Time: 8:00 p.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MR . CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order . We are on Resolution 72, 3. (h)(l) . The Member for Churchill. MR . JAY COWAN: Thank you , Mr . Chairperson.

At the time of the break for Private Members' Hour, we were discussing in gene ral ities the MacGregor incident and , specifical ly , we were talking about the mushrooming of petro-chemicals into our environment and if they are being used by industry , they are then necessitat­ ing some means of transport ation . I believe - ana I think that any anal ysis, even a cursory one , of the situation would lead another to the same assumption - that we are going to see more and more accidents and incidents of the nature that we have seen in MacGreg or.

The fact is that we have in just the past few weeks seen a number , including one of lesser significance, but significant nonetheless in the fact that it was an unadvised and unplanned release of a hazardous chemical into the environment just in northern Manitoba in the incident involving the hydrogen sulfide , alt hough I'm not certain of the impact of that ; I'm not certain of the amounts released . It is something that we will have to de termine as more information becomes availa ble . The point I am making is that we are going to see more and llOl"e and more of these types of accidents and incident s.

As a matter of fact, I am looking now at an

article from one of the Winnipeg papers . It is a Canadian Press Release , March 20 , and it says: "The four western provinces are expected to account for about three-quarters of Canadian National Railway's total volume growth over the next five yea rs , CNR president , R.E . Lawless , said yester day .

He told a meeting of the Western Transportation Advisory Council that the world demand for western re­ sources , such as potash and petro-chemicals • • " - and I emphasize petro­ -chem icals - ". • • will likely remain strong and these commodities are ideally suited to rail hauling ." As a matter of fact , they are probably ideally suited to rail hauling. One has to , when discussing this whole question, discuss other options , but I think that one falls back again and again to the fact that rail hauling is probably as safe as any other course of action in transporting these chemical s.

The fact is, we are in store for more and more transportation of petro-chemicals and more and more spills of petro-chemi cal s, because there is a relationship there that one cannot deny . As a matter of fact , we saw articles in the paper last week , or two weeks ago , saying that the railways are spilling about 1 percent of the chemicals that they are transporting. So it is a major problem.

I don't belie ve that I am tel ling anyone anything that they did not already understand when I make that statem ent , but I do want to emphasize that when we are dealing with this problem, we ha.ve to deal with not only what has happened in the past, but what could happen in the future and may well happen in the future . I would ask the Minister , then, to deal with the specifics of the MacGregor incident , because I think it is important to dete rmine what happened there so that we may be able to , in the future , de termine better means and ways of going about this.

I would ask the Minister at what point the Emergency Measures Organization was first noti fied that there was a spill at MacGr egor . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister . HON. HARRY J. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , to the Honourable Member for Churchill. At 2:25 a.m. March 10 , 1980 , CNR Transportation Control Centre Dispatcher Mr. - 2503 -

Tuesday, 15 April, 1980 Pac h, reported to EMO that a derail ment had occurred , on their line at Deer Sid­ ing , which is the description of the site at MacGrego r. At 2:3 0 a.m. Mr . Dave Ediger of the Environmental Control Branch was advised of the derailment and the presence of the chlorine tank was reported at that time , which obviously was an err or. That was done by EMO . Contact was then made with the RCMP to be assured that they were aware of the situa tion , again made by EMO. At 3:3 0 a.m. CNR Dispatcher Mr .

Pach called again to advise that the tank car did not contain chlorine but rather vinyl-chl oride . At 3:3 5 a.m. Environmental Control Branc h, the same Mr . Dave Ediger was advised of the new situation . No further information had been received at this office and no specific re­ quests for any type of assistance had been received at that particular time . Our EMO officer from Brandon was advised of the situation and was requested that he now attend the scene and has contacted the local authorities and has learned that no assistance in any form was necessary.

Now that's the chronological order of the events at MacGr egor. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Churchill. MR . COWAN: Further to that Mr . Chairper son , what time was it when the first EMO body made it to the scene , the person representing EMO , to actually visit the scene of the derailment? I have all the other figures on a time scale , I would like to know that last one so that I can fill it in. MR . ENNS : It was the following day , after having been advised by the Environmental Branch that the situation was not of an imminent hazard to the surrounding community.

Of course that's what I suppose points up to some of the problems inherent in the structure , that while the Environmental Branch corr ectl y assessed the situation as being not subject to explosion , not subject to imminent danger to surrounding community , then relying further on company official s for methods of curtailing the leakage in the tanks , that with the benefit of hind­ sight , the request or the presence of the Emergency Measures Organization to make sure at the earliest possible moment that the municipal officials , the community.

But recognizing that this didn't happen in a community , it happened a mile or so outside the community , that an appropriate information system was in place at the very start of the problem , and had that been in pla ce , I think we perhaps could have avoided some unnecessary concerns that the cit izens of MacGregor in the ensuing days began to voice. MR . COW AN: I'd ask the Minister then, in instances such as this, who is responsible for det ermining whether or not an evacuation is necessary? Now before I put that question to him I'd just like to make a couple of comments in regard to what he has just said .

No . 1, he is talking about us now enjoying the benefit of hindsight . Well , when dealing with the carcinogens , Mr . Chairperson , we don't enjoy the benefits of hindsight until some 10, 15 to 20 years lat er, so I'm not certain that we can , at this point , make any categorical statements although I don't want to be an alarm­ ist about it .

I do want to point out that we are dealing with a carcinogenic substance here , a cancer agent , and that it does take a certain amount of time , there's a time lag between exposure and between the period at which one would deter mine symptoms and would determine that there was actually an overexposure . So we don't enjoy the benefit of hindsight yet , nor will we enjoy it for a number of years at the very minimum. The Minister said that had there been an information services put in place, that we would have been able to deal with some of the unnecessary concerns of the residents of the ar ea .

And I have to agree with him, had there been full ana complete and unbiased information coming forward at all points during this epi­ sode, that there would have been some concerns that would have been unnecessary.

I would not go so far as to say that all concer ns , and I'm certain that the Min­ ister did not do that , but I would not myself go so far as to say that all con­ cerns run - and again one will have to wait a substantial period of time before being able to make that judgement , al though there is less likel ihood of actual dangers occurring to the residents because of this spill than there is to the workers - but the fact is that concern at all points should have been necess ary , - 2504 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 198 0 some concer ns, by all parties involved and I would include the provincial as well as the federal government on this, and others also . I would ask the Minister then , once it was det ermined that there is no danger of explosion and that ·in their opinion there was no danger of overexposure , who makes the decision as to whether or not an evacuation should be necessary? And who makes the decision if an evacuation is not necessary , as to whether or not contingency plans should be drawn up and held over in case an evacuation should become necessary? MR . ENNS: Mr .

Chairman , I'm sure the honourble member will concur that a decis ion to evacu at e, by force of law , citizens of Manitoba , leave their homes , is not arrived at lightly . The provisions that are provided for under The Emergency Measures Act is that the Cabinet passes an operational order and this is something that is also being looked at . This procedure is adequate in the case of emergen­ cies that come at you slowly, such as a flood , as I mentioned ea rlier.

As the member will reca ll, we had the authority under the operations• order that is passed by Cabinet - the Director of Emergency Measures - to call for the evacua­ tion of residents . We did not have to evoke that order . Even in the big Red River flood , we called upon and we received the voluntary co- operation of the citizens of the Red River Valley , who evacuated in large numbers, totally just about , except for agreed to persons that were left to man the now empty communi­ ties.

But the actual procedure , to answer the member's question direc tly , it is the Director of Emergency Measures, under an operations' order that is passed by Cabinet , who has the authority to order evacu ation . MR . COWAN: I'd ask the Minister then if this matter was ever brought be­ fore Cabinet for their consideration previous to the March 17th announcement that there would be an evacua tion procedure or cont ingency evacuation plan drawn up? MR . ENNS:

Whereas Emergency Measures upon their involvement on the scene have made provisional advance prepara tions for an outside possibility of evacua­ tion , the best possible advice that was given to us throughout the spill at MacGregor was that no evacuation would be necessary , and that matter never came before Cabine t. MR .

COWAN: The were relying upon the Measures Organizat ion. ures Organization with Minister has mentioned on a number of occasions that they best possible advice being brought before the Emergency I'd ask the Minister who was providing the Emergency Meas- that information or the best possible advice? MR . ENNS: Mr. Chairman , that affords me the opportunity of replying to some of the initial remarks in the direc tion that the honourable member was taking as we adjourned at 4:30 . I let it be very clearly understood that Emergency Meas­ ures Organization is contained as it is within Government Services .

It never will and does not intend to gather about itself on staff the 101 experts that might be necess ary for the 101 different types of accide nts , emergenc ies , that we may face. The procedure is fairly cl ear, the ones that the Emergency Measures fol­ lows. Depending on the nature of the accident , we look to the expert advice of the lead de partment .

Again , I ref er, because of the greater experience in this ar ea , if it has to do with water , the Department of Natural Resources with the Water Resources Division in it are in fact the experts that predict the potential level of flooding that tell us what we can expect under these circumstan ces , that indicate to us when road traffic becomes impas.c:able .

When bridges become unsafe , we would look to Highways personnel to tell us that , and we would look to the experts who built the dikes , for instance , around the ring-dike communities of the Red River Valley to tell us when we have to evacuate because they fear for the safety of the people .

The same procedure follows, in the case of a chemical spill that involves potential initial hazards to the environment and environment mat­ ters , we look to that department as playing the lead role in providing us with the expert advice - wherever they get it from, from within and from without - but being the department that is principally charged with the responsioility and hav­ ing the expertize in their department to tell us how Government Servic es , or in this case , Emergency Measures Orga nization , should respond to the accident , and we - 2505 -

Tuesday , 15 April, 1980 would be advised by them and would await that advice that , yes , there was a poten­ tial hazard to the cit izens of MacGregor and that we should put our evacuation order into ef fect . MR . COWAN: Thank you , Mr . Chairperson .

The Minister is saying , if I am interpretin g his comments correctl y , that are accepting the advice of the lead departme nt , in this instan ce, the Environment Management Departm ent , categorical­ ly , that the advice as it comes to them stands alone and that they are not seeking advice from other agencies that may be able to provide them with assistance and suggestions. Am I misinterpret ing the Minister? MR . ENNS: No , the member is absolutely correc t, to do otherwise would be to invite utter chaos .

You either have some respect for the advice given to you by the department that is specifically charged with the responsibility in a parti­ cular area , or you don't. I couldn 't conceive operating any differently . Again I know the honourable member is talkin g about chemical spills , but who other than the engineers that built the dikes, or that operate the floodway , should I go to when I'm trying to assess their 'recommendations and their forecasts about poten­ tial flood dangers .

There are as many weather forecasters or predictors on the street that offer fortuitous adv ice , but I don't believe the government has any choice but to rely on the department that is principally charged with this speci­ fic responsibility .

Now I would as sume , and I am happy to note that in the instance of the chemical accident at MacGre gor , the department did not solely lean on the advice that it was getting from within but indeed brought in eminent experts from Montreal as well as utilizing the understandable expertiz e;; of the owner of the chemical to glean the widest possible source of information as to the kind of reaction they should be making to that particular incident . MR . COWAN: Do I understand the Minister corr ectly , Mr .

Chairperson , that either the Department of the Environment or the department responsible for Emer­ gency Measures Organ ization brought in experts from Montreal to provide them with assistance in this matter . MR . ENNS : Mr. Chairman , I don't wish to speak and cannot speak for the Department of Environment , but it 's my understanding , having met the professor involved from McGill University of Montreal , that is precisely what they did . MR . COW AN: Thank you , Mr .

Chairperson , I was just wanting to get this absolutely straight in my own mind that it was the department who brought that individual in , that it was the department who selected that individual as being an individual that they would MR. ENNS : Pardon me , Mr . Chairman , it was the Department of the Environment . MR . COWAN: Right . Thank you , Mr . Chairperson .

I would ask the Minister then if he could indicate if he feels that it is advisable in a case like this for either his own department or the Department of the Environment to contact recog­ nized author ities in transportation accident s, such as Chem-Trek (?) , such as the CTC 24- hour emergency number , that has been put in place to deal specifically with spills of hazardous chemicals , transportation spills of hazardous chemical s; or the United States Coast Guard Agency which has a computer set which can immediate­ ly punch out a synopsis of what has happened and from there punch out a projection of what they view would be the potential path that that particular cr isis or incident or accident could follow.

MR . ENNS: Mr . Chairman , I think in the development of a state of prepared­ ness , Emergency Measures Organization utilizes all kinds of agenc ies and sources for information in order that they can have the highest state of preparedness in place. Some of the agenc ies that the honourable member mentions , both in this country and other count ries , are again matters that I would think that the Depart­ ment of the Environment would have to undertake to pursue . I want to make it - 2506 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 plain, Mr .

Chairman , that it' s not conceivable that the Department of Government Services Emergency Measures Organization can cease its responsibility in atte mpt­ ing to duplicate or in-house , provide the whole range of experience and expertize that is called for in attempting to cope with some of these accidents - what we are expected to do , and we will be doing our best to do that , is to so structure ourselves that we can , within the shortest possible time delay alert the lead department in whose area of concern an accident occurs , that they have their experts on scene , offering immediate advice , who then in turn start the wheels in motion for bringing whatever addit ional help is required .

EMO's job is to co­ -ordinate the whole effort and , of course , perhaps one of the most important roles of EMO is - and I acknowledge in the instance at MacGrego r, it could have been handled somewhat better in the important process of providing information to the general public but even more important to the specific community involved , so that they know as accurately as possible the nature of the emergency they 1 re dealing with so that no unnecessary exposure to hazard is being invited , but on the other hand no unnecessary alarm and panic is being spread which can , in many instances , cause an equal amount of inconvenience and difficulties .

MR . COWAN: Following upon the Minister 's last comments, does the Minister , Mr . Chairperson, belie ve that any unneces sary exposure to this harmful chemical occurred as a result of the MacGregor derailment , either to workers or to the general public ? MR . ENNS: Mr . Chairman , I don' t feel that I am qualified to answer that que stion. MR. COWAN: Following upon the second part of the Minister's state ment , does the Minister believe that any unnecessary panic was generatea as a result of this spill at MacGregor. MR . ENNS : Ye s, I believe there was, Mr .

Chairman , in the sense that some families felt compelled to leave their otherwise comfortable homes , in what in Manitoba was still the middle of winter ; that there is undoubtedly some concern that women who are pregnant have , as a result of a very irresponsible speech and state ment made in the House about the imminent abortion of their children as a result of the exposure , I call that highly irresponsible . I call that as danger­ ous possibly to the mental well-being and the anxiety that is being caused , and that is not a question .

That anxiety is there as compared to the big question mark , as to whether there was any exposure to the chemical that was hazardou s. You see , Mr . Chairman , there is absolutely no evidence - absolutely no evidence at all - that any pregnant woman in the community of MacGregor suffered or will suffer any ill effect from that chemical spill .

But as a result of the way this was handled , there are women who are carrying babies for the next four or five months who are concerned and who are anxious , and who in that anxiety in itself may cause or may be the cause of greater harm to the successful birth of that child than the possible exposure to the chemical . And I say , that kind of infor­ mation has to be a concern to governmen t; it has to be a concern to persons who are responsible for the actions of government and their officials. MR . COW AN: Yes . Would the Minister , Mr .

Chairperson , be more specific as to the irresponsible speech to which he is referring? MR . ENNS : I am referring to the speech made by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge , the Liberal member of this Chamber . MR . COWAN: Yes , thank you , Mr . Chairperson.

Well , as I've said throughout these proceedings, both publicly and within the House , I am not an expert in the area of vinyl chlori de , and theref ore do not wish to make any expert opinions as to medical effec ts of vinyl chloride exposure on pregnant women, and others , in the MacGregor area , al though I would assume that if all the informatioc that we have got to date is correct and in fact full informati on, full disclosure of the facts , that those women would have very little to fear . Again , not being an expert I don't want to be held categorically to that state ment , but knowing some - 2507 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 198 0 of the studies and having gone through some of the studies , I think that is a fairly safe state ment to make , and if we can do anything to allay their fears , then let it be done . On the other hand , one does have to realize that vinyl chloride exposure has been linked - under different circumstances - but has been linked with birth deformities, with miscar riage s, and that one has to bear that in mind , and that information should be made public .

The manner in which it is made public is very important , ana I think the Minister realizes that now at this juncture and perhaps realized it before and was just caught up with the events as they occurred and couldn 't get a handle on what was happening . But the fact is , that sort of infor­ mation can best come in a responsible way from those who have access to the information-giving process.

And in the future , alt hough I would hate to see an information service used to provide either inaccurate or incomplete information , I do be lieve that if that information service is set in place so that it can provide full, unbiased and complete as well as factual data , that people will avoid the sort of reacti ons that we have seen at MacGrego r, and I think that that is as important as planning for an evacuati on.

But one has to realize that it is the gove rnment 's responsibility to provide that informati on, and it is also the government 's responsibility to ensure that the information is provided in such a manner so as to be perceived as being cor­ rec t, complete , factual and unbiased .

If the opinion is that the government is only rely ing upon one source - and I don't want to finger any one source in this because I don 't think that 's purposeful at this moment - but if the government is relying upon only one source or two sources , both of which might have a vested interest in the process, then the public perception , justifiably , so will be that perhaps they are not getti ng totally unbiased opinion. Whether that is a fact or not, the perception will be there .

Couple that with the fact that there is a tendency on the part of the government as there was, in this particular instance to my way of thinking , to downplay the hazards associated with the particular problem, then that will compound the public perception that they are being fed information that is perhaps not the best available evidence , or the best available information. So in that instan ce, there will be a vacuum that is created , and this is what happened in MacGre gor .

There was a vacuum that was crea ted , because we had com­ ments coming from the Minister of the Environment and from CNR right from the beginning that firstly the hazard was a fire hazard . In other words, because it was first thought to be chlorine there was a mind-set put in place, that we are deali ng with a Mississauga-type hazard and in fact we were not . And at that point , once there was no fire , which fortunately there was not, then people tended to believe immediat ely that the danger was over yet , and they were told .

They were told by the Minister in the House and publicly , that the primary danger was � from fire . The Minister was not talking about some of the other dangers , which I � believe he should have . Because had he been the one to voice those dangers , had he been the one to voice those concer ns , people would have said , "Well, that 's good . That man is concerned . That man knows about which he speaks and he is concerned for our well-being and he 's tel ling us the full facts , and therefore we can trust that iridividual ." That was not how it happened in this instan ce .

Then in my opinion, as we got round further and further into this - and if I can just aside for a moment , because I think it 's important when talking about this item to try to examine all the impacts - there is a standard mechanism or process by which people react to these sorts of spills.

And I could read. it from literature for you , if you wish, to show you that it is not my opinion only but that it is an opinion of others , but that is that there is an initial reaction on the part of the people involved in the spill imminent ly , such as the CNR in this case and the chemical manu facturer in this case , to downplay the atte ndant haz­ ards . They have very good cause for doing so. No . 1, CNR does not want people to think that they are behaving in a less than admirable way when it comes to transport ing hazardous chemical s.

They want every­ one to believe , as I woula in their place, that everyth ing is under contr ol. Ana the fact is , they 'r e only spilling one percent of the chemical , so leave it up to others more qualifiea to make the Judgement as to whether everyt hing is under control or not. But they have a vested interest in downplaying the incident . - 2508 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 The chemical manufac turer , any chemical manufacturer - and it could be anyone - als o has a vested interest in downplaying it because they want their chemical to have the best possible public image, naturally ; so they have to sell it, and if it gets a poor image they can't sell it because people say , "I don't want that stuff in my community" . Now in the instance of vinyl chloride it's very difficult to say , "I don't want that stuff in my community" , because it's part of our everyday life and there is a necessity for it , alt hough some think there is more necessity than others .

But the fact is, I put a plastic cap on my coffee , perhaps I don't need to , but I make use of vinyl chloride so I am not going to be the one to say , "I don't want it in my community." But I do want the safest possible circumstances if it is going to be in the area . That 's an aside again , I' m getti ng off the subject , and I don't mean to . The point is that there is a tendency on the part of the vested interest to downplay attendant haza rds.

If you rely upon those vested interests for the bulk of your information, you are going to be presented with a biased picture , not to say that it is not factual or incorrec t, just that it's biased . It may well in­ deed be not completely factual or not corre ct , but the fact is it is going to be biased, no matter what . With that information provided , you are then going to , inadver tently , maybe so , downplay the attendant hazard .

That creates a situation , a vacuum, whereby if a pe son does go in and says there is a major hazard here , okay , that the media will pick up on that - and I don't blame the media for doing so because that is part and parcel of their trade and they have to do that , and they will, for the sake of making this situation known, because there has been an initial reaction on the first part to downplay , they may perhaps pick out the more sensatio nal state ments that an individual makes ; not to say that those statements are not completely true or factual , not to say that they are , but the fact is they will pick out the more sensational statements because of the way in which the pattern has unfolded .

When that happens , there will be a distrust in the public's mind , and when there is a distrust in the public's mind , I don't care how hard you scramble , you are not going to turn it around on that issue alone ; as a matter of fact , you won't turn it around for quite some . I think that is exac tly what happened in this in­ stance. I think that distrust is still out there and probably , to my way of thinking , it is a healthy distrust , because one has to , if they do anything at all in regard to environmental haza rds, one has to question exi:.ensively how we deal with them.

So I would just hope that the Minister , when he talks about an Information Service and his collea gue , the Minister of the Environment talks about , "We have learned what our mistake is in this case ; it was that we didn't have an informa­ tion service in place ," that they are not talking about an information service that feeds vested interest stories to the public , that they are talking about an information service that people can call up and get unbiased , factual , and com­ plete fac ts. I welcome , I commend the initiative on putting those information services in place right away .

I will reserve judgement on how it works unt il we actually have a number of cases upon which to examine it, but I am hoping, in a most non­ -partisan way, which is a difficult way for me to behave , but I am hoping in that way that you are successful in that task because you have to deal with these prob­ lems that are going to become more and more prominent in our everyday life .

I .would ask the Minister then - and I am going by his March 17 statement that was made in the House - when he put in place a cont ingency evacuation plan arrang­ ed by EMO for the town of MacGregor and farms in the ar ea , was that the first time at which that plan was in place , or was that the first announcement of that parti­ cular plan? MR . ENNS : Mr .

Chairman , normal practice for EJV10 officers are well in ad­ vance of that specific deci sion made by the operational order that would bring an evacuation about , well advance in that , EMO officers do much of the preliminary work, that is , to secure places for patients in the hospital, for instance, to be transferred to adjacent community hospitals ; to be concerned about where those persons that are not mobile or that are housed in senior citizens' homes , that they have immediate places . All of this was done by our EMO officer , Mr .

David­ son , in co- operation again , calling on the resources of the other departm ent , in - 2509 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 this case the Department of Health as far as hospitals were concerned and the Department of Housing , MHRC , in terms of senior citizens ' housing accommodations. This was being done on March 15th , in advance of any stat.enents that I made in this House . This formed the basis of that statement that I could make in the House that contingency plans in the remote possibility thst an evacuatiori order would be called for were in fact proceeding . Mr .

Chairman, I appreciate the Honourable Member for Churct ill 's abid ing inter­ est in this matter but , you know, he does, I think , not do full justice to the situation that we have in Canada . I think we can, in some instan ces, without at any time taking a satisfied attitude about what is happening , but the member is aware that the previous federal administration was well on its way to enact ing a fairly comprehensive act deal ing with the transportation of hazardous goods .

I was pleased to note in the Throne Speech that the present admin.tstration is not defer ring that piece of legislation, indeed is giving it some priority , that the governmental responses - and I say this of all governments of all political stripes - are concern ed . I would be prepared to acknowledge that that concern is there because of the efforts of members like the Honourable Member for Churchill and others that are concerned about this whole question .

While democracy may not move fast enough for the honourable member at certa in times , there are very funda­ mental steps being taken that will at least make it less possible for the railway companies to run the show as they wish to run it , and minimize the problems that will have a pretty fundamental impact on how dangerous chemicals are convoyed in trains . Some of this comes as a result of the unfortunate experience of Missis­ sauga . I know of some of the specific details of the Act. They go far and beyond the immediate problems that the railways have in moving chemicals.

The legislation was in final draft stage well over a year ago . I personally participated in transportation ministerial conferences where the details of the act were being vetted with the different provincial Ministers . It involves the farm movement of chemica ls ; it involves the fertilizer dealer movement of chemicals from fertilizer depots to the individual farms through the length and breadth of the province. It is a fairly comprehensive act by the federal government that I think will be in place fairly shortly .

I think in the discussion of this ma tter , it is not inap­ propriate to acknowledge that acti on by both federal and provincial jurisdictions is currently under way . Allow me also at this point , Mr . Chairman, to acknowledge the fact that ••• I haven 't had that opportunity to indicate to members of the committee that Emer­ gency Measures Organization functioned in what only could be described in an exemplary way in respect to the last big flood that we had in the province of Manit oba .

The machinery was in place, was working smoothly , and a compliment has to be paid to the Emergency Measures people and all the att endant staff , the re­ source people of the numerous departme nts , alon g with the numerous volunteer ser­ vices that were called into play , alon g with the municipal people that were co­ -operative from day one in that emergen cy ; that enabled us to overcome what in effec t was a flood of the proportions of 19 50, with all its memories for those of us who can remember , went with a minimal amount of inconvenienc e, no loss of life , and a minimal destruction of property , both public and private , in the great flood that we had last spring .

So I take this occasion to put it on the record to indi­ cate to the senior staff , and through them to the other staff people that have , on those occasions , and particularly on the prolonged emergen cy , emergency that lasts for four to five to six weeks , it does call on a tremenaous amount of d.edicated service by the Public Service who are too often maligned but who under circum­ stances as I just describ ed , performed in a most capable and admirable manne r. MR . COW AN: Mr .

Chairman , of course there are many on this side and others within the general public who would like to add to those commendatio ns , that would like to agree with the Minister that the Emergency Measures Organization did an adequate and a comprehensive job in deali ng with the flood of last year. I only hope that they are as able to deal with the new type of flood , the flood of chemi­ cals into our environme nt , and that they can act in as commendable and efficient manner in regards to that , because that is the chall enge that faces them today . - 2510 - 4 I

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 And aga in, I wish them well , I reserv� judgement , reserve the right to make judge­ ment on how they react to different situations on an ad hoe and on an overall basis, but certainly that is a task that confronts them. The Minister mentioned that perhaps democracy does not move fast enough for a person like my self . Sometimes , Mr . Cha irperson, I admit it does not move fast enough . Sometim es , on the other hand , it moves much too fast for a person like myself.

In this instan ce, I belie ve the threat that faces us , I believe the nature of that threat demands speedy act ion and therefore the Minister is abso­ lutely corre ct ; it does not move fast enough for me but that is something that I have to deal with and will deal with by continually attempting to prod it as fast as I can . The Minister incicated that the cont ingency plan that was referred to in the May 17th document was drawn up on May 15th .

My question to the Minister is then , why was that plan necessary on May 15th and not neces sary , or , excuse me , the cont ingency plan on March l 7th that was drawn up on March 15th . Why was that contingency plan needed on March 15 th but not needed on March lOth or March llth when the eminent danger was - if in this respect only - more eminent because we did not have full information available to us at that time . In other words , on March lOth we weren 't even certain of the chemical with which we were dealing . On March llt h we weren 't certain of the quantity of the spill .

I mean , that was a period of uncertainty' when one would have hoped that that uncertainty would have been counteracted by a great deal of certainty and forceful action on the part of the government such as drawing up a plan , if not putting a plan into effect , at least having that plan available and lett ing the people in the area know that that plan was available to allay some of their fear . Because the Minister talked about unnecessary panic . I just lay the responsibility on the government 's doorstep for that unnecessary panic because of the vacuum that was created .

We may choose to disagree about that ; I'm not certain. But the fact is that there was no contin­ gency plan availab le , yet five days down the road that cont ingency plan was deemed to be neces sary . If the Minister could comment on why the delay in drawing up that plan was necessary? MR .

ENNS: Mr Chairman , the Honourable Member for Churchill touches on a matter that is of concern to the Emergency Measures Organization and perhaps calls on me to acknowledge that we did not have the • • • or there was a communicatio ns failure within government at this particular time that allowed for that lapse of time to take place, where the judgement factor as to whether or not a potentially dangerous situation faced us was allowed to be argued within the rooms of senior experts and public servant s, and others , within the Department of the Environ­ ment . And that I acknowledge , Mr .

Chairman , is something that we hope through the organization that we are now planning , will not happen again , and in that event I think the old adage that one should always learn from any situation is very true , that we believe that we have learned something from the MacGregor experience and as the member has already pointed out , he will be the first to judge us - God willing that future accidents don 't happen.

But I tend to agree with him that they will and he will have an opportunity to judge us as to whether or not we have learned something in terms of tightening up our interdepartmental communications procedure and therefore enabling EMO to be on the scene when it 's the appropriate time to be there . MR . COW AN: The Minister has jogged my memory , Mr . Chairperson , but the last facet of that process that I indicated later where the , first there is a dirth of information and then there is a vacuum and so on , the last final step in that process is when the experts come in, and then we'v e lost it .

Just as again , sort of a general comment , that once the whole process is unfolded , the last stage is when the experts come in and it 's pretty well removed from the public 's hands because the experts sit across tables such as these and argue their varying view­ points . And for one viewpoint there is always a different viewpoint , differing sometimes in a great intens ity , differing sometimes in a lesser intensity , but none the fact, the conversation becomes muddled enough that it 's difficult for the public to make an informed decision.

The Minister indicated that the act that the federal government was ant icipat­ ing , and of course we assume that it 's the same act that was previously discussed , - 2511 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 would deal not only with transportaton of hazardous products by rail , but also by other means . It 's my informat ion , of course - and I don't believe that there is anyone who would wish to contradict it - that hazardous products are being carried right through the middle of the city today by truck transport , that hazardous products are being carried on planes , that many times radioactive substances are being carried on plan es, and in the events of cras hes , one has to deal with those hazards also .

I would ask the Minister to indicate if his department has given any review as to regulat ions and perhaps it would not come under his depar tment and if not so , he can inform me what

section will carry on this debate in the different estimat es, as to regulations deali ng with hazardous products bills that may occur because of truck transport in the city and outside of the city and the rural municipalities . MR . ENNS: The honourable member is correct that it 's probably not appro­ priate that we take this decision too much in this departm ent . The specific departments involved in terms of vehicle traffic would be the Minister of Highways and Transportation .

I am aware that as a result of a growing concern , for in­ stance, about the transportation of anhydrous ammonia , for instan ce , that regula­ tion s are being prepared to more rigidly control the transport ation of that pro­ duct . I think also again in the Department of the Environment that regulations can be expec ted , or at least that department would have the responsibility for formulatin g regulations that would be applicable to the storage , to the handling of the kind of products that the honourable member refers to .

We of course, com­ ing back to Square One , are hopeful that we will be so organized that in the event that there is an accident that knows who to touch face with and the resources of which department to call upon to respond to the acc ident . MR . COWAN: The Minister is reported as having said that in specific te rms an emergency response team will be put together by Emergency Measures Organiza­ tion. They will be the first people to the scene of an accident or incident that would necessitate Emergency Measures Organ ization becoming involved .

I'd ask the Minister if any consideration has been given to the types of people on that team. In other words, will they be firefighters , will they be people with specific skills that can make an ana lysis of the situation or will they be primarily people who will be involved with deter mining whether an evacuation is necessary and how to best proceed with that evacu ation? MR . ENNS: Mr. Chairman , when I' m referring to a response team within government , what we would like to get away from and that is to have to bring to an emergency different faces for each emergency which can happen.

We are asking in our reorga nization chaired and co-ordinated by the senior person within EMO to j have , and are now in the process of identifying , not just a position , but a posi- � tion surely of the person in the different departments and names and , indeed , spenaing some time with them.

So that under non-emergency circumstances they can sit down - a bit of seminar if you like - to simply know that if an emergency ari ses , that it 's not a question of phoning the Minister of Health and asking who are you designating to help us move patien ts ; or phoning Water Resources and who are you designating to look after this; that it 's a fixed position and person identified , and that even if the personnel change s, another person coming into that position recogniz es , and in his job descript ion , it 's part of his responsi­ bilities in that department .

We hope that in that way this response team, this bringing together of the Department of Resource people, can be fairly instant rather than what has been the case up to now of going through the appropriate Minister, the Minister checking with his Deputy Minister , and then designating for each specific emergency a person that is available to work on a co-ordinating committee to fight that emergen cy . We feel it 's important that these people have an opportunity to familiarize themselves, and beyond their immediate disciplines. This is part of the problem the member touched on .

I can indicate to the honourable member the bias that he spoke of, attrib utable to parties that have an interest , whether it 's rai lways or chemical companies, that is als o extended within the particular discipline of a public servant . If it 's a situation that he has had some part of in developing and supervising , - 2512 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 there 's the same tendency to , for instanc e, minimize the risk that may be in­ volved . So there is a need to apply the expanded trainin g technique that we speak of in the reorganized EMO to this response team , so that the Emergency Measures co-ordinator has on ta p, when the calls come in , we have the opportunity of making a fairly instant as sessment ; that this calls for steps (a) , (b) , and (

c) to fall into place . Steps (

b) and (

c) may never be required , but so that they 'r e there , and I don't have a Member for Churchill tel ling me , "Why weren 1 t you there five days earlier or seven days ea rlier ?" in future acc idents. Now whether this will work depends a great deal on our capability of organizing in such a way , and if it doesn 't work, my Deputy Minister will be looking for a job. MR . COWAN: Thank you , Mr . Chairpe rson . The response team, as the Minister outlines it , sounds to me , and again I'm not an expert , sounds to me that it will be a competent team and the plan sounds well thought out .

I would have no cr iti­ cism of such a team at this time . As a matter of fact , I commend the Minister for taking the action in this regard , of course , reserving final judgement to see how it actually operates . I can assure the Minister that if in the future I am one that does no t have to stand up five days later and say , "Where were you ?" I hope I'm not always that late in my criticism but sometimes I am .

But if I do not have to , after the fact , stand up and say , "Where were yo u?" I will be on that occasion for one of the few times pleased that I kept my mouth shut , pleased that I was able to keep my mouth shut . So , I hope that this works out . I would ask tne Minister if he can just roughly indicate how many people would be on this team and would it be on a 24- hour call? MR . ENNS : Mr . Chairman , the team that we are now referring to are essen­ tially people that are currently working in their various disciplines in their various departm ents , and as such, or would be available on fairly short notice.

Indeed , as was the case , and many a Highways personnel or Waterworks department personnel , in Health and others , will attest to the fact that were out on the job at midnight or called to meet an emergency situation in the small hours of the morning . But it is difficult and costly enough to maintain a 24 -hour reporting mechanism in the first instance ; that mechanism is in place and that will then trigger this response team . It 's the reaction that follows that we look for advice and the good counsel from this response team. MR . COWAN: I thank the Minister for that information .

It als o says in an art icle in the Tribune , April 8th , that at the time of the announcement of the establi shment of this emergency response team, that the Minister had indicated that amendme nts will be necessary to the EMO Act . I'd ask the Minister when we can expect those amendme nts . MR . ENNS : Mr . Chairman , we contemplate some amendments that will likely have to be made to the Emergency Measures Organization Act, alt hough we do not , to answer the specific question , see that a necessity with respect to the response team.

That is done in-house with the concurrence of the other departments under the direction of Cabinet. Mr. Chairman , just to answer a question that was asked ea rlier , the question about the occupancy of the new Environmental Lab . I' m informed that one-third of the space of the new fac ility will be occupied by Ene rgy and Mines , and two-thirds of the new fac ility will be occupied by Environmental Management under the Depart­ ment of Consumer and Corporate Affairs .

I indicate that , only that it would indi­ cate to me that the Department of Environmental Management will find itself in considerably expanded space with a considerably higher level of sophisticated equipment to increase its capabi lities of responding to the kind of environmental hazards that we 'r e going to face in the future . MR . COWAN: Thank you , Mr . Chairperson . We can only hope that it increases that response time , because having been awaiting soil samples from that lab for quite some time I' m of the opinion that they could be speedier , alt hough perhaps there are other reasons for the dela ys.

The CTC , of course , will be holding a special inquiry into the MacGregor spill. Has the Emergency Measures Organization been requested to attend and present a brief? - 2513 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 MR. ENNS: I'm informed , Mr . Chairman , through the Attorney-Gener al 's Department we have been asked to have somebody present at the inquiry and to provide whatever addit ional information or input we can. MR . COWAN: Thank you , Mr . Cha irperson . I'd ask the Minister to keep me informed on the Emergency response team if he can , as developments occur . I would appreciate being made aware of them when it is the appropriate time , given the fact that there must be some time lag between the actual development and the pub­ lic announcem ent .

I would not want to be the last to know, alth ough I'm not cer­ tain that I should be the first to know eit her . Passing on to another spill now. I know that there are more questions that one could ask on the MacGregor spill, and I know that there are more answers that the Minister would like to give on the MacGregor spill. And I don 't mean to , by not asking those questions , belittle those questio ns. As you said , we are working under different time const,raints now and one has to priorize .

I'v e detected a certain amount of urgency on the part of my col leagues to proceed with all due haste , something which I am familiar with from the Labour estimates , so I can deal with that as it may come . But the fact is, I would like to move on now to the more recent spill of metha­ nol at the C.P. yar ds.

I'l l just read a couple of statments and ask the Minister to comment on them if he will: Fire Chief, Jack Coulter, said Monday , "i t's 'a matter of concern ' that the department was not notified until 11: 45 , Sunday night , more than an hour after the accident in the C.P. yards ." The department he 's referring to in that instanc e, of course , is the Winnipeg Fire Department . Later in that

article from the Tribune , "Gover nment Services Minister said Monday , the Emergency Measures Organization was notified of this bill within 80 minutes , but after police and fire officials were called . 11 Another quote from a different paper I believe , is that "Fire Chief, Jack Coulter , said he was concerned over a 'l ack of communication ' between the Fire Department and the C.P. ra il . Plans established by the railroad and the Fire Department called for somebody to call us ," he said .

Quoting him again , he said , "We got notice in a rather odd manne r, Coulter added , referring to a call from a cit izen who was not associated with the railway , he said ." Now I'd ask the Minister if the Emergency Measures Organiza­ tion - because this does involve the organization - has investigated these com­ plaints and has come up with any report as to why the Fire Department was not calle d promptly and why Emergency Measures Organization was not called promptly in respect to this bill , too . MR . ENNS: Mr .

Chairman, the honourable member ra ises a matter that is of concern to us and highlights the problem that you can have ; an excellent organiza­ tion in a state of readiness to cope with any emergency that might arise . In this case , you als o have in addit ion to that - I know that the city of Winnipeg has a well- formulated emergency plan in a state of readiness to respond to acc idents occurring within the ir jurisdiction .

But what do you do when the immediate par­ ties involved , in this case , CPR rail officials , on whose property the accident happened , don 't report the accident as soon as we would like them to report it? That whole question has to be asked , and perha ps, some attention paid to as to whether or not some responsibility , either through legislation or otherwise is placed on companies , corporations and , indeed , individuals about a responsibility of reporting same .

That still doesn 't necessarily resolve the problem of somebody that doesn 't report when it ought to be reported , but it 's a question that will continue to cause us some concern . You know, in this instance , the accident oc­ curred on CPR property again within their yar ds. I' m not familiar with the proce­ dure that is called for by the railway administration manual in terms of what does a locomotive engineer do when he rams into a train in the siding , or a tanker car in the siding in the yards of the CPR .

Has the rai lway done its job in suffi­ ciently making sure that his immediate response is to phone in to his supervisor , and that the supervisor then clicks in and phones Chief Coulter , who then gets the rest of the action into motion? There is that initial possibility for a breakdown in terms of the immediate step that is taken at the precise time of the accident and in the immediate minutes, and/or indeed a half-hour or hours , after the acc i­ dent . I would accept some advice as to how to resolve that . Legislation? - 2514 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 MR . COW AN: Mr . Chairperson , the Minister has turned the tables on me and I'm glad he ha s, because as I have given him opportu nit ies to say certain things, this evening he has indeed given me opportunity , outside of the normal procedur es, to say certain things . I would not know how one would deal with this matter in a long-term manner .

But I would ask the Minister - and it is something that I believe should be done - I would ask the Minister if he has taken the effort to satisfy himself, that in this instance there was no intent on the part of the carrier or the operation responsible for the damage to downplay the incident , to not not ify the appropriate department s, such as the fire de partment and the Emergency Measures Organizat ion, because it does lead to that question, and I am not saying that that was the case .

I am not privy to that sort of informat ion , nor am I privy to the mechanism to make an investigation , and that 's why I asked the Minister if he had investi­ gated it , because I would be interested if that was indeed the case . Because you can make all the legislation that you wish, but if the people are not going to abide by common sense and not going to abide by the legislation , then one has to build in either investigation mechanisms , inspection mechanisms .

And in this instance it would be very difficult because you would have had to have the fortui­ tous incident of having an inspector right on the spot , or an investigator right on the spot , if it was not the intent of the carrier to report that spill. On the other hand you can build in penalties , which are after the fac t. If a person is caught then there 's a fairly severe penalty . These are all legislative mechani sms which the Minister is probably more familiar with than I am , so I don 't mean to· lecture him on it , I just mean to point out that these are some of the conundrums that he must fac e.

And in order to face those with full informat ion, which is something that we 'v e been talking about , one has to be satisfied that there was no intent on the part of the carrier to eith er delay the notification or to avoid notification. MR . ENNS : Mr . Chairman , I can indicate to the Honourable Member for Chur­ chill that in the incident that we are talking about at CPR yar ds , a senior rail­ way official has acknowledged that there was a serious neglection of practice taken by an individual who has since been reprimanded , not dismissed I'm happy to say , but seriously reprimanded .

In other words, it indicates to me in the infor­ mation that I have that the railway procedure was not adhered to in this instance and the information that I had from this offic ial is that had that been followed, then Fire Chief Coulter , for instance would not have had the complaint that he legit imately has , and that the hour-and-a-ha lf, or the hour plus 80 minutes delay , would not have occurr ed . But that points out prec isely the matter that the honourable member touched on just a moment ago .

We can put the heavy hand of legislation and law on people but if common sense isn't followed, then it will still break down from time to time .

I would hope, though , that the kind of debates that we initiate from time to time in this Chamber all help towards the public education and awareness of the poten­ tial seriousness of these ma tte rs, and that it would encourage procedures that are in place for good reasons , often worked out in co-operation with the safety work groups , the union management , the recognition that they have a responsibility to the general public , that these steps are in fact carried out . MR. COWAN: Thank you , Mr . Chairperson .

If I understand the Minister correctly , the situation at the railyards here in the city was not a matter of a call being lost in the switchboard system , as had first been indicated , but was actually a matter of procedures not being followed . Does the Minister know what level of authority the individual who was severely admonished , or reprimanded for this breach of procedur es , occupied? MR . ENNS : We ll, Mr . Chairman , I' m aware of that but I am not prepared to indicate that to the committee , in public. MR . COWAN: Thank you , Mr . Chairperson. I am not trying to find out an individual or name .

I'd ask the Minister if he was in the senior level , if he can indicate that . I don't want him to give out any information which might implicate an individual and I would be the last person to ask for that to happen . But I'd - 2515 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 like to know if we 'r e talking about some worker who happened to see it and didn 't report it properly , or if it had followed up a chain of command and at a certain point in a chain of command , at a high level , the procedures were broken. MR . ENNS : Well ag ain , Mr . Chairman , I am not totally familiar with the hierarchy of the railway in what you would call and what the member would call a high level or a medium level or a low level . If you 'r e talking about diversions at South Indian Lake , I' m more familiar with those terms , high level , low lev el, medium level .

But then on the other hand I don't want to draw extraneous subject matters into this debate at this time . Let me simply indicate to the honourable member that it was at a senior level. The informatio n that was passed through was not forwarded . MR. COWAN: I will make every atte mpt to resist the barb that the Minister , in referring to a matter within my own constituen cy , not because I don't believe it 's am important matter , but there are other places and other times and I'm cer­ tain we will enjoy a discourse in the future on that matter.

Is the Minister assured that the carrier , CPR in this case , has taken action that will ensure that everyone is advised of the proper procedures? Everyone is advised that there will be penalties for neglecting to follow through proper procedur es, and that that has in fact reduced the potentiality of this sort of a delay resulting in the future? MR. ENNS : Mr . Chairman , again not prolong the debate on this ma tter , but here we run into one of the problems that we have of jurisdiction .

The railways operate under a federal charter , are totally covered under federal legislat ion , and again I don't use that , as I indicated in some other statement , that that 's not meant as any abdication on the part of this government 's responsibility for that . But it is not for us to necessarily be the judge of how, first of all , internal practices are being carried out within the railway . We can put the kind of pressures on the railway that will help to ensure that their internal practice is and that 's precisely what we did in this instance and that 's how the informat ion came back to us .

But the question of corporations or departments of government operating in jurisdict ions other than those that the province has immediately jurisdict ion over again creates the possibility for things falling in between stools. And I would hope that in our discussions and as we move out in the newly-organized Emergency Measures Organizat ion's planning program , that these are the kind of things that we 'l l be able to bridge between municipalitie s, between different jurisdicti ons , to tighten the liaison between the federal organ izat ions and those that they have jurisdict ion over. MR .

COW AN: Yes, thank you , Mr . Chairperson . I'm glad the Minister didn 't shy away from the jurisdict ional matter because he had assured us in the House the other day that he would not do so, and I have taken him at face value on that assurance that the jurisdict ional ma tter , alt hough it is a difficult matter and a dicey matter at times, is not going to be used to forestall any sort of progres­ sive changes .

Can the Minister indica te , and as he is more conversant with what can be done in this matter legislatively than I am , can the Minister indicate if he can , when developing the new regulations which have been addressed to in the House , if they can develop regulations that will take into consideration the jurisdictional dis­ pute? In other words , force CPR or CNR or Air Canada or a federal agency to abide by the jurisdiction , without the approval of such federal agency? MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa . MR. DAVID BLAKE : Mr .

Chairman , I'm glad to see the Member for Churchill proceeding with haste in getti ng the est imates moving along . Mr . Chairman , I just have one quest ion . I apologize to the Minister if I mis­ sed it while I was away from the meetin g. I wonder , I'm looking in the area of authority in the field of evacuating a certain area . Does that authority lie with the Emergency Measures Organization or is it a municipal auth ority , or just who issues the order to evacuate a certain area? - 2516 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 MR . ENNS: The Honourable Member for Churchill can tell the Member for Minnedosa that we just covered that , but I have no problem in repeating it. The authority to order evacuation rests with the direc tor, as it now stands in The Emergency Measures Act , after an operational order is passed by Cabinet . Now that is essentially in place because of our experience with floods, where we have time , days, to contemplate evacu ation .

Under emergency situations I wo uld imagine that a fire police or a fire chief or a reeve or mayor of a community may well order an evacu ation , but there is not legislative authority supporting that act ion, it would then be done under just common sense . The conditions of the situation would dictate somebody in authority to do that . But it raises a point .

The business of ordering people to evacuate their homes is one that 's not taken lightly and either the immediate situation is such that there is no questioning of the order ; it 's more difficult , of course , to exercise that evacuation order when people do not perceive the need to evacu ate , which is the case very often when you have a slow moving emergency like a flood and somebody 's predicting that the water 's going to get that high or that the dikes may not hold and the people that are being pro­ tected by the dikes are prepared to gamble with you and say , "To heck, we'l l take our chances" .

So the order for evac uation , though , to answer his question specifica lly , the only time that citizens of Manitoba can be ordered to evacuate their homes legis­ latively , is under The Emergency Measure s Act , after what is called an operatio nal order is passed giving that power to Emergency Measure s. MR . BLAKE: Thank you , Mr . Chairman . That 's the message coming out of Arnprior to those that are going down taking the Emergency Measures courses that requires municipal legislation to be passed in order for an area to be evacuated .

And I felt, when this was communicated to me on the weekend , that there had to be some authority in place in the event of an emergen cy . Now I don't think anyone would question if they got the word that in 15 minutes their house was liable to blow up that they would get out of there pretty quickly without quest ioning where the authority was or where the order came from . But I'm glad that there is an authority in place that can be brought to bear very quickly .

It could be done in a matter of moment s, I understand from what you 'v e told me then, that if there was a disaster or a spill in Minnedosa that within a very very few minutes of the contact made with EMO , that area could be ordered evacuat ed, with full authority to enforce it . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage la Pr airie , I believe , has been wait­ ing for quite some time . MR . LLOYD G. HYDE: Thank you , Mr . Chairman. I just want to speak brie fly on this topic that we'v e been discussing here tonight .

I first of all appreciate what the concern that the Member for Churchill has for the people of MacGregor and indeed the people of Manitoba . But I believe he has created undue distrust in many people , particularly the people of MacGreg or , in his statements that he has made pertaining to the spill of vinyl chloride . He created this distrust in the people by making undue , unnecessary sta tements in the House , and I have to say that it could also probably include the media . They just went to the point where they got the people upset there unduly .

About the pregnant lad ies of the community , I made some inquiries about the situation there and , Mr . Chairman , as I understand , there was one woman , one of the three pregnant women in the village of MacGre gor , she went to visit her doctor and he told her his knowledge of the chemical reaction as far as pregnant women were concerned was pr actically nil. He did not have any great knowledge on what could have happened . But he did say to this here woman that if' she was concer ned for her own heal th, that if she had a place to go , to leave the area , that would be her entirely her own decision.

So she did leave . However , the second woman I understand , she left on her own, she didn 't bother going to see her doctor . But the third woman , she stayed within the community and as I understand , as far as we know, there 's been no serious outco me at this date. I just want to bring this to the attention , to you and to the Minister tonight , that I think that there was undue alarm created in that comm unity . Thank you Mr. Chairman . - 2517 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 198 0 MR . COWAN: Yes , I have to agree with the member that just spoke , that there was undue alarm and it is a matter we went over in great detail and one would attribute it to one particular set of cir cumstances and another would con­ tribute it to anoth er. But I would just like , if he has believed me to make statements to the media that have been published or state ments in the House that were incorrec t, that he would bring them forward to me and I can discuss them with him.

Perhaps there were , I am not an expert in the field , but I do my research as carefully as most , and would just appreciate if he does believe that I have made statements thai; would have created undue , or unnecess ary alarm , that he would document them more fully . Having said that , I appreciate his concern and that is one of the reason why we 'v e had such a long discussion and I have been trying to move as quickly as possible.

In regard to informat ion dissemination , I believe that if he had agreed with me in different instances that he would agree that there was a problem with the lack of informat ion and that his government had to share some of the responsibility for that lack of information . But I do not want to go into that unless it 's absolute­ ly necessary . I would like to move on to a different situation and that is in regard to the Whiteshell Nuclear Research Establi shment at Pi nawa .

Can the Minister indicate if he is in contact with the officials at the Whiteshell Nuclear Research Establish­ ment in regard to Emergency Measures Organization participation in the event that it should become necessary because of an accident or an incident in the area? MR . ENNS: Mr . Chairman , I can assure the honourable member that in the normal course of contacting various different group s, industries and other situa­ tions where any remote possibility of an emergency could arise , that kind of con­ tact has been made with Pinawa .

I would expect that to be , as I have mentioned now for the third time , strengthened when we have an eastern regional municipal advisor in place, specificially responsible for that ar ea ; that among the numerous communities, towns, cities that are involved in that eastern region that Pinawa would be a natural consideration that he would make and to have contact estab­ lished and a basis for co-operation should the need arise . MR . COWAN: Mr.

Chairman , has the Minister been advised by the offic ials of the Nuclear Research fac ility or the officials of the Atomic Energy Board in re­ gard to a document known as the Hazard Report , which is a document accordin6 to a public relations spokesperson for the facility , which describes the worst that could happen if the experimental nuclear reactor failed . MR . ENNS: Mr .

Chairman , I can advise the Honourable Member for Churchill that early on in my career in Government Serv ices, and early on in the career of ac ceptin g responsibility for Emergency Measures from my colleague the Attorney­ -Gener al , the Emergency Measures Organization has elaborate plans for the case of a nuclear holoca ust , that there are duplicated essential Government Services offices in a state of preparedn ess , undergrou nd , in a bunker at Camp Shilo .

We personally spent some time in those bunkers in our respect ive offices , not the most comfortable places to spend the long weekend in , but we had a very thorough brie fing at that time which outlined the considerably elaborate cont ingency plans that are in place . It involves an entire communicat ions system that can plug into a specific band on our radios ; the liaison that enables the immediate contact with the utilit ies , Hydro , are in place; and indeed a fair level of emergency supplies are housed in this bunker . Mr .

Chairman, this dates back to the time when it was a matter of national policy to build impregnable centres as they were called , underground , usually associated with a military establi shment , that in the event of an emergency - I can recall the Attorney-General question ing the directiv es, the very specific and clear directions that are stated and written in the manu al , that is to say that when you receive the notice you have 20 minutes warning of a nuclear atta ck ; you 'r e to head straight out to Shilo to resume your duties of keeping the govern­ ment operating .

The Attorney-General at that time poked me in the ribs and said "Gee , Harry I don ' i; know how this is going to go over with my wife , honey I'm sorry , it 's coming , I'm off to the bunker ." But I describe that only to answer the member for Churchill 's question that yes , the Emergency Measures Organization - 2518 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 has , in the total scope of things , and I don't say this facetiously , the necessary plans in place that could foresee that kind of a situation happening . MR . COWAN: Thank you , Mr. Chairperson . I appreciate that information ano I know that it is a difficult subject to talk about and believe the Minister to have handled it quite ably with just the right amount of sincerity and serious­ ness . At the same time , it wasn 't my questi on .

My question to the Minister was, has he been made aware of a hazard report which describ es , and I am quoting from the newspaper "t he worst that could happen if the experimental nuclear reactor at Pinawa failed" in other words what is happening here is the spokesperson for the Whiteshell Nuclear Research Establi shment at Pinawa is tel ling us that they have developed a hazard report . Now we know that , because it is necessary with all reactors that you have to have a report that outlines specifically the ult imate ramifications of a nuclear accident at such a plant .

Again , whenever one brings these subjects up one is accused of being either an alarmist or an extremist and sometimes by the Minister himself. The case is that I think it is an important document and I bring it up , not to sugge st that such an event is imminent, because I don't believe that it is. And as an aside , Mr . Chairperson , I have to thank the Minister for the information that he has sent over to me on nuclear energy and have not got around to reading it yet , but surely will because it is a subje ct that one should understand the most possible about .

So I know that the Minister understands and shares my concern in this regard as to how we can make nuclear energy the safest possible mechanism , and how we can make informed decisions as to whether or not it is safe . In that case one must have all the information available to them , again we are talkin g about the whole infor­ mation process which is probably the most important process in regard to these sorts of concer ns.

Can the Minister indicate if his department has been made aware of that hazard report and if that hazard report has been made available to his department so that the Emergency Measures Orga nization can try to , as much as is possible , in advance what sort of emergency procedures they would follow in the event that the nuclear reactor failed . In the unlikely event that the nuclear reactor failed . MR . ENNS : Mr . Chairman , I would as sume that this is the kind of informa­ tion that Emergency Measures would receiv ed .

I would imagine also that the authorities at Pinawa , having gone to the trouble of preparing this report , this document , that they would want to make sure that responsible civil authorities have it in their possession. However , I cannot assure him that is the case , I will undertake that question as notice and perhaps he can remind me at some later point and I will doublecheck with him. MR . COW AN: I thank the Minister for the assurance that he will undertake it and I most likely will remind him in the appropriate amount of time .

I'm going to forego my usual 20 minutes summation after a discourse of this nature . I notice the disappointed look on the Minister 's face but I assure him that there will be opportunities in the future for us to discuss this .

That would be all that I would like to say , other than in very brief summation - and I always catch myself when I say that because the Minister quite justifiably relaxes for a moment - but in very brief summation , I share the concerns from the member in regards to what happened at MacGrego r, and I belie ve there was a break­ down ·in the communication and information dissemination process that created a vacuum that gave rise to statements that would tend to make people apprehensive� - Not that they were not justifiable statement s, I am not implying that whatsoever, but just that the whole process of disseminating information could have been done much better .

In the instance of the Emergency Measures Organizat ion , that the contingency plan for the evacuation which was not necess ary , to the best of our knowledge was not necessary , should have been drawn up immediately and it should have been given to responsible people and the public so that they would have known that there was someone who cared and was someone who was preparing cont ingency plans in case it became necess ary . So I believe there was a failure to No . l, draw up that document in the first place ; I believe there was a failure in communicat ion , as the movie said . I - 2519 -

Tuesday , 15 April, 1980 believe that the Minister is trying to deal with a very complex and a very compli­ cated problem, a very difficult problem , and I do commend him for the initiative , I believe it 's a bit belated , but hindsight is always better than foresight , at least we assume that it is always better than foresight . Therefore , that 's an enjoyment of a privilege that I can have in this instance that is perhaps unfair to take advantage of, but I do want it on the record that I was not at all satis­ fied , nor were many satisf ied with the way that the MacGregor incident was han­ dled .

I believe that there are mechanisms that can be developed ; I look forward to reviewing the regulations ; I look forward to reviewing the Minister 's initia­ tives , both in theory and in practice, and I can only share his hope that we have as few environmental accidents and incidents as we can , knowing full well that there will be some and knowing full well that if we are prepar ed , and if we have an intention of dealing with them in the most open and the most comprehensive and the most sensitive and serious and sincere manner possible that we cannot prevent them all , but that we can in many instances forestall some major impacts .

That , Sir , is a goal that is well worth seeking and a goal well worth striving towards So I will hope that the Minister 's ef forts work out in the way that he antici­ pates them to, and I can assure him that if I can be of any assistance or my colleagues can be of any assist ance to him in the future , from either the discus­ sions like this, or the supplying of instant experts or any way possible , that he would call upon us MR . CHAIRMAN: 3.( h) (l)- -pa ss; 3. (h) (2)- -pass ; 3.(j)- -pa ss.

Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3, 628 , 100 for Government Servic es , Supply and Services--p ass . 4. (a) (1) --pa ss ; 4. (a) (2)--pa ss ; 4. (b) (1) --pass ; 4. (b) (2)--pa ss ; 4. (c) (1) --p ass ; 4. (c) (2)- -pass ; 4. (d) - the Member for Elmwood, 4.( d) (l) . MR . DOERN : I wonder if the Minister can explain , if he can get his brain into gear away from chemical spills , can he explain just what the Land Acquisition Branch is doing these days in terms of what are the main areas of acquisition that they are dealing with.

I wonder whether he could also indicate whether the staff is about the same as it was last year or whether there has been any reduction or increase in numbers . MR. ENNS : Mr . Chairman , we are dealin g with the same number of staff , In the 197 9- 80 estimat es , we had 41 .2 6 staff man years ; we are asking for the same number of staff man years in this set of appropriat ions. We are spending somewhat less money , some $2 , OOO in Other Expenditures - $95, 000 last year and $92, 000 this year . The decrease is due to the Land Tit les no longer charging any registration fees to government departme nts.

Registrations completed for MHRC must still be paid for but that has effected a small decrease in the costs in Other Expenditure s. The Recoveries are up somewhat - last year , 1979- 80 , the branch recovered some $7 71 ,0 00 , as compared to the anticipated recoveries this year of $820 ,0 00 , for an increase of $49 ,0 00 .0 0. The costs of the Land Acquisition Branch are fully recoverable from client departments and therefore recoveries are increased to achieve the Nil vote posi­ tion , no change in the policy from what has been establis hed for a number of yea rs .

From time to time we fall behind in our charges to cl ient departmen ts . Those have been readjusted so that the recovery will be full . The activities of the branch essentially are unchange d. The Department of Highways is a major cl ient . The Department of Water Resources continues to be a major cl ient ; some lessening ac tivity in the Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corpora­ tion. We anticipate increased activity for Manitoba Hydro this year . For the first time - the Minister occasionally achiev es , if he stays in this business long enough , some goal s.

In 1968 , I attempted to convince the then government that all agencies of government should come under the Land Acquisition Branch and more specifically under , which is involved in this operation , the Land Value Appraisal Commission. For years , the major uti lities such as Hydro and Telephones , have rejec ted that position and have in the course of times caused some difficulties . To the average Manitoban , when land is being acquired for government services , some of them differentiate between Hydro or Telephones and /or - 2520 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 any other department of government . That has brought about the situation sometime where one neighbour , whose land is being required for Hydro purposes , is being paid a different sum than the land in the adjacent quarter that is being required for water drainage or for other government purposes such as highways.

To bring about a greater degree of fairness and uniformity in terms of land that is being required and purchased from, or expropriated from cit izens of Mani­ toba , it is my intention to introduce legislation during this session that will make it clear that Hydro 's land purchasing ac tivities will come under the purview of the Land Value Appraisal Commission. I am pleeased to indicate to the honour­ able members of the committee that Hydro , under its present managem ent , raises no objection to that .

We antic ipate that that will create some addit ional activity for specifically the Land Value Appraisal Commission, not necessarily the Land Acquisition Branch. Hydro will cont inue to essentially do the purchasing . They have their people in their land acquisit ion department that will be out there acquiring and making arrangeme nts for the land , but it will have to be reviewed by the Land Value Appraisal Commission to receive a certificate of value .

It is conceivable that there will be considerable act ivity in this fiel d as we prepare for the western grid connection, which means that the land will have to be acquired from here to the Saskatchewan border in the development of the transmission lines that will heading west . MR. DOERN : Mr. Chairman , I gather - was it 41 SMYs here , unchanged? MR . ENNS : That 's right . MR . DOERN : When I look at the salary figures , I have the clear impression that the Civil Service only obtained a 4 percent increase last year ; is that so? MH. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman , I don't believe that is so , but •• MR .

DOERN : I am looking at the figur es , $700 ,0 00 , to $728 ,0 00 ; it looks like 4 percent . MR. ENNS : Mr . Chairman , I can assure the honourable member that the Land Acquisition people received the same general salary increase , which I believe was of the order of seven-plus last year . The figure here reflects the possibility of chang es , some retirements of senior people at higher levels of pay , of bringing in junior at lower levels of pay or , indeed , some leaves of absences occurring within the branc h. MR .

CHAIRMAN : 4. (d)(l)- -pass ; 4. (d) (2)- -pa ss; 4. (3)- -pa ss ; 4. --pas s; 5. (a) --pa ss ; 5. (b) - -pass - the Member for Elmwood. MR . DOERN : There again , I see the salaries - I assume that those salaries are for probably two people - I don 't if there are two or three people . Again , it looks like only a thousand dollar increase on $28, OOO, which seems again like a piddling amount . MR . ENNS: Mr . Chairman , I think if the honourable member reflects on the fact . that one of the members of that commission is none other than the former Member for Pembina , Mr .

George Henderson , who is well known for his concern about the spending of public dolla rs, that probably has , in its way , manifested itself in this rather modest call for Other Expenditures. He was never known to buy anybody else a cup of cof fee other than himself when he was in the Chamber here and I assume that that prac tice is being carried on in the Commission Board these days. NR . DOERN : He was also a man of few words, unlike the MLA for Churchill or the Minis ter .

His most famous one , I remember his swan song when he talked about people who nowadays have compassion for the underprivile ged and people who are unemployed and people who are on welfare and socially underprivileged and this , - 2521 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 that and the other thing. Then he said in his day they simply called people like that bums . MR. ENNS : Under what item are we discussing this ••• ? MR . DOERN : This is the "George Henderson Sub-amendme nt ." I would also like to ask the Minister who else is on the Land Value Appraisal Commission. I assume that Professor Harvey is still there and that George Hender­ son is there . Who are the other members and what are their background s, in brief? MR . ENNS : Mr .

Chairman , the committee consists , under the chairmanship of Douglas Allan Cameron Harvey , who is, I believe , a professor of Law at the Univer­ sity of Manitoba , who has served this commission with distinction over a goodly period of time . He was appointed , I believe , in 1967 by the then Conservative administratio n, served throughout the period of time of the NDP administration , and continues to serve to this day . I believe that is the case , Mr . Chairman , unless The Honoura ble former Minister shakes his head . MR . DOERN : Mr .

Chairman , I think the professor , who I believe is an expert in expropriation and teaches expropriation , followed Jack Walker , who was the chairman . He was not on the board at the time that Jack Walker , who is a lawyer , was the chairman . No w, whether he had ever been on the board years ago , if so, it is news to me . He came in in the mid to late Seventies and I think he has only been on a few yea rs, as far as I know. He certainly wasn 't on , say , from 1972 to 1974 or 1975 , if before . I asked who the other members are . MR .

ENNS : The other members are Joseph Krutish , who is in effect the exe­ cutiv e secretary , I believe , of the board ; Mr . Ronald Cast les ; Miss Helen Unrau ; and George Henders on . MR . DOERN : What are the backgrounds of Mr . Castles and Mrs . Unrau . MR . ENNS : Mr . Castles is a resident of the city , in St . James , I believe .

He comes from the Interl ake area , in the neighbourhood of Warr en , is self-employed in the insurance business, my understanding is, has been involved as a private citizen in numerous appearances before the board and other government agencies in the acquisition of land during the time that Hydro acquired a great deal of land through the Interl ake for the construction of first the Grand Rapids Transmi ssion Line and then latterly the D.C. Kettle Line .

I might say about him, he is, al­ though not a lawyer , but has on numerous occasio ns , I can reca ll, over the past deca de, represented the interests of individual farmers or farmer groups in ap­ pearing before the Land Acquisition Branch and/or the Land Value Appraisal Commis­ sion in assistin g individuals in their land transac tions with the branch. Mrs. Helen Unrau comes from the Transcona area and I belie ve is also self­ -employed in the real estate business. Mr. George Henderson, well , I don 't think I have to describe him in any other terms than I already have. MR .

CHAIRMAN : I wonder if I could bring to the committee 's attention that I ui d slip by 4 without passing it : Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceedin g ••• MR . DOERN : Mr . Chairman , I'm sorry . On a point of order , we haven 't passed 5; when you pass 5, then you can pass 73 Resolution. MR . CHAIRMAN: Well, that may be corre ct , but celled out ; it 's recoverabl e, so it really was not corre ct ; I should have passed that at the end of 4. committee , though . the fact is that (

c) can­ ! would think , to be I need the guidance of the MR . DOERN : Well , why don't we pass 5 and then pass 73 ? - 2522 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 MR . CHAIRMAN : 5. (a)- -pas s; 5. (b) - the Member for St . Vital . MR. WALDING: Mr . Chairman , perhaps the Minister could give us the basis for the remuneration of the - commission. I presume it is on a per diem basis , per­ haps he could confirm that and tell me what the rate is and the usual number of meetings that the commission would hold in a year . MR . ENNS : Mr.

Chairman, the remuneration of the said members shall be paid at the following rat es : The Chairman shall receive for every hour that he spends in discharging and carrying out his duties and responsibilities , the sum of $2 8.36. The vice-c hairman , when act ing as Chairman , shall receive the sum of $28 . 36 for every hour that he spends in discharging and carrying out his duties and responsibilities as Chairman of the Commission, but he shall receive the sum of $69 .1 9 for every day that he spends in discharging and carrying out his duties and responsibilit ies as an ordinary member of the Commission.

The ordinary mem­ bers shall receive respect ively , the sum of $69 .1 9 for every day that each spends in discharging and carrying out his duties and responsibilities ." MR . CHAIRMAN: 5. (b)- -pass - the Honoura ble Minister . MR . ENNS: Mr. Chairman , let me not fillibuster my own estimates but I just give to the members an indication of their activities for the past year . They held some 107 hearings , acquiring some 176 individual propert ies. Pardon me , not acquiring , but passing a Land Value Certificate on 176 properti es. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . Vital . MR .

WALDING: What was the figure the Minister gave again for the number of hearings , please? MR . ENNS : 107 . MR . WALDING: Thank you , Mr . Chairman . Did the Minister indicate that each hearing was a separate day ? MR . ENNS: No, Mr . Chairman , depending on the nature of the hearings , some of the individual applications are substantial and complex and indeed call for a full day 's hearing , but there are numerous applicat ions, four or five applicat ions at one hearing . MR . WALDING: One further que stion , Mr . Chairman. Will the Minister indi­ cate how many days that would indicate? MR . ENNS : Mr .

Chairman , the brief report that I have from the Land Value Appraisal Commission indicates that on average they meet twice a week . I can indicate to the honourable members that some of the transactions that they have been involved in, particularly the more complex ones involving city property , where extensive legal presentations are made to them , fairly significant sums of money are involved , the hearings take on a fairly complex nature , and in that instance the Commission has a fairly full

schedule of work to deal with . MR . WALDING: I would just like to ask the Minister 's opinion, Mr . Chair­ man, whether he thinks members of the Commission are in fact adequately paid when I understand that the members of the Land Assessment Review Commission are paid in the region of $150 a day for working on land and financial matters connected with it . Does he consider that that would be in order? MR . ENNS : Mr . Chairman , the Honourable Member for St .

Vital raises a matter that has been of some concern to us in terms of appropriate and fairness levels of pay as among the various different commissions, boards and review te ams that are set up from time to time . I can indicate to the honourable member that as a member of the Treasury Board , this matter has been raised . There is under way an attempt to rationalize the different levels of renume ration that are in - 2523 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 effe ct . The honourable member will appreciate that in many instances a figure , or what is deemed to be appropriate or fair is struck initially , then particularly a board such as this with ongoing ac tivities as aside from a review team or group that has a relatively short time period with which it has to deal , a report is expected , and then the committe e dissolves itse lf, there is a concern by govern­ ment . I share that concern as to whether or not some individual citiz ens are providing a service to the public at one level of pay

whereas in another instance another group of cit izens are providing another service of government at a differ­ ent level of pay , whether that is always in the appropriate proportions . It 's a matter of some concern to me , and as indicated to the honourable member , not only at my instigation but through other members of government voicing their concerns in this matter , that that is bein g looked at .

I think the honourable member will appreciate that there is a difference between a commission that is there by stat­ ute that operates year round , will continue to operate year round , as compared to a review team that governments will establish from time to time to address a par­ ticular problem.

The one that the honourable member refers to is the assessment review team, hopefully it will do its work within the next year or six months or fourteen months ; I don 't wish to set its time plan at this point , but there is quite a difference in the nature of the commissions and the type of work that they are expected to carry out . MR . WALDING: Mr .

Chairman , a couple of other matters occurred to me as the Minister was explaining his problem in rationalizing these different amounts - I won't comment on them other than just to leave them with him to further complicate his delib erations for him to ponder upon - and that was another well- known lawyer who carried out a commission for the government I understand was paid at the rate of $75 an hour , another person who carried out a commission received nothing at al l, and members of the Legislature who appear at intercessi onal committees are paid $50 a day . MR . CHAIRMAN: 5. (b)--pas s; 5. (c)- -pas s.

Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 , 588 , 500 for Government Servic es , Pro ject Services--p ass . 6. --pass the Member for Elmwood. MR . DOERN : Mr . Chairman , we are getting near to final remarks here , but I just wanted to get a quick review again from the Minister . He indicated , I be­ lieve , the provincial lab, if my memory serves me correct ly , may be opened in July ; is that what he said? And that the garage may be accessed - was it in the fall or in the summer of this year? MR . ENNS : In the fa�l, Mr . Chairman . MR .

DOERN : Are there any other build ings that are now in the stage of completion or have been completed , that there will be official openings for from, let 's say today forward? Are there some regional office build ings or Highways garages or any other new construction that the Minister is going to open in the next few months other than those buildings we 'v e mentioned? MR . ENNS : Mr . Chairman, we anticipate that there may well be the opportu­ nity of officially opening The Pas Court House , as indeed the Corrections fac ili­ ties that are on

schedule and under construction at The Pas at the present time . MR . DOERN : When would that be? MR . ENNS : That would be towards the latter part of the ye ar, hopefully , construction schedules being met ; I believe we have targetted for sometime in December. MR . CHAIRMAN : 6. --pass - the Member for St . Vital . MR. WALDING : Can the Minister provide to the committee an outline of what - 2524 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 physical assets he intends to acquire or construct in the coming year and if not , would he give us a breakdown please? MR . ENNS: Mr . Chairman , I can give it to him in various forms . In a sum­ mary form in terms of dolla rs, 1981 requests that are before you call for some $8 , 445, OOO to be expended on the carrying on of major projects ; some $2 , 002 , OOO will be expended on the introduction of major new projects.

In addition to that , a total of $4 ,1 82 ,0 00 will continue to be spent on fire upgrading work, alt hough I must indicate that that figure , because of the nature of the work, we could well be spending an addit ional $500 ,0 00 - or fail to spend several hundred thousand dollars on renovative work of that kind , having to work within time schedules of the client departments where residents or inmates are housed make scheduling that much more difficult - but we are tar getting for expenditures of between $4 million ana $5 million in the area of fire and safe ty .

We have an addit ional $3 million worth of work that we identify as minor construction projects involving renova­ tions , principally minor projects , and that builds up to the total of some $15 ,7 79 , 000 that is involved in acq uisition , construc tion , in this set of esti­ mates before you . To bring to completion the projects that we are completing and commencing with this $15 million, will require a total of $30 ,6 80 ,0 00 .0 0. Mr.

Chairman , if it helps the honourable members of the committee , I can per­ haps indicate to them the major new construction projects that will be undertaken by the department in the coming year . The one that has already received some notoriety or publicity , to commence with design work, is the appointment of con­ sul ting engineers and prime architects for the new court house ; some $460 , OOO for design work is included in these estimate s.

The major addit ion to the Assiniboine Community College involving the farm mecha nics ' building as well as some other addit ional classroom space will involve the expenditure of $1 ,2 62 ,0 00 in this current year . The total cost for that project is est imated as $6 ,3 28 ,0 00.0 0. The major project at Portage la Prairie is the Physical Activities Building , which continues of course with the general up­ grading of that facility with the addition of a swimming pool and some $20 , OOO, pardon me , $7 0, 000 will be spent in that area .

To complete the work at Porta ge , this fac ility will call for the expenditure of $2 ,6 58, 000 .0 0. We have in addit ion to that , the cal ling for , and have appointed the architect for a 40-bed hospital at Portage , planning and design to proceed in this current year . The total cost of that project will be $1 , 395 ,0 00 .00.

Another major project, altho ugh not major in the amounts of dolla rs , is the provision of satellite fire-fighting training centre at Thompson in Manitoba , which has long been asked for by the people of the north to make it easier for the training of northern fire fighters who now have to come down to the Brandon facil­ ity . We will be spending some $200 , OOO in building the fire fighting training centre at Thompson. That gives the honourable members some indication of the upward and onward drive of the Department of Government Services as they turn the corner here in 1980- 81. MR . WALDING: Mr.

Chairman , when the Minister first gave me the breakdown, he mentioned $2 .2 million for major new projec ts . Is the $2 .2 million included in the $8 mi llion , which he mentioned as the first item, ma jor pr ojects? MR . ENNS : Yes , I am advised that that is the case, Mr . Chairman . MR . WALDING: The 4. -something mill ion for fire upgrad ing , would that all be at Portage la Prai rie? MR .

ENNS : No , the major portions of that are scattered throughout the instituti ons : The Brandon Mental Health Centre accounts for two projects, one of $1 40 ,0 00 and the other one of $246 ,0 00 ; the Portage la Prairie School for Retar­ dates involves the sums of $199 ,0 00 , $100 ,0 00 , and $260 ,0 00 ; at Selkirk Mental Health Centre , some $91, 000 is being expended . Further, to the Selkirk Mental Health Centre , another $90 ,0 00 and another $92 ,0 00 is being expended in that fa­ cility . Again, at Portage la Prairie , at the Correct ional Institu te , some $400 ,0 00 is being spent .

At the Winnipeg Seven Oaks Centre for Youth, to upgrade - 2525 -

Tuesday , 15 April, 1980 to Fire Code requi rement s, $4 3, OOO is being spent . At Headingley Correct ional Institutio n, some $25 ,0 00 is being spent . There are additional ones . At Headingl ey , a considerable amount , another $174 , 000 is being spent ; at South Grove at Portage , $600 ,0 00 is being estimated ; the Winnipeg School for the Deaf , $200 ,0 00 ; at The Pas , the Keewatin Community College , $34 ,0 00 ; and at various other locations , an additional $100 ,0 00 .0 0.

In addition to that , a fairly substantial one involves supplying the Headingley Institute with a new water supply system for some $600 ,0 00 in the current year. The total project will cost $1 , 070 , OOO, but we are asking for $600 , OOO in this year 's estimates. Mr. Chairman , I think that indicates to the honourable members that again , priorizing the requirements to address ourselves to those fac ilities that house people that are either bedridden or who are inmates in the correct ional institu­ tions , this is the area where the attention is being focussed on with respect to the fire upgrading work. MR .

WALDING: Mr . Chairman , the Minister mentioned that there was a sum , $1 .2 million of a $6 million project at the Assiniboine Community College , and a further $34 ,0 00 at Keewatin Community College . I notice under the Department of Education that they have Acquisition and Construc tion of Physical Assets which shows some quarter of a million at Assiniboine Community College and some $84, 000 at Keewatin Community College .

Perhaps the Honourable Minister can give an explanation to the committee of why there is money in this particular department for education projects , when the Education Department itself has a similar appropriation or resolut ion, and it is acquir ing or constructing physical assets . Why are these matters split between two different departments? MR . ENNS : Mr . Chairman , it is not unusual that depdrtments have addit ional funds for specific renovations which are not included in Government Services money s. I am also informed that perhaps I should retract that state ment .

In many instan ces, it is in the case of other line department s, a matter of special ized equipment , as it is often in the case of Health or in this case , at the community col leges where it likely is having to do with the technical vocational fac ilities that they offer , the acquisit ion of new equi pment , which may involve in some instances a degree of' renovation to accommmodate that equipment , installation costs which the department carries on its own.

I can assure the honoura ble member , though , that the references to any moneys that the honourable member refers to in the Department of Education are in adai­ tion to what is being indicated in these estimates. They do not hinge on the proJects that I have ident ified . MR . WALDING: Mr . Chairman , I asked for an explanation of why there should be additional building at educational institutions paid for by Government Ser­ vices. Does the Minister build new university build ings or does the department build new schools?

Why should those things be under the Public Schools Finance Board or the Univers ities Grant Commission, yet between $1 million and $2 million worth of new constr uction on community colleges be under the Department of Govern­ ment Services? MR . ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I am advised that in the ma tter of construction involving community colleg es, that it has always been under the jurisdiction of government and is not in the budgets of the Public School Finance Board , and that is a matter of some long standing . MR .

WALDING: While I accept what the member sa ys, that it has been done that way for many yea rs , I don 't really think that 's a very good reason for doing it that way . -- (Interject ion)- - Well , maybe trad ition stands higher with gentle­ men opposite than it does for us . I had a couple of other questions on that . Firstly , was there any carry-over of capital authority from the 1978- 79 year to the 1979- 80 year? - 2526 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 198 0 MR . ENNS: Mr. Chairman , as the honourable members are aware , the account­ ing procedures have changed and there is a lapsing of unspent capital which has created a situation where we don't have carry-over capit al. MR . WALDING: Perhaps the Minister could tell us how much capital authority did lapse in that time , a year ago . MR . ENNS : I am advised it was in the order of $1. 6 million. MR . WALDING: Thank you , Mr . Chairman . I would like to know whether the Minister expects to have spent his $15 million that he was given authority for a year ago.

I realize that perhaps not all of the bills are in or all of the ac­ counting has been done since the fiscal year ended just a couple of weeks ago , but can the Minister give us his best guess as of this time whether he will have spent all of the $15 million and , if not , how much does he expect to lapse this year? MR . ENNS: Mr . Chairman , the nature of the kind of construction that we are involved in makes that kind of speculation dicey , but we expect to spend it all and indeed will , as we experienced last year , expend more . MR .

WALDING: I can think of just one other question that I had for the Minister and maybe it would come under his $3 million worth of minor construct ion projects and perhaps renovations , whether there is anything within this appropria­ tion for a new washroom on the second floor for the convenience of female Members of the Legislature? MR . ENNS: Mr . Chairman , that is under act ive consideration . MR . WALDING: Mr . Chairman , I am asking the Minister of his plans for the coming year.

If he says that it is still under consideration , I assume that the amount would not be authorized until the next fiscal year , April 1 of 1981 , and that 's rather a long time to wait for those fac ilities , Mr . Chairman . MR . ENNS : Mr. Chairman , I am informed and indeed have witnessed that no­ body is waiting for the use of those faciliti es . But the design possibilities of acco mmodating the present washroom to more adequately facilitate members of both sexes is in the design stage at the moment .

We don't perceive it to be of a capi­ tal expense item and we would as sume to have the flexibility in our budget to provide that within this set of estimates. MR . WALDING: I am rather pleased to hear that the Minister is confident that he has sufficient flexibility . I understand from his comments , then , that it awaits a policy decisio n by him or by Cabin et , or Treasury Board , or whomever, in order to proceed ; would that be correc t? MR . ENNS: I can assure the honourable member that it does indeed await a policy deci sion at the very highest level. MR . WALDING: Thank you , Mr . Chairman. MR .

CHAIRMAN : 6. --pass - the Honourable Member for Radisson . MR . KOVNATS: Having been in the other committee , I am sorry I haven 't been able to follow the progress of this committee . I was just wondering , where it says, Improvement to Building and Grounds , has been discussed? It is in Item 2. Field Services . If it has been discussed , would I have to wait until we get to the Minister 's Salary before I could ask any que stions? Unless , under the depart­ ment of Acquisition and Construction, to go further on what the Honourable Member for St .

Vital has mentioned concerning washrooms, if these washrooms are going to be built in the very near future , I would hope that they would be adequately fur­ nished with urinals and maybe even some "arsenal s." Mr . Chairman , the importance ••• - 2527 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 MR . ENNS : Mr . Chairman , my est imates are denigrating , quickly . MR . KOVNATS : Mr . Chairman, this Minister comes into my committee and disrupts my committees like I have never had a committee disrupted before in my life . But to get down to something a littl e bit more serious , Mr .

Chairman, I was wondering whether the Honourable Minister has made any plans under Construction to look at the feasibility of construct ing a parking fac ility close to the Legisla­ ture , where we could acc ommodate all the people who cannot find places to park when the House is in session , particula rly . Our staff are looking all over the place for places to park . I know that we are in an energy crisis in this country but I would think that we could endeavour to provide our staff and the members with a truly good , adequate parking fac ility in this ar ea.

I know that years back My honourable friend and I just got back from Grunth al , where we were speaking at a me eting last night , and I know that it has nothing to do with this subject • • • Mr . Chairman , if I can only bang the desk like all the other mem­ bers, because I am not a good debater and I see how it is done where they bang the desk and they shake their hands , but I will speak very calmly . I would like to get back to the idea of this parking facili ty .

I know that there have been plans previously and I don't know if these plans are still around , but would the Honourable Minister please make some comments as to whether he will be providing an adequate parking facility close to the Legislature . In add ition, I really wasn 't trying to be that funny , but I know that we do have some problems with the lack of fac ilities for going to the washroom - I don't want to get vulgar about it , alt hough this is a subject that has to be discussed , considering that we have had some complaints from some of the honourable members about inadequate toilet facilities .

Would the Honoura ble Minister care to comment on it? MR . CHAIRMAN: 6. --p ass. MR . KOVNATS: Mr . Chairman , am I to assume that the Honourable Minister is refusing to comment and answer the questions that were directly placed to him just a few minutes earlier? With the no comment , am I to as sume that he has plans and is proceeding with a toilet facility for the member who is lacking one , and a parking facility for the people who can't find places to park their cars? MR . BLAKE : Mr . Chairman, on a point of orde r. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa on a point of order . MR .

BLAKE : Yes, on a point of order , Mr . Chairman , in case the member hasn 't been informed . I suppose he was in the other committee MR . KOVNATS : I don 't think that he has a point of order , Mr . Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: It 's my judgement , when he MR . BLAKE: The facility that he refers to is sitt ing in our caucus room and will be delivered at a proper opportunity for the membe r. MR . KOVNATS : Mr . Chairman, I don't believe the honourable member did have a point of order , and I would hope you would rule that MR . CHAIRMAN: I don 't think he did have a point of order . We 'r e on 6. --p ass .

Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $15 ,7 79 ,0 00 for Government Services , Acquisition/ Construction of Physical Assets--p ass . Now we' re back to Resolution 70 , General Administrat ion, 1. (

a) Minister 's Compensation--p ass . The Member for Elmwood . - 2528 -

Tuesday , 15 April, 1980 MR . DOERN : Mr. Chairman , I think the members on this side have been treat­ ed to the spectacle of what a Conservative caucus meeting is like . We 'r e very happy to sit in on one . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Radisson on a point of order . MR . KOVNATS : I would just like to advise the members here this evening that we have just completea the est imates of the Department of Natural Resour ces , which I chaired , and I had nothing to do with any caucus meetings in the caucus room this evening . MR . DO ERN : I would thank the Honourable Member from Grunthal for his re­ marks . Mr .

Chairman , I want to make some remarks on the Minister 's Salary . I wanted to ask a question or two first . We asked bef ore the dinner break if we could get a report on the number of civil servants . Now we had this information last year , and I j ust wonder if we could have the current figures, partic ularly last year, compared to the present time . MR . ENNS: Mr .

Chairman , the figures , as I have them , and I would remind the honourable member that he more appropriately direct this question to the Min­ ister responsible for the Civil Service, but I did attempt to acquire these fig­ ures for the honourable member , and I give him this for his informat ion. In De­ cember , 1977 , there were some 12 ,3 7 6 members in the civil service which includes ter m. In December , 1978 , the figure was 11,7 47. MR . DOERN : Could I have that ag ain , please? MR . ENNS : December , 1978 , 11, 747 ; Decembe r, 1979 , 11,5 55. MR . DOERN : And today? MR .

ENNS: Full-t ime civil service and term employees , not to be confused with the other classifications of casual as employed by Highways or other depart­ ments . This is civil service and term. MR. DOERN : Do we then assume that is still the existing figure or have there been additions and subtractions in the last four months? MR . ENNS: I would have to indicate , recalli ng my information that I see , as a Treasury Board member , that it is fairly constant , there has not been a not­ able change in the las t four months . MR . DOERN : Mr .

Chairman , can the Minister describe the construction of any buildings, since this is the constr uction arm of the government , that his adminis­ tration, first of all , conceived , designed and constructed since Octob er, '7 7. The only one I can think offhand that 's new is the Broadway Building which was some $2 .5 million expenditu re . Are there any others that come to mind? MR. ENNS : Mr .

Chairman, let me just once more say , and I think the honour­ able members are ent itled to avail themselves of this occasion to make their ge­ neral comments with respect to how this particular administrator is running the departmen t. I indicate to them that it 's not my intention on the Minister 's Salary to answer in question period ; I think we have gone over the ground reason­ ably well in the last few days.

But let me make this point very clear , that fully 30 percent of our capital budget is being spent on those unseen but yet vitally important projects , namely , upgrading of our health and correct ional fac ilities in this province, 30 percent of our total budget . I take some pride in that figure. It indicates the seriousness with which we maintain our commitmen t.

As we came into office , I recognize that it doesn 't build too many tangible new buildings around the province, but that point should be remember ed , that a full 30 percent of our budget is being expended in those areas that in my judgement the moneys are perhaps most pressingly required , in our health institutio ns , in our mental homes , in our correctional facilities where people are bedridden and/or detained . - 2529 -

Tuesday , 15 April , 1980 In addition to that - and the former Honourable Minister wishes to make a point that some of the projects that have been identified in our construction period are carrying on or a completion of some of the projects that were initiated by his government - I would have to indicate the major one , of course , which now finally sees some steps to completi on , namely , the Provincial Judges Building , was initi­ ated in 1966 , or '6 5 even , by the then administration and languished for four years of that administration and a further eight years of the NDP administration and is now to a point where actual moneys are going to be spent for design and the start-up of that building .

The other projects the honourable members are aware of, they have been informed of their nature and their approximate cost estimates. MR . DOERN : Mr. Chairman , this is where we will disagree on a few points. Yes, the new court building is one of the best announcements the Government Ser­ vices Minister can make , because it was announced I guess in '6 5, maybe in 16 8. I announced it in '7 4, reannounced it in '7 5 and the Minister is reannounc ing it in 1980 . But some things were done in the meantime . We built the Woodsworth Build­ ing which was vital to doing something about the court system in Manitoba .

That was consider ed at one point to be the Justice Building and in fact was named for J.S. Woodsworth , because of a broader connotation of social justice which must , I think , be the ult imate goal of the court s. There were many floors of that build­ ing allocated to the Land Ti tles Office, the Crown Attorney s, the Protonotary , and many other people , and that was vital to improving the justice situat ion. In add ition to that , land was acquired for a new building ; in addition to that , the Public Safety Building was leased and operated by the province and the renovations to the Law Courts commenced .

So there was quite a bit done in improving that situation . I believe it 's because of stallin g and delay that you had a worsening of the backlog of court cases in Manitoba . Our Attorney-Gener al , who is now the Leader of the Opp osition, fought and was successful by '7 4 to '7 5 to get approval for a new court building and then steps were taken to work in that direct ion and to undertake the planning of a Law Court s' renovation. So steps were taken and the Minister knows full well that when a decision is taken , you do not then the next day commence construct ion of a building .

When you take the decision , then you have to plan the program and that may take a year , and it might take more . In the case of the judges , I think both of us agree that the judges are difficult people to deal with. They are appointed for life ; they are not like politicians ; they don't have to sati sfy a constituency or a Premier, and they tend to have pretty strong views and be highly independent .

So I' m saying that I think the Minister dese rves credit for the new building on Broadway but other than that , all he has done in terms of actual ef­ fort is to reannounce new construction and reannounce renovatio ns, but there 's been no ac tion on that front yet . The other thing is, I was happy to see finally , after two-and-a-ha lf years of fooling around , that the Provincial Garage is going to be used . I really think that the manner in which the government handled that facility is deplorable , be­ cause that facility was 90 percent completed when the government took ov er.

It was ready to be used in January of 1978, a little over two years ago . Instead of using the fac ility and moving the staff , which is now going to be done , the build­ ing was deliberately , politicall y , delib erately kept empty in the sense of not used for its intended purpose . This was strictly a political ploy ; it was strict­ ly the result of the posturing of the First Minister , who during the elect ion campa ign, decided that the previous government had spent money in some areas that he didn't like .

He , somehow or oth er , centred on this particul ar building , and because he made statements that it wasn 't needed , the Minister of Govern