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October 18, 2017

41st Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2017-Oct-18 (PDF)

L106 - Wed 18 Oct 2017 / Mer 18 oct 2017

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L’ONTARIO

Wednesday 18 October 2017 Mercredi 18 octobre 2017

Fair Workplaces, Better Jobs Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 pour l’équité en milieu de travail et de meilleurs emplois

Introduction of Visitors

Gord Downie

W. Donald Cousens

Oral Questions

Government accounting practices

Government accounting practices

Hydro rates

Government accounting practices

Government accountability

Government accountability

Poverty

Government accounting practices

Dental care

Health care

Horse racing industry

Air quality

Fire safety

Government accounting practices

Correction of record

Private members’ public business

Deferred Votes

Fair Workplaces, Better Jobs Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 pour l’équité en milieu de travail et de meilleurs emplois

Visitors

Introduction of Visitors

Members’ Statements

“Be an Explorer”

Windsor poets

Diwali

Canadian Automobile Association

School trustees

Azerbaijani community

Markdale hospital

Community Health and Wellbeing Week

School bus drivers

Introduction of Bills

Ontario Forestry Revitalization Act (14 Storey Wood Frame Buildings), 2017 / Loi de 2017 sur la revitalisation de la foresterie en Ontario (bâtiments à ossature de bois de 14 étages)

Statements by the Ministry and Responses

Persons Day

Petitions

Criminal justice policies

Services for persons with disabilities

Elevator maintenance

Public transit

Long-term care

Long-term care

Sexual violence and harassment

Long-term care

Pharmacare

GO Transit

Organic products

Government advertising

Long-term care

Private members’ public business

Orders of the Day

Strengthening Quality and Accountability for Patients Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 renforçant la qualité et la responsabilité pour les patients

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Good morning. Please join me in prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

Fair Workplaces, Better Jobs Act, 2017 / Loi de 2017 pour l’équité en milieu de travail et de meilleurs emplois

Resuming the debate adjourned on October 4, 2017, on the motion for second reading of the following bill:

Bill 148,

An Act to amend the Employment Standards Act, 2000 and the Labour Relations Act, 1995 and to make related amendments to other Acts / Projet de loi 148, Loi modifiant la Loi de 2000 sur les normes d’emploi et la Loi de 1995 sur les relations de travail et apportant des modifications connexes à d’autres lois.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further debate?

Mr. Jack MacLaren: It is my pleasure to speak to Bill 148 this morning.

Small businesses are the backbone of Ontario’s economy. They create 75% to 80% of all the jobs in Ontario. Government should make policies that support small businesses, not policies that will harm small businesses, but Bill 148 does just that. It will bring great harm to many small businesses across Ontario and great harm to the economy of Ontario.

According to the Canadian Centre for Economic Analysis, this new bill will result in a $23-billion cost for Ontario businesses, and small businesses will bear the brunt of this. A study done by the TD Bank estimates 70,000 jobs may be lost; the Financial Accountability Office has determined that 50,000 jobs may be lost. The people most likely to be laid off are those who need the jobs most: students, teenagers, young adults and recent immigrants.

I have spent a lot of time speaking with business owners over the past few months in my riding and I would like to share some of the stories with you. Dave Rowe owns a Sobeys store franchise in Kanata. Most of his employees are minimum wage workers. There are 100 Sobeys stores across the province. Sobeys Ontario projects their labour costs will increase by $20 million; for Dave Rowe, his labour costs will increase by $200,000. He says that he will have no choice but to reduce hours in order to try to keep the price of food from rising. He fears this will mean a reduced level of service to his customers.

This bill will hit the restaurant industry especially hard. The average pre-tax profit for a restaurant is 3.4%. One Ottawa-area restaurant owner said the increase in minimum wage is going to cost him over $37,000 in servers alone, but he fears the real cost will be much higher.

He believes there will be upward pressure on kitchen wages as well. Only two of his employees make less than $15 per hour, and they are dishwashers. His cooks, who are skilled workers, have begun expressing a desire for higher wages because they do not think it is right or fair to earn the same wage as an unskilled worker. All of these pressures will likely amount to an increase of $88,000 per year.

He will have to increase the prices of the meals he serves. Right now, a pint of beer costs $9.40. When the $15 minimum wage kicks in on January 1, 2019, the new cost of a pint of beer will be $12.70. The restaurant owner fears that he will lose customers because people will not go out as often, and when they do go out, they will purchase less and tip their servers less.

But it is not just the too much, too soon minimum wage increase that will harm his business. He is also very worried about the new regulation that will force him to pay an employee for cancelling their shifts within two days of their scheduled shift. The restaurant industry requires a certain number of servers per customer in order to ensure they can deliver the best service. The problem is that customer reservations are not always reliable. This is especially true when it comes to large groups. He explained that big groups cancel at the last minute all the time.

They book for the maximum number of people in advance and then confirm a smaller number of people the day before. The restaurant owner makes schedules and books his servers’ shifts weeks in advance, but when final reservations are confirmed, he can end up having 30 fewer customers than he thought, so he will have to cancel a server’s shift.

Restaurant owners need the flexibility of being able to bring in more or less workers on short notice to be able to run an efficient, effective and profitable business. Is it fair to make a business owner pay their employees for three hours of work when their own customers cancel at the last minute? If these cancellations happen only twice a month, it will cost this business owner an additional $1,000. This is in excess of the $88,000 he will already be forced to pay because of the increase in minimum wage.

It is no wonder why all of these changes have made him reconsider whether he will renew his lease when it is done in 2019. He may just close up shop. You see, Mr. Speaker, while the government argues that this bill will be good for workers, the end result may be they will have no jobs at all.

Another Ottawa-area business owner, France Brown, started her pastry bakeshop business five years ago in her home in Kanata. She sold her baked goods at farmers’ markets. Her business has done well. She rented a commercial space six months ago and grew her business. She now has four and a half employees and business is good.

But there is a problem. Bill 148 will increase her labour costs by 32% in one year. France will have to reduce her employees’ hours for her business to survive. France will have to do more work herself, and she already works very long hours. She had ambitions of opening two more stores in the Ottawa area, but that dream is now gone. The $15-per-hour minimum wage is more than her business can bear.

The owner of a local retail supply company has a healthy, successful business. He said that half his employees are paid minimum wage. He told me that Bill 148 will cost him an additional $100,000. The wintertime is a slow time for his business, but he has always been able to keep all his employees working for the winter. This winter, for the first time, he will have to lay off many of his minimum wage employees because he cannot afford to keep them on. He said that the workers will collect employment insurance from the government for the winter. Bill 148 will cause these workers to make less money, not more.

The city of Seattle passed a $15-per-hour minimum wage bylaw a few years ago. The result has been that small businesses have laid off some workers or reduced hours. The consequences for workers have been fewer jobs, less hours and no increase in net income to the workers. It has been a failure. Ontario should learn a lesson from Seattle and cancel Bill 148. It will hurt businesses. It will hurt workers. Government should stay out of business.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Victor Fedeli: Thank you very much, Speaker, for the opportunity to respond. I can read you a letter from Carolann Paquette in North Bay. She says,

“Good morning Vic,

“I just want to ask if you can pass a message to” the Premier.

“Thank her for the hike in minimum wage ... now my boss had to cut back my full-time hours to account for the increase.

“Now I’m going to get less than I was before.

“Not a very good decision.

“I have children ... now I’m worried even more how ... I’m going to make ends meet.” I promised Carolann I would read her letter.

Interjection.

Mr. Victor Fedeli: I know the member from Barrie doesn’t enjoy hearing from my riding members, but I am reading Carolann Paquette’s letter.

I have another letter from Rahn Plastics in North Bay. They are in favour of many aspects of Bill 148; however—I’m quoting from their letter—“a 32% wage increase is not financially sustainable for all companies. It must be done in a way that won’t devastate or break companies. The goal is to have workers employed, but this drastic increase will cause job losses for sure! This will not only affect minimum wage workers but it will offset a chain reaction for other more senior workers as well.” It goes on to say, “Should minimum wage be increased? Absolutely, but it needs to be done in a way that won’t break businesses.”

These are two of the many letters that I have received. They back up what we’ve heard from the Ontario Chamber of Commerce, from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, what we’ve heard from the TD Bank, who tells us of the devastating losses, and from our own Financial Accountability Officer, who talks about the 50,000 people who will lose their jobs.

Nobody is arguing about job losses; what they’re arguing about is just how many tens of thousands will lose their job.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Michael Mantha: Thank you, Speaker, and good morning to you.

I listened to the comments the member made, and he’s correct in a few things. Yes, it will be hard on small business as the minimum wage comes in and as some of these changes come through. However, if you don’t help them, if you don’t put the programs in place in order to support small business, as we had proposed and as we have been talking about for many years—it is no surprise, coming from the NDP, that we’ve been talking about an increase in the minimum wage. Nobody should be surprised about that.

When we’ve talked to small business, a lot of small businesses—and I’ve heard all three parties saying that everybody knows that the minimum wage has to go up. The biggest problem is that the minimum wage has been stalled since the late 1990s at a rate that has not been at all respectful of the workers who are in this province. So yes, it’s going to be a challenge. But to eliminate some of those challenges or to assist small business with those challenges, you look at few programs that we’ve talked about when we had our election platform in the last provincial election.

One of them was: You create a job; you get a tax incentive. Go figure. If you create a job, you get a little bit of help. You get an incentive in order to offset those costs. Also, you look at reducing the small business tax. Small businesses are really challenged; everything has been downloaded on them, so you look at reducing that rate. That will help them. Getting hydro under control will help them as well in order to bring in more opportunities for employment in order for them to secure their future so they can thrive, so they can be part of the community.

I hear what many are saying: The challenges are there. Of course they will be. But it’s our role as parliamentarians to provide those incentives, to provide those programs in order to make the transition a lot easier on small business.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Eglinton–Lawrence.

Mr. Mike Colle: I appreciate the comments from the member from Mississippi Mills. He certainly expressed his point of view, which this place is all about.

I just want to remind him—we mentioned Sobeys. I know that the national president of Sobeys of Canada—it’s called the Empire group—made a very dramatic statement where he said that they are going to be able to do right by their workers, and that they’re not going to take out any of this change on the backs of their workers. That was an amazing statement by someone who is the head of a national company like Sobeys, so credit to him for saying that.

I also want to mention that this is about 1.6 million Ontarians. They don’t want handouts; they want to work. That’s what it’s about. Yes, there are going to be challenges; we all know that. But what about the daily challenge the 1.6 million people have who work part-time, temporary, contract, running from job to job—what about them? Do they not need some consideration? And what about the labour protections they’re going to get in this legislation: equal pay for equal work; you get more protection for vacation pay.

Because right now, a lot of temporary part-time workers are treated like second-class citizens in the workplace when they do the same thing. In this bill, there’s an update of the Employment Standards Act. That hasn’t been done in 20 years. That’s what it’s about too. Sure, it’s about business, big and small, but it’s about 1.6 million Ontarians who work sometimes as caregivers, cleaners; they work in the service industry. They also deserve some consideration, and it’s about time they caught up to the rest of us.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments.

Mr. Rick Nicholls: It’s a pleasure to rise and speak to this particular bill. You know, we’ve heard that with this minimum wage increase, we’re looking at a 32% increase by January 1, 2019. Well, I have some very serious concerns, because the former Minister of Economic Development and Growth—sorry, I guess he’s still the minister. He talks about how the province is growing. He should come to the riding of Chatham-Kent and talk to the people there who have lost their jobs.

Throughout the province, we have learned that there has been a decrease in jobs in the manufacturing sector by 28%, so as he talks about all the new business that’s coming into Ontario, talks about the headlights, I’m sorry, Speaker, but I’m not seeing headlights; I’m seeing tail lights, and they’re moving fast.

My biggest concern is the young people of today, because today’s young people—we’re supposed to be having opportunity for jobs for them, and they’re looking at it and saying, “Where are the jobs? Where are the jobs going to be?” This government can talk about education and free education, but they’re closing schools, and as a result of that students are in jeopardy. And of course, then there aren’t any jobs. We’ve got a strike going on right now as well. Maybe these students should be coming to the government and asking for a rebate. Of course, the government will say, “Well, there’s no rebate because we didn’t charge you in the first place.”

My biggest concern, though, again, is the fact that there are numbers that have come out that, in the next two years, we could be losing up to 165,000 jobs if this goes in, because small businesses cannot adjust quickly enough. I have some very serious concerns about them. On top of the hydro rates and everything else going on right now, small business is going to die, and it will be as a result of this government’s failed policies.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Carleton–Mississippi Mills has two minutes to respond.

Mr. Jack MacLaren: I’d like to thank the members who commented, especially the member from Algoma–Manitoulin—very thoughtful comments. I agree with him that the best way—I’d like to say, we all would like to see workers make as much as they can. To do that, we need a healthy economy.

We do all recognize, I believe, that small business is the backbone of the economy. It creates 70% to 85% of the jobs. Incentives to small business are an excellent idea, and I agree with him on that. Hydro bills are too high—and all of the various things that currently are going on that do hurt business. There’s a certain federal element that wants to tax the heck out of small business. Certainly, in my riding, I have an information meeting tomorrow night to speak out against that, because that’s going to hurt small business in a very severe and major way.

Any time government creates an impediment to small business, it ultimately goes down the chain to the workers at the lowest end and they are the first ones to get hurt. We need to realize that small business needs to be healthy so they have the money to be able to pay higher wages to workers. That is the best way to raise wages, and the only way that it will be done sustainably.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate.

Mr. Bill Walker: It’s a pleasure to rise today and speak to Bill 148, the Fair Workplaces, Better Jobs Act. I think everyone that has spoken since this announcement has come out is in favour of a higher minimum wage. The reality is how quickly they’re doing it and the impact on businesses; 32% or 38% over 18 months is just too much, particularly for those small businesses that had no idea this was coming and have no ability to flex. I think, at the end of the day, it’s a lot of spin.

It’s saying that we’re trying to help those people, but at the end of the day, when you’re suggesting you want to get people ahead in life and you do things like this, we’re fearful that it’s actually going to be very detrimental to the very people that they’re saying it’s going to help.

Every industry—public, private, non-profit—is sounding alarms about the negative outcomes of this bill’s tight timelines. Will workers really get ahead? Will they really decrease personal debt loads?

The Ontario Federation of Agriculture has warned that the tight timeline around Bill 148 threatens jobs and Ontario’s ever-rising cost of living. Specifically, the OFA has said, “The cost of everyday consumer goods and services will go up by $1,300” per family “on average each and every year.”

Is that helping or hindering? This outcome should absolutely raise concern. It runs counter to every poverty reduction plan in Ontario, as families living on the margins will find it harder and harder to put food on the table and cover their everyday expenses. In other words, there’s a very high likelihood that whatever gains are made in the wage bump will be annulled by the corresponding hike in living expenses, and everyone will actually be impacted in a negative way.

Labour costs in the farming industry in Ontario can account for more than 50% of production, so farmers are very concerned with prepping for a wage increase of 21% by 2018. The question becomes, how do you absorb the tight timeline? Do farmers transfer the costs of production on to consumers, or do they actually themselves try to absorb the entire production cost increase? Without a fair and realistic plan, the OFA foresees a reduction in domestic food production. That’s not good for any of us. And that, too, runs counterproductive to the Liberal promises made in 2013 to increase Ontario’s food production growth rate and create 120,000 jobs by 2020. It just won’t happen.

We hear the agriculture minister in this House always giving the fluff, and how supportive he is of that industry. Where was he on this issue? Why wasn’t he out listening and hearing from the people actually on the ground that are telling him that this is very concerning? The accelerated and tight timeline around minimum wage means that the Liberals’ pledge to the agri-food sector will be annulled. What’s worse, it will also make our farmers and agri-food businesses less competitive and it could, in fact, threaten Ontario’s food security, as well as undermine the sustainability and variety of agricultural products available to Ontarians.

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that you’re promoting and you’re supportive and then do things like this and stand in this House and vote for it—when he knows very well that the whole industry, the whole Ontario Federation of Agriculture, is saying, “This is wrong. It’s way too fast. Slow it down.” Yet I haven’t heard him once in this House say that he would even consider that type of an approach.

The fast-tracked implementation will ultimately eliminate jobs in rural areas and diminish economic development opportunities in Ontario, according to the OFA. I think the food producers have very valid concerns, and the government must take these serious negative effects of their reforms under consideration. The only way to do this is to subject each and every proposed reform in the Changing Workplaces Review to an economic impact analysis. If they had done this, you would hope that they wouldn’t have gone ahead, at least in the manner they are, and steamrolled it without any thought process to what the impacts are going to be.

Moving to the child care sector, child care centres are also warning of the tight timeline around Bill 148 and how it threatens daycare affordability.

Kids & Us Community Childcare and Family Education Centres runs six non-profit child care centres, 11 before- and after-school programs and three Ontario early years centres in my riding alone. With 83 staff, the tight timeline with Bill 148 will translate into a $233,500 hike to their budget. Is that going to be a good thing? Do you think kids are going to get more attention or less attention? Where does that money come from when their funding is virtually frozen?

Executive director Michelle Knott writes, “We’re regulated for minimum staffing requirements and so we cannot reduce staffing as a cost-savings measure ... and so we will be left with no choice but to increase child care fees on parents.”

Again, those same parents who they’re suggesting are going to get a better life because of this wage increase are actually going to get hit in their wallet right after this becomes law.

What is the support this government will provide to every parent who won’t be able to afford that hike in their child’s care daycare fees? Child care is already expensive and is pushing a lot of family budgets to the limit. Ontario families are, in fact, grappling with the highest daycare fees in the country.

Knott says, “We do not oppose an increase to minimum wage, however an increase should be graduated in to afford these non-profit child care centres the time to adjust.” That’s what we’ve been saying all the way along.

Let’s turn to the high school sector. High school co-op teachers have also expressed concern, as have the students. I was just speaking to a grade 10 civics class in Owen Sound, and the students there are very concerned about what’s going to happen to them. Where are their part-time jobs? Where are their summer jobs? They are very, very concerned about this initiative. I’ve never really seen them get as excited about something as they are, but it’s because it’s actually going to have a detrimental, negative impact.

One of those co-op teachers writes, “Small business community partners do a great job supporting our high school co-op students.”

One co-op teacher, Frank Bianchi, writes, “With the (accelerated) minimum wage and the average co-op student working 200 hours, what support is this government willing to provide to get more small business community members on board?”

This teacher wants to know if the government has considered a tax break to help support the partnership between local small businesses and high school co-op students. He says, “Remember these high school co-op students are our sons/daughters that live in our community and will one day be running this country, as they are our future. This is what the education system is supposed to be all about, preparing them for real life. What better way to do that than have them experience it first-hand?”

Mr. Speaker, I couldn’t agree more. That opportunity to have co-op placements, to actually get some experience, but also to help those businesses in a manner that is productive for them—customer service experience, the opportunity to be out in the community. This is absolutely something that, again, could be very much a negative impact to them and something that, if we go forward with this legislation, could have monumental negative impacts to our communities.

In a nutshell, there has to be a support plan to ensure that high school co-op placements continue to be available despite these changes.

These are all concerns that were echoed by the local chambers of commerce, including the Meaford Chamber of Commerce and the Owen Sound and District Chamber of Commerce, who held dozens of round-table discussions with local businesses.

Businesses in Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound, from food processors, distribution companies, seed and fertilizer producers to manufacturers, are very worried about how this act will play out.

Bill Gamble, who owns and operates the UPS Store in Owen Sound; Colleen Newell, who employs 47 employees at Colpepper’s Ltd; Glenn Wilson, who runs Joe Tomato’s restaurant in Owen Sound; Dale Cousins of Hanover Canadian Tire; Diane Ellah of the Candle Factory in Meaford; Gordon Price of the Dam Pub; Daryl Prince of the Good Health Mart; Peter Knipfel in Chesley; Luke Simpson of Durham Furniture; Nella Monaco-Wells of the Bookstore in Durham—and municipalities that, just like all of us, are here to support better wages but aren’t clear about who will foot the bill of the financial burden and what the impacts are going to be.

We’re talking about a $23-billion bill over the next two years alone. So there’s that—the $23 billion—and there are the associated losses, and the ripple negative effect of job losses and a down cycle of economic opportunity.

The Canadian Centre for Economic Analysis, CANCEA, concludes that 185,000 Ontario jobs will be at immediate risk over the next two years; 30,000 of those jobs at risk are youth under 25. Again, those students who talked to me are very much concerned, and here is a third-party organization that’s saying, “Here’s exactly what we see happening.” Some 96,000 employees at risk are expected to be women and there is an expected 50% increase to inflation for this year and the foreseeable future, increasing everyday consumer goods and services by up to $1,300 per household each and every year.

The Ontario government alone would need to borrow $440 million more to cover the increases in new costs from this legislation. The cupboard is bare. They just borrowed $25 billion on the backs of our youth to cover the Fair Hydro Act—or unfair hydro act, as I believe it will come to be known as—and now they’re going to borrow $440 million more for something that, again, is simply going to have a negative impact.

Finally, I also want to voice concerns from the Ontario tourism association. The association represents 180,000 businesses across Ontario and some 372,000 workers; 6,200 of those jobs are located in my riding of Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound. Their ask is the same: Change the scheduled increases and roll them out over a longer period.

To answer the crucial questions around this bill—Will workers really get ahead? Will their debt loads really disappear or decrease?—consider their cost of living will go up for everything, from buying food to heating their home to putting gas in the car to paying for daycare. They will hardly achieve any of the promises.

That’s why at committee, we introduced amendments to require a cost-benefit analysis before the bill comes into force and an economic impact assessment of the bill in 2018. The Liberals rejected these common-sense amendments.

While we support raising the minimum wage, we’re left with no choice but to vote against it, because we need them to slow down. That’s the feedback we’re getting from people.

Interjection.

Mr. Bill Walker: Someone’s heckling about, “It’s not very positive.” Sadly, it isn’t positive. It’s yet another bill that’s going to be detrimental to the people of Ontario. It is our job as the opposition, as that member typically always shares, to be critical. It is our job to hold the government to account. On this bill, we certainly have to. Groups have come out of the woodwork that really don’t ever contact my office and said, “Bill, what are they doing this time?” This is yet another hit to our economy.

It’s a hit to our youth, it’s a hit to the everyday and, most importantly, those less fortunate—who they try to spin in the media they’re going to help out. Those are the very people that I think, at the end of the day, are going to be impacted the most negatively by this bill.

Mr. Speaker, it needs to slow down. We need to ensure the people of Ontario can afford this and that it will truly help them, if we do it the right way.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Miss Monique Taylor: I listened intently to the member from Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound. New Democrats get the fact that small businesses need support. There is no doubt that there needs to be a balance when bringing in measures such as this. But we also know that people have been living below the poverty line for—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Stop the clock. Folks, I can’t even hear this person speaking. If you could cut it back—or if you want to have a group discussion, please take it outside.

Continue.

Miss Monique Taylor: Thank you, Speaker.

We also know that folks have been living below the poverty line while going to work each and every day, playing by the rules, and yet the system has failed them. That is due to the lack of increases in the minimum wage.

It wasn’t that long ago that the government thought $11.40 was okay for folks. Now that we’re coming into an election, the Premier sees that her likability and her ratings are not doing well, so she’s decided to implement the $15 quickly, without balance to protect small business.

We know that it’s going to be a challenge. We hope that we will be able to convince the government to ensure that there are provisions in place to support small business, but we know that people need to be able to make a decent living. The economy will only do better if people have money in their pockets to be able to spend at the grocery store, to be able to spend at the corner store, to be able to buy the necessities they need to survive in life. Without the $15, it just makes it that much harder.

Our economy is made up of precarious work. We have people working two and three part-time jobs at very low wages. It doesn’t allow for a family to be able to sometimes pay for that extra bus fare they need to get their kids to school.

I’m happy to see the $15 minimum wage, but we need to ensure that the government finds the balance and supports small business at the same time.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The Minister of Children and Youth Services.

Hon. Michael Coteau: I think that there’s a pretty clear choice here for Ontarians. I think that there’s no question in my mind that the Progressive Conservative Party has lost touch with the people they represent here in Ontario. They’ve been standing up, it seems, for everyone except the people of Ontario.

Here’s what we stand for and here’s what the Progressive Conservatives stand for. You have to remember, people don’t have to go too far back in time to understand that when that party was in power, the minimum wage in this province was $6.85. That wasn’t long ago; that was in 2003. Just to illustrate the type of party they are and the policies they have, even the most vulnerable people that were out there, people who were on social assistance—they cut their amount received per month by 33%. So we know exactly where they’re coming from.

And the NDP—the last time we brought this up in 2014 and we put together a panel and we raised the minimum wage, where were the NDP? People were looking for the NDP to speak on the issue, and where were they? They were trying to reposition themselves into the middle. They were silent on this issue. They didn’t say a word. So it’s actually quite hilarious to stand here in the Legislature and listen to the NDP talk about the minimum wage. They always position themselves as the party of the people, but they were silent on the issue in the last election because they wanted to reposition their party to the middle. They should be ashamed of themselves.

And the PCs—you know what? Start standing up for the people of Ontario, because every single time you stand up in the House you talk about the people of Ontario, but you don’t fight for them. This is about decency. It’s about earning a fair wage.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments.

Mr. Ross Romano: Thank you to the minister for his heated response. However, I must respectfully disagree. The people that I have spoken to throughout my riding and the people who have spoken throughout this province do not support this initiative that the Liberal government is proposing right now. They do not support it. In fact, they are crying over it. And they continually say that no one is against a $15 minimum wage; no one has a struggle with that. The struggle isn’t the increase; it’s the time in which it’s being implemented. Businesses cannot possibly survive at that pace.

Mr. Todd Smith: It’s purely political.

Mr. Ross Romano: It is entirely political, simply to garner votes before an election. Why is it that at the last election cycle, that government and their leader suggested that it was okay to have this minimum wage increase but it should happen incrementally; it should happen at the rate of inflation; it should happen at a rate that allows businesses the opportunity to not have to bleed jobs, to not have to find a way to come up with that money overnight.

This cannot be handled by these businesses. I’ve spoken to a number of people within my community, businesses owners and the like, who continually say the same thing over and over again: We will have to bleed jobs as a result of this. We’ll have to cut jobs. They can’t afford it. In my community alone, we’re hearing about 1,400 jobs that will be lost as a result this—1,400 jobs in a community of 70,000 people.

The effects across the province—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Stop the clock. Have a seat, please.

Folks, I know it’s a touchy subject, but we’re yelling to each other about our responses and people are talking at random, openly. It’s very difficult to keep order. Please try to cut it back. I’m being very flexible this morning, not my normal self, so let’s try to keep it a little nicer.

Start the clock. Continue.

Mr. Ross Romano: I would say in conclusion here: Please, listen to the Financial Accountability Officer of Ontario. Listen to the people of Ontario. Listen to your own words. Listen to what your own leader said at the last election. We can get to a minimum wage increase, but it has to happen over time. What you’re doing is going to cost Ontario jobs.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Essex.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: I’m pleased to join the debate this morning and comment on our colleague the member from—Huron-Grey-Bruce?

Mr. Bill Walker: Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound. It’s early.

I’ve travelled within my riding of Essex and talked to many people about Bill 148. They are cautiously optimistic that some of the reforms will help support those who we know need the help most: those who are in precarious working conditions, our youth, students who are entering the workforce for the first time. But, of course, there are some cautions, and New Democrats have explained them and elaborated on them quite clearly to the government over multiple years.

We know that small businesses in Ontario are massive job creators. In fact, they’re the largest job creators. That comes with inherent challenges and risks, and we have to be ready to support them. New Democrats, in the last election, put forward ideas around a job creation tax credit whereby if you create a job, you get a tax credit.

I think of Joe Colasanti in Ruthven at Colasanti’s Tropical Gardens. They have a greenhouse there. Joe is one of the first employers that a young person would go to. He takes in a lot of young people. He provides training—health and safety and workplace training, all the tools you would need to enter into the workforce. Joe would certainly benefit and should benefit for the time that he invests into young workers by a tax credit. That’s something that could offset some of the stress and strain of an escalating minimum wage.

Also, we think that Joe, as a small business operator, should have a corresponding or correlating small business tax reduction. That’s another idea that New Democrats have proposed.

One of the issues that I’m hearing in my riding is not in a common area of small business, but those families who are on self-directed funding for support for their family members who have special needs. They are going to suffer. This is going to hurt them hard, because if the minimum wage goes up, they won’t have the corresponding revenue to add those hours. We have to ensure they have the appropriate resources to take care of their families.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound has two minutes to respond.

Mr. Bill Walker: I’d like to thank the members from Hamilton Mountain and Essex, and my colleague from Sault Ste. Marie, who brought up a good point that it’s really votes for election, what this bill is about. It’s not really about helping people.

The minister of children and youth started off by saying we had lost touch. Well, I want to remind him that the chamber of commerce has come out very directly and said this is a wrong move. The Canadian Federation of Independent Business and the Ontario Federation of Agriculture have all come out and said this is going way too fast.

When I think about lost touch, the people of Ontario tell me about $330 billion this government has put us in debt. These young people in front of you are wearing that every day—the highest debt in the country, the highest hydro rates. They’re going to close 600 schools across our province. The Auditor General came out yesterday with a special report, a scathing report about this government and the things that they’re doing to actually play with numbers and not be accountable and transparent to the people of Ontario. And he has the audacity to say we’ve lost touch?

Our job is to listen to the people of Ontario, to bring comments and concerns to this government and say, “You’re going in the wrong direction.” I’m very concerned that he would stand up and do an electioneering speech here and preach to us that we have lost touch. We are doing exactly what we’re supposed to do. We’ve listened to those small businesses. We’ve listened to seniors who are very concerned. We’ve listened to young kids, high-school-age kids who are telling me, “We’re not going to have jobs if this goes through.”

Interjection.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Barrie.

Mr. Bill Walker: We’re hearing from the less fortunate in our communities saying this is going to have a detrimental impact. Even Kathleen Wynne’s minister—when media questioned about a report from the Financial Accountability Officer that shows at least 50,000 jobs will be lost as a result of this legislation, the minister said, and I quote—

Interjection.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Stop the clock. The member from Barrie, I just asked her, and not two seconds later she said another thing. Please, I don’t want to take it up a notch.

Finish.

Mr. Bill Walker: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When the minister was asked, and I quote what Mr. Flynn said: “Well, I think they could look at pricing, obviously that’s one thing that obviously any business would do....” Yes, just throw more costs onto the people who already are struggling under this government’s reign—reign of terror.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Well, that’s quite an extraordinary way to end off a speech.

I stand in support of the bill, but it’s critical support because I think there’s a lot that’s missing.

I want to address the minimum wage issue first off. As many of my colleagues have said, and certainly as my party has been pushing for since April of last year, we need a much higher minimum wage. There’s no getting around it. This government was not particularly in favour of a higher minimum wage up until about April of this year. Reporters have talked about the Premier being asked, in February or March of this year, did she think we needed to go further? Did she think we needed to go to $15 an hour? “No, not particularly.” But elections and polls are amazing things. Elections move mountains.

They open up purse strings. They bring forward legislation that actually has a shot at making life better for a lot of people.

Speaker, I was here in 2007 when my colleague Cheri DiNovo led the fight for a $10-an-hour minimum wage. It was something like seven bucks an hour at that point. I was out in York South–Weston campaigning with our candidate, Paul Ferreira, who was running on a platform of a $10-an-hour minimum wage. The member for Parkdale–High Park drove this issue in the media with really powerful speeches, really strong statements, notwithstanding all the pressure against her. We won York South–Weston because of the desire people have for a wage that was somewhat closer to being a living wage. They needed an increase. They needed to move to $10 an hour in 2007-08.

And it was astounding, Speaker—just as I’ve watched the transformation on the government benches this year as the polling numbers have come in—to watch in 2007 as Greg Sorbara and then-Premier Dalton McGuinty read the tea leaves, read the ballot numbers and recognized they were in deep trouble. They moved then to support a $10-an-hour minimum wage.

If it weren’t for elections, the Liberals would never move forward on the minimum wage, and so I say, all praise and honour to regular elections, because they’re the only things that advance the quality of our lives.

I also want to thank $15 and Fairness and the trade union movement, the labour movement in this province for the work that they’ve done to make this issue visible, make it powerful and put it on the table here in this Legislature. If they hadn’t done this work, if they hadn’t moved people, if they hadn’t done the organizing, then we’d be getting something far less, so to them a lot of credit is due. Clearly, however, an awful lot more work needs to be done to improve this bill.

I’ll just tell you, Speaker, I was down at a rally of workers down at the Toronto Marriott hotel at the SkyDome—the Rogers Centre, or whatever they call it today. These were people who worked in the rooms. They were the cleaners. They had just recently been certified as a union. Their employer is trying to decertify them; their employer is stonewalling them at the bargaining table.

The people I was with, the organizers from Unite Here Local 75, just to give me a sense of the kind of work people were dealing with, asked people in that crowd—there were about 60 people—to put up their hands if they had been injured at work. About three quarters of them put their hands up. I was astounded. They do very heavy lifting. They have a lot of back injuries, and a lot of neck and shoulder injuries. He asked them, “How many people deal with pain every day on the job?” It was half the people there.

These are people who go in to clean up rooms and supposedly are being paid on an hourly basis, but if in fact they’re not able to get through all the rooms they’re supposed to in their shift, they have to stay until all the rooms are done.

People may be familiar with the hotel; I’m certain you’re familiar with the SkyDome. There are hotel rooms that overlook the field, and there are people who rent those rooms to have parties and then after the parties, the cleaners have to go in and quite literally scrape pizza off the windows. They have to scrape food off walls. They have to deal with beer and wine spills all over. And they are not told, “Ah, this room is in particularly bad shape. We’ll give you extra hours.” No, they have the same amount of time allowed to them. They have to get it done, and if they can’t get it done, they stay later to cover their work. They need union protection. They need a decent first contract.

Speaker, this legislation does some useful things. Again, it’s an election year, and I thank God for democracy. But I want to say, Speaker, that there are a number of flaws in this bill that should have been addressed by the government.

There is card-check certification here for a limited number of areas, and, frankly, Speaker, there needs to be card-check certification for unions in every sphere. I’ve been involved in union organizing. I know what happens when you’re involved in an organizing campaign: The employer does everything they can to intimidate people, to frighten people, to cajole people, to do whatever is possible to get them to back off. That’s why card-check certification, without having to put people through the long process of a vote where an employer gets the opportunity to beat up on that workforce, is critical.

If you’re going to have decent work in this province, if you’re going to have decent pay, people have to be able to organize. It’s their right. We need to make sure that they’re protected against unfair pressure from employers to get them to back off. They all need card-check certification.

We need—and this is something we’ve asked for—sectoral bargaining in every sector. I have constituents who are security guards. They make at around the minimum wage. What you need to know is that in this sector, because there’s constantly a process of putting out requests for proposals and bidding on getting security guard contracts, companies that give a pay increase, no matter how small, are often just wiped out in the next round of bidding, and the workers’ wages are either dropped down to a new level or those workers are all gone.

There needs to be sectoral bargaining for security guards, just as there is in Quebec, where security guards are relatively well paid—not extremely well paid but, compared to what they’re paid in Ontario, much better—because they have sectoral bargaining and they have successor rights. They don’t have to worry about the company that they’re working for being wiped out in the next round of bidding for a contract. If that company has performed badly, was not managed well or incurred unnecessary costs, it isn’t the workers who pay for it. That is the value of sectoral bargaining.

It evens out the playing field between employers and employees. We need to have that. It should have been in this bill.

There’s no explicit protection for employees from reprisals during the bargain-unit-organizing campaign period. Speaker, there needs to be. I just outlined the kinds of things that go on in workplaces when there isn’t protection. It needs to be there. Societies that have high levels of union membership are ones that tend to be much more prosperous. Contrary to what is argued by the Conservatives, having high incomes overall in a society gives an economy a real boost.

When people have real purchasing power, they go into stores and they buy goods; they don’t just sock it away to make it an investment somewhere else further down the road. You create effective demand, and you create an economy that is far more stable and far more prosperous.

Another thing that’s missing: There’s no meaningful definition of “employer” or a mechanism to enforce that employees aren’t misclassified as independent contractors. This trick to deprive people of their workplace rights is far too common, and it needs to be explicitly set aside, outlawed, so that no employer can dodge paying people decently and giving them the benefits and rights that they deserve.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Mr. Mike Colle: Like you, Mr. Speaker, we attended some of those hearings across the province, and we heard from workers and business people on this proposed legislation. One of the things that came to mind here is that we sometimes forget that the majority of people who work part-time or temporary, or work below the minimum wage or at the minimum wage, are people who actually work for big business in the service industry and in all kinds of food, accommodation. They work for big business. Sure, there are small businesses that hire part-time or temporary workers, but the vast majority work for big business.

Therefore, in this bill, there’s an attempt to try to ensure that there is an appreciation by employers that their workers, who work very hard, need supports and need some recognition that their temporary or part-time work should have some protections.

The other thing in this bill—I know the member from Toronto–Danforth talked about card-based certification. The previous Conservative government basically eliminated card-based certification completely. In the past, we’ve brought it in for construction workers, and that’s worked very well because of the mobility of construction workers. Now, in this bill, we’re expanding it to temporary help agencies—where people are always on the move—health care workers and people in the building maintenance trades. That is a big step forward.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Wellington–Halton Hills.

Mr. Ted Arnott: I’m pleased to have this couple of minutes to respond to the member for Toronto–Danforth—I should say the honourable gentleman from Toronto–Danforth, because he always demonstrates civility in this House, and that is something that needs to be acknowledged, too.

I would have to agree with him that the minimum wage needs to be a living wage, but I disagree with some of his conclusions. I think that we have to look at the minimum wage in terms of doing an economic analysis, which our party has called for consistently during the course of this debate. Also, we need to look at competing jurisdictions. If we raise the minimum wage without regard to how many jobs are going to be lost, how many hours are going to be reduced for some of our lower-income workers, we’re doing a disservice to them and we might even be hurting some of the people who we’re trying to help.

When we look at the minimum wage, I think we need to listen to our small business people as well—not just employers, but also employees. Last night, I had the opportunity to attend the Halton Hills Chamber of Commerce Business Achievement Awards in the Georgetown area, and I was very, very excited to participate in this celebration of business achievement and excellence. It’s also Small Business Week, Mr. Speaker, as we know, and I think that it’s important to put their views on the record in the context of this debate.

I have spoken to many small businesses in our community of Wellington–Halton Hills that are expressing very serious concerns. Of course, as we know, the Ontario Chamber of Commerce did an economic analysis which demonstrated that up to 185,000 jobs might be at risk as a result of this massive increase in the minimum wage in such a short period of time. I think that has to be considered as well.

I’ve spoken to individual small businesses in my riding. I think of Jackie Fraser at Fraberts Fresh Foods in Fergus. She has been on the record expressing concern about how this is going to impact her business. There have been a number of articles in the media about Jackie. I would encourage the government members to do a quick Google search and see what Jackie has been saying on this, because there are many small businesses that are very, very concerned, and we don’t want to be hurting the people that the government claims to be helping.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Algoma–Manitoulin.

Mr. Michael Mantha: I want to thank the member from Toronto–Danforth for bringing his comments this morning. It wasn’t that long ago; I remember actually being a union representative, knocking on doors, engaging with the membership and talking about the issues that happen at work through health and safety, proper wages, the environment at work and just making sure that benefits were there for their family.

I also remember the intimidations that were happening while I was on those trails, while I was knocking on those doors. Having employers follow you around; having that day of the vote; having to walk right in front of your employer in order to get this done: Those are the realities of what was happening. Having that ultimate say with regard to, “I hold your paycheque, buddy, and you will”—it has a definite impact with regard to the environment in a work area.

I want to give him credit for all the comments that he’s brought forward and that a lot of my colleagues brought forward as to the need for card-check certification.

He talked about those workers over at the SkyDome. A lot of those workers, yes, absolutely scrape off that paint, wash that beer off the wall, replace the chandeliers that are in there, repair—they just do extensive work.

But here’s another classification of individuals who deserve unions, as well: the PSWs that do home care. Those individuals, when they go into a home, care for our most loved ones. They are stringently put under very tight timelines: “You are going into this house. You are going to get 0.5 to get into the house and do the sweeping. You are going to get 0.25 to get that individual, that grandmother or that grandfather, into the bath and out. You are going to get five minutes in order to go downstairs and get the laundry done. And you know what? If you’re not done, you’ve got to leave.”

Well, these individuals have a conscience. They’re in this field, they are there providing that home care, because they love, and they actually apply the skills they have. They, too, deserve a union.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Questions and comments?

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: I’ve been listening to this debate with much interest from all parties. A lot of conversations have been had here about minimum wage. I think some facts are important to know. I’ve heard this argument about how this is not the right time to raise the minimum wage far too many times.

Back in 2004, when we were raising the minimum wage after it was frozen by the previous Conservative government for four years, from $6.85 to $10.25 over a period of time, we heard the same arguments at the time: “This is too fast. This is too soon. It’s going to hurt our economy. People are going to lose jobs.” None of that transpired. In fact, people earned a slightly more decent wage than they were before.

It was the same thing when, back in 2011, I was the Minister of Labour. We were bringing legislation to increase it from $10.25 to $11 an hour. We felt that we needed to do a catch-up. We felt that it was important that we at least get to $11 and index it to the cost of living, even though the economy was struggling. I remember exactly the same arguments being heard by the Conservatives at the same time.

Now, the NDP like to think somehow they were advocating for $15 at that time. They were not. In fact, when we came up with our policy around minimum wage, there was silence on the part of the NDP. I know some of the NDP members may recognize it; I think the member from Danforth did recognize that fact. The most the NDP came up with at that time was, “Oh, we’ll do $12 an hour.” There was no conversation about $15 an hour by the NDP at that time.

Now, here we are hearing the same argument from the Conservatives. “It’s too fast, it’s too soon. It’s going to hurt the economy.” You’ve said it before. You’ve said it, and look, our economy is growing and we’re making sure that people are living on a decent wage.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): The member from Toronto–Danforth: two minutes.

Mr. Peter Tabuns: I’d like to thank the members from Eglinton–Lawrence, Wellington–Halton Hills and Algoma–Manitoulin and the Attorney General for commenting on my remarks.

You can’t have a society work well unless the majority of that society lives decently. We can look at the polarization in the United States, where there’s no doubt there’s growing poverty in the midst of extraordinary wealth, but we also see here in Canada, as well, that the top 1% have made most of the gains that have come in this economy in the last 10 or 20 years. Right now, the top 20% of income earners earn half the income in Canada and the bottom 80% earn the other half. Some 70% of the wealth in this country is with the top 20%, and 30% of the wealth is with the bottom 80%.

There’s a very sharp divide. So when you’re talking about labour legislation, when you’re talking about workplace legislation, you’re talking about starting, even in a small way, to redress that imbalance. If you want a safe society, a comfortable society, a stable society, you need to end that imbalance.

A friend of mine was meeting recently with some people from Brazil. These people lived what by Canadian standards would be a middle-class lifestyle. For them, walking down the streets was incredibly dangerous, because there are large numbers of people who are completely desperate, so the level of crime there is extraordinarily high because so many people have nothing.

If we want safety, decency, a sense of dignity, then we have to have labour laws and legislation that allow people to live decent lives. I’m going to support this legislation, but I want it to be better.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): Further debate?

Hon. Michael Chan: I think we want everyone to benefit fairly from Ontario’s growing economy. While business is expanding and creating jobs, not everyone is feeling it. We need to address the concerns of those who worry about falling behind, even as they work so hard to get ahead. I truly believe that is our role to play.

Because we balanced the books, we have the ability to do more. That means free tuition, expanded child care, free prescription drugs for everyone under 25 and a basic income pilot, as well as fair hydro and fair housing plans.

Speaker, building on these initiatives, we are moving forward with our plan for fair workplaces and better jobs. With these changes, every worker in Ontario will be treated fairly, paid a living wage and have the opportunity to move ahead. Whether it’s child care or health care, rent control or workplace fairness, the motivation behind each of them is the same: They will help build an Ontario where greater opportunity is available for everyone and greater security is achievable for everyone.

We know where the opposition stands on this issue. The PCs have said time and time again they do not support raising the minimum wage.

This is a plan we are proud of. Now the third party has decided to join the conversation. They agree we need to support Ontarians with these changes; they would like to see us go even further.

When the Fair Workplaces, Better Jobs Act was tabled, we knew we needed to take it to Ontarians for their input. This bill was sent to committee after first reading. The committee then made amendments to the bill that reflected what committee members heard from Ontarians during the hearings held in 10 cities over the summer. When the bill returned to the House, we allowed debate to continue when we reached 6.5 hours of debate on this bill so that more members would have an opportunity to present their will on the bill.

Speaker, as you know, this bill has seen more than nine and a half hours of debate, and we have had many of our members of this Legislature speak to the bill. There has been considerable debate on this bill: nine and a half hours. It’s time that the bill is put to a vote for second reading and sent back to committee, where members can continue the work they started this summer. As a result, Speaker, I move that this question be now put.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): I’m satisfied there has been sufficient debate to allow this question to be put to the House.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? I heard a no.

All those in favour of the motion that the question be now put, say “aye.”

All those opposed to the motion that the question be now put, please say “nay.”

I believe the ayes have it.

This will be voted on after question period.

Vote deferred.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Paul Miller): And now it’s 10 after 10. I will recess this House until 10:30 this morning.

The House recessed from 1009 to 1030.

Introduction of Visitors

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Colleagues, today we will be doing a tribute to a former member, so I would like to introduce in the gallery today former members who have come to associate themselves with this tribute. In the gallery are: Mr. David Warner, MPP for Scarborough–Ellesmere during the 30th, 31st, 33rd and 35th Parliaments and Speaker during the 35th Parliament; Phil Gillies, MPP for Brantford during the 32nd and 33rd Parliaments; Steve Gilchrist, MPP for Scarborough East during the 36th and 37th Parliaments; and former Premier Mike Harris, who has not yet arrived.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Premier. Fault of the Speaker.

Also, former tied dean of the House, Norm Sterling from Carleton–Grenville in the 31st, 32nd and 33rd, Carleton in the 34th, 35th and 36th, Lanark–Carleton in the 37th and 38th and Carleton–Mississippi Mills in the 39th Parliament.

Welcome to our former members. We’re glad you’re with us.

Applause.

Mr. Sam Oosterhoff: It’s an honour to be able to stand today and welcome to the Legislature Councillor Dave Kadwell from Grimsby along with his spouse Terry Kadwell. Welcome to the Legislature today.

Mr. Taras Natyshak: I’d like to welcome Gord Reynolds, who is the COO of Spark Power Corp., and Carolyn Pittman, here to speak about Pelee Island’s sustainable energy future.

Hon. Reza Moridi: It’s a great pleasure to welcome page Hannah Chen’s grandmother, Amy Lin, and brother Michael Chen, visiting the House today. Please join me in welcoming them.

Mr. Michael Harris: I’d like to welcome Elliott Silverstein, manager of government relations for CAA, and Tracy Nickleford and Matthew Turack, here for CAA lobby day.

Mr. Percy Hatfield: Yes, the CAA is here. They’ll hold a reception in room 228 at noon. Everyone is invited. I’d like to welcome the director of government and community relations, Teresa Di Felice, as well as the chief operating officer, Carlos Coutinho, and board member Tony Salerno. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I’m delighted to welcome Scott Courtice and Steve Goodine to the members’ gallery today. They are with the London InterCommunity Health Centre. Steve is the chair of the board and Scott is the ED. They are amazing people doing fantastic work and really important members of our community.

Mrs. Gila Martow: I’m pleased to welcome Paul Jacuzzi, CAA board member; Michael Shore, manager, CAA north and east Ontario; and, of course, my constituent, Elliott Silverstein, manager of government relations. I hope to see everybody at the luncheon on the second floor.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: It’s my pleasure to introduce Dana Janzen from the TEDx organization. Welcome to Queen’s Park, Dana.

Hon. Eleanor McMahon: It’s Canadian Automobile Association day, Speaker. There have been a few introductions already and I would like to add to them: Cindy Hillaby, vice-president; Danica Logan, government relations specialist; Ghazal Momen, government relations specialist; and, of course, our dear friend, Elliott Silverstein, is here today. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

M me France Gélinas: We have a big delegation coming from the Association of Ontario Health Centres, starting with Debbie St John-de Wit. She is the executive director of Seaway Valley Community Health Centre in Cornwall. We have Mark Peacock, the chair of the board at Port Hope Northumberland Community Health Centre, and Christanne Lewis, the director of the specialized programs at Port Hope; Edesiri Udoh, the health promoter with Bramalea Community Health Centre in Brampton; Mike Bell, the CEO of Kingston Community Health Centres; and Juanita Lawson, CEO of NorWest Community Health Centres in Thunder Bay.

The two members from London were already introduced.

Judith Wiley, the executive director of Central Community Health Centre in St. Thomas, Malcolm Wood, a board member from Central CHC in St. Thomas and Paul Jenkins, a member of the board at Central CHC in St. Thomas; Lori-Ann Green-Walker, director of clinical services at Women’s Health in Women’s Hands here in Toronto; Emily Rashotte, director of primary care at Gateway CHC in Tweed; and Adrianna Tetley, executive director of the Association of Ontario Health Centres, Kate Mulligan, director of policy and communication at AOHC, and Jacquie Maund, policy and government relations lead at the Association of Ontario Health Centres. They are making their way here. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Ms. Sophie Kiwala: I would like to extend a warm welcome to Mike Bell, the new CEO from Kingston Community Health Centres.

Mr. Jeff Yurek: A warm introduction and welcome to Judith Wiley, CEO of Central Community Health Centre, and my former dentist, Malcolm Wood, as a board member of the Central Community Health Centre.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Niagara Falls.

Mr. Wayne Gates: Thank you Mr. Speaker. You just made my day.

I have representatives from CAA Niagara: Peter Van Hezewyk, president of CAA Niagara—

Interjection.

Mr. Wayne Gates: Yes, I got that—Michael Goodale, board member of CAA Niagara, and Bill Willard, vice-president of CAA Niagara. And a guy that I grew up with, a pleasant surprise that he’s here: Mr. Dave Kadwell and his beautiful wife Terry.

Mrs. Cristina Martins: On behalf of my colleague, Arthur Potts, MPP for Beaches–East York, I want to acknowledge the page captain for today, Colin Angell from Beaches–East York, and welcome his father Richard Angell and grandparents, Sigrid and Ralph Angell, who will be joining us today in the member’s gallery.

Ms. Jennifer K. French: I am pleased to introduce Chris Cowley, the president of the Ontario Teachers’ Federation, who is joining us here today. Welcome to Queen’s Park.

Mr. Lou Rinaldi: It gives me great pleasure to welcome, from Port Hope Northumberland Community Health Centre, Mark Peacock, the chair of the board, and Christanne Lewis, director of specialized service. The best community health centre in the province, Speaker.

Hon. Eric Hoskins: Speaker, I would like to welcome a delegation from the Association of Ontario Health Centres who are here marking community health and well-being week in Ontario. The delegation includes executive directors, board members and, as we have heard, staff from community health centres across the province, from Thunder Bay to Cornwall to St. Thomas and more. They all do an excellent job providing primary health care and promoting community health and well-being, so I am pleased to welcome them today to Queen’s Park.

M me Nathalie Des Rosiers: I’m very happy to recognize in the gallery Shireen Salti, who is a graduate of the master’s program in law and public policy at York. She is my first OLIP intern. I’m very happy to have her here.

Mr. Yvan Baker: I want to introduce three people who I met with this morning from CAA: Ethel Taylor, who is a board member and vice-chair; Matthew Turack, who is the division president for insurance at CAA; and Raymond Chan, who is a government relations specialist with CAA. Thank you very much and welcome to Queen’s Park.

Hon. Reza Moridi: It’s my pleasure, Mr. Speaker, to welcome my colleague Minnie Wang from my constituency office, and I want to thank her for the excellent work she does in helping and serving the people of Richmond Hill. Thank you.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further introductions?

I have a further introduction. In the Speaker’s gallery is a staff member from my constituency office in Brant, Jennifer Yin-Johnson, and Stevelle Steer from my Queen’s Park office. Welcome, and thank you for being here.

Gord Downie

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I recognize the member from Kingston and the Islands on a point of order.

Ms. Sophie Kiwala: I believe you will find that we have unanimous consent to observe a moment of silence before question period as a sign of this House’s condolence for the sudden passing of Gord Downie.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Kingston and the Islands is seeking unanimous consent for a moment of silence in tribute to Gord Downie. Do we agree? Agreed.

I would ask everyone in the House to please rise for a moment of silence for a great Canadian, Gord Downie.

The House observed a moment’s silence.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Pray be seated.

W. Donald Cousens

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Government House leader.

Hon. Yasir Naqvi: Good morning, Speaker. I believe you will find that we have unanimous consent to recognize the former member of provincial Parliament for Markham, Mr. Donald Cousens, with a representative from each caucus speaking for up to five minutes.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The government House leader is seeking unanimous consent to pay tribute. Do we agree? Agreed.

Before we do that, would members please join me in welcoming the family and friends of the late W. Donald Cousens, MPP for York Centre during the 32nd and 33rd Parliaments and MPP for Markham during the 34th and 35th Parliaments, who are seated in the Speaker’s gallery: daughter Mary Cousens and her husband Kevin Steinberg; son Paul Cousens and his wife Lesley Cousens; grandchildren Charlotte and Drew Cousens; as well as Suse Steinberg. Welcome and thank you for being here.

Applause.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Kitchener–Waterloo.

Ms. Catherine Fife: Delivering a tribute about someone you’ve never met can be challenging. Often the historical record can be spotty or provide you with the kind of revelations about a person’s character that make it uncomfortable or, quite frankly, really difficult to speak glowingly about them.

Then there are times when the research of the tribute is revealing and the account of the person’s life and their contributions to our province make you wish that indeed you had had the opportunity to spend some time with them, that you had a chance to get to know them and learn from them. Today is one of those times, and Donald Cousens is one of those people.

Looking back at his life, it becomes clear that Donald was one of those incredible individuals destined for a life of public service. Military service? Check; he was an officer in the Canadian Forces. An ordained minister with the Presbyterian Church? Check, plus school board trustee and board chair, a 13-year career as a member of provincial Parliament and 12 years as the mayor of Markham.

When Don left us, a Markham MP described him as “a tremendous leader ... a model of grace and generosity.” He was a force for helping make and shape Markham’s growth and development, an impact that is felt to this day.

He was part of a team that paved the way for the Markham Stouffville Hospital, which has become a centre of excellence in the greater Toronto area. He advocated for the expansion of GO Transit service in York region. He played a role in the development of the Rouge Park and served on the first board of directors for the Rouge Park Alliance. He fought tirelessly against the proposed garbage dumps that were slated for highly sensitive areas of the Rouge River watershed.

Markham embraced Don, just as much as he loved his community. He was one of the few Tories who survived the 1987 election when the PC caucus was reduced to just 16 of 130 seats. People of all stripes remember him as Markham’s champion, not only because of his electoral success and the opportunities it gave him to help the city grow but for the work he did on his own time.

In addition to his day jobs, Don found other ways to contribute to the business of community and capacity building. In fact, Don gave so much that it seemed he had 30 hours in a day while the rest of us had to make do with 24. During his tenure as an elected representative, he made time to be active with charitable initiatives that were close to his heart. Don believed that his work wasn’t about legacy or infrastructure, but it was about people.

In addition to his service as a board member and, later, chair of World Vision, the boards of Yad Vashem, the Markham YMCA, the Japanese cultural centre, the York region mental health association and the Canadian Mental Health Initiative are among the many organizations that benefited from his contributions.

But perhaps the most telling thing about Don’s career wasn’t the offices he held or the elections that he won—and there were a lot of those—but his leadership style. As I said earlier, although I never had the privilege of meeting Don, and despite the titles he owned, it always seemed to be that his convictions spoke the loudest. One of his World Vision colleagues summed it up like this: “With Don, always that sense of quiet authority, dignity, incredible character that just attracts people to him.”

Even in death, his final act was to contribute to his community, calling for donations to the Markham Stouffville Hospital.

Today we are joined by members of Don’s family, in the Speaker’s gallery. As elected officials and dedicated volunteers, we’re acutely aware of the sacrifices that our loved ones make to allow us to heed our calling here in this place. We thank you for sharing him with us.

For the people of Markham and for the people of Ontario, thank you, Donald Cousens, for your brand of leadership. Markham and Ontario are better places because you served.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further tributes?

Hon. Helena Jaczek: I’m truly honoured to pay tribute to Don Cousens, member of provincial Parliament from 1981 until 1994, first for York Centre and then for Markham.

I, like so many others, was fortunate enough to know Don and to consider him a friend—someone with whom you could have a real conversation, who always took the time to listen, and someone on whose advice and support you could rely.

Born in Vankleek Hill in eastern Ontario, Don grew up in Brockville, the son of a Presbyterian minister, in whose footsteps he followed, getting his undergraduate degree from Queen’s and his master’s in divinity from Knox College at the University of Toronto. After a stint as a minister in Penetanguishene, he switched gears and worked in the high-tech industry, in sales and marketing.

After marrying his beloved wife, Aline, a physiotherapist, the family settled in Markham. Don followed his passion for public education and was elected to the York county board of education in 1972, where he remained as a trustee until becoming chair of the York Region District School Board in 1978.

In 1981, Don was elected to this House. After being re-elected in 1985, he served briefly in Premier Frank Miller’s minority government as Minister of Correctional Services. Of course, even though his tenure was brief, Don threw himself into his job, visiting prisons all over the province, including in his hometown of Brockville.

Re-elected in 1987 and 1990, he had the unusual experience of serving during the majority governments of all three parties and the minorities of two. He was Deputy Speaker and was most proud of the private member’s bill he introduced to control smoking in Ontario.

I believe his respect for this Legislature was evidenced by his children, Mary and Paul, both becoming pages in this place.

When I asked the dean of the House, the member for St. Catharines, about his memory of Don in this place, he said immediately, “He was one of the good guys.” As we all know, the member always speaks his mind, and so this is high praise indeed.

After deciding not to run again provincially, Don was elected mayor of Markham in 1994. Re-elected three more times, he established Markham as a high-tech business hub. The first race relations committee was formed, and Markham won the Prince of Wales Prize for exemplary commitment to the preservation of built heritage within its boundaries. Don likened this to winning the Stanley Cup.

Following up on his anti-smoking legislation, Don and I, in my capacity as medical officer of health, worked together on a no-smoking bylaw for York region. It took us six years to get the required triple majority. I got discouraged many times, but Don always told me we would win in the end, and we did, in October 2000, just before that year’s municipal election.

Don served on innumerable community organizations, including as chair of World Vision Canada, but his commitment to public education was always paramount. He spearheaded the Character Matters initiative that was adopted by the York Region District School Board and that remains in place today. A new public elementary school in my riding was named after him, and he told his family it was the greatest honour he could have hoped to receive.

Needing another kidney transplant in 2006, Don decided to retire. Throughout the health challenges he faced in his later years, Don impressed everyone with his fortitude. Aline ensured they maintained a healthy lifestyle. They travelled and continued to attend events supporting charities they favoured.

There was always something interesting to talk about with Don. After my first election as an MPP in 2007, Don phoned me at home to give me some advice. First, not surprisingly, was to always look after your constituents. Next was that legislative committees were enjoyable and useful and where the real work was done. And then finally, after a short pause, he said, “You’re a rather impatient person, so you’ll probably find the debates in the House tedious, but hang in there.” Of course, he was right. This was so typical of Don: very candid in his assessment but wanting to provide guidance and support.

So to Mary, Kevin and Suse, and to Paul, Lesley, Charlotte and Drew, and to the extended family and friends, very sincere condolences on the loss of Don, but rest assured that his legacy lives on in all the work he did in this House and in Markham to benefit the people of Ontario.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Further tribute.

Mrs. Julia Munro: It is my honour and privilege to rise today to pay tribute to the late Donald Cousens, former MPP from Markham. A father, a grandfather, a local advocate from Markham, a mayor, a cabinet minister, a Presbyterian minister: to say that this man left an impact is an understatement.

I wanted to start by acknowledging that we are joined today in the Speaker’s gallery by Don’s daughter, Mary, her husband, Kevin, and their daughter, Suse; and by Don’s son, Paul, his wife, Lesley, and their children, Charlotte and Drew.

I first met Don in 1990, when I was a member of my local PC riding association. At the time, Bob Rae was Premier and Don was the environment critic. Don recognized that our Durham–York riding association was full of novices, but novices who were keen and committed to the PC vision for a better Ontario. He and his staff gave us the advice and guidance we needed to organize our community and stand up against the proposed mega-dump in Georgina.

Some of you may know that the mega-dump was actually one of the main issues that drew me into local politics. I saw something that my community and I knew was not in our best interests and I was motivated to do something about it. I will always be grateful for Don’s advice and guidance and look back with fondness at the care he took for our little team. I always remember how approachable Don was and how open he was to our questions in a pursuit for a better Georgina. Working in tandem with this local issue, I was also motivated to run by our new leader, Mike Harris. I was attracted to his ideas and his vision for a more prosperous Ontario.

It is always important to know the motivation of a politician in seeking office. It’s in those moments that they are not politicians; they are everyday citizens motivated by someone or something. Donald Cousens was motivated by Markham, first as a school board trustee, then an MPP, a cabinet minister, and then as mayor of Markham. He was motivated by his deep desire to serve Markham and to help it prosper. When Don stepped up to the plate to serve Markham as their MPP, he saw gridlock and long commuter lines. I suppose some things never change.

Prior to elected office, Don was a Presbyterian minister in Penetanguishene, an officer in the Canadian Forces and an executive at Honeywell. In conversation with his son, Paul, he mentioned that when he was growing up in Markham, his father celebrated the fact that his school had students who together could speak 47 different languages. Markham, and more generally York region, was diverse then and continues a culture of diversity today.

I can only imagine how special it must have been for Don to serve as an MPP during each of his children’s time as legislative pages here at Queen’s Park. To be able to open your child’s eyes to the world around them and to engage them in the process in such a meaningful way is a unique opportunity.

Even after he left the political arena, he continued to advocate for Markham and remained involved in the local business community. Don truly was a man motivated by community. He served in opposition more than he did in government—I know the feeling—and as a result was often in a position to seek consensus rather than simply oppose. As mayor of Markham, he had an opportunity to take those skills to a different environment. His story is a testament to the Canadian dream, a dream where if you work hard, opportunity will follow.

Born into humble beginnings in eastern Ontario, Don went on to raise a loving family and serve his community in elected office. His son remarked that he greatly enjoyed playing the role of “elder statesman” and, of course, time with family. He loved his children and his grandchildren dearly. Family was everything.

Today, he is commemorated in Markham with both a road and a school named for him. More than that, Don is remembered as a “good guy,” one of the good guys—somebody who was in politics for all the right reasons and somebody who always tried to do the right thing. I think that I can speak for every member of this House when I say we all aspire to leave behind such a legacy.

Applause.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I would like to thank all the members for their very kind and heartfelt comments. I thank the former members for being here; it tells a story.

To the family: Our deepest sympathies, and also, on behalf of the Legislature and all the members, we will ensure that you receive a copy of the DVD and a Hansard of the tributes paid today to Don Cousens. Thank you for the gift of Don.

Oral Questions

Government accounting practices

Mr. Patrick Brown: My question is for the Premier, but first of all, I just want to say, on behalf of the Ontario PC caucus, our deepest condolences on the loss of Gord Downie to his family, his friends and his fans. He will be missed in Ontario and in Canada.

Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General’s report was a scathing indictment of Liberal political corruption and their contempt for the people of Ontario. She said the scheme—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I’m going to ask you to withdraw.

Mr. Patrick Brown: Withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Carry on.

Mr. Patrick Brown: She said the scheme was “needlessly complex,” that the government is “improperly” accounting for billions of dollars and that Ontario will be paying $4 billion more than necessary. This is an egregious abuse of power and someone must be held accountable.

Mr. Speaker, who will this Premier hold responsible? Which minister is she going to hold responsible?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I’m happy to answer this question, but I also want to extend my deepest condolences to the family, the friends and all of the fans of Gord Downie across this country. Gord lived every single day of his life with grace and resilience. His music was a quintessential part of being Canadian. I know that there are millions—literally millions—of Canadians who are in mourning today. I want to say that he will be greatly missed by all of us.

Mr. Speaker, families in this province, in Ontario, asked for real and immediate relief on their electricity bills—because there had been billions of dollars of investment in a degraded electricity system. In 2003, the electricity system had been neglected. It had to be built up. We made those investments and our fair hydro plan—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke—too late of a catch—come to order.

Supplementary.

Mr. Patrick Brown: Again to the Premier: The question was, who will the Premier hold responsible? The Auditor General’s report is very clear. We’re going to waste $4 billion because of the method this government chose—$4 billion that families are going to have to bear the cost of because of the calculations that this government made for their own re-election.

So my question, once again: Given that we’re going to see $4 billion wasted and given the Auditor General saying the government is making up their own rules, which minister is the Premier going to hold responsible? Who is she going to fire?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Be seated, please. Thank you. Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Well, again, Mr. Speaker, I’ll just finish what I was saying, which is that the fair hydro plan is delivering that relief, an average 25% rate cut to residential ratepayers. I guarantee that electricity rates will not rise—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Renfrew, second time.

Finish, please.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Electricity rates will not rise beyond the rate of inflation for four years. We’ve been clear from the start that our plan does a smoothing out of the costs over a period of time and that there is a cost associated with that. We’ve been very clear about that. But we’ve also been clear that the fair hydro plan—

Interjections.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: The cost of borrowing in order to do that smoothing was within the rate base, not the tax base, because that is the logical thing to do. That is what our plan does. It allows people to get that relief immediately; it smooths out those costs and keeps the cost within the rate base.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary?

Mr. Patrick Brown: Back to the Premier: One newspaper read, “Hiding billions of dollars the Ontario government is borrowing to lower electricity bills for a few years will cost hydro users an extra $4 billion....” This is what it’s about; it’s about an additional $4 billion that families are going to have to pay. The newspaper

article continued, “The government, citizens, auditors and giant institutions that lend the province money are pretty much operating in a post-truth universe, where what the Liberals say is going on with Ontario’s finances has begun to drift from any previously understood shared reality.”

It’s the Liberals’ world, and we’re just living in it—a world where they can spend $4 billion for an unfair hydro plan that is nothing more than a self-interested election ploy.

Again to the Premier: Nowhere else in Canada would making up your own rules be acceptable. Nowhere else in Canada would blowing $4 billion be acceptable. So—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Be seated, please. To the member: When I stand, you sit.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: I know that families in this province, as the Premier said, really asked for real and immediate relief on their electricity bills, and that’s what we delivered. We made a policy choice, a policy choice to ensure that we continue to have a clean, reliable and affordable electricity system for the ratepayers of today and the ratepayers of tomorrow. The fair hydro plan keeps the cost of borrowing within the rate base, not the tax base, because that’s the logical thing to do. Electricity financing should remain within the electricity system.

While the Auditor General is welcome to her opinion, our plan has been approved by her peers, some of Canada’s—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order.

The member from Renfrew–Nipissing–Pembroke is warned. I set the trap; you took the bait.

Minister?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Our plan has been approved by her peers at some of Canada’s top accounting firms, including Ernst and Young, KPMG and Deloitte. In the development of the fair hydro plan, we also consulted with numerous third-party advisers in the application of accounting standards. IESO’S management, IESO’S audit committee—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Leeds–Grenville, come to order.

You have a wrap-up sentence, please.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Even the office of the provincial controller supports this accounting treatment.

Government accounting practices

Mr. Patrick Brown: Again to the Premier: I can’t believe she can sit here and accept an attitude by the Minister of Energy that is so condescending to an officer of the Legislature. It’s shameful, Mr. Speaker. This is an independent officer of the Legislature, and frankly, the Auditor General knows a lot more about accounting rules than the Minister of Energy. Frankly, she knows a lot more about energy than the Minister of Energy.

The reality is this is all about politics. This is all about partisan self-interest. Mr. Speaker—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. Government House leader, come to order.

Question.

Mr. Patrick Brown: Mr. Speaker, this is about politics over people: $4 billion wasted, and they’re trying to spin their way out of this.

Again to the Premier: Given the fact you’ve got a minister who has been caught deliberately hiding the facts, the government is making up their own rules, you’ve wasted—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. Be seated, please.

The member will withdraw.

Mr. Patrick Brown: Withdraw. What am I withdrawing?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Order. Come to order. For the benefit of the members, he has a right to ask that question. Know your rules.

You said something unparliamentary, and I asked you to withdraw. Carry on.

Mr. Patrick Brown: My question for the Premier: You’ve got an instance where the government, according to the Auditor General, is making up their own accounting rules and $4 billion is being lost. Will the Premier do the right thing and fire her Minister of Energy?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: As the Leader of the Opposition knows, we adhere to Canadian public service accounting standards. We work closely with experts from KPMG, from Deloitte, from Ernst and Young, and the reality—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Nipissing, come to order.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Finance.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. The Minister of Finance, come to order. The member from Leeds–Grenville, come to order—second time. The Minister of Government and Consumer Services, come to order.

We’re now in warnings. By the way, I don’t need to give warnings to name people. Race to the top, please.

Premier.

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

As government, we have to solve problems in this province. We have to find practical solutions to problems.

The first problem that we had to solve was a degraded electricity system, a system that was not reliable and was not clean. The second problem that we had to solve was that the cost of investing in that system to make it clean and reliable was burdening residents and ratepayers across this province. That’s the problem that we had to solve. People needed rate relief, and we have delivered them rate relief.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. Be seated, please.

Supplementary?

Mr. Patrick Brown: Back to the Premier: This government created this mess. They’re about solving problems? They created the problem. This is their legacy. They’re the ones who put Ontario in this hydro mess. I know they’re trying to spin that this is not as bad as it appears, that this $4 billion is not as bad as it appears, but it is.

Mr. Speaker, just listen to what the Auditor General had to say. She said this scheme “would be unacceptable in the private sector, and we maintain that this is also unacceptable in the public sector.” She continued, “If the consolidated financial statements are so unreliable that an adverse opinion is warranted, terms like ‘balanced budget,’ ‘deficit,’ ‘asset’ and ‘net debt’ will be meaningless” under this government.

The reality is that they fudged the numbers. The numbers are an absolute—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): You have to withdraw.

Mr. Patrick Brown: I withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Carry on.

Mr. Patrick Brown: The numbers do not add up. The numbers are an absolute scam.

Mr. Speaker, how can the Premier defend her Minister of Finance? She’s here defending the Minister of Energy, but how can you stand in the House and defend the Minister of Finance when the numbers are not believed by anyone, including the Auditor General?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Be seated, please. The Minister of Education will come to order.

Premier?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: President of the Treasury Board.

Hon. Liz Sandals: Our government and our cabinet made a very simple decision. When we listened to the people of Ontario who asked to have their hydro bills lowered, we decided that social programs should go on the tax base and that electricity should go on the rate base.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Stormont, come to order.

Hon. Liz Sandals: Now the leader opposite is claiming that somehow we made up the accounting rules, but let me tell—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Sorry. Stop the clock. I even forgot my own rule. The member from Stormont–Dundas–South Glengarry is warned.

Carry on.

Hon. Liz Sandals: Rate-regulated accounting is the norm in the electricity sector. The OPG uses rate-regulated accounting. It has been approved by this and other auditors and continues to be. Hydro One uses rate-regulated accounting. It has—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Bruce–Grey–Owen Sound is warned.

Answer, please.

Hon. Liz Sandals: Hydro One’s rate-regulated accounting has been approved by this and all the other Auditors General. The old Ontario Power Authority—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mr. Patrick Brown: Back to the Premier: Page 8 of the report reads: “The government’s ongoing spending on private-sector external advisers had exceeded $2 million when we completed this special report.”

The President of the Treasury Board holds the purse strings, and yet she allowed the government to spend millions on lawyers and consultants to try to hide the true state of the books. Mr. Speaker, that’s not right. It’s unacceptable, it’s shameful and it’s disturbing.

Can the Premier tell us if the President of the Treasury Board still has her confidence when clearly—it’s not the opposition saying you made up the rules; it’s the Auditor General. How can the Premier still have confidence in her President of the Treasury Board? It’s shameful, Mr. Speaker.

Hon. Liz Sandals: Let’s continue to talk about the rules. The Ontario Power Authority, when it existed, used—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Nepean–Carleton is warned and inches away from being named.

Carry on.

Hon. Liz Sandals: The Ontario Power Authority, when it existed, used rate-regulated accounting, which was approved by this and other Auditors General. When OPA was consolidated into IESO, IESO decided it should use rate-regulated accounting for that part of the business which came from OPA. It received a clean audit from their auditors.

Now, let me tell you about other organizations like the IESO in North America. The equivalent organizations in Alberta, New York, Michigan, Texas, the Midwest, the eastern seaboard and New England have equivalents to the IESO, and they all use—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. Be seated, please.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The member from Simcoe–Grey is warned, the President of the Treasury Board is warned—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): I will do my job, thank you.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): You were just stretching? Yes, I’m sorry.

New question.

Hydro rates

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Speaker, I’m also going to take the opportunity, on behalf of New Democrats, to extend our condolences to the friends, family, bandmates and fans of the iconic Gord Downie. He and his band, the Tragically Hip, were inspirational artists of Canada, and they gave us a goodbye and a long tour that I think will always live in all of our hearts, and we regret his passing.

My question is to the Premier. Yesterday, the Auditor General told Ontarians exactly how bad the Premier’s $40-billion hydro borrowing scheme really is, so bad that the Premier is putting an extra $4 billion on people’s hydro bills just to cover it up. Once again, it’s the Premier putting herself and her party first and the people of Ontario last.

Why did the Premier sign off on a scheme that will cost Ontario families an extra $4 billion?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Let me just say again that what the fair hydro plan does is to put the people of Ontario first. The people of Ontario said to us that because of the costs that had been incurred, because we had to invest in an electricity system that was degraded over years, their electricity costs were going up too high and too fast. The leader of the third party was hearing those same voices, and she brought those voices to the Legislature just as I did.

And so we acted. We put in place a reduction, keeping that reduction on the rate base, understanding that people needed immediate relief. That’s exactly what we have done.

We also were very clear that the smoothing-out of costs over time would have a cost associated with it. We were very, very clear about that. But the motivation for us, in the first instance, was to respond to people who needed to see rate relief and needed to see it immediately.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Ontario families and businesses know that they’re paying far too much for hydro. They see it every month when they open their electricity bills. The Premier’s solution is to implement a plan that will actually end up costing Ontarians more in the long run, and then use public money to hide the damage that she is doing.

Why is the Premier putting her partisan ambitions ahead of the well-being of Ontario families yet again?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: It is important, again, to reiterate that families in this province and 500,000 small businesses and farms are seeing real relief and immediate relief thanks to the fair hydro plan, which was a policy decision that we made to ensure that we continue to have a clean, reliable and affordable system of electricity here in the province that is there for the ratepayers of today and the ratepayers of tomorrow.

The fair hydro plan keeps the cost of borrowing within the rate base, not the tax base, meaning electricity financing actually remains within the electricity system. It is important to see that we keep that cost within that rate base, because, for example, when Guelph Hydro goes out and builds a new transformer and they borrow money or when OPG builds a hydroelectric dam, all of that money stays in the rate base; it doesn’t come on to the tax base, which is the way it has always been done.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Where was this government’s concern for families, businesses and farms when they increased their hydro rates by 300% in a decade and then sold off their public electricity system? Where was their concern?

It’s like this Premier has never even opened a hydro bill in the last decade. She and her Liberal government are completely out of touch with what Ontario families are going through. The Premier is making Ontarians spend an extra $4 billion. No matter where they decide to put it in the books, it’s an extra $4 billion that they’re costing Ontarians, while families are struggling, just to hide the damage that her hydro scheme is going to do.

How can the Premier defend this massive breach of trust with the people of Ontario?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): The Minister of Economic Development and Growth is warned. The member from Ancaster–Dundas–Flamborough–Westdale is warned.

Carry on.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Again, a 25% reduction for families, small businesses and farms is immediate and real relief for the people of Ontario, something that we heard loud and clear and acted upon.

When it comes to what we’ve talked about today, it was a policy choice of this government to ensure that we continue to have a clean, reliable and affordable electricity system and that all of the borrowing done within the electricity system stays within that system. It does not make sense for Hydro One, for OPG or for any of our utilities that need to borrow money, that need to invest to keep that clean and reliable system going, that that money would then come onto the tax base. It doesn’t make sense. It has never worked that way.

What we’ve done is that we’ve kept with common practice, we’ve kept with accounting standards and we’re making sure that we’re keeping bills as low as possible with a clean system and a reliable system in this province.

Government accounting practices

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My next question is also for the Premier. The Auditor General also revealed that the government knew that the cost to hide their borrowing scheme was going to reach the astonishing additional amount of $4 billion.

When did the Premier know what the cost of this scheme was going to be, and when did she decide that $4 billion was an acceptable price tag?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: I know the President of the Treasury Board will want to comment, but, Mr. Speaker, we heard from Ontarians across this province. They said quite clearly that the costs that had been incurred because we had to rebuild the system—the system was degraded, it was unreliable and it was dirty. It’s clean. It is reliable. We made investments so that it would be. That’s a cost associated with making those improvements.

We made a decision that we would smooth out the cost of making those improvements over a longer period of time. We were very clear that there would be a cost associated with that but that this was an asset that would be in place not just for this generation but for the future. I’ve said quite clearly that we understand that. We understand that there was a cost associated with smoothing those costs. But in the immediate term, people needed to see relief and they are seeing that.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The Auditor General has been very clear about this: The government knew that this financial trick would cost the people of Ontario an extra $4 billion, and they did it anyway. The AG has the emails that prove it.

Was the Premier or any member of her office one of the officials who the auditor was referring to when she told Ontarians that the government knew the cost of this scheme?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: President of the Treasury Board.

Hon. Liz Sandals: I do need to note that the number that keeps getting thrown around here is an estimate that came from the FAO. It’s not a number that ever came to cabinet for decision-making. The fact that it’s out there is something the FAO put out there.

I want to go back to the issue around the accounting dispute, because clearly, with all due respect to the auditor, we are having an accounting dispute with the auditor. The auditor did a very peculiar thing yesterday. The auditor announced in advance how she would rule on the province’s books a year from now, based on a transaction that has not yet occurred.

The auditor says that the transaction is debt that should be treated like credit card debt, or like the stranded debt—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: After the gas plants cover-up, which two Liberal staffers are on trial for right now, and the Sudbury bribery scandal, which another two Liberal operatives are in court for right now, the Premier promised that she would finally be open and transparent with the people of this province.

Here is the Premier’s opportunity to be true to her word, finally. Will she release those emails that the Auditor General referenced immediately?

Hon. Liz Sandals: As I was saying, the auditor says that this is just like credit card debt, it’s just like the stranded debt, that we can’t turn that debt into an asset. On the other hand, we have three firms—EY, Deloitte, KPMG—and the provincial controller who all say no, we should be using regulated accounting. We clearly have a dispute.

But the interesting thing is the transaction hasn’t occurred. The market will decide who is right because if the market buys the asset, it’s a regulated asset. The market will be the referee when OPG completes that transaction.

Government accountability

Mr. Todd Smith: My question this morning is for the Minister of Energy. It may be a new Minister of Energy, but it’s the same old lack of transparency, accountability and openness from this minister.

Every single ministry and government agency was able to comply with the order to produce emails to the Auditor General in advance of her report, but your ministry was singled out for failure to comply.

How come every time this Liberal government makes a multi-billion-dollar energy decision—let’s be honest, to save its own political hide—it ends up in another email scandal?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: I know the member opposite heard the answer from us yesterday in estimates, so I’ll repeat that. When it comes to the release of emails, over 13,212 emails, to be exact, have been released by the Ministry of Energy to the Auditor General and we’re continuing to provide the Auditor General with more.

When the scope of the ask came from the Auditor General, there were 80 custodians that were identified with 40 actual words or phrases that needed to be captured. That produced over two million emails. All of those emails then had to be worked through; 145,000 of those two million emails were then identified. We have the Ministry of Energy going through all of those emails.

We continue to keep the Auditor General updated on the progress of this, but we’ve ensured that we’ve complied with that and have provided over 13,000 emails to date.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Todd Smith: With all due respect to the current minister, we’ve seen this movie before here in the Legislature, where Ministers of Energy said, “No, no, no, we’ve complied. We’ve turned over all the documents.” Then another couple of weeks would pass: “No, no, no, you now have all the documents.” Then a few more weeks would pass: “No, now you have all the documents.” It ended up in a billion-dollar gas plant scandal, and we’re seeing the same kind of ethical deficit coming from the Ministry of Energy again.

We’ve learned that the government retained a major Bay Street law firm with a retainer of $500,000—half a million dollars—to help them to decide which emails they were going to turn over. Does the minister not understand that the act that governs the Auditor General says that she’s supposed to get any and all documents that she asks for? We’re seeing a court case downtown right now on this issue.

Why is the government spending thousands of dollars on lawyers to tell them which documents to turn over?

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Be seated, please. Be seated, please. Thank you.

Minister?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Once again, I’ll have to explain the process of what we’re going through to the member opposite.

We’ve already complied. As the Auditor General said yesterday, we continue to work with her office to provide her with all of the emails. Over 13,000 emails have already been brought forward to the Auditor General’s office. We’re going to continue to work and provide her with all of the emails that she asked for. When you start with 80 custodians—80 people who actually would be involved with this—and 40 catchphrases or words, that created two million emails. We wanted to make sure she got access to this, so we brought that down and recognized that there were 145,000 of those emails. We have the Ministry of Energy working through this. Over 13,000 have been provided right now.

We’ll continue to work with the Auditor General and provide those emails.

Government accountability

Mr. Peter Tabuns: My question is to the Premier. The people of Ontario deserve to know who authorized an accounting trick designed to hide the cost of the Premier’s hydro borrowing scheme. The Auditor General has been clear, based on emails she accessed as part of her investigation, that the Liberal government knew the astronomical cost and did it anyway. The Premier won’t admit that she knew, and when, and neither will the minister.

Will the Premier stop telling Ontarians that she is open and transparent and actually be open and transparent and release those emails right now?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: Minister of Energy.

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: Again, when it comes to the emails that we are providing to the Auditor General, when it comes to the fair hydro plan, we are in compliance. We’re continuing to work with her office. We’ve identified 80 custodians of the request, with 40 catchphrases or words. That produced two million emails. We then had the firm narrow that down to the specific file. That produced 145,000 emails with these phrases. We then have the entire Ministry of Energy working on identifying all of the emails that will comply with the ask from the Auditor General. So we are complying, we are acting right now.

We have over 13,000 emails—13,212 to be exact. We’ve made sure that we’re going to continue to provide those emails to the Auditor General, and we’ll continue to work with her office.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Peter Tabuns: Again to the Premier: The people of this province have had enough of this Liberal government’s partisan manoeuvring. They’ve had too many vague statements, too much political doublespeak and way too many “I don’t recalls” from the Premier.

The government set aside $500,000 for a lawyer to assemble these emails for the Auditor General. It should be easy for the Premier to release those emails to the public. Will the Premier release those emails now?

Hon. Glenn Thibeault: As I said before and as I’ll say again, Mr. Speaker, there were 80 custodians identified who were involved in the fair hydro plan. Of those 80 custodians, 40 catchphrases or words were then identified that needed to be turned over. That produced two million emails. Those two million emails were reviewed by the firm to which we’ve paid approximately $40,000—we will not be going over $60,000 on this. That firm then identified those 145,000 emails, which the Ministry of Energy is now identifying and releasing. We’ve released 13,212 emails to the Auditor General.

We’re going to continue to work with the Auditor General’s office. We’re going to continue to provide the emails as we identify those 145,000 that pertain to this case. We’ll continue to work with the Auditor General on this file.

Poverty

Mr. Ted McMeekin: My question is for the Minister of Housing and the minister responsible for poverty reduction. Minister, we know that the Local Poverty Reduction Fund is an important component of our government’s renewed poverty reduction strategy. These funds help community organizations provide innovative and local solutions to poverty in their area.

Yesterday, sir, I was pleased to join with you, announcing that Food4Kids in Hamilton will receive $250,000 as part of the Local Poverty Reduction Fund for their Weekends Without Hunger program. This program helps single-parent families by delivering food directly to their homes on weekends when school nutrition programs are not running. I was pleased today to hear this round of funding has a special focus on food security issues. That’s good.

Speaker, can the good minister tell us more about the Local Poverty Reduction Fund and what kinds of initiatives were supported through the third round of funding?

Hon. Peter Z. Milczyn: I want to thank the member from Ancaster–Dundas–Flamborough–Westdale for the question and for his career-long commitment to poverty reduction.

Through the Local Poverty Reduction Fund, Ontario is helping to break the cycle of poverty for children and youth, increase employment and income security, increase food security and end homelessness in Ontario. The Local Poverty Reduction Fund announced in April 2015 it is investing $50 million to support sustainable, community-driven initiatives that measurably improve the lives of those most affected by poverty. Through the third round of the OPRF, Ontario is providing more than $16 million to 48 projects across Ontario, including $4.5 million specifically for food security.

We know there’s much more to do, and we continue to make strategic investments such as these to help break the cycle of poverty in the province.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Supplementary?

Mr. Ted McMeekin: Again to the Minister of Housing and the minister responsible for poverty reduction: I’m pleased to hear that the third round of funding for the local poverty reduction program has been distributed to such helpful programs.

I urge all members of this House to be aware of the Local Poverty Reduction Fund and highlight the successful work we’re doing together to reduce poverty across Ontario. What makes the Local Poverty Reduction Fund unique is that we are in fact collecting data, and we can measure whether it’s successful and whether it should be replicated or not.

Can the minister tell this House how the Local Poverty Reduction Fund is helping to gather evidence to measurably improve the lives of those most impacted by poverty?

Hon. Peter Z. Milczyn: Our Poverty Reduction Strategy sets bold targets to ensure that our efforts are having the greatest impact and ensures that we tackle poverty in a comprehensive and coordinated way. Through our government’s Local Poverty Reduction Fund, we’re evaluating what works, so that we can replicate those successes elsewhere throughout the province and lift more people out of poverty. These projects focus on local community partnerships, including a third-party evaluation component, which is important because better data will help communities develop better solutions to increase food security, better employment, reduce homelessness and help people find jobs and keep their homes.

Mr. Speaker, we’re continuing to make sure that people have the resources they need and they’re able to take

part in the economic growth that we know they can participate in.

Government accounting practices

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: My question is to the Premier of Ontario. Like her government, Enron also hid large debts off of its balance sheet. It became one of the worst corporate scandals of all time.

Here, the “unfair” hydro plan is on track to becoming Ontario’s worst political scandal, and that’s a feat. Why? Let’s put it in perspective. This costs more than the $1 billion wasted at eHealth, $1.2 billion in cancelled gas plants and the $2-billion smart meter rip-off, and it all happened under the Treasury Board president’s watch. The unfair hydro scheme is $4 billion in unnecessary interest payments that Ontarians will be paying for decades to come.

The question for the Premier: Does she condone the gross incompetence of her Treasury Board president?

Hon. Kathleen O. Wynne: President of the Treasury Board.

Hon. Liz Sandals: Oh, dear, where to start? Let’s go back to where this really did start, Speaker. This started with the people of Ontario, who said to us, “We appreciate the fact that you’ve cleaned up the air and shut down the coal plants, but this is really costing too much on our hydro bills.” We said, “Yes, you’re right.”

Cabinet made two important decisions: The first of those decisions was to separate what were social programs out of the hydro bill and put them on the tax base. In fact, that amounts to—just to remind people because this number was also provided yesterday—$7.7 billion over five years that has been shifted because it’s social programs to the tax base—

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Thank you. Supplementary?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: I guess I got my answer, Speaker: The Premier does condone gross incompetence. If they want to start from what they said—“Where to start?”—if they don’t know where to start, how about we start with the truth?

This isn’t the first time the Treasury Board president has proven to be incompetent when it comes to the public accounts of Ontario. She has had an ongoing “accounting dispute” with the auditor over the pension assets, which has left a $5-billion hole in their budget. Now the minister is claiming an “accounting dispute” with the auditor, who found an additional $4 billion in unnecessary interest.

The auditor is using standard and accepted accounting practices; the Financial Accountability Officer agrees. The Liberals are just making it up again. They are making Bernie Madoff look ethical. Does the Premier condone this type of political corruption?

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Stop the clock. The member will withdraw.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Withdrawn. Sorry; I put the wrong word in there.

The Speaker (Hon. Dave Levac): Minister?

Hon. Liz S