Manitoba Hansard — 22 May 1991 (Sitting 48, 35th Legislature, 2nd Session)

35-2-48

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Second Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XL No. 48 -1:30 p.m., WEDNESDAY, MAY 22, 1991 Printed by the Office of the Quee ns Printer. Province of Alaniloba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY Thirty-Fifth Leglslature LIB - Liberal; ND - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MclNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

LIB ND ND LIB LIB ND LIB ND PC PC PC PC ND ND PC PC PC LIB PC PC ND ND PC PC ND LIB PC ND PC ND LIB ND PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC ND ND

2359 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, May 22, 1991 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PR ESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mrs . Lo uise Dac quay (Chairman of Committees): Mr. Speaker, the Comm ittee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honou rable memb ers to the

interpretation booth, where we have with us today Theresa Ducharm e an d a group of people representing the People in Equal Participation. I would also like to draw the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon 1 0 visitors from South Dakota. They are under the direction of Kim Janisch. Also this afternoon, from the Sisler High School we have twenty-five Grade 11 students. They are under the direction of Bill Harler. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux).

Also this afternoon, from the Hartney School we have thirty Grades 11 and 12 students. They are under the direction of Jack Forsythe. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Downey). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. • (1 335) ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Manitoba Telephone System Long-Distance Competition Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Sp eaker, my question is to the min ister of Telephones.

In 19 83, 19 84 and 19 85 the New Democratic government, along with ma ny citizens in the provinc e of Ma nitoba, fought a gra ss-roots camp aign to fight for a ma de-i n-Canada telecommunication policy and to stop the then application from CNCP for competition in long distance which had resulted in the United States of there being major increases in local rates in the American market system, where this system was changed years ago. Yet, Mr. Speaker, lately we see the provincial government slowly but surely moving in the comp etitive area.

Its brief before the CR TC committee meetings in Winnipeg stated that they, in fact, endorsed the principle of competition and saw no reason to prevent the introduction of competition on long-distance services, which is really the unscrambling of the telecommunications omelette in this province. Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister is: What advice did he have from his Telephone System about the effects of long-d istance competition? What action is his government taking to preserve the made-in -Canada telecommunication policy in this province? Hon.

Glen Flndlay (Minister responslble for the administration of The Manitoba Telephone Act): Mr. Speaker, clearly what is going on in Canada is a made-in-Canada telephone policy. The recent applic ation by Unitel to CR TC to supply long-distance competition in seven provinces of the country-Manitoba not included at this time-is an application that is desirable by the citizens of the country of Canada. Mr. Speaker, I want to tell the member that our approach to the hearing here in the province of Manitoba was, we are not opposed to competition provided it is open, fair, on a level playing field and

2360 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 1991 maintains the contribution to local service that is traditionally in place for telephone long-distance rates, to keep the local rates low and affordable for all Manitobans.

We are taking the position of standing up for Manitobans, give them all the services they want at affordable rates and give them the luxury of a choice of services which they want and which, I want to tell the members of this House, is strongly supported by the vast majority of people who came to those hearings, including the Consumers' Association of Manitoba and the Consumers' Association of Canada. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, I would table a document in the House today which is a submission to the MTS Board of Directors by the former chief executive officer outlining that the annual revenues that are at stake if competition does succeed in the province is $1 56 million, that many jobs could potentially be impacted. Long-term goals, i.e., rural telephone services, could be neg atively im pac ted. Employment could be negativ ely impacted. The majority of MTS customers would experience higher local rates.

I would ask the minister: Given the information that was prepared by his own Telephone System, is it the ideology of the Conservative government that is driving us to Americanize our telecommunication system, or is it on the basis of the best interest of Manitobans for fair and decent telecommunication systems in the province of Manitoba? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, for exactly the reasons the member gave, we requested and stated in our submission that all long-distance carriers must contribute to local service at the existing rate of contribution-a t the existing rate.

The degree of subsidy, if you want to use that word, will be maintained in the future regardless of who the carrier is. We were adamant in that position and that covers off all the bases that the member mentioned from anybody in MTS. I want to tell the member that in the last three years we reduced long-distance rates by some 50 percent. Yet the total revenue coming in from long distance has actually increased, showing the pent-up dema nd to use the service. We have reduced rates and increased revenues. We were demanding that the contribution remain the same regardless of who the carrier is. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, I would again quote the document which recommends strongly against competition in the long-distance area. It says, we should have the provincial government, "Put Mr. Rogers on the defensive. Make it the constant and consistent message that nine out of ten Canadians are going to be asked to bankroll his corporate strategy. Explain that when he reaches into the phone companies' long distance purse, he will be picking the ordinary users' pocket." That is the advice that this minister and this government received for their own Telephone System, the experts in the telecommunication system.

I would ask the minister where he thinks he can go different than the total American system which is double the local rates as the long-distance rates have gone down? * (1 340) Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, long-distance rates have come down for users of Manitoba because we have applied for those reductions. We have applied for those reductions because we were forced to in some sense because, in matter of fact, competition is already occurring in Canada, because when Bell Canada lowers their rates calling into the province, if we do not lower our rates going out, we lose some business.

We have been reducing rates, but, Mr. Speaker, the rate of use of the system escalated, so that the total revenue coming in has actually increased. We have a made-in-C anada policy, and it will protect the local rates because we are demanding that the contribution remain as is at present for any carriers in the future, whether it be Telecom Canada or any other supplier of long-distance service. We covered all the bases for a made-in-Canada telecommunications policy. Pines Project Funding Cancellation Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows) : Today a stop-work order was placed on Rotary Pines since the zoning agreement which is almost two years old has not been signed and the developer did not have the proper zoning variance. Since the City of Winnipeg has effectively terminated this project on that site, will the Minister of Housing immediately cancel project development funding for the Rotary Pines?

May 22, 1991 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MANITOBA 2361 Hon. Jim Ernst {Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, if the City of Winnipeg-and I stress that "ir -has terminated development rights on that site, obviously the project will not go ahead. Seniors RentalStart Program Funding Reallocatlon Mr. Doug Martindale {Burrows): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is also for the Minister of Housing. Will the Minister of Housing now do the right thing and reallocate $4.7 million to one or more of the other Seniors RentalStart applicants, Neepawa Elks, Flin Flon Rotary, Transcona Legion or Charleswood-Tuxedo Lions? Hon.

Jim Ernst {Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, we have been through those issues time and time and time again. I will be happy to go through them again with the member during the Estimates process. Nlvervllle Application Mr. Doug Martindale {Burrows): Will the Minister of Housing explain to this House how the decision was made to fund the Niverville seniors applicant when all the other applicants were told there was no money left in that funding portfolio, and since the minister is quoted and his staff are quoted as saying, there was only one other applicant, Mr. Roy Lev?

How did Niverville find out the money was there? Hon. Jim Ernst {Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, I am beginning to think that the member for Burrows is opposed to senior citize ns' development projects. Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated previously, I will be happy to go through every single project with the member during the Estimates process. Manitoba Telephone System Oz Pedde Salary Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, when the Premier came to office three years ago, he promised an open and honest government, and we all looked forward to that.

In light of that commitment on the part of the Premier, would he now provide us with a clear example of that open and honest government and tell the people of the province of Manitoba, the owners of the Manitoba Telephone System, what the president of the Manitoba Telephone System will be paid? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the president of the Manitoba Telephone System is being paid a compensation, a salary that is within the range that has been set by the Crown Corporations Council, as was recommended by the former minister of the Telephone System, and I have some quotes on the record.

The memb er for Concordia (Mr. Doer), when he was minister, said that adequate compensation ought to be provided for those heads of Crown corporations. Yesterday, when I was asked the question in the hallway, I had to determine whether or not there were any confidentiality requirements within the agreement that was signed by the president and the Mani toba Telephone Syste m.

I ha ve since determined that there were no such confidentiality agreements contained, and so I am happy to say that he is being paid the same salary as is being paid the president of Man itoba Public Insurance Corporation, which is $1 50,000 . • (1 345) Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, we have heard over and over again from the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) that these are tough economic times which would warrant very low or no increases to vast numb ers of civil servants in the Province of Manitoba.

Can the First Minister of this province explain why the new president of MTS will get 15 .4 percent more than the past president of MTS? Mr. Fllmon: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that the new president of MTS is getting less money than he was getting in the private sector, even at the $1 50,000. He is taking a reduction in salary in recognition of these difficult economic times. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, we are, in fact, funding a po sition. We are not fu nding, presumably, just individuals. Almost every single member of this House has taken a drop in income to become a member of this House.

Either this individual wants this job or he does not. What led to this First Minister giving a 15 .4 percent increase when his Finance minister is telling everybody 2 percent or zero? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, that is why it is quite obvious that the mem ber has never been involved in the private sector. There is a range for every job

2362 LEGIS LATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 1991 an d every job within an y- even within the government, our deputy ministers are not all paid ex actly the same money. It depends on qualifications and their competitive advantage for the position. This is an individual who was being paid considerably more in the private sector and therefore began at that point in the range which is the same point in the range as the president of the Manitoba Telephone System. There is a range for the position. He is getting a salary within that range.

It is exactly the same salary as is being paid the president of MPIC, and that is exactly what it is, which is less than what he was being paid in the private sector. 4-HClubs Programs Funding Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, in last month's budget, 4-H clubs across this province were devastated by the government's decision to remove the services imme diately and completely of all program assistants in this province and withdraw all of the services-some 39 individuals involved.

There was no preplanning and no preplanning amongst the staff to decide who was going to pick up this work, just a callous and arbitrary decision by this minister with no consultation with the public or with the people involved. It came at the worst possible time, at a time when 4-H clubs were in the middle of preparing for their rallies and for their achievement nights across this province.

Can the Minister of Agriculture justify to this House how he could recommend such a callous de cision, particularly recomme nding such a decision be made at a most critical time in the 4-H year for 4-H clubs across this province? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, the 4-H program is very good for rural Manitoba and the youth of rural Manitoba. Years ago, there were about 10,000 4-H members. The program was delivered by people hired by this department. The ag reps and the home economists deliver the program in conjunction with leaders. Right now we are down to 5,000 4-H members.

We have about 2,000 leaders, so volunteerism is still very active. We have a lot of leaders for the number of students who are in 4-H, and the staff, the ag reps and the home economists can deliver that program. The assistants who were hired were deemed to be unnecessary in the future in order to deliver that program, that the existing staff in the Department of Agriculture and the volunteerism of the leaders can and will deliver that program. I acknowledge that it hit at a critical time.

We have offered back to the staff to hire additional people to see us through this cycle which ends in May and June of this year, so that we can get on with delivering the program as it used to be, by volunteers working with the De partmen t of Agriculture staff. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that over 600 concerned rural Manitobans have signed petitions-and I wish to table a copy of those petitions here today. These are 4-H members, parents and concerned citizens, leaders who are involved in the 4-H movement from Ste. Rose, Rorketon, Ste .

Ama lie, Eddystone, Alonsa, Waterhen, Ashern, Mccreary and other lakeshore communities where 4-H clubs exist at the present time. Will the minister reconsider this ill-conceived decision that was put In place immediately to do away with the 4-H program assistance and begin immediately to undo the tremendous damage that he has caused to the 4-H movement in this province by way of his arbitrary decision? Mr. Findlay: Mr. Speaker, we are maintaining services to 4-H through some $75,000 a year for conferences for leaders and for students.

We are supporting 4-H members through 4-H camps through an additional $20,000 a year, and I will tell the mem ber we are looking at other techniques by which we can continue to support the actual students in 4-H in some other fashion in the future, so we are contributing directly to those students being involved. *

(1350) Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that the 4-H movement promotes the development of active, healthy young people with positive ideals of citizenship who become, many of them, the leaders of tomorrow, I would ask the minister how he could violate so completely the 4-H pledge which is a pledge to clear thinking, to greater loyalty, to greater service? Where does he find any of those ideals in this decision that this minister made? Mr. Findlay: I want to remind the member very clearly that 4-H program delivery has not been interrupted one iota. It has not been interrupted. The staff of the Department of Agriculture are still

May 22, 1991 LEGIS LATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2363 there delivering the program-some nine full-time staff, plus 39 ag reps, plus some 18 home economists, plus all the leaders who are out there. That is the program delivery theme, and that is still in place and being done. The 4-H cleanup of the highways has just been done for another year, supported by the Department of Highways, so the program delivery of 4-H has not been interrupted one iota. We have saved some costs, and in the future we will do some additional things to directly assist 4-H members in the 4-H program. CFB Shllo Future Status Mr.

Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier. On May 6, I raised the concern in this House about the possible closure of Shilo. I raised it at that time with the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Stefanson) because there are over 1,000 jobs involved. Now apparently Shilo has been identified as one of seven bases that might be closed. Mr.

Speaker, I understand the Premier met with the Honourable Joe Clark on May 11, the Minister of Federal- Provin cial Affa irs, and I wonder, therefore, if the Premier can advise the House whether he raised the issue with the Honourable Joe Clark and whether he received any assurances from Mr. Clark regarding the future of the base. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I raised it as one of many areas of concern to the province of Manitoba of areas that we felt, in terms of fairness of treatment, that the federal government ought to be giving consideration to. Mr.

Leonard Evans: I thank the Premier for that information. CFB Shllo All-Party Committee Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I wonder if the Premier and the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism, in particular, would be prepared to take action now to get ahead of this question, to organize the commun ity and to organize an all-par ty delegation, including municipal officials, to go to Ottawa to do whatever we can to lobby about the future of the base, to get ahead of the issue rather than reacting after a negative announcement. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, certa inly representatives from our department have been in contact with federal representatives and with representatives out at the base. I have drafted a lettertothe honourable federal minister responsible, Marcel Masse. Certainly we will be taking all initiatives to ensure that there are no detrimental effects to the base at Shilo and, clearly, it is a priority. We also see that our federal counterparts are obviously involved.

I see quotes from the member of Parliament for the area who has brought the issue up with his federal counterparts and is receiving assurances that there will be no detrimental impacts. Clearly, I do concur with the member that we will be proactive. We will be putting forth Manitoba's concerns and making sure that they are well represented. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether I heard all of the honourable minister's answer because of some other noise in the House. I gather the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism does have some information on this.

I asked the minister specifically if he is prepared to organize a delegation at the appropriate time to ensure that the Shilo base remains intact in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, if at the appropriate time we deem that is necessary, we will certainly undertake to do that. "( 1 355) Core Area Initia tive Renewal Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Urban Affairs. We need a road map or to play 20 questions to figure out this government's position on renewal of the Core Area Initiative.

First the minister tells us that the subject would be on last Friday's agenda. Now we find out that it was not on the agenda. It was only given a very cursory conversation by the three parties involved. Last week the minister told us he was interested in renewal. Today we learn that he is not interested in the renewal. Will he make some sense out of the confusion and give us a straight answer? Is this government in favour of renewal of the Core Area Initiative or is it not? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, perhaps my eyesight is failing me. I did not recognize the honourable memb er for

2364 LEGISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 1991 Crescentwood atthe meeting last Friday when I met with the mayor and the Honourable Jake Epp. The question deals with what happens after the current Core Area Initiative agreement expires and what happens to many of the vital programs that are necessary for the core area of the city of Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, we are working diligently toward that end to determine, in fact, what can be done, given the limited resources that all levels of government have in this country, what we can do and what are the highest priorities with which to deal.

We are pursuing that goal. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, we understand that it takes three willing partners to come up with a deal. We in this House can only question the Minister of Urban Affairs responsible to the government of Manitoba. Would the minister please tell the House what his priorities are for renewal of the tripartite arrangement for the inner city of Winnipeg. Is it an Urban Native Strategy? Is it housing? It is north Main Street? Could he please give us a clue what position he is taking to the table? Mr. Ernst: Mr.

Speaker, there are a host of issues that are of concern to the people of the inner city of Winnipeg. There are a host of concerns that we as a government are attempting to pursue. Until we determine what level of support is going to be available to pursue these options and then have to prioritize those, I do not wish to offer priorities at this point until we can see what is available totally and what we can deal with in the overall context of a tripartite agreement. Core Area Initiative Urban Native Issues Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr.

Speaker, with a final supplemen tary to the Mi nister responsible for Northern and Native Affairs, we have heard this government talk about an Urban Native Strategy now for a number of years, only lip service, no action-ze ro. Has the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs had any discussion with his counterparts at the city or at the federal government to make sure that urban Native issues are a part of any renewal of the Core Area Agreement? Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Yes, Mr. Speaker. Provlnlcal Parks Beach Patrols Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): Mr.

Speaker, this past long weekend thousands of Manitobans travelled to our provincial parks to enjoy the outdoors. However, because of this government's cutbacks in Natural Resources, services which Manitobans have taken for granted for years have been slashed. My question is for the Minister of Natural Resources. With thousands of people and children using our parks and beaches, how can this minister justify the elimination of services such as beach patrol and other park services which supply safety and service in our parks and beaches? Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr.

Speaker, I can firstly inform honourable members of the House that visitation to the provincial parks this past long weekend was just about double what it was last year. I further would like to compliment the general public because, althou gh the weekend someti me s presents problems for my staff in terms of rowdyism in the parks, that was not the case. We had, in fact, a very acceptable level of activity throughout our park system. Mr. Speaker, the honourable member makes reference to a particular reduction of service, and that is in the beach patrols.

Members may recall, and I want to be somewhat cautious, because a former Premier, former Leader of the party, is taking my department to court on the issue, but it was an inquest decision that pointed out that having beach patrols on our many large swimming areas in the natural state could, in effect, contribute to a false sense of security inasmuch as that they were not lifeguards. Other jurisdictions have experienced the same thing. It was a policy decision not to have beach patrols in our park system, other than in the one specific area, densely used area, of Grand Beach and at Falcon, Mr. Speaker. *

(1400) Department of Natural Resources Fleld Survey Layoffs Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, 56 field survey people in Water Resources were informed that they would be laid off for 13 weeks from December 27 to April 1.

May 22, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MANITOBA 2365 I want to ask this minister: Who will perform the duties that these 56 survey people carried on during the winter months? Who will perform these duties? Hon. Harr y Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Sp eaker, I would ask the honourable member to consider carefully the level of capital available for construction with respect to water services department. He will note that their reduction is substantial over the years. Ten years ago, it was still in the realm of $12 million to $14 million. The last few years, it is running in the realm of $3 million.

This year it is $2 million. It is obvious that there is not the level of work being carried out. We have tried, although that department did contribute substantially to the overall reduction in my department, but in the staggered layoffs that the member refers to, we at least provide nine months of work for as many people as we can under the circumstances. Mr. Cllf Evans: With these layoffs from December until April, can the minister tell this House what effects these layoffs will have on the Washow Bay Project in the Interlake? Mr. Enns: Mr.

Speaker, the honourable member knows that I do not avoid answering any of these questions, but these are the kinds of specific questions that really are suitable for discussion in the more informal atmosphere of Estima tes debates. I would remind the honourable member that it is my understanding my Estimates are coming right up behind the ones that we are currently considering, the Minister of Northern Affairs' (Mr. Downey). I would be happy to answer this and any other question with respect to specific projects. Department of Energy and Mines American Purchases Mr.

George Hlckes (Point Douglas): Earlier this session it took a press conference by two of my colleagues to convince the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns) to stop using American post offices to mail government mail. Now the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) has authorized purchases of equipment in North Dakota rather than from a Manitoba firm. Does the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism approve of this policy, and if he does, how does this policy help our slumping economy? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, I am not so sure that the honourable member was correct in his

preamble in terms of suggesting that the Minister of Energy and Mines authorized that particular purchase that he refers to, but I certainly would stand here proud in terms of the record of our government in terms of promoting the economy of Manitoba. Government Departments American Purchases Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): To the same minister, how many other departments are now purchasing items from the United States rather than in Manitoba? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, none that I am aware of at this particular point in time, and if the honourable member has some specific information that he is aware of that he is prepared to share, I would be more than pleased to receive it. Conawapa Dam Project American Tenders Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): To the Minister of Energy and Mines, how much of the $5-plus billion of that Conawapa project does the minister expect to go for equipment manufactured in the United States? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr.

Speaker, I may tell the member for Point Douglas that construction will not start until about 19 94, and not a single tender has been let. It is far too early to tell who will get those tenders and where they will be issued. Employment Programs Government Initi atives Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism as well. The Conference Board has been predicting for some time that Manitoba would be last out of the recession. Today the Conference Board indicated that we would certainly be last out of the recession.

In fact, we have seen a continuing slide in our economic performance, and the Conference Board now is predicting almost doubling the decline over its original predictions. My question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism. The Conference Board is predicting

2366 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 1991 a further 10,000 jobs lost in the province of Manitoba. My question is: Where is this minister going to tell people in Manitoba they can find employment after the next year? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, unfortunately, as seems to be the pattern all too often, I have to correct the member for Flin Ron in terms of his

preamble. They are the party that continually put up their hands and called 10 out of 10, and 10 out of 10, as a result of Conference Board of Canada publications some time ago. Now that same Conference Board, once again, does not show Manitoba as being tenth out of 10. It shows us, I believe, being tied for about sixth. It shows a province like British Columbia now being behind Manitoba. It shows a province like Ontario being tied with Manitoba, Saskatchewan being tied with Manitoba.

While Manitoba's position relative to the rest of Canada has improved, once again we see the usual doom and gloom from the honourable member for Flin Flon. Soclal Assistance Budget Allocation Mr. Jerry Storie (Flln Flon): Mr. Speaker, the minister is looking very far into his crystal ball. In 1991, it is going to be the worst performance in the country. Not only is unem ployment going to continue to increase, but the retail trade is going to continue to decline. My question is to the Minister of Rnance. The Minister of Finance this year is budgeting $30 million in welfare.

Given an additional 10,000 people unemployed in the province of Manitoba, how much is the province going to budget additionally for welfare payments in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I will, just in answer, correct some figures that the member has put on the record. The increase in the budget was $30 million to $279 million. With that base of facts, I am prepared then to listen to the next question. Mr. Storie: My apologies to the Minister of Rnance. The increase was $30 million.

The only growth industry in the province is people being unemployed and going onto welfare. My question is, contrary to the budget 's predictions, this minister's budget predictions of a month and a half ago, the economy continues to slide. How much additional money is this minister going to budgetforwelfare payments in the province of Manitoba because there is no economy in the province? Mr. Manness: I cannot help but recall the Minister of Finance from Ontario.

One of his first assertions, one of his first public presentations; was that the increase in the unemployment rolls in Ontario had jumped by a quarter of a million people in a short period of time. As I look at the numbers-the forecast, by the way, of the Conference Board, which is one of the seven forecasters that we use, shows for instance that agriculture still has a significant impact on the economic growth in this province. I say to members that this crop is off to a good start.

It is too soon to predict it being in the bin, but the reality is, I expect that these numbers will do nothing but improve over the course of the next year. Again, as the member, my colleague, has pointed out, the company that we share sixth place with includes the province of Ontario, a manufacturing -as far as growth potential-On tario, another large manufacturing province just as ourselves. Urban Native Strategy Government Position Mr.

James Carr (Crescentwood): Well, we are pleased that at long last the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs has begun consultations with the City of Winnipeg and the Government of Canada on an Urban Native Strategy. Can the minister tell us with whom he has held his discussions from the Government of Canada and from the City of Winnipeg, and what position did he take to the table on behalf of this government? Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, unlike the previous administration, we place the urban Native situation of this province as a very important priority, and I have indicated the support for work in that area by funds put in the last two budgets as it relates to the Urban Native Strategy. Meetings have been held with the Native leadership in Winnipeg. They have been held with the City of Winnipeg, and they have been held with the federal government. • {1410)

May 22, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2367 Progress Report Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Can the mini ster report progress as a result of those consultations? How much money is the Province of Manitoba prepared to put into its Urban Native Strategy? What is the timetable that is being launched by the government, and when can we expect some formal announcements? Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Again, there are many questions there, and those kinds of detailed questions would be more appropriately asked at Estimates time which are now before the Legislature.

We sat last night. That would have been an opportunity for questions of that nature. I further add, Mr. Speaker, that the numbers he refers to, I believe, were something like $200,000 in each of the first two budgets that were presented by this government in the Urban Native Strategy of which we have seen some progress, not as much as we would have liked. As I said, we are working with the Native leadership and with the municipal council of Winnipeg and the federal government to try and bring forward some of the solutions that are necessary to improve the lifestyles of the urban Native population.

Urban Native Strategy Government Commitment Mr. James Carr (Crescentwood): Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary question is for the Premier. We seem to have a number of negotiations going on here. We have the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs talking to Native leadership, the Government of Canada and the City of Winnipeg. We have the Minister of Urban Affairs talking to the City of Winnipeg and the Government of Canada about urban Native issues. Can the Premier tell us, what is the policy of his government? How does he plan to renew any kind of tripartite arrangement?

How muc h is his government prepared to commit to the process? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, as always, we will be working co-operatively. There are many ministers involved with the various federal-provincial-municipal negotiations that take place. When we meet with the Urban Affairs comm ittee of cabinet, it has several ministers involved. When we have the official delegation with the City of Winnipeg, there are often ministers from various departments who have an interest in common with the city on particular projects or initiatives at the moment.

Similarly, when we are negotiating with the federal government, we will often have a committee of four or five ministers involved in the negotiations as they may cover a whole range of issues. That is why there would be more than one minister involved. We will work co-operatively amongst our various departments and disciplines and with the two levels of government to attempt to arrive at a strategy that fills and serves the needs of the urban Native population in Winnipeg, because we believe it is an area that has long been neglected by the previous administration and deserves our care and attention.

The Pas, Manitoba Carrot River Bridge Replacement Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Highways. As the minister is aware, a consultant's report has condemned the Carrot River bridge in The Pas. The bridge is now closed to the public. Since the bridge is the only link between The Pas district farmers, trappers and many other groups in the land in the Saskeram area, I want to ask this minister when his department will be announcing plans to replace or reconstruct the bridges recommended in the report that he has had for several weeks now? Hon.

Albert Drledger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, let me first of all indicate to the member that the bridge across the Carrot River is not provincial responsibility. It is the responsibility of the Local Government District of Consol. However, yesterday, I had the privilege, together with the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs and the Minister of Natural Resources, to meet with the council and discuss the report that has come forward which basically recommends that the bridge not be used.

I believe it is my understanding that the council who has the authority over the bridge is closing that bridge. Mr. Lathlln: Since the bridge meets the design guidelines for the Rural Municipal Bridge Assistance Program, Mr. Speaker, and the reconstruction of the bridge is the most economical solution, as the report suggests, why does this mi nister not ma ke reconstruction of the bridge a top priority? Mr. Drledger: Mr. Speaker, five years ago, when that bridge was buil t-a nd the previous

2368 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 22, 1991 administration helped with the funding of it at the time, which was an unprecedented type of funding that took place-over $300,000 was spent. Now the bridge is condemned and closed. It is for that reason that we had consultants-- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable minister, to finish his response. Mr. Drledger: Based on the problems that were developing with that bridge, my department agreed to cost-share a consultant's study on it, and that study came forward and recommended that the bridge not be used.

It is not the jurisdiction of the provincial government to construct a bridge. However, we have talked, together with my colleagues, with the council. They will be requesting a further consultant's study to see whether some interim measure can be undertaken to see whether something can be done to salvage a very, very poorly constructed project. Mr. Lathlln: Mr. Speaker, my final question is again to the Minister of Highways and Transportation. I have asked a lot of questions in this Chamber, since I have come here, about the North.

Does the minister accept the need for replacement of the bridge, or is he going to say a flat no again to the people of The Pas? Mr. Drledger: Mr. Speaker, I am very disappointed in that kind of a question, because the member should be well aware that we have just finished doing a brand new construction of a bridge at Bakers Narrows. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable minister, to finish his response. Mr. Drledger: Mr. Speaker, however, I want to indicate to the member that I do not deny the fact that there is a need for the bridge.

The only problem there is is that it is not within the provincial jurisdiction to build it. However, we will continue to consult with the council out there, together with my colleagues, to see whether we can help alleviate a big problem out there. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: I would like to draw the attention of honourable members to the loge to my left where we have with us this afternoon, Mr. Mark Minenko, the former member for Seven Oaks. On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. Nonpolltlcal Statements Mr.

Gerry McAlplne (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, do I have leave to make - a nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? An Honourable Member: Leave. Mr. McAlplne: Mr. Speaker, it is a great pleasure for me to be able to rise today to recognize the success of a number of young people who have made a commitmen t of their time and talent becoming better students and serving the ir communities. Mr.

Speaker, Sturgeon Creek Regional Secondary School has, over a number of years, been a leader in development of youth and especially of the students of whom I speak today. Recently, at a national cheerleading competition in Edmonton, our own Sturgeon Creek cheerleaders placed second in this competition. I share with you the students who have successfully achieved this great task.

Their names are Linda Laser, Melanie Quennell, Elana Wiggins, Katie Wiggins, Pam Redmond, Sherry Fuller, Laurie McKechnie, Candy Muzylouski, Amber Hayden, Joy Latell, Stacey Dowse, Shelley Ross, Marianne Manness , Shannon Chartrand, Cheri Keller, Judy Lawrence, Holly Turton, Patti O'Brien, Bobbie Mclean. The advisers and staff who assisted with this competition were Ruth Hallonquist, Marilyn Bayrak, Ellen Jensen, Marny Barnes and Kim Viglance.

I would also ask all members in the House to help me to congratulate all members of Sturgeon Creek Regional Secondary School who have been able to achieve this greatness along with the staff. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to recognize two other former students of Sturgeon Creek Regional Secondary School, who have achieved outstanding academic achievements here among 29 graduating students at the University of Manitoba, who will be recognized when they receive the university gold medal at the University of Manitoba's spring convocation.

University gold medals are awarded for highest a�ademic standing in an undergraduate

May 22, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MAN ITOBA 2369 degree program. The required minimum grade point average is at least 3.3 out of a possible 4. I would like the memb ers here to help me congratulate Vaughn Timothy Betz, a former student of Sturgeon Creek Regional Secondary School, and Bernadette Josephine Demong, also a student of Sturgeon Creek. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Glen Flndlay (Minister of Agrlculture): May I have leave for a brief nonpolitical statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? (Agreed) Mr. Flndlay: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to rise atthis occasion to pay tribute to a couple of young Manitobans, Trevor Kidd from Dugald and Pat Falloon from Foxwarren, Manitoba, who are members of the Memorial Cup champions Spokane Chiefs, who won the Memorial Cup this past weekend. Those two young individuals from Manitoba are the only two members on the team from Manitoba. Both of those members played on the world junior championship team for Canada a few months ago in Saskatoon. I would like to pay tribute to those two young Manitobans, one from my present constituency, one from my former constituency.

I wish them well in their future careers in hockey . • (1 420) ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I would like you to call the Bills under Debate on Second Readings, beginning with Bill 38, followed by Bill 43, and then followed by the bills in order starting at the top of the page, that being Bills 5, 6, 8, 12 and moving down to Bill 45. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable government House leader. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Biii 38-The Wlldllfe Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Enns), Bill 38, The Wildlife Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la conservation de la faune, standing in the name of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). Stand? Is there leave that this matter remain standing? Leave? Agreed. Biii 43-The Workers Compensation Amendment Act

(2) Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik), Bill 43, The Workers Compensation Amendment Act (2); Loi no 2 modifiant la

Loi sur les accidents du travail, standing in the name of the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton). Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to speak on this bill, the first of two Workers Compensation Amendment Acts. Although it is listed as number (2), it is the first one to have been introduced in this House. We will soon, as the Order Paper has indicated, be dealing with another bill, this being the more straightforward bill.

I want to indicate from the start this bill is really in keeping with the practice of this House, the tradition of this House, of periodically updating the benefits going to injured workers and their families to reflect the increased cost of living. I want to indicate on this particular bill, Mr. Speaker, that we certainly support the principle as we did the previous bill, as we did the many bills that were brought in by our ministers. On this particular bill, we will certainly support it in principle.

In terms of the bill that will be coming up, and I do not intend to anticipate the debate on that, but I do want to indicate that there may very well be a different story. My understanding of the other bills is that this is the minor bill, that the other bill, while it may have some positive factors to it, will not include a number of items that we would like to see in terms of changes and will bring in some changes that we will consider negative. As I indicated, I will not be addressing that in my comments today, Mr.

Speaker, but I did want to make it clear to those who might perhaps be confused by the existence of the two bills on the Order Paper, which one of those bills we are going to be supporting and which one we will be having concerns about. I might also add, Mr. Speaker, that it is my understanding that the subsequent bill we will be dealing with will include indexing on a permanent basis for benefits to injured workers and their families. We will not have to have bills such as this

2370 LEG ISLATIVE AS SEMBL Y OF MANITOBA May 22, 1991 in the future. I wanted to mention that, because I believe that is the route we should be going. I am speaking in the context of this bill, Mr. Speaker, because this bill really is an ad hoe approach. I am not saying it has not been the approach in the past. It, indeed, has been the approach in the past. There has not been indexing on a fixed basis. I think that is unfortunate, because indeed we should be dealing with that on a regular basis.

In fact, it was interesting to note just only a few days ago, a tribute was paid to a widow in this province who had been fighting back since 19 47 originally, fought through the Douglas Campbell period and the Duff Roblin period for indexation of widows' benefits. It is very interesting to reflect on the fact that at the time that she started this fight with members of the Legislature, there had been people who had received widows' benefits going back to 19 23, who, in the year 19 47 when she began her fight, had not received any increase in benefits.

They were told at that time that this was the insurance principle. The insurance principle, Mr. Speaker, was that one received benefits based on the amount of the benefit in that particular year, but that there would not be any indexation. That may indeed have been the principles in terms of insurance to some extent, but we all know the world in which we live in. This particular pioneer in this area pointed out the major difference in the cost of living between 19 23 and 19 47 when she began the fight. We have seen over the years how that has increased even more dramatically.

This past year alone we have seen cost-of-living increases of 6.1 percent and 6.2 percent on an annualized basis, particularly since the beginning of this year with the introduction of the GST. Without indexation, what we see is that people fall further and further behind. That is not something that I think any government can allow to happen, whether it be in this area or other areas. I do not want to get into a debate on other areas, but I would point, for example, to the concerns that we have expressed on the 55-Plus program.

The principle of indexation has been taken away in that particular area and that affects individuals, vulnerable individuals, seniors in that particular case who are going to have their benefits reduced over what they might have been and should have been if the government had followed through on the program that was announced in 19 86, 19 87, which was clearly indexed. I find it somewhat inconsistent that we are dealing, in this particular case, with something I agree with, indexation of Workers Compensation benefits, but we are not dealing with in other areas, in particular the 55-Plus program.

There are other examples in government where individuals, relying on fixed incomes, are not receiving those types of increases. We have even seen, in terms of social allowances that, while the government initially talked about having a cost-of-living increase, we have in fact seen quite the opposite when one looks at the changes that have been brought in, reductions in benefits for emplo yable individuals outside of municipal areas, for students, et cetera. (Mrs.

Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) So not only are we seeing in other areas the fact that people are not having indexed benefits, we are in fact in some cases seeing that they are being reduced. They are being reduced over what the same individual would have received in a previous year, and while we are certainly in difficult times-and we saw a further example of that today with the release of the Conf e rence Boar d figures-the latest projections which show that we have a worsened projection in Manitoba.

While nobody disputes that, Madam Deputy Speaker, the real question has to be asked: Who should be bearing the burden? We do not believe it should be people on fixed incomes, whether it be injured workers and their families; or survivor benefits paid to widows and orphaned children; whether it be in terms of family allowance recipients, social allowance recipients; whether it be in terms of the seniors, as my colleague the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos) has so eloquently pointed to in Question Period after Question Period.

The real question has to be, if there is going to be a burden-and in difficult economic times there most certainly is a burden to be paid-t he bottom line is that we must make sure that it is not at the expense of those who can least afford that type of burden. I want to say, Madam Deputy Speaker, that while we certainly agree with the principle, in this one particular case, notthe principle followed in the other examples I mentioned, it does not go far enough. I

May 22, 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2371 look to the upcoming bill to deal with the clear inadequacies of a single bill that deals only with beneficial, because there are a number of areas that need to be included as well. One thing we need is an increase in the rate on which benefits are calculated that has not been increased in recent years.

What I am finding is that many people, particularly in my constituency, in northern communities, many industrial workers are finding that they face a severe drop in income when they go on compensation because much of their income is not counted toward calculation of the benefits. So it is no good just to index benefits if you do not index the ceiling as well. If you do not reflect the fact that the cost of living has increased and salaries have been increased as part of that, and that the bottom line is you need to move both up.

Because, if you do not, what you do is you end up with some individuals benefitting from indexing, but many not benefitting from the indexing. • (1 430) I do not think it is fair, in a world of 5 percent and 6 percent inflation not to have those levels increased to a more realistic level, and I will point to the example of many people in my community, miners.

Believe you me, Madam Deputy Speaker, having had the opportunity to work briefly underground at lnco, and work in other areas of the plant at lnco, people often misunderstand the type of work that people do and the salaries that they are paid, because a lot of times people react to the salaries and bonuses that miners receive and do not look at the still somewhat dangerous conditions-th ey are less dangerous than they were a number of years ago. They do not look at other factors, including the degree of physical and mental effort that is involved.

As I said, I have the greatest respect for people who have made mining their life's work, and I worked with many individuals at lnco, who were classic examples, who did receive a fair amount of remuneration in terms of their basic salary and bonuses, but who worked very, very hard for that. The problem with the Workers Compensation system is that much of that income has not been reflected, certainly in recent years, because of that ceiling.

That is why I am saying, Madam Deputy Speaker, that we have to increase the ceiling in terms of earnings as well as increase the basis of the pensions and other payment s going to individuals who are on workers compensation. I might add as well, Madam Deputy Speaker, that it is some 1 0 ye ars now since I did work underground at lnco. I have seen the impact it has had on the people I worked with. At this particular time-a nd I hope the member from Portage (Mr. Connery) would listen.

I realize he may not have had the experience of working underground, but if he was to talk to the people who have worked underground, and even compare 1 O ye ars -(interjection)- I asked the mem ber-he says he has been underground, I said if he worked underground. I have been underground since on a number of occasions. I had the op portunity to work underground, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I was raising the experience, and also the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Rndlay) may not have had that experience as well, of people I worked with 10 years ago and where they are today.

The bottom line is that many of them are no longer working underground. I would say out of the crew that I worked with, nearly 50 percent have, at some point in time, either been on compensation for a fairly lengthy period of several months or are permanently on compensation at this point in time. I look back on those individuals, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the tremendous burden that they have faced, personally, physically, medically, over these past number of years, and also financially.

I point to the fact that the benefits we are dealing with here really have not reflected, for those individuals, the type of earning that they were faced with before. That is one of the weaknesses of this approach of simply indexing the benefits without looking at the overall ceiling on which those benefits are calculated. It has had a tremendous burden on those individuals. I am not saying, Madam Deputy Speaker, that workers compensation can protect all individuals in terms of their earning power, but I do believe that we need a higher base from which to deal with those earnings.

I just ask people to look at the burden it has had on those individuals. I point to my own experience. I also worked surface at lnco, and I know that there are a number of people on surface who have gone through a similar situation, although it has been more accentuated underground for a number of reasons: Because of the greater danger that is involved; the greater physical exertion

2372 LEGISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA May 22, 19 91 involved; and also because un derground traditionally has received a higher degree of remuneration because of the bonus system, which has not been fully reflected by the Workers Compe nsation Board in terms of workers compensation paid to those individuals. That is my experience. As I said, I worked briefly underground. There are many people who worked a lot longer than I have, and I am not making myself out to be a career miner by any stretch of the im agina tion. I ha d the fortune of working underground with those individuals.

I must say, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I considered it to be probably the best education that I could ever have received.

No ma tter what schooling I have received, I learned as much if not more from working with individuals such as I did underground and elsewhere at lnco, in terms of understanding the work that they put in, the pride that many people take in their work, given the chance, and the consequences, too, of a hazardous environment, of an en vironmen t in which injuries are still unfortunately not uncommon, an environment under which individuals often find they are unable to work the full 30-35 years that many other individuals would expect to put into the work force.

Many people I have known, who worked underground, have been lucky to get 20 years or 25 years. We are a long way away from a pension system that allows, as it does in some other countries, for early retirement for particularly hazardous industries, for industries where people do face physical consequences far greater than in other industries. We are a long way from that.

I know one of the bigger issues in Thompson, in terms of negotiations with lnco, has been to get early retirement, to get a 25 years and out arrangement in the contract that would reflect the fact that, unfortunately, many people, after they have worked for a considerable period of time, are unable to work in a similar sort of occupation for physical reasons, whether it be from White Hands or back problems or specific injuries.

I want to point to that, Madam Deputy Speaker, because in a lot of cases this is another one of the weaknesses in terms of the kind of benefits that are paid to injured workers and their families. The weakness is the fact that it does not reflect the full degree of occupational-related conditions and limitations that may indeed be a contributing factor in conjunction with other congenital conditions. It does not reflect the overall impact of that.

I am concerned about that, Madam Deputy Speaker, because I know there have been some reports that there may be changes in terms of Workers Compensation that would downplay even further the consideration of those contributing factors that lead to disabilities, that lead to people being unable to continue their employment. I am concerned about that. We will deal with that in the subsequent bill, but the key thing I am pointing to here is the situation many people find themselves in, something that is not adequately dealt with by simply indexing the awards.

I point, for example-I go back to my own personal experience again-to individuals who have been subsequently assigned to what is often called "light duty. n My ex perience and the experience of many people who have been in that sort of situation is that there is no such thing as light duty. There may be lighter duty, but you run into the difficulty in which even the most basic task-a lot of times light e r duty is con sidered jani torial work-req uires a fair amount of exertion.

You have individuals who have major back problems, who have major problems in terms of leg conditions, other problems, White Hands, et cetera. They still cannot fully function in the workplace under a light duty environment, and that is not reflected in the type of benefits that people are dealt with and the kind of pressures they are placed on. Another problem that arises, Madam Deputy Speaker, is in terms of rehabilitation.

We have a situation whereby we have a rehabilitation program, in fact it was brought in largely by the New Democratic Party government in response to a number of re ports that ind icated where the weaknesses were in the area of rehabilitation, but there are still weaknesses. There are people who are being forced, and I can point to a specific case.

Someone in my own constituency was basically forced to relocate to Winnipeg for a training program, took the training program, was unable to find employment with that training program and, unless that individual was able to obtain a franchise which would have cost him $50,000-$50,000 he did not have-he moved back to Thompson, tried to obtain work in Thompson through this training program he had received and now is being pressured on a continuous basis to obtain work that does not exist.

May 22, 1991 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2373 This once again is not dealt with by this type of carte blanche improvement in terms of benefits, because this individual is being threatened in terms of the loss of the benefits he receives. It is a very unfortunate situation because that individual was placed in the training program by Workers Compensation after being told that it was only essentially a temporary measure, and that they would look at something else more significant. One example.

I can point to many other case examples that point to the weakness of current legislation in terms of Workers Compensation, individuals who have had two and three and four medical reports who are unable to obtain compensation, unable to have their claims recognized because one doctor has that medical opinion, contrary to those three or four doctors. Recommendations were made by the Legislative Review Committee that would have dealt with that, a number of recommendations, but I do not see this, once again, in this particular bill dealing with some of the fundamental difficulties in terms of Workers Compensation.

There are many other weaknesses. I find on an almost daily basis, I have individuals who are coming to me with those problems deal ing specifically with benefits. I spoke to an individual who has been on compensation for many years, who now lives in British Columbia, a good friend of mine recently returned to Thompson for the firsttime in five years. • (1 440) He is in the situation where currently under the benefit structure that exists, he is having his CPP benefits taken off his compensation.

He said, well, that may be fairly reasonable in terms of that, but he also has a dependent child and the supplementary benefits. I hope the minister will look into this because I really believe that this is a very legitimate situation. The supplementary benefits are being withdrawn, are being take n off his Workers Compen sation benefits. The supplemen tary benefits are for a dependent child, Madam Deputy Speaker. I can understand shifting of income in terms of CPP.

That is built into the act, but in terms of supplementary benefits-and I hope the minister responsible for Labour will look into this because I do believe that the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik), the Mi nister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board could deal with this in terms of legislation. Even with this bill, I would say that it would not cost the Workers Compensation Board very much money. It is a rather unique sort of situation in the sense that many people receiving CPP do not, obviously, have dependent children.

My view is that this is, once again, the type of situation that has not been dealt with in this particular bill. I hope the Minister responsible for Workers Compensation will listen carefully to my comments, if at all, and address some of these concerns. This, by the way, could be dealt with as part of this bill. It does not even have to wait for the omnibus bill because it is a specific case in terms of benefits, a specific example. I am prepared to provide the minister with examples of that. I know the member for Transcona (Mr.

Reid) will be outlining some specific examples that he has run into related to benefits, related to pension plan contributions that he has run into in dealing with constituents in his area. I know the member for Transcona deals on a regular basis with Workers Comp ensation claims. It is a very im portant concern in the constituency of Transcona, many railway workers, many other individuals. I really hope the minister will listen to those types of concerns.

I indicated before the example of an individual who is receiving CPP and finds that not only is his CPP deducted from his Workers Compensation benefits, but also the supplemen tary CPP allowance for a dependant child is being deducted as well. That individual is not questioning the deduction of CPP- An Honourable Member: Currently? Mr. Ashton: Currently, and I hope that the minister will include this in terms of either this bill or omnibus pension. An Honourable Member: That is not the case currently. That should not be the case currently. Mr. Ashton: That is indeed happening.

I am prepared to share the name of the individual and some of the details on it, this individual I had spoken to this weekend. He expressed specific concerns, and I appreciate the- because a lot of these issues are not political issues. A lot of these issues are not partisan issues. A lot of these issues are strictly a matter of getting some sense into a system that is trying to do its best.

2374 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA May 22, 19 91 The Workers Compensation system indeed has many dedicated employees but, at times, can be strangled by red tape, by archaic legislation and regulations that can often avoid giving the kind of fair treatment that individuals want.

I want to say that in the 1 0 years that I have been a member of this Legislature dealin g with individuals, in the last several years in which I have been Workers Compensation critic for the New Dem ocratic Party, I have never seen such frustration as the frustration expressed by individuals who are fighting compensation-related issues. I am sure that many other individuals in this House on all sides have to deal with that level of frustration. When I say level of frustration, I am talking about an immense sense of hopelessness and helplessness in many cases.

I have had individuals come to me who have been told by virtually everyone, the worker's advisor, their own doctor-I had a case just recently of a woman. I read through the documentary evidence. To my mind, there was no question that she was en titled to workers compensation but she was denied at the appeal level, the review level. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am sure there are many others in this House in the same set of circumstances, many other mem bers of the Legislature dealing with constituents on a regular basis. The sad

part is that too often our agenda in terms of Workers Compensation is driven by larger contexts, contexts of rates-I notice the minister has included that in terms of his current review-the context of the bottom line. How can you say to someone who has run into this type of what they feel is injustice, how can you look them straight in the eyes and say that, well, we have to look at budgetary concerns? We have to have more competitive rates. How can you introduce such a bottom line when the interests of injured workers and their families are involved?

That is what I am arguing, and I will be arguing on this bill and other bills. I am not saying the Workers Compensation Board should not have a financial plan. I am definitely not saying that the Workers Compe nsation Board should not cost out the impact of policy changes. One of the weaknesses not only of this government or the previous government, but all governments, has been a tendency to make changes without accurately estimating the cost. I am not saying not to make those changes. What I am saying is that the Compensation Board has to be looking at its future in that sense.

It should not be on the one hand trying to artificially lower rates, or on the other hand bring in policy changes that lead to significant increases in benefits that are not costed in, in terms of the rates. All governments have been guilty of that to a greater or lesser extent. The Lyon government froze rates artificially.

Even in the Pawley government, of which I was a member, rates did increase fairly significantly but probably not as much as they needed to, first of all, to compensate for the artificially low rates during the Lyon period and, second of all, pay for some of the new programs and benefits, the rehabilitation program, many other programs. That is the weakness of all governments. What I am saying is the solution to that is proper costing, proper planning, not artificially cutting off individual workers compe nsation recipients.

I look at this bill and I do see some encouragement in that in a world in which there are some tough times, in a province in which this Conservative government has been looking at singling out certain groups, whether it be seniors on 55-Plus, or social allowance recipients, where either freezes or decreases-t he one principle of this bill that I am glad to see is the fact that they are continuing with a process of indexing on a more or less regular basis. That is positive, and I will reiterate for the minister the bottom line that we will support the government when it does that.

But let not this government take our position on this bill as indicating that we will be providing similar support for other changes, because we are hearing all sorts of proposals that are being di scussed in terms of workers compensation that, not only do not go far enough to improve workers compensation, but could in our opinion severely restrict the benefits going to injured workers and their families. Shifts- the minister has announced this in terms of the gross-net formulation. I have taken the time to check on the impact that might have.

That might wipe out for many workers the increased benefits they will be receiving as a result of this bill. Individuals may be sitting down, Madam Deputy

May 22, 19 91 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 2375 Speaker, calculating how much they think they are going to get in a way of an increase to compensate for the cost of living, but I can tell you that the same principle that is being espoused by the minister has introduced-s ome individuals on a lower level of benefits will receive the increased benefits, and certainly I would support that. Many individuals on as low as a $1 4,000-a-year level, not high level in terms of income, in terms of compensation, will receive decreased benefits.

By my calculations we will see decreases of as much as $2,000 and $3,000 for individuals in the $25,000 to $30,000 and $35,000 bracket. That indeed is the case, that is the income level of many of the people in the mining industry, many industrial areas. It is not a high income any more. It is not an exorbitant income. Those individuals are going to be faced with a $2,000 or $3,000 cut if changes are made of this nature.

That is far greater in the way of a cut than the minister is bringing in in terms of this indexing, because the benefit to someone who is indexed, Madam Deputy Speaker, is probably going to be less than the changes that we are going to see here. The net result of changing the formula on which income is calculated is going to leave people worse off. * (1 450) We will never support any Conservative government that brings in an item of legislation, that brings in changes to Workers Compensation that will result in decreased benefits for injured workers and their families. We will not support that principle.

I do say that I recognize that the government has at least had the courtesy of separating out this particular bill to allow for a more speedy passage. That is because, I think, they know they are going to have a great deal of opposition on certain provisions on the type of changes that they have already announced that they will be making to Workers Compe nsation in this session of the Legislature.

They know that if there are going to be rollbacks in benefits to injured workers and their families, if there are going to be cuts to those injured workers, what we will be doing is we will be fighting those cuts in this Legislature. We will not in any way, shape or form support a bill that, regardless of whatever positive features it may have, results in losses to injured workers.

It would have placed workers compe nsation recipients in a very difficult position, and our caucus, because if they had included the principle of this bill in the overall bill we would have been faced with a positive principle that would have been drowned out by the more negative principles that we have seen as being announced by the minister as being in consideration in terms of that bill. Given the current situation of the session, as we stand here today, May 22, as we are still very early on in terms of this session. This is the 48th day of this particular session.

We could, indeed, be here, dare I say-certainly we are here well into June, Madam Deputy Speaker, we could be here end of July. From my experience in this Legislature, we could be here into August. We could be here until September, and this would have resulted in this particular benefit being delayed into July and August and September, when the intent of this minister is to increase the pensions effective July 1.

I want to say that we may be here a considerable period of time, and knowing the ability of this government to bring in bills that it feels are noncontroversial and turn out to be rather major, and we will see in terms of The City of Winnipeg Act on boundaries and, indee d, The Worker s Compensation Act and a number of other bills, we may be here; but I want to indicate to the minister and to the government that long before the session ends, whenever that may be, long before the July 1 deadline that the min ister is seeking for this indexation of pension benefits, we will pass this through.

I want to indicate even further that we are prepared to have this bill go to committee on an expedited basis. In fact, I would say that we are prepared to pass this within a matter of days. The only reason that we are not in a position to pass it today, Madam Deputy Speaker, is that there are many other items of business. There are going to be a number of bills introduced tomorrow and Friday. The member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) will be speaking on this particular bill probably right after myself.

We have other members of our caucus who also wish to address that, but I want to suggest to the minister that we could possibly be looking at passing this bill as early as next week and, certainly, no later than the week after. We want to make sure the minister has plenty of time not only to have the bill passed so that it is implemented on a particular date, but to be able to alert Workers Comp ensation to increase the benefits. I realize July 1 is the target date, but I assume the minister would like to have some

2376 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANIT OBA May 22, 19 91 leeway, some time, to be able to make sure that those benefits are passed on immediately, that the payroll staff at Workers Compensation will do it. I want to indicate that on this particular bill, there will be absolute co-operation from our side, and we have no intention of speaking beyond this bill beyond perhaps the next week or so. In fact, if we did not have other items of business Thursday and Friday, we probably could even finish the debate on that as early as this week. Since there is some time available, I think we may see that passed next Thursday or Friday. So I want to deal with the basic points in

summary, Madam Deputy Speaker. First of all is the fact we have no problem with the basic principle of the bill in the sense of indexing benefits. We would go further and, in terms of the upcoming bill, we would ask the minister to ensure that there is long-term indexation of benefits on a statutory basis, on a permanent basis and, I might add, indexation reflects the full increase in the cost of living, not a formula that provides partial indexation. We feel that if inflation is 6 percent, that injured workers should receive an increase of their Workers Compensation benefits of 6 percent.

Businesses that are paying the rates are passing on price increases of that 6 percent. By definition, that is inflation. Consumers are paying the extra 6 percent. We feel that injured workers should be treated in exactly that same way. So I want to indicate, we want to go further. Beyond that, beyond the ad hoe indexation, beyond the complete indexation of benefits that we want to see on a statutory basis, I want to stress once again that we would like to see improvements in terms of the ceiling levels for workers that also indexes the formula, if you like, on which benefits are calculated.

We want to ensure also that formula is not tampered with in such a way that individuals will receive significant cuts in benefits that will more than balance out this particular level. I will finish by saying that we will be giving the Workers Compensation bills, the two of the bills, in this session full and complete scrutiny. We have scrutinized this particular bill. We see no problems with it.

We will pass this one expeditiously but there will be, I am sure, from what we understand on upcoming legislation, a full and extensive debate, because we are very concerned about some of the directions the minister has been taken in. I still hold out some hope that the minister will show an open mind on this, will listen to the concerns that have already been expressed by injured workers and their families, been expressed by the labour mo ve men t and progressive employers, because it is not a case of strictly management versus union in many cases.

The bottom line is those concerns have already been expressed, and I would hope that the.m inister would consider taking some time and effort to properly consult on proposed changes of any kind. I realize there has been a full discussion process the last number of years, but what we are concerned about is a cherry picking, if you like, picking certain items out of the legislative review committee process that has taken place over the last number of years, produce d many excell ent recommendations.

We do not want to see certain items selected, certain items rejected, and other items brought in which were not part of the recommendations of that committee. By the way, most of those recommendations were unanimous, the em ployer representative, the employee representative and the neutral chair in tha t particular case. In fact, one of those individuals, Tom Farrell, now works for the Department of Labour, as a former constituent of mine, and provided very excellent approach to that. There is a lot that can be done in Workers Compen sation to improve the system.

Those individuals are facing the frustration on a daily basis of dealing with an archaic system. Members of the Legislature are dealing with those cases on a regular basis, cases that involve real people having real and serious problems.

I believe if we put aside some of the bottom line concerns, if we look at this in just a straight human dimension, if we recognize in many cases their problems can only be solved by changes in legislation, we can develop a far more humane Workers Compensation system that will not increase rates dramatically for businesses but will provide far greater benefits and protection to injured workers and their families, surviving benefits for spouses and surviving children, because those are the people who rely on us as legislators to come up with a fair system.

I mentioned before, the woman who in 19 47 started a 20-year fight to get indexation of benefits. It is that tradition we are continuing today. I salute her, and I salute the efforts and the many people she worked with, many widows who gathered together •

May 22, 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA 2377 in that time, in 19 4 7. I hope in 19 91 we can effectively finish at least the one element of their battle by permanently indexing in legislation benefits, something this bill does not, unfortunately, do but, Madam Deputy Speaker, a bill that goes one step towards doing that. Thank you once again, and thanks to members of the Legislature for listening to the concerns of injured workers and their families on this very important issue. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) * (1 500) Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak on Bill 43, The Workers Compensation Amendment Act (2). The speaker prior to myself, the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), has raised many good and vali d point s concerning this bill an d other amendments that should have been included with this bill and many other issues that relate to The Workers Compensation Act, the deficiencies that are in the act as it exists presently. I have many concerns dealing with workers compensation because, I must say, the bulk of my workload as an MLA in my constituency of Transcona is workers compensation related.

That causes me great concern because there are people who are injured on the job through no fault of their own and who have had to suffer as a result of deficiencies in The Workers Compensation Act. It is not only these workers, Mr. Speaker, who have suffered, but their families as well because they have been negatively impacted upon the income for the family as a result of these policies of Workers Compensation. The bill itself, Bill 43, goes somewhat towards improvement of the position for these injured workers and their families.

Of course, it raises the level of income for them on average approximately 9.5 percent. This rate has not been raised for a number of years, Mr. Speaker, and in no way compensates for the cost of living that these families have had to endure over the years due to their level of income being frozen. That is unfortunate because the costs for these families has continued to escalate and they have no recourse other than to cut back on the things immediately within their control and that is food. Their other expenses remain uncontrollable.

Their utilities continue to increase and escalate with the cost of living, and these people of course have had to cut back on areas such as food, as I just mentioned. The purchasing power of these families of course, while their wages are frozen over this period of time, puts them in an awkward position. They have to make very difficult decisions on what they are going to cut back on. Of course, the family suffers through these difficult times.

In most cases it is the breadwinner of the family who has been injured on the job, and most of the cases that I have dealt with in my constituency of Transcona, have been the sole source of income for the families. These families have had their incomes frozen at the levels that do not meet the needs of the family, Mr. Speaker.

This bill will assist in some way, and as the previous speaker has indicated, we are pleased that there is some direction change here that will allow for this increase and will allow for the quick passage of this bill so that these families can receive what they are entitled to and what should have been received a long time ago. The previous speaker also talked about cases of light duty. In my previous emp loyment, before having the honour and privilege of coming to this House to represent the people of Transcona, I was aware of a great many cases involving Workers Compensation with my previous employer.

Of course, there were many occasions there where light duty came into discussion. A lot of these employees, once they were injured, were contacted by the company and were requested to return to work on light duty. A lot of these people of course did not at the time choose to go through their doctor's advice, and did return. On several occasions that I am aware of these people re-injured themselves and of course placed themselves in greater jeopardy, and therefore their families as well. These people would return to work and would sort nuts and bolts or do other office-related duties.

Of course, after a short period of time, conditions of the workplace dictating, these employees would then be requested through the management structure of the company to return to more normal or more active duties, quite often against the good wishes or advice of their doctors. This is one of the problems I have with people returning for light duties. This is one of the areas that the Workers Compensation Board has to be

2378 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 19 91 very diligent in ensuring that these people are protected and their health is in no way jeopardized. We have seen, through the constituency office in Transcona where we deal with a great number of Workers Compensation-related cases, long-term disability people, partial and permanent disability people coming into the office, complaining about the Workers Compensation Board pressuring them to return to work.

These people, of course-and I am going to in a few moments get to a couple of cases and speak very specifically about them-are put in a position where their benefits are going to be terminated unless they actively go out and seek work. -(in terjection)-and that, Mr. Speaker, contrary to what the honourable member for Portage is saying, is that these people have, through the advice of their physicians and in most cases specialists, been consulting on a regular basis, and many of them have gone through surgery, back surgery, which is a very serious operation.

Even these types of people are being pressured to return to the workplace prior to their full recovery which would enable them to either go for retraining -(in terjection)-they are, I can assure you because I have the records right here on this desk right now. -(interjection)- Come and read it. Mr. Speaker, the member for Portage (Mr. Connery), of course, used to be the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board, and he takes some exception to the remarks that I am making here.

I offer to the minister that if he was still the minister I would allow him to read the files on these people who would verify the statements I am making here in this House today. Of course, maybe he is somewhat sensitive, since he was the minister and that there were no major changes undertaken at that time while he was minister. There is usually room for improvement in most programs and the member for Portage has stated that he has made some improvements to the program while he was there.

There may have been some changes, I will give him credit for that, but unfortunately they did not go far enough to rectifying the major problems that still exist in the Workers Compensation area to this day. We have specific situations, Mr. Speaker, where the Workers Compensation Board doctors, their so-called specialists, are in a position where they are able to override the expert medical statements that are being made by specialists in the specific field where the injured workers are seeking attention.

Quite often, we have had to battle with the Workers Compensation Board and ask the specific exper tise that these Workers Compensation Board doctors have that would allow them to override the decisions and the statements made by the specialists, particula rly back specialists. Where an injured worker's doctor has recommended specific types of treatment or periods of time for recovery, the Workers Compensation Board has questioned the advice and the consultation that these specialists have given to the injured workers.

Quite often, when we are dealing with Workers Compensation and we communicate with the office, which unfortunately is a centralized office, it makes it difficult for the people in the community to communicate with that office on a personal basis. We seek outfiles after receiving permission from the people seeking our advice and assistance in the community, and we have to wait several days and sometimes weeks, Mr. Speaker, before we are able to retrieve any information from the files, even though we have clearance forthat information.

That is unfortunate because these people, of course, by the time they call us, are usually in a very desperate situation because they have had their source of income terminated by the Workers Compensation Board, without prior consultation I might add. I talked a minute ago about the centralization of the offices.

The Workers Compensation Board, of course, is located in the central area of Winnipeg, but if you happen to be an injured worker and you wish to communicate in person with that office, you have to find some way of making your own way down to that office. * (1 51 0) I think, personally speaking, from what I have seen in my own community, it might be more advantag eous if there were com munity-based offices that will allow people to access the Workers Compensation Board so they can deal directly on a face-to-face basis with the people who work in these offices.

I should, of course, also recognize that in the Compensation Board there are a great number of people who perform a very excellent service. I have dealt with a great number of people who have been very co-operative but, unfortunately, through the deficiencies of the system, they are unable to assist me in the manner in which they would like and which I would like to see. Therefore, I would say that,

May 22, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANIT O BA 2379 through the majority of the employees on the Workers Compensation Board, this process has evolved through no fault of their own. In this Bill 43, where we are talking about changes to The Workers Compen sation Act, there are improvements in the monies that are paid to the injured workers. It is unfortunate that the strong need to index the Workers Compensation benefits was not recognized a long time ago. Right now we see a system that allows the level of incomes to be eroded for these workers and their families.

I think it is important, and I draw it to the minister's attention, that we should bring changes to The Workers Compensation Act that will allow for indexation of the benefits. I hope that the minister will move in that direction. The injured workers and their families in this province will also be pleased, if the minister does move in that direction to index. The minister indicates that there may be some changes coming in that direction and, if they are good changes, then I can assure the minister that we will look towards supporting any programs that will assist the workers in this area.

An Honourable Member: You just endorsed the bill there, Daryl. Mr. Reid: No, I did not endorse the bill carte blanche. I do not do things like that. We will look at all facets of the bill. -(i nterjection)- No, we would not do that. There are several areas, and I will talk more specifically now about the cases, very difficult cases, in the constituency of Transcona that I have had to deal with over the last seven or eight months that I have been in office.

In one parti cular case, the Workers Compensation Board had made arrangements for an individ ua l to achieve retraining, ma de allowances, made contact with an employer, and set up the process where the injured worker could return to an alternate employment for retraining. This injured worker returned to this job with the restrictions that were agreed to. During the course of this time, the worker returning to the new job and the emp loyer had struck an agreement.

The agreemen t was that the two parties would exchange, by gentlemen's agreement, pieces of equipment that each had in their possession, which each owned and no longer had a use for. These parties had no agreement in writing. They agreed to exchange these within a short period of time with no monies being exchanged, because the two items were deemed to have similar value.

What we have seen since is that the equipment that was exchanged-one party since sold a piece of their equipment to pay a portion of their MPIC time payment, and the other party then decided that they did not want to go ahead with the exchanges of items, after they had already taken place and was mutually agreed to, and asked for the original piece of equipment back. That was the employer who asked for the equipment back. The employer then contacted the Workers Compensation Board who, in turn, questioned the two parties that were involved.

In the meantime, the employer withheld salaries from the individual who was working for him that had been arranged for by Workers Compensation. The employer, upon withholding salaries, of course, created some animosity between himself and the em ployee. The emp loyee then contacted the Workers Compensation Board who, in their own discretion, decided that the employer was in the right and that they should withhold the monies there. That is when one of my constituents, the employee, decided he was going to contact me to find out if this was proper action and was within the mandate of the Workers Compensation Board.

The Workers Compensation Board, after contact with us, is still adamant that they are correct in their position. We have made communications with the minister responsible, and we hope that he will resolve this. The Workers Compensation Board has indicated they are going to withhold the fees that they would normally pay the employer, and they would deduct it from the wages that the employee would normally be making. This, I believe, Mr. Speaker, is a civil matter and should be best dealt with through Small Claims Court or through other courts.

The Workers Compensation Board should in no way be involved in matters of civil litigation. I hope that the minister, when his officials bring this to his attention, will deal with this matter swiftly because this individual is now having his level of income impacted negatively. It is going to affect his family and the way he is able to provide for his family. I have another case in the commu nity of Transcona, a Workers Compensation case, where the individual was working with the major employer

2380 LEG ISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MANITOBA May 22, 19 91 in the community of Transcona, had sustained a back injury and had been off under a doctor's care and was collecting Workers Compensation benefits. This employee, of course under the doctor's care, eventually went for back surgery and was in the process of recovering from his back surgery. Being the industrious individual that he was, he decided to seek out retraining and did not wait for the Workers Compensation Board to approach him that would allow him to return to a more normal or more active work life .

He commun icated with Workers Compen sation and expressed his interest in returning and going through the retraining process, because he would have been unable to return to his normal employment. Then the individual waited many months, did not receive a response from the Workers Compensation Board and decided to seek out retraining on his own initiative. He applied to the University of Winnipeg to enter a business computing course. The individual was successful in entering the course and has proceeded through one year and a half of retraining.

In the meantime, during that year and a half, the person involved had received correspondence from Workers Compensation indicating that he was eligible for retraining and that they were going to pursue retraining for him. This individual decided he was going to contact Workers Compensation to make them aware that he had already started retraining and had received several credits towards his degree already. That is where the argument came in, Mr.

Speaker, because it put the individual in a position where he would like to recover the monies that he felt were due and owing to him since he had, through his own initiative, started retraining and felt that the Workers Compensation Board should have, in some way, been responsible for paying the normal costs that would have been involved. The individual contacted Workers Compensation with this request and was, of course, rejected.

They felt that his time that he had spent at university was not time that was spent to the best advantage of the Workers Compensation Board and, of course, they balked at paying him for that period of time. When that happened, the constituent approached my office and spoke with me about this matter and asked me to get personally involved so that we may resolve this issue. During that period of time, we have had meetings with the supervisor of vocational rehabilitation for Workers Compensation.

Although the meetings were somewhat heated and nonco-operative from Workers Compensation's point of view, we did come to an understanding atthe conclusion of the meeting that we would contact the University of Winnipeg and let them determine whether or not the retraining that was undertaken by the individual was an adequate process and would be considered normal for anyone attending university. We received information back from the University of Winnip eg, from the director of business computing, that stated that the speed or the progress of the individual through the university retraining program was adequate.

It would be in the individual's best interest that if he continued at that rate of progress, he would conclude his retraining within the specified period of time that the Workers Compensation Board had laid out. He could expect to be reasonably assured of being successful through the retraining process, and that he would come out of that with a degree that would allow him to move towards early reintegration into the workplace. * (1 520) We are awaiting a response from the Workers Compe nsation Board at this time.

The Compe nsation Board-t hey were somewhat reluctant to listen to the advice that others were giving to them. They appear to have a bunker mentality about them, that when there are any problems in there, that only they know best on how to solve these problems. That is unfortunate because I do not think these people, nor anyone for that matter, have all of the answers. We, at that time, requested from the WCB that they listen to reason.

This individual had attempted, through his personal efforts, to try and save the WCB money by entering a retraining program at the earliest opportune date instead of waiting another six to eight months that the individual would have had to wait had he waited for the WCB to take the initiative to enter him in a retraining program. I think that is a waste of taxpayers' dollars, Mr. Speaker, and it is unfortunate the WCB decided to take that direction. The constituent of whom I am talking, of course, Mr.

Speaker, is still continuing through the retraining program and will, hopefully, be successful, and I am sure will be successful in achieving his degree at the end of the retraining period. Of course, there is an opportunity and there have been some thoughts

May 22, 19 91 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MANITOBA 2381 towards re-employment for this individual, and he has been watching the job market to ensure that the job opportunities will be there for him. I take my hat off to this individual for the efforts that he has made and the initiative that he has taken. That is one of the cases where I think tha t the Worke rs Compe nsation Board should be pleased that individuals do take that initiative and do not wait for the department to take the necessary steps. I have no problem, Mr. Speaker, with the honourable member for Portage (Mr.

Connery) reading any statements that I made about Workers Compensation because, as I have indicated to him earlier in my corn ments, I have the facts here in front of me and, had he been the minister, of course, I would be quite willing to share these with him. Unfortunately though for him, I have opted to share these facts with the new minister, and hopefully the new minister will take the necessary steps to solve these problems. There are other cases in the community, Mr. Speaker, and I could talk, I am sure, hours on the number of cases that I have had to deal with in the comm unity.

In one other particular case, the individual was working at a manufacturing plant in the eastern portion of the city and had been injured on the job, had gone on Workers Compensation benefits and, of course, during that period of time, had been approached by the employer and the Workers Compensation Board to return to work on light duty. The individual, after returning to work after a short period of time, was reinjured on the job. Now this put the person in greater jeopardy as far as his health is concerned. This person has since gone for back surgery, very serious back surgery, I might add.

I have had the pleasure of working with this person for a number of months. Not only did he have back surgery, but he required specialized equipment, which we were successful in locating for the individual and that he was able to utilize. Unfortunately, this person was back and forth between the Workers Compensation Board and reintegration into the work force to his regular employment. Then after a period of time, he could no longer walk, Mr. Speaker, because of the back problem, even after surgery. He had difficulty standing on his feet for a long period of time.

This individual should have been given the opportunity to retrain and, to the best of my knowledge, never was given the opportunity to retrain. The Compensation Board, of course, gave him a great deal of difficulty, being that he was a long-term compensation case, much as I have seen with many of the other compen sation cases in the commun ity of Transcona. It seems to be the long-te rm cases that the WCB is very intent on eradicating. From my experience, I have seen this to be so.

This individual, of course, now is in a position where he is fearful of even having his elected representatives involved to assist in resolving this matter, for fear of having his benefits terminated. It is unfortunate it has progressed to this point because these people should not have the fear of the system that is there and is supposed to be working for them and on their behalf. In one other matter, one other case, the individual was working at another employer and the employer, through the course of her employment, was injured on the job. She had a finger that was cut off.

This person went through a very traumatic process of recovery. Not all people recover from their injuries and not all injuries are purely physical. The re are psychological periods of recovery as well. This person to whom I am referring had difficulty psychologically recovering from her injury and was cut off from her benefits by WCB. She had to seek the assistance of my office to allow her to be put back on a program that would allow her to retrain but to have continuance, continuity of income.

It is unfortunate these people have to seek out the assistance of their elected representatives to help them resolve matters to deal with a system that was supposed to be in place to assist them in the first place. There seems to be an underlying suspicion between the injured workers and the WCB and the employers and the WCB, and that has been my experience through my years of working. One party does not seem to trust the other. The employers, of course, through very valid reasons, want the employees to return to work.

The employees do not want to return to work until their recovery is full and complete and with just cause. I agree with that. Workers Compensation should be in the middle there to mediate the two and to ensure the recovery is complete and thatthe employer does not pressure these employees, in any way, to return to normal employment. • (1 530) There are many, many other areas with respect to Workers Compensation cases that we can refer

2382 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA May 22, 19 91 to. It is unfortunate that we have progressed to the point where we have to call upon the minister to bring in some changes to The Work ers Compensation Act to improve it on behalf of the injured workers of this province. As we have indicated earlier, the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) as well as myself in my previous remarks, the fees that are paid to the injured workers are going to be increased and we congratulate the minister for that. It should have maybe happened a bit sooner than what it has.

We also call upon the minister to ensure that there is indexation of the benefits in the future and that the minister will bring that back to the House in his next piece of legislation, I believe due to come to the House some time within the next week or so.

It talks in Bill 43 about changes and when they are due to come into effect and that by passage of this bill and when it is fixed by proclamation due to take effect on July 1 of this year-the honourable member for Thompson has indicated, and I concur with the statement of the honourable member for Thompson, that with the changes that are proposed in this act we will support the changes that are indicated in this bill, and with the comments I have put on the record here today pertaining to the deficiencies that still ex ist in the Workers Compensation system, that those compensation deficiencies will be erased.

Of course, the indexation is a major one because -(in terjection)- I will have to get my dictionary out for that one, Mr. Speaker. Maybe after 21 years of experience in the House, I will learn all these big words. I only come from a normal working family, though. An Honourable Member: I do not think you have to worry, Daryl. You just worry about the next year or so. Mr. Reid: Well, the memb ers opposite, Mr. Speaker, like to joke about my time that I will have in this House. Of course, I can assure them that I will do everything in my power to ensure that I remain here for a long time.

Transcona is a very strong, very tight-knit family community, Mr. Speaker, and I like to think of myself as a family person and represent the interests of the family community. Of course, Mr. Speaker, New Democrats have always indicated, and have always gone on record as stating that they are interested in the programs that will support the families in this province, like Workers Compensation, that will go a long way towards supporting the programs that the families need.

Of course, the communities like Hartney- the members in the gallery are from Hartney-t hat they, too, have needs for the same social programs that we have been striving to bring changes and improvements to in this province, and a lot of them the New Democratic Party has initiated in this province and this country. I hope that the members opposite will recognize that and, when they have their opportunity to stand up and speak, they will put those statemen ts on record supporting the programs that we have initiated. I am not holding my breath on that, Mr.

Speaker, of course, because I know the philosophy of the party opposite. The Workers Compensation Board, Mr. Speaker, in my dealings with them over the seven or eight months that I have been in office, have caused a great deal of frustration in trying to deal with the concerns of the injured people that bring their cases to our attention.

When we contact the Workers Compensation, they are very pleasing to talk to on the phone and they are very helpful in the beginning; and they tell us about having to locate the files; and then they put us on hold; and then they say they cannot locate the file so they will take a message; and then we wait a couple of days and we do not get a return phone call from them, in some cases; so we call back and they still cannot locate the file because it is on somebody's desk somewhere else, in another department in another building.

This creates frustrations with the people who are trying to resolve this through my office, my constituency assistant, and myself who deal with these matters on a regular basis. I hope that the minister listens to the remarks that have been made and have been put on record, that there has to be a process change here that will allow for the speedy access to the information that we are seeking so that we can resolve these matters in a way that will allow us to assist the constituents, these injured workers in the greatest possible speed, Mr. Speaker.

I am hopeful that when the minister introduces his next bill, as I indicated earlier, sometime in the next week, that these changes will be in there. I ask the minister in the strongest terms to ensure that indexation will be part of the program that will allow for the benefits to be improved.

May 22, 19 91 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2383 I have indicated earlier that the bill-I support the contents of this bill. Although there are deficiencies in it, we will do what is in our power to ensure that this bill receives speedy passage, so that the injured workers and their families in the province of Manitoba will receive the benefits to which they are entitled. With that, Mr. Speaker, I will conclude my remarks, and I thank the House for the opportunity to put my statement on record. Ms. Becky Barrett (Welllngton): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Selkirk (Mr.

Dewar), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Biii 5-The Mental Health Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), Bill 5, The Mental Health Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la sante mentale, standing in the name of the hon ourable memb er for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis). An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave that this matter remain standing? Leave. Agreed. Point of Order Mr. Edward Connery (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I would ask you, what is the dress code for mem bers of this Legislature? Do Bermuda shorts constitute part of the dress code for this Legislature? Mr. Speaker, put it on the record that the member for Radisson (Ms. Carilli) is in the Legislature in Bermuda shorts.

I thought there was an appropriate dress code for this Legislature. I would ask if that is the appropriate dress code. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the honourable member for Portage la Prairie. On the point of order raised, I would remind the honourable member that the dress code for the Assembly requires that male MLAs wear a tie and a ja cket and that the female MLAs wear a corresponding type of attire. On the point of order raised, I will take this matter up with the honourable member for Radisson. I would like to thank the honourable member for Portage la Prairie. An Honourable Member: Sorry, Mr.

Speaker, I missed your last- Mr. Speaker: I said I would take this matter up with the honourable member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli). *** Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radlsson): Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak to Bill 5, The Mental Health Act. An Honourable Member: Mr. Speaker, Bill 5 was just stood. An Honourable Member: She is lea vin g it standing but she is speaking to it. • (1 540) Ms. Cerllll: I am leaving it standing in the member for St. Johns' (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis) name and I speak to the bill. Mr.

Speaker, it is issues like are raised in Bill 5 that have provoked me to run to seek office and have, I think, politicized me to a large extent. Bill 5 deals with the rights of mem bers of our society and of our community who are often adversely affected by the institutionalization and the nature of many things that are taken for granted in our community.

I want to address a number of issues which are affected under this bill which deal with mental health, the taboos of mental health, the way that the sickness model, the institutionalized model for dealing with issues related to mental health is taken for granted and used by many provinces and countries across the world. I will also deal with many issues related to the principle of the bill, even though the bill is dealing with patient rights with respect to their ability to appeal treatment.

I would say that there is a long way to go and that Bill 5 may take some small steps to encouraging that the mental health system, which is there to protect patients, actually does that.

In fact, some of the things that I will allude to will show that in many respects treatment and situations that people are put into or subjected to when they are said to be treated for health problems are in fact put in situations where their mental health is jeopardized further, and those who are said to be helping them are actually not helping them at all, but further hindering their ability to take care of themselves, have power and control over their own life. Mr. Speaker, mental health is an area that is not separate, I think, from anyone's everyday life.

All of us have to deal with these issues on an ongoing basis. The stress of living in the world today affects

2384 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN ITOBA May 22, 19 91 everybod y. One of the thi ngs th at affects everybody is the notion that this government bases a lot of its policy on. It is a notion that in our society you have to compete.

I would say that a lot of the policy and things that we take for granted in our society actually are of great danger to our mental health, that a lot of the competition, the isolation, the striving for material possessions, the attitude that you have to push yourself and make good in this world are what contribute to mental health problems, not just for people who are institutionalized, but I think for all of us. One of the problems that we have currently is, a lot of that is not even questioned. There is the attitude that there are certain people who are sick and there are certain people who are well.

There is some notion that the people who are sick are going to be taken care of by those who are well, and the people who are often victims of the culture that we live in are seen as sick. They are often blamed for their disadvantage, their position, and rather than being offered the kind of caring and compassion that they need to become more healthy or to cope, they are often put into institutions and treated in such a way that they are in fact going to be worse off. I can give some examples of that, areas of patients' rights that this bill does not deal with.

The whole area of when someone is going to be admitted to a psychiatric institution, the way that they are dehumanized and depersonalized. For example, people are not allowed to wear their own clothing. They are not allowed to be responsible for deciding when they should eat, when they should be able to set their own daily

schedule in that way. Also, they might be put into situations where even if they are voluntarily admitted, they will not be allowed to maintain authority over their own bank account. All of these are areas that legislation, such as Bill 5, could have dealt with, but it did not. Other problems are with the way the institutionalized or sickness model of mental health relies on labels for men tal health, further dehuma nizes and depersonalizes individuals who are involved in the system.

For example, people then become known as psychotic of schizophrenic and, unfortunately, are no longer dealt with as a person living in a social system, but they are simply seen as their illness is labelled. I would say that a lot of this contributes to the powerlessness and ill health that many of these people then experience. Another issue that this bill does not deal with that it could have is the whole issue of the use of electroshock treatments and the prescription drugs in many psychiatric institutions.

A number of the ways that treatment is administered, particularly when you combine it with the fact that.it is done often without the person's consent, I would say is inhumane. I would hope that in the future we would see legislation where some of these practices become illegal or become no longer practices that are used in our ca regiving institutions or caregiving organizations for people suffering problems.

The whole issue of prescription drug addiction is another serious mental health issue and oftentimes when people are labelled, as I said earlier, with having a mental illness, they are prescribed quantities of drugs where even some psychiatrists would say that there has been no scientific proof that the drugs are actually helping, but what they do is they keep the individuals quiet and easier to control. This is another area that raises concerns about the rights of these people who are confined to these health institutions. Mr.

Speaker, the other problem is with the rights of patients to have a clear explanation of what the drugs and the combination of drugs and the side effects of those combinations of drugs are actually doing to their health, not only their mental health, but their physical health. This is a whole area where we are asked to simply trust the authorities and we see in many cases where there has not been research to show that even the authorities are prescribing medi

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-2-48
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 2nd hansardpdf 48.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	134c17f78e8db6201053280562a731ff5743fdd8

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