VOL. 1 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, AUGUST 16, 1979 NO. 24

rl.ugust 16, 1979 The House met at 3:00 p.m. c'lr. Speaker in the Chair. !·lR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Tape No. 853 SD - 1 Order, please! The hen. President of the Council. !•lR. W. :1ARSHALL: dr. Speaker, I rise with a motion that I know all members of this hen. House will wish to join . in and indeed all Newfoundlanders would join with ~~eir fellow Canadians in ex?ressing their regret of the people of Newfoundland at the passing of cilirteenth Prime tlinister of Canada, the right hen. John Diefenbaker. As is customary when matters of ~~is nature come up, there is a support staff that prepare certain informacion.

But, of course, with ~~e right hen. gentleman, Nr. Diefenbaker, I do not think any Car..adian really needs to be appraised for the contribution that he has made to this nation and to this Province. rl5 I said, the thirteenth Prime :·linister of Cana-la, the second Prime :.tinister since Newfoundland entered into Confederation. He was a canadian Patriot with very direct views about the direction in which the country should go, a friend of Newfvunuland, the Prime Ninister from 1957 to 1963.

But I think it can iJe said utostly about him that he is to Canadian parliamentary history in the twentieth century what Sir John A. l1acdonald was to Canadian parliamentary history in u1e nineteenth century. Indeed, it is very difficult for us to imagine how the House of Parliament,or for that matter the nation of Canada wi1at type of characteristic it will have because his personality and his presence was very much felt in the House of Parliament in Canada throughout the many years that he represented it. 21.64

.. August Hi, 1979 Tape NO . 8 53 so - 2 :·IR. li. :·!ARSHALL : We have direc~ed, of course , t.':at the flags on public b uildings remain at half mast until the funeral is over1 and ! know that that will be a reminder to che citizens of Newfoundla .nd, a v~y vivid remi.nd~ to the citizens of Newfoundland of th.e great cont:::ibution that t.~ i s great Canactian :nade to our r-.ation and to this .Province .

So I !i\Ove,and i kr.ow all hon . member s opposite as well as all hon . members h ere, a."1u1 a.s I say, all of Newfoundland will join in a motion to th e effe~ of expressing sympathy o ver the death of this g reat Canadian gentleman and patriot. SOt•!E BON. :.!E:1BERS : Hear, hear . ~~ . SPE~~R : (Simms) The 3on. Leader of the Oppo sition. l·!R. D • .IA!.JIESO!'I: :1r. Spea.ker, Canada is a slightly smaller p lace toda :: .

I l::elieve, in looking about me, that I am the on:'ly membe: present in t.'-le Chamber, at: least at: this moment, who can claim a twenty-five year frie:-.dship with tbe lace Joim George Dei.fenbaker. It is difficult for me to describe the emotion that I feel at: this moment 2165

!\ugust 16, 1979 Tape No. 854 J'lW - 1 ~R. D. J~~IESON: because I do not know of a man whom I had on many instances more profound disagreements. Ee and I were intellectually very much at odds on many issues, but the man taught me a lesson that I believe all of us in public life should learn and adhere to and that is that where matters of high public concern are involved it is not only entirely possible but it is much to be desired that men can differ ~Jithout losing their respect for each other or r,•ithout,indeed,having a lack of respect for a point of view with which they do in fact take exception.

I do not want today to ;oin the thousands who will be talking about John Diefenba~er the stateman, the Prince Minister although I will say a word or two on that score 1 but I want mostly in joining this party with the motion to talk about John Diefen­ baker ~he friend. I remember on the first occasion on whic~ I met him and I remember the kindness he showed to mP. and how that 1 and I do not think it is too large a wor~ blossomed into a mutual respect.

When he was Prime Minister he would frequ.:ntly request that I be the person to interview him mostly because he knew that I fundamentally disagreed with some of the things that he wanted to say and he enjoyed the cut and thrust and the parry of having someone doing the interviewing who he felt in a sense brought out G~e best in him and forcen him that extra inch or mile in terms of declaring his point of view.

Later as we sat opposite each other :for many years in the House of Commons,! do not recall a single instance where he did not out of courtesy either send me a note or phone me if he proposed to ask a question, if he intended to attack 1 or to aive me a general indication of what his stancpoint 11as going to be. I remember seeing him shortly after I entered the Fouse of Com~ns anc, as I said in a radio interview this I"Orning, he said tone, "You will be a very wise man if you do not open your mouth for the first year you are in this place because it will take you that long 21.66

August 16, 1979 Tape No. 855 NM - 1 MR. JA!oi!ESON: to learn the ropes:' I took his advice and it was the great honour that I had at the end of the Centennial session Throne Speech to move the Address-in-Reply- ~nd that was,of course,a great many years ago now - and the first person to cross the aisle and subsequently to send me a note which I retain and cherish,was Diefenbaker. Over the years I have also 1 of course 1 in addition to what I have described as our profound disagreements on certain ideological matters, have found myself very much on his side.

And he and I as recently as a few months ago became very deeply involved in matters concerned with the Middle East, and I remember once again, and Hansard in Ottawa will record this, that he was so upset because one member on his own side had misunderstood the agreement that he and I had reached with regard to that particular issue that he rose on a question of privilege to put the record straight so that there would be no embarrassment to me. There is much more I could say about this splendid Canadian.

He is a constant reminder to us all 1 I think,of two things which we in public life ought to bear in mind: one is the decency and the civility to which I have referred, but something else is that none of us is immortal and that none of us should have any illusions that we are going to leave some profound mark on the face of the earth, that we must plod on, do what we can, the best we can for the people who sent us here or to any other Legislature,and that we must understand and recognize that there will always be those moments of exultation in public life, which he enjoyed, and there will also be those moments of deep despair which I fear that none of us is spared from time to time whether we are in public life or not.

My last encounter with'the Chief: as I called him, and indeed as virtually all members of Parliament called him, was at his last birthday party. I may tell you that he knew then that his days were numbered . His greatest objective was to win one more election and he also wanted, because I had been there recently, to hear what I had to say about China, which he wished also to visit. Faith intervened 2167

August 16, 1979 Tape No. SSS NN - 2 HR • .:;ru'!IESON: and he has not been able t:o make that particular t!"ip. But in <!hina , as in most other countries of the world, a s well as within Canada, those who knew him as a friend, as ! did, I feel ! am certain in saying, wi-ll join with us today in mourning the passL"lq of a great Canadian and in remind "ing o=selves about the great satisfactions and rewards of public service. SOHE !iON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ Ve-~ well said, Sir . 21.68 •· ..

--, August 16, 1979 Tape 856 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the said motion? Those in favour "Aye". SOME HON. MEMBERS: "Aye". MR. SPEAKER: Contrary "Nay". carried. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. 'JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) arising from the reports on the Premiers' conference.

Is the President of the Privy Council in a position to say whether or not a Newfoundland position vis-a-vis the Ontario energy paper has been prepared, or is the Premier merely in a sense holding a watching brief on what is now clearly a very strong difference of view between the Premiers of Alberta and Ontario with regard to the increase in energy, and particularly oil prices? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think the position of the government vis-a-vis the sharing of the energy resources in the Canadian nationis fairly well-known.

But I would think that I would prefer to take notice of the question because I think 1 as hon. members will understand 1 the Premier is up there now engaged on behalf of the people in Newfoundland and there are certain things that are fast developing and fast acting so I would prefer to take notice of the question and after conference with the Premier on the matter,and when the Premier comes back he will certainly make the position well-known if he does not nationally. MR. JAMIESON: MR. SPEAKER: MR. JAMIESON: A supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. Leader of the opposition.

Well,I would understand and expect that the Premier would make a statement upon his return. What I am asking the President of the Privy Council is whether or not there is a government position paper which ~~e Premier is taking or has taken to that conference? 2169

augu s t: 16, !.979 Tape 856 P:<- 2 Mr . Jamieson : The t wo points of view were known in advance_, the Ont:ar io publ ication of their ·docwn em:, plus the state:nent s by Premier Lougheed of Alberta . What I am asking is , i s t her e a posit i on which the Newfoundlan d Government ha s takem Specifically, does it side '"ith Ontario or doe s it with Albe r ta ? And that ll'.akes one whale of a dif f e r ence in terms of con sumer spending or cost: HR. SPEAKER (SL.'o!!o'.S): ~IR . MARSHALL: The hon . Pr esident of the council . ~I.

Speaker, the governmen t ha s been aware of the situa t ion and has studied the situatio n ver y carefully , studied the situation as it appeared with respect to the br ie:s that were cir cul a ted befo r ehand, but beca use the briefs themselve s contained really the bare bones . of the situa;:io .r. and the flesh is really going t.o be put on it while it is under consideration, I would prefer, so that t:he n · i s no misun cerst:anding , that we await, as I say, the Premier's return cr consultation with the Premier himself so that there will be no misund .e rstandin g as to the position of the government.

What real l y I am s ayi ng, Mr. Speaker, is that the government of course has a position on these 2170 ..

August 16,1979 Tape No. 857 AH-1 MR. MARSHALL: the position on these matters but it would prefer and we would prefer to await the Premier's return so that he can answer that particular question. MR. JAMIESON: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: (Sil!ll!\

s) A supplementary.The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.JJ\MIESON: Mr. Speaker, I will try once more. Some days ago in the House the Minister of Mines and Enerqy (Mr.Barry) confirmed that he agreed with the position taken at Tokyo by the heads of government that Canadian prices would have to rise to world prices as fast as possible. I believe the record will show - I may be paraphrasing - basically that that is the position.

Now that is the attitude, of course, that is taken by the government of Alberta, I ask the President of the Privy Council whether the attitude going to be taken by ~~e Premier reflects that of his own Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr.Barry), namely 1 that prices have to rise more rapidly than have been previously contemplated? MR. SPEAKEF: the Council. MR. MJI.RSHALL: The hon.

President of Mr.Spaaker, the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.Barry) when he s~e2~s on matters of energy speaks for the government and he enunciated the policy of the government,but as with all positions taken by the scvernment from time to ti~e they are always subject to hearing other sides and other positions.

And insofar as that particular statement made by the Ministe~ of Mines and F.nergy (Mr.Barry) may have altered, if at all, as a result of whathas transpired at that conference, I am not preparer to say at this particular time, not being at the conferenee itself and not having had the benefit of discussion of the same with the first minister of this Province and the other ministers that are there including the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.Barry). But undoubtedly our Fosition will be quite clearly known and publicly know at the appropriate time. 2171

August 16,1979 Tape No. 857 AH-2 MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) The hon. member for LaPoi1e followed by the hon. member for Eagle River. MR. NEARY: I want to put my question to the President of the Council, the Deputy Premier 1 in the absence of the Premier or the Minister of Justice. Would the hon. gentleman tell the House if the government is concerned about the ever increasing vandalism and crime in this ProvinOP , crime involving violence, armed robberies and the like1 und what steps the government are going to take to come to grips with this increasing problem in the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

President of the council. MR. MARSHALL: I may first,before getting to the meat of the hon. member's question, I would like to point out for the record there is no such a creature, if that wou!d b~ the description of it1 as a Deputy Premier. There is one person, the first minister,and it would be inconsistent to have such an official,in our view,as a Deputy Premier as such. But I take the opportunity to answer the question,though, posed to me as President of the Council.

The government of course is extremely concerned with vandalism, with any actions taken against the laws of this Province,and is always diligently working through the Department of Justice and the other departments to see exactly what can be done to curb same. But I do not know if that answers in a general way a general question,but if the hon. member wishes to be more specific and put specific instances to me I will be only to happy 21.72

August 16, 1979 Tape 858 EC - l MR. MARSH..l\LL: to respond to them if, in fact, I can right now; otherwise, I will take notice of them. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) for LaPoile . MR. N'""'<:.ARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. the member In view of ~~e fact ~~at most of this crime is taking place in the greater St. John's area, would the hon. gentleman indicate if the government is intending to set up precincts in the city of St. John's as they have in other cities throughout North America, you know, deploy the Newfoundland Constabulary in various precincts throughout the city?

Does the government have this in mind? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~~e President of the Council. o1R. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, that is a suggestion that has been made from time to time. It is one ~~at is under active consideration. Just how effective the setting up of precincts would be is a matter that has to be determined. I would not wish to say that we have come to a definite decision to ~~is end, but I would say it is one of the things that can be considered in our constant effort that h as been over a period of ti ~e to curb lawlessness, whether in the city of St. John's or elsewhere in the Province. :-tR.

NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. 11R. NEA.'<.Y: Mr. Speaker, a supplementarj . A supplementary, the hon. the member As the hon. gentle~an and members are ~# are, teen-age drinking has come in for considerable publicity recently, especially in view of the fact that one mother had to go down and take her daughter out of a tavern downtown. \vould the hon. gentleman indicate what steps are being taken to cope wi~~ L~ is problem which seems to be growing practically daily, the problem of teen-age drinking in the Province? MR . SPE AKE R: :·lR. :·lARSfu-"\LL: ':'he hon. ~'>e President of t.i1e Council.

I do not know if tile govern~ent can, :·!r. Speaker, cu:::b teen-age drinking, bllt I would state to ~~e Eo use that ·,;e consider inciden~s of lU1der-age d.rinkin<;r in liquor establishments to be 2173

August. 16, 1979 Tape ass EC - 2 extremely se~ious. It. is a matter of some great. concern to us, particul arly in the city o! St . John 's '"'here it: appears ::o be ::-ore abunda."''t than in other instances . P-"'c all · .. e can say is that c.."'ere are const:an t nanciing ins~ructions t:o the authorities ::.o ma.L"\t:ain a strict vigilance on these instit;;tions and ::o take such steps as t:."'e la" allows with respect: t:o closure of the institutio!'.s t:.~emselves l.f they find that infringements occur . ~IR. !;tARY: ;.u;.. SPEP.lCE:t: (Simms) !:'amber ::or :..aPoile. ~!R . llEA~: :-tr.

Speaker , a final supplementary . A final supplementary, the hon . t:.he :·tr. Speaker, r ....-ould lil<:e eo asl<: the hon. c;ent~eroan if :,e could be a little !!'.Ore specific in telling us what t.'lese measures are that are usee i:1 t:=Yinc; eo come to grips with the problem of ~"''der -age drinking? I would like for ~"'e ministe r to specifically tell us how t.'tey avoid harassing other ceen - ac;ers 'A'ho are of t:."'e age of drinking. Can t.~e laws be enforced to ident:ify the under - age drinking problem and at: the same time r.ot ~arass those who are ent:it:led eo vJ.sit: t:.'lese public places? !1R.

SP~l\.KE:t: The hon. t:.'le President of the Council. :·!R. l'.i.."S<'.ALL: That is a very Ci fficul t: quest:ion ::o a.'lswer, ~ r. Speaker. I mean, I can 0~1 give general answers t:o c;e:r.eral quest:ions and Z:174 ..

.r..ugust 16, l97'l Taoe No. 859 DW - l '1R. \v • ~1ARSHALL: the situation is that an inspector will go in, he will make inquiries, if there appears to be somebody unoer the age he will make the necessary inquiry for identification. If it happens to be that that person is older in years than he or she appears to be in person, there is nothing really that he can do about it.

I mean 1 you cannot just draw a line and give an inspector a penalty because he happened inthe course of an investigation to have asked somebody whether he or she is old enough to be in a tavern and he finds out after",.,e.rds that, in fact, that person is. '!F.. S?El'KER: (SIM1-1S) "'R. E. HISCOCK: T~e hon. member for Eagle ~iver. I wanted to direct my ~1esticn towards the tlinister of :--!uni:::ipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. l'iinc"sor) and also the '~ inister of Transportation and COIT\l!lunications (''.r. Brett) .

The Prenier made a statement last Friday at Goose Bay that the first phase for >:ater and sewerage for $<>1'0 ,01'0 the tencers would not ~e called until late Fall and ;rork would tegin next year. The Premier had sent a telegra!". durina th.: election that $2.5 million •ras avail­ able for the first phase of water and seweraae for the roac and for the air strip at Cartwright.

I brought this matter to the attention of the House just after the House convened, and if I am correct Hansard will probably also show when I cirectec the question towards the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing he stated that as soon as possible the wor~: >1ould begin. It was not a matter of the engineering not being completed as soon as possible, by the minister giving the imr:ression tha:: work would begin this year. I would like .to ask the minister now are tenders going to called in the late Fall?

Number t'•o , has he informed the council of the cecision?l'nd number t!-Lree ;will their equipment be sent in late Fall now so it will te on hand in Cart­ '"right for early Spring? ~-!R. SPEAKER: and Housing. The han .. !·!inister of '"Tunicipal 1\ffairs 2:175

T August 16, 1c;o7o Tape :-:o. 85'3 ~r. Speaker, :,Oth statements that were ~ade are indeed quite accurat e , Funding has been made available for these projects this year. "1/e ha·.-e contracted a consulting firm to do design on the ~ate r and sewer project for Cartw r ight , That is pro , grassing normally.I am advisee ~y the consultan cs that the design . ..,ill !:;e available by the end of Septe::o.ber or certainly i:l the area of the end o!

Septel!'be z ready for tender cul 1the btent being that the ~enders will oe called immediately so that contractors can get in there before !·linte r and see the on- site =onditions, submit their bids and the contract can be awarded early rluring the :·linter months so that the contracto rs t!1en ~·ill have t.l'1e opportunity to order the ua~rials for the ?roject, to have them shipped in very early in t he season,and start construction very early next Spring wit."t the intent being to complete ~~e project in the 1~~0 constr~ction season. !o!R. E . HISCOCK: MR . SPEAKER: Eagl e ;liver. "!!.. E: .

HISCOCY.: A supplementary, ~ r. S~aker. A supplement ary, the hon . member for Does that also mean that when ;: :,r ought t.'le question ~p before that I "'aS given the impression t hat t.~ere was no consultanting fi~s _involved , that the reason ·..ny the Oepa rt:men t of Transponation was no: goino on >dth the road or the airstrip was because the De~ar"'...l"eJl: of Z176 ..

August 16, 1979 MR. HISCOCK: doing the study? MR. SPEAXER (Simms): MR. N. WINDSOR: Tape No.860 NM- 1 Municipal Affairs was the one that was The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs. Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman is talking about three different projects, The one that he mentioned in his first question was the water and sewer project. I have answered that in relation to consultants.

The other project, the road programme through the Department of Municipal Affairs, the local roads in the community and the airstrip through the Department of Transportation and Communications, the officials of the two departments are still working on that. We hope that it will be done by officials of the department;if not we will get a consultant to come in and do the supervision. But that decision has not been finally made. But the intention there as well is to have this ready for the Fall so that tenders can be called and awarded and the work done over the 1980 construction season. MR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hen. member for Eagle River. !offi. HISCOCK: So if I am correct 1 the Department of Municipal Affairs will not move in unless the Department of Transportation - the two departments go in at the same time? MR. SPEAKER: MR. N. WINDSOR: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. It is our policy, Mr. Speaker, to co- operate,the two departments together 1 and we hope to do this as a joint project.

That was the rationale why funding was made a v ailable on an urgent basis to the Department of Municipal Affairs this year in view of the fact that the Department of Transportation had already made a commitment to do the airstrip and while the contractor was there doing the work it was economical and sensible for us to proceed with the local road project as well. So both projects will be done together. 2177

August 16, 1979 Tape No. 860 MR. HISCOCK: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): I indicated a final supplementary I believe a moment ago unless the member for Torngat (Mr. Warren) would like to yield. MR. WARREN: I yield. NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. A final, final supplementary. MR. WARREN: Could the minister advise the Council at Cartwright of the decision and let them know because as of now they do not know what is going on 1 they have not received any communication from either one of the departments? MR. SPEAKER: MR. WINDSOR: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs .

I tend to disagree with the hon. gentleman in his statement, Mr. Speaker. First of all 1the Council in Cartwright obviously know that consultants have been appointed; consultants are obviously there doing field work and must be in contact with the Council. So the Council must be just as aware, probably even more aware than I am personally of what is happening in Cartwright as far as the design work and how that is proceeding. So I am sure they are aware and I am sure our officials are in contact with them. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question will be to the hon.

President of the Council. On August 9th., the hon. Minister of Fisheries announced a gear subsidy programme for Labrador. Across the House he verbally told me that it was not coming into effect before August 9th. Could the hon. President of the Council advise me otherwise? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. I4ARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, first of all I would like to thank the han. member for the courtesy of giving me advanced notice of this question which has enabled me to find the answer for him. The 2178

August 16, 1979 Tape No. 960 effective dat e for acceptable gear purchases is January 1st ., 1979. So gear for the 1979 fishing season , if purchased before January 1st. , 1979 , even that may still be considered , if the fisherme~ can provide sufficien~ evidence that the gear was not used prior to the 1979 seas on . In other words 1 it cannot be used. Also I would like to info r m the · non . member and i n !:he Bouse the gove rnmen t has .nade every effort to expedite 2179 NM - 3 •·

August 16, 1979 Tape No. 861 SD - 1 l·lR, i'l. HARSnALL: this programme ,has advised all Labrador fishermen that they may apply through the departmental field representativesat Goose Bay and Mary's Harbour and it is already that these people, the representatives there, have been visited and application forms have been provided. So we are doing our utl!Ost to see that the Gear Replacement Programme for Labrador comes into effect and is an effective programme for the 1979 year, i1R. SPEAKER: (Sinuns) 1-8. L. STIRLING: The hon. member for Bonav~sta North. Thank you, Hr. Speaker.

I have a e;.-uestion for the :·tinister of Rural; Agricultural and Northern Development (~1r. J. Goudie) • As the minister is aware, as we have been discussing it for the last number of days, there was a regulation brought in lvhich may have the effect of being a potential disaster for the blueberry industry this year in Newfoundland- it might have the effect of disrupting the picking, collecting and sale of berries •. I wonder if the minister has a current report on that situation? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~Jinister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. 11R. J. GOUDIE : :1r. Speaker, I, like the hon.

President of the Council, would like to express my thanks to the hon. member fox Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling) for i1aving given me notice L~at he would ask the question. The situation in relation to the upcoming blueberry season and new regulation which is to become effectiv~ or it is certainly recommended to become effective ~~is year, has to do witil L~e further processing of blueberries in this Province beyond L~e picking, washing and cleaning stage.

A suggestion has been made L"lat we silou::i.d bring in the regulation to require L"lat an IQF system be brought in so L~at L~e blueberries are individually quick-frozen before they are shipped out of the Province. 2180

August 16, 1979 Tape ~"0 . S 6l SD - 2 :-!R . J . coon: : The hon. member has expresse .d some C::oncern to me on behalf of a number of pickers and buyers in his atea of the Province, people who he suggests may be negatively affected by this particular regulation. I will give him the commi.tment now that this situation wiJ.1 be analysed again. I have had briefings from the staff in the department in relation to this proble:n.

I was fairly satisfied that it was a good regulation since I understood all people in the Province 1 people who were associated with blueberry picking and selling, had been notified ~~rae years ago that thi5 rec:Julation wc.uld be cO!II,ing into effect this ye~. But, apparently, there is a problem with some people, <1t least, indicating they have not been notified so I have to analyse the situation again. As a matter of fact, I have asked one of the staff of the department to come up to meet with me and the hon. member following the Oral Question period today before six o'ciock, Mr.

Speaker, to try anc~ resoive this situation. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. E • ROBERTS: I have caught someone off gU<U"d, I thought my friend from Bonavista North (Mr. sti:r;li:ng) had some supplementaries. :m. E. ROBER'l'S : The minister gave the answer. The individually quick-frozen, I thought that was the most labour intensive suggestion I ever heard, one blueberry at a time. Hy question, Sir, is Z1.81.

August 16, 1979 Tape 862 EC - l olR. ROBERTS : the gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), who I assume is the Acting Premier. I quite agree with him that there can be no such thing as a Deputy Premier because, as the hen. Mr. Curtis used to tell us, only one minister could have relations with the Governor and that is the Premier of the Province, the First ~linister. But in the absence of the Premier from the Province, there certainly should be an Acting Premier, and I assume it is the gentleman from St. John's East extern.

And on that understanding I would ask him if he could tell us whether the government as yet have come to any decision wi~~ respect to the. contract for the gentleman who was ~~e head of the Action Group? The hen. minister, I am sure, recalls the Premier told the House a fortnight or so ago that he would be, wi~"lin two or three days of his statement, meeting with the gentleman who headed the Action Group to discuss the matter, and as the Premier will not be ba~~ in the House as far as I know before the House adjourns, I wonder if the President of the Council could bring us up-to-date. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR.

MAP..SHALL: The hen. the President of the Council. Mr. Speaker, the government have not come to a complete resolution of it yet, but I would like to assure the House that the matter is not dormant. I mean, as the hen. House knows, ~"le Action Group has been disbanded and ~"lere has been active work done in connection with the matter, but we are not in a position yet as we had hoped to be, to come in with our statement as to the resolution of it. MR. ROBERTS: HR. SPEAKER: for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary.

A supplementary, the hen. t.."le member I would thank the President of the CounciL Could he tell us two ~!:lings; One could he confirm, just so we have it on record, that the head of t.."le Action Group is still employed oy the government even though the Action Group apparently, as a c;roc: has ceased to exist - if t:.e gentleman is still employed in the Public Service? And sobeit- :'..f that is t.."le case, perhaps the minister could confirm it. Secondly, would he confirm '"'hat he appeared to say in the latter _tJart of his answer to my question, which is that ~"le government '."ill be rc.aking 2182

:.ugust 16, 1979 Tape 862 EC - 2 :·1.~. ROB::P.TS: a statement whe.'l c.1'1e issue which t:~e :ninister assures us is not C.ormant has been resolved? tvill the Pre.'llier or a :ninister for the government be li'Ming a stat:ement, '"'hether it: i.s in the House or outside, :.;herever it: is appropriate at that time? ~!R . S?Etu<ER: {Sitll:lS) The hon. t:..~e ?~esid~nc. of t,;.1:e Council. M..~ .. :1.\RSil~: ~::- .. Speake r, to t:..'le :i:st. questl.o~ . The hon.

C?encle:'1an concerned is under contract, o£ course, and I co no t k~ow whether he is - technically speaking, not a public servant: - but he is cer-:ainly u:1der contract still to the gover.~ment . :·1.~. ROBERTS: Se is still being paiC.? iie is still being paid u.'lcer thac con=act . 3ut, as I say, t:.."tere are nec;otiations onc;oing '"i th respe ct to it, anc I can certainly assure the Eouse t.'lae even though the House closes, the gover;u;o.ent , i11 t:..lotis matte r as in all matters, ,.,ill malte p\lO.lic statements even •11hen the House is not sitting wi~"t respect to it . ~R. ROBERTS: ~IR.

SPEAKE?.: :o r the Strait of Belle Isle. ~. Speak er, oay 1 have one more question? A final supplementary, t.~e hon . the ~embe r Thank you , Your Honour. ~ . Speake r, again, I ..... oulc tn ank che ?resident of t.'le Council . He used the word 'negotiati~ns' .

I '"oncer if he woulc confirm or deny , as t:..'1e cas~ may oe - co phrase ic in the interrogative; are the government proceeding to negotiate their way out of the contract or have they alterr.acely serv ed nocice upon the gentleman ·~ho is head of t.he Action Grout: t.~at the concracc is at an e:td a."ld we ,,..ill see ...,~a::. happens t:..'1en? 2183 · ~

August 16, 1979, Tape 863, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Simms): of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The hon. the President I do not think at this stage- if I used the word 'negotiations', which I know I did, I prefer to say that the matter is under very active consideration and I do not think at this time it would be appropriate for me to say any more than what I have already said. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

I am wondering if the minister would indicate to the House; when his depar~~ent is receiving applications from towns to take advantage of the forty/sixty road building, or paving, or maintenance programmes, when these particular applications are turned down - as he knows many are being turned down over the past weeks - and when some of those applications indicate that the agreement is necessary and the money is necessary to maintain roads in a given community in a passable condition, to protect what they have and to guarantee the citizens of that community having roads that they can possibly use, when that rejection is made, does the minister accept that as being a position that the council is in a bankrupt position and no longer able to maintain the basic essential services for which they are elected?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. WINDSOR: No, Mr. Speaker, it is a matter of priorities, I suppose. We have by far more requests for funding for roads than we could possibl~· handle. The main criteria that we look at, the most important one, of course, would be to ensure that the municipality is in a financial position to absorb the debt that would be incurred as a result of any road construction . As the hon. gentleman mentioned, it is a sixty/forty programme, this one that is available.

The municipality will be responsible for 40 per cent of the cost of that so we have to ensure, in the 2184

August 16, 1979, Tape 863, Page 2 -- apb MR. WINDSOR: interest of the municipality, that they are not getting into a project that they cannot afford. If the hon. gentleman is talking abou.t a case where the road is impassable, then I think, yes, we would have to have a special ' look at that. I am not aware that any request to upgrade roads that were in that bad a condition has been refused. If it has I would certainly have a look at it with him. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER(Simms) : A supplementary.

The hon. the member for Windsor- Buchans followed by the hon. the member for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR. FLIGHT: The minister can be assured that there is a community which has made application and it has been rejected and they are no longer in a position to keep their main roads passable. That was pointed out in the application but it was still rejected so what I am wondering is what the d~partment's attitude will be in that particular instance.

The supplementary question is; would the minister indicate whether or not we have a situation in this Province where some towns are approved under the forty/sixty agreements, others are rejected but to other towns in Newfoundland funds are made available at 100 per cent, no cost sharing at all, no commitmen~ from the town, that the Province makes 100 per cent of·the road programmes that they request from the Department of Municipal Affairs, the Department of Municipal Affairs funds totally, that there are towns in Newfoundland receiving total funding from the Department of Municipal Affairs for their road programmes.

MR. SPEAKER: of Municipal Affairs. MR. WINDSOR: The hon. the Minister There have been cases, Mr. Speaker, where Cabinet, not the department - Cabinet can approve 21.85

August 16, 1979, Tape 863, Page 3 -- apb ~ffi. WINDSOR: funding in excess of sixty/forty in isolated cases. These would primarily be in cases again where in a municipality, obviously, the need was great, and the case that the hon. gentleman is presenting may well be one of these cases. As I indicated in· my previous answer, I would certainly be willing to discuss it with him and have a look at any particular situation. I have an idea of the one that he is talking about and he may well have a very valid case and I think we should have a look at it.

The situation is though that in many cases, he may be well right, that we have said to a municipality, no, we will not approve funding even though we know the roads are in bad condition. I suspect in that case that the level of taxation imposed by the municipality on the residents is probably very low. In effect, what we are saying is that you have not shown us, as required, how you can afford to repay this loan simply because you have not indicated that you will increase your service fee or your property tax rate or whatever to raise the amount of funding required.

So if in our opinion it is possible the level of taxation is ' low in that municipality, that it would be possible for the municipality to increase their tax rate so that they could raise the amount of money, indeed, we would probably refuse. In other words, what we are saying, agree to increase your taxes to raise the amount of money that you will need and we will, perhaps, approve it.

Now, in some cases we have had situations where road improvements are absolutely essential and the municipality is already at a fairly high tax level, as much as the municipality feels and as much as we feel they can afford and in isolated instances we have approved more, yes. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): The hon. the member for Baie Verte - White Bay. Mr. Speaker, my que MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the President of the Council. I realize the hon. gentleman is having a busy day but there are so many empty places in the 2186

August 16, 1979, Tape 863, Page 4 -- apb MR. RIDEOUT: front benches. I understand that the Minister of Tourism (Mr. Pow~r)-wi11 be meeting 21.87

August 16, 1979 Tape 864 PK- 1 Mr. Rideout: with the Federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. McGrath) on Thursday to discuss the- and the top item on the agenda will be the transfer of responsibility for fishery wardens in the Province to the Provincial Government. I wonder if the minister could tell me whether or not the Province has looked into the actual cost of this particular transfex; and whether or not any agreement has been reached between the Province and the Federal Government with regards to cost sharing the proposal.

My understanding is that it would be about $25 million in the entire tourism budget~ I believe it is $21 million this year. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position at the present time to make any observation in detail concerning the question. However, I can say that if such a transfer of jurisdiction does transpire,with the attendant extra cost there is obviously going to have to be compensation from those people who previously had the responsibility for it, i.e., the Federal Government.

But I cannot really respon~ in a great deal of detail as I am sure the hon. member will appreciate. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired . On behalf of all han. members I wish to welcome to the gallery today the Executive and Members Of The Eastern Newfoundland Life Underwriters Association. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR I'IHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: MR. MARSHALL: The han. President of the Council. Mr.

Speaker, I have the response to the question addressed to me yesterday by the hon. member for Burin- Placentia West (Mr. Hollett). As the han. member will realize there were two patrol vessels of the RCHP in the Province. They Z188

August 16, 1979 Tape 864 PK - 2 Mr. Marshall: were entitled The Standoff based at Burin and The Centennial based at Fortune. The hen. member's question involved as to whether or not one of these vessels was no longer going to be in use? And the answer is , yes. The RCMP have advised that the need for larger vessels has lessened particularly because the RCMP in recent years,as a result of modern police methods and the use of helicopters stationed in the Province, has what they deem to be a more effective meana of surveillance than the boats.

Consequesntly, they have advised that they will be disposing of The Centennial and they will be transferring The Standoff; which is the other patrol vesse~ to Fortune. Now, the selection of Fortune as the site for The Standoff, I might emphasi~was the decision of the ROMP. The vessel is used in federal work mainly, the enforcement of federal regulations as opposed to provincial regulations, and the Province pays none of the costs.

The Province will not be losing any RCMP personnel because the five RCMP persons who were on the vessel before will be deployed to other areas of the Province for the purpose of enforcement of other laws1 which brings us back to the question the hon. member for LaPoile (~tr. Neary) asked today of the need for more surveillance in lawbreaking So they are being used in the Province - the personnel concerned. As far as the government is concerned it is really a federal matter because the vessel is used primarily for the enforcement of federal regulations.

We do as a matter of courtesy receive advice in the matter being responsible for the administration of justice , obviously, but the government would be indeed hesitant in a case such as this to interfere with the assessment of the RCMP who are the experts and give us the advice that this is the best and most useful way to use the resources of the RCMP in the Province. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Lands and Forests. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, y esterday the hen. g entleman for Bonavista North (Mr. Stirling) asked a question in connection with the 2189

August 16, 1979 Tape 864 P·t< - 3 Hr. ~!organ : possibility of the Rayo sawmill in the Gambo area being dismantled and so ld i n that form . I n the position as Acting ~linister of Industria ·! Development, ! took it upon myself today to discuss with the officials of both departments , Forestry and Industrial oevelopmen~to determine wheth er or not these rumour~ were correct or accurate. The fact is that tha t sawmill operation has been inactive for some time now, and· t.~e Department of Industrial. Development in conjunction with the Development eorporation have been attempting to find possible operators .

They called fo r proposals some time ago, and unfortunately none were acceptable to them from the local level. Some con.sideration had been given to the possibility of dismantling, but because of the recent fire, I say the recent fire in the rec.ent sea son, in t.qe general area. 60 , 000 acres being burnt that . now the situation is different . Therefore , we are now looking at proposals from local operators, in fact, local in one conte nt of being from t he general area , another from the St. John's area . And we are hoping 2190

August 16,1979 Tape No. 865 AH-1 MR. MORGAN: that the Development Corporation in conjuncticr. with the department can find one of these two proposals now beinq looked at acceptable to them. We can reactivate the mill and then of course utilize the burnt wood in the general area. 5 OME HON. ME~'BERS : MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. HOUSE: · Hear, hear: The hon. Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I have the answers to four questions put on the Order Paper by the hen. member for LaPoile. (Mr.Neary) These are the four that were put on for Health.

One of them there referring to the number of cases of tuberculosis in Daniel's Harbour and Flowers Cove. There were fifteen cases in Daniel's Harbour in 197R . and to date, in these three years, only two in Flowers Cove and it was not considered to be an epidemic there. The causes, of course - I am advised by the director there that because of an historical high incidence of tuberculosis in the Province there still exists a reservoir of people who have had tuberculosis and others who have contacted it and have resisted the disease·, and they always have to keep watching out for outbreaks. MR.

ROBERTS: They x-rayed everybody who was in Flowers Cove last year. MR.HOUSE: They x-rayed a lot. There wel!e only two t..'J.ough , two isolated cases. MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible). ~R.HOUSE: Two cases in Flowers Cove. Yes. The other one there-and the hon. member asks this just about every year - is the nu."llber ,of cases of battered wives. We can never get that statistic. I just want to advise the House that we do not get that statistic but I believe there is a group trying to locate that kind of information. I believe the Status for Women have a committee working on it. We do not get that information.

It is not an any statistical information that we receive at the department. With regard to Z191.

August 16,1979 Tape No. 865 AH-2 MR. HOUSE: the number of hospitals in the Province with dialysis machines, I tt.ink the question was, to be equipped this year with dialysis machines: The fact is there are only three machines in the Province, one ~n Corner Brook and two here in St. John • s. We are not goinq the approach for dialysis machines in the hospitals instead we are trying to use the home dialysis and there are a number of these in operation now and we are preparing a number of people for them. MR. NEARY: one? MR. HOUSE: the - MR. ROBERTS: are there getting dialysis in the Province~ MR.

HOUSE: are about - something like eignty. MR. ROBERTS: who should be dialysised who are not being? MR. HOUSE: What about the fourth The fourth one was on How many patients In the Province there Are there any people Not to my knowledqe. I think everybody is being dialyzed. Most of them are accessible to either the Corner Brook or the St. John's units. I believe we are talking about the Central Newfoundland area and there are only about five people accessible if it were in the Central Newfoundland area. MR. SIMMONS: You gave three answers. You said you were going to give four. MR.

HOUSE: The other one was on tne - There are a number of questions in one relating to the number of abortions in the Province. I believe I answered that in Oral Questions earlier in the year. AN !!ON. MEMBER: No. You did not. 2192

August 16,1979 Tape No. 865 AH-3 MR. HOUSE: Yes, to the hon. member. And that one, in the case of t~~ Health Sciences Complex,the question was the number! 475. AN HON .MEMBER: So far this year? MR. HOUSE: No. That was 1978. We have no figures this year. And the reasons for these? We do not have that information. They are all classed as therapeutic abortions. MR. ROBERTS: There is some doubt whether they are lawful if they are not. !-!R. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: (Sinnns) member for LaPoile. !'.R. NEARY: A point of order. A point of order. The ho~. !'.r.

Speaker, I still have about thirty-eight questio~~on the Order Paper unanswered and the biggest culprit, Sir, is the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collinsl. Mr. Speaker, I would like for Your Honour to advise me .i£ Your Honour can bring pressure to bear on ministers? If I go to the trouble - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh , oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: !'.r.

Speaker, I go to the trouble to write these questions and put them on the Order Paper through Your Honour's office and the biggest culprit is the Minister of Finance, Sir, who has refused so far to give me the information I have asked for in connection with Labrador Linerboard. Is there anything Your Honour can do to bring pressure to bear on the ministers to give me answers to the questions that I have put on the Order Paper? DR. COLLINS: MF. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: To that point of order. To the point of order. ~I.

Speaker, in regard to ~~at point of order, I do not think there is any point of order whatever.There is no onus put on tr.e minister to respond but I would like to reassure ~~e House that the minister will respond- 2193

August 16, 1979 Tape No. 866 DW - 1 DR. J. COLLI~S: At this point in time I will have to tell the hon. member that the department is working diligently and some of the questions he asked are putting a tre- menelaus strain on the resources of the d~partment to dig out this information. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! ~1R. SPEAKER: (SBt'1S) To the point of order, obviously the question should be ~ut ~uring Oral Question Period and t~ere are certainly precedents for ~~is particular ruling that I am about to make. In fact, in the last two days we have had the same point of order and the same ruling.

I '>10ulcl rule that there is not a JOOint of order in this particular circumstance because of the fact that ministers are not required to answers questions. ORDERS OF THE 'JAY Order ':>, Bill No. SO Motion, the hon. the Minister of ~1ines and Energy to introduce a bill, "An Act To ,.urther .~!" end The C.overnment - British Newfoundland Exploration Limited Authorization Of l'.greeinent Act, 1957," carried. On motion, bill no. 50 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. the !1inister of Finance. DR. COLLI:-.!S: Mr.

Speaker, I have receive<:' a messacre from His Honour The Lieutenant-C.overnor. "!R. SPEl'.KE R: This rressage is addressed to t~e hen. the ~1inister of Finance. "I, the Lieutenant-Governor of t'-.e Province of 'l ewfoundland, trans!"li t estimates of sums required for the public service of the Province for L~e year ending 31st. clav of ~1arch 1'?91), ~y way of further supply and in accordance with the nrovisions of the o. ritish " ort h America Act of 1867, as amencler., I recommend these estimates to the House of Asserrbly. (Sqr) <,ardon 7'-.• '-linter Lieutenant-\,overnor." 21.94

August 16, 1979 !-lR. SPEAKER: (SI!zy-,

S) Belle Isle. ~- E. ROBERTS: (Mr. Marshall) calls Tape ~o. 866 ow - 2 ~e hen. member for the Strait of Before the Government House Leader whatever order he wishes/ could the Hinister of Finance simply set me straight? Obviously, we have to have a letter under the British North America Act before we proceed with the bills but as I recall it,and I have not had an opport~~ity to ~~eck it7 the Lieutenant-GOvernor already sent us a little note recommending the main Estimates and that note there referred to Estimates for the current year. Is this money over and above the main EstiMates or what is it? MR.

SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COUINS: Mr. Speaker, this is the Main Supply Bill, these are the main Estimates. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for the Strait ·of Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: But have we not already had a letter concerning - Your Honour, I know it is the Main Supply Bill that was what the letter said when the Speaker read it but what I am wondering is have we not already had a letter covering the ~~ain Supply. I roean that is the letter which the ~!inister of Finance (Dr. Collins) read when he gave his Budget Address, is it not? I am not it is, I am just saying I want to know.

How !'lany letters are "'e getting? MR. SPEAIC:':R: The hen. '1inister of Finance. DR. J. COLLI"S: Mr. Speaker, if I can just consult with the officers of the Table just for a moment. ~!R. SPEAKER: "lR. E • ROBFRTS : of t-1-te day. :·!R. SPEAKER: Yes. I am all for going ahead with the business The hen. President of the Council >rhile "~ are waiting for Dr. Collins. 2195

"'I.. August 16 . 1979 Tape No . 866 Dtv - 3 c·!H. \~ . ~l.:O..!~SHi\LL : The point is certa .inl y well taken . The Committee of Supply is a bit of a jung l e . •~e were u:1de.r the impression tha t we had to ha •te a message i.e . today for the pas s age of the bill and the :::-e was somethi:'lg Cistinct betw ee :'l that. and ~he 9udget . But the hen. member ' s obse~ation is well tal<en . Ke could look into it if we could proceec . ~R . E • R03EP.TS : wi~~ the Supply 9ill . ~m . t·1 . 1-lARSaa.:r.L : ~: R . E. !'.OBE!~TS : I am all for going ahead, Mr. Speaker , You would like to get that c larified.

I would just like to get to the rotto m of how many messages we neeG. I gather t~P.re i s :10 supply being ~e~uested over and above ~~t which was requested in the original Sstir.lates tabled by the Finance Hi:'li st:er. l-!!'.. :·: . H.~. RSHALL : ~!?. . E . RO&R!'S : That i s r ic;:.t . Okay , that is all . \\e ·.rill take the poim: unfer advisement . ~~e hor. . President of the Council . t:r . Spea~er, I r-1:>ve t:-,at the :ness age of His Eonour , the Lieut:enant- C-overnor be re·fer :::-ed to a Colllmittee of supply .

On ~tion, that ~he House resolve itsel f into a Coll:I'Gictee of th.e Whole on Supply, ~! :::- . Speaker left the Chair . 2196 ..

August 16, 1979 Tape No. 867 NM - 1 DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Baird): The hen. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, as was stated a moment ago this is the main supply bill for the fiscal year '79-'80 and as the Budget Speech disclosed the total amount of supply requested this fiscal year is $1.213 billion, in actual fact $1,213,567,700. Now hen. members will recall that in two interim supply bills _the House had assented to a total of $579,180,000 and this supply bill now is a request to supply Her Majesty with the remainder which amounts to $634,387,700. The

schedule in the bill outlines the expenditures for each department and as hen. members well know these - MR. ROBERTS: MR. CHAIRMAN: of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. The hen. member for the Strait I do not want to it1terrupt the minister giving such a learned point but could the Chairman call the bill, or at least the motion. I mean I gather we are on the main supply motion but I do not know what number it is. MR. MARSHALL: MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. MARSHALL: I think I can clarify it, Mr. Chairman. The hon. House Leader.

What we have to do in supply is we move that the estimates be carried and then we come back and when the bill is introduced then the remarks MR. ROBERTS: We have to move a motion. We have to carry a motion and I just want to know which motion it is. I mean all I am pointing out is that the minister in his rush to have us get our teeth into this, the motion has not yet been called by the Chair. Let us have a motion before us. MR. MARSHALL: The procedure is that the House Leader moves and I now move that the total contained in the estimates be 2197

August 16, 1979 Tape No. S67 NM - 2 carried, then the Cha.irman reports to tile Committee, then he comes bad< '"'i th tile bU.~ and then the hen . minister could perhaps more appropriately make his address to the bil~ then at tha~ time. MR. ROBERTS : ~IlL 1-IARSHALL: Now we are getting there. so I move then, Hr. Chairman, that the total .contained in the estimates, that is the amount of $1,213,567,700, as sh~·~ i.n the estima~es, be carried . :-ffi . ROBERTS: MR.. 14.1\RSHALL: ~L~ . ROBERTS: the main supp l y. HR. ~1ARSEALL : All right· Now, ·,;e carry thac. l-ie carry that an - Carried.

Now,get up a.,d move And then he reports back and c..l)en we come back and debate <:he bill. MR. ROBERTS: Now we are getting there . HR. MARSHALL: HR. ROBERTS: ~IR . CHA:IRI<'.At; (Baird) : H.R. NEARY.: on the ~linister of Finance? MR. ~!A..~SHALL : rise, and rapor~ progress . HR. ROBERTS: ~!R . N£.l>,l'~ '{ : Finance. HR.. CHAIRMAN (Bai.rd ) : progress - 1-'.R. ROBERTS: MR. CE!AIJ~~!AN : M..~ . ROBE..~S ·: ~ righ·t , now ~~e are getting there. Then the mi~ster should not say a word - No, not yet 'John' . H.old on no•,;. 11o~d on no~ . Does the motion ca r ~J?

Carried . :-rny do you n<:>t puc a leash Where is the conductor today? Mr. Chairman, I m.ove that the Commie tee Report some progress . They . .::e comin g to ge~ c.he Minister of I move that the Committee rise, report And ask leave co si~ again . - and ask leave to sit again . vie will need you agcu.n, Sir. 2198

August 16, 1979 Tape No. 867 NM - 3 ~IR . CHAIRI-IAN {Baird ) : Carried . ~ty finest hour. MR. ROBERTS: The Acting Minis~e r of Indus~rial Development is in a bad mood today is he? {Inaudible) . AN liON. MEMBER: ~ . ~OBE..IU'S: ~o. ! co believe ~~e finance procedure should be done properly if the Minis~er of - whatever he is - does not mind. \Ye are only talking Sl billion . On mo~ion.} tha t ~he committee rise, repor~ progress and ask leave to sit again, ~lr. Spe~er returned co t.~e Chair. 2:199 .. ..

August 16, 1979, Tape 868, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Simms) : The hon. the member for Htlll1ber West. MR. BAIRD: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply have considered the matters to them referred and report having passed the amount of $1,213,567,700 contained in the Estimates of Supply and ask leave to sit again. On motion, report received and adopted Committee ordered to sit again presently, by leave.

On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply to consider the report of the Committee of Supply with respect to the estimates of l979-80,together with a resolution and a bill attached thereto, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN(Baird): Order.

RESOLUTION That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the granting to Her Majesty for defraying certain expenses of the Public Service for the financial year ending L~e 31st day of March, 1980, the sum of six hundred and thirty-four million three hundred and eighty-seven thousand seven hundred dollars ($634,387,700). MR. CHAIRMAN: DR. COLLINS: 1-'.R. CHAIRMAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: DR. COLLINS: Shall the Resolution carry? Mr. Chairman. The hon. the Minister of Finance. Hear, hear: Mr.

Chairman, may I start by thanking my hon. friend and colleague across the way who was a former constituent of mine, calling so vociferously for my few remarks. My remarks are very few. Hon. members have the bill before them, they have the

schedule before them, they know the amounts to be voted for each department, they know that these were discussed in great detail in Committee except for the first three items ; Consolidated Fund Services, Legislative and Executive Council 2200

August 16, 1979, Tape 868, Page 2 -- apb DR. COLLINS: which we~e considered in the Committee of the Whole. Those are the only remarks ;r would like to make . MR. S:U'lMONS: MR. O!.AIR.'IAN (Baird): Surgeo - Say d'Espoir . ~lR. SIMMONS: the number of the Supply Bill. SOME BON. MEMBERS: MR. SUII'tONS: Mr. Chairman. The hon. the member for Would somebody t ell me Thirty - nine. Thank you . Now that we have established what we are talkin9 about, Mr. Chairman, and tor the be:~efit of my good friend from Bonavista South (~.

Norgan), •11e are only tall<ing about $634 tnillion really, only $634 million, because the rest we already gave approval for earlier. Some two or three w~~s ago $225 million and before that we were gracious eno ugh to lee them a few millions to get them through the electio .n . But now we are only talking $634 millio n so I can well understand the minister's ilt1Patie nce in not wanting to deal too much .in formality, not make sure it is done right because after all, it is only a little over a half bill i on dollars . Mr.

Chair.nan, most of the things that: need to be said have been said in the estimates Committees, the three of them , and in the Committee of the lolhole and Committee of Supply so my r ·emarks will be very brief. It is not our intentio n on this side of the Rouse to delay this bill or to other11ise occupy the time of the Committee 2201

August 16, 1979 Tape 869 EC - 1 :1R. SIM.'!ONS: with speeches from other of my coll e agues. We would not want that to be interpreted as having in any way eased off on our criticism of some points in · the Budget. But I believe ~~e process that we have gone through with Committees has served very well members on both sides of the House who wanted to record their approbation for the good things in the Budget and to record their constructive criticism for the other items. Mr. Chairman ,while I have the floor, I do want just to say a very brief word about the Committees.

I was not a member of either one of ~~e Estimates Committees, and indeed, the only Committee I attended was the Government Services Committee at which time the Finance Estimates were being deliberated on. And during the three Concurrence Debates, I was absent from the Chamber because of the meetings of the provincial auditors and the Public Accounts Committee c.'1airrnen, so I did not really get an opportunity to speak in either one of the Concurrence Debates al~~ough I had fully intended to do so. I do want, Mr.

Chairman, neve~~eless, to just go on record as saying how much I endorse the Committee system which is now in vogue and in practice here. It is a system that I advocated but that many others advocated too, including the present Premier, and to his credit, he has taken the initiative in having the system introduced and h as allowed it to work i n ti<is House. And I believe, Mr. Chairman, it worked very well.

I have been in the House now for six years or seven or eight sessions - seven sessions, I guess - and we have never had in my time in the House any reall y productive deliberation of the Estimates, no item by item scruti·ny of the Estimates . l'le can all assign blame as to why that was the case, but that aside, ~lr. Chairman, ~'le Estimates we re never properly scr utinized i n my time in this House until this year. S01·!E Hml • ~!E:1BERS : ~IR. SI~.MONS: Hear, hear!

And I say to the Committee that I believe this year for the first time, th~~s to the new Estimates Co~ittee systen, we have had sorne~~ing approaching proper scrutiny of the Estimates of the ,various departments. l.nd in that respect, Hr. C:..'oairman, I believe much 2202

August 16, 1979 Tape 869 EC - 2 MR. SIM!10NS: credit is due the three chairmen of ~~e Estimates Committees from Stephenville (Mr. F. Stagg), St. John's Nest (Mr. H. Barrett) and St. John's North (Mr. u. Carter), and the members of the Committees who, it is very obvious from press clippings alone - and I must say, I must rely on press reports because I was not by and large at the committee rreetings - but it is obvious from press reports alone that committee ~mbers from both sides of the House did t_;,eir homework, and I believe they did it well.

And the result was that they were able to ask some fairly probing questions and able in many cases to get some fairly adequate answers. Mr.

Chairman, I do not think it is possible, given the limitations under which we have operated and the particular circumstances of ~~is session when we are meeting in the - I was going to say the heat of Summer, that would be somewhat an over­ statement now - but meeting during the Summer when in many cases if the truth were known, our minds may well be elsewhere - but given the particular circumstances of the recent sittings of the Estimates Committees, I t.~ink it is commendable that so much work has been done.

I do notthink it is possible, in any event, to fully scrutinize a set of Estimates every year, nor is it necessary. I would see us next year emphasize or zero in on the Estimates of certain departments or certain heads within certain departments, and another year, zero in on something else. And I believe, in that kind of spot cileck fashion, if you like, we can see that the reason for the whole process is being met, namely, to satisfy the legislators of this Province that the money of the Public Treasury is being well spent and is being well and properly assigned to various expenditure functions.

And, as I say, I do not t.~ink it is necessary to achieve that end to have a fine pencil scrutiny of every subhead every particular year as long as over a two or three or four year period you can have that kind of scrutiny. Mr. Chairman, I just want to go on the record as being in full endorsement with the procedure. 2203

,. August 16, 1979 Tape 870 PK - 1 Mr • S .immons: I think it is a good procedure. My colleague the Leader of the Opposition has already given to the House some suggestions as to how the Committee procedure can be improved. Ar.d I do not think any of us in this House fully expected that it was going to be a perfect process the first time around. Of course 1 like any human creature it is subject to some improvement. And I am hoping that perhaps the three Committee Chairmen, I say to my friends for st. John's North (~x. J. Carter) and for Stephenville (Mr.

Stagg) who are in the Chamber, and also to my friend for St. John's West (Mr. Barrett) perhaps the three Committee Chairmen, if they have not already done so, might take it upon themselves to 1 perhaps in a meeting of the three or the three with their Vice-chairmen,might take it upon themselves to make some recommendations to the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall), as to how the process can be improved in the light of their experience during the past few weeks.

I have in mind in particular the item that my colleague for Bellevue, the Leader of the Opposition made, and that is the constraints which simultaneous meetings of the Committees placed both on members of the House , as well as the press, and the public in general. I believe that is a point that has been well aired, and I would hope can be accommodated before the Estimates Committees next meet. Mr. Chairman, the bill before us right now would have us give sanction for the remainder of the monies that government needs in the current fiscal year, the remaining $634,387,000.

That $6 million represents just about half or just over half the total amount that the government has reauested of the House for this current fiscal year. And as I have said, in two bits, one last Spring and one a week or two ago, we have already given authority for an expenditure of five hundred plus million dollars, and this would be the remainder of the financial authority needed by the House,or by the government rather, by the government of the House for this fiscal year. 2204

August 16, 1979 Tape 870 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: The bill, Mr. Speaker, I believe all Committee members are aware,is another way or is a summation, if you like, the formality, if you like, the formality required, an important formality, but the formality required to give effect to the agreements we have made in the Estimates Committees and in the scrutiny of the three first heads in this House. Now, Mr.

Chairman, before concluding my remarks I just want to record one or two points which I feel very strongly and would normally have made in the Concurrence Debates but I was absent from the House during those debates, so I shall take the liberty or use the opportunity of making them here and making them very briefly. And one of these points relates to my very deep concern about the deception of this year's Budget, the deception as it relates to resource development.

I believe people all over this Province are committed to the idea that our salvation is in generating new dollars. our salvation,economically 1 is in resource development. They are committed to that. They are prepared to make certain sacrifices to see that economic development in the resource area pursued. the genuine thing. They are prepared to make sacrifices for What bothers me, Mr.

Speaker, and what I find very deceptive is that the public of Newfoundland through a lot of rhetoric in the Budget , rhetoric during the campaign which we have been through just a month or so ago and public statements generally from spokesmen for the government, the public generally are being conned, Mr. Chairman, conned into thinking that we are on a substantial resource development strategy when the facts, Mr. Speaker, the figures in t he Budget belie that kind of impression. Z205

August 16, 1979 Tape No. 871 SD - 1 MR. SIMMONS: and that is the deception of this Budget more than anything else, Mr. Chairman. It holds forth the promise of real performance by this government in the resource sector Qfid yet 1if you put aside the particularly healthy 5dtuation of the fishery, a circumstance, Mr. Chairman, that the government cannot share much of the credit for, a circumstance which is related very largely to the renewed fish stocks which in turn relates to the initiative of the former federal administration in respect to the 200 mile limit, and so Mr.

Chairman, if you lay aside the particularly healthy state of the fishery at this particular time, one is hard pressed 7I would say, Mr. Chairman, one is hard pressed to find any real performance in the resource development sector. And yet, Mr.

Chairman, we see in the Budget a lot of talk about the renewed, stepped up, increased emphasis on resource development, and one would be inclined to take the government and the Minister of Finance at his word until you check the figures and you find that the estimates are betraying the minister, that there is not, you will find, there is not the emphasis on resource development, inueed, beyond that, there is a de-emphasis. There is less money being spent, for example, on rural development then was the case last year.

The Budget, if you scr~tinize the figures department by depart.'llent, clearly illustrates that the minister, unwittingly, I am sure, is not levelling with tile taxpayers or with t.'J.e House on the matter of resource development. ae tells them one thing, the figures tell quite a contrary story altoget.'ler. l•Ir. Chairman, that is the oae issue that: I want to draw particular attention to in t:1is 3udget anci in these set of estimates now b~fore the Comr.".it.tec... • .: .~ deception-3ecause it goes l:.eyonci, dr.

C:1airraan, 11het.'Jer we are going to be al:.le to pay our bills or whet.'J.er we are going to be all employed or wnether -~~e are going to ;1ave comfortable social 2206

A~.:gus:: 16, 1979 Tape No . 871 SD- 2 welfar .e situations or better roads) - :: goes right to the L~tcgrity of government. People have got to be able to believe t.hose they put in public office. I n·ave :10t said t:.~ey do , very often they do not. and very oft:en they ;,ave good reason not to believ e tnose they put L"l public office 1 ::..:t tbat does not mean, :-1r. Chai=an, tnat governm.ent should t:ake licence in this particular issue . Gcvernllient should show the •.;ay when it come to basic integrity, basic believabi l ity.

And I say the government here and in its statemen~ prior to the election, in statements by spokesmen for goverr.n .ent genera lly, the goverr.ment: is being very 1 very deceptive o n its stance on resource developmen t. The minister •.r..s a bit nearer the trut.'1 in one o f his ineerviews about: the d.me the Budget came down when he referred to it as a hold-the -line .Budget . I am not adv-ocating it should be t.'lat kind ·Of Budget, I am just saying <:.'lat. t:hat is tile reality 1 that: at beGt it can be called a hold­ the - line Budc;et. Hy friend from 3onavista North (:1r. L .

Stirling) had a better term for it when he referred to it as a new kind of dance - it was a step forward and ~.;o seeps backwards - but at the very least, :·tr. C.'lairman 1 tO be kindest, c.he .Budget, as the mi:Uster himself said, was a llolci-the-u.ne Budget , and he ·.;as nearer ·to the truth when h~ said that. 2207 ..

August 16, 1979 Tape 872 EC - 1 !1R. Sii•l'10NS: Too bad his speech writer did not have ~~e courage and the forthrightness to say that in the printed script which appears in the Budget Speech, because in the Budget Speech we are being told ~~~t a new day has dawned for resource development in this Province - AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, yeah! 1-IR. SI!1MONS: - and in the Estimates we are being told that they are backtracking on resource development. That, ~. Chairman, because it relates to basic integrity, that, Mr. Chairman, because it gets at ~~e very soul of why we are here and why we are here as a people, that, Mr.

Chairman, is the basic issue about this Budget. It is highly, grossly, insultingly deceptive, and that I object ~o, Mr. Chairman, very strongly. Having said that, Mr. Chairman, I say to ~~e Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall), it is not our wish to get into a protracted debate on this and unless the government sees some need to, it is our intention at this point to allow this to pass because we would like to get on ~o some other bills which the Government House Leader has given notice he will call before the Committee. SOME HOl-1. ~!EZ1BERS: Hear, hear!

On motion, that the Committee rise and report having passed a certain resolution and recommends ~~at a bill be introduced to give effect to the same, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. On motion, report received and adopted.

On motion, resolution read a first and second time. l1otion, the han. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act For Granting To Her Aajesty Certain Sums Of .'Ioney For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service Fe!: The Financial Year :O:nding The Thirty-First Day Of l·!arch One Thousand Nine Huncired .'uld Eighty Ana For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service," (Bill :·Ia. 39) . Un rr1otion, Bill do.. 39, reaci a first, secor~d anci third tine , ordered passeC and its ':itle be as on t..l-J.e Order Paper. 2208

August 16, 1979 :·IR. SPEAKER: (Simms) DR. COLLINS: Tape 873 NM - l The han. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I have received a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. :-t."{. SPEAKER: This message is addressed to the han. ~e :1inister of Finance, "I, t.l-te Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of ~'lewfoundland transmit supplementary estimates of sums required for the Public Service of t.~e Province for the year ending the 31st.

March 1979 by way of supplementary supply and in accordance with the provisions of the British North America Act of 1867 as amended I recommend these estimates to the House of Assembly. Signed Gordon A. Winter, Lieutenant-Governor." The han. the President of the Council. HR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I !lOVe that the message of His Honour, t.~e Lieutenant-Governor be referred to a Committee of Supply. On rnotion.that the House resolve itself into Committee of t.~e Whole on supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. HP •• CHAIRMAN: (Baird) Order, please!

RESOLUTIOU: That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the granting to Her Najesty for defraying certain expenses of the Public Service for the financial year ending the 31st. day of :1arc.~, 1979, the sum of forty-one million one hundred and fourteen thousand dollars ($41,114,000). :•!R. CHAIRl-lAN: (Baird) DR. COLLINS: The han. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Chairman, the Supplementary Supply Bill amounts to over $41 million and this total amo,mt relates to t.~e special warrants which were requested and which were previously tabled in this House.

I do have details available but I do not t.~ir~ it is necessary at t.~is point to go through them. The details were gone over at the time these special warrants were tabled. In the

schedule there is the amounts laid out for each department in this matter. :1R. CHAI?.MAl.'l: Bay d' Espoir. :-!R. SI:'l:.'IOllS: The han. the member for Burgee - Mr. Chairman, Bill ~o. 30, the so-called Supplementary Supply Bill,would provide t.~e necessary rubber stamp, 2209

i.,ugust 16, 1979 Tape 873 ~R. Sl:·!MUNS : but at the same time a necessary rubber stamp for $41 million incurred. in Supplementary Supply oy way of ..,.arrancs and so on . and it is relating to expenditures t."lat .... ere incurred prior to March of ' 79, up to and including March of '79. '!':'1ere are a couple of fairly large expenditures there , The one in Incustrial Development!I preswne , relates to the Linerboarci , Is !:ha~ a fair aSSW!IPtion? Ot.':lerwise, :1r. Chairman, 2210 •· ..

Auguse 16, 1979 Tape No. 874 AH-1 MR. SIMMONS: I think we have had fairly adequate opportunity to debate these amounts already and for our part we do not intend to delay the proceedings insofar as Bill No. 30 is concerned. On motion, that the Co111111i ttee rise and report having passed the Resolution and reco11111end that. a bill be introduced to give effeet to the same, and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. On motion report received and adopted. On ~otion, Resolution read a first and second time .

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act For Granting To Her Majesty Certain Sums Of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thirty-First Day Of Mar~ One Thousand Nine Hundred And Seventy-Nine And For Other PuJ:Poses Relating To The Public Service," carried. (Bill No. 30). On motion, Bill No. 30 read a first, second and third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. On motion , that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain re•olution•, Mr. Speaker, left the Chair. Z21.1

August 16, 1979 Tape 875 PK - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: (BAIRD): Order! MR. MARSHALL: Bill No. 35 A bill, "An Act To Authorize The Raising Of Money By Way Of Loan By The Province." RESOLUTION That it is expedient to bring in a measure to authorize the raising from time to time by way of loan on the credit of the Province the sume of one hundred and sixty million dollars ($160,000,000) and such additional sum or sums of money as may be required to retire, repay, renew or refund securities issued onder any Act of the Province. MR. CHAIRMAN (BAIRD) : DR. J. COLLINS: MR. CHAIRMAN: DR.J. COLLINS: Shall the resolution carry? Mr.

Chairman. The hen. Minister of Finance. A word about the amount there. The resolution states that the amount of the Loan Bill is $160 million. The Budget indicated that there would be a deficiency, a combined deficiency on current and capital account of just slightly less than $137 million. Now,the government entered this fiscal year in a pre-borrowed condition to the extent.of $50 million U.S. or $58 million Canadian. On the other hand,the Province has out- standing Treasury Bills to the amount of $65 million. These debts were incurred at a rate of borrowing at $5 million for a total of thirteen weeks.

Now,this has been the practice for sometime, to undertake short-term credit in this way because the rate of interest on short-term usually has been less than that on long-term credit. However , the terms are such that now this is no longer true, and short-term credit rates now are tending to equal and sometLmes actually exceed long-term debt. So it is the government's intention to call in the short-term debt in the amount, as I have mentioned, of $65 2212

Auaust 16. 1979 Taoe 875 PK - 2 Dr. Collins: million, so this will have to be borrowed and 1 therefore,added on to our long-term debt. The long-term debt is finally extended a little further by a sum, I think it is $16 million, bringing it up to the total of $160 million, because, of course, the Budget cannot be absolutely precise andJtherefore,a certain-amount of flexibility is required. This amount of flexibility - AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). DR. COLLINS: Ron. members will note that in previous years, and this goes back a long, long tirne,there tended to be a greater margin of flexibility than this year.

This is probably the smallest margin of flexibility that this House has been asked to vote for many years. And, of course, in the 1960's,hon. members will recall that most of the borrowing was carried out in this Province without actually getting the authority of the House to do so in a prior fashion . . So this $16 million is available to us, it may not be used, and if it is to be used, of course, as all the borrowing will take place 1 it will be brought before Cabinet in the first instance.

But we need the $16 million as a cushion or as an amount of flexibilitv that will allow us to meet our commitments as the vear aces bv. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN (BAIRD) : The han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: ~I. Chairman, first of all before just saying a brief word to this particular bill, perhaps it is the time for somebody to say aloud what all of have been mumbling for years and that is that somebody, the people at the Table, and perhars the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) ought to rationalize this procedure that we have been through on Money Bills.

It seems that most of the things that we do in this House have some reason. If you search back into history you will find some reason for it. 3ut on this one I can find nobody, no parlia~entary authority who can find any rhyme or reason for what we have been doing, no reason of protection a: the public purse, no r.aason at all for the kind o£ 'rocedure t:1at 2213

August 16, 1979 Tape No. 876 DW- l ~· !R. R. SH'MONS: we have gone through. It all seems so meaningless J ! would hope that somebody could set their minds to rationalizing this before the next time round because it rnust seem particularly ludicrous if you sit from the gallery and watch it. It is ludicrous enough down here but we have seen it many times and we have seen it three times, I think, already today. But it certainly needs to be rationalized, Mr. Chai~~n, and the Govern~ ment House Leader Ulr. Marshall) would do a great service to us all if he did something about it. else Mr.

Chairman, I am expecting something from the Government House Leader. It is twenty minutes to five and we go into the Late Show at 5:30 p.m. and we have given notice that we would like to get on to the .other bills about advertising , insurance and so on. But at the same time, ~. r. C!'J.airman, - ~IR. S • ,NEARY : \•7e could meet toniqht. MR. R. SIMMONS: I would be prepared to meet tonight if the Governrr.ent House Leader ~~uld now make the same speech on the province's debt that he made from that corner eve~ there so many times when he was a government backbencher.

I now ask him to tell us where he stands now on the increasing debt of the Province, a debt that is up around or over $2.5 billion? what are his views now? What is he doing now that he is on the inside to keep down the puhlic debt? Now he can sit there very calmly, ~~r. ChairiT'.an, notwithstanding the zpeeches he made suer a short while ago) he can sit there very calmly now and hear the !o!inister of Finance (Dr. Collins) say'Well it is only $160 million, you know, we only asked for $137 million but we thought we would ask for a few mere IT'illion. You never boys, we might need it, let us cover all our bets.

These peocle, Mr. Chairman, talk about money as though it is not their own anc that is their problem, they are spendina soMebody else's noney, and it does not matter so much, it seems. I h<>.ve never seen, ~ ~r. Chairman, suer. blatant cc isregard for public trust as emanates 2214

August 16, 1979 Tape No. 876 DN - 2 ~!R. R. SIMMONS: from that hen. crowd when they talk about money matters. Let us have an extra session tonight to hear the member for St. John's Edst (Mr. Marshall). I.would even go so far as to suggest the House give him special leave to go back and actually read from Hansard despite the rule about not reading your speeches, even if he never had time to make up a speech for tonight, let him take the Hansard of a couple of years ago where he made that speech about debt of the Province and let us let him read the speecn,I am prepared to sit here the hour or so.

Surely, he has not changed his po.,ition, "'.r. Chairman. Surely the speech is still up to date. Surely he is not going to tell us that ~e has had one of those - 1-!R. S. NEARY: Born-again (inaudible) . HR. R. SIMMONS: - Damascus Road trips in the reverse order. Su.rely, he has not gone from light to darkness, Mr. Chairman. MR. STAGG: (Inaudible) us all. ~!R. R. SI~NS: Was that Lot or the wife just spoke? AN HON. ~lEHBER: You would not know it unless you tasted it . 11R. :i1.. SI~·!HO>TS: Hr. Chairman, I suggest that my colleague quit •.<hile he is behind. ''r.

Chairman, I would really like to know where the me~ber for St. John's East stands now on the issue of rapidly accumulating debt because I h~ve news for hirn 1 it is accumulating even r-,ora rapicly. It is getting tigger~ "'he per capita de'bt of this Province is larger now than when he made his speech two years ago. I~deed 1 the only adjustment he need make in his speech is in the figures. The ·figures are larger, perhaps his concern is larger. I have not heard much about it lately, is that his price for being in Cabinet? Or will, ~r. rhairman, he take his marbles again and go :,.o~e as ~e die: once before.

I thouc;ht.ir.itially.it was on a matter of J?rinciple. He told us it '.-Jas a matter of principle, it 01ad to do with the goverrunent's handling of public tendering. But t!':len when I heard his song anc ncmce curing the last year or so on public tendering~I feil to see ,.,h3.t princicle he quit ovc:r-. i~!ill he again take his narl:les and ao ho~e? 2215

August 16, 1979 Tape ~o. 876 DW - 3 ~·1 R. R. SIK"'ONS: Is he biting his lip these days on the matter of debt? Or ~rill he stand today and tell us he is as appalled now as he was two years ago about the debt position of the Province? ;~ R. R. Sit~MO'lS: And then, Mr. Chairman, I hear the ~inister of Finance (Dr. Collins) say, 'You know, it is only $160 million • 2216

August 16, 1979 Tape No. 877 GH-1 MR. SIMMONS: And then he says, "Now, in the 1960's they used to do it this way, in the 1960's they used to do it this way". Of course, he is talking about those dirty Liberals again. "In the 1960's they used to do it this way". Mr. Chairman, to listen to the Minister of Finance, to paraphrase him rather broadly to make my point, it is as though he were saying to us, you know, in the 1960's we used to kill women and children, now we only kill children. How, Mr. Chairman, if there was a wrong in the 1960's how, Mr.

Chairman, can you justify it with what you think to be a slightly lesser wrong but a wrong nevertheless? How can the minister stand there with a straight face and tell us it is okay to keep on borrowing, borrowing, borrowing, because in his view it is not quite as bad as the other way we did it? And perhaps, Mr. Chairman, the minister from St. John's East (:·:r. Marshall) or the minister from St. John's South (Dr. Collins), the Minister of Finance, will tell us what 'brother Crosbie' thinks about all this, thinks about their present problem where they have to call in their short-term debt. Why, why?

The minister told us why, "Because", he said, "there is no particular financial advantage in doing it that way anymore because the interest rates are about the same now", he says, "the short-term interest rate is indeed about to overcome the other", he said. Why? Back to Crosbie again, are we not? Back to our good friend up in Ottawa, back to our good friend up in Ottawa, 'brother Crosbie'. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. NEARY: MR . SIMMONS: (Inaudible) hate. You must know a 'savoury' (inaudible). I neither hate Crosbie nor the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter). I pity both but I hate neither, I hate neither.

A good part and an increasing part of this government's woes, :1r. Chairman, as the minister has just illustrated will be rightly blamed and can be rightly blamed on one John Crosbie, and what you have just seen in the minister's statement about interest rates is just the tip of the iceberg, not only for Newfoundland but for all of Canada. Z21.7

Acgust 16, 1979 Tape No. 877 GH-2 !1R. SD~!ONS : :1r. Chairma."l, we have thr ee - quarters of an hour, we will give the miniseer from Se. John ' s East (~tr . Marshall) - ~tR . NEARY: in here in a minu~e . ~lR . SIHMO~!S: :or thae alone . M.R. NEARY : ~IR . SI!-U10NS: alone. ~·!R . NEARY: (Inaudible) run a motor vehicle Lf I ever succeed, it is woreh ie juse He is rearing eo go.

It has been worth it just for that If he accepts your chal~enge, I am afraid ! will have eo rise to ehe occasion. ~- S!:-!..'IONS: You might frigheen rLLm out of the challenge - no , do not tell him that , he will not get up for sure, he will not get up for sure. ~!R . J. CARTER: ~- SI!-Il·IONS: Is the member talking to himself? Basically at the moment yes, yes, yes, yes . t-tr . Chairman, it is a c:;:uarter to five and ! believe e.'le next three-quarters of an hour t..-ill be very properly spent if the member :or St . Jo~~·s Ease will give us h1s up-to-date v1ew on tne debt posi~on of che ?rovince . SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! I do not usually respond to inv i tations =rom the Opposieion but I cannot resist ehis one and it will be very short and very much to ci:e po1nt, because t he hon . member has asked :ne to ?Ut my present position - my present position is no different t.~an the cay it '"as put down in that corner, and that is to the eifect tilat this ?rovince has a horrendous debt that should be the concern oi each and every citizen in the ?rovince , and each and every word - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 2218

~ugu s t 16 , 1979 Tape No. 877 GE!-3 - I will invice at any given time a deba te as to the near and proximate causes and the faraway causes of it, but I do not think this is the point in time . But I do wish it to be on record, &ince I was invite d to say that each and every word that I said then I endorse now, and I feel that the present government that w~ have is a government which , in my assessme nt, is the best able to deal •..ri~'l this as •..rell as many of tile other problems 2219 .. ..

August 16, 1979 Tape No. 878 SD - 1 HR. li. MARSHALL: with which we are grappling. And one of the ways in which it is dealing with it is by this very loan bill itself. For some period of time, even when the Financial Administration Act was changed in 1972, when it was first brought in by this party to require there to be no secret government borrowing3 but it be before the Legislature it became a device of the civil serva .nts in this building to build a cushion into the loan bill . so that every year we were borrowing extra amounts beyond that which were authorized in the estimates themselves.

We had what they called 'a cushion'. For reasons which we need not go into, this cushion was allowed to go for year after year but the cushion this year,as a result of the Peckford administration,has been very much deflated, as a matter of fact to all intents and purposes, it is non-existent. This loan bill is for $160 million; $137 million of this is fresh borrowings that have been debated in the Budget. The other $7 million which will bring the total up to $144 million is to repay short-term borrowings.

The $50 million cushion is no longer there; it is going to be transferred to long-term debt at lower interest rates then the temporary borrowings that were done. So we get to $144 million. The cushion now is nearly $16 million which we are going to watch like hawks but which is not unreasonable when you consider it is really less than, I believe, or just about a little over one per cent of the Budget itself. This is one of the things ~~at this government is doing with respect to the public debt.

It is insisting that ~~e government only borrow, just be empowered to borrow just slightly more then the amount authorized in ~~e estimates and if any more is needed then we will come back to this House of Assembly which is ~~e proper and appropriate place to determine aLd give the final say as to when ~onies are being torrowed and ~1en 2220

August 16, 1979 Tape No. 878 SD - 2 ;.!R. W. ;·IARSHl\LL: only after a government has laid forth its programme to justify and warrant that borrowing. So that is one thing that the Peckford administration is doing - SOME HON. ME~IBERS: Hear, hear. ~!R. \-1. HARSHAU.: - and that you will see by this bill and it is one measure and one reason why this hon. member humbly stands proudly with the Peckford administration in its effort to grapple with this continuing horrendous problem) the public debt, as well as ~~e many others upon us by the previous, previous administration namely. AN HON • l1El•IBER: HR.

CHAIRWIN: ( Bail:u) 1-IR. S. NEARY: That is the Smallwood administration. The hon. member for LaPoile. Mr. Chairman, if my hon. friend, who just took his seat, told us that he is humbly proud to stand wi~~ the Peckford administration on this borrowing bill and on the dealings with the debt of ~'le Province, he was not prepared to stand with the :1oores administration. You know, the hon. gentl~~an, Sir, has changed in a few months. 1-!R. R. SI:1!·10NS: they tripped him up. t·!R. S. NEARY: No, 'Steve', for a while until For a while, that is right.

The hen. gentleman must have gone to one of these charismatic meetings and got saved and was born again. Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman­ Sir, if members paid attention to what he just said, did some pretty fancy figure skating on thin ice. The hon. gentleman has a technique that is unusual in this House, unusual in any Legislature, I suppose, in the world. The hon. gentleman gets ~P the other day in this House and admits that a mistake was wade in squandering $110 million on setting off two explosionson either side of the Strait of Belle Isle.

That was a mistake the hon. gentleman s~id, a mistake, gets up, adr.lits its a r;;istake. You would never say he was a member of t~e Cabinet, you would never say he is President of the Council. 2221

August 16, 1979 Tape No. 678 SD - 3 !1R. S • NEARY : He tells us that the mismanagement of the 11arystown Shipyards was a mistake. Now he is up telling us in the statement he made that the present position of our provincial debt is horrendous, it is horrendous, yet the hon. gentleman does nothing at all about it. The hon. gentleman makes wild and irresponsible statements as if he was not a member of the administration. He is one of the senior members of the government, the President of the Council.

And he gets up and makes wild and irresponsible statements and he ·,dll get picked up by the Evening Telegram probably tomorrow who will give him a big headline and that is why he says these things. There is no more sincerity in it than there is in that microphone there in front of me, Sir, no more sincerity, It is all done for publicity purposes. He is tryir.g to assert his independence.

Why do the editorial writers of the Evening T~legram not say: u~at particular gentleman is President of the Council, a senior member of the Peckford administration?' Why does he not do something about the ~ublic debt ins~ead of letting it reach the horrendous proportions as the i10n. gentleman describes it'? Because, l-lr. Chairman, that hon. gentleman he::; sat on that side of t.~e House for t:1e past several years when the provincial debt in this Province has tripled. :IR. J. CARTER: Joe Smallwood (Inaudible) HR. S. NEARY: Yes. You :Q.Qw, we are t:lld, i·i.r.

Chairman, we are not allowed to talk aLout t,;1e past and we j:.:..3t hear<l the han. big galoot from St. John's East (:·lr. \'1. :-!arshall) tell us it is all i-lr. Smallwood's 2222

August 16, 1979 Tape No. 879 GH-1 MR. NEARY: fault, it is all Mr. Smallwood's fault. We are told to forget the past, step forward with Peckford, forget all about the past. We are not allowed to mention the six or seven years of Tory administration in this Province, but they are allowed to talk about the Smallwood years. P.N HON. MEMBER: Crying about (inaudible) . MR. NEARY: The fact of the matter is, Sir, when Mr. Smallwood was kicked out of office back on June lB, 1972, the total public debt, the total provincial debt in this Province was between $700 and ~BOO million, total direct and indirect - MR. J.

CARTER: He left us (inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, if you take all the commitments and put them together -Mr. Chairman, Joey Smallwood did not make the commitment to set off these two explosions on either side of the Strait of Belle Isle. A..lil HON. MEMBER: Who set up the Linerboard? MR. NEARY: Who nationalized the Linerboard mill, who nationalized it, right on the brink of it being started up by private enterprise, who nationalized it and spent $500 million of taxpayers' money on it? Was that Mr. Smallwood who did that? AN HON. MEL'!BER: (Inaudible). MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, that is sheer nonsense, Sir.

They have been telling us for the last seven or eight years in this House that the Linerboard mill was in the wrong place; it was put in the wrong place, they were telling us. Now, the other day, yesterday, they were telling us it is ideally located for a paper mill. AN HON . MEMBER: (Inaudibl

e) paper mill . MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, it does not make any difference where you put a paper mill in Newfoundland, it is in the right place. 2223

Auquse 16, 1979 Tape No. 879 GH-2 ~1R. tHNDSOR: (Inaudible) . ~ffi . NEARY: The hon. 'Mount Pearl Arena' laughs at that , laughs ae ie . l>hat aboue all the pulp t:hat is nanspo:::ted ac=oss ~~e Atlantic to keep the mills going ovez in England and in Europe? MR. J . CARTE.~: Whae aboue all ehe pulp we have eo l~se~~ to here? ~ffi. NEARY: I£ you :ollo wed, Mr. ~~airman, the logic of hon . gentlemen then steel mills should be built where the iron ore is . We do not see a steel mill down in Labrador. The fact of the maeeer is that the Linerboard mill was ideally locaeed.

It was puc in the ideal position in Newfoundland . 1-\R. J. CARTER: For Labrador wood? M . .'l.. :-lEJ\RY : Yes , for Labrador wood. L~rador wood has been exported , has been taken from Labrad o.r and brought across the Atlaneic to keep the pulp mills in England and in Europe operating. AN HON. :-\E.'iBER: MR. W"..ARY: ~ !ION. H.E~IBER: MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). Beg your pardon? Pulpwood for Linerboard? Yes , and for Linerboard.

The fact of ehe matter is , Sir , that this crowd mismanaged the Linerboard mill, they mismanaged ic and they are afraid eo give us an accouneing ~n this House for the ~cney they squandered on it, for ~~ mistake they made in nationali~ng it, and I did noe wane to bring up Linerboard th~s afternoon but somebody over there reminded ~~ of ic. MR. i1.0RGAN: Tell us about Egret . HR. NEARY: Yes , I can tell the hon. gentleman the latest developmenes - I will tell the hon . gentleman the latest developments about Egret i~ he wants eo hear ~~e.m .

I can t~ll the hon . gentleman thae Egret ~ Bermuda - the~r a£fa~rs are behind handled 2224

.:>.ugu.st: 16, 1979 Tape No. 879 GH- 3 l-l.R. NEARY: by a : irm in 8ermuda well-known throughout the world. Their affairs are being hand~ed by this firm 1.n Bermuda and in St. John's, ~ewfouncllanci, a branch of t:hat: same company is handling the affairs of Mr. frank D. ~toores. A branch of that company . That: is a coincidenc e for you , tha t is really a coincidence . What is the government doing about that: i~ hon. qent:lemen want to know about Labrador Linerboard? 2225 .. ,.

·_r August 16, 1979 Tape 880 IB-1 MR. NEARY: And what are honourable gentlemen doing about the statement that was made to the Corporal of the RCMP that went to San Francisco two weeks ago and took a statement from a salesman from Sterling International , the man who sold a number of shipments of linerboard from the Linerboard Mill out in Stephenville including the one that went to Ghana when I tabled the documentation in this House?

What is the government doing about these statements ( This particular salesman, a ~an by the name of Ingal Shareen, who is a Swede and an honourable man, made a statement that Sterling ~nternational was forced to put $55 a ton on linerboard in this secret account in Bermuda, Egret, for two people here in Newfoundland. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) outside the House. MR. NEARY: Yes, Sir, I have said it outside the House.

I will say it on top of the House, down in the basement, that not only his company but three other companies that he can name were told that this money had to go in this secret account in Bermuda for two gentlemen here in Newfoundlandwhom I will not name now but I can if I want to. AN HON. MEMBER: You have not told us anything new . MR . NEARY: I have not told the hon. ger.tlemen anything new. I see. Well that is new, sir, that came from the lips of the salesman that sold that shipment of linerboard. well what is the government doing about it? I cannot even get answers from the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) to questions that I put on the Order Paper in connection with Labrador Linerboard. And the minister today tried to leave the impression with the House that I have got the Department of Finance in turmoil, under tremendous strain. Oh, they are working night and day trying to get answers to questions. One of the questions on the Order Paper - MR. SPEAKER (BAIRD): Order, please! MR. NEARY: Okay, Sir, if you want to mal~e your announcement. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you hon. member. I t being five o' c lock and according to Standing Order 31 (

g) I can inform the House that I have received notice of three matters for debate at five-thirt y when 2226

August 16, 1979 Tape 880 IB-2 MR. SPEAKER (BAIRD): a motion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the House. Notice given by the hon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. sterling) arising out of a question asked of the han. the Premier and the subject matter is the Homeownership Assistance Programme. Notice given by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) arising out of a question today asked of the hon. President of the Council and subject matter is increase in vandalism, crime and teenage drinking. Notice given by the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr.

Hiscock) arising out of a question asked of the hon. the Premier and the subject matter is Labrador. MR. NEARY: If I may continue, Sir. So, Mr. Speaker, I hope hon. gentlemen , Sir, have not got the face over there to talk about Labrador Linerboard when all these matters are being laid out in this House. None of the charges or allegations that I have made have been denied. They have not been clarified. The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) - one of the questions that I started to say, one of the questions on the Order Paper is, table the contract.

I said to the minister, I asked him orally, I asked him on the Order Paper, table a contract with a company called Schurfeld in Hamburg, Germany that had a contract with Labrador Linerboard to market linerboard in Europe, table the contract. Now, how does that put a strain on the staff down in the Finance Department? All the hon. gentleman has to do is say to somebody, Go out in the files of Labrador Linerbcard and xerox a copy of the contract so I can bring it up and table it in the House. The trouble is, Sir, they do not want to give me the answers. They do not want to provide the answers.

So I have to go through the routine again of who Schurfeld is, what the problem is. Do I have to go outside the House to get the information? Three weeks ago I asked that question, table the contract, and the minister has refused to give it to me. Mr. Speaker, I got sort of sidetracked there onto Labrador Linerboard but I am glad I did because I hope I gave 2227

August 16, 1979 Tape 880 }!R. NEARY: the hon. gentl ·el'!'.an a litt le piece of information that might open up his eyes, that might make him pu~ a little pressure on his colleagues and on the ~!inister of Justice (~!r . Ott.enheimer) to have a public enquiry into the operations of Labrador Linerboard from the time the government nationalized it unt il they closed it down. It would be very worth while . It Is a black mark on our record in this Province and it is SOlllething that is going to have to be .dealt with sooner or later.

And it is more than a coincidence, it is more than just a coincide .nce tha~ this same fi..'"l!l .in Bermuda a branch of this company in 3ermuda should be handling the affairs of Egret and another branch of the sam.e company in St. John's handling the affairs of Mr . ~loore 's company, SS? Holdings Inc orporated. 2228 ..

.>.ugust 16, 1979 Tape 881 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: That is more than a coincidence. ~ hon. friend, if he went to court, I am sure could win a case on that kind of evidence. It may appear to be circumstantial but there is a little rrore to it than that. So the government would be well-advised instead of making snide remarks about Labrador Linerboard if they had a public inquiry into the operation of that mill when the government took it over. Why not? If I am wrong, I am wrong. If the government have nothing to hide why would they not have a judicial inquiry? Wny would they not have it?

We had a judicial inquiry into a couple of television sets - no, one television set. lie are having a commission of inquiry into a leak over in the police department. MR. J. CARTER: And welfare on Bell Island. HR. NEARY: Yes, we have had commissions of inquiry into just about everything that you can name except the biggest scandal in Canadian history - ~~e operation, the mismanagement and the scandal and the corruption involved with Labrador Linerboard. And they sit there day in and day out, week in and week out; they do not answer the charges. Ail! HON. HEl-lBER: They will not resign (inaudible). MR.

NEARY: No, I do not want them to resign. And the Premier tells us, 'We are going to deal with Bob Cole's contract,' t..':1at is $500,000 or so; they are going to deal with Hr. i-lutbeem, the Premier's brother-i~-law, that is $200,000; they are going to deal with all the s mall things. In other words, the present Premier is going to pick and choose ~~e things that he is going to deal with.

He is not going to deal with the big items, he is going to tr] to portray the impression in ~'le Province that he is a man of integrity and honesty and i1e is going to level ·.-1i b. the people, but he is going to pick and choose ~'1e items on •.-1hich he is going to level with t:nem and i1e is going to ignore t.."le big scandals, t.."le giga~tic sca~dals like Labrador Linerboard. aut the rressage is getting through, :-lr. Chairman - t.."le message is filtering t."lrough to the ?eople o~ tnis Province. 2229

August 16, 1979 Tape 881 EC - 2 Anyway, Sir, I started out talking about ~~e present financial position of tl1e Province. And tile han. gentleman in his few remarks mentioned, 'Oh, they only need $16 million rrore tilan tiley are going to borrow,' - a tidy lit tie slush fund. The hon. gentleman can give us no details at all of how tiley are going to spend ~~at Sl6 million, tiley are going to put it away just in case we need it- a little pocket money, $16 million, a tidy little slush fund, Sir. Well, Hr.

Chairman, the fact of tile matter is tilat the people of tilis Province are getting wise to comments and remarks like ~~e ones made by tile President of tile Council (Hr. Harshalll • It is an horrendous debt. And tomorrow his picture will be there and big banner headlines: 'The President of the Council, a member of tile Cabinet, says it is an horrendous debt,' but you will not see an editorial inside saying, 'He happens to be a member of tilat Cabinet and what is he doing about it?' And he was there the six or seven years that this crowd tripled the provincial debt in tilis Province.

And I would not mL•d tile debt tripling if ,.,e had something to show for it, but ,.,e do not have one tl1ing to show for it. That is the shame of it, Sir. MR. STAGG: Why not take a part of his salary? MR. NEARY: No, l1r. Chairman,! cannot stand hypocritical nonsense and statements, I just cannot take it, Sir. And that is what it is. It is tile lowest form of hypocrisy, that is what it is. And I hope no"' that those up over my shoulder who fall into that trap every time will ask tilemselves, Is that man an independent? Is he a private member of the House?

Is he a member of ~~e Opposition or is he a member of ~~e Cabinet? And if he is and he is making statements like tilat, tilen what is he doing about it? On motion, resolution, carried. On motion, enacting clause, carried. ~otion, that the resolution be submitted to a Committee of tile Whole House, carried. On motion, title carried. On motion, Clause l, carried. o!R. C!!AIRHAi<: (Baird) Shall Clause 2 carry? 2230

;.ugust 16, 1979 Tape 881 EC- 3 :-t.~ . ROBERTS: Your Honour, be fore '"'e get into Clause 2 - maybe ! am out of order, so let me go ahead out of order Could ~ie acr-:-ee - I have consulted !rrf colleagues and we will agre ·e on our side r.ot to rise the Commitce.e at 5 : 29.5 ?.11. co do t:."le Late Show if the gove= ent wis!l to go a.~ead as well, you know, in the interests o: giving the Finance Bills consideration . Does that mean that you C.O no·t '"ant to go on with - or we will not go on with t~e Late Show? H:R. ROBERTS: I did :1ot phrase it very '"ell, obviously, Sir .

Ne '"ill waive the Late Show a.'ld go on to 6:00 P.H . with the ?'inance !>usiness, wha:ever the govert'.ment intend to caJ.l . :·1R. :-!A?.SH.'U.L: Thank you, :-1r. Chai=.an . ~lR. Cl-iA.IR!·!k'l: (Bai rd) It has been mutually agreed that we will 'llai ve the Late Show and carry on with the !>usiness . HR. ROBERTS: car-.ry , havL'lg debated it at length. Clause 2 can now On r.otion, Clauses 2 through S, carrieci . On motion, enacting clause:, car::i'ed. A bill, "J>..n Act To At:t.~o rize The aaising Of Hone y By \~ay Of Loan By The Province." On motion, title carried . 2231.

.:>.ugust 16, 1979 :-u~ . CHAIR.'!AN: (~lr. 8ai,rd) Tape No. 882 Order! Sill No . 34. RESOLUTION GH-1 That it is expedient to bring in a ~~ure furthe: to amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957, to provice for the guarantee of the repayment of loans mace to, and the advance of loans to cer t a in Local Authorities . ~1R. CHA~Rt'.AN : Shall the resolution carrJ? The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Chairman, this is the annua~ amendments to this particular Act and it L'lcludes t!le names and the amounts of all municipal. capital works guaranteed bank loans issued during the fiscal year up to :1arch 31, 1979. The total t.'lis year in this amendment is just over $31 million and that compares with just over Sl5 million in 1978 and nearly $24 million in 1977. These are the guaranteed bank loans that are issued to municip~ties to finance capital works such as '"'ater and sewer and roads and so on. Now, these a;nounts in the

schedule there are the maximum amounts that each municipality may use for the approved projects, and they are usually guaranteed for one to three years and , subsequently, the AII!Ounts are converted into long-term debt by the N.~!.F.C., the Newfoundland Hunicipal Finance Corporation . At that t.L"\\e the debt is converted into long-term that is usually of the order of something lLlte t ·.,eney years On motion, resolution, carried. On mot1on, enace1ng clause carried. Motion, that the resolution be submitted. to a Committee of the lvnole House, carried. On motion, clause l, carried.

On motion , enacting clause, carried . A bill, "An Ac:: To Amend The Local Aud:ority Gua:-antee Act, 1957." On moc~on, ticle carried. 2232

Au9ust 16, 1979 Tape No . 882 G:!-2 Hotion 5. Or should we call :~otion 1, the Tobacco and GasolL~e and get those over and get into the ·others . MR. ROBERTS : learned friend opposite - Selle Isle . HR. ROBERTS: (11r. Baird) ( Inaud~le ) I can tell my The hon. member :or the Strait of - Mr. Chairnan, that it: is our intent :ion to debate the Insurance Tax , we have a few things ;.-e wish to say about that, and we have a few more things •,;e wish to say about the Advertising '!'ax . Now I notice Z.!otion 3 and Motion 5, I think, really should be combined in one .

I t!link they ·..:ere put down ·,;hen the gove.rrunent ·,;ere thinking of a separate bill. Naybe what we could do is consider the Tobacco and Gasoline ones because I think other tha.'l my friend from Torngat c:1r . l'larren) who wishes to say a word on the Gasoline, we really have very l it: 'r.le we wish to say and t:hen perhaps we could do the Insurance one and leave the ~ledia one til after that . ~. HARSHALL : Tobacco Tax . M.~. CHAIR.!-IAN: ~1R . ROBERTS: we take it. I call then motion 1. That is tax, the Order!

Bill No. 37 . (Inaudible) ~epend on what order RESOLUTION That is expe aie nt to bring in a measure to a.mena The Tobacco Tax Act, 1978. On motion, resolution carried . On motion, enacting clause carried. '1otion , that the resolution be submitted t:o a Committee. of the (·Toole House in rela;:;,ion co a measure ras~ec1:.ing t~e Tobacco Tax, carried. On mo~ion, clauses l and 2, carried . On motion, enacting clause , carried . 2233 .,

I' August 16, 1979 Tax Act, 1978". MR. CFAIRMAN: (Mr. Baird) Tape No. 882 GH-3 A bill, "An Act ':i'o Amend The Tobacco On motion, title carried. Bill No. 44. RESOLUTION: That it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Gasoline Tax Act, 1978 . 2234

August 16, 1979 Tape 883 IB-1 MR. CHAIRMAN (BAIRD) : Shall the resolution carry? The han. Minister of Finance. =D~R~-~C~O~LL~I=N=S~=~-- Mr. Chairman, I understand one of the han. members opposite wishes to comment on this and possibly the best way of handling it would be really to let him make his comments and then if there is a question that needs to be answered I would certainly attempt to do so. But just very briefly, up to now airplane gasoline or gasoline used in the aircraft for commercial purposes has not been taxed in this Province.

Now1 in actual fact 7 gasoline used in aircraft of a private nature has been taxable. I do not think in all instances that the tax was being collected. I think that this was, shall we say, a technical problem but that is not now so . This technical problem has been solved and private aircraft are now being taxed under the Retail Sales Tax Act at 11 per cent. But collii!lercial aircraft were not taxed_, they were excluded. Now1 this amendment to the Gasoline Tax Act will bring these into a taxable position.

But the amount of tax that is levied is less than the amount that is levied on other forms of transportation under the Gasoline Tax Act.

Section 3 (

l) indicates there what that tax is and it is equivalent actually to twenty-five cents a gallon. We are now, of course, in the metric era so this is expressed in terms of litres, six cents a litre. That is the equivalent of twenty-five cents a gallon. That is the amount of tax one pays in automobiles and so on. Now7 under this amendment in

Section 2.commercial aircraft are taxed at a different rate. They are taxed at the equivalent of three cents a gallon or as it is stated, seven- tenths of a cent per litre. However, this is not applied to Trans- Atlantic flights. This is in order not to in any way interfer with the progress of aviation services which are very beneficial to the Province at Gander and to some extent at Goose Bay and possibly at some time to the airport here in St. John's.if that gets international status. So those are excluded from it by the terms of this Act. 2235

August 16, 1979 Tape 883 IB- 2 DR. COLLINS: Also,this Act in no ~~Y relieves private aircraft from the full brunt of the tax that is now in place, that is ll per cent . The private aircraft will still be assessed at ll per cent, commercial aircraft at three cents a gallon and the Trans-Atlantic flights not subject to the tax . MR. CB.. ... IRMAN (BAIRD) : The hon. member for Torngat !-!ounuins . HR. WARREN: Mr. Chai:anan, earlier the J?res'id _ent of the Privy Council said that this governmel'lt was worried about the d~bt of the Province .

They go ahead and bring in a three cent per gallon increase on aviation gas . They may be worried about the debt ~f the Province, ~~- Chai~4n, but they are also forgettL~g people in sections of this Province whose only means of moving, the only way to get to some sect ions of this Province,is by aircraft. They do not have roads so t:hey cannot get aboard a car and drive there. You ca.nnot get aboard a boat and go there only in three or four months during the year . 2236

August 16, 1979 Tape 884 SD - l :•lR. G. WARREN: The Labrador Airways, the regional operation in Goose Bay that services all of Labrador, this three cents per gallon will mean an extra $22,000 to that company, an extra $22,000 to that company. And what is going to happen if that company passes ~~at along to ~1e consumer? Now, is ~~is government worried? Is that where ~~e worry comes in? $22,000 that - there are people in Labrador, there are people on Fogo Island who have to depend on aircraft, people on St.

Brendan's Island, Harbour ueep, many more places throughout :.lewfoundland where pecple have to rely on aircraft and here we get three cents a gallon placed on. Already this government is subsidizing Labrador Airways to the tune of $90,000. Because there is not enough revenue to keep this aircraft operation in existence - ~~ey can not survive on the amount of money that they collect from the passengers - already ~s government is subsidizing them $90,000, so in fact, '"'hat they are doing is putting another $20,000 on ~~eir own subsidy and ~~ey are worried? Mr.

Chairman, I believe that this government should, immediately, if not abolish L~is altogether, abolish this bill corr~letely, the least thing they can do, really, if they bring tilis bill in is to say, okay, the areas of the Province that have to solely rely on air transportation will not be affected. That is a consideration this government should take. Now the areas of the Province that have to solely rely on air transportation should not be affected. It is a very serious consideration that this government should give.

There are sections of Labrador, sections of Bonavista Bay, Harbour Deep, sections around this Province where the only way that a resident can move back and for~'l is by aircraft. Mr. Chairman, I also W1derstand ~~at this L~ree cents per gallon is going to cost ~astern Provincial Airways in the vicinity of $200,000, and L~is government say ~;ey are worried? I can not stress how important it is. In order to move around in L1a remote areas of ~~e Province it has to be by aircraft, anC Oy putting 2237 '

.~Ug'«St. 16, 1979 Tape 884 SD - 2 :·tR. G. N.~•t:~EN : three cent:s per gallon on ;:.'1e companies t.'lat operat:e aircraft in chis Province we are definitely putting it onto t.'le consu!ner because no company is going to ahsor~ the loss, it is going to be passed along · to the consumer . It was only a few days ago t.l)_at I r.entione'd about t:le cost of al!'.bulance service from :'la.i:"l to St . John • s. How muc.'l more is it going to cost? :aecause EPA is going to p uc up t:heir races, Labrado r Airways is going ::o put up t.'leir rates and still t.'le ocnswne!"s will have to pay it:. )tr .

Chairllian, it is a rieiculous t.ax, it: is a taX that should ~.ot be L,stit.ut:ed at: this time . It definitely should be de ferred and definitely snould ~e seriously looked at by this gover:1;nent. SONE HON. :·S.:<$ERS : Hear, hear! ~R . J . COLLI:.IS: Mr. C:<1ai.:mar . . l·m . CH.P.I?.N;.:.;: (aaird) The hon. the M.ir.ister of Finance. ::>R. J . COLLINS : sh¢t.:ld be mace, 1 supPQse, in rebuttal or at leas t in cotniOOnt on tne hon . n~emi:>er • s r~-narks . Fi!"stly, I believe ;;e wfourl<lland and Lahracor is currently the only provi :1ce "hich does :'\Ot: levy an aviation tax.

So t:.nis is :'\Ot something ne•" or unique . As a ::~at:ter of fact, it is for us possibly but certainly not in the c~,adian cohtext. The other :;:oint is tha;: U? to no•.v aircraft travel really hac a special cea l. :to 2238 ' •·

August 16, 1979 Tape 885 IB-1 DR. COLLINS: other form of transportation whereby petrol or gasoline was required was free of some sort of fuel tax. So,in a way,up to now the aircraft travel was especially exempt and we are now merely correcting this and we are not real