Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 42 (34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-42

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Second Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 38 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVlll No. 42 - 1:30 p.m., TUESDAY, OCTOBER 3, 1989. ISSN 0542 -5 492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

NAME ALCO CK, Reg ANGUS, John AS HTON, Steve BURRELL, Parker CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CHARLES, Gwen CHEEMA, Guizar CHORNOP YSKI, Wi lliam CONNERY, Edward, Hon. COWAN, Jay CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DERKACH, Leona rd, Hon. DOER, Gary DOW NEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DRIEDGER, Herold L. DUC HARME, Gerald, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Laurie E. EVANS, Leonard S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. GAU DRY, Neil GILLES HAMMER, Harold GRAY, Avis HAMMOND, Gerrie, Hon. HARAPI AK, Harry HAR PER, Elijah HELW ER, Edward R. HEMPHILL, Maureen KOZAK, Richard J.

LAMOURE UX, Kevin M. MAL OWAY, Jim MANDRAKE, Ed MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. McCRAE, James, Hon. MINENKO, Mark MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation CONSTITUENCY Osborne St. Norbert Th ompson Swan River Fort Rouge River Heights Selkirk Kildonan Burrows Portage la Prairie Churchill Ste. Rose du Lac Roblin-Russell Concordia Arthur Emerson Niakwa Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Fort Garry Brandon East Tuxedo Virden St.

Boniface Minnedosa Ellice Kirkfield Park Th e Pas Rupertsland Gimli Logan Transcona lnkster Elmwood Assiniboia Morris Brandon West Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte, Hon. Gladstone ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Verendrye PATTERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PL OHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gilles Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI , Bill Interlake WASYLYCIA-LE IS, Judy St.

Johns YEO, Iva Sturgeon Creek PARTY LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP PC LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL NDP PC PC LIBERAL PC LIBERAL PC NDP NDP PC NDP LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL PC PC LIBERAL PC PC PC PC PC LIBERAL PC NDP PC PC LIBERAL LIBERAL NDP LIBERAL NDP NDP LIBERAL

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, October 3, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Chairman of Committees): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan River (Mr. Burrell), that the report of the committee be received. - MOTION presented and carried. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Housing): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the Report on the Administration of the Rent Regulation Program for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1989. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Spe aker, I wou ld like to table the Supp lementar y Estimates Information for the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba and the Report of the Department of Health for the fiscal year '87-88. *

(1335) Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Lotteries Foundation 1988-89. Ill Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Co-operative, II' Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I wou ld like to table the Recom mendation of the Lieutenant-Governor on Bill No. 46, The Workers Compensation Amendment Act. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Mental Health Care Survey Recommendations Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard).

The Health Minister has declared this week Mental Illness Awareness Week, and we suppor t this declaration because we believe that all of us need to increase our understanding of mental illness. This Government has a responsibility not only to understand and increase its awareness but to provide adequate services and treatment for the mentally ill. 1521 Mr.

Speak er, earlier this year Manitoba Health Organizations conducted a survey of facilities, agencies and organizations that provide mental health services in Manitoba, and the 67 respondents to the su rvey painted a very gloomy picture of our mental health care system. The greatest concerns included the shortage of psy chiatrists and other mental health profess ionals, inadequate training, shortage of beds, almost non existent health services for the elderly.

My question for the Minister is: has he received the rec ommendations from the Manit oba Health Organizations that were to result from this survey which was completed in February, and if so, which of them has he acted upon, or which ones does he plan to act upon in order to improve our mental health services in Manitoba? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I cannot answer for my honourable friend whether we have received the report as indicated, but I am certainly pleased that my honourable friend is, on behalf of the Official Opposition, taking some interest in the mental health system, an interest which I have shared as Opposition Critic and as Minister of Health for some four years. Mr. Speaker, let me indicate to my honourable friend a mu ltipr onged appr oach that we have taken as Government in terms of mental health service delivery.

First of all, one of the very first reorganizations within the Department of Health occurred in the Mental Health Division. An Honourable Member: Hear, hear! Mr. Orchard: We reorganized four separate streams of funding between the department, the Manitoba Health Services Commission, in four different areas of specific funding bringing them together under two executive directors: one responsible for program, one responsible for policy creation under the direction of an Assistant Deputy Minister of Mental Health. That is the first step. Mr.

Speaker, in reorgani zing the Department of Health, we were able to find almost $1 million of funding to which we committed to six community-based mental health delivery projects throughout the City of Winnipeg and the Province of Manitoba. Four of those six are now in place and staffed as anticipated, and they range from suicide crisis intervention to psychogeriatric care, to enhancement of multidiscipli nary team approach. Mr.

Speaker, in addition to tha t, in terms of mental health service delivery, we have enhanced the salaries for psych iatrists in the province of Manitoba by $10,000 to aid and abet in the recruitment of psy chiatrists. In addition to that, we have undertaken a number of co mmun ity-b ased initia tiv es in the Pr ovince of Man itoba- $500, 000 ha s been all ocated to the Salvation Army to provide an intermediate residential

Tuesday, October 3, 1989 facil ity for tho se who are in need of psych iatric help on a residential basis in the City of Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, I look forward to further elaborating on the initiatives of this Government in mental health. *

(1340) Staff Protection Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker , it is not the reor g aniz ation of the department that is required here. Wha t is required is field staff who can deliver the care that is required. One of the major issues raised in this report by 85 percent of the respondents was tha t they were encountering difficulties in protecting the safety of their staff and other patients.

Now, can the Minister tell us wha t initiatives he has put into place to protect nursing staff, to protect medical staff, to protect the other patients, within the mental health system delivery in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, lest my honourable friend, the Leader of the Official Opposition, leave the impression that the issue she just raised is in the mental health system, in other words, the formal mental health institutions, I believe if she were properly informed, she wou ld be aware that is an issue that has been raised by the personal care homes of the Province of Manitoba in terms of dealing with those unfortunate patients of the personal care home system who suffer from Alzhei mer's Disease in some cases and from disorientation and deterioration of mental condition.

From time to time those patients are unexpectedly violent and have from time to time assaulted nurses and other staff in th ose facilities. Mr. Speaker, a number of discussions have taken place with the Manitoba Health Services Commission and the personal care home administration staff to undertake appropriate measures which will allow staff to better cope with tho se patients suf fering from Alzh eimer's as long- term residents of the personal care homes. Mr. Speaker, let me tell my honourable friend that that is- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Facility Upgrading Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, it is quite obvious from the Minister's answer that he has not read this analysis on the survey of Mental Health Care Services in the Province of Manitoba. Some of the respondents in this area said their facilities are not designed for the treatment of the mentally ill. We are talking about small facilities with limited resources and open wards. One actually went on to say with regard to patients with drugs is commonplace and, "They end up in our personal care home as zom bies." Mr.

Speaker, does the Minister have any plan at all to upgr ade the facilities in rural and northern areas so that mentally-ill patients can receive the kind of care they are entitled to and are not overmedicated, because there is no other way to treat them? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, that is exactly the nub of the issue that is being discussed between the commission and the personal care home administrators and staff.

Wha t my honour able friend, I believe, in the Liberal Party is recommending is a segregation of those individuals within personal care homes who suffer from mental illness or Alzheimer's. That has other implications in terms of hu man rights and other issues that are being discussed to assure that we do not impact upon the human rights of th ose individuals in personal care homes who, unfortunately, suffer from mental health problems or Alzhei mer's. If my honourable friend is saying that the Liberal Party policy is segregation of those individuals, please speak up. Federal Immigration Office Relocation Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, this is a new question to the Deputy Premier (Mr. Cummings). Our media has been fil led with the separatist mentality of many people who live in the Province of Quebec, and we find that deeply regrettable. We think all Members feel that way. However, no such desire has been expressed by Manitobans, at least to our knowledge. However, based on the way we are treated by the federal Government, it would appear that we had al ready separated from Canada. I only have to look at CF -18 and VIA Rail and National Defence.

This morning we learn that the federal Immigration Office in Winnipeg may be in jeopardy. We have con flicting reports. Sou rces in Ottawa ha ve indicated they will be located in Edmonton. Officials here in Winnip eg have assured us that there may not be such a move, and amidst all the speculation the federal Minister and her Manitoba colleagues have said • absolutely nothing. � Has the Deputy Premier been able to substantiate whether or not the immigration office in this city for the region will be scaled down? Hon. Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): Mr.

Speaker, this is not a situation where we are going to allow the federal Government to, through rumours, stick their finger in our eye and not elicit a reaction from this Go vernment. We are in cont act with the federal authorit ies to ascertain whether or not there is any validity to this rumour that has surfaced in the media, and also to make sure that once again, as we have done many times, to reiterate, restate, in the strongest possible terms, that we are not going to see Manitoba suf fer at th e expens e of moving jobs into other jurisdictions whether it is western Canada or anywhere else. * (1345) 1522

Tuesday, October 3, 1989 Mrs. Carstairli: Mr. Speaker, can the Deputy Premier tell the House if the Premier (Mr. Filmon) has been in touch with the federal Immigration Minister and has he been able to get a clear answer from a federal Tory Minister, something which would be a unique occasion. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Sp eaker, I can assure the Legislature and the public that we, through the Premier (Mr. Filmon), are contacting the Prime Minister to express in the strongest possible terms our concern about this rumour and asking for a verification of its truth or its inaccu racy.

Federal Operations Winnipeg Facilities Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, this is a final suppl ementary to the Deputy Premier. This is the third report in the past week that we have had about federal operations being dismantled in this province, Prairie Militia, VIA Rail and now � Immigration, and nobody in the federal Government , has denied any of these reports.

Will the Fi rst Minister, through the Deputy Premier today, obtain from his federal cousins their long-range projections for federal operations in Manitoba, or have they already decided that Manitoba is indeed a separate country? An Honourable Member: I think so. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Deputy Premier (Mr. Cummings). Hon. Glen Cummings (Deputy Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition wants to make overt references to separation, she can go ahead. An Honourable Member: Shame on you, Sharon. Mr.

Cummings: The issue here is a matter of fairness, fairness to this province, fairness to the people of western Canada, and we do not need to apologize for � the actions that were taken. Churchill River Dam Environmental Impact Study Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Well, Mr. Speaker, the comments of the Minister have been enlightening. I wonder if the Minister could indicate whether he is aware of the building of a dam on the Chur ch ill River. We have learned that the Saskatchewan Government is constructing a new dam on the Chur chill River some 40 kilometres from the Manitoba border.

This dam will regulate water flows into both Reindeer Lake and Churchill River , will affect the comm unitie s of Pukatawagan and Brochet, will affect the lives of thousands of people in those communities, will affect the quality of water in those communities, will affect the livelihood of th ose people through their fishing and trapping activities. Can the Minister of the Environment tell Manitobans and tell the people of Pukatawagan whether he has asked the Saskatchewan Power Corporation to conduct environmental impact studies on the Chur ch ill River and the waterways that are affected by this dam?

Or has he in fact instructed anyone in his department to conduct environmental impact studies on this project? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, this is not a problem that has just cropp ed up in the last couple of days as the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) might wish to indicate. We have been aware of the situation, and we have not received information that we are able to deal with and what some of the impacts may be; but that does not mean that we are not concerned and watch ing it. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, what bafflegab. The waterways of Manitoba are being affected immediately.

The dam is being constructed. There is no environmental impact assess ment. In fact, the Min ister knows tha t the Saskatchewan Government does not have a licence to regulate Manitoba waters. Licensing Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): I have a question to the Min ister of Environme nt. Wi ll the Min ister of Environment ensur e tha t Saska tche wan Power Corporation has a licence to regulate water in Manitoba before this project is allowed to proceed? Will he ensure that to protect the people of Manitoba? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr.

Speaker, once again the issue for Manitoba is the quality and quant ity of the waters tha t come down our waterways. If the Member wishes to imply that Manitoba can cond uct environmental stud ies wi thin the boundaries of Saskatchewan, if the Member is asking for that, then he does not realize the reality of dealing with upstream problems. *

(1350) Legal Intervention Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, this Minister and this Government too soon forget Rafferty-Alameda. This is what is happen ing right now in northern Manitoba, and he is sitting on his duf f. Mr. Speaker, will he follow up, will the Minister of the Environment follow up on a th reat that was implied in the letter that was addressed to me from the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns)- perhaps the Acting Minister of Natural Resou rces (Mr. Penner) can answer this, but I direct it to the Minister of the Environment (Mr.

Cummin gs)-t hat the provi ncial Government wi ll consider using the federal Court of Canada, if necessary, to arrive at a fair solution to this problem? Will the Minister indicate whether he is prepared to take this issue to court as he should have done in Rafferty-Al ameda to protect the people in Brochet and the community of Pukatawagan and our waterways in Manitoba? Will he do that? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, the Member again through oblique references 1523

Tuesday, October 3, 1989 to other projects wants to reference wha t is a different situation. We are seeing a dam that is being rebuilt, and we are about to make sure that we are not going to allow our options to expire without making sure that what happens on this side of the border is properly taken care of. Mr. Sto rie: Mr. Speaker , not only is the federal Government sticking its finger in this Minister's eye and this Government's eye, and every person in Manitoba, the Saskatchewan Government is now kicking sand in this Minister's face and he will not stand up.

The question was, will the Minister today join with the people of Pukatawagan, who are launchin g an action in the Saska tche wan court, an injunction to stop this construction? Will he join with tho se people and stop this for _the people of Manitoba? Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, I gave the Member the answer regarding taking care of the interests of water quality and quantity on this side of the border. Churchill River Dam Environmental Impact Study Mr.

Herold Driedger (Niakwa): Well, having heard the comments from the Minister to the previous questions, I think it is quite clear that we have here a situation where the provincial Government seems to want to simply take the stand of wait and see what happens and maybe we will take a stand later on.

Has he done anything at all with respect to writing to the federal Minister to ask for a complete environmental impact asses sment, because he re we ha ve a river basin affecting Manitoba where we have a situation that is happ ening in another pro vi nce tha t is coming downstream into Manitoba and affecting our province and our people? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker , the Rafferty-A lameda situa tion inc lude d federal funding and transboundary in th ree different boundaries.

We have since seen the Premiers of the th ree western provi nces sign an accord tha t transboundary agreements can be entered into between the provinces. The same issue that holds true in any of these is where we can bring in the federal jurisdiction; that is the ability that we have to refer these problems to the federal authorities. Very often that is through navigable waters and fisheries and, Mr. Speaker, we are not giving up any of our options. *

(1355) Licensing Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): It is interesting to see th at the only time that we start looking at the federal option is when there are federal monies involved but, Mr. Speaker, the impact affects our border, crosses our border. Wha t has he done with respect to the fact that the water impacting in Manitoba, crossing the bord er, affecting people's liv es, working without a licence- this has been on the books now for close to seven years-a nd wha t has he now done that is going to do something that will bring· the people of Manitoba's concerns back to the bargaining table? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Well, Mr. Speaker, I think you have just received confirmation from an independent source that this problem did not arise yesterday. An Honourable Member: I do not know about the independent part, Glen. Mr. Cummings: He did not say a substantial source. Mr. Speaker, the issue for Manitoba is to make sure that we have the information and the ability to protect the quality and the quantity of water that we receive.

That is the approach that my department has taken consistently, and that is the approach that we will continue to take to be sure that our relationship with our neighbours is such that they know that Manitoba has a responsibility that it is prepared to deal with, and something that is very interesting in terms of Manitoba's relationship vis-a-vis transboundary waters is that we are virtually downstream from everyone, whether it is the sout h, east , or the west .

We are particula rly concerned about continuing to develop an ability to deal with the quality and quantity issues as they reflected through any of the projects tha t affect transboundary waters coming into this province. Water Protection Plan Initiatives Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): This is to the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Cummings) then. Wh at kind of polic ies and resources has he now put into place to allow the people of Manitoba clearly to see what is being done by this Government to protect their water suppl ies?

We are downstream as he referenced from many places: Shoal Lake, Rafferty-Alameda, the Souris River, the Saskatchewan River, and so on. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Speaker, first of all, we have said that we are prepared to take whatever actions we have to do, and that has been demonstrated both at Shoal and Rafferty. The ability to do that is included in whether or not you have the ability to demonstrate the effects of the changes in the water regime. That is how we will guarantee our ability to deal with any effects of projects that are upstream from us ..

Forks Renewal Corporation Leasing Arrangements Mr. James Carr (F ort Rou ge) : Mr. Speak er, my question is for the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme). The chai rperson of the Forks Development Corporation has refused to make public certain leasing agreements between the corporation and other tenants in the Forks market. He also says, incredibly, that the Forks is a priv!lte ·corporation. Mr. Speaker, there is no corporation in this province which is more public 1524

Tuesday, October 3, 1989 than the Forks with $20 million being advanced by taxpayers from Canada, Manitoba and Winnipeg. Now the chai rperson has used this mistaken impression to justify a tight -li pped policy and approach to releasing certain public information. My question is very simple, does the Min ister agree with the chai rperson that the Forks is a private corporation? If not, has he contacted him to make sure that this misconception is put to rest? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Yes, Mr.

Speaker, first of all, I would like to invite all my colleagues to the opening of the Forks market on October 5, twelve noon. In answer to the question from the Member, I think it is important to understand that any considera tions provided in the leasing arrangements that are done are no way any different than any other commerical operation that is held throughout the city. Now, the guidelines are used, the lease arrangements are between the people renting and the Forks Corporation. So there is nothing out of the ordinary in the way they are leasing out these t arrangements for the Forks for the market site. *

(1400) Documentation Request Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Obviously it does not matter if the Forks Corporation is public or private, because he does not understand the difference. The difference is that taxpayers' dollars are at the centre of these leasing arrangements. The question is very simple: will the Minister make public these leasing arrangements between the Forks Corporation, or will he not? How can he justify this policy given- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Carr: The question is posed, Mr. Speaker. Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): First of all, I guess I am to be lectured by the Member on leasing arrangements. I do not know how many leasing arrangements this individual has ever been � involved in. However, I would like to maybe mention • that right at the present time, the opening, 60 percent of the available permanent space will be leased and we will have over 23 permanent food merchants on display when the Forks market opens on Thursday. Mr. Carr: The Minister likes to answer questions, yes or no, Mr. Speaker, and I will give him a terrific chance.

Will he make public the leasing arrangements between the Forks Corporation and tenants in the market? Mr. Ducharme: Mr. Speaker, this is to the individual who likes to present questions, yes or no. I will give him the answer that we are a third partner in this particular venture and he has to remember that the Forks project itself is to be an independent body and not be affected by political interference that has been suggested by the Member across the way. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, order. Order, please. 1525 Wildlife Management Areas Land Leasing Policy Mr.

Bill Uruski {Interlake): My question is to the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay). Last Thu rsday during discussion of his Estimates on the emergency leasing of agricultural land from the Marshy Point Wildlife Management Area, which was next to the East Meadows Goose Sanctuary, the Minister indicated, "This particular case in 1988, authorization was given to Crown Lands to lease it. No application was received, but late in the year Natural Resources requested us to bill. We billed and we were paid." Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture indicated that his department was given the authorization to lease this land and there was no dual leasing authority. However, shortly thereafter the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) got up and said, "In this last year there were a number of wildl ife management areas, half a dozen or so, that were not included in the list." One of those areas was Marshy Point. I ask the Minister of Agricu lture, who was telling the truth in the case of the leasing of land in Marshy Point? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr.

Speaker, as I told the Member in Estimates, the wildl ife management areas are under the jurisdiction of Natural Resources. In cases of emergency like in 1988 and 1989 where pasture is needed, Natural Resources releases those lands to Agriculture for Crown Lands to distribute those lands on a first-come, first-served basis. Mr. Uruski: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister explain then why these lands were leased th ree weeks before the lands were advertised publ icly? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, I would like the Member to listen to the answer to the previous question.

I will repeat it to him so he understands it more fully this time. This might be the fifth time I have given the same answer. We can only allocate lands on which we have authorization from Natural Resources. How can we allo cate lands th ree wee ks before we ha ve author ization? Very clearly , we did not ha ve authorization for this- Mr. Uruski: Mr. Speaker, that is precisely the question. I also want to know from the Minister how these lands were leased in 1989 when an undertaken was given by the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) that these lands would only be leased in 1988. Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Speaker, the Member is really asking questions of the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) and the Natural Resources Department has made some arrangements tha t-w e did not have the authorization from Natural Resources to lease that land and we cannot lease lands we do not have authorization for. That is the jurisdiction under which Crown Land operates, clearly and simply on a first-come, first-served basis.

Tuesday, October 3, 1989 · Communica tor Positions Civil Service Applicants Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): My question is for the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission (Mrs. Hammond). ***** Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for the Interlake, on a point of order. Mr. Bill Uruski (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Agricultur e (Mr. Findlay) just said that he did not have authorization to lease, and in Hansard, and I quoted before and I will quote to him again, "In this particular case in 1988, authorization was given to Crown Lands to lease it." Mr. Speaker- Mr.

Spea ker: Order, pl ease; order , ple ase. The Honourable Member is quite aware that a dispute over the facts is not a point of order. ***** Ms. Gray: My question is for the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission (Mr s. Hammond). Yesterday the Premier (Mr. Filmon) did not have his facts straight when he said that Government can hir e on term and that civil servants would not be interested in term communicator positions anyway.

Surely the Premier knows that for senior positions where civil servants would like advancement that once a successful ca ndi date is chos en, if gi ven the opportu nity, secondment to those positions are common. This Go vern ment 's actions reek of bl atant abus e of ministerial powers. My question is: were the nine communicator positions open to competition for civil servants? Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission): Mr. Speaker, the Civil Service positions that the Member is referring to, I believe some were placed on term for various reasons.

I wish to indicate that the grievance that was presented by the MGEA will be dealt with and that we will be offering and looking for suggestions from the Civil Service Commission on how to look at these various positions and the reasons that they were hired in them. Civil Service Commi.ssion Hiring Practices Investigation Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Mr. Speaker, obviously the answer to the question is no, they were not open to civil servants. The Civil Service Commission has the mandate to ensure that the spirit and intent of the Act is maintained.

Will the Minister indicate today if she will have the commission investigate this abuse of ministerial powers? •

(1410) Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission): Mr. Speaker, there has not been any abuse of ministerial powers as far as these positions are concerned. The MGEA has filed a policy grievance. They will be reviewing these positions. They will be reviewing the practice. We will await their findings and their recommendations. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Ell ice, with her final supplementary question. Ms. Gray: Mr.

Speaker, can this Minister justify the Premier's comments about a partnership with the Civil Service when she is not even prepared to assume leadership of the Civil Service Commission and clear the air and launch an investigation? Wha t do you think you are there for as Minister? Mrs. Hammond: Mr. Speaker, I will repeat it for the Member, that a grievance hearing has been scheduled. Now if the Member does not ch oose to hear the answer that is her business. A grievance hearing has been scheduled with the MGEA in accordance with the collective agreement.

It will be held by the Assistant Deputy Minister, Labour Relations Division, October 20, 1989. The Civil Service Commission will be reviewing each and every allegation contained within the pol icy grievance. It is important to note that the union is not seeking redress to any past violations but is looking for solutions for the future, and we welcome their findings. Brick Warehouse Charges Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Sp eaker, my question is to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Connery).

For the past 16 months the Government has refused to press charges against Brick Warehouse Corporation of Alberta for failing to register their firm under The Corporations Act and The Business Names Registration Act. Would the Minister tell this House why he has ignored the advice of his Deputy Minister, and would he press cha rges against this renegade firm? Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Well, Mr. Speaker, once again we see misinformation put on the record, that I am not going on the advice of my Deputy Minister.

We have been in close contact and communication continuously on the Brick affair. We on this side of the House, and I hope all Members of this Legislature, recognize the problem that Brick's Fine Furniture is having. We have had communication with the federal Minister on an ongoing basis. We are trying to resolve the issue on behalf of the Brick's Fine Furniture because we sympathize with them. Mr. Speaker, I have not for one minute ignored the advice of my deputy .. We are in concert as to what we were doing. We are in contact with the Attor ney General's office to find out what direction we can take legally.

We will do everything within our power to resolve the issue because we h_ave a deep concern for the issue involving Brick's Fine Furniture. 1526

• Tuesday, October 3, 1989 Brick Warehouse Fines Levied Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister, is the Minister not aware that failing to register under the Act is subject to a fine under

Section 187(5) for each day that the firm is not registered, and that the fine would now amount to over $25, 700.00? That is not to mention tha t every director and every representative of that company would also be liable for the same amount of a fine. Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, we are very aware of the provisions of the Acts and the statutes which fall under our jurisdiction as a Government.

What the Honourable Member has never understood is that his sugg ested solutions to the problems have not been seen by those who are in a position to say so, have not been seen to be useful in the circums tances. Mr. Maloway: The Minister has once again evaded the question. Brick Warehouse Consumer Bulletin Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): The final supp lementary is to the Minister of Consumer and Corpo rate Affairs (Mr. Connery) this time. Is the Minister aware that under the Act,

Section 197(1), the Brick Warehouse Limited cannot legally sue customers in Manitoba who do not fulfill contracts with the firm. Has he issued a bulletin to the public detailing this fact? Hon. Edward Connery (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, we have issued no bulletins to that fact. Canadian Constitution Notwithstanding Clause Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): My question is to the Min ister responsible for Constitutional Affai rs (Mr. Mccrae). On the 19th of December, the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) of this province withd rew the Meech Lake Resolution from this House because of his opposition to the use of the notwithsta nding claus e of the Constitution by the Premier of Quebec. My quest ion to the Min ister is: what is his Go vernment's position vis -a-vis use of the notwithstanding clause to the Canadian Constitution? Hon. James Mccrae (Minister responsible for Constitutional Affairs): The Honourable Member has served with me and his Leader and others over many weeks and months and over many hours, preparing a report for the Premier regarding the Meech Lake Accord.

That report will be coming out soon. The Honour able Mem ber is aware, as I am, of the discussions that have been held amongst members of the committee of the task force headed by Professor Fox-Decent. I think the Honourable Member would be wise to respect that confidentiality of our discussions and not get off into other tangents which are related to the discussions that we have been having. Mr. Carr: Mr.

Speaker, the notwithstanding clause of the Canadian Constitution is unrelated to the Meech Lake Accord and unrelated to the work of the Meech Lake Task Force, and it is not good enough for him to run around in circles in this quest. Wha t is the position of the Government of Manitoba, in its own use or commitment not to use the notwiths tanding clause of the Constitution for the life of his Government? Will he make a commitment today that clause will not be used for the life of this Progressive Conservative Government? Mr.

Mccrae: The issue raised by the Honourable Member is in the minds of a number of people who are discussi ng constitutional matter s , but in my particular case, I prefer at this time to keep working on the remaining da ys of the work of the task force to work with the Honourable Member and his Leader and the other members on the task force. The Honourable Member for St. Ja mes (Mr. Edwards) obviously did not make it on the list for Question Period today, so we hear from him from his seat. We hear from him anytime, anyplace, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Carr: Mr.

Speaker, on the 19th of December, this Minister's Premier, the Premier of the Province of Manitoba, told us all that the reason he objected to the Meech Lake Accord was the use of the notwiths tanding clause by the Premier of Quebec. Wha t is the position of this Government on the notwithstanding clause if the Premier felt so strongly about it on the 19th of December he was prepared to withd raw the resolution from this House? Mr. Mccrae: The Honourable Member knows full well that in constitutional discussions the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is the spokesman for the Province of Manitoba.

It does not really suit the Honourable Member's profile in this House to use this place when the Premier's voice cannot be heard in this place on a day like this, to raise questions like this. I suggest that this subject matter very much has something to do with discussions about the Meech Lake Accord. I really have tried to respect the confidentiality of discussions in the Meech Lake Task Force, and I would suggest the Honourable Member and his Leader do the same thing. Omand's Creek Development Environmental Impact Study Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): The Minis ter of Environment (Mr.

Cummings) has today clearly indicated that he is unwilling to take meaningful action with regard to the Chur ch ill River and action is being taken by Saskatchewan. He did the same with the Rafferty Alameda and Saskatchewan, and now we see looming very near a development on Omand's Creek right here in the City of Wi nnipeg which will desecrate this natural waterway.- (interjection)- That is right, destroy and 1527

Tuesday, October 3, 1989 ··,desecrate; and the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) laughs. They bring in a Bill on endangered species and ecolo gical reserves, and they do not care ab.out natural waterways, Mr. Speaker. I ask this Minister has he notified the developer and the City of Winnipeg that he has the authority as Minister of the Environment for the Province of Manitoba to require a permit to be issued for this development and that he will require full studies be done before such a development takes place and a permit issued? Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Wha t an unmitigated collection of thoughts that Member just put forward. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Cummings: Perhaps I should simply refer to them as an unrelated group of thoug hts, Mr. Speaker. The City of Winnipeg has indicated th at they would like to have a hearing, an environmental assessment, done on the development on Omand's Creek. Quite certainly, if we receive a proposal that would require an assessment, we will be more than glad to have it done. Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENTS •

(1420) Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): ·C ould I have leave of the House to make a non-politi cal statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Minister have leave to make a non-politic al statement? Some· Hqnourable Members: Leave. Mrs . Mitchelson: Last night I had the pleasure of attending the gala premiere of Mob Story, a feature length film written , dir ected and produc ed by Manitobans. This film marks an important new step in the history of filmmaking in the province.

Mob Story was shot entirely in Manitoba and will be opening in th eatres. across Canada in early November. This film written and directed by Winnipeg's Jancarlo and Gabriel Markiw invested over $1.4 million within our province and provided work to a cast and crew of nearly 50: As well, the provincial Government's investment in Mob Story helped to lever $900 ,000 of federal funding in Telefilm Canada and over $30 0, 000 from the private sector. I am sure the House wi ll want to join me in congratulating the cast and crew of Mob Story. Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): Mr. Speaker . Mr.

Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave to make a non-polit ical statement? Some Honourable Members: Leave. ··.Ms. Hemphill: We too would like to join the Minister in congratulating the production of Mob Story and indicate that this is just one of the many examples, I think, of the tremendous quality that we have been developing over the years in Manitoba for film and theatre production. We would like to congratulate them on this effort and encourage them to continue to move forward to put Manitoba on the map as a reasonably major film industry. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon.

James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I understand that there may be a possibility that we might finish the examination of the Estimates of the Department of Agricu lture today. If that were to happ en, which I do not know at this point, but if it were, the Department of Rural Development would follow that department in the Cham ber. On that basis, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation (Mr s. Mitchelson), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carri ed and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Sup ply to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transportation; and the Honourable Member for Swan River (Mr. Burrell) in the Chair for the Department of Agricultur e. •

(1430) CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-HIGHWAYS AND . TRANSPORTATION Mr. Chairman (Harold Gilleshammer): I would like to call this meeting to order to discuss the Estimates of the Highways and Transportation. We are on item 6. Dr iver and Vehicle Licensing. Adminis ters hig hwa y safety programs thr ough driver improvement, safety, public information and driver testing and maintenance of records on drivers involved in accidents or convicted of traffic violations. Provides for those matters relating to driver and vehicle registrat ion not specificall y dele gated to the Ma nitoba Publ ic Insurance Corporation. (

a) Management Services:

(1) Salaries, $2,262,000-the Member for Assiniboia. Mr. Ed Mandrake (As siniboia): Mr. Ch airman, would you be so kind as to now give me some direction on this? Under the line

(1) Salaries, are we going to be able to ask questions in all aspects of the various related boards and committees that are under the jurisdiction of this Minister? Mr. Chairman: Th ey, I am told, should be dealt with on the next page, on No. 7, Board and Committees. Shall th e item pass-the Member for Assiniboia. 1528

• Tuesday, October 3, 1989 Mr. Mandrake: I just noticed an increase here, Mr. Chairman, from approximately $100,000, could the Minister be so kind as to explain to us what this is, wha t does it involve? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Chairman, that is the normal incr ease in increments that take place within the department. There is an increase of one staff under the National Safety Code. Mr. Mandrake: That is fine, Mr. Minister, I will let the Member for Dauph in ask questions. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Chairman, I wanted to ask regarding Order-in-Cou ncil 1147, which was passed on the 27 September of '89. In that Order-in Council the Minister brought forward changes to the regulation dealing with Clause 319(1)(eee) and (vvv) prescribing fees payable in respect of any matter and so on. Could the Minister indicate what cha nges, and significant chan ges were made in the fee structure for licensing and replacement of driver's licences and so on, were actually made in that Order-in-Cou ncil? Ju st a general statement, and this is set out in an addendum, or schedule. The

schedule is not attached to the Order in- Council and it covers so many different things that there could be very significant increases in there that I would not be aware of in just looking at the Order in- Council. Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr.

Chairman, these increases of fees or changes in fees are all related to the drinking and driving legislation that was passed and pertained to an increase in the fee, for example, reinstatem ent of li cenc e after suspension, where basically the objective is to try and have the public not have to pay for it so we try to recover our costs for the various reviews and appeals that are in place. So, for example, reinstatement of a licence after suspension are prepayable for obtaining a driver's licence by a person following the suspension of that person's licence or permit.

I can go into more detail, basically that fee is $40 .00. There is a further change, administrative licence suspension review fee. The fees payable for an administrative review under

Section 263.2 of the Act are $90 for a review with an oral hearing and $45 for a review without oral hearing. That is what the Order-i n-Cou ncil basically deals with. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister just indicate a glob al estimate of the revenue increase that this would provide to the province? The specific fee increases from what they were to what they are now, and what fees are new on a separate handout rather than going through them all. Mr. Albert Driedger: Both those fees are new.

Because these are new fees for the balance of this year, we antici pate colle cting a $1 00,000 based on all the applications as an ongoing rate. In a full year it could work up to approximately half a million dollars. Mr. Plohman: Is the Minister saying there are only two new fees that were, I did not hear exactly what the Minister indicated. There are two new areas of fees being collected. Is that all we are dealing with here? We are not dealing with a revision of all of the fees under that section? Mr.

Albert Driedger: No, we are just dealing with two specific areas which are new fees based on the drinking and driving legislation which we will take and deal with the reviews and appeals. Mr. Plohman: Can the Minister indicate whether he has also brought in revisions to other fees under this

section in this past year? Mr. Albert Driedger: Based on the fees that we have here, that we will be applyi ng, or we are considering applying, the same fee applications to all crirninal related ch arges under the Criminal Code. Mr. Plohman: So the Minister is saying there will be a number of additional fees corning forward yet? Mr. Albert Driedger: I am told that there will be a small increase in fees and the criminally-related charges for reinstatement, but it is of a nominal nature. Mr.

Plohman: I wanted to ask the Minister whether it would be appropriate to ask about driver testing under this section, or should it be under safety or licensing or where? Also the Manitoba Safety Council and Safety Program for taxi drivers, for example, I want to raise with the Minister. Can I do that under this

section or under Management? Mr. Albert Driedger: I have no ob jection to that because what we have done from now, we have covered everything under that jurisdiction and the previous categories. If we want to deal with anything that is related to driver and vehicle licensing and safety, we can deal with that here, we have no difficulty. * (1440) ***** Mr. Chairman: On a point of order, the Member for Assiniboia. Mr. Mandrake: That is the reason for my previous question, Mr. Chai rman. Now we are deviating from what we had originally said.

We are going to go step by step in the appropriate manner, but if we are going to go asking questions about licensing under The Highw ay Act, The Motor Transport Board Act, under this particular line, fine. But I wish if that is going to be done, then I would sure like to place a few questions under those particular issues. Mr. Chairman: On the same point of order. The Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the Member for Assiniboia asked about the boards and committees that were under the jurisdiction of the Minister. The Chairman correctly pointed out that comes on the next 1529

Tuesday, October 3, 1989 page, Boards · and Committees, and it deals with the Motor Transport Board, Highw ay Traffic Board, Licence . . SuspQA$ion Appeal Board and so on. So I was not asking about questions that would fall under there, I am asking about questions that I believe fall under Driver and Vehicle Licensing. It is jus t a question of whether they fall under line 1, or whether they go further down into (b), (

c) or (d), not on the next page in a comp letely different appropriation. So I do not know if the Member is speaking about the same issue, Mr. Chairman. I am talking about issues that come under Driver and Vehicle Licensing. Mr. Ch airman: I would thank Honourable Members for their input. A dispute over the facts is not a point of order, We must pass these issues line by line and I think the Minister has indicated a little bit of latitude in proceeding through here. ** "'* * Mr. Chairman: On the issue then, the Member for Dal!phin. Mr.

Plohman: Yes, I have a number of issues that I would like to raise with the Minister. Firstly, just Order in- Council 951 dealing with the grant to the Community Therapy Services of Manitoba, could the Minister just indicate what that $7,0 00 grant was for and is this the first one? I do not recall this particular group receiving funds in the past from the Minister of Highways and Transportation? Mr. Albert. Driedger: Mr. Cha irman, this is the first time th at grant has been paid out, the $7,000.00. As indicated, it is paid to the Community Therapy Services of Manitoba.

This is an organization that helps the handicapped group regarding parking, ha nding outthe decals, et cetera, so we feel it is a beneficial program, a needed program and we are quite pleased with that. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Cha irman, is this in conjunction with the rural transportation of handicapped people in any way? What exactly will they be doing with this funding? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chai rman, this is to help staff, a portion of one person to be in the office to handle the phone calls of people who phone about getting decals, the handicap decals for parking.

So this is just to assist with that organization where people can phone in. Mem bers are well aware that we ha ve the handicapped parking aspect of it where you can park, you need a special decal for it, and so we actually are funding part of that whole . system there through this organization_ Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman , I recall the formation of that program and the requirement of a placard and decal for parking, and this is now not being administered by the department then, it is being administered by the Community Therapy Program? ·Mr.

Albert Driedger: Mr, Chairman, the department i s still admin istrat ing the pr ogram itself. This organization is sort of acting as a storefront help in terms of providing that information. So it is sort of a hand�in�hand type ot operation that we have with them . We still have the actual administration aspect of it, it still comes to the department. Mr. Plohman: Also, now on to a topic dealing with defensiv e driving cou rses . The taxi drivers were obviously concerned about the whole issue of safety for taxi drivers themselves in light of particularly wha t hap pened again in this past week.

We are also concerned about the public, and the fact is that taxis have rather a bad experience overall with accidents. The cost to MPIC has always been more tha n the premiums paid over the years and I guess it is catching up with the additional costs thatt hey are having to pay in premiums for insurance through MP IC. Obviously, because of the length of time that they are on the road and the number of kilometres they make it stands to reason that they would have a hig her accident rate.

It is important to protect the public by requiring, I believe, special training programs for taxi drivers, in the same way we would require ambulance drivers and so on to be trained. I would think that taxi drivers should have special testing and I believe we were implementing something in that regard.

Can the Minister indicate whether he has proceeded in any way to implement a requirement for new taxi drivers to have a defensive driving course, for example, which it seems to me would be a positive step and well received by the publ ic, especially in light of the claims that are made by taxi drivers to MP IC for accidents, and the need to protect the public since they are carrying passengers. Mr.

Albert Driedger: As indicated yesterday, in my response in the House, was four mandatory actions that were, well, four were by the Wally Fox-Decent committee on dealing with the four-month review of taxi _driver safety and health with regard to Winnipeg taxis. The first one that was a mandatory program was the training program for new drivers and dispatchers. This has been instituted by the taxicab board. That program is offered to all taxicab drivers.

As far as forcing or mandating any of the drivers to take a defensive driving course, at the present time, and there is some sensitivity in this area because the question is, why should we single out the taxicab drivers as such, when at the present time we have regulations and legislation in place that if a person has so and so many demerits he automatically has to come for a show cause hearing. Subsequent to that, he will then, if there is further neglect and further problems, ultimately be subjected to the loss of their driver's licence like anybody else.

The sensitivity comes in the fact that we, it is felt, especially by the taxicab industry, that they should not be dealt with differently than anybody else. Mr. Plohman: I understand that the Fox-Decent Report dealt ·with recom mendations, a num ber of recommendatioflS: One; · passenger information and other, the mandatory ones as the Minister outlined, the 1530

Tuesday, October 3, 1989 shields. It also dealt with passenger information, I said that, a light, an external light that could be activated by the driver and also training for drivers. I understood that training was largely the geography of the city, customer relations, dealing with customers and the need for good upkeep of the car, cleanliness and so on, as part of the training. I think that is something separate from what I am thinking of. Th ose things are all important for the driver to have, but it is also important from the public's point of view that the driver training, special driver training, be put in place. That is what I was asking the Minister. *

(1450) In view of the special responsibility that they have in transporting the public, there would be a reason for singling them out. As the Minister said, there is a sensitivity not to discriminate against one group of drivers. In this case, they are transporting passengers for pay, and therefore it is a unique situation. Has the Minister any intentions of considering a program such as that, or has he basically ruled it out as being unfair or not necessary? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to take that recommendation over to the chairman.

As I indic ated yesterd ay, we are in the pr ocess of establishing a taxicab advisory board, especially in view of the activities of the last weekend. I have talked with the chai rman of the Taxicab Board and indicated to him that first of all, I think our constitution is ready for that board, and have indicated to him to deal with other is sues tha t come forw ard . I will forward thi s recommendation as well to him, including the fact that the safety aspect of it is something that we want dealt with for the drivers and certainly for the public use as well.

So we will forward this as part of the recommendation that once the advisory board has been established that they deal with that as well and look at the possibilities of the pros and cons of it. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the Minister's undertaking. I also wanted to ask him about Dimar Trai ning Sys tems.

When Bill Ward made many app roaches to me, as Minister over a four-year period, to be recognized for his program, Performance Driving, I believe that he established at Gimli, there was a rather sign ificant fiasco there with the race track that was set up which eventually was settled through a great deal of ingenuity by the people involved, the local people involved, in setting up that track at the old airstrip th ere. I understand that now the Minister has agreed to app rove this training system as an alternate to the Manitoba Safety Council.

Now, whether it is at Gimli or some other location, I am not certain whether that is significant. Wha t is significant is that it is the same operator. I would ask the Minister if that is correct, that drivers now who have to take a defensive driving course now have an option of taking either a course offered by this gentleman through Dimar Training Systems, a private for-profit operation, and the Manitoba Safety 1531 Council's Defensive Driving Course? Is that a fact, that these are both now made available to the public as an option? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, first of all, I would have to indicate that we have had occasion to meet with Dimar people, or the company representatives, on various occasions. Departmental staff has been looking at a program-in cidentally the program that we are talking about is not the one that was being given at Gimli. This is a different course that we are talking about here. It is an advanced driving course, I supp ose, because some of the Crown corporations, for example, the companies have their people take this course where you drive company vehicles.

It is sort of an advanced course, I supp ose, completely different from the crash course, if I can call it that, the one that was established at Gimli. Mr. Plohman: Performance Driving. Mr. Albert Driedger: Anyway, what has happened, we have met with them, we have reviewed the whole situation. We see the request was whether their course could be offered as an option to the Manitoba Defensive Driving Course. We have checked through that. We feel there is no big problem with offering it as an option.

You have to understand that we want to be very careful that we allow it only as an option because the Manitoba Defensive Driving Course costs $30

whereas the course offered by Dimar costs 100.00. So if somebody feels tha t th ey want to ha ve a more-should I call it advanced?-1 supp ose it would be advanced because they do more actual driving that just instructive course, so we are in the process of allowing this program to come forward as an option. If somebody wants to take it and pay the additional funding, that is their prerogative but it will not deter from anybody taking the defensive driving course for $30 as we have it in place right now. Mr. Plohman: My understanding is that Mr.

Ward has already been approved, and he is representing himself as approved by Government and marketing himself in that way. I take it from the Minister that he is saying that he is sanctioning this course, and I would ask him then on what basis? Is this personal experience? I know that Mr. Ward for months and years wanted me to take his performance driving course and I never did. I wonder if the Minis ter ha s been out there and ha d tha t experience and decided this is good for all drivers and it should be available as an option. On whos e recommendation has he sanctioned this course?

We have to remember now that the Manitoba Safety Council has operated a defensive driving course for years. We are saying to the public, you can go here and it is safe for you to do so and it is a good cou rse and we want you to have the option of taking that. That is what we are saying when we offer it as an option. I just wonder on what basis the Minister has made that decision. Mr. Albert Driedger: First of all, Mr. Chairman, I think the Member should be careful not to confuse the program that Mr. Ward was off ering at Gimli. This is a different program that he has developed which he

Tuesday, October 3, 1989 is offering, as I indicated before, to those corporations that want to have it. I do not want the Member to confuse -I call it a crash cou rse, - but maybe that is the wrong word to use.- (interjection)- Crash avoidance course, okay. This is a different course, but before we even consider anything of this nature with staff, I myself have not taken either course but staff, when the request has come for ward , th ey looked at it very, very objectively. In fact we had a very nervous individual who felt that we were combing it too closely and were taking too much time to review it.

Staff have taken the course, reviewed it and feel that we have no objection offering it as an alternative. The Member should well know, having been the Minister, that my staff and Driver and Vehicle Licensing are very sensitive about anything that would impinge on safety and they have not chang ed their attitude at all. In fact 1. would suspect that they may have gotten a little tighter in some cases. Tha t is not said as a slight, that is a compliment. Based on the advice that, after having taken the course and reviewed exactly what it is doing, they felt that we should have no problem with the course.

As a result, a decision was made to aliow this as an .option. · Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, just this one last question on this. I do not want to cast any aspersions on the individual involved in this. I know that Mr. Ward is certainly a very smooth operator and he is a good businessman, in other words. He certainly can sell himself and his program. Has the Minister, in addition to considering the actual safety of the course, looked into this individual's background in depth to assure himself that he should . have this kind of responsibility entrusted in him?

Jus t a question on that because I think that is very important from the public's point of view. *

(1500) Mr. Alb ert Driedger: Mr. Chairman , I have not done a baclsground investigation of the individual. I would just like to jndicate that the fact that we have allowed this option, that we will be looking at it very, very, carefully. If we feel there is any way that the privilege of the option is going to be abused in any way at all that is the same prerogative of giving the individual that right, it can also be taken away. So we are going to be watching .this one very, very closely because certainly by doing this it is a judgment call, and we want to make sure that it works.

So as far as the individual is concerned, whether to what degree that would be relevant if he-'- 1 do not think he has a criminal background. Certainly, the fact that he is an astute businessman should certainly not be a detriment to coming forward with a propos al, but I just want to indicate that we will be watching this one very, very closely. Mr. Plohman: Just, Mr. Chairman, to conclude on that. I did not suggest that he has any criminal background or anything untoward because I do· not know that.

But I think it is important that if any individual comes forward with something like this- tha t there be· some type of bonding requirement or some special safety check th at is done, a security check , and so on, iri that kind of situation. That is really all I am asking the Minister. I am not in any way suggesting that he could not meet all of the requirements with flying colours. I am just asking the Minister whether in fact that kind of thing was done or not. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, he has to qualify and complete an examination to qualify as a driver, instructor's permit.

When I indicated before that we are contemplating giving him the licence, this is part of the condition that he still has to take that qualifying course. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to just touch on another area before turning this over to the Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Mandrake) or others who might have questions in t'1is area, the question of driver testing and waiting periods. I h ave been approached by a couple of individuals indicating to me that there are rather significant line-ups and waiting time to get a driver test at the present time.

I am wondering whether the Minister can assure the committee that this is not because of reductions in staff in that area, or why that is taking place at this particular time of the year, because in discussing this with the Registrar in the past it certainly has been indicated, and I recall, that the spring of the year is usually the busy time. Yet these people have indicated they had to wait six weeks, and after persistently making some calls they finally got it down to four weeks, they said. I thought that was rather a long tim e for a person to wait.

This is in the City of Winnipeg I am talking about, not outside. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, first of all, the Member is probably aware that we have moved to centralized booking, and I can recall when I was in the Oppos ition that myself, as well as my colleague from Steinbach, Bob Banman, at that time, constantly raised the issue with the Government of the Day about the tremendous line-ups that were taking place, espe cially in certain centres. In some areas there was no problem, in some areas there were extreme problems.

I know of many cases, even my own childr en when they went for their driver's test, they did not go to the nearest community of Steinbach. They went to Vita where there was not the line-u p. Because what happens in some cases kids were getting up at five o'clock in the morning, were sitting the re waiting and waiting, and ultimately there were some bookings taken and some were taken ad hoe type of thing. Invariably they maybe have to go two or th ree times before they finally got their tests. I always criticized that when I was in Opposition.

Now we have the centralized booking system in place, and we feel that generally it is working extremely well. It has finally taken that waiting and anxiety out of it whe re you can get a time and go. Th ere were some flaws when we implemented it, but we are streamlining it more all the time. We have also changed the various communities, which days we are there. In the rural area, I woul d·· feel that it is working exceptionally well; a big improvement over 1532

Tuesday, October 3, 1989 wha t we had before. The Member is correct that prior to bringing in the centralized booking in Winnipeg, the normal waiting period was seven weeks. Tha t was the average waiting period that you had. We still have cases in Winnipeg during the busy time where it could be anywhere up to that. Tha t would be at the maximum when it is busy; however, as things taper off it could be as little as th ree and four days of waiting. So centralized booking in our view is definitely working.

We have had many communities express concern about maybe a reduced service; in some cases, it is perceived cut back of ser vice. However, we ha ve indicated all along that the moment that the demand builds up in these areas that we will escalate our service in that area. We think it is a much more professional and rationale approach, and I think it is a benefit to the people that want to be, that make applica tion. So as indicated initially, there was a lot of apprehension I suppose from the general public about how it would work.

We feel that-a nd I have scrutinized it possibly closer than maybe any other having some concerns about that. Certainly when it appears that maybe or it did appear that there was a reduction of service in the rural area, I felt very conscious of that because that was perception. We feel now that we have it in a working mode acceptable, I think, to us. We feel comfortable with it. We are going to watch it very carefully. We have indicated to communities that have expressed concerns about a possible reduction that the moment the demand is th ere that we will provide the service.

We think it is done in a much more orderly fashion. Mr. Plohman: It is good to hear that the system is improved through the centralized booking and that was obviously the hope th at th ere needed to be tha t improvement and that there would be as a result. I am just asking the Minister whether it is usual to have that length of period at this time of the year? Whether additional staff are put on when there is a backlog, perhaps redistributed, jugg led the staff to areas of high demand?

In the area now which is, we are talking October, for a four-week waiting period, the individual that last talked to me mentioned that it was six weeks initially. Mr. Albert Driedger: I am informed by staff that at the present time, we are performing more tests than we have over the last three years for this time of year. The same thing appl ies apparently in driving schools , they are booked heavier now than they have been. When we talk of a seven-week waiting period, I am going to be check ing with staff to see if there are ways in which we can improve that aspect of it.

The thing is not stagnant, it just does not stay at a level line. It keeps fluctuating all the time. You cannot have staff there to take and address all the situations because then we would have them on pay doing nothing half of the time. It is a matter of trying to adjust these thi ngs. Even the concern expressed by the Member will make me go back and see whether there are ways that we can look at improving it. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chai rman, that is all the questions I have right at this time and I will come back to them later. Mr. Mandrake: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Dauphin brought out the handicapped decals.

At the present time, if I am not badly mistaken, it is just a sheet of paper that is placed on the dashboard of the vehicle. Am I right or am I wrong? * (15 10) Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chai rman, it can be on the dashboard . or it can be on the windsh ield, back or front. The choic e is left up to the vehicle owner where he wants to put that decal. Mr. Mandrake: The method is acce ptable , Mr.

Chai rman, but if I may at this time offer a suggestion to the Minister, probably adopting some kind of a same type of a program that is used in Germany, when you go into vehicle inspection a little decal at the back of the vehicle with a wheelchair on it and affixed to the rear licence plate. It could be done when you renew your plates instead of going through this losing this card. I know I have lost my card in my car for parking. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chai rman, I am informed that this was looked at but the respons e from the handicapped group is that they do not necessarily want it on a permanent basis because it could make them vulnerable to abuse or attack or stuff of that nature if they have it in their permanently. They prefer to take and put it on when they park and other than that do not have it on there. When you have a permanent, a fixed, thing on the back of the windsh ield it identifies them on an ongoing basis as having some disability problems, that is the reason why the option is there to take and put it on your windsh ield or put it on the back.

Mr. Chai rman, further to that, there is a decal that may be fixed to the upper left-hand corner of your rear number plate of your vehic le, on the licence plate, basically that kind of a thing. Mr. Mandrake: The reason why I am asking that question, Mr. Chai rman, is because I have spoken to several of the handicapped people who have these decals in the car and they are not aware of the fact that they can use a decal placed on the rear licence plate.

Now, I think we could probably take a far more aggressive role and offer this information to these people because, as I said, I know the City of Winnipeg's pass that you put on your dash, a wind comes along, blows it out the car. It has happened to me on numerous occasions and for a person who is handicapped I would prefer to have an educational program offering them at least this other avenue that they can utilize. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chai rman, when they come and apply for one of these decals, and we talked about that program before, they get a brochu re, the brochur e that I just sh owed to the Member here which indicates exactly the options that they have in there. If they are not aware of it, that is something that we cannot be responsible for because the information is right there. It is right in here and they get this when they make the application. See, right in there, so that is available 1533

Tuesday, October 3, 1989 to them and certainly I think everybody that would want to read that -and I would expect that people would they should then realize there is that option of having that on their licence plate. Mr. Mandrake: The Member for Dauphin says: I spent a lot of time developing that brochure, but I am just only asking, Mr. Chairman. When the y are applying for this, are they advised of the alternatives? If they are, fine, sir, I will not go any further than that. Let us go on to the centralized booking system, Mr. Chairman.

I am quite confident everybody around this table must know Ed Fabian from Brandon. I have received a letter from him dated the 9th of August 1989 and the se are just a couple of cases which he has brough t to my attention regard ing the central ized booking system. He speaks about a family member who was told to go to Treherne to get his driver's testing as opposed to Rivers. Another person from Anola was directed by the centralized booking system to go to Boissevain instead of Beausejour, only to find that no in terviews were being held on that day in Boissevain, having made the journey as directed.

I have numerous documents here that would provide the Minister of some of the dastardly deeds that are going on with this centralized booking system and the hour s that they have spent trying to get thr ough. I think this is where the problem comes in, is trying to get thr ough on the line to the central book ing system operator. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, first of all I think I probably get more correspondence than maybe the Member does when it comes to these issues. I would like to indicate though, and we have no problems admitting error when we made one.

In the case of Anola, th is was an error that was made and in the case of Mr. Fabian from Brandon, we have a real pile of correspondence that has come forward and we have addressed pretty well everyone of his concerns, maybe not to his satisfaction. The Member probably knows that Mr. Fabian is a commercial driving instructor. In fact, three weeks ago we sent staff out to meet with him and have a discussion with him. We ha ve actually adopted some of his rec ommendations. Mr. Fabian is, I do not think, necessarily that impressed with the centralized booking system. He is against it.

He has written myself on numerous occa sions. He has written the Attorney General and I do not know whether he has written the Chairman. He has not, well, maybe that is one he has missed. Certainly we are well aware of Mr. Fabian's concerns. We have been trying to deal with it and will continue to do so. I dare say, Mr. Chairman, that I will not-th ere better be some, aside from the fact that we have admitted that during the implementation of the program we had similar difficulties.

We have this all straightened out and I personally feel very confident and feel good about the program and if there are areas where we have to review things, I am prepared to take that. As a general criticism I hope there is some good validity in terms of making criticism towards the system. Mr. Mandrake: Mr. Chairman, I am sure the Minister remembers a newsletter I sent out on the amount of time that the people on the outlying areas take before they can get through to the centralized booking system. I think this is the frustrating part of it because they have to get through on this WATS line, this 800 line.

It is very, very frustrating when it takes that length of time to get thr ough. Is there anything that this Minister or his department has ever done to address this issue at the most critical times, and I think the times are between May and, say, October, November. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, as I indicated during the implementation period that we had some technic al problems and that was part of the problem. As I indicated, we have been trying to address these things in an ongoing basil:l. We think that in the last two months we have dealt with that to some degree.

In fact, we have had our own people phoning just to test to make sure that we can get through, and we think we have the problem resolved. I would also like to indicate that for next year that we are looking at possibly adding a few extra staff and ph ones during the busy season so that we can even streamline it further. But, by and large, we feel the service that is being provided is a much, much better service tha n we have had in the past under the other system. *

(1520) Mr. Mandrake: I appreciate what the Minister has just finished saying. Would he be so kind as to table all of the initia tives th at he ha s taken to impr ove the centralized booking system so that when Mr. Fabian does contact me, at least I would not have to then put the onus on his department or Mr. Coyle's department saying, go speak to him? If I could be provided with some of this information, maybe I could probably help out Mr Fabian in answering some of the questions that would be helpful to him. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I have a great difficulty with that. We are in communication with Mr.

Fabian, we have responded to his letters. If the Member wants, maybe he can get cop ies of Mr. Fabian's correspondence with us and look what we have done. I mean it is not a secret what we have done, but I have just indicated he has been writing to us on an ongoing basis. We have not just responded by correspondence, we have act ually sent somebody out to meet with him and talk of these things. Now, I am supposed to indicate exactly wha t we have done in terms of Mr. Fabian's concern, if he is going to contact him. He is contacting us on a re gular basis. If the Member wants that information, Mr.

Fabian can provide him wh atever information that we have sent him. Mr. Mandrake: The Minister is getting rather vexed. Well, I am sorry, Mr. Minister. All I am asking for is wha t I have brought to your attention just now. Sure, you say you have taken initial action to correct it. Wha t other type of initiatives have you done, have you taken, to eliminate some of the problems that were addressed? 1534

- Tuesday, October 3, 1989 Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I thought I had outlined it relatively clearly when I came forward with this thing, indicating that when we implemented this new centralized booking prog ram that we ran into certain difficult ies with the phoning aspect of it. We have tried to have an ongoing improvement of this service and we are still doing th at. The Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) raised the fact that there were still, at certain times, long waiting periods. We are trying to address that.

It has been an ongoing thing since the time that we implemented the prog ram in terms of trying to make the improvements. So I do not know wha t the Member is looking for, a list of saying this is how it was and then we changed the hours, and we changed this, and we changed that. I have indicated that we have the system working much, much better. We feel relatively comfortable with it. It does not mean that we are totally satisfied with it, and we will continue to upgrade it. But the program itself has been I think a tremendous improvement.

I repeat again that I think that with the exception of a few individuals who probably did not understand it, we are providing a much, much better service than we have ever done before. We will continue to try and improve it even further. Mr. Mandrake: Well, I do not ask the Minister for a detailed comprehensive report. It is just some of the issues tha t were brought, in fact, by the Member which were answered, and all I am saying is that I know, for example, he makes mention of the problems about going to- An Honourable Member: Boissevain. Mr. Mandrake: Yes, Boissevain and places like that.

Hopefully, that will be addressed so that it does not happen again. I mean, if it means a public relations seminar with the people who are operators or answering the phones, has that been addressed? It is as simple as that. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I would like to indicate that we are monitoring this program on an ongoing basis. I also indicated, and not in defence of ourselves, but the fact that an error was made in a particular case at Anola.

If we feel that at any case that the service, that there is more demand for it, I have said this to many, many communities who express concern about how the program was going to be affecting them. I have indicated many times that if the need is there we have the flexibility to take and provide additional service, and we certainly will do that. So I want to stress again that I think that we have gone through some growing pains. I think we have the thing well on track. There is a lot of effort and thought that has gone into this thing and we are very pleased with the way it is going.

I am not saying that we are resting on our laurels. If there are further improvements, we will certainly address them. If there are individual concerns at any given time, it does not have to be today here. In most cases, if the Member gets a copy I probably already had a letter on it, and we have already been looking at it, but if there are specific concerns and he does not feel comfortable with the way we have dealt with it, bring it back to us. We do not have a closed-door policy. The Member can raise it with Mr. Coyle here, who is very receptive to running a good shop.

If there are concerns, he is prepared to address those. Mr. Chairman: 6.(a)( 1)- pass. 6.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures, $2, 123,8 00-the Member ' for Assiniboia. Mr. Mandrake: I have just one question on this line here. Recoverable from Canada of $40,000.00, what is the reason for this recovery? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, that is related in part to our National Safety Code. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass -the Honourable Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chai rman, the Safety Code could be discussed under Transport, Safety and Regulation. Thank you. Mr. Chairman: Item 6.(a)(2)- pass. 6.(

b) Lic ensi ng:

(1) Sala ries, $1 ,423,700-the Member for Dauphin. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate the current status of the photo-lic ence system. I believe he has indicated the Government has approved it for implementation. When it will be implemented, what the cost to the driver will be, and if there are any other issues relating to its implementation, if the Minister could summarize for us? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Chairman, first of all, I have always been supportive of the pho to licensing as such, and with the responsibility within my department I was very keen when the issue came up about developing a ph oto licensing . . . Mr. Plohman: Something like tollgates. Mr. Albert Driedger: I will get you for that, John . I will get you for that.

However, I have to indicate that when we entered into discussion with staff about the idea of ph oto licensing, and quite a few jurisdictions have it already, it was my perception that we could make a decision, figur e out roughly the cost, then within three months we would be snapping pictures and having them on drivers. Well, hello, hello, did I get a rude awakening. It is not quite the way it works. It is a very complex way, and we have had endless advice. We have looked at endless options on this and looked to other jurisdictions that have done it.

Invariably I have to say that in the case of Ontario I think it took th ree years from the time that they made the decision until they finally had them on. Wha t makes it un ique in Manitoba is the fact that we have insurance on top of our driver's licence, while 1535

Tuesday, October 3, 1989 other jurisdictions just have straight drivers' licences. Then you could maybe take a picture and have it all , on one C;ird, We)1a11e looked at every option under the sun. Even my own colleagues have been very critical in terms of why it can not be done faster, why can it not be done this way, why can it not be done that way. We have used every avenue of research in terms of trying to establish a system that would be an adequate system, that would fit in with the fact that the driver's licence is a very personal thing and your driving record goes with that as well.

The confidentiality aspect of it has to be dealt with. The decision, basically, was to go with photo licensing, and that we would be going with a two-part licence, one being the photo and one being the renewal document which has to be renewed on an annual basis. One of th e complexities of that is our renewal .document has to ha ve all the per tinent information ori there, bilingually included, plus the donor aspect of it. It is impossible that we could get it alHnto one card with a photo there, so it is a two-part document that we · have: *

(1530) The d.f'iver's licence has to be renewed on an annual basis. Your photo licensing, the way we are proposing it, would be renewable every four years once we have the imp lementation progra m. It is a tremendous comp lex problem. In fact, Mr. Chairman, I might say that as staff came forward with various proposals and presentations, it was almost frustrating. I felt there had to be a faster and better way, but we have exhausted all those options. We feel there is no better way. We finally decided on a program and a plan that we felt was acceptable. We have tendered that.

The tenders have come in, and we are in the process of evaluating those tenders at the present time. Once we have that information, I will be going forward with a recommendation to Cabinet, and then decisions wilt be made in terms of whether we proceed with it from thereon in. Generally, I have approval in principle to proceed wit.h it. In spite of the fact, if everything goes according to plan and we go through .the various hoops and approvals at this stage of the game, we still would not be looking at implementation until Janu ary 1, 1991, so we still have well over a year.

It will take us 12 to 16 months to get this system in place. Wha t would be involved is, because we are looking at a system whereby you can go to a certain agent and have your picture taken, we have to look at speed. Because if anyone has gone for a driver's licence at ttie end of the month, you know that there are long line�ups, so we cannot have a process that is going to take 15 to 20 minutes and stuff like that. So the picture has to be taken. Jt has to be co-ord inated, together with your driver's licence information, which tias to be registered on our computers.

If you lose your picture, for example.. you know that you can get an extra document-c ome forward. I could go on at length about all the implications of this thing. We are at the verge, based on the question that the Member asked, of making that decision. We are evaJoafing the tenders that we have right now. Once we have done· that, then we will go through the various stages. I do not know whether I am at liberty to indicate the cost factor at this stage of the game, because I think th at is something that"Cabinet has to make a decision as to how the process will be handled and how we will allocate the costs. Mr.

Plohman: Mr. Chairman, I am not surprised about what the Minister is saying because I have received that information previously. When we looked at this in just a cursory way, it was rather complex and expensive, and not something that was easily done. So I was rather surprised when the Minister announced that he was going to be doing this, and now it seems like it is perhaps even uncertain whether it wou ld actually proceed, depending on the costs. That is why I think the costs are important. The time is also important.

The Minister says that the earliest would be 1991, but the issue is one also of cost, and perhaps if it is passed directly on to the motorists, to the people being licensed, then people will not mind paying it. That is something obviously the Government has to weigh, but there is a substantial increase in the budget for this Minister in this area, if he is going to see it implemented. I see a 10 percent increase in licensing for this year.

Is some of this for-a nd I notice in the Supplementary Information, increase in staff years for the Photo Driver Licensing and Merit Discount Program, can the Minister indicate whether one or two staff are working full time on developing this licensing system, or would that be overstating it? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, we have seconded five staffpersons to work on the photo-licensi ng at the present time. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Chairman, the Minister mentioned something about a tender, evaluating a tender. Is he telling us that he has asked for tenders already for pho to-l icence?

Was this for developing the concept? Is this for an actual-would this be farmed out to a private company to do? Is he at the stage of actually evaluating a tender? Is this just a preliminary proposal to get an idea of ball park figures? Mr. Alb ert Driedger: We are past the initial proposal stage, we have actually tendered the project. We are analyzing the tenders at the present time. The decision, once we have analyzed the tenders, then will go forward to Cabinet and further decisions will be made under the terms of implementation of it. We will be having hard figures at tha.t stage of the game. Mr.

Plohman: The Minister cannot indicate a global figure inc luding administrative costs and so on that wou ld not affect the evaluation of this tender or jeopardize anyone. Is he talking something like a $2 million figure to implement or a $3 million figure to implement, somewhere in between? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, I would not be prepared to make any statement on that basis at the present time, because we have to make a decision as to, once we have the final figures to take forward, 1536

- Tuesday, October 3, 1989 whether we are going to use a cost-recovery system or whether we are going to have a subsidized system and stuff of that nature. I am not prepared to divulge figures at this stage of the game. Mr. Plohman: I was not asking the Minister how he is going to recover the costs, whether it is going to come from general revenue or whether it is going to come form increased fees, from another type of taxation. It is just a matter of wha t the cost would be to implement. I was asking for a glob al figure here and not for the cost to the driver or to the taxpayer of implementing this program.

I agree that it is a very positive thing, although there is at some point a trade-off when you come to the costs. It is difficult to discuss the merits of such a proposal without, on the other side, wei ghing the actual costs of implementing it. The Minister, I think, is at the point wh ere he does know the costs of implementing it. He just does not know how he is going to collect them yet. He has a ball park figure of what it is going to cost. Am I high when I say $3 million or is that low, or is that even close? Mr. Albert Driedger: I do not have hard figu res here.

I am not going to confirm or deny or speculate as to what the figures will be. Once we move forward with this thing, it is not going to be a secret, we are not going to hide how much the things are going to cost. It will be packaged properly, the information will come forward and then the Member can applaud or criticize wh atever he wants at that stage of the game. At this stage of the game I would not be prepared to forward information of which I am not sure of. Mr. Plohman: Then can the Minister indicate, and we will let him off the hook easy again as we usually do here, feeling sorry for him.

The Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Mandrake) is not going to let him off the hook, and he is going to hammer him away and then I am going to come back again and we are going to keep pushing for this. Wha t I would like to know is: will the Minister be able to give us a timetable, a projected timetable now since he is finished the evaluation? The initial proposals, and he has a tender that is going forward. Wha t are we looking at in terms of an announcement? Before Ch ristmas, in terms of a go on this or is it sometime in the New Year before a decision will be made in the Minister's timetable? Mr.

Albert Driedger: Sometime this fall. Mr. Plohman: So we should know, is there any monies in here for implementation in this budget in these lines for implementation of this program? Mr. Albert Driedger: Only development costs. Mr. Plohman: In addition to the increase in the salaries portion and the secondment of five staff, there is also some in the Other Expenditures line that has been allocated for development of this project. How much could we say has been used there? Mr. Albert Driedger: In this appropriation there is $70,000, Mr. Chai rman. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Chairman, is ther e another appropriation with other dollars? Mr. Albert Driedger: Yes. *

(1540) Mr. Plohman: Which is that and how much? I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, which is that and how much? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chairman, there are other appropriations spread throughout this department here to the tune of a total of $325,000, and part of that maybe if I can just clarify that to some degree. What happened as we were developing the proposal we used staff from the various components wit hin this department on an as need basis.

That is why it is hard to definitively say, well, we have hired so many, because once a decision is made to go ahead with the whole thing and we complete the package, at that stage of the game there will be precise money allocated for that, but at the present time, because of the development stage, we used it sort of on a spread-out area wherever we could have people that we needed and could find to work on the program. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Chairman, I was not asking for salaries and staff in the various areas, I was asking where the dollars under Other Expenditur es was allocated and I guess the Minister wou ld be able to identify that if he took some time, $70,000 in licensing is another, some in safety and some more in-w here? Transport, Safety and Regula tion, or Management Services, perhaps. So that would be spread in those appropriations. Could the Min ister indic ate what has been the experience with the single licence plate and also whether he is considering changing back to two-lic ence plate system.

There is a significant saving to the province on that. We had put that in place a couple of years ago. The Member for Assiniboia is shaking his finger here. We take credit for all of the things, not just those that some people thought were popular and some were unpopular. As a matter of fact, the Minister, when he was in Opposition, his Party was saying that this was a very bad move and so on. I have not detected a widespread outcry certainly among the publ ic. Maybe the police have continued to lobby for going back to a two-licence plate system, but I do not think it has had that big an impact with the public.

You see all kinds of different plates now that are put on that in some way express the individuality of the driver within the limits that have been established within the law. I just wanted to ask for a general kind of report from the Minister on his assessment of the success or failure of going to the single licence plate system, and maybe he could also indicate whether there is a plan to have a comp lete change of licence plates in this pr ovince in the near future, or are we going to continue with the plan that the previous Government put in place, which was to slowly replenish the supply and not go 1537

Tuesday, October 3, 1989 with a major purchase which is millions, at least a million dollars dr tnore cost to the provinc e. .:.-··, Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Chai rman, the Member is correct, I was opposed to the deletion of the front licence plate. I assumed that the Government of the Day in their desperation to find money used that as a money saving project where they removed, or allowed the front licence plate to be removed. The enforcement people have raised major concern about the issue.

As the Member well knows, they must have raised it with him at the time when he implemented this and they are still continuing to pressure for that, · especially in view of the fact tha t we have the increased activity in the drinking and driving legislation, that we ha ve th e central informa tion system that is now established across the country in terms of identifying vehicle registrations as well as drivers' _ li,cences, et cetera, that this is actually a bit of a hindrance, knowing full well that the reason or rationale behind this was the cost aspect of it, and I am faced with that as well.

I do not think anybody is very excited about the fact that when you drive down the hig hway nowadays you have a variety of what I call some of them stupid licence plates in front. We have had cases reported to us where the guy has a Manitoba licence plate in the back and he has an old out-of-province licence in the front. Like everybody is having fun with these things. I think for enforcement reasons this is not that good. If the Member says it has sort of died down, it has not necessarily died down that much.

I want to indicate just at this stage of the game, the Member asked wha t are we going to do, are we going to make some changes? I will indicate to him that we are having a look at it at the present time. There is no decision made for or against, wh atever the case may be, and the cost being the big factor. If cost was not such a big factor, I would have no difficulty making that decision, a long time ago already, like that. But certainly we have to look at the cost aspect of it and weigh it against benefits arid whether it is feasible to do it. (Mr.

Edward Helwer, Acting Cha irman, in the Chair) I know other provinces have gone the same route to some degree, and I will just indicate that at the present time without a firm comm itment I am reviewing it. Ironically it should be raised today because I was slated to have a meeting at lunch time to discuss some of the pros and cons of it. So I cannot give any definitive further answer on that, other than th at we are looking at it. I just illustrated some of the concerns we have, both the cost factor plus the inconvenience of not having a licence plate up front. Mr. Plohman: Yes, Mr.

Acting Chairman, I appreciate the cost factor. That is th e only reason it was done. It was not done for any other reason, . and it was done with great reluctance. So it is something obviously that I wanted ·to getf rom the Minister because I knew that he was 'opposed to it When it was b rought in as a lot of people.were in the Government at that time. However, the dollar factor won the day Ori it. It is a question of whether the cost outweighs the problems associated with it, offsets it to such a degree that it is believed that it is not worth ,putting those plates back on again for the cost associated with it.

I would lik e to ask the Minister as well, the question about the rapid exchange system for driver licences. That was something that was underway and then when the National Safety Code came in it was accelerated. As we take credit for the single licence plate for the Member for Assiniboia (Mr .. Mandrake), we also take credit for beginning the process and the start in Manitoba, at least, of the rapid exchange system. So tha t th ere would be an interlock ing sys tem, an automa ted syste m, with all provinces.

Lice nsing jurisdictions would have this information immediately when drivers move from one province to another. If they have lost their licence in another province-I know the Member for Assiniboia is pleased to learn that we are very concerned about this and wanted to eliminate to the extent possible the incidence of people who should not be driving at all, who should not be on the hig hways, because they had proven that they were a danger to the public, were able to get a driver's licence in another province and continue to drive.

That was a major concern, and it has gotten to the stage where this can be prevented to a large extent. Can the Min ister ind icate whether that is fully operational now, and whether in fact the Registrar, without giving names of course, could indicate whether there have been some incidents already where this system has paid dividends for the province in terms of identifying drivers who were trying to beat the system, who were not licensed in other provinces? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Acting Chairman, I would like to indicate, and I am glad that the Member for Dauphin (Mr.

Plohman) is updating .the Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Mandrake) as to the history of the program. I would like to indicate that the program is fully operational at the present time. In fact, I think I indicated early on in my report when we started our Estimates that some of the Ministers had their names and their vehicles put on the system and in 40 seconds flat they got the information. The central distributing, what do we call that, everything goes into Quebec, into that computer system, and to a central switch in Quebec and then into the provinces and back and it is just like that. It is a super dandy program.

There was some discussion prior to us implementing it officially, I suppose. * (1 550) What happens is that drivers, if they lose their driver's licence here in Manitoba, they would skip over to Alberta and get one there. Alberta, for example, has a five year licence, at least they still have. We just talked about some of the examples of what happ ened previously and how this is going to circumvent th at kind of thing, vehicle registration as well, in terms of stolen vehicles, ownership mainly at this stage of the game. I would ju st like to indicate I do not care who started it, we finished it.

It is in process. It is working well and we are pleased. Mr. Plohman: I just . want to certainly in'dicate to the Minister that I am-very pleased to see it implemented 1538

Tuesday, October 3, 1989 and comp leted. Is there any further refinement of it, requirements yet that have to be added to it. Also can the Minister give an es timate of the final cost of implementing that system for the province? Mr. Albert Driedger: The total cost for Manitoba was $1. 8 million. The total program cost $1.8 million, the feds picked up $1.6 million of it, our cost was $40,000 for implementation of it. There must have been some sh rewd dealing going down. The Mem ber asks whether th ere is any mor e refinement of it.

I would like to indicate that the second pha se which is being worked on right now, that is being added to the system and that is to include commercial carrier profiles which is part of the National Safety Code aspect of it. That is the second phase that is being worked on right now. Far back somewhere we are looking at a ph ase 3 which would be basically tied to police information, Canadian Police Information Centre, but that is further back. I do not know wha t time, possibly five years, but certainly the present system is working in place and working well and we are working on phase 2.

So we all feel it is a great accomplish ment. Mr. Plohman: Also, I just want to first of all indicate that the cost sharing was done under the National Safety Code, I would expect, and that is why we are able to ach ieve that kind of federal involvement; otherwise, it probably would not have been that high. It is rather unusual to see that it was ac tually 1.6 of the 1.8 million. I know the sharing formula was not that high.

Ju st for clarification I ask the Minister whether other portions of the implementation of the safety code are that high, a federal percentage, or is it just because this was done first and the money flowed on this aspect of it. So if the Minister could clarify that. The second point, we are on Licensing and under Licensing, the vehicle safety inspections is listed in the Sup plement ary Estimates.

Rather than wait ing for safety, I will ask under this particular section, commercial vehicle safety inspections, whether th ere is now a plan to implement a compuls ory safety inspection for all used cars in this pr ovince? At the present time it is done at random by selection, or Licensing has that -( interjection)- if the Member for Assiniboia would look at his Supplementary Estimates, the last line says under "L icencing, Expected Resu lts: The provisions of commercial vehicle safety inspections to enhance vehicle safety on the provi ncial road system." So clearly this is the appropriation to deal with this.

I wanted to ask the Minister this then as to whether he was planning on implementing it, particularly in view of the GST which the Motor Vehicle Dealers Association of Canada, or perhaps it was in Manitoba, raised in public recently. There would probably be more and more cars sold privately, therefore, without inspection requirements because of this implementation of the GST when it comes in to avoid that tax.

Has the Minister looked at that assertion that was made by the Motor Vehicle Dealers Association, I believe, and has he evaluated that and considered whether that might be a reason to move forward with this legislation that was considered for a number of years? As a matter of fact the Member for Steinbach, Mr. Banman, who was just mentioned by the Minister, recently asked that of me each year, but he did not have the GST to deal with at that time. He did ask me, when I was Minister, whether we planned to implement it. As a matter of fact, the Member for Pembina (Mr.

Orchard), when he was Minister of Highways and Transportation, just prior to the 1981 election had some legislation that was ready to go for proclamation and never did happen. Ju ne, some months before, there was plenty of time actually for him to do it, but it did not happen. He had all of the paperwork printed up and so on, but it just sat on the shelf and so we were approached on numerous occasions to implement that.

Now I ask this Minister whether in fact the pressure, intensity of the lobby is increasing and whether he is almost to the point now of putting forward this proposal or is he seriously considering it now? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Acting Chai rman, I should appeal to you, to the Member that he asked me-I am trying to keep up with all the questions he keeps asking me. Mr. Plohman: Ju st two issues there. Mr.

Albert Driedger: Well, first I am going to get to the last issue, but he asked me fi rst of all as to why the cost sharing was so positive in terms of, and part of, this is the first program that came forward under the National Safety Code and that is why and because the feds really wanted it, that is why we had an ample cost sharing from the feds. Now that I have answered that, next question? I know the question. I find it interesting that my colleague, the Member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard) was the one who basically worked on this inspection aspect, the vehicle inspection thing.

I am sure knowing my colleague from Pembina that in his aggressive manner had he had the opportunity, he would have come through with that legislation. I find it most interesting that the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) having been the Minister for many years must have studied it to death, because obviously the lobby is, not quite to death, because it is still alive and the lobby is -(interjection)- Well, certainly, there was not much direction left in the office for me in terms of how to deal with this one and that is the reason, Mr. Acting Chairman, why I am now studying it.

I have to indicate though, in all sincerity, the lobby is continuing. I had the occasion to meet with my colle ague, the Min ister respo nsible for MPIC (Mr . Cummings), to discuss other aspects of concern. For example, the area of ve hicles that have been written off, how do we identify that? So I have to indicate that we are having discussions with them. We are looking at maybe developing something that would be an 1539

Tuesday, October 3, 1989 acceptable thing and the lobby continues. No decision has been made. Mr. Plohman: The lobby continues, but has the Minister got to the point- just one more question on that, and I know it is a very difficult and touchy issue. I might say though that the Member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard) actually had ample time to implement it, the election was not called till September for October and he had some six or seven months, the form sitting there, to actually proclaim. By the time we got a hold of them they were outdated and would have had to been printed over again anyway.

That is one of the little fiascos that never came out during the MTX affair was all of the money that the Member for Pembina spent on these forms that sat on the shelf. I do not know why that did not come out. Perhaps it did not compare, but it was significant. . The issue of the Autopac write-offs is a very serious one and one that we tried to address with some legislative changes. I understand now that even though, and I have to say in all fairness, the staff were under great pressure to move quickly and come up with some solutions.

Maybe it was not the solutions that they wanted or would have time to think out in their entirety, but now I understand that the amendments that were made to The Hig hwa y Traffic Act to pr ovide for identific ation of the writ e-offs were stated to be unworkable by either Autopac staff or Motor Vehic le staff. I want a better understanding of why they are unworkable and wha t is intended to take their place in the absence of havi ng thi s overall pr ogram of inspection tha t the Minister continues to review. Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr.

Acting Chai rman, one of the blessings of defeating a Government and then taking over some of the things that th ey have had in the mix or even passed, which the previous administration had passed legislation as well, it had been passed I do not know how many times previously, passed and never proclai med, and this legislation is sitting th ere having been passed but not proclaimed. We walked into one like that with The Off- Road Vehic les Act. We finally proclaimed it and we got that one straightened out with much difficulty.

So it makes a person a little gun shy with the legislation that was passed to go runnin g around proclai ming all the se things without having full information. My understanding is that the identification of the vehicles that MPIC has written off, you know, the idea of putting a decal or something like that on the door frame, stamp on the door frame, is something that we are walking through this looking at it. That was one of the reasons that it could be painted over, it could be removed, many things of that nature.

Staff from both MP IC, as well as my department, are having another walk at it and before we will proclaim the legislation, I think we would like to take and see whether we can work out some workable solution to it. * (16 00) Mr. Plohman: Mr. Acting Ch airman, it must be one step at a time very slowly. We used to play that game, one baby step forward and three giant steps backward. Mr. Albert Driedger: If it is going to take me as long as him, I still have five years. The Act ing Chairman (Mr. Helwer): Order. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Acting Chairman, I would at this time turn over the questioning to the Member for Assiniboia (Mr. Mandrake) if he would wish. I would ask one question though about The Off-Road Vehic les Act. Can we ask that under this area, or is it best under Safety or some other section? The Acting Chairman (Mr. Helwer): Safety. Mr. Albert Driedger: Anywhere at all, it does not matter to me. Mr. Plohman: I will let the Member for Assiniboia follow up with some of these important items. He may have another point of view on them. Mr. Mandrake: First of all, Mr.

Acting Chairman , I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this debate, seeing that the Member from Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) raised a multitude of questions. The first one I am going to tackle is the safety of vehicles. In fact, I am going to be introducing a resolution.- (interjection)- The Acting Chairman (Mr. Helwer): Order, the Member for Assiniboia, carry on. Mr. Mandrake: I am sorry, I cannot speak when people are gabbing in this place. I would kindly ask them to be quiet so I can present the question to the Minister so he does not misinterpret what I am saying. The Acting Chairman (Mr.

Helwer): Carry on. An Honourable Member: He will not talk about the white Lincoln anymore. Mr. Mandrake: The Member from Portage la Prairie (Mr. Connery) is trying to be funny, but he is not funny at all, so I am not even going to bother listening to him. Safety of vehicles are paramount in everybody's mind, Mr. Acting Chairman, and I am going to be introducing a resolution in this legislature which will address this issue. I am talking from a professional point of view. I realize that it is a very, very difficult thing to correct.

I think I might have some suggestions to the Minister, thr ough this resolution, which might address th ose areas. I want to go step by step and I will address them as we go along. First of all, when we are talking about Autopac write offs, the most important thing about an Autopac write off is the person who is repairing the vehicle not be a backyard autobody person. Ninety-nine ch ances out of a hundred he does not have the proper equipment. He will just butcher the frame on that car and then put the liv es of Manitobans on the line.

My suggestion, when it comes to an Autopac write off, and par ticularly with the new vehicles with high- 1540

Tuesday, October 3, 1989 strength steel, if the repair person does not know where the hig h-strength steel is located , and ho w - (interjection)- The Member from Pembina (Mr. Orchard) facetiously says it is in the car, and it goes to show you, Mr. Acting Chairman, how intelligent this human being is. He was the Minister of Transport, he should know that the present new vehic les today have high strength steel located only in very strategically located places. If he does not understand that, obviously he did not do his homework when he was the Minister of Transport.

Without further ado, this hig h-str ength steel, if it is not repaired properly to OEM standards, and that is original equipment manufacturers' standards, you are going to be in trouble. So when you repair this vehicle, it should be done by a qualified journeyman autobody repair person, and it is thusly certified as such. If it is done that way, that vehicle will be brought up to OEM standards and th at veh icle -in fact some of the Ministers are probably driving one of those vehicles right now. Those are Autopac write-o ffs that have had frame damage. That is No. 1. The Acting Chairman (Mr.

Helwer): Can we stick to the Licensing there? We are on Licensing, the Salaries on Licensing. Mr. Mandrake: No, the Mem ber from Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) had brought up the safety of vehicles, Mr. Acting Chairman. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Helwer): That is fine. Carry on. Mr. Mandrake: Therefore, if this latitude was provided to the Member from Dauphin (Mr . Plohman), I think it should be provided to me. Okay. Mr. Albert Driedger: You got it. Mr. Mandrake: Now, Mr. Acting Chairman, that is one issue. That is one issue that I will be addressing in my resolution.

The other thing is that when we sell vehicles, be it used or new, it should go through a safety inspection by a qualified and a certified mechanic. On the rear portion of the certificate, it itemizes the various items that it has to have be inspected by a certified mechanic, and also the most important thing is if a person deregisters his vehicle, his own personal vehicle, three months later goes registers it, it should also fall under these conditions. I will just go through that and I will ask the Minister to respond to what I have just brought up. Mr.

Albert Driedger: Some of the points that the Member brings forward bear discussion and thought. I would want to indicate that throug h this whole process, and obviously the Member knows full well just by hearing the previous comments that this thing has been debated for maybe seven, eight years. It is not that easy to establish a resolution to it.

As indicated, certain legislation was passed, not proclaimed 1541 because of the implementation problems with it, and so what we are doing at the present time, together with representatives from MP IC, the Minister as well as myself and my staff are starting to work to see whether we can address this aspect of it. The Member has to understand that we have a lot of people who are dealing cars through the back lane. We are looking at the possibility of establishing some kind of an inspection or safety certificate. At the present time we have an ad hoe system in place where we do some random check ing.

In spite of what we would be debating here today, I can indicate that this debate has taken place many times over, and certainly for staff it is almost like rehashing straw again because each time there is a ch ange of Ministers, their administration, they start from scratch again, enthusiastically saying all the things we should do in terms of vehicle inspections. Then we start getting the full implications of the backlash from some of these things and then you start studying it a little bit more. I am not trying to make light of it. It is a problem area and has to be dealt with somewhere along the line.

We are trying to deal specifically with the Autopac write-offs at this stage of the game and I think that we probably will be maybe coming forward with a resolution to that hopefully within the next couple of months. We are serious about trying to deal with th at. * (1610 ) That ties in again with the vehicle inspection thing, which we do on a random basis now. I personally raise this myself especially where you have Autopac write offs and we should not sell them, maybe we should not sell them. At the same time, some of them do not have any body- not

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-42
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 42.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	133516e23a967bad89360b0edd92beb389ead5c5

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