PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY ,•' Volume 1 Number 55 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, MAY 14, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

May 14, 1971 (Mornini) The llouse met at 11 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. HON. F.W. ROWE, Tape No. 647 NC - 1 MINISTf.R OF EDUCATION: I should like to give the House what I might call a progress report on the matter of grants for recreational projects, physical education projects. Several weeks ago I was able to announce that fifteen communities had received financial assistance for recreational projects under the Recreational Capital Grants Programme.

I am now very pleased to announce that the following additional communities have qualified for assistance under this programme: Lumsden - a playing field, Norris Point - swimming pool, Corner Brook - an outdoor sports complex, Eddies Cove East - an outdoor hockey rink, Stag Harbour - a sports field, Fortune - a soccer field, Garnish - a soccer field, Cormack - an outdoor rink, Roddickton - a sports field, Hopedale - an outdoor rink, Nain - a sports field and outdoor rink 1 (without 1 I may add, &ny artificial ice 'They have not requested any artificial ice\ and Makkovik - an outdoor rink. Mr.

Chairman, I am sure that there are other hon. members, or all hon. members are probably wondering what about this project or that project, this community and that community, ?his is a progress report, as I indicated,and there are other applications on hand, not perhaps tomorrow- well tomorrow .- in the Parliamentary sense. Tomorrow may be two weeks time, if we are here, may be less than that, there will be others that I will be able to announce as well. I might say, Mr. Speaker, these are very gratifying developments.

This is an indication of something we are all recognizing now, namely that there is a tremendous increase all over this Province, in every part of this Province, in recreation• Of course the interest has been there perhaps.but nothing has been done about it,to any great extent. MR. HICKEY: Do we have to send in coupons? MR. :mLA:-1: N'o. We are giving green stamps.

May 14, 1971 l'c:rn1n::- Tape No. 647 NC - 2 MR. ROHE: My old friend got to be careful here. He has a district out there that we are trying to look,after too. He has got to be nice to me. UR. Mt.:RPIIY: MR. ROWE: As a matter of fact, at this very minute, our Director of Recreation, Mr. Snow, is meeting with officials of the Municipal Council of St. John's, at this very minute,in City Hall. MR. MURPHY: I just asked a question and •••••••• MR. ROWE: Five minutes ago I had occasion to contact Mr. Snow on another matter and that is where I got him,in the Office of the City Engineer.at City Hall.

There will be others.Mr. Speaker, and -0 there will be, I stress that point because I am sure that hon. members will be receiving queries from various communities. "What about our project,' All these applications are under discussion and under examination and we hope will be processed, 1n most cases will be processed in~the very near future. I will table copies of this for the press. C. MR. MURPHY: You better hurry on because you never know when the election is going to be called. You had better get them all out in a hurcy. MR.

SPEAK.ER: Before we go into the Orders of the Day, I would like, on behalf of all the members of the House,to extend a very cordial welcome to a number of students from the Fisheries College. They are second year Electronicrstudents and they are accompanied by their Guidance Councillor, Mr. Bob LeMessurier. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): Mr.

Chairman, I have a number of answers to questions directed to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. 257,on the Order Paper of ~arch 29,in the name of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, although I notice here it is 29/3/71, would be March 29, would it not? ~664

}l:ty 14, 1971 (Horning) Tape No. 647 NC - 3 NR. CURTIS: It is already answered, Mr. Premier. MR. SMALLWOOD: It is already answered. It shows you see, it shows, service with a smile. Question 254 on the Order Paper of March 291 in the name of the same hon. gentleman and directed to the Minister of Public Works, it ought to have been directed in fact to the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. The answer to the first

part is ten, and the second part - Old Perlican, Placentia, Port aux Basques, Springdale, St. George's, Trepassey, Aguathuna,, Burin, and the amounts are listed here. I will not bother to read them out.I will send the list over to the hon. gentleman. There is also a house,not in that -list, that was constructed at Harbour Breton. I cannot give the cost because they are not finalized. The answer to the third pdrt is that these were prefabricatetl houses. There is only one house prefabricating factory in the Province and it went to them - but except for two, one at Burin and the one at Port aux Basques.

The one at Burin,by lowest tender was $41,436.38, and the one at Port aux Basques, the lowest tender there was $39,269.09, but the others were prefabricated and the tenders were called for the foundations. All of these were dwellings. It cost a lot less to buy the prefabricated houses aod have them taken and put in place. Question no. 256, directed to the Minister of Public Works in error. It ought to have been directed to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. That is on the Order Paper of March 29. It is the same kind of information. The answer to the first

part is eleven, to· the second part - Bay L'Argent, Grand Bank, Springdale, Dunville, Grand Falls, Grand Falls, Grand Falls, (three} Port Saunders, Bay Roberts, Fogo. :J665

~!o.y 16, 1971 (Homing) Tape No, 647 NC - 4 MR. Mt:RPUY: These are welfare officers, the other one medical officers. :m.. S!!ALLUOOD: All right. The one in Harbour Breton is not fin.'.llized, I notice that is the same in the other one - there must have been two at Harbour Breton and the costs are not finalized. I do not know why. The same answer, they were done by, except several of them, they w~re done by prefabrication. At Bay L'Argent there were seven·quotations. At Grand ,, Bank there were six. At Springdale there were four. At Dunville there were six. And in Grand Falls there were twelve quotations, tenders.

At Port Saunders there were three, Bay Roberts - four, Harbour Breton -seven. In Fogo,where there seems to be an urgent need for the house, it was ordered as a prefabricated house. I will send the list along. Question no. 527, also directed to the Minister of Public Works,by someone, I do not know whom. · I t is question 527 • Yes the member for Fortune Bay, ~be answer to part one is $600, bought from George Lawrence; part two - foundations and preparatory work cost $8,170.42, (

c) delivered at the site $14,925, roughly $15,000. (

d) this is included in (

c) above included in the cost of the huilding,included the furnis?ings and fittings. The $14,925 included the furnishings and fittings. The total cost of the whole thing, everything including the surveying,was $24,035.42. The answer to question "2" is $79 a month, and the answer to the third question is ten for doctors, eighteen for welfare officers and one for a magistrate. Question ho. 258,on the Order Paper of !-!arch 29, in the mime of the hon. the temporary Leader of the Opposition. MR. MU~PIIY: Answered by the temporo.ry Premier. ~666

I-lay Hi, 1971 {Morning) Tape No. 647 NC - 5 ~m. S~LLUOOD: Permanent. The Tories have the feeling that the Premiership of Newfoundland is permanently held •••• won six times. Question 258,on the Order Paper of March 29,by the hon. gentleman and addressed to the Hinister of Municipal Affairs. It is too long to read out.

They are asking the places where property has been acquired for land banks, giving the acreage, cost to the Government and the detail of central mortgage and municipal participation, Hell ,the answer is that the places where land has been acquired for future development are Burin, Trepassey, Dunville, Harbour Breton, St. John's,~ewtown; some industrial, some residential land,and Corner Brook, the new satellite town I suppose. MR. mrRPHY: Is that going to be called St. John's, Newtown? MR. SMALLWOOD: No. That is what it is called here on this answer. There might be someth~g to be said for that, calling it St.

John's Newtown, however that will not be the name. But I can promise the hon. gentleman that it will not be called after him. No. MR. MURPHY: The hon. gentleman feels •uite assured that while the present Government is in power there will be nothing called after him. MR. SMALLWOOD:Corner Brook, St. Alban's~ Milltown, Ba~e Verte, it is approximately 600 ~cres. Approximately 33 acres in Burin, 37 acres in T.repassey, 47 acres in Dunville, 29 acres in Harbour Breton, 480 acres St. John's industrial, and 13,090 acres residential, 300 acres Corner Brook, 24 acres St.

Alban's, 56 acres Milltown, and Baie Verte 600 acres, the 600 was not the total of it all. That was just the amount for Baie Verte, so it is quite an acreage. Then there is a column showing how 111Uch of it is already developed or being developed and then how much is left for fu~ure development and the cost to the Government. I see there is one lot that cost the Government nothing - Bale Verte 600 acres. In Milltown ~667

May 16, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 647 rlC - 6 }ffi. SMALLWOOD: it cost us $10,000 and in St. Alban's $13,000, Corner Brook, the land for future development is not yet acquired. I do not see how they can say that it is acquired and then say it is not. St. John's,industrial and residential,is now under arbitration. -Harbour Breton cost us $5.500. Dunville is under arbitration. ·trepassey cost us $2,700 and Burin cost us $2,500.

Federal participation in Burin, Trepassey, Dunville and Corner Brook is on a seventy-five - twenty-five per cent basis, that is,Central Mortgage and the Government of Canada put up seventy­ five per cent of the cost and the Newfoundland Government twenty­ five per cent. In the case of St. John's,the industrial land, that is 480 acres, being financed by DREE, by a loan from DREE. The 850 acres of the St. John's,Newtown,,residential, seventy-five per cent, twenty-five per cent Federal-Provincial and the rest of it,I assume,is all Provincial.

Question no. 431,on the Orde~ Paper of April 13, in the name of the hon. member _for Fortune Bay; He asks the Government to indicate for how many months each of ,the unoccupied houses of the subsidized and economic rental units in Maeystown has been vacant. How long has each of the houses been vacant? It is presumed that this question relates to the vacancy report given in answer to the earlier question, when it was stated that the thirty-seven economic rental units were vacant on March 1, 1971. So apparently the answer has already been given.

I may say that.in my opinion, everyone of these houses will be occupied shortly and an awful lot more houses will be needed in Marys town. MR. EARLE: Inaudible. ~668

!'lay 16, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 647 NC - 7 MR. SMALLWOOD: It seems to have been given. The answer to that question also explained that while two subsidized rental units were vacant at that time, this was normal turn-over vacancy and the project is in effect fully occupied. Apparently they.are all now fully occupied. The answer now given,therefore, relates to the economic rental units. No, the subsidized rental units are all occupied now. \. With regard to the economic rental units which were vacant on March l~t.,the answer is too long to read out,so I will send it over.

Incidentally these that are not rented at the moment, whether they be economic or uneconomic, subsidized or unsubsidized, every vacant house in Maeystown should very shortly be occupied and with Marystown faced with dire need for many more houses to be built. Question 472·,on the Order· Paper of April 14, in the name of the hon. gentleman and the member for St. John's Westi There is ·a

schedule attached, It is too long to read out, I will send it over. 3669

~l;iy 14, 1971. Tape 648 rage 1. l'forning Session. T-1P .'POWE: I have one question here for which I have the answer, Question 551, asked by the Leader of the Opposition. On the Order Paper of May 10. It relates to the use of our facilities at Torbay by a hockey school. The Director informs me that we rent ·out our facilities at Torbay Bay and have been doing it for some years, :he gymnasium, the swimming pool, now the· hostel facilities as well.

In February I think,when it became known thatwe ,.,<'rP going to have hostel facilities available, some three organizations approached us to ne8otiate the use, rent for the use of that. These negotiations were proceeding very well. Unfortunately our renovations and repairs to Torbay proved to be more extensive and more time-consuming than had been anticipated by the Department of Public Works.and their engineers. The result was,we were forced to inform these three organizations that we could not have our hostel facilities available,for their rental use,on time.

In the case of one of the organizations this did not present a problem. In the case of two others, one the hockey training one, the other the Gymnastics training project, it did present arproblemi they would not have had time to arrange any alternative facilities. they might have had either to postpone or to cancel their plans for the hockey school. I BIil very happy to say that our officials"took the bull by the horns" so to speak,' on the matter, and said to them, in effect, "well look, -..,e do not have our hostel arrangements, we do not want to. We realize this is not your fault., it is our fault.

Actually it is nobody's fault but it was circumstances beyond our control, anybody's contr-ol. We would be very happy if it would be any use to you. We would be very happy to let your group, your trainees use our gym as a sort of a dormitory, at no cost at allf This is what they ap.reed to do, They brought in their own army cots, placed them in the gym, without,of course, with the floor properly covered.they use that gymnasiU111 as a dormitory in place of the hostel facilities which . would otherwise have been available to them, This was done in the case of two organizations.

Of course the repairs and renovations there, 1 have not been down there for two weeks or so but I would think that by now they are pretty well completed . and we do not anticipate this sort of emerp,ency ~.-111 arise any more. Ap.ain ~670

'1:iy 14, 1971. Tape 648. Par,e 2. Morning Session. I would roint out that we do rent our facilities to recognized organiz­ ations and groups; swimming pool, gym and so on, on a standard rental charge. These facilities are available up to a maximum use>of course,as far as time is concerned,to any group wishing to take advantage of it. MP..1-nJRPHY: Mr, Speaker, if I may be permitted just one supplementary question. I am referring more to the accommodations, Will these accommod­ ations, board, lodging, be available to recognized athletic groups, like visiting for tournaments etc,?

They will be availabler MR.ROWE: Oh yes, that is the whole purpose. A group comes in from say, Corner Brook. Well, it is a gymnastics team,comes in for display. They cannot afford to go and pay fifteen dollars a day at a hotel here. If they did the project would be out. But, w:1.th a hostel, my hon. friend probably knows we have a cafeteria there as well, One of the reasons, by the way, we were anxious and very happy to oblige these groups at that time is that the cafeteria is a marginal operation. ~t is a private concession, marginal operation as far as profits are concerned.

Any time we can create additional patronage for that cafeteria., it makes us all the happier because of cou:-se we want to keep that cafeteria there.as filling a very important need there. But these facilities are available to any recognized group 1 That includes, of course,the facilities,include the hostel accommodations as well as the gym,the swimming pool and other facilitles as well. I am very happy to see, I am sure all hon. members will be\ the degree to which these facilities are being used down there.

The one group I am familiar with, the badminton group, ~he hundred and fifty members of the St, John's Badminton Associat·,on., using those facilities down there - I said to somebody one timejwhy do they not use it another night as well, three nights a week,so they can give better opportunity, the answer I got was,the gymn is simply not available, The gymn is being used so much by others the use is the maximum. '!"R,ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, some of the questions standing in my name on the Order Paper: First two questions asked by the hon. member for Burin.addressed to the Minister of Educ:ttion, which T think more appropriately should be ~671

?lay 14, 1971. Tape 648. Page 3. Morning Session. answered hy me. First of these,Sir, Question No. 79,0rder Paper,March 25: I can only speak for the petiod from June of 1969. I think the member from Rurin,if he searched his memory.1,muld have some information before that point. Hut,since that time meetings have been held between me, and representatives of the University. The outcome of the meeting 1 in a very short form,Mr. Speaker, was no satisfactory result at all. Accordingly we have gone to the College of Trades a Technology to have a course put into effect. Question No. 81.(l)There are no formal agreeMents.

They are very well understood informal agreements,to the effect that a proportion of Newfoundland students in the medical and dental facilities at Dalhousie will decrease somewhat in the medical sense but remain unaltered or increased in the dental sense. The phasing 1,n __ ~_f the new medical school at Memorial University,obviously,is lessening the demand by Newfoundland students for places at Dalhousie.

(2) We are now negotiating that point.Mr. Speaker, with a view towards reducing the number of students in respect of whom we contribute,in view of the fact the r~r capita contribution by the Govern­ ment of all the Atlantic Provinces,f~r each medical or dental student,1J increasing rapidlJ,Qur absolute contribution may remain the same, but it will buy fewer places. Question No. 94: On the Order Paper March 25: I have them here and I will put them on the table of the House~Mr. Speaker, so that hon. members can read tham at whatever leisure they wish.

The hon. gentleman also asked if they have been changed, the terms of reference to the St. John's Advisory Council has been changed,with a view to making the Council a more effective coardinating force! While tam nn that point,Sir, I may announce that the Government have appointed three new members to the St. John's Hospital AHvisory Council. Pr, Ralph Moore of the General Hospital, Mr. Don KellAnd of the Charles A Janeway Child Health Centre, Mr. David Sparkes of the Childrens R~hab. Centre. These are the chief executive officers of those hospitals. Question No. 107: On the Order Paper March 25.

It is fairly long so I will ~672

May 14, 19 71. T11pe 648. Page 4. Morning Session. lay a copy on the Table of the House, about the Janeway Apartments and the rents down there. March 25. Tabled. Similarly, Question No. 142, on the Order Paper Question No. 268: on the Order Paper of March 29.

(1) Yes. March 16, 1971

(2) No. Because a review of potential needs for additional medical staff in the area throughout the Province, in respect of which the Government provide direct medical service~ as indicated that has the need for the fourth doctor at Grand Bank is outweighed by the need for other doctors at several other points in the Province. We are goinF: to put the other doctors in place first.

(3) Yes. April 21, 'fhe Matter il": ~ow receiving consideration from my officials. Question No. 282: March 29, the Order Paper on which it will be found. There has been no revised budget submitted. The CoT'lillission's financial year is the same as that of the Government. The Commission began oneration on April 1, 1969 . The financial statement for that year will he found in the first annual report.which I think,Mr. Speaker,,has been tabled since the hon gentleman asked the question. The budget for the 1970-71 financial yecr will be found in the estimates for the House, as approved b¥ the House, on page 165.

The financial statements for that year will be given as soon as I have received the Commission's annual report. I do not have it as yet. Question No. 284. on the Order Paper March 29. (1) list tabled. the only thing that looks interesting on it is a padder. I asked ny officials what a padder was.for the total of $98.84.

A padder is a machine which holds the separate sheets,in a bunch of forms,in place,while a strip of glue is being aprlied so that the separate sheets are made into pa~e4, The Commission always huy on a call of tenders for anything in excess of $500, Anything !ess than that is a matter of negotiations between the Commission and the sources of their supply. Question No. 294. On the 6rder Paper of }'arch 29. (1) t do not have the total hut I have the two breakdowns. We paid Horwood, Campbell and Guihan $95,466. We paid the firm of Deleuw Cather $4, 093, approximately $100,000. ~673

"ay 14, 1971. Tape 648 Page 5. Horning Session. I may add,Sir, that these plans are not completed but the Government has indicated we are now proceeding to have the plans completed.

(2) We have investi~ated four: One near the cemetery in Carbonear, one near the tannery in Carbonear, site near the existing hospital, then a site near Noel's garage which was the site that has finally been selected. That is on Saddle Hill I believe. We have had reports from Horwood Campbell & Guihan from Deleuw Cather, from the Health Facilities Designs Jjivision of the Government of Canada and from my own officials in the Department of Health. Question 486 on the Order Paper of April 16. I have nothing to add to the statement which I made in this House on April 17, 1970. m.CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, in connection with Question 486, when the Minister answered last year I believe he said that there was no substance to the charges. The Minister means that this is still the same position,! gather. "1-IR.ROBERTS: Nr. Speaker, I have nothing to add to my statement, what I said last year stands. MR.CROSBIE: Well, in connection with

part 2, of the question, did the hon. member for Placentia West supply the Minister with any further details? MR.ROBERTS: 1•r. Speaker, I think my answer really was a complete one, I am not trying to evade it in any way. What I said a year ago or a little over, thirteen months ago, in the House,it is still a full and complete answer to the question raised by the hon. gentleman. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR.CROSBIE: On Orders of the DAy,Mr. Speaker, before we go into Orders of the Day,I have a question for the hon. minister of Finance.

Could he advise the House whether the Government intends to give the Newfoundland Government Employees Association the right to strike,as has been suggested by the President of that Association, ~fr. William Noseworthy? On the same topic could he advise the House "'hether or not he intends to bring in new ler.islation to replace the ~ublic Service Collective Bargaining Act, which ler,ielation,the present should be scrapped and new legislation brour,ht in. ~IR.JONES: ~•r. Speaker, I 'l,.•ould be very happy to ans"l..'er these questions but ~674

~fay 1 t,. 191 7. Tare 648/ Page 6. Morning Session. I "'ould like to have notice of them, have them on the Order Paper. They are two weighty questions involv:l.t,g the policy of Government. Cnmmittee_of Supply: __ Heading 14, Fisheries. ~'R .EMILE: Mr.

Chairman, ,,,hen I finally succeeded in putting everybody to sleep ;it eleven o'clock last night.by being deliberately monotonous on this particular discussion, I did ~o deliberately because I thought that the \ introduction of such an important subject as Fisheries,at seven or eight minuter. to eleven o'clock at night,after literally a twelve hour dayJit was a little bit too much and certainly did not indicate any great consid­ eration on the part of the Government or those who call the order at that late hour,that the thing could be discussed intelligentlY, and so I, as I say 1 I was deliberately monotonous just to run out of time last night.

I was making a point which I think might bear repPtition particularly in view of the fact that there are some students of the Fisheries College in the galleries tris morning. I was giving a little of the background of the salt codfis~ industry,with particular emphasis. in which I deplored the drop-off of employment in that industry and the things which are associated with the auxiliary activities which at--one time were so very ereat in this frovince. I refer to such things as the making of packages, the cutting of staves and all of this sort of things that went into the preparation and export of salt fish.

It is nothing at all to see,in the outports around the Province in various areas, two or three hundred men e~ployed at these activities, Now that the fishery has become more streamlined,we like to think more modern, where most of the activities are concentrated in deco-sea draggers and deep-sea fishing, the shore fishery unfortunately is fast becomin~ a thing of the past. This has a very unsatisfactory result. insofar, there are far less people getting gainful employment out of it.

Our younr- visitors today r,rohal,ly do not remember many of the thinr,s which happened in the past and perhaps some of them are better forgotten '"'6 ,., 5 o,j '

May 14, 1971. Tape 648. Page 7. Morning Ses~ion. because conditions in tho!'le days were far from satisfa.ctory. But, it must be remembered that the several thousands of men who were wc,rking in those days at the fisheries were livini? on a scale which·.ras comparable to every­ body else in that day. Today, ,~hile the thing has advanced to a point where earnings are getting up somewhere near what we hope they wi;J..l eventually he, th::y are still far from satisfact .ory, are still now considerably below the comparison of wage:s and earnin~s in other activities. So, '-'bile · the industry is improving in a quick and logi(ral sense,it has not yet by any means reached :]676

May 14, 1971 Tape 649 (morning) PK - 1 1:R. F.ARLE: the stage where it has reached the point of giving adequate earnings to those who participate in it, with a few exceptions. There are dragger skippers 1 of course 1 and deep sea draggers,men that do make very satisfactory wages, but the average fellow~who goes at the fisheries in a more or less casual way,does not earn an adequate living. I do not think he ever can, if he approaches it in that manner. Mr. Chairman,the interest in fisheries has a peculiar cycle in this particular Province. It seems to revive very strongly in election years.

Between election years there does not seem to be emphasis placedcon the attention which should be paid to the fisheries. But all of a sudden in election years the fisheries become very, very important indeed. I remember the first time I was elected as a member to this Bouse, the whole manifesto in that election campa:l,gn was based on the fisheries, the development of the fisheries.

I am very sorry and regretfully have to report that so many of the things that were in that manifesto have never been done and have not been accomplished, Now repeated,with a promise to the future. today,we see the same things being I think_. the people today are ·,;etting much wiser •• They are becoming aware that they cannot accept promises nor pie in the sky theories. They want to get down to earth or get down to sea in this case, and see what will be done fa: the fisheries, not what will be promised for the fisheries.

The old-time industries in the fisheries,where they often, as I say, employed several hundred people, G~nerally speaking did not get any great help by way of subsidy or certainly any grants or anything of that nature. When you come to make a comparsion of those days with today, when an industry which may employ 300 or 400 people is guaranteed to the extent of perhaps $150 million, we cannot but draw a conclusion as to why the fisheries of this Province did not proceed at the same pace as some other industry.

Because none of these. none of this important industry was looked at in the light that it should have guarantees of s~bstantial amounts of money,wbich would help it really to get on its feet. 3677

Hay 14, 1971 Tape 649 (morning) PK - 2 MR, EARLE: There were some enterpreneurs and some active men who made valiant attempts to build up the industry to a certain extent. But, even in their case. I do not feel and I have never felt that the industry was given the proper attention and the proper importance that it deserved. When I was closely associated with it and went to Ottawa to meet the Federal Government on many ocassions, I was continually preaching that gospel almost to adnauseam.

Some of the officials in Ottawa used to get, I think, tired of hearing me say that from a national standpoint the fisheries were of very, very little concern to Ottawa. This has been the basic reason and the real reason why the fisheries of Canada have not progressed. Unlike other countries, particular European countries where the fisheries are of dominant importan~e, in Canada the fisheri~s are just something to fill in the gaps or.if a fellow cannot get anything else to do, he goes there.

Now this has been degrading to the industry and it has been particularly degrading to the fishermen themselvea,-because to a great extent,over the years they lost faith in the indur.try. This was further e111phasized deteriorated by the attitude of the_time~of the Provincial Government.towards the fisheries. Because there was so much open criticism of fish merchants and fisheries generally that. everybody got to the stage of feeling; well, the further we are away from this particular industry, the better it is for all concerned.

It is almost like politics, the Newfomidlanders came to the conclusion that it is so dirty to be associated with politics and it was even dirtier to be associated with the.fisheries. Because the sort of remarks that were made against this industry at the time,and I well recall when I was closely associated with it, what terrible effects these remarks had in the marketing of our product. I was very actively associated with the marketing of the product and,time after time 1in going to the markets, I would have it slapped up to me that your Government does not seem to think 3678

May 14, 1971 Tape 649 (morning) PK - 3 HR. EARLE: very much of the fisheries• _!,ook what they are saying about it.' ' I remember, on one ocassion. a former Minister of Fisheries,who ~as now passed on to his reward, came to my home,with the Danish Minister of Fisheries and other European fisheries expert,and we sat down and we let our hair down over the evening and talked about fisheries until very late at niEht, early in the morning actually. When I was saying good-bye to the Minister at that time,from Denmark, he called me to one side and said, "Mr.

Earle, I cannot be impolite.I am your guest,"but:he said,"did you introduce me to this gentleman, as the Minister of Fisheries?" I said;''yes, he is the Minister of Fisheries, a very fine gentleman, a clo~e friend of mine.• '"Well; he said,''if he werethe Hiuister of Fishedes in Denmark, he would be strung up.• He said he would not live ten minutesi if he talked about the fisheries in that way. His whole attitude towards it was negative and this I am afraid penneated the whole Govermnent at that time. , . - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR.

EARLE: There was a Minister from Denamrk and there was another gentleman from E~rope, I cannot recall his name at the time. He was a high cfficial in the Fisheries at that ~~rticular time. I do not recall his name. But, anyhow, they thought,and rightly so I think, we were taking a very, very dim view of the fisheries and the development of fisheries. They frankly could not understand it. Now today we are once again finding a resurrection of interest in the fisheries and again rightly so. It is gradually being recognized, as being of vast impo~tance to this Province.

Whether it develops along entirely different lines, as I expect it must, it will still play a very important

part indeed in the lives of a gre~t many people around this Province and will for many, many years to come. It will,of oourse,have its ups and downs.-!he fishing business,being the nature that it is, will not always be prosperous, as we hope it will be this year and perhaps for the next few years, but it will have its swings back and forth. ~679

Mny 14, 1971, Tape 649 (morninr,) PK- 4 MR. EARLE: nut,if we can sttladly make progress, in spite of these <lips and hollows and these sunnnits, we may eventually get somewhere,to the point that we hope we can in this Province> putting the fisheries into its rightful place and importance to the whole scheme of things. Important as other industries are in Newfoundland, because of our geographically position and the natural resource we have at our doorstep, the fisheries must always be regarded as one of the most important of our natural assets.

Now here today we have great cause for worry because of the depreciation of the stocks in the fisheries, which have been reported so constantly by the dragger and trawler fleet and by the operaters of these boats. Again, to go back a little, I recall when I served as a member of ICNAF, that is, the Intemational Commission for the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries, That was back in 1961.I think, ten years ago. But aven at that time.ten years t he scientists who are the adv-isers to that commission, were then tellinf• '­ago, the industry that something had to be done about it or the stocks of fish would disappear.

They were not as firm in their remarks as they are today, because they had not collected sufficient evidence. They very often beclouded the issue by going into long treatise- · scientific aspect of fisheries, which might be intelligible to some of those there. but certainly were not to most of us. But the point behind all of this was they were worried then about the depletion of stocks, and I can well recall the attempts,that Intemational Agreement on the size of nets, the mesh of nets and the control of the catching of fish, all received a run· up against a blank wall.

You might get one or two nations to agree, generally the ones who were not very much interested in the fisheries or at least interested in some of the others, but the big operators, the people who are coming over here in the thousands and taking the fish off of our very doorsteps,were the ones who were the least interested in conservating the stock. Now at last they are waking up to the fact that there maybe nothing left for them, if this carries ,on

Mny 14, 1971 Tape 649 (morning) PK - 5 MR. F.ARLE: There is a possibility at last, I think, that some International Agreements may be reached. But, in the meantime, we here in Newfoundland have a basic fishery which must be preserved and which must grow. We cannot wait for the interminable attempts to reach the international ar,reement. Canada must take a stronger approach to it than that,It has to be adamant about protectinr, its own interest in the fisheries.

I think, the Federal Government in Ottawa, although it is showing more interest, has not yet wakened up to the fact that this is of such great importance to this particular part of Canada. They will only wake up to its importance , if Newfoundland and the Newfoundland Government is foremost in its protest and in its demands for the protection of the fisheries. It is no good in this particular case to leave everrthing to Uncle Ottawa, because Uncle Ottawa is not all that interested in fisheries.

They have had to subsidize us for years and help us out in various ways, but they do not mind paying out a few million dollars,apparently. But when it comes to conservation and really building up a· viable industry here, I do not think we can expect them to show the initiative. The initiative will have to come from Newfoundland and it will have to be spearheaded by the Government of Newfoundland.

The Government of Newfoundland must not just talk, the Government of Newfoundland have to act, because this is a very substantial part of our life-blood 1 I suppose is what you would call the white corpuscles of our blood stream. We have to, whether we like it or not, we must, we have to, Mr. Chairman, protect what remaining stocks we have of our fisheries and hOpefully,if the proper conservation measures are taken,to build these back into something like they were in the past.

Now, I think this also applies very dramatically today to the inshore fishery because what is happening• certain natural resources are being exploited at a terrific rate. I think particular~y the area which I represent,the south coast of Fortune Bay and down around the area,the herring fishery I which is now been exploited by terrific machines ~ that is all you can call them. they are literally machines that go out and stick down a huge

May 14, 1971 Tape 649 (morning) PK - 6 MR. EARLE: net and bring in tons upon thousands of tons of these herring. They come in at night.with lights blazing. they clean up the whole business and they go on. The great worry of the fishermen in that area is that, in so doinr,, they are cleaning up everything else with it and they are destroying the bottom of the ocean and they are really wrecking haddock.

Now nobody in his right senses wants to discourage an industry such as we have on the South Coast; where a great many plant workers and a great many ' - seamen find their livlihooa from the operations of these herring seiners and in the plants. But in the particular herring business,where so much of it is going into meal and animal feed,the amount of employment is not ~ery great, except on the seiners themselves and very often these are not,very often these are not all Newfoundland crews. The employment in the plants the dehydrating plants or a meal plant is very, very small indeed.

But what has fortunately develope~over the last couple of years,is a greatly activated interest in herring for food. In all these places down there,the people are waking up to packing of herring once again for food purposes. This is bringing a great deal of bad:y needed money into a lot of small places. The fact that a few thousand barrels of herring aEe packed in a little village.means a tremendous amount to the people in that particular village.

They rightly get indignant and upset, if,while they are trying to do this some night,a fellow with a large seiner comes right in their harbour and cleans out the whole business~the next morning you could not catch a herring if you tried. The thing has been swept clean. I was very pleased that this winter we were successful in getting a

section of Fortune Bay barred off to herring seiners. Now that had another disasterous effect,in this way,that the herring seiners that were fishing on that side of Fortune Bay immediately left and crowded in on the other.dide of the bay. The damage done on the other side of the bay was more coneentrated than it ever was in the past. 1 do not know what the answer to this is I but it seems to me that there must be some mutual arrangement made between fishermen. shore fishermen, plant operators and the owners of these seiners and so on,that sensible restrictions 'limit them to certain areas must be arrived at. 36~2

May 14, 1971 Tape 649 (morning) PK - 7 MR. EAFI.E: I know that there have been meetings of the trade and the fishermen and so on, but I do not think that, at this stage,they have gotten very far with it. ~ hope that these meetings will be continued, certainly that they will be encouraged by our Provincial Government. I think the Provincial Government has to take a very active interest in it1 although it seems to be largely left to the Federal Authorities, co see that sensible regulations are somehow drawn up to protect sufficient stocks of fish for the inshore fisherman who makes his livlihood from it.

I was interested at the time of the Development Conference in hearing the minister ou~~~~ing plans for fishery service stations. I hope that when we get into this discussion on the particular i~em, that he will g~ into more detail on this,because I agree that it is a very worll~while scheme and perhaps long overdue. But a caution that I might make here is that a fishing boat is not like a carnor a truck -that is pretty obvious to anybody, But a service station for boats is not a meager sort of thing or a very haphazard kind of~ thing that can just do certain johs.

Generelly, when fishing boats get into trouble, they get into real trouble. Their engines : are complicated and need good service and need very efficient servicing. One of the problems over many parts of the Province,with the servicing of fishing boats.are depots for parts and well trained people to be able to service these machines and to do it properly. Now I cannot visualize a service station of the nature what they do with a car, where you just drive in and get supplies or get gas or something of this sort. If that is all it is going to be, it will be not of any great use to the Province.

It will be of some service, but not of any great use 1 It has to go much further than that. It has to develop along the lines of being able to give really adequate services to these fishing boats. I recall having seen in Europe and in the South of England,in particular, what they term over there as a Marina, I think, which are mainly for the servicing of pleasure yatchs.

You see hundreds,literally thousands of these boats drawn up in some of these harbours and coves, going in to get sert!ce of various kin_ds, Sut there is alvan .or it seems invariable, to be· associated with these places, machine shops, proper food , establishments, supplies 3683 ·'

- May 14, 1971 Tape 649 (morning) PK - 8 MR. EARLE: of all the necessary lines and twines and everything that goes with the operation of a boat. Now this is not a small undertaking, it is a very expensive and quite a big one. I do not think that we should again look at the fisheries as a casual sort of thing that we can treat ~it?htly by making what may well be a bluff, by putting up what we call service stations, if they are not built in such a way and developed so that they can se-rvice the boats.

And.of course, you cannot put these things all over the place. ~.may be all very well for political purposes to say you are going to put a service station here there or somewhere else, and this is a great interest to the voters particularly in an election year. They say;•we are going to get something.'' But that is not the answer to the fisheries. · That is not the answer to the problem of the fisheries, just something put in there which only does a half.hearted job. What we ,want there is strater,ically located, proper servicirr depots, which as I said, Mr.

Chairman, will cost a considerable amount of money, certainly far more than we see provided in the . estimates .for this year. Just commenting again on a few of the problems in the fishing industry; the Canadian Salt Fish Corporation haj deservingly had a good many pats on the back this year, In its first year of operations,it has apparently done an escellent job. It was something that, although Government do not \ like to admit it, we in the trade, when we were in that business,were hammering away at for years and years and years,before the Government ever thought of it.

I had interviews and discussions with the late C.D. Hm,e, back fifteen or more years 'ago 1 on the self same subject. We discussed it and:talked about it and the answer used to be always - 'if you can get the maritimes to come in on it, we will go along with you." I remember coming back from Ottawa on one ocasaion,very enthusastic that we could get together in a cot'lloration that would really serve the fishery _properly, not the NAFEL which was so ~lign in those days, NAFEL was used again ~s ·a political football, although it did untold ~ood to the fishermen of this country,hy standing behind prices.

I think, when the full story is told of the operations of NAFEL, not only the merchants,who ::;~~4

!'ay 14, 1971 Tape 649 (mornin~) PK - 9 :IR. EARLi:: were always held up to scorn in those days, but the fishermen themselves have realized just what a iood job that outfit did in marketing and holdinr, up the price of fish. Now NAFEL was not the

Uay 14, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 650 NC - 1 MR. F.ARLE: complete answer and those of us who were directors and interested in it at the time knew it was not the complete answer. It was a stop-gap measure which developed out of the food control board in the last war and,as such 1it served a purpose. But those of us who were directors on that tried interminably,with meetings such as I have described with Mr.

Howe, with meetings among ourselves,day after day, night after night, we sat down and tried to work out a formula that would be acceptab~e to Government that the fishermen and the industry could get together i_E a proper organization. I remember on on occasion I thought we had the answer and I rang up the Acting Minister of Fisheries at the time and he was most enthusiastic about it. He thought,if we had part of the answer we· could get together with Government and we could work this out. We were all set to go the next day on a meeting. At mid~day that day the Minister called me and said it was all off.

He had had consultation with his men in the Cabinet and the thing looked politically dangerous to the Government at that time,so they just called it all off. In other words,there was no effort at co-operation at all. As much as we tried there.

I think the association of Government .with industry at that time was considered to be something dangerous that Government could not afford to have,vhat might be considered the taint of industry rubbintoff on -them and therefore they . preferred to go their own way and to play politics with the fisheries which,a~ I say,was one of the most d~trimental things which ever happened in this Province of Newfoundland as far as the develppment of the fisheries is concerned. Now the Canadian Salt Co~ Fish Corporation has been born. It has had a very good year.

It was launched at a particularly opportune time, they will never know how fortunate they were.Because of the declining stocks of salt fish,they had the markets wide open . to them, to go in and get higher prices. I have seen in the past similar circumstances where even the trade.who were not as well controlled of course as the Salt Cod Fish Corporation, but I have seen the price -~686

May 14, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 650 NC - 2 MR. EARLE: of salt fish vary as much as $10 a quintal,from a low to a high,but there is no product, I think where you can take as much advantage of in a year of shortage,and there is a great shortage of salt fish. The only question I ask on the Salt Cod Fish Corporation, and I wish them abundance 1,uccess and every success.. are they going to get the full co-operation of the fishermenl Because,without a product to sell, if they do not have anything to sell , the Corporation is virtually of no use,and the danger well may be that they will not have anything to sell.

If the shore fishery or the inshore fishery is not encouraged to some extent in the production of salt rish is not encouraged 1 they may very well be an Organization with a very heavy overhead and,believe me,that Organization has a heavy overhead. !f the ctiticisms,that were aimed at NAFEL in the old days,were aimed in the same direction at the Salt Cod Fish Corporation and a comparison of the overhead were made, I would not hesitate to bet a lot of money on where the expenses and the comparison · expenses would be today. very much against the Salt Cod Fish Corporation,in comparison with what was done in the past.

Because we were handling in those days upwards of a million quintals of dried fish and the cost per quintal was extremely low indeed. I remember sales efforts on this type of thing going through to their conculsion at far less than one per cent of the cost. Today,if you were to compare the cost of the Salt Cod Fish Corporation with what it is selling 11 venture to bet that the cost per quintal would be extremely high. It is only the fact that the Canadian Government I think are subsidizing. in some way or other, that a thing of this nature can possibly be a success.

Anyhow,I wish it every success because it is of benefit to fishermen. But I do hope that 1 in the same breath, they just do not restrict their efforts to the marketing of fish. There has to be more than that. There has to be a real interest taken in the ~637

May 14, 1971 (MominE) Tape Ho, 650 NC - 3 MR. EARLE: development of the fisheries and the encouragement of the fisheries so that there will be something produced to sell, You cannot do one thing and the other, you just cannot have an efficient selling organization unless you have a vast quantity of goods to sell. The larger the quantity generally ,the more efficient the organization, t_he smaller the quantity the less efficient. This may well be the fate of the Salt Cod Fish Corporation 1 unless the supply of salt fish does grow.

I can see the Minister of Fisherles looking very puzzled as he is following me, This is a conundrl.UII of the first order, how to get people to produce an item of this type. All the boasts about quality and everything else we hear today.we hear the Salt Cod Fish Corporation say the quality is going up, It may be in some respects, Lut the quality of the kind of fish that can get top prices is no longer there,because we are not producing it at all or in very, very small quantities. We are not producing the type of fish that used to compete with the Gaspe light, salted, cured. The amount of that is infintisimaL.

T_his is where,in these markets that are prepared to pay really high prices, this is the type of thing that we have to produce and 1 along these lines,somehow,a scheme must be worked out to encoutage our fishermen.

On the fresh and frozen fish industry,! think eventually that the trade will have to come to some sort of a marketing organization, !here are inherent problems in that because of the protection,of brands and the marketing organizations which they have ·set up in the markets and all this sort of thing, But you will only need another year or two~Sometime later on,which is bound to come,where there would be depressed conditions in the frozen fish market and the fishermen in the meantime,having been built up to expect reasonably.high prices for their product• lf it every goes back to the point that they suffer,! think the fishermen will be the first to demand that a proper marketing organization for fresh and frozen fish is also formed.

May 14, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 650 NC - 4 MR. EARLE: I for one would like to see that the preparations be made for that now, not -~ait until some calamity hits us. Always in an emergency it is too late to do these things sensibly. The time to think this out is when you are in good times not in poor times, When the markets ar~ prosperous arid when things are good, this is the time to make the preparations,because people have some mone_y to spend on it.

The cas~ has always been in the past 1 when it is a depressed industry and everybody is going broke, they cannot talk about proper organizations or anything else because they do not have the money to promote it. They never have had it. Then,when the thing starts to go up and things get good Iii again,they tum around and say;well, we do not need it now, everything is fine.~ But this is a silly way to look at the ' encouragement of the industry and it is now that we should be thinking about the development of the fresh fish industry.with proper marketing control. But just to finish off my remarks, Mr.

Chairman, on the whole fishing industry, the basis of any success in Newfoundland is the encouragement of two things, a greater quantity. the production of a greater quantity, and the production of a better quality of fish. We can build our reputation in Newfoundland on quality so that we can be unsurpassed anywhere in the world,because w~ are so close to the natural fishing grounds. But this has to be controlled all the way along the line, . right from the fishing boat and the fishermen's gear right to the time ~t gets on somebody's plate in New York or California.

I just cannot tackle this fish meal,It .is a big project and a big problem and it has to be followed all the way through. But then,in the meantime, while all these plans are working out, it will take years and years to get to a sensible sort of programme in the fisheries, There is one thing which is distressing me greatly.at the present time,and that is the lack of encouragement to the fellow who just wants to go fishing. I know that the hon.

May 14, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 650 NC - 5 ?fR. EARLE: Minister of Social Services will have an answer for this and quite honestly I agree with a lot of his answe~ I have to, because men must work to make a living. But people are caught now, as recipients of long-term assistance and short term assistance, some of these men are caught, expecting to go on where they could draw Government assistance and carry on with their earnings.

Far too much of this has gone on all over the Province for years, ~:ow the door hns suddenly been closed and restrictions and regulations are being tightened up to the point that men in my District are saying to me; ''well,we are all prepared to go fishing, but what is the point~_We cannot earn any extra dollars, so:the heck with itl I am not even going to budge, I am going to stay ashore or perhaps give:my,gear to my son or something,if he is interested,and let him go fishing." MR. NEARY: That is not true. That is not true. MR. EAJU.E: Well this is what they are saying.

I am only repeating what some of them are saying. Thi,; is what a great many of them are saying,unfortunately. MR.. NEARY: That is untrue. MR. EARLE: That is not untrue. I hope the Minister is right,because I think his motive is right. I am quite sure tha~ what he is trying to do is right. But how will you attain that after so many years of laisse~ faire? Whe,re there has not been a tightening up,it is going to be very difficult indeed. I wish him success in it.

I know he is go·ing to have a hard time with it, Actually a man must be encouraged to earn all he can then,if he cannot earn a decent living,let him seek welfare. MR. NEARY: May l ask the hon. member a question? Is the hon. member talking about people who are employable or people who are unemployable? Which group is he talking about? MR. EARLE: This is where the whole problem arises,as the Minister well knows. People claim to be unemployable or cannot work, medical certificate and all the rest of it, and very often •••••••• :;690

M~y 14, 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 650 NC - 6 MR. NF.ARY: Inaudible. MR. EARLE: Well the Minister knows as well as I do now ,standing on my feet,there are people in this Province today receiving long•term assistance and doing an enormous amount of work. MR. NEARY: Do an enormous amount of work? MR. EARLE: Doing an enoll!IOus amount of work. ~. NEARY: Then either the doctor made out a false certificate or the man is a fraud, MR. EARLE: Perhaps the Department is not checking accurately enough. Perhaps the Minister is not •••••• MR. NEARY: But it is the doctor who issues the certificate.

We can only base the long-term assistance on a medical certificate produced by the '\ client. MR. EARLE: The Minister knows. He is in the ·port folio that I once occupied and he knows how difficult this problem is. As I say. I wish him success in solving it. MR. NEARY: You know the man is ejther a chisler or the doctor is a fraud,, one thing or the other. MR. EARLE: Well I am all for catching chislers. MR. NEARY: As long as we agree. MR.

EARLE• All for catching chisler,. indeed I am., But I alaG, and I have said this many times; there are just as many on the other side of the fence,who sometimes are neglected.where they really need help. I have seen this and I have brought it to the attention of the Department on many occasions. I am all for helping people who are ill or who cannot work or cannot help themselves but I agree whole-heartedly that a man should try his best to earn his living,if the means for earning it is there. But there Qrl" all kinds of grey areas in this - you can talk on it for ages.

You know sometimes officials.who are not sitting on the spot ,do not always see problems a man and his family fF.ce, Because I have seen it in many cases,where men are committed ahead, they cannot

May 14, 1971 (Hominc) Tape No. 650 NC - 7 MR. EARLE: get supplies and this sort of thing. They have had fish in their stages which they cannot sell immediately nor realize on. It takes them ages. F.vcntually they get it, it is true, but it takes them a long time Ln the meantime they suffer before they can convince the welfare officer that they cannot dispose of this fish immediately and get help.

So in dealing with the Government, the wheels of Government tum exceedingly slow, as somebody said, and it is ·the wifortunate fellow,who is very often ignorant of regulations and is not in imediate touch with somebody who can advise him properly,that gets caught up in this whole mess All I am saying to the Minister, this applies to the Minister of Fisheries and the Minister of Social Services, that somehow or other this thing has to be watched very carefully, that people are not further discouraged or disheartened in trying to make a living.

If the o~jective is to help them to earn a livi~g,I am all for it ~ut,if it succeeds in any way in cutting off any ambition or any initiative •••••• MR. NEARY: A man_ on short term assistance is allowed legitimate expenses, allowable income. If he does not earn enough to bring him up to his entitlement 1we will pay him the difference. So there is a distinction here between long term and short term. MR. EARLE: I think I am a·s familiar with it as the Minister is but this is,as I said,a very grey area,where there are so many individual cases which have to be looked at.

Probably again, part of the problem has been that the Minister's staff is pretty well scattered. They are not always immediately in touch with the problems and this is where sometimes it falls down. But the only reason for mentioning this,that the encoura _gement of the fisheries is so vi tat· for so many reasons, particularly,as I said,in gi~ing the Salt Cod Fish Corporation something to sell,Sut even more important than that is taking the young fellows and the men and the boys off the streets or having them sit around on the wharves or anything of this sort. 3692

~lay 14 1 1971 Morning) Tape No. 650 NC - 8 MR. EARLE: If a man can work.he gets a certain dignity out of work. Re feels he is supporting himself and his family and that is the way in which he must be encouraged.So my words on the encouragement of the fisheries are not only vital fror.t the standpoint of huilding up the industry,they are even more important in the building up of _ the character and stamina and the mental health and the general well-being of our people.

This is all part and parcel of the same problem.and the Minister of Fisheries 1 coupled with the Minister of Social Services,has really a very 1 very big problem on .his hands. I hope that he can work it out. I hope that they both can work it out. But fisheries must take the dominant role.in this respect that,if we have an industry which can employ a large number of people, we must bend over backwards, we must sometimes stretch beyond what we would normally do, stretch it far more than we stretch ourselves, to encourage entrepreneurs to come in here sometimes to create things which are of doubtful valu~.

We must encourage an industry of which we know historically the value and which have every indication of being one of the real foundations and supports of our whole economy. MR. SMALLWOOD (W.R.): It seems to me that at least in Newfoundland the cod fish is a Provincial creature and the salmon seems to be a Federal creature, I think we are entering now upon the twenty­ third year of Confederation. I was just wondering, Sir.what the Federal Government bas done in the matter of clearing out obstacles on salmon rivers in Newfoundland, in the last twenty-two years?

How many rivers l wonder have they · cleaned out so that salmon can get up over obstacles? be natural obstacles such as falls. Most of these seem to I know that back in 1956 there was quite a water fall on the Indian River,down by Springdnle,but since that time a salmon ladder has been put on the Rlve~-undoubtedly there are more. I also know that some breedinr, grounds were made on the Indian River. I gue~s that ::iti93

~lay 14, 1971 (Homing) Tape No. 650 NC - 9 }IR. S!-fALLWOOD: was done by the Federal Government, That happens to be in my district, but that is not the reason I knew of it. I read about that in the papers. I have not heard about any other rivers in ~ewfoundland where the Federal Government have made new breeding grounds by dredging out the gravel~as it did down around the Indian River. As I say, we are now entering upon the twenty-third year of Confederation.

Even if the Federal~Government only took one river per year and cleared out the water falls.and that is much simplier than some people seems to believe it is. It is simply a matter.in my estimation.of bringing in some equipment to drill the necessary holes and put the dynamite in them and blow the falls down. It does not effect the flow of the river but it does make it much easier for the salmon to get up.

Yesterday I was reading,! think it was The Montreal Gazette; nr at least one of the Montreal newspapers, there seems to be a fisheries station somewhere in Nova Scotia, . in Halifax I th~, a fisheries breeding station, a salmon breeding ••••• AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. SMALLWOOD: No this was in Nova Scotia. I was reading this

article ~d it said that they were taking several hunderd thousands or possibly over one million young salmon and flying them in to certain rivers in the Province of New Brunswick, It must have been done,I would imagine, in water bombers because the new method seems. to be that they just fly in with the planes, come down over the water,about two hundred feet,and drop the young salmon, together with about six or seven hundred gallons of 11ater 1 all at the same time 1and that seems to be a successful and cheap method of transplanting young salmon to the rivers.

Now .I have not heard of anything like that in Newfoundland. The Federal Government may be planning to do that. As I say, I realize that the cod fish seems to be a Provincial creature and the salmon seems to be a Federal creature but nevertheless there should be cor.1111unication between the Provincial Department of Fisheries and the Federal Department

May 14. 1971 (Morning) Tape No. 650 NC - 10 MR. SMALLWOOD: of Fisheries. I realize that this is all in the hands of the Federal Department but nevertheless recommendation should be made, by the Provincial Department of Fisheries to .the Federal Department of Fisheries,about cleaning out some of the rivers in Newfoundland and by · that I mean, as I said before, blowing down some of the water falls so that salniQn can get up. I know that the one on the Indian RiV'er, it was quite an expensive dg they put there,but I think that is a counting station. They also count the t1almon going up. :695

May 14, 1971 Tape 651 (morning) PK - 1 MR. SNAJ,LWOOD: (W.R.) : If the Department of Highways can put roads into some of the isolated communities in Newfoundland, where there is nothing but rock,and dynamite and drilling, then I am sure that it is no great problem for the Federal Government, to go on some of the rivers in Newfoundland,where the salmon are being blocked from getting up,and do a bit of drilling and put in a few plugs of dynamite and blow down some of the falls.

I would sugr,est that the minister,through his department.recommend to the Federal Government, as I said, if only one river per year had been cleaned out since 1949, at least we would have tllenty-two rivers already cleaned out­ and if one river per year had been restocked with salmon, in that period of time we would have had twenty-two rivers cleaned out and we would have had twenty-two rivers restocked. Now I now that,a few years ago, the Federal Government restocked some river here on the Avalon Peninsula.

I think _ it was out around Long Harbour, T,hat is the only one that I personally have heard of, there may have been more. But one think I am sure of, there could not have been many more, because I am sure that everytime they do something they put it on the radio and in the newspapers and we read about it. That is the only one I have heard about, where restocking have been done in the Province of Newfoundland,and that is out around Long Harbour somewhere on the Avalon.

I know that possibly a few more rivers may have been stocked to a cer~ain extent, and I guess, in the last twenty-two years, there have been more than the Indian River Falls.which has been rectified. , But there cannot be too many, because it would have been on the radio and it would have been in the newspapers and on the television. Personally, I think that the Federal Government is not doing its duty in this Province with respect to the salmon fishery.

Sure, they make regulations once the salmon gets out in the waters, rhey seem to be left on their own, but once they get out into the salt water. they seem to be now coming ~p with their rules and regulations. If they can do this type of thing on the Mainland, -it is time for them to do it down here in the Province of Newfoundland. :]6S6

May 14. 1971 Tape 651 (morning) PK - 2 HR. SMALLWOOD: (W.R.): What really got me worked up was yesterday to see this article,where all these salmon where being transported from somewhere in Halifax, somewhere in Nova Scotia,to the best of my recollection,where they seem to have a salmon breeding station. I do not think there is one in the Province of Newfoundland. There could be, but I have not heard of it. They have them in Nova Scotia and they seem to have them up in New Brunswick. but none in Newfoundland. Why? Are we suppose to be not a salmon producing country? I would say.

Sir. that it is time for the Provincial Department of Fisheries. if necessary. to go out on their own and go and make surve7J~of the rivers.of the salmon fishing rivers in Ne~.foundland 1and make recommendations as to what falls should be eliminated and what rivers should be stocked,and steps should be taken to get the Federal Government to do these things. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman. just a few words.

I cannot hope to expand:on what was given by the hon. the member for Fortune Bay. but the few remarks to which I would like to refer,which were made by the hon. the MJnister of Fisheries last night~ First of all, the references were made by the minister to a diversification of the Fisheries in this Province. Certainly, we are,this side are very. very delighted with this attitude by the Government. I would like for the minister to expand a little bit more on the plans of the department,with respect to the diversification of fisheries in this Province.

This has long being a policy and a position taken by the people in the official opposition and certainly it is a programme which is most co11111endable and one which must be proceeded with. The Minister mentioned the fact that eels were being taken from the Maritime Provinces, I think to Europe,for processing. It seems to me that I have also heard that eels were actually being taken from parts of the South Coast of Newfoundland. taken over to Germany and processed and sold in the markets of the United States. Which bEings us to the topic of fish processing itself.

There is certainly a great potential here for the processing of our fish. our r,reat natural resource of this Province. our cod fish,and also potentially the scallops and mussels, shrimps, crab, which we have and we can have and we can develop. S-697

f-'ay 14, 1971 Tape 651 (morning) PK - 3 MR. MARSF.ALL: It certainly would be a great impetus to the employment of this Province,where we have the situation now \ifflere the unemployment figures . . are so high. It is something that should be proceeded with,and proceeded with very great haste. Another topic, Mr. Chairman, I would also agree with the hon. member for Green Bay with respect to the Minister of Fisheries and the Department of Fisheries taking a firmer hand with the Federal Department of Fisheries concerning the salmon fishery.

Also, I should like to point out as well, I do not know what representations have really been made by the Provincial Department of Fisheries to the Federal Government, but certainly very strong ones ought to be made, ought to be made continually , and the public ought to be made aware of representations with respect to the old question of control of our fishing grounds. Confederation is the great blessing of Newfoundland,we are told,with which we will agree.

It is certainly one of the blessings ta Newfoundland, has to be,1968, when we got a core of people who went up from this Province advocated this position, got Mr. Davis, the Minister of Fisheries,to take the position that he has taken and a1·e now calling for. We all should ~~ calling for enforcement of control of our fishing grounds and the ultimate extension of these over the Continental Shelf. We have a situation now, for instance, where the Prime Minister of our Nation is going to Russia to discuss the fishing situation,mainly with reference to the West Coast of this Province.

Certainly, I feel that before he went,that it ought publicly to have been brought strongly to his attention that we expect, that this Province expects him at least to giv~ the same attention to the Eastem portion of the Nation as to the Western portion. Indeed, in addition to our members of Parliament, we as a Province should be fortifying their efforts by pressing the Federal Government to extend the control of the fishing areas, as far as one can extend them, as far as they can be extended, ca-incidental with our obligations, Canada's obligations under her international treaties.

But there is no doubt about it, there is no doubt about the fact · that this is necessary for the full. rrnrrit I"\ 6 ... 8 iJ :,

Hay 14, 1971 Tape 651 (morning) PK - 4 MR. MARSHALL: of this greatest natural resource wh-ich we have, which is the fishing industry. The minister touched on many topics last night, But there are also a few other questions,which he did not talk about, that I would like to ask him questions about. This Province was promised by this Government such things as electronic and suction pump devices, which will be used to catch fish.

Again, people of the Province were told that the deep sea fishery will be of very great size and there would be about 200 draggers add trawlers,each measuring about 500 gross tons, which would be engaged in the deep sea fisheries. Then, again we were told that large quanities of fish will be shipped away from Newfoundland,in fresh form,in great cargo planes. Most of the fish will be on the way to the markets within a day or so after being taken out of the water. That would have been a great help to the fishery, obviously.

Then, again we were told that all fishing boats, ships of 60 tons or more or even much smaller,will be built of steel. They will be much stron~er and much more dependable than wooden boats or vessels. They will be built in Newfoundland shipyards. These were promises, Mr. Chairman, which were made by the Government of this Province,in 1966,to the people of the Province.

We see in these estimates,.. the reason I bring them up now. is,we see in the estimates which are provided,substantial total increases in the vote for the fisheries, which we would all welcome, which is going to be used for the purpose of implementing some of the programmes that were announced by the hon. Minister of Fisheries at the Development Conference earlier this year.

I would hope that these promises will come to frution,because it is quite obvious,when one looks at, and I have just taken a few of the promises that were made by this Government to the people of th~ Province, electronic suction pump devices, this type of thing, I would hope.There is an election coming up in this Province now and I would hope that the hopes and aspirations of our fishermen, the fishermen of this Province.will not be played with for the purpose of a political ploy,and I would commend - MR. P. CANNING: Mr.

Chairman,! mean this to be a question, I understood the hon. member to insinuate, I think, if not directly,accuse the Government

May 14, 1971 Tape 651 (morning) PK - 5 i'IK. CA~-!NINC: of ~akin~ promises in 1966 regarding boats. MR. WIN!-OR: ~lodern boats, modern equipment. HR. CANNING: I think that is what he meant. Is he aware of the number of boats built in Newfoundland by fishermen or built for fishermen under Government aids 7 like the highest bounty ever paid in the history of Newfoundland or the history of Canada? Is he aware that we have been adapting the modem aids like fish loops, or even more sophisticated than the old fish loop? I mean,is he aware of what has been happening in the last four years?

Is he aware we are becoming modernized, with modern equipment? Is he aware that the facilities are there and the bounties are there, the loans are there? Sizable loansl Is he aware that any fishermen in Newfoundland today, any fishing skipper can have say an inshore dragger or longliner ·.or a multi-purpose ship built at a cost of $70,000 or $80,000f His only requirement is probably to come across with cash to the amount of one-seventh of that or less, maybe. That is taking advantage of loans, bounties and direct subsidy from the Federal Government.

I mean is he aware of all of this? noes he know it is going on? hh. MARSHALL: Certainly I am aware that things have been done for the fishermen of this Province,by the Govemment 1 I am not denying that, but what I am saying is this,that . thete were promises made, there were wild promises made,in 1966,to the fishermen of this Province. MR. CANNING: Tell us what they were. MR. MARSHALi.: Electronic suction pump devices will be used to catch fish. We are talking about 200 deep sea trawlers 1 etc. The millennium was coming for the fishermen of this Province. We have not seen it.

It has not arrived yet, I am just appealing to this Government,at this stage of the game where we have the unemployment-that we have,for the purpose of political ploy,please do not in 1966. with the fishermen, as the Government did in certain instances MR. COi.LINS: Mr. Chairman, when one comes to fisheries,it seems just about everyone in ~ewfoundland or every Newfoundlander is an expert on the fisheries. Possi.hly that is the cause of many of the troubles and the problems facing the industry today, Ref ore I get to the few remarks I meant· to make, I would ~700

May 14, 1971 Tape 651 (morning) PK - 6 MR. COLLINS: like to draw attention to the fact that yesterday,when I asked the Minister of Fisheries what representation he had made to the Federal Authorities with re~ard to having the licencing restrictions on salmon fishen,,~n removed, he indicated to me that he had made representation. I followed through with a supplementary question,asking him if he had made respresentation to the Federal members (NJwfoundland Federal Members). He told me that he had gone to the horse's head and not to the other end of the horse.

If there was anyone to be classified or to fall . into a classification of the other end of the horse, then it must be the Minister of Fisheries,who permitted this very discriminatory regulation to be introduced in the first place. in I have also established~discussions Vi.th some of the Federal Members in Ottawa that the Minister of Fisheries knew nothing of this regulation.

It received no representations from Newfoundland or otherwise. ~artly, I suppose . because he was out in Western Canada engaged in the Royal TouL On his return to Ottawa, the day before yesterday~ the Federal members brought this matter to his attention and,hopefully,the matter•will be resolved. MR. MURPHY: Did you say he had no.representation at all? MR. COLLINS: He had no representation,up until the day before yesterday,from anyone in Newfoundland, although we were told that representations were made and that they were made to the horae's head.

As I said, when we refer to the horse's head, we know that a horse has two ends and if there is anyone to be classified as, .. Vitness any other end of the horse 1 then it must be the Minister of Fisheries in Ottawa. MR. MURPHY: "It is no trouble to make a horse's so and so;" you say. HR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, much is being said about the problems of the fisheries in Newfoundland. I suppose the problems vary from area to area.

The problems faced by fishermen on the North ~est Coast probably are different and they are different from many of the fishermen on the North Fa~t roast Some of the problems might be found in each of the areas, but generally fishermen are faced with different problems,in a •different area certainly different problems in the different regions. ~701

Hay 14, 1971 Tape 651 (morning) PK - 7 HR. COLJ.INS: 1 am very much concerned. as 1 know most people in Newfoundland are I with the fisheries problems on the ?~orth Hes t Coast, tJiose are far different and of greater magnitude than the problems which might face fishermen on the South Coast where it is just about a yearly operation, pretty organized,from a point of view of catching fish, reasonably !ell organized from a point of view of processing fish, a~thoueh possibly there is something that can be said for further processing. But on the North t:ast: Coast, Mr.

Chairman~ where we had fishermen/loggers and fishermen/carpenters and fishermen/construction workers, those people are being faced with a real problem.It has been there for years and very little has been done to alleviate the situation. In fact the situation has become more serious down through the years,because. one time a fishermen fn Notre Dame Bay 'or Bonavistia Bay or Trinity Bay or White Bay could go fishing for a month or two months or three months,depending on the season. the winds, the seas and what have you.

If he had some success,all to the good, if the fishery was more ot a failure then he could always wire to some contractor in Bishop's Falls or Rattling Brook or Badger or Hillertown and com~ up with some work in the woods, ~~ich would supplement his earnings for that particular year. We all know that the woods work has been drastically reduced because of automation. We all know the problems facing the pulp and paper industry in Mewfoundland. And of course, all of this then complicates the problems which the fishermen are faced with in terms of earning a livlihood.

I do not know what the minister has in mind for those people on that particular area of the coast. I believe the Government's policy,down through the years.mainly has been centered around resettlement. In other words, rather than take measures to help alleviate and in lieu of their problems facing the fishermen, the emphasis seem to have been on the moving of fishermen themselves, through the resettlement programme, which was the adopted policy of the Provincial and Federal Governments.

We have heard the Premier say on numerous ocassions tha~ as far as the provision of jobs in Newfo1mdland through industrial development is concerned, I forr,et where he drew the line now, but the line was somewhere along from :;702

May 14, 1971 Tape 651 PK - 8 MR. COLLINS: Port Aux Basques to Clarenville. which means that the rest of the Province has been left out in terms of industrial development. So if the people are not to find jobs around Gander. Grand Falls and Botwood, Lewisporte and Glovertown, if there is to be no industrial development ~n those areas, l-that happens to the fishermen who occupy the various communities around the coast.' That was the source of employment for them in the off-season.

Unless there is some ~reater efforts being made, some new development, stra~egies adopted. then the the fishermen are going to hmre a very difficult time indeed. Mention has been made of some of the pre>l>lems. I suppose one of the major problems in the fisheries is the fact that ' our resources are rapidly depleted by foreign draggers 0 foreign vessels, ~703

r·:iy 14, 1971, Tape 652, Par,e 1 -- aph ~ornjnp. !'R. COLLINS: various types fron different countries. Huch has been said about this need for 1nternational conferences of different t)'l'es, the need for a conference of the sea to be called. t)othinr seer.s to have been done really. Certainly, if we are going to think in terms of the fishermen continuing to niake a living from the sea, then we nust protect the resource.

I realize that this is mainly a federal responsibility but certainly the Province must bring pressures to bear,both publicly and otheniise,on the proper authorities,to make the best arranpe~ents they can uith the international countries concerned,to insure that there is a supply of the raw material ·. There is a Select Committee of the !louse now,as the Chairman knows,whose duty it is to look into the possihility of setting up some collective bar~aining rights for fishermen. The Conunittee is still sitting. Certainly.Hr.

Chairman,there is a need to improve the position of the fishermen,in terms of what they derive from the industry. I have always been of the opinion,and I still am, that the fishermen are not gettiny, their just and due,in terms of cash dollars for their· product. We have seen instances where fresh fish - cod block• for instance,dn the American ~arket,werfdown as low as twenty-three, twenty­ four cents a pound. We saw where the Federal Government stepped in with a sul?sidy of one cent - two cents per pound, ·to keep the industry going. to keep the fishermen fishing and to keep the fish plant workers processing.

We have also seen that while that was going on fishermen were getting anywhere from three to five cents per pound,for their product,from the processor. Last year,while cod blocks,lthe price 'of cod hlocks,went to as hiJ?h as forty cents per y,ound,which is a consiclerable increase, 'irie find that the return to the fishemen was still around five and sb. cents per pound. Certainly.l:'r. Chain11an, when we have just about one hundred percent increase in the Jlrice at the market leveJ, then if r,704

1~y 14. 1r71, Tnpc 652, Pa~e 2 -- apb }'orninsi;. there is any reason to be used at all, it is certainly rlain to all of us that fishcrr.,cn's price should be increased proportionately. We l:now that many of the fishinJ!: firms 111ight have had bad years and Mirht have suffered financial losses and so on and so fo~th, but we Pust also consider that fishermen have bad years,in terms of low production and low prices, and they have also suffered losses. Certainly there :Is a case to be n,.ade for higher prices to fishermen. How it is r,oinp. to be 1:irour,ht about ,I do not know.

I would be interested in hearin~ what the r:inister 11-ight have to say about it. Something has to be done to increase the returns to the f:f.shL'nr.cn. ~oroethinr, has to be done to insure that the fishermen have a ch:ctnce when they ~o to work~ There are enough imponderables as it is. Ice conditions in the spring, ~nds and sea in the fa11,competition fro~ other sources. So,!Jlethin~ has to be done to try and · improve the situation in terms of some guarantee for the fishermen around the coast.

I am interested in heariny. what the minister has in mind in this regard, and I will have something else to say as we get to the various headings. i!R. ~IURPHY: ?-!r. Chairman, I do not profess to be any expert on the fishe_ries, but being a member of the Bouse of Assembly I try to become as conversant as I can with what is happening. With reference to the fisheries generally,in the Province, we are told that twenty to twenty - five thousand people are touched either directly or indirectly with fisheries.

I understand,and I may be a bit wrong here, that some twenty­ of the forty-one districts represented in this House are fishing areas. ln my eight years in this House,! have tried to assess to the best of my ability just how this Government regards the fishery. This year we are going to have a great upsurge in the vote.to fisheries. It is r,oing to be sonethin~ over $7 million. Whether it is coincidence or not that this is the year where we will all be out poundin~ the beat, looking for people to support us and our policies.

When we compare '70 - '71 l1here the vote was $2,292,000., and '69-'70 was $3,400,000. 3705

t~y 1~, 1~71. Tape ~57, rage .3 -- apb ?!orninf!. mien we loot, had: over the years 1 at the great fisheries confere.nces, ~he !'lC'ttinr. up of the great Fisheries Developnent J\.uthority, ,,:e sometirr,es wonder, Sir, whether uc are being perfectly honest with the fishermen ,,:1th reference to their welfare. Perhaps the main times we hear fisheries discussecl are when the r.reat fish tr.erchants are bcinr criticized, severely criticized for what they have done to the lot of the fisl,ermen.

I Fonder if this is all truth, or is it just propaganda to try to turn a-certain group of people against another r.roup of people? It seems to me, 1-fr. Chairnan, that throur.h the years this Government - the policy of this Cover=ent has been to use tactics to try to separate, if you like ,.various segments of our society, to try to set one against the other for political purposes. rerhaps this House of Asser.,bly itself mi~ht be the hest example of this type of bir.otry and hate that is beinr. carried on.

I · think we had a tremendous exatr.ple of the same thing in 1949,where we had the toiling masses fightin~ to free themselves from the fabulously rich ~erchants. I do not know where these toiling masses are today. There are many thousands not even given the chance to toil. "They are better • off;';;o'l"teone says. Well, perhaps that iE the attitude of Government. They would rather feed you with welfare than give you a job to do. I do not think the hon. member really means that. I think the natural instinct of any hLU11an being is to work and try to provide a livlihood for his family, to the best of his ability.

We are speaking of fisheries here. The hon. member for Gander has mentioned an incident that took place in this House yestirtlay, with reference to the salir.on fishery. I was present on the phone when the call was made to Ottawa, and it was definitely stated, definitely, without any grey areas at all, tl~at Hr. Davies had not been approached by this Government with reference to any salmon re~ulations. D"~ __ .!,1JJ:SOF:.:_ I thinl: 1in fairness I that this is not correct. J have the CC'py of the teleeram that the hon. the rremier sent to tl1e hon. :-•r. Davies 3706

vny 14, 1°71. Tane ~52, Pape 4 -- apb l-1orning. as cnrly as the fourteenth of February. This is not correct. I would not want this to get about 1 that I actually told a lie as far as our ·cor.imunication with the hon. Uinister of Fisheries is concerened. It is entirely wronr,, I am sorry. 1 "TI. n:RPHY: Well, if it is wronr, wronr,I withdraw. I a!'I 1:Tan enouyh I apolor.ize, · •I withdraw. If I am do to~that, but . when I am infor!'led by a McT"l-er of Parl:far:ent that the four P.C.m~hers had held a meeting with l'r. Davics.,on his return from the West Coast ,and he informed them that ••• AN HO?:.

"'F''f.f.P.: (Inaudible) 1T-. 1TRPITY: Very r,ood! Very good! Who are you ~oing to believe, the hon. minister or four Opposition mer,bers? A Minister of the Crown,speakin~ as a minister, not to be believed? tIB.. 1'U"RPHY: All right! The matter was brought up to me.

I am only speakinr of members, llewfoundlanders, who are sent to Ottawa to represent this Province - various areas of this Province who are~I might say (I do not know if I can use the word"despised~ but they are certainly not recogni~ed by this GoveTIU11ent here, wbo absolutely refuse to cooperate to any degree ~Tith these same members, These men, since 1968, have fought the battle, ttot only for the fisherl'len. Mr. Jack ~arshall,on the Northwest Coast,is the only one I have heard mention the rape of our fishery,from this House. 'MP... llARBOUR: I have been fighting for the fishermen since 1949.

I have been firhtinp. the battle for the fishernen since 19.49,continuously. ?"R. ?-'l:'P.PllY: That is the type of Newfoundlander we want. That is what ~,e want. That is one from the other side. I have heard the hon. member for nurgeo-LaPoile ••• l-'R • BARBOUR : And I have achieved many thi~gs for the welfare of the fishermen and their families in Newfoundland, all the l.•ay to Labrador as well as !;ewfoundlantl. VR. ~'llFPHY: What else could you expect from n resicent of St. John's 3707

?'ay ll., 1~71, Tnre 652, T'nr,e 5 -- aph ~'orninr.. Cf'ntrc>, that 5-'rc;,t district that I hnve the honour to represent. '!TI • r.,\r. rein.: ···-- --·-- · • 'T'. ~1l"PPFY: . -- --- ___ .. "r . r.!'. rr,C'rn: '" • 'T,-,:'JlY · I am still a f.ornvistonian. And still a r.rcnt supporter of the present city rnc~~er • I ll'if 11t lie in your district, but I ~o r.ot vote for you. !'urinr . the years,s1nce 1%8 narticularly, it has been 1:rou,ht to the ~ttentjon of the people all over C'nnarla just what has heC'n h:-irr,f'nin~.

As I said; the hon. rnetrl-er for tur?-eo-L:-1poile on n,any ocr.asfons stood in this House and spoke of the night scene w1'.en he would looJ .- out fro111 Port aux B.asriues and it was l:llre a city, where these forcitn trat-:lers l-.'erc out rnpinf our fishin~ areas, l·'.e have "r. "arshall, as I snid. on the Eest Coast and the.rest of his collear,ues in the House of Col'llcons brinrin1 before the people of Canada just was an injustice is be:1.nr done to our Newfoundland fishemen. These are the ones ,rho fought the hattl e to try to retain the seal fishery. No one can· deny that.

I ,;.Jill repeat it a~ain, I have said in this Y.ousc many tir.es,when this incident arose, that "r. Davies, Brian J>:-vies, in this saMe House, the hon. ?-'inister of Fisheries,who sat rir.ht there next to the ?~inister of Vinance, and I stood on my feet about six days in a row and addressed it to the Hinister of Fisheries.who was the hon. t 1r. Lnne at. the tiu;e; was this Government r.oinp. to take any action? I was treated with silent conteM:pt.

Not worthy of an answer until one day tl1e hon. minister stood up ,I presumed to answer n,e, and the PrPmier looked over and he said ,. sit down l'ax,' and ~•ax sat down. A few short weeks ago, five years too late or four years too lat<', tl ,c rrer .~ier ruts on a great extrava!?anza, ~oes to the icefields - .,ncl nc-,-· hf' :f s r;oinr to fij!ht for the seal fishery. Locking the barn door after the l1orse is gone. They have babies on this one.

It is very :frport:-!T)t to r.nve babies on the bacl•: of the Bulletin. nut die you notice the ec1:f.tion before?" We rlicl not have tl1e poor cl,ilc!ren up for adoption. ·we had the Pret'lier up for election. rictures of the T'rcricr at the iccfields. You l:n0t-~ l'r. Chain,an, let 11s l,e very, ver;r serious on this ~708

-•;,y 14, l 0 71, Ta!'e f.52 • Par,e 6 -·- apb ••orninr.. matter. m1en we talk of the fisheries, we talk of an industry that affects most people in this Province. He talk of the fishery, fishery products. Even in this past month I had occasion,travellinr outside the City of St. John's, at one large hotel in Conception Bay,, where we< dror!"'ed ln to h~ve some lunch and ordered fish. "Sorry~•· There was no fish there. We had chicken lep;s, chips, so on and so forth. In the town of Bonavista,three weeks ago,! picl--:ed up a menu and I ordered something that I thoup,ht I mi!!;ht lH-e. It wes breaded cod fillets.

Now this hotel is about three rriles from Bonavista, on one side. ?-fP... BARF.OUR: ------ ?1R. MURPlIY: ?-!R. EARnOUR~ !-'R. MJRPHY: 1-'R. BARBOUR: Two and a-half. We had the correct measurement, two and a•half. Including the Barbour Poom. Including the Barbour Room, and on the other side, Catalina. !-!r. Chairman ••• 1-m. MURPHY: Just a moment, I am sure that the hon. member is goin~ to give us a speech of about two ho:1rs and a-half on the fisheries,when I am finished. MR. BARBOUR: Would the hon. member yield for a moment? Would the hon. member yield for one tiny, weenie m01'ent? MR.

MURPHY: For my favourite constituent,! would yield for a month. Ml! .• BARBOUR: !-fr. Chairman, I only wish the hon. Leader, one of the hon. Leaders. There are so many of them over there that I have lost count of them now. l-~. }lURPlI'l: You have been led astray. ?'R. BARBOt"R: I only wish that the hon. Leader, the member for St. John's Centre,could have been in the Barbour Room on Saturday night,at seven o'clock. I only lrlsh then that he could have accompanied ~e to the Oran~e lla11 1 in Bonavista, when I addressed 350 fishermen.

If the hon. r.ember wants cod fish, cod ton~ues, caplin, lumps, queen crar 1he can have it on the Menu in the ~otel,next to the Barbour Room1at tonavista. 3709

:-·.iv 111, 1971, T;ipe 652, Page 7 --- apb }'orninr,. '1'. !-'T'RPl!Y: There you are, everything is strai~htened up. I orckrcd this breaded cod fill et. There was a p.roup of us at the t;ihlC'. I tasted it and I did not lil<e the taste, there ~-!as sot"ethinr. .1bout :ft, so I ast·ecl, perhaps the most expert gentlelT'an on fisheries in this l'rovince. the nc:iet Prern:fer of the Province ,as a matter of fact, ~·r. Frank "oores ahout this bit of fish. He said, 'I will <le'r"onstrate 110\J to you 2~out this.

He '\i."ent into the kitchen and he brought ::1.n a carton .•• 1'A. !'ll!!PHY: t~o one is allowed in the kitchen,only the staff. /1.nd the Premier - the next Prer.1ier has a priority to go into the kitchen. lie brought in the carton •.• PP. B/1P.E0L'R: That will be the foii;gy }!onday or foggy Friday,when the next Prenier - he will never, never be Pre1T1ier. I doubt if he will ever get elected to sit in the hon. House. YP.. }'l'RPHY: There you go now. There you go. There is a statement. I hope that has been duly noted by the press.

If the hon. n,embcr ouly knew what I know about the support that the outdoor leader,! call him. We have three of four inside. He is the outdoor leader. !-'R • }'UR PHY: :'P.. BARBOUR: A great team. A great team. If he only knew what I know so far as the elections in the Bonavista - Trinity - Conception ridinr-s are concerned, ?!r. !'oores had better go to some other district. Do not go in either of these districts,and there are seven districts in the riding which he represents.

We have not seen him. l!e has not sat in the House of CotTirnons since January month. 1·'!'.. 1·1URPl!Y: Are we finished with the Electoral Office vote nowJSir? It is one o'clock, !·1r. Chaim.an, if I may draw your attention to the fact. I may get a chance to get a word in sometime during the afternoon. ~'r.. Cl!AJF.'!/1~:: It being one o'clock, I do now leave the Chair until 3:('I() r.m.

:i--11,• 14' 1971 T:ire ~:o, f.53 Pare 1 'J'he !louse resut".ecl 11t J:no !'.!-'.: cn~~ITTTF.F. OF ~l'P'PJ.V: "r. ChairT"11n, Tn '"Y view there is nc, cc--operation between r,ur electecl r,arlil!.!"ent here 11nd our elected representatives in nttawa. Yt sc,rt nf J!rieves l"e to see a wec!r.e hein11 driven hetween our federal l"e~hers of rarlia~ent and tie govern~ent here in Xewfoundland, just for the sake ~f political exrediency.

As I said earlier, I think this Province has had its fair share and perhaps more than a fair share of bigotry, hatred, ill-feeling, whatever you may want to call it,over the past twenty-two years. Those here on this side of the House,and I have been here eight years, sort of feel that if we stand to speak at all, if we bffer a suggestion, we are being somewhat less than loyal Newfoundlande~ I do not know just how far this feeling prevails in other provinces.

From my experience, I think there is an on-going feeling of co-operation between Ottawa and the Provincial Parliaments-, notwith­ standing the political creed one wishes to support. I do not know if it is just common here in this Province and I might add in this City, Personally, I feel that there should be co-operation between not only the Provincial body and the Federal but also between municipal, I just state this now for the record that when I was first elected to this Ho·use of Assembly.in 1962 as a sitting St.

John's member, I contacted the St, John's Municipal Council.suggesting that we should get together regularly, the six St, John's members,(at the time there were three Liberals and three Conservatives- but that did not bother me) with .council, I have written three other letters since that time. I aIJ just talking about the feeling of co-operation, Sir. ~'hat does this have to do with the 1te~ under discussion? !iR. ~!LRPliY: Perhaps if I may be pemitted one second. The feeling of the down-town establishment,of Confederation Building,getting the feeling that -is happening in this House of Assembly.

That is the only point that I wanted to make - hut, Sir, if this Pruvince is to develop. en this

May 14, 1971 Tape no, 653 Page 2 :tr, Murphy. On this Pish0rirs vote, we arr lend tn believe, we dn believe quite sincerely that if Newfoundland is not only to prosper but to maintain what it has, our fishery must be a success not only in the total amount of fish that is caught but also the benefits that accrue to those who catch the fish. This ye.ir an<l last year, the latter part of last year, in fishery matters, I think we have attained,you could almost say, a crisis stage.

I am referring now to the upsurge of fishermen's associations or fishermen's unions, I do not wish to go into it too fully but I know that the new union has applied to Government for legislation. There is a select committee on it. When that committee is ready to make its report, then it is up to us members in this House to deal with this legislation. It is the House of Assembly that will pass that legislation.

But I think it is a growing feeling, Sir, that has been spread abroad through this Province,that no matter what manner of work you are engaged in, whether it is fisheries, whatever it is , it is the great, big merchant on top that is trying to destroy the workmen. Now, Mr. Chairman, it is my feeling that no industry, no business, as a matter of fact,no House of Assembly can function while there is a wedge driven between two sides, In the fishery, we must have the fishermen, we must have the merchant, working harmoniously.

As far as our fishery is, concerned, Sir, and particularly the fresh fish plants, I would say that the great majority of these peqie are carrying on through monies loaned through this House of Assembly.

For that reason, Sir, I feel that we, when I say we I refer to the House of Assembly or the Government, should be in a position to let not only the fishermen but the whole Province know.if the fish plants are making millions at the expense of the fishermen. r:ecause, Sir, it is my feeling. right or wrong, that if we are pumping r.,oncy into fish plants we have the moral, if not the legal right, to steo in there. 'If you are going to use oor money, you are goinr. to use it for thP- benefit of ~,.., 12

May 14, 1971 TapP no. 653 Page 3 Hr. Murphy the whole community, not only for the plant operator himself." nut, Mr. Chairman, quite honestly I do not feel that that is the full story. I think everybody or everyone has his problems to maintain a plant to b 0 best of his ability,to make thatplant as productive as he Cl'ln, He deserves, I would say, a profit for his efforts,not exhorbitant profits but a profit. I have not seen all the fish plants in this Province. I have seen a great many of them.

Here I am going to get back to the story that I was trying to tell before we adjourned, Several members have asked me privately what happened at that famous lunch I had in the hotel in Bonavista. Well the story is this, Sir: I ordered this fillet and I did not like the taste of it so, as I have said, Nr. Moores,who is perhaps one of th., greatest experts on fish in this Province ,said(I will check it out.' 1 So he checked it out, I was right between two huge fish plants, Bonavista Cold Storage on one side and Mifflin's,I think.on the other side,in Catalina. I was between the two. MR.

BARBOUR: They are very important •fish plants, They employ anywh~re from 700 to 1,000 people. MR. MURPHY: Yes, sir, If everybody eats the fish that I had, they will not be employed verv long~r This fish came from National Food Products, in Nova Scotia. I ordered fish and when the package was produced, of the fish that I had eaten,it was National Food Products, I believe it is Halifax. I am not sure. So the hon, member has enlightened me as to how many people are working in the plants at the present moment. I would say that if we all ate •• MR, BARBOUR: MR. MURPHY: MR. BARBOUR: MR. MURPHY: MR.

BARBOUR: MR. ~IDRPHY: MR. BARBOUR: , . What time was this? What year? What year? What year is this? What year? I am asking you what year you visited the place? I am just getting some information. I asked you what year? It was 1971. It was just four weekends ago. Sir, just for one moment.

May 14, 1971 HR. ~IURl'IIY: HR. BARBOUR: MR. t-IDRPHY: Let us follow •• Just a moment. Tape no, Let us follow procedure. 653 Page MR. BARBOUR: Just a moment. Just a moment. Just a moment. I want to explain snmething. HR. CIIAIRl!Afl: Order please! HR. l·IDRPIIY: Mr. Chairman, please. MR. BARBOUR: I want to explain something. NR. CIL\IR.'-IA.'l: Order please~ MR. BARBOUR: Order please! MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, as I said earlier, the hon. member professed to be perhaps one of the greatest experts on fish.

I am sure he will keep us occupied this afternoon,for about an hour and half after I finish, talld.ng about the fishery. But, Mr. Chairman, the point I was making is that here I was - I thought I was between two fish plants but I was between three. There is ,,anther one at Char1ottetown. MR. BARBOUR: Four. There is al:.o,. MR. MURPHY: Would the hon. member make some notes for me. He can pas.; them over and I can carry on. MR. BARBOUR: Let me just say this. There is one at Charlottetown. There is a fish plant in Bonavista. There is a Queen Crab Plant :h.Bonavista.

I imagine you were refering to the fishery products in Catalina. I know the geography, HR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, •• MR. BARBOUR: I am getting a lot of help,do you see that? MR. HUR.PHY: I have been taken on a guided tour. I just hope that I am not being derailed from the point that I am trying to make and that is, how can we keep our own fishermen working when we are using products from another province? It would not happen with eggs down there. I checked the eggs. They were from the Egg Marketing Board here in Newfoundland.

Mr, Chairman, as I said earlier, when we looked at the vote this year, coincidentally it bein~ election year, of something over $7 million for fisheries, ~714

May 14, 1971 Tape no. 653 Page 5 Mr. Murphy: we look back to 1970-1971, $2,290,000. We look back b 1969-1970, $3,400,000. It is rather more, I think, than suggesteJ. Perhaps we are looking for the fishermen's vote again ·in this present election. Mr. Chairnan, in this llouse on a couple of occasions I brought up . problems facing the fish plants, not as far as capital is concerned but as far as tryin~ to i;ct enough employees to man their plants and their trawlers, due mostly to the fact of the lack of housing.

I refer particularly to the plant at Fermeuse, where they could employ eighty or ninety more people if housinr "~ere supplied. Now we all know that housine; is not the cheapest commodity that we can get today, Lut it is an absolute necessity and I feel that this Government, her Hajesty's Government.should go overboard to satisfy the needs in these particular areas.

In most cases, and I speak again particularly of the Southern Shore,the Fcrryland District where the road beyond Capy Broyle is almost impassible, where·these fish plants have to truck all their supplies over very rough road and,as a consequence,doing great damage to vehicles and adding considerably to the overh~ad of these plants. If we are indeed, Sir, going to consolidate our efforts towards the fishery, we could at leas~ Sir,appoint a Minister of Fisheries. Do not treat the Department of Fisheries as just an adjunct, a branch of a department~ but as a department.

In this Province today,with all the talk of Fisheries, what it means to the economy of our Province, we have a minister in this Province today that is only acting as Minister of Fisheries. Our budget, as I said earlier , is perhaps the smallest of all departments. Our loans in various areas do not compare anywhere near loans under Farm Development or other areas of Government. In this buiJ:ding,I would say that this Fisheries Department should be one of the largest, with members,representatives of the fishermen themselves, with some part of that department where they can meet regularly.

I would say, Sir, that the Department 6f Fisheries should be decentralized to some extent where in our great fishing areas ,.like the North West Const, Ilurin Peninsula, other parts of the Province, where there should l>e established some sort of a ~715

!lay 14, 1971 Tape no, 653 Page 6 Mr. Murphy. permanent fishery i:nstallation,with officers there that can advise on the many matters that turn up very frequently. I believe, Sir, that this Provincial Government should be more actively participating with Federal Government. The Federal Government have jurisdiction over a great, great part of our fisheries. I believe, Sir, that if the Governnent in Ottawa, at this moment or during the past few years, were anything but Liberal, I an sure that the storm and the flak that we hear raised on the floors of the ~louse of Commons, by our outstanding P.

C. members there,would be nothing compared to what would be happening in this Chamber. This has been the attitude, Sir, of this Govemment,not only towards Fisheries in Ottawa but every other department. "we are deal quietly{we hear. ''we are dealing very quietly. That is how we are getting ll~e work done.. We are dealing very quietly." But, Mr. Chairman, again 1wben we hear what is happening aroun.d this Province - the hon. member for Fortune Bay was talking about the herring fishery.

I was in Bay L'Argent one evening and the gentleman's home I was in was telling me that at night time the draggers came right in to the •-:harf opposite his premises. How can our Newfoundland fishennen survive,if fishermen from all over the world could come almost 3716

Hay 14, 1971 Tape no. 654 Page 1 Mr. Hurphy. in on the rocks, in on the beaches off our Island home and take not the bread out of our mouths but the fish out of our nets. So, Mr. Chninn.:m, to finish my few brief remarks, I certainly hope that this great fisheries programme that was founded at the great Disarmament · Confercnce,as My hem. friend from St.

John's West describes it, that all these thinis that were promised in this, Sir, will be carried into effect as soon as possible, And not only for the benefit of the Liberal Party in thjs upcominP, election, Sir, but for the benefit of these people, these fishermen, (I said this morning that, I think, twenty-eight of our forty-one districts consist of fishermen of some kind) that they may receive, Sir, the benefits and the protection that we, as elected members,are obliged to give them and to fight for their rights as well as the rights of anybody else. It is a moral obligation, Sir, on our part.

I ..am::gure that in this department that it will be one debate that the silent twenty-seven or the silent twenty-eight would like to say a few words upon, We heard over the years many fisheries prograrm,es expounded. But, Mr. Chairman, in all truth and honesty, what great programmes could have been carried out? Over the past five, six, seven, eight, nine years,our average budget has been something in the area of $2.5 million.

I believe, Sir, that the fishermen themselves will be the judges,when the time rolls around for this Government to give an account of its stewardship to these people who, a~- I said earlier,represent 20,000 or 25,000 of our working population. MR. BARBOUR: Mr. Chairman, I am just going to say one or two words. The hon. member and Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition referred to twenty-eight members on this side of the House, silent members who,he sai<l,would no doubt have something to say in this debate. Mr.

Chairman, I hope he does not include me, because I have been, Sir, fighting for the fishermen of Newfoundland and Labrador for over twenty years, night and dc1y, around the clock. Even before I became a member of this hon. House of Assembly, at my own expense, I sent many telegrams to Ottawa, many letters 3717

Hay 14, 1971 Tape no. 654 Page 2 ~IR. :IAP.3()t.:P-: to O~tawa, cade manv telephone calls and paid for them out of my own pocket. ~•m. ~:Ci~?HY: You were a P. C. then. ~IR. B.,P.RJlr::t: Oh, no I was not a P. C, Oh! no·, 1-:hen I was a P. C. • I was blinded. I could not see t:1e lir,ht. Eut I see the E~'it nQ'.,.. I see the lipht new. :;ow t::en how in God's na::--.? he can include !';e in the t1.renty-ei~ht is beyond me! I feel a little bit hurt O\"er that.

The hon. rie:?ber kno·..:s that no r:an has tried to do so r.-,uc:i as I hRve in uplifting the lot of the fisherr:en in the field of 'Cner::plovment Insurance, i.':ich because of rr.y h"hite Paper to Otta·~·a is playing an irr.portant part. You will see that on the first of July this year. ~Ir. Chairman, I would like to say socething else. He refers to the National Food Products.which was the kind of food that he says was not fit to eat. If it was four weeks ago, ~r. Chairman, I can assure this hon.

House that all the longliners, eleven or twelve of them in Bonavista South,were bringing in r,reat cathhes every day,from 1,000 pounds to 26,000 pounds per boat.

If he could not get fresh fish,well then he could have gone to the management, I ari sure they would have gotten it for you,because there are plenty of codfish in Bonavista which has to be brought in fresh every day. :,ow just let me say this in closing: I think that this Governtr.ent has a r,reat fishery policy, I do not think there is any honest, hard-working, .fishensn who co~es before the Loan Board, if he has a case, a gentleman's case, who cannot ' get assistance from the Govern!!'..ent1 that is the fisheroen of Kewfoundland,so far as the Fishery Authority and Loan Board are concerned I know whereof I speak, because I have had r.:anj, many fis:ier:nen cor.:e to me.

I have gone to the:, ,c-n thr fourth f toor of this buildin!c!. They have rone ai.·ay 1-ith a snile,hecause they have rotten what thev had cooe to get. Surely then .ho1o1 can you sav that very little has been done for the fishemen of :;ewfou :,c!:and: I a!'1 referring to tile six. There is no six . in Ottawa. There are only five Tories in Ottawa. Eo-.- can you f:.::!t six; Where has the sixth .... ,. ~ I,) tJ .l (J

May 14, 1971 MR. lll\RIIOUll.. man h~cn? Where has he been? AN !ION. MEMBER: "The Shadow. " Tape no. 654 Page 3 MR. lll\RBOUR: He has been trying to drum up support. But the support he is goinr, to drum up is going to be very little. I challenge him now to oppose me in the historic district of Bonavista South • When the votes are counted, I will bring back the bacon. ~rn.. ' MURPHY: . It will be announced tomorrow that Moores and Barbour will be running in Bonavista South. MR. BARBOUR: I would love that very, very much. When the ballots are all counted, I will win. He will lose.

Because when it comes to ability and capability and experience and intelligence, I am away ahead of him. Because I have had to do what the fishermen have had to do. I have had to 'do l·!ha t the working people of Newfoundland have had to do. Let me tell you this, Mr. Chairman, that the people from all over Newfoundland and Labrador, when I was fighting for the cause of the fishermen, which I am doing at the present moment,~ am getting their support. Why? Because they know I came from a family who fished all their lives. I know what it is to fish offshore. I know what it is to go to t1'e Labrador.

I know what it is to fish off the Funk Islands. I know what it is to cut the throat of a fish and to split a ·fish and to spread it on the flake. I know what a water he>Tse is? I doubt if you know that. I have been elected twelve years and I can assure every hon. member of this House that when I visited my district on the weekend past, the reception I received ) both in the Barbour Room, and in the Orange Hall 1 was so exciting, was so great that my heart was gladdened,was so much that when I went to Musgrave Town to speak to the Salvation Army, the Seventy-Fifth Anniversay, words flew out of me.

I did not get up with a piece of paper, "mum, mum, mum, mum," I do not talk that way. Mr. Chairman, I just had to say this: I think, Sir, that this is a real Government that is trying to be real good to the fishermen of Newfoundland. nR. CROSBIE: Hr. Chairman, this is certainly a hard act to follow. I will say this 1 Mr. Chairman, that when the hon. member for Bonavista South and I were candidates :;719

'.fay 11., 1971 Tape no. 654 P.ir,c 4 }1r. Crosbie, together in the Liberal LeadcrshipConvention, I can testify to the fact that he could really heave it out of him. The words then were on wing. But the hon. gentleman got on wings , too, When his Leader re-entered the race, he quickly flew out of the race. He left me all by myself 1 witJhout a travelling campanion. There were only two of us first, the two fearless ones, tt1cn the hon. minister over there. MR. MURPHY: When did the hon. Minister of Education come in? HR. CRC!SBTE: Oh, he came in and dropped out at the same time. Mr.

Chairman, there is no question about it that when Unemployment Insurance in Newfoundland is written up in the history books,the name of Pickersgill and Barbour are going to be together. AN HON. }@!BER Barbour and Pickersgill. MR. CROSBIE: Pickersgill up in the main

chapter of the book and Barbour down as asterisk at the bottom,to describe the support that you gave that concept in your district. I said, an asterisk. The hon, minister does not know what an asterisk is? In fact the hon, member for Bonavista South is so persuasive I have almost forgotten what I was going to say. The fish th~t the hon. Leader of the Opposition had down in the hon. member's district was not a haopy sight! as he has told the hon. member. If the hnn. member is really going to do something about his district, the hon. member should chastise the hotel there for not serving fresh fish.

That is the point. Mr. Wilbur Rideout used to run it. The hon. gentleman knows about him. That is the gentleman who is going to get the nomination, yes. MR. BARBOUR: I Blll not afraid. MR. CROSBIE: The hon. member •• MR. BARBOUR: I am not afraid of anyone in Bonavista South. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order plcas ·e: MR. BARBOUR: He is putting words in mv mouth, Mr. Chairman. HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman. just to bring up a point that the hon. Leader of the Opposition made: lie caused me to look at the estimates, Sir, to see how many employees the Dep~rtment of risheries have. The hon.

May 14, 1971 Tape no. 654 Page 5 Mr. Crosbie. Leader did not say how many. The Department of Fisheries has thirty employc('s. It is the second smallest department. The Department of Labrador Affairs has nineteen. So out of 7,100,(whether it is relevant or not, it. is just an interesting statistic ) r,overn~ent employees, only 30 are in the Department of Fisheries.

Now that does not mean to say, of course,that the department is understaffed, but it is something that would make you wonder,that in a fishing Province like ours, of 7,100 Government employees only 30 work in the Department of Fisheries_ the second smallectdepartment. The largest, of course, is Health, 2,669. Of course the responsiblity is shared with the·G~vernment of Ottawa. Now, Mr • Chairman, a few general remarks on the fisheries. ·l think it is ·only fair,as an impartial observer,for me to congratulate the M.

P.'s that this Province has at Ottawa!on the job that they are doing in bringing to the attention of the people of Canada the fishery problems of Newfoundland. I aan be quite impartial about this. I am not a Conservative. I am not an official Loyal Liberal. I am an expelled Liberal, an expelsed Libe~al. In fact, I am an eighteen foot beef, Liberal. So I can quite impartially say that we have M. P. 's in Ottawa who in the last two or three years have brought to the fore in Canada the needs of the fishing industry, not only of Newfoundland but at least of Eastern Canad~. They are still doing it today.

It is stupid to say otherwise. It is stupid to say that they are just a noisy five or six •. They are five now, because one is the Provincial Leader of the Conservative Party. It is silly to say that they are accomplishing nothing. They are accomplishing a great deal. They are keeping the pressure on the Cabinet, the ministers at Ottawa, on Mr. Davis, on the Prime Minister. They are keeping before their eyes the fishery problems of Newfoundland, the problems in the seal fishery.

Just yesterday I noticed in trepaper that they were questioning the Prime Minister on whether he was going to discuss in Russia the question of the depletion of the fishery rcsourc ~721

May 14 • 1971 Hr. Crosbj e Tape no. 654 Page l- · of the llorth Atlantic. I am no expert on this but the papeissay thllt,it must be true that the Russian Fishing Fleet is takinr,, I think, half the fish that is taken now in the North Atlantic. The minister can correct me, if I am wrong. If it is not half the fish, certainly it is a tremendous quantity of fish. Yet the Prime Minister of Canada does not have on his agenda to discuss with the Russian leaders, when he is in Russia, the problems of the fishery on the East Coast of Canada. So, Mr. Lundrigan and Mr.

HcGrath, Walter Carter and the representatives in Ottawa arc questioning them in the House of Commons. They questioned them in the House of Commons yesterday. They are going to today, to try to force Mr. Trudeau to put this on his agenda. Now is there anything wrong with that? MR. MURPHY: Yes, they are Tories, dirty Tories. They are not allowed to do that. MR. CROSBIE: I do not care what kind of Tories the~are • There are clean Tories. There are dirty Liberals. There are loyal Liberals. There are real Liberals. So the adjectives do not matter. The point is that they are doing a valuable service.

We have a minister in Ottawa too. He is one of our M.P.'s, a minister. Everybody agrees that he is doing a very credible job too. So I see nothing wrong with saying that we have M.P.'s in Ottawa who are doing an excellent job in Opposition. We have an M. P. in Ottawa who is doing a good job in the Cabinet. But I do not agree at all with this criticism of the Federal M. P.'s we have in Ottawa,that they are too noisy. What is there job to be? ls not there job to bring to the attention of the Canadian Government the problems in their districts, the problems of Ne