Manitoba Hansard — 8 June 1995 (Sitting 12B, 36th Legislature, 1st Session)

36-1-12b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLV No.12B -10 a.m., Thursday, June 8,1995

Name ASHTON, Steve BARRETI, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNSf, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LA THLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Aff"diation Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob lin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River � N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

1041 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, June 8, 1995 The House met at 10 a.m. ORDERS OF THE DAY (continued) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This morning this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. When the committee last sat it had been considering item 2. Consumer Affairs on page 28 of the Estimates book and on page 23 of the yellow supplement book. Item 2.(

a) Consumers' Bureau. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Chairman, I have just a few more questions in this section, and perhaps we could pass it and move on to the Corporate Affairs

section and then on to the Minister's Salary, where we can ask all the questions that we wish. I would like to know what has been happening with regard to the minister's investigation of the negative options marketing situation of a few months �ack. Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Chairman, we met with the cable television companies, we met with the Consumers' Association, a number of people in this area to try and determine whether the issue of negative option marketing was a problem or not.

From our investigations it would appear that it is only a problem when dealing with the question of cable television. That has really been the major problem area, because of the technological changes associated with that and the fact that the only way to not use negative option marketing would have been for the cable companies to go out and install what they call a trap, at not insignificant cost. To do that they would have to go out and install it on every house and then, based on positive option marketing if you will, go back and take it out again.

The cost of doing that would be significantly higher overall to everyone than it would be in the negative option marketing strategy. We have to look at it on the basis of what is in the best interests of the consumer. One is based on principle, the other based on cost. If the cost is significantly higher for the consumer, we do not think the best interests of the consumer are protected, notwithstanding the fact that I know a number of people were upset and so on as a result of it.

If the cost was going to be twice as high, it did not seem to us to make a whole lot of sense to pursue the issue at all, and that is where it has been at. Mr. Maloway: Those are all the questions I have in this particular section, so perhaps we could pass it and move on to Corporate Affairs. Mr. Chairperson: Item 2. (

a) Consumers' Bureau

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $919,200. Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I just want to clarify. The Residential Tenancies Commission is entirely separate from the branch? Mr. Ernst: Yes. Ms. Cerilli: I have some questions with respect to the commission as well. Mr. Ernst: Ask them. Ms. Cerilli: Yesterday we were discussing the issue of enforcement of work repair orders. Part of that discussion, particularly for substandard housing-! hesitate using the word slum housing or slum landlords, but that is what the common term for the kind of properties that I am having drawn to my attention.

It is particularly a concern when those properties are collecting rent from tenants on social allowance. I have heard that there is as much as $50 million a year being

1042 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 1995 paid in Manitoba to substandard properties from social allowance. We were trying to determine yesterday ifthere could be a better system for City of Winnipeg health inspection orders being enforced through the Residential Tenancies Branch. Part of that would include ensuring that work orders on properties where social allowance recipients live are automatically given to the Family Services department. Can the minister explain if that has occurred? I know that it is something that the former critics for Housing have been asking for. Is that now the case? Mr.

Ernst: You would bave to ask the Family Services minister. I do not know. Ms. Cerilli: Could the minister consult with his staff because it would have to cop1e from this department. Is the information leaving this department? Mr. Ernst: Let me clarify the question then. You want to know does a question of a work order from the City of Winnipeg go to Family Services and then does Family Services notify us? Is that the substance of your question? Ms. Cerilli: No. I would prefer if all the work orders from the City of Winnipeg went to the Residential Tenancies Branch.

At this point I am just wondering if the properties that are going through the system with Residential Tenancies are brought to the attention of the Family Services department. So let us just worry, first of all, with the properties that are being dealt with by your own department. Mr. Ernst: If we are in a situation where rent is redirected in order to pay for repairs or things of that nature, then, yes, Family Services is consulted. We do not necessarily know that somebody is on social assistance when they phone up and say, we have a problem.

If they do not tell us they are on social assistance, we do not know and, quite frankly, it is none of our business to know particularly what the circumstances of the tenant are. The tenant should be dealt with, regardless of their own circumstances, in the obviously, because the rent comes from Family Services, we have to know that. Ms. Cerilli: Well, this is a situation where the social allowance recipients often do not pay their rent directly themselves. It just comes offtheir cheques, so they are really, in a sense, not the tenant paying the rent.

It is the Family Services department that is paying the rent, which means that all the money is within the purview of the provincial government, and all the responsibility for paying the rent often to properties that are substandard is within the purview of the provincial government. It does not make sense to many of us that this should continue.

The minister could clarify perhaps the amount of money that is being paid to substandard housing from social allowance, but it is a lot of money, and I think that this is an area where the government could do more to ensure that work orders are going to be complied with when there are social allowance recipients. As I said yesterday, these are often people who feel that they cannot make a lot of noise and complain about their landlords because then they are concerned that they will not get a good reference if they feel that they have to move. It is a serious situation.

The minister yesterday was trying to make it appear that this is not a problem, and in some neighbourhoods, it may not be a problem, but in many neighbourhoods, it is a large problem. I have with me a study that was done in the William Whyte area, which identifies over 200 properties. There are over 200 properties that need repair, and there are over 471 single dwellings with serious structural deficiencies in that one neighbourhood in the inner city of Winnipeg.

I am going to ask more questions with respect to that study, but right now what I am trying to do is encourage the minister to look seriously at developing a better system with Family Services and social allowance so that we can discontinue this practice of spending millions on rent on buildings that are substandard and have outstanding work orders. same manner. If there is a rent redirect situation, then * (1010) -

June 8, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1043 Mr. Ernst: Firstly, let me say that it is my under standing of the functioning of Family Services that anyone on social assistance has the option and the right to go out and determine a place of accommodation for themselves within whatever allowed amount is available for rent. So the occupant is in fact the tenant. The tenant signs an agreement with the landlord for occupancy of a premise.

It may be that the amount of money distributed to the landlord is done for convenience sake out of the Department of Family Services by direct payment, but it is the occupant or the person on social assistance who is in fact the tenant and has the contract with the landlord, not the government. Ms. Cerilli: That may be the case, that they are the ones that are signing the lease. Correct me if I am wrong, there are a number of cases where the rent is simply paid from the department. Again, this should be something that the minister is aware of.

He may try to say that I should be asking this question in Family Services, but the government over and over again is talking about better communication and co-operation between departments. This is an area where it is extremely necessary. I think we have the ability to ensure that more people who are on low incomes have better housing, have better accommodations, safer, more healthful accommodations, if we can use the abilities that we have to have government departments co-operate to see that work orders for repairs are going to be conducted. Mr.

Ernst: I thank the member for her advice and we will certainly be taking that into consideration in our discussions with other departments as well as the City of Winnipeg, as I indicated to her yesterday. Ms. Cerilli: One of the other issues with respect to social allowance recipients who are tenants is that a number of them end up drawing social allowance money from their food budget to pay their rent. I wonder if the minister can confirm that practice and if he could advise the committee if this is something that has ever been looked at, first of all, by his branch. Mr. Ernst: No, I cannot confirm that.

That would be a matter to be dealt with by the Department of Family Services. We would not know that, first of all. Secondly, our jurisdiction relates to rent regulation and rent premises regulation as opposed to what somebody pays. So Family Services would be the appropriate department. Ms.

Cerilli: I would encourage the minister when he is having the discussion with. the Family Services minister and staff regarding the payment to social allowances in unsafe properties if they could also look at this issue of more than the 30 percent which is recommended by Canada Mortgage and Housing being paid for housing, also look at the fact that a lot of this money is also going for substandard accommodations, that not only are they paying that money from social allowance but it is more than the recommended 30 percent. I have talked to people who are paying as much as 50 percent for accommodations.

I think this is a serious issue that warrants the minister's attention. One of the other issues that is often a problem for tenants is ensuring that the landlord is on an ongoing basis maintaining the property. I wonder if the minister can clarify for me the percentage of the rental income for properties that is to be spent on regular maintenance and then how that is enforced with landlords in the province. Mr. Ernst: As I indicated to the member yesterday, I do not know that it would depend on the age and condition of a premise whether it requires more or less maintenance.

As I indicated, The Residential Tenancies Act, which governs all of the activities of the department, is set up as a housing court. Our job under The Residential Tenancies Act is to carry out those duties that relate principally to the issues of complaint, both as to amount of rent and condition of premises. We do not regularly inspect premises. We do not set standards. Those are done by the City of Winnipeg in the case of Winnipeg and, outside of that, I suppose, I am not sure of all of the jurisdictions but not ourselves.

The concerns that the member expressed, while very valid, could either in part be addressed by the City of Winnipeg in the case of Winnipeg in terms of health and building inspection orders or alternately, if there

1044 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 1995 are programs required to assist those kinds of things, as occurred in the past, for instance, landlord RRAP was a very good example, Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program, which was in part delivered by the city and by the Department of Housing. Those are issues that the member should raise with the Housing minister perhaps but not with this department because that is not the mandate and function of The Residential Tenancies Act. Ms. Cerilli: That is what I am trying to clarify.

As I understand it, there is a requirement for property owners to spend 10 percent of the money that they generate from their leased properties on maintenance and repair annually, and I am asking for some clarification on that and to fmd out how that is enforced and, if it is not by this division of the government, who is responsible for that? Mr. Ernst: We have no requirement such as the member outlines, nor are we aware of any. Ms. Cerilli: I made reference earlier to a study that was done by, the north end housing project is the name of the study. It was done in the William Whyte area.

I am wondering, first of all, if the minister has had a chance to review this study. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, first of all, I am not in possession of a copy of that study, nor is the department. The department became aware of the study by virtue of a press release that was issued by whomever commissioned the study, I assume. They have met with the City of Winnipeg. The City of Winnipeg indicated that they had inspected all of those properties. Yet they have given us no referrals to act upon under The Residential Tenancies Act up to this point. Ms.

Cerilli: I appreciate the minister's comments that, again, as he was saying yesterday, it is up to the City of Winnipeg, if they do the inspections, to refer. Can the minister confirm if there have been any inspections done by his department in this neighbourhood? It is the William Whyte area. *

(1020) Mr. Ernst: We may have. Without specific addresses, it would be hard to tell. If a tenant called the Residential Tenancies Branch and complained, then, as we indicated yesterday, we would go out and inspect. It may be that some tenants within the scope of that study have called, but we have received no referrals from the City of Winnipeg as a result of this study. Ms.

Cerilli: In an area such as this which indicates that there is a total of 249 units which they deem as unacceptable, and then they go and they list the kinds of problems that it would have-foundation, walls, roof areas-these are major structural problems that could be causing problems for the tenant with leaking roofs, water in the basement, major problems like that. In a neighbourhood such as this, would the minister consider a project with roving inspectors?

In an area that is identified as having a high concentration of substandard housing, could we look at having some projects like that, which I know have been undertaken in other areas, especially considering what the minister said yesterday, where there are only two inspectors responsible for the entire city. We could, I think, do a lot for neighbourhoods like this by having a short program, particularly when a lot of the properties have been identified in a study like this. Would that be something that the minister would be open to looking at in co-operation with the city and a neighbourhood group? Mr.

Ernst: As I explained to the member yesterday, we are a court function, and courts do not go out looking for criminals. The jurisdiction in the case of criminals lies with the police department, and the police department in this instance is the City of Winnipeg, dealing with health or building occupancy-related matters. It is their job to inspect. It is their job to enforce. We can assist them in terms of enforcement, when asked to do so, by redirecting rent to ensure that needed repairs and so on are conducted, but it is not our job to be out policing something.

We collectively, as elected members of governments, get accused regularly of duplicating efforts. That is one of the things that governments right across the country, municipal, provincial, federal, all look at, is trying to eliminate duplication of efforts. -

June 8, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1045 The City of Winnipeg has an inspection staff. It has laws, and it has the juri sdiction to both inspect and enforce those laws. We can assist them from time to time if the owners of the property refuse. We can redirect the rent in order to see that the repairs are conducted, but the mandate and the jurisdiction and the inspection forces all reside at the City of Winnipeg, and I do not think any government should be out duplicating efforts. Ms.

Cerilli: I thank the minister for that answer, but one of the objectives of the division is to provide information and education programs to landlords and tenants and to ensure the provision of The Residential Tenancies Act is understood and complied with by landlords and tenants. There have been areas in the city, probably outside of the city as well, identified where that is not happening. I would suggest in this area there probably are a lot of people who do not speak English. There are a lot of people who probably have problems in accessing government and following through on government systems.

If the minister is not open to having a program with roving inspectors, perhaps then having a special program in co-operation with the city and neighbourhood groups to ensure that tenants in that area would get information so that they would understand how . to utilize the court system of this branch, because the way that it is working now, entirely complaint driven, the provisions of The Residential Tenancies Act, I am not convinced that they are being understood and complied with. Mr.

Ernst: In terms of education about landlords and tenants, we do conduct seminars if you want to call them that, but public meetings for people to become aware of the situations related to The Landlord and Tenant Act. We are also looking at broadening that program with some volunteers because our staff is limited, and they do it on an as-available basis.

We are looking at broadening that program with some volunteers, and hopefully, by this fall, we will be able to have further programs and we could, for instance, in an area like this go in and conduct one of those educational processes so that people do become aware of what their rights are under The Landlord and Tenant Act. Ms. Cerilli: I appreciate the minister's openness to that suggestion.

I think that it would be a program that would increase the quality of housing for a lot of neighbourhoods in the province, a lot of communities in the province, because I would hope that the objective of the branch is not just to act as a court but is to try to ensure that the standards for housing that are set out in the act are going to be attained.

When we are dealing with groups that are of a lower socioeconomic status, I think we have to make extra effort to ensure that they are going to have access to information and be able to have the support they need to follow through and make the system work for them; that is often how I refer to it, so they can make the residential tenancies system work for them and their family. Mr.

Ernst: Well, as I have said, we do conduct educational meetings from time to time with staff on an as-available basis, and we are looking at expanding that horizon by utilizing volunteers as we do under the Consumer area, where we have quite a good body, 30 or 40, I think, volunteers under that program to go out and speak to groups on consumer-related issues. So it has worked well under the consumer side and we hope it will work equally as well under this side, although there are many legalities, shall we say, that have to be addressed.

There is an intensive training period that would be required to make sure volunteers were well aware of these things and do not get themselves into trouble, or us or the tenant for that matter. Ms. Cerilli: I look forward to learning more about this volunteer program. I would think that there are a lot of people from that community who have been working on these issues f or a long time that probably would be interested in the volunteer program and could probably work together on developing that, and it could be a good thing for not only this neighbourhood but many others.

I just want to quickly ask a couple of questions with respect to the Residential Tenancies Commission. First of all, I want to ask the minister, what kind of records are kept of the hearings for the commission and what kind of access is there to the record of hearings? Mr. Ernst: I can advise the member, this is not a court of record such as the Court of Queen's Bench, where

1046 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 1995 there are taped transcripts or court reporting facilities available. Commissioners would keep anecdotal notes, in dealing with an issue, would keep their own notes of the proceedings, noting information as it is presented and so on, but there is no formal transcript process associated with this as there would be in a court of record. That information is available. What happens is that when they give a decision of course they give a decision with reasons, and that information of course is the primary focus of what they do. *

(1030) Ms. Cerilli: First of all, do tenants have equal and full access to any of the commissioners' recordings that they would take? Mr. Ernst: The commission is sort of the court oflast resort, if you will. They go through the Residential Tenancies Branch. Then there are public hearings. There is a decision made. If they are not happy with that, there are two processes in the branch, and then they go to the commission on sort of a final appeal. That appeal is binding so that once their decision is issued, that is it, unless they have erred in a matter of law.

There are roughly between 10,000 and 12,000 cases per year heard by the Residential Tenancies Branch. The '93-94 annual report indicates that 546 of those were appealed to the commission, about 50-50 between the tenant and landlord. Of all of those, 24 filed application for leave to the Court of Appeal and, of those, the Court of Appeal considered one and dismissed it. Ms. Cerilli: That was not my question, with all due respect. Mr. Ernst: Well, I am not through.

So based on that, while information is available from the records of the commissioners, I do not know what anybody would want to do with it, because there is no further opportunity for the tenant or the landlord, whoever is doing the appealing, to go beyond the commission unless it is on a point of law. So I gave you the statistics in order to let you know the kind of order of magnitude. You are dealing with 10,000 or 12,000 cases of which about 5 percent get appealed to the commission. Of those, 24 made application to the Court of Appeal.

The problem is that they do not understand, in many cases, that the application of the Court of Appeal is based on a point of law, not on the substance of the matter. So 24 of the 25 were dismissed. They were not given leave to appeal. One was accepted but it was dismissed also by the Court of Appeal. It is the end of the line, so to speak, when the commissioners are dealing with the issue. Ms. Cerilli: I think that there are often large sums of money at stake with these issues, particularly large sums of money when you are considering from the tenants' perspective, thousands of dollars often.

The staff are aware of one case where I was involved and staff were kind enough to have a meeting. It was found out that there was a problem and an appeal was granted. It had to do with the original area I was asking questions about, and my concern is full and equal access on the part of tenants to any records. One of my other concerns is the use of lawyers. I would like some comparison between the number of landlords that go into the appeal court or the court in the commission for the Residential Tenancies Branch with a lawyer and compare that with the number of tenants who visit the commission with a lawyer.

Mr. Ernst: We will have to find that out. There is no requirement, of course, for counsel before the commission, nor is there prohibition. Anyone, if they want to bring a counsel to the table, can do so, but there is no requirement and there is no prohibition. Staff just advised me, Mr. Chairman, that almost never at the branch level do they ever see counsel, that is, in the first two determinations.

So of the 10,000 or 12,000 cases that are dealt with a year, 95 percent of them would be unrepresented and dealt with and the other 5 percent that get appealed to the commission, we will have to determine how many would appear with counsel and how many would not. We do not know offhand. -

June 8, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1047 Ms. Cerilli: So there is an opportunity for either party to bring a lawyer to the commission. We are talking about the commission now. I understand there are no lawyers allowed when it is dealt with at the branch level but, at the commission level, either party can bring in a lawyer? I would like to know the breakdown for either side. How many cases are utilizing lawyers? Mr. Ernst: As I said in my earlier answer, Mr.

Chairman, there is no prohibition anywhere in the system to not have a lawyer, but there also is no requirement for them to have legal counsel represent them. So if they want to bring a lawyer to the very first meeting with the Residential Tenancies Branch, that is up to them. They have to pay for it or have Legal Aid or something, but there is no prohibition. Ms. Cerilli: I thought the minister just said before that at the branch level, there were to be no lawyers involved. Mr. Ernst: No, what I said was, the staff had informed me that they seldom see lawyers at the branch level.

It is not a prohibition, just most people do not deal with counsel at the branch level. I do not know how many deal with them at the commission level, and we are going to find that out for you. Ms. Cerilli: Maybe just to conclude this area-it is an area where I think we could spend a lot more time, but I will pass over back to the member for Elmwood (Mr.

Maloway}-1 would just like to ask the minister if he would also, through his staff, provide me with an outline of the procedures that are to be followed, both at each level with the branch appeal process that we outlined yesterday as well as, when we go to the commission, the procedures that are supposed to be followed. Mr.

Ernst: There is some information available, and I will send my assistant upstairs to get you one from the office initially, but we are going to be producing, as I indicated yesterday, a policy manual, a guide book, if you will, in kind of plain language so people can have a better understanding in more simple language as to how to deal with these issues. That will not be available yet until the fall at the earliest, but when that is available, we will certainly provide you with a copy. My assistant will go upstairs and get a copy of that. We have a sheet that we send out.

It has to do with rent regulations primarily and the processes associated with that. We will give you that, at least for now, and then, when we have the further one available, we will provide it to you at that time. Ms. Cerilli: There is one small thing that I meant to ask when I was asking about the recordings. I understand that there is no Hansard or documentation kept, but are the initial proceedings taped? Mr. Ernst: No, they are not. Ms. Cerilli: Thank you. *

(1040) Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 2. Consumer Affairs (

a) Consumers' Bureau

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $919,200-pass; 2.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures $206,900-pass. 2.(

b) Residential Tenancies

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $2,466,1 00-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $643,800-pass. 2.(

c) Automobile Injury Compensation Appeals Commission (

l) Salaries and Employee Benefits $553,300-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $299,200-pass. 2.(

d) Grants $91,500-pass. Resolution 5.2 RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,180,000 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs, Consumer Affairs for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996. 3. Corporate Affairs (

a) Corporations Branch

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $934,100. Mr. Maloway: I want to begin this

section by asking the minister a few questions regarding the Manitoba Securities Commission and its role in the resolution of the Bombay Bicycle Club-Clancy's venture fiasco of last year, where the Minister of Finance failed to collect $350,000 in taxes owing to the taxpayers of this province.

1048 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 1995 At that time we were made aware that certain investors in this project had filed complaints with the Securities Commission alleging that there was a case of nondisclosure, that they were not aware of what they were getting into. I would like to know whether the minister could just talk us through that whole affair and let us know what the final resolve was. Mr. Ernst: First, let me introduce Mr. David Cheap. He is the Chief Legal Counsel to the Manitoba Securities Commission. Now, let me inquire.

The question that the member raises, and I think we even talked about this last year in Estimates, if I am not mistaken, the commission has an exempt status for limited offerings to what they refer to as sophisticated investors who sign off on the basis that they are sophisticated investors and need not have all of the trappings associated with ones that are broadly based. That was the case with respect to this issue. They had exempt status and, therefore, we did not have any jurisdiction with respect to the subsequent work.

It was again investigated at the time it reached public knowledge and so on and was subsequently determined again that it was exempt, and we had no jurisdiction and no cause of action. Mr. Maloway: I thank the minister for that information. I can, however, tell you that I did get a call from one of the investors, actually several of the investors. This particular person was anything but a sophisticated investor. She was a manager or assistant manager at one of the restaurants and put her life savings of$10,000 into this venture.

Actually, it was the money that she was planning to get married with and she phoned me to let me know that she had lost it all. She felt that she was not given any information, or any real information about the state of affairs of this company. So it appears that while Mr. Talon [phonetic] may have been able to convince the Securities Commission that he was dealing with knowledgeable investors, the plan went astray somewhere along the road because he was not dealing, in this particular instance anyway, with somebody who was knowledgeable. Mr.

Ernst: As part of the exempt status arrangement, investors have to file a declaration with the Manitoba Securities Commission agreeing that they are knowledgeable and understand what they are doing and are, in fact, "sophisticated investors." They have filed that with the commission as a declaration. Mr. Maloway: Can the minister then determine whether in fact the commission did follow this through and investigate all of the investors, no matter how small their investment was, and is satisfied that they did file this form? With this woman, I am not aware that she did not file the form. She may have.

I am not sure. I have no idea whether in fact your investigators did talk to this particular person. Can you assure me that you talked to every one of the investors and every one of the investors did file this form? Mr. Ernst: We will have to do some checking of the records and so on with respect to this issue, but by and large-and it was looked at twice, investigated twice. How extensively that investigation went into individual investors or not, we are not sure at this point, but the fact of the matter is, once it is determined that it has been exempt, then it is exempt.

That exemption has requirements attached to it and it was investigated and determined that it had a proper exemption and, therefore, we had no jurisdiction, but we will investigate further. Mr. Cheap also advised me that if there was misrepresentation that took place somewhere along the line in the exemption process, that there are expanded civil remedies available to the parties to whom misrepresentation took place. Again, that is their own hook. They have to pursue that in a civil matter, but there are expanded remedies as a result of that. Mr.

Maloway: I believe the expanded civil remedies would be an attempt to recover some of the money from this venture, and it has been proven that there is no money in this venture. The money is lost. The province, the taxpayers are out $350,000, the investors are out a tremendous amount of money. Why would the assistant of one of the restaurants who put in $10,000, all of her life savings, why would she throw

June 8, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1049 more good money after bad trying to recover when she knows that there is no money there? I think what the investors were looking for is some responsibility on the part of the commission, because they felt that the commission-in fact, in some of these cases, it would be better if there were no commission, because perhaps some of these investors would have their eyes a little more wide open. I think what happens is that the people raising the money use the commission as a shield and pretend that it is a stamp of approval.

They say, well, you know, we are checked through with the Securities Commission, so it puts the investor at ease, and the investor then feels that things must be all right and writes their cheque for the investment.

Now the investor realizes that they are out their life savings, they recognize that they will not get their money back but, at a bare minimum, they want the government to come forward and at least charge the parties with misrepresentation or put them in jail or do something to them, because they do not like the idea that the person who took all this money is in Hilton Head, South Carolina, golfing on what they think is their money, and it probably is. So you have to understand it from how, when the investor phones me, they are seeing it. They feel that there is a stamp of approval there by the commission.

They know they are not going to get any money, so offering civil remedies is of no help to any of these investors, because they know there is no money to be got. *

(1050) Mr. Ernst: The declaration that the investor signs, in bold print across the bottom of the form, says they are waiving-saying the commission is not dealing with this as an exempt status and that they are waiving any rights or information with respect to that. This is not in fine print on page 29, it is right above where they sign, bold print. Mr. Maloway: I will have to take the minister at his word. If he endeavours to get back to me with regard to whether the investors signed these forms, on my part, I will attempt to make certain that these investors in fact did sign the forms.

If they have signed the forms, then I guess I cannot quarrel with it because they cannot then argue that they really did not know what was going on, but, in fact, if money is being raised and people have not been signing these forms, then I would suggest that the commission then owes it to the public to take a stronger stand and attempt to get to the bottom of these situations.

Once again, you are dealing with the taxpayers of this province giving up $350,000 in sales tax and the employees being out money and the investors being out of money and the government apparently sitting back and not being overly interested in the situation. We had a situation the other day with the Finance minister sitting back and saying a year later, after reports in the newspapers indicated there was going to be an investigation done, when I ask him a year later what sort of investigation was done, clearly nothing has been done, and they have no intention of going after these people for this money.

It seems that the more money you lose, the less inclined they are to track it down. If it is $5,000, $10,000 you are looking for, they manage to get the investigators out there and to collect the money, but when it is $350,000 with well-connected people involved, it seems to me that the government is very reluctant to track this thing down. Mr. Ernst: Well, not subscribing to any of what the member said in his last dissertation, if he would provide us with the name or names of investors that have contacted him, not-1 do not want him to do it here publicly.

We will investigate to see if those people signed the forms as indicated. Mr. Maloway: Just to follow up on different questions regarding the Securities Commission, I am wondering how many other investigations have been conducted by the Securities Commission. I am aware of a couple of recent ones that were discussed in detail on the Peter Warren show. I think you are aware of those recently. I am wondering if

1050 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 1995 there is an increased amount of activity in this area of people losing money in these investment schemes. Mr. Ernst: The level of activity for the commission has not significantly increased in recent time, although there have been some fairly high-profile cases and, of course, the more public hearings that the investor and securities dealer in Brandon-for instance, they had a major hearing out there, were there for two or three weeks I think, plus had significant public hearings before the commission and so on there.

So it has been a little more higher profile activity, but I am advised by staff that generally numbers of complaints are roughly the same. Mr. Maloway: I would like to ask some questions about the special operating agency. The corporation's branch, I believe, is being turned into a special operating agency this fall, and that will be the second special operating agency in this department out of the 10 that are planned, or is it 11 that are planned? Mr. Ernst: I do not remember exactly the overall number but there are more than five.

I think eight or 10 is the number, but with respect to the corporation's branch, they are just going into the process now of doing a feasibility study with respect to special operating agency status. It would not take place until April I, I996, beginning the new fiscal year. They will go through the process and create a business plan for the agency, and then it would have to be approved and a number of hoops gone through to put themselves into a position to be a special operating agency starting on April I, I996. Mr.

Maloway: The special operating agency then, the plan is to keep it in the same location that it is now. Mr. Ernst: Yes. Mr. Maloway: Presumably it is much too early to be asking the minister for a list of the board members of this special operating agency but to follow-up on the question I asked him yesterday, has he been able to get us a list of the existing boards of directors of the five special operating agencies in the government, because we are interested in a list of the appointees to these boards. Mr. Ernst: You would have to ask the minister responsible for each of those special operating agencies.

I am sure they would be provided to you by those ministers. Mr. Maloway: I thought I had asked for that information yesterday, and I thought that the minister- Mr. Ernst: I do not have jurisdiction over that. Mr. Maloway: Perhaps again, I could ask the minister then, would he provide us the list of the government appointed board of directors of the Vital Statistics special operating agency, the one that he has jurisdiction over? Mr.

Ernst: With respect to the Vital Statistics agency, they say it is a relatively new agency, and we have been in the process of looking for people who have an interest or some expertise, because the Vital Statistics agency is somewhat unique and when you are dealing with automobiles like the Fleet Vehicles agencies, it is not hard to fmd people who know things about leasing cars and so on. With respect to the Vital Statistics Agency, it is a unique kind of situation. You have a captive market, so to speak, and so on.

We are looking at talking to the genealogical society and a few others where we have major users of the system and trying to find people from there, but the board has not formally been appointed and will likely be appointed very soon. We have not finalized the board yet. Mr. Maloway: I thought that the special operating agency had been operating for a year now, so it has been operating without a board for a year. *

(1100) Mr. Ernst: The boards are advisory, reporting structures through the deputy minister as the chair. So, while we have not had one, obviously they are not off running around on their own; they are being supervised reasonably closely and, of course, out to follow their business plan. But the advisory board is more on an operational basis to determine how better they can serve their consumers and things of that nature. So we

June 8, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1051 are looking for the kind of people who would be most appropriate for that kind of operation, and we expect to have that concluded very shortly. Mr. Maloway: I would like to move on to the Public Utilities Board and ask a· couple of questions about some of the issues regarding the Public Utilities Board. Yesterday, the minister will recall, I asked some questions about the situation in Elmwood cemetery.

The situation there is one in which the cemetery has got itself into the situation of tax arrears with the city, and I understand the city is on the verge of taking over the property, and my concern as regards Consumer and Corporate Affairs and the Public Utilities Board was whether or not there might be other examples of cemeteries selling prepaid funeral arrangements under which monies might disappear for operating costs over a number of years and at the end of the day the cemetery may run out of money and then be put in a situation where the taxpayers have to take it over and operate it forever and ever.

I would like to know whether the minister could answer those questions that I had asked yesterday about this. Mr. Ernst: The Elmwood Cemetery is owned by the Elmwood Cemetery Co. The gentleman, I believe lives in Toronto. I believe the name is Brian Stewart, the fellow who owns the company. First of all, with respect to prearranged funerals, there is no consumer risk. Their money is held in trust in the bank, so there is no concern there with respect to their prearranged funerals. They sell them a plot, the deed is transferred to them at the time of sale, so there is no risk there.

There may be some, I suppose, with respect to the opening and closing of the plot at time of use. With respect to the perpetual care fund, by and large, cemetery corporations are required to establish a perpetual care fund to deal with it, and it may or may not be adequate. They are also required to use ongoing operations to fund their operations at the cemetery. So it is my understanding that while Elmwood Cemetery Co. is in tax arrears with the City of Winnipeg, they are not bankrupt or have not declared bankruptcy.

It might be a better terminology, but as a result they are still operating to one level or another. They may not be satisfactory to everyone maintaining the cemetery, so that the ability of the Public Utilities Board to act is really in cases of bankruptcy, where they formally go bankrupt. Notwithstanding that, because of the interests of both, I guess, of the government and the City of Winnipeg for interred persons and families thereof in Elmwood Cemetery, we conducted a preliminary investigation last fall as to potential for bank failure, which is the biggest concern.

I mean, if the grass grows a little long is one thing, bank failure is another. Riverbank failure as opposed to putting your money in the bank. Riverbank failure was a concern, and actually in conjunction with the City of Winnipeg we have completed, and I have not yet received the report, a structural analysis of the riverbank by a soils engineer to determine what the problem is and what to do about it.

We cost-shared that with the City of Winnipeg, 50- 50, to try and determine-we really do not have jurisdiction at the moment, but it was something that I think needed to be done, and Elmwood Cemetery Co. was not doing it. So, in the best interests of interees and everyone else, in the process, we went ahead and did it jointly. As soon as we receive the report, then we will have to look at remedial action, but we probably cannot do much about that yet until the river level drops. It is still quite high and not able to deal with it. Mr.

Maloway: Perhaps the minister could provide us with a copy of the report that comes out at the time. Would that be acceptable? Mr. Ernst: As I say, I do not have a copy of the report. I am told its completed, but, no, we have not seen the report yet, so I will have to contact the city. While we paid half the cost, the city actually conducted it, their Rivers and Streams people. Mr. Maloway: Well, not being a geotechnical engineer, because that is the type of report, I believe it is, that you have to produce for this riverbank, it seems to me that we are only talking a few hundred feet of riverbank here.

It is very high at that area. The minister has identified the problem; that seems to be the

1052 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 1995 major problem. I do not know how serious it is right at the moment, but certainly it will be a problem in the next few years. I do not know whether I am correct or not, but it just seems to me that it is just a matter of erosion and that that should have really been foreseen. I mean, you do not build a house I 0 or 20 feet from the riverbank when you know that there is an erosion factor there and in 20, 30 years your house will be falling into the river, so perhaps they should not have been burying people that close to the edge of the river in the first place.

One could have probably foreseen that, but I think the long-term problem there is that basically the whole riverbank has to be shored up through either the use of riprap or some sort of stones such as you see at The Forks. So just conducting a study on Elmwood Cemetery is just solving a few hundred feet of your problem because the bank is similar all along the river. The problem that you are going to find on the Elmwood Cemetery bank is going to be the problem you find in every bank in the city. It is going to be no difference. So I do not know that you want to be conducting little geotechnical surveys.

You are going to keep the technology guy busy, but for a few hundred feet of bank, he could be doing an awful lot of surveys, but I mean, I think one survey is probably sufficient for the whole bank area. Is the minister suggesting, when this survey is available, that in fact the provincial government will step in with the city and actually do something to restore the bank? *

(1110) Mr. Ernst: First of all, let me say that this, while it is only a few hundred feet of a much longer riverbank, is a unique few hundred feet in that there are people buried very close to the edge of that riverbank and, notwithstanding the fact that the member feels that the whole area needs to be surveyed, yes, it does, but the fact of the matter is that in this little area there are people buried. I would not want to see that bank collapse and have crypts or coffins or whatever collapse along with the riverbank.

So I think we have done the responsible thing in terms of trying to move forward, at least to find out what the problems are, what the potentials are for failure and how do you remedy it. Now, the question of remedy can take many forms, and we have not addressed that issue up to this point, but there may be, you know, a number of solutions, and we will have to ask that those be pursued. But, again, as I indicated earlier, we have no jurisdiction until that company goes bankrupt, it is my understanding.

Yes, the expectation is that if there is a danger with respect to these graves, it would require an order of the Minister of Health to move them with consent to the families and so on in order to prevent them from being involved in a calamity there. Once we have an understanding of what is required, then we can issue an order to the company that they have to carry this work out, and they will have to go and deal with the issues surrounding all of that and work out a contingency plan in order to solve the problem. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Chairman, is the minister telling me that regardless of-I mean, I can see this thing being tied up in legal wrangling for years to come, and I am wondering whether the minister or the government plan to step in and do the restorative parts to the bank regardless of what happens with the owner of the cemetery. Mr. Ernst: No decision has yet been determined. We do not even have the report as to what the problem is. You know, maybe there is not a problem, and maybe it is only in the eye of the beholder, but I think common sense would indicate that there is a potential at least anyway. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Chairman, the final question then to the minister on this subject. Can he give me a date by which some action will be taken on this matter? I do not need an exact day. I am suggesting a month would be good enough. Mr. Ernst: Not really. You know, I have not even seen the report. I do not know what the problem is, nor what remedial actions might be considered, and then who is going to pay for them and how they can be

June 8, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1053 carried out. I mean, it may be that they can only be carried out in the middle of winter. I have no idea, so I cann ot give you any date. Mr. Maloway: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask some questions about the operation of the Public Utilities Board. I am concerned about the-not concerned about what the Public Utilities Board does because I think it performs a very useful function, but I am concerned about the cost of operating the board.

I believe the cost of oper ating the board is in the neighbourhood of $2 million, but that would not include all the cost of conducting the hearing which I believe are absorbed by the parties involved in the hearing. Nevertheless, there is an enormous amount of legal costs involved in these things, and I wonder whether the minister has done any comparative studies of boards in other jurisdictions, both in Canada and the United States, to see whether there is a possible way of streamlining the process a bit and achieving the same result with less cost. Mr.

Ernst: The cost you see in the budget is the cost of operating the Public Utilities Board, and it is fully recovered from the applicants, so that, while it shows as a budgetary item in the department under the Public Utilities Board, it is fully cost recovered so no tax revenue per se goes into it.

With the question of operating efficiencies and so on, we are constantly reviewing that, but while we are doing that, the issues get more and more complicated and extremely technical in nature so that the board requires a considerable amount of professional advice-engineers, accountants, lawyers, you name it, they seem to find it and use it, because, as I said, it is an extremely technical and complicated situati on.

When you are dealing with whether Centra Gas should increase their rates or not or Manitoba Hydro should have a rate increase or any number of other issues, MPIC for instance has a rate increase, then there are, you know, thousands of issues. We are dealing now with return on investment and a host of other issues which I am certainly not familiar with, but it is an extremely complicated process. Hearings take weeks to deal with all of these issues and so on.

It is a very time-consuming and albeit costly situation, and what is not shown here I guess, of course, is the experts and counsel that the utilities bring forward on their own hook. This is the cost of the board and its experts. The utilities bring forward their own experts and those costs are not shown in here because they are not direct costs to the Public Utilities Board although they are a cost ultimately to the utility.

We are pretty careful in terms of how the board operates and we cannot, because of the important work that they do, hamstring them, but at the same time we have-when the telephone company went under the jurisdic tion ofCRTC a year ago or 18 months ago, we did in fact reduce some of the costs of operation. What happened was that you are building up, overloading your people on the one hand and then, when you lose one of your major regulated utilities, the catch-up of work, you know, kind of backfilled somewhat, although we were able to reduce some of the costs. They are pretty closely contr olled.

Nobody is getting wealthy being there. Mr. Maloway: Well, the minister just repeated what I had said previously, and that is that the $2 million is the cost to the Public Utilities Board operation, but then there are all these extra costs assumed by the people that appear before the board, mainly, I would think, lawyers' fees and consultants, and so on.

It just seemed to me that there is an enormous cost to the regulation, and while the regulation is good, my question specifically was, have you done an analy sis comparing the PUB of Manitoba to similar bodies in other jurisdic tions, both in Canada and the United States, to determine whether or not there just might be a more efficient method of operating? I think it is probably going to be cumbersome no matter how you look at it, but there just may be somewhere a more efficient way of operating it. (Mr. Frank Pitura, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair) *

(1120) Mr. Ernst: What happens, Mr. Chairman, is that the chair of the Public Utilities Board, Gerry Forrest,

1054 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 1995 former deputy minister in the government, sits on a council, if you will, of similar bodies, and they regularly review ways and means of dealing with these issues. Because they are very complicated and expensive and time consuming, everyone is looking for opportunities for better ways of doing things, and so they regularly review these operations, each other's operations and ways and means of doing things on an ongoing basis.

I specifically have not ordered a study to analyze all of these things, but apart from in the internal process -and I regularly question the chair of the Public Utilities Board as to how much money he is spending related to these issues and so on. Quite frankly, the people who pay the bill also question it on a regular basis.

There is, I think, certainly a need for them to do this work, and we also have a considerable number of intervenors on a regular basis there as well, Manitoba Society of Seniors, Consumers' Association and a number of others specific perhaps to the one or two Crowns that are being dealt with. But by and large, I think it is under control. Mr. Maloway: I have one further question. Then the member for Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) will have some questions in this section, and then we can move to the Minister's Salary.

Under the Insurance Branch, I noticed that there is some reference to a Fires Prevention Tax, and I am, just out of curiosity, wondering whether any of you know what that is, and how much money do we make on that tax in a year? Mr. Ernst: There is a tax on fire insurance coverage in the province of Manitoba I think it is about 1.5 percent or I percent, somewhere in that area. That money, I do not know what the specific amount is, but it is probably in the revenue Estimates somewhere, but the money is used to run the Fire College in Brandon and the programs of the Fire Commissioner's Office here in the province.

I think I have a number here for you. Tax under The Fires Prevention Tax Act in 1993-94 was $2.6 million. Ms. Cerilli: I want to start by asking some questions. related to the Securities Commission and its authority for handling real estate agents' deposits of down payments on homes. I have had a case brought to my attention, and I want to ask the minister if he can clarify. When a real estate agent neglects to put the down payment into trust, what happens? What are the consequences? Mr. Ernst: I guess there could be a number of things.

It certainly contravenes The Real Estate Brokers Act, but it also could constitute theft, fraud, and could be a Criminal Code offence, of course, which would be subject to prosecution by the police. Ms. Cerilli: What determines if it is going to become a criminal offence and fall into the area of the police outside of just being handled by the Real Estate Board and the Securities Commission? Mr.

Ernst: Investigation by the Securities Commission-they would look at the circumstances, if it was accidental or it was reasonably assured that there was not any criminal intention, but if there was, they would simply turn it over to the police and say, go get 'em. Ms. Cerilli: So is the onus to do that, turning over of the case to the police, the responsibility of the Securities Commission or the Real Estate Board? Mr. Ernst: Well, first of all you would have to determine if it happened. There are one or two ways that can occur.

Either a complaint is laid with the Securities Commission, or we turn it up in a spot audit that occurs from time to time in brokers' offices. (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in the Chair) Then the broker may discover it and fix it right away, or the client may say it did not happen that way and call the Securities Commission, and they will investigate. But if there is evidence that indicates somebody was doing this with improper intent and so on, then it would get turned over to the police.

June 8, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1055 Ms. Cerilli: In recent experience in the province of Manitoba, what has been the penalty when there has been proof and evidence, and this has been the case where the down payment has not been properly deposited? Mr. Ernst: I do not have a specific answer for the member. I can tell you, though, that those cases where there is a regulatory charge that turns into a criminal charge and is prosecuted in the courts, we generally do not follow the regulatory charge because a criminal charge takes precedence and, obviously, is much more serious.

Staff cannot, offhand, think of a number where it has been dealt with. Just one further minu te. Yes, I just wanted to check in terms of the kinds of numbers that we are talking about here, and it happens quite rarely, apparen tly. It might happen a couple or three times a year, if that, so that we would have to look at inf ormation as to see how the prosecutions went and the court process for those that went that direction. I do not know the informa tion, and we will have to find out. Ms. Cerilli: How about if it remains just a regulatory charge? What can the penalty be for the agent? Mr.

Ernst: I guess there are two remedies; you can take them to court, where I think the maximum fine is somewhere around $1 ,000 or $2,000 or six months in jail, or we can lift their licence, or we can do both. Ms. Cerilli: So one to two months in jail-six months in jail, I should say. * (113 0) Mr. Ernst: I do not want to be held to the exact terms, but from best recollection, the fme is somewhere in the area of$1 ,000 or $2,000, we believe, and/or six months in jail, but we do not have the statute in front of us, and that is the maximum fine that the judge could award.

I should also point out, of course, that there are huge bonding requirements or signific ant bonding requirements of real estate brokers to hold and obtain a licence, and so there are monies available to claim in the event that something is misa ppropriated. Ms. Cerilli: I do have a specific case, and I am going to write a letter and bring it to the attention of the mini ster, that deals with this issue. Unf ortuna tely, I do not have it in front of me right now. It is a case file, and it is in my constituency office, but I will try and get it here for this afternoon.

It seems like it is quite a serious situation, where the agent in question has now released same property that was in question in terms of not properly depositing the down payment. I am wondering what accounta bility is there to a complainant, someone who is selling their home and has hired an agent or is working with an agent that is leasing the property that they would like to purchase and there has been an off ence like this. Is there a requirement for the initial client to be inf ormed of what the penalties are? I have a situation where a woman feels like she has really been un justly treated.

It has also to do with them not acquiring a property when there was another offer on the property that had elapsed in the deadline . Then they ended up getting the property and this woman did not. Their offer was still valid, and the expiry date on the previous offer had passed. She cannot understand, for one, why they did not get the property. So there have been a couple of irregularities. At the end of it she has not been able to find out what penalties were on the agent. She has been assured there has been a penalty.

Now she has found out that the house has been listed again at a greater price than what was initially being charged for the property. Mr. Ernst: Depends on who is dealing with this. If it is the Winnipeg Real Estate Board, we have no jurisdiction. That is a private organiza tion of realtors. They may have taken action against one of their members, which they may not make public. Certainly anything the commission does is public inf ormation.

Now I suggest to the member that if she has specific inf ormation and specifics related to another case she alluded to where she was bringing it in to the office here, in order not to prejudice anybody's rights or case in this situation, if you had arranged to simply provide that inf ormation to the Manitoba Securiti es Commission directly, then I think that is probably in

1056 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 1995 the best interest of your constituent or the person who has raised this with you. I do not think we ought to be discussing it, quite frankly, here. If there is a potential for disciplinary action or court action, I would not want to prejudice that case by having had it discussed kind of back and forth here during Estimates process. I think we are better off to deal with it directly. Ms. Cerilli: That may very well be the case, but I am just trying to determine what the policies are publicly, so that I can ensure that those are going to be applied.

It does sound like, in this case, and I have not used anyone's name, there are some irregularities. As I said, I have full intention of bringing this to the minister's desk. I also want to ask some questions related to the Real Property Amendment Act. This has been something that both the minister and I have been working on for quite some time. I just want to begin by asking, why the mini ster has not yet tabled the bill which was introduced this session? Mr.

Ernst: Well, not that I will not answer the question, but I should point out to the member this is highly irregular to be discussing legislation in Estimates committee. Nonetheless, I can tell her that the bill will be available for distribution shortly. There was one question that needed to be addressed. It came up in the intervening period between the time the bill was tabled last time and this time, although it has been read the first time.

It is my understanding of the agreement between the Premier and the Leader of the Opposition that all of these bills will not be dealt with, in any event, until the fall sitting of the Legislature. As long as all of these bills are introduced and distributed prior to June 30, that was the agreement between the two leaders. While it is not available yet, it will be shortly. Ms. Cerilli: Am I to understand that the bill has been amended or changed since this initial Bill 2 was first distributed through the house? Mr. Ernst: There will be a new bill.

It will be marginally different from the last: a couple of re wording changes by the drafters who, having had an opportunity to look at it again in the intervening period, decided on using one set of terminology instead of another. There is one amendment raised to our attention which we agreed with and which we have included in the bill. Ms. Cerilli: Can the minister tell the committee which

section of the bill has been amended? Mr. Ernst:

Section 77. Ms. Cerilli: Seventy-seven is the entire bill. Which subsection of 77? Mr. Ernst: I do not have the bill in front of me, but I am advised it is

section 77 that is being amended. The previous bill had

section 77. 1, 77.2 and so on. This is a general amendment to

section 77. Ms. Cerilli: So it is an addition, then, that we are going to see? The other sections, 77 .I and 77.2 in particular, that I am concerned about, are going to remain the same? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chairman, I am trying to be co operative as best I can here, but she will have to wait until the bill is tabled. Then we can talk about the bill itself and the appropriate sections and so on. * (114 0) Ms. Cerilli: I do have a number of concerns about the bill, that it is actually not doing what we have intended to do and I have had it looked at by a couple of lawyers and there is some agreement on that. Particularly, and I want the minister to clarify if I am understanding this correctly, in

section 77.2(1 ), the original owner of a property that had a mortgage on a property, is still responsible for that mortgage even if it has been assumed when there has been a renewed mortgage and they are not off the hook, so to speak, unless three months pass or they specifically make that request with the bank. Is that correct? -

June 8, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1057 Mr. Ernst: Mr. Chainnan, with all due respect, this is the subject matter of debate on a bill that has been introduced for first reading in the Legislature, and I do not intend to debate the bill in committee. Ms. Cerilli: I do not believe it has been introduced for first reading. The minister has just said it is a new bill. It is on the Order Paper but we have not seen the new bill yet in first reading. It certainly has not been distributed for the House, so I mean right now basically we are just discussing policy.

I think that I can ask questions of what the new policy is going to be with respect to assumed mortgages. Mr. Ernst: The bill has had first reading in the House. It has not yet been distributed, but, Mr. Chairman, again, I reiterate this is a subject matter of a bill that is before the House and will be open for debate.

The member has ample opportunity at the time that the bill is read a second time, but before it appears before a committee of the House for public scrutiny, and subsequently in report stage and third reading she will have ample opportunity to express her views on this particular bill, and what it will or will not do in her estimation. That is her right as a member of the Legislature. I do not intend to sit here and debate sections of a bill that was introduced and has died on the Order Paper previously.

So when the new bill comes forward, I will be happy to debate those issues with the member for Radisson at her convenience, but I am not going to do it here today. Ms. Cerilli: Is the minister considering first reading the reading that was done prior to the election? Mr. Ernst: No, I am not. It was read for the first time by me 10 days ago, since the new session has started. Ms. Cerilli: Well, I guess if that is the case I will not pursue discussing this bill, but it just seems to me that the minister has used a number of techniques to avoid distributing this bill now with the amendment, or discussing the bill.

I am simply wanting to get some clarification. If the minister is not willing to do that, I mean there has been a number of delays with this bill and I just do not understand the lack of co-operation that the minister is practising. I think both of us have wanted to see these amendments, and there was some confusion if the minister was really interested in seeing these amendments made to protect homeowners previously, why there was such a delay in the last session, when we were sitting, of introducing the bill. I am curious to find out what the changes are.

I would have hoped that the minister would have considered the chance that we have here. It is not going to be often that the two of us are going to be able to sit down as people that have brought this issue to the forefront in the Legislature and have a discussion about this. I am disappointed at the minister's approach to the issue. Perhaps I could have a moment to consult with my colleagues if the minister is not going to discuss this issue any further. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I would just like to ask, under the heading of Cooperative and Credit Union Regulations, which is in the

section we are now discussing, I gather that this is where the remains of what used to be a department of co operative development a few years back now exists. I regret that. We had co-ops front and centre as a separate department, and we felt that there was a lot of opportunity for a government, through such department, to enhance, promote and encourage co operative enterprises through the province. This province does have a history of co-operative enterprises and progress that is made, particularly in the farm sector, but also generally in rural Manitoba.

I think it is not unusual to find the major retail store or the major retail grocery store, if you will, in a town being owned by a co-operative. You do not see the SuperValus, you do not see the Safeways, you do not even see the IGAs in many, many Manitoba towns. You see a co-operative. Those are consumer co-ops, and of course, we have seen quite a bit of co-operation in terms of producers. Many of those are federal, of course, and they are dealing with the grain trade.

1058 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 1995 Also, you have seen development of considerable co operative activity through the financial sector, that is, through the credit union movement. I would gather that this department now-unfortunately, it does not include the word "co-operative" in its title. It would have been good if at least it was considered Consumer, Corporate and Co-operative Affairs. Maybe it was too long a title, but I know we have departments here with bigger handles than that. The point is that this minister now has his responsibility. I would like to ask the minister a general question.

Are there any initiatives? Are there any new programs that this minister is prepared to undertake looking into that would enhance and foster this very important co-operative sector that does exist in Manitoba? Mr. Ernst: I thank the member for Brandon East for the question, and I am pleased to advise him that co-op affairs has a split jurisdiction between two departments. Consumer and Corporate Affairs has the regulatory side. Industry, Trade and Tourism has the promotion and development side. So your question would be more appropriately asked of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Downey), whose Estimates will follow these, I believe. Mr. Leonard Evans: Well, I just hope that the promotion of co-ops has not been too relegated to backwaters of that department. I thank the minister for that information. I did not realize that. Perhaps I should have known, but I did not realize that. Well, in terms of regulation and I guess, therefore, general supervision of credit unions, is he satisfied with the current state of the credit union movement or the credit union service in the province?

Some years back, I know, I guess when we first took office on November 30, 1981, with the Pawley administration, I remember within weeks we had on our tables, on our desks, material about the very, very serious financial problems of the credit union movement in Manitoba at that time. In fact, we had to prevent, by a major bailout, the whole system from collapsing. At least that is what I recall. At any rate, they eventually recovered after some support. But I was wondering if the minister could comment on the current state of the credit unions that we have in the province. *

(1150) Mr. Ernst: Well, there has been a dramatic change from that time, when there was, l believe, something in the area of $20 million plus interest guarantee required by the government to shore up the system to what it is today. The credit unions, I g uess, last year probably had their best year ever from a host of different perspectives. The system is moving along fairly well. They are keeping up with their major competitions. As a matter of fact, they are backfilling some of the areas where other financial institutions have withdrawn. They have taken up the flag and moved in.

Generally speaking, I had an opportunity to attend the annual meeting of the credit union system during the election, I think it was, if I am not mistaken, and I have been very satisfied with the administration overall. There are always little areas of concern, and the odd individual credit union gets itself into difficulty from time to time, but, by and large, the system is working well. Mr. Leonard Evans: This is it, Mr. Chairman.

It seems where the odd, as the minister puts it, the odd credit union local gets into trouble, it would seem to me, usually is a result of taking excessive risk, perhaps taking more risk than it should. I am just making that as an observation. I do not have any data before me really to substantiate that, but maybe the minister could tell us. Those few who do have trouble, what usually is the basis? Is that the basis of their difficulties? Mr. Ernst: The member is pretty accurate, I guess, in terms of his assessment of this.

It is kind of a combination of excessive risk, bad management, by taking bad loans, inappropriate loans, or making a mistake or, say, bad management practices related to those particular loans.

June 8, 19 95 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1059 Mr. Leonard Evans: Yes, how does the minister's department go about checking and assessing the current state of the credit union? Do you have an audit system? Mr. Ernst: Yes, there is a general audit function of the credit union system in the province. It is carried out by the Credit Union Deposit Guarantee Corporation, formally known as the STAB fund.

We also, internally, can from time to time do special audits for, you know, whatever purpose is deemed necessary, but sort of the general ongoing monitor audit, if you will, of the system is carried out by the Guarantee Corporation. Mr. Leonard Evans: So, generally, in so many words, the system is more or less self-policing. I mean, through their central organization, they try to audit and keep track and make sure that the locals are abiding by regulations and are doing what they should be doing in terms of protecting the depositors and so on. Mr.

Ernst: One is a question of abiding by legislation, and the other is, you know, prudent financial practices, and while, under the credit union regulation side, you know, following legislation, we do have some jurisdiction, the prudent financial practice end of it is done by the Deposit Corporation on a regular basis. The Deposit Corporation is a board of directors of five, two appointed by the government, two appointed by the system and a joint agreement on a Chair.

I have had the opportunity of meeting with them several times to discuss the credit union system, how it is operating and so on, and they are, you know, quite knowledgeable people, have had some experience. I think they have been there quite a while in terms of being members of the board, and things appear to be in very good shape. Mr. Leonard Evans: Can the minister be more specific in terms of the number of locals that are in difficulty? I mean, do you have any statistics on this, and do you see a pattern? I gather, generally, it is not a big problem.

So I accept the minister's observation but, in actual numbers, how many are we talking about in this past fiscal year, for instance? Mr. Ernst: I want to make two observations. The first is, we have no credit unions on a watch at the present time, under watch. Secondly, I am somewhat reluctant to comment on the health of a financial institution in a public forum. I have a concern that I do not want to create any hardships for the operations of those financial institutions either and- Point of Order Mr. Leonard Evans: I want to make it clear.

I was not asking the minister to discuss the individual credit union local by name. I was simply talking about asking for statistics, you know, like, do we have five that are in trouble this year, compared to three last year or two last year, or whatever. I was not asking the minister to divulge any detail on any specific credit union. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable member for Brandon East does not have a point of order. It is a clarification. *** Mr.

Ernst: Again, my concern is that I do not want to cast any shadow of any doubt upon any financial institution, because one branch bank, for instance, which does not make money for their parent corporation and closes up does not reflect unnecessarily on the overall health of a bank. When you have individual credit unions, whether you name them or not, and you are saying they are in trouble, then it starts to reflect on them. I just have a concern that I do not want to cause any concern in the mind of the depositing public that their money is at risk if they deposit it in a credit union. It is not. Mr.

Leonard Evans: Mr. Chairman, so the minister does not want to give us any statistics on this. I see him looking at a document. It is possible it is on a particular page, but it would seem to me that that type of information is available on banks.

1060 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 1995 I would have thought that the federal government, which is responsible for the banking system under the Bank Act, would have reports indicating the number of branches that had problems without indicating which town or which area or the name of the company, so that there would be some data on this aspect of branch banking, for example, because the fact is, if you do have branch banks, let us say in one-industry towns, and if it is a mining town and the mine goes bust, then the bank does not do very well.

I am using one specific type of example, but there are other examples you could use as well. Perhaps the minister has some data that he would like to share with us. *

(1200) Mr. Ernst: As I indicated to the member earlier, we have no credit unions under our watch at the present time. In other words, there is no supervision or overview other than the normal run-of-the-mill thing that would apply to every credit union. I suppose one might construe from that that they are all healthy. That is your choice to make that decision or not. I can give you a little bit of information, though, in terms of the overall operations of the system. Total assets in 1992 were $3.3 billion and that grew to $3.5 billion in 1993. Total deposits in '93 were $3.3 billion over $3.1 billion in '92.

Total loans went from $2.4 billion in '92 up to $2.6 billion. In '92, there were 334,000 members and in '93 that grew to 341,000. There are in both years 77 credit unions with a total of 162 locations. That is for the credit union side. For the caisse populaire side, they grew from $341 million in total assets in '92 to $355 million in 1993. Total deposits went from $317 million to $333 million. Total loans increased from $265 million to $281 million. Membership went from 33,508 up to 35,607. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The hour being 12 noon, committee rise. EDUCATION AND TRAINING *

(1000) Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This morning we will be in the

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255. We will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training. When the committee last met we had been considering item l. (f)(

l) on page 37 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Chair, we are looking at Management Information Services still, and I think at the end of last time my colleague from Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) was raising a number of issues about a line that is to come later.

I want to go back to the questions I was asking about the relationship between Student Information Services and Management Information Services and to ask the minister whether she could give us an idea that when and if the Student Information Services is on-line and running, what will be different about Management Information Services? Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Chairman, the MIS concept in the whole evolution of communications and collection and storage and retrieval of data is an old concept still being used, but it is becoming outdated in most organizations.

So as society and organizations that utilize information systems move away from that concept and more into the current technologies to the new innovative technologies, of course, we are moving along with that as well. We may even some day see the name of the branch changing to reflect the new order of things, but the role is to be responsible for all aspects of information technology in order to allow managers to use all available information, software, things like that, as well as being able to access information from a wide variety of sources, Internet, schools, school divisions, and to

June 8, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1061 have that on a network that can be accessed and utilized without having to go through a whole series of separate communications to compile it all. So it will be swifter, and it will be more encompassing. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, what I am getting at is, how will the role of this

section of the department change if and when Student Information Services becomes workable? What will change about the purpose of this section, and given the information the minister just added in her last response, it seems to me also that MERLIN will be taking over some of the responsibilities as outlined by this department, that is, technology, advising the selection and use of hardware and software, that sort of thing. So we are looking, presumably in these Estimates, at both of those, MERLIN and the EIS systems being up and running by the end of this next fiscal year, so how should we expect that this department will change in the next fiscal year? *

(1010) Mrs. Mcintosh: Not just in the technical things but in the purpose and the way in which information is used. I am just going to do two things here. I have a sheet that staff has handed me that might be of interest to the member, and I will pass that over. If she would like to, we could maybe-and I will give another one for the others that are here. Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Honourable minister, would you wish to table this? Mrs. Mcintosh: Sure, we could table it. I thought it just might be useful for the member. Mr.

Assistant Deputy Chairperson: For the record, the minister will table, and the Clerk will distribute. Mrs. Mcintosh: And the heading at the top of that, it says MIS Relationship with other Organizations. It is a very simple little sheet. In answer to the member's question, how will the role change in terms of how will we use all this new way of gathering information, I give one example that kind of sums up the types of things that we will see happening. It used to be that MIS would scan all the exam sheets, for example. But with this kind of technology, the local areas will be able to do that.

So you will see more of a decentralization with the central people training and preparing and assisting the local-area people in how to do some of the functions that were previously done centrally. So it will lead to more ability to work at the local level, and MIS, you will find, will be involved in training and preparing arid assisting local authorities with assuming some of those tasks which will now be easier for them to assume. Right now, a lot of the stuff is done centrally because it is awkward and inconvenient to do it any other way. Ms. Friesen: Yes, this table is helpful.

What was concerning me is that we are adding MERLIN. We are adding the EIS or have been adding EIS for some time, and, yet, I know that the budget for this line, for Management Information Services, has remained pretty stable for about the last three or four years. It has been approximately around $1 million, and I do not see it diminishing. I see material and additions being made which seem, at least in the short sentences that are given in both annual reports and in the Estimates, there seems to be overlap.

Anyway, those are the reasons for my question, and I will have a look at this, and we will have a chance to come back to it at 16.1 (c). I wanted to ask about the Internet, to ask whether the Department of Education had a box on the Internet, whether it was providing information to others through the Internet. I see from the chart that it does enable · others to use the Internet, that is, to have access to other data, but does the department, as some departments in the Manitoba government do, have its own box there. Mrs.

Mcintosh: Yes, just checking with staff , the way we get on to the Internet is-Internet through the School Programs division which has now moved to MERLIN, through that, we have an agreement with the University ofManitoba, and the University of Manitoba provides us with an Internet server, and it is called MINET, and

1062 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 1995 the department can use that through the University of Manitoba The University ofManitoba is very interested in this kind of liaison, so we can utilize Internet through that vehicle. Ms. Friesen: That was not exactly what I was getting at. I assumed, as most people do, you can use the Internet through the U ofM, although it does raise the issue of who is paying for that. The U of M is now charging people for that service in ways that it was not last year, and I wonder where that is reflected in the department. But that was not what I was going to ask. My question is, is there-for example, does the department have an E-mail address? Is there a

section on the Internet where people can speak to the department and summon up information from the department? What are you putting into the Internet that people can access? The example I might give is, I believe, the Department of Natural Resources. I know Culture, Heritage and Citizenship has one that was recently reported in the paper, that dealt with immigration issues. So where is the Department of Education taking out material through the Internet to any citizen in Manitoba? Mrs.

Mcintosh: We operate somewhat differently from all of the other government departments because our department does not utilize the Manitoba government server. We do, from that, take labour market analysis, but that is all, so we will get a labour market analysis report from the Manitoba government server, but other than that, we have our own MB service and that is the MINET that I mentioned earlier. That is specialized to the department and the schools out in the field. On that, we do not pay an annual fee. We have a subscription. We pay a fee-for-service which is much less costly than what the public uses.

I do not have an exact figure here, but it comes in a lot less expensive than what the public might pay for that type of service. We do have an E-mail number and it is, the person's name, then MINET.M.CANADA. * (1 020) The other question about how it is used, what information people can access, right at the moment from the department there is not a lot they can access right now because we had the pilot going last year.

Schools have a fair amount of information on that and we anticipate having things like blueprint information, that type of information available for people to draw out, and MERLIN will be -giving us assistance. That is one of the ways in which MERLIN will be assisting the whole education realm in terms of helping us set up things for this. There are about 15 0 staff on that MINET service right now, so it is beginning to bloom. Ms. Friesen: Could the minister tell me what the cost of the subscription is, and is it on this line or should we be looking at another line for the cost? Is it included in this? Mrs.

Mcintosh: The information for all of this sits on the MERLIN line, and we do have a small piece that we pay as a department all based on the time that we use on the equipment. All the staff people who are on it will bill their time or identify their usage individually and that will go through their own branch, so we do not have it here. It will show on the MERLIN line that we do have some direct amount that we pay, but by and large, if it is going through the branches and through school divisions, school divisions will pay directly. It goes through the Manitoba Textbook Bureau, all of the billings.

They do not come through the department. They go through the Manitoba Textbook Bureau and they pay direct to the university. So school divisions will pay but they pay the Textbook Bureau. It goes through there to the university. We do have some direct costs which will come up on the MERLIN line. It is not a large amount for that specific, direct central function but each staff

June 8, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1063 member will identify their usage through their own branches. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, as I understand it MERLIN pays the university, for what? Could the minister identify what that bill is from the university to MERLIN? What does it list? Mrs. Mcintosh: There are some fixed costs that will come with MERLIN, and I do not have the exact figure here today, but we will get them when we get to the MERLIN line. Without being held to this figure, I will tell you it is in around the $30,000 mark, give or take. That is a very approxima te ballpark figure.

We will get the exact number when the MERLIN people are here. Those fixed costs that we pay will give us the benefit of a lesser rate, which is ultimately a cost saving to us in terms of use of all of this technology. Ms. Friesen: I recognize these are approximate costs. MERLIN is then billed by the Manitoba Textbook Bureau on behalf of all the divisions within the Manitoba Education department. Mrs. Mcintosh: MERLIN sets up the agreement that school divisions and-the Textbook Bureau is the place where divisions will send their cheques. The Textbook Bureau then will forward it to the university.

So MERLIN is like a broker. I do not know if that is the correct term, but in my mind, that is how I envision the function. They will bring the parties together, help them develop an agreement, but then the money will go from the school division to the Textbook Bureau to the university. Ms. Friesen: I understand that. So that is dealing with the agencies outside the department. What I am looking at, if you remember in the beginning, was how is this division going to change?

How should we anticipate the budget of this department changing as a result of adding MERLIN and having a student inf ormation system that is on- line and running. The use of the Internet and the expertise of this department, it seems to me-and I accept the training aspects for a year. What is going to change as a result of those presumably two new, able, hi-tech, dedica ted agencies? They seem to be dedicating themselves to areas that have been here before. Mrs. Mcintosh: This was never a function previously of MIS. It was with the School Programs division and transferred over to MERLIN.

That is a new entity to deal with these kinds of emerging capabilities. The Internet has only been around for about a year on a pilot basis, so this is still a relatively new-it is in its inf ancy. * (1 030) Ms. Friesen: The minister referred to a pilot project on the Internet, and I assume that was done through this section? Mrs. Mcintosh: It was done through the School Programs division. Ms. Friesen: Maybe I could give notice to the minister then that I would like to ask about that pilot project and if there is an evaluation of it, if it could be tabled when we come to the School Programs division.

I wanted to continue then to ask about the future of this division of this

section of the department. The minister indicated that there would be, since there are new technologies -! forget how it was expressed. Does the minister anticipa te any change in the focus of this division or in the kinds of activities that it is involved in at the moment, will there be any changes in the MIS? Mrs. Mcintosh: The short answer to her question is yes. A little detail surrounding that, just looking at the history of what has been happening in the last half decade, five years ago there was no network at all in the departmen t, there were about 70, 75 PCs now.

There now is a network that is department wide, it has about 500 PCs in it. Most of that growth has come on stream in the latter part of that five-year period. It is really growing. What the functions will do, we will be going from scanning and direct service into preparing those in the field to be able to do those functions themselves. An

1064 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 1995 analogy I could maybe use that puts it in terms that are layman-type terms would be that, prior to this, we used to do the fishing for people and now we are going to give them the equipment and teach them how to fish. That kind of switch in assistance. Ms. Friesen: Are we now speaking, when the minister says "them," are we still speaking within the department? Are we expanding the department's computer literacy? We are not talking about the scanning of materials for school divisions or school programs or that kind of thing? Mrs.

Mcintosh: Yes, the role of the MIS is departmental. Ms. Friesen: Will the MIS still continue to collect the information on the independent study programs? Mrs. Mcintosh: That flow of communication will not change, in essence, because we provide the services to Winkler, not to the independent study. That is the way it was and that is the way it will continue to be. Ms. Friesen: The service to Workforce 2000, could the minister describe how this

section of the department interrelates with Workforce 2000? What kind of information is collected, what accessibility can be provided through information services to Workforce 2000? Mrs. Mcintosh: MIS is not the information gatherer now on any of these things. They have worked with Workforce 2000 to help them develop their own data base, but it does not have its own data base for Workforce 2000. Ms. Friesen: In the Workforce 2000 area, what kind of assistance has the department rendered in the past year? Mrs. Mcintosh: MIS will help with Workforce 2000.

They will help participating companies, for example, in an analytical capacity to-not the companies, I am sorry-help the Workforce 2000 staff who are working with companies-! beg your pardon, that is a big difference there-they will work with them in an analytical capacity to make sure that their systems are accurate in terms of commitments and timing and those types of things. So it is, again, not doing the work for them but giving them systems advice, systems assistance. * (10 40) Ms.

Friesen: The schoolnet and the department, I assume part of that can be dealt with under School Programs, but I want to look at it from a policy and planning issue, which I assume would remain with this

section of the department, Management Information Services. What I am ·interested in is, does the department have representation on government-wide committees dealing with the Internet, and does this

section of the department deal with that or is it another? Secondly, what is the connection of the department to the national-! would not call them planning-but certainly the national co-operative organizations dealing with schoolnet? Is there a connection there and where does it come in the department? Mrs. Mcintosh: It was through the programs division. It is now through MERLIN. Those things are still going on but in a different entity. Ms. Friesen: Will the CEO of MERLIN be assisting the minister later on in Estimates? Mrs. Mcintosh: Yes, he will be when we get to the MERLIN line. We will have him here.

He will have detailed information that I do not have at my fingertips at this point, and will be able to assist us. Ms. Friesen: I wanted to look at the expenditures in this department and the increase under Equipment Rental from 13 2 to 151. Mrs. Mcintosh: Two basic reasons, Mr. Chairman. One is that we consolidated office space and added some more space that was lacking. The other is that the telecommunications network has grown and we have been adding components so that we can have the electronic communications between various bodies. Mr. Assistant Deputy Chairperson: Item l. (

f) Management Inf ormation Services

(1) Salaries and -

June 8, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1065 Employee Benefits $597 ,000-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $537, 900-pass. 2. School Programs (

a) Division Administration

(1) Salary and Employee Benefits $244, 100. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, the two professional and one managerial people in this department, I wonder if the minister could outline the three jobs that exist there, the job descriptions and how they relate to each other. Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Chairman, there is an ADM, a program analyst, a financial co-ordinator and two secretaries. Ms. Friesen: Could the minister indicate what the work of the two analysts has been over the past year? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr.

Chairman, the program analysts have been responsible for the co-ordination of the renewing education, the achievements there, the co ordination of the writing of documents in that regard. The financial co-ordinator has been responsible for all financial activities across the division and realigning all the financial activities for the entire division. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I noticed in one of the renewal documents that the government anticipated a video. I wonder if the minister could tell us whether that work has been completed or whether it is included in the Estimates here. Mrs.

Mcintosh: Yes, they have been able to acquire some preprepared videos, preprepared by ASCD, and additional videos are going to be purchased as well to support parental involvement, so some of the videos are available now. * (1 050) Available right now is a video called Involving Parents in Education, which is a 30-minute video, and that has been produced by the Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development, the ASCD. Ms. Friesen: I am not familiar with that organization. Could the minister tell me where it is located and when this video was made and what the price of it was? Mrs.

Mcintosh: We do not have the cost of the video here right now, but it was produced by the association which is called the Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development, which is an international organization, a professional organization, international in scope. There is a Manitoba affiliate. I do not have the address, but this particular video has five strategies for parents, teachers, administrators and school boards to work together, indicating how they can work together in constructive, positive and meaningful ways.

So they have strategies under there, like help parents at parenting, developing better ways to communicate, how to increase parent volunteer support, how to help students learn at home, and how to involve parents in decision making and policy making. We do have four copies of the video. As I say, this is a professional organization. It is international in scope, and there is a Manitoba affiliate. We can get the cost of the video for you later. We do not know the exact price offhand without looking it up. Ms. Friesen: Is it possible to see a copy of the video? Mrs.

Mcintosh: There is a copy available, and we would be very pleased to provide it if you would like to see it. Ms. Friesen: Is that through the library or through the department? Mrs. Mcintosh: Through the library. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman-[interjection] Yes, understand, it is through the departmental library. How would a citizen have access to this, and how is the department planning to distribute it, other than on request? Mrs. Mcintosh: All parent groups can have access to the video through the library, if there are copies still available.

If they all ask for it at the same time, they may have to wait a tum, but I think we have got four copies available so that many could be out at any one time.

1066 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 1995 Ms. Friesen: Does the department plan to purchase other videos, or does it intend to create any videos of its own to accompany the changes to education curriculum? Mrs. Mcintosh: We have the beginnings. We are developing a bibliography for starters, as we begin to acquire more material. Our intention is to acquire more material for community members, parents, teachers, all those involved with the education of a child, to be able to peruse, to study, to view, to discuss, in groups or individually.

We will be looking at purchasing additional material, a preference being to purchase, if possible, as opposed to producing our own simply because of cost considerations. If there is material that is preprepared, that is screened, and seems to be suitable, then, of course, we would acquire that as opposed to producing our own.

Production of our own is not precluded, but why reinvent the wheel if something good is already there, so we will be looking to acquire print material, video material, audio material, to develop a reference library for access by parental groups, community groups, teaching groups, groups that are composed of all of those people, with a bibliography that will give them an indication of what is available for reference material to expand their base of knowledge. Ms.

Friesen: I understand and support the idea of not reinventing the wheel in areas like this, where there is some commonality, but it seems to me the other side of the coin is that Manitoba has some circumstances, particularly multicultural schools and particularly urban aboriginal schools where there are conditions here that might enable us to produce materials for other people. Perhaps the minister would want to do it in a market sense, or the alternative, of course, being a co-operative sense, working with other agencies.

I wondered if the Western Canadian Protocol, for example, or the co-operation across the West, and I would think Alberta and Saskatchewan, particularly, would have interests in the kinds of conditions which exist for large parts of Winnipeg, for example. Is the department looking at that from an aspect of longer range planning? Mrs.

Mcintosh: I am actually quite excited about some of the things that are starting to be done in this area, because I believe the more information you can make available to members of society who are concerned about education, be they parents, community representatives or those who actually work in the schools, the better off we are going to be. I see some of the initiatives going on in the department. I really want to just pause and compliment the staff for some of these. *

(1100) There has been a document prepared for aboriginal parents prepared by the department staff, and they also have a brochure that they have put together on how parents could help children, again, both of these targeted for aboriginal communities in the city. They are working, as well, with the western consortium to see if we can produce some common projects. That is still at the discussion stage so we do not have specific outcomes there that we can identify at this time, but those discussions have begun.

Is there some common thing that we could produce that would be of benefit to parents and educators and community members who are interested in the success of the schooling system? As well as having done those two that I have just identified which are specifically geared to aboriginal parents, the department has also produced a language learning handbook for parents which is produced currently in seven languages, and, again, that was done by department staff. These types of initiatives are underway, and I commend the staff for the work that they have done on them.

I also indicate to the member that this is just the beginning of the building of a reference library, and, in answer to one portion of her question, would we be producing our own, I say, the two-part answer: Wherever we can acquire preprepared existing material that answers the needs we have, we will acquire it that way because it is less costly, but where we cannot do that, then we will be examining doing our own producing to tailor-make material if it is not already in existence and cannot be acquired elsewhere.

June 8, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1067 I am pleased and encouraged by the support that I heard in the words you used here for us doing that, if we need to, because it could cost money, and so often people will say, well, you know, government has produced this video and it is costly and it is, you know, just a public relations exercise, or whatever. I do not know what criticisms could come up, but inherent in the question you asked, I heard some support for the need to have material that would bring parents in, and I appreciate that. So, if we need to, we would produce our own.

We hope that we could avoid that expense if we can find preprepared material, but we will be doing both, if it is needed, to make the whole reference library as full and complete as it needs to be to meet our needs. Ms. Friesen: I think the handbook for native parents was completed two years ago. I wonder if the department could tell us how many copies have been distributed, and what the brochure was that was listed-I think the minister indicated it was a separate item. Was that completed this past year? How different is it from the original? Mrs.

Mcintosh : The brochure has just been completed this year, and I will-it, first of all, is more user-friendly in that it is quite easy to read, and it is concise. The information has been, sort of , concentrated and put down into fewer sentences, less verbiage-not that the other had excess verbiage, but they have tried to streamline it for easy use, and it deals specifically with how parents can help children at home. Staff indicates to me that we have distributed some 3,000 books and some 5,000 brochures at this point and they seem to be popular with those who are reading them. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Chair, could the minister indicate how those are distributed, the 3,000 to 5,000? Are they sent to school divisions? Are they sent to individual schools? Have the bulk of them been distributed in the city or are they going to reserve communities or to non Status communities outside the city? Mrs. Mcintosh: They are distributed across the province and they are targeted or distributed mostly to those communities that have high aboriginal populations. They go both to schools and to parent groups directly. Ms.

Friesen: So, in the past year, what the department has done is to prepare a simpler version of an existing booklet and to begin discussions with the western consortium. This is in terms of parental connections, parental support in aboriginal education. Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr.

Chairman, in terms of the things that are being done for parents, in addition to updating existing materials and starting discussions with the western consortium, we have also embarked upon a number of enterprises that are not just reading or viewing but active participation in terms of parental involvement, parental education, providing parental support and support to community members. We have nine regional parental involvement workshops currently underway.

They started back in April; they should be finished at the end of this month, and in those we have 34 divisions and 71 school teams participating and they are taking place in Winnipeg certainly, but also in Winkler and Thompson and Portage Ia Prairie, Brandon, Cranberry Portage, Dauphin, Gimli, Morris.

So those areas -and I do not have a listing with me right now as to which have already participated, which are complete and which are yet to come-but they are underway and I believe they are about two-thirds of the way through, and they will be finished at the end of the month. * (1 1 10) Those are really good regional workshops because they bring parents and community members right into the whole milieu of education with trained administrators, with parents and school teams and trained administrators all working together in these settings, and they focus on increasing the communication between parents and schools and implementing parental involvement activities in the schools.

So they focus right in on teamwork and partnership, inteijurisdictional so to speak, instead of having parents over here and educators over here and another group over there, they are together as one team. These are all important people in the lives of the

1068 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 8, 1995 student and it is, I believe, critical that they come together and understand each other's influence on that child that they service. So that is underway. Of course, we have those two documents on New Directions, advisory councils and school, that is the guidelines which are preprinted. I think the member has copies of those. We have documents for Advisory Council for School Leadership and for Partners in Education, Renewing Education: New Directions, Parents and Schools.

In terms of this particular initiative with the nine regional parental involvement workshops, we have identified a half staff year that will provide a focus and the required departmental expertise for this initiative which will take full effect in the fall, in all likelihood. So we will see this kind of initiative, come September, really taking off. We have actually assigned a half time person just for that function. I also want to indicate to you, in terms of your desire for information on aboriginals, that through student support grants we support parental involvement in some 60 schools and some 24 divisions.

These 24 divisions are ones with high aboriginal populations and high multicultural populations. Those student support grants to those 24 divisions, to those 60 schools will enable them to receive funds which can involve parents in the education of their children.

Again, the same focus that I indicated, when we talked about the regional meetings, will be a focus that is involved here, where parents are included, where parents have an opportunity to understand what is going on in the schools, to opt into being a strength and a support for those who are delivering education and where educators have an ability to interact with those who have the largest influence on the child which is those who are involved with the child at home either as parents or guardians or fosters. I will just read some ofthe other program headings.

The home-school programs, the early schools language development programs, the early literacy programs, the home math programs, the family and the inter generational literacy program, which is an interesting one, because so many people feel we have lost that intergenerational ability. One of the things our children suffer from is the lack of having grandparents and great aunts and great uncles around them. Certainly, in some of the ethnic communities and some of the aboriginal communities that extended family is very much a factor.

So we have intergenerational literacy programs which, again, will do a great number of things in helping to prepare students for school success. We have parent education programs, I have listed a few. We have parent volunteer and mentor programs. Mentoring and those types of activities, harkening back to the multigenerational thing, are ways in which we can utilize people who have a sincere and genuine interest in the educational success of students. Mentorship programs are very important.

We feel it is important that we do an outreach to them, provide them with back up materials so that they in tum-sort of training the trainer type things. We have governance and advocacy programs to help people understand how decisions are made and where the lines of authority flow, and those types of things. We have a number of initiatives underway that we believe will be extremely beneficial. We work with native agencies, community parent councils, all these different groups that have, to date, held some workshops in some 40 schools in the year that we are just ending now on these types of things.

I do not know if that gives you an overview or if you would like further detail, but I leave that with you at this time. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chairman, I understand that the minister has met recently with aboriginal people in Winnipeg who are interested in forming a separate school division. I wonder if the minister could give us a sense of where the government is going with this one and whether the minister plans further meetings. Mrs. Mcintosh: Yes, I had a meeting with Bill Sanderson of the Winnipeg school division board who asked to see me and came to see me with an individual

June 8, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1069 who was part of the aboriginal community, and I am sorry that I forget her name at the ·moment. Their interest and request was that a separate aboriginal school division be set up along the lines of the French school board governance. My reply to them is that I really do not know that would answer the need they were trying to address, their concern being, of course, that aboriginal students should have access to cultural awareness and traditions and history and so on.

My indication to them was that local school boards have the ability to deliver services that can address those specified needs and that indeed Winnipeg No. 1 in setting up the Children of the Earth school, for example, was in fact setting up alternative schools, alternative education within the public system that would do what I felt to be very much the same thing that a separate school board with separate governance would deliver.

I expressed concern about the cost of running parallel systems and indicated that the French school board governance, while it is indeed addressing a particular cultural group, is linguistically based and there are constitutional factors that are at play in the delivery of French language education to the

section 23 parents. So the aboriginal needs I felt fit into a different category, and the governance situation also came under a different jurisdictional commentary. Having said that, however, Mr. Sanderson asked if he could continue talking with me, and of course l absolutely indicated that most definitely I am quite willing to meet with and talk to any person, individual or group that has a keen interest in meeting specific needs of students.

Having indicated my reservations about the effectiveness of that kind of governance versus the ability of school divisions to already deliver alternative schools that would meet those needs, I nonetheless am willing to explore the needs that he would like to bring forward to see if there is anything that government should be doing to try and address those needs over and above what local school boards are able to deliver. * (1 120) My personal feeling at this point is that the school boards are able to deliver services to meet those needs.

Never, however, would I ever tum anyone away who wished to further explore dimensions and depths within those issues that they live with, that I do not live with, because if they can enlighten me and build my awareness then I can only benefit from that as minister. The more I grow and learn, the more I may be able to help divisions try to address needs that may in truth be already met or may in truth be still in need of further meeting. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Chair, does the minister plan on a series of meetings on the aboriginal school division over the next year, or is it going to be by request? Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr.

Chairperson, I indicated to Mr. Sanderson that he is free to give me a call at any time and if I have free time in my

schedule I would be delighted to sit and talk to him, and I would be. I would be delighted to sit and talk with any number of people, and have been doing so with everybody I can fit into my schedule. I most enjoy those meetings. I have met with several individual trustees from various divisions. I have met with a couple of individual boards to date and have indicated my will ingness to meet with other boards, if they would like to come in. I always find, when those boards and individual trustees leave, that I have learned someth

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-1-12b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 1st hansardpdf 12b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	13af372524614707a43abc6968fb6323aedac45c

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