is a mem ber of the CCF ; but the second president of the Manitoba Farmers' Union was not, and the present president of the Manitoba Farmers' Union is, to my knowledge at least, not a member of the CCF. Is he e;elling out the interests of the Manitoba farmer? The Alberta Federation of Agriculture endorsed defic iency payments on the basis of acreage.

The Saskatchewan Feder ation of Agriculture endorse deficiency payments on the basis of acreage --on the basis of bushels. The Manitoba Federation did the same. Mr. Speaker, there is no district in the Province of Manitoba, to my knowledge, which sent more delegates with the delegation that went to Ottawa requesting the Federal Government to pay a deficiency payment to the fa rmers o.a the basis of bushels - no district sent more delegates to Ottawa than the distrtc.it of Swan River, Roblin, Dauphin and through to Marquette. We have the figur es here.

There is no person in this province who endorsed this policy more actively than the Director of the Pool Elevators for the district which the Member from Roblin belongs to. The member sp:>ke on several occasions of the fact that he is a member of the Pool Elevators - I think he said that he was a director of his local pool, as I remember it - and I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that he ought not to come into this House and attack us of playing politics.

If he thinks that the deficiency payments on the basis of bushels is politics, then the place for him to go is to go home and suggest to his local pool elevator and to the pool elevators in his district that they find a new director; and that the Farmers' Union of Manitoba change its policy, because if we are out of line in suggesting this resolution, which is 100 percent in accord with the request of all the major farm organizations, then there is the place that he ought to go to work, and not here. Mr. Speaker, I submit, Mr.

Speaker, that on the basis of the representations which have been made by the major farm organization that our resolution is in support of them; that it is not a resolution submitted in terms -of political support or exped iency. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that had there not been a change in the government in Ottawa that the members on that side of the House would be today - not only would they be supporting this resolution - I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that they would have submitted this resolution before we did. And I suggest, Mr.

Speaker,that this resolution warrants the support as originally .proposed by this Hous e. MR. 0. BAIZLEY (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the honourable gentleman would permit a question? I wonder if he could tell us the investment capital the amount of sales that was required to produce this remarkable profit sheet:? MR. ORLlKOW : Mr.

Speaker, if the honourable member is referring to the profit fi gures of the companies which I quoted, I haven't got it here, I haven't got the answers to the questions which he asked me here, but I will be very happy to go into the library which is down the hall fro m this room, get the survey of industrials from which I took this info rmation and show him that the profits have gone up - yes, the investment has gone up but most of the increase in the investment has been taken not by borrowing new money but simply by holding back a bigger part of the profit fr om the shareholders, and therefore building up the equity of the companies con cerned.

But if the honourable member wants - really wants to fin d it I'll be glad to show it to him , Mr. Speaker, anytime. MR. G. HUTTON (Rockwood Iberville) Mr. Speaker, I rise with a little temerity to speak on this subject, and you may think that is odd, but having been actively engaged in farming for 20 years I found as a good many far mers have, that the .more experience you have at it the less answers you seem to have. Now I was associated with the Honourable Member for Fisher on one of the major farm organizations in this province. I don't doubt for one minute his sincerity.

At the same time I never agreed with him on a good many points, and the question of defic iency payments is one point which we have had an honest diff erence on for quite a whil e. The Honourable Member for St. John's expressed concern, the concern of the urban people for the plight of the Canadian farm er. As a fa rmer I appreciate that and I appreciate his interest, and I think that it's very important that there is a larger and greater measure of understanding between the urban community and the rural community. He says that the pros perity of the far mer and the urban dweller are complimentary.

I agree with him . It isn't so apparent today as it used to be. In fact one of our leading economists in the east, I believe it Page 1172 July 2lst, 1959.

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd. ) •... was Dr. McFarlane, said in writing in the Country Gentleman a couple of years ago that it was beginning to be questionable if the urban community is dependent so much upon the prosperity of the agricultural community, but certainly it was true and un deniable that the agricultural community depended upon the prosperity of the urban community. He said that one of our problems today was the unbalance that exists between production and distribution. I won't argue with him here at all because that is our problem. Our prime prob lem is markets.

We have ability to produc e and I think we have the means today and the know ledge today to extend this ability to produce to more farmers, but we have to get markets. He said that farmers could sell all products if the Canadian people could afford to buy them. Well I doubt that very much. I'll deal with that a little later on. I will admit that there are plenty of children in Canada for instance who don't get enough milk to drink. I think the figure is about 25% of them.

He went on, oh yes, he mentioned that Prime Minister John Diefenbaker had not commi tted himself when the House was adjourned, but if I remembe� correctly there was a note in the newspaper a day or so ago indicating that the Prime Minister of Canada would yet make an announcement. I have no more knowledge than the Honourable Member for St. John's as to where the money is coming from but I trust that if the Prime Minister will make an announce ment he will commi t himself one way or another. The Honourable Member for St. John's made a rather Violent attack upon the so-called enemies of agriculture.

I don't think that the best interests of the farmers lie i.n stirring up antagonism between the businesses that serve agriculture, those that process its products and the farmer. If we're ever going to get anywhere I suggest that we're going to have to get to gether and try and solve our problems and as long as we stay in our own backyard and hurl bricks and mud we'll never arrive at any solution.

And as far as his argument about Burns and Com pany and Canada Packers and so on, I have a statement here from the - I forget which paper it's from, I just cut it out this morning, Free Press I believe - "Meat Profits Down" . "The profit from livestock products," the report says, "were l3- l/4� per hundredpounds or just over l/Sth of a cent a pound".

Now these millions of dollars are accumulated through volume and if you think that the packing compan.ies in Canada are making large profits, let me assure you that there are some farmers in Canada who make large profits too -- even at today's prices and strictly on a volume basis -- so I don't think that the attack of the Honourable Member for st. John's is entirely correct. In fact I think he is away off the mark. And anyone who is engaged in agriculture today knows that if everything had stayed in line as the prices he is pay ing for his fuel and oil, he wouldn't be in too bad a position.

We have no great argument with the oil companies in Canada; they have produced a product and a good product in volume. Now the question has been raised as to the solidarity of the appeal of the western farmer for deficiency payment on a bushel basis. I am particularly concerned in Manitoba. What Alberta and Saskatchewan want I'm not nearly so concerned about. I think the best argument that I can put forward is the fact that I have stated today that the Honourable Member for Fisher and I were members of the same farm organization and we held entir'ely opposing views in this matter.

Not only that; following the provincial convention of the MFA I was surprised -- at _which they endorsed deficiency payments, a matter of just weeks ago- I was surprised to pick up the stonewall Argos recently and see a report of the district convention, district 6 and they went on record as favouring acreage payments. Now I'll admit that the amount that they wanted was a little higher than $1. 00 an acre. They wanted $2. 00 an acre on the first 300 acres.

But surely the thing that we are considering here is not the amount; it's the method of paying out this money. -J The Honourable Member for Fisher in his speech the other day asked if this amendment was for charity or parity. Now I suggest he just look at the record of parity by price, of try ing to achieve parity by raising prices . In the United states 44% of the farmers produce 90% of the agricultural products and they picked up, a cheque for the benefit of 90% of the cost of supporting these products in that country. Now this is very fair.

I think we sho:ild consider it very closely before we start on a program of deficiency payments in this country. And what is the result of it? They've got 44% producing 90% of the food products. 56% of them what do they get? 10%. Now you 've got a problem there in spite of the high support prices that they've enjoyed in that country over the past decade, you've got a tremendous problem over there and parity by price has not gotten anywhere in trying to solve it. July 2l st, 19 59. Page 1173

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd; ) •... And then I thought it might be interesting to see what was happening in Great Britain, because in the United states and Canada we have a surplus problem, and any time we try and do anything by raising support prices we create production incentive and then we end up with a different kind of headache.

But Great Britain imports a tremendous amount of food products and I was reading in the Economist, several articles in the Economist, and it pointed out that in spite of the subsidies that have been paid in England for the last - well before the war, or the time of the war, they were instituted and they have been gradually increased. And what's the record? Two-thirds of the British farmers are feeling the cost-price squeeze and they find that the small farmer isn't any better off than he was 10 years, 20 years ago.

And so a couple of years ago, I think it was '57, they brought in some new legislation over there called the Small Farm Bill, in an attempt to try and hitch up the small farmer. To bring him into a position where he had a chance at arriving at a parity of income, and it constitutes cap ital grants to the small farmer over a period of three years. In Canada - well we' ve had a measure of price supports, not nearly a.S much as our sister country to the south, but if you want to take the very top bracket according to Dr.

McFarlane, who says some farmers are making money , there are 15% of them who take in 70% of the gross profit in agriculture. 15% gets 70. That leaves 85% of them with 30% of the income from agri culture., So it's easy to see why we have a problem. 'Now I think the question is, do we want to help the small farmer. Are we really concerned about him or are we just talking? And I think when we talk about parity we must recognize, and I believe that our friends in the CCF Party recognize, that there are other ways of achieving parity.

And the Conservative Government here in Manitoba has recognized that, and we are doing our best on a provincial scale to help the farmer to put himself in a position where he will have an opportunity to earn parity of income. And the Federal Government is taking steps and trying to help the farmer, allows him farm credit, crop insurance, the soil study. And here we have two policies.

The one is - well let's say it's an artificial kind of policy where you try and lift the price up to cover the increased cost of production, and the other is a par ticipating policy in which you try and take certain steps to put yourself in a position where you can compete under these circumstances. There is another thing.

Small farmers who have a· small volume cannot earn parity of incom.e, because income is made up of price times volume, and if you just merely raise the prices up without taking any action to help that small farmer increase his production, he's just going to be left behind, because ii you do it by price you put greater purchasing power in the man who controls the wealth of agriculture. You put it in the hands of those 15 - 30% at the top. In Manitoba two-thirds of the farmers produce about 90%, and what are we going to do about those at the bottom.

Even with a $1, 500. 00 limit those small farm3rs on the bottom aren't helped to too great a degree. The quarter-s ection farmer who feeds his grain. Now I have quite a few in my constit uency, in fact I have some figures here but if you go into figures it takes too long. But about half are -- better than half I would say acreagewise are on the small side.

I think during the Throne Speech debate that I pointed out about half the constituency was made up of large grain farms, and then when you got into Rockwood and Woodlands you found a lot of dairying, a lot of beef, a lot of hog producers, -and there are a lot of quarter-sect ion farmers there. Now am I to come into this House and vote in favour of a resolution that's going to leave them out? I had occasions last winter when people tried to put me on the spot about deficiency payments. Most times they backfired because there was always a chap standing around who didn't sell any grain.

He farmed a quarter of 200 acres, but in order to make a living he had to feed it all and work like a Turk , but he's making his contribution just as well as the larger grain farmer is and he deserves help and he needs help. A chap I used to know used to'say - speaking of a man who had a little more of this world's goods than the other chap -- he'd say "To him that hath more shall be given; to him that hath not what little he hath shall be taken away. " The disparity between the top operators and the small operator is getting greater all the time.

Not only do they get a greater income but the top 35% of the operators in Canada control 52% of the real estate, land and buildings, and they control what is more important, 60% of the Page 1174 July 21st, 1959.

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd.) .•.. implements and the machines. And I say that we 've got to make sure that the money that we p.it out to the farmers goes into the hands of those who need it the most. There is another aspect of parity by price, and that is that it brings with it production controls, stringent controls. They tried controls in the United States and they failed, and I would just like to read to you what the Secretary of Agriculture over there had to say about controls. "You would have.to eliminate all these exceptions I have mentioned plus several others in the .••... and I doubt if farmers would take it.

I don't think Congress would pass it in the first place, but if they did, I don't think farmers would accept it and I doubt if the Secretary of Agriculture could enforce it if Congress did pass it. " Here is what the greatest wheat producer, the· largest wheat producer in the world had to say. He's advocating controlled wheat production in the United States but on a different basis. He suggests that they should have a two-price system. One for home consumption and that they should take what the world market would bring. But then he farms 45, OOO acres, raises 20, OOO acres of wheat each year.

If you did get rid of the present wheat surplus how would you keep a new surplus from building up he is asked. "This calls for drastic action too. I suggest a reduction in acreage of 50% for two years. A reduction in loan values for the same period. This will mean hardship on the farmers but we must take our loss like other taxpayers. We have had prosperity since the price support plan has been effective. " There isn't vsry much hope in a statement like that for the small farmer. Take for instance hogs. That was brought up here in the beginning of this debate, and I raise a few.

It's pointed out that we should have higher prices. Well this year according to this same statement on the meat profits it stated that we will produce 8 million hogs in Canada in 1959. If we don't, and there has been criticism of the Federal Minister of Agriculture because he suggests limiting the amount, in a deficiency payment program, limiting the support price to an initial delivery of hogs. And why is this necessary? Well in Ontario you have 78, OOO hog produce_rs but if there were 20, OOO hog producers with a 20 sow unit they could pro duce enough pork for all the people in Canada.

And if there were 4, OOO - 100 sow units they'd do the job and what would you do with 7 4, OOO hog producers in Ontario, not to talk about the rest of the country? Something has to be done and so far no one has found a better way to con trol production than by cutting prices. We know that in the United States because they've left lievestock production alone, they haven't supported the prices, it has never been in serious trouble. But everything that you try and guarantee at anything above a shop level you get into trouble with it.

And I think it's in the Royal Commission Report on the economic prospects in Canada that it states that it should be kept at the same level as in an analogous position to unemployment insurance; it should prevent distress but it shouldn't be made an incentive to production. · Then there was another question came up that I think is important. The low prices for grain result in the over-production of livestock. Surplus grain and uncertain markets can be, the results can be attributed to these factors for the increase in livestock production.

Farmers have been willing to sell the last few years underneath the Wheat Board prices -- just anxious to -- I know of thousands and thousands of bushels, hundreds of thousands of bushels of oats that were sold at anywhere from 35 to 45 cents a bushel -- and the farmers in Manitoba were tickled to death to get rid of it. Look at the large increase i.n the number of registered seed growers in the province. I've had a little experience here. You grow good registered seed, the market's full of it and you sell it.

Probably take 20% dockage on it, although you can take your cleanings back, but it's sold on a clean seed basis and you'll take in from anywhere from $1. 25 to $1. 35. You would get more out of your wheat if you sold it through the Canadian Wheat Borad, but farmers want to get money, and that's why they have gone into livestock because they've got to convert that grain into cash. Then who would this deficiency payment - to whom would they be an incentive to go out of livestock. To the small farmer who needs to be in livestock.

Not only that, if we were to follow this policy we would be endorsing a policy tha'I; is in outright contradiction to the policy that is followed by our own Department of Agriculture. The· men in the field are trying to promote and encourage crop rotation; trying to promote livestock production to put our farmers in Manitoba on a.more solid basis. And here we would be promoting a policy which July 2l st, 1959. Page 1175

(Mr. Hutton, cont'd. ) •... would be to the small farmer who needs to be in livestock, who especially needs to be in livestock, we're asking -- we would be promoting a policy that isn't in his best interests and in contradiction to the policy of our own Department of Agriculture here. And they say that there isn't too much diff erence in Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Size of farms 210 cultivated to 392 acres cultivated. Manitoba 20% of our cash income is from Wheat. Saskatchewan 60% of their cash income is from Wheat.

Manitoba 47% of their income is from field crops; Saskatchewan 80% of their income is from field crops. There is no doubt that a province which has three times as many farm ers, but with an average farm acreage double that of Manitoba and 7 times our acreage in wheat, is going to do better on a deficiency payment basis. They had in 1956 - we had 2 million acres in wheat, they had 14 million acres in wheat. Now just a brief word on the two-price system. There is very little wheat sold through the Canadian Wheat Board. About 50 million for domestic purposes.

Even if you paid $1. 00 a bushel it would be $50, OOO, OOO. 00 and where would it go? Again to the big wheat producers. And I think finally it is an erroneous assumption to believe because you go to Ottawa and ask Ottawa for deficiency payments, that you're going to get more money out of Ottawa than if you asked for acreage payments. And it seems to me that the CCF argument in this House has been based on that assumption that they are going to get more money from Ottawa under one plan than they will under another. I believe that the Federal Government will give as much help to the western farmer as they can.

And I think that we in Manitoba and this Legislature should see to it that whatever help is forthcomi ng to the farm ers of western Canada, it should be on a basis where the farmers of Manitoba are going to get an equitable share. Thank you very much . . . . . • • . • • • • • . Continued on next page. "Page 1176 July 21st, 1959.

MR . M.E. McKELLAR (Souris-La nsdowne): Mr . Speaker, I'd just like to say a few words - very few words to endorse what the Honourable Member for Rockwood-Iberville has just said in his address. Speaking as a farmer I feel that there's been a lot of talk about this march to Ottawa and all about the deficiency payments by the bushel; and to the fact that most farmers in western Canada agreed �th the basis on which that payment was to be made . I disagree very much though with that saying . I have talked with many farmers in our area and I don't think that too many that are in favour of payment by the bushel.

Most of them are very much in favour of payment by the acre . I would like to say just a ,,,;ord or two on deficiency payment, as I can see them from a farmer' s standpoint. I pers onally believe that deficiency payments will create inefficiency, something which we as farmers do not want. I think what we farmers want is efficiency and something which our Department of Agriculture in our province are trying to create in the dif ferent programs that they are bringing up . And that, in my belief, is the answer to our agri cultural problems in our province and western Canada as a whole.

On that pres entation by the farmers at Ottawa, as they stated -- of the $300, OOO, OOO. 00 which they wanted from the Domin ion of Can ada, 67% of that was allocated to the Province of Saskatchewan, leaving only 33% to divide equally between Manitoba and Alberta. That in itself was something to turn the stomach of the farmers of Manitoba sour . I think that the payment that was given last fall was given on the right basis . Whether we should have got more, that• s only for many of us to decide .

I think that the Government of Canada are interested in our problem and I believe that they will do something for our problem . But I do not believe that it will be given on the bushel basis, because as the Member for Fisher has been complaining about the flood problem in his consti tuency, those farmers in that area would not receive one cent if it was paid on the bushel basis , because they did not have any grain . Also myself, in 1956, I was hailed out completely. I would not receive one cent under the bushel basis;

whereas under the acreage basis I did re ceive something. I think also there are many other things -- tragedies on the farm such as pests and other natures which you would not receive any payments on the bushel basis . So for that reason I endorse very much this amendment here which the Honourable Member for Roblin has endorsed here . I think that we could argue here for many long hours and we would not maybe come to any answer and one which each one of us will look on this from a different view point . But I think when the Honourable Member for st.

John' s was so greatly interested in the farmers, he is not helping solve the solution when he is trying to raise the increase in the mini mum wage per hour, because when he does that he 's raising our cost of production. And you can see that as he is trying to promote one thing and harm another, I don't think that his argu ments stand up to much on that basis . We as fa rmers I think are always trying to help our own , cause and we lead a life where we are our own boss from morning till night; something which many of the city people are not accustomed to .

And on that basis, I think that when you lead that sort of life you are more interested in helping to improve your efficiency on your own farm . MR . S. ROBERTS (La Verendrye) : Mr . Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honour able Member for Emerson that the debate be adjourned. Mr . Speaker pres ented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . SPEAKER: Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition; and the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Brandon in amend ment thereto. Are you ready for the question ?

The Honourable the Leader of the CCF. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, this is a debate in which a lot has been said of the idea - Mr . Speaker, I can appreciate many difficulties in a resolution of this nature, beca use in both the main motion and the amendment to the main motion there is nothing of a concrete nature proposed. I had anticipated that when the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition introd uced a resolution dealing with the question of the independence of the Speaker, that he was going to carry through his announced plan on opening day of this present Legislature, to put me on the spot.

I don't know exactly what he had in mind at that time but I don't think that the resolution will do that. Now, I agree that a year or so ago we had agreed in the Legislature to two reso lutions. One dealing with the question of setting up an additional indemnity, or additional al lowance for Mr . Speaker; and another one taking that out of Cons olidated Revenue rather than July 21st, 1959. Page 1177

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd.) .••• an appropriation of the House . If I recall correctly, on one reso lution the seconder of the resolution was the present the First Minister; on the other one was my former Leader in the House of the CCF Party. And I agree with the resolution that these two resolutions passed unanimously, and that there was somewhat of a general agreement that it would be desirable, if found possible, to have a Speaker in our House divorced entirely from party politics-and any aspect of that nature .

And on introducing one of the resolutions, if I re call correctly, or in a subsequent speech, I believe the Leader of the Opposition suggested the possibility of some system whereby a me mber having -- a Speaker, having been once elected and chosen as Speaker of the House, would in future years, providing he was acceptable to the first Legislature, not have to undergo an actual election, but would be elected in a constituency surrounding this building by the members, as I understand it, of the newly elected House being the voters.

A nd I had thought of the possibility of some resolution of that nature being proposed by my honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition. However, in his wisdom, he chose to present the resolution as we have it before us . And then we have this amendment, and I might say, Mr. Speaker, it's rather hard to talk of the amendment without bringing in the main motion, and I hope that I will be excused for that. And then subsequent to that we got the amendment from the Honourable Member from Brandon . Now I might say, Mr.

Speaker, that in general we agree with the amendment, be cause we have found this sort of a system, which actually isn't a system but a practice and custom that has held swa y in the Mother of Parliament for a number of years , that it works out reasona bly well . But while saying that we are in general agreement with the amendm ent, we also recognize that the situation as they have it in the Old Land, applied to Manitoba would be difficult to achieve. Because we know that it has taken many years , even in the old country, to reach the position that they now have generally .

So I say, Sir, that we are in general agree ment with the amendment. We realize that it is difficult to achieve.

But I would like to just comment for a second or two on the point that I raised at the off set, of a general unanimous agreement in respect of the two resolutions that were passed a couple of years ago, and say this, that in my opinion, while the honourable the -- the present Honourable the First Minister did allow his name to be linked with that of the former First Minister in one resolution, I don't think that the present First Minister has done very, very much to encourage the thoughts behind the resolutions at that time.

And as to the Leader of the Opposition, I think rather than achieving his desired.end, that all too frequently in this mat ter of the attempt of the establishing the independence of Mr. Speaker, that my honourable friend uses and plays politics in order to achieve his end. And I suggest that this is not the right approach to the whole problem . Now then, having said that, I would like to ••..... MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, I don't wish to interrupt my honourable friend, but I would like him to give the example of where the politics are being played if he could do so . MR .

PAULLEY: Well, I would say this, that one of the examples that I think I can use in all correctness in this is to refer once again to the statement of my honourable friend at the opening of this present Legislature, when in a brief discussion on the question of Mr. Speaker, in the election of Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend turned to me and said "I'll be putting you on the spot" or words to that effect. MR. CAMPBELL: That's not politics. MR . PAULLEY: I -- well, my honourable friend and I may differ as to whether it's politics or not. In my opinion, Mr. Speaker, I consider that it was .

Because if we're approach ing this matter unbiased -- in an unbiased manner, why is it necessa ry to put anybody on the spot. And therefore I think I am perfectly within the rights to in terpret my honourable friend the way I have done . · Now then, I would say this, that in the Old Land there is a different political set-up to what we have here in Manitoba, at least insofar as it applies to parties such as we of the CCF.

Because in our party, unlike that ill the Old Land, the individual constituency organization has the authority to decide first of all whether or not they will run a candidate in an election, and secondly, the authority to name who that can didate shall be . Now the general recognized sys tem in the Old Land is that the central authority of the two ma jor parties, generally speaking, list a panel of potential candidates for the respective constituency in Great Britain. And fol lowing that the constituency ass ociation selects from that panel the candidate who's going to be Page 1178 July 2lst, 1959.

(Mr. Paulley, cont 'd.) ..•• the standard bearer in that particular constituency . So le an see that there may be some difficulty so far as that aspect of it in the Province of Manitoba and in reference to our own Party. I hasten to add this though, Mr. Speaker, that if, through tradi tion, a system was established generally, as suggested in the amendment, it may be that the central authority of the party of that time, whoever they may be:' may suggest that Mr. Speaker be not opposed by representatives of our party. But I would say, that it even hasn't worked out fully in Great Britain.

Because in 1935 the Speaker of Britain was opposed in an election, and particularly in 1945 when the Labour Government was elected in Great Britain at the conclusion of the war, they ran against the Conservative Speaker of the previous House . And then Sir, showing their impartiality to the opposite Mr. Speaker, on the Speaker being re-elected to the Seat, the Labour Government then turned around and nominated him for Mr. Speaker. And that is the intent, of course, in the amendment . But I say that even so; it may be a long period of time before we can achieve it in Manitoba.

But further to that, I might say this, that in the election in 1945 that I've just ref erred to, individuals who had been the Speaker in the former House did not run as a Conservative candi date. That once Mr. Speaker has been elected to the office of the Head of the House, he di vorces himself entirely from all party politics . And when the time for election comes again, he does not take

part in any of the political campaign. As I understand it, he does not even go on a public platform, but sends a letter around to his respective constituents as an individual seek ing re-election. And that is the system which, I understand, that they have it there. That he. runs without the party label. Now then, some of the objections which I understand hadJ:ieen given consideration as to that type of a representative or individual in a Parliament is if the constituency from which he is elected loses its representation in effect in the Assembly. I don't think this should be So , or actually in practice is so .

I don't think any constituency in Manitoba should fear because of the fact that the representative from their area is named the Speaker of the House , that they should feel that they are being deprived of representation.

Because I think it is a fu ndamental basis of the concepts of our democratic parliamentary system that while we fight for election in our own respective constituencies, that having once been elected our endeavours should be to the advancement of the jurisdiction of the whole, rather than for our independent or little bailiwick who send us to Assemblies like these . · It is true, it is perfectly true that there are many matters dealing with our respective constituencies that we take up of necessity with the various departments of government .

It is true that we take up matters dealing with the individual members of our constituencies. But I suggest that no member of this House would refuse to take up a problem which any individual member of the -- some other constituency had -- I'm sure that they would be pleased to do it. So I don't think, Mr. Speaker, that there need be any fe ar. As a matter of fact , I'm sure that the constituencies from which Mr. Speaker is selected would be honoured to think that their representative whom they sent to this Legislature would be nameff as Mr. Speaker.

I think we have a good example in this House of how it's not necessary for an individual who is elected from a particular constituency to look after purely constituency matters . I think we have a great example of this in this present session. Because on numerous occasions; on num erous occasions when members of the treasury benches have had resolutions or private bills, private bills dealing· with their own hometown or the home constituency, they have had as sponsors for those bills some other member of the government to sponsor . I think there's one on the Order Paper at the present time, Act No . 85,

An Act respecting the Town of Gimli. The representa tive for Gimli is not sponsoring that bill, the Honourable Member for Assiniboia is doing it. So I think we have at the present time, Mr. Speaker, some semblance of -- I mean when I say that a constituency does not need to feel deprived of representation providing we retain the sys tem which we have at the present time •. And supposing, Sir, we did as was suggested at one time, have a general election and then the 57 members who were elected to this Assembly be the electors of the constituency of this building. What would be the net result in any case ?

The majority would be of one political party or the other. So there they would be electing Mr. Speaker in any case . So therefore, Sir, while I can appreciate the intentions of the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition in proposing his main motion, I do think that the thought expressed in the July 21st, 1959 . Page 1179

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd.) •... amendment more closely follows my line of reasoning at least, I do recognize, however, and I'm sure that the honourable member who proposed the resolution recognizes the fact that it will take a considerable period of time. And I would say this, that if all the three major parties in this House really and truly believed in this system of the cus tom and practice of the Old Land, we could have a so-called permanent, independent, non partisan Speaker before too long.

And having had said that, that we could have a so-called permanent non-partisan Speaker, I don't think that even in the Old Land with its hundreds and hundreds of years of heritage as the leader of democracy, the Mother of Parliaments, that even yet they've had what could be truly considered as a truly non-party, non-partisan, inde pendent Speaker. MR. GRAY: Mr. Speaker, I'm extremely anxious to record my name in this and I say with all seriousness. with all honesty, in this very important discussion. At the outset may I say that la m speaking on my own personal behalf.

In the policy of the CCF it's the duty of the Leader to state its policy. Now, I think that we -- if we accomplish the question of this Speaker ship in the next ten years, it may be some useful purpose for the present discussion. Now let's be practical for a moment. The majority in this House have nominated one of its members to the position as Speaker for this Legislature, this Parliament, whether it'll last four years or five years.

I don't think will be any attempt for them to change .its mind the next five years anyway, especially I don't think they could find another man in the majority of the House who is more fit for the position of Speaker as the present Speaker . He's impartial, he's fair, he's considerate and he takes his position very, very seriously. The only time that perhaps they would like to change is borrow somewhere from this side of the House, but I don't think they'll do it in the next five years anyway.

Now after the five years are over, even if the three par:.. ties agree -- if all parties agree not to oppose the permanent Speaker, which is the present Speaker, let's not fool ourselves . Then other parties may crop up at time and nominate their men. It may be the Social Credit; it may be Independence, and no guarantee can be given if we all agree not to oppose him, that he will not be opposed.

And one more point, I have not yet found in my life among the intelligent and cultured people in this world that they are impartial, I cannot see any man, any Conservative claiming that he is independent while he is in the House and then is a Conser vative while he is out of the House . In other words a person, a cultured person, an intelligent person, cannot be impartial to any question -- he could be tolerant, he could be agreeable, but not impartial, because a men who is in public life must be a member of a Party which he be lieves in.

And I would not depend on the independence, and we have had quite a sample _in this House in the last 18 years since I am here . We never can rely on them, you don't know where they are going, they'll go to the left and right, everytime a question comes up. So I think per haps •••••... ..... discussion now is premature, for the next ten years at least. And for this reason, Mr. Speaker, I will not support the amendment because the amend ment is nothing but defeating the motion.

So might as well left defeated motion for the time being, in the years to come �i n the next five years here, or the next ten years -- we will probably have an academic discussion -- not a practical one, but an academic discussion as how first of all to create a person who is impartial -- which is impossible -- and secondly, what guarantee can we give anyone in this province that he will be elected by acclamation. MR. GROVES: Mr. Speak er, a great deal of what the Honourable Member from Inkster says is true, but his argument applies equally as well to many of the other debates which take place in this Chamber .

The amendment proposed by the Honourable Member from Brandon directs the House to follow the precendents that are set by the Mother of Parliament in England and I think that is a good thing, because in England the so-called per:inanent non-partisan Speaker has grown up as a custom over a period of many hundreds of years. And what the re- � solution, in my opinion, does is proposes to do this, not quite, but almost by legislation -- in other words the parties would have "to bind themselves to a sele ction of a Speaker before the House actually met to make the final choice .

The Honourable Leader of the CCF Party says that the amendment says nothing of a concrete nature, or says nothing of a concrete nature is proposed in the amendment. And neither there should be, because this is a custom which has to grow; a custom that we musn't force . Now although I have three books from the library I don•tmtend to take a great deal of the House's time, but I would like, just very briefly, to deal Page 1180 July 21st, 1959 .

(Mr. Groves, cont'd.) .... with some of the historical aspects of this question.· In this book entitled "An Introduction to the Procedure of the House of Commons" on page 52, dealing with the histo rical development of the Speakership, and I'm going to take lines here and there because the balance of the paragraphs don't actually apply to the point under -- and I'm not exactly lifting them out of context.

It says "The outstanding qualities of speakership as we know it, are independence and impartiality, they were developed slowly during a period of five.hu ndred years ." Then reading further on - first his principal function was to serve as a link between the Crown and the House of Commons. In 1400 the Crown began the practice of directing the Commons to choo se a Speaker, which came later to be regarded as an indispen sable step in the appointment. In the 18th Century dependence of tb.!'l Speaker on the Crown threatened to be replaced by the dependence on parties.

It took nearly one hundred years to recover, with his exception, the Speakers of the 18th Century took no pains to stand aside from politics . Addington in 1801 stepped straight from the Chair to the Premiership. Abbott, 1802 to 1817, repeatedly spoke in debates and even carried his partisanship to the Bar of the House of Lords . This conduct was felt to be sufficiently improper to deserve the proposal of a vote of censure . It was some time however, before the rule was esta blished that a Speaker should not, in Committee, take

part in debate and division like any other member. This was done with decreasing frequency by . • . . etc . etc . During the 19th Century the principle that the Speaker on his election ceased to belong to a Party grew firmly established. Since Adding ton, no ex-speaker has continued to sit in the House . Further the practice has grown up of re electing the Speaker at the beginning of each new Parliament as long as he is willing to stand. And then from "Parliament by Jennings" which was used by one of the other speakers in this debate - the result of this practice is that the Speaker is often, like Mr. Gilley, an ob scure backbencher; he must not have taken

part in acrimonious controversy; he must not be ob noxious to either side ; he must not therefore, have made himself too permanent. And I would like to underline this sentence - The qualities required of a Speaker are not really very high and so great is the prestige of the office and so careful are all parties to maintain his indepen dence and authority that any reasonable man can make a success of the office .

Now I read that paragraph because the Honourable Leader of the Opposition in his reso lution and also in his speech, sort of leads us to believe that the Speaker must be somebody that is of exceptional quality -- somebody that has exceptional qualific.ations to fill the job, and that's what I took out of his address, and I claim that that isn't necessa rily so . And then in another l;iook entitled "The British General Election of 1945" - for the con tinuity of parliamentary life it is also desirable that the Speaker of the previous House of Com mons should be elected to the new House .

There was a custom or convention that the Speaker should have an unopposed return in his constituency, and the new House of Commons always re-· elect him as Speaker, even if he is not of the party which has won the election, but electors in the Speaker's constituency are as free as any other citizens are to nominate candidates if they choo se . Even in England then there are times when this 500 or 600 year practice threatens to become a controversial issue.

And I agree with the quotation that I recently made, that I made from this book called "The British General Election of 1945" that the Speaker should stand for election, that he should stand for election in his constituency. And I believe that anybody in that constituency has the right, regardless of what's decided in this Chamber, to oppose Mr. Speaker if he so wishes.

Not to have these two requirements in my opinion creates another "cushy" job, that may be occupied by a so-called expert on parliamentary procedure, and if we want to carry it to the extreme, who may even never have had any practical experience in this House . A permanent Speaker as referred to in the British House can, in my opinion, be a good thing. But not if it has to be arranged in advance of an election between the parties that are already represented in the Chamb er. As far as the appointment of a non,-partisan Speaker, I ask this House -- how can you make a non-partisan appointment?

All appointments that are made by any government in their initial stages are partisan. Even judges that in our country have attained the highest of impar tiality after they have attained their position on the Bench, are appointed by political parties on a partisan -- initially on a partisan basis . The Honourable Member from Brandon read from a Tribune

article and one small piece of that

article I think bears repeating because it emphasizes this point. "Political scientists July 21st, 19 59 . Page 1181

(Mr. Groves, cont'd.) • • • . are weary of such schemes. If the Speaker does not represent an ordinary constituency he stands in danger of becoming a glorified civil servant. ,At the worst the Speakership could turn into a political plum with which a government could reward its friends .

" It would seem to me that the precedent here must be started when the next change of govern ment takes place in Manitoba, and I suggest that that may be a long ways off, At that time, if the new majority of the House chooses the same Speaker of the previous House then, we are well on the way to establishing the custom -- and I emphasize, the cµstom .-- of a permanent Speakership. -- (Interjection) -- MR. SPEAKE R: Are you ready for the question? MR. L. DESJARDINS (st.

Boniface): There is a question I would like to ask the honour able member, if possible.- First of all I should say that I object to the way he spoke of the would-be Speaker -- it would be somebody, any backbencher, anybody could do it, it's not a very important job. Then he said that the judge is just named for political reason and that• s all. I think that that' s not quite right. MR. GROVES: Sir, I didn't say ei_ther of those two things. MR. DESJARDINS: You certainly, excuse me, Mr. Chairman, you certainly gave us the impression at least, that anybody could be a Speaker.

You didn't have to have all those quali ties that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition had mentioned. But the question that I would like to ask: If the Speaker is the man that runs politically in bis constituency and if he's there for any number of years, who is going to _ represent that constituency? I thought our first duty .was to serve that constituency before even our political party. I would like to know who will · represent that constituency, if the Speaker is the same maybe for a number of years. MR. GROVES: Is he asking me a question ..... . MR. ROBLIN: On a point of Order, Mr.

Speaker, I submit that we heard his speech, and that it's not a question, it should not be answered at the present time or else we will break our rule about speaking twice . MR. CAMPBELL: .•..•. if, on a point of order, if the honourable member wants to answer it as a question because after all in fairness to the honourable member, he was quoting from Jennings, I think, rather than giving bis own opinion. If he wants to answer I think he should have the opportunity. MR. GROVES: I think I answered the question, Mr.

Speaker, and when the honourable member sat down I was under the impression that he was making a speech . He looked over at me and I thought perhaps he had asked another question that I had forgotten to answer, that's why I ••. •• MR. T .P. HILLHOUSE, Q. C. (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I wish to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from ste. Rose, that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Chairman presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. ROBLIN : Mr.

Speaker, we're in a bit of a dilemma here -- as I understand that had you been able to speak you would probably have wished to stand this matter . Maybe we should proceed to the next one. MR. CHAIRMAN: Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Selkirk. Second reading of Bill No. 79,

An Act to Incorporate the Red River Exhibition Greyhound Racing Association. The Honourable Member for st. James . MR. D. M. STANES (st. James): Mr. Speaker, I spoke very briefly on this matter on Friday and I did not adjourn the debate. If I do say anything -- and I have nothing more to add - I would be speaking twice. The matter I think is open. MR. BAIZLEY: Mr. Speaker, it appears rather unfortunate that we should have to go to the dogs in this House before members on opposite sides of the Chamber can get together. However, I do believe that we should ii.ve very serious consideration to this Bill.

I believe that the Red River EXhibition is an organization that is quite capable of carrying out very fairly and adequately tfu.s greyhound racing. It may be of interest to members of tbis House to know that greyhound racing was a spectator sport some 25 years ago, and that as many as 8, OOO people here in Winnipeg used tbis spectacle .

I believe also that for a good many years, in fact I believe since Adam was inveigled to take a bite of the apple that man has been inclined to take a calculated risk, and I believe that with so many things today being either immoral, illegal or fattening, and still a good many of us enjoying these things, that

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-1-30
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