Manitoba Hansard — 6 May 2008 (Sitting 36B, 39th Legislature, 2nd Session)

39-2-36b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LX No. 36B – 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 6, 2008 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARCELINO, Flor Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P.

SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1733 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 6, 2008 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Dividing of Trans-Canada Highway Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The seven-kilometre stretch of the Trans-Canada Highway passing through Headingley is an extremely busy stretch of road, averaging 18,000 vehicles daily. This

section of the Trans-Canada Highway is one of the few remaining stretches of undivided highway in Manitoba, and it has seen more than 100 accidents in the last two years, some of them fatal. Manitoba's Assistant Deputy Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation told a Winnipeg radio station on October 16, 2007, that when it comes to highways projects the provincial government has a flexible response program, and we have a couple of opportunities to advance these projects in our five-year plan.

In the interests of protecting motorist safety, it is critical that the dividing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Headingley is completed as soon as possible. We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) to consider making the completion of the dividing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Headingley in 2008 an urgent provincial government priority.

To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation to consider evaluating whether any other steps can be taken to improve motorist safety while the dividing of the Trans-Canada Highway in Headingley is being completed. This is signed by Shauna Mager, Cyrina Lafrenais, J. Clarke and many others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Child-Care Centres Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste.

Rose): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba: These are the reasons for this petition: There is an ongoing critical shortage of child-care spaces throughout Manitoba, particularly in fast-growing regions such as south Winnipeg. The provincial government has not adequately planned for the child-care needs of growing communities like Waverley West where the construction of thousands of homes will place immense pressure on the already overburdened child-care system.

The severe shortage of early childhood educators compounds the difficulty parents have finding licensed child care and has forced numerous centres to operate with licensing exemptions due to a lack of qualified staff. Child-care centres are finding it increasingly difficult to operate within the funding constraints set by the provincial government to the point that they are unable to provide wages and benefits sufficient to retain child-care workers.

As a result of these deficiencies in Manitoba's child-care system, many families and parents are growing increasingly frustrated and desperate, fearing that they will be unable to find licensed child care and may be forced to stop working as a result. In an economy where labour shortages are common, the provision of sustainable and accessible child care is critical. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr.

Mackintosh) to consider addressing the shortage of early childhood educators by enabling child-care centres to provide competitive wages and benefits.

1734 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 To urge the Minister of Family Services and Housing to consider adequately planning for the future child- care needs of growing communities and to consider making the development of a sustainable and accessible child-care system a priority. To urge the Minister of Family Services and Housing to consider the development of a governance body that would provide direction and support to the volunteer boards of child-care centres and to consider the development of regionalized central wait lists for child care.

To encourage all members of the Legislative Assembly to consider becoming more closely involved with the operations of the licensed day-care facilities in their constituencies. This petition is signed by S. Ryan, S. Krochenski, C. Hocking and many, many others. Long-Term Care Facility–Morden Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background for this petition is as follows: Tabor Home Incorporated is a time-expired personal care home in Morden with safety, environmental and space deficiencies.

The seniors of Manitoba are valuable members of the community with in creasing health-care needs requiring long-term care. The community of Morden and the surrounding area are experiencing substantial population growth. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Health (Ms. Oswald) to strongly consider giving priority for funding to develop and staff a new 100-bed long-term care facility so that clients are not exposed to unsafe conditions and so that Boundary Trails Health Centre beds remain available for acute-care patients instead of waiting placement clients.

This is signed by Mary Wiebe, Ginny Peters, Elvira Hiebert, Sigy Hiebert and many, many others. Lake Dauphin Fishery Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: Fishing is an important industry on Lake Dauphin. To help ensure the sustainability of the Lake Dauphin fishery, it is essential that spawning fish in the lake and its tributaries are not disturbed during the critical reproductive cycle.

A seasonal moratorium on the harvesting of fish in Lake Dauphin and its tributaries may help create an environment that will produce a natural cycle of fish for Lake Dauphin, therefore ensuring a balanced stock of fish for all groups who harvest fish on the lake. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Water Stewardship (Ms. Melnick) to consider placing a moratorium on the harvesting of any species of fish on Lake Dauphin and its tributaries for the period April 1 to May 15 annually.

To request the Minister of Water Stewardship to consider doing regular studies of fish stocks on Lake Dauphin to help gauge the health of the fishery and to consider determining any steps needed to protect or to enhance those stocks. Signed by Louis Gancher, Bryce Amendt, Nathan Amendt and many, many others. Pharmacare Deductibles Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly.

These are the reasons for this petition: The NDP government has increased Pharmacare deductibles by 5 percent every year for the past seven years, with the curious exception of the 2007 election year. As a result of the cumulative 34 percent hike in Pharmacare deductibles by the NDP government, some Manitobans are forced to choose between milk and medicine. Seniors, fixed and low-income-earning Manitobans are the most negatively affected by these increases.

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1735 We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To urge the Premier (Mr. Doer) of Manitoba to consider reversing his decision to increase Pharmacare deductibles by 5 percent in budget 2008. To request the Premier of Manitoba to consider reducing health-care bureaucracy, as previously promised, and to consider directing those savings into sustaining Pharmacare and improving patient care. This petition is signed by Hazel Andrews, Florence Phillips, Corrine Carlisle and many, many others, Mr. Speaker. Bill 200, The Waste Reduction and Prevention Amendment Act Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: Plastic bags are harmful to humans, animals and the environment. Toxins from photodegradation, the breakdown of plastic bags, end up in Manitoba's soil, waterways and food supply. Plastic bags take many years to photodegrade and are a blemish on our roadways, parks, streets, hang from bushes and trees and litter our landfills. There are many alternatives readily available, ranging from re-usable bags to biodegradable bags to crates and boxes.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge all members of the Legislative Assembly to consider supporting Bill 200, The Waste Reduction and Prevention Amendment Act, presented by the honourable Member for River Heights, which will ban single-use checkout bags in Manitoba. Signed by James Snidel, Marty Draper, Scott Thurston and many others. Crocus Investment Fund–Public Inquiry Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba.

The background to this petition is as follows: The 2007 provincial election did not clear the NDP government of any negligence with regard to the Crocus Fund fiasco. The government needs to uncover the whole truth as to what ultimately led to over 33,000 Crocus shareholders to lose tens of millions of dollars. The provincial auditor's report, the Manitoba Securities Commission's investigation, the RCMP investigation and the involvement of revenue Canada and our courts, collectively, will not answer the questions that must be answered in regard to the Crocus Fund fiasco.

We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Premier (Mr. Doer) and his NDP government to co-operate in uncovering the truth in why the government did not act on what it knew and to consider calling a public inquiry on the Crocus Fund fiasco. Mr. Speaker, this is signed by R. Allen, L. Throndson, T. Throndson and many, many other fine Manitobans. * (13:40) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Minister of Healthy Living): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to table the Healthy Child Manitoba Supplementary Information for Legislative Review 2008-2009, Departmental Expenditure Estimates.

Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from King Edward Community School 53 grade 5 students under the direction of Mr. Paul Vernaus and Mrs. Irene Okumura. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Bill 37 Government Intention Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, through a series of

1736 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 sneaky legislative amendments, the Premier (Mr. Doer) has, with the introduction of Bill 37, created a regime in Manitoba where the government of Manitoba at taxpayers' expense is free to communicate his message as loudly and as often as it wants outside of election periods. He's left it wide open for special interest groups to communicate as much as they want with Manitobans as long as they're singing the song that he is singing.

At the same time, he's introduced legislation to muzzle political parties and to muzzle Manitoba members of the Legislative Assembly, including his own backbenchers. I want to ask the Premier: Why is it that he thinks he's got a monopoly on communications in Manitoba? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the member opposite spent over $100,000 more on advertising in the last campaign than we did. He also spent twice as much as his predecessor and got less results.

I’ve always believed–The member opposite received a memo from Greg Lyle recommending that they hold on and not call an election at the four-year period, that they use public money to advertise their weaknesses in health care, Mr. Speaker. He won't find that kind of communication in our government. Mr. Speaker, we didn't whine before the '99 election every day that they held on, every day that the chief of staff hung on with his fingernails on the ledge of power. We didn't complain. We didn't whine. We didn't go to the media. We didn't complain about being muzzled. They spent money on the Pan Am Games.

We cheered on the Canadian athletes at the Pan Am Games, and someday the member opposite will find out it's the messenger and the message that wins or loses election campaigns, not whining, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, we will have a chance to talk about his promise to keep balanced budgets in the 1999 election campaign. Mr. Speaker, I don't recall anybody in government in 1999 bringing in bills to try to clamp down on party advertising, bills to try to muzzle MLAs. I don't remember any premier in 1999 hiding from debates.

I don't remember any party leader in 1999 hiding out in backyards to debate the member opposite in election campaigns. But what I do recall from the last campaign was a premier who promised to balance the budget, promised that the power line would not run down the west side of the province, and then he introduces bills coming into this House after the election to muzzle opposition, to muzzle his backbenchers, wide-open communications for his government at taxpayers' expense, wide-open communications for the special interest groups that agree with him. That wasn't our approach then. It's not our approach now.

I want to ask the Premier: Why is it that he thinks he's moved from being a democratically elected Premier to being a monarch, Mr. Speaker? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I remind the House that we have a lot of guests in the gallery here. They came to be able to hear the questions and the answers. The honourable First Minister has the floor. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I point out to members opposite, they spent more money in the last campaign for those ads in front of Earl's restaurant. They spent more money.

They spent over $100,000 more money that we know of, in the [inaudible] Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: –campaign than we did, Mr. Speaker. I believe the claim for partial public financing in the last election campaign was over $600,000 for the Conservative Party. It wa s less than that for our party. So they advertised more. We spent less. One can look at the election results, Mr. Speaker. The people have spoken. You know, all these conditions going into '99, I just want to give– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

I remind members again, we have a lot of students in the gallery that come here to hear the questions and the response and they have the right to hear that. Also, I need to be able to hear the questions and the response from the ministers in case there is a breach of a rule. The honourable First Minister has the floor. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The members opposite accessed the public financing provisions in many of their constituencies, including Fort Whyte, including Concordia. They accessed more money for rebates than we did in the campaign.

They advertised more, over $100,000 more, that we know of, and certainly it's always useful to modernize the rules.

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1737 Members opposite, you know, took four and a half years from 1990 to 1995. They took another four and a half years when they were holding on through the summer of 1999 to the fall of 1999. I said before the last election campaign that we would call the election–if there was no flooding and no federal election, we would call it within a week or two of the last election campaign. We did that. We were fully up front. One of the biggest issues the members opposite have raised is having fixed election dates.

We provided that in the proposed election campaign to give them another bit of balance in the next election campaign. I would suggest to them they worry about their message and their messenger, not all these other things, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, he went into the campaign between Crown corporations and government taxpayer-fund ed advertising with hundreds of thousands. He had hundreds of thousands of dollars in support in his secret deal with one of the public-sector unions going into the election campaign. I want to ask the Premier, who has been Premier for longer than George W.

Bush has been President, why he feels the need now–since he's been Premier for longer than Bush has been President, why does he think now that he can appoint himself king? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, again, members opposite would know that they spent more money in the last election campaign. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Let's have some decorum, please. The honourable First Minister has the floor. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On the issue of third-party advertising, the members opposite opposed it.

There were a number of their surrogates that took it to court, the Taxpayers' Association, many other organizations that are well known to the Conservatives, former Conservative candidates, other people that were very involved on the issue of third party. * (13:50) The sections of the act, because it was in court and I did not want to fight a federal–use taxpayers' money in Manitoba when there was already a case going on, the National Citizens' Coalition, on the third-party issue in Ottawa at the Supreme Court.

We certainly are prepared to listen to any advice the members make on dealing with this issue that they opposed to begin with. I guess they've changed their mind on that position as well. Mr. Speaker, they spent twice as much money in advertising as the last election campaign. According to the public-sector polls that were out there, not that we buy them, but they were up to 40– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Doer: You know, they can't handle the truth, Mr. Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The members opposite spent twice as much as the last campaign. They got less seats. They spent more money than we did in this campaign. They still got less seats. They claimed more money from the taxpayers than we did, and they got more money when the election results were over out of the alleged legislation that they were opposed to. Bill 37 Consultations Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, we were unable to get an answer from the king, so let's try the prince. Under the– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

Members should know by now, I've made this ruling many times, that when addressing other members in the House, it's ministers by their portfolio and other members by their constituencies. Mr. Goertzen: I withdraw that comment, Mr. Speaker. Under The Elections Finances Act in Manitoba, an advisory committee with representatives from all registered political parties is in place to provide advice to the Chief Electoral Officer of Manitoba regarding the act. Prior to changes in 2006 to The Elections Finances Act, this advisory committee met with the Chief Electoral Officer to discuss some of the changes to the act.

Can the Minister of Justice advise Manitobans whether the advisory committee met regarding

1738 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 Bill 37 and the sweeping changes to The Elections Finances Act? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the advisory committee is a function of the deliberations between the Chief Electoral Officer and the advisory committee. It's public record. The recommendations come to a committee of this Chamber that I've sat at, and I think the strongest recommendation that I recall that's come through over and over again is to have a date fixed every four years for an election.

That is contained in the act, and I wonder why members are so opposed to the act. Mr. Goertzen: Well, Mr. Speaker, in 2006, the Premier (Mr. Doer) indicated in committee in regard to changes to The Elections Finances Act that most of the recommendations come into the act from the Chief Electoral Officer and the advisory committee that works for all existing political parties. There's a strong feeling already that Bill 37 was crafted in the backroom by NDP operatives. This legislation is clearly designed by the NDP for the NDP. This advisory committee has not met, I understand, for more than two years.

The recommendations didn't come from the advisory committee. Why is this government hiding and not allowing the advisory committee to meet? Why are they trying to hide the provisions within this bill from Manitobans who deserve to know the truth? Mr. Chomiak: I find it hard to understand what the member– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Chomiak: I find it hard to understand how a bill that's tabled publicly and that is open for everyone to review can be hidden away, Mr. Speaker, firstly. Secondly, it models the federal bill that is in place in Ottawa, the provisions under a federal Conservative government.

The amounts of spending are lower, are lower, than other jurisdictions that have this, Conservative jurisdictions and Liberal jurisdictions. It's in line with the general reform of democratic processes across this country to make for an even playing field, and we do not want to find ourselves in the orgy of spending and difficulties that have occurred in other democracies, particularly to the south of us. Mr. Goertzen: Let me review the facts for the Minister of Justice. The bill was introduced without notice or consultation with the public. It was introduced late in the day and wasn't provided to the media.

The advisory committee which has met in the past to discuss past ch anges to The Elections Finances Act didn't meet on this bill and, in fact, hasn't met for two years. Yet this bill comes with sweeping changes to The Elections Finances Act. The delay and the deflection leads to only one conclusion, that this bill was created by the NDP for the benefit of the NDP. If the NDP is so confident in the provisions within Bill 37, why is there so much secrecy surrounding it, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, I could feel better dealing with the member opposite if I knew every single member there did not take public funding from the Chief Electoral office, from the Province of Manitoba, since they were all elected. I would feel better if members opposite who, when the first election finance bill came in in '83, said they were going to repeal it, did not over 11 years. I would feel more confident if we had [inaudible] Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: – at a press conference and provided the bill, and we'll be having public consultations in Committee of the Whole, Mr. Speaker.

In other words, the member is grandstanding and the member is attempting to make a political statement on something, and, he, himself, takes money from this fund. If he were to return the money, his leader would return the money, then perhaps they might have a point. Bill 38 Government Intent Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): W h e n w e l o o k a t B i l l 3 8 , I t h i n k w e now know why it is that this Premier and government don't want Manitobans to allow opposition politicians to be able to communicate with their constituents. We now know, Mr.

Speaker, why he didn't even discuss Bill 37 with his own caucus. In 1995, Mr. Speaker, this Premier fought against balanced budget legislation. He voted against Bill 2, voted against balanced budgets. In 1998, he said, and I quote: I would never support fiscal conservatism. Then something miraculous happened. He read some polls. He went to the 1999 election

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1739 campaign, and one of his doable, achievable promises, No. 5, was keep balanced budget legislation. That's what he ran on in 1999 and Manitobans believed him. Mr. Speaker, enough Manitobans believed him that they put their trust in this Premier and they elected his government. Now we have, eight years later, the true agenda of this NDP government coming to light in Bill 38. We're going right back to the Member for Concordia of 1998. He said he would never support fiscal conservatism.

Bill 38 guts balanced budget laws, even after he promised Manitobans he would keep them. I want to ask the Premier: Why is he betraying the people who voted for him who said they wanted balanced budgets, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, last year, I believe, the

summary financial budget was balanced at close to $300 million in balanced budget. In 1999, we said– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: In debate, we pointed out the weaknesses of the balanced budget legislation. It didn't include– the pension liability was off the books. We found out after we were elected the health capital was off the books. We also found out the Centra Gas capital was off the books. There were many other items all off the books. The Auditor General, Mr. Singleton, in '99 and in '98, would not testify to the reliability of the books in his Auditor General report.

We still maintained that we would keep the balanced budget legislation in 1999, which we did. We also promised to keep it in 2003, which we did. Following that, Mr. Singleton and then the new Auditor General both recommended that Manitoba go from two sets of books to one set of books. Two sets of books were allowed and legal under the balanced budget legislation. One set of books was recommended under GAAP financial accounting by Mr. Singleton and the current Auditor General of Manitoba. * (14:00) That also was recommended by other outside bodies in the 2007 election.

Before the 2007 election, we said we would go to GAAP financial planning. A promise made in '99, a promise kept on balanced budget legislation. A promise made in '03, we kept it, but in '05-06 the Auditor General recommended we went to GAAP. We said we would do that. We presented our budgets under

summary financial budgets. We have absolutely followed the Auditor General in all of these areas, and we're very pleased that we now have gone from two sets of books under the Conservatives to one set of books under the rules of the Auditor General, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen: What complete and total nonsense, Mr. Speaker, and actually I'm inclined to allow him to have free rein to communicate with Manitobans if that's the way he's going to keep up. The answer about two sets of books, Mr. Speaker, what we're talking about is the fact that the core operations of government should be balanced each and every year.

He shouldn't scoop money out of Hydro and Manitoba Public Insurance and other Crown corporations to mask operating deficits in the core budget of the Province of Manitoba. We should be using Hydro surpluses to pay down Hydro debt, to invest in Hydro assets, to reduce rates for Manitobans. Instead, they want to use it to mask deficits on the operating budget of the government even when he promised in 1999–and it's very simple–No. 5: keep balanced budget legislation. That was his promise, Mr. Speaker. Now he's gutting it.

I want to ask the Premier: Why is he betraying Manitobans, whom he promised, he promised in three successive elections to balance the budget. He's broken that promise. Why, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm shocked that the member is so inadequate in his understanding of the proposal to go from two sets of books to one. Let me explain. Under

summary financial budget, if Manitoba Hydro makes $400 million or $300 million, it goes to the

summary financial budget bottom line. If Manitoba Hydro makes $300 million and there is a $100-million dividend, it doesn't change anything. In other words, under the old act, that would be a benefit to the provincial government finances. Under having one set of books, it's absolutely revenue neutral to the government because Hydro's profit and government's expend- itures are considered together on the same set of books.

1740 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 Similarly, Mr. Speaker, if Tories go out and promise not to sell a Crown corporation and after the election they sell a Crown corporation, it's illegal under this new balanced budget law to show that as a revenue item. It puts clearly to the test of financial auditing. So the member was wrong on his question dealing with the Hydro dividend. He doesn't understand it. I suggest he go back and read it, understand it before he asks another question, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen: The Premier hasn't said anything new at all in that response. It was a nice attempt, Mr.

Speaker, but the fact is what he's saying is that they'll take revenue from Crown corporations, put them in the

summary statements and claim a balanced budget. The issue is for Manitobans on fixed incomes who are paying their Manitoba Hydro bills, for Manitobans on fixed incomes who are paying premiums to MPI. They want to know, Mr. Speaker, that the core budget is being balanced and that money being put into these Crown corporations is being applied and accounted for separately, so there's transparency and openness in terms of our Crown corporations versus the core operations of government. He's letting himself off the hook with this bill. He's gutting the balanced budget law after he promised to keep it.

I want to ask the Premier: Since he can't raise taxes without a referendum under the balanced budget law, he's going to do it through rate increases, how much are seniors and others on fixed incomes going to have to pay to create an illusion of balanced budgets in Manitoba? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, if Hydro took a dividend, in the past under the old balanced budget law, because

summary budget did not include Hydro profits, it would be shown as a dividend. It would not be shown at a revenue-neutral way, because there were two sets of books. Under one set of books, if there's a $300-million surplus in Hydro, if you take $100 million over to government, it's $200 million and $100 million. It still adds up to $300 million. We've kept the provision. There can be no tax increase unless there's a referendum. We kept the issue of dealing with full presentation of having the balanced budget require the unfunded liability of pensions, which is not in the books.

We prohibit the sale of a Crown corporation being shown as a revenue item, which distorted completely the balancing of budgets between 1995 and 1999. We are pleased now that we've gone from two sets of books to one set of books. The Auditor General feels that that's a step forward for the transparency and accounting in Manitoba. That's why I'm glad our Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) has brought it forward for the Legislature. Bill 38 Government Intent Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, I'm sure the Premier (Mr.

Doer) is happy that the Finance Minister brought it forward because now he can snow Manitobans with his

summary budget. A core-based budget shows revenue in and expenditures out, and they have to balance. But right now, I have an urgent message for Manitoba taxpayers: Be afraid; be very afraid. The not-so- balanced-budget legislation proposed by the Minister of Finance is, in effect, a blank cheque issued to a compulsive spender. This Finance Minister has proven that he cannot keep his spending in check. Last year, he overspent the operating budget, Mr. Speaker–the operating budget–by $265 million. In past years, he's raided Manitoba Hydro to feed his addictions.

Now he wants the legislative authority to hide his spending addiction. Why can't the minister live within his means on an annual operating budget? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, here's how the members opposite lived within their means under their old balanced budget legislation. They sold a Crown corporation and used the revenues to balance the budget. They put it in the Fiscal Stabilization Fund, counted it as revenue once. They took it out of the Fiscal Stabilization Fund and put it to the bottom line in the operating budget, counted it as revenue twice.

The Auditor General said, no, you can't count it as revenue twice. Then they went into Lotteries, took an extra $100 million out of Lotteries to balance the budget. Oops, $100 million of illegal borrowing to build casinos. That's where they got the $100 million. All of that is illegal under this law. One bottom line, one set of books, no selling assets to balance the budget. That's a better law in Manitoba. Mr. Borotsik: Mr. Speaker, Manitobans will recognize that that is not the better law when this

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1741 minister can hide all of the revenues from MPI, from MLCC, from Manitoba Lotteries and, by the way, his biggest piggy bank of all, Manitoba Hydro. That's what he wants to get his hands on. He has built in so much wiggle room in this particular legislation, he will never have to balance another budget in his next three terms–three years as Finance Minister. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Borotsik: Well, we'll see, Mr. Speaker. The last time I looked at Hansard, they make some mistakes, but they take them out.

My mistake will probably stay, but the truth of the matter is in the next three years he won't have to balance a budget because after this coming election is when he's going to be responsible to balance the budget. Why can't he stay within his means and quit with the wasteful spending, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I just wish over our next three terms the member would keep asking these questions so we can illustrate to him every single year during those next three years how we will balance the budget. We will balance it every single year on a retrospective, rolling average based on those four years.

We will show how the operating budget is doing with respect to operating revenues. We will show how all the Crowns are doing. We will show how the public schools are doing. We will show how the universities are doing. We will have the broadest reporting require- ments in the history of the province, and we will do it under legislation that has been endorsed by many legitimate parties, including the Accountants Association of Manitoba. * (14:10) Mr. Borotsik: Mr. Speaker, this minister will only have to answer to the public for another three years; I can assure you of that. Mr.

Speaker, this not-so-balanced budget legislation gives the Finance Minister four years to come clean. They didn't co me clean. In 1999 they made some promises to this House and to this province that they never came clean on. They said they were going to do away with hallway medicine. They didn't do away with hallway medicine, a failure. They said they were going to keep balanced budget legislation and this legislation that's tabled before this House right now is not balanced budget legislation.

If they weren't so afraid of it, they would certainly give an opportunity to Manitobans to debate this well into this coming year and the next year, but, no, he's trying to force it down the throats of Manitobans and that's wrong. Why won't he give Manitobans the opportunity to speak against this legislation instead of forcing it down their throats right now? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, when it comes to promises on health care, the member will remember the 10 years, 11 years the members opposite said they would build the Brandon Hospital anew. We did that. We accomplished that.

While the member was on holidays in Florida, we built that hospital–pardon me, Arizona. The reality is under this legislation there will be a broad reporting entity. There will be constraints on being able to sell Crown assets. There will be a requirement to balance the budgets. If Hydro has a bad year, as they did three years ago, that will become part of the rolling average. They won't be able to run away from a bad year. They will have to balance over those four years. That will be the requirement unless it's absolutely extraordinary circumstances as outlined in the legislation. The reality is, Mr.

Speaker, we will balance the budget. The six credit-rating upgrades we received from independent authorities have proved that, and we will prove it again. Pathology Errors Patient Inquiries Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, there are many c oncerned Manitobans who have been diagnosed with cancer who are concerned about the recently reported pathology errors. I'd like to ask the Minister of Health to tell us: Will the cases of all patients who phone the hotline be reviewed, or is the review limited to only the cases reported by this one pathologist? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I thank the member for the question. She's quite right. All members of this House and indeed Manitoba are concerned when we hear that there are questions about pathology testing.

1742 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 I can inform the member that there is a review currently going on that was identified through a critical incident process, reviewing specific cases of one pathologist of that particular complement of tests. There was an initial test of 35 complex cases that has now been broadened in an abundance of caution. I can let the member know that the particular review going on at this time concerns that particular pathologist, but there will be ongoing conversations about pathology safety generally. Mrs.

Driedger: Well, the minister didn't answer the one question as to whether all cases that come in on the hotline will be reviewed. Maybe she can answer that in the next set of questions. Dr. Brock Wright said, and I quote: We have a process in place that catches it. But it wasn't a process that caught the errors. It was another pathologist who brought forward his personal concerns. So I'd like to ask the Minister of Health to tell us: If there is a process that is supposed to catch errors, why did it fail these patients? Ms. Oswald: Mr.

Speaker, I can let the member know that the review that is going on right now is concerning a particular pathologist and the results from those tests. I can also let the member know that the quality assurance processes that exist within pathology and other areas of the health-care system have been created in the same context that all patient safety initiatives are created, and that's in the post-Sinclair and Thomas report inquiries. We know pre-Sinclair, medical errors were swept under the carpet, not spoken of. In the post-Sinclair era, we know that there's an emphasis on sharing medical errors.

So in the cases the member has identified where one pathologist had concerns about another, this is part of the system now, Mr. Speaker. That is how it was caught, and that is how we're exploring to go forward to make sure that there are no adverse outcomes. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, DSM officials told the Free Press that botched diagnostic tests were unlikely in Manitoba, yet at exactly the same time, they were already investigating concerns raised about a pathologist's error rate.

So I'd like to ask the Minister of Health to tell us what has she done to address the conflicting comments made by DSM because they were saying, unequivocally, we can't have botched tests, while they've been spending the last month looking at botched tests. So I'd like to ask the minister what she has done to address these conflicting comments made by DSM because this hardly gives anybody confidence in what is happening out there right now, when we see an erosion of public confid ence if this is allowed to continue without some intervention here by the minister on what DSM has said. Ms. Oswald: Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the member and, indeed, all members of this House that Diagnostic Services Manitoba was created for the very reason to put in place a higher quality of care and a higher quality of standard in pathology and other diagnostics. As I understand, the message in the

article in question was about botched tests being unlikely. The member opposite knows well that when we're talking about pathology tests, these kinds of pathology tests, we're talking about the

interpretation of tests. It's not a yes or a no test, Mr. Speaker. These are very complex tests. In these cases, we know that one pathologist felt the

interpretation was not accurate, and that's why this review is occurring. We'll keep the public updated as we go forward. Disraeli Freeway Repair Project Plans Mrs. Bonnie Mitche lson (River East): I'd like to ask the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs whether he has spoken with or received corres- pondence from the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) regarding the Disraeli Freeway project. Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Intergovern- mental Affairs): I talk to the Member for Elmwood all the time, Mr. Speaker, and I welcome correspondence from all members of the Legislature.

I know the Member for Elmwood, being a good constituency representative, recently wrote me. I think the member has read about that in the newspaper and didn't need to ask that question. Mrs. Mitchelson: We always have known the Member for Elmwood to be upstanding and always tell the truth in this House, unlike some other members on that side of the House. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1743 Mr. Speaker: Order. All members in this House are honourable members and I'm sure they all– information that's brought forward is factual information. I ask the honourable member to withdraw that, please. Mrs. Mitchelson: I will withdraw that, and I will say that the Member for Elmwood is very honourable. I would note that I think we've all seen information in the media saying that he would like to see a six-lane proposal put forward for the Disraeli Freeway. He said that he wants to see the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs step in and make it happen.

What answer, Mr. Speaker, has the minister given to the Member for Elmwood? Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker, one thing I'm not going to do is get into northeast Winnipeg politics here, but I will agree with the member that the Member for Elmwood is honourable and not only honourable, but I think members of this Legislature–and I look to, you know, the Kenaston underpass. I've advocated on behalf of various projects at various times. The MLA for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), representing his constituents, is doing very much the same. The member can certainly see what's happening in the City.

They're going through a consultation process. I know the Member for Elmwood has spoken out on that. I'd be very interested what the Member for River East's view is on that. I think all of us would be, but I would say to the member opposite that when any member of this House, any one of the 57 members of the Legislature, raises an issue with me, I take it very seriously. Even if it's not directly within our jurisdiction, I work very well with 198 municipalities and [inaudible] those concerns. Orthopedic Surgery Wait Times Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, Dan Martens, who is in the gallery today, injured his foot in the spring of 2006. Two years later he's caught in uncertainty by this NDP health-care system. You know, it took a year, but finally in April of 2007, he was told he had reached the point where he was on the list to see the orthopedic surgeon he needed to see. Now, a year later, he is still waiting in spite of being in a lot of pain because of his injured ankle. * (14:20) The Minister of Health (Ms. Oswald) knows full well that with her focus on hips and knees, ankles have been neglected.

I want to ask the Minister of Health whether she can tell the Legislature today what her plans are, after eight and a half years of government not solving this issue, what her plans are to achieve better care for individuals with ankle problems and needing ankle surgery in this province. Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for the question. I thank the member for bringing fo rward some details about an individual who's in the gallery today.

I know that I will be very interested to hear more about this particular case so that we can do whatever we can to assist in navigating the sy stem and in bringing that wait time down. I profoundly regret the discomfort that this individual might be going through. We know that when we came to office, we made a commitment to reduce the wait time for lifesaving treatment for cancer and cardiac. We now have the best wait times in the country, the lowest, that is, on that front. We've had dramatic results on quality of life, as the member has cited, on hips and knees.

We've got more work to do, and I'm very interested to hear further details about this constituent to see what we can all do together to help. Mr. Gerrard: The problem is that when you've got somebody who has waited two years after his injury and he has still not seen the orthopedic specialist that he needs to see because of the way the system works in this province, that there is a problem. There needs to be some sort of provincial bone and joint health network, perhaps like Alberta, which is able to co- ordinate things and make sure things don't drop through the cracks again, again and again.

I ask the minister: What is she going to do to make sure that those with ankle injuries–the same is true for shoulder and elbow injuries and other problems–can get orthopedic bone and joint health care promptly when they need it? Ms. Oswald: Mr. Speaker, and again, I want to say to the member opposite that I look forward to learning more about this particular case so we can work together to assist this individual. One of the things I can say to the member, about which I think he may be aware, is one of the things that we have been able to do to have very good progress in the

1744 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 area of hips and knees, not only in bringing together the orthopedic centre of excellence at Concordia Hospital using clinical assists in a two-operating room model to increase the number of surgeries, but one of the keys to that success is having doctors centralize their wait lists and bring those lists together in order for patients to have more access, putting the patient first on that journey. I hope he can help his friends get on board. Bill 37 Government Intent Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, we need to be very clear in terms of what Bill 37 is doing in terms of limiting the ability of in particular opposition members to be able to communicate important messages to Manitobans. The government is proposing in this legislation to put in a mailing cap, a first of its kind in the province of Manitoba. The Premier (Mr.

Doer) knows full well that the biggest impact it'll have will be a negative impact on the opposition parties of this Legislature; in particular, I would argue, individuals such as myself, who already has limited rights because I don't even have the ability or the right to attend LAMC meetings. The Premier is doing this–it's not fair–while at the same time he allows the government to spend whatever it is that he wants. If the Premier wants to be a king, he should go to Burger King where he can get a free crown. My question to the Premier is– Mr. Speaker: Order. Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Yes, Mr. Speaker, LAMC, which is responsible for the mailings, has consistently overbudgeted on printing allowances, plus the member gets three franks every year. Mr. Speaker, the member was a member of this House when a previous government reduced the mailings to two and reduced it. It's now at three franks and there's a budget and we're always over budget and we're trying to keep under a budget. In Ottawa, they've gone $7 million over their mailing budget. We're talking about partisan mailings into constituencies other than the member's own constituency.

There's a budget that has to be lived with– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: We've seen some of the examples of partisan mailings, but the point is we want to be on budget. The member will have access to the same mailings he had before. The budget is bigger, Mr. Speaker, on a variety of functions. The member doesn't talk about that. As long as he follows the rules, he'll have as much or more mailings as he had in the past, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Manitoba Movement Centre Fundraiser Mr.

Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, since 1958 Manitobans have enjoyed the delights of The Original Pancake House on Pembina Highway. This morning I had the pleasure of attending a charity event there in support of a wonderful cause, along with the Member for River East (Mrs. Mitchelson) and other members of this House. We served a delicious breakfast to hundreds of hungry Winnipeggers in support of The Movement Centre of Manitoba. I'd like to thank Margie Nelson, the staff and volunteers from the Movement Centre for the wonderful work that they do.

This organization works with children and adults living with physical disabilities to improve their health and mobility. Their outstanding efforts have helped to improve the lives of Manitobans living with cerebral palsy, multiple sclerosis, stroke, head injuries and Parkinson's disease. Using conductive education, a holistic approach, the Movement Centre empowers young people to achieve new levels of mobility and independence. I have volunteered in support of their efforts on numerous occasions as I know how grateful the clients and families who use their services are, and what a wonderful job they do.

All who attended this event appreciated the opportunity to support the Movement Centre of Manitoba. I was part of a brigade of servers, including Hannah Guttormson from École Robert H. Smith, Winnipeg City Police Chief Keith McCaskill, City Councillor Jeff Browat y, Larry McIntosh from Peak of the Market, renowned children's entertainer,

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1745 Fred Penner, Max Poulin from the Winnipeg Goldeyes, Matt Sheridan and Kenny Ploen representing present and past Blue Bomber greatness, Jill Officer, Manitoba's own champion curler, Laurie Mustard, Steve Thompson, Maralee Caruso and many other local media and many, many others. Buzz and Boomer, Mick E. Moose and Goldie were also on hand to entertain those in attendance. I also congratulate Wally and Monty Guberman, along with their families and staff, on 50 years of success at the Pancake House.

I know we sincerely appreciate their support of the Movement Centre and this wonderful event. Thank you. Friends of the Snow Lake Firemen Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): As we know, fire protection is a huge issue for any community, but it becomes an even larger challenge for northern communities. I vividly recall a funeral in Pukatawagan a short while ago where we mourned the death of three young boys who tragically died in a trailer fire. Later, another victim of that fire died in a Winnipeg hospital. Fire protection is serious business and it requires serious periodic upgrading and modernizing.

For example, Snow Lake is taking proactive measures in fire protection. The town is replacing its aging fire truck. The town's current truck has served the community for 30 years and everyone in Snow Lake realizes that it has done its duty and then some. The fundraising for the town's new fire truck is being spearheaded by the Frie nds of the Snow Lake Firemen who have raised over $30,000 in just over two months, with the aim of raising $300,000 for the new truck.

On March 12, the fundraising received a major boost when the Snow Lake Health Auxiliary presented Friends of the Snow Lake Firemen Chairperson Bev Erickson and Fire Chief Bob Forsyth with a cheque for $20,000. Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the hard work and the tireless efforts of the Friends of the Snow Lake Firemen who have taken it upon themselves to ensure that Snow Lake residents will always be adequately protected in the unfortunate event of a fire.

We also thank the donors for their generosity and the volunteer firefighters for sacrificing their personal time in order to strengthen our collective security. Well done, Snow Lake. Thank you. Manitoba Soldiers in Afghanistan Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I recently had the honour to meet Carl and Fern Smorang, parents of Barclay Smorang, who is a soldier currently serving on the Provincial Reconstruction Team with the Fort Garry Horse in the Canadian Armed Forces in Afghanistan. Canada assumed responsibility for the Kandahar Provincial Recon- struction Team or PRT in August 2005.

Twenty-five Provincial Reconstruction Teams throughout Afghanistan help the democratically elected government of Afghanistan extend its authority and ability to govern, rebuild the nation and provide services to its citizens. The PRT concur- rently works on projects that have impacts in the long, medium and short term. The most important achievements will be those which bring about long- term sustainable benefits to the Afghan population. That being said, immediate need, quick impact projects are also being carried out across the province. Mr.

Smorang contacted my office, wondering if there was something that we in Charleswood could do to show our support for the Canadian soldiers currently serving in Afghanistan. In particular, there are 25 soldiers from Manitoba serving there and three are from Charleswood. * (14:30) While visiting Westdale Junior High for the I Love to Read Month, I told a group of grade 9 students about his father's request. Their enthusiasm was wonderful, and they agreed to prepare a package with letters and artwork for us to give to Mr. Smorang.

Karen Body, a teacher at Westdale Junior High, agreed to co-ordinate this plan, and her support was greatly appreciated. Following are some of the comments made by the students on the posters: Thank you for serving. You're cool. Keep up the good work. Good job. Good luck. Thanks for your bravery. We love all of you. In addition to the letters and artwork, I sent a package including a Manitoba flag, provincial pins, a card, and some photos. Mr. Smorang arranged to have this package delivered to the Armed Forces headquarters where it will be flown over to the Manitoba soldiers in Afghanistan.

I want to express my deep appreciation to the soldiers from Charleswood and Manitoba and all of

1746 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 Canada who are serving our country at this time and also to the students who so enthusiastically volunteered to do this for them. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. African, Black and Caribbean Communities Mr. Bidhu Jha (Radisson): I rise before the House today to pay tribute to the African, Black and Caribbean communities in our province and to the contributions they have made to our multicultural identity. As I see the world emerging with new dimension of human values, of equality amongst all, Mr.

Speaker, I feel extremely happy to see that dreams of social reformers are being realized. In celebrating the Black History Month, Mr. Speaker, we all realize how freedom and social justice have brought us all together to live in community as brothers and sisters. Our universal values have, in the true sense, made Manitoba a global village. In the past year alone, Manitoba has benefited greatly from the arrival of over 10,000 immigrants from all over the world who have chosen to settle on our province.

During Black History Month, this last February, I was privileged to attend a number of events highlighting the culture of Manitobans with African and Caribbean roots. In particular, Mr. Speaker, I was honoured to attend the African, Black and Caribbean Communities Initiative, Black History Month Conference, and to bring greetings on behalf of the provincial government, joined by the honourable Lieutenant-Governor and the honourable members from the Legislature. Mr.

Speaker, the conference presented a wonderful opportunity for these groups to meet with the government, the community organizations, and discuss issues like youth, seniors, community services and the political participation, cultural expressions of the African, Black and Caribbean communities in our province. I applaud the African, Black and Caribbean Communities Initiative members and their effort to fostering unity and co-operation within the diverse communities.

In particular, I would like to commend Alix Jean-Paul and the other members of the organization for their leadership and excellent work they do in their efforts for the organization of the event. Mr. Speaker, I spoke with great pride to mention about the great things taking place where we see an African-American as a fro ntrunner for the race of being the next president of the U.S.A. What a change. We in Manitoba have been always advocating to building an inclusive society that embraces all culture, religions and traditions.

In a society as diverse as this one, however, it is important to remember that our differen ces unite us all, and I want to thank the African, Black and Caribbean communities for their initiative in modelling that unity amongst all. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Rosalinda Natividad-Cantiveros Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Earlier today, Mr. Speaker, I was in the Legislative Library where I saw a copy of the Filipino Journal, which brings me to share with all members the following sentiments. Rosalinda Natividad-Cantiveros was born in the Philippines in 1946 and immigrated to Canada in July of 1974.

Earlier this year, on March 4, Linda passed away. She was married to Rod and had two wonderful sons both, Ron and John. She was a journalist, educator, author, community leader, a volunteer and a good friend. It is important to recognize that Linda adopted Canada with all her heart, but her passion and love for the Philippines never subsided. Her passion to preserve Filipino heritage and culture here in Canada was admirable, and let there be no doubt, her impact went far beyond the Filipino community.

I, for one, have personally benefited by her friendship and the way in which she made me feel a part of the community. It was through individuals like Linda that allowed me to have a love and passion for the Filipino people as a whole. Her hard work, hospitality and kindness were inspirational. Linda ran as a Liberal candidate back in 1995, and I have indicated in the past her candidacy under the Liberal Party gave me immense pride. Linda always made time for me when it came to talking about areas of interest that we shared in common.

She had a passion for getting immigrant credentials recognized, for standing up against racial intolerance and defending members of the Filipino community that were being exploited in so many ways. Mr. Speaker, she was involved in so many nonprofit organizations, whether it was Folklorama, Rainbow Stage or the cancer walk and so many more. But I do want to leave one final point in terms of her volunteer. Her passion and commitment to the

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1747 Philippine Canadian Centre of Manitoba, better known as PCCM, was second to no other, and today the centre is a part of her legacy to the Filipino community. I thank you for the opportunity to share those words, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, would you please canvass the House to seek unanimous consent to amend the Estimates sequence as follows: Room 255, Estimates of Science, Technology, Energy and Mines to be considered after Estimates of Manitoba Seniors and Healthy Aging Secretariat are concluded. Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to amend the Estimate s sequence as follows: Room 255, Estimates of Science, Technology, Energy and Mines to be considered after Estimates of Manitoba Seniors and Healthy Aging Secretariat are concluded? Is there agreement? [Agreed] There is agreement. Mr.

Chomiak: Pursuant to rule 31(8), I'm announcing that the private member's resolution to be considered next Tuesday will be put forward by the honourable Member for The Maples (Mr. Saran). The title of the resolution is Komagata Maru. Mr. Speaker: Pursuant to rule 31(8), it's been announced that the private member's resolution to be considered next Tuesday will be one put forward by the honourable Member for The Maples, the title of the resolution is Komagata Maru. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the House. I wonder if we might resolve the House to Committee of Supply. Mr.

Speaker: The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. Would the appropriate Chairs please go to their respective rooms. In the Chamber will be Competitiveness, Training and Trade; Room 255 will be Intergovernmental Affairs; and Room 254 will be Family Services and Housing. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES AND HOUSING * (14:50) Madam Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Family Services and Housing. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): The budget this year provides almost 1.2 billion for the Department of Family Services and Housing. That is an overall increase of over 17 million or 6.2 percent over the '07-08 adjusted vote.

There is, of course, a number of key areas for investment, notably affordable housing, persons with disabilities, increased funding for Child and Family Services and, of course, the start of the five-year child care strategy. In '07, we introduced the multiyear 104.5-million HOMEWorks! initiative, as part of our HOUSINGFirst four-pillar strategy for affordable housing for lower-income Manitobans. The budget continues support for the rollout of HOMEWorks!. Just last week, I had the opportunity to announce the status of the affordable housing strategy.

Across Manitoba it is at work already, to build, rehabilitate or repair 1,366 units. In the first year of HOMEWorks!, 39 million was allocated or earmarked; 48 million more will be allocated or earmarked in year two. Notably, in year two, funds will be included to build the first Manitoba housing multifamily units in 15 years. Indeed, on Friday, I was able to go to Brandon to announce that that city would be one of three cities in the province to get a MHA or Manitoba Housing build on land that we have negotiated with the City of Brandon for. They're contributing that land to the initiative.

We were also able to announce that of the 1,366 units, 722 are being rehabilitated which allows them to remain on the market then as stock for affordable housing. Three hundred and sixteen of the 1,366 units will be new units, a quarter of them with rent

1748 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 supplement, 75 will be home ownership units and 24 will be co-op units. Additionally, in '08-09, 24 million is being allocated to fund capital repairs to the existing public housing stock owned by Manitoba Housing. This follows on our announcement on December 13 of the transformation of Manitoba Housing. The $10.84-million building foundations action plan was announced at that time and the 24 million for increasing revitalization of the existing stock by way of whether it's new roofs, ventilation projects, enhancements to the building envelopes and new windows.

That's a very sizable and historic commit- ment actually over three years at $72 million for that, but many other components to the Building Foundations initiative. The budget will provide funding of 3.5 million to extend the Manitoba shelter benefit to include eligible non-disabled single adults and childless couples who are on EIA. As well, we will be introducing a portable housing benefit as a pilot project for persons with mental illness.

That will be a new transitional shelter benefit for eligible–I should say, and, in addition, there will be a new transitional shelter benefit for eligible, non-disabled single individuals and childless couples who leave welfare for work. We announced the details of that today. The total announcement today is worth $4.3 million, which includes not only just the enhancements to recognize the increasing rental costs, but, as well, some components of the Rewarding Work strategy, one called Get Started.

It's a one-time benefit to help people who leave welfare to work to help them pay the costs related to starting a new job, such as work tools. The Rewarding Work Health Plan was also announced today, and that will extend coverage for single parents and persons with disabilities who leave welfare for work, to cover prescription drugs and dental and optical services for up to two full years after leaving welfare. There are different start dates to the different components of that, which is another key part of our anti-poverty strategy.

The '07 budget introduced Rewarding Work, and I don't think I need to say more about that right now other than what was in today's announcement, building on the child benefit, the initiative to recognize that some people need a longer training period with supports, so that we can enhance the quality of their employment as well as several other components of rewarding work. Services for persons with disabilities remains, of course, a very important area for the department.

We, in December, for example, announced our new initiative called marketAbilities to help get people with disabilities off welfare and into employment. The budget before us increases funding for the Supported Living Program by $12.4 million, which will provide opportunities for more adults with a mental disability to receive residential day and other support services. In addition, Children's Special Services has been allocated an additional $1.4 million to expand therapy services.

We've also, as a very important area, significantly increased resources in this budget for Child and Family Services with an additional $39.8 million in '08-09. That's an 11.1 percent increase over last year's adjusted vote. Family Violence Prevention Program is receiving an additional infusion of $1.3 million. Manitoba's program, I understand, is recognized as one of the most comprehensive in the country, supporting 34 community organizations throughout the province.

We are building on our announcement from November where we put in place an historic $2.6-million investment for shelter security for children exposed to violence through a fund called At the Roots and for work for stability and training. We also have a very significant launch of Family Choices; that is the five-year agenda for early learning and child care in Manitoba which was announced last Monday. The funding for child care has increased significantly since 1999, I believe, doubling the investment in child care.

An additional $5 million in spending to improve access to quality child care and funding more spaces, enhancing salaries of educators by 3 percent effective July 1, and having a new special wage adjustment are components of this year's child care strategy as year one. In addition to that, though, there are amounts from Advanced Education and Training to equalize tuition costs at Red River College, outside of Winnipeg campuses at Steinbach and Portage, as I recall.

As well, there is a significant contribution of $2.5 million from Education in year, in order to contribute to capital enhancements so that we can locate more child-care spaces in schools, preferably in surplus space in those schools. Those are some of the priority areas, but I just wanted to add that there's another initiative that is

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1749 new in the department and we call it the Cross- Department Coordination Initiatives. It's a joint initiative with Manitoba Health and Manitoba Healthy Living. A senior respected official has been assigned as well as other ke y officials to work across the departments, so that we can build on the necessary initiatives to support the vulnerable populations with the focus on homelessness, housing and supports for seniors as well as persons living with mental-health issues. Those are my opening comments.

I look forward to the discussion, the advice and questions of the critic. Madam Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic have an opening statement? Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Mr. Minister, for giving me the Coles Notes editions. I think we're going to get a lot more into detail on some of these issues that–once again, I will be dealing with the CFS issues in particular, which is my critic's portfolio, and Bonnie Mitchelson will be dealing with the Housing issues and– Madam Chairperson: Excuse me.

We refer to members by their constituen cy or ministers by their portfolio. Mr. Briese: The critic for Housing will handle the Housing portfolio, sorry. Madam Chairperson: Thank you. Mr. Briese: There are a number of things that I want to get into on Child and Family Services with a little more depth. There are some that are new initiatives of yours and there are some that are old initiatives that I have some concerns about how well they're working. I don't think I'll go a whole lot further on an opening statement. I expect the minister has some staff that he wants to bring to the table.

I think, if it's helpful, we can probably arrange it so that you don't have to keep all the staff here all the time if you want that, if that's helpful to you. Madam Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the minister's salary is the last item considered for a department in the Committee of Supply. Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 9.1.(a), contained in Resolution 9.1. At this time we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table and we ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Mr.

Mackintosh: Sitting next to me is the deputy minister, Martin Billinkoff. Next to Martin is Sheila Lebredt. She's the ADM for Administration and Finance. Next to Sheila is Carolyn Loeppky, ADM for Child Protection, Child and Family Services. Madam Chairperson: We thank the minister. Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of this department chronologically or have a global discussion? Mr. Briese: I would prefer a global discussion. Mr. Mackintosh: That's fine. Madam Chairperson: Thank you.

It is agreed then that questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner with all resolutions to be passed once questioning has concluded. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Briese: There are a number of the housekeeping issues that I kind of like to work on first. I know in the Estimates book there's a flow chart on page 7 that, I think, gives us most of the things that we need out of the organizational chart. I would like to know, though, how many of those positions are open at the moment. * (15:00) Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, there are some acting positions and some doubling up of tasks right now, but, to strictly answer the question, under Housing, that's an area that is undergoing some significant change as a result of the Building Foundations initiative and the strengthening of the executive functions there. So the housing services director is currently vacant, and the housing programs position that was formerly filled by Terry Wotton is currently vacant. Terry has accepted a position with CMHC. Over in Family Violence Prevention, that director position is currently vacant.

Paulette Fortier is acting, and a competition is under way to fill that important job. In Child Protection, Ms. Loeppky is

1750 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 acting, and that position is going to be filled very shortly. Madam Chairperson: Just prior to recognizing the honourable Member for Ste. Rose, I just want to remind everyone in attendan ce that, in light of the fact that we are in committee, if everyone could turn their phones to vibrate so that they won't be ringing audibly, that would be much appreciated. Mr. Briese: Just led to a question from your answer there. Who is handling the housing right now then if somebody was contacting there?

Because I know my own community is in some of that right now, so who would they be contacting? I know they were in contact with Terry Wotton before. Mr. Mackintosh: The contact for the member's community would be Roy Kirby, and he'll be familiar, I know, with the challenges in the constituency. I think he's very familiar, actually in HOMEWorks! and the fort-builder, you know, the pockets of help that could be available for the member. Mr. Briese: I'd like a list of the political staff that's in the minister's office and their positions and whether they're full time or part time, please. Mr.

Mackintosh: The current list of political staff comprises the following: Fiona Shiells is special assistant; Jessica Irvine is executive assistant but works in the constituency because that's, you know, as part of that standard arrangement; Felix Meza as policy adviser; Jenny Opazo, intake case co- ordinator, and Maeghan Dewar, the project co- ordinator. Mr. Briese: Another number I'd like from you is the number of staff currently employed in the department. Mr. Mackintosh: The number of staff in the department at last count was 2,428 in the Family Services component. Manitoba Housing and Renewal is 94.

The Manitoba Housing Authority is 339. The direct service workers, that's with the MGEU component, is 1,009 and the direct service workers, and that's in the CUPE component, 410. So I have a total of 4,280. That's not the FTE count, but that's the total number of staff. Mr. Briese: That's a small town. I guess where that leads to now is: What is the vacancy rate that your department is running at? I know there's usually an ongoing vacancy rate and I'd like to know what the percentage is. Mr.

Mackintosh: In Family Services and Housing, we have about 11 percent vacancy, which, I note, is down from just over 12 percent a year ago. Mr. Briese: I thought I had a different figure than that for a year ago out of the Estimates, but I'll take that. Are you actively trying to fill those positions? Are they posted? Are they out there, right now, most of them, or are they positions that have been sitting open for quite some period? Mr.

Mackintosh: The deputy advises that, in terms of numbers from last year, the vacancy rate that I gave is effective March 28, 2008, and the number I gave for last year was March 30. So the number that may have been in Estimates last year might have been in the fall. But we can look at reconciling that. Now, in terms of the number of vacancies, the usual is to fill those vacancies with competitions on an ongoing basis. Mr.

Briese: In addition to that, does the department contract out a number of things, like, I'm trying to think of the words–what kind of contracts do you let out in the department for various services? I don't think you need to go down to very small numbers. If it's something that's over $25,000 or $30,000, what kind of contracts do you contract out? Mr. Mackintosh: There are different kinds of arrangements with outside service providers. For example, in the area of Housing, we have contractual relations with about, at last count I had, it was about 440 or so organizations.

In the area of Child Care, there are over 580; Child and Family Services, we have over 20 there, and about 200 more in Family Violence and supportive living and children's services. So we're looking at over 1,200 agencies or organizations that we have contracted relationships with. Then, in addition to that, you would have contracts. For example, Manitoba Housing, maybe, would be contracting with organizations for services or materials for the BUILDINGFoundations initiative, for example.

So perhaps the member would want to break down the kind of contracts, and maybe we can drill down and provide further information there. * (15:10) Mr. Briese: I'll stick with the CFS and child care and family violence ones, if I may. I'd be interested to know what is in that 580. What is the breakdown? Is that the agencies? Is that the shelters that are

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1751 provided? Are they cons idered staff of the department, or are they basically contracts that you sign with various organizations and agencies? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, just in the area of family violence, just very quickly, I have a convenient breakdown here where we fund 10 women's crisis shelters. There are four residential second-stage housing programs and four women's resource centres. In addition, there are three urban support programs to access or exchan ge services, and there's another specialized program.

Then, when you go to the area of the Child and Family Services division, as opposed to Family Violence in particular, you have many, many collateral services. I mean, there's a list here, but I can give some examples that might illustrate the kind of organizations that provid e services that are within the mandate of the department. The Addictions Foundation is one; some of them that are larger: the Family Centre of Winnipeg; of course, the Child and Family authorities; MaMawi- Wi-Chi-Itata Centre; Macdonald Youth Services; Marymound; New Directions.

Maybe I can give some other examples of where we have arrangements: Andrews Street Family Centre, in my part of the world; the Aurora Family Therapy Centre; big brothers and sisters, including in Neepawa, I notice here; Brandon Friendship Centre; the Canadian Centre for Child Protection, I'm proud to say; Churchill Health Centre; Compassionate Friends. So those are some examples–well, maybe, Elizabeth Hill Counselling. That might be through Family Violence Prevention, but there may be other services there, I'm just thinking.

Oh, here's an important one, the Health Sciences Centre, the Child Protection Centre there. People may not realize that that is funded through Family Services and not the Department of Health, although it is thought of as primarily a medical or forensic service for abused children. Dr. Charlie Ferguson is the head of that centre, but they also provide social work functions, other supports for families and children and we're working on an exciting project with them.

Ka Ni Kanichihk, that's worth mentioning because Leslie Spillett is the key progenitor of that organization which is an Aboriginal-run organi- zation, relatively new, providing some great programs including specialized foster resources for sexually exploited children. But, as well, they're providing a program that we're helping to fund called a buddy service. I think there are other opportunities that we look forward to partnering with them on. Klinic is another one, EVOLVE, Knowles Centre, I think a well-respected organization that provides many services, L'Entre-temps des Franco- Manitobaines.

So those are some exam ples there. Moving into other areas, we could get into the supported living, but I don't know if the member wants to pursue that. He said child care. It's over 580 agencies under the child-care umbrella. We would be looking there at the child-care centres across Manitoba and, of course, there's a funding formula that goes along with that. In the area of disability programs and Employment and Income Assistance, St.

Amant is one that jumps up here off the page; Independent Living Resource Centre; CNIB, they do some children's special services work; Community Respite Services; Society for Manitobans with Disabilities is a very large contracted party. The children's program there, the Communication Centre for Children and Therapy Outreach, are the components. I mentioned St. Amant, but the Applied Behaviour Analysis initiative is largely focussed at St. Amant and that's for children with autism. Then Main Street Project.

I'm pleased Siloam Mission now, and if the member's had an opportunity to see their facility there, but they are a new agency with us and we're just hammering out the SPA to accompany that. We started per diem funding there and realized that that wasn't as useful as we had anticipated and we've converted that to block funding now. Salvation Army, Centre Flavie-Laurent, then we've got Association for Community Living. So those are some examples just to give the member a sense as to the kinds of organizations that are included in those numbers.

I think almost every social service agency in Manitoba with only rare exception would be funded by the department and would form part of the safety net that we tend to provide for Manitobans who are vulnerable. So, hope that answers th e question. I don't know if the member wants others. We could certainly provide lists of those orga nizations if the member wants to drill down further. Mr. Briese: You just answered my next question. I was wondering if you would share those lists with us. I don't need them today, but, at some point in

1752 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 time, I would appreciate getting the lists of the various agencies. * (15:20) Mr. Mackintosh: Just to make it clear then, I've discovered what an amount of work this is, although this one might not be very difficult. It looks like we've got that ready to go, but, just to make sure the member then–would the member like all of the agencies, or is there a certain area, or is it just Child and Family or child care that the member is interested in, or all of the agencies that the department contracts with or has funding relation- ships with? Mr.

Briese: It would be very helpful to have them all if that's not too onerous, because it gives us an idea of what's being fund ed from provincial coffers, too. Mr. Mackintosh: Well, perhaps what we can do then, is we'll break it down into categories. It might make it easier for the reader to discern the different areas of investment. Mr. Briese: Thank you. I would appreciate that. Just in follow-up, you mentioned Siloam Mission, and, yes, I did have the opportunity to go through Siloam Mission.

When we were there, it's my recall that they told us that they were almost 100 percent privately funded, like out of donations and such things. There was some quite small grants, I think, from the Province in the scope of their operation. I'd like a little more detail on what kind of an arrangement–you indicated their arrangement had changed. I am just wondering in what way and what levels the provincial funding is going to now because I think it's a wonderful facility and I would like to know how much the Province got involved in it. Mr.

Mackintosh: I got to know the good people at Siloam quite well over my brief tenure as minister, and I am really heartened by their devotion to their mission, and as well, though, to how great that organization fits with the array of other organizations that we work with, and I'll explain it. I understand that, initially, we were approached to help to fund the cost of the shelter there.

Specifically the beds, and as a result of our analysis, we agreed to fund them on a formula of per diem rates for persons on employment and income assistance because they were living there and that was a reasonable way to fund them. After a brief period of time, it was realized that actually very few of the individuals who are sheltered there were enrolled in employment and income assistance.

They have, for a variety of reasons, not shown up on the welfare rolls, and some of the thinking is that they have been denied further benefits for refusing to comply with conditions or employment expectations, or because they are not open to interventions of any kind. You know, they're an intervention or treatment-resistant population, or, and this is also interesting, because they're employed. There is a sizable percentage of individuals who, from time to time, use the shelter at Siloam who are actually employed, whether temporarily or other- wise, and may be in between jobs.

So there are all kinds of combinations of reasons why the EIA per diem formula didn't work as well to support that organization because they needed something sustainable and we had put aside certain dollars based on thinking that the formula would work. So the department went back to the table with Siloam to look at how we could help them in a more meaningful way. As a result, just two or three months ago, we concluded and the government agreed on an agreement whereby we would fund them in block. I understand that for '08-09, there's just over $360,000 that would flow to Siloam for shelter costs.

Now, what I can say in addition is this organization clearly has a great base. It has a very live fundraising capacity. Indeed, I joked with Mr. Mohan last time I was there that I get more mail from them than the New Democratic Party for fundraising. And, by the way, we've been responsive, because the needs are great and the organization is great. They have that base for fundraising and, indeed, as the member might recall, the boiler went on them. They were in a crisis situation and, lo and behold, a private-sector individual, an anonymous donor, provided the funding for them to remedy that situation.

There is that fundraising capacity, but additionally, there is a tremendous volunteer capacity that they have generated. They have everything from students to members of the host, the sponsoring church, but way beyond that. I think, when we see that kind of private-public partnerships, that it's a great model for us to try to expand. Quite frankly, I've had some discussions and the department has with Siloam in terms of whether there are some other opportunities for us to work with Siloam to provide even greater enhanced

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1753 services for the clients, the residents. I can't recall what they call the Manitobans that have come there. I can't recall if they use the word "clients," or "patrons" I believe is the word that they have chosen carefully. So we'll continue to look at that over the year because we are keen to see how we can more effectively deal not only with the crises that homelessness is, but what preventative capacity we can build.

When I hear directly from those who work at Siloam, I listen carefully because they do have great insights into what triggers homelessness and what could be done differently to reduce the risk of that. I thought that maybe that's a worthwhile Q and A we just did because, just in conclusion, I would like to see us enter into more of those kinds of arrangements. There are other organizations out there that are somewhat similar, perhaps not as robust as Siloam, but they are a wo nderful organization, and I'm very proud that we have that as part of the continuum of services that address homelessness in Winnipeg. Mr.

Briese: I think you probably neglected one when we toured there, and I think it's a wonderful organization. I think the clinic in the building was a large private donation, too, if I remember right. I am somewhat curious, though, just for the record: When you do block funding, what's the process you follow? I'm not averse to it, I'm just wondering what kind of an agreement do you enter into, and what is the reporting back aspect of it. * (15:30) Mr. Mackintosh: As I said, there was initially an analysis of the number of beds that were expected to be utilized each at a daily rate.

So, when the original formula didn't work out, it's my understanding, then, that the amount of beds, which number 60, at the daily rate was just converted then to a grant. We do expect that there will be further discussions about whether more funding would be called for and we look forward to those discussions.

In the meantime, in terms of accountability measures, I'm advised that there are reports on bed utilization that are provided, and based on that interim arrangement, we're constructing with them a service purchase agreement, so that on a go-forward basis we have a good accountability measure that is workable, that is realistic, and that is a good measure of utilization so that we can move, then, ahead, perhaps, with othe r arrangements that are even more beneficial for the patrons there. Indeed, yes, the member is right. The medical clinic was most striking and I believe that it's named after Mr.

Sair–or was it Dr. Sair? [interjection] Dr. Sair, I think he was a pharmacist, I think, practising on Notre Dame Avenue. Yes, that's a tremendous operation that they have there. Mr. Briese: There are a couple of other–we got into more discussion there on the kind of housekeeping questions that I ask, but one–and I'm sure you're prepared for it because we usually ask it–is ministerial travel and what trips the minister took and what staff went along and how those trips were paid for. Mr. Mackintosh: Well, this time I've got the list 'cause last time I missed one I had to put in later on.

The request, I take it, would be for travel outside the province? [interjection] Yes, the member confirms that it's travel outside of the province. I'll just go through the list. I don't know which of these actually were dealt with in the fall in Estimates. It seems like we were just here. I can't recall at that time what the time period of the request was, but maybe I'll go through the list that I have at least for–starting in August of '07. That was in St. Paul, some in Minneapolis. Does the member want to know the visits and the purpose? Mr.

Briese: Yes, I'd like to know the purpose and, yes, I think starting in August is probably good. We'd asked from the start of the fi scal year, I think, in the fall. Quite a number of them will be covered off, but from August to the end of the fiscal year, I think, would be appropriate. Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, the St. Paul meeting was– there were a number of studies and interviews done there. One of the primary interests was to become familiar with the Minnesota differential response model, so we met with the department of human resources, Mr.

David Thompson in particular, and associates that had designed the differential response model, which is now recognized, actually, as one of, if not the strongest, in North America on differential response right next door. They phased it in through the counties which deliver child welfare in Minnesota. I don't want to get into details unless the member wants to ask me, but I'll just move on.

1754 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 It was very interesting, actually. We do hope that he will come to Manitoba in the very near future just to provide advice on how we're doing with the design of our differential response pilots. In addition, we reviewed their child death review initiative. Another one was the housing partnership council which works for affordable hous ing with the Minnesota housing investment people. We met with Professor Doherty at the University of Minnesota on parenting help, on how to communicate and provide assistance for parents.

We met with the Family Relations Council, which is a national council based in–I think it was St. Paul or Minneapolis–on a number of different issues to provide supports for parents and as well with the Children's Advocacy Cent er, called CornerHouse. That's located in downtown Minneapolis. That meeting was very important as another model for our design of a children's advocacy centre here for Manitoba. We have a working group that Ms. Loeppky co-chairs along with Winnipeg Police Service in the design of that initiative. It was great to walk into CornerHouse and see everything all in disarray.

That's the bad news. The good news is that it was Target Corporation that was investing in new carpeting throughout, and the kind of public-private partnerships that we hope we can also attract to our children's advocacy centre here. There may be another organization or so that I met with there, but that comprised the meetings in the Twin Cities. As well, in August, I was accompanied by Ms. Loeppky and Claudia Ash- Ponce, the manager of Children's Resources, as well as the Children's Advocate, and an individual from the private sector.

We went to Pilot Butte, Saskatchewan, and visited Ranch Ehrlo residential centre. As well, we went to Regina and saw their group home facilities for children in the child welfare system. As well, on the following day, I met with the then-Minister of Social Services and housing who also provided a tour of some of the public housing initiatives that were under way; so that was in August. How's my time? Keep going?

In November, the American Humane and Child Welfare leagues 2007 international conference on differential response in Long Beach, California; Brian Ridd, the Manager of Community Support, Child Protection; Debbie Besant, Executive Director, Rural and Northern Se rvices; David Berry, Supervisor of CFS southwest team; Marnie Barker, Interlake Regional Director; and Cheryl Martinez, Co-ordinator of Authority Relations took part. That was a very intensive initiative. That's where the jurisdictions all over the world came and presented on the implementation of differential response.

American Humane is recog- nized as one of the repositories of the best intelligence on differential response; this was their second international conference. This was a real eye- opener, representations from as far away as New Zealand and Ireland. Hearing the models that had been implemented in the United States was quite heartening to see the statistics. I think, notably, it's North Carolina, Minnesota; Ohio's is rolling out now; Hawaii, but there were quite a few Canadians there as well.

The 22nd Annual San Diego International Conference on Child and Family Maltreatment, accompanied by Linda Burnside, the Executive Director of Disability programs and EIA, Claudia Ash-Ponce, Manager of Children's Resources, and Lorna Hanson, provincial investigation specialist– this also attracts a large medical faculty. There were representatives, at least two from the child protection centre that were there as we ll.

That, of course, is the permanent international think-tank on child mal- treatment. * (15:40) As well, I was able, because I was encouraged to do so, the Polinsky Children's Center in San Diego, a very interesting facility for emergency placement of children, a state-of-the-a rt, beautiful building, swimming pool, athletic field, library, but a very different model than Manitoba. It's good to know it's out there. In February was the federal-provincial- territorial ministers of Housing. We met and strategized there.

I should just say, we most recently met just a few weeks ago in Ottawa with the federal minister, at long last. That's a tale that I can tell, but that's on the Housing side. Finally, the Child Welfare League of America's national confer ence and the National Housing Conference in Washington in February. Those were some good opportunities and a lot of materials. If the member wants to get into any of the areas that are emerging as areas to focus on, I'd be more than happy to share that information with the member.

It's tremendous to see, with the hundreds of U.S. jurisdictions responsi ble for child welfare, how they incubate certain id eas and how we can learn from them. Of course, when we have a more

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1755 provincial and larger territorial approach to child welfare, in particular, it's always important to recognize the differences in other jurisdictions and whether those programs can be transplanted. But I often have discovered, sometimes in Justice, that we can successfully bring thos e initiatives to Manitoba. So I came back loaded with a lot of questions for the department and we're looking at a number of other approaches. Hopefully, we can build on some of the initiatives that have worked elsewhere.

Might I just add, too, that one of the core features of these think-ta nks and these workshops is the evaluation component that, I think, was missing only a few years ago. When people come now to present at these conference s, they are expected to provide an evaluation that is fair. So I think we're seeing a good sharing now of best practices across North America and beyond, that I'm glad that Manitoba, for one, is part of. I say the word, part of– the Child Welfare League was represented from, I think it's fair to say, most of the provinces in Canada.

It was a large Canadian contingent there, which is important that we have that kind of link with the Child Welfare League of America, even though we have the Child Welfare League of Canada as well. They were represented and I've got to know those people quite well as a result. I don't think I've missed anything there. Mr. Briese: Because you've kind of started in that direction, and I know we had some discussions about it last fall, and it was in pretty initial stages on the differential response. I think maybe we'll go there, and if you're willing to go there, we'll talk a little bit about it.

In December, I know you reported that there was going to be a shift to that model that would begin in January. There was $13 million, I think, was the figure that was allocated. I'd like to know a number of things about it. That $13 million, over what period of time is that allocated? I know that in the press releases I read that you talked about phase 1 and phase 2, and things like that. So I want a kind of a breakdown of where you're at, where you're going, what the expected results are on this, because it's a fairly dramatic change, I think, from what we've been doing. Mr.

Mackintosh: We've seen differential response grow, particularly in North America. A little bit slower in Canada, I take it, although Alberta has been recognized as the m odel and was recognized in the external reviews into child welfare as a model that Manitoba may want to pay some attention to. I understand that Ontario as well, though, has been moving on differential response, and I suspect that in varying degrees it will just be part of the lay of the land for child welfare in this country as it will soon, I'm sure, be south of the border.

It's based on some evaluations that have been conducted showing that earlier intervention and helping struggling families does reduce crises, does reduce, then, protection, or calls for protection. So, based on that, I understand the Alberta model is continuing to unfold. Ontario is strengthening its approach. What we're seeing, though, as one of the key formulas for introducing differential response, is a careful roll-out that's staged. We want to be sure- footed in Manitoba when it comes to this model.

We want to make sure that we build on an understanding right from the front line to the general population of what differential response is and that we put in place checks and balances and evaluations and build on pilots to get things going. So I know that there's been a fair bit of work done with the literature and what's going on elsewhere. There have been some preliminary consultations and some more in-depth with other jurisdictions, including the forms that I outlined, particularly with American Humane and the Child Welfare League.

Between March and May of '07, in particular, there were promotional and educational presentations developed and interactive workshops done with representatives of the child welfare agencies in Manitoba. The next phase, then, is to actually conclude the specific planning by the authorities for implemen- tation and the work through standing committee of what has to be the common elements. The plans are now, I understand, in the final days of being reviewed for forwarding now for financial approvals, again, based on a pilot commencement.

Of course, I just would want to note that American Humane has produced what are the core features of differential response. It's important to recognize that this is not about a system of response when children are in danger. This is a system of response when there may be some neglect, some troubles in families and families struggling, but it is to provide more proactive and voluntary assistance for families so that abuse that results in protection files having to be opened and children taken into care can be avoided.

1756 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 The federal government, I might just add, in terms of the Canadian lay of the land, I think, has been very keen to see differential response develop across the country, and that was just enunciated in the recent federal budget where they have signalled that they are prepared to partner initially with Alberta so that there can be some symmetry on reserve because, as the member knows, there's two-tiered child welfare in this country and the on- reserve federal funding is ve ry different than the off- reserve provincial funding.

So, with an interest now developing by the federal government to support differential response, we look forward to having some productive discussions with the federal government so that we can have that kind of partnership in Manitoba as our differential response model unfolds. * (15:50) A lot of this is about parenting skills. There may be a robust role for Triple P, by the way, which we should be talking more about. Over the longer term or even the medium term, the objective is to have fewer children in care because the protection issues have been neutralized.

Early indications from jurisdictions like Minnesota strongly suggest that that, indeed, is the outcome from this kind of approach, which is, by the way, why the excitement is building across the western world to move towards differential response in a sure-footed and targeted way. The phase that we are in now is to identify those common elements: the planning, the preparation, the development, the demonstration, the evaluation that is necessary so that we have a framework. Then the next phase will be the rollout. That will take place right into '09-10.

We're going to do it right as best we can and continue to build. It's also important that there's an agreement at standing committee, which is comprised of the branch and the authorities, that a standardized risk assessment tool for not just the intake agencies, but the service delivery agencies is important. They are developing that as a, what they call a foundation of differential response. There is now a good analysis taking place of risk assessment instruments. I'll tell you, I've seen the paper on this; I've heard the workshops on it.

There is no standardized risk assessment tool that's universally accepted whatso- ever. In fact, the model that Ontario brought in from New York a number of years ago was discredited then by some studies. In fact, the front-line workers were saying that it's just a lot of work and there's no better safety. I know Ontario has gone at it again. But we are joining in those efforts. That's one part of it. The other, though, is to ensure that we have a good and comprehensive evaluation.

Again, we are going to be very careful about this because we have to, in the interest of our children, ensure that this is going to work. The funding will go along with that kind of scheduling. It is our hope that in the coming couple of months would be roughly the time line–we want to conclude this in the first part of the year–that we will be able to conclude, then, the plans and the financing for the initial pilots. As well, opportunities for training front-line staff are continuing.

I know that some of the work that is being looked at is how to deal more effectively with adolescent parents, perhaps immigrant families, different approaches which I find really encouraging. I look forward to hearing from the department then and the standing committee what it plans as the first run. Perhaps I'll leave it fo r further questions from the member. Mr. Briese: Has every authority done this, that phase 1? Are all four authorities involved? Mr. Mackintosh: I'm advised that all four authorities have been developing the ideas for the pilots.

They've been working together in standing committee then to conclude that and to provide the costing so that the financial people in government can look at it. We're right at that stage right now. I understand that we're just on the cusp of getting that work from the standing committee. So they're all working together on this one. I understand that there's a recognition across the authorities of the importance of moving in this direction. I might add that you will hear from time to time where some workers will say, well, we already do prevention work, and that is true.

There's a great deal of prevention work that does happen in different ways. Traditionally, we've called them the family files. But differential responses have a very unique and different structure to it. We can get into that if we want, but I've just been advised that each authority has also done an authority plan for all of the respective of all the agencies within the authority's jurisdiction, and that's

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1757 being used as part of the building of our framework here in Manitoba. So we'll hear from Minnesota's experience. They can sort of have a look and provide some advice. I know Minnesota was instrumental in getting Ohio's up and running, which went live on July 1, I understand, and we'll see how that unfolds. So I guess what really comes down to is that the words "differential response" actually speak to the need to have a different response depending on the nature of the concern about a child.

It recognizes that apprehension may not be the best intervention, depending on the circumstances in the family and the nature of the concern. So that's, I think, the overview. I just noticed here, yes. The federal government has prioritized working with Alberta to implement differential response on reserves in that province, and so I'm very encouraged by that. I think they need to take a broader approach on reserve, but, clearly, they've said that if they are going to get into stronger funding arrangements they're going to do it only, at least at this point, by way of a differential response implementation model.

Mr. Briese: So the $13 million that you've directed to this is directed only to develop the program, or is it to implement the program? I'm not sure you follow where I'm going. Is it just to do the training and set up the mechanics to do it, or is some of it actually going to have the program implemented and operational? Mr.

Mackintosh: Yes, that allocation was actually a number that was identified by the external reviews the Ombudsman and advocate, as an amount that should be necessary to achieve the implementation of differential response, but that was a number that was projected and, to do this right, we'll continue to look at that, to look at the resources that are necessary. You know, there's still a lot of learning going on across North America with how to implement differential response. Some jurisdictions have added very little and, in fact, have found that they have saved some money through differential response.

Others have said it's absolutely critical that you make added investments, but in Manitoba, the external reviews I respect. We will phase in these dollars which, you know, we'll see this in the next fiscal year lead up to what we anticipate to be the full implementation then of differential response. But it's important, though, to learn as we go. If we have to make adjustments to timetables, then that should be secondary to the interests of children and getting differential response on a sure footing in Manitoba. I mean, that's been my concern, that we do this right. * (16:00) Mr.

Briese: The minister in his letter also indicated that for phase 2. I'm not even clear how many phases there are, whether there's just phase 1 and phase 2, but in phase 2 there would be resources available for hiring contractors to implement phase 2, or wording somewhat to that effect. What specifically would these contracts be? What are they implementing at that stage? Mr. Mackintosh: There may be contracts that bear on differential response relating to CFS, or the information technology system and changes that are necessary there, and, specifically, though, to differential response.

Uniquely, there have been external consultants that have been retained by the authorities to develop the authority plans for differential response. In terms of how many phases, yes, there are three phases. The member is right. Phase 2 is the planning preparation, the development of the authority plans, but, as well, the testing and demonstration and some initial evaluation on the pilots. Phase 3 is the implementation phase which would be more comprehensive and province-wide. There are other contracts that may be used at the community level to provide family supports.

Different jurisdicti ons have different approaches to how you provide those preventative services. Preventative services, by the way, will usually be in the nature of parenting skills which in Manitoba, hopefully, will be focussed more around Triple P, but there may be other approaches as well. Triple P doesn't have a monopoly, but that is a world-class– actually, in the San Diego conference, it was presented to me as one of the world's best practices, and it's right here in Manitoba. But the other kinds of services will be addiction services. There will be their homemaker services, for example.

In other words, a lot of family support services for which organizations or agencies already exist to provide those services, but it's a matter of triaging them to supervising their intervention. There may be other kinds of services as well. So what I'm getting at is we've noticed, for example, in parts of Minnesota–I think it was in

1758 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 6, 2008 Dakota County, no, Hennepin County, which is generally Minneapolis–the services are being provided by independent contractors. In other words, the child welfare system with the county does not provide most of the family support services for differential response, so there are different models. I suspect in Manitoba we're going to have some combination of it as we've seen by way of the service delivery in the past, but I would think that Triple P, for example, will be delivered through existing agencies.

It might be that, in some parts of the province, the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba is a service provider. So that would be a contract. Whether child welfare agencies will get into addictions counselling is a question. They may just defer–and I suspect that that will continue–to the expertise that exists and whether it's a native addictions organization, Addictions Foundations of Manitoba, the Behavioural Health Foundation, other organizations like that. So what we will see from the proposed pilots then is how they plan to have the services delivered by, is it by contract or is it by in-house staff. Mr.

Briese: I guess that begs the question of why would you have four basic pilot projects rather than the Province doing one pilot that would cover all authorities. Mr. Mackintosh: Well, one of the features of differential response that we've seen, I think, almost, well, the ones that I'm familiar with–for example, in Alberta they rolled it out in different areas of the province. Then it recognized regional differences, and it recognized the differe nt agencies that were in the different parts of the province. In Minnesota, as I said, it was rolled out on a county-by-county basis.

I think they started with, like, 10 counties or something like that, and then expanded, so necessarily your services will differ depending on what part of the province you are in. Same here. I mean, the services and the organizations that provide services in Brandon area, for example, may be quite different than in Winnipeg and may be very different than in Island Lake. That's part of the reason. The other, though, is that there are some different needs.

I said earlier that agencies can identify differing trends or pressure points affecting families, and there are, for example, within the general authority and within the Winnipeg Child and Family Services ambit, increasing concern about supports for immigrant families and the need for unique interventions there to assist parents with adjusting to life in Winnipeg or Canada in general. I think we should be open to recognizing that there can be a continuum of approaches. I think that could be one of the important attributes of differential response in Manitoba, as it is in other jurisdictions.

Everything that is being done, though, has certain common elements. Again, differential response has a definition. There are certain criteria that have to be met in order to define your child welfare program as having a differential response stream. That will be part of Manitoba's differential response model. There will be core elements. They'll be common criteria that won't differ, but the nature of the programming and the way service is provided may differ depending on different needs across the province. Mr. Briese: You're talking beyond the child welfare system, though, here, are you not?

You're talking family interventions with the goal of prevention, like early intervention that will probably derail some of the future problems. So you're outside the child welfare system to a degree on some of that, I would think. Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, I think there may be traditional notions of the child welfare system as being simply an apprehension and placement function, but there's a long history of child welfare all across the western world that has collateral services contracted for or services within child welfare agencies that provide the range of services that families need to function in a way that ensures the safety and well-being of children. Mr.

Daryl Reid, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair I think it's important that, when you think of addiction services for families, you not think of it as something outside of the child welfare system. I think differential response will put an exclamation mark to that one, but I don't think we can say that, in any recent history, addiction services, for one, for families has been excluded from the considerations of child welfare workers when they're looking at the problems that arise in families. Mr.

Briese: I know very little about this, but there was a Snowbird Lodge opened in March, and I believe it has something to do with differential response. I'd like to know how it's being staffed, what services are there or what services are proposed there. Is it only catering to Aboriginal families at this time, or is it responding to all families?

May 6, 2008 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1759 * (16:10) Mr. Mackintosh: That facility, which is in Winnipeg, is under the auspices of the All Nations Coordinated Response unit anchor, although it's under the umbrella of the southern authority, does serve all families. It's under the umbrella of the southern authority. I said that, so. But the services offered there may well become part of the formalized, differential response model. It contemplates that.

We've seen that kind of a facility as part of differential responses elsewhere, but what we're seeing there is a place where families from intake can get referred for a range of services and consistent with that approach. Mr. Briese: In differential response, where do you see the, I guess, flag being raised? Will it be CFS caseworkers that suggest th e original intervention and then suggest what directions you go with intervention, or is there going to be some new staff that's separate and apart that basically those concerns go to immediately? Mr.

Mackintosh: The general model, and I'll speak to that first, is there's always an assessment of safety that's always–that nothing changes there in terms of job one. For example, in Minnesota what they do is once the safety assessment has been concluded and it's determined that the child is not in need of protection, but the family is in need of assistance in order to guard against a risk of physical or other abuse, the matter is then referred to a–I'm trying to remember what they call it in Minnesota now–but a Family Support stream, and the workers are hired in that separate stream.

They're not protection workers, but are Family Support workers. In Alberta they're called Family Enhancement workers. So they then would go back to the family and say, we've done an assessment. We're of the view that the child is not in need of protection or in need of apprehension, but we would like to provide services or we would like to link you with services that will strengthen your family and strengthen the well-being of your child. Then there would be an agreement entered into whereby those services are provided.

But, at any time, if there's any change in circumstances or concern, then the matter can be referred to child protection once again and, indeed, the child could be apprehended if there was evidence to support that decision. But the answer to the question is, yes, that's one of the key components. It's a separate stream. In Minnesota, for example, they offered some of the positions in the Family Support stream to the protection workers and some took up that, wanted to change their foc

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-2-36b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 2nd hansardpdf 36b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	12cf7c8d2b1751ec7dc8c5a90c6a23a4791bfc83

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).